Commons Sitting of 19 May 1899

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PRIVATE BILLS [Lords].
  (No Standing Orders not previously in quire(into applicable.)
  MR. SPEAKER MR. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders not previously inquired into are applicable, viz.:

  WISHAW WATER. BILL [Lords].
  Ordered, That the Bill he read a second time.

  PRIVATE BILLS [Lords].
  (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with.)
  SPEAKER SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, viz.:—

  DUNDEE GAS, TRAMWAYS, AND EXTENSION BILL [Lords]
  changed to—
  DUNDEE GAS, STREET IMPROVEMENTS, AND TRAMWAYS BILL [Lords].
  Ordered, That the Bill he read a second time.

  PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS.
  (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with,)
  MR. SPEAKER MR. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from One of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which ate applicable thereto have been complied with, viz.—

  HOUSE OF THE WORK1NG CLASSES PROVISIONAL ORDER (BORROW-STOUNNESS) BILL.
  Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time upon Wednesday, 31st May.
  BURLEY-IN-WHARFEDALE URBAN DISTRICT WATER BILL.
  Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
  NUNEATON AND CHILVERS COTON URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL WATER BILL.
  Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
  LEITH HARBOUR AND DOCKS BILL (Queen's consent signified).
  Read the third time, and passed.
  BELFAST CORPORATION BILL.
  As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
  CAMBRIDGE UNIVERSITY AND TOWN (GAS BILL [Lords].
  As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
  GLASTONBURY WATER BILL [Lords].
  As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
  QUEEN'S FERRY BRIDGE BILL, [Lords].
  As amended, considered; Amendments made; Bill to he read the third time.
  SOUTH EASTERN AND LONDON, CHATHAM, AND DOVER RAILWAY COMPANIES (NEW LINES) BILL.
  As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
  PRIVATE BILLS.
  Ordered, That Standing Orders:39, 129 and 230 be suspended, and that the time for depositing Petitions and Memorials against Private Bills, or against any Bill to confirm any Provisional Order or Provisional Certificate, and for depositing duplicates of any documents relating to any Bill to confirm any Provisional Order or Provisional Certificate, be extended to the first day on which the House shall sit after the recess.—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
  Read the third time, and passed.
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
  As amended, considered; to be read the third time upon Wednesday, 31st May.
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 5) BILL.
  As amended, considered; to be read the third time upon Wednesday, 31st May.
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 6) BILL.
  As amended, considered; to be read the third time upon Wednesday, 31st May.
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 8) BILL.
  As amended, considered; to be read the third time upon Wednesday,:31st May.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDERS (HOUSING OF WORKING CLASSES) (No. 2).
  Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board for Ireland relating to Waterford and Thurles, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland and Mr. Solicitor-General for Ireland.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 14).
  Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board relating to Isle of Thanet (Rural), Ramsgate, Reading, and Rhyl, ordered to be brought in by Mr. T. W. Russell and Mr. Chaplin.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDERS (HOUSING OF WORKING CLASSES) (No. 2) BILL.
  "To confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board for Ireland relating to Waterford and Thurles, "presented, and read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 219].
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 14) BILL.
  "To confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board relating to Isle of Thanet (Rural), Ramsgate, Reading, and Rhyl," presented, and read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to he printed. [Bill 220.]
PETITIONS.
  ADULTERATION (FOOD PRODUCTS) BILL.
  Petition from Argyll, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  BOILERS INSPECTION AND REGISTRATION BILL.
  Petitions against;—From Birmingham;—and, Middlesbrough (two); to lie upon the Table.
  BOROUGH FUNDS ACT, 1872.
  Petition from West Ham, for alteration of Law; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION OF CHILDREN BILL.
  Petition from Kingston-upon-Hull, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION OF CHILDREN BILL AND EDUCATION (SCHOOL ATTENDANCE) (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Arbroath, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  FOREIGN SUGAR.
  Petition from Greenock, for imposition of countervailing duties; to lie upon the Table.
  GROUND RENTS (TAXATION BY LOCAL AUTHORITIES).
  Petitions in favour;—From East Cowes;—Edmonton;—Penmaemnawr;—Enfield;—Connah's Quay;—Portsea Island; — Bolton; — Tunstead;—Great Grimsby;—Wandsworth; —Soothill Upper;—Hebden;—South Lambeth;— Menai Bridge;—St. Thomas;—Ripley;— Sunderland;—Cainscross;— Fleetwood; Manchester;—Vectis Building Society; —Danden Industrial Co-operative Society, Limited;—Royal Arsenal Co-operative Society, Limited;—Pwllheli—and, Armfield Plain; to lie upon the Table.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petitions in favour;— From Scottish Poor Law Medical Officers' Association; —and Argyll; to lie upon the Table.
  LONDON GOVERNMENT BILL.
  Petition from St. Mary, Newington, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
  MERCHANDISE MARKS ACT (1887) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Petition from Birmingham, in favour; to lie upon the Table.

  MINES (EIGHT HOURS) BILL
  Petitions in favour;— From Wet Earth;—Pit Clay Cross (No. 4:—Kinlet;— Snibston (No. 2)— Rawden;— Grange

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  Moor; and Shirebrook Collieries: to lie upon the Table.

  NATIONAL OLD AGE PENSIONS
  Petition from West Ham, in Favour; to lie upon the Table.
  RATING OF MACHINERY BILL.
  Two Petitions from Easington, against; to lie upon the Table.
  RATING OF MACHINERY BILL.
  Petition from Birmingham, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
  ROMAN CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY IN IRELAND.
  Petitions against establishment,—From Dundee;— and, Jedburgh; to lie upon the Table.
  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS ON SUNDAY BILL.
  Petition from Ilmington, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  SMALL HOUSES (ACQUISITION OF OWNERSHIP) BILL.
  Petition from Argyll, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  TEINDS (SCOTLAND) BILL
  Petition from Argyll, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  TELEGRAPHS (TELEPHONIC COMMUNICATION &c.) BILL.
  Petition from Birmingham, against; to lie upon the Table.
  TELEGRAPHS (TELEPHONIC COMMUNICATION, &c) BILL.
  Petition from Irvine, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
  TOWN COUNCILS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petitions in favour;— From Pollokshaws;—and, Cromarty; to lie upon the Table.
  WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION ACT (1897) AMENDMENT (No. 2) BILL.
  Petition from Birmingham, against: to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, &c.
  EDUCATION DEPARTMENT (GENERAL REPORTS).
  Copy presented,—of General Report for the year 1898 by the Chief Inspector of the South Western Division [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  Copies presented,—of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 2263 to 2264 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  INLAND REVENUE (PROSECUTIONS UNDER GAME LAWS).
  Return presented,—relative thereto [Ordered 23rd March; Mr. William Redmond]; to lie upon the Table.
  Paper laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House:—

  PUBLIC RECORDS (ADMIRALTY).
  Copy of Fifth Schedule containing a List and Particulars of Classes of Documents which have been removed from the Office of the Commissioners for executing the office of Lord High Admiral of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and deposited in the Public Record Office but which are not considered of sufficient public value to justify their preservation therein [by Act].
  EAST INDIA (FINANCIAL STATEMENT, 1899–1900).
  Address for "Copy of the Indian Financial Statement for 1899–1900, and of the Proceedings of the Legislative Council of the Governor General thereon."—(Sir Henry Fowler.)
  MASTERS, MATES, ENGINEERS (SUSPENSION, &c., OF CERTIFICATES).
  Return ordered, "showing all Suspensions and Cancellations of Certificates of Masters, Mates, or Engineers, under Clause 242 of The Merchant Shipping Act, 1854, or Clause 469 of The Merchant Shipping Act of 1894, Ordered by the Board of Trade since the year 1887, showing in each case (1) the nature of the offence of which such person had been convicted, and (2) whether the Certificate was cancelled or suspended, and if suspended, for how long."—(Mr. Gibson Bowles.)
  METROPOLITAN WATER COMPANIES BILL.
  Lords Amendments to be considered forthwith; considered, and agreed to.
QUESTIONS.

  HIGHLAND LADS AND THE NAVY.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that of the 785 scholars who attended classes in navigation throughout Scotland during the year 1897–8, under the Evening School Code, as many as 691 were scholars of the crofting comities of Argyll, Caithness, Inverness, Orkney and Shetland, and Ross and Cromarty, 247 coming from Ross-shire alone. And, in view of this proof of the desire of Highland youths to render themselves efficient in navigation, will he consider the expediency of giving them better facilities than at present exist for joining Her Majesty's Navy.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. W. E. MACARTNEY,): The facilities for entry in the Navy in Scotland are the same as elsewhere. Buys can be entered by the station officer at any coastguard station, by the marine recruiting officer at Glasgow, by the officers commanding the coastguard ships at Greenock and Queensferry, and the naval reserve drill ships at Inverness, Aberdeen, Leith and Dundee. Success has not attended the visits of the seagoing training ships to the North, but further visits will be made from time to time, as may be considered desirable.
  MR. WEIR: Will the right honourable Gentleman allow a training ship to visit Stornoway during the summer and remain there a few days instead of a few hours?
  MR. MACARTNEY: I can add nothing to my answer.

  COMPULSORY RETIEMENT—INDIAN COLONEL'S PAY.
  MAJOR RASCH: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether, in calculating the value of a Colonel's appointment in India on Indian pay, upon compulsory retirement under
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  the Royal Warrant of 1881, the War Office has estimated the pay of a Colonel at only 17 rupees 8 minas a month above that of a Lieutenant in the Indian Staff Corps, a Lieutenant in the Indian Service receiving 225 rupees a month, while the War Office estimate of a Colonel's pay is 243 rupees 8 minas a month. Whether he is aware that when the late General Hawley, Deputy Adjutant General at headquarters, was removed from his appointment for age in 1883, five months before his time was up, he received compensation for the full amount of the pay of his appointment notwithstanding that such pay was described in the pay warrant as inclusive of allowances excepting travelling; and, on what ground the War Office has discriminated in the method of estimating the pay of an officer of the headquarter staff and of an officer of the British service who was serving in India at the time of his compulsory retirement as a General Officer awl with a consolidated pay awl salary unconditioned of any allowances.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY of STATE FOR WAR (Mr. G. WYNDHAM,): On the introduction of compulsory retirement for age, it was decided to give compensation in respect of pay, but not of allowances. This principle was applied generally throughout the Army. In the case of India, where consolidated pay is the rule, the India Office supplied a calculation of the amount of pay which represented extinguished allowances, and on that amount no compensation was paid. In the case of the staff at the War Office, the rates of pay had come to be salaries attached to particular posts and were treated as such. In the first paragraph of the question the honourable and gallant Member has compared the nett pay of a colonel excluding the amount based on extinguished allowances with the total consolidated pay of a lieutenant.

  UNDER-AGE RECRUITS.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War if it is the practice of the War Office authorities to decline to grant a discharge to youths Who have enlisted in the Army when under age.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Queen's Regulations (1805 vi.) lay clown dint youths proved to be under 17 years of age shall

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  be discharged, and that youths between amount of extra work is thrown upon 17;old I may be discharged or retained at the discretion of the General Officer Commanding the District.
  MR. PIRIE: How does the War Office arrive at a decision that a youth is under 17 or otherwise —by his teeth, in the same Way as a horse?
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order!
  MR. WYNDHAM: In the absence of a certificate of birth the medical officer arrives at a decision to the best of his ability.
  MR. PIRIE: May I ask—
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The last question of the honourable Member was most irregular.

  BRITISH TROOPS IN SOUTH AFRICA.
  MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether any troops have been sent to South Africa since the 1st January 1899; and, if any have been sent, whether he can state their number and description.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Two battalions have been sent out to take the place of two which have left the station; and 776 warrant Officers, non commissioned officers and men have been sent out as drafts in ordinary course to relieve time expired men and to fill up other casualties.

  BRITISH CONSULS IN CHARGE OF AMERICAN INTERESTS IN SPAIN.
  MR. MALCOLM: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that considerable extra work is thrown upon Her Majesty's Consuls in Spain, and in several cases heavy expenditure is thrown upon them, owing to the duties incurred by acting, in a consular capacity for the United States: and. whether he can state for how long these duties will be performed by Her Majesty's officers, and in what winner they will be remunerated and reimbursed.
  THE UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. BRODRICK,): Her Majesty's Government are aware that a considerable
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  amount of extra work is thrown upon Her Majesty's Consuls in Spain since they have had charge of American interests, but no information has been received that these additional duties have involved expenditure. Her Majesty's Government undertook the protection of American interests in Spain at the commencement of the war, and this arrangement will continue so long as it may be convenient to the United States Government. It is usual for belligerents to place their interests in a hostile country in the hands of a friendly power, and in such cases no question of remuneration arises.

  PETITION FORM BRITISH SUBJECTS IN THE TRANSVAAL
  MR. ELLIS J. GRIFFITH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has received any communication or report from Sir Alfred Milner on the subject-matter of the petition recently despatched for presentation to Her Majesty by British subjects resident in the Transvaal; and, if so, whether he will lay upon the Table such communication or report.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN,): To the first part of the question the answer is yes. AS to the second part I must refer the honourable Member to my answer to the honourable able Member for Derby on the 21st of April.

  THE TRANSVAAL ARRESTS.
  MR. SCOTT (Lanes, Leigh): I beg; to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can now give any information as to the recent arrests in the Transvaal and as to the nature and importance of the movement in which the persons arrested were believed to be engaged.
  MR. J. CHAMERLAIN: I received last night the following telegram from Sir Alfred Milner:
  "British agent report, following are names prisoners: Richard Floyd Nicholls, 37, miner, Cornishman; George Patterson,40, Irish; both are ex-Non-Commissioned Officers British Cavalry; Charles Agar-Ellis. 27, ex-Colour Sergeant British Infantry, Englishman; John Allen Mitechell, 46, ex-Sergeant-Major Royal Horse Artillery, Englishman; Edward James Tremlett, 30, civilian, Englishman; Robert

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  Poole Hooper, 46, ex-military man, served in India and Matabeleland as Non-Commissioned Officer; Jean Pries, 40, Dane. Prisoners charged with high treason, brought before Landdrost's Court yesterday, remanded formally for fortnight."
  I have no other information, except that President Kruger stated to Mr. Greene that there was no proof that the persons arrested had been officers in the British Army, and that in any case the incident would not be allowed to disturb friendly relations. I may add that the President of the South African League has publicly repudiated, on behalf of the league, any connection, direct or indirect, with the enlistment of persons for any purpose whatever in any state or colony.

  BRITISH INDIANS IN THE TRANSVAAL.
  SIR MANCHERJEE BHOWNAGGREE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether in the forthcoming conference between Sir A. Milner and President Kruger, the British Representative will discuss questions relating to the grave disabilities imposed upon British Indian subjects by the South African Government for some years past, with the view of remedying the same; and, whether Sir A. has been furnished by the Colonial Office with specific instructions on the subject.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I have recently instructed Sir A. Milner on the subject of the British Indians in the Transvaal, and the matter will no doubt he discussed by him and President Kruger.

  LAND ORDNANCES OF CEYLON.
  MR. SCHWANN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will, as promised by him, lay upon the Table of the House the Report of the Governor of Ceylon, now in his possession, as to the working, &c. of the Land Ordnances Act of Ceylon of 1897.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I shall he happy to present papers immediately after Whitsuntide.

  FACTORIES AMENDMENT BILL
  MR. DOUGHTY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, early after
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  the Whitsuntide holidays, he will introduce the Factories Amendment Bill he was obliged to withdraw last Session, with a view of passing it into law before the end of the Session.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. JESSE COLLINGS,): The Bill to which I presume my honourable friend refers, dealt with Emergency Processes. As to the prospects of legislation on this subject there is nothing to add to the answer which the Secretary of State gave to the right honourable Member for the University of Oxford yesterday with regard to the fruit-preserving trade—one of the emergency processes.

  CATTLE INSPECTION—TUBERCULOSIS.
  MR. CHANNING: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether lie is aware that there is now no proper inspection of the carcases of imported cattle, of which about 3,000 are weekly slaughtered at Deptford and large numbers elsewhere; and whether, having regard to the large proportion of tuberculosis found to exist in cattle slaughtered and inspected for the detection of pleuro-pneumonia, he will arrange for an adequate staff to examine the carcases immediately after slaughter before removal of the offal.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. H. CHEAPLIN,): I have made inquiry as regards the foreign cattle market as Deptford, which is the only one specifically referred to in the question, and I am informed that, in addition to the inspection of the live animals by two veterinary inspectors appointed by the Board of Agriculture, there is a close inspection of the carcases. This latter inspection is carried out by all inspector specially appointed for the purpose by the Corporation of London. He devotes his whole time to his duty, and acts under the supervision of the veterinary inspector of the Corporation and the superintendent of the market understand that cases of tuberculosis in this market are extremely rare, only two having occurred in the last 12 months.
  MR. CHANNING: Am I to understand

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  that inspection is made before the animals are killed?
  MR. CHAPLIN: That is the case.

  THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE AGED AND DESERVING POOR.
  SIR. CHARLES DALRYMPLE: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention, as Chairman of the Select Committee on the Aged and Deserving Poor, has been called to the numerous paragraphs which have appeared in the Press with regard to the proceedings and deliberations of the Committee and whether the statements so made have been published with the sanction and authority of the Committee.
  MR. CHAPLIN: Yes, sir, my attention has been directed to the matters referred to, and I am very glad to reply to the question of my honourable friend, for it was my intention, at the unanimous request of my colleagues on the Committee, to have taken some means of correcting the misapprehensions to which these statements would otherwise give rise. I have to say on their behalf, in reply to the question, that none of the statements referred to are authorised; they have all been made without the knowledge or sanction of the Committee; many of them are inaccurate and misleading and they are not to be taken as representing the views and decisions of the Committee.

  NEWBLISS POSTAL ARRANGEMENTS.
  MR. MACALEESE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster-General, whether he can state why a letter addressed to the Department on 28th February last, by a resident in Newbliss, has not been replied to up to the present date; and will any notice be taken of this neglect.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. R. W. HANBURY,): The letter in question was duly acknowledged, but it was not thought necessary to give any further reply, especially as a full reply had already been given on the same subject in March, 1898.

  RESPONSIBILITY FOR TELEGRAPHIC BLUNDERS.
  MR. MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster-General, whether his attention had been directed to a case tried at the Barrow County Court on 8th May, in which John Francis Ennis, of Barrow, sued Lawrence Lawrence E. Tennant, postmaster, of Barrow, for £2 loss by error in transmission of a telegram to A. Brown, the figures 62/6 in the telegraph form handed in at the office having been changed by negligence of the officials of the telegraph department into 26/-, and thus placed in the telegram received by A. Brown; whether the postal authorities admitted the error with an expression of regret, and refunded to Mr. Ennis the amount paid for the abortive telegram, but Mr. Ennis' action against the postmaster of Barrow was defended successfully on the ground that he had sued the wrong official; whether he is aware that Mr. Ennis, on 24th April, received an official letter from the Secretary of the General Post Office, London, stating that the Department was not liable for losses sustained in consequence of the inaccurate transmission of a telegram, and on what foundation is this alleged immunity based; whether, for the guidance of the public, he will say on whom the liability devolves for losses sustained in the transmission of telegrams by the negligence of officials in the postal service; and, whether directions will lie given that actions brought against the Department in consequence of such negligence should lie defended on the merits and not on technical points.
  MR. HANBURY: Both in the Postal Guide and on all telegram forms supplied to the public is printed the condition that the Postmaster-General will not be liable for any loss or damage which may be incurred or sustained by reason or on account of any mistake or default in the transmission or delivery of a telegram. This condition is one of the regulations which have statutory force by virtue of the Telegraph Act, 1868. 1 have not complete information to show that the postmaster of Barrow defended the action on the ground alleged in the second paragraph. But, of course, the true defence is that which I have now stated.

  SGIXDA ROCK.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade, whether arrangements can be made for the erection of a beacon on Sgixda Rock, near Port of Ness, Island of Lewis.
  MR. HANBURY (for the PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE): No application for the erection of a beacon on Sgixda Rock has been received from the Northern Lighthouse Commissioners. The matter is one for the consideration, in the first instance, of those Commissioners, as the Board of Trade have no power to initiate.

  COMMISSION ON RAILWAY ACCIDENTS.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he has received a copy of a resolution which was unanimously adopted at the recent Annual Scottish Trades Union Congress, held in Dundee, urging that a practical representative from Scotland should be appointed on the Commission to inquire into Railway accidents; and, whether he will take such steps as may be necessary to accede to this request.
  MR. HANBURY (for the PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE): My right honourable friend received a copy of the resolution referred to by the honourable Member and replied that the constitution of the Royal Commission having been settled it was not possible to re-open the question. He does not propose to recommend any addition to the Commission.

  ER1TH GOODS STATION.
  MR. SCHWANN: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade, whether he is aware that the goods station at Erith is not provided with sufficient light from lamps, &c., to enable the work to be carried On with safety to the employees; and, whether lie will use his influence to have sufficient light provided for that purpose.
  MR. HANBURY (for the PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE): As my- right honourable friend stated on the 16th instant, the Board of Trade have been in communication with the Company on the subject, and a copy of their reply was sent yesterday to the honourable Member. The Company state that the matter will have their careful consideration and that.
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  although they have no record of an accident at Erith, any improvement that may be found desirable owing to the increased traffic at that station will be carried out.

  IMMATURE FISH
  MR. DOUGHTY: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether, early after the Whitsuntide holidays, he will introduce the Bill for preventing the sale of immature fish, which has been passed ill the House of Lords unanimously in four successive Sessions, and on three occasions as a Government Departmental and secure for it such precedence as shall ensure it passing into law.
  MR. HANBURY (for the PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE): I am not in a position to make any announcement on the part of my right honourable friend.

  TRAINING OF FEEBLE-MENDED CHILDREN.
  MR. YOXALL: I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education if he can now state when the Bill for the further provision of special training for feeble-minded children is to he introduced.
  THE VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE COMMITTEE OF COUNCIL ON EDUCATION (Sir. J. GORST,): I can only repeat what I said the other day in answer to a similar question, the Bill referred to is in an advanced state of preparation; but I am unable to say when it will be introduced.

  IRISH PIG TRADE WITH GREAT BRITAIN.
  MR. MACALEESE: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he will consider the possibility Of now removing all restrictions upon the free passage of swine between Great Britain and Ireland; and whether he hopes to be in a position at an early date to make an announcement to this effect.
  THE VICE-CHAMBERLAIN (The Hon. A. E. FELLOWES,): My right honourable friend has asked me to read his answer, as follows: "I am afraid that I cannot add anything to the statements I have previously made on this subject. I do not feel myself justified in withdrawing from the Local

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  Authorities the powers which they possess to protect themselves against the introduction of disease into their districts, but I would bring under their notice any representations which I might receive as to the restrictions imposed in particular cases."

  TRAINING COLLEGES OF SCOTLAND
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate if he will state when the Report Training Colleges of Scotland will he in the hands of Members.
  THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. A. G. MUURAY,): The Report on the Training Colleges of Scotland was laid on the Table, and handed to the (Queen's printers on the 24th April. We are informed that it will be delivered to Members in about a week's tune.

  SECONDARY EDUCATION IN SCOTLAND.
  MR. NICOL: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate, whether a school board, could erect the secondary department of one of their schools into a higher class school under Sections 62 or 63 of the Act of 1872, and so become eligible to share in the grants proposed under the Minute dated 27th April, 1899?
  MR. A. G. MURRAY: There is nothing to prevent a school board from coming to a resolution in terms of Section 62 or 63 of the Education Act of 1872, with respect to any school to which these Sections apply, and if that resolution were approved the school would become eligible to share in the grant under the Minute of 27th April, 1899.

  AGRICULTURE AND INDUSTRIES (IRELAND) BILL.
  MR. M'GHEE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the resolution unanimously adopted to the Louth County Council on the 13th instant, declaring the financial proposals of the Irish Agriculture and Industries Bill to be entirely inadequate for the accomplishment of the objects in view; whether he is aware that this declaration fairly express the views of all classes in Ireland upon the subject: and whether he will have the matter reconsidered during the Whitsuntide recess, with the view of having the Bill amended in this respect.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. G. W. BALFOUR,): The answer to the first paragraph is in the affirmative. I have no knowledge on the subject of the second paragraph. The financial provisions of the Bill were maturely considered before its introduction, and I can hold out no hope in the direction suggested in the third paragraph.

  TECHNICAL INSTRUCTION IN IRELAND.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the sum of £55,000, to be applied under the Agriculture, and Technical Instruction (Ireland) Bill to technical instruction, is exclusive, of the present grants in connection with the Science and Art Department.
  MR. G. W. BALFOUR: The answer to this question is in the affirmative.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: Will the grants for the maintenance of existing institutions be paid in future to the parties directly by the Treasury?
  MR. G. W. BALFOUR: If the duties are transferred to the Department, the, grants will be administered by it.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: Can the right honourable Gentleman say approximately what was the amount the Science, and Art Department expended last year in Ireland?
  MR. G. W. BALFOUR: Not at this moment.

  ROYAL, IRISH CONSTABULARY PENSIONERS.
  MR. MACALEESE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether it is a fact that many small pension holders from the Royal Irish Constabulary would be anxious to commute their pensions and if so, will opportunity be offered them to commute on fair and reasonable terms.
  MR. G. W. BALFOUR: The Inspector General does occasionally receive inquiries from constabulary pensioners as to whether they can commute their pensions but I understand there is no legal power to do so. I doubt whether, in the in

  1033
  terest of the men themselves, the right to commute should be given to them.

  SOUDAN EXPEDITION, 1898—THE GRANT TO LORD KITCHENER.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): I want to announce to the House, in obedience to a pledge I gave on the subject, that I propose to take the Address for a grant for Lord Kitchener on Monday, June 5, which is the first Monday after we return from the holidays.

  THE WHITSUNTIDE ADJOURNMENT.
  Motion made and Question proposed—
  "That this House at its rising do adjourn till Wednesday 31st May, and that at the conclusion of Government business this day Mr. Speaker do adjourn the House without Question put. —(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)

  TRANSVAAL AFFAIRS.
  MR. DILLONsaid he desired to say a few words with reference to the statement made by the Colonial Secretary yesterday with regard to the presentation of Papers relating to the Transvaal
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN,): Perhaps the honourable Gentleman will allow me to intervene at this stage, for it may save him the trouble of going into this matter. The honourable Member asked me yesterday about the presentation of the Papers with regard to the dynamite monopoly. I was not able to give him a definite answer. It was my original intention to present those Papers, included in a great number of other Papers relating to matters in South Africa, after Whitsuntide. I think those Papers will now have to be delayed in consequence of the negotiations which are going on between Sir Alfred Milner and President Kruger, and I have found it convenient, under the circumstances, to present the dynamite Papers separately. I have accordingly laid them upon the Table.
  MR. DILLONsaid that under the circumstances he would say no more on the subject, because it was on those papers that he intended to speak, and the statement of the right honourable Gentleman had practically met all he intended to ask for.

  AGRICULTURAL HOLDINGS ACT.
  Mr. CHANNINGsaid the opportunities of bringing questions before the House were so few that he wished to take this opportunity of calling attention to a measure which was mentioned in the Queen's Speech. He alluded to the Agricultural Holdings Act. He wished to question the Government upon this measure, and also to express a feeling which he believed was held very largely amongst the farmers of this country, that the perpetual postponement of this question after its repeated appearance in the Queen's Speech, and after the repeated pledges of the First Lord of the Treasury and the President of the Board of Agriculture was most unsatisfactory. They had a right to enter a very definite protest against the course which had been adopted with regard to this Bill. A very definite pledge was given in the First Lord. of the Treasury's address to the electors of Manchester, and although it was a question on which there was probably more unanimity than on any other question amongst all sections of the House, they had seen this measure postponed year by year and Session by Session, and they had absolutely no guarantee whatsoever that this question would be dealt with in the present Session, and they did not know what lines the Government would proceed upon when they attempted to deal with it. Not only the First Lord of the Treasury, but also the President of the Board of Agriculture had also made himself specially responsible for this Bill to the country. The subject had been inquired into and reported upon two Royal Commissions, and the Central and Associated Chambers of Agriculture and other bodies who had a special right to be heard in this House had given their views. There was no question which had been so thoroughly threshed out, and the subject had been ripe for legislation for some years. Not only had there been these Royal Commissions, but there had repeatedly been decisions in this House in favour of the measure. A Bill of this description passed its Second Reading in 1895—
  MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member is now going into the general question of the necessity for legislation upon this subject, and he will not he in order in doing that upon this occasion.
  MR. CHANNINGsaid he was en-

  1035
  deavouring to show that not only had Her Majesty's Government promised for four years in succession to bring in legislation of this kind, but they had the whole of the material for legislation before them, and there was no excuse whatever for refusing any longer to deal with it. Tie thought nobody in that house would challenge his statement that this question was absolutely ripe for solution, and that Her Majesty's Government had again and again pledged themselves to deal with it. He thought they had a perfect right to protest against the course which had been persisted in year by year. The measure might be proceeded with easily during the. present session, because there was a unanimity of feeling in all parts of the Horse. Not only in this House, but the decisions outside were practically unanimous, and the differences that existed were more in detail than in principle. They had a right to know what Her Majesty's Government's proposals were. Upon this question the assertions and statements of the President of the Board of Agriculture, made in different parts of the country, were not consistent, for in one part of the country he held forth hopes to the agriculturists which were not verified old supported by statements which he had made in other parts of the country. When speaking in Scotland the right honourable Gentleman supported One theory, and when at: Westminster he supported a wholly different one. Therefore they had a right to demand that the Government should introduce this Bill, and allow the House an opportunity either dealing with it in the present session or at any rate of bringing opinion to bear upon it in such a form that Tier Majesty's Government would see on what lines they would have to settle this question in order to produce any satisfaction among the agricultural community. This was a question of political necessity sound economical policy, both in the interests of the landlords as well as that of the tenant farmers. There was one other matter to which he should like to refer. The House was well aware that a question of urgent interest to the agricultural community was now before Parliament in the Food and Drugs Bill, and he wished to express the hope that Her Majesty's Government would approach this questionon—
  MR. SPEAKER: The honourable
  1036
  Member is not in order in referring to a Bill which is not before the House.
  MR. CHANNINGsaid the only course pursued by the Government had been that of protecting the interests of the land-owning classes, and there was a grave suspicion that if this Bill was further postponed, the protection of the right of the tenant farmer to the improvements which he made in his farm would he endangered. To Her Majesty's Government, who were pledged to protect the tenant farmer, those tights seemed to be of less importance than the interests of the landowning class. He desired to know definitely whether the Government had come to the conclusion not to proceed with this Bill during the present session. He asked them frankly and fairly to place their proposals before the House in order that they might be discussed in agricultural circles during the recess.

  SCOTTISH EDUCATION AND FINANCE.
  DR. CLARKthought that before the House adjourned they ought to have some information from the Government as to what they were going to do in reference to Scottish finance, especially in reference to that for education. He did not know whether they intended to bring in a Bill to reorganise the Education Department, or whether they intended session after session to carry on this organisation without any Act of Parliament or without any law at all except by Minute as they were doing now. The Minute of the present year entirely changed the whole plan. He did not intend to say much regarding that, and lie would confine himself to the financial position which they were placed in by the Act of Parliament which was passed two years ago. That measure was passed upon certain statements made on behalf of the Government by the Lord Advocate, but the facts showed that the right, honourable Gentleman entirely misrepresented and misunderstood the state of things he was creating by this Act. He grossly over-estimated the amount to come to Scotland, and under-estimated the amount that would go to England, and the result was that Scotland lost about £75,000 a year during the last two years that otherwise she would have got, if the principle of the equivalent grants had been carried out. As a result of the

  1037
  change they found that England was getting very much more than her share. In addition to this the Scotch Department had become a Secondary Education Department. They expected to get their fair share of the equivalent grant but they did not get it—
  MR. SPEAKER: It appears to me that the honourable Gentleman is discussing and reviewing past legislation or the necessity for new legislation, and that is not in order.
  DR. CLARK. said his point was that the Government got this legislation passed up, facts which were entirely wrong. Their prophecies had proved to he fallacious and the estimates were entirely wrong, and the result had been that they had been deprived of £75,000 a year.
  MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member is now going into the question of the effect of past legislation. It is not in order to go back into the history of how a Bill became law upon a motion for adjournment.
  DR. CLARKcontended that this was not done by legislation, for if that had been so they could have expressed their views upon it. It had been done simply by arrangement with the Treasury on the one side and the Scotch Office on the other.
  MR. SPEAKER: The honourable, Member would be in order if he was simply complaining of something which he alleges is illegal.
  DR. CLARKsaid it appeared that one department could make an arrangement with another department and prepare estimates, and then say to the Scotch Members, "If these things are trio you will get a fair equivalent grant," but that had not been the result.
  THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. A. G. MURRAY), on a point of order, said he understood that the honourable Member's complaint was, that, under the two Bills passed in 1897, as the facts
  showed, Scotland had not got as much money as she ought to have had. That might or might not be true, but those Bills were passed, and Scotland could only get that amount of money, and nothing which
  1038
  the Government could do could affect that amount without further legislation on the subject.
  DR. CLARKsaid an arrangement was made between the Treasury and the Scotch Office, under which the Treasury was to pay to the Scotch Office a large stun for two years, which hail not been paid. The Treasury Were paying £5,000 this year, and Scotland was losing large sums because of the arrangement made between the Treasury and the Scotch Office, not by Act of Parliament but simply by an arrangement which any Chancellor of the Exchequer might repudiate. That was the point he wished to press upon the House, that it was not done by legislation but had been done in air underhand, behind-the-chair fashion by winch the Lord Advocate came and told them that they would secure a great deal of money from the Treasury, and Scotland was not to ask for a fair equivalent of what _England was getting.
  MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member would he in order if he is complaining that the powers exercised by the Government these Acts of Parliament have been exercised improperly. If he is referring to the ciremnstances under which some provisions have been embodied in a Bill two years ago he is out of order.
  DR. CLARKexplained that a Bill was brought in for England, but the Lord Advocate, Oil behalf of the Scotch Education Department, said that instead of having that Bill for Scotland as well as for England, the Government had made an arrangement with the Treasury under which the voluntary school Children and the board school children would get a sum which would practically raise the grant to twelve shillings. They made a change from eleven-eightieths to ten shillings per head, and an arrangement was made by which the Treasury would keep up this grant to twelve shillings per head. Now they had had two years' experience, and instead of that sum being placed in the Estimates and paid over by the Treasury, not a single penny was paid or asked for. This year they had placed on the Estimates£5,000, so that instead of getting £50,000, which the Scotch Education Department agreed with the Treasury would be required, only £5,000 had been put

  1039
  down, and what they were protesting against was that these great changes were being made and free education was bring changed to secondary by the Department without any legislation whatever. The legality of this course was very doubtful, for they wove doing it by Minute and by arrangement instead of by bringing a Bill before the House. This was very discreditable, for it was being done by a Department winch the Scotch members had no confidence in. Scotland was simply being defrauded of this money, and all the Scotch Members could do was, at question time, to bring all these facts before the Treasury and the Scotch Office.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E): Before the honourable Member opposite raises the Colonial debate, I should like to reply to what has already been said. As regards what has fallen from the honourable Member for Caithness, I understand that he is trying to drag this question into the vortex of the equivalent grant controversy, upon which I hope the House will not embark this afternoon. The pledge given by my right honourable friend near me was that the Exchequer would always make up the 12s. per child necessary to carry out free education in Scotland, as that question has already been conceived by them. Now that sum has been paid, although the sum originally proposed has not been required.
  DR. CLARKsaid the original estimate was £660,000, and they had received only £611,000 or £618,000.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: If the honour able Member can show that the 12s. per child has not been paid by the Treasury, he will have a real grievance, but until he can show that he has not.

  AGRICULTURAL HOLDINGS ACT.
  As regards the observations of the honour able, Member for East Northamptonshire, he has passed a sevens criticism upon the Government for not having brought in, in the course of the present session, the Agricultural Holdings Act. I could not quite gather from his speech whether the honourable Member objected on the ground that the Bill was not brought in and passed, or whether he objected because
  1040
  he only wanted the Hill to be brought ill in order that he might have an opportunity of discussing it all the winter in the various Chambers of Agriculture and in his own constituency. Whichever was the honourable Member's complaint, it appears to me to be somewhat unreasonable. It was perfectly true that at the last General Election not only I, but I think most Members of Parliament, declared their intention of doing all that was possible to aid the agricultural interest. Will anybody, looking back for the last few years, say that these pledges have not been fulfilled? The honourable Gentleman objected to the Agricultural Rating Act. I will not now go into the merits of that Act, but I am confident that if the honourable Member will put before the farmers in his constituency the Agricultural Rating Act on the one side, and the possible measure for tenants; improvements in regard to agricultural holdings on the other, I think they would elect for the measure which the honourable Gentleman opposite opposed. I think a somewhat similar observation might be made in regard to another piece of legislation which the Government are bringing forward this session in relief of agriculture—I mean the Bill in charge of my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Agriculture, the Sale of Food and Drugs Bill. Again, I say that if the farmers of this country were given the choice whether they would have the Food and Drugs Bill or the Bill which the honourable Gentleman this afternoon advocates, I believe they would prefer the Food and Drugs Bill. We have passed one great measure and are in process of passing another great measure for the direct benefit of the agricultural interest among others. I confess, looking forward as far as I can into the present session, that I do not see much prospect of the Agricultural Holdings Act being dealt with, but I trust that we have several sessions before us, and therefore the honourable Gentleman need not despair of seeing his pet scheme caried to a successful issue.

  SCOTTISH EDUCATION AND FINANCE.
  CAPTAIN SINCLAIRsaid he wished to press for a little more information on the question of Scotch Education. The right honourable Gentleman in charge of Scotch business in the House was well

  1041
  aware that there was a considerable interest taken in the question, and they had endeavoured from time to time to elicit from him some information on the point brought forward by the honourable Member for Caithness, and they had not been able to get that information. It had already been brought to the attention of the House what occurred in June 1897, as to the money which was allotted to Scotland, and the complaint was that there had been a departure from the system of equivalent grants for Scotland. In June 1897, the Lord Advocate, in a series of calculations, said that the money which Scotland would receive under the grant which was then arranged between the Treasury and the Scottish Education Department would be £66,000, made up in different ways, but in the last resort by a special grant of 12s. per head which he estimated would come to £26,000. The complaint he made now was that, having accepted that estimate of £26,000 as due to Scotland for this purpose, they had not got that money.
  MR. SPEAKER: I think the honourable Member will be out of order in pursuing that line of argument. I understand his argument to be that in 1897 statements were made which induced the House to pass certain measures, and he is now complaining that those statements turned out to be incorrect. That is a point which cannot now be discussed. Rightly or wrongly, the House acted upon those statements and the Bill became law, and the honourable Gentleman cannot discuss on a motion for adjournment whether those statements were correct or not, though it is open to him to contend that the Government have acted improperly or illegally.
  CAPTAIN SINCLAIRsaid the exact complaint of the Scotch Members was that whereas the estimate which the Government made was set down at £26,000, that estimate had not been fulfilled, and they had received in Scotland both this year and last year a sum which was very largely short of what was promised.
  MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member hardly follows what I said. I repeat that it is out of order to go back on the arguments which induced the House to pass certain measures.
  CAPTAIN SINCLAIRpointed out that what he wished to put before the House was the fact that a particular bargain had not been fulfilled, and he contested the conduct of the Government in dealing with Scotch education in this particular respect. They had given no explanation, and he again asked the Lord Advocate if he could tell the House how it was that Scotland had not received the amount of the estimate which had been accepted.

  REDISTRIBUTION.
  MAJOR RASCHsaid he should like to devote about five minutes to the question of redistribution, and to what a leading journal called the scandal of over representation in various parts of England.
  MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member must see that to discuss a Redistribution Bill on a motion for adjournment would be to discuss a matter for legislation, and that would be entirely out of order.

  CEYLON ORDINANCES.
  MR. SCHWANNsaid he was exceedingly obliged to the Secretary for the Colonies for having promised them a report on the Ceylon ordinances. He now desired to say a few words impugning the action of the right honourable Gentleman and also the action of Sir West Ridgeway He thought he ought to apologise to Sir West Ridgeway for a speech he made upon a former occasion, because he had discovered that the right honourable Gentleman himself was responsible for the land ordinance in Ceylon. Lord Selborne, in a speech which he delivered in another place a short time ago said—
  "The The amending ordinance which has been violently attacked was not prepared on the initiation of the Governor of Ceylon, but on the direct instructions of the Secretary of State for the Colonies."
  Continuing, Lord Selborne said—
  "If, therefore, that ordinance is ill-timed or an ill-conceived measure, the first responsibility rests not with tine Government of Ceylon, but with Her Majesty's Government."
  He was prepared to prove, in the words of Lord Selborne, that this ordinance was both ill-tinted and ill-conceived, and lie was not going to base that simply upon his own statement nor upon that of Mr. Le Mesurier. He would

  1043
  bring into the witness-box a number of gentlemen who were members of the Legislative Council of Ceylon. The Hon. Mr. Mitchell, a mercantile member, who is an Englishman, calls this ordinance, "A most unprincipled Bill, devoid of all the principles of common honesty." The Hon. Mr. Goomard Swann, another member, spoke of it as "A vile ordinance which would ruin the people." The Hon. Mr. Christie, another Englishman, expressed himself as follows:—
  "The ordinance as a whole was too heroic, although His Excellency had foreshadowed a policy that would not be heroic. It went too far; instead of untying the knot, it simply cut it. It simply declared that with one small exception all the land in the country was Crown land, and they had got to prove it was not."
  The Hon. Sir John Grinlinton, the general European member, did not think the Government ever contemplated the execution of such an arbitrary law. He thought that showed that the statement made by the right honourable Gentleman in this House, and by Lord Salisbury in another place, that this ordinance had met with general approval was without foundation. With regard to the newspapers of Ceylon—some of them which had always taken a Conservative line in all matters concerning the Colony—what did they say? They described the passing of this ordinance as blackmail, and as inflicting gross and bitter hardship upon the natives. Since the various articles condemning the ordinance had appeared in the various Ceylon papers he had received from the Association of Planters of Chillaw resolutions in exactly the same terms, and he felt compelled to read their statement because it came from a body of men who were impartial, and he thought the House would agree with him that they were people entitled to be heard in this House. At a meeting of that body the following is what took place. The Chairman moved a resolution to the following effect:—
  "That the statement of the Secretary of State for the Colonies, in the House of Commons, on the 20th March last, to the effect that 'the principle of land ordinances of Ceylon is regarded with satisfaction by the vast majority of the natives,' has no foundation, and this association is of opinion that the statement was made by Mr. Chamberlain in ignorance of facts and under misinformation, the truth being that the said ordinances are, both in principle and in their practical working, oppressive and extortionate as regards the natives, amongst whom they have been the
  1044
  cause of the greatest dissatisfaction with the Government from the earliest times."
  This motion was seconded by Mr. Munasinha and carried unanimously. In another article the Ceylon, Standard, a very Imperialistic paper, in a leading article on the 7th of April, said:
  "That at this time of day any man out-side the Government service could be found or pressed into the service to defend the policy of this most iniquitous piece of legislation passes ordinary human comprehension. We admire the audacity of the man who gravely and solemnly proclaims that the Waste Lands Ordinance is harmless and necessary. Such a man cannot but stand condemned as being ignorant of the most elementary principles of justice and fair play."
  The same journal goes on to say:
  "The private individual in lawful possession of his land may be turned out, or certainly he may be prevented from reaping the fruits of his labour. The land he possesses may furnish him his sole income. It may be the entire support of his family. Yet it may be taken away from him at a moment's notice. He dare not step on to it, and thus reduced to a state of destitution and starvation he may be told to bring his action against the Crown and prove that the land is his. This is no fanciful picture. This has repeatedly happened in our Courts. It is doubly cruel to treat the villager thus, because the Government officials know that 90 percent, of our village lands are claimed by virtue of prescriptive possession. To deprive a man of his only source of income, to take possession of the fruits of his labour, and then to compel him to bring an action to establish his title is a monstrosity utterly unworthy of any Government. We may tell the apologists for Government that the Government, evidently ashamed of this piece of special legislation, his determined to resort to the regular tribunals of the land and adopt the ordinary procedure.
  He was glad to say that they had been forced to do that by the action of the Colonial judges. He called attention to these matters because there was a new ordinance going to be introduced which was likely to affect most seriously the interests of the villagers of Ceylon, because at the end of it there was a clause which glossed over and whitewashed any irregularities which might have been committed by the Government. There was another misstatement made in another place by Lord Selborne, which he felt bound to correct, or otherwise it might be accepted as the truth.
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, Order! The honourable Member is quite in order in calling attention to these matters, but he is obviously replying in detail to a speech

  1045
  made in the House of Lords, not in order in doing that.
  MR SCHWANNsaid he desired to draw the attention of the House very strongly to this fact, because he thought they would be disposed to take lip the protection of the village population of Ceylon. It was not a very entrancing subject, but this House was responsible for the rightful enjoyment of property by these races, and it would be wrong to allow this opportunity to puss without drawing the attention of the right honour able Gentleman to the past working of the ordinance, and the opinion which had been formed in Ceylon of the extreme gravity of the situation. The right honourable Gentleman seemed to underrate entirely the gravity of the action which he had caused to be carried out on his own initiative in that island. The presiding magistrate heard the defence, and then the case was carried to another court, where the native had to come up and prove his right to the land he occupied. It was an exceedingly difficult thing for a poor peasant in that country, without it knowledge of the law, to be forced to prove in a court of law his right to lands which had been from time immemorial in the hands of his predecessors. He wished to impress, most strongly upon the right honourable Gentleman the view which was held now by all classes of the population, and of the labouring classes who had been despoiled of their land, and which had been expressed by the papers which represented the public opinion of the moment, and which been expressed by the judges in unmistakable terms, that, there was a great want of satisfaction with the log of this ordinance. As there was another Act which was likely to be still more strongly used against the people of Ceylon, he hoped the right honourable Gentleman would take into full consideration the seriousness of the case, old take all means in his power to diminish the oppression with which these Acts were being carried out in that island.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: The, honourable Gentleman opposite says he hopes upon another occasion that he will be able to go more into detail on this question. I cannot understand why, under those circumstances, he should have taken advantage of this occasion to repeat the
  1046
  statement which he made on a previous occasion and which evidently he is going to repeat again. I am always perfectly ready to meet any attack, but I think it is a disadvantage when a subject of this kind, which involves a reference to a great number of documents, is brought up without any longer notice than is given in a letter delivered to me some time after I came into the House, and in which my honourable friend says he is prepared to attack a statement made in another place, and which, of course, the honourable Member knows as well as I do, cannot be properly discussed here under the Orders of the House. The honourable Member states that his object was
  "To call attention to the past working of certain ordinances in Ceylon to the extreme gravity of situation, and to the opinion of all classes of the people of Ceylon."
  But, as a matter of fact, the honourable Member said nothing to inform the House as to the nature and character of these ordinances or of their working, and the only information he gave as to the opinions of the population was to quote the views of certain individuals who are members of the legislative body, and the opinion of certain newspapers. In Ceylon, as elsewhere, there is an Opposition as well as a Government, and that opposition generally finds fault with the legislation of the country. Now if you take as the general opinion of the people the opinions expressed in the organs of the Opposition in reference to the legislation of the Government, you will he sure to come to a very inaccurate conclusion indeed. I repeat here what I have said upon a previous occasion, that, according to the very best information which I able to obtain —a good deal of which will no doubt appear in the Papers which I have promised, for which the honourable Gentleman is too impatient to wait— it will appear from those papers that, at all events, these ordinances are not generally unpopular, but on the contrary I believe that they are generally approved of. If the House will consider for a moment what this legislation is, honourable Members will see good reason for believing that I am correct in that view. This legislation is intended to protect the community against the individual, and it is a most extraordinary thing that the honourable Member opposite, who calls himself an advanced Radical, should on this occasion get up and take up the case of the

  1047
  individual as against the community. In all the land legislation we undertake in this House, we find that honourable Members opposite always claim that the rights of individuals should not lie allowed to prejudice the claims and rights of the community. But in this particular case, where the natives are concerned in a distant dependency, the honourable Gentleman takes up the case of Mr. Le Mesurier, a land speculator, and other persons of the same kidney, as against the interests of the whole of the people. When the charge takes a more definite form I shall be prepared to answer it, but at present I can add nothing to the statement which I made upon a previous occasion.
  MR. ELLIS J. GRIFFITHsaid the right honourable Gentleman had not followed the advice which he had given to the honourable Member for North Manchester, for he had himself care fully avoided all reference to the nature and character of the land ordinances. He was sure that, on whichever side of the House they sat, honourable Members would admit that they best, looked after The interests of the community looking after the interests of the individual. If he remembered aright, the doctrine of "ransom" which was once advocated by the right, honourable Gentleman was to take away from the rich and give to the poor. These ordinances, however, took away from the poor to give to the Government; so that a very great change had taken place within the last, few years with regard to the doctrine of "ransom" But however that might be, it was unnecessary now to enter into personalities. They had a perfect right to refer to Members of that House as politicians, but what was the good of referring to Mr. Le Mesurier as a land speculator and "persons of that kidney, for even Mr. Le Mesurier was entitled to justice. Upon another occasion the right honourable Gentleman alluded to Mr. Le Mesurier not only as a land-grabber but also as a wife-grabber.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: No, no! The honourable Gentleman misrepresents me. What I said on a previous occasion I have repeated to-day, that this Mr. Le Mesurier is a land speculator who bought large quantities of land or doubtful claims from the natives at a very low rate, and he is prosecuting them against
  1048
  the Government, which in this case represents the community. I also said that Mr. Le Mesurier, having failed to obtain a divorce from his wife, had declared himself a Mahomedan and married a second wife.
  MR. ELLIS J. GRIFFITHpointed out that Mr. Le Mesurier had offered to give to the Government all the land at the price he gave for it if the Government would restore it to the people to whom it originally belonged. As to this divorce, Mr. Le Mesurier obtained it in the Lower Courts of Ceylon on absolutely irresistible evidence, but when he went to the Higher Court a technical objection was taken that a marriage contracted in England could not be dissolved in Ceylon. That technical objection was fatal, and after that Mr. Le Mesurier became a Mahomedan. The right honourable Gentleman himself should be the last person in this House to complain of a person changing his religion or anything else. He could quite understand that a man could conscientiously become a Mahomedan. Many citizens of the Queen were Mahomedans, and why should they make so much of a man becoming a Mahomedan? They sent out, missionaries to India to make Christians of Mahomedans, and he failed to see anything wrong in a Christian becoming a Mahomedan. With respect to this ordinance, what he complained of was that it referred to all uncultivated land, and to all land that had not been in constant cultivation for five years continuously. Anyone who knew anything about Ceylon knew that the cultivation of land there was intermittent. Was it not a scandalous thing that, according to the doctrine of "ransom," the Government were going to confiscate all this land which had not been cultivated for five years in succession? There was only one remedy for this state of things in Ceylon, and that was to have some sort of an independent inquiry. They had heard a great deal about Sir West Ridgeway, but his career as an administrator had not been very fortunate. The right honourable Gentleman had alluded to the newspapers in Ceylon, but it was not a fair analogy to compare them with the newspapers in this country. There was only one paper in Ceylon which supported this ordinance, and that was a paper owned by the Government solicitor. The right honourable Gentleman got all his information

  1049
  from the officials, and what they asked was that instead of doing this he should get his information from some impartial or independent persons. If the right honourable Gentleman would take the trouble to inquire carefully into this matter he would find that these ordinances were unfair, unjust, and an oppression upon the native population of Ceylon.
  MR. PIRIEsaid he had spent three years on the staff in India, and he could refute any charge against Mr. Le Mesurier as far as oppression upon the natives was concerned, for he did not think there was any man against whom that charge could be urged with less reason.

  SCOTTISH AFFAIRS—LIQUOR REFORM— ARMY STATISTICS.
  What he desired, however, to bring before the House was the persistent disregard, as far as Scotch wishes and opinion were concerned, of the various subjects which came before the House this Session. There had been an utter disregard of temperance reform, and he asked the First Lord of the Treasury not many days ago what the intentions of the Government were in view of the facts given in favour of a Local Veto Bill in Scotland. The Government did not seem to be aware of the fact that there had been a very strong demand from Scotland for over a quarter of a century in favour of temperance reform. He thought great fault was to be found with the Government in regard to their deliberate policy of concealment from this House as regarded the furnishing of statistics showing the strength of the various battalions of soldiers. He hoped that an opportunity would be found upon the discussion of the salary of the Secretary of State for War of bringing up this matter more fully. He emphasised the fact that as long as the same physical qualifications at present in force obtained, accuracy as regarded the age of soldiers and other statistics was impossible. They would obtain more accuracy as to age by looking at the teeth than by the present system, and the practice which obtained in this country of enlisting boys was absolutely inhuman, and the sooner it was changed the better.

  SCOTTISH AFFAIRS.
  Mr. WEIRsaid he had one or two
  1050
  matters to which he desired to call the attention of the House. First there was the question of dog licences and the rules, adopted in Scotland by Inland Revenue Officers. What he wished to impress upon those in charge of this question was that each officer should not be a law unto himself. The burden of these dog taxes was a very serious matter indeed to the poor cottars and crofters, to whom 7s. 6d. a year was a very serious item. Honourable Members in this House might think it a small matter, but it was no small matter to the poor crofters in the Highlands. A few days ago he got a Return from the Scottish Office showing that out of 800 boys attending the navigation classes in Scotland during a certain period, nearly 700 came from the Highland crofting counties. He did think that some efforts should be made to give Highland boys an opportunity of joining the Navy, and he trusted that the Admiralty would make some efforts to send up a training ship not for a few hours, but for a few weeks, in order to afford those boys who are so accustomed to sea life, and who would make splendid sailors, an opportunity of joining the Navy. With reference to the fishery cruisers, he found from a Return issued the other day that Her Majesty's ship "Jackal" had only been at sea 47 days out of 119. Surely there must be something radically wrong, these boats are wanted to look after the trawlers, and instead of doing this work the Admiralty cruiser lies idle in Stornoway Harbour. He thought the Fishery Board should have power to see that these police boats do their duty, and should not be allowed to skulk away half their time. They would hear less of this illicit trawling if more attention was paid to these police boats. Now he came to a question for the Lord Advocate pure and simple. What he wished to urge upon the Scottish Office was this: they offered to provide half an acre of waste land for the fishermen in some part of the Island of Lewis. He thought that with a couple of acres of that waste land the fishermen would be able to maintain themselves during the period of the year when they could not sell their fish. He did hope that the Scottish Office would pay some attention to this matter. He called the attention of the Lord Advocate to the way in which sand was silting up in some of the harbours in the Highlands of Scotland, and pointed

  1051
  out that although the matter had been brought to the notice of the Scottish Office nothing had been done.
  MR. COLVILLErose to call attention to the neglect of the Scotch Office in the matter of providing adequate accommodation for the pupil teachers of Scotland. He desired to say there was a, strong feeling in Scotland that the people did not obtain the proportion of money for education to which they were entitled. The promises of the Scotch Office had not been fulfilled with regard to technical education. He hoped something would now lie done in the matter.

  TRANSVAAL, AFFAIRS.
  MR. J. BRYN ROBERTS (Carnarvonshire, Eifion)called attention to the attitude assumed by the Colonial Secretary in intermeddling with the internal affairs of the Transvaal. He said it was impossible to peruse the Conventions of 1881 and 1884 without coming to the conclusion that we had no right whatever to interfere in the internal affairs of the Transvaal. On the contrary, the Transvaal was absolutely independent in every respect except one, which was that if they concluded a treaty with any foreign Government it was to be submitted to the Queen, and should not be valid if Her Majesty disapproved of it within six months. Under the Convention of 1884 the Republic was, so far, as independent of us as any other Power in the world. It was impossible for any person to say that we had any right over the Transvaal State except such a right as we had with any other State the—right of friendly remonstrance. The questions affecting the Transvaal in which this country was asked to interfere were purely domestic questions, which had troubled the earlier years of every other civilised State. There was not one of the grievances of the Uitlanders in the Transvaal which had not or had in the past its counterpart in England, especially with regard to the franchise, which was only given to the middle classes in 1832, while the working classes only obtained it in 1865 and 1885. Would anybody suggest that that gave a right to a foreign Power to interfere in our affairs? It was weak and imbecile on the part of the Uitlanders to make whining applications to another country
  1052
  to help them to obtain the franchise. There was the gravest reason for withholding the franchise to some extent from the Uitlander population. It was a mining population who had gone to the Transvaal not for the purpose of settling there, but for the purpose of speculating, making money, and then returning to England. Such persons were not entitled, and ought not to be, to the franchise, which was only intended to be given to those who were resolved to make the country their permanent home. That is why a long term of residence was required before it was granted. He ventured to say that not one per cent. or one in a thousand of the emigrant population ever returned or intended to return to this country when they went to America, except for short visits; but that was not the case in the Transvaal. The Uitlanders were admitted to the franchise for the Second Volksraad within two years, and if they had no voice in the election of the First Volksraad or of the President, Englishmen had no voice in the constitution of the House of Lords or in the appointment of the Head of the State. It was said that the mining industry was taxed beyond endurance. All information coming from South Africa was to be looked on with the gravest suspicion, because the metropolitan papers, with one or two exceptions, were under the control of the Rhodesian capitalists, and misrepresentations of the grossest character were circulated. The taxation on the mining industry was less in the Transvaal than in any other important mining country in the world. An unbiassed investigation of the facts must lead any honest man to the conclusion that we had been trying to pick a quarrel with the Transvaal. As to the petition which had been presented to the Queen, everyone knew how signatures to petitions were obtained. In this country they cost 1s. a hundred; in the Transvaal they cost 4s. The attempt that had been made by certain Rhodesian speculators, who seemed to have a magnetic influence over the Colonial Secretary, would fail; and the country was under a debt of obligation to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for standing against the influence of these speculators.

  SCOTTISH AFFAIRS
  MR. CALDWELLthought he was entitled to ask the

  1053
  Government what legislation the Government proposed to bring forward for Scotland. Hitherto the session had been barren of any attempt to fulfil the real wishes of the Scotch people, and when measures which really concerned the social welfare of Scotland were brought forward the Scotch Members were outvoted by English. He also complained of the arrangement by which the Secretary for Scotland had no place in this House, and had therefore no opportunity of keeping himself ill touch with Scottish Members. He reminded the House of the fact that Scotch law was essentially different from the English law. An Act of Parliament was never passed unless there were certain things to be reserved in its application to Scotland. In dealing, therefore, with a country whose laws were different from those in England, he ventured to say that they ought to have those laws in accordance with the sentiments of the Scotch people. No one, of course, could doubt the loyalty of the people of Scotland. As, therefore, with the exception of one little Bill, there was no legislation for Scotland before Parliament, he thought they were entitled to resist the Adjournment. Another point which he complained of with regard to Scotch matters was that they had not the Secretary for Scotland in the representative Chamber. That was a most serious matter having regard to the arrangements in connection with the other Departments. In the case of the Finance Act, for instance, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had full power to make concessions, as was shown in the proceedings the other day. Then, again, in the case of the London Government Bill, the right honourable Gentleman in charge of the measure was able to make concessions from time to time, tending, he had no doubt, to the great improvement of the Bill. On the other hand, what did they do when they had not the representative of a Department in the House? Take, for instance, the notorious case of the Vice-President of the Council. What was the use of -him in that House when his head was in the other House? He was more than useless in the Commons. Again, take the Scotch business. What was the advantage of having the Secretary for Scotland in the other House? He had no desire to be disrespectful to the Lord Advocate, but what was the reason why they had a Secretary for Scotland at all? It was
  1054
  that they might have a man who was in touch with the constituencies and Scotch members on both sides of the House. Well, what took place at the present moment? If there was any Scotch business the Lord Advocate simply came down to the House holding a brief for the Department, and receiving his instructions beforehand. He listened to the debate, but he could not depart one iota from his instructions. Was that fair to the House when in the case of the other Departments most important changes were made owing to the discussion that took place? He was bound to say that that was not a satisfactory way of doing the business of the House. The Lord Advocate came to the House as a counsel— not as a statesman. He did not exercise his own independent judgment. If he were really the Secretary for Scotland, he (Mr. Caldwell) would not object, but he did object because he came with his hands and tongue practically tied, and did nothing but what the permanent officials in the Department had given him instructions to do. With respect to the grant made in 1877, he claimed that they were entitled to ask the Government to reconsider the matter,
  MR. SPEAKERreminded the honourable Member that he was traversing the ruling he had laid down.
  MR. CALDWELLbowed to the Speaker's ruling. Proceeding, he said, there was one other matter which had been referred to by his honourable friend the Member for North-East Lanark (Mr. Colville), and that was the want of proper training colleges for the teachers in Scotland. There was a great demand for trained teachers, but those who had served as pupil teachers, undergone all their examinations, and become qualified to be trained as teachers could not get admission to the training colleges simply because there was not room. He understood perfectly well the reason why the Government did not increase the number of training colleges. The Government could not call upon the denominations to increase the training colleges because they were private property; these colleges were practically maintained at the expense of the State, and they were bound to keep up the present system. This Was the reason why they did not adopt the plan of having State training colleges.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolved—
  "That this House at its rising do adjourn till Monday,31st May, and that at the conlusion of Goverment business, this day, Mr. Speaker do adjourn the House without Question put."

  MERCHANT SHIPPING (LIMITATION OF LIABILITY OF SHIPOWNERS)
  Bill to amend the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894,with respect to the limitation of the liability of Shipowners, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Charles M'Arthur, Sir Francis Evans Mr. Warr, Sir Charles Cayzer, Colonel Denny John Leng, and Mr. W. F. Lawrence.
  SECONDARY EDUCATION
  Bill for the provision of secondary Education, and for other purposes connected with Education, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Evelyn Cecil, Mr. Talbot, Mr. Cripps, Viscount Cranborne, and Mr. Griffith-Boscawen.
  MERCHANT SHIPPING (LIMITATION OF LIABILITY OF SHIPOWNERS) BILL
  "To amend The Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, with respect to the limitation of the liability of Shipowners," presented, and read the first time: to he read a Second time upon Monday, 12th June, and to he printed. [Bill 221.]
  SECONDARY EDUCATION BILL
  "For the provision of Secondary Education, and for other purposes connected with Education, "presented, and read the first time; to he read a second time upon Monday, 5th June, and to he printed. [Bill 222.]

  SUPPLY [10TH ALLOTTED DAY].
  Considered in Committee.
  (in the Committee.)

CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1899–1900

  REVENUE DEPARTMENTS.
  £1,316,232, to complete the sum for Inland Revenue.
  MR. WEIRagain called attention to the grievance as to dog licences in the crofter districts.
  MR. HANBURYsaid no doubt, the tax should be administered in the same way all over the country, and he would see if the same principles could not be applied consistently everywhere.
  Resolution agreed to.

CLASS II.
£1;9,446, to complete the sum for Lunacy Commission, England.
£67, to complete the sum for the Mint, including Coinage.
£9,274, to complete the sum for National Debt Office.
MR. WEIRcalled attention to the fact that the officials connected with this Department Were detained till five o'clock on Saturday afternoons, whereas those engaged in other Departments left at two o'clock.
MR. HANBURYsaid lie thought the honorable Member was mistaken in supposing that the other Departments always had a Saturday half-holiday. The Post Office was the only Department he knew of where there was a half-holiday every Saturday. The matter was a half-holiday every Saturday The matter was one which was, to a great extent, left to the discretion of the heads of Departments.
Resolution agreed to.
£14300, to complete the sum for Public Record Office.
£13,to complete the sum for Public Works Loan Commission.
£:26,884 to complete the, sum for Registrar-General; Office, England.
£36,393, to complete the for Works and Public Buldings Office.
Resolutions to be reported
Motion made, and Question proposed—
"That a sum not, exceeding, £13,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1900, for Her Majesty's Foreign and other Secret Services."
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Resolutions to be reported upon Thursday 1st June; Committee to sit again upon Wednesday,31st May.
Whereupon, in pursuance of the Order of the House this day, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put.
Adjourned at a quarter after Six of the clock till Wednesday, 31st May.