§ As amended (by the Standing Committee), considered.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
§ MR. CALDWELL (Lanarkshire, Mid)I do not think this motion should be pressed, considering the way in which this Bill has been dealt with.
§ * THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE (Mr. LONG, Liverpool,) West DerbyThe Bill was one of the first Bills brought in this session. It was very carefully considered by the Standing Committee.
§ MR. CALDWELLIt was not considered very carefully by the House at 427 all. What I have to complain of is the substitution of the authority of the Board of Agriculture for that of the Secretary for Scotland in matters affecting the operation of the Bill in Scotland, and also that six English Acts of Parliament are being applied to Scotland without adequate revision of the machinery, and without attempting in any way to adapt those Acts to the peculiar circumstances of Scotland. For instance, in England certain matters must have the assent of a certain court; what court are you going to set up in Scotland for the purpose? How are you to apply the procedure of an English court to a Scotch court? The difficulties are immense, and they do not seem to have been appreciated by those who framed the Bill. When Bills are sent to a Standing Committee no one takes any particular interest in them. The result is that your Bill is passed through in about two hours, and is supposed to have been examined. Bills which mainly affect Scotland are not considered from a Scotch point of view, and in this particular case I do not find that a single Amendment was moved from a Scotch point of view. I could have understood this proposal if you had been extending it to mansion houses, workmen's dwellings, or matters of that kind; but you are giving these powers for other purposes altogether without any check upon them by this House. I recognise that at the present moment, at this late period of the session, it is no use discussing Bills. Here we are now passing Bills at half-past six on a Wednesday without any discussion. I find that we only passed eleven Acts of Parliament this session before the 17th of this month, whereas since you suspended the rule you have passed about thirty Bills. Will anyone say that that is allowing fair discussion? Is it fair to drive a
§ Bill on like this to-night after keeping us here till half-past two this morning? It is part of the duty of the Opposition to criticise these Bills, and it is in the interests of the country that such criticism should be adequate and effective. You are preventing us from doing that now, and no previous Government ever suspended the rule for such a long period as you have done. You are now applying us to a month of the rack instead of the guillotine. You can keep us here as long as you like, but I may say that your action will form a precedent for the Liberal Government when it comes into power, and all we can do now is simply to protest against this system of legislation going on at this late hour, for you know perfectly well that you are passing a Bill which has not received the discussion which it ought to receive.
§ MR. WARNER (Staffordshire, Lichfield)I think this Bill was rushed through one of its stages very unexpectedly. In its present condition it is a Bill simply to encourage the landlords, and I think the least we can expect from the Government is that they should allow the Debate on the Third Reading to be adjourned. I do not think it is fair to try and rush a Bill like this through in five minutes. The measure has never been seriously considered by the House, for there was scarcely any Debate on the Second Reading. I beg to move, therefore, "that the Debate be now adjourned."
§ Motion made and Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Courtenay Warner.)
§ The House divided:—Ayes, 48; Noes, 125. (Division List, No. 308.)
429| AYES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Rhondda) | Crilly, Daniel | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland) |
| Asher, Alexander | Curran, Thomas B. (Donegal) | Leng, Sir John |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert H | Dalziel, James Henry | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) | Donelan, Captain A. | Macaleese, Daniel |
| Balfour, Rt. Hn. J. B. (Clackm.) | Doogan, P. C. | M'Crae, George |
| Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) | Duckworth, James | M'Ewan, Wil iam |
| Billson, Alfred | Fen wick, Charles | M'Kenna, Reginald |
| Birrell, Augustine | Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond | M'Laren, Charles Benjamin |
| Broadhurst, Henry | Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) | Maddison, Fred. |
| Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn | Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley | Norton, Capt. Cecil William |
| Caldwell, James | Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Carmichael. Sir T. D). Gibson- | Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.) | Oldroyd, Mark |
| Cawley, Frederick | Kinloch, Sir John George S. | Pearson, Sir Weetman D. |
| Colville, John | Langley, Batty | Price, Robert John |
| Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh) | Sullivan. Donal (Westmeath) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Soames, Arthur Wellesley | Wedderburn, Sir William | Mr. Courtenay Warner and |
| Strachey, Edward | Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.) | Mr. Davitt. |
| NOES. | ||
| Arnold, Alfred | Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward | Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) |
| Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. | Fergusson, Rt Hn. SirJ. (Man 'r | Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) |
| Arrol, Sir William | Finch, George H. | Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) |
| Atkinson, Rt Hon. John | Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne | Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath) |
| Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy | Fisher, William Hayes | Newdigate, Francis Alexander |
| Baird, John George Alexander | Fitz Wygram, General Sir F. | Nichol, Donald Ninian |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manc'r) | Flannery, Sir Fortes cue | Platt-Higgins, Frederick |
| Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds | Fletcher, Sir Henry | Powell, Sir Francis Sharp |
| Banbury, Frederick George | Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) | Priestley, Sir W. Overend (Edin. |
| Barnes, Frederic Gorell | Garfit, William | Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward |
| Barton, Dunbar Plunket | Gedge, Sydney | Purvis, Robert |
| Beach, Rt. Hn Sir M. H. (Bristol | Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (C. of Lond.) | Quilter, Sir Cuthbert |
| Bethell, Commander | Goldsworthy, Major-General | Renshaw, Charles Bine |
| Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. | Goschen, Rt Hn G. J (StGeorge's | Riley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W. |
| Bigwood, James | Graham, Henry Robert | Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Charles T. |
| Bill, Charles | Gray, Ernest (West Ham) | Samuel, H. S. (Limehouse) |
| Boulnois, Edmund | Halsey, Thomas Frederick | Savory, Sir Joseph |
| Brassey, Albert | Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert W. | Sharpe, William Edward T. |
| Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John | Hare. Thomas Leigh | Simeon, Sir Barrington |
| Bullard, Sir Harry | Hill Sir Edward Stock (Bristol) | Sinclair, Louis (Romford) |
| Butcher, John George | Holland, Hon. Lionel R. (Bow) | Spencer, Ernest |
| Campbell, Rt Hn. J. A. (Glasgow | Howard, Joseph | Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk) |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles William | Howell, William Tudor | Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East | Johnston, William (Belfast) | Stanley, Lord (Lanes.) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) | Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) | Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. |
| Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. | Knowles, Lee | Stone, Sir Benjamin |
| Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore. | Lawson, John Grant (Yorks) | Strauss, Arthur |
| Cochrane. Hon. Thos. H. A. E. | Llewelyn Sir Dillwyn- (Swans. | Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) |
| Coghill, Douglas Harry | Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine | Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'dUni. |
| Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse | Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham | Thornton, Percy M. |
| Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole | Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverpool) | Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray |
| Cooke, C. W. Radcliffe (Here'd) | Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller | Tritton, Charles Ernest |
| Courtney, Rt. Hon. Leonard H. | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Valentia, Viscount |
| Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge | Lucas-Shad well, William | Wilson, John (Falkirk) |
| Curzon, Viscount | Macartney, W. G. Ellison | Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Macdona, John Cumming | Wrightson, Thomas |
| Denny, Colonel | M'Killop, James | Wylie, Alexander |
| Dorington, Sir John Edward | Manners, Lord Edw. Wm. J. | Wyndham-Quin, Major W.H. |
| Doughty, George | Middlemore, J. Throgmorton | Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy |
| Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- | Milward, Colonel Victor | |
| Doxford, William Theodore | Monk, Charles James | TELLERS FOR THE NOES— |
| Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V | More, R. Jasper (Shropshire) | Sir William Walrond and |
| Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart | Morrell, George Herbert | Mr. Anstruther |
Motion made, and Question, "That this House do now adjourn."—(Mr. Balfour.) put and agreed to.
§ Original Question again proposed.
§ * SIR WALTER FOSTER (Derbyshire, Ilkeston)The Amendments placed on the Paper by the hon. Member for East Northamptonshire I think are well worthy of discussion, for they raise very important questions in regard to the general administration of the Bill, and I regret that we are likely to lose the opportunity of having the opinion of the House expressed upon them. This Bill provides that landowners can, under sanction of a Government Department, borrow money for a longer period and under more favourable conditions than under former Acts. In the early period of this legislation money was practically directed by Statute to be applied to specific purposes, among them 430 being the erection of cottages for labourers on the land, and also the erection of mansions for landlords. What we complain of is that during the last few years the tendency has been to use money borrowed under these Acts rather for the purpose of building mansions than labourers' cottages; and when we see on all sides that the agricultural labourer is housed as badly as the poor in our city slums, I think an opportunity like this should not be lost for putting into an Act of Parliament some direction that the money should be used for the purpose of providing better houses for the working classes. The value of land depends on the number of people who live on it, and sparsely populated land is of comparatively little value. Therefore it is to the interest of every owner of land to encourage as 431 far as possible the number of dwellers on his estate, and I believe we should increase the rural population by putting into this Act a clause which would car-mark a certain proportion of this money for the useful purpose of housing the poor in the agricultural districts. That some such clause is necessary will be seen from the following figures During the earlier years of this legislation we find, to the credit of landowners be it said, that twice as much was spent on the crection of cottages as on mansions. I make the figures to show for the whole period the return covers, 1847 to 1894, that£566,000 was spent on mansions, and £1,067,000 on labourers' dwellings. But if we take the more recent years, 1873 to 1894, the relation is altered, for mansions stand for £549,000, while cottages stand for, £725,000 only; and when we come to the years 1879 to 1894, the period of agricultural depression, the relation is still less satisfactory, for mansions had more spent on them than labourers' cottages, viz., £430,000 as against £377,000. This tendency is still more marked in the years 1895 to 1897. Thus under these Acts more and more, we may infer, is being spent on mansions and less and less on cottages, and the money is not consequently being expended for the benefit of the greater number of the community. We have been unable to amend this Bill either in Committee or on Report, but I think the Government ought even now to endeavour to insert a provision that a certain proportion of any money raised under the Act should be directed into the useful channel of providing better accommodation for the poor in rural districts.
§ * MR. SPEAKERI think I ought to tell the House that it has just come to my knowledge that a mistake has been made by me as regards the question put. The hon. Member for Mid Lanarkshire claimed a short time back that the question: "That this Bill be now considered" should be put, and I, understanding one of the clerks to state that that question had been disposed of on a previous day, declined to put it, and called on the hon. Member who had Amendments on the Paper, but who was absent. I must have misunderstood what was said, for I now find that that stage has not been passed, and therefore I think I ought at once to put the House in possession of the facts. I should suggest that an opportunity should be 432 given for the discussion of the Amendments on the Paper, and probably there would be no difficulty about re-committing the Bill for that purpose.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURCan that be done after the question for the Third Reading has been put from the Chair?
§ * MR. SPEAKERAn hon. Member may move as an Amendment to leave out all after "That" in order to insert, "this Bill be re-committed in respect of the Amendments now on the Paper."
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURIf the Government assent to that course, as we have every desire to do, would it be competent for hon. Members to move and discuss Amendments other than those on the Paper? Technically I believe that would be possible.
§ * MR. SPEAKERThey could not do so if the Amendment was in the form I suggest. The circumstances being somewhat peculiar, I thought that the House would probably be willing to accept some kind of a compromise.
§ MR. A. J. BALFOURThe Government will, of course, not resist any motion to enable the Amendments on the Paper which have been unexpectedly cut out to be discussed, but on the other hand I take it it is agreed on all sides that no other Amendments will be moved.
§
Amendment proposed—
To leave out the words 'now read the third time,' and insert the words 're-committed in respect of the Amendments now on the Notice Paper.' "—(Mr. Buchanan.)
§ Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put and negatived.
§ Words added.
§ Bill recommitted in respect of the Amendments now on the Notice Paper for To-morrow.