HC Deb 13 July 1899 vol 74 cc713-860

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 2:—

MR. D. A. THOMAS (Merthyr Tydfil)

On a point of order I desire to ask your ruling. My point is that this Bill does not comply with Standing Orders, and therefore I submit it ought not to be proceeded with. There can be no manner of doubt that it does not comply with the Standing Orders, and if we have such orders surely we ought to abide by them. I rely on Standing Order No. 45, which lays down very definitely that the precise duration of every temporary law shall be expressed in a distinct clause at the end of the Bill. Now this is certainly a Bill of a temporary nature, yet its precise duration is dealt with at the end of a clause which includes many other points. I know there is a precedent, and it is an unfortunate one—the Agricultural Rating Act, 1896.

* THE CHAIRMAN

I do not wish to express any opinion on this question, but it cannot be raised now.

MR. D. A. THOMAS

Later on, then?

* THE CHAIRMAN

If the hon. Member presses for a decision I must tell him that I think the fact that the Bill has been read a second time has overcome any informality. The point should have been raised on the Second Reading.

MR. D. A. THOMAS

But a Standing Order is a Standing Order.

* THE CHAIRMAN

The objection should have been taken when the Speaker was in the Chair. The question cannot be raised now.

MR. D. A. THOMAS

Shall I be in order in raising it on Clause 4?

* THE CHAIRMAN

We had better proceed with the second clause.

MR. D. A. THOMAS

At any rate, I will propose an Amendment.

* THE CHAIRMAN

As regards the Amendment of the Member for Lichfield, it appears to me to be a pure matter of form, and to have no substance in it.

MR. WARNER (Staffordshire, Lichfield)

My reason for putting down the Amendment is this—that the ingenuity of some lawyer might nullify the real object of the clause, and therefore if you put in some unnecessary words you may enable a lawyer to do something which is not contemplated by this House. I beg to move this Amendment. I do not think there is any harm in leaving out these words. I do not suppose that the Minister for Agriculture will approve of it, but I think the Amendment ought to be considered by the House.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 13, to leave out 'unless the context otherwise requires.'"—(Mr. Warner.)

Question proposed— That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause.

THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir R. B. FINLAY,) Inverness Burghs

These words are in the ordinary common form, and I hope the hon. Member will not persist in the Amendment.

MR. LAMBERT (Devon, South Molton)

It seems to me that these words should not be inserted. We are not all blessed with a legal education like the Solicitor-General. I contend that a Bill ought to be so drafted that the context should not be required to express its meaning. I am one of those who have often complained of Acts of Parliament being badly drafted, and I have sometimes difficulty in understanding them. Nor am I the only one in that position; for the principal duty of the lawyers is to argue with one another as to the meaning of Acts of Parliament. On the ground of simplicity of drafting, and for the benefit of people outside legal circles, I think the words should be left out.

SIR R. B. FINLAY

They can do no harm.

MR. ELLIS J. GRIFFITH (Anglesey)

This Bill is much more important than that one of its provisions should be justified on the ground that "it will do no harm." I hope the Bill is going to do some good and not harm.

MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON (Dundee)

I sympathise with the Solicitor-General in the line he has taken in saying that these words are in "common form," and that there is no reason against their being in the Bill.

MR. LAMBERT

The next Amendment on the Paper, which is in my name, is, in page 1, line 13, after "requires," to insert— The expression of 'conforming owner' shall mean owner who acts in strict confor- mity with the doctrines and principles of the Reformed Church of England.

* THE CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member knows that the Amendment which he had on the Paper the first day the Bill was in Committee was ruled out of order, and that this similar Amendment cannot possibly be in order.

MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON

Yesterday afternoon the First Lord of the Treasury, answering a speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouth, said it was an extraordinary proposition to say that Scotland and Ireland had anything to do with this Bill. The right hon. Gentleman's meaning was perfectly plain—namely, that it would be from Ireland and Scotland that would come some of the money at least required by the Bill. When I listened to the right hon. the First Lord it occurred to me whether it was not possible that Scotland and Ireland were not even directly interested in this Bill, and that it was the duty of the representatives of Scottish and Irish constituencies to see that this Bill was limited entirely to England, and that it should by no possibility be applied to Scotland and Ireland. In looking over the Bill—and I believe that this Bill has been more closely scrutinised than any other during this session—I was surprised to find that there is not within its four corners one single word which expressly and specifically limits the application of the Bill to England. The object of the two Amendments which I have placed on the paper—both of which are in "common form" so much approved by the Solicitor-General, and therefore ought to commend themselves to him—is to make it perfectly plain that the Bill is limited to England only, and does not apply to Scotland or Ireland. The first Amendment I have put down is to define the Local Taxation Account mentioned in the Bill. I propose to add words in Subsection 2 to the effect that "the expression 'The Local Taxation Account' shall have the same meaning as in the Local Government Act, 1888." Now, sir, I would first call the attention of the House to the Estate Duty Grant. The legal definition of the Estate Duty Grant is contained in the Finance Act of 1894, section 19, which is referred to in the Definition Clause proposed by the Government in this Bill. It says that in substitution for the grant of Probate Duties under certain named Acts—no reference is made to the grant out of the Local Taxation Account, 1894—a new grant is to be made called the Estate Duty Grant, and that grant is specifically stated to be "one sum." I direct the attention of hon. Members to the fact that the grant we are dealing with is "one grant"; it is declared by the Act of Parliament to be "one sum," not three separate sums—one sum which is to be paid under the provisions of three separate Acts of Parliament. Now, it is quite true that the Local Government Act of 1888 creates and defines for the purposes of that Act, and not, so far as I am aware, for any other purpose whatever, a Local Taxation Account; anti two other Acts of Parliament created two finance accounts, which were named "Local Taxation (Scotland) Account," and "Local Taxation (Ireland) Account," for the purposes of those Statutes respectively. There are, therefore, three Taxation Accounts, and what we want to make perfectly clear is, that the account from which the money is to come for the purposes of this Bill is the Local Taxation Account mentioned in the Local Government Act of 1888. That is a matter we are entitled to demand on the score of ordinary decencies of Parliamentary draftsmanship; on the score of its being ordinary "common form," to which the Solicitor - General attaches so much importance. This is not the first time the Government has dealt with the Local Taxation Account. In the year 1896 they passed an Act—the Agricultural Rates Act—in which they dealt with the Local Taxation Account, although that Act was clearly and expressly limited to England—while this Act is not limited to England by any single word—by an express provision in the Act itself and in the title of the Act, in accordance with loyalty to "common form" to which the Solicitor-General professes so much attachment. The Government proposed, in the definition clause in the Act of 1896, that the expression "Local Taxation Account" should have the same meaning as in the Local Government Act of 1888. That is the very Amendment that I want to move in this Bill—that the expression "Local Taxation Account" should have the same meaning in this Bill as in the Local Government Act of 1888. I do this because I think it is perfectly necessary and proper to safeguard the other two Local Taxation Accounts, particularly inasmuch as the fund granted by the Finance Act of 1894 is declared to be "one sum," although there are three separate charges upon it. I would like to say a word about my other Amendment, because it is related to this one. I think both are necessary, but possibly one would be sufficient. The second Amendment I want to move is to include in the Title Clause of the Bill, which runs thus at present:—"This Act may be cited as the Tithe Rent-charge (Rates) Act, 1889," the words "and shall extend to England only." If the President of the Board of Agriculture or the Solicitor-General will tell me that they will accept the second Amendment, it may not be necessary to proceed with the first; although, if they accept either, there will be no difficulty about accepting both. At all events, it appears to me absolutely necessary, and I trust that "common form" will induce them to assent to one or other or both of the Amendments of which I have given notice. I cannot see how they can do otherwise. There is nothing in either of the Amendments against the principle of the Bill or against the course taken by the Government on a precisely similar occasion.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 13, after the word 'requires,' to insert the words, '(a) The expression "the Local Taxation Account" shall have the same meaning as in the Local Government Act, 1888.'"—(Mr. Edmund Robertson.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

SIR R. B. FINLAY

I think I can satisfy my hon. and learned friend that both the Amendments are quite unnecessary, and that this Bill does not extend to Scotland or Ireland, but extends to England only. The Amendments are absolutely unnecessary, because there is no tithe rent-charge in Scotland; there are only teinds; and in Ireland there is now no tithe rent-charge attached to the benefice. So that in the very nature of things the Bill can only extend to England and Wales, and, therefore, the first Amendment is absolutely unnecessary, and will introduce words into the Bill which are not in the least necessary. The second Amendment is also not at all wanted. The Local Taxation Account is limited to England and Wales. If my hon. and learned friend will refer to Sections 20 and 21 of the Local Government Act of 1888, he will see that "Local Taxation Account" is the proper statutory title for England and Wales. The statutory titles of the Scottish and Irish Accounts are the Local Taxation (Scotland) Account, and the Local Taxation (Ireland) Account. I think my hon. and learned friend will see that both of his Amendments are unnecessary.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT (Monmouthshire, W.)

The Solicitor-General's explanation is the most extraordinary I have ever heard. Under the Bill the Commissioners of Inland Revenue are ordered out of the sums payable by them to the Local Taxation Account on account of the Estate Duty Grant to pay one-half of the rates as the tithe. It may be that tithes only exist in England, but the Local Taxation Accounts for Scotland and Ireland are bound to contribute unless a distinction is drawn between the accounts of the three countries. That is perfectly obvious on the face of it. The Solicitor-General is going against the authority of his own Government. If there is the smallest foundation for what he has said, the insertion of the distinction in the Agricultural Rating Act is perfectly senseless. It was seen perfectly plainly in 1896 that it was necessary to state that the fund to be charged was the Local Taxation Account within the meaning of the Local Government Act, 1888, and I would ask what objection there is now to make the thing clear? Let the Government say why they refuse to do now what they did in the case of the Act of 1896. I would like to hear from the Solicitor-General or the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill why they refuse to give protection to Scotland and Ireland in the case of this Bill. The Bill in its general terms is equally applicable to England, Scotland, or Ireland. It is an extraordinary thing that Unionists should not know that. I should have thought it was a part of their education to learn that. The Opposition know perfectly well why the Government refuse to give any reason for their action. It is because they are afraid to have the Bill discussed.

MR. LONG

The fact that the Government refuse to accept an Amendment does not prevent the Bill from being discussed. The right hon. Gentleman asked why the Government did not do in this Bill what was done in the Act of 1896. The answer I give is this: I have the greatest respect for the right hon. Gentleman's opinion, but when it conies to a question of legal interpretation I prefer to take the advice of my hon. and learned friend the Solicitor-General. My hon. and learned friend holds that there was no necessity for any additional words, and the Government agree with him. I have taken the very best advice before adopting the phraseology in the Bill, and I am advised that "the Local Taxation Account" is the statutory description of the account limited to England and Wales. If unnecessary words were put into the Act of 1896, surely that is no reason why it should be done now. There is not the smallest doubt as to the fund out of which the money is to come, and, therefore, the Government decline to accept the Amendment.

* MR. HEMPHILL (Tyrone, N.)

As an Irish Member, I must certainly rise to support the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Dundee. I do not think it is fair to leave it open to question in a court of justice as to whether the Local Taxation (Ireland) Account might not be encroached upon for the purpose of this Bill. To my knowledge there have been several cases of the judges of the Court of Appeal differing as to the construction of what were considered in this House as very clear words. That being the case I must, on behalf and in protection of the Irish Local Taxation Fund, beg the House to pass this Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Dundee. It is quite true that at present in Ireland there are no tithes attached to benefices, but tithes exist in Ireland as they always did, though they are now vested in a different body. But, as was pointed out by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouth, the point is not whether tithe exists in Ireland; the point is whether the money which is taken by this Bill for the relief of the English parsons could possibly be taken out of the Irish Fund. That is what I want to make perfectly clear. As has been said—and it was obvious to everyone in this House—an Act of Parliament primâ facie applies to the three parts of the United Kingdom, and it requires express words to exclude Ireland or Scotland. The Local Taxation Account (Ireland) and the Local Taxation Account (Scotland) are all part and parcel of the Local Taxation Account. There is nothing in the wording of the Local Taxation Account to exclude Ireland or Scotland. Why leave it open to doubt? Is it for the mere purpose of procedure, or for the purpose of the carriage of this Bill through the House, in addition to all the powers of closure—closure of clauses and closure in every shape and form—that this Amendment is rejected? It cannot possibly do any harm. It may prevent the possibility of a mistake, and I think the Irish Members would be wanting in their duty if they did not, as far as in them lay, support this Amendment to make it clear that the Irish funds shall not be encroached upon for the benefit of the clergy.

MR. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn Regis)

What the Act of 1894 did was to substitute an entirely new procedure for that of 1888. In this case it is not a question from which of the Local Taxation Accounts this money is to be taken. What this Bill does is to take the money out of the precedent heap which is collected by the Exchequer before it is allocated to the Local Taxation Accounts at all. The sum which has to be passed is absolutely undetermined. It is true we have an estimate of £87,000, but that is a very uncertain estimate, and the whole amount is charged, not to the Local Taxation Account, but to the fund from which the three Local Taxation Accounts are fed. If that is so, it is very necessary to see that no part of that part of the Estate Duty which is devoted to the purposes of technical educations is diverted from its proper channel by this Bill. If there is no desire to avoid discussion on this measure, this is a case for avoiding ambiguity. Let us not have a Bill which is going to lead to lawsuits on matters like this, upon which your profession is that you are doing right and justice. Why cannot the Government accept these simple words? The reason they do not is not because they wish to avoid a discussion on the Report stage, because I do not think the Government would be paltry or mean enough to do such a thing as that. If I were in charge of a Bill, I should welcome anything that would make the Bill more certain in its operation, and I think in this case there is a very strong case made for the acceptance by the Government of this Amendment.

SIR R. B. FINLAY

The hon. Gentleman says that this money is to be taken out of the sums payable to the Local Taxation Account. Now, there are three Local Taxation Accounts—for Ireland, and Scotland. We say this money should be taken out of "The Local Taxation Account," and that affects England and Wales only. The hon. Gentleman has suggested that the matter might come into a court of law, but I do not see how it can possibly do so.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

The Commissioners of Inland Revenue take the course the law prescribes, and that is the course they will take. It not only can be brought into a court of law, but will be. The opposition of the right hon. Gentleman is the most extraordinary I ever heard; it is perfectly plain that the interest of the English ratepayer is that he shall contribute as little as possible, and of course Ireland and Scotland must contribute their share from some source or other.

SIR R. B. FINLAY

From what source?

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

Does the right hon. Gentleman say, where three people are required to pay, that one shall pay, but that he will not have a form by which the amount due from the other two should be collected? Here are three Statutory Accounts to pay for the endowment of the English clergy, and yet he says he will have no form by which to compel payment from two of them. I should say that outside the House of Commons the right hon. and learned Gentleman—

SIR R. B. FINLAY

I should say out side the House what I have said here.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

His learning and ingenuity would not fail him like this outside the House. I can understand why he was not anxious to speak upon this Bill. I agree with the hon. Member for King's Lynn that it is intended to pay this money out of the fund from which the Local Taxation Account is fed, and who can say what that money is? To say the least, that is a point that should be cleared up, and it would be very satisfactory if the Solicitor-General would explain to us why he put into the Agricultural Rating Act that particular clause.

DR. CLARK (Caithness)

I think it is desirable that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue should know where they are to get this money from. As this Bill, as I understood, was only to apply to England, I did not propose to interfere in this discussion; but now we have these very ambiguous words, I think some explanation is necessary. This ambiguity ought to be made clear. In the 22nd Clause of the Local Government Act the Commons were empowered to take four-fifths of one-half, and leave one-fifth undetermined, and that one-fifth was afterwards divided between Ireland and Scotland. But this is an interception of the money before it goes into any of these accounts. This amount is to be abstracted from the total sum, and a portion will have to be taken from the Irish and Scotch Local Taxation Accounts. It appears to me these are the facts of the case. If the words "Local Taxation Account" are to be retained, you should determine whether they refer to the Local Taxation Account created by the Local Government (England) Act, 1888. What we want is to make it perfectly clear that the Local Taxation Account mentioned is the account created by that Act. Otherwise, it would be possible to take the amount required out of the whole sum. Indeed, it looks to me that the Bill as it at present stands would compel you to take the amount out of the whole sum. The Amendment makes it clear that the money is to be taken from the sum payable under the 22nd Clause of the Local Government (England) Act, 1888; and, unless it is inserted, the money can be taken from the whole amount contributed to the three funds.

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR (Liverpool, Scotland)

I have scrupulously abstained from taking part in this Debate, for two reasons. Firstly, the Bill refers to the clergy of a different religion from my own, and I have no desire to interfere with the inner concerns of another creed. Up to this Amendment I had been under the impression that this Bill referred to England and to England alone. I have listened carefully to the discussion which has taken place, and I agree with the learned Serjeant on the Front Opposition Bench that the Bill in its present form is calculated to involve Irishmen. I candidly confess that I approach any financial Bill in which Ireland may be involved with a certain amount of perhaps undue and exaggerated apprehension. Every Irishman, irrespective of political parties, and almost without exception, is strongly of opinion that our country is seriously overtaxed. That opinion is backed by the Report of a Royal Commission mainly consisting of Englishmen, and in face of that Report we are still without any serious attempt to relieve us of this injustice. With this feeling and knowledge, we approach every financial Bill with the suspicion, and even the conviction, in our minds that our country is in some way or other cheated. That may be an unfair, but it is a strong suspicion. The second reason why I object to the clause is that this Bill is, for a good or a bad reason, going to add to the endowment of the clergy of the Church of England. We have no Church in Ireland endowed by a single penny of public money, and the policy has been laid down by successive Acts of Parliament that religious equality should be established by an absolute refusal to endow any Church. In face of that we are now presented with a Bill, one of the effects of which may be to tax our people in Ireland, who are mainly of a different religion, for the purpose of endowing the great, wealthy Protestant establishment of this country. You are asking a nation entirely free from establishment to contribute to the endowment of a Church which is Protestant and English. That appears to me to be an intolerable position. The case of the Government is that our apprehension is not justified, and that Ireland cannot be taxed under this Bill. In questions of finance and in the interpretation of statutes I have no right whatever to press my own opinion. But I have listened to this Debate, and when I find the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouthshire, who passed this Act, and the hon. Member for King's Lynn, who was his most constant, persistent, and able critic, in absolute agreement regarding the interpretation of this statute, what am I to do? If the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member who differed in every other respect in regard to this Bill, agree as to its interpretation in this particular, I, as a humble layman, must come to the conclusion that their opinion is more likely to be sound than not. Under these circumstances, a case is made out for doubt and ambiguity. All I can say is as a simple uninformed layman in financial matters that it appears to me that, if a certain amount is to be taken out of a common fund, each contributory to that fund is liable to pay a portion of that amount, and you cannot diminish the fund without diminishing the share of each member of it. Therefore, if you diminish this common fund by a contribution to the English Church, you thereby diminish that portion of the fund belonging to Ireland. All I am concerned to say is that either there is a case of ambiguity or there is not. Surely if there is not, Ireland ought to be relieved from the apprehension of being compelled to pay out of her poverty and Catholicity for the rich Protestant Church of England. Under these circumstances I hope the Government will see their way to accept this Amendment. As to the idea that you must pass this Bill in the exact words in which it was introduced in order to avoid another stage, my experience has always been that such attempts, like curses, come home to roost.

MR. STEVENSON (Suffolk, Eye)

I cannot conceive any hon. Member, whether he be a friend or an opponent of the Bill, desiring that this money should to the slightest extent come from Scotch or Irish sources for the purpose of helping an arrangement with which neither Scotland nor Ireland has absolutely anything to do. It is perfectly clear from what has fallen from the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Agriculture and the Solicitor-General that there is distinct ambiguity with regard to this term in the Bill. It is perfectly true that a different form of words was adopted in 1896 from that we are now disscussing, but still there is a possibility that some ambiguity may arise in future which may have to be decided at very great cost and after very considerable delay by a court of law. The position with regard to the fund at the disposal of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue may be compared to a great river which divides itself into three streams and forms a sort of delta. Eighty per cent. of the whole volume of water flows through one stream, 11 per cent. through another, and 9 per cent. through the third. What the supporters of this Bill desire to do is to intercept a certain portion of this volume of water for the purpose of irrigating one portion of the delta. In order to intercept the water it is necessary to construct a dam, and the question is whether it is to be constructed at a point above or below where the river divides itself into three streams. Obviously, if the water is intercepted above the dam, there is a possibility of the other channels running drier than before. What we want to know is the precise point where the dam is to be constructed, and whether the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to adopt some form of Amendment which will render any ambiguity absolutely impossible, and which will show in the clearest and most explicit language that he intends that the water shall be intercepted not above but below the point where the river divides itself. Should the right hon. Gentleman refuse to permit an Amendment of this kind at this stage, whatever air of injured innocence he may assume, the country will come to the conclusion that the object of the right hon. Gentleman is to prevent the possibility of time being spent on the Report stage, during which some of these matters might be put before the House and the country with even greater clearness than is possible at the present stage.

MR. CARSON (Dublin University)

I should like some information, before I make up my mind upon this point, as to whether any of the sums coming to the Local Taxation Account are sums of money coming from Ireland or Scotland. If not, I cannot see what need there is for these arguments at all. If none of this money comes from Ireland or Scotland, this proposal cannot possibly make any difference to either of those countries. I desire to be assured that none of this money is payable to the Local Taxation Account out of the probate duties from Ireland or from Scotland. I know that under the Act of 1888 there are separate accounts for Ireland and Scotland, and I always was under the impression that special provision was made for Scotch and Irish accounts, and if these are really separate accounts and no money comes to this fund either from Ireland or Scotland which is paid into the Local Taxation Account, I really do not see what we are arguing about.

SIR R. B. FINLAY

I am not sure that my right hon. friend was in the House when I referred to the section which deals with this question. The Local Taxation Account was established under the Local Government Act of 1888, which applies only to England and Wales. The 21st Section is the one which deals with the probate duty, to which the estate duty now corresponds. Under that section fourth-fifths of the probate duty has to be paid into the Bank of England to the Local Taxation Account, and that has to be done in the manner prescribed in the Act. That is the Local Taxation Account, and it is on that account that this Bill rests. The Probate Duties (Scotland and Ireland) Act was passed in 1888 also, and the first section of that Act provided for the opening of two perfectly separate and distinct accounts. I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for calling my attention to this matter, and it is perfectly clear that the Local Taxation Account relates to England, and to England alone. There are, therefore, three separate accounts. One is entitled the Local Taxation Account for England and Wales; the second is the Local Taxation (Scotland) Account for Scotland; and the third is the Local Taxation (Ireland) Account, which relates to Ireland. These two accounts for Scotland and Ireland are established under the Act of 1888, to which I have already referred. The matter is perfectly clear, and I have listened with very great surprise to the doubts expressed by the right hon. Gentleman opposite.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

I should like to know what are the suits that are going on every day against the Crown and the Commissioners of Inland Revenue. The Solicitor-General has just made a most extraordinary statement.

SIR R. B. FINLAY

The right hon. Gentleman must really forgive my interrupting him, but he is absolutely misinterpreting what I said. What I said was that the right hon. Gentleman cannot suggest that a court of law has authority to control the Crown in the conversion of the revenue. The court of law can decide as to whether different people should pay the revenue or not.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

This is a most extraordinary statement to come from a Tory Solicitor-General, who, I believe, is probably a Liberal Unionist. But the right hon. Gentleman has not answered one question, which will really throw more light upon this matter than anything he has yet said, The right hon. Gentleman opposite was responsible for the drafting of the Agricultural Land Rating Act of 1896, and we all recollect how the Minister for Agriculture of that day was supported by him throughout all the discussions in this House.

MR. LONG

I was not concerned in that measure.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

At any rate we all recollect the personal and active part which was taken by the Solicitor-General in that discussion. Now, his argument is that when you use the words "Local Taxation Account" there cannot be the smallest doubt that that means the English account and no other. If that be so, then why did the hon. and learned Gentleman put these words into the Act of 1896: The expression 'Local Taxation Account' has the same meaning as in the Local Government Act of 1888. If it is so clear—and he has expressed his surprise that I should have entertained any doubt on the matter—what doubt was there in his mind which made it necessary for him to explain those words "Local Taxation Account," when he believes, as he has just stated, that they are absolutely unnecessary? I will tell the right hon. Gentleman why he put in those words. He put them in because he knew that there was an ambiguity about the phrase "Local Taxation Account."

SIR R. B. FINLAY

I had nothing whatever to do with the drafting of the Act of 1896, although, as the right hon. Gentleman has stated, I took an active part in the discussion. I had nothing whatever to do with the drafting of the measure, and in my opinion these words are unnecessary.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

It is a very remarkable thing, because that Act was drafted by one of the ablest men, who is now, unfortunately, not in the service of the Government. But he was a man who would not be likely to put in any un- necessary words. But whoever put in those words knew that, as there were three Local Taxation Accounts, to use the words "Local Taxation Account" was to use an ambiguous phrase. That was the reason why the words were inserted, for it was thought necessary and proper to clearly define the general phrase "Local Taxation Account" as meaning the Local Taxation Account mentioned in the Act of 1888, which was the English Local Taxation Account. That is the reading of the Bill. It is perfectly obvious that this question might be raised in a court of law, and it is specified in the Agricultural Rating Act. In this Act, however, you have given no definition of the words, and, therefore, it will follow the general rule that as there is not the limitation which was put into the Act of 1896 it falls into the ordinary rule, that of an Act of Parliament which applies to all the countries alike; and there being three Local Taxation Accounts, and as you have made no specification as to which account is meant, as you thought it necessary to do in the Act of 1896, I certainly think that it is a reasonable argument to raise at this stage, and I would again ask the Government to reconsider their decision. When the Government were dealing with the Agricultural Rating Act these words were defined; and why is it not necessary to define them in this case? Why should the Government object to insert at the end of this Act the words, "this Act shall not apply to Ireland and Scotland," which would make the matter quite clear? It would be idle to pretend that the House of Commons and the country do not know why it is that you do not do this. What is the use of having all this argument upon this subject, for it simply amounts to this, that you refuse to do in 1899 what you did in 1896.

MR. LONG

I rise not only for the purpose of answering the questions which have been put to me, but also to make an appeal to the House. It is idle and unnecessary for the right hon. Gentleman opposite to say that the Government are resisting this Amendment because they do not desire to have a Report stage. If I may say so, with great respect, I think it is unnecessary to meet a statement of that kind at all. Our position is precisely the same position in which the right hon. Gentleman himself has repeatedly been placed, and if he comes into office he may find himself in that same position again. The Opposition hold that the words which have been proposed ought to be inserted. We hold, acting upon the best legal advice which we can command, that these words are superfluous and unnecessary. There is no mystery about this matter. The right hon. Gentleman asks why the definition was put in the Act of 1896 and is to be left out of the Act of 1899? I may say that in the original draft of the Bill those words were inserted, and they were afterwards taken out, but not for any evil or mysterious purpose. (Opposition cries of "What words?") Why, the words that it is now proposed to insert. There is absolutely nothing to conceal in this matter. The words were taken out of this Act because, as used in the Act of 1896, they were considered to be absolutely unnecessary and superfluous, and because it was thought that the words "Local Taxation Account" was a statutory and well-understood name of a fund which only applied to England; and, therefore, as this particular fund was not known by any other name, it was deemed unnecessary and undesirable to insert those words. There was no intention whatever of deceiving Parliament. The Ministers on this side of the House who are responsible, are satisfied that there is no necessity whatever for the insertion of those words, because the proposal, as it stands, conveys the necessary meaning; and because the Opposition take a different view we are accused of being unreasonable, and of desiring to avoid a Report stage simply because we will not allow hon. Gentlemen opposite to dictate to us what we shall do in regard to our own Bill. I think hon. Gentlemen opposite are really carrying their opposition to this Bill to a very unreasonable extent when they ask us to accept Amendments which are altogether unnecessary, and which the Opposition alone think are desirable. I do not think there is any reason for hon. Members to be alarmed at this proposal. My real object, however, in rising is that I desire to make an appeal to hon. Gentlemen opposite. We have a great many Amendments and new clauses still before us, and I have no doubt many hon. Members opposite desire to discuss them. I do, therefore, appeal to hon. Gentlemen opposite whether it is not now desirable that the Committee should be allowed to proceed at once to a Division upon this particular point. Every argument, I think, for and against has been fully and ably stated. The Government, at any rate, are certainly unconvinced, and they cannot agree to the introduction of this Amendment merely because it is harmless. Under these circumstances I think we might fight the point out now in the Division Lobby.

MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON

It appears to me that the confession contained in the speech which the right hon. Gentleman has just delivered has destroyed absolutely the only remnant of objection which one could possibly have to the insertion of these words. The right hon. Gentleman tells us now that these words were before him in the original draft. That is to say the distinguished draftsman upon whom reliance has always been placed by this House thought that these words were necessary.

MR. LONG

I beg the hon. Member's pardon, for the draftsman struck out the words himself.

MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON

That is another confession. We shall get at the real history of these words by-and-bye. I should like to know how the words came to be put in the draft at all if the draftsman himself took them out. I will go a step further and say that the great significance of this Debate is the stubborn resistance which the Government have offered to the words which were in the Bill originally, and which they have now confessed were harmless. I will not make any imputation as to the motive which induced them to offer this resistance, but I will go on and make a confession equally candid. I will admit, for my own part, that if the Government had not inserted those words in the Act of 1896, and if they had not defined these words in two previous Acts, I should not have thought it necessary to raise the question now; but when I find that in the Act of 1896 they thought it necessary to define the words by a special reference to a particular Act, and when four years afterwards they propose another Bill using the same words, but deliberately and for express purposes refuse to limit those words by inserting the same definition, there is certainly something very suspicious about the matter. The right hon. Gentleman him- self now admits that this Amendment is not unreasonable.

Mr. LONG

I admit nothing of the kind.

MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON

I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that, but I will not press the matter an inch further. My object was to make it perfectly certain, according to the common forms followed by draftsmen who prepare the Bills for this House, that this Bill relates to England only. I told the right hon. Gentleman previously that if he would allow that common form to be added to the Bill applying it to England only, I should make no particular point about the Local Taxation Account, and I should be content with his declaration that the Act was to extend to England only. Reference has been made to Ireland. The Irish Tithe Rent-charge Bill is now before the House, the Attorney-General for Ireland being responsible for it. That is a Bill in which it is made perfectly clear in the title and in every clause that you are dealing with the Irish Tithe Rent-charge in Ireland only, and there is not the faintest doubt about it. The Irish Attorney-General does not hesitate to use the ordinary common form, for the title clause runs: This Bill may be cited as the Irish Tithe Rent-charge Bill, and shall extend to Ireland only. I want corresponding words introduced into this Bill, and if the right hon. Gentleman will promise to accept a similar definition clause my objection to the vagueness of his proposal will be entirely removed, and I shall not even advise my friends to go to a Division. If the right hon. Gentleman does not do this I am afraid we shall have to put hon. members to the trouble of another Division.

MR. VICARY GIBBS (Hertfordshire, St. Albans)

As a hearty supporter of this Bill, may I be allowed to make a suggestion to my right hon, friend in the interests of expedition? We have already spent about two hours upon this point, and if the right hon. Gentleman does not wish to accept these words himself I desire to ask him if he will agree that they shall be introduced in another place; or, at any rate, will he promise to use the influence of the Government in that direction? It seems to me that that would meet the whole case. I do not myself agree that there is any real danger in this matter, and I merely rise in the hope that I may persuade my right hon. friend to get this difficulty out of the way.

MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.)

I think the course of this discussion has shown quite clearly that even experts differ in their interpretation of these Statutes. But is there any wonder that we should be alarmed at this particular thing when we come to consider what will be the course of procedure in carrying out the enactments contained in the provisions of this Bill? The course of procedure will be that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue will be pressed, to use the words of the hon. Member for King's Lynn, to "create an interception," and this thing will all be settled behind the scenes, and it will be months, and perhaps even more than a year, after the money has all been paid away before we shall be able to find out in what proportion the distribution of the money has been made. It is not an extraordinary demand to make that this I question should be put beyond the region of doubt and controversy, which it is quite easy to do. In their proposal the Government, instead of inserting a reference which would have left no possibility of doubt as to the course of procedure which was to be adopted by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, depart altogether from the precedent of previous Acts of Parliament. Therefore it is natural that we should be doubtful and a trifle nervous when we see this departure from the ordinary procedure in previous Acts, and it is ridiculous for the Minister in charge of the Bill and the Solicitor-General to laugh at the doubts which arise in our minds, and to endeavour to make out that there is no danger whatever. What we are afraid of is very simply stated. It may be that a court of law, after careful investigation, would decide this matter on the lines laid down by the Solicitor-General, but it may mean that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue may take a different view, and say that it was the meaning of the Statute that they should first of all take the Estate Duty Grant, which is made under that clause out of the £30,000 which is required by this Act, and then proceed to distribute that grant in the parishes which are laid down in the provisions of the Act, and which may be applied to England, Scotland, and Ireland. We have had to suffer more than once in the past from friendly calculations of this kind; and in this case it would not be a too friendly calculation, for the money does not get into the Treasury at all. The whole discussion is just another illustration of the inconvenience and objectionable character of the new finance— this system of interceptions of the taxpayers' money on its way to the Treasury. It must lead to the greatest possible misunderstanding and difficulty. At all events, it is perfectly clear that there

is danger of an ambiguity and nothing that has been said by the Government affords any solid reason against the removal of that ambiguity by the insertion of the words of the Amendment.

MR. WALTER LONG

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 250; Noes, 173. (Division List, No. 250.)

AYES.
Allsopp, Hon. George Charrington, Spencer Goschen, Rt Hn G. J. (St George'
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Chelsea, Viscount Goschen, George J. (Sussex)
Arnold, Alfred Clarke, Sir Edward (Plymouth Goulding, Edward Alfred
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Graham, Henry Robert
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Coddington, Sir William Green, Walford D (Wednesbury
Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy Cohen, Benjamin Louis Greville, Hon. Ronald
Bailey, James (Walworth) Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Gull, Sir Cameron
Baillie, James E. B. (Inverness Colston, Chas. Ed. H. Athole Gunter, Colonel
Baird, John George Alexander Compton, Lord Alwyne Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Balcarres, Lord Cook, Fred, Lucas (Lambeth) Halsey, Thomas Frederick
Baldwin, Alfred Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Ed. T. D. Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.
Balfour, Rt. Hon. G.W.(Leeds Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge Hanson, Sir Reginald
Banbury, Frederick George Cripps, Charles Alfred Hardy, Laurence
Barnes, Frederic Gorell Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Helder, Augustus
Barry, Rt Hn. A. H. S. (Hunts Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton) Henderson, Alexander
Barry, Sir Francis T. (Winds'r Cruddas, William Donaldson Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter
Bartley, George C. T. Cubitt, Hon. Henry Hoare, Ed. Brodie (Hampstead)
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Curzon, Viscount Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)
Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hobhouse, Henry
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Brist'l Davies, Sir Horatio D.(Chatham Holland, Hn. Lionel R. (Bow)
Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Hornby, Sir William Henry
Beckett, Ernest William Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon Howard, Joseph
Beresford, Lord Charles Dorington, Sir John Edward Howell, William Tudor
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Doughty, George Hozier, Hn. James H. Cecil
Biddulph, Michael Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Hubbard, Hn. Evelyn
Bigwood, James Doxford, William Theodore Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies
Bill, Charles Drucker, A. Jebb, Richard Claverhouse
Blundell, Colonel Henry Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick
Bond, Edward Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Jenkins, Sir John Jones
Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Jolliffe, Hon. H. George
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Fardell, Sir T. George Kemp, George
Boulnois, Edmund Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H.
Bousfield, William Robert Fergusson. Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc. Kenyon, James
Brassey, Albert Finch, George H. Lafone, Alfred
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)
Brookfield, A. Montagu Fisher, William Hayes Lawson, John Grant (Yorks)
Bullard, Sir Harry Fison, Frederick William Lea, Sir Thomas (Londonderry
Burdett-Coutts, W. Fitz Wygram, General Sir F. Leighton, Stanley
Butcher, John George Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset
Campbell, Rt Hn J.A.(Glasgow Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn (Swan'a
Carson, Rt. Hon. Edward Galloway, William Johnson Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.
Cavendish, R. F. (N.Lancs.) Gedge, Sydney Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Gibbons, J. Lloyd Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lon. Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liver'l)
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Giles, Charles Tyrrell Lorne, Marquess of
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Gilliat, John Saunders Lowe, Francis William
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc. Gordon, Hon. John Edward Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Lubbock, Rt. Hn. Sir John
Lucas-Shadwell, William Pierpoint, Robert Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Pilkington, R.(Lancs Newton) Stock, James Henry
Macartney, W. G. Ellison Platt-Higgins, Frederick Strauss, Arthur
Macdona, John Cumming Priestley, Sir W Overend (Edin. Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
MacIver, David (Liverpool) Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Maclean, James Mackenzie Purvis, Robert Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd U.)
M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edin. W.) Quilter, Sir Cuthbert Thorburn, Walter
Malcolm, Ian Rankin, Sir James Thornton, Percy M.
Martin, Richard Buddulph Rentoul, James Alexander Tollemache, Henry James
Melville, Beresford Valentine Richardson, Sir Thos. (Hartlep'l Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W. Tritton, Charles Ernest
Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas. J. Ritche, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Valentia, Viscount
Milner, Sir Frederick George Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Wanklyn, James Leslie
Milton, Viscount Round, James Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent)
Milward, Colonel Victor Royds Clement Molyneux Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Monk, Charles James Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd
Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.) Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert Williams, J. Powell-(Brim.)
Moore, William (Antrim, N.) Savory, Sir Joseph Willox, Sir John Archibald
More, R. Jasper (Shropshire) Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Momn'thsh. Seely, Charles Hilton Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath
Morrison, Walter Seton-Karr, Henry Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford Sharpe, William Edward T. Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Muntz, Philip A. Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.) Wylie, Alexander
Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) Simeon, Sir Barrington Wyndham, George
Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) Sinclair, Louis (Romford) Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Smith, J. Parker (Lanarks.) Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Myers, William Henry Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Newark, Viscount Spencer, Ernest Younger, William
Nicol, Donald Ninian Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)
Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)
O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Stanley, Sir H. M. (Lambeth) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Penn, John Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Percy, Earl Stephens, Henry Charles
NOES.
Abraham, Wm. (Rhondda) Davies, M. Vanghan-(Cardigan Johnson-Ferguson, J. Edw.
Allan, William (Gateshead) Davitt, Michael Joicey, Sir James
Allison, Robert Andrew Dewar, Arthur Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea
Ambrose, Robert Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Jones, William (Carnarvonsh
Asher, Alexander Dillon, John Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt Hn Sir U.
Ashton, Thomas Gair Donelan, Captain A. Kearley, Hudson E.
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert H. Doogan, P. C. Kilbride, Denis
Atherley-Jones, L. Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Kinloch, Sir John G. Smyth
Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire) Duckworth, James Kitson, Sir James
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Dunn, Sir William Labouchere, Henry.
Barlow, John Emmott Ellis, John Edward Lambert, George
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan) Langley, Batty
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Evershed, Sydney Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)
Billson, Alfred Farquharson, Dr. Robert Leng, Sir John
Birrell, Augustine Fenwick, Charles Leuty, Thomas Richmond
Blake, Edward Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Lewis, John Herbert
Broadhurst, Henry Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Lloyd-George, David
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Flynn, James Christopher Logan, John William
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Foster, Sir Walter(Derby Co.) Lough, Thomas
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Fowler, Rt. Hn. Sir Henry Lyell, Sir Leonard
Burns, John Goddard, Daniel Ford Macaleese, Daniel
Burt, Thomas Gold, Charles M'Donnell, Dr. M. A. (Qn's C.)
Buxton, Sydney Charles Gourley, Sir E. Temperley MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
Caldwell, James Griffith, Ellis J. M'Crae, George
Cameron, Sir Chas. (Glasgow) Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton M'Ewan, William
Cameron, Robert (Durham) Haldane, Richard Burdon M'Ghee, Richard
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. M'Kenna, Reginald
Carmichael, Sir T. D. Gibson- Harwood, George M'Leod, John
Causton, Richard Knight Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale- Maddison, Fred
Cawley, Frederick Hedderwick, Thomas C. H. Maden, John Henry
Clark, Dr. G. B.(Caithness-sh. Hemphill, Rt. Hon. C.H. Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe
Clough, Walter Owen Hogan, James Francis Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand
Colville, John Holland, Wm. H. (York, W.R. Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Horniman, Frederick John Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen)
Crombie, John William Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Morgan, W. P. (Merthyr)
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Morley, Chas. (Breconshire)
Dalziel, James Henry Jacoby, James Alfred Morley, Rt. Hn. J.(Montrose)
Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) Rickett, J. Compton Wallace, Robert
Moss, Samuel Roberts, John H. (Denbighs) Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.
Moulton, John Fletcher Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.
Norton, Captain Cecil W. Robson, William Snowdon Weir, James Galloway
Nussey, Thomas Willans Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Whiteley, George (Stockport)
O'Brien, James F. C. (Cork) Schwann, Charles E. Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.) Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) Williams, J. Carvell (Notts.)
O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) Wills, Sir William Henry
Oldroyd, Mark Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B) Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull)
O'Malley, William Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfars.) Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.
Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham) Smith, Samuel (Flint) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Palmer, G. W. (Reading) Soames, Arthur Wellesley Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Paulton, James Mellor Souttar, Robinson Wilson, John (Govan)
Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.) Spicer, Albert Wilson, Jos. H. (Middlesbro')
Pickard, Benjamin Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf.
Pickersgill, Edward Hare Steadman, William Charles Woods, Samuel
Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lncs. S W) Stevenson, Francis S. Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Power, Patrick Joseph Stuart, James (Shoreditch) Yoxall, James Henry
Price, Robert John Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Reckitt, Harold James Thomas, Alf. (Glamorgan, E.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Redmond, Jn. E. (Waterford) Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur
Richardson, J. (Durham, S.E. Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Question put accordingly, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 174; Noes, 250. (Division List, No. 251.)

AYES.
Abraham, W. (Rhondda) Ellis, John Edward Logan, John William
Allan, W. (Gateshead) Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan) Lough, Thomas
Allison, Robert Andrew Evershed, Sydney Lyell, Sir Leonard
Ambrose, Robert Farquharson, Dr. Robert Macaleese, Daniel
Asher, Alexander Fenwick, Charles MacDonnell, Dr. (Queen's Co
Ashton, Thomas Gair Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
Asquith, Rt. Hon. H. Henry Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond M'Crae, George
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Flynn James Christopher M'Dermott, Patrick
Barlow, John Emmott Foster, Sir Walter(Derby Co.) M'Ewan William
Bayley, T. (Derbyshire) Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry M'Ghee, Richard
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Goddard, Daniel Ford M'Leod, John
Billson, Alfred Gold, Charles Maddison, Fred.
Birrell, Augustine Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley Maden, John Henry
Blake, Edward Griffith, Ellis J. Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe.
Broadhurst, Henry Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand
Brunner, Sir J. Tomlinson Haldane, Richard Burdon Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel)
Bryce, Right Hon. James Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Buchanan, T. Ryburn Harwood, George Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthr.
Burns, John Hayne, Rt Hn. Charles Seale- Morley, Charles (Breconshire)
Burt, Thomas Hedderwick, Thomas C. H. Morley, Rt. Hn. J. (Montrose)
Buxton, Sydney Charles Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H. Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)
Caldwell, James Hogan, James Francis Moss, Samuel
Cameron, Sir C. (Glasgow) Holland, W. H. (York, W. R.) Moulton, John Fletcher
Cameron, Robert (Durham) Horniman, Frederick John
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Carmichael, Sir T. D. Gibson- Hutton Alfred E. (Morley) Nussey, Thomas Willans
Causton, Richard Knight Jacoby, James Alfred O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)
Cawley, Frederick Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez E. O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Clough, Walter Owen Joicey, Sir James O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal)
Colville, John Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea) O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.
Condon, Thomas Joseph Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.) O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Crombie, John William Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt Hn Sir U. Oldroyd, Mark
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Kearley, Hudson E. O'Malley, William
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) Kilbride, Denis
Dalziel, James Henry Kinloch, Sir J. G. Smyth Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham)
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Kitson, Sir James Palmer, George Wm.(Reading)
Davitt, Michael Labouchere, Henry Paulton, James Mellor
Dewar, Arthur Lambert, George Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Langley, Batty Pickard, Benjamin
Dillon, John Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland) Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Donelan, Captain A. Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs, S W
Doogan, P. C. Leng, Sir John Power, Patrick Joseph
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Leuty, Thomas Richmond Price, Robert John
Duckworth, James Lewis, John Herbert Reckitt, Harold James
Dunn, Sir William Lloyd-George, David Redmond, John E.(Waterford)
Richardson, J. (Durham, S.E.) Steadman, William Charles Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull)
Rickett, J. Compton Stevenson, Francis S. Wilson, H. J. (York, W.R.)
Roberts, John H. (Denbighsh. Stuart, James (Shoreditch) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Robson, William Snowdon Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.) Wilson, John (Govan)
Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) Wilson, J.H. (Middlesbrough)
Schwann, Charles E. Trevelyan, Charles Philips Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf.
Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) Wallace, Robert Woods, Samuel
Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.) Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.) Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.) Warner, Thos. Courtenay T. Yoxall, James Henry
Smith, Samuel (Flint) Weir, James Galloway
Soames, Arthur Wellesley Whiteley, George (Southport) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Souttar, Robinson Whittaker, Thomas Palmer Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur.
Spicer, Albert Williams, J. Carvell (Notts.)
Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. Wills, Sir William Henry
NOES.
Allsopp, Hon. George Cohen, Benjamin Louis Hanson, Sir Reginald
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hardy, Laurence
Arnold, Alfred Colston, Chas. Edw. H.Athole Heaton, John Henniker
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Compton, Lord Alwyne Helder, Augustus
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) Henderson, Alexander
Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter
Baillie, J. E. B. (Inverness) Cotton-Jodrell,Col. Edw. T.D. Hoare, Edw Brodie (Hampstead
Baird, John George Alexander Cox,Irwin Edward Bainbridge Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)
Balcarres, Lord Cripps, Charles Alfred Hobhouse, Henry
Baldwin, Alfred Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Holland, Hon. Lionel R. (Bow)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) Cruddas, William Donaldson Hornby, Sir William Henry
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G.W. (Leeds) Cubitt, Hon. Henry Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Banbury, Frederick George Curzon, Viscount Howard, Joseph
Barnes, Frederic Gorell Dalrymple, Sir Charles Howell, William Tudor
Barry, Rt Hn A. H Smith-(Hunts Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chath'm Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil
Barry, Sir F. T. (Windsor) Denny, Colonel Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn
Bartley, George C. T. Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Jebb, Richard Claverhouse
Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin Dorington, Sir John Edward Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol) Doughty, George Jenkins, Sir John Jones
Beach, W. W. B. (Hants) Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Jolliffe, Hon. H. George
Beckett, Ernest William Doxford, William Theodore Kemp, George
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Drucker, A. Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.
Beresford, Lord Charles Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Kenyon, James
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Kimber, Henry
Biddulph, Michael Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Lafone, Alfred
Bigwood, James Fardell, Sir T. George Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)
Bill, Charles Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry
Blundell, Colonel Henry Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir, J. (Manc'r Leighton, Stanley
Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme Finch, George H. Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'ns'a
Boulnois, Edmund Fisher, William Hayes Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.
Bousfield, William Robert Fison, Frederick William Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Brassey, Albert Fitz Wygram, General Sir F. Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverpool)
Brookfield, A. Montagu Galloway, William Johnson Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller
Bullard, Sir Harry Gedge, Sydney Lorne, Marquis of
Burdett-Coutts, W. Gibbons, J. Lloyd Lowe, Francis William
Butcher, John George Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H (City of Lond) Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Campbell, Rt Hn J. A. (Glasgow) Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) Lubbock, Rt. Hon. Sir John
Carson, Rt. Hon. Edward Giles, Charles Tyrrell Lucas-Shadwell, William
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Gilliat, John Saunders Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred
Cavendish,V. C. W. (Derbysh.) Gordon, Hon. John Edward Macartney, W. G. Ellison
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Macdona, John Cumming
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Goschen, Rt Hn G. J (St George's MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Goschen, George J. (Sussex) Maclean, James Mackenzie
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.) Goulding, Edward Alfred M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W
Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r) Graham, Henry Robert Malcolm, Ian
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Green, Walford D (Wednesbury Martin, Richard Biddulph
Charrington, Spencer Greville, Hon. Ronald Melville, Beresford Valentine
Chelsea, Viscount Gull, Sir Cameron Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Clare, Octavius Leigh Gurdon, Sir William Brampton Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas. J.
Clarke, Sir Edward (Plymouth) Hall, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Halsey, Thomas Frederick Milner, Sir Frederick George
Coddington, Sir William Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George Milton, Viscount
Coghill, Douglas Harry Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm. Milward, Colonel Victor
Monk, Charles James Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlepool) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants) Ridley, Rt. Hon Sir Matthew W Talbot, Rt Hn J. G. (Oxford Uni.
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson Thorburn, Walter
Moore, William (Antrim, N.) Robertson, Herbt. (Hackney) Thornton, Percy M.
More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) Round, James Tollemache, Henry James
Morgan, Hn. F. (Monmouthsh.) Royds, Clement Molyneux Tomlinson, Wm. Ed. Murray
Morrison, Walter Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Tritton, Charles Ernest
Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford Samuel, H. S. (Limehouse) Valentia, Viscount
Muntz, Philip A. Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert Wanklyn, James Leslie
Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) Savory, Sir Joseph Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent)
Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath) Seely, Charles Hilton Wharton, Rt. Hon. J. Lloyd
Myers, William Henry Seton-Karr, Henry Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Newark, Viscount Sharpe, William Edward T. Williams, Jos. Powell-(Birm.
Nicol, Donald Ninian Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.) Willox, Sir John Archibald
Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford Simeon, Sir Barrington Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
O'Neill, Hon. Robt. Torrens Sinclair, Louis (Romford) Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Penn, John Smith, J. Parker (Lanarks.) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Percy, Earl Smith, Hon. W.F.D.(Strand) Wylie, Alexander
Pierpoint, Robert Spencer, Ernest Wyndham, George
Pilkington, R. (Lancs Newton) Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Platt-Higgins, Frederick Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset) Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Stanley, Sir H. M.(Lambeth) Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Priestley, Sir W. Overend (Edin Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Younger, William
Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Stephens, Henry Charles
Purvis, Robert Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Quilter, Sir Cuthbert Stock, James Henry Sir William Walrond and Mr Anstruther
Rankin, Sir James Strauss, Arthur
Rentoul, James Alexander Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Question put, and agreed to.

* MR. J. H. ROBERTS (Denbighshire, W.)

I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name to leave out Subsection (a). I do not feel that there is any reason whatever, after what has been said, why that sub-section should appear in the Bill at all. The meaning of the Estate Duty Grant is perfectly clear, and I do not think any object can be served by the insertion of the words contained in the sub-section. I therefore move that the sub-section be omitted.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 14, to leave out Sub-section (a)."—(Mr. J. H. Roberts.)

Question proposed, "That Sub-section (a) stand part of the clause."

SIR R. B. FINLAY

The Government cannot accept the Amendment, because we regard the words as absolutely necessary

MR. LLOYD - GEORGE (Carnarvon, etc.)

I do not see that these words are necessary at all. There is only one Estate Duty Grant, and the Commissioners can, without the aid of any interpretation clause, see exactly what the meaning is.

MR. WARNER

I have a similar Amendment on the Paper, and I think, therefore, I ought to state why I put it there. It seems to me that the simplest way would have been not to have a separate sub-section in the definition clause of the Bill, but simply to have said, "Given under Section 19 of the Finance Act, 1894" at the end of Clause I, It only makes the Bill more difficult for the layman to understand to retain the words as they stand now. I certainly do not see the necessity for this subsection, and I shall certainly support my hon. friend's Amendment.

* MR. J. H. ROBERTS

The Amendment which I wish to move is to leave out from "curacies" in Clause 2, Section 2, page 1, line 18, to end of sub-section. The effect of my Amendment will be to withdraw from the operation of this Bill two or three distinct classes of benefices—first, parochial chapelries; secondly, chapelries or districts belonging, or reputed to belong, or annexed, or reputed to be annexed, to any church or chapel; and, thirdly, districts formed for ecclesiastical purposes by statute. I think there is by this time no doubt that whatever the attitude of the Government as to this Bill may be, the real reason for its introduction is the peculiar position of the clergy in regard to their incomes. It is on account of the smallness of their incomes that this Bill has been introduced. That this Bill is only a temporary Bill—to last for two and a half years—is proof, of that contention, and the reading of the evidence placed before the Royal Commission on the subject confirms that view in the most ample manner. I think I am therefore justified in laying down that this Bill is intended for the relief of those clergy in the country who depend entirely upon the proceeds of the tithe rent-charge, and my Amendment stands or falls upon that point, namely, whether they derive their income substantially from that source or not. I have taken the trouble to go through an interesting Return upon this subject which was furnished to this House in 1891. It gives full information as to the districts formed for ecclesiastical purposes during the years 1880 and 1890. I am not going to weary the Committee with statistics and figures from this Return, but I should like to point out that any hon. Member may find out for himself, if he studies this Return, that, so far as the majority of these districts are concerned, the tithe rent-charge assigned to them is of the smallest dimensions. When the income of the clergy from endowment is, on the average, from £300 to £500, and when the tithe rent-charge is only £10, £20, or £30, is it just or right that the same relief in regard to the rating should be applied? I further wish to call attention to one phrase in this section which seems to me to require some explanation from the right hon. Gentleman opposite. I should like to know what is the meaning of the phrase "and chapelries or districts belonging or reputed to belong, or annexed, or reputed to be annexed, to any church or chapel." It passes my comprehension to understand how it is desirable or necessary to introduce into a section of this kind words of that character.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 18, to leave out from the word 'curacies,' to the end of paragraph (b)."—(Mr. J. H. Roberts.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

SIR R. B. FINLAY

I hope the Committee will retain these words. The Amendment moved by the hon. Gentleman is really in substance an attempt to undo a great part of what the Committee has already decided upon under the first clause—namely, that certain relief shall be given in the case of tithe rent-charge attached to benefices. The Amendment will, in fact, eviscerate that clause.

MR. ASQUITH (Fife, E.)

Will the Solicitor-General explain the concluding words of the section, relating to benefices under the patronage of the Crown?

SIR R. B. FINLAY

These words are merely put in on the principle that an Act of Parliament does not apply to the Crown unless the Crown is expressly mentioned.

MR. LEWIS (Flint Boroughs)

I rise for the purpose of drawing the attention of the Solicitor-General to the fact that he has not replied to the most important part of the case put forward by my hon. friend. I would especially draw his attention to the words "and districts formed for ecclesiastical purposes by virtue of statutory authority." The question was put earlier in this Debate to the Government whether the Ecclesiastical Commissioners were or were not to derive any benefit under this Bill. I remember the question being put very well, and I remember the answer given by the right hon. Gentleman. It was denied that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners were to derive any benefit whatever under this Bill. What have the Ecclesiastical Commissioners been doing, and what are they doing continually? They are forming new districts for ecclesiastical purposes, and those districts are being formed by virtue of statutory authority. But what will happen in the future with regard to those districts? They will simply have a further endowment of 10 per cent. paid out of the funds of the nation, in addition to the endowment which they will get if they annex any tithe in their possession to the benefice. I daresay hon. Gentlemen opposite would like to have a further endowment of the Church of England in that particular way.

SIR R. B. FINLAY

Districts are, of course, formed in the way mentioned by the hon. Member, and they may remain districts for some time without becoming parishes. If they have tithes annexed to them and endowments derived from them, then it is proper that the benefits of this provision should be extended to such cases.

MR. SAMUEL EVANS (Glamorganshire, Mid.)

I object to the words in question, because they will enable the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to attach a very large extent of tithe rent-charge to new districts, which they will undoubtedly form as soon as they possibly can.

MR. LAMBERT

I do not wish to detain the Committee for more than a moment, but there is in line 20 a phrase which is not quite clear to the lay mind. I would like to ask the meaning of the word "reputed" to belong. It is used in two distinct places—"Chapelries or districts belonging, or reputed to belong, or annexed or reputed to be annexed to any church or chapel." If a thing belongs to any church or chapel it does belong to it, but surely you need not bring in under this Bill any thing "reputed" to belong.

SIR R. B. FINLAY

A question might arise as to the precise extent of the Common Law right, and this is intended to make the matter quite clear.

MR. HUMPHREYS - OWEN (Montgomery)

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what is the difference between "belonging to" and "annexed to"?

SIR R. B. FINLAY

"Belonging to" means that which was given to the benefice when it was formed, "annexed to" that which was given afterwards.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

The interpretation put upon this clause by the Solicitor-General raises a very important point. It is to be extended to chapelries belonging to or reputed to belong to any church or chapel. A new district is formed and a chapel is endowed, that is, a certain sum is put aside for its use, and then comes the question as to how that money is going to be invested. The trustees come to the conclusion that they will invest the money in tithe rent-charge in the hands of the lay impropriator. The question is, is such a transaction within the Act? If it is, it raises a most important point. Suppose you purchase the tithe rent-charge 100 miles away; directly you do so that tithe rent-charge is equal to a £50 endowment to the chapel, which is equivalent to adding £2,000 to the endowment. I should like to know if I am correct in my interpretation of the clause. Instead of the whole of the money being handed over to the church, it might be divided between the church and the lay impropriator. The lay impropriator might say, "You benefit to the extent of £50 a year, therefore I am going to put another £1,000 on to the price."

SIR R. B. FINLAY

I doubt whether that question is relevant to the matter before the House, but I will answer it nevertheless. If a certain sum of money is invested for the endowment of an existing vicarage or of a new district, it is not subject to rates. The whole injustice is this, that, where a benefice is endowed with tithes, rates are charged. If you have £1,000 which you wish to give to a church and it is invested in Consols or some other stock, no rates are charged. Therefore nothing is gained by buying tithe rent-charge from the lay impropriator. The same value is obtained, only it did not become subject to rates. The amount obtained is not altered by changing the form of investment. I think the question has a very remote reference to the subject before us.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

Then I understand the answer is in the affirmative.

SIR R. B. FINLAY

The hon. and learned Member understands that perfectly well.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

I am glad to have that admission. I think it raises a very important point. The hon. Gentleman does not challenge the argument I laid down, which is that a sum of money may be collected in Liverpool or Newcastle; if, instead of investing it in Consols, you invest it in tithes in a parish 300 miles away, you can arrange a deal with the lay impropriator by which you can give £3,000 for a thing only worth £2,000, and say, we do not mind giving you the £1,000 because we make £1,000, and the money after all will come out of the ratepayers. This is done under a Bill the object of which is right and justice. This measure will lend itself to transactions little short of fraudulent.

MR. HEDDERWICK (Wick Burghs)

If the Solicitor-General is correct, will not this Bill not only have the effect of relieving the clerical tithe-owners of half their rate, but increasing the value of tithes generally?

* THE CHAIRMAN

I do not see how that arises on the question of the definition of the words proposed to be left out.

MR. LEWIS

I wish to put a specific instance which arises on the Amendment of my hon. friend. I have in my mind a parish with a chapelry endowed with £10,000 by the mother of the lay impropriator. I wish to know whether it is possible and how the Government proposes to meet a case in which by arrangement between the parties the lay tithe may be made free to the extent of one-half of the rates. The Government have admitted over and over again that the lay tithes have been omitted from the Bill because they could not, in justice, be included in it; but there are cases in which the lay tithe-owners will be largely benefited under this Bill, and nothing can be done to prevent it.

* THE CHAIRMAN

I do not see that the case the hon. Gentleman refers to would be met by the omission of the words now before the Committee.

MR. LEWIS

If these words are omitted the specific transaction to which I referred would not be possible under the Bill. I want to know what guarantee there is that justice will be done by the action the Government are taking.

* THE CHAIRMAN

The endowment to which the hon. Member referred can be made applicable to special curacies, which has already been passed.

MR. ASQUITH

Before you put the Question, Sir, I should like to know whether you rule that upon the Amendment of my hon. friend we are not entitled to discuss the effect which this definition clause will have if passed in its present shape on what I might call future annexations of tithe rent-charge, which do not at present exist. In my judgment it is a question of great importance, but I do not want to be out of order in discussing it.

* THE CHAIRMAN

I think the matter has already been discussed. It was discussed on an Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Merthyr to insert the words "attached to," and it was admitted that "attached to" would cover future cases.

MR. D. A. THOMAS

Upon a point of order, Sir, I moved the Amendment, but I never raised that point at all, Sir.

* THE CHAIRMAN

It is perfectly true that the hon. Member did not raise the point, but other hon. Members did, and discussed it for a considerable period. The matter was fully gone into

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

Would it not be in order to discuss the point in connection with the endowment of chapelries which are freshly endowed? I propose to confine myself to that point.

* THE CHAIRMAN

The difficulty in the way of the hon. Member is that it was discussed in the previous Amendment to which I referred.

MR. LLOYD - GEORGE

I do not understand you to rule, Sir, that it is absolutely out of order, though I quite see the difficulty; but it is really a most important point, and one upon which I desire to have your ruling particularly.

* THE CHAIRMAN

In my opinion the case has been discussed and decided when the Committee decided that the words "attached to" should remain in the Bill. I do not think the question can be raised again on this Amendment.

MR. D. A. THOMAS

You have referred, Sir, to the Amendment I moved on Monday last, but I did not raise this point, and it does seem a little hard upon me that, because some discussion which was evidently out of order took place on that occasion, I should now be said to have raised the discussion.

* THE CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member chose to raise the same point by moving his Amendment, and there was consider- able discussion on the point If my recollection serves me correctly, there was a long discussion on it.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 228; Noes, 152. (Division List, No. 252.)

AYES.
Allsopp, Hon. George Dorington, Sir John Edward Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Doughty, George Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swans'a
Arnold, Alfred Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lockwood, Lieut. Col. A. R.
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Doxford, William Theodore Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Drucker, A. Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)
Baillie, James E. B.(Inverness Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverpool)
Balcarres, Lord Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller
Baldwin, Alfred Fardell, Sir T. George Lorne, Marquess of
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw. Lowe, Francis William
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir, J. (M'nc'r Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Banbury, Frederick George Finch, George H. Lucas-Shadwell, William
Barnes, Frederic Gorell Finlay, Sir R. Bannatyne Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred
Barry, R. Hn. A. H. Smith-(Hnt Firbank, Joseph Thomas Macartney, W. G. Ellison
Barry, Sir Francis T. (Winds'r Fisher, William Hayes MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Bartley, George C. T. Fison, Frederick William Maclean, James Mackenzie
Barton, Dunbar Plunket FitzWygram, General Sir F. M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinb'gh,W.
Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin Flower, Ernest Malcolm, Ian
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol Galloway, William Johnson Melville, Beresford Valentine
Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants Gibbons, J. Lloyd Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Beckett, Ernest William Gibbs, Hon. V. (St. Albans) Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas. J.
Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull Giles, Charles Tyrrell Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Gilliat, John Saunders Milner, Sir Frederick George
Beresford, Lord Charles Godson, Sir A. Frederick Milton, Viscount
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Gordon, Hon. John Edward Milward, Colonel Victor
Biddulph, Michael Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon Monk, Charles James
Bigwood, James Goschen, Rt Hn G. J (St George's Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Bill, Charles Goschen, G. J. (Sussex) Moore, William (Antrim, N.)
Blundell, Colonel Henry Goulding, Edward Alfred More, Robt. Jasper (Shopshire)
Bond, Edward Graham, Henry Robert Morgan, Hn, Fred (Monm'thsh.
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Green, W. D. (Wednesbury) Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford
Bousfield, William Robert Gretton, John Muntz, Philip A.
Bowles, T. G. (King's Lynn) Greville, Hon. Ronald Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Gull, Sir Cameron Murray, Charles J.(Coventry)
Brookfield, A. Montagu Gunter, Colonel Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Bullard, Sir Harry Hall, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles Newark, Viscount
Burdett-Coutts, W. Halsey, Thomas Frederick Nicol, Donald Ninian
Butcher, John George Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G. O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Carson, Rt. Hon. Edward Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert W. Penn, John
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Hanson, Sir Reginald Percy, Earl
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derby.) Hardy, Laurence. Pierpoint, Robert
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Heaton, John Henniker Pilkington, R. (Lancs. Newton)
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Helder, Augustus Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Henderson, Alexander Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.) Hermon-Hodge, R. Trotter Priestley, Sir W. O. (Edin.)
Chamberlain, J. A. (Wor'cr.) Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) Purvis, Robert
Charrington, Spencer Hobhouse, Henry Quilter, Sir Cuthbert
Chelsea, Viscount Holland, Hn. Lionel R. (Bow) Rankin, Sir James
Clarke, Sir Ed. (Plymouth) Hornby, Sir William Henry Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlepool)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos H. A. E. Howard, Joseph Ridley, Rt Hon Sir Matthew W.
Coddington, Sir William Howell, William Tudor Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson
Coghill, Douglas Harry Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Round, James
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Royds, Clement Molyneux
Compton, Lord Alwyne Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Russell, T. W.(Tyrone)
Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) Kemp, George Savory, Sir Joseph
Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley, W Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir J. H. Seely, Charles Hilton
Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge Kenyon, James Seton-Karr, Henry
Cripps, Charles Alfred Kimber, Henry Sharpe, William Edward T.
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) King, Sir Henry Seymour Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Lafore, Alfred Simeon, Sir Barrington
Curzon, Viscount Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverp'l) Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks)
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand
Davies, Sir Hon. D. (Chatham Lea, Sir Thomas (Lodonderry Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)
Denny, Colonel Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. E. H. Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Stanley, Sir H. M. (Lambeth)
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Leighton, Stanley Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Stock, James Henry Tritton, Charles Ernest Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Strauss, Arthur Valentia, Viscount Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Wanklyn, James Leslie Wylie, Alexander
Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier Warde, Lieut.-Col. C.E.(Kent Wyndham, George
Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G. (Ox'd Univ. Whitmore, Charles Algernon Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Thorburn, Walter Williams, J. Powell-(Birm'g'm. Younger, William
Thornton, Percy M. Willox, Sir John Archibald TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Tollemache, Henry James Wilson, John (Falkirk) Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Tomlinson, Wm. Ed. Murray Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
NOES.
Abraham William (Rhondda) Gold, Charles Oldroyd, Mark
Allan, William (Gateshead) Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley O'Malley, William
Allison, Robert Andrew Griffith, Ellis J. Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham)
Ambrose, Robert Gurdon, Sir William Brampton Palmer, Geo. Wm. (Reading)
Asher, Alexander Haldane, Richard Burdon Paulton, James Mellor
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert H. Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Pease, Jos. A. (Northumb.)
Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire) Harwood, George Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs, S W
Barlow, John Emmott Hedderwick, Thomas Charles H Power, Patrick Joseph
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Price, Robert John
Beaumont, Wentworth, C. B. Holland, Wm. H. (York, W. R.) Priestley, Briggs (Yorks.)
Billson, Alfred Horniman, Frederick John Randell, David
Blake, Edward Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Reckitt, Harold James
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Richardson, J. (Durham, S. E.
Broadhurst, Henry Jacoby, James Alfred Robertson, E. (Dundee)
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez E. Robson, W. Snowdon
Bryce, Right Hon. James Joicey, Sir James Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire Schwann, Charles E.
Burns, John Kearley, Hudson, E. Scott, C. Prestwich (Leigh)
Buxton, Sydney Charles Kilbride, Denis Shaw, C. E. (Stafford)
Caldwell, James Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Cameron, Sir Chas.(Glasgow) Kitson, Sir James Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Labouchere, Henry Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Causton, Richard Knight Lambert, George Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Cawley, Frederick Lawson Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land Souttar, Robinson
Clough, Walter Owen Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) Spicer, Albert
Colville, John Leng, Sir John Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.
Condon, Thomas Joseph Leuty, Thomas Richmond Steadman, William Charles
Crilly, Daniel Lewis, John Herbert Stevenson, Francis S.
Crombie, John William Logan, John William Stuart, James (Shoreditch)
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Lough, Thomas Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) MacAleese, Daniel Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Dalziel, James Henry M'Arthur, William(Cornwall) Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan M'Crae, George Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles M'Dermott, Patrick Wallace, Robert
Dillon, John M'Ewan, William Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds,S.)
Donelan, Captain A. M'Ghee, Richard Warner, Thomas C. T.
Doogan, P. C. M'Leod, John Weir, James Galloway
Duckworth, James Maddison, Fred Whiteley, George (Stockport)
Dunn, Sir William Maden, John Henry Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel) Williams, John C. (Notts.)
Evans, Sir Francis H. (South'ton Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Wilson, H. J. (York, W. R.)
Evershed, Sydney Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merth'r Wilson, J.(Durham, Mid.)
Farquharson, Dr. Robert Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Wilson, John (Govan)
Fenwick, Charles Morley, Rt. Hon. J. (Montrose) Woodhouse, Sir. J. T. (Huddsfld)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith) Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) Woods, Samuel
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Moss, Samuel Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Flynn, James Christopher Norton, Capt. Cecil William Yoxall, James Henry
Foster, Sir Walter(Derby Co.) Nussey, Thomas Willans
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert J. O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.) Mr. Herbert Roberts and Mr. Lloyd-George.
Goddard, Daniel Ford T. P. O'Connor, (Liverpool)
MR. D. A. THOMAS

I quite recognise that the second part of the Amendment I have on the Paper is not now in order, but the first part is. The object of that part is to limit as far as possible the extent of the Bill. The Committee have already decided that incumbents presented to a living after the passing of the Act should receive the benefit, but they have not yet decided or discussed whether those who have been recently presented should receive the benefit of the Bill. I should like to limit it to those who have been presented to livings since the passing of the Agricultural Rating Act, 1896, and before the passing of the present Act. In my mind they are the only ones who can have had their expectations aroused of having half their rates paid. There can be no kind of sense of grievance with the rest, and therefore I beg to move this Amendment.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 25, to leave out paragraph (c) of Sub-section 1, and insert the words, 'The expression "owner," means the incumbent in receipt of the tithe rent-charge at the date of the passing of this Act.'"—(Mr. David Thomas.)

Question proposed, "That paragraph (c), of Sub-section 1, stand part of the clause."

MR. LONG

I hope the hon. Gentleman does not mean seriously to press this Amendment; if he does, I hope the Committee will reject it, because it proposes to reverse the decisions of other stages of the proceedings. We are asked to limit the clause to incumbents now in possession of their benefices; but if this Act comes into force the same rule ought to apply to the new incumbent as to the old.

MR. LEWIS

I cannot allow this opportunity to go by without protesting against the "legislation by reference" that we see in this particular sub-section. We are told that the expressions "owner of tithe rent-charge" and "tithe rent-charge" have the same meanings respectively as in the Tithe Act of 1891. When that Act is turned up it is found that a reference is made to the Tithe Act of 1836, so that to find out the meaning of these terms the Act of 1836 has to be consulted. This is a question in which not only lawyers but laymen are becoming increasingly concerned. If the Government introduce measures of this kind they ought to make them plain and simple to the ordinary intelligence. The country lawyer has to have his shelves stacked with volumes of old statutes, or else he is unable to explain to his clients what the meaning of such a section is. The very least the Government could have done would have been to refer people, not to the Act of 1891, but to the Act of 1836. I feel so strongly upon this subject that unless I receive a satisfactory explanation why the clause has been so drawn I shall feel compelled to go to a Division.

MR. SAMUEL EVANS

As a matter of fact, in the Tithe Act of 1891, Sec. 9, you are referred not merely to the Tithe Act of 1836 but to the Extraordinary Tithe Redemption Act of 1836, and to the Tithe Act of 1860, so that you have to refer to four Acts of Parliament before you can get a definition. This kind of drafting ought to come to an end. It lends some colour to the allegation which is sometimes made by people who do not know any better that Acts of Parliament are drafted in an obscure way for the benefit of the lawyers. You can explain in a few plain words what is meant by these terms, but instead of that a person is referred from Act of Parliament to Act of Parliament, and he is a very wise man who after consulting them can come to any definite conclusion at all. With regard to the substance of the Amendment, I exonerate the mover entirely from having supported an Amendment of mine which was the converse of this; I believe he voted against it. But we cut the Bill into two parts—those referring to past and future. If we could get rid of the benefits proposed to be given to those who lived in the past we should be very pleased, but if we could cut off the benefits from those who live in the future we should be, perhaps, still more pleased. I shall, therefore, with a perfectly clear conscience support the Amendment.

MR. ELLIS J. GRIFFITH

As far as I understand, the only reason why we are asked to support this Bill at all is in order to do some sort of justice to these people who have suffered so much in the past. If that is so, there is no reason whatever why we should confer any benefits upon future incumbents. They will then know perfectly well that they will not get any benefit, and therefore they will have no grievance on the ground that they are under a disadvantage as compared with those appointed before the passing of the Act. Consequently I shall vote for the Amendment.

SIR J. T. BRUNNER (Cheshire, Northwich)

The desire to have Acts of Parliament clear to the common understanding is one that I hold very dear indeed. I am delighted to have the opportunity of appealing once more to Her Majesty's Government to take the advice which I have so often said has been given to them by the noble Lord at the head of the Government. Lord Salisbury has declared that the method of drafting Acts of Parliament was extremely repugnant to him, and he has made a promise, which I hope he will some day fulfil, of bringing in a Bill which should put an end to this mischief. Year after year we pass Acts of Parliament which necessitate references ad nauseam to former Acts, and I hope that these few words of mine may fall upon some good ground—if not on the Treasury bench, then elsewhere—and that my heart may be gladdened some day or other by this advice being taken.

MR. LEUTY (Leeds, E.)

I am somewhat curious to know how the element of justice can possibly come into the discussion of this Amendment. It may be argued that in some way those who have property in tithe rent-charge are suffering from some injustice, and that that injustice ought to be removed. But how can it be argued with regard to men who are in the future to be presented to benefices that there can be any injustice in leaving matters as they are? According to the law, of this property a portion will be given to the gentlemen who occupy the offices, and another portion will go in payment of rates. If these gentlemen do not choose to take the proportion which the present law gives them, they have no need to take the office; and if they take the office, how can it be said that there is any injustice in their emoluments being limited to those attached to the office? Therefore the element of justice does not come in. But what does come in? What comes in is this—that it is desired by Her Majesty's Government to give additional endowments to these offices, so that the gentlemen who are advanced to them will find they are advanced to offices with larger endowments than they have to-day. The First Lord of the Treasury in the earlier part of the discussion made an appeal which ought to come with great weight to any man who desires to be at all fair-minded, and that was that all these old quarrels should be ended and forgotten. How can we expect that old quarrels will be ended and forgotten when Her Majesty's Government go to Dissenters, and to those who profess no religion at all, and say to both, "You must and shall make a contribution for the increase of the endowments of the Church of England"?

* THE CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member is making a statement which dangerously approaches a speech applicable to the Second Reading.

MR. LEUTY

I am extremely glad it only dangerously approaches, and I will try to steer farther from that point. If this Bill be founded on justice I might argue that at least justice was not involved in the proposal which the Amendment suggests should be left out, inasmuch as it would affect gentlemen who at present have no manner of interest in the property in question. As a Nonconformist, I should be only too delighted to see these quarrels forgotten. But if those quarrels cannot be forgotten, the fault lies with those who insist on keeping them open by measures of this kind.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

With regard to this increasing difficulty of interpreting Acts of Parliament owing to "legislation by reference," I believe the Incorporated Law Society had the matter under their consideration for several sessions and sent appeals to the Government. Those appeals have been considered by the Solicitor-General, who has replied in formal words, but he is too busily engaged in endowing the clergy to attend to the far more important point of simplifying some of these Acts of Parliament. Lawyers themselves are complaining about it, and the difficulty, great as it is now, will be increased by means of an Act like this, which legislates by reference to four or five other very complicated Acts. I have another objection to this sub-section, and that is the interpretation sought to be applied to the words "owner of tithe rent-charge." I really believe that if the words of the Tithe Act of 1891 had been incorporated in this Bill it would have struck even Members on the other side of the House as being an extraordinarily unfair proposition. What is the interpretation there? It is that if the tithe rent-charge is vested in the Queen in right of her Crown, "owner" means "the Commissioners of Woods" in substitution for the Queen. What on earth have the Com- missioners of Woods to do with the relief which is to be granted to the clergy in respect of rates which are pressing heavily upon them? Surely they cannot complain that they are suffering. What is the second definition? It is that where the ownership is vested in the Duke of Cornwall it means the Keeper of the Records of the Duchy of Cornwall in substitution for the Duke of Cornwall. Who is the Keeper of the Records of the Duchy of Cornwall? What are the Records of the Duchy of Cornwall? We ought to have another definition, explaining what the Duchy of Cornwall is and what its limits are. Why should a grant be made to the Keeper of the Records of the Duchy of Cornwall and the Commissioners of Woods, in a Bill for the relief of the distress of the clergy? They have absolutely nothing whatever to do with it. The whole of that definition clause is confined to the Commissioners of Woods and Forests and to the Keeper of the Records of the Duchy of Cornwall, and we are asked to make a grant to those gentlemen under the Bill.

MR. LONG

Nonsense!

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

What does it mean, then? If it is nonsense, it is non-

sense which is introduced by the right hon. Gentleman himself.

MR. LONG

I withdraw the word "nonsense," but it was drawn from me by the statement that we propose to give this grant to these various people. The grant is expressly given, in clear terms in the Bill, in respect of tithe rent-charge attached to a benefice, and clearly such tithe rent-charge is not enjoyed by Her Majesty's Commissioners.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

Then if that is the case, what on earth do these words mean? This Bill is really a very stupid Bill. We have already decided that we will pay half the rates of the clerical owners of tithe rent—

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

I move that the Question be now put.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

That is the best answer the right hon. Gentleman can give me!

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 187 Noes, 107. (Division List, No. 253.)

AYES.
Allsopp, Hon. George Chaloner, Capt. R. G. W. Fardell, Sir T. George
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.
Arnold, Alfred Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Finch, George H.
Balcarres, Lord Charrington, Spencer Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r Clare, Octavius Leigh Firbank, Joseph Thomas
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds Clarke, Sir Edw.(Plymouth) Fisher, William Hayes
Barnes, Frederic Gorell Coddington, Sir William Flower, Ernest
Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. Smith- Coghill, Douglas Harry Gibbons, J. Lloyd
Bartley, George C. T. Cohen, Benjamin Louis Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans)
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Giles, Charles Tyrrell
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj. Compton, Lord Alwyne Gilliat, John Saunders
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. Godson, Sir Augustus F.
Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Ed. T. D. Goldsworthy, Major-General
Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge Gordon, Hon. John Edward
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton) Goschen, Rt Hn G. J.(St Geo.'s
Biddulph, Michael Cubitt, Hon. Henry Goschen, George J. (Sussex)
Bigwood, James Curzon, Viscount Goulding, Edward Alfred
Blundell, Colonel Henry Dalrymple, Sir Charles Graham, Henry Robert
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham) Green, Walford D. (Wed'bury
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Denny, Colonel Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord G.
Bousfield, William Robert Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert W.
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Hanson, Sir Reginald
Brookfield, A. Montagu Dorington, Sir John Edward Heaton, John Henniker
Bullard, Sir Harry Doughty, George Henderson, Alexander
Burdett-Coutts, W. Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Hermon-Hodge, R. Trotter
Butcher, John George Doxford, William Theodore Hill, Sir E. Stock (Bristol)
Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbys.) Drucker, A. Hoare, E. B. (Hampstead)
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Elliot, Hon A. Ralph Douglas Hobhouse, Henry
Holland, Hon. L. R. (Bow) Monk, Charles James Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)
Hornby, Sir Wm. Henry More, Robert Jasper (Shropsh.) Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Howell, William Tudor Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.) Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Morrell, George Herbert Stock, James Henry
Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) Strauss, Arthur
Jebb, R. Claverhouse Muntz, Philip A. Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Jenkins, Sir John Jones Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Kemp, George Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Thorburn, Walter
Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J.H. Nicol, Donald Ninian Thornton, Percy M.
Kenyon, James O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Tollemache, Henry James.
Kimber, Henry Penn, John Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray
King, Sir Henry Seymour Percy, Earl Tritton, Charles Ernest
Lafone, Alfred Pierpoint, Robert Valentia, Viscount
Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Pilkington, R. (Lancs. Newton) Wanklyn, James Leslie
Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry) Platt-Higgins, Frederick Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent)
Llewellyn, E.H.(Somerset) Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Welby, Lieut-Col. A. C. E.
Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swans.) Priestley, Sir W. O. (Edin. Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm.
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Willox, Sir John Archibald
Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) Purvis, Robert Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverpool) Rankin, Sir James Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Wortley, Rt. Hon.C. B.Stuart-
Lowe, Francis William Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlepool) Wylie, Alexander
Lucas-Shadwell, William Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W. Wyndham, George
Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Macartney, W. G. Ellison Robertson, Herbert(Hackney) Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
MacIver, David (Liverpool) Round, James Young, Commander (Berks, E
Malcolm, Ian Russell, T. W.(Tyrone) Younger, William
Melville, Beresford Valentine Rutherford, John
Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Seton-Karr, Henry
Mildmay, Francis Bingham Sharpe, William Edward T. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Milner, Fir Frederick George Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)
Milton, Viscount Simeon, Sir Barrington
NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Harwood, George Oldroyd, Mark
Allan, William (Gateshead) Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- O'Malley, William
Ambrose, Robert Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H. Pearson, Sir Weetman D.
Asher, Alexander Holland, Wm. H. (York, W. R. Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire) Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Power, Patrick Joseph
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Price, Robert John
Barlow, John Emmott Jacoby, James Alfred Priestley, Briggs (Yorks)
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Jones, Wm.(Carnarvonshire) Randell, David
Billson, Alfred Kearley, Hudson E. Reckitt, Harold James
Broadhurst, Henry Kilbride, Denis Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth Robson, William Snowdon
Caldwell, James Lambert, George Samuel, J.(Stockton-on-Tees)
Cameron, Sir Charles(Gl'sg'w) Lawson, Sir W.(Cumberland) Schwann, Charles E.
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) Scott, Chas. Prestwich(Leigh)
Cawley, Frederick Leng, Sir John Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Clough, Walter Owen Leuty, Thomas Richmond Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarshire
Colville, John Lewis, John Herbert Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Lloyd-George, David Souttar, Robinson
Crilly, Daniel Logan, John William Spicer, Albert
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) Macaleese, Daniel Stanhope, Hon. Philips
Dalziel, James HenrY M'Crae, George Steadman, William Charles
Davitt, Michael M'Dermott, Patrick Stevenson, Francis S.
Dillon, John M'Ghee, Richard Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Donelan, Captain A. M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Doogan, P. C. M'Leod, John Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Duckworth, James Maddison, Fred. Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan Maden, John Henry Wallace, Robert
Evershed, Sydney Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel) Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)
Fenwick, Charles Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Weir, James Galloway
Flynn, James Christopher Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Williams, J. Carvell (Notts.)
Goddard, Daniel Ford Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Gold, Charles Moss, Samuel Yoxall, James Henry
Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Griffith, Ellis J. Nussey, Thomas Willans TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Haldane, Richard Burdon O'Connor, James(Wicklow,W Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Causton.
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Question put accordingly, "That paragraph (c), of Sub-section 1, stand part of the clause."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 184; Noes, 111. (Division List, No. 254.)

AYES.
Allsop, Hon. George Finch, George H. Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh)
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Morrell, George Herbert
Arnold, Alfred Firbank, Joseph Thomas Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Fisher, William Hayes Muntz, Philip A.
Balcarres, Lord Flower, Ernest Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds Gibbons, J. Lloyd Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath)
Barnes, Frederic Gorell Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) Nicol, Donald Ninian
Barry, Rt Hn A H. Smith-(Hunts Giles, Charles Tyrrell O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Bartley, George C. T. Gilliat, John Saunders Penn, John
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. Percy, Earl
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Goldsworthy, Major-General Pierpoint, Robert
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H.(Bristol Gordon, Hon. John Edward Pilkington, R.(Lancs, Newton)
Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants. Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (St. Geo's) Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Goschen, George J. (Sussex) Priestley, Sir W. O. (Edin.)
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Goulding, Edward Alfred Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Biddulph, Michael Graham, Henry Robert Purvis, Robert
Bigwood, James Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'y Rankin, Sir James
Blundell, Colonel Henry Gretton, John Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo. Richardson, Sir Thos. (Hartlep'l
Bousfield, William Robert Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. Wm. Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Hanson, Sir Reginald Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Brookfield, A. Montagu Henderson, Alexander Robertson, Herbert(Hackney)
Bullard, Sir Harry Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter Round, James
Burdett-Coutts, W. Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol) Royds, Clement Molyneux
Butcher, John George Hoare, Ed. Brodie (Hampstead) Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbysh.) Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) Rutherford, John
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Hobhouse, Henry Seton-Karr, Henry
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow) Sharpe, William Edward T.
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Hornby, Sir William Henry Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)
Chamberlain, Rt.Hn.J.(Brim.) Howell, William Tudor Simeon, Sir Barrington
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Stanley Hn. A. (Ormskirk)
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Charrington, Spencer Jebb, Richard Claverhonse Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Chelsea, Viscount Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Stock, James Henry
Clare, Octavius Leigh Jenkins, Sir John Jones Strauss, Arthur
Clarke, Sir Edward(Plymouth) Kemp, George Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Coddington, Sir William Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Coghill, Douglas Harry Kenyon, James Talbot, Lord E.(Chichester)
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Kimber, Henry Thorburn, Walter
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse King Sir Henry Seymour Thornton, Percy M.
Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. Lafone, Alfred Tollemache, Henry James
Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Edw.T.D. Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Lea,Sir Thomas (Londonderry Tritton, Charles Ernest
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset Valentia, Viscount
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'ns'a Wanklyn, James Leslie
Curzon, Viscount Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E.(Kent)
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesh'm Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chath'm Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverpool Williams, J. Powell-(Birm.)
Denny, Colonel Lopes, Henry Yerde Buller Willox, Sir John Archibald
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Lowe, Francis William Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Wylie, Alexander
Dorington, Sir John Edward Macartney, W. G. Ellison Wyndham, George
Doughty, George MacIver, David (Liverpool) Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H.
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Malcolm, Ian Wyvill, Marmaduke d'Arcy
Doxford, William Theodore Melville, Beresford Valentine Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Drucker, A. Meysey-Thompon, Sir H. M. Younger, William
Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Milner, Sir Frederick George TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Fardell, Sir T. George Milton, Viscount
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw. Monk, Charles James
Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) More, Robert Jasp. (Shropshire)
NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Ambrose, Robert Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire)
Allan, William (Gateshead) Asher, Alexander Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)
Barlow, John Emmott Hutton, Alfred E.(Morley) Power, Patrick Joseph
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Jacoby, James Alfred Price, Robert John
Billson, Alfred Jones, William (Carnarvonsh. Priestley, Briggs (Yorks.)
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Kearley, Hudson E. Randell, David
Broadhurst, Henry Kilbride, Denis Reckitt, Harold James
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Kinloch, Sir J. George Smyth Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Caldwell, James Lambert, George Robson, William Snowdon
Cameron, Sir Charles(Glasgow Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'l'd Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Leese, Sir J. F.(Accrington) Schwann, Charles E.
Cawley, Frederick Leng, Sir John Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Clough, Walter Owen Leuty, Thomas Richmond Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford)
Colville, John Lewis, John Herbert Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Lloyd-George, David Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire)
Crilly, Daniel Logan, John William Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Macaleese, Daniel Souttar, Robinson
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) MacDonnell, Dr. M.A.(Qn'sC. Spicer, Albert
Dalziel, James Henry M'Crae, George Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.
Davitt, Michael M'Dermott, Patrick Steadman, William Charles
Dillon, John M'Ghee, Richard Stevenson, Francis S.
Donelan, Captain A. M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Sullivan, Donald (Westmeath)
Doogan, P. C. M'Leod, John Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)
Duckworth, James Maddison, Fred. Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan Maden, John Henry Trevelyan, Charles Philips.
Evershed, Sydney Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel) Wallace, Robert
Fenwick, Charles Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)
Flynn, James Cristopher Morgan, W. Pritchard(Merthyr Weir, James Galloway
Foster, Sir Walter(Derby Co.) Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Goddard, Daniel Ford Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) Williams, John Carvell (Notts)
Gold, Charles Moss, Samuel Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Gourley, Sir E. Temperley Norton, Capt. Cecil William Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Griffith, Ellis J. Nussey, Thomas Willans Yoxall, James Henry
Haldane, Richard Burdon O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.)
Harcourt, Rt. Hn. Sir William O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Harwood, George Oldroyd, Mark Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Causton.
Hayne, Rt. Hn. Chas. Seale- O'Malley, William
Hemphill,Rt. Hon. Charles H. Pearson, Sir Weetman D.
Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Mr. BALFOUR

rose in Ins place and claimed to move, "That the Question 'That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill' be now put."

Question put, "That the Question 'That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill' be now put."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 184; Noes, 97. (Division List, No. 255.)

AYES.
Allsopp, Hon. George Butcher, John George Denny, Colonel
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) Dickson-Poynder, Sir J. P.
Arnold, Alfred Cayzer, Sir Charles William Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cecil, E. (Hertford, East) Dorington, Sir John Edward
Balcarres, Lord Chaloner, Capt. R. G. W. Doughty, George
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.) Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds) Chamberlain, J. A. (Worcester) Doxford, William Theodore
Barnes, Frederic Gorrell Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Drucker, A.
Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts Charrington, Spencer Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.
Bartley, George C. T. Chelsea, Viscount Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Hart
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Clare, Octavius Leigh Elliot, Hon. A. R. Douglas
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj'n Clarke, Sir E. (Plymouth) Fardell, Sir T. George
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M.H.(Bristol Coddington, Sir William Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Ed.
Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants. Coghill, Douglas Harry Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)
Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull Cohen, Benjamin Louis Finch, George H.
Bentrose, Sir Henry Howe Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Cook, F. L. (Lambeth) Firbank, Joseph Thomas
Biddulph, Michael Cornwallis, Fiennes S. W. Fisher, William Hayes
Bigwood, James Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D. Flower, Ernest
Blundell, Colonel Henry Cox, Irwin E. Bainbridge Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Cross, A. (Glasgow) Gibbons, J. Lloyd
Bousfield, William Robert Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton) Gibbs, Hon. V. (St. Albans)
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Cubitt, Hon. Henry Giles, Charles Tyrrell
Brookfield, A. Montagu Curzon, Viscount Gilliat, John Saunders
Bullard, Sir Harry Dalrymple, Sir Charles Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.
Burdett-Coutts, W. Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham) Goldsworthy, Major-General
Gordon, Hon. John Edward Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon Lowe, Francis William Rutherford, John
Gosechen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (St. Geo's Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Sharpe, William Edward T.
Goschen, George J. (Sussex) Macartney, W. G. Ellison Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)
Goulding, Edward Alfred MacIver, David (Liverpool) Simeon, Sir Barrington
Graham, Henry Robert Malcolm, Ian Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)
Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'y Melville, Beresford Valentine Stanley, Sir H. M. (Lambeth)
Gretton, John Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo. Mildmay, Francis Bingham Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. Wm. Milner, Sir Frederick George Stock, James Henry
Hanson, Sir Riginald Milton, Viscount Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Henderson, Alexander Monk, Charles James Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter More, Rt. Jasper (Shropshire) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol) Morgan, Hon. F.(Monm'thsh. Thorburn, Walter
Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampste'd Morrell, George Herbert Thornton, Percy M.
Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) Morton, A. H. A.(Deptford) Tollemache, Henry James
Hobhouse, Henry Murray, Rt. Hon. A.G.(Bute) Tomlinson, Wm. Edw.Murray
Holland, Hon. Lionel R. (Bow Murray, Chas. J.(Coventry) Tritton, Charles Ernest
Hornby, Sir William Henry Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Valentia, Viscount
Howell, William Tudor Nicol, Donald Ninian Wanklyn, James Leslie
Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent)
Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Penn, John Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Percy, Earl Williams, Jos. Powell-(Birm.
Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Pierpoint, Robert Willox, Sir John Archibald
Jenkins, Sir John Jones Pilkington, R.(Lancs, Newton) Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Wortley, Rt. Hn. C.B. Stuart-
Kenyon, James Priestley, Sir W. Overend (Edin. Wylie, Alexander
Kimber, Henry Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Wyndham, George
King, Sir Henry Seymour Purvis, Robert Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Lafone, Alfred Rankin, Sir James Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry) Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlepool) Younger, William
Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset) Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Mattltew W.
Llewellyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'ns'a Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) Round, James
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverpool Royds, Clement Molyneux
NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Allen, William (Gateshead) Hutton, Alfred E.(Morley) Power, Patrick Joseph
Ambrose, Robert Jacoby, James Alfred Provand, Andrew Dryburgh
Asher, Alexander Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.) Randell, David
Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire) Kearley, Hudson E. Reckitt, Harold James
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Lambert, George Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Barlow, John Emmott Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land Robson, William Snowdon
Billson, Alfred Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington Samuel, J.(Stockton on Tees)
Broadhurst, Henry Leng, Sir John Schwann, Charles E.
Caldwell, James Leuty, Thomas Richmond Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Cameron, Sir Charles(Glasgow Lewis, John Herbert Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Champbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Lloyd-George, David Shaw, Thomas(Hawick B.)
Cawley, Frederick Logan, John William Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire)
Clough, Walter Owen MacAleese, Daniel Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Colville, John MacDonnell, Dr. M A (Queen's C Souttar, Robinson
Condon, Thomas Joseph M'Crae, George Spicer, Albert
Crilly, Daniel M'Dermott, Patrick Steadman, William Charles
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) M'Gee, Richard Stevenson, Francis S.
Dalziel, James Henry M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Davitt, Michael M'Leod, John Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)
Dillon, John Maddison, Fred. Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Donelan, Captain A. Maden, John Henry Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Doogan, P. C. Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel) Wallace, Robert
Duckworth, James Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.)
Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan) Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merth.) Weir, James Galloway
Fenwick, Charles Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Flynn, James Christopher Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) Williams, John Carvell (Notts.
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Norton, Capt. Cecil William Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Goddard, Daniel Ford Nussey, Thomas Willans Yoxall, James Henry
Gold, Charles O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.
Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Causton.
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William Oldroyd, Mark
Harwood, George O'Malley, William
Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale- Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

Question put accordingly, "That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 184; Noes, 101. (Division List, No. 256.)

AYES.
Allsopp, Hon. George Fardell, Sir T. George Milton, Viscount
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw. Monk, Charles James
Arnold, Alfred Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)
Atkinson, Right Hon. John Finch, George H. Morgan, Hn. F.(Monmouthsh.
Balcarres, Lord Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Morrell, George Herbert
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(Man.) Firbank, Joseph Thomas Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G.W.(Leeds) Fisher, William Hayes Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)
Barnes, Frederic Gorell Flower, Ernest Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)
Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(H'nts) Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Bartley, George C. T. Gibbons, J. Lloyd Nicol, Donald Ninian
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. Giles, Charles Tyrrell Penn, John
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Brstl.) Gilliat, John Saunders Percy, Earl
Beach, W. W. B. (Hants) Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. Pierpoint, Robert
Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull Goldsworthy, Major-General Pilkington, R.(Lancs,Newton)
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Gordon, Hon. John Edward Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Bigwood, James Goschen, Rt Hn G J (St George's) Priestley, Sir W. Overend (Edin.
Blundell, Colonel Henry Goschen, George J. (Sussex) Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Goulding, Edward Alfred Purvis, Robert
Bousfield, William Robert Graham, Henry Robert Rankin, Sir James
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Brookfield, A. Montagu Green, W. D. (Wednesbury) Richardson, Sir T.(Hartlepool)
Bullard, Sir Harry Gretton, John Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.
Burdett-Coutts, W. Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson
Butcher, John George Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. W. Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derby.) Hanson, Sir Reginald Round, James
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Henderson, Alexander Royds, Clement Molyneux
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Hermon-Hodge, R. Trotter Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Hill, Sir E. S. (Bristol) Rutherford, John
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Hoare, E. B. (Hampstead) Sharpe, William Edward T.
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) Sidebottom, T.H. (Stalybridge
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Hobhouse, Henry Simeon, Sir Barrington
Charrington, Spencer Holland, Hon. L. R. (Bow) Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)
Chelsea, Viscount Hornby, Sir W. Henry Stanley, Sir H. M. (Lambeth)
Clare, Octavius Leigh Howell, William Tudor Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Clarke, Sir Edward (Plymouth Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M.
Coddington, Sir William Hutchinson, Capt. G.W.Grice- Stock, James Henry
Coghill, Douglas Harry Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Shurt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Jenkins, Sir John Jones Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Compton, Lord Alwyne Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir J. H. Thorburn, Walter
Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) Kenyon, James Thornton, Percy M.
Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. King, Sir Henry Seymour Tollemache, Henry James
Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D. Lafone, Alfred Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray
Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Tritton, Charles Ernest
Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton) Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry) Valentia, Viscount
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset) Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E. (Kent)
Curzon, Viscount Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swans'a Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Williams, J. Powell- (Birm.)
Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham) Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) Willox, Sir John Archibald
Denny, Colonel Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverpool) Wortley, Rt. Hn.C. B. Stuart-
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Wylie, Alexander
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Lowe, Francis William Wyndham, George
Dorington, Sir John Edward Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H.
Doughty, George Macartney, W. G. Ellison Wyvill, Marmaduke d'Arcy
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- MacIver, David (Liverpool) Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Doxford, William Theodore Malcolm, Ian Younger, William
Drucker, A. Melville, Beresford Valentine
Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Milner, Sir Frederick George
NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Atherley-Jones, L. Billson, Alfred
Allan, William (Gateshead) Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire) Broadhurst, Henry
Ambrose, Robert Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Caldwell, James
Asher, Alexander Barlow, John Emmott Cameron, Sir Charles (Glasgow
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland) Randell, David
Cawley, Frederick Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington) Reckitt, Harold James
Clough, Walter Owen Leng, Sir John Roberts, J. H. (Denbighs)
Colville, John Leuty, Thomas Richmond Robson, William Snowdon
Condon, Thomas Joseph Lewis, John Herbert Samuel, J. (Stockton on Tees)
Crilly, Daniel Lloyd-George, David Schwann, Charles E.
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Logan, John William Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) Macaleese, Daniel Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford)
Dalziel, James Henry MacDonnell, Dr M. A (Queen's C Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Davitt, Michael M'Crae, George Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire)
Dillon, John M'Dermott, Patrick Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Donelan, Captain A. M'Ghee, Richard Souttar, Robinson
Doogan, P. C. M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Spicer, Albert
Duckworth, James M'Leod, John Steadman, William Charles
Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan) Maddison, Fred. Stevenson, Francis S.
Fenwick, Charles Maden, John Henry Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Flynn, James Christopher Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel) Thomas, Alfred (Glam., E.)
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Goddard, Daniel Ford Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr Trevelyan, Charles Phillips
Gold, Charles Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Wallace, Robert
Gourley, Sir Edward Temperley Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William Norton, Capt. Cecil William Weir, James Galloway
Harwood, George Nussey, Thomas Willans Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.) Williams, John Carvell (Notts)
Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Oldroyd, Mark Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Jacoby, James Alfred O'Malley, William Yoxall, James Henry
Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) Pearson, Sir Weetman D.
Kearley, Hudson E. Pickersgill, Edward Hare TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
kilbride, Denis Power, Patrick Joseph Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Causton.
Lambert, George Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

Clause 3:—

MR. DALZIEL (Kirkcaldy Burghs)

The Amendment I have to move is a perfectly innocent one, and in ordinary circumstances I am certain it would have been accepted by the Government.

Attention called to the fact that forty Members were not present; House counted, and, forty Members being found present:

MR. DALZIEL

I was saying that my Amendment is a perfectly innocent one, and under ordinary circumstances I should have hoped that it would have been accepted. But I am afraid the attitude of the Government towards all Amendments, innocent and uninnocent, gives me little hope that I shall be any more successful than some of my colleagues have been with their Amendments. The object of my Amendment is to alter the title of the Bill from "Tithe Rent-charge (Rates) Act, 1899," to "Tithe Rent-charge (Rates Relief) Act, 1899." That is an Amendment which I think is obvious on the face of it. The Solicitor-General will agree that the title of an Act of Parliament should, as far as possible, convey the meaning of the Act and give it a particular identification from all other Acts dealing with the same subject. We have already other Acts dealing with tithe—I do not know how many—and it would be an advantage if anyone wished to turn it up and refer to it, so as to understand its meaning, if the word I have suggested were inserted. I think that the clergymen who gain by this Bill will not deny that they are obtaining relief, and the Government will not deny that they are giving the clergy relief. I am sure the Amendment will not do the Bill any harm, and it better expresses the object of the Bill than the present title. I hope the hon. and learned Member the Solicitor-General will accept the addition of the word "Relief," and make it unnecessary to have further discussion.

Amendment proposed— In page 3, line 1, after the word 'Rates,' to insert the word 'Relief.'"—(Dr. Dalziel.)

Question proposed, "That the word 'Relief' be there inserted."

SIR R. B. FINLAY

I know how anxious the hon. Gentleman is to save the time of the Committee, and it gives me some pleasure in these circumstances to say at once that I am not able to accede to his request. He said that his Amendment was an innocent one, but innocence is not quite enough to induce its acceptance. It is necessary that there should be something in the Amendment. I am quite unable to see why the title of the measure should be amended in the direction desired. It is not usual to go into detail in the title if it sufficiently indicates the general subject dealt with. That subject is sufficiently indicated in the title, "Tithe Rent-charge (Rates) Act, 1899," and therefore I cannot recommend the acceptance of the Amendment.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

As another Member anxious to save the time of the Committee, I wish to support the Amendment of my hon. friend. The hon. and learned Solicitor-General says that the mere fact of innocence is not enough for the acceptance of an Amendment; but earlier in the evening the only argument he advanced for the retention of some words in the Bill was that they would do no harm. But that is not my argument in favour of the Amendment. I think the title of a Bill ought to indicate clearly the nature of the Bill, so that the public should know what really its object is. If anyone looked at the title of the Bill as it stands, he would think that it had something to do with rating. It has nothing whatever to do with rating. I am sure the hon. and learned Solicitor-General will admit that. It does not affect rating; it does not touch assessment; and there is nothing about valuation in it. If the recommendations of the hon. member for Stroud and those who co-operated with him on the Royal Commission had been adopted, and changes had been made in the rating of the clergy, I quite admit that this might have been a very fair description of the Bill. But what is the nature of the transaction? The rating of the clergy is not touched; the rates of the clergy are not touched; everything is to remain exactly as it is, and only a certain amount of relief is to be given to the clergy. If you want a simple, condensed description of what the nature and character of the Bill is, it is "Tithe Rent-charge (Rates Relief) Bill." So far as the popular mind is concerned it is really a Bill granting an addition to the endowment of the Church of England. A better description would have been "a Bill for making an addition to the stipends of the clergy," for its object is really a vote by Parliament to add £87,000 a year to the salaries or stipends of the clergy of the Established Church. I think the Committee ought to characterise this Bill according to the real nature of the transaction embodied in it. Why should the Government be afraid of it unless they are ashamed of this transaction? Why not call it by its proper name? They are actually afraid to put in a condensed form the character of the transaction.

MR. BROADHURST (Leicester)

I join in the appeal to the Solicitor-General to be reasonable. The Government have not up to the present exercised much reason in regard to the conduct of this Bill. I am bound to admit that there have been Amendments which I have supported which have perhaps been not quite so sensible as this. I cannot conceive anything more just than to ask that the Bill should be described in language in harmony with its nature. This is essentially an "Outdoor Relief Bill." Had I been consulted, I should have suggested as a description, "Tithe Rent-charge Out-door Relief Bill." Had we innocents, who are not favoured with a knowledge of the law, not been joining in the discussion of the Bill, we should not have known the meaning of it from its title, which is absolutely misleading. It is a strong thing to say that the Government gave it this title in order to mislead. I should not like to be so offensive as to suggest that; but many people would say so, and I am bound to admit that they would not be indulging in great inaccuracy. I think I know what the Solicitor-General is after; it is to see that nothing is done, or undone, that will necessitate a Report stage. I really think we ought to have one small concession in the demands of reason, truth, and justice before we part with this Bill.

MR. D. A. THOMAS

I think this is an Amendment which the hon. Gentlemen opposite might very well accept. It is very reasonable, and the arguments on which my hon. friend based it must commend themselves to the Committee. I hope my hon. friend, unless he gets a far more satisfactory reply than he has done, will press the Amendment to a Division. The hon. and learned Member opposite has frankly acknowledged that we on this side of the House have no desire to prolong proceedings, and for my part, although the closure has been moved against me more than once, I have not put a single Amendment on the Paper that has not been in order. Well, the hon. and learned Member said it was not enough for an Amendment to be childlike and innocent. I do not know what he meant; but I remember his Leader coming down here and saying that on certain matters he was a child. In this matter we are children, and I do not think the hon. and learned Gentlemen ought to take any exception to us on that ground. The title of the Bill as proposed by the hon. and learned Member is distinctly misleading. It says, "This Act may be cited as the Tithe Rent-charge (Rates) Act, 1899." After the discussions we have had, who can say in truth that that is an accurate description of the Bill? It only applies to one section of tithe rent-charge, to the tithe rent-charge attached to a benefice, and I say that the title is a distinct misnomer.

* THE CHAIRMAN

Order, order! That is not the point before the Committee. The point is the word "relief."

MR. D. A. THOMAS

It is not a relief to the lay impropriator, or to the tithe rent-charge belonging to colleges and schools. But even as it is, the word "relief" will make the title more appropriate to the character of the Bill.

MR. NUSSEY (Pontefract)

I really think that this additional word "relief" does describe the purpose of the Bill more accurately than the description the Government have adopted. We are told the true principle underlying the Bill is the principle of justice, and that it was introduced in order to do justice to the clergy who have paid too much rates. I cannot see that the addition of this word "relief" interferes with the principle of justice. Then we are told that the Bill was introduced for personal services.

* THE CHAIRMAN

This is not the opportunity for reviewing all the Debates.

MR. NUSSEY

I bow to your ruling, Mr. Lowther. I would like to show that this word "relief" more accurately describes the character of the Bill than the Government in its infinite wisdom—

* THE CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member is now repeating arguments which have already been used.

MR. NUSSEY

I will not go beyond that. The actual interpolation of the word "relief" does not cast any slur whatever on the clergy. I am sure my hon. friend would not have moved it if he thought the word cast any slur on the clergy at all. The object is more accurately to convey to the electors at large the real object of the Bill, and as such I hope the Government will accept it.

MR. SAMUEL EVANS

Whenever the Government do not like the real object of a Bill to be exposed they always adopt a misnomer of a title. For instance, they introduce a "Rating Machinery Bill." But it is not a Bill for rating of machinery, but for the exemption of machinery from rating. I do not like the title of the Bill, or even the title, "The Clergy Relief Bill." To paraphrase a classical quotation, "How unhappy could I be with either." But by any other name this Bill would be to me equally unsweet.

MR. MADDISON (Sheffield, Brightside)

I have no legal knowledge, and therefore it is almost presumption for me to follow the Solicitor-General, but I do not understand the meaning of the word "rates" as introduced.

* THE CHAIRMAN

Order, order! That is not the Question. The Question is that the words "rates relief" should be inserted.

MR. MADDISON

I think the word "relief" should certainly be inserted, because unless you have something to indicate the character of the Bill, you will have a peculiar anomaly. Take the City of Sheffield. The title, "Tithe Rent Charge (Rates) Bill," would be entirely misleading to that great Yorkshire city, because the rates there do not apply to tithe rent-charge at all. There is not in that city a single penny of tithe rent-charge, although of course, as my hon. friend reminds me, the inhabitants of that city will have to pay. That is part of the policy of the Bill that I am not allowed to go into, and I do not wish to appear to do so. My only point is that this Bill is misleading, because it gives a title that has no application to certain districts of the country. Therefore, if the word relief, or if some other better word than relief, could be inserted in the title, it would give not merely an innocent appearance to the Bill, but an accurate description to the Bill itself. I certainly do think, while I cannot agree with the hon. Member for Leicester that this is the most important Amendment moved, that it is a substantial Amendment, that is to say, if the Government desire that the description of the Bill shall give any indication of its contents. The chances are that the Government, wise in their day and generation, do not want this to be done, but still I think that the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill ought really to favourably consider either the actual word moved, or some other similar word in order to give the Bill an accurate description.

* MR. CARVELL WILLIAMS

There is one provision in this Bill to which the

proposed title of the Bill certainly is not applicable. The second sub-section of Clause 2 differs from all the other provisions of the Bill in this respect, that other provisions of the Bill relate to clergymen whose incomes are dependent upon the receipt of tithe rent-charge; but Subsection 2 of Clause 2 relates to quite another—

* THE CHAIRMAN

Order, order! That part of the Bill has been passed, and the hon. Member cannot refer back to it.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 105; Noes, 175. (Division List, No. 257.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Goddard, Daniel Ford O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Allan, William (Gateshead) Gold, Charles Oldroyd, Mark
Ambrose, Robert Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley O'Malley, William
Asher, Alexander Hazell, Walter Palmer, George Wm.(Reading
Austin, Sir J. (Yorkshire) Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Horniman, Frederick John Power, Patrick Joseph
Barlow, John Emmott Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Provand, Andrew Dryburgh
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Randell, David
Billson, Alfred Jacoby, James Alfred Reckitt, Harold James
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez Ed. Rickett, J. Compton
Burns, John Kilbride, Denis Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Caldwell, James Labouchere, Henry Samuel, J. (Stockton on Tees)
Cameron, Sir C. (Glasgow) Langley, Batty Schwann, Charles E.
Cameron, Robert (Durham) Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington) Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Leng, Sir John Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Causton, Richard Knight Leuty, Thomas Richmond Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Clark, Dr. G. B.(Caithness-sh) Lewis, John Herbert Souttar, Robinson
Clough, Walter Owen Macaleese, Daniel Spicer, Albert
Colville, John MacDonnell, Dr. M. A. (Q'n's C. Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.
Condon, Thomas Joseph M'Crae, George Steadman, William Charles
Crilly, Daniel M'Dermott, Patrick Stevenson, Francis S.
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) M'Ghee, Richard Stuart, James (Shoreditch)
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) M'Kenna, Reginald Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Davies, M. V.- (Cardigan) M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Thomas, Alfred(Glamorgan, E.
Davitt, Michael M'Leod, John Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr)
Dillon, John Maddison, Fred. Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Donelan, Captain A. Maden, John Henry Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)
Doogan, P. C. Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand Weir, James Galloway
Duckworth, James Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel) Whiteley, George (Stockport)
Dunn, Sir William Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan) Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr Williams, John Carvell (Notts.
Evershed, Sydney Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Fenwick, Charles Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) Yoxall, James Henry
Flynn, James Christopher Norton, Capt. Cecil William TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Foster, Sir W. (Derby Co.) Nussey, Thomas Willans Mr. Dalziel and Mr. Broadhurst.
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.
NOES.
Allsopp, Hon. George Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W.(Leeds) Bathurst, Hon. A. B.
Archdale, E. Mervyn Banbury, Frederick George Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull
Arnold, Alfred Barnes, Frederic Gorell Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts Bentinck, Lord Henry C.
Balcarres, Lord Bartley, George C. T. Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) Barton, Dunbar Plunket Biddulph, Michael
Bigwood, James Giles, Charles Tyrrell Morrison, Walter
Blundell, Colonel Henry Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Goldsworthy, Major-General Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)
Bousfield, William Robert Gordon, Hon. John Edward Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Brookfield, A. Montagu Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Bullard, Sir Harry Goulding, Edward Alfred O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Burdett-Coutts, W. Graham, Henry Robert Pierpoint, Robert
Butcher, John George Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Pilkington, R. (Lancs., Newton)
Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbysh.) Green, Walford D (Wednesbury Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Gretton, John Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Gull, Sir Cameron Priestley, Sir W. O.(Edin.)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord George Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Hanbury, Rt Hon. Robert Wm. Purvis, Robert
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Hanson, Sir Reginald Rankin, Sir James
Charrington, Spencer Helder, Augustus Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Chelsea, Viscount Henderson, Alexander Richards, Henry Charles
Clare, Octavius Leigh Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)
Clarke, Sir Edw. (Plymouth) Hill, Sir Edward Stock (Bristol) Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson
Coddington, Sir William Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead) Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Coghill, Douglas Harry Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) Royds, Clement Molyneux
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Hobhouse, Henry Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Holland, Hon. Lionel R. (Bow) Rutherford, John
Compton, Lord Alwyne Hornby, Sir William Henry Savory, Sir Joseph
Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) Howell, William Tudor Sharpe, William Edward T.
Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Sidebottom, T. Harrop (Stalybr.
Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Edw.T.D. Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Simeon, Sir Barrington
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Stanley, Sir Hy. M. (Lambeth)
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Jenkins, Sir John Jones Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Stock, James Henry
Curzon, Viscount Kemp, George Strauss, Arthur
Dalkeith, Earl of Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Kenyon, James Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chath'm Kimber, Henry Thorburn, Walter
Denny, Colonel King, Sir Henry Seymour Thornton, Percy M.
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Lafone, Alfred Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Disraeli, Conings by Ralph Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Tritton, Charles Ernest
Dorington, Sir John Edward Lea, Sir Thomas (Londonderry Valentia, Viscount
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Leighton, Stanley Ward, Hon. Robt. A. (Crewe)
Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset) Warde, Lt.-Col. C.E. (Kent)
Doxford, William Theodore Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swans. Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E.
Drucker, A. Lockwood, Lieut.-Colonel A. R. Williams, Jos. Powell-(Birm.).
Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Willox, Sir John Archibald
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham) Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Fardell, Sir T. George Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverpool Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Wylie, Alexander
Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) Lowe, Francis William Wyndham, George
Finch, George H. Lowles, John Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lucas-Shadwell, William Young, Commander (Berks, E.
Firbank, Joseph Thomas Macartney, W. G. Ellison Younger, William
Fisher, William Hayes MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Flower, Ernest Melville, Beresford Valentine TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Foster, Harry S.(Suffolk) Monk, Charles James Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Gibbons, J. Lloyd More, R. Jasper (Shropshire)
Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans Morrell, George Herbert

Question put, "That Clause 3 stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 184; Noes, 118. (Division List No. 258.)

AYES.
Allsopp, Hon. George Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol Butcher, John George
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)
Arnold, Alfred Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Cavendish, V. C.W. (Derbysh.
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Cayzer, Sir Charles William
Balcarres, Lord Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Biddulph, Michael Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.
Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W.(Leeds Bigwood, James Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.
Banbury, Frederick George Blundell, Colonel Henry Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc
Barnes, Frederic Gorell Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry
Barry, Rt Hn A H. Smith-(Hunts Bousfield, William Robert Charrington, Spencer
Bartley, George C. T. Brookfield, A. Montagu Chelsea, Viscount
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Bullard, Sir Harry Clare, Octavins Leigh
Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin Burdett-Coutts, W. Clarke, Sir Edward (Plym'th)
Coddington, Sir William Hanson, Sir Reginald Muray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Coghill, Douglas Harry Helder, Augustus O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Henderson, Alexander Pierpoint, Robert
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton)
Compton, Lord Alwyne Hill, Sir Edward Stock(Bristol) Platt- Higgins, Frederick
Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) Hoare, Edw Brodie (Hampstead Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. Hoare, Samuel (Norwich) Priestley, Sir W. Overend (Edin.
Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D. Hobhouse, Henry Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Holland, Hon. Lionel R. (Bow) Purvis, Robert
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Hornby, Sir William Henry Rankin, Sir James
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Houston, R. P. Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Curzon, Viscount Howell, William Tudor Richards, Henry Charles
Dalkeith, Earl of Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlepool)
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. T.
Davies, Sir H. D.(Chatham) Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Robertson, H. (Hackney)
Denny, Colonel Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick Royds, Clement Molyneux
Dickson-Poynder, Sir J. P. Jenkins, Sir John Jones Russell, T. w. (Tyrone)
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Rutherford, John
Dorington, Sir John Edward Kemp, George Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. E. J.
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. Savory, Sir Joseph
Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. Kenyon, James Sharpe, W. E. T.
Doxford, William Theodore Kimber, Henry Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)
Drucker, A. King, Sir Henry Seymour Simeon, Sir Barrington
Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Lafone, Alfred Stanley, Sir H. M. (Lambeth)
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Lawson, John Grant (Yorks) Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Fardell, Sir T. George Lea, Sir T. (Londonberry) Stock, James Henry
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edwd. Leighton, Stanley Strauss, Arthur
Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) Llewellyn, E. H. (Somerset) Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Finch, George H. Llewelyn. Sir D.-(Swansea) Sturt, Hon. H. Napier
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R. Sutherland, Sir Thomas
Firbank, Joseph Thomas Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Thorburn, Walter
Fisher, William Hayes Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) Thornton, Percy M.
Flower, Ernest Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverpool) Tomlinson, W. E.Murray
Foster, Harry S.(Suffolk) Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Tritton, Charles Ernest
Gibbons, J. Lloyd Lowe, Francis William Valentia, Viscount
Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) Lowles, John Ward, Hon. R. A. (Crewe)
Giles, Charles Tyrrell Lucas-Shadwell, William Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E. (Kent)
Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Macartney, W. G. Ellison Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E.
Goldsworthy, Major-General MacIver, David (Liverpool) Williams, J. Powell-(Birm.)
Gordon, Hon. John Edward Melville, Beresford Valentine Willox, Sir J. Archibald
Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon Milton, Viscount Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
Goulding, Edward Alfred Monk, Charles James Wylie, Alexander
Graham, Henry Robert More, R. Jasper (Shropshire) Wyndham, George
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Morrell, George Herbert Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Green, Walford D (Wednesbury Morrison, Walter Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Gretton, John Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) Younger, William
Gull, Sir Cameron Muntz, Philip A. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G.(Bute) Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Hanbury, Rt. Hn. RobertWm. Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Condon, Thomas Joseph Hayne, Rt. Hn. Chas. Seale-
Allan, William (Gateshead) Crilly, Daniel Hazell, Walter
Ambrose, Robert Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Hedderwick, Thomas C. H.
Asher, Alexander Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H.
Atherley-Jones, L. Dalziel, James Henry Horniman, Frederick John
Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire) Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Davitt, Michael Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)
Barlow, John Emmott Dillon, John Jacoby, James Alfred
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire Donelan, Captain A. Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez E.
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Doogan, P. C. Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)
Billson, Alfred Duckworth, James Kilbride, Denis
Broadhurst, Henry Dunn, Sir William Labouchere, Henry
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan) Lambert, George
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Evershed, Sydney Langley, Batty
Burns, John Fenwick, Charles Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)
Caldwell, James Flynn, James Christopher Leng, Sir John
Cameron, Sir Charles(Glasgow) Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Leuty, Thomas Richmond
Cameron, Robert (Durham) Goddard, Daniel Ford Lewis, John Herbert
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Gold, Charles Lloyd-George, David
Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.) Gourley, Sir E. Temperley Logan, John William
Clough, Walter Owen Haldane, Richard Burdon Macaleese, Daniel
Colville, John Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. MacDonnell, Dr. M. A. (Qn's C.
M'Crae, George O'Malley, William Steadman, William Charles
M'Dermott, Patrick Palmer, Sir Charles M.(Durham Stevenson, Francis S.
M'Ghee, Richard Palmer, George Wm.(Reading) Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
M'Kenna, Reginald Pickersgill, Edward Hare Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)
M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Power, Patrick Joseph Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
M'Leod, John Provand, Andrew Dryburgh Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Maddison, Fred Randell, David Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.
Maden, John Henry Reckitt, Harold James Weir, James Galloway
Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand Rickett, J. Compton Whiteley, George (Stockport)
Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel) Roberts, John H. (Denbighsh.) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) Williams, John Carvell (Notts.
Morgan, W. P. (Merthyr) Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Schwann, Charles E. Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) Yoxall, James Henry
Norton, Capt. Cecil William Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Nussey, Thomas Willans Smith, Samuel (Flint) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Souttar, Robinson Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Causton.
O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Spicer, Albert
Oldroyd, Mark Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.

Clause 4:—

MR. LEWIS

On a point of order I wish to ask whether, if I move the Amendment which stands in my name, it will have the effect of cutting out the Amendment which stands in the name of the hon. Member for Merthyr, which comes next, or whether the hon. Member's Amendment will be saved when you put the Question?

* THE CHAIRMAN

I will put the Amendment in such a way as to safeguard the hon. Member's Amendment.

MR. HERBERT LEWIS

Then I beg to move the Amendment which stands in my name. The effect of the Amendment will be practically to postpone the coming into effect of the Bill until the Royal Commission has reported, and until the Agricultural Rates Act has ceased to exist. The whole subject of local rating will then have to be considered, and a decision applicable to the whole subject can be taken. If this Act is postponed in its operation until the Agricultural Rates Act has expired the country will have an opportunity of thoroughly considering it. If it is a just measure it will, of course, remain, with the assent of the country, upon the Statute Book; if it is an unjust measure, the country will have an opportunity of considering the question of the incidence of local taxation as a whole. I think that everyone admits that a radical reform of local taxation is necessary, and that that question ought to be considered and dealt with as a whole. But the object of my Amendment is to enable the question to be considered as a whole. The grievance—or the alleged grievance—which this Bill has been introduced to remedy has existed for at least 300 years, and we are asked to consider and satisfactorily settle the whole question in three weeks. All I ask in my Amendment is that the matter shall stand over for two years, so that after 300 years the country may have the opportunity of considering whether it is right to make the change or not. What is the use of bringing in a Bill of this sort, the effect of which will only be to last two years? It leaves the clergy themselves in a state of uncertainty. A man receives an addition to his income, and he puts up his expenditure accordingly. At the end of two years it is possible that his income may have to come down again. Under these circumstances it is surely very unwise for the House, following the lead of the hon. and learned Member for Stroud, to plunge into these interim Reports and dangerous experiments without having any clear or adequate notion whether the country in two years' time will sanction the Bill and make it a permanent measure or not. If justice—and this is supposed to be the keynote of this Bill—if justice is to be enacted at all, then let it be enacted for all time and after full consideration, and not after two or three weeks' discussion. I think I have said enough—I do not want to detain the Committee at this hour of the evening—I think I have said enough to show that my Amendment is one of a reasonable character. I know that the Government have made up their minds to reject every Amendment that may be moved, however reasonable. I do not think that they will improve the respect which the country—or some small section of the country—may entertain for this Bill by the action that they are taking. What are we here for? Are we here to discuss Amendments or not? Why did not the Minister for Agriculture or the Leader of the House tell us: "You may discuss this Bill if you like for a week or a fortnight or a month—"

* THE CHAIRMAN

Order, order! That is not relevant to the subject.

MR. LEWIS

I was only proceeding to say with regard to this particular Amendment that I had not any very great hope that it would be accepted. Still, at the same time I commend it to the attention of the Government and of the Committee, in the hope that at the eleventh hour it may be accepted.

Amendment proposed— In page 2, line 3, to leave out from the word 'shall,' to the word 'said,' in line 9, and insert the words, 'not come into operation until the expiration of the.'"—(Mr. Herbert Lewis.)

Question proposed, "That the words of the clause to 'any,' in line 4, stand part of the clause."

MR. D. A. THOMAS

Upon a point of order, I would suggest to you, Sir, that in putting this Amendment you should save not only one which I have upon the Paper, but one which I have handed in in manuscript, the object of which is to prevent the Government from passing this Bill within a stated period.

* THE CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member's Amendment does not come in until line 7.

MR. LONG

The Amendment proposed by the hon. Gentleman is no doubt a reasonable one from his point of view. We were foolish enough to believe that by following the precedent of the Agricultural Rating Act of 1896, we should have received the approbation of the hon. Member opposite and his support in favour of restricted legislation. He does not appear however, to agree to the principle of limiting the Act to two years. The effect of the Amendment would be that at the end of two years the Bill would become permanent in its operation. This proposal appears to be carrying the Bill further than we desire.

The Bill has been introduced as a temporary measure on the recommendation of the Royal Commissioners, and we propose, pending a final settlement of the whole question of local taxation, that a hardship which presses with particular severity on one class of the community should be dealt with in a temporary but effective measure, and I hope the Committee, will reject this very insidious proposal. I suggest to hon. Members, in the interest of the Committee as a whole, that the discussion should be mainly directed to the important and substantial Amendments on the Paper, rather than to those which raise minor questions of interest.

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR

Will the right hon. Gentleman accept any?

MR. LONG

My suggestion was chiefly made in the interest of hon. Members opposite, and on the presumption that they had a real interest in the Amendments appearing in their names on the Paper. If they have no real interest in them, but merely move them to occupy the time of the Committee, then obviously the closure will meet our purpose. I ask the Committee to decide against this Amendment.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

The right hon. Gentleman has made an appeal to us that we shall proceed to discuss the Amendments which appear on the Paper, and no doubt we shall do so. We have plenty of time to do that before the end of the session; it can be done on Monday. The clergy are not in such a hurry to get ther money as all that, and even if they were, there is no rate until September, so there is no need for us to hurry. The right. hon. Gentleman seems to be very much afraid that, if he accepts my hon. friend's Amendment, after two years' consideration, Parliament would not put this Bill into operation. But the right hon. Gentleman says, "Why not do as you did in the Agricultural Rating Act? You then appealed to us to make it only for five years, and then a Royal Commission was appointed to inquire into the whole matter of taxation." That was the mistake which we made in dealing with the Agricultural Rating Act—first of all in voting the money allocated by it on the expectation that the Royal Commission would consider the question relegated to it. But the Commission has not done so. And what we now say in respect of this Bill is, "You shall have the money after you have considered the question, but not before. We shall not give you the money for two years."

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR

I understood the right hon. Gentleman to make a declaration which I am sorry he did not consider earlier, and I should like to ask him, and we on this side of the House would like to know, the precise meaning of his declaration that these Amendments should be discussed shortly, in order that we might consider the more important Amendments. That declaration is extremely reasonable, and we only now desire to know which of what he considers the more important Amendments he is prepared to accept.

MR. LONG

I am afraid the hon. Gentleman entirely misunderstood me. I made the suggestion in the interests of hon. Gentlemen opposite. I thought they would discriminate between them. If they are all important, our position becomes much easier.

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR

If the right hon. Gentleman means that if we concentrate our attention on certain interesting and important Amendments we would have some chance of getting even two or three Amendments accepted, there may be some reason for listening to the suggestion; but if, on the other hand, when those Amendments have had the attention of the Committee, the right hon. Gentleman is going to meet them with the same non possumus, we should only be wasting his time and our own.

* THE CHAIRMAN

I would respectfully invite the Committee to return to the consideration of the Amendment.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

The right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill having made a proposal, I think the Committee ought to be allowed really to understand the nature of the offer that has been made. What I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say was, that there are a certain number of Amendments, some of which are more important than others, and that if we economised the time on the less important, and devoted it to the more important Amendments, that would be far the better course. The Committee would be glad to know what amount of time they will be allowed to apportion between the various Amendments.

MR. LONG

rose.

* THE CHAIRMAN,

speaking amid cries of "Long," again said: I would again respectfully invite the Committee to consider the Amendment before the House.

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR

Before you put the Question, Sir, I must again appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to say what he meant.

* THE CHAIRMAN

That is not relevant to the question before the Committee. I have permitted the hon. Gentleman the Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool and the right hon. Gentleman the member for West Monmouth to make statements because the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill made a statement, but I think the Committee ought to return again to the consideration of the Amendment.

MR. DALZIEL

I propose to return to the Amendment. I do not think the case put forward for the Amendment has been answered by the right hon. Gentleman. The question I was going to put is this: If an injustice exists now and has existed for some time, and if it is the intention of the Bill to remedy that injustice, why is the Government only going to remedy it for two years? Why does not the right hon. Gentleman take the responsibility of making this a permanent measure? It seems to me here is a case for the contention of my hon. friend. We are to have a Report of the Commission, but no one can tell when. I always notice that, when once a Commission is appointed, if the secretary draws a good salary, it takes a very long time to report. Let us wait for the Report of this Commission, and when we have the full facts we shall know how to deal with them.

MR. MADDISON

I support the Amendment because it delays the passing of this measure until the Royal Commission reports, and the Agricultural Rating Act comes to an end. Although the Bill has only been under discussion for two or three days there are already signs that it is viewed with great dissatisfaction in the country. The County Council of the West Riding, containing a majority I believe of gentlemen who hold views similar to those of the hon. Gentlemen opposite, have taken very strong exception to one of the most important provisions in the Bill, and the City Council of Sheffield, where parties are evenly balanced, passed a resolution with only three or four dissentients condemning the Bill. I consider the Amendment is a reasonable one, and I think it is unreasonable on the part of the Government to oppose all these Amendments as they have done, and I think they are doing themselves a great injustice in attempting to rush this Bill.

MR. LAMBERT

I should like to know whether this Bill is on all fours with the Agricultural Rating Bill of 1896. Will it apply to the new works of the parish councils, which the Agricultural Rating Act did not?

SIR R. B. FINLAY

It will apply to all rates without exception.

MR. LABOUCHERE (Northampton)

This Bill has been sprung upon us, and neither we nor the country have had sufficient time to consider its effect. My hon. friend's proposition is that it should not become operative for two years, and that after that time it should become permanent. If I were perfectly certain we should win the next General Election—I think we shall, but we can never be absolutely certain on these matters—I should support that, but if we lose the General Election we shall have this Bill for another six years, and the question is whether we had not better lose the money for two years and then let the Act lapse, or whether we should pay the money permanently.

* LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE (Wiltshire, Cricklade)

Before the Question is put I wish to ask, seeing that the Agricultural Rating Act, 1896, intentionally or not, does not apply to the parish council rate in regard to the repayment from the Local Taxation Fund, though it applies to other rates, whether it is intended that this Act should have attached to it the same exclusion or exemption.

SIR. R. B. FINLAY

The answer to that really turns upon the question of who are the spending authorities. The spending authorities are mentioned in the Agricultural Rating Act, 1896. We have no such definition here, because the scheme of the Bill in that respect is different from the Act of 1896. There is no fixed sum paid yearly during the continuance of the Act for authorities defined as spending authorities, but the condition is that half of all rates, with the exceptions specified in the clause under consideration, should be borne by the incumbent, and the other half paid in the manner prescribed.

* LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

But the incumbent in this case will obtain the benefit of a reduction of half the parish council rate?

SIR R. B. FINLAY

Certainly.

MR. LOGAN (Leicestershire, Harborough)

The right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill said that those of us who voted for this Amendment would be voting for making the Bill a dummy Bill. I do not understand that to be the object of my hon. friend. His object is that during the next two years the country shall have an opportunity of realising the provisions of this Bill as they seem to have been realised inn certain parts of the country. At the expiration of that time I believe that no Government will have the nerve to bring in a similar Bill. By that time the nation will have realised that this is a Bill to relieve parsons from rates which they do not pay. There is no man who will under this Bill have half his rates paid for him in the future, but was allowed when his stipend was settled the full value of the rates which he would have to pay. Therefore I am absolutely accurate when I say that this is a Bill to relieve parsons of rates which they have not got to pay. On that ground I shall have the very greatest pleasure indeed in supporting my hon. friend in the Division Lobby in endeavouring to give the country an opportunity of realising what is the object of the Government in bringing in this iniquitous measure.

MR. CAWLEY (Lancashire, Prestwich)

This Amendment will give the country an opportunity of considering the measure—

* THE CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member is anticipating his Third Reading speech.

MR. CAWLEY

I will not pursue that point. But this Amendment will give the country a great chance of really considering the question thoroughly. When this measure was sprung upon the House very few Members on either side really understood the question. We on this side of the House have had a chance of being educated by our colleagues. Members on the other side have had the same chance of being educated—whether or not they have taken advantage of it I do not know. What I would point out is that the country is being educated by the Debates in this House, and if they have a chance of two years' education they may come to a different conclusion than the majority in the House anticipate. Therefore, I say that the majority in this House do not represent the majority in the country.

* MR. CARVELL WILLIAMS

I should like the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill to tell us on what ground the operation of this measure is to be limited to the continuance of the Agricultural Rating Act of 1896. That is a piece of information which has not been given throughout the discussion. The Agricultural Rating Act was, beyond all question, due to agricultural depression, but we have been told again and again that this Bill has no connection whatever with agricultural depression. That being the case, why should this limitation be imposed? It is utterly inconsistent with all the arguments which have been used in support of the Bill. In truth, the course pursued by the Government has been a mass of inconsistencies from beginning to end.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 244; Noes, 148. (Division List, No. 259.)

AYES.
Allsopp, Hon. George Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Firbank, Joseph Thomas
Arnold, Alfred Charrington, Spencer Fisher, William Hayes
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Chelsea, Viscount Flower, Ernest
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Clare, Octavius Leigh Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)
Bailey, James (Walworth) Clarke, Sir Edw.(Plymouth) Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)
Baillie, James E. B.(Inverness) Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Gibbons, J. Lloyd
Baird, John George Alexander Coddington, Sir William Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans)
Balcarres, Lord Coghill, Douglas Harry Gilliat, John Saunders
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Cohen, Benjamin Louis Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Goldsworthy, Major-General
Banbury, Frederick George Compton, Lord Alwyne Gordon, Hon. John Edward
Barnes, Frederic Gorell Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) Gorst, Rt. Hon.Sir John Eldon
Barry, Rt Hn A H. Smith-(Hunts Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. Goschen, Rt Hn G. J (St George's
Bartley, George C. T. Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Edw. T. D. Goschen, George J. (Sussex)
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Goulding, Edward Alfred
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Cripps, Charles Alfred Graham, Henry Robert
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol) Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants) Cross, Herb. Shepherd(Bolton) Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)
Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull Cruddas, William Donaldson Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Cubitt, Hon. Henry Gretton, John
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Curzon, Viscount Gull, Sir Cameron
Beresford, Lord Charles Dalkeith, Earl of Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo.
Bigwood, James Davies, Sir Hor. D.(Chatham) Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. Wm.
Bill, Charles Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Hanson, Sir Reginald
Blundell, Colonel Henry C. Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Hardy, Laurence
Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon Hare, Thomas Leigh
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Dorington, Sir John Edward Heaton, John Henniker
Bousfield, William Robert Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Helder, Augustus
Brassey, Albert Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. Henderson, Alexander
Brookfield, A. Montagu Doxford, William Theodore Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter
Bullard, Sir Harry Drucker, A. Hill,Sir Edward Stock(Bristol)
Burdett-Coutts, W. Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Hoard, Edw Brodie (Hampstead
Butcher, John George Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. Hart Hobhouse, Henry
Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs.) Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Holland, Hon. Lionel R. (Bow)
Cavendish, V. C. W. (D'rbyshire Fardell, Sir T. George Hornby, Sir William Henry
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir. J. (Manc.) Houston, R. P.
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Field Admiral (Eastbourne) Howell, William Tudor
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn.J.(Birm. Finch, George H. Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn
Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Milton, Viscount Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybridge)
Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies Monk, Charles James Simeon, Sir Barrington
Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) Smith, J. Parker (Lanarks.)
Jenkins, Sir John Jones Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh. Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Morrell, George Herbert Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)
Jolliffe, Hon. H. George Morrison, Walter Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Kemp, George Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H. Mount, William George Stock, James Henry
Kenyon, James Muntz, Philip A. Strauss, Arthur
Kimber, Henry Murray, Rt. Hon. A.G.(Bute) Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
King, Sir Henry Seymour Murray, Charles J.(Coventry) Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Lafone, Alfred Murray, Col.Wyndham (Bath) Sutherland, Sir Thomas
Laurie, Lieut.-General Nicholson, William Graham Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Lawrence, Wm. F.(Liverpool) Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford Thorburn, Walter
Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Thornton, Percy M.
Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry) Pender, Sir James Tollemache, Henry James
Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. Edw. H. Percy, Earl Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray
Leighton, Stanley Pierpoint, Robert Tritton, Charles Ernest
Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset) Pilkington, R.(Lancs, Newton) Valentia, Viscount
Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swans.) Platt-Higgins, Frederick Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H.
Lockwood, Lt.-Colonel A.R. Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Wanklyn, James Leslie
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Ward, Hon. Robert A. (Crewe)
Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham Purvis, Robert Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E. (Kent)
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverpool Quilter, Sir Cuthbert Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Rankin, Sir James Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Lorne, Marquess of Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Williams, J. Powell-(Brim.)
Lowe, Francis William Rentoul, James Alexander Willox, Sir John Archibald
Lowles, John Richards, Henry Charles Wilson, J. W. (Wercestersh., N.)
Loyd, Archie Kirkman Richardson, Sir T.(Hartlepool) Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)
Lucas-Shadwell, William Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W. Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson Wylie, Alexander
Macartney, W. G. Ellison Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Wyndham, George
Macdona, John Cumming Round, James Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H.
MacIver, David (Liverpool) Royds, Clement Molyneux Wyvill, Marmaduke d'Arcy
M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Malcolm, Ian Rutherford, John Younger, William
Martin, Richard Biddulph Samuel, Harry S.(Limehouse)
Melville, Beresford Valentine Saunderson, Rt.Hon. Col. E.J. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas. John Savory, Sir Joseph
Mildmay, Francis Bingham Seely, Charles Hilton
Milner, Sir Frederick George Sharpe, William Edward T.
NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Condon, Thomas Joseph Hedderwick, Thos. Chas. H.
Allan, William (Gateshead) Crilly, Daniel Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H.
Ambrose, Robert Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) Holland, Wm. H. (York, W. R.
Asher, Alexander Dalziel, James Henry Horniman, Frederick John
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Hy. Davies, M. V.-(Cardigan) Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.
Atherley-Jones, L. Davitt, Michael Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)
Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire) Dillon, John Jacoby, James Alfred
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Donelan, Captain A. Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez E.
Barlow, John Emmott Doogan, P. C. Joicey, Sir James
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Duckworth, James Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea)
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Dunn, Sir William Jones, W. (Carnarvonshire)
Billson, Alfred Edwards, Owen Morgan Kearley, Hudson, E.
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Ellis, John Edward Kinloch, Sir J. G. Smyth
Broadhurst, Henry Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Labouchere, Henry
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Evans, Sir Francis H. (South'ton Langley, Batty
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Evershed, Sydney Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland)
Burns, John Fenwick, Charles Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)
Burt, Thomas Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Leng Sir John
Buxton, Sydney Charles, Flynn, James Christopher Leuty, Thomas Richmond
Caldwell, James Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Lloyd-George, David
Cameron, Sir C. (Glasgow) Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Logan, John William
Cameron, Robert (Durham) Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J. Lough, Thomas
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Goddard, Daniel Ford Macaleese, Daniel
Causton, Richard knight Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley MacDonnell, Dr M A.(Queen'sC
Cawley, Frederick Gurdon, Sir Wm. Brampton M'Arthur, W. (Cornwall)
Channing, Francis Allston Haldane, Richard Burdon M'Crae, George
Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.) Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. M'Dermott, Patrick
Clough, Walter Owen Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- M'Ewan, William
Colville, John Hazell, Walter M'Ghee, Richard
M'Kenna, Reginald Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.) Stevenson, Francis S.
M'Laren, Charles Benjamin Pickersgill, Edward Hare Stuart, James (Shoreditch)
M'Leod, John Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs. S W Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Maddison, Fred. Power, Patrick Joseph Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)
Maden, John Henry Price, Robert John Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand Priestly, Briggs (Yorks.) Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)
Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel) Provand, Andrew Dryburgh Weir, James Galloway
Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen Randell, David Whitely, George (Stockport)
Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr Reckitt, Harold James Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Rickett, J. Compton Williams, John Carvell (Notts.
Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Morton, E. J. C.(Devonport) Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Moulton, John Fletcher Samuel, J.(Stockton-on-Tees) Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Norton, Capt. Cecil William Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) Wilson, John (Govan)
Nussey, Thomas Willans Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudders.
O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal) Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Woods, Samuel
O'Connor, James (Wicklow,W. Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire) Yoxall, James Henry
O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Oldroyd, Mark Souttar, Robinson TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
O'Malley, William Spicer, Albert Mr. Herbert Lewis and Mr. Lambert.
Palmer, Sir Charles M.(Durh'm Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.
Palmer, George Wm.(Reading) Steadman, William Charles
MR. D. A. THOMAS

I move this Amendment with a degree of diffidence, because of what has fallen from the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill, and because, in his august presence, I am not sure that any Amendment of mine will be regarded as important. Earlier in the evening he asked me whether I was serious. In moving this Amendment I assure him and the Committee that I am as serious and sincere and conscientious as the right hon. Gentleman himself could possibly be in promoting the Bill. I am not going to say anything about his impartiality, because I am sure the Chairman would rule me out of order. I wish to thank the hon. and learned Member the Solicitor-General for acknowledging that he recognised that the Amendments moved from this side of the House were not moved with any intention of prolonging the proceedings on this Bill. (Laughter.) Hon. Members may laugh, but the Solicitor-General said that, and, as far as I could see, with all seriousness. To come to this Amendment, I moved a similar one upon the Agricultural Rating Bill of 1896. It was then supported with almost unanimity on this side, and received some support on the other side of the House, while in the country it received a still larger measure of support. That being so, I venture to think that an Amendment exempting the poor-rate should receive infinitely more support in relation to this particular Bill than in the case of the Agricultural Rating Act. There can be no question at all that, at any rate up to the days of Elizabeth—in fact, I challenge hon. Members to deny that in the first instance— the relief of the poor came out of the tithe. It was not a question of paying a small rate for that purpose, but at the very least one-third of the tithe went to the relief of the poor. If that was the case at the origin of the tithe and for many centuries after, I say that even now the question of the rate for the relief of the poor ought to be exempted from a measure which proposes to relieve parsons from half the rates which they now pay. The grounds for my motion are very substantial, and with all seriousness I venture to commend it to the Committee.

Amendment proposed— In page 2, line 4, after the word 'except' to insert the words 'any rate levied in relief of the poor or.'"—(Mr. D. A. Thomas.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. LONG

I hope I may be allowed to assure the hon. Gentleman that when I referred to the seriousness of his previous Amendment I did not mean to throw the slightest doubt upon the sincerity of his motives. The present Amendment, I frankly admit, is a very substantial one—substantial because, if carried, it would destroy at least one-half of the effect of the Bill. It has been advanced and recommended to the Committee in a manner totally different from that which I had anticipated, and therefore the remarks I had prepared in answer to it are scarcely applicable. The hon. Gentleman has frankly told us that he casts aside altogether the historical arguments to which hon. Gentlemen on the other side have attached so much importance during previous discussions. He remarked upon the importance of the circumstances up to Queen Elizabeth, but what importance he attaches to the period since Queen Elizabeth's time I do not know. At any rate, he abrogates the whole historical argument.

MR. D. A. THOMAS

Oh, no!

MR. LONG

I admit that this is a substantial argument—that is to say, it raises a question which goes to the very foundation of the whole problem of the readjustment of local taxation. I am not casting any doubts upon the bona fides of the hon. Member or the sincerity of his motives in bringing forward Amendments, but this is an Amendment practically to the Second Reading, because it raises the whole question of the historical liability of certain classes of property to rates. Whatever may have been the case for the historical argument which has been urged with so much force by gentlemen opposite, Parliament has to realise that there has been a complete change in the capacity of different classes of property to bear the burden of local rates, and that, whatever may have been the case in the days when these burdens were created, at the present time the burden is unjustly distributed and the inequality ought to be redressed. To exclude from a measure of reform such as this the poor rate—which is probably at least half, and in some cases more than half—would be to make a farce of any reform of local taxation. Therefore, I think I am justified in saying that it is unnecessary and undesirable that we should go at this period of the Debate, on an Amendment in Committee, into the whole question, historical or otherwise, and I am justified, I think, in asking the Committee to reject this Amendment on the ground that in the first place, we have proved that the incidence of local taxation is unjust and unfair; and in the second place no attempt has been made to meet the argument that if this Amendment were carried it would reduce the relief in a degree for which there is no justification whatever. I therefore ask the Committee t6 resist this Amendment, and I hope they will do so, because we have so far established the case for those whom we seek to relieve.

MR. SAMUEL EVANS

I am sure the House will be very sorry that, by reason of the capital speech made by my hon. friend who moved this Amendment, the right hon. Gentleman has not been able to put before the House the observations which he had prepared in answer to this proposal. I suppose that is the reason why the right hon. Gentleman did not, so far as I could gather, adduce one single argument why this poor rate should be excused to one class of persons. He said my hon. friend has turned his back upon all ancient authorities; but he had done nothing of the kind, for he had not had time to get them out. Here is a book from which I should like to quote one passage. It is a book written by the hon. and learned Member for Stroud, and in it he invites us to go back to ancient history, and this is what the hon. and learned Member says: During the first ages of Christianity —and I hope that goes back far enough to please the right hon. Gentleman-— Clergymen were supported by the voluntary offerings of their flock. It is a pity that that is not so now. Continuing the quotation, the hon. and learned Member says: But this being a precarious existence, the ecclesiastics in every country in Europe claimed, and, what is more important, in the course of time established, a right to the tenth part of the produce of the land. That is the origin of tithe in the early ages of Christianity. Then we have got this Report which is the foundation for this Bill, and it deals with the subject in extenso. In that Report the Commissioners go back further than the first ages of Christianity, for they go back to Leviticus. I venture to call the attention of the Committee to Clause 4 of the Report, which states that tithes were devoted to the maintenance of the church fabric, the use of the bishop and incumbent, and also: To some extent, to the feeding of the poor and the entertainment of the stranger. Apparently that "some extent" has vanished entirely now; and yet this is the rate which you are proposing to take, to the extent of one half of it, from the shoulders of those whose only excuse—if excuse they have—for taking the tithes at all is, that out of this rate they were, to the extent of one-third, willing to maintain the poor. I am inclined to cite one more authority, more particularly as I now see the First Lord of the Admiralty in his place. Hitherto, I think the only part which the right hon. Gentleman has taken in these discussions is the part of walking through the Lobby. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to call the attention of the Committee to some cogent observations made by him with respect to the poor rates. This is what he said: I rejoice to say that it seems that the turning point has arrived, and unless the House should take the dangerous step of supplementing the poor rates by grants from the Consolidated Fund, there may be some hopes of the poor rates being reduced. But I am certain that no step is more likely to increase our expenditure than if the House was to open the flood-gates of the Consolidated Fund. Those are opinions which the right hon. Gentleman expressed when he was in the prime of his manhood, and, so far as we

are concerned, we adhere to those very liberal opinions which he then expressed. No doubt the Committee will be glad of any enlightenment from the point of view of the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty, and we should like to hear some reason for his change of opinion. Unless he gives us some very good reason, we shall be forced to go into the Lobby in obedience to the call of my hon. friend the Member for Merthyr Tydvil. While the clergyman is to be relieved, the poor farmer has to pay his rates in full, and the clergyman is also being relieved of his duty to the poor. Therefore I think my hon. friend was justified in bringing forward this Amendment, for he is only putting forward opinions which were once held by the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty himself.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 149; Noes, 267. (Division List, No. 260.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Dunn, Sir William Lloyd-George, David
Allan, William (Gateshead) Edwards, Owen Morgan Logan, John William
Ambrose, Robert Ellis, John Edward Lough, Thomas
Asher, Alexander Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Macaleese, Daniel
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry Evans, Sir F. H. (South'ton) MacDonnell, Dr. M. A (Qu'n's C
Atherley-Jones, L. Evershed, Sydney M'Crae, George
Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire) Fenwick, Charles M'Dermott, Patrick
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Ferguson, R. C. Munro(Leith) M'Ewan, William
Barlow, John Emmott Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond M'Ghee, Richard
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Flynn, James Christopher M'Kenna, Reginald
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Foster, Sir W. (Derby Co.) M'Laren, Charles Benjamin
Billson, Alfred Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry M'Leod, John
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Goddard, Daniel Ford Maddison, Fred
Broadhurst, Henry Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley Maden, John Henry
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Gurdon, Sir Wm. Brampton Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Haldane, Richard Burdon Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel)
Burns, John Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Burt, Thomas Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr
Buxton, Sydney Charles Hazell, Walter Morley, Charles (Breconshire)
Caldwell, James Hedderwick, Thomas Chas. H. Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose
Cameron, Robert (Durham) Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H. Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Holland, W. H. (York, W.R.) Moulton, John Fletcher
Causton, Richard Knight Horniman, Frederick John Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Cawley, Frederick Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Nussey, Thomas Willans
Channing, Francis Allston Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.
Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.) Jacoby, James Alfred O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Clough, Walter Owen Joicey, Sir James Oldroyd, Mark
Colville, John Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea) O'Malley, William
Condon, Thomas Joseph Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) Palmer, Sir Charles M.(Durham
Crilly, Daniel Kearley, Hudson E. Palmer, George Wm.(Reading
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) Kilbride, Denis Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)
Dalziel, James Henry Kinloch, Sir John G. Smyth Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Lambert, George Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs, SW
Davitt, Michael Langley, Batty Power, Patrick Joseph
Dewar, Arthur Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land Price, Robert John
Dillon, John Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington) Priestley, Briggs (Yorks)
Donelan, Captain A. Leng, Sir John Randell, David
Doogan, P.C. Leuty, Thomas Richmond Reckitt, Harold James
Duckworth, James Lewis, John Herbert Rickett, J. Compton
Roberts, John H. (Denbighsh. Stevenson, Francis S. Wilson, Hy. J. (York, W. R.)
Robertson, Edmund(Dundee) Stuart, James (Shoreditch) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E. Wilson, John (Govan)
Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford) Thomas, David A. (Merthyr) Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh N.)
Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.) Woodhouse, Sir, J. T. (Hud'sfield
Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T. Woods, Samuel
Smith, Samuel (Flint) Wedderburn, Sir William Yoxall, James Henry
Souttar, Robinson Weir, James Galloway
Spicer, Albert Whiteley, George(Stockport) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. Whittaker, Thomas Palmer Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur.
Steadman, William Charles Williams, John Carvell (Notts.
NOES.
Allsopp, Hon. George Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D. Hare, Thomas Leigh
Anson, Sir William Reynell Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Heaton, John Henniker
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Cripps, Charles Alfred Helder, Augustus
Arnold, Alfred Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Henderson, Alexander
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter
Atkinson, Right Hon. John Cruddas, William Donaldson Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol)
Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitznoy Cubitt, Hon. Henry Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead)
Bailey, James (Walworth) Curzon, Viscount Hobhouse, Henry
Baillie, J. E. B. (Inverness) Dalkeith, Earl of Hulland, Hon. L. R. (Bow)
Baird, John George Alexander Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hornby, Sir William Henry
Balcarres, Lord Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chat'm Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(Man.) Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Houston, R. P.
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W.(Leeds) Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Howell, William Tudor
Banbury, Frederick George Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon Hozier, Hon. James H. Cecil
Barnes, Frederic Gorell Dorington, Sir John Edward Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn
Barry, Rt. Hn. A.H.S.-(Hunts Doughty, George Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice.
Barry, Sir F. T.(Windsor) Douglas, Rt. Hon. A Akers- Jackson, Rt. Hon. W. Lawies.
Bartley, George C. T. Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. Jebb, Richard Claverhouse
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Doxford, William Theodore Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick
Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. Drucker, A. Jenkins, Sir John Jones
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Brstol) Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)
Beckett, Ernest William Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Hart Joliffe, Hon. H. George
Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Kemp, George
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Fardell, Sir T. George Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H.
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn E. Kenyon, James
Beresford, Lord Charles Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J.(Manc'r Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) Kimber, Henry
Bigwood, James Finch, George H. King, Sir Henry Seymour
Bill, Charles Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lafone, Alfred
Blundell, Colonel Henry Firbank, Joseph Thomas Lauri, Lieut.-General
Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme Fisher, William Hayes Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Fison, Frederick William Lea, Sir Thos. (Londonderry)
Bousfield, William Robert Flower, Ernest Lecky, Rt. Hon. William E. H.
Brassey, Albert Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) Leighton, Stanley
Brookfield, A. Montagu Gedge, Sydney Llewellyn, Evan H. (Som'set.)
Bullard, Sir Harry Gibbons, J. Lloyd Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swan.)
Burdett-Coutts, W. Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond. Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.
Butcher, John George Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans Loder, Gerald Walter Ersk.
Carlile, William Walter Gilliat, John Saunders Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)
Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs.) Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (L'pool.)
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Goldsworthy, Major-General Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Gordon, Hon. John Edward Lorne, Marquess of
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Lowe, Francis William
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Goschen, Rt Hn G. J. (St George's Lowles, John
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm. Goschen, George J.(Sussex) Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Goulding, Edward Alfred Lucas-Shadwell, William
Charrington, Spencer Graham, Henry Robert Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred
Chelsea, Viscount Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Macartney, W. G. Ellison
Clare, Octavius Leigh Green, Walfort D (Wednesbury Macdona, John Cummnig
Clarke, Sir Edward(Plymouth Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Cochrane, Hon.Thos. H. A. E. Gretton, John M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)
Coddington, Sir William Greville, Hon. Ronald Malcolm, Ian
Coghill, Douglas Harry Gull, Sir Cameron Martin, Richard Biddulph
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Melville, Beresford Valentine
Collings, Rt, Hon. Jesse Halsey, Thomas Frederick Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Colomb, Sir J. Charles Ready Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo. Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas John.
Compton, Lord Alwyne Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. Wm. Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) Hanson, Sir Reginald Milner, Sir Frederick George
Cornwallis, Fiennes S. W. Hardy, Laurence Milton, Viscount
Milward, Colonel Victor Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester).
Monk, Charles James Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W. Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf. Univ.
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson Thorburn, Walter
More, R. Jasper (Shropshire) Robertson, Herbert(Hackney) Thornton, Percy M.
Morgan, Hn. Fred (Monm'thsh. Round, James Tollemache, Henry James
Morrell, George Herbert Royds, Clement Molyneux Tomlinson, W. E. Murray
Morrison, Walter Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Tritton, Charles Ernest
Morton, Arthur H.A.(Deptford Rutherford, John Valentia, Viscount
Mount, William George Ryder, John Herbert Dudley Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard
Muntz, Philip A. Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) Wanklyn, James Leslie
Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G.(Bute) Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles Ward, Hon. Robert A.(Crewe)
Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry) Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. E. J. Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E.(Kent)
Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Savory, Sir Joseph Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Nicholson, William Graham Seely, Charles Hilton Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon
Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford Seton-Karr, Henry Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd
O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Sharpe, William Edward T. Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Pender, Sir James Sidebottom, T. H.(Stalybr.) Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm
Penn, John Simeon, Sir Barrington Willox, Sir John Archibald
Percy, Earl Skewes-Cox, Thomas Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
Pierpoint, Robert Smith, J. P.(Lanarkshire) Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton Smith, Hn. W. F. D.(Strand) Wylie, Alexander
Platt-Higgins, Frederick Stanley, Hn. A.(Ormskirk) Wyndham, George
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Stephens, Henry Charles Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Purvis, Robert Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M. Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Quilter, Sir Cuthbert Stock, James Henry Younger William
Rankin, Sir James Strauss, Arthur
Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Rentoul, James Alexander Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Richards, Henry Charles Sutherland, Sir Thomas
MR. D. A. THOMAS

My object in moving this Amendment is to bring the Bill into conformity with Standing Order No. 45. If this Amendment is accepted, I propose at a later stage to move a new clause, which I have handed in, providing for the precise duration of the Act. This being only a temporary Bill, during the continuation of the Agricultural Rating Act, it is a measure of a temporary character, and certainly falls within the provisions of Standing Order No. 45. I know it will be argued that the Agricultural Rating Act did not comply with the Standing Orders. I do not see, because an oversight occurred in that Act, that it should be taken as a precedent. If we have Standing Orders, for Heaven's sake let us obey them. This Standing Order was passed in the year 1849, and I presume it was passed for some good and sufficient reason. I do not want the discussion on the Committee stage prolonged, and I will not delay the Committee from coming to a decision.

Another Amendment proposed— In page 2, line 7, to leave out from the word 'half' to the end of the clause."—(Mr. David Thomas.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

MR. LONG

I understand the hon. Gentleman moves this Amendment in order to establish his contention that the first clause of the Bill is not in accordance with the Standing Order. Whether the clause is or is not in accordance with the Standing Order, rests with a higher authority than myself. This Bill was drawn with a full knowledge of the provisions of that Standing Order, and every possible step was taken by the framers of the Bill to see that the Standing Order was complied with. I want to point out to the hon. Gentleman that he is adopting a form of Amendment which would be, to say the least of it, extremely inconvenient. He proposes to remove the words which contain the date when the Act will come into force. It is absolutely necessary that the date should be stated when the new rating system comes into operation.

MR. D. A. THOMAS

I have provided for that by a new clause.

MR. LONG

Yes, but I am dealing with the hon. Member's Amendment as it stands. Whether he would be able afterwards to secure the introduction of other words is a totally different thing, which we cannot discuss at the present time. It is sufficient for me, as the Minister in charge of the Bill, to say that every step necessary was taken in order to procure that the framing of the Bill was in compliance with the Standing Orders.

MR. D. A. THOMAS

As a point of order, Mr. Lowther, I wish to ask you whether the Bill is in compliance with the Standing Order.

* THE CHAIRMAN

That is not a question for me to decide. The Bill in

its present state was referred to the Committee. If there was anything improper in the shape of the Bill, objection ought to have been taken before the Bill was referred to the Committee. The Second Reading of the Bill cures any defect.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 274; Noes, 152. (Division List, No. 261.)

AYES.
Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden Compton, Lord Alwyne Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Allsopp, Hon. George Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) Halsey, Thomas Frederick
Anson, Sir William Reynell Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord George
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D. Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.
Arnold, Alfred Cox, Irwin Edward B. Hanson, Sir Reginald
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Cripps, Charles Alfred Hardy, Laurence
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Hare, Thomas Leigh
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Cross, Herbert S.(Bolton) Heaton, John Henniker
Bailey, James (Walworth) Cubitt, Hon. Henry Helder, Augustus
Baillie, James E.B.(Inverness) Curzon, Viscount Henderson, Alexander
Baird, John George Alexander Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter
Balcarres, Lord Dalkeith, Earl of Hill, Sir Edwd. Stock (Bristol)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampste'd
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W.(Leeds) Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham) Hobhouse, Henry
Banbury, Frederick George Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow)
Barnes, Frederic Gorell Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Hornby, Sir William Henry
Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts Dixon-Hartland, Sir Frd. Dixon Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Barry, Sir Francis T.(Windsor) Dorington, Sir John Edward Houston, R. P.
Bartley, George C. T. Doughty, George Howell, William Tudor
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn
Beach, Rt Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol) Doxford, William Theodore Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-
Beckett, Ernest William Drucker, A. Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies
Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Jebb, Richard Claverhouse
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Dyke, Rt Hn. Sir William Hart Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas Jenkins, Sir John Jones
Beresford, Lord Charles Fardell, Sir T. George Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edwd. Jolliffe, Hon. H. George
Bigwood, James Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r Kemp, George
Bill, Charles Field, Admiral(Eastbourne) Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir J. H.
Blundell, Colonel Henry Finch, George H. Kenyon, James
Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Firbank, Joseph Thomas Kimber, Henry
Bousfield, William Robert Fisher, William Hayes King, Sir Henry Seymour
Brassey, Albert Fison, Frederick William Lafone, Alfred
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Flower, Ernest Laurie, Lieut.-General
Brookfield, A. Montagu Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)
Ballard, Sir Harry Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry
Burdett-Coutts, W. Galloway, William Johnson Lecky, Rt. Hn. William E. H.
Butcher, John George Gedge, Sydney Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)
Carlile, William Walter Gibbons, J. Lloyd Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond. Leighton, Stanley
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbys.) Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans) Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset)
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Gilliat, John Saunders Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'nsea
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Goldsworthy, Major-General Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Chamberlain, Rt.Hn.J.(Birm. Gordon, Hon. John Edward Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Livep'l)
Charrington, Spencer Goschen, Rt Hn G. J. (St George Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller
Chelsea, Viscount Goschen, George J.(Sussex) Lorne, Marquess of
Clare, Octavius Leigh Goulding, Edward Alfred Lowe, Francis William
Clarke, Sir E. (Plymouth) Graham, Henry Robert Lowles, John
Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E. Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Coddington, Sir William Green, Walford D. (Wedn'sbury Lucas-Shadwell, William
Coghill, Douglas Harry Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs. Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Gretton, John Macartney, W. G. Ellison
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Greville, Hon. Ronald Macdona, John Cumming
Colomb, Sir John Charles R. Gull, Sir Cameron MacIver, David (Liverpool)
M'Iver, Sir L. (Edinburgh,W.) Quilter, Sir Cuthbert Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Malcolm, Ian Rankin, Sir James Sutherland, Sir Thomas
Martin, Richard Biddulph Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Melville, Beresford Valentine Rentoul, James Alexander Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G.(Ox.Un.)
Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Richards, Henry Charles Thorburn, Walter
Milbank, Sir Powlett C. John Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l) Thornton, Percy M.
Mildmay, Francis Bingham Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matt. W. Tollemache, Henry James
Milner, Sir Frederick George Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray
Milton, Viscount Robertson, Herbert(Hackney) Tritton, Charles Ernest
Milward, Colonel Victor Round, James Valentia, Viscount
Monk, Charles James Royds, Clement Molyneux Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H.
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Wanklyn, James Leslie
More, R. Jasper (Shropshire) Rutherford, John Ward, Hon. Robert A.(Crewe)
Morgan, Hon. F. (Monm'thsh.) Ryder, John Herbert Dudley Warde, Lieut.-Col.C.E.(Kent)
Morrell, George Herbert Samuel, Harry S.(Limehouse) Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Morrison, Walter Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Morton, Arthur H.A.(Deptford Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Ed. J. Wharton, Rt. Hon. J. Lloyd.
Mount, William George Savory, Sir Joseph Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Muntz, Philip A. Seely, Charles Hilton Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)
Murray, Rt. Hon. A.G.(Bute) Seton-Karr, Henry Williams, Jos. Powell-(Birm.)
Murray, Charles J.(Coventry) Sharpe, William Edward T. Willox, Sir John Archibald
Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath) Sidebottom, T. Harrop (Stalybr. Wilson, John(Falkirk)
Nicholson, William Graham Simeon, Sir Barrington Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)
Nicol, Donald Ninian Skewes-Cox, Thomas Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)
Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford Smith, James P.(Lanarks.) Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Smith, Hn. W. F. D.(Strand) Wylie, Alexander
Pender, Sir James Spencer, Ernest Wyndham, George
Penn, John Stanley, Hn. A.(Ormskirk) Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Percy, Earl Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Pierpoint, Rich.(Lancs, Newton Stephens, Henry Charles Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Platt-Higgins, Frederick Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. Younger, William
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Stock, James Henry TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther
Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Strauss, Arthur
Purvis, Robert Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Duckworth, James Leese, Sir J. E. (Accrington)
Allison, Robert Andrew Dunn, Sir William Leng, Sir John
Ambrose, Robert Edwards, Owen Morgan Leuty, Thomas Richmond
Asher, Alexander Ellis, John Edward Lewis, John Herbert
Atherley-Jones, L. Evans, Sir F. H.(South'ton) Lloyd-George, David
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Evershed, Sydney Logan, John William
Barlow, John Emmott Fenwick, Charles Lough, Thomas
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Ferguson, R. C. M.(Leith) MacAleese, Daniel
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond MacDonnell, Dr M A. (Queen's C
Billson, Alfred Flynn, James Christopher M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) M'Crae, George
Broadhurst, Henry Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry M'Dermott, Patrick
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Gladstone, Rt. Hon. H. John M'Ewan, William
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Goddard, Daniel Ford M'Ghee, Richard
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Gourley, Sir E. Temperley M'Kenna, Reginald
Burns, John Gurdon, Sir Wm. Brampton M'Laren, Charles Benjamin
Burt, Thomas Haldane, Richard Burdon M'Leod, John
Caldwell, James Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Maddison, Fred.
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- Maden, John Henry
Causton, Richard Knight Hazell, Walter Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand
Cawley, Frederick Hedderwick, Thomas C. H. Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel)
Channing, Francis Allston Holland, W. H.(York, W.R.) Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen
Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.) Horniman, Frederick John Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr
Clough, Walter Owen Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Morley, Charles (Breconshire)
Colville, John Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley) Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose
Condon, Thomas Joseph Jacoby, James Alfred Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)
Crilly, Daniel Joicey, Sir James Moulton, John Fletcher
Crombie, John William Jones, D. Brymnore (Swansea) Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) Nussey, Thomas Willans
Dalziel, James Henry Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt Hn Sir U. O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.
Davies, M. Vanghan-(Cardigan Kearley, Hudson E. O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Davitt, Michael Kilbride, Denis Oldroyd, Mark
Dewar, Arthur Kinloch, Sir John G. Smyth O'Malley, William
Dillon, John Labouchere, Henry Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham
Donelan, Captain A. Lambert, George Palmer, George Wm.(Reading)
Doogan, P. C. Langley, Batty Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland) Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs. S W Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfars.) Whiteley, George (Stockport)
Power, Patrick Joseph Smith, Samuel(Flint) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Price, Robert John Soames, Arthur Wellesley Williams, J. Carvell (Notts)
Priestley, Briggs (Yorks.) Souttar, Robinson Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull)
Provand, Andrew Dryburgh Spicer, Albert Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.)
Randell, David Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. Wilson, John(Durham Mid.)
Reckitt, Harold James Steadman, William Charles Wilson, John (Govan)
Rickett, J. Compton Stevenson, Francis S. WilsonJos. H. (Middlesbrough)
Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) Stuart, James (Shoreditch) Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huders)
Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) Woods, Samuel
Robson, William Snowdon Thomas, Alfred (Glamor., E.) Yoxall, James Henry
Samuel,J.(Stockton-on-Tees) Walton, John Law. (Leeds,S.)
Scott Ch. Prestwich (Leigh) Warner, Thomas CourtenayT. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Shaw, Charles Edward (Staf.) Wedderburn, Sir William Mr. D. A. Thomas and Mr. Samuel Evans.
Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Weir, James Galloway

Question put, "That Clause 4 stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 270; Noes, 155. (Division List, No. 262.)

AYES.
Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden Coddington, Sir William Goschen, Rt Hn G. J. (St George's
Allsopp, Hon. George Coghill, Douglas Harry Goschen, George J. (Sussex)
Anson, Sir William Reynell Cohen, Benjamin Louis Goulding, Edward Alfred
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Graham, Henry Robert
Arnold, Alfred Colomb, Sir J. Charles Ready Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Compton, Lord Alwyne Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'ry
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W Gretton, John
Bailey, James (Walworth) Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D. Greville, Hon. Ronald
Baillie, James E. B.(Inverness Cox, Irwin Edw. Banibridge Gull, Sir Cameron
Baird, John George Alexander Cripps, Charles Alfred Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Balcarres, Lord Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton) Halsey, Thomas Frederick
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J.(Manc'r Cubitt, Hon. Henry Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord George
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W.(Leeds Curzon, Viscount Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.
Banbury, Frederick George Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh Hanson, Sir Reginald
Barnes, Frederic Gorell Dalkeith, Earl of Hardy, Laurence
Barry, Rt Hn A. H. Smith-(Hts. Dalrymple, Sir Charles Hare, Thomas Leigh
Barry, Sir Francis T.(Windsor Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham) Heaton, John Henniker
Bartley, George C. T. Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Helder, Augustus
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Henderson, Alexander
Beach, Rt Hn Sir M.H.(Bristol Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. D. Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter
Beckett, Ernest William Dorington, Sir John Edward Hill, Sir Edward Stock(Bristol)
Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull Doughty, George Hoare, Ed. Brodie (Hampstead
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Hobhouse, Henry
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. Holland, Hn. Lionel R. (Bow)
Beresford, Lord Charles Doxford, William Theodore Hornby, Sir William Henry
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Drucker, A. Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Bigwood, James Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Houston, R. P.
Bill, Charles Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Hart Howell, William Tudor
Bludell, Colonel Henry Elliot, Hon. A. R. Douglas Hozier, Hon. James Hy. Cecil
Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme Fardell, Sir T. George Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw. Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-
Bousfield, William Robert Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manch Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies
Brassey, Albert Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) Jebb, Richard Claverhouse
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Finch, George H. Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick
Brookfield, A. Montagu Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Jenkins, Sir John Jones
Bullard, Sir Harry Firbank, Joseph Thomas Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)
Burdett-Coutts, W. Fisher, William Hayes Jolliffe, Hon. H. George
Butcher, John George Fison, Frederick William Kemp, George
Carlile, William Walter Flower, Ernest Kenyon, James
Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs.) Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William
Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbysh. Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk) Kimber, Henry
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Galloway, William Johnson Lafone, Alfred
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Gedge, Sydney Laurie, Lieut-General
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Gibbons, J. Lloyd Lawson, John Grant (Yorks)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.(City of Lon Lea, Sir Thos. (Londonderry)
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. Ed. H.
Charrington, Spencer Gilliat, John Saunders Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)
Chelsea, Viscount Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk. Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie
Clare, Octavius Leigh Goldsworthy, Major-General Leighton, Stanley
Clarke, Sir Edwd.(Plymouth) Gordon, Hon. John Edward Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E. Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John E. Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'ns'a
Lockwood, Lieut.-Colonel A. R. O'Neil, Hon. Robert Torrens Stephens, Henry Charles
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Pender, Sir James Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham Penn, John Stock, James Henry
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverp'l) Percy, Earl Strauss, Arthur
Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Pierpoint, Robert Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Lorne, Marquess of Pilkington, R. (Lancs. Newton Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Lowe, Francis William Platt-Higgins, Frederick Sutherland, Sir Thomas
Lowles, John Powell, Sir Francis Sharp Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Loyd, Archie Kirkman Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G (Oxf'd Univ.
Lucas-Shadwell, William Purvis, Robert Thorburn, Walter
Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred Quilter, Sir Cuthbert Thornton, Percy M.
Macartney, W. G. Ellison Rankin, Sir James Tollemache, Henry James
Macdona, John Cumming Rasch, Major Frederic Carne Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray
MacIver, David (Liverpool) Rentoul, James Alexander Tritton, Charles Ernest
M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinb.,W.) Richards, Henry Charles Valentia, Viscount
Malcolm, Ian Richardson, Sir Thos.(Hartlep'l Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard
Martin, Richard Biddulph Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W. Wanklyn, James Leslie
Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson Ward, Hon. Robt. A. (Crewe)
Melville, Beresford Valentine Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E. (Kent)
Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Robinson, Brooke Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas. John Round, James Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Mildmay, Francis Bingham Royds, Clement Molyneux Wharton, Rt. Hon. J. Lloyd
Milner, Sir Frederick George Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Milton, Viscount Rutherford, John Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)
Milward, Colonel Victor Ryder, John Herbert Dudley Williams, J. Powell- (Birm.)
Monk, Charles James Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse) Willox, Sir John Archibald
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath)
More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. E. J. Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh. Savory, Sir Joseph Wylie, Alexander
Morrell, George Herbert Seely, Charles Hilton Wyndham, George
Morrison, Walter Seton-Karr, Henry Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H.
Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptf'd.) Sharpe, William Edward T. Wyvill, Marmaduke d'Arcy
Mount, William George Sidebottom, T. Harrop (Stalybr. Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Muntz, Philip A. Simeon, Sir Barrington Younger, William
Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute) Skewes Cox, Thomas
Murray, Charles J.(Coventry) Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath) Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Nicholson, William Graham Spencer, Ernest
Nicol, Donald Ninian Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)
Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Dalziel, James Henry Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.
Allison, Robert Andrew Davies,M Vaughan-(Cardigan) Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)
Ambrose, Robert Davitt, Michael Jacoby, James Alfred
Asher, Alexander Dewar, Arthur Joicey, Sir James
Atherley-Jones, L. Dillon, John Jones, David Brymnor (Swan.
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Donelan, Captain A. Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.
Barlow, John Emmott Doogan, P. C. Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt Hn Sir U.
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) Kearley, Hudson E.
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Duckworth, James Kilbride, Denis
Billson, Alfred Dunn, Sir William Kinloch, Sir J. George Smyth
Birrell, Augustine Edwards, Owen Morgan Labouchere, Henry
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Ellis, John Edward Lambert, George
Broadhurst, Henry Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Langley, Batty
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson Evans, Sir F. H. (South'ton) Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'l'nd
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Evershed, Sydney Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn Fenwick, Charles Leng, Sir John
Burns, John Ferguson, R.C. Munro(Leith) Leuty, Thomas Richmond
Burt, Thomas Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Lewis, John Herbert
Caldwell, James Flynn, James Christopher Lloyd-George, David
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) Logan, John William
Causton, Richard Knight Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Lough, Thomas
Cawley, Frederick Goddard, Daniel Ford MacAleese, Daniel
Channing, Francis Allston Gourley, Sir E. Temperley MacDonnell, Dr. M. A. (Qu'ns C
Clark, Dr. G. B.(Caithness-sh.) Gurdon, Sir William Brampton MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
Clough, Walter Owen Haldane, Richard Burdon M'Crae, George
Colville, John Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. M'Dermott, Patrick
Condon, Thomas Joseph Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale- M'Ewan, William
Crilly, Daniel Hazell, Walter M'Ghee, Richard
Crombie, John William Hedderwick, Thomas C. H. M'Kenna, Reginald
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Holland, W. H.(York, W. R.) M'Laren, Charles Benjamin
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) Horniman, Frederick John M'Leod, John
Maddison, Fred Price, Robert John Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Maden, John Henry Priestley, Briggs (Yorks) Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.
Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand Provand, Andrew Dryburgh Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel) Randell, David Wedderburn, Sir William
Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen Reckitt, Harold James Weir, James Galloway
Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr Rickett, J. Compton Whiteley, George (Stockport)
Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Robert, John H. (Denbighs.) Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose Robson, William Snowdon Williams, John Carvell (Notts
Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull)
Moulton, John Fletcher Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.
Norton, Capt. Cecil William Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Nussey, Thomas Wilians Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Wilson, John (Falkirk)
O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.) Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire Wilson, John (Govan)
O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Smith, Samuel (Flint) Wilson, J. W.(Worcestersh.N.
Oldroyd, Mark Souttar, Robinson Wilson, J. H. Middlesbrough)
O'Malley, William Spicer, Albert Woodhouse, Sir. J. T. (Hud'sfield
Palmer, Sir Chas.M.(Durham) Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. Woods, Samuel
Palmer, Geo. Wm.(Reading) Steadman, William Charles Yoxall, James Henry
Pease, Joseph A.(Northumb.) Stevenson, Francis S.
Pickersgill, Edward H. Stuart, James (Shoreditch) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs S W Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur
Power, Patrick Joseph Thomas, Alfred(Glamorgan, E.

New Clause:—

* MR. LEWIS

The object of the new Clause I now propose is to exempt Wales from the operation of the Bill. I observe some of my colleagues have put down Amendments to a similar effect, and if my hon. friend the Member for Merthyr intends to move his Amendment, I am quite willing to accept the latter part of his clause, for I do not desire that Wales should lose any benefit to which it might otherwise be entitled under this Bill. We certainly should prefer that any money which Wales may have to pay under this Bill should be devoted to some educational purpose. There are plenty of Parliamentary precedents for dealing with Wales separately, so I need not labour that point. We have had a Sunday Closing Bill for Wales, and a Welsh Intermediate Education Bill which no one would now desire to see repealed; indeed, so beneficial has one of those Acts proved, that proposals have been made by a Royal Commission for extending it. But there are some Acts from which Wales would be gladly excluded, owing to the opinions of the majority of the population, and this is one of them. We have heard a good deal since last Monday of the injustice that this Bill will inflict upon other parts of the United Kingdom. That injustice is especially marked in the case of Wales. The Welsh nation is a nation of Nonconformists, and therefore the passing of this Act would be especially unjust to Wales. Welsh Nonconformists consider that the tithe at the present time is entirely misappropriated, and they hold that it should be applied to purely national purposes. They ob- ject to what they deem to be national property being paid into the coffers of one sect, and they think it is only adding a further injustice to relieve one particular class of the community at the expense of the nation generally. I have observed that hon. Gentlemen opposite representing Welsh constituencies have voted steadily, and with an almost pathetic fidelity, with the Government on most of the stages of this Bill. I see one or two of them who represent urban constituencies in South Wales, and I do not envy them the task of presenting to their constituents the case for this Bill. I have no doubt they will do it as ably and effectively as it can be done; they will make the best case for the most wretched Bill that was ever brought before this House; but still, at the same time, I have confidence as to what would be the result of an appeal to their constituents on this particular Bill. In the last Parliament we had no less than thirty-one out of thirty-four Welsh members pledged to redress the great injustice which the existence of religious inequality in the Principality entails. It is true that in this Parliament we have not so large a majority, but still there are twenty-five of us as against nine. You are forcing a measure down the throats of a people who, by twenty-five votes to nine, have declared their opposition to the kind of Bill you are now introducing—a measure which they view as a great act of injustice. Over and over again in the course of these Debates it has been asserted that this Bill is based on justice, but do you think it is right to make the Nonconformists of Wales, the people who have been doing the major part of the religious and spiritual work in that country during the past generation, to pay out of their own hard earnings a still further addition to the tithe in Wales? I ask the House is that justice to the country, a portion of which I represent? As the Committee is aware the tithe question has been a burning question in Wales in the past, and hundreds and thousands of farmers have undergone very severe pains and penalties rather than pay the tithe. The payment has been enforced, not merely by tithe bailiffs and emergency men, but also by the military forces of the Crown, and the Welsh Nonconformists have been made to feel a galling yoke. Thousands of people have been sold up rather than pay the tithe voluntarily, and these are the very men upon whom you are throwing an additional burden. I have spoken of them as the people who have been doing the spiritual work of the country. Let me give an instance—a parish which is typical of hundreds of other parishes in Wales. It is a large and populous parish. During the last few years mining centres have sprung up in different parts of it. There was one church in a small hamlet in a thinly populated part of the parish, and to the services of that church many hundreds of pounds of tithes were devoted annually. The rest of the tithe probably went into the coffers of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. What did the Church do in that parish? It maintained out of the money contributed by the tithe-payers, chiefly Nonconformists, one Church for a few people. What did the Nonconformists do in the populous mining and quarrying villages? They made religious provision for the inhabitants; they provided Sunday services for people who would otherwise have been altogether destitute of religious ministrations. That continued for a long time, and then the Ecclesiastical Commissioners provided another church. There are hundreds of country parishes in which there is one church attended by a small handful of people, but in which by far the greater portion of spiritual work is done by Nonconformists, who have no endowment in the shape of tithe to rely upon. The work has been done from first to last on the voluntary principle because their hearts were in it. They have provided theological colleges for the education of ministers. They have provided populous churchless places with ministers, and in places where there has been no minister there has been an energetic and devoted diaconate ready to conduct Sunday and week night services, to visit the sick, and to look after the religious training of the young. These are the people who have again and again declared against the Church Establishment and against the application of tithes to the support of the Church, and these are the people whom you are going to fine for the benefit of the clergy. I think our position was very well defined by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham when he said that the great principle of religious equality was everywhere slowly undermining the fabric of ecclesiastical privilege. Yet you are now building up a fabric of ecclesiastical privilege. The right hon. Gentleman told us further that this principle of religious equality was fatal to all State Churches, and that it would surely be applied to the Church in England, Scotland, and Wales. He further went on to point out the sentiment of the people of the Principality was more unanimous and the anomalies of the present arrangement were more striking and irritating in Wales than elsewhere, and it had, therefore, the first claim to their sympathy and support in its efforts to free itself from a burden which recent events, and especially the tithe agitation, had shown to be almost intolerable to the vast majority of the population. Yet you are now proposing to add to that burden. Let us see what the Nonconformists have been doing in Wales. In 1775 there were only 171 Nonconformist congregations, in 1816 the number had increased to 993, and in 1861 it was 2,927, while in 1892 it has risen to 4,262. More than 3,000 Nonconformist places of worship have been built in Wales within the last eighty years. in 1859 the communicants belonging to the four leading Welsh denominations numbered 258,000; in 1892 they had increased to 381,000, an addition of 44½ per cent. Now Wales is a small country, and these figures show that Nonconformity has increased very rapidly. I remember that when this subject was last mentioned in the House, the hon. Baronet the Member for Swansea drew attention to the increase of churches in the Rhondda Valley, that being the best example of progress the Establishment has to present in Wales. What are the facts in regard to that? In the year 1866 there were in this Valley four churches and eleven chapels; in 1870 there were seven churches and twenty-one chapels; in 1884 there were eleven churches and ninety-eight chapels; and in 1892 the figures showed sixteen churches and 117 chapels. And that is in the very heart of Wales, where the Church prides itself on progress it has made. Now I would remind the Committee that this is only a temporary Bill. It is only to last for two years, and I do not think that, in the course of those two years, the positions of the Church and Nonconformity are likely to be altered relatively to any material extent. I wish to ask the Government is there any limit whatever to their desire to force measures of this kind upon Wales? We have asked for measures in which the Welsh people are interested, but every request of that kind has been refused, no matter how reasonable it may have been. We do not ask for this Bill; we only ask to be exempted from its operation, and surely that is a reasonable demand on our part. I hope that hon. Gentlemen will not allow their hostility to Welsh Nonconformity to carry them beyond due bounds. They have a large majority; let them use it with mercy. Of course, if they choose to refuse every request that is made by the representatives of Wales, I can only warn them that the time is coming when the people of Wales will again vote against them with practical unanimity.

New clause (Extent of Act)—(Mr. Lewis)—brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the clause be read a second time."

SIR R. B. FINLAY

The hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment has spoken with much feeling of the work done by Welsh Nonconformists. I can assure him that he is mistaken in supposing there is on this side of the House any feeling of hostility towards Nonconformity in Wales. But there was one omission which I did note in his speech, and that was that he made no reference to the excellent work which has also been done by the Church of Wales. After all, we are not engaged upon a Disestablishment Bill. I am not going to follow the hon. Gentleman in that portion of his speech, although I shall be prepared when the occasion arises to deal with that question. This Bill cannot be converted into a means of discussing the propriety of keeping up the Established Church in Wales, and everyone will agree that, as long as that Established Church exists, and as long as the clergyman in Wales is paid out of the tithe rent-charge, his grievance is exactly the same as that of his English brother. There is no possible difference. He does the same work, he is paid in the same way, and he has the same unjust burdens inflicted on him. We have decided that those burdens are unjust, and I confess it strikes me that this Amendment trenches most seriously upon the work which this Committee has already done. We have passed the first clause, providing that the owner of tithe rent-charge attached to a benefice shall be relieved of one-half of his rates, and really it would have been better if the attempt to exclude Wales had been made when that clause was under consideration. This is an endeavour to go back upon what the Committee has already decided. With regard to the proposal that no deduction shall be made from the sums payable to local authorities in Wales and Monmouthshire on account of the Estate Duty Grant, by reason of the passing of this Act, I think the hon. Member will see on reflection that he is mistaken in the idea that this money is taken directly from the Welsh ratepayers. As a matter of fact it is taken out of the sum which would otherwise go into the Local Taxation Account, and the burden is distributed over the whole country in a manner which we spent the greater part of yesterday in discussing. It is not a burden which is specially and exclusively inflicted on Wales. If I understand the latter part of the Amendment aright, it is proposed that there should be a modification of the Local Government Act, 1888, and that there should be an addition made to the sum given to each Welsh county. But we have already decided how the money required under this Bill is to be obtained, and I respectfully ask the Committee not to undo the work it did yesterday.

* MR. J. H. ROBERTS

I do not pro-propose to detain the Committee many minutes, for I think the action of the representatives of Wales has been shown with sufficient vigour during these Debates. I should like, however, to say a few words in reply to the speech we have just listened to. I have not a single word to say against the Welsh clergy, but I will point out that, owing to the circumstances in which they are placed in regard to their religious work in Wales, it is absolutely impossible for them to do for Wales what is being done by their fellow clergy in England and elsewhere. What I wish to point out is that, whereas in England the country as a whole will subscribe to the carrying out of the financial proposals of this Bill, the same thing has to be done in Wales with this difference, that in England the feeling may not be so very strong againgst this Bill financially, whereas the feeling in Wales is overwhelmingly against it. There are two or three practical considerations to which I wish to direct the attention of the Committee. First of all, the financial position of Wales is not that of England. I do not say that Wales is a poor country, but it is much poorer than England, and less able to bear the burden which this Bill imposes. I will give the Committee two or three facts with regard to that point. In England income tax is paid at the rate of £6 4s. 2d. per head, whereas in Wales it is only £4 8s. 10d. In 1890, under Schedule D, England paid at the rate of £10 1s. 2d., and Wales at only £4 18s., or less than half. The next practical consideration is that the local authorities in Wales have made good use of the money handed to them through the Local Taxation Account. I do not suppose there is a single set of county councils which has so effectually and usefully expended the money at their command for the education and higher interests of the country than the Welsh County Councils. Further I would remind the Committee that the amount received from Treasury subventions in Wales is not as great as it is in England. In England the rate of 7½d. per head; in Wales in 1890 it was only 5¼d. The third point that I desire to make has reference to what has been done by Nonconformists in Wales. I do not know whether the Committee realises the extent of the sacrifices which the Nonconformists of Wales have made, and are prepared to make, for the higher interests of the country. In Wales the Welsh Presbyterians subscribed during last year nearly £250,000 for various religious purposes, and they are only one out of the four Nonconformist sects in Wales. Is it not strange, therefore, that this miserable pittance provided by the Bill should have to be paid by the general tax-payers of the country towards further increasing the endowment of the clergy of the Church of England? Further, with regard to the Welsh clergy, I believe, if I have not misread their character, that they will not personally welcome the financial proposals of this Bill. It must be remembered that the position of the Nonconformist Church in Wales is an essential factor in the Bill new before us. I wish to reiterate the point mentioned by my hon. friend, that the Established Church in Wales is in a decided minority; that it is the church of the rich, and that it has in the past ranged itself against the national aspirations of the country. That is an historical fact. On the other hand, we have the exceptional position occupied by the Nonconformists. They embrace the large majority of the people of the country, and they have also identified themselves very closely during the last fifty years with every effort to advance the higher interests of the country. Although I know this Bill is bound to pass, it remains the fact that the overwhelming feeling in Wales is against it. If it is unjust, as I believe it is to England, it is far more unjust to Wales. I myself am driven to the conclusion year by year that you will not be able to legislate in harmony with the feeling of the people of Wales until we have some fundamental change in the machinery of Parliament, and I am convinced that such a change must be made before Wales can realise her just aspirations. I beg to support the new clause.

MR. HUMPHREYS-OWEN

I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman opposite to have some consideration for the people of Wales. You are imposing on Wales this Bill against which the Welsh peeple emphatically protest. It is a measure to subsidise the Church of England, and anybody who has the least acquaintance with Welsh social and political life knows perfectly well that one of the great causes of estrangement between Welshmen and Englishmen is the existence of the Established Church in Wales. This proposal may be said to be a somewhat small one and to affect a meritorious class, but small as it is it is none the less irritating. We ourselves complained not long ago against the policy of pin-pricks. This is something more than a pin-prick, because it is opposed to the national sentiment of the country, which has declared itself fully and emphatically against it. By this Bill you are, at the cost of Nonconformists and Churchmen alike, giving relief to the clergy of the Church of England. It is the Church of the rich, and in parish after parish in Wales you will find that the only persons who attend the church are the parson and his family and one or two country gentlemen. The Solicitor-General said that this was not a Disestablishment Debate. But Disestablishment is nevertheless somewhat involved in what we are doing to-night. It is perfectly true that in agricultural districts a considerable portion of the money required will come, not from the country districts, but from the towns; but, for all that, the country districts will still have to pay.

* THE CHAIRMAN

Order, order! The hon. Gentleman is straying from the point.

MR. HUMPHEREYS-OWEN

I was only replying to argument on the other side, but I will not pursue it. Another argument of the Solicitor-General was that the clergy grievance is the same in England and in Wales. We say that by the methods you are adopting you may remedy a clergy grievance, but you are creating a ratepayers' grievance, and therefore you are only shifting the burden. In Wales that grievance will be felt much more strongly than in England, because of the strong hostility between the Church of England and the other denominations. Now, I wish to make an appeal to Churchmen on the other side. Do they think they are really aiding the cause of the Church of England in supporting this Bill?

* THE CHAIRMAN

I must call the hon. Member's attention to the fact that the only question before the Committee is whether Wales should or should not be exempt from this Bill.

MR. HUMPHREYS-OWEN

I was trying, I am afraid imperfectly, to bring forward reasons why Wales should be exempt, and I will conclude my remarks by an appeal to Churchmen, in the interests of the Church of England, to grant the concession asked for by this clause.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

The reasons why this Amendment has been moved have been stated so fully and so well by several Members representing Welsh constituencies that it is not necessary for me, with less perfect knowledge, to go into them at length. Nobody can deny that this is a very reasonable and important Amendment. I am supporting it, politically speaking, very much against my own views, if I have any Party feeling in the matter. That which I should most desire is that this Amendment should be rejected, for I do not know anything that would have a greater effect in eradicating the tares which have been sown in the Liberal wheat in Wales. From that point of view the rejection of the Amendment would be advantageous. It is absolutely impossible that this Government could have proposed a measure which could be more bitterly opposed by the great majority of the people of Wales. The majority of the Welsh people are attached to Nonconformity. That will not be denied for a moment. Hitherto it has been the boast of the Church of England that it relied on its own pecuniary resources. But now for the first time a demand is made on the general taxpayer, who has no particular connection with the Church, to subsidise the clergy of the Established Church. That is an entirely new feature in the relations between the Church and the population, and the Church will no longer be able to say, like the Nonconformist denominations, that it costs nothing to the people. My opinion is that this is an act of injustice generally, but above all it is an act of special injustice to such a population as that of Wales. I have no desire to go into all the considerations which certainly, think, ought to give the Committee pause before passing such a measure as this against the will of the Welsh people. Never was a measure designed by the Imperial Parliament which has more wantonly and more unjustly irritated the sentiments of the Welsh people, and for that reason I shall heartily support the clause.

MR. LONG

The right hon. Gentleman has appealed to us on behalf of Wales not to include Wales in this Bill. I am bound to say I am surprised at the grounds on which the right hon. Gentleman supported the claim made by the Welsh Members. The right hon. Gentleman has referred, as several hon. Members have referred, to the position of the Established Church in Wales, and to the power of the Nonconformists. As my hon. and learned friend said earlier in the evening, nobody here is prepared or desires to contest in the smallest degree the efforts made by Nonconformity in Wales for the progress of Christianity and education. On the contrary we desire heartily to endorse them. That, however is not a question which is germane to the discussion. The right hon. Gentleman, if he desired to support the case of Wales for exemption, ought at least to have shown that the Welsh clerical tithe-owner does not suffer under those disabilities which have been established over and over again during these Debates to exist with regard to clerical tithe-owners in England. Hon. Gentlemen opposite have not attempted to show that there is any other ratepayer whose liability is the same as the clerical owner of tithe or who pays in the same proportion for local expenses. It is rather late in the day now to contest that. It is perfectly well known that the position of the owner of clerical tithe in Wales is not in any degree different from that of the owner of tithe rent-charge in England. No argument has been advanced against that, and that being the case I submit that no ground whatever has been made out for the acceptance of this clause. The Committee has already decided that a certain amount of rate should be repaid, and that a sum should be found from a particular source, and I submit that to exempt Wales on the ground that Nonconformity is in the majority, or that the Established Church is in a minority, or that sectarial differences of opinion, which I hope and believe are subsiding, exist is to make an unreasonable proposition which I hope the Committee will reject.

MR. SAMUEL EVANS

The right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has talked about a subject of which he knows very little. ("No, no.") I do not suppose for a moment that the right hon. Gentleman will contend that he is an authority on ecclesiastical matters in Wales, I have already paid my tribute to the right hon. Gentleman on his conduct of this Bill, but as regards Wales he is not to be regarded as an authority at all. Without going over the ground so excellently traversed by my hon. friends, and so admirably dealt with by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouthshire, I will deal with the matter from a somewhat different standpoint. The case against the Bill does not merely depend upon the injustice of making Wales subscribe out of the taxation of the country for an alien church. If anything, it is still more unjust that the Welsh people should be called upon not merely to contribute to the Church in Wales, but also to contribute very largely to the maintenance of the Church in England. I desire to protest against these public moneys being given to the support of the Church in the Principality, but I still more strongly protest against taking public money out of the pockets of the Welsh taxpayers to support the Church in England. Now, the case lies in a nutshell. The parochial incumbents in Wales do not receive a very large amount of tithe. I believe it will be admitted that, on the whole, the Welsh clergyman has a smaller living on the average than the English clergyman. The whole amount of the tithe rent-charge in the twelve counties of the Principality is £237,000. Therefore, the sum given under this Bill, proportionately speaking, to the Welsh clergymen is not very large. I think the whole sum amounts to something liks £8,000. Twelve counties in England, however, receive in tithe rent-charge exactly ten times as much as the twelve in the Principality. So far as the individual clergyman is concerned, I do not think that many of us on this side of the House would object to the Welsh clergyman having the money. The individual parson in Wales is not a very unpopular person. He is rendered unpopular by reason of the fact that the Establishment is against him, but individually he is regarded as rather a good fellow. Hon. Members who know Wales best can testify to the fact that if there is a worthless son or scallywag he is sent to the Church, and, as a rule, on that very ground he is a very good fellow individually. Whatever you may say about Welsh clergymen, they are really not half as bad beggars as English clergymen are. They receive less money, and they do not complain. Moreover, the Welsh clergymen have not really asked for the money which you are going to give under this Bill. I am sure the hon. Gentleman the Member for Swansea will not get up and say that there has been anything like the demand for this relief among the Welsh clergy that we have seen exhibited in England. But if the Welsh Church is increasing, as has been stated, why do not its supporters maintain their own clergymen if their clergymen desire a better living? I doubt very much whether the House will see going into the Division Lobby in favour of the Government and against this Amendment a single Member for a constituency in Wales. Those Gentleman dare not vote, if they desire to seek re-election, in favour of this Bill. I contend that a hardship arises not only because this money is taken from the pockets of the Welsh taxpayer for the benefit of the Welsh clergymen who are not asking for it, but that given is given in a much larger measure for the support of the clergy of the Church of England. I therefore hope we shall be perfectly solid in opposing the proposal of the Government.

MR. WILLIAM ABRAHAM (Glamorganshire, Rhondda)

In rising at this hour of the morning my only reason is that I want to enter my protest against any further endowment of the Church of England in Wales. Hon. and right hon. Members have said that Wales has no particular grounds of its own for rejecting this Bill. But allow me to say, Sir, that if there were but one, that one being that it is the Church of England in Wales, and not the Church of Wales in Wales, that is sufficiently differential to base upon the plea that it should not be forced upon the Principality. Some of my Welsh friends have urged the argument that the regrettable neglect by the Church of England of the interest of the Welsh people in Wales is a sufficient reason why this Bill should not be applied to Wales. To this I agree. And no one here cares to deny the facts, the historical facts regarding the neglect of the Church in Wales during this period. That regrettable fact is always kept green in the minds of the Welsh people that read the description given of that time by the hymnologist from Pantycelyn when he said— Pan oedd cymru gynt yn gonweder meion annuwiol farwol hun Heb na phrespitar na Fieirade Nac un Esgob ar ddihun. (Loud laughter.) Hon. Members may laugh, but it is too true all the same. What further proof does this House need of the futility of the Church trying to teach the Welsh people religion in a foreign tongue than the fact that even hon. Members laugh at the very same tongue when now used? However, this is not the point I intended to urge upon the consideration of this House when I rose. I think that it is high time that this Debate was risen to a higher ground. The House, so far, has interested itself with what will be effect of this measure upon the mechanism of the Church; but I want to know what effect it will have upon the Church as a moral power in the land. I have been waiting to hear whether some of my Welsh friends on the other side would have a word to say in defence of the real Church in this matter. I freely admit that the Church in Wales has done some good there, during the last decade especially. And I cannot help thinking that that good will be sorely impeded by the effect of this Bill. I freely admit that I did not think there was so much in this Bill until I heard the important statement made by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Agriculture when opposing the Amendment of the hon. gentleman the senior Member for Merthyr. He then said that if that Amendment was carried it would take away 50 per cent. of the funds available for the use of this Bill. If that be the case, and that 50 per cent. of the money for the relief of the clergy is going to come out of a fund which goes to the relief of the poor, what is to become of the relationship between the clergy—the incumbent, the vicar, and especially the curate—that administer to the poor, and the poor which they administer to? One of the great dignitaries of the Church said only the other day "that the people, and especially the poor among the people, should understand and feel that the Church existed for them." If, then, the clergy were going to curtail their contributions to the poor fund to the tune of between £40,000 and £50,000, would they expect the poor in the land to believe any longer that those clergy had any sympathy with them? If, then, the effect of this Bill will be to kill that good feeling between the clergy in the Church and the poor people which they administer to, what will become of the Church—the real moral power of that Church upon the poor which it professes to exist for? Cannot hon. and right hon. Members see that one of the direct effects of this must be to destroy the influence of the Church as a moral power in the land? I would, therefore, appeal to hon. Members for Wales to support this Amendment for the sake of the Church itself. And I would ask them, as members of the Church and its advocates in Wales, to well consider, before casting their votes in this matter, whether it is the interest of the clergy in the Church or the Church itself, including its poor, they are here to defend.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

I very much regret that the Members of the Government have not thought fit to tackle the arguments which have been advanced by hon. Members for Wales in favour of this motion. The Solicitor-General objected to the Amendment on purely technical grounds, but surely this matter is far too important to be put aside by the raising of mere technicalities. It is a matter of justice to the whole of the people of the Principality, and a mere technical argument is not a sufficient answer. The President of the Board of Agriculture said that the mere fact that a vast majority of the Welsh people were opposed to the Establishment altogether was a perfectly irrelevant argument. But surely he cannot say that. We pay annually something like £300,000 to the Church out of our national endowment, and the Government come down, in spite of our protest, and say, "We ask you people in Wales to add to that endowment by £8,000 a year." That is a very unfair thing to do. They have excluded Ireland and they have excluded Scotland front the operation of the Bill, but every argument that can be advanced for excluding Ireland and Scotland can also be advanced for excluding Wales. This arrangement is repudiated by the vast majority of the Welsh people. A Welsh nobleman has written a letter within the last few days in which he says that, though a supporter of the Government, he has subscribed quite enough already to the Church of England in Wales, and will not subscribe a single penny piece more towards maintaining a Church whose doctrines are hostile to the Reformation. And yet the people of Wales, four-fifths of whom disbelieve the doctrines of the Church root and branch, are called upon to subscribe, not £50 or £100, but £8,000 a year towards the maintenance of this Church. Surely that is a monstrous proposition, especially in the present state of the Church of England in Wales and outside. I have not heard in the course of this Debate that the main principle laid down by hon. Members for Wales has been challenged, namely, that the vast majority of the people disavow the services of the Church. I submit that that is a very relevant consideration. What is the ground on which this Bill has been introduced? One is that it is for professional services rendered. Who, in Wales, has called for those services? Who wants them? The people say, "We don't want the services." Why should they be called upon to pay for them? How many people came before the Commission to represent the people of Wales? The only layman was the hon. Member for Tunbridge, but he is not a Welsh member. The hon. Member comes from Denbighshire. He toils night and day for the promotion of the interests of our National Church—of the National Church of the Welsh people, so we are told. And yet he has not been able to find a single seat in Wales to return him as a member! (Interruption.) Yes, the hon. Member has not tried, because he knows perfectly well he has not the remotest chance. If his views commended themselves to the people of Denbighshire, where he resides, surely with his ability he would have found a seat in that particular county. And who is the other witness who came before this Commission? He is a Welsh rector. What is his case? He is paid net tithe amounting to £279 2s. 2d. The whole population of his parish is about 450. Four-fifths of the population attend the Calvinistic Methodist place of worship, and very few of the rest ever attend the parish church. Here is a gentleman who is receiving £279 for his services for the whole of the parish, whilst the minister of the real parish church—the minister who attends to four-fifths of the population—is not paid one-half that this gentleman is paid. And yet the rector comes and says, "It is true I do not minister to this population, it is true that I only do one-fifth of the work for which I am paid, but I ask that you should give me a rise in my salary." It is exactly as if the Local Government Board were to impose a medical officer upon a particular district, and, in spite of the fact that the district did not want his services, did not believe in him, and preferred to pay their own doctor, were obliged to appoint him, and give him an increase of salary. Something has been said about hon. Members for Wales who sit on the opposite side. A short time the Leader of the Conservative party in Wales was in the House, but not a word has he said in support of this proposal. I should like to know what he has to say about this Amendment. I see the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmmgham also present. There was a time when he raised his powerful voice in favour of the Welsh people, and when he insisted upon having their grievances redressed in regard to the Church: and yet he is now a member of a Government which seeks to aggravate that grievance, and to impose an additional tax of £8,000 in favour of the Church which he himself once regarded as a source of one of the greatest grievances of the Welsh people. I think we can appeal to him at any rate to put in one word in favour of the people of Wales in this matter. I venture to appeal to the Government, having exempted Ireland from the provisions of the Bill, and having exempted Scotland, to exempt Wales. We are asking nothing which is unfair. The Government have a perfectly loyal and law-abiding

population to deal with, but instead of redressing their grievances they aggravate and intensify them by proposals of this character.

MR. SAMUEL EVANS

May I correct one figure? I gave the sum of £8,000 as being the amount of the tax made upon Wales in regard to this Bill. That figure, I believe, is more accurately stated at something under £6,000.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 120; Noes, 233. (Division List, No. 263.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Goddard, Daniel Frod Oldroyd, Mark
Asher, Alexander Gurdon, Sir William Brampton O'Malley, William
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)
Barlow, John Emmott Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale- Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Hedderwick, Thonms Chas.H. Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs, S W
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. Holland, Wm. H. (York, W. R.) Power, Patrick Joseph
Billson, Alfred Horniman, Frederick John Price, Robert John
Birrell, Augustine Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Provand, Andrew Dryburgh
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Joicey, Sir James Randell, David
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Jones, David Brymnor (Swans'a Reckett, Harold James
Burns, John Jones, William (Carnarvonsh. Rickett, J. Compton
Caldwell, James Kearley, Hudson E. Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Kilbride, Denis Robson, William Snowdon
Causton, Richard Knight Labouchere, Henry Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Cawley, Frederick Lambert, George Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Channing, Francis Allston Langley, Batty Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford)
Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.) Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Colville, John Leng, Sir John Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Condon, Thomas Joseph Leuty, Thomas Richmond Souttar, Robinson
Crilly, Daniel Lewis, John Herbert Spicer, Albert
Crombie, John William Lloyd-George, David Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.
Curran, Thomas (Sligo,S.) Logan, John William Steadman, William Charles
Dalziel, James Henry Lough, Thomas Stevenson, Francis S.
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Macaleese, Daniel Stuart, James (Shoreditch)
Davitt, Michael MacDonnell, Dr M A (Queen's C) Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Dewar, Arthur M'Crae, George Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.
Dillon, John M'Dermott, Patrick Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr
Donelan, Captain A. M'Ewan, William Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.
Doogan, P. C. M'Ghee, Richard Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) M'Kenna, Reginald Wedderburn, Sir William
Duckworth, James M'Leod, John Whiteley, George(Stockport)
Dunn, Sir William Maddison, Fred. Williams, John Carvell(Notts)
Edwards, Owen Morgan Maden, John Henry Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull)
Ellis, John Edward Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen) Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Evans, Sir F. H.(S'thampton) Morgan, W. P.(Merthyr) Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Hudd'rsf'd
Evershed, Sydney Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Woods, Samuel.
Fenwick, Charles Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) Yoxall, James Henry
Ferguson, R. C. M. (Leith) Nussey, Thomas Willans TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Flynn, James Christopher O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.) Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur
Foster,Sir Walter(Derby Co.) O'Connor, T. P.(Liverpool)
NOES.
Allhusen, Augustus Henry E. Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds Bill, Charles
Allsopp, Hon. George Banbury, Frederick George Blundell, Colonel Henry
Anson, Sir William Reynell Barnes, Frederic Gorell Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-
Arnold, Alfred Bartley, George C. T. Bousfield, William Robert
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Barton, Dunbar Plunket Brassey, Albert
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H.(Bristol Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Beckett, Ernest William Brookfield, A. Montagu
Baillie, JamesE. B.(Inverness) Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Bullard, Sir Harry
Baird, John George Alexander Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Burdett-Coutt, W.
Balcarres, Lord Beresford, Lord Charles Butcher, John George
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Carlile, William Walter
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George Nicol, Donald Ninian
Cavendish, V. C.W.(Derbysh.) Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. Wm. Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Hanson, Sir Reginald O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Cecil Evelyn (Hertford, East) Hardy, Laurence Pender, Sir James
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Hare, Thomas Leigh Percy, Earl
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm. Henderson, Alexander Pierpoint, Robert
Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton)
Charrington, Spencer Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol) Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Chelsea, Viscount Hobhouse, Henry Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A.E. Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow) Purvis, Robert
Coddington Sir William Hornby, Sir William Henry Rankin, Sir James
Coghill, Douglas Harry Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Rentoul, James Alexander
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Houston, R. P. Richards, Henry Charles
Collins, Rt. Hon. Jesse Howell, William Tudor Richardson, Sir T.(Hartlep'l)
Colomb, Sir J. Charles Ready Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W.
Compton, Lord Alwyne Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson
Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Robertson, Herbert(Hackney)
Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Edw. T. D. Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Round, James
Cox, Irwin Edward (Bainbridge Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Royds, Clement Molyneux.
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Jolliffe, Hon. H. George Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) Kemp, George Rutherford, John
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Kenyon, James Ryder, John Herbert Dudley
Curzon, Visconnt Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles
Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh Kimber, Henry Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. E. J.
Dalkeith, Earl of Lafone, Alfred Seton-Karr, Henry
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Laurie, Lieut.-General Sharpe, William Edward T.
Davies, Sir H. D.(Chatham) Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Sidebottom, T. Harrop (Stalybr
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry) Simeon, Sir Barrington
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm.Edw.H. Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) Smith, James P. (Lanarks.)
Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)
Doughty, George Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset Spencer, Ernest
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Llewelyn, Sir DillWyn-(Swan. Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk
Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Doxford, William Theodore Long, Col. Charles W (Evesham Stephens, Henry Charles
Drucker, A. Long, Rt.Hn Walter (L'pool.) Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Stock, James Henry
Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart Lorne, Marquess of Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Elliot, Hon. H. Ralph Douglas Lowe, Francis William Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Fardell, Sir T. George Lowles, John Sutherland, Sir Thomas
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Loyd, Archie Kirkman Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Finch, George H. Lucas-Shadwell, William Thornton, Percy M.
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Macartney, W. G. Ellison Tollemache, Henry James
Firbank, Joseph Thomas Macdona John Cumming Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Fisher, William Hayes MacIver, David (Liverpool) Valentia, Viscount
Fison, Frederick William M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard
Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) Malcolm, Ian Wanklyn, James Leslie
Foster, Barry S. (Suffolk) Martin, Richard Biddulph Ward, Hn. Robert A. (Crewe)
Galloway, William Johnson Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E.(Kent)
Gedge, Sydney Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Gibbons, J. Lloyd Milbank, Sir Powlett C. John Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (CityofLnd.) Mildmay, Francis Bingham Wharton, Rt. Hon. John L.
Gilliat, John Saunders Milton, Viscount Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Milward, Colonel Victor Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm
Goldsworthy, Major-General Montagu, Hn. J.Scott (Hants.) Willox, Sir John Archibald
Gordon, Hon. John Edward Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (S. G'rge's More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart
Goschen, George J.(Sussex) Morgan, Hn. Fred (Monm'thsh. Wylie, Alexander
Goulding, Edward Alfred Morrell, George Herbert Wyndham, George
Graham, Henry Robert Morrison, Walter Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Green,WalfordD.(W'dnesbury Mount, William George Young, Commander (Berks, E.
Greene, W. R.-(Cambs.) Muntz, Philip A.
Greville, Hon. Ronald Murray, Rt Hn A Graham(Bute
Gull, Sir Cameron Murray, Charles J.(Coventry) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Halsey, Thomas Frederick Nicholson, William Graham
MR. DALZIEL

I rise to move a motion on behalf of the officials of the House, most of whom have now been on duty fourteen hours. It was never intended that we should sit all night. That is not the usual interpretation of the suspension of the twelve o'clock rule; it was never intended to sit longer than a reasonable time, and have we not on the present occasion sat long enough? There are still several important clauses to be dealt with, and I beg to move that progress be reported and the Debate be adjourned.

Motion made and Question proposed— That the Chairman do report progress; and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Dalziel.)

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

I do not propose to enter into any recriminatory matter. I would merely point out that although it is perfectly true that the inconvenience caused to all concerned is considerable, some hon. Members on the Opposition side insist upon obstructing the business, and there is no help but to sit on. This afternoon since four o'clock we have discussed a definition clause, a clause dealing with the title of the Bill, and a clause saying when it is to come into operation, and we have been discussing those three clauses ten hours.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

I regret the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House will not accede so reasonable a request. When we move Amendments he will not discuss them. As for the amount of work we have done to-night, we have passed three clauses, and in no single case in the time of the last Liberal Government were so many clauses passed at one sitting owing to the tactics of the Opposition. I ask the right hon. Gentleman most earnestly to listen to the appeal of my hon. friend.

SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

I am personally no advocate of long sittings nor of delaying proceedings, and I am bound to say I do not think my hon. friend is unreasonable in asking the Government whether they intend to make the House sit until the rest of the Bill is dealt with. If that is their intention I protest against it. This is not an ordinary Bill; it is merely another added to the many instances I have known of dealing with a Bill before this House in any way but the straightforward way. All the ingenious devices which have been invented do not further the business at all. This Bill is known to be a most objectionable Bill to a large section of the House and country. There is tremendous feeling against it on this side of the House and on the Government side, and Conservative candidates who have stood in the country have repudiated it. I am bound to say I do not think it is respectful to the House for the First Lord of the Treasury to set himself against every Amendment for the purpose of avoiding a discussion on the Report stage, though no doubt it is a clever proceeding. Surely now he is not going to keep us here indefinitely? If he is, all we can do is to divide the House upon this motion, as a protest against such tactics.

MR. FLYNN (Cork, N.)

I do think it is an unreasonable thing to ask Members to sacrifice their time and jeopardise their health in order that a measure not mentioned in the Queen's Speech should be forced through this House. The Government are acting most unreasonably in making these demands on the Committee and on private Members. Even if we are a minority, we are entitled to consideration. The Welsh Members have devoted to this matter attention and consideration which must have elicited admiration from all sides, while the Irish and Scotch Members have rendered what assistance they could in the Division Lobby. But to say that we shall be doing walking marches all night is an abuse of the power of a strong Government. I hope the Government will acknowledge the reasonableness of the proposal, and, instead of continuing this discussion at this hour, recognise that the Independent Members are entitled to some fair treatment, and ought not to be reduced to a condition of slavery, or at any rate called upon to bear the burdens of the Church Party by sacrificing their time, energy, and health.

MR. LAMBERT

I would venture to appeal to the right hon. Gentleman on behalf of the President of the Board of Agriculture. He has now gone out, doubtless, to seek a little well-deserved refreshment.

MR. BOUSFIELD (Hackney, N.)

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put;" but the Chairman withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.

MR. LAMBERT

He has been sitting in close attendance on this Bill, and I notice he is requested to attend at 11.45 this morning for the purpose of guiding his Lands Improvement Bill through the Standing Committee on Law. We have a great respect for the President of the Board of Agriculture, who is so interested in his Department, and we would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to spare him this unnecessary sitting up in the small hours of the morning.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 107; Noes, 216. (Division List, No. 264.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Hedderwick, Thomas Chas. H. Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs. S W
Asher, Alexander Holland, W. H. (York, W.R.) Power, Patrick Joseph
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Horniman, Frederick John Price, Robert John
Barlow, John Emmott Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Provand, Andrew Dryburgh
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Joicey, Sir James Randell, David
Billson, Alfred Jones, D. Brymnor (Swansea) Reckitt, Harold James
Birrell, Augustine Jones, Wm.(Carnarvonshire) Rickett, J. Compton
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Kilbride, Denis Roberts, John H.(Denbighs)
Burns, John Labouchere, Henry Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Caldwell, James Lambert, George Scott, Chas. Prestwich(Leigh)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Langley, Batty Shaw, Charles Edw.(Stafford)
Channing, Francis Allston Leese, Sir J. F.(Accrington) Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.) Leng, Sir John Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarshi'e
Colville, John Leuty, Thomas Richmond Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Condon, Thomas Joseph Lewis, John Herbert Souttar, Robinson
Crilly, Daniel Lloyd-George, David Spicer, Albert
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Logan, John William Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.
Curran, Thomas(Sligo,S.) Lough, Thomas Steadman, William Charles
Dalziel, James Henry Macaleese, Daniel Stevenson, Francis S.
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan Mac Donnell, Dr M A (Queen'sC. Stuart, James (Shoreditch)
Davitt, Michael M'Crae, George Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Donelan, Captain A. M'Dermott, Patrick Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Doogan, P. C. M'Ewan, William Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark) M'Ghee, Richard Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.
Duckworth, James M'Kenna, Reginald Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Dunn, Sir William M'Leod, John Wedderburn, Sir William
Edwards, Owen Morgan Maddison, Fred. Whiteley, George (Stockport)
Ellis, John Edward Maden, John Henry Williams, John Carvell (Notts.
Evans, Samuel T.(Glamotgan) Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull)
Evershed, Sydney Morgan, W. P. (Merthyr) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Fenwick, Charles Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Woodhouse SirJ. T (Huddersf'd
Ferguson, R.C. Munro(Leith) Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport Woods, Samuel
Flynn, James Christopher Nussey, Thomas Willans Yoxall, James Henry
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.) O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.
Goddard, Daniel Ford Oldroyd, Mark TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.) Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur.
Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale- Pickersgill, Edward Hare
NOES.
Allhusen, Augustus Hen. Eden Brassey, Albert Curzon, Viscount
Allsopp, Hon. George Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Dalrymple, Sir Charles
Anson, Sir William Reynell Brookfield, A. Montagu Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Bullard, Sir Harry Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.
Arnold, Alfred Burdett-Coutts, W. Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Carlile, William Walter Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) Doughty, George
Baird, John G. Alexander Cayzer, Sir Charles William Doughlas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Balcarres, Lord Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S.
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r. Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Doxford, William Theodore
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm. Drucker, A.
Banbury, Frederick George Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc. Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.
Barnes, Frederic Gorell Charrington, Spencer Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart
Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. S.-(Hunts) Chelsea, Viscount Elliott, Hon. A. Ralph D.
Bartley, George C. T. Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Fardell, Sir T. George
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Coddington, Sir William Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol Cohen, Benjamin Louis Finch, George H.
Beckett, Ernest William Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Colomb, SirJohn Charles Ready Firbank, Joseph Thomas
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Compton, Lord Alwyne Fisher, William Hayes
Beresford, Lord Charles Cornwallis, F. Stanley W. Fison, Frederick William
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D. Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)
Blundell, Colonel Henry Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge
Bonsor, Henry Cosmo orme Galloway, William Johnson
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton Gedge, Sydney
Bousfield, William Robert Cubitt, Hon. Henry Gibbons, J. Lloyd
Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham Ritchie, Rt. Hn. (Chas. Thomson
Gilliat, John Saunders Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (L'pool) Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Round, James
Goldsworthy, Major-General Lorne, Marquess of Royds, Clement(Molyneux)
Gordon, Hon. John Edward Lowe, Francis William Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Gosehen, R Hn. G. J. (St George's Lowles, John Rutherford, John
Gosehen, George J.(Sussex) Loyd, Archie Kirkman Ryder, John Herbert Dudley
Goulding, Edward Alfred Lucas-Shadwell, William Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles
Graham, Henry Robert Macartney, W.G. Ellison Saunderson, Rt Hon Col Edw. J.
Gray, Ernest(West Ham) Macdona, John Cumming Seton-Karr, Henry
Green, W. D.(Wednesbnry) Maclver, David (Liverpool) Simeon, Sir Barrington
Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) M'Iver, Sir L. (Edinbugh W.) Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Greville, Hon. Ronald Malcolm, Ian Smith, James P.(Lanarks.)
Gull, Sir Cameron Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F. Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. Spencer, Ernest
Halsey, Thomas Frederick Milbank, Sir Powlett Charles J. Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk
Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George Mildmay, Francis Bingham Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. W. Milner, Sir Frederick George Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M.
Hanson, Sir Reginald Milton, Viscount Stock, James Henry
Hardy, Laurence Milward, Colonel Victor Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Hare, Thomas Leigh Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants. Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Henderson, Alexander Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol) More, Robt. Fasper (Shropshire Thornton, Percy M.
Hobhouse, Henry Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh Tollemache, Henry James
Holland, Hon. Lionel R. (Bow) Morrell, George Herbert Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Hornby, Sir William Henry Morrison, Walter Valentia, Viscount
Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford Wanklyn, James Leslie
Houston, R. P. Mount, William George Ward, Hon. R. A.(Crewe)
Howell, William Tudor Muntz, Philip A. Warde, Lieut.-Col.C.E.(Kent)
Hozier, Hon. James H. Cecil Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Murray, C.J.(Coventry) Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath Wharton, Rt. Hon. Jno. Lloyd
Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Nicholson, William Graham Williams, Colonel R.(Dorset)
Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Nicol, Donald Ninian Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm
Jolliffe, Hon. H. George Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford Willox, Sir John Archibald
Kemp, George O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Kenyon, James Pender, Sir James Wilson J. W. (Worcestersh., N.)
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William Pierpoint, Robert Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Kimber, Henry Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton Wylie, Alexander
Lafone, Alfred Platt-Higgins, Frederick Wyndham, George
Laurie, Lieut-General Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Lawson, John Grant(Yorks.) Purvis, Robert Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry Rankin, Sir James Young, Commander (Berks,E.)
Lees, Sir Elliot(Birkenhead) Rentoul, James Alexander
Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Richards, Henry Charles TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset) Richardson, Sir Thos. (Hartlep'l
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W.
MR. HUMPHREYS-OWEN

The Amendment I have to move is one which will commend itself to all Members. It is a very well recognised view that, in order to have purity in dealing with public money, it is important that you should identify the persons to whom the money should go. In this instance you are providing considerable sums of money from public funds for the relief of certain clergymen in different counties and county boroughs in England Wales. It is obvious that it is desirable that the expenditure of these sums of money, coming as they do entirely out of the funds at the disposal of the councils, should be scrutinised with the same minuteness as is applied by these bodies to expenditure of their ordinary funds. I have here the accounts of the county council of my own county, and to give a specimen of the careful way in which the ratepayers are informed, not only of the amounts spent, but to whom they are given, I will give one or two items. There is an allowance of £1 15s. to a police-constable, 15s. to a lady, and £1 3s. 4d. to a P.C. Lewis, and so on. It is equally desirable that the clergy—who are public officers, now to receive distinct grants out of the public funds—should be shown in the same way in the accounts of the county councils from whom they receive the grants. I therefore move the Amendment.

New clause:— The Commissioners of Inland Revenue shall, not more than eight days after they have, under the provisions of this Act, paid any moneys in respect of any rate on tithe rent-charge, make out and forward to the council of the county borough or administrative county wherein the hereditaments out of which that tithe rent-charge arises are situate, a certificate stating the amount of the payment and the name of the benefice to which the tithe rent-charge is attached."—(Mr. Humphreys-Owen.)

Brought up and read the first time.

Motion made and Question proposed, "That the clause be read a second time."

MR. LONG

The suggestion made in the proposed new clause is a very admirable one, but it is quite unnecessary; because, as a matter of fact, this information is conveyed at the present times and a Return as far as possible made to Parliament in each case for the purposes of those interested. The county councils will obtain information in precisely the same way as they now obtain information in regard to other payments. It would be extremely inconvenient and entirely contrary to practice to cast a statutory obligation upon a Government Department to make these Returns. The information must be provided, and will be provided. The Return will be made in the ordinary course of things, and when moved for by an ordinary Member it would be granted as an unopposed Return. I must therefore ask the Committee to reject this clause.

MR. BRYNMOR JONES (Swansea District)

The right hon. Gentleman has altogether failed to see the real reason why this additional check is required. He says the matter is without precedent, but I am inclined to think that the whole of the first clause of this Bill, so far as the machinery is concerned, is without precedent, when one comes to consider how the matter will work out in practice from the point of view of the local government authorities. The Bill says: The remaining half shall, on demand being made by the collector of rates on the Surveyor of Taxes for the district, be paid by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue out of the sums payable by them to the Local Taxation Account. The reason my hon. friend desires that there should be within eight days a communication from the Commissioners of Inland Revenue to the County Council, is to see that there is nothing irregular, either on the part of the tithe-owner, the collector of rates, or the Surveyor of Taxes. It is useless to tell us that if we desire to see that the Act is applied with absolute accuracy we may correct the matter about twelve months after the transaction by asking for a Return in Parliament, which everybody knows we cannot get unless the Government of the day happen to consent to it. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the mover of this clause is actuated purely and solely by the desire to get the measure into working shape, and to prevent any irregularities whatsoever.

MR. SAMUEL EVANS

Under this Bill the Commissioners of Inland Revenue are to be called upon to pay, not to the county to which it belongs, or ought to belong, but to somebody else, a large sum Of money. Is it unfair to ask that the county council should be informed of what has become of this money? There could not be a more reasonable or necessary Amendment than this proposed new clause. The right hon. Gentleman said there is no precedent for such a course. That cannot be so. Constantly, in Irish and in English Acts of Parliament, you have an obligation put upon public bodies to make Returns to Parliament, and Returns are constantly made. We are told that the information will be laid upon the Table of the House in the shape of Returns. But it is important, in order to have a check upon these various claims which will be made for the remission of half the rates, to have not merely the total amount given, but the individual items. I do not know whether the local authorities are bound to give the particulars of the various benefices to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue: we have not been told that they must. All the rating authorities have to do is to certify what is the amount they require to make up the half of the rates they have remitted, and the Commissioners are bound to pay that sum. If they refused, there would be a remedy against them in the Courts of Law by mandamus or otherwise. What check have they that the half of the rates which are asked for are rates which have to be remitted? But if you, by this clause, compel them to make this Return to the county councils, the Commissioners of Inland Revenue will be entitled to ask the various rating authorities for the particulars showing how the sum asked for is made up. Supposing this were money belonging to an individual instead of to a county council, can anybody say, with any fairness at all, that it is not right and proper that the individual who otherwise would have received the money should have a full and detailed account of the money which has been paid to somebody else on his behalf? That is the sole object of the clause. If this is a reasonable and proper Amendment, as the right hon. Gentleman has admitted it is, it ought to be inserted in the Bill. The object of the Government in refusing these Amendments is to avoid the Report stage, when we could again bring forward our arguments. That is the object of the Report stage. The Government, if they are logical, will move that hereafter there shall be no Report stage at all. That is a much better and simpler way, and if they did that they would be forging a weapon which we should be able to use against them at no very distant date.

MR. LAMBERT

I had thought myself of moving an Amendment, for the county councils are really anxious that there shall not be more money deducted from their local funds than is absolutely necessary, and they want a thoroughly efficient check over the money taken out of the Local Taxation Account. May I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman the desirability of putting into the Bill some machinery whereby a greater check can be placed upon the expenditure of this money. This is a matter of great importance to the county council, and the suggestion I have made is one which has the approval of the officials of the Devon County Council.

MR. H. S. SAMUEL (Tower Hamlets, Limehouse)

I think the Amendment of my hon. friend is a very important one, which everyone must see is absolutely necessary if the county council is to have any check upon the expenditure of the money. This money belongs to the county council in the first place, and we propose to intercept money which should go into the county fund, and the proposal is that every collector of taxes should make a Return to the county council to show exactly the amount of money that is charged to that particular county. I may say that that is what is done at the present time in reference to main roads. I can conceive of a large amount of money being charged if the collectors were so inclined, for they could send anything up to the Inland Revenue Commissions unless the county council had some check over them. I think this is a very important Amendment, and I hope my hon. friend will press it to a Division.

MR. LOGAN

No matter what protests we may make, it seems to me that the Committee stage is practically passed, for the Government have decided to refuse all Amendments, no matter how important they are. The right hon. Gentleman admits that this is a very reasonable Amendment.

MR. LONG

What I said was, that what the hon. Member desired was reasonable, but his Amendment was perfectly unnecessary.

MR. LOGAN

The right hon. Gentleman admits that the object at which my hon. friend is aiming is perfectly reasonable, therefore it seems to me that he ought to accept this Amendment. We want to see that these accounts are properly kept, and, above all, I desire that the Inland Revenue Commissioners and the rating authorities should be perfectly certain that the moneys should be collected from the proper quarter, and for this reason I shall support the Amendment. I also desire that the ratepayers in the locality should know the names of these gentlemen who, in future, will receive outdoor relief at our expense, and I wish to see their names published, so that we shall know whom we have got to keep out of our hard earnings.

MR. DALZIEL

I rise to ask the right hon. Gentleman what he means when he says that this new clause is unnecessary, for in his first speech he told us the suggestion was an admirable one. He says that this will be carried out by the Bill as it stands, but is the right hon. Gentleman accurate when he says that? My hon. friend asks that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue shall within eight days send a Return of where the money has been expended. That certainly will not be carried out by the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman. As you are taking money from the ratepayers in certain areas, surely it is a small request to ask that you should give them an account within a reasonable time as to how the money has been spent. I think the Amendment is quite reasonable, but reasonableness has no attraction so far as this Committee is concerned.

MR. STUART (Shoreditch, Hoxton)

What I desire to see is that some sound financial position should be adopted. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to speak on behalf of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, but I think he ought to assure us that at least attention has been properly given by the Government to this question.

MR. LONG

I cannot possibly undertake to say that this can be done, because it would be clearly against the best possible information and advice we have received with regard to the operation of this Act.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

The position now taken up by the right hon. Gentleman is that he will give us information and let us know something about what happens in good time, but our point is will he give information with regard to each individual case? In the Education Department we get Returns with regard to every school board in the country, and we get full information with regard to the different grants. But in regard to Voluntary schools an attempt was made to secure a Return in regard to voluntary subscriptions, but we have not been able to get any information. We have made an appeal upon this question to the Vice-President of the Council, but he refers us to somebody else, and nobody seems prepared to carry out the promise which was given us to supply this information in regard to the Voluntary schools. We know from experience the value of these indefinite vague undertakings. If the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Agriculture gave us his word we know what it would mean, but he declines to give it. I remember what happened when one of the great measures of this Government dealing with prison made goods was passed by this House. The President of the Board of Trade then undertook that he would give us a Return as to the operation of the Bill, and we asked for a statutory obligation to that effect. The President of the Board of Trade promised to give us that Return, but it has never been published up to this day. If a statutory obligation had been inserted in that Bill, we should have had that Return, and the Department dare not have refused it; but we have been relying upon these vague voluntary promises which are never carried out. I do not say that the right hon. Gentleman did not intend to carry out his promise, but it has not been done.

THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. RITCHIE,) Croydon

Will the hon. Gentleman quote the promise?

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

I cannot turn up the passage in Hansard just at the moment, but I will ask the right hon. Gentleman if he denies that he promised that such a Return would be made?

MR. RITCHIE

What Return?

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

It was a Return as to the goods manufactured in foreign prisons. In the Bill we are now considering, the county council has no opportunity of scrutinising and overhauling these proceeding. I would point out to the Committee that merely providing for accounts from the surveyor of taxes is not a sufficient guarantee that the thing will be done thoroughly, for sometimes you get very competent officials and sometimes you do not. Occasionally you get gentlemen who are strongly in sympathy with the local clergymen. In some areas you have got forty or fifty parishes, and how is the surveyor of taxes going to examine the separate accounts kept in all those parishes, for it is no business of the collectors to audit the accounts, for his duty is simply to get as much money as he can out of the Government. Therefore, the surveyor of taxes has no access to the assessment account except by making a visit to each of these forty or fifty parishes, which is practically impossible. The result will be that under the proposal of the Government these duties will be perfunctorily performed, and these demand notes presented by the local collector of taxes will be accepted without any scrutiny at all, because the account will be paid by someone in London. This is the way in which the finances of the country are to be conducted, and I should like to know if the right hon. Gentleman can produce a single precedent for this proposal. Somebody should be appointed to inquire into the matter. When the Agricultural Rating Bill was before the House we raised the point then. We said we had really no check. But we were told we had the surveyor of taxes. I make no complaint against the surveyor of taxes, but you are asking him to do a thing for which he has no machinery or officers on which to rely. If the clause of my hon. friend were adopted, it would be a totally different thing. The county councils have representatives in every parish, and they could make inquiries. Supposing a Return came down, in eight days the Members of the Finance Committee coming from every part of the country would go through the accounts, and carefully scrutinise the demand. These safeguards are not desired by the Govern-

ment. All they require is that their friends should pillage all they can out of the taxation of the country.

Mr. LONG

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be, now put."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 202; Noes, 97. (Division List, No. 265.)

AYES.
Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden Doughty, George. Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry
Anson, Sir William Reynell Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie
Arnold, Alfred Doxford, William Theodore Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset)
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Drucker, A. Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Long, Col. Charles W. (Eveshan
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Long, Rt Hn. Walter (Liverpool
Baird, J. George Alexander Finch, George H. Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller
Barres, Lord Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lorne, Marquess of
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r Firbank, Joseph Thomas Lowe, Francis William
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds) Fisher, William Hayes Lowles, John
Banbury, Frederick George Fison, Frederick William Lucas-Shadwell, William
Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. S.-(Hunts.) Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) Macartney, W. G. Ellison
Bartley, George C.T. Galloway, William Johnson Macdona, John Cumming
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Gedge, Sydney MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir. M. H. (Br'st'l) Gibbons, J. Lloyd M'lver, Sir L. (Edinburgh,W.)
Beckett, Ernest William Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (C. of Lond.) Malcolm, Ian
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Godson, Sir Augustus Fred. Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Goldsworthy, Major-General Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Beresford, Lord Charles Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (St. Geo,'s Milbank, Sir Powlett Charles J.
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Goschen, George J.(Sussex) Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Blundell, Colonel Henry Goulding, Edward Alfred Milner, Sir Frederick George
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Graham, Henry Robert Milton, Viscount
Bousfield, William Robert Gray, Ernest(West Ham) Milward, Colonel Victor
Brassey, Albert Green, Walford D.(Wedn'sbury Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs). More, Robt. Jasper (Shropsh.)
Brookfield, A. Montagu Greville, Hon. Ronald Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)
Bullard, Sir Harry Gull, Sir Cameron Morrell, George Herbert
Burdett-Coutts, W. Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Morrison, Walter
Carlile, William Walter Halsey, Thomas Frederick Morton, Arthur HA (Deptford)
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.) Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo. Mount, William George
Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbysh.) Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robt. Wm. Muntz, Philip A.
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Hanson, Sir Reginald Murray, Rt Hn. A. Grahm. (Bute
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Hardy, Laurence Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Hare, Thomas Leigh Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm Henderson, Alexander Nicholson, William Graham
Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r) Hill, Sir Edward Stock (Bristol) Nicol, Donald Ninian
Charrington, Spencer Hobhouse, Henry Northcote, Hon. Sir H. S.
Chelsea, Viscount Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow) O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E. Hornby, Sir William Henry Pender, Sir James
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Pierpoint, Robert
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Howell, William Tudor Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton)
Colomb, Sir John C. Ready Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Compton, Lord Alwyne Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Cornwallis, F. Stanley W. Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Purvis, Robert
Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D. Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Rankin, Sir James.
Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Rentoul, James Alexander
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Jolliffe, Hon. H. George Richards, Henry Charles
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Kemp, George Richardson, Sir Thos. (Hartlep'l
Curzon, Viscount Kenyon, James Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W.
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham) Kimber, Henry Robertson, Herbert(Hackney)
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Lafone, Alfred Round, James
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Laurie, Lieut.-General Royds, Clement Molynenx
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Rutherford, John Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier Willox, Sir John Archibald
Ryder, John Herbert Dudley Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Sandys, Lieut.-Col. T. Myles Thornton, Percy M. Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh., N.
Seton-Karr, Henry Tollemache, Henry James Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Simeon, Sir Barrington Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray Wylie, Alexander
Skewes-Cox, Thomas Valentia, Viscount Wyndham, George
Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.) Wanklyn, James Leslie Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) Ward, Hon. Robert A.(Crewe) Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Spencer, Ernest Warde, Lieut.-Col. C.E.(Kent Young, Commander(Berks.E.)
Stanley, Hon. Arthr. (Ormskirk Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Stock, James Henry Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm
NOES.
Abraham, W. (Rhondda) Horniman, Frederick John Power, Patrick Joseph
Asher, Alexander Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Price, Robert John
Austin, M. (Limerick, W) Joicey, Sir James Provand, Andrew Dryburgh
Barlow, John Emmott Jones, D. Brymnor (Swansea) Randell, David
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) Reckitt, Harold James
Billson, Alfred Kilbride, Denis Rickett, J. Compton
Birrell, Augustine Labouchere, Henry Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Lambert, George Samuel, J.(Stockton on Tees)
Burns, John Langley, Batty Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Caldwell, James Lawson-Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington) Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Channing, Francis Allston Leuty, Thomas Richmond Sinclair, Capt, John (Forfarshire
Clark, Dr. G. B.(Caithness) Lewis, John Herbert Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Colville, John Lloyd-George, David Souttar, Robinson
Condon, Thomas Joseph Logan, John William Spicer, Albert
Crilly, Daniel Macaleese, Daniel Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.
Curran, Thomas(Sligo, S.) MacDonnell, Dr M A (Queen'sC) Steadman, William Charles
Dalziel, James Henry M'Crae, George Stevenson, Francis S.
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan M'Dermott, Patrick Stuart, James (Shoreditch)
Davitt, Michael M'Ewan, William Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Donelan, Captain A. Ghee, Richard Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)
Doogan, P. C. M'Kenna, Reginald Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr
Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark) M'Leod, John Warner, Thomas CourtenayT.
Duckworth, James Maddison, Fred. Wedderburn, Sir William
Edwards, Owen Morgan Maden, John Henry Whiteley, George (Stockport)
Ellis, John Edward Morgan, W. P. (Merthyr) Williams, John Carvell (Notts)
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Wilson, H. J. (York, W.R.)
Fenwick, Charles Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudder'd
Ferguson, R. C. Munro(Leith Nussey, Thomas Willans Yoxall, James Henry
Flynn, James Christopher O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.
Goddard, Daniel Ford Oldroyd, Mark TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.) Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur.
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Hedderwick, Thomas C. H. Pilkington, Sir G. A (Lancs, S W)

Question put accordingly, "That the clause be read a second time."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 97; Noes, 202. (Division List, No. 266.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale-
Asher, Alexander Dalziel, James Henry Hedderwick, Thomas C. H.
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardig'n) Horniman, Frederick John
Barlow, John Emmott Davitt, Michael Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Donelan, Captain A. Joicey, Sir James
Billson, Alfred Doogan, P. C. Jones, David Brynmor (Swans.)
Birrell, Augustine Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark) Jones, William (Carn'rvonshire
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Duckworth, James Kilbride, Denis
Burns, John Edwards, Owen Morgan Labouchere, Henry
Caldwell, James Ellis, John Edward Lambert, George
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan) Langley, Batty
Channing, Francis Allston Fenwick, Charles Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'l'nd
Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.) Ferguson, R. C. M. (Leith) Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)
Colville, John Flynn, James Christopher Leuty, Thomas Richmond
Condon, Thomas Joseph Goddard, Daniel Ford Lewis, John Herbert
Crilly, Daniel Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir W.
Lloyd-George, David Pease, J. A. (Northumb.) Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.
Logan, John William Pickersgill, Edward Hare Steadman, William Charles
Macaleese, Daniel Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs S W) Stevenson, Francis S.
MacDonnell, Dr. M. A. (Qu'n's C Power, Patrick Joseph Stuart, James (Shoreditch)
M'Crae, George Price, Robert John Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
M'Dermott, Patrick Provand, Andrew Dryburgh Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)
M'Ewan, William Randell, David Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr)
M'Ghee, Richard Reckitt, Harold James Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
M'Kenna, Reginald Rickett, J. Compton Wedderburn, Sir William
M'Leod, John Roberts, John H.(Denbighs.) Whiteley, George(Stockport)
Maddison, Fred. Samuel,J.(Stockton-on-Tees) Williams, John Carvell (Notts.)
Maden, John Henry Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.
Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merth'r Shaw, Charles E.(Stafford) Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd
Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.) Yoxall, James Henry
Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport) Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.)
Nussey, Thomas Willans Soames, Arthur Wellesley TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W. Souttar, Robinson Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur
Oldroyd, Mark Spicer, Albert
NOES.
Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden Digby, John K. D. Wingfield- Kimber, Henry
Anson, Sir William Reynell Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Lafone, Alfred
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Doughty, George Laurie, Lieut.-General
Arnold, Alfred Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. Lea, Sir Thos. (Londonderry)
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Doxford, William Theodore Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Drucker, A. Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie
Baird, John George Alexander Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset)
Balcarres, Lord Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Ed ward Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r) Finch, George H. Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverp'l)
Banbury, Frederick George Firbank, Joseph Thomas Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller
Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts Fisher, William Hayes Lorne, Marquess of
Bartley, George C. T. Fison, Frederick William Lowe, Francis William
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) Lowles, John
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol Galloway, William Johnson Lucas-Shadwell, William
Beckett, Ernest William Gedge, Sydney Macartney, W. G. Ellison
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Gibbons, J. Lloyd Macdona, John Cumming
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lon) MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Beresford, Lord Charles Godson, Sir Augustus Fred. M'Iver, Sir L.(Edinburgh, W.)
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Goldsworthy, Major-General Malcolm, Ian
Blundell, Colonel Henry Goschen, Rt. Hn G J (St George's Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W F.
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Goschen, George J.(Sussex) Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Bousfield, William Robert Goulding, Edward Alfred Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas. J.
Brassey, Albert Graham, Henry Robert Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Milner, Sir Frederick George
Brookfield, A. Montagu Green, Walford D (Wednesbury Milton, Viscount
Bullard, Sir Harry Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs. Milward, Colonel Victor
Burdett-Coutts, W. Greville, Hon. Ronald Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Carlile, William Walter Gull, Sir Cameron More, Robert J.(Shropshire)
Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs.) Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'th S h
Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbysh.) Halsey, Thomas Frederick Morrell, George Herbert
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George Morrison, Walter
Cecil, Evelyn(Hertford, East) Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert W. Morton, Arthur HA(Deptford)
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Hanson, Sir Reginald Mount, William George
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Hardy, Laurence Muntz, Philip A.
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Hare, Thomas Leigh Murray, Rt. Hn. A.G.(Bute)
Charrington, Spencer Henderson, Alexander Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)
Chelsea, Viscount Hill, Sir Edward Stock (Bristol) Murray, Col. W yndham(Bath)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Hobhouse, Henry Nicholson, William Graham
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow) Nicol Donald Ninian
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hornby, Sir William Henry Northcote, Hon Sir H Stafford
Colomb, Sir John Charles R. Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Compton, Lord Ailwyn Howell, William Tudor Pender, Sir James
Cornwallis, F. Stanley W. Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil Pierpoint, Robert
Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D. Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton)
Cox, Irwin E. Bainbridge Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Cross, Alexander(Glasgow) Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Purvis, Robert
Curzon, Viscount Jolliffe, Hon. H. George Rankin, Sir James
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Kemp, George Rentoul, James Alexander
Davies, Sir Horatio D.(Chat.) Kenyon, James Richards, Henry Charles
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William Richardson, Sir Thos(Hartlop'l
Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W. Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chs. Thomson Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M. Williams, Jos. Powell-(Birm.)
Robertson, Herbert(Hackney) Stock, James Henry Willox, Sir John Archibald
Round, James Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Royds, Clement Molyneux Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh N.)
Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Rutherford, John Thornton, Percy M. Wylie, Alexander
Ryder, John Herbert Dudley Tollemache, Henry James Wyndham, George
Sandys, Lieut.-Col. T. Myles Tominson, Wm. Edw. Murray Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Seton-Karr, Henry Valentia, Viscount Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Simeon, Sir Barrington Wanklyn, James Leslie Young, Commander(Berks,E.)
Skewer-Cox, Thomas Ward, Hon. Robert A.(Crewe)
Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.) Warde, Lieut.-Col. C.E.(Kent TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Smith, Hon. W.F. D.(Strand) Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Spencer, Ernest Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk) Wharton, Rt. Hon. J. Lloyd

MR. D. A. THOMAS moved, "That the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again," but the Chairman, being of opinion that the motion was an abuse of the rules of the House, declined to propose the Question thereupon to the Committee.

* THE CHAIRMAN

The next Amendment in order is the second Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Mid-Glamorganshire.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

On a point of order, I wish to ask whether the Amendment of the hon. Member for Shoreditch is not in order. What he proposes is to insert the following clause: For the purposes of this Act returns shall be made annually, and presented to Parliament by the Local Government Board—

  1. "(a) By every rating authority, showing the sums actually exempted by them in respect of the rating of tithes in accordance with the provisions of this Act.
  2. "(b) By the Local Government Board, showing for each county and county borough the total amount of rates exempted by this Act, and the amount by which the Exchequer contribution fund of each county and county borough falls short in consequence of the payment out of the Local Taxation Account under provisions of this Act."
That is taken bodily out of the Agricultural Rating Act, and is for a similar purpose. Therefore I submit it is in order and not inconsistent with anything that has been done.

* THE CHAIRMAN

That Amendment deals with the same subject matter as the clause which the Committee has just refused to accept. The subject is not dealt with in the same way, but the subject matter is the same, and the clause should properly come as an Amendment to the clause which has been rejected.

MR. SAMUEL EVANS

If this Amendment were in the hands of anyone else I should be inclined to describe it as a most important Amendment, and I should deplore that it had to be taken at such an hour of the morning. It is not my fault that the clause smacks of language somewhat of an ecclesiastical character, but it is absolutely accurate in accordance with the form of the writ in such cases. The clause reads as follows:— This Act shall not apply while the said tithe rent-charge, or any other fruits, profits, oblations, obventions, ecclesiastical rights, or emoluments of or attaching to the benefice shall be sequestered by a writ of fieri facias de bonis ecclesiasticis or any other writ of sequestration. Sequestration in clerical affairs is really bankruptcy. If a man in such circumstances were not a clergyman he would be called a bankrupt. The reason why a separate writ has to be issued is that a clergyman's goods are supposed to be of a somewhat sacred character, and are not to be touched by lay hands. In ordinary life a man whose goods are seized by an Official Receiver is termed a bankrupt, and he is not able to fulfil ordinary civic duties or obligations. If he be a member of a school board or of a board of guardians he ceases to be a member. A Member of this House may be guilty of all sorts of things, but he must not be a bankrupt. If he is he ceases to be a Member. But, curiously enough, until the Clergy Discipline Act of a few years ago a living could not by any proceeding be taken out of the hands of the holder of a benefice even though he were a bankrupt. Even now a distinction is made. It is assumed unless the bishop takes proceedings that a clergyman is fit to preach to his congregation that they ought to pay their debts, and to render unto Cæsar that which is his, although he himself cannot pay his creditors. Under such circumstances it cannot be right that the tithe rent-charge attached to a benefice which is sequestrated should be free from rates. Everyone will admit that. When he ceases to enjoy the profits of the benefice by reason of having got into difficulties with his creditors, surely the reason for exemption no longer applies, and there is no reason why the creditors should be entitled to the relief. Everything that he has is seized under this writ.

New clause (provisions as to sequestrated benefices)—(Mr. Samuel Evans)—brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."

SIR R. B. FINLAY

The hon. Member has forgotten that a writ of sequestration is an execution rather than a bankruptcy. I trust he will not seriously press this clause. May I point out that the maintenance of proper services in the parish is a first charge on the revenue of the living, even though it be under sequestration. Sequestration, too, does not last a very long time, for, if it is likely to, then pro-

vision is made for removing the clergyman from the benefice. Take an ordinary case where a writ is in force for a short time. Surely it would be extremely inconvenient to have to make a certain abatement of rates for say a period of six weeks? Would it not be more convenient that the same rule should continue to apply, even if there be a temporary execution in force? I hope the hon. and learned Member will not press the Amendment.

MR. M'KENNA (Monmouthshire, N.)

The suggestion of the Solicitor-General seems to be that, inasmuch as a writ of sequestration only lasts a short period, this Amendment is unnecessary. But this Bill is also only to last a brief time, and it is quite possible that a writ of sequestration may run the whole length of its duration. I think my hon. friend has made out a clear case in favour of this Amendment, although it is evident that the Government had determined to accept no alteration that is proposed, however valuable it may be.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 97; Noes, 201. (Division List, No. 267.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Nussey, Thomas Willans
Asher, Alexander Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale- O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.
Austin, M.(Limerick, W.) Hedderwick, Thomas C. H. Oldroyd, Mark
Barlow, John Emmott Hornman, Frederick John Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.
Bayley, Thomas(Derbyshire) Humpheys-Owen, Arthur C. Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Billson, Alfred Joicey, Sir James Pilkingion, Sir Geo A (Lancs S W
Birrell, Augustine Jones, David B.(Swansea) Power, Patrick Joseph
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Jones, W.(Carnarvonshire) Price, Robert John.
Burns, John Kilbriile, Denis Provand, Andrew Dryburgh
Caldwell, James Labouchere, Henry Randell, David
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Lambert, George Reckitt, Harold James
Channing, Francis Allston Langley, Batty Rickett, J. Compton
Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.) Lawson, Sir W.(Cumberland) Roberts, John H.(Denbighs.)
Colville, John Leese, Sir J. F.(Accrington) Samuel, J.(Stockton-on-Tees)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Leuty, Thomas Richmond Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Crilly, Daniel Lewis, John Herbert Shaw, Charles Edw.(Stafford)
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) Lloyd-George, David Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Dalziel, James Henry Logan, John William Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.)
Davies, M. V.-(Cardigan) Macaleese, Daniel Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Davitt, Michael Mac Donnell, Dr. M. A. (Q's C.) Souttar, Robinson
Donelan, Captain A. M'Arthur, William (Cornwall Spicer, Albert
Doogan, P. C. M'Crae, George. Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.
Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark) Dermott, Patrick Steadman, William Charles
Duckworth, James M'Ewan, William Steadman, William Charles
Edwards, Owen Morgan M'Ghee, Richard Stevenson, Francis S.
Ellis, John Edward M'Leod, John Stuart, James (Shoreditch)
Fenwick, Charles Maddison, Fred. Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro(Leith) Maden, John Henry Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Flynn, James Christopher Morgan, W. P. (Merthr) Thomas, D. A. (Merthyr)
Gladstone, Rt. Hon. H. John Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Goddard, Daniel Ford Morton, E. J. C.(Devonport)
Wedderburn, Sir William Wilson, Henry J.(York, W.R.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Whiteley, George(Stockport) Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd Mr. Samuel Evans and Mr. M'Kenna.
Williams, John Carvell (Notts) Yoxall, James Henry
NOES.
Allhusen, Augustus Henry E. Galloway, Wm. Johnson Morrell, George Herbert
Anson, Sir William Reynell Gedge, Sydney Morrison, Walter
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Gibbons, J. Lloyd Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)
Arnold, Alfred Gibbs, Hn A. G. H. (City of Lond. Mount, William George
Arnold-Foster, Hugh O. Godson, Sir A. Frederick Muntz, Philip A.
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Goldsworthy, Major-General Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute
Bagot, Captain J.FitzRoy Goschen, Rt Hn G. J. (St George's Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Baird, John George A. Goschen, George J.(Sussex) Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Balcarres, Lord Goulding, Edward Alfred Nicholson, William Graham
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Man'r Graham, Henry Robert Nicol, Donald Ninian
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds) Gray, Ernest(West Ham) Northcote, Hon. Sir H. S.
Banbury, Frederick George Green, W. D. (Wednesbury) O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) Pender, Sir James
Bartley, George C. T. Greville, Hon. Ronald Pierpoint, Robert
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Gull, Sir Cameron Pilkington, R.(Lancs, Newton)
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Beckett, Ernest William Halsey, Thomas Frederick Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord G. Purvis, Robert
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. W. Rankin, Sir James
Beresford, Lord Charles Hanson, Sir Reginald Rentoul, James Alexander
Bhownagree, Sir M. M. Hardy, Laurence Richards, Henry Charles
Blundell, Colonel Henry Hare, Thomas Leigh Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol) Ridley, Rt. Hon Sir Matthew W
Bousfield, William Robert Hobhouse, Henry Ritchie, Rt. Hon Chas. Thomson
Brassey, Albert Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow) Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Hornby, Sir William Henry Round, James
Brookfield, A. Montagu Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Royds, Clement Molyneux
Bullard, Sir Harry Howell, William Tudor Russell, T. W.(Tyrone)
Burdett-Coutts, W. Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil Rutherford, John
Carlile, William Walter Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Ryder, John Herbert Dudley
Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs.) Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Sandys, Lieut.-Col. T. Myles
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Seton-Karr, Henry
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Simeon, Sir Barrington
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, E.) Jolliffe, Hon. H. George Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Kemp, George Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.
Chamberlan, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Kenyon, James Smith, Hon. W. F. D.(Strand)
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Kenyon-Slaney Col. William Spencer, Ernest
Charrington, Spencer Kimber, Henry Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk
Chelsea, Viscount Lafone, Alfred Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Laurie, Lieut.-General Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Stock, James Henry
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Lea, Sir Thomas (Londonderry) Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Colomb, Sir John Charles R. Lees, Sir Elliott(Birkenhead) Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Compton, Lord Alwyne Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset) Thornton, Percy M.
Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Edw. T. D. Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Tollemache, Henry James
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverpool) Valentia, Viscount
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller Wanklyn, James Leslie
Curzon, Viscount Lorne, Marquess of Ward, Hon. Robert A.(Crewe)
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Lowe, Francis William Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent)
Davies, Sir Horatio D(Chatham Lowles, John Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. Lucas-Shadwell, William Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Digby, J. K. D. Wingfield- Macartney, W. G. Ellison Wharton, Rt. Hon. Jno. Lloyd
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Macdona, John Cumming Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Doughty, George Maclver, David(Liverpool) Williams, Jos. Powell (Birm.)
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinb,W.) Willox Sir John Archibald
Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. Malcolm, Ian Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Doxford, William Theodore Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.
Drucker, A. Meysey-Thompson Sir H M. Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Milbank, Sir Powlett Charles J. Wylie, Alexander
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edwd. Mildmay, Francis Bingham Wymdham, George
Finch, George H. Milner, Sir Frederick George Wyndham-Quin, Major W.H.
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Milton, Viscount Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Firbank, Joseph Thomas Milward, Colonel Victor Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Fisher, William Hayes Moon, Edward Robert Pacy TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Fison, Frederick William More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire) Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)
* THE CHAIRMAN

The remaining clauses on the Paper are out of order.

MR. LABOUCHERE

Perhaps, Sir, you have overlooked the Amendment standing in my name, which I have been waiting here three weary days to propose. The new clause I wish to propose is—

"The county council of any county may determine by resolution that the provisions in this Act contained shall not for the time

being, and until the resolution is rescinded, apply within the area of the county."

* THE CHAIRMAN

It should have come on as a proviso at the end of the first clause.

Question put, "That the Chairman do report the Bill, without Amendment, to the House."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 189; Noes, 94. (Division List, No. 268).

AYES.
Allhusen, Augstus Hen. Eden Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)
Anson, Sir William Reynell Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie
Archdale, Edward Mervyn Doxford, William Theordore Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset)
Arnold, Alfred Drucker, A. Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O. Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw. Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (L'pool)
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Finch, George H. Lorne, Marquess of
Baird, John George Alexander Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Lowe, Francis William
Balcarres, Lord Firbank, Joseph Thomas Lowles, John
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r Fisher, William Hayes Lucas-Shadwell, William
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W.(Leeds) Fison, Frederick William Macartney, W. G. Ellison
Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts Foster, Colonel(Lancaster) Macdona, John Cumming
Bartley, George C.T. Galloway, William Johnson MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Burton, Dunbar Plunket Gedge, Sydney M'Iver, Sir Lewis Edinb'h, W.)
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol Gibbons, J. Lloyd Malcolm, Ian
Beckett, Ernest William Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (C. of Lond.) Massey-Mainwaring, Hon. W. F
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe Godson, Sir Augustus Fred. Maysey-Thompson, Sir M. H.
Bentinck, Lord Henry C. Goldsworthy, Major-General Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas John
Beresford, Lord Charles Goschen, Ht Hn G J (St George's) Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. Goschen, George J. (Sussex) Milner, Sir Frederick George
Blundell, Colonel Henry Goulding, Edward Alfred Milton, Viscount
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Graham, Henry Robert Milward, Colonel Victor
Bousfield, William Robert Gray, Ernest (West Ham) Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Brassey, Albert Green, W. D.(Wednesbury) More, Rbt. Jasper (Shropshire)
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.) Morgan, Hn. Fred (Monm'thsh.)
Brookfield, A. Montagu Greville, Hon. Ronald Morrell, George Herbert
Bullard, Sir Harry Gull, Sir Cameron Morrison, Walter
Burdett-Coutts, W. Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute
Carlile, William Walter Halsey, Thomas Frederick Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs. Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath)
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.) Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. Wm. Nicol, Donald Ninian
Cayzer, Sir Charles William Hanson, Sir Reginald Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East) Hardy, Laurence O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Chaloner, Captain R. G.W. Hare, Thomas Leigh Pender, Sir James
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.) Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol) Pierpoint, Robert
Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r Hobhouse, Henry Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton)
Charrington, Spencer Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow) Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Chelsea, Viscount Hornby, Sir William Henry Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E. Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry Purvis, Robert
Cohen, Benjamin Louis Howell, William Tudor Rentoul, James Alexander
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Hozier, Hon. Jas. Henry Cecil Richards, Henry Charles
Colomb, Sir Jno. Chas. Ready Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn Richardson, Sir Thos (Hartlep'l)
Compton, Lord Alwyne Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice- Ridley, Rt Hon Sir Matthew W.
Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W. Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Ritchie, Rt. Hon Charles T.
Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D. Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) Robertson, Herbert(Hackney)
Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge Jolliffe, Hon. H. George Round, James
Cubitt, Hon. Henry Kemp, George Royds, Clement Molyneux
Curzon, Viscount Kenyon, James Russell, T. W.(Tyrone)
Dalrymple, Sir Charles Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William Rutherford, John
Davies, Sir H. D.(Chatham) Kimber, Henry Ryder, John Herbert Dudley
Dickson-Poynder, Sir J. P. Lafone, Alfred Sandys, Lieut-Col. Thomas M.
Dighy, John K. D. Wingfield- Laurie, Lieut.-General Simeon, Sir Barrington
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.) Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Doughty, George Lea, Sir Thomas (Londonderry) Smith, James P. (Lanarks)
Smith, Hon. W. F. D.(Strand) Tollemache, Henry James Willox, Sir John Archibald
Spencer, Ernest Tomlinson, Wm. Edward M. Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Stanley, Hon. A.(Ormskirk) Valentia, Viscount Wylie, Alexander
Stanley, Lord (Lancs.) Ward, Hon. Robert A.(Crewe) Wyndham, George
Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M. Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent) Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Stock, James Henry Welby, Lieut-Col. A. C. E. Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- Young, Commander(Berks, E.)
Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier Wharton, Rt. Hon. John L. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Talbot, Lord E.(Chichester) Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Thornton, Percy M. Williams, J. Powell-(Birm.)
NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda) Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. Power, Patrick Joseph
Asher, Alexander Joicey, Sir James Price, Robert John
Austin, M.(Limerick, W.) Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea) Provand, Andrew Dryburgh
Barlow, John Emmott Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.) Randell, David
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) Kilbride, Denis Reckitt, Harold James
Billson, Alfred Labouchere, Henry Rickitt, J. Compton
Birrell, Augustine Lambert, George Roberts, John H. (Denbighs).
Bolton, Thomas Dolling Langley, Batty Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Burns, John Lawson, Sir W.(Cumberland) Scott, Chas. Prestwich(Leigh)
Caldwell, James Leese, Sir J. F.(Accrington) Shaw, Charles Edw.(Stafford)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. Leuty, Thomas Richmond Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)
Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.) Lewis, John Herbert Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.
Colville, John Lloyd-George, David Souttar, Robinson
Condon, Thomas Joseph Logan, John William Spicer, Albert
Crilly, Daniel Macaleese, Daniel Steadman, William Charles
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.) MacDonnell, Dr M A (Qneen's C) Stevenson, Francis S.
Dalziel, James Henry M'Crae, George Stuart, James (Shoreditch)
Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardig'n M'Dermott, Patrick Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Davitt, Michael M'Ewan, William Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)
Donelan, Captain A. M'Ghee, Richard Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Doogan, P. C. M'Kenna, Reginald Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark) M'Leod, John Wedderburn, Sir William
Duckworth, James Maddison, Fred. Williams, John Carvell (Notts.
Edwards, Owen Morgan Maden, John Henry Wilson, Henry J. (York. W. R.)
Ellis, John Edward Morgan, W. P.(Merthyr) Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Evans, S. T.(Glamorgan) Morley, Charles (Breconshire) Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)
Fenwick, Charles Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport) Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudderf'd
Ferguson, R. C. Munro(Leith) Nussey, Thomas Willans Yoxall, James Henry
Flynn, James Christopher O'Connor, J.(Wicklow, W.)
Goddard, Daniel Ford Oldroyd, Mark
Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale- Pease, Joseph A.(Northumb.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Hedderwick, Thomas Charles H Pickersgill, Edward Hare Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur.
Horniman, Frederick John Pilkington, Sir Geo A (Lancs S W

Question put and agreed to.

House resumed.

MR. DALZIEL

On a point of order may I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether, the Twelve o'clock rule having been suspended in respect of the Tithe Rent-charge Bill, it is competent to go on to the next Order of the day? I consider that the Government ought to consult the convenience of Members in all parts of the House.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

I have not the least objection, to-day being Friday, and in the exceptional circumstances of the case, to move the adjournment of the House.

Motion made and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

On the question of adjournment, I should wish to make a personal explanation to the right hon. the President of the Board of Trade. I stated in the course of the discussion of one of the Amendments that he had given a pledge that certain Returns which had been asked for would be made, and I suggested that that pledge had not been redeemed. I fully admit now that the right hon. Gentleman had fulfilled his pledge.

MR. RITCHIE

was understood to say that he accepted the explanation of the hon. Member for Carnarvon.

House adjourned accordingly at five minutes after Four of the clock in the morning.