TITHE RENT-CHARGE (RATES) BILL.

HC Deb 13 July 1899 vol 74 cc713-860

Considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 2:—

MR. D. A. THOMAS (Merthyr Tydfil)

On a point of order I desire to ask your ruling. My point is that this Bill does not comply with Standing Orders, and therefore I submit it ought not to be proceeded with. There can be no manner of doubt that it does not comply with the Standing Orders, and if we have such orders surely we ought to abide by them. I rely on Standing Order No. 45, which lays down very definitely that the precise duration of every temporary law shall be expressed in a distinct clause at the end of the Bill. Now this is certainly a Bill of a temporary nature, yet its precise duration is dealt with at the end of a clause which includes many other points. I know there is a precedent, and it is an unfortunate one—the Agricultural Rating Act, 1896.

* THE CHAIRMAN

I do not wish to express any opinion on this question, but it cannot be raised now.

MR. D. A. THOMAS

Later on, then?

* THE CHAIRMAN

If the hon. Member presses for a decision I must tell him that I think the fact that the Bill has been read a second time has overcome any informality. The point should have been raised on the Second Reading.

MR. D. A. THOMAS

But a Standing Order is a Standing Order.

* THE CHAIRMAN

The objection should have been taken when the Speaker was in the Chair. The question cannot be raised now.

MR. D. A. THOMAS

Shall I be in order in raising it on Clause 4?

* THE CHAIRMAN

We had better proceed with the second clause.

MR. D. A. THOMAS

At any rate, I will propose an Amendment.

* THE CHAIRMAN

As regards the Amendment of the Member for Lichfield, it appears to me to be a pure matter of form, and to have no substance in it.

MR. WARNER (Staffordshire, Lichfield)

My reason for putting down the Amendment is this—that the ingenuity of some lawyer might nullify the real object of the clause, and therefore if you put in some unnecessary words you may enable a lawyer to do something which is not contemplated by this House. I beg to move this Amendment. I do not think there is any harm in leaving out these words. I do not suppose that the Minister for Agriculture will approve of it, but I think the Amendment ought to be considered by the House.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 13, to leave out 'unless the context otherwise requires.'"—(Mr. Warner.)

Question proposed— That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause.

THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir R. B. FINLAY,) Inverness Burghs

These words are in the ordinary common form, and I hope the hon. Member will not persist in the Amendment.

MR. LAMBERT (Devon, South Molton)

It seems to me that these words should not be inserted. We are not all blessed with a legal education like the Solicitor-General. I contend that a Bill ought to be so drafted that the context should not be required to express its meaning. I am one of those who have often complained of Acts of Parliament being badly drafted, and I have sometimes difficulty in understanding them. Nor am I the only one in that position; for the principal duty of the lawyers is to argue with one another as to the meaning of Acts of Parliament. On the ground of simplicity of drafting, and for the benefit of people outside legal circles, I think the words should be left out.

SIR R. B. FINLAY

They can do no harm.

MR. ELLIS J. GRIFFITH (Anglesey)

This Bill is much more important than that one of its provisions should be justified on the ground that "it will do no harm." I hope the Bill is going to do some good and not harm.

MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON (Dundee)

I sympathise with the Solicitor-General in the line he has taken in saying that these words are in "common form," and that there is no reason against their being in the Bill.

MR. LAMBERT

The next Amendment on the Paper, which is in my name, is, in page 1, line 13, after "requires," to insert— The expression of 'conforming owner' shall mean owner who acts in strict confor- mity with the doctrines and principles of the Reformed Church of England.

* THE CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member knows that the Amendment which he had on the Paper the first day the Bill was in Committee was ruled out of order, and that this similar Amendment cannot possibly be in order.

MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON

Yesterday afternoon the First Lord of the Treasury, answering a speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouth, said it was an extraordinary proposition to say that Scotland and Ireland had anything to do with this Bill. The right hon. Gentleman's meaning was perfectly plain—namely, that it would be from Ireland and Scotland that would come some of the money at least required by the Bill. When I listened to the right hon. the First Lord it occurred to me whether it was not possible that Scotland and Ireland were not even directly interested in this Bill, and that it was the duty of the representatives of Scottish and Irish constituencies to see that this Bill was limited entirely to England, and that it should by no possibility be applied to Scotland and Ireland. In looking over the Bill—and I believe that this Bill has been more closely scrutinised than any other during this session—I was surprised to find that there is not within its four corners one single word which expressly and specifically limits the application of the Bill to England. The object of the two Amendments which I have placed on the paper—both of which are in "common form" so much approved by the Solicitor-General, and therefore ought to commend themselves to him—is to make it perfectly plain that the Bill is limited to England only, and does not apply to Scotland or Ireland. The first Amendment I have put down is to define the Local Taxation Account mentioned in the Bill. I propose to add words in Subsection 2 to the effect that "the expression 'The Local Taxation Account' shall have the same meaning as in the Local Government Act, 1888." Now, sir, I would first call the attention of the House to the Estate Duty Grant. The legal definition of the Estate Duty Grant is contained in the Finance Act of 1894, section 19, which is referred to in the Definition Clause proposed by the Government in this Bill. It says that in substitution for the grant of Probate Duties under certain named Acts—no reference is made to the grant out of the Local Taxation Account, 1894—a new grant is to be made called the Estate Duty Grant, and that grant is specifically stated to be "one sum." I direct the attention of hon. Members to the fact that the grant we are dealing with is "one grant"; it is declared by the Act of Parliament to be "one sum," not three separate sums—one sum which is to be paid under the provisions of three separate Acts of Parliament. Now, it is quite true that the Local Government Act of 1888 creates and defines for the purposes of that Act, and not, so far as I am aware, for any other purpose whatever, a Local Taxation Account; anti two other Acts of Parliament created two finance accounts, which were named "Local Taxation (Scotland) Account," and "Local Taxation (Ireland) Account," for the purposes of those Statutes respectively. There are, therefore, three Taxation Accounts, and what we want to make perfectly clear is, that the account from which the money is to come for the purposes of this Bill is the Local Taxation Account mentioned in the Local Government Act of 1888. That is a matter we are entitled to demand on the score of ordinary decencies of Parliamentary draftsmanship; on the score of its being ordinary "common form," to which the Solicitor - General attaches so much importance. This is not the first time the Government has dealt with the Local Taxation Account. In the year 1896 they passed an Act—the Agricultural Rates Act—in which they dealt with the Local Taxation Account, although that Act was clearly and expressly limited to England—while this Act is not limited to England by any single word—by an express provision in the Act itself and in the title of the Act, in accordance with loyalty to "common form" to which the Solicitor-General professes so much attachment. The Government proposed, in the definition clause in the Act of 1896, that the expression "Local Taxation Account" should have the same meaning as in the Local Government Act of 1888. That is the very Amendment that I want to move in this Bill—that the expression "Local Taxation Account" should have the same meaning in this Bill as in the Local Government Act of 1888. I do this because I think it is perfectly necessary and proper to safeguard the other two Local Taxation Accounts, particularly inasmuch as the fund granted by the Finance Act of 1894 is declared to be "one sum," although there are three separate charges upon it. I would like to say a word about my other Amendment, because it is related to this one. I think both are necessary, but possibly one would be sufficient. The second Amendment I want to move is to include in the Title Clause of the Bill, which runs thus at present:—"This Act may be cited as the Tithe Rent-charge (Rates) Act, 1889," the words "and shall extend to England only." If the President of the Board of Agriculture or the Solicitor-General will tell me that they will accept the second Amendment, it may not be necessary to proceed with the first; although, if they accept either, there will be no difficulty about accepting both. At all events, it appears to me absolutely necessary, and I trust that "common form" will induce them to assent to one or other or both of the Amendments of which I have given notice. I cannot see how they can do otherwise. There is nothing in either of the Amendments against the principle of the Bill or against the course taken by the Government on a precisely similar occasion.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 13, after the word 'requires,' to insert the words, '(a) The expression "the Local Taxation Account" shall have the same meaning as in the Local Government Act, 1888.'"—(Mr. Edmund Robertson.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

SIR R. B. FINLAY

I think I can satisfy my hon. and learned friend that both the Amendments are quite unnecessary, and that this Bill does not extend to Scotland or Ireland, but extends to England only. The Amendments are absolutely unnecessary, because there is no tithe rent-charge in Scotland; there are only teinds; and in Ireland there is now no tithe rent-charge attached to the benefice. So that in the very nature of things the Bill can only extend to England and Wales, and, therefore, the first Amendment is absolutely unnecessary, and will introduce words into the Bill which are not in the least necessary. The second Amendment is also not at all wanted. The Local Taxation Account is limited to England and Wales. If my hon. and learned friend will refer to Sections 20 and 21 of the Local Government Act of 1888, he will see that "Local Taxation Account" is the proper statutory title for England and Wales. The statutory titles of the Scottish and Irish Accounts are the Local Taxation (Scotland) Account, and the Local Taxation (Ireland) Account. I think my hon. and learned friend will see that both of his Amendments are unnecessary.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT (Monmouthshire, W.)

The Solicitor-General's explanation is the most extraordinary I have ever heard. Under the Bill the Commissioners of Inland Revenue are ordered out of the sums payable by them to the Local Taxation Account on account of the Estate Duty Grant to pay one-half of the rates as the tithe. It may be that tithes only exist in England, but the Local Taxation Accounts for Scotland and Ireland are bound to contribute unless a distinction is drawn between the accounts of the three countries. That is perfectly obvious on the face of it. The Solicitor-General is going against the authority of his own Government. If there is the smallest foundation for what he has said, the insertion of the distinction in the Agricultural Rating Act is perfectly senseless. It was seen perfectly plainly in 1896 that it was necessary to state that the fund to be charged was the Local Taxation Account within the meaning of the Local Government Act, 1888, and I would ask what objection there is now to make the thing clear? Let the Government say why they refuse to do now what they did in the case of the Act of 1896. I would like to hear from the Solicitor-General or the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill why they refuse to give protection to Scotland and Ireland in the case of this Bill. The Bill in its general terms is equally applicable to England, Scotland, or Ireland. It is an extraordinary thing that Unionists should not know that. I should have thought it was a part of their education to learn that. The Opposition know perfectly well why the Government refuse to give any reason for their action. It is because they are afraid to have the Bill discussed.

MR. LONG

The fact that the Government refuse to accept an Amendment does not prevent the Bill from being discussed. The right hon. Gentleman asked why the Government did not do in this Bill what was done in the Act of 1896. The answer I give is this: I have the greatest respect for the right hon. Gentleman's opinion, but when it conies to a question of legal interpretation I prefer to take the advice of my hon. and learned friend the Solicitor-General. My hon. and learned friend holds that there was no necessity for any additional words, and the Government agree with him. I have taken the very best advice before adopting the phraseology in the Bill, and I am advised that "the Local Taxation Account" is the statutory description of the account limited to England and Wales. If unnecessary words were put into the Act of 1896, surely that is no reason why it should be done now. There is not the smallest doubt as to the fund out of which the money is to come, and, therefore, the Government decline to accept the Amendment.

* MR. HEMPHILL (Tyrone, N.)

As an Irish Member, I must certainly rise to support the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Dundee. I do not think it is fair to leave it open to question in a court of justice as to whether the Local Taxation (Ireland) Account might not be encroached upon for the purpose of this Bill. To my knowledge there have been several cases of the judges of the Court of Appeal differing as to the construction of what were considered in this House as very clear words. That being the case I must, on behalf and in protection of the Irish Local Taxation Fund, beg the House to pass this Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Dundee. It is quite true that at present in Ireland there are no tithes attached to benefices, but tithes exist in Ireland as they always did, though they are now vested in a different body. But, as was pointed out by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouth, the point is not whether tithe exists in Ireland; the point is whether the money which is taken by this Bill for the relief of the English parsons could possibly be taken out of the Irish Fund. That is what I want to make perfectly clear. As has been said—and it was obvious to everyone in this House—an Act of Parliament primâ facie applies to the three parts of the United Kingdom, and it requires express words to exclude Ireland or Scotland. The Local Taxation Account (Ireland) and the Local Taxation Account (Scotland) are all part and parcel of the Local Taxation Account. There is nothing in the wording of the Local Taxation Account to exclude Ireland or Scotland. Why leave it open to doubt? Is it for the mere purpose of procedure, or for the purpose of the carriage of this Bill through the House, in addition to all the powers of closure—closure of clauses and closure in every shape and form—that this Amendment is rejected? It cannot possibly do any harm. It may prevent the possibility of a mistake, and I think the Irish Members would be wanting in their duty if they did not, as far as in them lay, support this Amendment to make it clear that the Irish funds shall not be encroached upon for the benefit of the clergy.

MR. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn Regis)

What the Act of 1894 did was to substitute an entirely new procedure for that of 1888. In this case it is not a question from which of the Local Taxation Accounts this money is to be taken. What this Bill does is to take the money out of the precedent heap which is collected by the Exchequer before it is allocated to the Local Taxation Accounts at all. The sum which has to be passed is absolutely undetermined. It is true we have an estimate of £87,000, but that is a very uncertain estimate, and the whole amount is charged, not to the Local Taxation Account, but to the fund from which the three Local Taxation Accounts are fed. If that is so, it is very necessary to see that no part of that part of the Estate Duty which is devoted to the purposes of technical educations is diverted from its proper channel by this Bill. If there is no desire to avoid discussion on this measure, this is a case for avoiding ambiguity. Let us not have a Bill which is going to lead to lawsuits on matters like this, upon which your profession is that you are doing right and justice. Why cannot the Government accept these simple words? The reason they do not is not because they wish to avoid a discussion on the Report stage, because I do not think the Government would be paltry or mean enough to do such a thing as that. If I were in charge of a Bill, I should welcome anything that would make the Bill more certain in its operation, and I think in this case there is a very strong case made for the acceptance by the Government of this Amendment.

SIR R. B. FINLAY

The hon. Gentleman says that this money is to be taken out of the sums payable to the Local Taxation Account. Now, there are three Local Taxation Accounts—for Ireland, and Scotland. We say this money should be taken out of "The Local Taxation Account," and that affects England and Wales only. The hon. Gentleman has suggested that the matter might come into a court of law, but I do not see how it can possibly do so.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

The Commissioners of Inland Revenue take the course the law prescribes, and that is the course they will take. It not only can be brought into a court of law, but will be. The opposition of the right hon. Gentleman is the most extraordinary I ever heard; it is perfectly plain that the interest of the English ratepayer is that he shall contribute as little as possible, and of course Ireland and Scotland must contribute their share from some source or other.

SIR R. B. FINLAY

From what source?

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

Does the right hon. Gentleman say, where three people are required to pay, that one shall pay, but that he will not have a form by which the amount due from the other two should be collected? Here are three Statutory Accounts to pay for the endowment of the English clergy, and yet he says he will have no form by which to compel payment from two of them. I should say that outside the House of Commons the right hon. and learned Gentleman—

SIR R. B. FINLAY

I should say out side the House what I have said here.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

His learning and ingenuity would not fail him like this outside the House. I can understand why he was not anxious to speak upon this Bill. I agree with the hon. Member for King's Lynn that it is intended to pay this money out of the fund from which the Local Taxation Account is fed, and who can say what that money is? To say the least, that is a point that should be cleared up, and it would be very satisfactory if the Solicitor-General would explain to us why he put into the Agricultural Rating Act that particular clause.

DR. CLARK (Caithness)

I think it is desirable that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue should know where they are to get this money from. As this Bill, as I understood, was only to apply to England, I did not propose to interfere in this discussion; but now we have these very ambiguous words, I think some explanation is necessary. This ambiguity ought to be made clear. In the 22nd Clause of the Local Government Act the Commons were empowered to take four-fifths of one-half, and leave one-fifth undetermined, and that one-fifth was afterwards divided between Ireland and Scotland. But this is an interception of the money before it goes into any of these accounts. This amount is to be abstracted from the total sum, and a portion will have to be taken from the Irish and Scotch Local Taxation Accounts. It appears to me these are the facts of the case. If the words "Local Taxation Account" are to be retained, you should determine whether they refer to the Local Taxation Account created by the Local Government (England) Act, 1888. What we want is to make it perfectly clear that the Local Taxation Account mentioned is the account created by that Act. Otherwise, it would be possible to take the amount required out of the whole sum. Indeed, it looks to me that the Bill as it at present stands would compel you to take the amount out of the whole sum. The Amendment makes it clear that the money is to be taken from the sum payable under the 22nd Clause of the Local Government (England) Act, 1888; and, unless it is inserted, the money can be taken from the whole amount contributed to the three funds.

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR (Liverpool, Scotland)

I have scrupulously abstained from taking part in this Debate, for two reasons. Firstly, the Bill refers to the clergy of a different religion from my own, and I have no desire to interfere with the inner concerns of another creed. Up to this Amendment I had been under the impression that this Bill referred to England and to England alone. I have listened carefully to the discussion which has taken place, and I agree with the learned Serjeant on the Front Opposition Bench that the Bill in its present form is calculated to involve Irishmen. I candidly confess that I approach any financial Bill in which Ireland may be involved with a certain amount of perhaps undue and exaggerated apprehension. Every Irishman, irrespective of political parties, and almost without exception, is strongly of opinion that our country is seriously overtaxed. That opinion is backed by the Report of a Royal Commission mainly consisting of Englishmen, and in face of that Report we are still without any serious attempt to relieve us of this injustice. With this feeling and knowledge, we approach every financial Bill with the suspicion, and even the conviction, in our minds that our country is in some way or other cheated. That may be an unfair, but it is a strong suspicion. The second reason why I object to the clause is that this Bill is, for a good or a bad reason, going to add to the endowment of the clergy of the Church of England. We have no Church in Ireland endowed by a single penny of public money, and the policy has been laid down by successive Acts of Parliament that religious equality should be established by an absolute refusal to endow any Church. In face of that we are now presented with a Bill, one of the effects of which may be to tax our people in Ireland, who are mainly of a different religion, for the purpose of endowing the great, wealthy Protestant establishment of this country. You are asking a nation entirely free from establishment to contribute to the endowment of a Church which is Protestant and English. That appears to me to be an intolerable position. The case of the Government is that our apprehension is not justified, and that Ireland cannot be taxed under this Bill. In questions of finance and in the interpretation of statutes I have no right whatever to press my own opinion. But I have listened to this Debate, and when I find the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouthshire, who passed this Act, and the hon. Member for King's Lynn, who was his most constant, persistent, and able critic, in absolute agreement regarding the interpretation of this statute, what am I to do? If the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member who differed in every other respect in regard to this Bill, agree as to its interpretation in this particular, I, as a humble layman, must come to the conclusion that their opinion is more likely to be sound than not. Under these circumstances, a case is made out for doubt and ambiguity. All I can say is as a simple uninformed layman in financial matters that it appears to me that, if a certain amount is to be taken out of a common fund, each contributory to that fund is liable to pay a portion of that amount, and you cannot diminish the fund without diminishing the share of each member of it. Therefore, if you diminish this common fund by a contribution to the English Church, you thereby diminish that portion of the fund belonging to Ireland. All I am concerned to say is that either there is a case of ambiguity or there is not. Surely if there is not, Ireland ought to be relieved from the apprehension of being compelled to pay out of her poverty and Catholicity for the rich Protestant Church of England. Under these circumstances I hope the Government will see their way to accept this Amendment. As to the idea that you must pass this Bill in the exact words in which it was introduced in order to avoid another stage, my experience has always been that such attempts, like curses, come home to roost.

MR. STEVENSON (Suffolk, Eye)

I cannot conceive any hon. Member, whether he be a friend or an opponent of the Bill, desiring that this money should to the slightest extent come from Scotch or Irish sources for the purpose of helping an arrangement with which neither Scotland nor Ireland has absolutely anything to do. It is perfectly clear from what has fallen from the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Agriculture and the Solicitor-General that there is distinct ambiguity with regard to this term in the Bill. It is perfectly true that a different form of words was adopted in 1896 from that we are now disscussing, but still there is a possibility that some ambiguity may arise in future which may have to be decided at very great cost and after very considerable delay by a court of law. The position with regard to the fund at the disposal of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue may be compared to a great river which divides itself into three streams and forms a sort of delta. Eighty per cent. of the whole volume of water flows through one stream, 11 per cent. through another, and 9 per cent. through the third. What the supporters of this Bill desire to do is to intercept a certain portion of this volume of water for the purpose of irrigating one portion of the delta. In order to intercept the water it is necessary to construct a dam, and the question is whether it is to be constructed at a point above or below where the river divides itself into three streams. Obviously, if the water is intercepted above the dam, there is a possibility of the other channels running drier than before. What we want to know is the precise point where the dam is to be constructed, and whether the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to adopt some form of Amendment which will render any ambiguity absolutely impossible, and which will show in the clearest and most explicit language that he intends that the water shall be intercepted not above but below the point where the river divides itself. Should the right hon. Gentleman refuse to permit an Amendment of this kind at this stage, whatever air of injured innocence he may assume, the country will come to the conclusion that the object of the right hon. Gentleman is to prevent the possibility of time being spent on the Report stage, during which some of these matters might be put before the House and the country with even greater clearness than is possible at the present stage.

MR. CARSON (Dublin University)

I should like some information, before I make up my mind upon this point, as to whether any of the sums coming to the Local Taxation Account are sums of money coming from Ireland or Scotland. If not, I cannot see what need there is for these arguments at all. If none of this money comes from Ireland or Scotland, this proposal cannot possibly make any difference to either of those countries. I desire to be assured that none of this money is payable to the Local Taxation Account out of the probate duties from Ireland or from Scotland. I know that under the Act of 1888 there are separate accounts for Ireland and Scotland, and I always was under the impression that special provision was made for Scotch and Irish accounts, and if these are really separate accounts and no money comes to this fund either from Ireland or Scotland which is paid into the Local Taxation Account, I really do not see what we are arguing about.

SIR R. B. FINLAY

I am not sure that my right hon. friend was in the House when I referred to the section which deals with this question. The Local Taxation Account was established under the Local Government Act of 1888, which applies only to England and Wales. The 21st Section is the one which deals with the probate duty, to which the estate duty now corresponds. Under that section fourth-fifths of the probate duty has to be paid into the Bank of England to the Local Taxation Account, and that has to be done in the manner prescribed in the Act. That is the Local Taxation Account, and it is on that account that this Bill rests. The Probate Duties (Scotland and Ireland) Act was passed in 1888 also, and the first section of that Act provided for the opening of two perfectly separate and distinct accounts. I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for calling my attention to this matter, and it is perfectly clear that the Local Taxation Account relates to England, and to England alone. There are, therefore, three separate accounts. One is entitled the Local Taxation Account for England and Wales; the second is the Local Taxation (Scotland) Account for Scotland; and the third is the Local Taxation (Ireland) Account, which relates to Ireland. These two accounts for Scotland and Ireland are established under the Act of 1888, to which I have already referred. The matter is perfectly clear, and I have listened with very great surprise to the doubts expressed by the right hon. Gentleman opposite.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

I should like to know what are the suits that are going on every day against the Crown and the Commissioners of Inland Revenue. The Solicitor-General has just made a most extraordinary statement.

SIR R. B. FINLAY

The right hon. Gentleman must really forgive my interrupting him, but he is absolutely misinterpreting what I said. What I said was that the right hon. Gentleman cannot suggest that a court of law has authority to control the Crown in the conversion of the revenue. The court of law can decide as to whether different people should pay the revenue or not.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

This is a most extraordinary statement to come from a Tory Solicitor-General, who, I believe, is probably a Liberal Unionist. But the right hon. Gentleman has not answered one question, which will really throw more light upon this matter than anything he has yet said, The right hon. Gentleman opposite was responsible for the drafting of the Agricultural Land Rating Act of 1896, and we all recollect how the Minister for Agriculture of that day was supported by him throughout all the discussions in this House.

MR. LONG

I was not concerned in that measure.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

At any rate we all recollect the personal and active part which was taken by the Solicitor-General in that discussion. Now, his argument is that when you use the words "Local Taxation Account" there cannot be the smallest doubt that that means the English account and no other. If that be so, then why did the hon. and learned Gentleman put these words into the Act of 1896: The expression 'Local Taxation Account' has the same meaning as in the Local Government Act of 1888. If it is so clear—and he has expressed his surprise that I should have entertained any doubt on the matter—what doubt was there in his mind which made it necessary for him to explain those words "Local Taxation Account," when he believes, as he has just stated, that they are absolutely unnecessary? I will tell the right hon. Gentleman why he put in those words. He put them in because he knew that there was an ambiguity about the phrase "Local Taxation Account."

SIR R. B. FINLAY

I had nothing whatever to do with the drafting of the Act of 1896, although, as the right hon. Gentleman has stated, I took an active part in the discussion. I had nothing whatever to do with the drafting of the measure, and in my opinion these words are unnecessary.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

It is a very remarkable thing, because that Act was drafted by one of the ablest men, who is now, unfortunately, not in the service of the Government. But he was a man who would not be likely to put in any un- necessary words. But whoever put in those words knew that, as there were three Local Taxation Accounts, to use the words "Local Taxation Account" was to use an ambiguous phrase. That was the reason why the words were inserted, for it was thought necessary and proper to clearly define the general phrase "Local Taxation Account" as meaning the Local Taxation Account mentioned in the Act of 1888, which was the English Local Taxation Account. That is the reading of the Bill. It is perfectly obvious that this question might be raised in a court of law, and it is specified in the Agricultural Rating Act. In this Act, however, you have given no definition of the words, and, therefore, it will follow the general rule that as there is not the limitation which was put into the Act of 1896 it falls into the ordinary rule, that of an Act of Parliament which applies to all the countries alike; and there being three Local Taxation Accounts, and as you have made no specification as to which account is meant, as you thought it necessary to do in the Act of 1896, I certainly think that it is a reasonable argument to raise at this stage, and I would again ask the Government to reconsider their decision. When the Government were dealing with the Agricultural Rating Act these words were defined; and why is it not necessary to define them in this case? Why should the Government object to insert at the end of this Act the words, "this Act shall not apply to Ireland and Scotland," which would make the matter quite clear? It would be idle to pretend that the House of Commons and the country do not know why it is that you do not do this. What is the use of having all this argument upon this subject, for it simply amounts to this, that you refuse to do in 1899 what you did in 1896.

MR. LONG

I rise not only for the purpose of answering the questions which have been put to me, but also to make an appeal to the House. It is idle and unnecessary for the right hon. Gentleman opposite to say that the Government are resisting this Amendment because they do not desire to have a Report stage. If I may say so, with great respect, I think it is unnecessary to meet a statement of that kind at all. Our position is precisely the same position in which the right hon. Gentleman himself has repeatedly been placed, and if he comes into office he may find himself in that same position again. The Opposition hold that the words which have been proposed ought to be inserted. We hold, acting upon the best legal advice which we can command, that these words are superfluous and unnecessary. There is no mystery about this matter. The right hon. Gentleman asks why the definition was put in the Act of 1896 and is to be left out of the Act of 1899? I may say that in the original draft of the Bill those words were inserted, and they were afterwards taken out, but not for any evil or mysterious purpose. (Opposition cries of "What words?") Why, the words that it is now proposed to insert. There is absolutely nothing to conceal in this matter. The words were taken out of this Act because, as used in the Act of 1896, they were considered to be absolutely unnecessary and superfluous, and because it was thought that the words "Local Taxation Account" was a statutory and well-understood name of a fund which only applied to England; and, therefore, as this particular fund was not known by any other name, it was deemed unnecessary and undesirable to insert those words. There was no intention whatever of deceiving Parliament. The Ministers on this side of the House who are responsible, are satisfied that there is no necessity whatever for the insertion of those words, because the proposal, as it stands, conveys the necessary meaning; and because the Opposition take a different view we are accused of being unreasonable, and of desiring to avoid a Report stage simply because we will not allow hon. Gentlemen opposite to dictate to us what we shall do in regard to our own Bill. I think hon. Gentlemen opposite are really carrying their opposition to this Bill to a very unreasonable extent when they ask us to accept Amendments which are altogether unnecessary, and which the Opposition alone think are desirable. I do not think there is any reason for hon. Members to be alarmed at this proposal. My real object, however, in rising is that I desire to make an appeal to hon. Gentlemen opposite. We have a great many Amendments and new clauses still before us, and I have no doubt many hon. Members opposite desire to discuss them. I do, therefore, appeal to hon. Gentlemen opposite whether it is not now desirable that the Committee should be allowed to proceed at once to a Division upon this particular point. Every argument, I think, for and against has been fully and ably stated. The Government, at any rate, are certainly unconvinced, and they cannot agree to the introduction of this Amendment merely because it is harmless. Under these circumstances I think we might fight the point out now in the Division Lobby.

MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON

It appears to me that the confession contained in the speech which the right hon. Gentleman has just delivered has destroyed absolutely the only remnant of objection which one could possibly have to the insertion of these words. The right hon. Gentleman tells us now that these words were before him in the original draft. That is to say the distinguished draftsman upon whom reliance has always been placed by this House thought that these words were necessary.

MR. LONG

I beg the hon. Member's pardon, for the draftsman struck out the words himself.

MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON

That is another confession. We shall get at the real history of these words by-and-bye. I should like to know how the words came to be put in the draft at all if the draftsman himself took them out. I will go a step further and say that the great significance of this Debate is the stubborn resistance which the Government have offered to the words which were in the Bill originally, and which they have now confessed were harmless. I will not make any imputation as to the motive which induced them to offer this resistance, but I will go on and make a confession equally candid. I will admit, for my own part, that if the Government had not inserted those words in the Act of 1896, and if they had not defined these words in two previous Acts, I should not have thought it necessary to raise the question now; but when I find that in the Act of 1896 they thought it necessary to define the words by a special reference to a particular Act, and when four years afterwards they propose another Bill using the same words, but deliberately and for express purposes refuse to limit those words by inserting the same definition, there is certainly something very suspicious about the matter. The right hon. Gentleman him- self now admits that this Amendment is not unreasonable.

Mr. LONG

I admit nothing of the kind.

MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON

I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that, but I will not press the matter an inch further. My object was to make it perfectly certain, according to the common forms followed by draftsmen who prepare the Bills for this House, that this Bill relates to England only. I told the right hon. Gentleman previously that if he would allow that common form to be added to the Bill applying it to England only, I should make no particular point about the Local Taxation Account, and I should be content with his declaration that the Act was to extend to England only. Reference has been made to Ireland. The Irish Tithe Rent-charge Bill is now before the House, the Attorney-General for Ireland being responsible for it. That is a Bill in which it is made perfectly clear in the title and in every clause that you are dealing with the Irish Tithe Rent-charge in Ireland only, and there is not the faintest doubt about it. The Irish Attorney-General does not hesitate to use the ordinary common form, for the title clause runs: This Bill may be cited as the Irish Tithe Rent-charge Bill, and shall extend to Ireland only. I want corresponding words introduced into this Bill, and if the right hon. Gentleman will promise to accept a similar definition clause my objection to the vagueness of his proposal will be entirely removed, and I shall not even advise my friends to go to a Division. If the right hon. Gentleman does not do this I am afraid we shall have to put hon. members to the trouble of another Division.

MR. VICARY GIBBS (Hertfordshire, St. Albans)

As a hearty supporter of this Bill, may I be allowed to make a suggestion to my right hon, friend in the interests of expedition? We have already spent about two hours upon this point, and if the right hon. Gentleman does not wish to accept these words himself I desire to ask him if he will agree that they shall be introduced in another place; or, at any rate, will he promise to use the influence of the Government in that direction? It seems to me that that would meet the whole case. I do not myself agree that there is any real danger in this matter, and I merely rise in the hope that I may persuade my right hon. friend to get this difficulty out of the way.

MR. DILLON (Mayo, E.)

I think the course of this discussion has shown quite clearly that even experts differ in their interpretation of these Statutes. But is there any wonder that we should be alarmed at this particular thing when we come to consider what will be the course of procedure in carrying out the enactments contained in the provisions of this Bill? The course of procedure will be that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue will be pressed, to use the words of the hon. Member for King's Lynn, to "create an interception," and this thing will all be settled behind the scenes, and it will be months, and perhaps even more than a year, after the money has all been paid away before we shall be able to find out in what proportion the distribution of the money has been made. It is not an extraordinary demand to make that this I question should be put beyond the region of doubt and controversy, which it is quite easy to do. In their proposal the Government, instead of inserting a reference which would have left no possibility of doubt as to the course of procedure which was to be adopted by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, depart altogether from the precedent of previous Acts of Parliament. Therefore it is natural that we should be doubtful and a trifle nervous when we see this departure from the ordinary procedure in previous Acts, and it is ridiculous for the Minister in charge of the Bill and the Solicitor-General to laugh at the doubts which arise in our minds, and to endeavour to make out that there is no danger whatever. What we are afraid of is very simply stated. It may be that a court of law, after careful investigation, would decide this matter on the lines laid down by the Solicitor-General, but it may mean that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue may take a different view, and say that it was the meaning of the Statute that they should first of all take the Estate Duty Grant, which is made under that clause out of the £30,000 which is required by this Act, and then proceed to distribute that grant in the parishes which are laid down in the provisions of the Act, and which may be applied to England, Scotland, and Ireland. We have had to suffer more than once in the past from friendly calculations of this kind; and in this case it would not be a too friendly calculation, for the money does not get into the Treasury at all. The whole discussion is just another illustration of the inconvenience and objectionable character of the new finance— this system of interceptions of the taxpayers' money on its way to the Treasury. It must lead to the greatest possible misunderstanding and difficulty. At all events, it is perfectly clear that there

is danger of an ambiguity and nothing that has been said by the Government affords any solid reason against the removal of that ambiguity by the insertion of the words of the Amendment.

MR. WALTER LONG

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 250; Noes, 173. (Division List, No. 250.)

AYES.
Allsopp, Hon. George	Charrington, Spencer	Goschen, Rt Hn G. J. (St George'
Archdale, Edward Mervyn	Chelsea, Viscount	Goschen, George J. (Sussex)
Arnold, Alfred	Clarke, Sir Edward (Plymouth	Goulding, Edward Alfred
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.	Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Graham, Henry Robert
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Coddington, Sir William	Green, Walford D (Wednesbury
Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy	Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Greville, Hon. Ronald
Bailey, James (Walworth)	Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse	Gull, Sir Cameron
Baillie, James E. B. (Inverness	Colston, Chas. Ed. H. Athole	Gunter, Colonel
Baird, John George Alexander	Compton, Lord Alwyne	Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Balcarres, Lord	Cook, Fred, Lucas (Lambeth)	Halsey, Thomas Frederick
Baldwin, Alfred	Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W.	Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r	Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Ed. T. D.	Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.
Balfour, Rt. Hon. G.W.(Leeds	Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge	Hanson, Sir Reginald
Banbury, Frederick George	Cripps, Charles Alfred	Hardy, Laurence
Barnes, Frederic Gorell	Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)	Helder, Augustus
Barry, Rt Hn. A. H. S. (Hunts	Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)	Henderson, Alexander
Barry, Sir Francis T. (Winds'r	Cruddas, William Donaldson	Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter
Bartley, George C. T.	Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Hoare, Ed. Brodie (Hampstead)
Barton, Dunbar Plunket	Curzon, Viscount	Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)
Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin	Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Hobhouse, Henry
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Brist'l	Davies, Sir Horatio D.(Chatham	Holland, Hn. Lionel R. (Bow)
Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants	Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.	Hornby, Sir William Henry
Beckett, Ernest William	Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe	Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon	Howard, Joseph
Beresford, Lord Charles	Dorington, Sir John Edward	Howell, William Tudor
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Doughty, George	Hozier, Hn. James H. Cecil
Biddulph, Michael	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Hubbard, Hn. Evelyn
Bigwood, James	Doxford, William Theodore	Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies
Bill, Charles	Drucker, A.	Jebb, Richard Claverhouse
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.	Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick
Bond, Edward	Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart	Jenkins, Sir John Jones
Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme	Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas	Jolliffe, Hon. H. George
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Fardell, Sir T. George	Kemp, George
Boulnois, Edmund	Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward	Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H.
Bousfield, William Robert	Fergusson. Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc.	Kenyon, James
Brassey, Albert	Finch, George H.	Lafone, Alfred
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)
Brookfield, A. Montagu	Fisher, William Hayes	Lawson, John Grant (Yorks)
Bullard, Sir Harry	Fison, Frederick William	Lea, Sir Thomas (Londonderry
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Fitz Wygram, General Sir F.	Leighton, Stanley
Butcher, John George	Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)	Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset
Campbell, Rt Hn J.A.(Glasgow	Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)	Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn (Swan'a
Carson, Rt. Hon. Edward	Galloway, William Johnson	Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.
Cavendish, R. F. (N.Lancs.)	Gedge, Sydney	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire	Gibbons, J. Lloyd	Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lon.	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liver'l)
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)	Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)	Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.	Giles, Charles Tyrrell	Lorne, Marquess of
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.	Gilliat, John Saunders	Lowe, Francis William
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc.	Gordon, Hon. John Edward	Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry	Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon	Lubbock, Rt. Hn. Sir John
Lucas-Shadwell, William	Pierpoint, Robert	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred	Pilkington, R.(Lancs Newton)	Stock, James Henry
Macartney, W. G. Ellison	Platt-Higgins, Frederick	Strauss, Arthur
Macdona, John Cumming	Priestley, Sir W Overend (Edin.	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
MacIver, David (Liverpool)	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Maclean, James Mackenzie	Purvis, Robert	Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd U.)
M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edin. W.)	Quilter, Sir Cuthbert	Thorburn, Walter
Malcolm, Ian	Rankin, Sir James	Thornton, Percy M.
Martin, Richard Buddulph	Rentoul, James Alexander	Tollemache, Henry James
Melville, Beresford Valentine	Richardson, Sir Thos. (Hartlep'l	Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.	Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.	Tritton, Charles Ernest
Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas. J.	Ritche, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson	Valentia, Viscount
Milner, Sir Frederick George	Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)	Wanklyn, James Leslie
Milton, Viscount	Round, James	Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent)
Milward, Colonel Victor	Royds Clement Molyneux	Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Monk, Charles James	Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)	Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd
Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.)	Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)	Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy	Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert	Williams, J. Powell-(Brim.)
Moore, William (Antrim, N.)	Savory, Sir Joseph	Willox, Sir John Archibald
More, R. Jasper (Shropshire)	Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard	Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Momn'thsh.	Seely, Charles Hilton	Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath
Morrison, Walter	Seton-Karr, Henry	Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford	Sharpe, William Edward T.	Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Muntz, Philip A.	Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)	Wylie, Alexander
Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)	Simeon, Sir Barrington	Wyndham, George
Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)	Sinclair, Louis (Romford)	Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)	Smith, J. Parker (Lanarks.)	Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Myers, William Henry	Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)	Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Newark, Viscount	Spencer, Ernest	Younger, William
Nicol, Donald Ninian	Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)
Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford	Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)
O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens	Stanley, Sir H. M. (Lambeth)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Penn, John	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)	Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Percy, Earl	Stephens, Henry Charles
NOES.
Abraham, Wm. (Rhondda)	Davies, M. Vanghan-(Cardigan	Johnson-Ferguson, J. Edw.
Allan, William (Gateshead)	Davitt, Michael	Joicey, Sir James
Allison, Robert Andrew	Dewar, Arthur	Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea
Ambrose, Robert	Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles	Jones, William (Carnarvonsh
Asher, Alexander	Dillon, John	Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt Hn Sir U.
Ashton, Thomas Gair	Donelan, Captain A.	Kearley, Hudson E.
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.	Doogan, P. C.	Kilbride, Denis
Atherley-Jones, L.	Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)	Kinloch, Sir John G. Smyth
Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire)	Duckworth, James	Kitson, Sir James
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)	Dunn, Sir William	Labouchere, Henry.
Barlow, John Emmott	Ellis, John Edward	Lambert, George
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan)	Langley, Batty
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.	Evershed, Sydney	Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)
Billson, Alfred	Farquharson, Dr. Robert	Leng, Sir John
Birrell, Augustine	Fenwick, Charles	Leuty, Thomas Richmond
Blake, Edward	Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)	Lewis, John Herbert
Broadhurst, Henry	Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond	Lloyd-George, David
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson	Flynn, James Christopher	Logan, John William
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James	Foster, Sir Walter(Derby Co.)	Lough, Thomas
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Fowler, Rt. Hn. Sir Henry	Lyell, Sir Leonard
Burns, John	Goddard, Daniel Ford	Macaleese, Daniel
Burt, Thomas	Gold, Charles	M'Donnell, Dr. M. A. (Qn's C.)
Buxton, Sydney Charles	Gourley, Sir E. Temperley	MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
Caldwell, James	Griffith, Ellis J.	M'Crae, George
Cameron, Sir Chas. (Glasgow)	Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	M'Ewan, William
Cameron, Robert (Durham)	Haldane, Richard Burdon	M'Ghee, Richard
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm.	M'Kenna, Reginald
Carmichael, Sir T. D. Gibson-	Harwood, George	M'Leod, John
Causton, Richard Knight	Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale-	Maddison, Fred
Cawley, Frederick	Hedderwick, Thomas C. H.	Maden, John Henry
Clark, Dr. G. B.(Caithness-sh.	Hemphill, Rt. Hon. C.H.	Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe
Clough, Walter Owen	Hogan, James Francis	Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand
Colville, John	Holland, Wm. H. (York, W.R.	Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel)
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Horniman, Frederick John	Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen)
Crombie, John William	Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.	Morgan, W. P. (Merthyr)
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)	Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)	Morley, Chas. (Breconshire)
Dalziel, James Henry	Jacoby, James Alfred	Morley, Rt. Hn. J.(Montrose)

Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)	Rickett, J. Compton	Wallace, Robert
Moss, Samuel	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)	Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.
Moulton, John Fletcher	Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)	Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.
Norton, Captain Cecil W.	Robson, William Snowdon	Weir, James Galloway
Nussey, Thomas Willans	Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)	Whiteley, George (Stockport)
O'Brien, James F. C. (Cork)	Schwann, Charles E.	Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.)	Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)	Williams, J. Carvell (Notts.)
O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)	Wills, Sir William Henry
Oldroyd, Mark	Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B)	Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull)
O'Malley, William	Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfars.)	Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.
Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham)	Smith, Samuel (Flint)	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Palmer, G. W. (Reading)	Soames, Arthur Wellesley	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Paulton, James Mellor	Souttar, Robinson	Wilson, John (Govan)
Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)	Spicer, Albert	Wilson, Jos. H. (Middlesbro')
Pickard, Benjamin	Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.	Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf.
Pickersgill, Edward Hare	Steadman, William Charles	Woods, Samuel
Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lncs. S W)	Stevenson, Francis S.	Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Power, Patrick Joseph	Stuart, James (Shoreditch)	Yoxall, James Henry
Price, Robert John	Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Reckitt, Harold James	Thomas, Alf. (Glamorgan, E.)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Redmond, Jn. E. (Waterford)	Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr	Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur
Richardson, J. (Durham, S.E.	Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Question put accordingly, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 174; Noes, 250. (Division List, No. 251.)

AYES.
Abraham, W. (Rhondda)	Ellis, John Edward	Logan, John William
Allan, W. (Gateshead)	Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan)	Lough, Thomas
Allison, Robert Andrew	Evershed, Sydney	Lyell, Sir Leonard
Ambrose, Robert	Farquharson, Dr. Robert	Macaleese, Daniel
Asher, Alexander	Fenwick, Charles	MacDonnell, Dr. (Queen's Co
Ashton, Thomas Gair	Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)	MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
Asquith, Rt. Hon. H. Henry	Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond	M'Crae, George
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)	Flynn James Christopher	M'Dermott, Patrick
Barlow, John Emmott	Foster, Sir Walter(Derby Co.)	M'Ewan William
Bayley, T. (Derbyshire)	Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	M'Ghee, Richard
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.	Goddard, Daniel Ford	M'Leod, John
Billson, Alfred	Gold, Charles	Maddison, Fred.
Birrell, Augustine	Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley	Maden, John Henry
Blake, Edward	Griffith, Ellis J.	Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe.
Broadhurst, Henry	Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton	Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand
Brunner, Sir J. Tomlinson	Haldane, Richard Burdon	Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel)
Bryce, Right Hon. James	Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir W.	Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Buchanan, T. Ryburn	Harwood, George	Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthr.
Burns, John	Hayne, Rt Hn. Charles Seale-	Morley, Charles (Breconshire)
Burt, Thomas	Hedderwick, Thomas C. H.	Morley, Rt. Hn. J. (Montrose)
Buxton, Sydney Charles	Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H.	Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)
Caldwell, James	Hogan, James Francis	Moss, Samuel
Cameron, Sir C. (Glasgow)	Holland, W. H. (York, W. R.)	Moulton, John Fletcher
Cameron, Robert (Durham)	Horniman, Frederick John
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.	Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Carmichael, Sir T. D. Gibson-	Hutton Alfred E. (Morley)	Nussey, Thomas Willans
Causton, Richard Knight	Jacoby, James Alfred	O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)
Cawley, Frederick	Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez E.	O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Clough, Walter Owen	Joicey, Sir James	O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal)
Colville, John	Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea)	O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)	O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Crombie, John William	Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt Hn Sir U.	Oldroyd, Mark
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)	Kearley, Hudson E.	O'Malley, William
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)	Kilbride, Denis
Dalziel, James Henry	Kinloch, Sir J. G. Smyth	Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham)
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan	Kitson, Sir James	Palmer, George Wm.(Reading)
Davitt, Michael	Labouchere, Henry	Paulton, James Mellor
Dewar, Arthur	Lambert, George	Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles	Langley, Batty	Pickard, Benjamin
Dillon, John	Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland)	Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Donelan, Captain A.	Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)	Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs, S W
Doogan, P. C.	Leng, Sir John	Power, Patrick Joseph
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)	Leuty, Thomas Richmond	Price, Robert John
Duckworth, James	Lewis, John Herbert	Reckitt, Harold James
Dunn, Sir William	Lloyd-George, David	Redmond, John E.(Waterford)
Richardson, J. (Durham, S.E.)	Steadman, William Charles	Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull)
Rickett, J. Compton	Stevenson, Francis S.	Wilson, H. J. (York, W.R.)
Roberts, John H. (Denbighsh.	Stuart, James (Shoreditch)	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)	Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Robson, William Snowdon	Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)	Wilson, John (Govan)
Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)	Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)	Wilson, J.H. (Middlesbrough)
Schwann, Charles E.	Trevelyan, Charles Philips	Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf.
Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)	Wallace, Robert	Woods, Samuel
Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)	Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)	Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.)	Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.	Yoxall, James Henry
Smith, Samuel (Flint)	Weir, James Galloway
Soames, Arthur Wellesley	Whiteley, George (Southport)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Souttar, Robinson	Whittaker, Thomas Palmer	Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur.
Spicer, Albert	Williams, J. Carvell (Notts.)
Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.	Wills, Sir William Henry
NOES.
Allsopp, Hon. George	Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Hanson, Sir Reginald
Archdale, Edward Mervyn	Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse	Hardy, Laurence
Arnold, Alfred	Colston, Chas. Edw. H.Athole	Heaton, John Henniker
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.	Compton, Lord Alwyne	Helder, Augustus
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)	Henderson, Alexander
Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy	Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W.	Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter
Baillie, J. E. B. (Inverness)	Cotton-Jodrell,Col. Edw. T.D.	Hoare, Edw Brodie (Hampstead
Baird, John George Alexander	Cox,Irwin Edward Bainbridge	Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)
Balcarres, Lord	Cripps, Charles Alfred	Hobhouse, Henry
Baldwin, Alfred	Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)	Holland, Hon. Lionel R. (Bow)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)	Cruddas, William Donaldson	Hornby, Sir William Henry
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G.W. (Leeds)	Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Banbury, Frederick George	Curzon, Viscount	Howard, Joseph
Barnes, Frederic Gorell	Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Howell, William Tudor
Barry, Rt Hn A. H Smith-(Hunts	Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chath'm	Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil
Barry, Sir F. T. (Windsor)	Denny, Colonel	Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn
Bartley, George C. T.	Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.	Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies
Barton, Dunbar Plunket	Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Jebb, Richard Claverhouse
Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin	Dorington, Sir John Edward	Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol)	Doughty, George	Jenkins, Sir John Jones
Beach, W. W. B. (Hants)	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Jolliffe, Hon. H. George
Beckett, Ernest William	Doxford, William Theodore	Kemp, George
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe	Drucker, A.	Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.
Beresford, Lord Charles	Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.	Kenyon, James
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart	Kimber, Henry
Biddulph, Michael	Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas	Lafone, Alfred
Bigwood, James	Fardell, Sir T. George	Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)
Bill, Charles	Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward	Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir, J. (Manc'r	Leighton, Stanley
Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme	Finch, George H.	Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'ns'a
Boulnois, Edmund	Fisher, William Hayes	Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.
Bousfield, William Robert	Fison, Frederick William	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Brassey, Albert	Fitz Wygram, General Sir F.	Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)	Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverpool)
Brookfield, A. Montagu	Galloway, William Johnson	Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller
Bullard, Sir Harry	Gedge, Sydney	Lorne, Marquis of
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Gibbons, J. Lloyd	Lowe, Francis William
Butcher, John George	Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H (City of Lond)	Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Campbell, Rt Hn J. A. (Glasgow)	Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)	Lubbock, Rt. Hon. Sir John
Carson, Rt. Hon. Edward	Giles, Charles Tyrrell	Lucas-Shadwell, William
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)	Gilliat, John Saunders	Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred
Cavendish,V. C. W. (Derbysh.)	Gordon, Hon. John Edward	Macartney, W. G. Ellison
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon	Macdona, John Cumming
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)	Goschen, Rt Hn G. J (St George's	MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.	Goschen, George J. (Sussex)	Maclean, James Mackenzie
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)	Goulding, Edward Alfred	M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W
Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r)	Graham, Henry Robert	Malcolm, Ian
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry	Green, Walford D (Wednesbury	Martin, Richard Biddulph
Charrington, Spencer	Greville, Hon. Ronald	Melville, Beresford Valentine
Chelsea, Viscount	Gull, Sir Cameron	Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Clare, Octavius Leigh	Gurdon, Sir William Brampton	Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas. J.
Clarke, Sir Edward (Plymouth)	Hall, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles	Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Halsey, Thomas Frederick	Milner, Sir Frederick George
Coddington, Sir William	Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George	Milton, Viscount
Coghill, Douglas Harry	Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.	Milward, Colonel Victor

Monk, Charles James	Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlepool)	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants)	Ridley, Rt. Hon Sir Matthew W	Talbot, Rt Hn J. G. (Oxford Uni.
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy	Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson	Thorburn, Walter
Moore, William (Antrim, N.)	Robertson, Herbt. (Hackney)	Thornton, Percy M.
More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)	Round, James	Tollemache, Henry James
Morgan, Hn. F. (Monmouthsh.)	Royds, Clement Molyneux	Tomlinson, Wm. Ed. Murray
Morrison, Walter	Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)	Tritton, Charles Ernest
Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford	Samuel, H. S. (Limehouse)	Valentia, Viscount
Muntz, Philip A.	Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert	Wanklyn, James Leslie
Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)	Savory, Sir Joseph	Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent)
Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)	Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard	Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath)	Seely, Charles Hilton	Wharton, Rt. Hon. J. Lloyd
Myers, William Henry	Seton-Karr, Henry	Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Newark, Viscount	Sharpe, William Edward T.	Williams, Jos. Powell-(Birm.
Nicol, Donald Ninian	Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)	Willox, Sir John Archibald
Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford	Simeon, Sir Barrington	Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
O'Neill, Hon. Robt. Torrens	Sinclair, Louis (Romford)	Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Penn, John	Smith, J. Parker (Lanarks.)	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Percy, Earl	Smith, Hon. W.F.D.(Strand)	Wylie, Alexander
Pierpoint, Robert	Spencer, Ernest	Wyndham, George
Pilkington, R. (Lancs Newton)	Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk	Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Platt-Higgins, Frederick	Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)	Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp	Stanley, Sir H. M.(Lambeth)	Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Priestley, Sir W. Overend (Edin	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)	Younger, William
Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward	Stephens, Henry Charles
Purvis, Robert	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Quilter, Sir Cuthbert	Stock, James Henry	Sir William Walrond and Mr Anstruther
Rankin, Sir James	Strauss, Arthur
Rentoul, James Alexander	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Question put, and agreed to.

* MR. J. H. ROBERTS (Denbighshire, W.)

I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name to leave out Subsection (a). I do not feel that there is any reason whatever, after what has been said, why that sub-section should appear in the Bill at all. The meaning of the Estate Duty Grant is perfectly clear, and I do not think any object can be served by the insertion of the words contained in the sub-section. I therefore move that the sub-section be omitted.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 14, to leave out Sub-section (a)."—(Mr. J. H. Roberts.)

Question proposed, "That Sub-section (a) stand part of the clause."

SIR R. B. FINLAY

The Government cannot accept the Amendment, because we regard the words as absolutely necessary

MR. LLOYD - GEORGE (Carnarvon, etc.)

I do not see that these words are necessary at all. There is only one Estate Duty Grant, and the Commissioners can, without the aid of any interpretation clause, see exactly what the meaning is.

MR. WARNER

I have a similar Amendment on the Paper, and I think, therefore, I ought to state why I put it there. It seems to me that the simplest way would have been not to have a separate sub-section in the definition clause of the Bill, but simply to have said, "Given under Section 19 of the Finance Act, 1894" at the end of Clause I, It only makes the Bill more difficult for the layman to understand to retain the words as they stand now. I certainly do not see the necessity for this subsection, and I shall certainly support my hon. friend's Amendment.

* MR. J. H. ROBERTS

The Amendment which I wish to move is to leave out from "curacies" in Clause 2, Section 2, page 1, line 18, to end of sub-section. The effect of my Amendment will be to withdraw from the operation of this Bill two or three distinct classes of benefices—first, parochial chapelries; secondly, chapelries or districts belonging, or reputed to belong, or annexed, or reputed to be annexed, to any church or chapel; and, thirdly, districts formed for ecclesiastical purposes by statute. I think there is by this time no doubt that whatever the attitude of the Government as to this Bill may be, the real reason for its introduction is the peculiar position of the clergy in regard to their incomes. It is on account of the smallness of their incomes that this Bill has been introduced. That this Bill is only a temporary Bill—to last for two and a half years—is proof, of that contention, and the reading of the evidence placed before the Royal Commission on the subject confirms that view in the most ample manner. I think I am therefore justified in laying down that this Bill is intended for the relief of those clergy in the country who depend entirely upon the proceeds of the tithe rent-charge, and my Amendment stands or falls upon that point, namely, whether they derive their income substantially from that source or not. I have taken the trouble to go through an interesting Return upon this subject which was furnished to this House in 1891. It gives full information as to the districts formed for ecclesiastical purposes during the years 1880 and 1890. I am not going to weary the Committee with statistics and figures from this Return, but I should like to point out that any hon. Member may find out for himself, if he studies this Return, that, so far as the majority of these districts are concerned, the tithe rent-charge assigned to them is of the smallest dimensions. When the income of the clergy from endowment is, on the average, from £300 to £500, and when the tithe rent-charge is only £10, £20, or £30, is it just or right that the same relief in regard to the rating should be applied? I further wish to call attention to one phrase in this section which seems to me to require some explanation from the right hon. Gentleman opposite. I should like to know what is the meaning of the phrase "and chapelries or districts belonging or reputed to belong, or annexed, or reputed to be annexed, to any church or chapel." It passes my comprehension to understand how it is desirable or necessary to introduce into a section of this kind words of that character.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 18, to leave out from the word 'curacies,' to the end of paragraph (b)."—(Mr. J. H. Roberts.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

SIR R. B. FINLAY

I hope the Committee will retain these words. The Amendment moved by the hon. Gentleman is really in substance an attempt to undo a great part of what the Committee has already decided upon under the first clause—namely, that certain relief shall be given in the case of tithe rent-charge attached to benefices. The Amendment will, in fact, eviscerate that clause.

MR. ASQUITH (Fife, E.)

Will the Solicitor-General explain the concluding words of the section, relating to benefices under the patronage of the Crown?

SIR R. B. FINLAY

These words are merely put in on the principle that an Act of Parliament does not apply to the Crown unless the Crown is expressly mentioned.

MR. LEWIS (Flint Boroughs)

I rise for the purpose of drawing the attention of the Solicitor-General to the fact that he has not replied to the most important part of the case put forward by my hon. friend. I would especially draw his attention to the words "and districts formed for ecclesiastical purposes by virtue of statutory authority." The question was put earlier in this Debate to the Government whether the Ecclesiastical Commissioners were or were not to derive any benefit under this Bill. I remember the question being put very well, and I remember the answer given by the right hon. Gentleman. It was denied that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners were to derive any benefit whatever under this Bill. What have the Ecclesiastical Commissioners been doing, and what are they doing continually? They are forming new districts for ecclesiastical purposes, and those districts are being formed by virtue of statutory authority. But what will happen in the future with regard to those districts? They will simply have a further endowment of 10 per cent. paid out of the funds of the nation, in addition to the endowment which they will get if they annex any tithe in their possession to the benefice. I daresay hon. Gentlemen opposite would like to have a further endowment of the Church of England in that particular way.

SIR R. B. FINLAY

Districts are, of course, formed in the way mentioned by the hon. Member, and they may remain districts for some time without becoming parishes. If they have tithes annexed to them and endowments derived from them, then it is proper that the benefits of this provision should be extended to such cases.

MR. SAMUEL EVANS (Glamorganshire, Mid.)

I object to the words in question, because they will enable the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to attach a very large extent of tithe rent-charge to new districts, which they will undoubtedly form as soon as they possibly can.

MR. LAMBERT

I do not wish to detain the Committee for more than a moment, but there is in line 20 a phrase which is not quite clear to the lay mind. I would like to ask the meaning of the word "reputed" to belong. It is used in two distinct places—"Chapelries or districts belonging, or reputed to belong, or annexed or reputed to be annexed to any church or chapel." If a thing belongs to any church or chapel it does belong to it, but surely you need not bring in under this Bill any thing "reputed" to belong.

SIR R. B. FINLAY

A question might arise as to the precise extent of the Common Law right, and this is intended to make the matter quite clear.

MR. HUMPHREYS - OWEN (Montgomery)

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what is the difference between "belonging to" and "annexed to"?

SIR R. B. FINLAY

"Belonging to" means that which was given to the benefice when it was formed, "annexed to" that which was given afterwards.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

The interpretation put upon this clause by the Solicitor-General raises a very important point. It is to be extended to chapelries belonging to or reputed to belong to any church or chapel. A new district is formed and a chapel is endowed, that is, a certain sum is put aside for its use, and then comes the question as to how that money is going to be invested. The trustees come to the conclusion that they will invest the money in tithe rent-charge in the hands of the lay impropriator. The question is, is such a transaction within the Act? If it is, it raises a most important point. Suppose you purchase the tithe rent-charge 100 miles away; directly you do so that tithe rent-charge is equal to a £50 endowment to the chapel, which is equivalent to adding £2,000 to the endowment. I should like to know if I am correct in my interpretation of the clause. Instead of the whole of the money being handed over to the church, it might be divided between the church and the lay impropriator. The lay impropriator might say, "You benefit to the extent of £50 a year, therefore I am going to put another £1,000 on to the price."

SIR R. B. FINLAY

I doubt whether that question is relevant to the matter before the House, but I will answer it nevertheless. If a certain sum of money is invested for the endowment of an existing vicarage or of a new district, it is not subject to rates. The whole injustice is this, that, where a benefice is endowed with tithes, rates are charged. If you have £1,000 which you wish to give to a church and it is invested in Consols or some other stock, no rates are charged. Therefore nothing is gained by buying tithe rent-charge from the lay impropriator. The same value is obtained, only it did not become subject to rates. The amount obtained is not altered by changing the form of investment. I think the question has a very remote reference to the subject before us.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

Then I understand the answer is in the affirmative.

SIR R. B. FINLAY

The hon. and learned Member understands that perfectly well.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

I am glad to have that admission. I think it raises a very important point. The hon. Gentleman does not challenge the argument I laid down, which is that a sum of money may be collected in Liverpool or Newcastle; if, instead of investing it in Consols, you invest it in tithes in a parish 300 miles away, you can arrange a deal with the lay impropriator by which you can give £3,000 for a thing only worth £2,000, and say, we do not mind giving you the £1,000 because we make £1,000, and the money after all will come out of the ratepayers. This is done under a Bill the object of which is right and justice. This measure will lend itself to transactions little short of fraudulent.

MR. HEDDERWICK (Wick Burghs)

If the Solicitor-General is correct, will not this Bill not only have the effect of relieving the clerical tithe-owners of half their rate, but increasing the value of tithes generally?

* THE CHAIRMAN

I do not see how that arises on the question of the definition of the words proposed to be left out.

MR. LEWIS

I wish to put a specific instance which arises on the Amendment of my hon. friend. I have in my mind a parish with a chapelry endowed with £10,000 by the mother of the lay impropriator. I wish to know whether it is possible and how the Government proposes to meet a case in which by arrangement between the parties the lay tithe may be made free to the extent of one-half of the rates. The Government have admitted over and over again that the lay tithes have been omitted from the Bill because they could not, in justice, be included in it; but there are cases in which the lay tithe-owners will be largely benefited under this Bill, and nothing can be done to prevent it.

* THE CHAIRMAN

I do not see that the case the hon. Gentleman refers to would be met by the omission of the words now before the Committee.

MR. LEWIS

If these words are omitted the specific transaction to which I referred would not be possible under the Bill. I want to know what guarantee there is that justice will be done by the action the Government are taking.

* THE CHAIRMAN

The endowment to which the hon. Member referred can be made applicable to special curacies, which has already been passed.

MR. ASQUITH

Before you put the Question, Sir, I should like to know whether you rule that upon the Amendment of my hon. friend we are not entitled to discuss the effect which this definition clause will have if passed in its present shape on what I might call future annexations of tithe rent-charge, which do not at present exist. In my judgment it is a question of great importance, but I do not want to be out of order in discussing it.

* THE CHAIRMAN

I think the matter has already been discussed. It was discussed on an Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Merthyr to insert the words "attached to," and it was admitted that "attached to" would cover future cases.

MR. D. A. THOMAS

Upon a point of order, Sir, I moved the Amendment, but I never raised that point at all, Sir.

* THE CHAIRMAN

It is perfectly true that the hon. Member did not raise the point, but other hon. Members did, and discussed it for a considerable period. The matter was fully gone into

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

Would it not be in order to discuss the point in connection with the endowment of chapelries which are freshly endowed? I propose to confine myself to that point.

* THE CHAIRMAN

The difficulty in the way of the hon. Member is that it was discussed in the previous Amendment to which I referred.

MR. LLOYD - GEORGE

I do not understand you to rule, Sir, that it is absolutely out of order, though I quite see the difficulty; but it is really a most important point, and one upon which I desire to have your ruling particularly.

* THE CHAIRMAN

In my opinion the case has been discussed and decided when the Committee decided that the words "attached to" should remain in the Bill. I do not think the question can be raised again on this Amendment.

MR. D. A. THOMAS

You have referred, Sir, to the Amendment I moved on Monday last, but I did not raise this point, and it does seem a little hard upon me that, because some discussion which was evidently out of order took place on that occasion, I should now be said to have raised the discussion.

* THE CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member chose to raise the same point by moving his Amendment, and there was consider- able discussion on the point If my recollection serves me correctly, there was a long discussion on it.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 228; Noes, 152. (Division List, No. 252.)

AYES.
Allsopp, Hon. George	Dorington, Sir John Edward	Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset
Archdale, Edward Mervyn	Doughty, George	Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swans'a
Arnold, Alfred	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Lockwood, Lieut. Col. A. R.
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Doxford, William Theodore	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy	Drucker, A.	Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)
Baillie, James E. B.(Inverness	Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.	Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverpool)
Balcarres, Lord	Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas	Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller
Baldwin, Alfred	Fardell, Sir T. George	Lorne, Marquess of
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r	Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.	Lowe, Francis William
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds	Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir, J. (M'nc'r	Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Banbury, Frederick George	Finch, George H.	Lucas-Shadwell, William
Barnes, Frederic Gorell	Finlay, Sir R. Bannatyne	Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred
Barry, R. Hn. A. H. Smith-(Hnt	Firbank, Joseph Thomas	Macartney, W. G. Ellison
Barry, Sir Francis T. (Winds'r	Fisher, William Hayes	MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Bartley, George C. T.	Fison, Frederick William	Maclean, James Mackenzie
Barton, Dunbar Plunket	FitzWygram, General Sir F.	M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinb'gh,W.
Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin	Flower, Ernest	Malcolm, Ian
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol	Galloway, William Johnson	Melville, Beresford Valentine
Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants	Gibbons, J. Lloyd	Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Beckett, Ernest William	Gibbs, Hon. V. (St. Albans)	Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas. J.
Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull	Giles, Charles Tyrrell	Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe	Gilliat, John Saunders	Milner, Sir Frederick George
Beresford, Lord Charles	Godson, Sir A. Frederick	Milton, Viscount
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Gordon, Hon. John Edward	Milward, Colonel Victor
Biddulph, Michael	Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon	Monk, Charles James
Bigwood, James	Goschen, Rt Hn G. J (St George's	Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Bill, Charles	Goschen, G. J. (Sussex)	Moore, William (Antrim, N.)
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Goulding, Edward Alfred	More, Robt. Jasper (Shopshire)
Bond, Edward	Graham, Henry Robert	Morgan, Hn, Fred (Monm'thsh.
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)	Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford
Bousfield, William Robert	Gretton, John	Muntz, Philip A.
Bowles, T. G. (King's Lynn)	Greville, Hon. Ronald	Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Gull, Sir Cameron	Murray, Charles J.(Coventry)
Brookfield, A. Montagu	Gunter, Colonel	Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Bullard, Sir Harry	Hall, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles	Newark, Viscount
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Halsey, Thomas Frederick	Nicol, Donald Ninian
Butcher, John George	Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G.	O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Carson, Rt. Hon. Edward	Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert W.	Penn, John
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)	Hanson, Sir Reginald	Percy, Earl
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derby.)	Hardy, Laurence.	Pierpoint, Robert
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Heaton, John Henniker	Pilkington, R. (Lancs. Newton)
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)	Helder, Augustus	Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.	Henderson, Alexander	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)	Hermon-Hodge, R. Trotter	Priestley, Sir W. O. (Edin.)
Chamberlain, J. A. (Wor'cr.)	Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry	Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)	Purvis, Robert
Charrington, Spencer	Hobhouse, Henry	Quilter, Sir Cuthbert
Chelsea, Viscount	Holland, Hn. Lionel R. (Bow)	Rankin, Sir James
Clarke, Sir Ed. (Plymouth)	Hornby, Sir William Henry	Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlepool)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos H. A. E.	Howard, Joseph	Ridley, Rt Hon Sir Matthew W.
Coddington, Sir William	Howell, William Tudor	Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson
Coghill, Douglas Harry	Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn	Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-	Round, James
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse	Jebb, Richard Claverhouse	Royds, Clement Molyneux
Compton, Lord Alwyne	Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick	Russell, T. W.(Tyrone)
Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)	Kemp, George	Savory, Sir Joseph
Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley, W	Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir J. H.	Seely, Charles Hilton
Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge	Kenyon, James	Seton-Karr, Henry
Cripps, Charles Alfred	Kimber, Henry	Sharpe, William Edward T.
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)	King, Sir Henry Seymour	Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)
Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Lafore, Alfred	Simeon, Sir Barrington
Curzon, Viscount	Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverp'l)	Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks)
Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)	Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand
Davies, Sir Hon. D. (Chatham	Lea, Sir Thomas (Lodonderry	Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)
Denny, Colonel	Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. E. H.	Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.	Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)	Stanley, Sir H. M. (Lambeth)
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Leighton, Stanley	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Stock, James Henry	Tritton, Charles Ernest	Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Strauss, Arthur	Valentia, Viscount	Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley	Wanklyn, James Leslie	Wylie, Alexander
Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier	Warde, Lieut.-Col. C.E.(Kent	Wyndham, George
Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)	Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.	Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G. (Ox'd Univ.	Whitmore, Charles Algernon	Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Thorburn, Walter	Williams, J. Powell-(Birm'g'm.	Younger, William
Thornton, Percy M.	Willox, Sir John Archibald	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Tollemache, Henry James	Wilson, John (Falkirk)	Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Tomlinson, Wm. Ed. Murray	Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
NOES.
Abraham William (Rhondda)	Gold, Charles	Oldroyd, Mark
Allan, William (Gateshead)	Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley	O'Malley, William
Allison, Robert Andrew	Griffith, Ellis J.	Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham)
Ambrose, Robert	Gurdon, Sir William Brampton	Palmer, Geo. Wm. (Reading)
Asher, Alexander	Haldane, Richard Burdon	Paulton, James Mellor
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.	Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm.	Pease, Jos. A. (Northumb.)
Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire)	Harwood, George	Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)	Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-	Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs, S W
Barlow, John Emmott	Hedderwick, Thomas Charles H	Power, Patrick Joseph
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.	Price, Robert John
Beaumont, Wentworth, C. B.	Holland, Wm. H. (York, W. R.)	Priestley, Briggs (Yorks.)
Billson, Alfred	Horniman, Frederick John	Randell, David
Blake, Edward	Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.	Reckitt, Harold James
Bolton, Thomas Dolling	Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)	Richardson, J. (Durham, S. E.
Broadhurst, Henry	Jacoby, James Alfred	Robertson, E. (Dundee)
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson	Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez E.	Robson, W. Snowdon
Bryce, Right Hon. James	Joicey, Sir James	Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire	Schwann, Charles E.
Burns, John	Kearley, Hudson, E.	Scott, C. Prestwich (Leigh)
Buxton, Sydney Charles	Kilbride, Denis	Shaw, C. E. (Stafford)
Caldwell, James	Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth	Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Cameron, Sir Chas.(Glasgow)	Kitson, Sir James	Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Labouchere, Henry	Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Causton, Richard Knight	Lambert, George	Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Cawley, Frederick	Lawson Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land	Souttar, Robinson
Clough, Walter Owen	Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)	Spicer, Albert
Colville, John	Leng, Sir John	Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Leuty, Thomas Richmond	Steadman, William Charles
Crilly, Daniel	Lewis, John Herbert	Stevenson, Francis S.
Crombie, John William	Logan, John William	Stuart, James (Shoreditch)
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)	Lough, Thomas	Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)	MacAleese, Daniel	Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Dalziel, James Henry	M'Arthur, William(Cornwall)	Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan	M'Crae, George	Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles	M'Dermott, Patrick	Wallace, Robert
Dillon, John	M'Ewan, William	Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds,S.)
Donelan, Captain A.	M'Ghee, Richard	Warner, Thomas C. T.
Doogan, P. C.	M'Leod, John	Weir, James Galloway
Duckworth, James	Maddison, Fred	Whiteley, George (Stockport)
Dunn, Sir William	Maden, John Henry	Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)	Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel)	Williams, John C. (Notts.)
Evans, Sir Francis H. (South'ton	Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)	Wilson, H. J. (York, W. R.)
Evershed, Sydney	Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merth'r	Wilson, J.(Durham, Mid.)
Farquharson, Dr. Robert	Morley, Charles (Breconshire)	Wilson, John (Govan)
Fenwick, Charles	Morley, Rt. Hon. J. (Montrose)	Woodhouse, Sir. J. T. (Huddsfld)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)	Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)	Woods, Samuel
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond	Moss, Samuel	Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Flynn, James Christopher	Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Yoxall, James Henry
Foster, Sir Walter(Derby Co.)	Nussey, Thomas Willans
Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert J.	O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.)	Mr. Herbert Roberts and Mr. Lloyd-George.
Goddard, Daniel Ford	T. P. O'Connor, (Liverpool)

MR. D. A. THOMAS

I quite recognise that the second part of the Amendment I have on the Paper is not now in order, but the first part is. The object of that part is to limit as far as possible the extent of the Bill. The Committee have already decided that incumbents presented to a living after the passing of the Act should receive the benefit, but they have not yet decided or discussed whether those who have been recently presented should receive the benefit of the Bill. I should like to limit it to those who have been presented to livings since the passing of the Agricultural Rating Act, 1896, and before the passing of the present Act. In my mind they are the only ones who can have had their expectations aroused of having half their rates paid. There can be no kind of sense of grievance with the rest, and therefore I beg to move this Amendment.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 25, to leave out paragraph (c) of Sub-section 1, and insert the words, 'The expression "owner," means the incumbent in receipt of the tithe rent-charge at the date of the passing of this Act.'"—(Mr. David Thomas.)

Question proposed, "That paragraph (c), of Sub-section 1, stand part of the clause."

MR. LONG

I hope the hon. Gentleman does not mean seriously to press this Amendment; if he does, I hope the Committee will reject it, because it proposes to reverse the decisions of other stages of the proceedings. We are asked to limit the clause to incumbents now in possession of their benefices; but if this Act comes into force the same rule ought to apply to the new incumbent as to the old.

MR. LEWIS

I cannot allow this opportunity to go by without protesting against the "legislation by reference" that we see in this particular sub-section. We are told that the expressions "owner of tithe rent-charge" and "tithe rent-charge" have the same meanings respectively as in the Tithe Act of 1891. When that Act is turned up it is found that a reference is made to the Tithe Act of 1836, so that to find out the meaning of these terms the Act of 1836 has to be consulted. This is a question in which not only lawyers but laymen are becoming increasingly concerned. If the Government introduce measures of this kind they ought to make them plain and simple to the ordinary intelligence. The country lawyer has to have his shelves stacked with volumes of old statutes, or else he is unable to explain to his clients what the meaning of such a section is. The very least the Government could have done would have been to refer people, not to the Act of 1891, but to the Act of 1836. I feel so strongly upon this subject that unless I receive a satisfactory explanation why the clause has been so drawn I shall feel compelled to go to a Division.

MR. SAMUEL EVANS

As a matter of fact, in the Tithe Act of 1891, Sec. 9, you are referred not merely to the Tithe Act of 1836 but to the Extraordinary Tithe Redemption Act of 1836, and to the Tithe Act of 1860, so that you have to refer to four Acts of Parliament before you can get a definition. This kind of drafting ought to come to an end. It lends some colour to the allegation which is sometimes made by people who do not know any better that Acts of Parliament are drafted in an obscure way for the benefit of the lawyers. You can explain in a few plain words what is meant by these terms, but instead of that a person is referred from Act of Parliament to Act of Parliament, and he is a very wise man who after consulting them can come to any definite conclusion at all. With regard to the substance of the Amendment, I exonerate the mover entirely from having supported an Amendment of mine which was the converse of this; I believe he voted against it. But we cut the Bill into two parts—those referring to past and future. If we could get rid of the benefits proposed to be given to those who lived in the past we should be very pleased, but if we could cut off the benefits from those who live in the future we should be, perhaps, still more pleased. I shall, therefore, with a perfectly clear conscience support the Amendment.

MR. ELLIS J. GRIFFITH

As far as I understand, the only reason why we are asked to support this Bill at all is in order to do some sort of justice to these people who have suffered so much in the past. If that is so, there is no reason whatever why we should confer any benefits upon future incumbents. They will then know perfectly well that they will not get any benefit, and therefore they will have no grievance on the ground that they are under a disadvantage as compared with those appointed before the passing of the Act. Consequently I shall vote for the Amendment.

SIR J. T. BRUNNER (Cheshire, Northwich)

The desire to have Acts of Parliament clear to the common understanding is one that I hold very dear indeed. I am delighted to have the opportunity of appealing once more to Her Majesty's Government to take the advice which I have so often said has been given to them by the noble Lord at the head of the Government. Lord Salisbury has declared that the method of drafting Acts of Parliament was extremely repugnant to him, and he has made a promise, which I hope he will some day fulfil, of bringing in a Bill which should put an end to this mischief. Year after year we pass Acts of Parliament which necessitate references ad nauseam to former Acts, and I hope that these few words of mine may fall upon some good ground—if not on the Treasury bench, then elsewhere—and that my heart may be gladdened some day or other by this advice being taken.

MR. LEUTY (Leeds, E.)

I am somewhat curious to know how the element of justice can possibly come into the discussion of this Amendment. It may be argued that in some way those who have property in tithe rent-charge are suffering from some injustice, and that that injustice ought to be removed. But how can it be argued with regard to men who are in the future to be presented to benefices that there can be any injustice in leaving matters as they are? According to the law, of this property a portion will be given to the gentlemen who occupy the offices, and another portion will go in payment of rates. If these gentlemen do not choose to take the proportion which the present law gives them, they have no need to take the office; and if they take the office, how can it be said that there is any injustice in their emoluments being limited to those attached to the office? Therefore the element of justice does not come in. But what does come in? What comes in is this—that it is desired by Her Majesty's Government to give additional endowments to these offices, so that the gentlemen who are advanced to them will find they are advanced to offices with larger endowments than they have to-day. The First Lord of the Treasury in the earlier part of the discussion made an appeal which ought to come with great weight to any man who desires to be at all fair-minded, and that was that all these old quarrels should be ended and forgotten. How can we expect that old quarrels will be ended and forgotten when Her Majesty's Government go to Dissenters, and to those who profess no religion at all, and say to both, "You must and shall make a contribution for the increase of the endowments of the Church of England"?

* THE CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member is making a statement which dangerously approaches a speech applicable to the Second Reading.

MR. LEUTY

I am extremely glad it only dangerously approaches, and I will try to steer farther from that point. If this Bill be founded on justice I might argue that at least justice was not involved in the proposal which the Amendment suggests should be left out, inasmuch as it would affect gentlemen who at present have no manner of interest in the property in question. As a Nonconformist, I should be only too delighted to see these quarrels forgotten. But if those quarrels cannot be forgotten, the fault lies with those who insist on keeping them open by measures of this kind.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

With regard to this increasing difficulty of interpreting Acts of Parliament owing to "legislation by reference," I believe the Incorporated Law Society had the matter under their consideration for several sessions and sent appeals to the Government. Those appeals have been considered by the Solicitor-General, who has replied in formal words, but he is too busily engaged in endowing the clergy to attend to the far more important point of simplifying some of these Acts of Parliament. Lawyers themselves are complaining about it, and the difficulty, great as it is now, will be increased by means of an Act like this, which legislates by reference to four or five other very complicated Acts. I have another objection to this sub-section, and that is the interpretation sought to be applied to the words "owner of tithe rent-charge." I really believe that if the words of the Tithe Act of 1891 had been incorporated in this Bill it would have struck even Members on the other side of the House as being an extraordinarily unfair proposition. What is the interpretation there? It is that if the tithe rent-charge is vested in the Queen in right of her Crown, "owner" means "the Commissioners of Woods" in substitution for the Queen. What on earth have the Com- missioners of Woods to do with the relief which is to be granted to the clergy in respect of rates which are pressing heavily upon them? Surely they cannot complain that they are suffering. What is the second definition? It is that where the ownership is vested in the Duke of Cornwall it means the Keeper of the Records of the Duchy of Cornwall in substitution for the Duke of Cornwall. Who is the Keeper of the Records of the Duchy of Cornwall? What are the Records of the Duchy of Cornwall? We ought to have another definition, explaining what the Duchy of Cornwall is and what its limits are. Why should a grant be made to the Keeper of the Records of the Duchy of Cornwall and the Commissioners of Woods, in a Bill for the relief of the distress of the clergy? They have absolutely nothing whatever to do with it. The whole of that definition clause is confined to the Commissioners of Woods and Forests and to the Keeper of the Records of the Duchy of Cornwall, and we are asked to make a grant to those gentlemen under the Bill.

MR. LONG

Nonsense!

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

What does it mean, then? If it is nonsense, it is non-

sense which is introduced by the right hon. Gentleman himself.

MR. LONG

I withdraw the word "nonsense," but it was drawn from me by the statement that we propose to give this grant to these various people. The grant is expressly given, in clear terms in the Bill, in respect of tithe rent-charge attached to a benefice, and clearly such tithe rent-charge is not enjoyed by Her Majesty's Commissioners.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

Then if that is the case, what on earth do these words mean? This Bill is really a very stupid Bill. We have already decided that we will pay half the rates of the clerical owners of tithe rent—

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

I move that the Question be now put.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

That is the best answer the right hon. Gentleman can give me!

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 187 Noes, 107. (Division List, No. 253.)

AYES.
Allsopp, Hon. George	Chaloner, Capt. R. G. W.	Fardell, Sir T. George
Archdale, Edward Mervyn	Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm	Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.
Arnold, Alfred	Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r	Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry	Finch, George H.
Balcarres, Lord	Charrington, Spencer	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r	Clare, Octavius Leigh	Firbank, Joseph Thomas
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds	Clarke, Sir Edw.(Plymouth)	Fisher, William Hayes
Barnes, Frederic Gorell	Coddington, Sir William	Flower, Ernest
Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. Smith-	Coghill, Douglas Harry	Gibbons, J. Lloyd
Bartley, George C. T.	Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans)
Barton, Dunbar Plunket	Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse	Giles, Charles Tyrrell
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj.	Compton, Lord Alwyne	Gilliat, John Saunders
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol	Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W.	Godson, Sir Augustus F.
Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants	Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Ed. T. D.	Goldsworthy, Major-General
Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull	Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge	Gordon, Hon. John Edward
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe	Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)	Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)	Goschen, Rt Hn G. J.(St Geo.'s
Biddulph, Michael	Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Goschen, George J. (Sussex)
Bigwood, James	Curzon, Viscount	Goulding, Edward Alfred
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Graham, Henry Robert
Bolton, Thomas Dolling	Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)	Green, Walford D. (Wed'bury
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Denny, Colonel	Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord G.
Bousfield, William Robert	Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.	Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert W.
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Hanson, Sir Reginald
Brookfield, A. Montagu	Dorington, Sir John Edward	Heaton, John Henniker
Bullard, Sir Harry	Doughty, George	Henderson, Alexander
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Hermon-Hodge, R. Trotter
Butcher, John George	Doxford, William Theodore	Hill, Sir E. Stock (Bristol)
Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbys.)	Drucker, A.	Hoare, E. B. (Hampstead)
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.	Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)	Elliot, Hon A. Ralph Douglas	Hobhouse, Henry
Holland, Hon. L. R. (Bow)	Monk, Charles James	Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)
Hornby, Sir Wm. Henry	More, Robert Jasper (Shropsh.)	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Howell, William Tudor	Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn	Morrell, George Herbert	Stock, James Henry
Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-	Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)	Strauss, Arthur
Jebb, R. Claverhouse	Muntz, Philip A.	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick	Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)	Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Jenkins, Sir John Jones	Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Kemp, George	Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)	Thorburn, Walter
Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J.H.	Nicol, Donald Ninian	Thornton, Percy M.
Kenyon, James	O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens	Tollemache, Henry James.
Kimber, Henry	Penn, John	Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray
King, Sir Henry Seymour	Percy, Earl	Tritton, Charles Ernest
Lafone, Alfred	Pierpoint, Robert	Valentia, Viscount
Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)	Pilkington, R. (Lancs. Newton)	Wanklyn, James Leslie
Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry)	Platt-Higgins, Frederick	Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent)
Llewellyn, E.H.(Somerset)	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp	Welby, Lieut-Col. A. C. E.
Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swans.)	Priestley, Sir W. O. (Edin.	Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm.
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward	Willox, Sir John Archibald
Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)	Purvis, Robert	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverpool)	Rankin, Sir James	Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm
Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller	Rasch, Major Frederic Carne	Wortley, Rt. Hon.C. B.Stuart-
Lowe, Francis William	Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlepool)	Wylie, Alexander
Lucas-Shadwell, William	Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.	Wyndham, George
Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred	Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson	Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Macartney, W. G. Ellison	Robertson, Herbert(Hackney)	Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
MacIver, David (Liverpool)	Round, James	Young, Commander (Berks, E
Malcolm, Ian	Russell, T. W.(Tyrone)	Younger, William
Melville, Beresford Valentine	Rutherford, John
Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.	Seton-Karr, Henry
Mildmay, Francis Bingham	Sharpe, William Edward T.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Milner, Fir Frederick George	Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)
Milton, Viscount	Simeon, Sir Barrington
NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Harwood, George	Oldroyd, Mark
Allan, William (Gateshead)	Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-	O'Malley, William
Ambrose, Robert	Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H.	Pearson, Sir Weetman D.
Asher, Alexander	Holland, Wm. H. (York, W. R.	Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire)	Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.	Power, Patrick Joseph
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)	Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)	Price, Robert John
Barlow, John Emmott	Jacoby, James Alfred	Priestley, Briggs (Yorks)
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Jones, Wm.(Carnarvonshire)	Randell, David
Billson, Alfred	Kearley, Hudson E.	Reckitt, Harold James
Broadhurst, Henry	Kilbride, Denis	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson	Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth	Robson, William Snowdon
Caldwell, James	Lambert, George	Samuel, J.(Stockton-on-Tees)
Cameron, Sir Charles(Gl'sg'w)	Lawson, Sir W.(Cumberland)	Schwann, Charles E.
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)	Scott, Chas. Prestwich(Leigh)
Cawley, Frederick	Leng, Sir John	Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Clough, Walter Owen	Leuty, Thomas Richmond	Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarshire
Colville, John	Lewis, John Herbert	Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Lloyd-George, David	Souttar, Robinson
Crilly, Daniel	Logan, John William	Spicer, Albert
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)	Macaleese, Daniel	Stanhope, Hon. Philips
Dalziel, James HenrY	M'Crae, George	Steadman, William Charles
Davitt, Michael	M'Dermott, Patrick	Stevenson, Francis S.
Dillon, John	M'Ghee, Richard	Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Donelan, Captain A.	M'Laren, Charles Benjamin	Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Doogan, P. C.	M'Leod, John	Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Duckworth, James	Maddison, Fred.	Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan	Maden, John Henry	Wallace, Robert
Evershed, Sydney	Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel)	Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)
Fenwick, Charles	Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)	Weir, James Galloway
Flynn, James Christopher	Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr	Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)	Morley, Charles (Breconshire)	Williams, J. Carvell (Notts.)
Goddard, Daniel Ford	Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Gold, Charles	Moss, Samuel	Yoxall, James Henry
Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley	Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Griffith, Ellis J.	Nussey, Thomas Willans	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Haldane, Richard Burdon	O'Connor, James(Wicklow,W	Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Causton.
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm.	O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Question put accordingly, "That paragraph (c), of Sub-section 1, stand part of the clause."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 184; Noes, 111. (Division List, No. 254.)

AYES.
Allsop, Hon. George	Finch, George H.	Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh)
Archdale, Edward Mervyn	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Morrell, George Herbert
Arnold, Alfred	Firbank, Joseph Thomas	Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Fisher, William Hayes	Muntz, Philip A.
Balcarres, Lord	Flower, Ernest	Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r	Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)	Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds	Gibbons, J. Lloyd	Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath)
Barnes, Frederic Gorell	Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)	Nicol, Donald Ninian
Barry, Rt Hn A H. Smith-(Hunts	Giles, Charles Tyrrell	O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Bartley, George C. T.	Gilliat, John Saunders	Penn, John
Barton, Dunbar Plunket	Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.	Percy, Earl
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin	Goldsworthy, Major-General	Pierpoint, Robert
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H.(Bristol	Gordon, Hon. John Edward	Pilkington, R.(Lancs, Newton)
Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants.	Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon	Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull	Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (St. Geo's)	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe	Goschen, George J. (Sussex)	Priestley, Sir W. O. (Edin.)
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Goulding, Edward Alfred	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Biddulph, Michael	Graham, Henry Robert	Purvis, Robert
Bigwood, James	Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'y	Rankin, Sir James
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Gretton, John	Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo.	Richardson, Sir Thos. (Hartlep'l
Bousfield, William Robert	Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. Wm.	Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Hanson, Sir Reginald	Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Brookfield, A. Montagu	Henderson, Alexander	Robertson, Herbert(Hackney)
Bullard, Sir Harry	Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter	Round, James
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol)	Royds, Clement Molyneux
Butcher, John George	Hoare, Ed. Brodie (Hampstead)	Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbysh.)	Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)	Rutherford, John
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Hobhouse, Henry	Seton-Karr, Henry
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)	Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow)	Sharpe, William Edward T.
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.	Hornby, Sir William Henry	Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)
Chamberlain, Rt.Hn.J.(Brim.)	Howell, William Tudor	Simeon, Sir Barrington
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r	Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn	Stanley Hn. A. (Ormskirk)
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry	Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Charrington, Spencer	Jebb, Richard Claverhonse	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Chelsea, Viscount	Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick	Stock, James Henry
Clare, Octavius Leigh	Jenkins, Sir John Jones	Strauss, Arthur
Clarke, Sir Edward(Plymouth)	Kemp, George	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Coddington, Sir William	Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H.	Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Coghill, Douglas Harry	Kenyon, James	Talbot, Lord E.(Chichester)
Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Kimber, Henry	Thorburn, Walter
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse	King Sir Henry Seymour	Thornton, Percy M.
Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W.	Lafone, Alfred	Tollemache, Henry James
Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Edw.T.D.	Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)	Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge	Lea,Sir Thomas (Londonderry	Tritton, Charles Ernest
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)	Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset	Valentia, Viscount
Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'ns'a	Wanklyn, James Leslie
Curzon, Viscount	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine	Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E.(Kent)
Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesh'm	Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chath'm	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverpool	Williams, J. Powell-(Birm.)
Denny, Colonel	Lopes, Henry Yerde Buller	Willox, Sir John Archibald
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.	Lowe, Francis William	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred	Wylie, Alexander
Dorington, Sir John Edward	Macartney, W. G. Ellison	Wyndham, George
Doughty, George	MacIver, David (Liverpool)	Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H.
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Malcolm, Ian	Wyvill, Marmaduke d'Arcy
Doxford, William Theodore	Melville, Beresford Valentine	Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Drucker, A.	Meysey-Thompon, Sir H. M.	Younger, William
Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.	Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas	Milner, Sir Frederick George	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Fardell, Sir T. George	Milton, Viscount
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.	Monk, Charles James
Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)	More, Robert Jasp. (Shropshire)
NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Ambrose, Robert	Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire)
Allan, William (Gateshead)	Asher, Alexander	Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)
Barlow, John Emmott	Hutton, Alfred E.(Morley)	Power, Patrick Joseph
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Jacoby, James Alfred	Price, Robert John
Billson, Alfred	Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.	Priestley, Briggs (Yorks.)
Bolton, Thomas Dolling	Kearley, Hudson E.	Randell, David
Broadhurst, Henry	Kilbride, Denis	Reckitt, Harold James
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson	Kinloch, Sir J. George Smyth	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Caldwell, James	Lambert, George	Robson, William Snowdon
Cameron, Sir Charles(Glasgow	Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'l'd	Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Leese, Sir J. F.(Accrington)	Schwann, Charles E.
Cawley, Frederick	Leng, Sir John	Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Clough, Walter Owen	Leuty, Thomas Richmond	Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford)
Colville, John	Lewis, John Herbert	Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Lloyd-George, David	Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire)
Crilly, Daniel	Logan, John William	Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)	Macaleese, Daniel	Souttar, Robinson
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)	MacDonnell, Dr. M.A.(Qn'sC.	Spicer, Albert
Dalziel, James Henry	M'Crae, George	Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.
Davitt, Michael	M'Dermott, Patrick	Steadman, William Charles
Dillon, John	M'Ghee, Richard	Stevenson, Francis S.
Donelan, Captain A.	M'Laren, Charles Benjamin	Sullivan, Donald (Westmeath)
Doogan, P. C.	M'Leod, John	Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)
Duckworth, James	Maddison, Fred.	Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan	Maden, John Henry	Trevelyan, Charles Philips.
Evershed, Sydney	Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel)	Wallace, Robert
Fenwick, Charles	Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)	Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)
Flynn, James Cristopher	Morgan, W. Pritchard(Merthyr	Weir, James Galloway
Foster, Sir Walter(Derby Co.)	Morley, Charles (Breconshire)	Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Goddard, Daniel Ford	Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)	Williams, John Carvell (Notts)
Gold, Charles Moss, Samuel	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Gourley, Sir E. Temperley	Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Griffith, Ellis J.	Nussey, Thomas Willans	Yoxall, James Henry
Haldane, Richard Burdon	O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.)
Harcourt, Rt. Hn. Sir William	O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Harwood, George	Oldroyd, Mark	Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Causton.
Hayne, Rt. Hn. Chas. Seale-	O'Malley, William
Hemphill,Rt. Hon. Charles H.	Pearson, Sir Weetman D.
Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.	Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Mr. BALFOUR

rose in Ins place and claimed to move, "That the Question 'That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill' be now put."

Question put, "That the Question 'That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill' be now put."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 184; Noes, 97. (Division List, No. 255.)

AYES.
Allsopp, Hon. George	Butcher, John George	Denny, Colonel
Archdale, Edward Mervyn	Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)	Dickson-Poynder, Sir J. P.
Arnold, Alfred	Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Cecil, E. (Hertford, East)	Dorington, Sir John Edward
Balcarres, Lord	Chaloner, Capt. R. G. W.	Doughty, George
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r	Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds)	Chamberlain, J. A. (Worcester)	Doxford, William Theodore
Barnes, Frederic Gorrell	Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry	Drucker, A.
Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts	Charrington, Spencer	Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.
Bartley, George C. T.	Chelsea, Viscount	Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Hart
Barton, Dunbar Plunket	Clare, Octavius Leigh	Elliot, Hon. A. R. Douglas
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj'n	Clarke, Sir E. (Plymouth)	Fardell, Sir T. George
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M.H.(Bristol	Coddington, Sir William	Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Ed.
Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants.	Coghill, Douglas Harry	Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)
Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull	Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Finch, George H.
Bentrose, Sir Henry Howe	Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Cook, F. L. (Lambeth)	Firbank, Joseph Thomas
Biddulph, Michael	Cornwallis, Fiennes S. W.	Fisher, William Hayes
Bigwood, James	Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.	Flower, Ernest
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Cox, Irwin E. Bainbridge	Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Cross, A. (Glasgow)	Gibbons, J. Lloyd
Bousfield, William Robert	Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)	Gibbs, Hon. V. (St. Albans)
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Giles, Charles Tyrrell
Brookfield, A. Montagu	Curzon, Viscount	Gilliat, John Saunders
Bullard, Sir Harry	Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)	Goldsworthy, Major-General
Gordon, Hon. John Edward	Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller	Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon	Lowe, Francis William	Rutherford, John
Gosechen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (St. Geo's	Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred	Sharpe, William Edward T.
Goschen, George J. (Sussex)	Macartney, W. G. Ellison	Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)
Goulding, Edward Alfred	MacIver, David (Liverpool)	Simeon, Sir Barrington
Graham, Henry Robert	Malcolm, Ian	Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)
Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'y	Melville, Beresford Valentine	Stanley, Sir H. M. (Lambeth)
Gretton, John	Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo.	Mildmay, Francis Bingham	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. Wm.	Milner, Sir Frederick George	Stock, James Henry
Hanson, Sir Riginald	Milton, Viscount	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Henderson, Alexander	Monk, Charles James	Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter	More, Rt. Jasper (Shropshire)	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol)	Morgan, Hon. F.(Monm'thsh.	Thorburn, Walter
Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampste'd	Morrell, George Herbert	Thornton, Percy M.
Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)	Morton, A. H. A.(Deptford)	Tollemache, Henry James
Hobhouse, Henry	Murray, Rt. Hon. A.G.(Bute)	Tomlinson, Wm. Edw.Murray
Holland, Hon. Lionel R. (Bow	Murray, Chas. J.(Coventry)	Tritton, Charles Ernest
Hornby, Sir William Henry	Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)	Valentia, Viscount
Howell, William Tudor	Nicol, Donald Ninian	Wanklyn, James Leslie
Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn	O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens	Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent)
Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-	Penn, John	Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Jebb, Richard Claverhouse	Percy, Earl	Williams, Jos. Powell-(Birm.
Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick	Pierpoint, Robert	Willox, Sir John Archibald
Jenkins, Sir John Jones	Pilkington, R.(Lancs, Newton)	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp	Wortley, Rt. Hn. C.B. Stuart-
Kenyon, James	Priestley, Sir W. Overend (Edin.	Wylie, Alexander
Kimber, Henry	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward	Wyndham, George
King, Sir Henry Seymour	Purvis, Robert	Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Lafone, Alfred	Rankin, Sir James	Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)	Rasch, Major Frederic Carne	Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry)	Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlepool)	Younger, William
Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset)	Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Mattltew W.
Llewellyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'ns'a	Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine	Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)	Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)	Round, James
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverpool	Royds, Clement Molyneux
NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.	Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Allen, William (Gateshead)	Hutton, Alfred E.(Morley)	Power, Patrick Joseph
Ambrose, Robert	Jacoby, James Alfred	Provand, Andrew Dryburgh
Asher, Alexander	Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)	Randell, David
Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire)	Kearley, Hudson E.	Reckitt, Harold James
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)	Lambert, George	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Barlow, John Emmott	Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land	Robson, William Snowdon
Billson, Alfred	Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington	Samuel, J.(Stockton on Tees)
Broadhurst, Henry	Leng, Sir John	Schwann, Charles E.
Caldwell, James	Leuty, Thomas Richmond	Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Cameron, Sir Charles(Glasgow	Lewis, John Herbert	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Champbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Lloyd-George, David	Shaw, Thomas(Hawick B.)
Cawley, Frederick	Logan, John William	Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire)
Clough, Walter Owen	MacAleese, Daniel	Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Colville, John	MacDonnell, Dr. M A (Queen's C	Souttar, Robinson
Condon, Thomas Joseph	M'Crae, George	Spicer, Albert
Crilly, Daniel	M'Dermott, Patrick	Steadman, William Charles
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)	M'Gee, Richard	Stevenson, Francis S.
Dalziel, James Henry	M'Laren, Charles Benjamin	Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Davitt, Michael	M'Leod, John	Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)
Dillon, John	Maddison, Fred.	Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Donelan, Captain A.	Maden, John Henry	Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Doogan, P. C.	Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel)	Wallace, Robert
Duckworth, James	Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)	Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.)
Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan)	Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merth.)	Weir, James Galloway
Fenwick, Charles	Morley, Charles (Breconshire)	Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Flynn, James Christopher	Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)	Williams, John Carvell (Notts.
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)	Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Goddard, Daniel Ford	Nussey, Thomas Willans	Yoxall, James Henry
Gold, Charles	O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.
Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley	O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Causton.
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William	Oldroyd, Mark
Harwood, George	O'Malley, William
Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-	Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

Question put accordingly, "That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 184; Noes, 101. (Division List, No. 256.)

AYES.
Allsopp, Hon. George	Fardell, Sir T. George	Milton, Viscount
Archdale, Edward Mervyn	Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.	Monk, Charles James
Arnold, Alfred	Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)	More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)
Atkinson, Right Hon. John	Finch, George H.	Morgan, Hn. F.(Monmouthsh.
Balcarres, Lord	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Morrell, George Herbert
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(Man.)	Firbank, Joseph Thomas	Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G.W.(Leeds)	Fisher, William Hayes	Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)
Barnes, Frederic Gorell	Flower, Ernest	Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)
Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(H'nts)	Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)	Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Bartley, George C. T.	Gibbons, J. Lloyd	Nicol, Donald Ninian
Barton, Dunbar Plunket	Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans	O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Bathurst, Hon. Allen B.	Giles, Charles Tyrrell	Penn, John
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Brstl.)	Gilliat, John Saunders	Percy, Earl
Beach, W. W. B. (Hants)	Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.	Pierpoint, Robert
Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull	Goldsworthy, Major-General	Pilkington, R.(Lancs,Newton)
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe	Gordon, Hon. John Edward	Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Bigwood, James	Goschen, Rt Hn G J (St George's)	Priestley, Sir W. Overend (Edin.
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Goschen, George J. (Sussex)	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Goulding, Edward Alfred	Purvis, Robert
Bousfield, William Robert	Graham, Henry Robert	Rankin, Sir James
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Gray, Ernest (West Ham)	Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Brookfield, A. Montagu	Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)	Richardson, Sir T.(Hartlepool)
Bullard, Sir Harry	Gretton, John	Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George	Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson
Butcher, John George	Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. W.	Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derby.)	Hanson, Sir Reginald	Round, James
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Henderson, Alexander	Royds, Clement Molyneux
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)	Hermon-Hodge, R. Trotter	Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.	Hill, Sir E. S. (Bristol)	Rutherford, John
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.	Hoare, E. B. (Hampstead)	Sharpe, William Edward T.
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r	Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)	Sidebottom, T.H. (Stalybridge
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry	Hobhouse, Henry	Simeon, Sir Barrington
Charrington, Spencer	Holland, Hon. L. R. (Bow)	Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)
Chelsea, Viscount	Hornby, Sir W. Henry	Stanley, Sir H. M. (Lambeth)
Clare, Octavius Leigh	Howell, William Tudor	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Clarke, Sir Edward (Plymouth	Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M.
Coddington, Sir William	Hutchinson, Capt. G.W.Grice-	Stock, James Henry
Coghill, Douglas Harry	Jebb, Richard Claverhouse	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick	Shurt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse	Jenkins, Sir John Jones	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Compton, Lord Alwyne	Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir J. H.	Thorburn, Walter
Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)	Kenyon, James	Thornton, Percy M.
Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W.	King, Sir Henry Seymour	Tollemache, Henry James
Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.	Lafone, Alfred	Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray
Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge	Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)	Tritton, Charles Ernest
Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)	Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry)	Valentia, Viscount
Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset)	Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E. (Kent)
Curzon, Viscount	Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swans'a	Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine	Williams, J. Powell- (Birm.)
Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)	Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)	Willox, Sir John Archibald
Denny, Colonel	Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverpool)	Wortley, Rt. Hn.C. B. Stuart-
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.	Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller	Wylie, Alexander
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Lowe, Francis William	Wyndham, George
Dorington, Sir John Edward	Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred	Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H.
Doughty, George	Macartney, W. G. Ellison	Wyvill, Marmaduke d'Arcy
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	MacIver, David (Liverpool)	Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Doxford, William Theodore	Malcolm, Ian	Younger, William
Drucker, A.	Melville, Beresford Valentine
Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.	Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart	Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas	Milner, Sir Frederick George
NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Atherley-Jones, L.	Billson, Alfred
Allan, William (Gateshead)	Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire)	Broadhurst, Henry
Ambrose, Robert	Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)	Caldwell, James
Asher, Alexander	Barlow, John Emmott	Cameron, Sir Charles (Glasgow
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland)	Randell, David
Cawley, Frederick	Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)	Reckitt, Harold James
Clough, Walter Owen	Leng, Sir John	Roberts, J. H. (Denbighs)
Colville, John	Leuty, Thomas Richmond	Robson, William Snowdon
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Lewis, John Herbert	Samuel, J. (Stockton on Tees)
Crilly, Daniel	Lloyd-George, David	Schwann, Charles E.
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)	Logan, John William	Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)	Macaleese, Daniel	Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford)
Dalziel, James Henry	MacDonnell, Dr M. A (Queen's C	Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Davitt, Michael	M'Crae, George	Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire)
Dillon, John	M'Dermott, Patrick	Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Donelan, Captain A.	M'Ghee, Richard	Souttar, Robinson
Doogan, P. C.	M'Laren, Charles Benjamin	Spicer, Albert
Duckworth, James	M'Leod, John	Steadman, William Charles
Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan)	Maddison, Fred.	Stevenson, Francis S.
Fenwick, Charles	Maden, John Henry	Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Flynn, James Christopher	Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel)	Thomas, Alfred (Glam., E.)
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)	Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen	Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Goddard, Daniel Ford	Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr	Trevelyan, Charles Phillips
Gold, Charles	Morley, Charles (Breconshire)	Wallace, Robert
Gourley, Sir Edward Temperley	Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)	Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William	Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Weir, James Galloway
Harwood, George	Nussey, Thomas Willans	Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-	O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.)	Williams, John Carvell (Notts)
Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.	O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)	Oldroyd, Mark	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Jacoby, James Alfred	O'Malley, William	Yoxall, James Henry
Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)	Pearson, Sir Weetman D.
Kearley, Hudson E.	Pickersgill, Edward Hare	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
kilbride, Denis	Power, Patrick Joseph	Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Causton.
Lambert, George	Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

Clause 3:—

MR. DALZIEL (Kirkcaldy Burghs)

The Amendment I have to move is a perfectly innocent one, and in ordinary circumstances I am certain it would have been accepted by the Government.

Attention called to the fact that forty Members were not present; House counted, and, forty Members being found present:

MR. DALZIEL

I was saying that my Amendment is a perfectly innocent one, and under ordinary circumstances I should have hoped that it would have been accepted. But I am afraid the attitude of the Government towards all Amendments, innocent and uninnocent, gives me little hope that I shall be any more successful than some of my colleagues have been with their Amendments. The object of my Amendment is to alter the title of the Bill from "Tithe Rent-charge (Rates) Act, 1899," to "Tithe Rent-charge (Rates Relief) Act, 1899." That is an Amendment which I think is obvious on the face of it. The Solicitor-General will agree that the title of an Act of Parliament should, as far as possible, convey the meaning of the Act and give it a particular identification from all other Acts dealing with the same subject. We have already other Acts dealing with tithe—I do not know how many—and it would be an advantage if anyone wished to turn it up and refer to it, so as to understand its meaning, if the word I have suggested were inserted. I think that the clergymen who gain by this Bill will not deny that they are obtaining relief, and the Government will not deny that they are giving the clergy relief. I am sure the Amendment will not do the Bill any harm, and it better expresses the object of the Bill than the present title. I hope the hon. and learned Member the Solicitor-General will accept the addition of the word "Relief," and make it unnecessary to have further discussion.

Amendment proposed— In page 3, line 1, after the word 'Rates,' to insert the word 'Relief.'"—(Dr. Dalziel.)

Question proposed, "That the word 'Relief' be there inserted."

SIR R. B. FINLAY

I know how anxious the hon. Gentleman is to save the time of the Committee, and it gives me some pleasure in these circumstances to say at once that I am not able to accede to his request. He said that his Amendment was an innocent one, but innocence is not quite enough to induce its acceptance. It is necessary that there should be something in the Amendment. I am quite unable to see why the title of the measure should be amended in the direction desired. It is not usual to go into detail in the title if it sufficiently indicates the general subject dealt with. That subject is sufficiently indicated in the title, "Tithe Rent-charge (Rates) Act, 1899," and therefore I cannot recommend the acceptance of the Amendment.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

As another Member anxious to save the time of the Committee, I wish to support the Amendment of my hon. friend. The hon. and learned Solicitor-General says that the mere fact of innocence is not enough for the acceptance of an Amendment; but earlier in the evening the only argument he advanced for the retention of some words in the Bill was that they would do no harm. But that is not my argument in favour of the Amendment. I think the title of a Bill ought to indicate clearly the nature of the Bill, so that the public should know what really its object is. If anyone looked at the title of the Bill as it stands, he would think that it had something to do with rating. It has nothing whatever to do with rating. I am sure the hon. and learned Solicitor-General will admit that. It does not affect rating; it does not touch assessment; and there is nothing about valuation in it. If the recommendations of the hon. member for Stroud and those who co-operated with him on the Royal Commission had been adopted, and changes had been made in the rating of the clergy, I quite admit that this might have been a very fair description of the Bill. But what is the nature of the transaction? The rating of the clergy is not touched; the rates of the clergy are not touched; everything is to remain exactly as it is, and only a certain amount of relief is to be given to the clergy. If you want a simple, condensed description of what the nature and character of the Bill is, it is "Tithe Rent-charge (Rates Relief) Bill." So far as the popular mind is concerned it is really a Bill granting an addition to the endowment of the Church of England. A better description would have been "a Bill for making an addition to the stipends of the clergy," for its object is really a vote by Parliament to add £87,000 a year to the salaries or stipends of the clergy of the Established Church. I think the Committee ought to characterise this Bill according to the real nature of the transaction embodied in it. Why should the Government be afraid of it unless they are ashamed of this transaction? Why not call it by its proper name? They are actually afraid to put in a condensed form the character of the transaction.

MR. BROADHURST (Leicester)

I join in the appeal to the Solicitor-General to be reasonable. The Government have not up to the present exercised much reason in regard to the conduct of this Bill. I am bound to admit that there have been Amendments which I have supported which have perhaps been not quite so sensible as this. I cannot conceive anything more just than to ask that the Bill should be described in language in harmony with its nature. This is essentially an "Outdoor Relief Bill." Had I been consulted, I should have suggested as a description, "Tithe Rent-charge Out-door Relief Bill." Had we innocents, who are not favoured with a knowledge of the law, not been joining in the discussion of the Bill, we should not have known the meaning of it from its title, which is absolutely misleading. It is a strong thing to say that the Government gave it this title in order to mislead. I should not like to be so offensive as to suggest that; but many people would say so, and I am bound to admit that they would not be indulging in great inaccuracy. I think I know what the Solicitor-General is after; it is to see that nothing is done, or undone, that will necessitate a Report stage. I really think we ought to have one small concession in the demands of reason, truth, and justice before we part with this Bill.

MR. D. A. THOMAS

I think this is an Amendment which the hon. Gentlemen opposite might very well accept. It is very reasonable, and the arguments on which my hon. friend based it must commend themselves to the Committee. I hope my hon. friend, unless he gets a far more satisfactory reply than he has done, will press the Amendment to a Division. The hon. and learned Member opposite has frankly acknowledged that we on this side of the House have no desire to prolong proceedings, and for my part, although the closure has been moved against me more than once, I have not put a single Amendment on the Paper that has not been in order. Well, the hon. and learned Member said it was not enough for an Amendment to be childlike and innocent. I do not know what he meant; but I remember his Leader coming down here and saying that on certain matters he was a child. In this matter we are children, and I do not think the hon. and learned Gentlemen ought to take any exception to us on that ground. The title of the Bill as proposed by the hon. and learned Member is distinctly misleading. It says, "This Act may be cited as the Tithe Rent-charge (Rates) Act, 1899." After the discussions we have had, who can say in truth that that is an accurate description of the Bill? It only applies to one section of tithe rent-charge, to the tithe rent-charge attached to a benefice, and I say that the title is a distinct misnomer.

* THE CHAIRMAN

Order, order! That is not the point before the Committee. The point is the word "relief."

MR. D. A. THOMAS

It is not a relief to the lay impropriator, or to the tithe rent-charge belonging to colleges and schools. But even as it is, the word "relief" will make the title more appropriate to the character of the Bill.

MR. NUSSEY (Pontefract)

I really think that this additional word "relief" does describe the purpose of the Bill more accurately than the description the Government have adopted. We are told the true principle underlying the Bill is the principle of justice, and that it was introduced in order to do justice to the clergy who have paid too much rates. I cannot see that the addition of this word "relief" interferes with the principle of justice. Then we are told that the Bill was introduced for personal services.

* THE CHAIRMAN

This is not the opportunity for reviewing all the Debates.

MR. NUSSEY

I bow to your ruling, Mr. Lowther. I would like to show that this word "relief" more accurately describes the character of the Bill than the Government in its infinite wisdom—

* THE CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member is now repeating arguments which have already been used.

MR. NUSSEY

I will not go beyond that. The actual interpolation of the word "relief" does not cast any slur whatever on the clergy. I am sure my hon. friend would not have moved it if he thought the word cast any slur on the clergy at all. The object is more accurately to convey to the electors at large the real object of the Bill, and as such I hope the Government will accept it.

MR. SAMUEL EVANS

Whenever the Government do not like the real object of a Bill to be exposed they always adopt a misnomer of a title. For instance, they introduce a "Rating Machinery Bill." But it is not a Bill for rating of machinery, but for the exemption of machinery from rating. I do not like the title of the Bill, or even the title, "The Clergy Relief Bill." To paraphrase a classical quotation, "How unhappy could I be with either." But by any other name this Bill would be to me equally unsweet.

MR. MADDISON (Sheffield, Brightside)

I have no legal knowledge, and therefore it is almost presumption for me to follow the Solicitor-General, but I do not understand the meaning of the word "rates" as introduced.

* THE CHAIRMAN

Order, order! That is not the Question. The Question is that the words "rates relief" should be inserted.

MR. MADDISON

I think the word "relief" should certainly be inserted, because unless you have something to indicate the character of the Bill, you will have a peculiar anomaly. Take the City of Sheffield. The title, "Tithe Rent Charge (Rates) Bill," would be entirely misleading to that great Yorkshire city, because the rates there do not apply to tithe rent-charge at all. There is not in that city a single penny of tithe rent-charge, although of course, as my hon. friend reminds me, the inhabitants of that city will have to pay. That is part of the policy of the Bill that I am not allowed to go into, and I do not wish to appear to do so. My only point is that this Bill is misleading, because it gives a title that has no application to certain districts of the country. Therefore, if the word relief, or if some other better word than relief, could be inserted in the title, it would give not merely an innocent appearance to the Bill, but an accurate description to the Bill itself. I certainly do think, while I cannot agree with the hon. Member for Leicester that this is the most important Amendment moved, that it is a substantial Amendment, that is to say, if the Government desire that the description of the Bill shall give any indication of its contents. The chances are that the Government, wise in their day and generation, do not want this to be done, but still I think that the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill ought really to favourably consider either the actual word moved, or some other similar word in order to give the Bill an accurate description.

* MR. CARVELL WILLIAMS

There is one provision in this Bill to which the

proposed title of the Bill certainly is not applicable. The second sub-section of Clause 2 differs from all the other provisions of the Bill in this respect, that other provisions of the Bill relate to clergymen whose incomes are dependent upon the receipt of tithe rent-charge; but Subsection 2 of Clause 2 relates to quite another—

* THE CHAIRMAN

Order, order! That part of the Bill has been passed, and the hon. Member cannot refer back to it.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 105; Noes, 175. (Division List, No. 257.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Goddard, Daniel Ford	O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Allan, William (Gateshead)	Gold, Charles	Oldroyd, Mark
Ambrose, Robert	Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley	O'Malley, William
Asher, Alexander	Hazell, Walter	Palmer, George Wm.(Reading
Austin, Sir J. (Yorkshire)	Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.	Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)	Horniman, Frederick John	Power, Patrick Joseph
Barlow, John Emmott	Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.	Provand, Andrew Dryburgh
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)	Randell, David
Billson, Alfred	Jacoby, James Alfred	Reckitt, Harold James
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson	Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez Ed.	Rickett, J. Compton
Burns, John	Kilbride, Denis	Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)
Caldwell, James	Labouchere, Henry	Samuel, J. (Stockton on Tees)
Cameron, Sir C. (Glasgow)	Langley, Batty	Schwann, Charles E.
Cameron, Robert (Durham)	Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)	Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Leng, Sir John	Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Causton, Richard Knight	Leuty, Thomas Richmond	Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Clark, Dr. G. B.(Caithness-sh)	Lewis, John Herbert	Souttar, Robinson
Clough, Walter Owen	Macaleese, Daniel	Spicer, Albert
Colville, John	MacDonnell, Dr. M. A. (Q'n's C.	Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.
Condon, Thomas Joseph	M'Crae, George	Steadman, William Charles
Crilly, Daniel	M'Dermott, Patrick	Stevenson, Francis S.
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)	M'Ghee, Richard	Stuart, James (Shoreditch)
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)	M'Kenna, Reginald	Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Davies, M. V.- (Cardigan)	M'Laren, Charles Benjamin	Thomas, Alfred(Glamorgan, E.
Davitt, Michael	M'Leod, John	Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr)
Dillon, John	Maddison, Fred.	Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Donelan, Captain A.	Maden, John Henry	Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)
Doogan, P. C.	Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand	Weir, James Galloway
Duckworth, James	Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel)	Whiteley, George (Stockport)
Dunn, Sir William	Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen	Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan)	Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr	Williams, John Carvell (Notts.
Evershed, Sydney	Morley, Charles (Breconshire)	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Fenwick, Charles	Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)	Yoxall, James Henry
Flynn, James Christopher	Norton, Capt. Cecil William	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Foster, Sir W. (Derby Co.)	Nussey, Thomas Willans	Mr. Dalziel and Mr. Broadhurst.
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John	O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.
NOES.
Allsopp, Hon. George	Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W.(Leeds)	Bathurst, Hon. A. B.
Archdale, E. Mervyn	Banbury, Frederick George	Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull
Arnold, Alfred	Barnes, Frederic Gorell	Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts	Bentinck, Lord Henry C.
Balcarres, Lord	Bartley, George C. T.	Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)	Barton, Dunbar Plunket	Biddulph, Michael
Bigwood, James	Giles, Charles Tyrrell	Morrison, Walter
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick	Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Goldsworthy, Major-General	Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)
Bousfield, William Robert	Gordon, Hon. John Edward	Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Brookfield, A. Montagu	Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon	Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Bullard, Sir Harry	Goulding, Edward Alfred	O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Graham, Henry Robert	Pierpoint, Robert
Butcher, John George	Gray, Ernest (West Ham)	Pilkington, R. (Lancs., Newton)
Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbysh.)	Green, Walford D (Wednesbury	Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Gretton, John	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.	Gull, Sir Cameron	Priestley, Sir W. O.(Edin.)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.	Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord George	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r	Hanbury, Rt Hon. Robert Wm.	Purvis, Robert
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry	Hanson, Sir Reginald	Rankin, Sir James
Charrington, Spencer	Helder, Augustus	Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Chelsea, Viscount	Henderson, Alexander	Richards, Henry Charles
Clare, Octavius Leigh	Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter	Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)
Clarke, Sir Edw. (Plymouth)	Hill, Sir Edward Stock (Bristol)	Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson
Coddington, Sir William	Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead)	Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Coghill, Douglas Harry	Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)	Royds, Clement Molyneux
Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Hobhouse, Henry	Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse	Holland, Hon. Lionel R. (Bow)	Rutherford, John
Compton, Lord Alwyne	Hornby, Sir William Henry	Savory, Sir Joseph
Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)	Howell, William Tudor	Sharpe, William Edward T.
Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W.	Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn	Sidebottom, T. Harrop (Stalybr.
Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Edw.T.D.	Jebb, Richard Claverhouse	Simeon, Sir Barrington
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge	Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick	Stanley, Sir Hy. M. (Lambeth)
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)	Jenkins, Sir John Jones	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)	Stock, James Henry
Curzon, Viscount	Kemp, George	Strauss, Arthur
Dalkeith, Earl of	Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Kenyon, James	Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chath'm	Kimber, Henry	Thorburn, Walter
Denny, Colonel	King, Sir Henry Seymour	Thornton, Percy M.
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.	Lafone, Alfred	Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Disraeli, Conings by Ralph	Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)	Tritton, Charles Ernest
Dorington, Sir John Edward	Lea, Sir Thomas (Londonderry	Valentia, Viscount
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Leighton, Stanley	Ward, Hon. Robt. A. (Crewe)
Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S.	Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset)	Warde, Lt.-Col. C.E. (Kent)
Doxford, William Theodore	Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swans.	Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E.
Drucker, A.	Lockwood, Lieut.-Colonel A. R.	Williams, Jos. Powell-(Birm.).
Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine	Willox, Sir John Archibald
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas	Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Fardell, Sir T. George	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverpool	Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward	Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller	Wylie, Alexander
Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)	Lowe, Francis William	Wyndham, George
Finch, George H.	Lowles, John	Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Lucas-Shadwell, William	Young, Commander (Berks, E.
Firbank, Joseph Thomas	Macartney, W. G. Ellison	Younger, William
Fisher, William Hayes	MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Flower, Ernest	Melville, Beresford Valentine	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Foster, Harry S.(Suffolk)	Monk, Charles James	Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Gibbons, J. Lloyd	More, R. Jasper (Shropshire)
Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans	Morrell, George Herbert

Question put, "That Clause 3 stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 184; Noes, 118. (Division List No. 258.)

AYES.
Allsopp, Hon. George	Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol	Butcher, John George
Archdale, Edward Mervyn	Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull	Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)
Arnold, Alfred	Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe	Cavendish, V. C.W. (Derbysh.
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Bentinck, Lord Henry C.	Cayzer, Sir Charles William
Balcarres, Lord	Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r	Biddulph, Michael	Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.
Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W.(Leeds	Bigwood, James	Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.
Banbury, Frederick George	Blundell, Colonel Henry	Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc
Barnes, Frederic Gorell	Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry
Barry, Rt Hn A H. Smith-(Hunts	Bousfield, William Robert	Charrington, Spencer
Bartley, George C. T.	Brookfield, A. Montagu	Chelsea, Viscount
Barton, Dunbar Plunket	Bullard, Sir Harry	Clare, Octavins Leigh
Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin	Burdett-Coutts, W.	Clarke, Sir Edward (Plym'th)
Coddington, Sir William	Hanson, Sir Reginald	Muray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Coghill, Douglas Harry	Helder, Augustus	O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Henderson, Alexander	Pierpoint, Robert
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse	Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter	Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton)
Compton, Lord Alwyne	Hill, Sir Edward Stock(Bristol)	Platt- Higgins, Frederick
Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)	Hoare, Edw Brodie (Hampstead	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp
Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W.	Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)	Priestley, Sir W. Overend (Edin.
Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.	Hobhouse, Henry	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge	Holland, Hon. Lionel R. (Bow)	Purvis, Robert
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)	Hornby, Sir William Henry	Rankin, Sir James
Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Houston, R. P.	Rasch, Major Frederic Carne
Curzon, Viscount	Howell, William Tudor	Richards, Henry Charles
Dalkeith, Earl of	Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn	Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlepool)
Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-	Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. T.
Davies, Sir H. D.(Chatham)	Jebb, Richard Claverhouse	Robertson, H. (Hackney)
Denny, Colonel	Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick	Royds, Clement Molyneux
Dickson-Poynder, Sir J. P.	Jenkins, Sir John Jones	Russell, T. w. (Tyrone)
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)	Rutherford, John
Dorington, Sir John Edward	Kemp, George	Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. E. J.
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H.	Savory, Sir Joseph
Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S.	Kenyon, James	Sharpe, W. E. T.
Doxford, William Theodore	Kimber, Henry	Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)
Drucker, A.	King, Sir Henry Seymour	Simeon, Sir Barrington
Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.	Lafone, Alfred	Stanley, Sir H. M. (Lambeth)
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas	Lawson, John Grant (Yorks)	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Fardell, Sir T. George	Lea, Sir T. (Londonberry)	Stock, James Henry
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edwd.	Leighton, Stanley	Strauss, Arthur
Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)	Llewellyn, E. H. (Somerset)	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Finch, George H.	Llewelyn. Sir D.-(Swansea)	Sturt, Hon. H. Napier
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.	Sutherland, Sir Thomas
Firbank, Joseph Thomas	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine	Thorburn, Walter
Fisher, William Hayes	Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)	Thornton, Percy M.
Flower, Ernest	Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverpool)	Tomlinson, W. E.Murray
Foster, Harry S.(Suffolk)	Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller	Tritton, Charles Ernest
Gibbons, J. Lloyd	Lowe, Francis William	Valentia, Viscount
Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)	Lowles, John	Ward, Hon. R. A. (Crewe)
Giles, Charles Tyrrell	Lucas-Shadwell, William	Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E. (Kent)
Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick	Macartney, W. G. Ellison	Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E.
Goldsworthy, Major-General	MacIver, David (Liverpool)	Williams, J. Powell-(Birm.)
Gordon, Hon. John Edward	Melville, Beresford Valentine	Willox, Sir J. Archibald
Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon	Milton, Viscount	Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
Goulding, Edward Alfred	Monk, Charles James	Wylie, Alexander
Graham, Henry Robert	More, R. Jasper (Shropshire)	Wyndham, George
Gray, Ernest (West Ham)	Morrell, George Herbert	Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Green, Walford D (Wednesbury	Morrison, Walter	Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Gretton, John	Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)	Younger, William
Gull, Sir Cameron	Muntz, Philip A.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George	Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G.(Bute)	Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Hanbury, Rt. Hn. RobertWm.	Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Condon, Thomas Joseph	Hayne, Rt. Hn. Chas. Seale-
Allan, William (Gateshead)	Crilly, Daniel	Hazell, Walter
Ambrose, Robert	Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)	Hedderwick, Thomas C. H.
Asher, Alexander	Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)	Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H.
Atherley-Jones, L.	Dalziel, James Henry	Horniman, Frederick John
Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire)	Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan	Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)	Davitt, Michael	Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)
Barlow, John Emmott	Dillon, John	Jacoby, James Alfred
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire	Donelan, Captain A.	Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez E.
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.	Doogan, P. C.	Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)
Billson, Alfred	Duckworth, James	Kilbride, Denis
Broadhurst, Henry	Dunn, Sir William	Labouchere, Henry
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson	Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan)	Lambert, George
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Evershed, Sydney	Langley, Batty
Burns, John	Fenwick, Charles	Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)
Caldwell, James	Flynn, James Christopher	Leng, Sir John
Cameron, Sir Charles(Glasgow)	Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)	Leuty, Thomas Richmond
Cameron, Robert (Durham)	Goddard, Daniel Ford	Lewis, John Herbert
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Gold, Charles	Lloyd-George, David
Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.)	Gourley, Sir E. Temperley	Logan, John William
Clough, Walter Owen	Haldane, Richard Burdon	Macaleese, Daniel
Colville, John	Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir W.	MacDonnell, Dr. M. A. (Qn's C.
M'Crae, George	O'Malley, William	Steadman, William Charles
M'Dermott, Patrick	Palmer, Sir Charles M.(Durham	Stevenson, Francis S.
M'Ghee, Richard	Palmer, George Wm.(Reading)	Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
M'Kenna, Reginald	Pickersgill, Edward Hare	Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)
M'Laren, Charles Benjamin	Power, Patrick Joseph	Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
M'Leod, John	Provand, Andrew Dryburgh	Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Maddison, Fred	Randell, David	Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.
Maden, John Henry	Reckitt, Harold James	Weir, James Galloway
Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand	Rickett, J. Compton	Whiteley, George (Stockport)
Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel)	Roberts, John H. (Denbighsh.)	Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen	Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)	Williams, John Carvell (Notts.
Morgan, W. P. (Merthyr)	Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Morley, Charles (Breconshire)	Schwann, Charles E.	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)	Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)	Yoxall, James Henry
Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Nussey, Thomas Willans	Smith, Samuel (Flint)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.	Souttar, Robinson	Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Causton.
O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)	Spicer, Albert
Oldroyd, Mark	Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.

Clause 4:—

MR. LEWIS

On a point of order I wish to ask whether, if I move the Amendment which stands in my name, it will have the effect of cutting out the Amendment which stands in the name of the hon. Member for Merthyr, which comes next, or whether the hon. Member's Amendment will be saved when you put the Question?

* THE CHAIRMAN

I will put the Amendment in such a way as to safeguard the hon. Member's Amendment.

MR. HERBERT LEWIS

Then I beg to move the Amendment which stands in my name. The effect of the Amendment will be practically to postpone the coming into effect of the Bill until the Royal Commission has reported, and until the Agricultural Rates Act has ceased to exist. The whole subject of local rating will then have to be considered, and a decision applicable to the whole subject can be taken. If this Act is postponed in its operation until the Agricultural Rates Act has expired the country will have an opportunity of thoroughly considering it. If it is a just measure it will, of course, remain, with the assent of the country, upon the Statute Book; if it is an unjust measure, the country will have an opportunity of considering the question of the incidence of local taxation as a whole. I think that everyone admits that a radical reform of local taxation is necessary, and that that question ought to be considered and dealt with as a whole. But the object of my Amendment is to enable the question to be considered as a whole. The grievance—or the alleged grievance—which this Bill has been introduced to remedy has existed for at least 300 years, and we are asked to consider and satisfactorily settle the whole question in three weeks. All I ask in my Amendment is that the matter shall stand over for two years, so that after 300 years the country may have the opportunity of considering whether it is right to make the change or not. What is the use of bringing in a Bill of this sort, the effect of which will only be to last two years? It leaves the clergy themselves in a state of uncertainty. A man receives an addition to his income, and he puts up his expenditure accordingly. At the end of two years it is possible that his income may have to come down again. Under these circumstances it is surely very unwise for the House, following the lead of the hon. and learned Member for Stroud, to plunge into these interim Reports and dangerous experiments without having any clear or adequate notion whether the country in two years' time will sanction the Bill and make it a permanent measure or not. If justice—and this is supposed to be the keynote of this Bill—if justice is to be enacted at all, then let it be enacted for all time and after full consideration, and not after two or three weeks' discussion. I think I have said enough—I do not want to detain the Committee at this hour of the evening—I think I have said enough to show that my Amendment is one of a reasonable character. I know that the Government have made up their minds to reject every Amendment that may be moved, however reasonable. I do not think that they will improve the respect which the country—or some small section of the country—may entertain for this Bill by the action that they are taking. What are we here for? Are we here to discuss Amendments or not? Why did not the Minister for Agriculture or the Leader of the House tell us: "You may discuss this Bill if you like for a week or a fortnight or a month—"

* THE CHAIRMAN

Order, order! That is not relevant to the subject.

MR. LEWIS

I was only proceeding to say with regard to this particular Amendment that I had not any very great hope that it would be accepted. Still, at the same time I commend it to the attention of the Government and of the Committee, in the hope that at the eleventh hour it may be accepted.

Amendment proposed— In page 2, line 3, to leave out from the word 'shall,' to the word 'said,' in line 9, and insert the words, 'not come into operation until the expiration of the.'"—(Mr. Herbert Lewis.)

Question proposed, "That the words of the clause to 'any,' in line 4, stand part of the clause."

MR. D. A. THOMAS

Upon a point of order, I would suggest to you, Sir, that in putting this Amendment you should save not only one which I have upon the Paper, but one which I have handed in in manuscript, the object of which is to prevent the Government from passing this Bill within a stated period.

* THE CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member's Amendment does not come in until line 7.

MR. LONG

The Amendment proposed by the hon. Gentleman is no doubt a reasonable one from his point of view. We were foolish enough to believe that by following the precedent of the Agricultural Rating Act of 1896, we should have received the approbation of the hon. Member opposite and his support in favour of restricted legislation. He does not appear however, to agree to the principle of limiting the Act to two years. The effect of the Amendment would be that at the end of two years the Bill would become permanent in its operation. This proposal appears to be carrying the Bill further than we desire.

The Bill has been introduced as a temporary measure on the recommendation of the Royal Commissioners, and we propose, pending a final settlement of the whole question of local taxation, that a hardship which presses with particular severity on one class of the community should be dealt with in a temporary but effective measure, and I hope the Committee, will reject this very insidious proposal. I suggest to hon. Members, in the interest of the Committee as a whole, that the discussion should be mainly directed to the important and substantial Amendments on the Paper, rather than to those which raise minor questions of interest.

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR

Will the right hon. Gentleman accept any?

MR. LONG

My suggestion was chiefly made in the interest of hon. Members opposite, and on the presumption that they had a real interest in the Amendments appearing in their names on the Paper. If they have no real interest in them, but merely move them to occupy the time of the Committee, then obviously the closure will meet our purpose. I ask the Committee to decide against this Amendment.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

The right hon. Gentleman has made an appeal to us that we shall proceed to discuss the Amendments which appear on the Paper, and no doubt we shall do so. We have plenty of time to do that before the end of the session; it can be done on Monday. The clergy are not in such a hurry to get ther money as all that, and even if they were, there is no rate until September, so there is no need for us to hurry. The right. hon. Gentleman seems to be very much afraid that, if he accepts my hon. friend's Amendment, after two years' consideration, Parliament would not put this Bill into operation. But the right hon. Gentleman says, "Why not do as you did in the Agricultural Rating Act? You then appealed to us to make it only for five years, and then a Royal Commission was appointed to inquire into the whole matter of taxation." That was the mistake which we made in dealing with the Agricultural Rating Act—first of all in voting the money allocated by it on the expectation that the Royal Commission would consider the question relegated to it. But the Commission has not done so. And what we now say in respect of this Bill is, "You shall have the money after you have considered the question, but not before. We shall not give you the money for two years."

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR

I understood the right hon. Gentleman to make a declaration which I am sorry he did not consider earlier, and I should like to ask him, and we on this side of the House would like to know, the precise meaning of his declaration that these Amendments should be discussed shortly, in order that we might consider the more important Amendments. That declaration is extremely reasonable, and we only now desire to know which of what he considers the more important Amendments he is prepared to accept.

MR. LONG

I am afraid the hon. Gentleman entirely misunderstood me. I made the suggestion in the interests of hon. Gentlemen opposite. I thought they would discriminate between them. If they are all important, our position becomes much easier.

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR

If the right hon. Gentleman means that if we concentrate our attention on certain interesting and important Amendments we would have some chance of getting even two or three Amendments accepted, there may be some reason for listening to the suggestion; but if, on the other hand, when those Amendments have had the attention of the Committee, the right hon. Gentleman is going to meet them with the same non possumus, we should only be wasting his time and our own.

* THE CHAIRMAN

I would respectfully invite the Committee to return to the consideration of the Amendment.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

The right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill having made a proposal, I think the Committee ought to be allowed really to understand the nature of the offer that has been made. What I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say was, that there are a certain number of Amendments, some of which are more important than others, and that if we economised the time on the less important, and devoted it to the more important Amendments, that would be far the better course. The Committee would be glad to know what amount of time they will be allowed to apportion between the various Amendments.

MR. LONG

rose.

* THE CHAIRMAN,

speaking amid cries of "Long," again said: I would again respectfully invite the Committee to consider the Amendment before the House.

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR

Before you put the Question, Sir, I must again appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to say what he meant.

* THE CHAIRMAN

That is not relevant to the question before the Committee. I have permitted the hon. Gentleman the Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool and the right hon. Gentleman the member for West Monmouth to make statements because the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill made a statement, but I think the Committee ought to return again to the consideration of the Amendment.

MR. DALZIEL

I propose to return to the Amendment. I do not think the case put forward for the Amendment has been answered by the right hon. Gentleman. The question I was going to put is this: If an injustice exists now and has existed for some time, and if it is the intention of the Bill to remedy that injustice, why is the Government only going to remedy it for two years? Why does not the right hon. Gentleman take the responsibility of making this a permanent measure? It seems to me here is a case for the contention of my hon. friend. We are to have a Report of the Commission, but no one can tell when. I always notice that, when once a Commission is appointed, if the secretary draws a good salary, it takes a very long time to report. Let us wait for the Report of this Commission, and when we have the full facts we shall know how to deal with them.

MR. MADDISON

I support the Amendment because it delays the passing of this measure until the Royal Commission reports, and the Agricultural Rating Act comes to an end. Although the Bill has only been under discussion for two or three days there are already signs that it is viewed with great dissatisfaction in the country. The County Council of the West Riding, containing a majority I believe of gentlemen who hold views similar to those of the hon. Gentlemen opposite, have taken very strong exception to one of the most important provisions in the Bill, and the City Council of Sheffield, where parties are evenly balanced, passed a resolution with only three or four dissentients condemning the Bill. I consider the Amendment is a reasonable one, and I think it is unreasonable on the part of the Government to oppose all these Amendments as they have done, and I think they are doing themselves a great injustice in attempting to rush this Bill.

MR. LAMBERT

I should like to know whether this Bill is on all fours with the Agricultural Rating Bill of 1896. Will it apply to the new works of the parish councils, which the Agricultural Rating Act did not?

SIR R. B. FINLAY

It will apply to all rates without exception.

MR. LABOUCHERE (Northampton)

This Bill has been sprung upon us, and neither we nor the country have had sufficient time to consider its effect. My hon. friend's proposition is that it should not become operative for two years, and that after that time it should become permanent. If I were perfectly certain we should win the next General Election—I think we shall, but we can never be absolutely certain on these matters—I should support that, but if we lose the General Election we shall have this Bill for another six years, and the question is whether we had not better lose the money for two years and then let the Act lapse, or whether we should pay the money permanently.

* LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE (Wiltshire, Cricklade)

Before the Question is put I wish to ask, seeing that the Agricultural Rating Act, 1896, intentionally or not, does not apply to the parish council rate in regard to the repayment from the Local Taxation Fund, though it applies to other rates, whether it is intended that this Act should have attached to it the same exclusion or exemption.

SIR. R. B. FINLAY

The answer to that really turns upon the question of who are the spending authorities. The spending authorities are mentioned in the Agricultural Rating Act, 1896. We have no such definition here, because the scheme of the Bill in that respect is different from the Act of 1896. There is no fixed sum paid yearly during the continuance of the Act for authorities defined as spending authorities, but the condition is that half of all rates, with the exceptions specified in the clause under consideration, should be borne by the incumbent, and the other half paid in the manner prescribed.

* LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE

But the incumbent in this case will obtain the benefit of a reduction of half the parish council rate?

SIR R. B. FINLAY

Certainly.

MR. LOGAN (Leicestershire, Harborough)

The right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill said that those of us who voted for this Amendment would be voting for making the Bill a dummy Bill. I do not understand that to be the object of my hon. friend. His object is that during the next two years the country shall have an opportunity of realising the provisions of this Bill as they seem to have been realised inn certain parts of the country. At the expiration of that time I believe that no Government will have the nerve to bring in a similar Bill. By that time the nation will have realised that this is a Bill to relieve parsons from rates which they do not pay. There is no man who will under this Bill have half his rates paid for him in the future, but was allowed when his stipend was settled the full value of the rates which he would have to pay. Therefore I am absolutely accurate when I say that this is a Bill to relieve parsons of rates which they have not got to pay. On that ground I shall have the very greatest pleasure indeed in supporting my hon. friend in the Division Lobby in endeavouring to give the country an opportunity of realising what is the object of the Government in bringing in this iniquitous measure.

MR. CAWLEY (Lancashire, Prestwich)

This Amendment will give the country an opportunity of considering the measure—

* THE CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member is anticipating his Third Reading speech.

MR. CAWLEY

I will not pursue that point. But this Amendment will give the country a great chance of really considering the question thoroughly. When this measure was sprung upon the House very few Members on either side really understood the question. We on this side of the House have had a chance of being educated by our colleagues. Members on the other side have had the same chance of being educated—whether or not they have taken advantage of it I do not know. What I would point out is that the country is being educated by the Debates in this House, and if they have a chance of two years' education they may come to a different conclusion than the majority in the House anticipate. Therefore, I say that the majority in this House do not represent the majority in the country.

* MR. CARVELL WILLIAMS

I should like the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill to tell us on what ground the operation of this measure is to be limited to the continuance of the Agricultural Rating Act of 1896. That is a piece of information which has not been given throughout the discussion. The Agricultural Rating Act was, beyond all question, due to agricultural depression, but we have been told again and again that this Bill has no connection whatever with agricultural depression. That being the case, why should this limitation be imposed? It is utterly inconsistent with all the arguments which have been used in support of the Bill. In truth, the course pursued by the Government has been a mass of inconsistencies from beginning to end.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 244; Noes, 148. (Division List, No. 259.)

AYES.
Allsopp, Hon. George	Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Archdale, Edward Mervyn	Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry	Firbank, Joseph Thomas
Arnold, Alfred	Charrington, Spencer	Fisher, William Hayes
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.	Chelsea, Viscount	Flower, Ernest
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Clare, Octavius Leigh	Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)
Bailey, James (Walworth)	Clarke, Sir Edw.(Plymouth)	Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)
Baillie, James E. B.(Inverness)	Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Gibbons, J. Lloyd
Baird, John George Alexander	Coddington, Sir William	Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans)
Balcarres, Lord	Coghill, Douglas Harry	Gilliat, John Saunders
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r	Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds	Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse	Goldsworthy, Major-General
Banbury, Frederick George	Compton, Lord Alwyne	Gordon, Hon. John Edward
Barnes, Frederic Gorell	Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)	Gorst, Rt. Hon.Sir John Eldon
Barry, Rt Hn A H. Smith-(Hunts	Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W.	Goschen, Rt Hn G. J (St George's
Bartley, George C. T.	Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Edw. T. D.	Goschen, George J. (Sussex)
Barton, Dunbar Plunket	Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge	Goulding, Edward Alfred
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin	Cripps, Charles Alfred	Graham, Henry Robert
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol)	Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)	Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants)	Cross, Herb. Shepherd(Bolton)	Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)
Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull	Cruddas, William Donaldson	Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe	Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Gretton, John
Bentinck, Lord Henry C.	Curzon, Viscount	Gull, Sir Cameron
Beresford, Lord Charles	Dalkeith, Earl of	Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo.
Bigwood, James	Davies, Sir Hor. D.(Chatham)	Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. Wm.
Bill, Charles	Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.	Hanson, Sir Reginald
Blundell, Colonel Henry C.	Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Hardy, Laurence
Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme	Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon	Hare, Thomas Leigh
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Dorington, Sir John Edward	Heaton, John Henniker
Bousfield, William Robert	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Helder, Augustus
Brassey, Albert	Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S.	Henderson, Alexander
Brookfield, A. Montagu	Doxford, William Theodore	Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter
Bullard, Sir Harry	Drucker, A.	Hill,Sir Edward Stock(Bristol)
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.	Hoard, Edw Brodie (Hampstead
Butcher, John George	Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. Hart	Hobhouse, Henry
Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs.)	Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas	Holland, Hon. Lionel R. (Bow)
Cavendish, V. C. W. (D'rbyshire	Fardell, Sir T. George	Hornby, Sir William Henry
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward	Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)	Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir. J. (Manc.)	Houston, R. P.
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.	Field Admiral (Eastbourne)	Howell, William Tudor
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn.J.(Birm.	Finch, George H.	Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn
Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-	Milton, Viscount	Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybridge)
Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies	Monk, Charles James	Simeon, Sir Barrington
Jebb, Richard Claverhouse	Moon, Edward Robert Pacy	Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick	More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)	Smith, J. Parker (Lanarks.)
Jenkins, Sir John Jones	Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh.	Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)	Morrell, George Herbert	Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)
Jolliffe, Hon. H. George	Morrison, Walter	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Kemp, George	Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.	Mount, William George	Stock, James Henry
Kenyon, James	Muntz, Philip A.	Strauss, Arthur
Kimber, Henry	Murray, Rt. Hon. A.G.(Bute)	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
King, Sir Henry Seymour	Murray, Charles J.(Coventry)	Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Lafone, Alfred	Murray, Col.Wyndham (Bath)	Sutherland, Sir Thomas
Laurie, Lieut.-General	Nicholson, William Graham	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Lawrence, Wm. F.(Liverpool)	Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford	Thorburn, Walter
Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)	O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens	Thornton, Percy M.
Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry)	Pender, Sir James	Tollemache, Henry James
Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. Edw. H.	Percy, Earl	Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray
Leighton, Stanley	Pierpoint, Robert	Tritton, Charles Ernest
Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset)	Pilkington, R.(Lancs, Newton)	Valentia, Viscount
Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swans.)	Platt-Higgins, Frederick	Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H.
Lockwood, Lt.-Colonel A.R.	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp	Wanklyn, James Leslie
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward	Ward, Hon. Robert A. (Crewe)
Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham	Purvis, Robert	Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E. (Kent)
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverpool	Quilter, Sir Cuthbert	Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller	Rankin, Sir James	Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Lorne, Marquess of	Rasch, Major Frederic Carne	Williams, J. Powell-(Brim.)
Lowe, Francis William	Rentoul, James Alexander	Willox, Sir John Archibald
Lowles, John	Richards, Henry Charles	Wilson, J. W. (Wercestersh., N.)
Loyd, Archie Kirkman	Richardson, Sir T.(Hartlepool)	Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)
Lucas-Shadwell, William	Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.	Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred	Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson	Wylie, Alexander
Macartney, W. G. Ellison	Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)	Wyndham, George
Macdona, John Cumming	Round, James	Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H.
MacIver, David (Liverpool)	Royds, Clement Molyneux	Wyvill, Marmaduke d'Arcy
M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)	Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)	Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Malcolm, Ian	Rutherford, John	Younger, William
Martin, Richard Biddulph	Samuel, Harry S.(Limehouse)
Melville, Beresford Valentine	Saunderson, Rt.Hon. Col. E.J.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas. John	Savory, Sir Joseph
Mildmay, Francis Bingham	Seely, Charles Hilton
Milner, Sir Frederick George	Sharpe, William Edward T.
NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Condon, Thomas Joseph	Hedderwick, Thos. Chas. H.
Allan, William (Gateshead)	Crilly, Daniel	Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H.
Ambrose, Robert	Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)	Holland, Wm. H. (York, W. R.
Asher, Alexander	Dalziel, James Henry	Horniman, Frederick John
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Hy.	Davies, M. V.-(Cardigan)	Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.
Atherley-Jones, L.	Davitt, Michael	Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)
Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire)	Dillon, John	Jacoby, James Alfred
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)	Donelan, Captain A.	Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez E.
Barlow, John Emmott	Doogan, P. C.	Joicey, Sir James
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Duckworth, James	Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea)
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.	Dunn, Sir William	Jones, W. (Carnarvonshire)
Billson, Alfred	Edwards, Owen Morgan	Kearley, Hudson, E.
Bolton, Thomas Dolling	Ellis, John Edward	Kinloch, Sir J. G. Smyth
Broadhurst, Henry	Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)	Labouchere, Henry
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson	Evans, Sir Francis H. (South'ton	Langley, Batty
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Evershed, Sydney	Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland)
Burns, John	Fenwick, Charles	Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)
Burt, Thomas	Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond	Leng Sir John
Buxton, Sydney Charles,	Flynn, James Christopher	Leuty, Thomas Richmond
Caldwell, James	Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)	Lloyd-George, David
Cameron, Sir C. (Glasgow)	Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Logan, John William
Cameron, Robert (Durham)	Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.	Lough, Thomas
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Goddard, Daniel Ford	Macaleese, Daniel
Causton, Richard knight	Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley	MacDonnell, Dr M A.(Queen'sC
Cawley, Frederick	Gurdon, Sir Wm. Brampton	M'Arthur, W. (Cornwall)
Channing, Francis Allston	Haldane, Richard Burdon	M'Crae, George
Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.)	Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm.	M'Dermott, Patrick
Clough, Walter Owen	Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-	M'Ewan, William
Colville, John	Hazell, Walter	M'Ghee, Richard
M'Kenna, Reginald	Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)	Stevenson, Francis S.
M'Laren, Charles Benjamin	Pickersgill, Edward Hare	Stuart, James (Shoreditch)
M'Leod, John	Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs. S W	Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Maddison, Fred.	Power, Patrick Joseph	Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)
Maden, John Henry	Price, Robert John	Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand	Priestly, Briggs (Yorks.)	Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)
Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel)	Provand, Andrew Dryburgh	Weir, James Galloway
Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen	Randell, David	Whitely, George (Stockport)
Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr	Reckitt, Harold James	Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Morley, Charles (Breconshire)	Rickett, J. Compton	Williams, John Carvell (Notts.
Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)	Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Morton, E. J. C.(Devonport)	Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Moulton, John Fletcher	Samuel, J.(Stockton-on-Tees)	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)	Wilson, John (Govan)
Nussey, Thomas Willans	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)	Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudders.
O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal)	Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)	Woods, Samuel
O'Connor, James (Wicklow,W.	Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire)	Yoxall, James Henry
O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)	Smith, Samuel (Flint)
Oldroyd, Mark	Souttar, Robinson	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
O'Malley, William	Spicer, Albert	Mr. Herbert Lewis and Mr. Lambert.
Palmer, Sir Charles M.(Durh'm	Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.
Palmer, George Wm.(Reading)	Steadman, William Charles

MR. D. A. THOMAS

I move this Amendment with a degree of diffidence, because of what has fallen from the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill, and because, in his august presence, I am not sure that any Amendment of mine will be regarded as important. Earlier in the evening he asked me whether I was serious. In moving this Amendment I assure him and the Committee that I am as serious and sincere and conscientious as the right hon. Gentleman himself could possibly be in promoting the Bill. I am not going to say anything about his impartiality, because I am sure the Chairman would rule me out of order. I wish to thank the hon. and learned Member the Solicitor-General for acknowledging that he recognised that the Amendments moved from this side of the House were not moved with any intention of prolonging the proceedings on this Bill. (Laughter.) Hon. Members may laugh, but the Solicitor-General said that, and, as far as I could see, with all seriousness. To come to this Amendment, I moved a similar one upon the Agricultural Rating Bill of 1896. It was then supported with almost unanimity on this side, and received some support on the other side of the House, while in the country it received a still larger measure of support. That being so, I venture to think that an Amendment exempting the poor-rate should receive infinitely more support in relation to this particular Bill than in the case of the Agricultural Rating Act. There can be no question at all that, at any rate up to the days of Elizabeth—in fact, I challenge hon. Members to deny that in the first instance— the relief of the poor came out of the tithe. It was not a question of paying a small rate for that purpose, but at the very least one-third of the tithe went to the relief of the poor. If that was the case at the origin of the tithe and for many centuries after, I say that even now the question of the rate for the relief of the poor ought to be exempted from a measure which proposes to relieve parsons from half the rates which they now pay. The grounds for my motion are very substantial, and with all seriousness I venture to commend it to the Committee.

Amendment proposed— In page 2, line 4, after the word 'except' to insert the words 'any rate levied in relief of the poor or.'"—(Mr. D. A. Thomas.)

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

MR. LONG

I hope I may be allowed to assure the hon. Gentleman that when I referred to the seriousness of his previous Amendment I did not mean to throw the slightest doubt upon the sincerity of his motives. The present Amendment, I frankly admit, is a very substantial one—substantial because, if carried, it would destroy at least one-half of the effect of the Bill. It has been advanced and recommended to the Committee in a manner totally different from that which I had anticipated, and therefore the remarks I had prepared in answer to it are scarcely applicable. The hon. Gentleman has frankly told us that he casts aside altogether the historical arguments to which hon. Gentlemen on the other side have attached so much importance during previous discussions. He remarked upon the importance of the circumstances up to Queen Elizabeth, but what importance he attaches to the period since Queen Elizabeth's time I do not know. At any rate, he abrogates the whole historical argument.

MR. D. A. THOMAS

Oh, no!

MR. LONG

I admit that this is a substantial argument—that is to say, it raises a question which goes to the very foundation of the whole problem of the readjustment of local taxation. I am not casting any doubts upon the bona fides of the hon. Member or the sincerity of his motives in bringing forward Amendments, but this is an Amendment practically to the Second Reading, because it raises the whole question of the historical liability of certain classes of property to rates. Whatever may have been the case for the historical argument which has been urged with so much force by gentlemen opposite, Parliament has to realise that there has been a complete change in the capacity of different classes of property to bear the burden of local rates, and that, whatever may have been the case in the days when these burdens were created, at the present time the burden is unjustly distributed and the inequality ought to be redressed. To exclude from a measure of reform such as this the poor rate—which is probably at least half, and in some cases more than half—would be to make a farce of any reform of local taxation. Therefore, I think I am justified in saying that it is unnecessary and undesirable that we should go at this period of the Debate, on an Amendment in Committee, into the whole question, historical or otherwise, and I am justified, I think, in asking the Committee to reject this Amendment on the ground that in the first place, we have proved that the incidence of local taxation is unjust and unfair; and in the second place no attempt has been made to meet the argument that if this Amendment were carried it would reduce the relief in a degree for which there is no justification whatever. I therefore ask the Committee t6 resist this Amendment, and I hope they will do so, because we have so far established the case for those whom we seek to relieve.

MR. SAMUEL EVANS

I am sure the House will be very sorry that, by reason of the capital speech made by my hon. friend who moved this Amendment, the right hon. Gentleman has not been able to put before the House the observations which he had prepared in answer to this proposal. I suppose that is the reason why the right hon. Gentleman did not, so far as I could gather, adduce one single argument why this poor rate should be excused to one class of persons. He said my hon. friend has turned his back upon all ancient authorities; but he had done nothing of the kind, for he had not had time to get them out. Here is a book from which I should like to quote one passage. It is a book written by the hon. and learned Member for Stroud, and in it he invites us to go back to ancient history, and this is what the hon. and learned Member says: During the first ages of Christianity —and I hope that goes back far enough to please the right hon. Gentleman-— Clergymen were supported by the voluntary offerings of their flock. It is a pity that that is not so now. Continuing the quotation, the hon. and learned Member says: But this being a precarious existence, the ecclesiastics in every country in Europe claimed, and, what is more important, in the course of time established, a right to the tenth part of the produce of the land. That is the origin of tithe in the early ages of Christianity. Then we have got this Report which is the foundation for this Bill, and it deals with the subject in extenso. In that Report the Commissioners go back further than the first ages of Christianity, for they go back to Leviticus. I venture to call the attention of the Committee to Clause 4 of the Report, which states that tithes were devoted to the maintenance of the church fabric, the use of the bishop and incumbent, and also: To some extent, to the feeding of the poor and the entertainment of the stranger. Apparently that "some extent" has vanished entirely now; and yet this is the rate which you are proposing to take, to the extent of one half of it, from the shoulders of those whose only excuse—if excuse they have—for taking the tithes at all is, that out of this rate they were, to the extent of one-third, willing to maintain the poor. I am inclined to cite one more authority, more particularly as I now see the First Lord of the Admiralty in his place. Hitherto, I think the only part which the right hon. Gentleman has taken in these discussions is the part of walking through the Lobby. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to call the attention of the Committee to some cogent observations made by him with respect to the poor rates. This is what he said: I rejoice to say that it seems that the turning point has arrived, and unless the House should take the dangerous step of supplementing the poor rates by grants from the Consolidated Fund, there may be some hopes of the poor rates being reduced. But I am certain that no step is more likely to increase our expenditure than if the House was to open the flood-gates of the Consolidated Fund. Those are opinions which the right hon. Gentleman expressed when he was in the prime of his manhood, and, so far as we

are concerned, we adhere to those very liberal opinions which he then expressed. No doubt the Committee will be glad of any enlightenment from the point of view of the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty, and we should like to hear some reason for his change of opinion. Unless he gives us some very good reason, we shall be forced to go into the Lobby in obedience to the call of my hon. friend the Member for Merthyr Tydvil. While the clergyman is to be relieved, the poor farmer has to pay his rates in full, and the clergyman is also being relieved of his duty to the poor. Therefore I think my hon. friend was justified in bringing forward this Amendment, for he is only putting forward opinions which were once held by the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty himself.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 149; Noes, 267. (Division List, No. 260.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Dunn, Sir William	Lloyd-George, David
Allan, William (Gateshead)	Edwards, Owen Morgan	Logan, John William
Ambrose, Robert	Ellis, John Edward	Lough, Thomas
Asher, Alexander	Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)	Macaleese, Daniel
Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry	Evans, Sir F. H. (South'ton)	MacDonnell, Dr. M. A (Qu'n's C
Atherley-Jones, L.	Evershed, Sydney	M'Crae, George
Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire)	Fenwick, Charles	M'Dermott, Patrick
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)	Ferguson, R. C. Munro(Leith)	M'Ewan, William
Barlow, John Emmott	Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond	M'Ghee, Richard
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Flynn, James Christopher	M'Kenna, Reginald
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.	Foster, Sir W. (Derby Co.)	M'Laren, Charles Benjamin
Billson, Alfred	Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	M'Leod, John
Bolton, Thomas Dolling	Goddard, Daniel Ford	Maddison, Fred
Broadhurst, Henry	Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley	Maden, John Henry
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson	Gurdon, Sir Wm. Brampton	Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Haldane, Richard Burdon	Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel)
Burns, John	Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm.	Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)
Burt, Thomas	Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-	Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr
Buxton, Sydney Charles	Hazell, Walter	Morley, Charles (Breconshire)
Caldwell, James	Hedderwick, Thomas Chas. H.	Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose
Cameron, Robert (Durham)	Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H.	Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Holland, W. H. (York, W.R.)	Moulton, John Fletcher
Causton, Richard Knight	Horniman, Frederick John	Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Cawley, Frederick	Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.	Nussey, Thomas Willans
Channing, Francis Allston	Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)	O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.
Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.)	Jacoby, James Alfred	O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Clough, Walter Owen	Joicey, Sir James	Oldroyd, Mark
Colville, John	Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea)	O'Malley, William
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)	Palmer, Sir Charles M.(Durham
Crilly, Daniel	Kearley, Hudson E.	Palmer, George Wm.(Reading
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)	Kilbride, Denis	Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)
Dalziel, James Henry	Kinloch, Sir John G. Smyth	Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan	Lambert, George	Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs, SW
Davitt, Michael	Langley, Batty	Power, Patrick Joseph
Dewar, Arthur	Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land	Price, Robert John
Dillon, John	Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)	Priestley, Briggs (Yorks)
Donelan, Captain A.	Leng, Sir John	Randell, David
Doogan, P.C.	Leuty, Thomas Richmond	Reckitt, Harold James
Duckworth, James	Lewis, John Herbert	Rickett, J. Compton
Roberts, John H. (Denbighsh.	Stevenson, Francis S.	Wilson, Hy. J. (York, W. R.)
Robertson, Edmund(Dundee)	Stuart, James (Shoreditch)	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)	Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)	Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.	Wilson, John (Govan)
Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)	Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)	Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh N.)
Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)	Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.)	Woodhouse, Sir, J. T. (Hud'sfield
Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.)	Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.	Woods, Samuel
Smith, Samuel (Flint)	Wedderburn, Sir William	Yoxall, James Henry
Souttar, Robinson	Weir, James Galloway
Spicer, Albert	Whiteley, George(Stockport)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.	Whittaker, Thomas Palmer	Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur.
Steadman, William Charles	Williams, John Carvell (Notts.
NOES.
Allsopp, Hon. George	Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.	Hare, Thomas Leigh
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge	Heaton, John Henniker
Archdale, Edward Mervyn	Cripps, Charles Alfred	Helder, Augustus
Arnold, Alfred	Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)	Henderson, Alexander
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.	Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton	Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter
Atkinson, Right Hon. John	Cruddas, William Donaldson	Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol)
Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitznoy	Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead)
Bailey, James (Walworth)	Curzon, Viscount	Hobhouse, Henry
Baillie, J. E. B. (Inverness)	Dalkeith, Earl of	Hulland, Hon. L. R. (Bow)
Baird, John George Alexander	Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Hornby, Sir William Henry
Balcarres, Lord	Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chat'm	Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(Man.)	Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.	Houston, R. P.
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W.(Leeds)	Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Howell, William Tudor
Banbury, Frederick George	Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon	Hozier, Hon. James H. Cecil
Barnes, Frederic Gorell	Dorington, Sir John Edward	Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn
Barry, Rt. Hn. A.H.S.-(Hunts	Doughty, George	Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice.
Barry, Sir F. T.(Windsor)	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A Akers-	Jackson, Rt. Hon. W. Lawies.
Bartley, George C. T.	Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S.	Jebb, Richard Claverhouse
Barton, Dunbar Plunket	Doxford, William Theodore	Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick
Bathurst, Hon. Allen B.	Drucker, A.	Jenkins, Sir John Jones
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Brstol)	Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.	Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)
Beckett, Ernest William	Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Hart	Joliffe, Hon. H. George
Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull	Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas	Kemp, George
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe	Fardell, Sir T. George	Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H.
Bentinck, Lord Henry C.	Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn E.	Kenyon, James
Beresford, Lord Charles	Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J.(Manc'r	Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)	Kimber, Henry
Bigwood, James	Finch, George H.	King, Sir Henry Seymour
Bill, Charles	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Lafone, Alfred
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Firbank, Joseph Thomas	Lauri, Lieut.-General
Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme	Fisher, William Hayes	Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Fison, Frederick William	Lea, Sir Thos. (Londonderry)
Bousfield, William Robert	Flower, Ernest	Lecky, Rt. Hon. William E. H.
Brassey, Albert	Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)	Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)	Leighton, Stanley
Brookfield, A. Montagu	Gedge, Sydney	Llewellyn, Evan H. (Som'set.)
Bullard, Sir Harry	Gibbons, J. Lloyd	Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swan.)
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond.	Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.
Butcher, John George	Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans	Loder, Gerald Walter Ersk.
Carlile, William Walter	Gilliat, John Saunders	Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)
Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs.)	Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (L'pool.)
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire	Goldsworthy, Major-General	Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Gordon, Hon. John Edward	Lorne, Marquess of
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)	Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon	Lowe, Francis William
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.	Goschen, Rt Hn G. J. (St George's	Lowles, John
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.	Goschen, George J.(Sussex)	Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r	Goulding, Edward Alfred	Lucas-Shadwell, William
Charrington, Spencer	Graham, Henry Robert	Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred
Chelsea, Viscount	Gray, Ernest (West Ham)	Macartney, W. G. Ellison
Clare, Octavius Leigh	Green, Walfort D (Wednesbury	Macdona, John Cummnig
Clarke, Sir Edward(Plymouth	Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)	MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Cochrane, Hon.Thos. H. A. E.	Gretton, John	M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)
Coddington, Sir William	Greville, Hon. Ronald	Malcolm, Ian
Coghill, Douglas Harry	Gull, Sir Cameron	Martin, Richard Biddulph
Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles	Melville, Beresford Valentine
Collings, Rt, Hon. Jesse	Halsey, Thomas Frederick	Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Colomb, Sir J. Charles Ready	Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo.	Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas John.
Compton, Lord Alwyne	Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. Wm.	Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)	Hanson, Sir Reginald	Milner, Sir Frederick George
Cornwallis, Fiennes S. W.	Hardy, Laurence	Milton, Viscount
Milward, Colonel Victor	Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester).
Monk, Charles James	Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W.	Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf. Univ.
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy	Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson	Thorburn, Walter
More, R. Jasper (Shropshire)	Robertson, Herbert(Hackney)	Thornton, Percy M.
Morgan, Hn. Fred (Monm'thsh.	Round, James	Tollemache, Henry James
Morrell, George Herbert	Royds, Clement Molyneux	Tomlinson, W. E. Murray
Morrison, Walter	Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)	Tritton, Charles Ernest
Morton, Arthur H.A.(Deptford	Rutherford, John	Valentia, Viscount
Mount, William George	Ryder, John Herbert Dudley	Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard
Muntz, Philip A.	Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)	Wanklyn, James Leslie
Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G.(Bute)	Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles	Ward, Hon. Robert A.(Crewe)
Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)	Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. E. J.	Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E.(Kent)
Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)	Savory, Sir Joseph	Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Nicholson, William Graham	Seely, Charles Hilton	Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon
Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford	Seton-Karr, Henry	Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd
O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens	Sharpe, William Edward T.	Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Pender, Sir James	Sidebottom, T. H.(Stalybr.)	Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm
Penn, John	Simeon, Sir Barrington	Willox, Sir John Archibald
Percy, Earl	Skewes-Cox, Thomas	Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
Pierpoint, Robert	Smith, J. P.(Lanarkshire)	Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton	Smith, Hn. W. F. D.(Strand)	Wylie, Alexander
Platt-Higgins, Frederick	Stanley, Hn. A.(Ormskirk)	Wyndham, George
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)	Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward	Stephens, Henry Charles	Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Purvis, Robert	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M.	Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Quilter, Sir Cuthbert	Stock, James Henry	Younger William
Rankin, Sir James	Strauss, Arthur
Rasch, Major Frederic Carne	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Rentoul, James Alexander	Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier	Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Richards, Henry Charles	Sutherland, Sir Thomas

MR. D. A. THOMAS

My object in moving this Amendment is to bring the Bill into conformity with Standing Order No. 45. If this Amendment is accepted, I propose at a later stage to move a new clause, which I have handed in, providing for the precise duration of the Act. This being only a temporary Bill, during the continuation of the Agricultural Rating Act, it is a measure of a temporary character, and certainly falls within the provisions of Standing Order No. 45. I know it will be argued that the Agricultural Rating Act did not comply with the Standing Orders. I do not see, because an oversight occurred in that Act, that it should be taken as a precedent. If we have Standing Orders, for Heaven's sake let us obey them. This Standing Order was passed in the year 1849, and I presume it was passed for some good and sufficient reason. I do not want the discussion on the Committee stage prolonged, and I will not delay the Committee from coming to a decision.

Another Amendment proposed— In page 2, line 7, to leave out from the word 'half' to the end of the clause."—(Mr. David Thomas.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

MR. LONG

I understand the hon. Gentleman moves this Amendment in order to establish his contention that the first clause of the Bill is not in accordance with the Standing Order. Whether the clause is or is not in accordance with the Standing Order, rests with a higher authority than myself. This Bill was drawn with a full knowledge of the provisions of that Standing Order, and every possible step was taken by the framers of the Bill to see that the Standing Order was complied with. I want to point out to the hon. Gentleman that he is adopting a form of Amendment which would be, to say the least of it, extremely inconvenient. He proposes to remove the words which contain the date when the Act will come into force. It is absolutely necessary that the date should be stated when the new rating system comes into operation.

MR. D. A. THOMAS

I have provided for that by a new clause.

MR. LONG

Yes, but I am dealing with the hon. Member's Amendment as it stands. Whether he would be able afterwards to secure the introduction of other words is a totally different thing, which we cannot discuss at the present time. It is sufficient for me, as the Minister in charge of the Bill, to say that every step necessary was taken in order to procure that the framing of the Bill was in compliance with the Standing Orders.

MR. D. A. THOMAS

As a point of order, Mr. Lowther, I wish to ask you whether the Bill is in compliance with the Standing Order.

* THE CHAIRMAN

That is not a question for me to decide. The Bill in

its present state was referred to the Committee. If there was anything improper in the shape of the Bill, objection ought to have been taken before the Bill was referred to the Committee. The Second Reading of the Bill cures any defect.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 274; Noes, 152. (Division List, No. 261.)

AYES.
Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden	Compton, Lord Alwyne	Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Allsopp, Hon. George	Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)	Halsey, Thomas Frederick
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W.	Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord George
Archdale, Edward Mervyn	Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.	Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.
Arnold, Alfred	Cox, Irwin Edward B.	Hanson, Sir Reginald
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.	Cripps, Charles Alfred	Hardy, Laurence
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)	Hare, Thomas Leigh
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy	Cross, Herbert S.(Bolton)	Heaton, John Henniker
Bailey, James (Walworth)	Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Helder, Augustus
Baillie, James E.B.(Inverness)	Curzon, Viscount	Henderson, Alexander
Baird, John George Alexander	Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh	Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter
Balcarres, Lord	Dalkeith, Earl of	Hill, Sir Edwd. Stock (Bristol)
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)	Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampste'd
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W.(Leeds)	Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)	Hobhouse, Henry
Banbury, Frederick George	Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.	Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow)
Barnes, Frederic Gorell	Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Hornby, Sir William Henry
Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts	Dixon-Hartland, Sir Frd. Dixon	Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Barry, Sir Francis T.(Windsor)	Dorington, Sir John Edward	Houston, R. P.
Bartley, George C. T.	Doughty, George	Howell, William Tudor
Barton, Dunbar Plunket	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil
Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin	Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S.	Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn
Beach, Rt Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol)	Doxford, William Theodore	Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-
Beckett, Ernest William	Drucker, A.	Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies
Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull	Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.	Jebb, Richard Claverhouse
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe	Dyke, Rt Hn. Sir William Hart	Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick
Bentinck, Lord Henry C.	Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas	Jenkins, Sir John Jones
Beresford, Lord Charles	Fardell, Sir T. George	Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edwd.	Jolliffe, Hon. H. George
Bigwood, James	Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r	Kemp, George
Bill, Charles	Field, Admiral(Eastbourne)	Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir J. H.
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Finch, George H.	Kenyon, James
Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Firbank, Joseph Thomas	Kimber, Henry
Bousfield, William Robert	Fisher, William Hayes	King, Sir Henry Seymour
Brassey, Albert	Fison, Frederick William	Lafone, Alfred
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Flower, Ernest	Laurie, Lieut.-General
Brookfield, A. Montagu	Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)	Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)
Ballard, Sir Harry	Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)	Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Galloway, William Johnson	Lecky, Rt. Hn. William E. H.
Butcher, John George	Gedge, Sydney	Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)
Carlile, William Walter	Gibbons, J. Lloyd	Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)	Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond.	Leighton, Stanley
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbys.)	Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)	Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset)
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Gilliat, John Saunders	Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'nsea
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)	Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick	Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.	Goldsworthy, Major-General	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Chamberlain, Rt.Hn.J.(Birm.	Gordon, Hon. John Edward	Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r	Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Livep'l)
Charrington, Spencer	Goschen, Rt Hn G. J. (St George	Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller
Chelsea, Viscount	Goschen, George J.(Sussex)	Lorne, Marquess of
Clare, Octavius Leigh	Goulding, Edward Alfred	Lowe, Francis William
Clarke, Sir E. (Plymouth)	Graham, Henry Robert	Lowles, John
Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.	Gray, Ernest (West Ham)	Loyd, Archie Kirkman
Coddington, Sir William	Green, Walford D. (Wedn'sbury	Lucas-Shadwell, William
Coghill, Douglas Harry	Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.	Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred
Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Gretton, John	Macartney, W. G. Ellison
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse	Greville, Hon. Ronald	Macdona, John Cumming
Colomb, Sir John Charles R.	Gull, Sir Cameron	MacIver, David (Liverpool)
M'Iver, Sir L. (Edinburgh,W.)	Quilter, Sir Cuthbert	Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Malcolm, Ian	Rankin, Sir James	Sutherland, Sir Thomas
Martin, Richard Biddulph	Rasch, Major Frederic Carne	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Melville, Beresford Valentine	Rentoul, James Alexander	Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G.(Ox.Un.)
Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.	Richards, Henry Charles	Thorburn, Walter
Milbank, Sir Powlett C. John	Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)	Thornton, Percy M.
Mildmay, Francis Bingham	Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matt. W.	Tollemache, Henry James
Milner, Sir Frederick George	Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson	Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray
Milton, Viscount	Robertson, Herbert(Hackney)	Tritton, Charles Ernest
Milward, Colonel Victor	Round, James	Valentia, Viscount
Monk, Charles James	Royds, Clement Molyneux	Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H.
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy	Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)	Wanklyn, James Leslie
More, R. Jasper (Shropshire)	Rutherford, John	Ward, Hon. Robert A.(Crewe)
Morgan, Hon. F. (Monm'thsh.)	Ryder, John Herbert Dudley	Warde, Lieut.-Col.C.E.(Kent)
Morrell, George Herbert	Samuel, Harry S.(Limehouse)	Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Morrison, Walter	Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles	Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Morton, Arthur H.A.(Deptford	Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Ed. J.	Wharton, Rt. Hon. J. Lloyd.
Mount, William George	Savory, Sir Joseph	Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Muntz, Philip A.	Seely, Charles Hilton	Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)
Murray, Rt. Hon. A.G.(Bute)	Seton-Karr, Henry	Williams, Jos. Powell-(Birm.)
Murray, Charles J.(Coventry)	Sharpe, William Edward T.	Willox, Sir John Archibald
Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)	Sidebottom, T. Harrop (Stalybr.	Wilson, John(Falkirk)
Nicholson, William Graham	Simeon, Sir Barrington	Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)
Nicol, Donald Ninian	Skewes-Cox, Thomas	Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)
Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford	Smith, James P.(Lanarks.)	Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens	Smith, Hn. W. F. D.(Strand)	Wylie, Alexander
Pender, Sir James	Spencer, Ernest	Wyndham, George
Penn, John	Stanley, Hn. A.(Ormskirk)	Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Percy, Earl	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)	Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Pierpoint, Rich.(Lancs, Newton	Stephens, Henry Charles	Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Platt-Higgins, Frederick	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.	Younger, William
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp	Stock, James Henry	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther
Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward	Strauss, Arthur
Purvis, Robert	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Duckworth, James	Leese, Sir J. E. (Accrington)
Allison, Robert Andrew	Dunn, Sir William	Leng, Sir John
Ambrose, Robert	Edwards, Owen Morgan	Leuty, Thomas Richmond
Asher, Alexander	Ellis, John Edward	Lewis, John Herbert
Atherley-Jones, L.	Evans, Sir F. H.(South'ton)	Lloyd-George, David
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)	Evershed, Sydney	Logan, John William
Barlow, John Emmott	Fenwick, Charles	Lough, Thomas
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Ferguson, R. C. M.(Leith)	MacAleese, Daniel
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.	Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond	MacDonnell, Dr M A. (Queen's C
Billson, Alfred	Flynn, James Christopher	M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)
Bolton, Thomas Dolling	Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)	M'Crae, George
Broadhurst, Henry	Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	M'Dermott, Patrick
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson	Gladstone, Rt. Hon. H. John	M'Ewan, William
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James	Goddard, Daniel Ford	M'Ghee, Richard
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Gourley, Sir E. Temperley	M'Kenna, Reginald
Burns, John	Gurdon, Sir Wm. Brampton	M'Laren, Charles Benjamin
Burt, Thomas	Haldane, Richard Burdon	M'Leod, John
Caldwell, James	Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm.	Maddison, Fred.
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-	Maden, John Henry
Causton, Richard Knight	Hazell, Walter	Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand
Cawley, Frederick	Hedderwick, Thomas C. H.	Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel)
Channing, Francis Allston	Holland, W. H.(York, W.R.)	Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen
Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.)	Horniman, Frederick John	Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr
Clough, Walter Owen	Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.	Morley, Charles (Breconshire)
Colville, John	Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)	Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Jacoby, James Alfred	Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)
Crilly, Daniel	Joicey, Sir James	Moulton, John Fletcher
Crombie, John William	Jones, D. Brymnore (Swansea)	Norton, Capt. Cecil William
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)	Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)	Nussey, Thomas Willans
Dalziel, James Henry	Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt Hn Sir U.	O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.
Davies, M. Vanghan-(Cardigan	Kearley, Hudson E.	O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Davitt, Michael	Kilbride, Denis	Oldroyd, Mark
Dewar, Arthur	Kinloch, Sir John G. Smyth	O'Malley, William
Dillon, John	Labouchere, Henry	Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham
Donelan, Captain A.	Lambert, George	Palmer, George Wm.(Reading)
Doogan, P. C.	Langley, Batty	Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)	Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland)	Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs. S W	Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfars.)	Whiteley, George (Stockport)
Power, Patrick Joseph	Smith, Samuel(Flint)	Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Price, Robert John	Soames, Arthur Wellesley	Williams, J. Carvell (Notts)
Priestley, Briggs (Yorks.)	Souttar, Robinson	Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull)
Provand, Andrew Dryburgh	Spicer, Albert	Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.)
Randell, David	Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.	Wilson, John(Durham Mid.)
Reckitt, Harold James	Steadman, William Charles	Wilson, John (Govan)
Rickett, J. Compton	Stevenson, Francis S.	WilsonJos. H. (Middlesbrough)
Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)	Stuart, James (Shoreditch)	Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huders)
Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)	Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)	Woods, Samuel
Robson, William Snowdon	Thomas, Alfred (Glamor., E.)	Yoxall, James Henry
Samuel,J.(Stockton-on-Tees)	Walton, John Law. (Leeds,S.)
Scott Ch. Prestwich (Leigh)	Warner, Thomas CourtenayT.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Shaw, Charles Edward (Staf.)	Wedderburn, Sir William	Mr. D. A. Thomas and Mr. Samuel Evans.
Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)	Weir, James Galloway

Question put, "That Clause 4 stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 270; Noes, 155. (Division List, No. 262.)

AYES.
Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden	Coddington, Sir William	Goschen, Rt Hn G. J. (St George's
Allsopp, Hon. George	Coghill, Douglas Harry	Goschen, George J. (Sussex)
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Goulding, Edward Alfred
Archdale, Edward Mervyn	Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse	Graham, Henry Robert
Arnold, Alfred	Colomb, Sir J. Charles Ready	Gray, Ernest (West Ham)
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.	Compton, Lord Alwyne	Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'ry
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)	Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy	Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W	Gretton, John
Bailey, James (Walworth)	Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.	Greville, Hon. Ronald
Baillie, James E. B.(Inverness	Cox, Irwin Edw. Banibridge	Gull, Sir Cameron
Baird, John George Alexander	Cripps, Charles Alfred	Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Balcarres, Lord	Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)	Halsey, Thomas Frederick
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J.(Manc'r	Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord George
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W.(Leeds	Curzon, Viscount	Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.
Banbury, Frederick George	Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh	Hanson, Sir Reginald
Barnes, Frederic Gorell	Dalkeith, Earl of	Hardy, Laurence
Barry, Rt Hn A. H. Smith-(Hts.	Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Hare, Thomas Leigh
Barry, Sir Francis T.(Windsor	Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)	Heaton, John Henniker
Bartley, George C. T.	Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.	Helder, Augustus
Barton, Dunbar Plunket	Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Henderson, Alexander
Beach, Rt Hn Sir M.H.(Bristol	Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. D.	Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter
Beckett, Ernest William	Dorington, Sir John Edward	Hill, Sir Edward Stock(Bristol)
Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull	Doughty, George	Hoare, Ed. Brodie (Hampstead
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Hobhouse, Henry
Bentinck, Lord Henry C.	Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S.	Holland, Hn. Lionel R. (Bow)
Beresford, Lord Charles	Doxford, William Theodore	Hornby, Sir William Henry
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Drucker, A.	Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry
Bigwood, James	Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.	Houston, R. P.
Bill, Charles	Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Hart	Howell, William Tudor
Bludell, Colonel Henry	Elliot, Hon. A. R. Douglas	Hozier, Hon. James Hy. Cecil
Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme	Fardell, Sir T. George	Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.	Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-
Bousfield, William Robert	Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manch	Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies
Brassey, Albert	Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)	Jebb, Richard Claverhouse
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Finch, George H.	Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick
Brookfield, A. Montagu	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Jenkins, Sir John Jones
Bullard, Sir Harry	Firbank, Joseph Thomas	Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Fisher, William Hayes	Jolliffe, Hon. H. George
Butcher, John George	Fison, Frederick William	Kemp, George
Carlile, William Walter	Flower, Ernest	Kenyon, James
Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs.)	Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)	Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William
Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbysh.	Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)	Kimber, Henry
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Galloway, William Johnson	Lafone, Alfred
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)	Gedge, Sydney	Laurie, Lieut-General
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.	Gibbons, J. Lloyd	Lawson, John Grant (Yorks)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.	Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.(City of Lon	Lea, Sir Thos. (Londonderry)
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r	Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans	Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. Ed. H.
Charrington, Spencer	Gilliat, John Saunders	Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)
Chelsea, Viscount	Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.	Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie
Clare, Octavius Leigh	Goldsworthy, Major-General	Leighton, Stanley
Clarke, Sir Edwd.(Plymouth)	Gordon, Hon. John Edward	Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E.	Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.	Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'ns'a
Lockwood, Lieut.-Colonel A. R.	O'Neil, Hon. Robert Torrens	Stephens, Henry Charles
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine	Pender, Sir James	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham	Penn, John	Stock, James Henry
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverp'l)	Percy, Earl	Strauss, Arthur
Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller	Pierpoint, Robert	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Lorne, Marquess of	Pilkington, R. (Lancs. Newton	Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Lowe, Francis William	Platt-Higgins, Frederick	Sutherland, Sir Thomas
Lowles, John	Powell, Sir Francis Sharp	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Loyd, Archie Kirkman	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward	Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G (Oxf'd Univ.
Lucas-Shadwell, William	Purvis, Robert	Thorburn, Walter
Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred	Quilter, Sir Cuthbert	Thornton, Percy M.
Macartney, W. G. Ellison	Rankin, Sir James	Tollemache, Henry James
Macdona, John Cumming	Rasch, Major Frederic Carne	Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray
MacIver, David (Liverpool)	Rentoul, James Alexander	Tritton, Charles Ernest
M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinb.,W.)	Richards, Henry Charles	Valentia, Viscount
Malcolm, Ian	Richardson, Sir Thos.(Hartlep'l	Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard
Martin, Richard Biddulph	Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.	Wanklyn, James Leslie
Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.	Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson	Ward, Hon. Robt. A. (Crewe)
Melville, Beresford Valentine	Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)	Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E. (Kent)
Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.	Robinson, Brooke	Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas. John	Round, James	Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Mildmay, Francis Bingham	Royds, Clement Molyneux	Wharton, Rt. Hon. J. Lloyd
Milner, Sir Frederick George	Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)	Whitmore, Charles Algernon
Milton, Viscount	Rutherford, John	Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)
Milward, Colonel Victor	Ryder, John Herbert Dudley	Williams, J. Powell- (Birm.)
Monk, Charles James	Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)	Willox, Sir John Archibald
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy	Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles	Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath)
More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)	Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. E. J.	Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh.	Savory, Sir Joseph	Wylie, Alexander
Morrell, George Herbert	Seely, Charles Hilton	Wyndham, George
Morrison, Walter	Seton-Karr, Henry	Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H.
Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptf'd.)	Sharpe, William Edward T.	Wyvill, Marmaduke d'Arcy
Mount, William George	Sidebottom, T. Harrop (Stalybr.	Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Muntz, Philip A.	Simeon, Sir Barrington	Younger, William
Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute)	Skewes Cox, Thomas
Murray, Charles J.(Coventry)	Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath)	Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Nicholson, William Graham	Spencer, Ernest
Nicol, Donald Ninian	Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)
Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Dalziel, James Henry	Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.
Allison, Robert Andrew	Davies,M Vaughan-(Cardigan)	Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)
Ambrose, Robert	Davitt, Michael	Jacoby, James Alfred
Asher, Alexander	Dewar, Arthur	Joicey, Sir James
Atherley-Jones, L.	Dillon, John	Jones, David Brymnor (Swan.
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)	Donelan, Captain A.	Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.
Barlow, John Emmott	Doogan, P. C.	Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt Hn Sir U.
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)	Kearley, Hudson E.
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.	Duckworth, James	Kilbride, Denis
Billson, Alfred	Dunn, Sir William	Kinloch, Sir J. George Smyth
Birrell, Augustine	Edwards, Owen Morgan	Labouchere, Henry
Bolton, Thomas Dolling	Ellis, John Edward	Lambert, George
Broadhurst, Henry	Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)	Langley, Batty
Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson	Evans, Sir F. H. (South'ton)	Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'l'nd
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James	Evershed, Sydney	Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington
Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn	Fenwick, Charles	Leng, Sir John
Burns, John	Ferguson, R.C. Munro(Leith)	Leuty, Thomas Richmond
Burt, Thomas	Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond	Lewis, John Herbert
Caldwell, James	Flynn, James Christopher	Lloyd-George, David
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)	Logan, John William
Causton, Richard Knight	Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry	Lough, Thomas
Cawley, Frederick	Goddard, Daniel Ford	MacAleese, Daniel
Channing, Francis Allston	Gourley, Sir E. Temperley	MacDonnell, Dr. M. A. (Qu'ns C
Clark, Dr. G. B.(Caithness-sh.)	Gurdon, Sir William Brampton	MacNeill, John Gordon Swift
Clough, Walter Owen	Haldane, Richard Burdon	M'Crae, George
Colville, John	Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm.	M'Dermott, Patrick
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale-	M'Ewan, William
Crilly, Daniel	Hazell, Walter	M'Ghee, Richard
Crombie, John William	Hedderwick, Thomas C. H.	M'Kenna, Reginald
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)	Holland, W. H.(York, W. R.)	M'Laren, Charles Benjamin
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)	Horniman, Frederick John	M'Leod, John
Maddison, Fred	Price, Robert John	Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Maden, John Henry	Priestley, Briggs (Yorks)	Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.
Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand	Provand, Andrew Dryburgh	Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel)	Randell, David	Wedderburn, Sir William
Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen	Reckitt, Harold James	Weir, James Galloway
Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr	Rickett, J. Compton	Whiteley, George (Stockport)
Morley, Charles (Breconshire)	Robert, John H. (Denbighs.)	Whittaker, Thomas Palmer
Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose	Robson, William Snowdon	Williams, John Carvell (Notts
Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)	Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)	Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull)
Moulton, John Fletcher	Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)	Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.
Norton, Capt. Cecil William	Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford)	Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)
Nussey, Thomas Wilians	Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.)	Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire	Wilson, John (Govan)
O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)	Smith, Samuel (Flint)	Wilson, J. W.(Worcestersh.N.
Oldroyd, Mark	Souttar, Robinson	Wilson, J. H. Middlesbrough)
O'Malley, William	Spicer, Albert	Woodhouse, Sir. J. T. (Hud'sfield
Palmer, Sir Chas.M.(Durham)	Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.	Woods, Samuel
Palmer, Geo. Wm.(Reading)	Steadman, William Charles	Yoxall, James Henry
Pease, Joseph A.(Northumb.)	Stevenson, Francis S.
Pickersgill, Edward H.	Stuart, James (Shoreditch)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs S W	Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)	Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur
Power, Patrick Joseph	Thomas, Alfred(Glamorgan, E.

New Clause:—

* MR. LEWIS

The object of the new Clause I now propose is to exempt Wales from the operation of the Bill. I observe some of my colleagues have put down Amendments to a similar effect, and if my hon. friend the Member for Merthyr intends to move his Amendment, I am quite willing to accept the latter part of his clause, for I do not desire that Wales should lose any benefit to which it might otherwise be entitled under this Bill. We certainly should prefer that any money which Wales may have to pay under this Bill should be devoted to some educational purpose. There are plenty of Parliamentary precedents for dealing with Wales separately, so I need not labour that point. We have had a Sunday Closing Bill for Wales, and a Welsh Intermediate Education Bill which no one would now desire to see repealed; indeed, so beneficial has one of those Acts proved, that proposals have been made by a Royal Commission for extending it. But there are some Acts from which Wales would be gladly excluded, owing to the opinions of the majority of the population, and this is one of them. We have heard a good deal since last Monday of the injustice that this Bill will inflict upon other parts of the United Kingdom. That injustice is especially marked in the case of Wales. The Welsh nation is a nation of Nonconformists, and therefore the passing of this Act would be especially unjust to Wales. Welsh Nonconformists consider that the tithe at the present time is entirely misappropriated, and they hold that it should be applied to purely national purposes. They ob- ject to what they deem to be national property being paid into the coffers of one sect, and they think it is only adding a further injustice to relieve one particular class of the community at the expense of the nation generally. I have observed that hon. Gentlemen opposite representing Welsh constituencies have voted steadily, and with an almost pathetic fidelity, with the Government on most of the stages of this Bill. I see one or two of them who represent urban constituencies in South Wales, and I do not envy them the task of presenting to their constituents the case for this Bill. I have no doubt they will do it as ably and effectively as it can be done; they will make the best case for the most wretched Bill that was ever brought before this House; but still, at the same time, I have confidence as to what would be the result of an appeal to their constituents on this particular Bill. In the last Parliament we had no less than thirty-one out of thirty-four Welsh members pledged to redress the great injustice which the existence of religious inequality in the Principality entails. It is true that in this Parliament we have not so large a majority, but still there are twenty-five of us as against nine. You are forcing a measure down the throats of a people who, by twenty-five votes to nine, have declared their opposition to the kind of Bill you are now introducing—a measure which they view as a great act of injustice. Over and over again in the course of these Debates it has been asserted that this Bill is based on justice, but do you think it is right to make the Nonconformists of Wales, the people who have been doing the major part of the religious and spiritual work in that country during the past generation, to pay out of their own hard earnings a still further addition to the tithe in Wales? I ask the House is that justice to the country, a portion of which I represent? As the Committee is aware the tithe question has been a burning question in Wales in the past, and hundreds and thousands of farmers have undergone very severe pains and penalties rather than pay the tithe. The payment has been enforced, not merely by tithe bailiffs and emergency men, but also by the military forces of the Crown, and the Welsh Nonconformists have been made to feel a galling yoke. Thousands of people have been sold up rather than pay the tithe voluntarily, and these are the very men upon whom you are throwing an additional burden. I have spoken of them as the people who have been doing the spiritual work of the country. Let me give an instance—a parish which is typical of hundreds of other parishes in Wales. It is a large and populous parish. During the last few years mining centres have sprung up in different parts of it. There was one church in a small hamlet in a thinly populated part of the parish, and to the services of that church many hundreds of pounds of tithes were devoted annually. The rest of the tithe probably went into the coffers of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. What did the Church do in that parish? It maintained out of the money contributed by the tithe-payers, chiefly Nonconformists, one Church for a few people. What did the Nonconformists do in the populous mining and quarrying villages? They made religious provision for the inhabitants; they provided Sunday services for people who would otherwise have been altogether destitute of religious ministrations. That continued for a long time, and then the Ecclesiastical Commissioners provided another church. There are hundreds of country parishes in which there is one church attended by a small handful of people, but in which by far the greater portion of spiritual work is done by Nonconformists, who have no endowment in the shape of tithe to rely upon. The work has been done from first to last on the voluntary principle because their hearts were in it. They have provided theological colleges for the education of ministers. They have provided populous churchless places with ministers, and in places where there has been no minister there has been an energetic and devoted diaconate ready to conduct Sunday and week night services, to visit the sick, and to look after the religious training of the young. These are the people who have again and again declared against the Church Establishment and against the application of tithes to the support of the Church, and these are the people whom you are going to fine for the benefit of the clergy. I think our position was very well defined by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham when he said that the great principle of religious equality was everywhere slowly undermining the fabric of ecclesiastical privilege. Yet you are now building up a fabric of ecclesiastical privilege. The right hon. Gentleman told us further that this principle of religious equality was fatal to all State Churches, and that it would surely be applied to the Church in England, Scotland, and Wales. He further went on to point out the sentiment of the people of the Principality was more unanimous and the anomalies of the present arrangement were more striking and irritating in Wales than elsewhere, and it had, therefore, the first claim to their sympathy and support in its efforts to free itself from a burden which recent events, and especially the tithe agitation, had shown to be almost intolerable to the vast majority of the population. Yet you are now proposing to add to that burden. Let us see what the Nonconformists have been doing in Wales. In 1775 there were only 171 Nonconformist congregations, in 1816 the number had increased to 993, and in 1861 it was 2,927, while in 1892 it has risen to 4,262. More than 3,000 Nonconformist places of worship have been built in Wales within the last eighty years. in 1859 the communicants belonging to the four leading Welsh denominations numbered 258,000; in 1892 they had increased to 381,000, an addition of 44½ per cent. Now Wales is a small country, and these figures show that Nonconformity has increased very rapidly. I remember that when this subject was last mentioned in the House, the hon. Baronet the Member for Swansea drew attention to the increase of churches in the Rhondda Valley, that being the best example of progress the Establishment has to present in Wales. What are the facts in regard to that? In the year 1866 there were in this Valley four churches and eleven chapels; in 1870 there were seven churches and twenty-one chapels; in 1884 there were eleven churches and ninety-eight chapels; and in 1892 the figures showed sixteen churches and 117 chapels. And that is in the very heart of Wales, where the Church prides itself on progress it has made. Now I would remind the Committee that this is only a temporary Bill. It is only to last for two years, and I do not think that, in the course of those two years, the positions of the Church and Nonconformity are likely to be altered relatively to any material extent. I wish to ask the Government is there any limit whatever to their desire to force measures of this kind upon Wales? We have asked for measures in which the Welsh people are interested, but every request of that kind has been refused, no matter how reasonable it may have been. We do not ask for this Bill; we only ask to be exempted from its operation, and surely that is a reasonable demand on our part. I hope that hon. Gentlemen will not allow their hostility to Welsh Nonconformity to carry them beyond due bounds. They have a large majority; let them use it with mercy. Of course, if they choose to refuse every request that is made by the representatives of Wales, I can only warn them that the time is coming when the people of Wales will again vote against them with practical unanimity.

New clause (Extent of Act)—(Mr. Lewis)—brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the clause be read a second time."

SIR R. B. FINLAY

The hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment has spoken with much feeling of the work done by Welsh Nonconformists. I can assure him that he is mistaken in supposing there is on this side of the House any feeling of hostility towards Nonconformity in Wales. But there was one omission which I did note in his speech, and that was that he made no reference to the excellent work which has also been done by the Church of Wales. After all, we are not engaged upon a Disestablishment Bill. I am not going to follow the hon. Gentleman in that portion of his speech, although I shall be prepared when the occasion arises to deal with that question. This Bill cannot be converted into a means of discussing the propriety of keeping up the Established Church in Wales, and everyone will agree that, as long as that Established Church exists, and as long as the clergyman in Wales is paid out of the tithe rent-charge, his grievance is exactly the same as that of his English brother. There is no possible difference. He does the same work, he is paid in the same way, and he has the same unjust burdens inflicted on him. We have decided that those burdens are unjust, and I confess it strikes me that this Amendment trenches most seriously upon the work which this Committee has already done. We have passed the first clause, providing that the owner of tithe rent-charge attached to a benefice shall be relieved of one-half of his rates, and really it would have been better if the attempt to exclude Wales had been made when that clause was under consideration. This is an endeavour to go back upon what the Committee has already decided. With regard to the proposal that no deduction shall be made from the sums payable to local authorities in Wales and Monmouthshire on account of the Estate Duty Grant, by reason of the passing of this Act, I think the hon. Member will see on reflection that he is mistaken in the idea that this money is taken directly from the Welsh ratepayers. As a matter of fact it is taken out of the sum which would otherwise go into the Local Taxation Account, and the burden is distributed over the whole country in a manner which we spent the greater part of yesterday in discussing. It is not a burden which is specially and exclusively inflicted on Wales. If I understand the latter part of the Amendment aright, it is proposed that there should be a modification of the Local Government Act, 1888, and that there should be an addition made to the sum given to each Welsh county. But we have already decided how the money required under this Bill is to be obtained, and I respectfully ask the Committee not to undo the work it did yesterday.

* MR. J. H. ROBERTS

I do not pro-propose to detain the Committee many minutes, for I think the action of the representatives of Wales has been shown with sufficient vigour during these Debates. I should like, however, to say a few words in reply to the speech we have just listened to. I have not a single word to say against the Welsh clergy, but I will point out that, owing to the circumstances in which they are placed in regard to their religious work in Wales, it is absolutely impossible for them to do for Wales what is being done by their fellow clergy in England and elsewhere. What I wish to point out is that, whereas in England the country as a whole will subscribe to the carrying out of the financial proposals of this Bill, the same thing has to be done in Wales with this difference, that in England the feeling may not be so very strong againgst this Bill financially, whereas the feeling in Wales is overwhelmingly against it. There are two or three practical considerations to which I wish to direct the attention of the Committee. First of all, the financial position of Wales is not that of England. I do not say that Wales is a poor country, but it is much poorer than England, and less able to bear the burden which this Bill imposes. I will give the Committee two or three facts with regard to that point. In England income tax is paid at the rate of £6 4s. 2d. per head, whereas in Wales it is only £4 8s. 10d. In 1890, under Schedule D, England paid at the rate of £10 1s. 2d., and Wales at only £4 18s., or less than half. The next practical consideration is that the local authorities in Wales have made good use of the money handed to them through the Local Taxation Account. I do not suppose there is a single set of county councils which has so effectually and usefully expended the money at their command for the education and higher interests of the country than the Welsh County Councils. Further I would remind the Committee that the amount received from Treasury subventions in Wales is not as great as it is in England. In England the rate of 7½d. per head; in Wales in 1890 it was only 5¼d. The third point that I desire to make has reference to what has been done by Nonconformists in Wales. I do not know whether the Committee realises the extent of the sacrifices which the Nonconformists of Wales have made, and are prepared to make, for the higher interests of the country. In Wales the Welsh Presbyterians subscribed during last year nearly £250,000 for various religious purposes, and they are only one out of the four Nonconformist sects in Wales. Is it not strange, therefore, that this miserable pittance provided by the Bill should have to be paid by the general tax-payers of the country towards further increasing the endowment of the clergy of the Church of England? Further, with regard to the Welsh clergy, I believe, if I have not misread their character, that they will not personally welcome the financial proposals of this Bill. It must be remembered that the position of the Nonconformist Church in Wales is an essential factor in the Bill new before us. I wish to reiterate the point mentioned by my hon. friend, that the Established Church in Wales is in a decided minority; that it is the church of the rich, and that it has in the past ranged itself against the national aspirations of the country. That is an historical fact. On the other hand, we have the exceptional position occupied by the Nonconformists. They embrace the large majority of the people of the country, and they have also identified themselves very closely during the last fifty years with every effort to advance the higher interests of the country. Although I know this Bill is bound to pass, it remains the fact that the overwhelming feeling in Wales is against it. If it is unjust, as I believe it is to England, it is far more unjust to Wales. I myself am driven to the conclusion year by year that you will not be able to legislate in harmony with the feeling of the people of Wales until we have some fundamental change in the machinery of Parliament, and I am convinced that such a change must be made before Wales can realise her just aspirations. I beg to support the new clause.

MR. HUMPHREYS-OWEN

I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman opposite to have some consideration for the people of Wales. You are imposing on Wales this Bill against which the Welsh peeple emphatically protest. It is a measure to subsidise the Church of England, and anybody who has the least acquaintance with Welsh social and political life knows perfectly well that one of the great causes of estrangement between Welshmen and Englishmen is the existence of the Established Church in Wales. This proposal may be said to be a somewhat small one and to affect a meritorious class, but small as it is it is none the less irritating. We ourselves complained not long ago against the policy of pin-pricks. This is something more than a pin-prick, because it is opposed to the national sentiment of the country, which has declared itself fully and emphatically against it. By this Bill you are, at the cost of Nonconformists and Churchmen alike, giving relief to the clergy of the Church of England. It is the Church of the rich, and in parish after parish in Wales you will find that the only persons who attend the church are the parson and his family and one or two country gentlemen. The Solicitor-General said that this was not a Disestablishment Debate. But Disestablishment is nevertheless somewhat involved in what we are doing to-night. It is perfectly true that in agricultural districts a considerable portion of the money required will come, not from the country districts, but from the towns; but, for all that, the country districts will still have to pay.

* THE CHAIRMAN

Order, order! The hon. Gentleman is straying from the point.

MR. HUMPHEREYS-OWEN

I was only replying to argument on the other side, but I will not pursue it. Another argument of the Solicitor-General was that the clergy grievance is the same in England and in Wales. We say that by the methods you are adopting you may remedy a clergy grievance, but you are creating a ratepayers' grievance, and therefore you are only shifting the burden. In Wales that grievance will be felt much more strongly than in England, because of the strong hostility between the Church of England and the other denominations. Now, I wish to make an appeal to Churchmen on the other side. Do they think they are really aiding the cause of the Church of England in supporting this Bill?

* THE CHAIRMAN

I must call the hon. Member's attention to the fact that the only question before the Committee is whether Wales should or should not be exempt from this Bill.

MR. HUMPHREYS-OWEN

I was trying, I am afraid imperfectly, to bring forward reasons why Wales should be exempt, and I will conclude my remarks by an appeal to Churchmen, in the interests of the Church of England, to grant the concession asked for by this clause.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

The reasons why this Amendment has been moved have been stated so fully and so well by several Members representing Welsh constituencies that it is not necessary for me, with less perfect knowledge, to go into them at length. Nobody can deny that this is a very reasonable and important Amendment. I am supporting it, politically speaking, very much against my own views, if I have any Party feeling in the matter. That which I should most desire is that this Amendment should be rejected, for I do not know anything that would have a greater effect in eradicating the tares which have been sown in the Liberal wheat in Wales. From that point of view the rejection of the Amendment would be advantageous. It is absolutely impossible that this Government could have proposed a measure which could be more bitterly opposed by the great majority of the people of Wales. The majority of the Welsh people are attached to Nonconformity. That will not be denied for a moment. Hitherto it has been the boast of the Church of England that it relied on its own pecuniary resources. But now for the first time a demand is made on the general taxpayer, who has no particular connection with the Church, to subsidise the clergy of the Established Church. That is an entirely new feature in the relations between the Church and the population, and the Church will no longer be able to say, like the Nonconformist denominations, that it costs nothing to the people. My opinion is that this is an act of injustice generally, but above all it is an act of special injustice to such a population as that of Wales. I have no desire to go into all the considerations which certainly, think, ought to give the Committee pause before passing such a measure as this against the will of the Welsh people. Never was a measure designed by the Imperial Parliament which has more wantonly and more unjustly irritated the sentiments of the Welsh people, and for that reason I shall heartily support the clause.

MR. LONG

The right hon. Gentleman has appealed to us on behalf of Wales not to include Wales in this Bill. I am bound to say I am surprised at the grounds on which the right hon. Gentleman supported the claim made by the Welsh Members. The right hon. Gentleman has referred, as several hon. Members have referred, to the position of the Established Church in Wales, and to the power of the Nonconformists. As my hon. and learned friend said earlier in the evening, nobody here is prepared or desires to contest in the smallest degree the efforts made by Nonconformity in Wales for the progress of Christianity and education. On the contrary we desire heartily to endorse them. That, however is not a question which is germane to the discussion. The right hon. Gentleman, if he desired to support the case of Wales for exemption, ought at least to have shown that the Welsh clerical tithe-owner does not suffer under those disabilities which have been established over and over again during these Debates to exist with regard to clerical tithe-owners in England. Hon. Gentlemen opposite have not attempted to show that there is any other ratepayer whose liability is the same as the clerical owner of tithe or who pays in the same proportion for local expenses. It is rather late in the day now to contest that. It is perfectly well known that the position of the owner of clerical tithe in Wales is not in any degree different from that of the owner of tithe rent-charge in England. No argument has been advanced against that, and that being the case I submit that no ground whatever has been made out for the acceptance of this clause. The Committee has already decided that a certain amount of rate should be repaid, and that a sum should be found from a particular source, and I submit that to exempt Wales on the ground that Nonconformity is in the majority, or that the Established Church is in a minority, or that sectarial differences of opinion, which I hope and believe are subsiding, exist is to make an unreasonable proposition which I hope the Committee will reject.

MR. SAMUEL EVANS

The right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has talked about a subject of which he knows very little. ("No, no.") I do not suppose for a moment that the right hon. Gentleman will contend that he is an authority on ecclesiastical matters in Wales, I have already paid my tribute to the right hon. Gentleman on his conduct of this Bill, but as regards Wales he is not to be regarded as an authority at all. Without going over the ground so excellently traversed by my hon. friends, and so admirably dealt with by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouthshire, I will deal with the matter from a somewhat different standpoint. The case against the Bill does not merely depend upon the injustice of making Wales subscribe out of the taxation of the country for an alien church. If anything, it is still more unjust that the Welsh people should be called upon not merely to contribute to the Church in Wales, but also to contribute very largely to the maintenance of the Church in England. I desire to protest against these public moneys being given to the support of the Church in the Principality, but I still more strongly protest against taking public money out of the pockets of the Welsh taxpayers to support the Church in England. Now, the case lies in a nutshell. The parochial incumbents in Wales do not receive a very large amount of tithe. I believe it will be admitted that, on the whole, the Welsh clergyman has a smaller living on the average than the English clergyman. The whole amount of the tithe rent-charge in the twelve counties of the Principality is £237,000. Therefore, the sum given under this Bill, proportionately speaking, to the Welsh clergymen is not very large. I think the whole sum amounts to something liks £8,000. Twelve counties in England, however, receive in tithe rent-charge exactly ten times as much as the twelve in the Principality. So far as the individual clergyman is concerned, I do not think that many of us on this side of the House would object to the Welsh clergyman having the money. The individual parson in Wales is not a very unpopular person. He is rendered unpopular by reason of the fact that the Establishment is against him, but individually he is regarded as rather a good fellow. Hon. Members who know Wales best can testify to the fact that if there is a worthless son or scallywag he is sent to the Church, and, as a rule, on that very ground he is a very good fellow individually. Whatever you may say about Welsh clergymen, they are really not half as bad beggars as English clergymen are. They receive less money, and they do not complain. Moreover, the Welsh clergymen have not really asked for the money which you are going to give under this Bill. I am sure the hon. Gentleman the Member for Swansea will not get up and say that there has been anything like the demand for this relief among the Welsh clergy that we have seen exhibited in England. But if the Welsh Church is increasing, as has been stated, why do not its supporters maintain their own clergymen if their clergymen desire a better living? I doubt very much whether the House will see going into the Division Lobby in favour of the Government and against this Amendment a single Member for a constituency in Wales. Those Gentleman dare not vote, if they desire to seek re-election, in favour of this Bill. I contend that a hardship arises not only because this money is taken from the pockets of the Welsh taxpayer for the benefit of the Welsh clergymen who are not asking for it, but that given is given in a much larger measure for the support of the clergy of the Church of England. I therefore hope we shall be perfectly solid in opposing the proposal of the Government.

MR. WILLIAM ABRAHAM (Glamorganshire, Rhondda)

In rising at this hour of the morning my only reason is that I want to enter my protest against any further endowment of the Church of England in Wales. Hon. and right hon. Members have said that Wales has no particular grounds of its own for rejecting this Bill. But allow me to say, Sir, that if there were but one, that one being that it is the Church of England in Wales, and not the Church of Wales in Wales, that is sufficiently differential to base upon the plea that it should not be forced upon the Principality. Some of my Welsh friends have urged the argument that the regrettable neglect by the Church of England of the interest of the Welsh people in Wales is a sufficient reason why this Bill should not be applied to Wales. To this I agree. And no one here cares to deny the facts, the historical facts regarding the neglect of the Church in Wales during this period. That regrettable fact is always kept green in the minds of the Welsh people that read the description given of that time by the hymnologist from Pantycelyn when he said— Pan oedd cymru gynt yn gonweder meion annuwiol farwol hun Heb na phrespitar na Fieirade Nac un Esgob ar ddihun. (Loud laughter.) Hon. Members may laugh, but it is too true all the same. What further proof does this House need of the futility of the Church trying to teach the Welsh people religion in a foreign tongue than the fact that even hon. Members laugh at the very same tongue when now used? However, this is not the point I intended to urge upon the consideration of this House when I rose. I think that it is high time that this Debate was risen to a higher ground. The House, so far, has interested itself with what will be effect of this measure upon the mechanism of the Church; but I want to know what effect it will have upon the Church as a moral power in the land. I have been waiting to hear whether some of my Welsh friends on the other side would have a word to say in defence of the real Church in this matter. I freely admit that the Church in Wales has done some good there, during the last decade especially. And I cannot help thinking that that good will be sorely impeded by the effect of this Bill. I freely admit that I did not think there was so much in this Bill until I heard the important statement made by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Agriculture when opposing the Amendment of the hon. gentleman the senior Member for Merthyr. He then said that if that Amendment was carried it would take away 50 per cent. of the funds available for the use of this Bill. If that be the case, and that 50 per cent. of the money for the relief of the clergy is going to come out of a fund which goes to the relief of the poor, what is to become of the relationship between the clergy—the incumbent, the vicar, and especially the curate—that administer to the poor, and the poor which they administer to? One of the great dignitaries of the Church said only the other day "that the people, and especially the poor among the people, should understand and feel that the Church existed for them." If, then, the clergy were going to curtail their contributions to the poor fund to the tune of between £40,000 and £50,000, would they expect the poor in the land to believe any longer that those clergy had any sympathy with them? If, then, the effect of this Bill will be to kill that good feeling between the clergy in the Church and the poor people which they administer to, what will become of the Church—the real moral power of that Church upon the poor which it professes to exist for? Cannot hon. and right hon. Members see that one of the direct effects of this must be to destroy the influence of the Church as a moral power in the land? I would, therefore, appeal to hon. Members for Wales to support this Amendment for the sake of the Church itself. And I would ask them, as members of the Church and its advocates in Wales, to well consider, before casting their votes in this matter, whether it is the interest of the clergy in the Church or the Church itself, including its poor, they are here to defend.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

I very much regret that the Members of the Government have not thought fit to tackle the arguments which have been advanced by hon. Members for Wales in favour of this motion. The Solicitor-General objected to the Amendment on purely technical grounds, but surely this matter is far too important to be put aside by the raising of mere technicalities. It is a matter of justice to the whole of the people of the Principality, and a mere technical argument is not a sufficient answer. The President of the Board of Agriculture said that the mere fact that a vast majority of the Welsh people were opposed to the Establishment altogether was a perfectly irrelevant argument. But surely he cannot say that. We pay annually something like £300,000 to the Church out of our national endowment, and the Government come down, in spite of our protest, and say, "We ask you people in Wales to add to that endowment by £8,000 a year." That is a very unfair thing to do. They have excluded Ireland and they have excluded Scotland front the operation of the Bill, but every argument that can be advanced for excluding Ireland and Scotland can also be advanced for excluding Wales. This arrangement is repudiated by the vast majority of the Welsh people. A Welsh nobleman has written a letter within the last few days in which he says that, though a supporter of the Government, he has subscribed quite enough already to the Church of England in Wales, and will not subscribe a single penny piece more towards maintaining a Church whose doctrines are hostile to the Reformation. And yet the people of Wales, four-fifths of whom disbelieve the doctrines of the Church root and branch, are called upon to subscribe, not £50 or £100, but £8,000 a year towards the maintenance of this Church. Surely that is a monstrous proposition, especially in the present state of the Church of England in Wales and outside. I have not heard in the course of this Debate that the main principle laid down by hon. Members for Wales has been challenged, namely, that the vast majority of the people disavow the services of the Church. I submit that that is a very relevant consideration. What is the ground on which this Bill has been introduced? One is that it is for professional services rendered. Who, in Wales, has called for those services? Who wants them? The people say, "We don't want the services." Why should they be called upon to pay for them? How many people came before the Commission to represent the people of Wales? The only layman was the hon. Member for Tunbridge, but he is not a Welsh member. The hon. Member comes from Denbighshire. He toils night and day for the promotion of the interests of our National Church—of the National Church of the Welsh people, so we are told. And yet he has not been able to find a single seat in Wales to return him as a member! (Interruption.) Yes, the hon. Member has not tried, because he knows perfectly well he has not the remotest chance. If his views commended themselves to the people of Denbighshire, where he resides, surely with his ability he would have found a seat in that particular county. And who is the other witness who came before this Commission? He is a Welsh rector. What is his case? He is paid net tithe amounting to £279 2s. 2d. The whole population of his parish is about 450. Four-fifths of the population attend the Calvinistic Methodist place of worship, and very few of the rest ever attend the parish church. Here is a gentleman who is receiving £279 for his services for the whole of the parish, whilst the minister of the real parish church—the minister who attends to four-fifths of the population—is not paid one-half that this gentleman is paid. And yet the rector comes and says, "It is true I do not minister to this population, it is true that I only do one-fifth of the work for which I am paid, but I ask that you should give me a rise in my salary." It is exactly as if the Local Government Board were to impose a medical officer upon a particular district, and, in spite of the fact that the district did not want his services, did not believe in him, and preferred to pay their own doctor, were obliged to appoint him, and give him an increase of salary. Something has been said about hon. Members for Wales who sit on the opposite side. A short time the Leader of the Conservative party in Wales was in the House, but not a word has he said in support of this proposal. I should like to know what he has to say about this Amendment. I see the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmmgham also present. There was a time when he raised his powerful voice in favour of the Welsh people, and when he insisted upon having their grievances redressed in regard to the Church: and yet he is now a member of a Government which seeks to aggravate that grievance, and to impose an additional tax of £8,000 in favour of the Church which he himself once regarded as a source of one of the greatest grievances of the Welsh people. I think we can appeal to him at any rate to put in one word in favour of the people of Wales in this matter. I venture to appeal to the Government, having exempted Ireland from the provisions of the Bill, and having exempted Scotland, to exempt Wales. We are asking nothing which is unfair. The Government have a perfectly loyal and law-abiding

population to deal with, but instead of redressing their grievances they aggravate and intensify them by proposals of this character.

MR. SAMUEL EVANS

May I correct one figure? I gave the sum of £8,000 as being the amount of the tax made upon Wales in regard to this Bill. That figure, I believe, is more accurately stated at something under £6,000.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 120; Noes, 233. (Division List, No. 263.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Goddard, Daniel Frod	Oldroyd, Mark
Asher, Alexander	Gurdon, Sir William Brampton	O'Malley, William
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)	Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William	Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)
Barlow, John Emmott	Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-	Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Hedderwick, Thonms Chas.H.	Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs, S W
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.	Holland, Wm. H. (York, W. R.)	Power, Patrick Joseph
Billson, Alfred	Horniman, Frederick John	Price, Robert John
Birrell, Augustine	Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.	Provand, Andrew Dryburgh
Bolton, Thomas Dolling	Joicey, Sir James	Randell, David
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James	Jones, David Brymnor (Swans'a	Reckett, Harold James
Burns, John	Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.	Rickett, J. Compton
Caldwell, James	Kearley, Hudson E.	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Kilbride, Denis	Robson, William Snowdon
Causton, Richard Knight	Labouchere, Henry	Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Cawley, Frederick	Lambert, George	Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Channing, Francis Allston	Langley, Batty	Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford)
Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.)	Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington	Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Colville, John	Leng, Sir John	Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Leuty, Thomas Richmond	Souttar, Robinson
Crilly, Daniel	Lewis, John Herbert	Spicer, Albert
Crombie, John William	Lloyd-George, David	Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.
Curran, Thomas (Sligo,S.)	Logan, John William	Steadman, William Charles
Dalziel, James Henry	Lough, Thomas	Stevenson, Francis S.
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan	Macaleese, Daniel	Stuart, James (Shoreditch)
Davitt, Michael	MacDonnell, Dr M A (Queen's C)	Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Dewar, Arthur	M'Crae, George	Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.
Dillon, John	M'Dermott, Patrick	Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr
Donelan, Captain A.	M'Ewan, William	Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.
Doogan, P. C.	M'Ghee, Richard	Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)	M'Kenna, Reginald	Wedderburn, Sir William
Duckworth, James	M'Leod, John	Whiteley, George(Stockport)
Dunn, Sir William	Maddison, Fred.	Williams, John Carvell(Notts)
Edwards, Owen Morgan	Maden, John Henry	Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull)
Ellis, John Edward	Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand	Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)	Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Evans, Sir F. H.(S'thampton)	Morgan, W. P.(Merthyr)	Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Hudd'rsf'd
Evershed, Sydney	Morley, Charles (Breconshire)	Woods, Samuel.
Fenwick, Charles	Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)	Yoxall, James Henry
Ferguson, R. C. M. (Leith)	Nussey, Thomas Willans	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Flynn, James Christopher	O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.)	Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur
Foster,Sir Walter(Derby Co.)	O'Connor, T. P.(Liverpool)
NOES.
Allhusen, Augustus Henry E.	Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds	Bill, Charles
Allsopp, Hon. George	Banbury, Frederick George	Blundell, Colonel Henry
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Barnes, Frederic Gorell	Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme
Archdale, Edward Mervyn	Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts	Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-
Arnold, Alfred	Bartley, George C. T.	Bousfield, William Robert
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.	Barton, Dunbar Plunket	Brassey, Albert
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H.(Bristol	Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy	Beckett, Ernest William	Brookfield, A. Montagu
Baillie, JamesE. B.(Inverness)	Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe	Bullard, Sir Harry
Baird, John George Alexander	Bentinck, Lord Henry C.	Burdett-Coutt, W.
Balcarres, Lord	Beresford, Lord Charles	Butcher, John George
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r	Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Carlile, William Walter
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)	Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George	Nicol, Donald Ninian
Cavendish, V. C.W.(Derbysh.)	Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. Wm.	Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Hanson, Sir Reginald	O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Cecil Evelyn (Hertford, East)	Hardy, Laurence	Pender, Sir James
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.	Hare, Thomas Leigh	Percy, Earl
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.	Henderson, Alexander	Pierpoint, Robert
Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r	Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter	Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton)
Charrington, Spencer	Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol)	Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Chelsea, Viscount	Hobhouse, Henry	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A.E.	Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow)	Purvis, Robert
Coddington Sir William	Hornby, Sir William Henry	Rankin, Sir James
Coghill, Douglas Harry	Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry	Rentoul, James Alexander
Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Houston, R. P.	Richards, Henry Charles
Collins, Rt. Hon. Jesse	Howell, William Tudor	Richardson, Sir T.(Hartlep'l)
Colomb, Sir J. Charles Ready	Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil	Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W.
Compton, Lord Alwyne	Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn	Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson
Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W.	Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-	Robertson, Herbert(Hackney)
Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Edw. T. D.	Jebb, Richard Claverhouse	Round, James
Cox, Irwin Edward (Bainbridge	Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)	Royds, Clement Molyneux.
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)	Jolliffe, Hon. H. George	Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)	Kemp, George	Rutherford, John
Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Kenyon, James	Ryder, John Herbert Dudley
Curzon, Visconnt	Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William	Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles
Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh	Kimber, Henry	Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. E. J.
Dalkeith, Earl of	Lafone, Alfred	Seton-Karr, Henry
Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Laurie, Lieut.-General	Sharpe, William Edward T.
Davies, Sir H. D.(Chatham)	Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)	Sidebottom, T. Harrop (Stalybr
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.	Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry)	Simeon, Sir Barrington
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-	Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm.Edw.H.	Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)	Smith, James P. (Lanarks.)
Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon	Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie	Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)
Doughty, George	Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset	Spencer, Ernest
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Llewelyn, Sir DillWyn-(Swan.	Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk
Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S.	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Doxford, William Theodore	Long, Col. Charles W (Evesham	Stephens, Henry Charles
Drucker, A.	Long, Rt.Hn Walter (L'pool.)	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.	Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller	Stock, James Henry
Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart	Lorne, Marquess of	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Elliot, Hon. H. Ralph Douglas	Lowe, Francis William	Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Fardell, Sir T. George	Lowles, John	Sutherland, Sir Thomas
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward	Loyd, Archie Kirkman	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Finch, George H.	Lucas-Shadwell, William	Thornton, Percy M.
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Macartney, W. G. Ellison	Tollemache, Henry James
Firbank, Joseph Thomas	Macdona John Cumming	Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Fisher, William Hayes	MacIver, David (Liverpool)	Valentia, Viscount
Fison, Frederick William	M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W	Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard
Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)	Malcolm, Ian	Wanklyn, James Leslie
Foster, Barry S. (Suffolk)	Martin, Richard Biddulph	Ward, Hn. Robert A. (Crewe)
Galloway, William Johnson	Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F	Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E.(Kent)
Gedge, Sydney	Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.	Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Gibbons, J. Lloyd	Milbank, Sir Powlett C. John	Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (CityofLnd.)	Mildmay, Francis Bingham	Wharton, Rt. Hon. John L.
Gilliat, John Saunders	Milton, Viscount	Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick	Milward, Colonel Victor	Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm
Goldsworthy, Major-General	Montagu, Hn. J.Scott (Hants.)	Willox, Sir John Archibald
Gordon, Hon. John Edward	Moon, Edward Robert Pacy	Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (S. G'rge's	More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart
Goschen, George J.(Sussex)	Morgan, Hn. Fred (Monm'thsh.	Wylie, Alexander
Goulding, Edward Alfred	Morrell, George Herbert	Wyndham, George
Graham, Henry Robert	Morrison, Walter	Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Gray, Ernest (West Ham)	Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford	Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Green,WalfordD.(W'dnesbury	Mount, William George	Young, Commander (Berks, E.
Greene, W. R.-(Cambs.)	Muntz, Philip A.
Greville, Hon. Ronald	Murray, Rt Hn A Graham(Bute
Gull, Sir Cameron	Murray, Charles J.(Coventry)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles	Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Halsey, Thomas Frederick	Nicholson, William Graham

MR. DALZIEL

I rise to move a motion on behalf of the officials of the House, most of whom have now been on duty fourteen hours. It was never intended that we should sit all night. That is not the usual interpretation of the suspension of the twelve o'clock rule; it was never intended to sit longer than a reasonable time, and have we not on the present occasion sat long enough? There are still several important clauses to be dealt with, and I beg to move that progress be reported and the Debate be adjourned.

Motion made and Question proposed— That the Chairman do report progress; and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Dalziel.)

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

I do not propose to enter into any recriminatory matter. I would merely point out that although it is perfectly true that the inconvenience caused to all concerned is considerable, some hon. Members on the Opposition side insist upon obstructing the business, and there is no help but to sit on. This afternoon since four o'clock we have discussed a definition clause, a clause dealing with the title of the Bill, and a clause saying when it is to come into operation, and we have been discussing those three clauses ten hours.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

I regret the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House will not accede so reasonable a request. When we move Amendments he will not discuss them. As for the amount of work we have done to-night, we have passed three clauses, and in no single case in the time of the last Liberal Government were so many clauses passed at one sitting owing to the tactics of the Opposition. I ask the right hon. Gentleman most earnestly to listen to the appeal of my hon. friend.

SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN

I am personally no advocate of long sittings nor of delaying proceedings, and I am bound to say I do not think my hon. friend is unreasonable in asking the Government whether they intend to make the House sit until the rest of the Bill is dealt with. If that is their intention I protest against it. This is not an ordinary Bill; it is merely another added to the many instances I have known of dealing with a Bill before this House in any way but the straightforward way. All the ingenious devices which have been invented do not further the business at all. This Bill is known to be a most objectionable Bill to a large section of the House and country. There is tremendous feeling against it on this side of the House and on the Government side, and Conservative candidates who have stood in the country have repudiated it. I am bound to say I do not think it is respectful to the House for the First Lord of the Treasury to set himself against every Amendment for the purpose of avoiding a discussion on the Report stage, though no doubt it is a clever proceeding. Surely now he is not going to keep us here indefinitely? If he is, all we can do is to divide the House upon this motion, as a protest against such tactics.

MR. FLYNN (Cork, N.)

I do think it is an unreasonable thing to ask Members to sacrifice their time and jeopardise their health in order that a measure not mentioned in the Queen's Speech should be forced through this House. The Government are acting most unreasonably in making these demands on the Committee and on private Members. Even if we are a minority, we are entitled to consideration. The Welsh Members have devoted to this matter attention and consideration which must have elicited admiration from all sides, while the Irish and Scotch Members have rendered what assistance they could in the Division Lobby. But to say that we shall be doing walking marches all night is an abuse of the power of a strong Government. I hope the Government will acknowledge the reasonableness of the proposal, and, instead of continuing this discussion at this hour, recognise that the Independent Members are entitled to some fair treatment, and ought not to be reduced to a condition of slavery, or at any rate called upon to bear the burdens of the Church Party by sacrificing their time, energy, and health.

MR. LAMBERT

I would venture to appeal to the right hon. Gentleman on behalf of the President of the Board of Agriculture. He has now gone out, doubtless, to seek a little well-deserved refreshment.

MR. BOUSFIELD (Hackney, N.)

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put;" but the Chairman withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.

MR. LAMBERT

He has been sitting in close attendance on this Bill, and I notice he is requested to attend at 11.45 this morning for the purpose of guiding his Lands Improvement Bill through the Standing Committee on Law. We have a great respect for the President of the Board of Agriculture, who is so interested in his Department, and we would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to spare him this unnecessary sitting up in the small hours of the morning.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 107; Noes, 216. (Division List, No. 264.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Hedderwick, Thomas Chas. H.	Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs. S W
Asher, Alexander	Holland, W. H. (York, W.R.)	Power, Patrick Joseph
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)	Horniman, Frederick John	Price, Robert John
Barlow, John Emmott	Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.	Provand, Andrew Dryburgh
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Joicey, Sir James	Randell, David
Billson, Alfred	Jones, D. Brymnor (Swansea)	Reckitt, Harold James
Birrell, Augustine	Jones, Wm.(Carnarvonshire)	Rickett, J. Compton
Bolton, Thomas Dolling	Kilbride, Denis	Roberts, John H.(Denbighs)
Burns, John	Labouchere, Henry	Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Caldwell, James	Lambert, George	Scott, Chas. Prestwich(Leigh)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Langley, Batty	Shaw, Charles Edw.(Stafford)
Channing, Francis Allston	Leese, Sir J. F.(Accrington)	Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.)	Leng, Sir John	Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarshi'e
Colville, John	Leuty, Thomas Richmond	Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Lewis, John Herbert	Souttar, Robinson
Crilly, Daniel	Lloyd-George, David	Spicer, Albert
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)	Logan, John William	Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.
Curran, Thomas(Sligo,S.)	Lough, Thomas	Steadman, William Charles
Dalziel, James Henry	Macaleese, Daniel	Stevenson, Francis S.
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan	Mac Donnell, Dr M A (Queen'sC.	Stuart, James (Shoreditch)
Davitt, Michael	M'Crae, George	Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Donelan, Captain A.	M'Dermott, Patrick	Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Doogan, P. C.	M'Ewan, William	Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)
Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark)	M'Ghee, Richard	Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.
Duckworth, James	M'Kenna, Reginald	Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Dunn, Sir William	M'Leod, John	Wedderburn, Sir William
Edwards, Owen Morgan	Maddison, Fred.	Whiteley, George (Stockport)
Ellis, John Edward	Maden, John Henry	Williams, John Carvell (Notts.
Evans, Samuel T.(Glamotgan)	Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand	Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull)
Evershed, Sydney	Morgan, W. P. (Merthyr)	Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Fenwick, Charles	Morley, Charles (Breconshire)	Woodhouse SirJ. T (Huddersf'd
Ferguson, R.C. Munro(Leith)	Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport	Woods, Samuel
Flynn, James Christopher	Nussey, Thomas Willans	Yoxall, James Henry
Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)	O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.
Goddard, Daniel Ford	Oldroyd, Mark	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William	Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)	Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur.
Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale-	Pickersgill, Edward Hare
NOES.
Allhusen, Augustus Hen. Eden	Brassey, Albert	Curzon, Viscount
Allsopp, Hon. George	Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Dalrymple, Sir Charles
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Brookfield, A. Montagu	Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)
Archdale, Edward Mervyn	Bullard, Sir Harry	Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.
Arnold, Alfred	Burdett-Coutts, W.	Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.	Carlile, William Walter	Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)	Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy	Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)	Doughty, George
Baird, John G. Alexander	Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Doughlas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Balcarres, Lord	Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)	Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S.
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r.	Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.	Doxford, William Theodore
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds	Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.	Drucker, A.
Banbury, Frederick George	Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc.	Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.
Barnes, Frederic Gorell	Charrington, Spencer	Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart
Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. S.-(Hunts)	Chelsea, Viscount	Elliott, Hon. A. Ralph D.
Bartley, George C. T.	Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Fardell, Sir T. George
Barton, Dunbar Plunket	Coddington, Sir William	Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol	Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Finch, George H.
Beckett, Ernest William	Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe	Colomb, SirJohn Charles Ready	Firbank, Joseph Thomas
Bentinck, Lord Henry C.	Compton, Lord Alwyne	Fisher, William Hayes
Beresford, Lord Charles	Cornwallis, F. Stanley W.	Fison, Frederick William
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.	Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge
Bonsor, Henry Cosmo orme		Galloway, William Johnson
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton	Gedge, Sydney
Bousfield, William Robert	Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Gibbons, J. Lloyd
Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond	Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham	Ritchie, Rt. Hn. (Chas. Thomson
Gilliat, John Saunders	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (L'pool)	Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick	Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller	Round, James
Goldsworthy, Major-General	Lorne, Marquess of	Royds, Clement(Molyneux)
Gordon, Hon. John Edward	Lowe, Francis William	Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Gosehen, R Hn. G. J. (St George's	Lowles, John	Rutherford, John
Gosehen, George J.(Sussex)	Loyd, Archie Kirkman	Ryder, John Herbert Dudley
Goulding, Edward Alfred	Lucas-Shadwell, William	Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles
Graham, Henry Robert	Macartney, W.G. Ellison	Saunderson, Rt Hon Col Edw. J.
Gray, Ernest(West Ham)	Macdona, John Cumming	Seton-Karr, Henry
Green, W. D.(Wednesbnry)	Maclver, David (Liverpool)	Simeon, Sir Barrington
Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)	M'Iver, Sir L. (Edinbugh W.)	Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Greville, Hon. Ronald	Malcolm, Ian	Smith, James P.(Lanarks.)
Gull, Sir Cameron	Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.	Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)
Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles	Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.	Spencer, Ernest
Halsey, Thomas Frederick	Milbank, Sir Powlett Charles J.	Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk
Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George	Mildmay, Francis Bingham	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. W.	Milner, Sir Frederick George	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M.
Hanson, Sir Reginald	Milton, Viscount	Stock, James Henry
Hardy, Laurence	Milward, Colonel Victor	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Hare, Thomas Leigh	Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.	Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Henderson, Alexander	Moon, Edward Robert Pacy	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol)	More, Robt. Fasper (Shropshire	Thornton, Percy M.
Hobhouse, Henry	Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh	Tollemache, Henry James
Holland, Hon. Lionel R. (Bow)	Morrell, George Herbert	Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Hornby, Sir William Henry	Morrison, Walter	Valentia, Viscount
Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry	Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford	Wanklyn, James Leslie
Houston, R. P.	Mount, William George	Ward, Hon. R. A.(Crewe)
Howell, William Tudor	Muntz, Philip A.	Warde, Lieut.-Col.C.E.(Kent)
Hozier, Hon. James H. Cecil	Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute	Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn	Murray, C.J.(Coventry)	Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-	Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath	Wharton, Rt. Hon. Jno. Lloyd
Jebb, Richard Claverhouse	Nicholson, William Graham	Williams, Colonel R.(Dorset)
Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)	Nicol, Donald Ninian	Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm
Jolliffe, Hon. H. George	Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford	Willox, Sir John Archibald
Kemp, George	O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Kenyon, James	Pender, Sir James	Wilson J. W. (Worcestersh., N.)
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William	Pierpoint, Robert	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Kimber, Henry	Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton	Wylie, Alexander
Lafone, Alfred	Platt-Higgins, Frederick	Wyndham, George
Laurie, Lieut-General	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward	Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Lawson, John Grant(Yorks.)	Purvis, Robert	Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry	Rankin, Sir James	Young, Commander (Berks,E.)
Lees, Sir Elliot(Birkenhead)	Rentoul, James Alexander
Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie	Richards, Henry Charles	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset)	Richardson, Sir Thos. (Hartlep'l
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine	Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W.

MR. HUMPHREYS-OWEN

The Amendment I have to move is one which will commend itself to all Members. It is a very well recognised view that, in order to have purity in dealing with public money, it is important that you should identify the persons to whom the money should go. In this instance you are providing considerable sums of money from public funds for the relief of certain clergymen in different counties and county boroughs in England Wales. It is obvious that it is desirable that the expenditure of these sums of money, coming as they do entirely out of the funds at the disposal of the councils, should be scrutinised with the same minuteness as is applied by these bodies to expenditure of their ordinary funds. I have here the accounts of the county council of my own county, and to give a specimen of the careful way in which the ratepayers are informed, not only of the amounts spent, but to whom they are given, I will give one or two items. There is an allowance of £1 15s. to a police-constable, 15s. to a lady, and £1 3s. 4d. to a P.C. Lewis, and so on. It is equally desirable that the clergy—who are public officers, now to receive distinct grants out of the public funds—should be shown in the same way in the accounts of the county councils from whom they receive the grants. I therefore move the Amendment.

New clause:— The Commissioners of Inland Revenue shall, not more than eight days after they have, under the provisions of this Act, paid any moneys in respect of any rate on tithe rent-charge, make out and forward to the council of the county borough or administrative county wherein the hereditaments out of which that tithe rent-charge arises are situate, a certificate stating the amount of the payment and the name of the benefice to which the tithe rent-charge is attached."—(Mr. Humphreys-Owen.)

Brought up and read the first time.

Motion made and Question proposed, "That the clause be read a second time."

MR. LONG

The suggestion made in the proposed new clause is a very admirable one, but it is quite unnecessary; because, as a matter of fact, this information is conveyed at the present times and a Return as far as possible made to Parliament in each case for the purposes of those interested. The county councils will obtain information in precisely the same way as they now obtain information in regard to other payments. It would be extremely inconvenient and entirely contrary to practice to cast a statutory obligation upon a Government Department to make these Returns. The information must be provided, and will be provided. The Return will be made in the ordinary course of things, and when moved for by an ordinary Member it would be granted as an unopposed Return. I must therefore ask the Committee to reject this clause.

MR. BRYNMOR JONES (Swansea District)

The right hon. Gentleman has altogether failed to see the real reason why this additional check is required. He says the matter is without precedent, but I am inclined to think that the whole of the first clause of this Bill, so far as the machinery is concerned, is without precedent, when one comes to consider how the matter will work out in practice from the point of view of the local government authorities. The Bill says: The remaining half shall, on demand being made by the collector of rates on the Surveyor of Taxes for the district, be paid by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue out of the sums payable by them to the Local Taxation Account. The reason my hon. friend desires that there should be within eight days a communication from the Commissioners of Inland Revenue to the County Council, is to see that there is nothing irregular, either on the part of the tithe-owner, the collector of rates, or the Surveyor of Taxes. It is useless to tell us that if we desire to see that the Act is applied with absolute accuracy we may correct the matter about twelve months after the transaction by asking for a Return in Parliament, which everybody knows we cannot get unless the Government of the day happen to consent to it. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the mover of this clause is actuated purely and solely by the desire to get the measure into working shape, and to prevent any irregularities whatsoever.

MR. SAMUEL EVANS

Under this Bill the Commissioners of Inland Revenue are to be called upon to pay, not to the county to which it belongs, or ought to belong, but to somebody else, a large sum Of money. Is it unfair to ask that the county council should be informed of what has become of this money? There could not be a more reasonable or necessary Amendment than this proposed new clause. The right hon. Gentleman said there is no precedent for such a course. That cannot be so. Constantly, in Irish and in English Acts of Parliament, you have an obligation put upon public bodies to make Returns to Parliament, and Returns are constantly made. We are told that the information will be laid upon the Table of the House in the shape of Returns. But it is important, in order to have a check upon these various claims which will be made for the remission of half the rates, to have not merely the total amount given, but the individual items. I do not know whether the local authorities are bound to give the particulars of the various benefices to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue: we have not been told that they must. All the rating authorities have to do is to certify what is the amount they require to make up the half of the rates they have remitted, and the Commissioners are bound to pay that sum. If they refused, there would be a remedy against them in the Courts of Law by mandamus or otherwise. What check have they that the half of the rates which are asked for are rates which have to be remitted? But if you, by this clause, compel them to make this Return to the county councils, the Commissioners of Inland Revenue will be entitled to ask the various rating authorities for the particulars showing how the sum asked for is made up. Supposing this were money belonging to an individual instead of to a county council, can anybody say, with any fairness at all, that it is not right and proper that the individual who otherwise would have received the money should have a full and detailed account of the money which has been paid to somebody else on his behalf? That is the sole object of the clause. If this is a reasonable and proper Amendment, as the right hon. Gentleman has admitted it is, it ought to be inserted in the Bill. The object of the Government in refusing these Amendments is to avoid the Report stage, when we could again bring forward our arguments. That is the object of the Report stage. The Government, if they are logical, will move that hereafter there shall be no Report stage at all. That is a much better and simpler way, and if they did that they would be forging a weapon which we should be able to use against them at no very distant date.

MR. LAMBERT

I had thought myself of moving an Amendment, for the county councils are really anxious that there shall not be more money deducted from their local funds than is absolutely necessary, and they want a thoroughly efficient check over the money taken out of the Local Taxation Account. May I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman the desirability of putting into the Bill some machinery whereby a greater check can be placed upon the expenditure of this money. This is a matter of great importance to the county council, and the suggestion I have made is one which has the approval of the officials of the Devon County Council.

MR. H. S. SAMUEL (Tower Hamlets, Limehouse)

I think the Amendment of my hon. friend is a very important one, which everyone must see is absolutely necessary if the county council is to have any check upon the expenditure of the money. This money belongs to the county council in the first place, and we propose to intercept money which should go into the county fund, and the proposal is that every collector of taxes should make a Return to the county council to show exactly the amount of money that is charged to that particular county. I may say that that is what is done at the present time in reference to main roads. I can conceive of a large amount of money being charged if the collectors were so inclined, for they could send anything up to the Inland Revenue Commissions unless the county council had some check over them. I think this is a very important Amendment, and I hope my hon. friend will press it to a Division.

MR. LOGAN

No matter what protests we may make, it seems to me that the Committee stage is practically passed, for the Government have decided to refuse all Amendments, no matter how important they are. The right hon. Gentleman admits that this is a very reasonable Amendment.

MR. LONG

What I said was, that what the hon. Member desired was reasonable, but his Amendment was perfectly unnecessary.

MR. LOGAN

The right hon. Gentleman admits that the object at which my hon. friend is aiming is perfectly reasonable, therefore it seems to me that he ought to accept this Amendment. We want to see that these accounts are properly kept, and, above all, I desire that the Inland Revenue Commissioners and the rating authorities should be perfectly certain that the moneys should be collected from the proper quarter, and for this reason I shall support the Amendment. I also desire that the ratepayers in the locality should know the names of these gentlemen who, in future, will receive outdoor relief at our expense, and I wish to see their names published, so that we shall know whom we have got to keep out of our hard earnings.

MR. DALZIEL

I rise to ask the right hon. Gentleman what he means when he says that this new clause is unnecessary, for in his first speech he told us the suggestion was an admirable one. He says that this will be carried out by the Bill as it stands, but is the right hon. Gentleman accurate when he says that? My hon. friend asks that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue shall within eight days send a Return of where the money has been expended. That certainly will not be carried out by the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman. As you are taking money from the ratepayers in certain areas, surely it is a small request to ask that you should give them an account within a reasonable time as to how the money has been spent. I think the Amendment is quite reasonable, but reasonableness has no attraction so far as this Committee is concerned.

MR. STUART (Shoreditch, Hoxton)

What I desire to see is that some sound financial position should be adopted. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to speak on behalf of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, but I think he ought to assure us that at least attention has been properly given by the Government to this question.

MR. LONG

I cannot possibly undertake to say that this can be done, because it would be clearly against the best possible information and advice we have received with regard to the operation of this Act.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

The position now taken up by the right hon. Gentleman is that he will give us information and let us know something about what happens in good time, but our point is will he give information with regard to each individual case? In the Education Department we get Returns with regard to every school board in the country, and we get full information with regard to the different grants. But in regard to Voluntary schools an attempt was made to secure a Return in regard to voluntary subscriptions, but we have not been able to get any information. We have made an appeal upon this question to the Vice-President of the Council, but he refers us to somebody else, and nobody seems prepared to carry out the promise which was given us to supply this information in regard to the Voluntary schools. We know from experience the value of these indefinite vague undertakings. If the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Agriculture gave us his word we know what it would mean, but he declines to give it. I remember what happened when one of the great measures of this Government dealing with prison made goods was passed by this House. The President of the Board of Trade then undertook that he would give us a Return as to the operation of the Bill, and we asked for a statutory obligation to that effect. The President of the Board of Trade promised to give us that Return, but it has never been published up to this day. If a statutory obligation had been inserted in that Bill, we should have had that Return, and the Department dare not have refused it; but we have been relying upon these vague voluntary promises which are never carried out. I do not say that the right hon. Gentleman did not intend to carry out his promise, but it has not been done.

THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. RITCHIE,) Croydon

Will the hon. Gentleman quote the promise?

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

I cannot turn up the passage in Hansard just at the moment, but I will ask the right hon. Gentleman if he denies that he promised that such a Return would be made?

MR. RITCHIE

What Return?

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

It was a Return as to the goods manufactured in foreign prisons. In the Bill we are now considering, the county council has no opportunity of scrutinising and overhauling these proceeding. I would point out to the Committee that merely providing for accounts from the surveyor of taxes is not a sufficient guarantee that the thing will be done thoroughly, for sometimes you get very competent officials and sometimes you do not. Occasionally you get gentlemen who are strongly in sympathy with the local clergymen. In some areas you have got forty or fifty parishes, and how is the surveyor of taxes going to examine the separate accounts kept in all those parishes, for it is no business of the collectors to audit the accounts, for his duty is simply to get as much money as he can out of the Government. Therefore, the surveyor of taxes has no access to the assessment account except by making a visit to each of these forty or fifty parishes, which is practically impossible. The result will be that under the proposal of the Government these duties will be perfunctorily performed, and these demand notes presented by the local collector of taxes will be accepted without any scrutiny at all, because the account will be paid by someone in London. This is the way in which the finances of the country are to be conducted, and I should like to know if the right hon. Gentleman can produce a single precedent for this proposal. Somebody should be appointed to inquire into the matter. When the Agricultural Rating Bill was before the House we raised the point then. We said we had really no check. But we were told we had the surveyor of taxes. I make no complaint against the surveyor of taxes, but you are asking him to do a thing for which he has no machinery or officers on which to rely. If the clause of my hon. friend were adopted, it would be a totally different thing. The county councils have representatives in every parish, and they could make inquiries. Supposing a Return came down, in eight days the Members of the Finance Committee coming from every part of the country would go through the accounts, and carefully scrutinise the demand. These safeguards are not desired by the Govern-

ment. All they require is that their friends should pillage all they can out of the taxation of the country.

Mr. LONG

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be, now put."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 202; Noes, 97. (Division List, No. 265.)

AYES.
Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden	Doughty, George.	Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)
Archdale, Edward Mervyn	Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S.	Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie
Arnold, Alfred	Doxford, William Theodore	Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset)
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.	Drucker, A.	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.	Long, Col. Charles W. (Eveshan
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy	Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward	Long, Rt Hn. Walter (Liverpool
Baird, J. George Alexander	Finch, George H.	Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller
Barres, Lord	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Lorne, Marquess of
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r	Firbank, Joseph Thomas	Lowe, Francis William
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds)	Fisher, William Hayes	Lowles, John
Banbury, Frederick George	Fison, Frederick William	Lucas-Shadwell, William
Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. S.-(Hunts.)	Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)	Macartney, W. G. Ellison
Bartley, George C.T.	Galloway, William Johnson	Macdona, John Cumming
Barton, Dunbar Plunket	Gedge, Sydney	MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir. M. H. (Br'st'l)	Gibbons, J. Lloyd	M'lver, Sir L. (Edinburgh,W.)
Beckett, Ernest William	Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (C. of Lond.)	Malcolm, Ian
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe	Godson, Sir Augustus Fred.	Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.
Bentinck, Lord Henry C.	Goldsworthy, Major-General	Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Beresford, Lord Charles	Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (St. Geo,'s	Milbank, Sir Powlett Charles J.
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Goschen, George J.(Sussex)	Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Goulding, Edward Alfred	Milner, Sir Frederick George
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Graham, Henry Robert	Milton, Viscount
Bousfield, William Robert	Gray, Ernest(West Ham)	Milward, Colonel Victor
Brassey, Albert	Green, Walford D.(Wedn'sbury	Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs).	More, Robt. Jasper (Shropsh.)
Brookfield, A. Montagu	Greville, Hon. Ronald	Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)
Bullard, Sir Harry	Gull, Sir Cameron	Morrell, George Herbert
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles	Morrison, Walter
Carlile, William Walter	Halsey, Thomas Frederick	Morton, Arthur HA (Deptford)
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)	Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo.	Mount, William George
Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbysh.)	Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robt. Wm.	Muntz, Philip A.
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Hanson, Sir Reginald	Murray, Rt Hn. A. Grahm. (Bute
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)	Hardy, Laurence	Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.	Hare, Thomas Leigh	Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm	Henderson, Alexander	Nicholson, William Graham
Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r)	Hill, Sir Edward Stock (Bristol)	Nicol, Donald Ninian
Charrington, Spencer	Hobhouse, Henry	Northcote, Hon. Sir H. S.
Chelsea, Viscount	Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow)	O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E.	Hornby, Sir William Henry	Pender, Sir James
Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry	Pierpoint, Robert
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse	Howell, William Tudor	Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton)
Colomb, Sir John C. Ready	Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil	Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Compton, Lord Alwyne	Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Cornwallis, F. Stanley W.	Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-	Purvis, Robert
Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.	Jebb, Richard Claverhouse	Rankin, Sir James.
Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge	Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)	Rentoul, James Alexander
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)	Jolliffe, Hon. H. George	Richards, Henry Charles
Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Kemp, George	Richardson, Sir Thos. (Hartlep'l
Curzon, Viscount	Kenyon, James	Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W.
Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William	Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)	Kimber, Henry	Robertson, Herbert(Hackney)
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.	Lafone, Alfred	Round, James
Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-	Laurie, Lieut.-General	Royds, Clement Molynenx
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)	Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Rutherford, John	Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier	Willox, Sir John Archibald
Ryder, John Herbert Dudley	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Sandys, Lieut.-Col. T. Myles	Thornton, Percy M.	Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh., N.
Seton-Karr, Henry	Tollemache, Henry James	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Simeon, Sir Barrington	Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray	Wylie, Alexander
Skewes-Cox, Thomas	Valentia, Viscount	Wyndham, George
Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)	Wanklyn, James Leslie	Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)	Ward, Hon. Robert A.(Crewe)	Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Spencer, Ernest	Warde, Lieut.-Col. C.E.(Kent	Young, Commander(Berks.E.)
Stanley, Hon. Arthr. (Ormskirk	Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)	Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.	Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd	Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Stock, James Henry	Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley	Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm
NOES.
Abraham, W. (Rhondda)	Horniman, Frederick John	Power, Patrick Joseph
Asher, Alexander	Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.	Price, Robert John
Austin, M. (Limerick, W)	Joicey, Sir James	Provand, Andrew Dryburgh
Barlow, John Emmott	Jones, D. Brymnor (Swansea)	Randell, David
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)	Reckitt, Harold James
Billson, Alfred	Kilbride, Denis	Rickett, J. Compton
Birrell, Augustine	Labouchere, Henry	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)
Bolton, Thomas Dolling	Lambert, George	Samuel, J.(Stockton on Tees)
Burns, John	Langley, Batty	Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Caldwell, James	Lawson-Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land	Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)	Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Channing, Francis Allston	Leuty, Thomas Richmond	Sinclair, Capt, John (Forfarshire
Clark, Dr. G. B.(Caithness)	Lewis, John Herbert	Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Colville, John	Lloyd-George, David	Souttar, Robinson
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Logan, John William	Spicer, Albert
Crilly, Daniel	Macaleese, Daniel	Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.
Curran, Thomas(Sligo, S.)	MacDonnell, Dr M A (Queen'sC)	Steadman, William Charles
Dalziel, James Henry	M'Crae, George	Stevenson, Francis S.
Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan	M'Dermott, Patrick	Stuart, James (Shoreditch)
Davitt, Michael	M'Ewan, William	Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Donelan, Captain A.	Ghee, Richard	Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)
Doogan, P. C.	M'Kenna, Reginald	Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr
Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark)	M'Leod, John	Warner, Thomas CourtenayT.
Duckworth, James	Maddison, Fred.	Wedderburn, Sir William
Edwards, Owen Morgan	Maden, John Henry	Whiteley, George (Stockport)
Ellis, John Edward	Morgan, W. P. (Merthyr)	Williams, John Carvell (Notts)
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)	Morley, Charles (Breconshire)	Wilson, H. J. (York, W.R.)
Fenwick, Charles	Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)	Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudder'd
Ferguson, R. C. Munro(Leith	Nussey, Thomas Willans	Yoxall, James Henry
Flynn, James Christopher	O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.
Goddard, Daniel Ford	Oldroyd, Mark	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William	Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)	Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur.
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-	Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Hedderwick, Thomas C. H.	Pilkington, Sir G. A (Lancs, S W)

Question put accordingly, "That the clause be read a second time."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 97; Noes, 202. (Division List, No. 266.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)	Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale-
Asher, Alexander	Dalziel, James Henry	Hedderwick, Thomas C. H.
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)	Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardig'n)	Horniman, Frederick John
Barlow, John Emmott	Davitt, Michael	Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Donelan, Captain A.	Joicey, Sir James
Billson, Alfred	Doogan, P. C.	Jones, David Brynmor (Swans.)
Birrell, Augustine	Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark)	Jones, William (Carn'rvonshire
Bolton, Thomas Dolling	Duckworth, James	Kilbride, Denis
Burns, John	Edwards, Owen Morgan	Labouchere, Henry
Caldwell, James	Ellis, John Edward	Lambert, George
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan)	Langley, Batty
Channing, Francis Allston	Fenwick, Charles	Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'l'nd
Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.)	Ferguson, R. C. M. (Leith)	Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)
Colville, John	Flynn, James Christopher	Leuty, Thomas Richmond
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Goddard, Daniel Ford	Lewis, John Herbert
Crilly, Daniel	Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir W.
Lloyd-George, David	Pease, J. A. (Northumb.)	Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.
Logan, John William	Pickersgill, Edward Hare	Steadman, William Charles
Macaleese, Daniel	Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs S W)	Stevenson, Francis S.
MacDonnell, Dr. M. A. (Qu'n's C	Power, Patrick Joseph	Stuart, James (Shoreditch)
M'Crae, George	Price, Robert John	Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
M'Dermott, Patrick	Provand, Andrew Dryburgh	Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)
M'Ewan, William	Randell, David	Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr)
M'Ghee, Richard	Reckitt, Harold James	Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
M'Kenna, Reginald	Rickett, J. Compton	Wedderburn, Sir William
M'Leod, John	Roberts, John H.(Denbighs.)	Whiteley, George(Stockport)
Maddison, Fred.	Samuel,J.(Stockton-on-Tees)	Williams, John Carvell (Notts.)
Maden, John Henry	Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)	Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.
Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merth'r	Shaw, Charles E.(Stafford)	Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd
Morley, Charles (Breconshire)	Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)	Yoxall, James Henry
Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)	Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.)
Nussey, Thomas Willans	Soames, Arthur Wellesley	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.	Souttar, Robinson	Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur
Oldroyd, Mark	Spicer, Albert
NOES.
Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden	Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-	Kimber, Henry
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Lafone, Alfred
Archdale, Edward Mervyn	Doughty, George	Laurie, Lieut.-General
Arnold, Alfred	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.	Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S.	Lea, Sir Thos. (Londonderry)
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Doxford, William Theodore	Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy	Drucker, A.	Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie
Baird, John George Alexander	Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.	Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset)
Balcarres, Lord	Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Ed ward	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)	Finch, George H.	Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverp'l)
Banbury, Frederick George	Firbank, Joseph Thomas	Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller
Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts	Fisher, William Hayes	Lorne, Marquess of
Bartley, George C. T.	Fison, Frederick William	Lowe, Francis William
Barton, Dunbar Plunket	Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)	Lowles, John
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol	Galloway, William Johnson	Lucas-Shadwell, William
Beckett, Ernest William	Gedge, Sydney	Macartney, W. G. Ellison
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe	Gibbons, J. Lloyd	Macdona, John Cumming
Bentinck, Lord Henry C.	Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lon)	MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Beresford, Lord Charles	Godson, Sir Augustus Fred.	M'Iver, Sir L.(Edinburgh, W.)
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Goldsworthy, Major-General	Malcolm, Ian
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Goschen, Rt. Hn G J (St George's	Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W F.
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Goschen, George J.(Sussex)	Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.
Bousfield, William Robert	Goulding, Edward Alfred	Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas. J.
Brassey, Albert	Graham, Henry Robert	Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Gray, Ernest (West Ham)	Milner, Sir Frederick George
Brookfield, A. Montagu	Green, Walford D (Wednesbury	Milton, Viscount
Bullard, Sir Harry	Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.	Milward, Colonel Victor
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Greville, Hon. Ronald	Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Carlile, William Walter	Gull, Sir Cameron	More, Robert J.(Shropshire)
Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs.)	Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles	Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'th S h
Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbysh.)	Halsey, Thomas Frederick	Morrell, George Herbert
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George	Morrison, Walter
Cecil, Evelyn(Hertford, East)	Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert W.	Morton, Arthur HA(Deptford)
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.	Hanson, Sir Reginald	Mount, William George
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.	Hardy, Laurence	Muntz, Philip A.
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r	Hare, Thomas Leigh	Murray, Rt. Hn. A.G.(Bute)
Charrington, Spencer	Henderson, Alexander	Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)
Chelsea, Viscount	Hill, Sir Edward Stock (Bristol)	Murray, Col. W yndham(Bath)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Hobhouse, Henry	Nicholson, William Graham
Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow)	Nicol Donald Ninian
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse	Hornby, Sir William Henry	Northcote, Hon Sir H Stafford
Colomb, Sir John Charles R.	Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry	O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Compton, Lord Ailwyn	Howell, William Tudor	Pender, Sir James
Cornwallis, F. Stanley W.	Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil	Pierpoint, Robert
Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.	Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn	Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton)
Cox, Irwin E. Bainbridge	Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-	Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Cross, Alexander(Glasgow)	Jebb, Richard Claverhouse	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)	Purvis, Robert
Curzon, Viscount	Jolliffe, Hon. H. George	Rankin, Sir James
Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Kemp, George	Rentoul, James Alexander
Davies, Sir Horatio D.(Chat.)	Kenyon, James	Richards, Henry Charles
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.	Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William	Richardson, Sir Thos(Hartlop'l
Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)	Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chs. Thomson	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M.	Williams, Jos. Powell-(Birm.)
Robertson, Herbert(Hackney)	Stock, James Henry	Willox, Sir John Archibald
Round, James	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Royds, Clement Molyneux	Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier	Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh N.)
Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Rutherford, John	Thornton, Percy M.	Wylie, Alexander
Ryder, John Herbert Dudley	Tollemache, Henry James	Wyndham, George
Sandys, Lieut.-Col. T. Myles	Tominson, Wm. Edw. Murray	Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Seton-Karr, Henry	Valentia, Viscount	Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Simeon, Sir Barrington	Wanklyn, James Leslie	Young, Commander(Berks,E.)
Skewer-Cox, Thomas	Ward, Hon. Robert A.(Crewe)
Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)	Warde, Lieut.-Col. C.E.(Kent	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Smith, Hon. W.F. D.(Strand)	Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Spencer, Ernest	Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)	Wharton, Rt. Hon. J. Lloyd

MR. D. A. THOMAS moved, "That the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again," but the Chairman, being of opinion that the motion was an abuse of the rules of the House, declined to propose the Question thereupon to the Committee.

* THE CHAIRMAN

The next Amendment in order is the second Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Mid-Glamorganshire.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

On a point of order, I wish to ask whether the Amendment of the hon. Member for Shoreditch is not in order. What he proposes is to insert the following clause: For the purposes of this Act returns shall be made annually, and presented to Parliament by the Local Government Board—

1. "(a) By every rating authority, showing the sums actually exempted by them in respect of the rating of tithes in accordance with the provisions of this Act.
2. "(b) By the Local Government Board, showing for each county and county borough the total amount of rates exempted by this Act, and the amount by which the Exchequer contribution fund of each county and county borough falls short in consequence of the payment out of the Local Taxation Account under provisions of this Act."

That is taken bodily out of the Agricultural Rating Act, and is for a similar purpose. Therefore I submit it is in order and not inconsistent with anything that has been done.

* THE CHAIRMAN

That Amendment deals with the same subject matter as the clause which the Committee has just refused to accept. The subject is not dealt with in the same way, but the subject matter is the same, and the clause should properly come as an Amendment to the clause which has been rejected.

MR. SAMUEL EVANS

If this Amendment were in the hands of anyone else I should be inclined to describe it as a most important Amendment, and I should deplore that it had to be taken at such an hour of the morning. It is not my fault that the clause smacks of language somewhat of an ecclesiastical character, but it is absolutely accurate in accordance with the form of the writ in such cases. The clause reads as follows:— This Act shall not apply while the said tithe rent-charge, or any other fruits, profits, oblations, obventions, ecclesiastical rights, or emoluments of or attaching to the benefice shall be sequestered by a writ of fieri facias de bonis ecclesiasticis or any other writ of sequestration. Sequestration in clerical affairs is really bankruptcy. If a man in such circumstances were not a clergyman he would be called a bankrupt. The reason why a separate writ has to be issued is that a clergyman's goods are supposed to be of a somewhat sacred character, and are not to be touched by lay hands. In ordinary life a man whose goods are seized by an Official Receiver is termed a bankrupt, and he is not able to fulfil ordinary civic duties or obligations. If he be a member of a school board or of a board of guardians he ceases to be a member. A Member of this House may be guilty of all sorts of things, but he must not be a bankrupt. If he is he ceases to be a Member. But, curiously enough, until the Clergy Discipline Act of a few years ago a living could not by any proceeding be taken out of the hands of the holder of a benefice even though he were a bankrupt. Even now a distinction is made. It is assumed unless the bishop takes proceedings that a clergyman is fit to preach to his congregation that they ought to pay their debts, and to render unto Cæsar that which is his, although he himself cannot pay his creditors. Under such circumstances it cannot be right that the tithe rent-charge attached to a benefice which is sequestrated should be free from rates. Everyone will admit that. When he ceases to enjoy the profits of the benefice by reason of having got into difficulties with his creditors, surely the reason for exemption no longer applies, and there is no reason why the creditors should be entitled to the relief. Everything that he has is seized under this writ.

New clause (provisions as to sequestrated benefices)—(Mr. Samuel Evans)—brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."

SIR R. B. FINLAY

The hon. Member has forgotten that a writ of sequestration is an execution rather than a bankruptcy. I trust he will not seriously press this clause. May I point out that the maintenance of proper services in the parish is a first charge on the revenue of the living, even though it be under sequestration. Sequestration, too, does not last a very long time, for, if it is likely to, then pro-

vision is made for removing the clergyman from the benefice. Take an ordinary case where a writ is in force for a short time. Surely it would be extremely inconvenient to have to make a certain abatement of rates for say a period of six weeks? Would it not be more convenient that the same rule should continue to apply, even if there be a temporary execution in force? I hope the hon. and learned Member will not press the Amendment.

MR. M'KENNA (Monmouthshire, N.)

The suggestion of the Solicitor-General seems to be that, inasmuch as a writ of sequestration only lasts a short period, this Amendment is unnecessary. But this Bill is also only to last a brief time, and it is quite possible that a writ of sequestration may run the whole length of its duration. I think my hon. friend has made out a clear case in favour of this Amendment, although it is evident that the Government had determined to accept no alteration that is proposed, however valuable it may be.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 97; Noes, 201. (Division List, No. 267.)

AYES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm.	Nussey, Thomas Willans
Asher, Alexander	Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-	O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.
Austin, M.(Limerick, W.)	Hedderwick, Thomas C. H.	Oldroyd, Mark
Barlow, John Emmott	Hornman, Frederick John	Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.
Bayley, Thomas(Derbyshire)	Humpheys-Owen, Arthur C.	Pickersgill, Edward Hare
Billson, Alfred	Joicey, Sir James	Pilkingion, Sir Geo A (Lancs S W
Birrell, Augustine	Jones, David B.(Swansea)	Power, Patrick Joseph
Bolton, Thomas Dolling	Jones, W.(Carnarvonshire)	Price, Robert John.
Burns, John	Kilbriile, Denis	Provand, Andrew Dryburgh
Caldwell, James	Labouchere, Henry	Randell, David
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Lambert, George	Reckitt, Harold James
Channing, Francis Allston	Langley, Batty	Rickett, J. Compton
Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.)	Lawson, Sir W.(Cumberland)	Roberts, John H.(Denbighs.)
Colville, John	Leese, Sir J. F.(Accrington)	Samuel, J.(Stockton-on-Tees)
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Leuty, Thomas Richmond	Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)
Crilly, Daniel	Lewis, John Herbert	Shaw, Charles Edw.(Stafford)
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)	Lloyd-George, David	Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)
Dalziel, James Henry	Logan, John William	Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.)
Davies, M. V.-(Cardigan)	Macaleese, Daniel	Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Davitt, Michael	Mac Donnell, Dr. M. A. (Q's C.)	Souttar, Robinson
Donelan, Captain A.	M'Arthur, William (Cornwall	Spicer, Albert
Doogan, P. C.	M'Crae, George.	Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.
Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark)	Dermott, Patrick	Steadman, William Charles
Duckworth, James	M'Ewan, William	Steadman, William Charles
Edwards, Owen Morgan	M'Ghee, Richard	Stevenson, Francis S.
Ellis, John Edward	M'Leod, John	Stuart, James (Shoreditch)
Fenwick, Charles	Maddison, Fred.	Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Ferguson, R. C. Munro(Leith)	Maden, John Henry	Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)
Flynn, James Christopher	Morgan, W. P. (Merthr)	Thomas, D. A. (Merthyr)
Gladstone, Rt. Hon. H. John	Morley, Charles (Breconshire)	Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Goddard, Daniel Ford	Morton, E. J. C.(Devonport)
Wedderburn, Sir William	Wilson, Henry J.(York, W.R.)	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Whiteley, George(Stockport)	Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd	Mr. Samuel Evans and Mr. M'Kenna.
Williams, John Carvell (Notts)	Yoxall, James Henry
NOES.
Allhusen, Augustus Henry E.	Galloway, Wm. Johnson	Morrell, George Herbert
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Gedge, Sydney	Morrison, Walter
Archdale, Edward Mervyn	Gibbons, J. Lloyd	Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)
Arnold, Alfred	Gibbs, Hn A. G. H. (City of Lond.	Mount, William George
Arnold-Foster, Hugh O.	Godson, Sir A. Frederick	Muntz, Philip A.
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Goldsworthy, Major-General	Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute
Bagot, Captain J.FitzRoy	Goschen, Rt Hn G. J. (St George's	Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Baird, John George A.	Goschen, George J.(Sussex)	Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Balcarres, Lord	Goulding, Edward Alfred	Nicholson, William Graham
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Man'r	Graham, Henry Robert	Nicol, Donald Ninian
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds)	Gray, Ernest(West Ham)	Northcote, Hon. Sir H. S.
Banbury, Frederick George	Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)	O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts	Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)	Pender, Sir James
Bartley, George C. T.	Greville, Hon. Ronald	Pierpoint, Robert
Barton, Dunbar Plunket	Gull, Sir Cameron	Pilkington, R.(Lancs, Newton)
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol	Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles	Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Beckett, Ernest William	Halsey, Thomas Frederick	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe	Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord G.	Purvis, Robert
Bentinck, Lord Henry C.	Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. W.	Rankin, Sir James
Beresford, Lord Charles	Hanson, Sir Reginald	Rentoul, James Alexander
Bhownagree, Sir M. M.	Hardy, Laurence	Richards, Henry Charles
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Hare, Thomas Leigh	Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol)	Ridley, Rt. Hon Sir Matthew W
Bousfield, William Robert	Hobhouse, Henry	Ritchie, Rt. Hon Chas. Thomson
Brassey, Albert	Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow)	Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Hornby, Sir William Henry	Round, James
Brookfield, A. Montagu	Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry	Royds, Clement Molyneux
Bullard, Sir Harry	Howell, William Tudor	Russell, T. W.(Tyrone)
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil	Rutherford, John
Carlile, William Walter	Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn	Ryder, John Herbert Dudley
Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs.)	Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-	Sandys, Lieut.-Col. T. Myles
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)	Jebb, Richard Claverhouse	Seton-Karr, Henry
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)	Simeon, Sir Barrington
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, E.)	Jolliffe, Hon. H. George	Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.	Kemp, George	Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.
Chamberlan, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.	Kenyon, James	Smith, Hon. W. F. D.(Strand)
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r	Kenyon-Slaney Col. William	Spencer, Ernest
Charrington, Spencer	Kimber, Henry	Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk
Chelsea, Viscount	Lafone, Alfred	Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.	Laurie, Lieut.-General	Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)	Stock, James Henry
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse	Lea, Sir Thomas (Londonderry)	Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley
Colomb, Sir John Charles R.	Lees, Sir Elliott(Birkenhead)	Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier
Compton, Lord Alwyne	Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie	Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W.	Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset)	Thornton, Percy M.
Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Edw. T. D.	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine	Tollemache, Henry James
Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge	Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)	Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)	Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverpool)	Valentia, Viscount
Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller	Wanklyn, James Leslie
Curzon, Viscount	Lorne, Marquess of	Ward, Hon. Robert A.(Crewe)
Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Lowe, Francis William	Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent)
Davies, Sir Horatio D(Chatham	Lowles, John	Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.	Lucas-Shadwell, William	Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-
Digby, J. K. D. Wingfield-	Macartney, W. G. Ellison	Wharton, Rt. Hon. Jno. Lloyd
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Macdona, John Cumming	Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Doughty, George	Maclver, David(Liverpool)	Williams, Jos. Powell (Birm.)
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinb,W.)	Willox Sir John Archibald
Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S.	Malcolm, Ian	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Doxford, William Theodore	Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F	Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.
Drucker, A.	Meysey-Thompson Sir H M.	Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-
Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.	Milbank, Sir Powlett Charles J.	Wylie, Alexander
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edwd.	Mildmay, Francis Bingham	Wymdham, George
Finch, George H.	Milner, Sir Frederick George	Wyndham-Quin, Major W.H.
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Milton, Viscount	Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Firbank, Joseph Thomas	Milward, Colonel Victor	Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Fisher, William Hayes	Moon, Edward Robert Pacy	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Fison, Frederick William	More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)	Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)	Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)

* THE CHAIRMAN

The remaining clauses on the Paper are out of order.

MR. LABOUCHERE

Perhaps, Sir, you have overlooked the Amendment standing in my name, which I have been waiting here three weary days to propose. The new clause I wish to propose is—

"The county council of any county may determine by resolution that the provisions in this Act contained shall not for the time

being, and until the resolution is rescinded, apply within the area of the county."

* THE CHAIRMAN

It should have come on as a proviso at the end of the first clause.

Question put, "That the Chairman do report the Bill, without Amendment, to the House."

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 189; Noes, 94. (Division List, No. 268).

AYES.
Allhusen, Augstus Hen. Eden	Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-	Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)
Anson, Sir William Reynell	Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S.	Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie
Archdale, Edward Mervyn	Doxford, William Theordore	Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset)
Arnold, Alfred	Drucker, A.	Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine
Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.	Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.	Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John	Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.	Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (L'pool)
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy	Finch, George H.	Lorne, Marquess of
Baird, John George Alexander	Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne	Lowe, Francis William
Balcarres, Lord	Firbank, Joseph Thomas	Lowles, John
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r	Fisher, William Hayes	Lucas-Shadwell, William
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W.(Leeds)	Fison, Frederick William	Macartney, W. G. Ellison
Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts	Foster, Colonel(Lancaster)	Macdona, John Cumming
Bartley, George C.T.	Galloway, William Johnson	MacIver, David (Liverpool)
Burton, Dunbar Plunket	Gedge, Sydney	M'Iver, Sir Lewis Edinb'h, W.)
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol	Gibbons, J. Lloyd	Malcolm, Ian
Beckett, Ernest William	Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (C. of Lond.)	Massey-Mainwaring, Hon. W. F
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe	Godson, Sir Augustus Fred.	Maysey-Thompson, Sir M. H.
Bentinck, Lord Henry C.	Goldsworthy, Major-General	Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas John
Beresford, Lord Charles	Goschen, Ht Hn G J (St George's)	Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.	Goschen, George J. (Sussex)	Milner, Sir Frederick George
Blundell, Colonel Henry	Goulding, Edward Alfred	Milton, Viscount
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-	Graham, Henry Robert	Milward, Colonel Victor
Bousfield, William Robert	Gray, Ernest (West Ham)	Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Brassey, Albert	Green, W. D.(Wednesbury)	More, Rbt. Jasper (Shropshire)
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John	Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)	Morgan, Hn. Fred (Monm'thsh.)
Brookfield, A. Montagu	Greville, Hon. Ronald	Morrell, George Herbert
Bullard, Sir Harry	Gull, Sir Cameron	Morrison, Walter
Burdett-Coutts, W.	Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles	Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute
Carlile, William Walter	Halsey, Thomas Frederick	Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)
Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs.	Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George	Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath)
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)	Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. Wm.	Nicol, Donald Ninian
Cayzer, Sir Charles William	Hanson, Sir Reginald	Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford
Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)	Hardy, Laurence	O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens
Chaloner, Captain R. G.W.	Hare, Thomas Leigh	Pender, Sir James
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)	Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol)	Pierpoint, Robert
Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r	Hobhouse, Henry	Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton)
Charrington, Spencer	Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow)	Platt-Higgins, Frederick
Chelsea, Viscount	Hornby, Sir William Henry	Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.	Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry	Purvis, Robert
Cohen, Benjamin Louis	Howell, William Tudor	Rentoul, James Alexander
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse	Hozier, Hon. Jas. Henry Cecil	Richards, Henry Charles
Colomb, Sir Jno. Chas. Ready	Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn	Richardson, Sir Thos (Hartlep'l)
Compton, Lord Alwyne	Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-	Ridley, Rt Hon Sir Matthew W.
Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W.	Jebb, Richard Claverhouse	Ritchie, Rt. Hon Charles T.
Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.	Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)	Robertson, Herbert(Hackney)
Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge	Jolliffe, Hon. H. George	Round, James
Cubitt, Hon. Henry	Kemp, George	Royds, Clement Molyneux
Curzon, Viscount	Kenyon, James	Russell, T. W.(Tyrone)
Dalrymple, Sir Charles	Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William	Rutherford, John
Davies, Sir H. D.(Chatham)	Kimber, Henry	Ryder, John Herbert Dudley
Dickson-Poynder, Sir J. P.	Lafone, Alfred	Sandys, Lieut-Col. Thomas M.
Dighy, John K. D. Wingfield-	Laurie, Lieut.-General	Simeon, Sir Barrington
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph	Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)	Skewes-Cox, Thomas
Doughty, George	Lea, Sir Thomas (Londonderry)	Smith, James P. (Lanarks)
Smith, Hon. W. F. D.(Strand)	Tollemache, Henry James	Willox, Sir John Archibald
Spencer, Ernest	Tomlinson, Wm. Edward M.	Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Stanley, Hon. A.(Ormskirk)	Valentia, Viscount	Wylie, Alexander
Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)	Ward, Hon. Robert A.(Crewe)	Wyndham, George
Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.	Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent)	Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Stock, James Henry	Welby, Lieut-Col. A. C. E.	Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley	Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-	Young, Commander(Berks, E.)
Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier	Wharton, Rt. Hon. John L.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Talbot, Lord E.(Chichester)	Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Thornton, Percy M.	Williams, J. Powell-(Birm.)
NOES.
Abraham, William (Rhondda)	Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.	Power, Patrick Joseph
Asher, Alexander	Joicey, Sir James	Price, Robert John
Austin, M.(Limerick, W.)	Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea)	Provand, Andrew Dryburgh
Barlow, John Emmott	Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)	Randell, David
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)	Kilbride, Denis	Reckitt, Harold James
Billson, Alfred	Labouchere, Henry	Rickitt, J. Compton
Birrell, Augustine	Lambert, George	Roberts, John H. (Denbighs).
Bolton, Thomas Dolling	Langley, Batty	Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Burns, John	Lawson, Sir W.(Cumberland)	Scott, Chas. Prestwich(Leigh)
Caldwell, James	Leese, Sir J. F.(Accrington)	Shaw, Charles Edw.(Stafford)
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.	Leuty, Thomas Richmond	Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)
Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.)	Lewis, John Herbert	Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.
Colville, John	Lloyd-George, David	Souttar, Robinson
Condon, Thomas Joseph	Logan, John William	Spicer, Albert
Crilly, Daniel	Macaleese, Daniel	Steadman, William Charles
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)	MacDonnell, Dr M A (Qneen's C)	Stevenson, Francis S.
Dalziel, James Henry	M'Crae, George	Stuart, James (Shoreditch)
Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardig'n	M'Dermott, Patrick	Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Davitt, Michael	M'Ewan, William	Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)
Donelan, Captain A.	M'Ghee, Richard	Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr
Doogan, P. C.	M'Kenna, Reginald	Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.
Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark)	M'Leod, John	Wedderburn, Sir William
Duckworth, James	Maddison, Fred.	Williams, John Carvell (Notts.
Edwards, Owen Morgan	Maden, John Henry	Wilson, Henry J. (York. W. R.)
Ellis, John Edward	Morgan, W. P.(Merthyr)	Wilson, John (Falkirk)
Evans, S. T.(Glamorgan)	Morley, Charles (Breconshire)	Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)
Fenwick, Charles	Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)	Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudderf'd
Ferguson, R. C. Munro(Leith)	Nussey, Thomas Willans	Yoxall, James Henry
Flynn, James Christopher	O'Connor, J.(Wicklow, W.)
Goddard, Daniel Ford	Oldroyd, Mark
Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-	Pease, Joseph A.(Northumb.)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Hedderwick, Thomas Charles H	Pickersgill, Edward Hare	Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur.
Horniman, Frederick John	Pilkington, Sir Geo A (Lancs S W

Question put and agreed to.

House resumed.

MR. DALZIEL

On a point of order may I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether, the Twelve o'clock rule having been suspended in respect of the Tithe Rent-charge Bill, it is competent to go on to the next Order of the day? I consider that the Government ought to consult the convenience of Members in all parts of the House.

MR. A. J. BALFOUR

I have not the least objection, to-day being Friday, and in the exceptional circumstances of the case, to move the adjournment of the House.

Motion made and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

On the question of adjournment, I should wish to make a personal explanation to the right hon. the President of the Board of Trade. I stated in the course of the discussion of one of the Amendments that he had given a pledge that certain Returns which had been asked for would be made, and I suggested that that pledge had not been redeemed. I fully admit now that the right hon. Gentleman had fulfilled his pledge.

MR. RITCHIE

was understood to say that he accepted the explanation of the hon. Member for Carnarvon.

House adjourned accordingly at five minutes after Four of the clock in the morning.