Commons Sitting of 13 July 1899

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PRIVATE BILLS [Lords].
  No standing Orders not previously inquired into applicable.
  Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, that in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders not previously inquired into are applicable, namely,

  WESTON-SUPER-MARE GRAND PIER BILL [Lords].
  Ordered, that the Bill be read a second time.
  WEST GLOUCESTERSHIRE WATER BILL.
  Lords Amendment considered, and agreed to.
FURNESS RAILWAY BILL [Lords].
  GLASGOW CORPORATION (GAS AND WATER) BILL [Lords].

    GLASGOW CORPORATION (TRAMWAYS, &c.) BILL [Lords].
    GREAT YARMOUTH CORPORATION BILL [Lords].
    KIRKCALDY CORPORATION AND TRAMWAYS BILL [Lords].
    LOWESTOFT WATER AND GAS BILL [Lords].
    TOTLAND WATER BILL [Lords].
    Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.

PORTSMOUTH CORPORATION BILL [Lords].
Report [11th July] from the Select Committee on Standing Orders read.
Ordered, that the Bill be read a second time.—(Dr. Farquharson.)

PETITIONS.
  POOR LAW AMENDMENT (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1845.
  Petitions for alteration of law; from Ferry-Port-on-Craig, and Montrose; to lie upon the Table.
  TITHE RENT-CHARGE (RATES) BILL.
  Petitions against; from United Presbyterian Synod, and Kirkcaldy; to lie upon the Table.
  TROUT FISHING ANNUAL CLOSE TIME (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Glasgow in favour; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  LIGHT RAILWAYS ACT, 1896.
  Copy presented of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of a light railway in the County of Essex, between Corringham, Thames Haven, and Kynochtown (Corringham Light Railway Order, 1899) [by Command] to lie upon the Table.
  LIGHT RAILWAYS ACT, 1896.
  Copy presented of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of light railways in the County of Lancaster, in the parishes of Barton-upon-Irwell and Stretford (West Manchester Light Railway Order, 1899) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  LIGHT RAILWAYS ACT, 1896.
  Copy presented of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of a light railway between Axminster, in the County of Devon, and Lyme Regis, in the County of Dorset (Axminster and Lyme Regis Light Railway Order, 1899) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  LIGHT RAILWAYS ACT, 1896.
  Copy presented of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of light railways from Colwyn Bay to Llandudno, in the Counties of Denbigh and Carnarvon (Llandudno and Colwyn Bay Light Railways Order, 1898) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  SIERRA LEONE.
  Copy presented of Report by Her Majesty's Commissioner, and correspondence on the subject of the Insurrection in the Sierra Leone Protectorate, 1898. Part II. Evidence and Documents [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  Copies presented of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 2315 and 2316 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  AFRICA (No. 6, 1899).
  Copy presented of Report by the Mombasa-Victoria Uganda Railway Committee on the progress of the works, 1898–9 (with a map) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

ROYAL ASSENT.
Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.
The House went;—and, being returned;—
Mr. SPEAKERreported the Royal Assent to a number of Bills. (See first item in House of Lords Report this day; ante, page 661.)

SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES).
Mr. HALSEYreported from the Committee of Selection that they had discharged the following Member from the Standing Committee on Trade (including Agriculture and Fishing), Shipping, and Manufactures: Mr. Collery; and had appointed in substitution, Mr. Power.
Report to lie upon the Table.

PUBLIC PETITIONS COMMITTEE.
Eight Reports brought up, and read; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
METROPOLITAN POLICE [SALARIES].
Committee to consider of authorising the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of the Salaries of the Commissioner, Receiver, and Assistant Commissioners of the Metropolitan Police (Queen's recommendation signified), upon Monday next.—(Secretary Sir Matthew White Ridley.)
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  QUESTIONS.

    BELLEVILLE BOILERS.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty, whether, before finally sanctioning the adoption of the Belleville boiler for battle ships and cruisers now under construction or contemplated, of which the total cost will exceed £10,000,000, he will order a practical test to be made of the efficiency of these

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    boilers under all conditions, as compared with other boilers; and whether, with this object in view, he will attach the "Canopus," on completion, to the Channel Fleet, and will send a vessel of the "Diadem" class and of the "Edgar" class respectively to carry out Naval reliefs in company.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. GOSCHEN,): The efficiency of the Belleville boiler has been practically tested under various conditions. My hon. friend does not seem to know that vessels with Belleville boilers have already been attached to the Channel Fleet, or that the "Powerful" has been doing excellent and regular service among the cruisers of the China Station. The adoption of the Belleville boiler for the battleships and first class cruisers now under construction has been definitely decided on, and the question so far as these ships are concerned cannot be reopened. The "Canopus" will be commissioned as soon as she is ready, and attached to the Mediterranean Fleet. I cannot make any definite statement in reply to the third question, but the Admiralty are taking advantage of every suitable opportunity to test these boilers to the fullest extent with a view to further possible improvements.

    THE "SHARPSHOOTER."
    MR. PENN: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty how many the "Sharpshooter" has run on her boiler trials, how many tubes has she in her boilers, and how many tubes have been renewed during these trials.
    MR. GOSCHEN: The number of miles run on boiler trials, exclusive of distance run during contractors' trials, was 8,698. The number of tubes in boilers is 1,080. No tubes were renewed during these trials.

    HASLAR HOSPITAL.
    CAPTAIN NORTON: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can state if the medical authorities were consulted in connection with the recent appointment to Haslar Hospital; and whether the appointment made was in accordance with their recommendation.
    MR. GOSCHEN: The qualifications of all the officers whose seniority might en-
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    title them to consideration for the appointment in question were thoroughly and exhaustively sifted in consultation with the Medical Authorities. The responsibility for the ultimate choice rested, as I have stated before, with me. Neither as regards executive, medical, or any other officers am I prepared to say on whose recommendation I act. I must say I think the hon. and gallant Member is somewhat ill-advised in pressing this question.
    CAPTAIN NORTON: The right hon. Gentleman has not answered my question as to whether the appointment was in accordance with the recommendation of the medical authorities.
    MR. GOSCHEN: I have answered the question. I said that the responsibility rested with me and not with the medical authorities, or any class of officers. I am not prepared to state on what recommendation I acted.

    NAVAL WORKS BILL.
    SIR U. KAY - SHUTTLEWORTH: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty when the Naval Works Bill will be introduced.
    MR. GOSCHEN: The Bill is in the hands of the printers, and I hope to be able to arrange with the Leader of the House to introduce it early in the coming week.

    H.M.S. "JACKAL."
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that in the space of four months, between 1st January and 29th April, the crew of H.M.S. "Jackal" were allowed twenty-three days' leave of absence; and whether, in future, the "Jackal" will be more regularly on duty.
    MR. GOSCHEN: No, Sir. During the period in question, the crew of the "Jackal" have had only their ordinary leave for the night or for the Sunday when in harbour, besides the usual fourteen days' leave at Christmas, which was given by watches in accordance with custom.
    MR. WEIR: Does the right hon. Gentleman dispute the accuracy of the statement made by the Lord Advocate?
    MR. SPEAKER: Order, order.

    PLYMOUTH BREAKWATER WORKS.
    MR. MILDMAY: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether it would be possible that workmen employed upon Plymouth Breakwater should be conveyed to and from their work on the steam-tug lately provided for in the Estimates instead of in open boats.
    THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,): This is now being done. The Superintending Engineer gave notice to the workmen of the new arrangements in April last.

    ARMY TENTS.
    MR. DUNCOMBE: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether, during the present summer, there have been, or will be, issued to Volunteer battalions going into camp tents of the pattern known as "Mark 2," many of which are worn out and unserviceable, and quite unfit to withstand rain.
    THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. WYNDHAM,): The General Officer Commanding a District is responsible that all tents issued in his district are serviceable. It may therefore be taken that no "Mark 2" tents will be issued unless they are serviceable.
    MR. DUNCOMBE: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some of these tents have been already issued this year?
    MR. WYNDHAM: If so, then, in the opinion of the General Officer Commanding, they are serviceable.

    VOLUNTEER UNIFORMS.
    MR. DUNCOMBE: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the rapid assimilation of the uniform of Volunteer Infantry battalions to that of their territorial regiments, he is prepared, in the case of Volunteer battalions clothed in scarlet, to amend paragraph 221B of the Volunteer Regulations, so as to permit of such Volunteer battalions using the manual exercises used by Infantry of the Line and amend Section 865 of the Volunteer Regulations, so as to permit the wearing of the Infantry sash by officers and sergeants.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The question of assimilating the manual of exercise of Volunteers to that of the Regular forces is now under consideration. The question of wearing the sash has been carefully considered, and the Secretary of State does not think it advisable to make any change.

    GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES AS VOLUNTEERS.
    COLONEL LOCKWOOD: I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that great hardship prevails amongst Volunteers who are working in Government factories owing to the fact that these men cannot attend annual camp drill without losing their pay; and whether, with a view to the further efficiency of the corps, he can hold out any prospects which are more likely to induce the men to put in more regular attendance at drills and camp.
    MR. WYNDHAM: This question has been considered, and it has been found impossible to permit absence without forfeiture of pay or equivalent overtime, but, with these reservations, every effort is made to facilitate attendance at drills and camps.

    GIBRALTAR BARRACKS.
    MR. STEVENSON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether the attention of the Commander-in-Chief has been drawn to the urgent necessity of remedying the sanitary conditions of the barracks and huts occupied by the troops stationed at Gibraltar; whether he is aware that in consequence of the grants of leases to private persons of Crown lands in the city of Gibraltar there is a dearth of house accommodation at reasonable rents for officers and their families stationed there, and that the military medical officers have expressed an opinion that the congested condition and overcrowded state of the quarter occupied by the civil population is dangerous to the health of the troops; and whether the Secretary of State, having regard to the public interest, will take steps in conjunction with the Colonial Office to prevent further encroachments by building speculators and syndicates upon the few remaining sites available for the erection of defence works, naval and military storehouses,

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    quarters for officers and dockyard officials, and recreation grounds for the troops.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The barracks at Gibraltar, though leaving much to desire, are not now insanitary. In the past five years some £26,000 has been spent on improving their sanitation. There is a scarcity of houses available for officers' quarters, and there is some overcrowding which is bad for the health of all the inhabitants, including the troops. All these points have been considered by the Committee on the condition of Gibraltar, and it has been decided that in future no Crown lands which may be required for any of the purposes stated in the question will be let on building leases.

    ARMY ENLISTMENTS.
    MAJOR RASCH: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War, whether his attention has been called to the case of Edward knight, charged on 28th June at Worthing with an assault on a girl; that the evidence being insufficient to convict, the accused was discharged, but the Chairman stated that his character was bad, and that if the charge had been proved he would have been severely punished, and that the best thing he could do was to enlist in the Army; and, whether, in view of the necessity of attracting respectable young men to the ranks, the attention of the Lord Chancellor will be directed to this obiter dictum of the Chairman.
    MR. WYNDHAM: Any remark such as that which the Chairman of the Worthing Bench is reported to have made when discharging Edward Knight, is, in the opinion of the Secretary of State, most reprehensible and injurious to the Army. It cannot be too clearly understood that the Army is not a penitentiary for bad characters, and the Secretary of State will consider what steps can be taken to induce magistrates to refrain from suggestions of so mischievous a nature.

    RAILWAY COMPANIES AND THE VOLUNTEERS.
    SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War if the War Office has now succeeded in arranging with the several companies to convey Volunteer corps proceeding to camps of instruction upon Saturdays as heretofore, in order
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    that full advantage may be taken of their holiday for the national defence.
    MR. WYNDHAM: I am glad to be able to inform my hon. and gallant friend that satisfactory arrangements have been made with all the railway companies concerned for the conveyance of Volunteers to camps on Saturday the 5th August next. I hope that this arrangement will be continued in future years.

    REGIMENTAL FACINGS.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether any regiments have yet applied for permission to resume their historical facings; and, if so, whether they have received the desired permission, and under what conditions.
    Mr. WYNDHAM: Three regiments only have applied for restoration of their old facings, the Northumberland Fusiliers, the Yorkshire Regiment, and the Seaforth Highlanders. In each case the application has been granted. As I stated to the House on the 2nd of March, this alteration will apply to the tunic only.

    ARMY RECRUITING IN THE HIGHLANDS.
    MR. HEDDERWICK: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War if he will state the number of recruits for the Army obtained this year in the Highlands of Scotland, and the average number recruited there during the preceding five years.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The recruits obtained in the Highlands of Scotland during the first six months of the present year have been 566. The average number recruited yearly during the last five years has been 1,035.

    WAR OFFICE REORGANISATION.
    MR. YOXALL: I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is able to give an assurance that the Committee on War Office Reorganisation, of which he is chairman, will consider the advisability of recommending that the claims of officers wounded in action and rendered unfit for military service, but not incapacitated from performing secretarial and administrative duties at the War Office, shall be favourably considered for appointment to the clerical staff in the Adjutant General's Department, Quartermaster General's

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    Department, and Ordnance Department on vacancies occurring in those departments.
    MR. WYNDHAM: Officers who have been wounded in action, and whom it is possible to retain on the active list, have from time to time been employed at headquarters upon such duties as they are competent to perform, but the Secretary of State is unable to give an undertaking that such officers will be employed in large numbers at the War Office.

    SPECIAL SERVICE OFFICERS FOR SOUTH AFRICA.
    MR. LABOUCHERE: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether the paragraph in The Times of 5th July, with regard to military preparations for South Africa, and the despatch of special service officers, was communicated to other newspapers as well as to The Times, and if so to which; and whether the officers despatched to organise residents and local forces will act independently of the Ministers of any self-governing Colonies in which the said residents and local forces may be.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The answer to the first question is in the negative. The officers selected for special service in South Africa will report themselves to, and act under the orders of, the general officer commanding Her Majesty's forces in that country. Their position in relation to the civil authorities of the colonies concerned will not differ from that of other officers already serving in the same command.
    MR. DILLON: Can the hon. Gentleman state on what principle the information was given to The Times newspaper and not to other papers?
    MR. WYNDHAM: I have no idea. I suppose they asked for it.
    MR. DILLON: I do not think that is a sufficient answer. I do not think the hon. Gentleman has answered my question.
    MR. SPEAKER: Order, order.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: It is the Pigott relationship.

    EXPANDING BULLETS.
    MR. DAVITT: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for
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    War whether the Mark IV. missile is affected by temperature in its initial action, and is liable to develop an abnormal pressure and to detonation within the barrel, instead of exploding; and, if so, whether he will consider the propriety of not supplying this ammunition for Volunteer rifle competitions in hot weather. I beg also to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether the Mark IV. missile had to be replaced by another bullet at the Bisley shooting on Tuesday owing to the danger which was involved in the use of this newly adopted service cartridge by the Volunteer marksmen; and whether he can see his way to place samples of the missile in question in the Tea Room for the inspection of Members of this House. I beg further to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether he will institute an inquiry into the alleged bad behaviour of the Mark IV. missile at the Bisley rifle ranges, and particularly into the statements that such a cartridge would be most dangerous for those using it in tropical regions; and whether the War Department will reconsider its action in supplying this bullet to the troops now serving in South Africa.
    MR. WYNDHAM: Perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to answer his three questions at the same time. The Mark IV. ammunition was used by several battalions of British troops at Omdurman, and was reported on favourably. There is, therefore, no reason to believe that the bullet is affected by temperature in its initial action, or that the cordite charge is liable to detonate. A report has been called for on the accidents which occurred at Bisley, and in the meantime other ammunition has been supplied to the Volunteers. This bullet has been proved by the firing of many thousands of rounds at Woolwich, and will continue to be issued unless the present inquiry should reveal some unsuspected defect. I shall be happy to place some of these bullets in the Tea Room.
    MR. DILLON: Is it a fact, as stated in The Times, that the bullet which is intended to expand only on striking has shown an inconvenient tendency to expand before leaving the rifle?
    MR. WYNDHAM: The hon. Member had better wait for the report of the inquiry.

    GUNS FOR SOUTH AFRICA.
    MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether thirty machine gun carriages were despatched yesterday for shipment at Southampton for South Africa; and whether Mark IV. bullets, which expand on impact, are to be used with these machine guns.
    MR. WYNDHAM: No machine gun carriages were sent to South Africa yesterday. If any machine guns should be sent to South Africa, Mark IV. ammunition would be sent with them.

    TROOPS FOR SOUTH AFRICA.
    MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether another battery of Royal Field Artillery has been selected for service in the Cape; and whether this is the fifth battery now under orders for the Cape.
    MR. WYNDHAM: Three batteries are under orders to proceed to South Africa, viz., 18th, 62nd, and 75th.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: Arising out of that answer, may I ask whether the hon. Gentleman purposes to answer all questions with regard to the movement of troops, in view of the fact that such questions may possibly be asked in the interests of the enemies of the country?
    (No answer was given.)

    COOPER'S HILL ENGINEERS.
    MR. KIMBER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he has arrived at any conclusion upon the case of the senior Cooper's Hill Engineers, which some few months ago he stated was under consideration by the Government; and whether their complaint that their careers had been ruined by the terms of their engagement being broken, and that they are reduced towards the close of their service into a position of great anxiety and distress, can in any way be met and alleviated; and whether he will lay upon the Table, and cause to be circulated, the Government of India's despatch, No. 15, Public Works, dated 28th January, 1890, containing that Government's views upon the whole question; also copy of a Minute by Sir George Chesney written in January, 1890 (referred to in that despatch), and its enclosures.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Lord G. HAMILTON,): I stated on the 15th of June in this House that a despatch conveying my decision on this subject was then on its way to India. Since then it has, no doubt, been received and acted upon in the manner which I described. A motion for the publication of the correspondence referred to in the question was put down in 1895, but my predecessor declined to agree to it, and I see no reason for departing from that decision.

    BALKAN REFORMS.
    MR. STEVENSON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps have been taken by Her Majesty's Government to urge upon the Signatory Powers to the Treaty of Berlin the necessity for executing the reforms in the Balkan provinces of the Ottoman Empire, in accordance with Article 23 of that Treaty; and whether, in view of the reports recently received from Macedonia, the Secretary of State will consider the desirability of inviting the Ambassadors of the Great Powers at Constantinople to re-examine the proposals made by the noble Lord now Member for Cricklade and the other European Commissioners in their memorandum of the 23rd of August 1880, on the introduction of administrative reforms into European Turkey.
    THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. BRODRICK,): Her Majesty's Ambassador at Constantinople has joined the representatives of other Powers on several occasions in urging the introduction of reforms in the Balkan provinces, but it is not considered that such action as is suggested would in present circumstances be opportune.

    TRADE IN NIGERIA.
    MR. J. E. ELLIS: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, what have been the figures of trade (imports and exports separately) for each of the ten years 1889 to 1898 between the United Kingdom and the territory administered by the Niger Company; whether any expense has been borne by the Imperial Exchequer in relation to that Protectorate since the grant of the charter; and in that case what has been the total sum so charged and for what purpose.
    MR. BRODRICK: I am informed by the Niger Company that no separate account of trade as between the United Kingdom and Nigeria has been kept. A certain portion of the Nigeria trade is with the Continent. No expense whatever has been borne by the Imperial Exchequer in relation to the Protectorate since the grant of the charter.

    JAPANESE LABOUR IN BRITISH COLUMBIA.
    MR. DAVITT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any remonstrance has been addressed to the Colonial Office by the Government of British Columbia, or any of its citizens, against the vetoing of the Provincial Act which prohibited the employment of cheap Japanese labour in the mines of the colony; whether the labour party of the colony has protested against this interference with the legislative privileges of the people of British Columbia, on the ground that the action of the Dominion Legislature has been influenced by the capitalists of the colony, whose interests favour the employment of cheap Asiatic labour in the mines; and whether he is aware that the labour organisations of Canada are in active sympathy with the views of similar bodies in British Columbia, and demand that some adequate safeguard shall be provided for the protection of Canadian labour throughout the whole of the Dominion against the influx of cheap labour from the East, which it is alleged this vetoing of the Act of prohibition will precipitate to the injury of the white workers of all the Canadian provinces.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN,): The answer to all three questions is in the negative. I have received no protests on the subject.

    QUEEN'S BIRTHDAY CELEBRATION IN NATAL.
    MR. J. M. MACLEAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will explain on what grounds, at the recent celebration of the Queen's Birthday in Natal, the children of natives of British Africa were forbidden by the authorities to view the festivities in company with the children of white people.
    MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I have no information on the subject.
    MR. J. M. MACLEAN: The statement has been published in the papers.

    TRANSVAAL AFFAIRS.
    SIR WILFRID LAWSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Government will lay before Parliament papers containing a full account of the Bloemfontein negotiations, and relative communications with the Governments of Cape Colony and Natal in regard to the position of affairs in the South African Republic.
    MR. DILLON: I beg at the same time to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can now see his way to lay upon the Table of the House the despatches from Sir A. Milner giving an account of the proceedings at the Bloemfontein Conference.
    MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: The papers relating to the Bloemfontein negotiations will be given. As to the communications with the Cape and Natal Governments I will consider what papers can be given—I may have to consult the Colonial Governments.
    MR. LABOUCHERE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has formed an approximative estimate of the number of British-born white subjects of Her Majesty now domiciled in the Transvaal Republic; and, if so, whether he will communicate it to the House.
    MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: No census of the Transvaal has been taken since 1890. Sir J. de Wet estimated in 1894 that of a total Uitlander population of 70,000, 63,000 were British subjects. The total number of Utilanders now in the Republic has been estimated roughly at 200,000, of which the same proportion as in Sir J. de Wet's estimate would be 159,000 British subjects.
    MR. WHARTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the law as to the education of children of English-speaking parents in the elementary schools in the Transvaal remains the same as described wit-

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    nesses before the South African Committee, i.e., that in elementary schools at Johannesburg and elsewhere education was only allowed to be given in the Dutch language, although it was admitted that there were plenty of competent English-speaking teachers available; and, whether the taxation of food and other necessaries of life continues as onerous and stringent as reported by witnesses before the Committee, and whether any change has taken place with regard to such taxation.
    MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: The law remains unaltered. Under it the Superintendent of Education may make arrangements for the education of non-Dutch speaking children on the Goldfields, and at present English is allowed to be the medium of instruction in the lowest standards, but more and more Dutch is required until Dutch becomes the only medium. The Uitlanders, being unable to avail themselves of the State-aided education, for which they have to pay, have voluntarily subscribed about £100,000 as a fund for providing education for English children on the Rand. I believe that the taxation on food and necessaries, though some alterations have been made in the customs tariff, remains substantially the same.
    DR. CLARK: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether these taxes are above or below the same taxes in Cape Colony?
    MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: If the hon. Gentleman will give notice of the question I will give him a reply.
    DR. CLARK: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is the case that under the resolution of the Volksraad in 1896 five schools have been established on the Goldfields of the South African Republic; that of the fifteen teachers ten are English and five Dutch; and that the maximum time required to earn the highest grants in these schools is five hours per week for the senior scholars.
    MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I understand that a few such schools have been established, but I am not in possession of details as to the staff and the hours. I believe that a condition attaching to the grant is that the children must pass an examination in South African history and
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    in the Dutch language. (See page 77 of C. 9345.)

    DISTRICT AGRICULTURAL ANALYSTS.
    SIR CHARLES CAMERON: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture how many appointments of district agricultural analysts under the Fertilisers and Feeding Stuffs Act, 1893, by county councils and councils of county boroughs respectively, have been approved by the Board of Agriculture in accordance with the provisions of that Act.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE (Mr. LONG,): Appointments of district agricultural analysts have been approved for all administrative counties, with but two exceptions, and in fourteen county boroughs.

    TITHE RENT CHARGE (RATES) BILL
    MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture if he will specify respectively the rates referred to in Clause 4 of the Tithe Rent-charge (Rates) Bill as rates which the owner of tithe rent-charge is liable as compared with the occupier of buildings to be assessed to or to pay on the proportion of one-half and of less than one-half; and if he will name the enactments by which the rate is in each case imposed in the proportion mentioned.
    MR. LONG: The object of the exception in Clause 4 of the Bill is to exclude from relief those rates in respect of which owners of tithe rent-charge have already been placed by Statute in as good or better position than that in which they will be placed under the Bill. The most important rates which fall within this category are the general district rate in urban districts, and the special expenses rate in rural districts which are levied in conformity with Sections 211 and 230 of the Public Health Act, 1875, and rates levied for the expenses arising under the Lighting and Washing Act, 1833, in conformity with Section 33 of that Act, as extended by the Tithe Rating Act, 1851.
    MR. J. H. ROBERTS: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he will state the aggregate amount of the deduc-

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    tions which will be made under the Tithe Rent-charge (Rates) Bill from the sums now payable to the local authorities in Wales and Monmouthshire.
    MR. LONG: The aggregate amount of the shares of the counties and county boroughs in Wales and Monmouthshire in a sum of £87,000 distributed in the proportion of what are known as the "discontinued grants" would be £3,982.
    MR. LLOYD MORGAN: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he will state the amount which will be deducted from the sum payable to the County of Carmarthen out of the Local Taxation grant under the Tithe Rent-charge (Rates) Bill.
    MR. LONG: The share of the County of Carmarthen in a sum of £87,000 distributed in the proportion of what are known as the "discontinued grants" would amount to £277.
    MR. D. A. THOMAS: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture if he will consent to the motion for a Return relating to the amounts to be deducted in respect of the Tithe Rent-charge (Rates) Bill from the sums receivable by local authorities on account of the Estate Duty Grant, standing on to-day's Paper.
    MR. LONG: It would not be practicable to give the Return asked for without a detailed investigation of the circumstances as they at present exist in each parish in which tithe rent-charge is attached to a benefice, and even therefore if the value of such a Return were equivalent to the cost and labour of its preparation, which we do not think would be the case, it could not be made available until long after the Bill will, as we hope, have passed into law.

    HANWELL BARRACK SCHOOL.
    MR. HAZELL: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been drawn to a proposal made by the managers of the Central London School District to spend about £250 in establishing a printing office at the large barrack schools at Hanwell; and whether he will undertake to refuse to sanction such expenditure in accordance with his stated intention of not adding to the existing
    696
    Poor Law children's institutions, in compliance with the recommendations of the Poor Law Schools Committee.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. CHAPLIN,): I have not received any proposal from the managers of the Central London School District on the subject referred to in the question. I understand that a proposal made by one of the managers to establish a printing press was referred to a committee, but that nothing more has been done in the matter.

    STEEPLE MORDEN RECREATION GROUND.
    SIR WALTER FOSTER: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that the County Council of Cambridgeshire made an order on 11th May for acquiring four acres of land at Steeple Morden for a public recreation ground; and whether, as the confirmation of the order has remained unopposed, the Local Government Board will issue at an early date an Order confirming the order of the County Council.
    MR. CHAPLIN: The formal Order is in preparation and will very shortly be issued.

    COLOURING OF FOODSTUFFS.
    MR. HEDDERWICK: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he has recently promised or agreed to the appointment of a Committee to inquire into and report upon the colouring of margarine and the addition of preservatives to butter and milk.
    MR. CHAPLIN: I have appointed a Committee to inquire into the use of preservatives and colouring matters in the preservation and colouring of food generally. My right hon. friend the Member for Wigtownshire has consented to act as Chairman, and the other members of the Committee will be Professor Thorpe, of the Government Laboratory, Dr. Bulstrode, one of the Medical Inspectors of the Local Government Board, and Dr. Tunnicliffe, of the Physiological Laboratory, St. Bartholomew's Hospital.
    MR. HEDDERWICK: Are we to understand that the Government intend to drop the Sale of Food and Drugs Bill this session?
    MR. CHAPLIN: Nothing of the kind.

    FACTORY FUMES AT WESTMINSTER.
    MR. BARTLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the increasing quantity of smoke and fumes that are emitted from the pottery and drain-pipe works on the river nearly opposite this House; whether he is aware that on Tuesday Lambeth Bridge was invisible in the afternoon from this cause, and that the Committee Rooms, the Terrace, and the dining-rooms were filled for hours with most unpleasant fumes; and whether he can take steps to require the owners of these works to consume their own smoke and not contaminate the neighbourhood with these fumes.
    MR. CHAPLIN: The Local Government Board have no control over the owners of the works referred to in the question, but I have communicated with the Clerk to the Lambeth Vestry, in which parish the works are situated. I am informed that the Vestry have made and are still making daily observations with respect to the emission of smoke from the works of manufacturing firms in the parish, and particularly from the two leading pottery and drain-pipe works on the Albert Embankment, three inspectors having been specially told off for this purpose. Proceedings have already been taken in several cases, and convictions obtained in respect of the emission of black smoke. Several notices have been served upon the pottery and drain-pipe firms in question, awl summonses will be issued whenever any nuisance under the Act can be substantiated. It is understood that large sums have been expended by the two pottery firms in altering their furnaces and appliances, so as to minimise the smoke and fumes arising in the course of their manufacturing processes, and they have expressed their willingness to make any further alterations of a practical nature if any such can be suggested.

    LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD—POSITION OF SIR HUGH OWEN.
    MR. GODDARD: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether the late permanent Secretary of that Board, who retired from the office on the 31st December last with a large pension, still retains the appoint-
    698
    ment of Receiver of the Metropolitan Common Poor Fund at a salary of £500 a year; and whether it is the intention of the Government that Sir Hugh Owen should continue to occupy the latter post for an indefinite period.
    MR. CHAPLIN: The salary of the office in question is £400—not £500 a year. It is quite distinct from that of Secretary to the Local Government Board, and the salary is not paid out of Imperial funds. The office is still held by Sir Hugh Owen, and I see no reason whatever why he should not continue to retain it.

    SCHOOL ATTENDANCE—CHILDREN'S COUNTRY TRIPS.
    MR. HAZELL: I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education whether his attention has been called to the work of the Country Holidays' Fund, the Children's Fresh Air Mission, and similar organisations for sending children from London to country cottages for two or three weeks during the summer; whether he is aware that the number of children thus sent away annually is approximately 55,000, and is increasing, and that it is admitted on all hands that the benefit to the children, both physically and educationally, is very great; is he aware that the bulk of the children are sent away during the school holidays in order not to interfere with their school attendance, and that consequently there is constantly increasing difficulty in placing so many children with country cottagers during this short period; and whether, having regard to the immense advantages the children obtain, he will consider the possibility of this fortnight's visit being reckoned as school attendance on the ground of its educational value, or will in some other way propose a remedy for this difficulty.
    THE VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE COMMITTEE OF COUNCIL ON EDUCATION (Sir J. GORST,): The answer to paragraphs 1, 2, and 3 is in the affirmative. In reply to paragraph 4, it would be impracticable, in the opinion of the Committee of Council, to reckon these holiday visits as school attendance. But there is nothing to prevent the London School Board and the Voluntary school managers from making such arrangement that all the

    699
    elementary schools in London will not have their holidays at the same time.

    RAILWAY COMPANIES' RUNNING POWERS.
    MR. TOMLINSON: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade when the Mansion House Association on Railway and Canal Traffic may expect to receive a reply to their letter to the Board of Trade with reference to the neglect of the railway companies to supply on their sectional maps information as to their running powers. I may add that the date of the letter was 11th May.
    MR. LONG (for Mr. RITCHIE): The Board of Trade have not lost sight of this matter, and as recently as the 3rd of July the Department received a letter from the Clearing House intimating that the subject was to be brought before a meeting of general managers on the 25th instant, and that after that date a further communication would be addressed to the Board.

    INHABITED HOUSE DUTY.
    MR. JEFFREYS: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether lodges in the country which are let to labourers are liable to inhabited House duty.
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir M. HICKS-BEACH,): The question is one of law, which can be authoritatively decided only by the courts; but the opinion of the Board of Inland Revenue is that a lodge belonging to and occupied with a dwelling-house is chargeable with Inhabited House Duty under the Act 48 Geo. III., Cap. 55, Schedule B., Rule 2.

    CAPITAL PUNISHMENT—CASE OF MARY ANSELL.
    MR. C. H. WILSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has given his sanction to the execution of Mary Ansell on the 19th July; and will he state how many men and how many women have been executed in the years 1896, 1897, 1898; and in how many instances have memorials for mercy been refused.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir M. WHITE RIDLEY,): As to the first paragraph, I must decline to answer any question in the House as
    700
    to the advice which it will be my duty to tender to Her Majesty. Thirty-five men and one woman were executed in the period referred to. In the great majority of these cases applications in some form for mercy were made.

    SCOTTISH REFORMATORIES AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS.
    SIR CHARLES CAMERON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will consent to introduce the Bill which has been prepared for the transference of the control of Scottish reformatories and industrial schools to the Secretary for Scotland, on the distinct understanding that it shall not be proceeded with this session unless it can go through unopposed.
    SIR M. WHITE RIDLEY: I am afraid that I cannot do this. There are several points of detail to be settled before the matter can be ready to be laid before Parliament.

    TREATMENT OF YOUNG PRISONERS.
    MR. J. G. TALBOT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what provision is intended to be made for young persons sentenced to detention in reformatory schools between their conviction and their reception into such schools, now that it will be no longer lawful to detain them in prison; and whether he proposes to send any circular to the various Courts of Quarter and Petty Sessions on the subject.
    SIR M. WHITE RIDLEY: The Reformatory Schools Amendment Act, to which, I suppose, my right hon. friend refers, provides merely that a juvenile offender shall not be sentenced to imprisonment in addition to being committed to a reformatory. There is nothing in this to interfere with the provisions of Section 2 of the Act of 1893, under which the offender can be sent for a short time to a prison, or any other place, until a fit school willing to receive him is found. I am about to issue a circular respecting the new Act.

    BURIAL GROUNDS BILL.
    MR. MORRELL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the Government intend to bring in a Bill during

    701
    the present session to give effect to the recommendations of the Select Committee on Burial Grounds, as contemplated by them on 9th February.
    SIR M. WHITE RIDLEY: No, Sir; I am afraid it will not be possible this session to bring in a Burials Bill.

    BAIL REGULATIONS.
    MR. LLOYD MORGAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the observations of Mr. Justice Mathew at the Kent Assizes, in the case of the Queen against Ryle, in which the prisoner had been six months in prison awaiting her trial owing to the refusal of the committing magistrate to admit her to bail, as he thought he had no power to do so; and whether he will take the necessary steps to inform magistrates as to the powers they possess under recent legislation of admitting prisoners to bail.
    SIR M. WHITE RIDLEY: I have seen a newspaper report of the observations of the learned judge. I have no reason to suppose that magistrates generally are unaware of their powers with regard to bail, and no evidence to this effect has reached me with the exception of this one case.

    STREET REGULATIONS—BARREL ORGANS.
    MR. SOAMES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been drawn to the custom of attaching cradles with infants in them to barrel organs and piano organs in the streets of London; whether some time back instructions were given to the police to put a stop to this practice; and whether he will take steps to have those instructions carried out.
    SIR M. WHITE RIDLEY: My attention has not been recently drawn to this matter, but I will look into it.

    HORSE AND CATTLE BREEDING IN SCOTTISH CONGESTED DISTRICTS.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate, what encouragement has been given by the Congested Districts Board for Scotland to the breeding of horses and cattle in the congested area.
    THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY,): I am in-
    702
    formed by the Congested Districts Board that they have made grants in aid of premiums for good stallions, and have supplied bulls in approved cases.

    CONGESTED DISTRICTS IN SCOTLAND.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate, having regard to the fact that under Section 5 of the Congested Districts (Scotland) Act, the board may accept gifts of property for any of the purposes provided by the Act, will he state whether any Highland landlords have yet made gifts of land to the board.
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: The answer is in the negative.

    PEDDIESTON PUBLIC SCHOOL.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the material required for conducting water to the Peddieston Public School and the farm towns of Ardivall and Muirton (Black Isle), Ross-shire, has yet been delivered; and can he state when the pipes will be laid and the work completed.
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: I am unable to add anything to the answer I gave on the 27th of last month to the hon. Member.

    GLASGOW POLICE AND PAUPER PATIENTS.
    SIR CHARLES CAMERON: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the attention of the Scottish Local Government Board has been called to the change of practice recently introduced in Glasgow in dealing with cases of debility and injury brought to the police offices and subsequently removed to the parochial hospital, whereby pauper patients are removed to that hospital without any certificate from the parochial medical officer of their fitness for removal; whether the criminal authorities have sanctioned the inspection of the private police books by the parochial officers; whether the removal of a moribund person on the data contained in these books, and without certificate from the parochial medical officer, would be held to satisfy the requirements of the Poor Law Act; and on whom, in case of mishap occurring in connection with a removal so conducted, would legal responsibility rest.
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: The answer to the first paragraph of the hon. Member's question is in the negative.

    703
    From inquiries made by myself through other channels, I find that some changes have been recently made in Glasgow in connection with removal. In the meantime, I have communicated with the Local Government Board in order that inquiries may be made; and if the hon. Member will repeat his question after an adequate interval, I shall be happy to reply on the subject.

    SCOTTISH CROFTERS' HOLDINGS.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the large farm, referred to in paragraph 6, page 10, of the Report of the Congested Districts Board for Scotland has yet been secured for the purpose of creating holdings for crofters and cottars.
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: I am informed by the Congested Districts Board that as the farm referred to is not out of lease until 1902 they have not yet secured it.

    VACCINATION PROSECUTIONS IN SCOTLAND.
    MR. COLVILLE: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether he is aware that the Parish Council of Bothwell have recently prosecuted two gentlemen for the non-vaccination of their children; and whether the Government intend to amend the Law so as to afford the same relief for the conscientious objector in Scotland which has just been provided by statute for similar objectors to vaccination in England.
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: The fact stated in the first paragraph of the hon. Member's question is, I am informed by the Local Government Board, correct. The answer to the second paragraph is in the negative.

    SCOTTISH COUNTY AUTHORITIES AND CONSULTING ENGINEERS.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate, in view of the statement on page 6 of the Report of the Congested Districts Board for Scotland that difficulties have arisen owing to the divided nature of the responsibilities of the County Local Authorities and the consulting engineer, will he state whether those difficulties have been overcome; and, if so, in what way.
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: The statement to which the hon. Member
    704
    refers was not made in the report, but in a note by the Under Secretary for Scotland, drawn up for the information of the Congested Districts Board. It applied to cases of works subsidised out of the Vote for West Highland and Island Works, but as that Vote ceased on the 31st March, 1898, there seems no object now in reopening these discussions. They were all arranged excepting the case of the Port Ness Harbour, about which the hon. Member was lately informed.

    SPINNING AND WEAVING IN THE HIGHLANDS.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate if he will state what efforts have been made to encourage spinning and weaving in the congested area of the Highlands of Scotland since the Congested Districts Board published their Report?
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: I am informed by the Congested Districts Board that the instructor referred to in the Report has been for some time at work under the local committee.

    THE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES.
    MR. LABOUCHERE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether any steps have been taken with a view to enforce the liability of the guarantors of Mr. Bussy in regard to the non-delivery of the issues of The Parliamentary Debates to those who have prepaid for their delivery during the present session.
    THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. HANBURY,): I am advised that the guarantors are not liable in this case. Their liability applied where the Government itself suffered by the action of the contractor, or where he broke any portion of the contract. The arrangements for repayment were no part of the contract.
    MR. ERNEST SPENCER: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, having regard to the fact that Members can now by means of a single order receive The Parliamentary Debates from 24th April to the present date, he will give instructions for the privilege, viz., by means of a single order, to be extended to the commencement of the session, as Members have in many cases either used or mislaid the necessary

    705
    Pink Papers, they having been issued to them months ago.
    MR. HANBURY: Apart from the fact that the proposal of my hon. friend goes beyond the arrangement agreed upon, I find that there are practically no sets of back numbers available beyond those already purchased by the Stationery Office to secure copies for subscribers who had paid in advance.

    THE LICENSING COMMISSION'S REPORT.
    SIR JOHN LENG: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury when the Report of the Royal Commission on Licensing, from which copious extracts have already appeared in the Press, will be in the hands of Members.
    MR. HANBURY: It will be ready for delivery on Tuesday next.

    FAIR RENTS IN COUNTY TYRONE.
    MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has observed that in the case of Patrick MacNeill, Pink Schedule dated 16th February, 1899, 15 per cent. is added to the rent for proximity to Moy, County Tyrone; and in the case of A. M'Kenzie, Pink Schedule dated 19th July, 1898, no percentage is added for proximity to Moy, although both farms are equi-distant from the town of Moy, which has less than 1,000 inhabitants; and whether he can explain this difference of procedure in fixing fair rents.
    THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. G. W. BALFOUR,): The question refers to matters which came before the Sub-Commissioners judicially, and the Land Commissioners decline to require the Sub-Commissioners to explain the grounds of their judicial decisions. The parties, if they feel aggrieved, have the right to require the cases to be reheard on appeal before the Land Commissioners, and in one of the two cases referred to I understand that notice of rehearing has been served by both landlord and tenant.

    RENT APPEALS IN WATERFORD UNION.
    MR. POWER: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland when it is proposed to hold meetings of the Sub-Land Com-
    706
    missioners and of the Chief Commission in Waterford for hearing of cases in the Waterford Union.
    MR. G. W. BALFOUR: No sittings of either the Chief or Sub-Commission for the disposal of cases from the district mentioned have, as yet, been arranged for. Sittings will be fixed at as early a date as possible, having due regard to the claims of other districts. There are only twenty-six cases from this district in which appeals are pending, and only eighty cases awaiting hearing before the Sub-Commission.

    BELFAST WHARVES.
    MR. MACALEESE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received further information regarding the unsafe and dangerous condition of the Belfast wharves; and if he can now see his way to address a remonstrance to the Harbour Commissioners on the subject.
    MR. G. W. BALFOUR: Further information has been furnished to me by the hon. Member relative to deaths from drowning in the docks at Belfast, which have occurred since I replied to questions previously put to me on the same subject last year. With regard to the second paragraph, the Government have already been in communication with the Harbour Commissioners of Belfast as to the alleged unprotected state of the docks, and have been informed by the Commissioners that they have, in all places, erected protection railings a walls where they considered such could be done without materially obstructing the trade and traffic of the port. The docks and quays in the harbour have, I am assured, been constructed by the Commissioners in strict accordance with Parliamentary authority, and if that is so, they are not liable, in the absence of negligent user, for any accidents that may occur.

    SOUTH KILKENNY LAND SUB-COMMISSION.
    MR. MORRIS: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that no Land Sub-Commission sat at Waterford for the South Kilkenny district since October, 1898: and when will a Sub-Commission sit at Waterford.
    MR. G. W. BALFOUR: The fact is as stated in the first paragraph. A sitting of the Sub-Commission at Waterford will be arranged at as early a date as possible, having due regard to the claims of other districts. There are only fifty two cases awaiting hearing from this district at present.

    URLINGFORD UNION DISPENSARY DISTRICTS.
    MR. M'DERMOTT: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, whether his attention has been called to the unanimous resolution of the Urlingford (county Kilkenny) Board of Guardians, to the effect that no rearrangement of the dispensary districts of the union involving the abolition of any one of them could be made that would not inflict great hardships on the sick poor in many districts of the union; and, whether he will have personal investigation made into the matter, with a view to the withdrawal of the recent sealed order and the replacing of the dispensary districts in their former positions.
    MR. G. W. BALFOUR: My attention has been drawn to the resolution referred to in the first paragraph. I have given this matter my own personal consideration, but see no sufficient reason to alter the decision which has already been arrived at after careful investigation by the Medical Inspector of the Local Government Board in respect to the re-arrangement of the dispensary districts. The Board do not consider that the re-arrangement of these districts will inflict any serious hardship on the sick poor; they believe, on the contrary, that the new arrangements will conduce to a better attendance on them.

    IRISH OFFICIAL ASSIGNEES.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether his attention has been called to Rule 250 of the proposed Rules of the Supreme Court (Ireland) 1899, now lying upon the Table of the House, referring to the qualification of official assignees for acting as liquidators in the winding-up of public companies; whether he is aware that a similar arrangement to that now proposed was brought forward in 1893, and was abandoned in deference to the strong protests of the Chambers of Commerce of Dublin, Belfast, and Cork, and
    708
    other representatives of Irish traders; and whether, in view of the fact that the mercantile community in Ireland is still strongly opposed to the contemplated change, he will refuse to sanction the rule in question.
    THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. ATKINSON,): The rules referred to in the first paragraph of the question have not been laid on the Table of the House, nor is it necessary that they should be so laid, at present. They are now draft rules, and were so published in the Dublin Gazette, with a notice under the Rules Publication Act, stating where copies could be obtained, and that representations and suggestions made in writing by any public body interested would be taken into consideration before the rules would be finally settled. I am not aware of the circumstances under which the Bill of 1893 was not proceeded with, but assume, from the terms of the question, it was because of some opposition. I cannot admit that the mercantile community in Ireland is opposed to the rule as now drafted by the rule recommending authority, which includes all the Judges of the High Court in Ireland; but any public body which is now opposed to them can send in objections, which will be duly considered before the final settlement of the rules. I have not the power suggested in the last paragraph of the question, and I have to remind my hon. friend that the Rules in their final shape must be laid before Parliament, and may on Address be annulled.

    PRIVATE LEGISLATION PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) BILL.
    MR. J. E. ELLIS: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he will fix the Third Reading of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Bill after it has been reprinted and at such a time as will afford opportunity for discussion on the Bill.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): I understand that there are not many gentlemen who desire to take part in the discussion on the Third Reading of the Bill, but I will endeavour to bring it on at such a time as he suggests.

    SALE OF FOOD AND DRUGS BILL.
    MR. PROVAND: I beg to ask the First Lord of the

    709
    Treasury, whether, having regard to the highly contentious character of the Sale of Food and Drugs Bill, and the strong objections expressed to several of its clauses by chambers of commerce and by large numbers of manufacturers and traders, he will consent to postpone the Bill until next session.
    The following questions also appeared on the Paper:—
    Mr. LAMBERT: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he can state when the Sale of Food and Drugs Bill will be taken.
    Sir JOHN LENG: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the Sale of Food and Drugs Bill will be further proceeded with this session; and, if so, when.
    Dr. FARQUHARSON.—To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the Government have decided not to proceed further with the Sale of Food and Drugs Bill, but intend to refer it for further examination and inquiry to a Departmental Committee.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: There are a good many questions on the Paper in reference to this Bill, and I have to say that I propose to take the Report stage on Monday next. I do not wholly agree with the statement of fact made in the last part of the question of the hon. Member for the Blackfriars Division.

    THE MONEY-LENDING BILL.
    MR. YERBURGH: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he has received a memorial signed by a large number of Members on both sides of the House asking the Government, in view of the great benefit which the Money-Lending Bill would confer on the poorer industrial classes of the community, to pass the said Bill this session; and whether he can see his way to meeting the wishes of the memorialists.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I have received the memorial to which my hon. friend refers, but I cannot hold out any very sanguine hopes as to the prospect of carrying the Bill this session. Perhaps my hon. friend will wait for a final answer until Monday.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he can now make a statement as to the further
legislative business of the session?
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I hope to make the statement next Monday.

LEA BRIDGE DISTRICT GAS BILL [Lords].
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 15) (RE-COMMITTED) BILL.
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed [No. 277].
Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed [Bill 268].

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to—
BIRMINGHAM CORPORATION BILL.
  MIDLAND AND SOUTH WESTERN JUNCTION RAILWAY BILL.

    LINCOLN AND EAST COAST RAILWAY AND DOCK BILL.
    WOKING WATER AND GAS BILL.
    LOWESTOFT PROMENADE PIER BILL.
    With Amendments.
    That they have passed a Bill, entitled "An Act to amend the Law relating to Youthful Offenders and for other purposes connected therewith." [Youthful Offenders Bill [Lords].

NEW MEMBER SWORN.
THOMAS WRIGHTSON, Esq., for St. Pancras (East Division).

SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE (EXEMPTION FROM THE STANDING ORDER).
Motion made, and Question put, "That the proceedings on the Tithe Rent-charge (Rates) Bill, if under discussion at Twelve o'clock this night, be not interrupted under the Standing Order Sittings of the House."—(Mr. Balfour.)
The House divided:—Ayes, 247; Noes, 148. (Division List, No. 249.)

AYES.

Aird, John

Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Hart

Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

Allsopp, Hon. George

Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Elliot, Hon. A. R. Douglas

Long, Col. C. W. (Eversham)

Arnold, Alfred

Fardell, Sir T. George

Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverpool)

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Fellowes, Hon. Ailywn Edw.

Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J. (Manc'r

Lorne, Marquess of

Bagot, Capt. J. FitzRoy

Finch, George H.

Lowe, Francis William

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Bailey, Jas. E. B. (Inverness)

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Lubbock, Right Hon. Sir J.

Baird, John George Alexander

Fisher, William Hayes

Lucas-Shadwell, William

Balcarres, Lord

Fison, Frederick William

Macartney, W. G. Ellison

Baldwin, Alfred

Fitz Gerald, Sir R. Penrose-

Macdona, John Cumming

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

Fitz Wygram, General Sir F.

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W.(Leeds)

Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)

Maclean, James Mackenzie

Banbury, Frederek George

Galloway, William Johnson

M'Iver, Sir L. (Edinburgh,W.)

Barnes, Frederic Gorell

Gedge, Sydney

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts

Gibbons, J. Lloyd

Middlemore, J. Throgmorton

Barry, Sir F. T.(Windsor)

Giles, Charles Tyrrell

Milbank, Sir Powlett C. J.

Bartley, George C. T.

Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Barton, Dunbar Plunket

Goldsworthy, Major-General

Milner, Sir Frederick George

Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin

Gordon, Hon. John Edward

Milton, Viscount

Beach, Rt Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol)

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

Milward, Colonel Victor

Beach, W. W. B. (Hants.)

Goschen, Rt Hn G. J (St George's

Monk, Charles James

Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe

Goschen, George J. (Sussex)

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Beresford, Lord Charles

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

Bill, Charles

Graham, Henry Robert

More, Robt. J. Shropshire)

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'ry

Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm' thsh.)

Bond, Edward

Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.

Morrell, George Herbert

Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme

Greville, Hon Ronald

Morrison, Walter

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Gull, Sir Cameron

Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

Boulnois, Edmund

Gunter, Colonel

Muntz, Philip A.

Bowles, T. G. (King's Lynn)

Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

Brassey, Albert

Halsey, Thomas Frederick

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Brookfield, A. Montagu

Hanbury, Rt. Hon Robert Wm.

Myers, William Henry

Brown, Alexander H.

Hanson, Sir Reginald

Newark, Viscount

Bullard, Sir Harry

Hardy, Laurence

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Heaton, John Henniker

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Campbell, Rt Hn J. A. (Glasgow)

Helder, Augustus

Pender, Sir James

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter

Penn, John

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

Hickman, Sir Alfred

Percy, Earl

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Hill, Rt. Hn. A. Staveley (Staffs.

Pilkington, R. (Lancs. Newton)

Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)

Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampst'd)

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.

Hobhouse, Henry

Priestley, Sir W. Overend (Edin

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc.

Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow)

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Purvis, Robert

Chelsea, Viscount

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Rankin, Sir James

Clarke, Sir Edw. (Plymouth)

Howard, Joseph

Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.

Howell, William Tudor

Rentoul, James Alexander

Coddington, Sir William

Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir M. W.

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies

Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. T.

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Jebb, Richard Claverhouse

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Colston, Chas. E. H. Athole

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Rothschild, Hon. Lionel W.

Cornwallis, Fiennes S. W.

Jenkins, Sir John Jones

Round, James

Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.

Jolliffe, Hon. H. George

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge

Kemp, George

Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

Cripps, Charles Alfred

Kenyon, James

Samuel, Harry S (Limehouse)

Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)

Kimber, Henry

Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. E. J.

Cruddas, William Donaldson

King, Sir Henry Seymour

Scobel, Sir Andrew Richard

Curzon, Viscount

Lafone, Alfred

Seely, Charles Hilton

Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh

Laurie, Lieut.-General

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

Sidebottom, T. Harrop (Stalybr

Denny, Colonel

Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Digby, John K. D. Wingfield

Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry)

Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

Lecky, Rt. Hon. W. E. H.

Skewes-Cox, Thomas

Dorington, Sir John Edward

Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

Smith, J. Parker (Lanarks.)

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Smith, Hon. W. F. D.(Strand

Doxford, William Theodore

Leighton, Stanley

Spencer, Ernest

Drucker, A.

Llewellyn, E. H. (Somerset)

Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)

Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

Llewelyn, Sir D.- (Swansea)

Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset

Stanley, Sir H. M. (Lambeth)

Valentia, Viscount

Wylie, Alexander

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Ward, Hon. Robert A. (Crewe

Wyndham, George

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent)

Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

Stock, James Henry

Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Wharton, Rt Hon. John Lloyd

Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Whitmore, Charles Algernon

Young, Commander (Berks, E.

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm

Younger, William

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Ox. Univ.

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Thorburn, Walter

Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Tollemache, Henry James

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Usborne, Thomas

Wrightson, Thomas

NOES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Haldane, Richard Burdon

O'Malley, William

Allan, William (Gateshead)

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham)

Asher, Alexander

Harwood, George

Palmer, G. Wm. (Reading)

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

Paulton, James Mellor

Barlow, John Emmott

Hazell, Walter

Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Hedderwick, Thomas Charles H.

Pickard, Benjamin

Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

Hemphill, Rt Hon. Charles H.

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Billson, Alfred

Horniman, Frederick John

Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lanc, S. W

Birrell, Augustine

Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

Power, Patrick Joseph

Blake, Edward

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Price, Robert John

Broadhurst, Henry

Jacoby, James Alfred

Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez Ed.

Richardson, J. (Durham, S.E.)

Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea

Rickett, J. Compton

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Burt, Thomas

Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt Hn Sir U

Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

Buxton, Sydney Charles

Kinloch, Sir John G. Smyth

Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees).

Caldwell, James

Kitson, Sir James

Schwann, Charles E.

Cameron, Sir Charles(Glasgow

Labouchere, Henry

Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

Cameron, Robert (Durham)

Lambert, George

Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford)

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)

Causton, Richard Knight

Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfars.)

Cawley, Frederick

Leng, Sir John

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithnessshire

Leuty, Thomas Richmond

Souttar, Robinson

Colville, John

Lewis, John Herbert

Spicer, Albert

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Lloyd-George, David

Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.

Courtney, Rt. Hn. Leonard H.

Logan, John William

Steadman, William Charles

Crombie, John William

Lough, Thomas

Stevenson, Francis S.

Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

Lyell, Sir Leonard

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Dalziel, James Henry

MacAleese, Daniel

Thomas, Alf. (Glamorgan, E.)

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

M'Donnell, Dr. M. A (Queer's C.

Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr

Davit, Michael

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Dewar, Arthur

M'Crae, George

Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)

Dillon, John

M'Ewan, William

Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.

Donelan, Captain A.

M'Kenna, Reginald

Weir, James Galloway

Doogan, P. C.

M'Laren Charles Benjamin

Whiteley, George (Stockport)

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

M'Leod, John

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Duckworth, James

Maddison, Fred.

Williams, J. Carvell (Notts.)

Dunn, Sir William

Maden, John Henry

Wills, Sir William Henry

Ellis, John Edward

Mellor, Rt. Hn. J. W. (Yorks.)

Wilson, Hy. J. (York, W.R.)

Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan

Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Evershed, Sydney

Molloy, Bernard Charles

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Farquharson, Dr. Robert

Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen)

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Fenwick, Charles

Morgan, W. P. (Merthyr)

Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf.

Flynn, James Christopher

Morley, C. (Breconshire)

Woods, Samuel

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

Morley, Rt. Hn. J. (Montrose)

Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Morris, Samuel

Yoxall, James Henry

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Gold, Charles

Nussey, Thomas Willans

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Gourley, Sir Edward Temperley

O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

Mr. Munro Ferguson and Sir Thomas Gibson-Car-michael

Griffith, Ellis J.

O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.)

Gurdon, Sir William Brampton

Oldroyd, Mark

Question put, and agreed to.

TITHE RENT-CHARGE (RATES) BILL.
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
Clause 2:—
MR. D. A. THOMAS: On a point of order I desire to ask your
714
ruling. My point is that this Bill does not comply with Standing Orders, and therefore I submit it ought not to be proceeded with. There can be no manner of doubt that it does not comply with the Standing Orders, and if we have such orders surely we ought to abide by them.

715
I rely on Standing Order No. 45, which lays down very definitely that the precise duration of every temporary law shall be expressed in a distinct clause at the end of the Bill. Now this is certainly a Bill of a temporary nature, yet its precise duration is dealt with at the end of a clause which includes many other points. I know there is a precedent, and it is an unfortunate one—the Agricultural Rating Act, 1896.
THE CHAIRMAN: I do not wish to express any opinion on this question, but it cannot be raised now.
MR. D. A. THOMAS: Later on, then?
THE CHAIRMAN: If the hon. Member presses for a decision I must tell him that I think the fact that the Bill has been read a second time has overcome any informality. The point should have been raised on the Second Reading.
MR. D. A. THOMAS: But a Standing Order is a Standing Order.
THE CHAIRMAN: The objection should have been taken when the Speaker was in the Chair. The question cannot be raised now.
MR. D. A. THOMAS: Shall I be in order in raising it on Clause 4?
THE CHAIRMAN: We had better proceed with the second clause.
MR. D. A. THOMAS: At any rate, I will propose an Amendment.
THE CHAIRMAN: As regards the Amendment of the Member for Lichfield, it appears to me to be a pure matter of form, and to have no substance in it.
MR. WARNER: My reason for putting down the Amendment is this—that the ingenuity of some lawyer might nullify the real object of the clause, and therefore if you put in some unnecessary words you may enable a lawyer to do something which is not contemplated by this House. I beg to move this Amendment. I do not think there is any harm in leaving out these words. I do not suppose that the Minister for Agriculture will approve of it, but I think the
716
Amendment ought to be considered by the House.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 1, line 13, to leave out 'unless the context otherwise requires.'"—(Mr. Warner.)
Question proposed—
"That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir R. B. FINLAY,): These words are in the ordinary common form, and I hope the hon. Member will not persist in the Amendment.
MR. LAMBERT: It seems to me that these words should not be inserted. We are not all blessed with a legal education like the Solicitor-General. I contend that a Bill ought to be so drafted that the context should not be required to express its meaning. I am one of those who have often complained of Acts of Parliament being badly drafted, and I have sometimes difficulty in understanding them. Nor am I the only one in that position; for the principal duty of the lawyers is to argue with one another as to the meaning of Acts of Parliament. On the ground of simplicity of drafting, and for the benefit of people outside legal circles, I think the words should be left out.
SIR R. B. FINLAY: They can do no harm.
MR. ELLIS J. GRIFFITH: This Bill is much more important than that one of its provisions should be justified on the ground that "it will do no harm." I hope the Bill is going to do some good and not harm.
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I sympathise with the Solicitor-General in the line he has taken in saying that these words are in "common form," and that there is no reason against their being in the Bill.
MR. LAMBERT: The next Amendment on the Paper, which is in my name, is, in page 1, line 13, after "requires," to insert—
"The expression of 'conforming owner' shall mean owner who acts in strict confor-

717
mity with the doctrines and principles of the Reformed Church of England."
THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member knows that the Amendment which he had on the Paper the first day the Bill was in Committee was ruled out of order, and that this similar Amendment cannot possibly be in order.
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: Yesterday afternoon the First Lord of the Treasury, answering a speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouth, said it was an extraordinary proposition to say that Scotland and Ireland had anything to do with this Bill. The right hon. Gentleman's meaning was perfectly plain—namely, that it would be from Ireland and Scotland that would come some of the money at least required by the Bill. When I listened to the right hon. the First Lord it occurred to me whether it was not possible that Scotland and Ireland were not even directly interested in this Bill, and that it was the duty of the representatives of Scottish and Irish constituencies to see that this Bill was limited entirely to England, and that it should by no possibility be applied to Scotland and Ireland. In looking over the Bill—and I believe that this Bill has been more closely scrutinised than any other during this session—I was surprised to find that there is not within its four corners one single word which expressly and specifically limits the application of the Bill to England. The object of the two Amendments which I have placed on the paper—both of which are in "common form" so much approved by the Solicitor-General, and therefore ought to commend themselves to him—is to make it perfectly plain that the Bill is limited to England only, and does not apply to Scotland or Ireland. The first Amendment I have put down is to define the Local Taxation Account mentioned in the Bill. I propose to add words in Subsection 2 to the effect that "the expression 'The Local Taxation Account' shall have the same meaning as in the Local Government Act, 1888." Now, sir, I would first call the attention of the House to the Estate Duty Grant. The legal definition of the Estate Duty Grant is contained in the Finance Act of 1894, section 19, which is referred to in the Definition Clause proposed by the Government in this Bill. It says that in substitution for the grant of Probate Duties
718
under certain named Acts—no reference is made to the grant out of the Local Taxation Account, 1894—a new grant is to be made called the Estate Duty Grant, and that grant is specifically stated to be "one sum." I direct the attention of hon. Members to the fact that the grant we are dealing with is "one grant"; it is declared by the Act of Parliament to be "one sum," not three separate sums—one sum which is to be paid under the provisions of three separate Acts of Parliament. Now, it is quite true that the Local Government Act of 1888 creates and defines for the purposes of that Act, and not, so far as I am aware, for any other purpose whatever, a Local Taxation Account; anti two other Acts of Parliament created two finance accounts, which were named "Local Taxation (Scotland) Account," and "Local Taxation (Ireland) Account," for the purposes of those Statutes respectively. There are, therefore, three Taxation Accounts, and what we want to make perfectly clear is, that the account from which the money is to come for the purposes of this Bill is the Local Taxation Account mentioned in the Local Government Act of 1888. That is a matter we are entitled to demand on the score of ordinary decencies of Parliamentary draftsmanship; on the score of its being ordinary "common form," to which the Solicitor - General attaches so much importance. This is not the first time the Government has dealt with the Local Taxation Account. In the year 1896 they passed an Act—the Agricultural Rates Act—in which they dealt with the Local Taxation Account, although that Act was clearly and expressly limited to England—while this Act is not limited to England by any single word—by an express provision in the Act itself and in the title of the Act, in accordance with loyalty to "common form" to which the Solicitor-General professes so much attachment. The Government proposed, in the definition clause in the Act of 1896, that the expression "Local Taxation Account" should have the same meaning as in the Local Government Act of 1888. That is the very Amendment that I want to move in this Bill—that the expression "Local Taxation Account" should have the same meaning in this Bill as in the Local Government Act of 1888. I do this because I think it is perfectly necessary and proper to safeguard the other two Local Taxation Accounts,

719
particularly inasmuch as the fund granted by the Finance Act of 1894 is declared to be "one sum," although there are three separate charges upon it. I would like to say a word about my other Amendment, because it is related to this one. I think both are necessary, but possibly one would be sufficient. The second Amendment I want to move is to include in the Title Clause of the Bill, which runs thus at present:—"This Act may be cited as the Tithe Rent-charge (Rates) Act, 1889," the words "and shall extend to England only." If the President of the Board of Agriculture or the Solicitor-General will tell me that they will accept the second Amendment, it may not be necessary to proceed with the first; although, if they accept either, there will be no difficulty about accepting both. At all events, it appears to me absolutely necessary, and I trust that "common form" will induce them to assent to one or other or both of the Amendments of which I have given notice. I cannot see how they can do otherwise. There is nothing in either of the Amendments against the principle of the Bill or against the course taken by the Government on a precisely similar occasion.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 1, line 13, after the word 'requires,' to insert the words, '(a) The expression "the Local Taxation Account" shall have the same meaning as in the Local Government Act, 1888.'"—(Mr. Edmund Robertson.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
SIR R. B. FINLAY: I think I can satisfy my hon. and learned friend that both the Amendments are quite unnecessary, and that this Bill does not extend to Scotland or Ireland, but extends to England only. The Amendments are absolutely unnecessary, because there is no tithe rent-charge in Scotland; there are only teinds; and in Ireland there is now no tithe rent-charge attached to the benefice. So that in the very nature of things the Bill can only extend to England and Wales, and, therefore, the first Amendment is absolutely unnecessary, and will introduce words into the Bill which are not in the least necessary. The second Amendment is also not at all wanted. The Local Taxation Account is limited to England and Wales. If my hon. and
720
learned friend will refer to Sections 20 and 21 of the Local Government Act of 1888, he will see that "Local Taxation Account" is the proper statutory title for England and Wales. The statutory titles of the Scottish and Irish Accounts are the Local Taxation (Scotland) Account, and the Local Taxation (Ireland) Account. I think my hon. and learned friend will see that both of his Amendments are unnecessary.
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: The Solicitor-General's explanation is the most extraordinary I have ever heard. Under the Bill the Commissioners of Inland Revenue are ordered out of the sums payable by them to the Local Taxation Account on account of the Estate Duty Grant to pay one-half of the rates as the tithe. It may be that tithes only exist in England, but the Local Taxation Accounts for Scotland and Ireland are bound to contribute unless a distinction is drawn between the accounts of the three countries. That is perfectly obvious on the face of it. The Solicitor-General is going against the authority of his own Government. If there is the smallest foundation for what he has said, the insertion of the distinction in the Agricultural Rating Act is perfectly senseless. It was seen perfectly plainly in 1896 that it was necessary to state that the fund to be charged was the Local Taxation Account within the meaning of the Local Government Act, 1888, and I would ask what objection there is now to make the thing clear? Let the Government say why they refuse to do now what they did in the case of the Act of 1896. I would like to hear from the Solicitor-General or the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill why they refuse to give protection to Scotland and Ireland in the case of this Bill. The Bill in its general terms is equally applicable to England, Scotland, or Ireland. It is an extraordinary thing that Unionists should not know that. I should have thought it was a part of their education to learn that. The Opposition know perfectly well why the Government refuse to give any reason for their action. It is because they are afraid to have the Bill discussed.
MR. LONG: The fact that the Government refuse to accept an Amendment does not prevent the Bill from being discussed. The right hon. Gentleman asked why the

721
Government did not do in this Bill what was done in the Act of 1896. The answer I give is this: I have the greatest respect for the right hon. Gentleman's opinion, but when it conies to a question of legal interpretation I prefer to take the advice of my hon. and learned friend the Solicitor-General. My hon. and learned friend holds that there was no necessity for any additional words, and the Government agree with him. I have taken the very best advice before adopting the phraseology in the Bill, and I am advised that "the Local Taxation Account" is the statutory description of the account limited to England and Wales. If unnecessary words were put into the Act of 1896, surely that is no reason why it should be done now. There is not the smallest doubt as to the fund out of which the money is to come, and, therefore, the Government decline to accept the Amendment.
MR. HEMPHILL: As an Irish Member, I must certainly rise to support the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Dundee. I do not think it is fair to leave it open to question in a court of justice as to whether the Local Taxation (Ireland) Account might not be encroached upon for the purpose of this Bill. To my knowledge there have been several cases of the judges of the Court of Appeal differing as to the construction of what were considered in this House as very clear words. That being the case I must, on behalf and in protection of the Irish Local Taxation Fund, beg the House to pass this Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Dundee. It is quite true that at present in Ireland there are no tithes attached to benefices, but tithes exist in Ireland as they always did, though they are now vested in a different body. But, as was pointed out by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouth, the point is not whether tithe exists in Ireland; the point is whether the money which is taken by this Bill for the relief of the English parsons could possibly be taken out of the Irish Fund. That is what I want to make perfectly clear. As has been said—and it was obvious to everyone in this House—an Act of Parliament primâ facie applies to the three parts of the United Kingdom, and it requires express words to exclude Ireland or Scotland. The Local Taxation Account (Ireland) and the Local Taxation Account (Scotland) are
722
all part and parcel of the Local Taxation Account. There is nothing in the wording of the Local Taxation Account to exclude Ireland or Scotland. Why leave it open to doubt? Is it for the mere purpose of procedure, or for the purpose of the carriage of this Bill through the House, in addition to all the powers of closure—closure of clauses and closure in every shape and form—that this Amendment is rejected? It cannot possibly do any harm. It may prevent the possibility of a mistake, and I think the Irish Members would be wanting in their duty if they did not, as far as in them lay, support this Amendment to make it clear that the Irish funds shall not be encroached upon for the benefit of the clergy.
MR. GIBSON BOWLES: What the Act of 1894 did was to substitute an entirely new procedure for that of 1888. In this case it is not a question from which of the Local Taxation Accounts this money is to be taken. What this Bill does is to take the money out of the precedent heap which is collected by the Exchequer before it is allocated to the Local Taxation Accounts at all. The sum which has to be passed is absolutely undetermined. It is true we have an estimate of £87,000, but that is a very uncertain estimate, and the whole amount is charged, not to the Local Taxation Account, but to the fund from which the three Local Taxation Accounts are fed. If that is so, it is very necessary to see that no part of that part of the Estate Duty which is devoted to the purposes of technical educations is diverted from its proper channel by this Bill. If there is no desire to avoid discussion on this measure, this is a case for avoiding ambiguity. Let us not have a Bill which is going to lead to lawsuits on matters like this, upon which your profession is that you are doing right and justice. Why cannot the Government accept these simple words? The reason they do not is not because they wish to avoid a discussion on the Report stage, because I do not think the Government would be paltry or mean enough to do such a thing as that. If I were in charge of a Bill, I should welcome anything that would make the Bill more certain in its operation, and I think in this case there is a very strong case made for the acceptance by the Government of this Amendment.
SIR R. B. FINLAY: The hon. Gentleman says that this money is to be taken out of the sums payable to the Local Taxation Account. Now, there are three Local Taxation Accounts—for Ireland, and Scotland. We say this money should be taken out of "The Local Taxation Account," and that affects England and Wales only. The hon. Gentleman has suggested that the matter might come into a court of law, but I do not see how it can possibly do so.
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: The Commissioners of Inland Revenue take the course the law prescribes, and that is the course they will take. It not only can be brought into a court of law, but will be. The opposition of the right hon. Gentleman is the most extraordinary I ever heard; it is perfectly plain that the interest of the English ratepayer is that he shall contribute as little as possible, and of course Ireland and Scotland must contribute their share from some source or other.
SIR R. B. FINLAY: From what source?
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: Does the right hon. Gentleman say, where three people are required to pay, that one shall pay, but that he will not have a form by which the amount due from the other two should be collected? Here are three Statutory Accounts to pay for the endowment of the English clergy, and yet he says he will have no form by which to compel payment from two of them. I should say that outside the House of Commons the right hon. and learned Gentleman—
SIR R. B. FINLAY: I should say out side the House what I have said here.
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: His learning and ingenuity would not fail him like this outside the House. I can understand why he was not anxious to speak upon this Bill. I agree with the hon. Member for King's Lynn that it is intended to pay this money out of the fund from which the Local Taxation Account is fed, and who can say what that money is? To say the least, that is a point that should be cleared up, and it would be very satisfactory if the Solicitor-General would explain to us
724
why he put into the Agricultural Rating Act that particular clause.
DR. CLARK: I think it is desirable that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue should know where they are to get this money from. As this Bill, as I understood, was only to apply to England, I did not propose to interfere in this discussion; but now we have these very ambiguous words, I think some explanation is necessary. This ambiguity ought to be made clear. In the 22nd Clause of the Local Government Act the Commons were empowered to take four-fifths of one-half, and leave one-fifth undetermined, and that one-fifth was afterwards divided between Ireland and Scotland. But this is an interception of the money before it goes into any of these accounts. This amount is to be abstracted from the total sum, and a portion will have to be taken from the Irish and Scotch Local Taxation Accounts. It appears to me these are the facts of the case. If the words "Local Taxation Account" are to be retained, you should determine whether they refer to the Local Taxation Account created by the Local Government (England) Act, 1888. What we want is to make it perfectly clear that the Local Taxation Account mentioned is the account created by that Act. Otherwise, it would be possible to take the amount required out of the whole sum. Indeed, it looks to me that the Bill as it at present stands would compel you to take the amount out of the whole sum. The Amendment makes it clear that the money is to be taken from the sum payable under the 22nd Clause of the Local Government (England) Act, 1888; and, unless it is inserted, the money can be taken from the whole amount contributed to the three funds.
MR. T. P. O'CONNOR: I have scrupulously abstained from taking part in this Debate, for two reasons. Firstly, the Bill refers to the clergy of a different religion from my own, and I have no desire to interfere with the inner concerns of another creed. Up to this Amendment I had been under the impression that this Bill referred to England and to England alone. I have listened carefully to the discussion which has taken place, and I agree with the learned Serjeant on the Front Opposition Bench that the Bill in its present form is

725
calculated to involve Irishmen. I candidly confess that I approach any financial Bill in which Ireland may be involved with a certain amount of perhaps undue and exaggerated apprehension. Every Irishman, irrespective of political parties, and almost without exception, is strongly of opinion that our country is seriously overtaxed. That opinion is backed by the Report of a Royal Commission mainly consisting of Englishmen, and in face of that Report we are still without any serious attempt to relieve us of this injustice. With this feeling and knowledge, we approach every financial Bill with the suspicion, and even the conviction, in our minds that our country is in some way or other cheated. That may be an unfair, but it is a strong suspicion. The second reason why I object to the clause is that this Bill is, for a good or a bad reason, going to add to the endowment of the clergy of the Church of England. We have no Church in Ireland endowed by a single penny of public money, and the policy has been laid down by successive Acts of Parliament that religious equality should be established by an absolute refusal to endow any Church. In face of that we are now presented with a Bill, one of the effects of which may be to tax our people in Ireland, who are mainly of a different religion, for the purpose of endowing the great, wealthy Protestant establishment of this country. You are asking a nation entirely free from establishment to contribute to the endowment of a Church which is Protestant and English. That appears to me to be an intolerable position. The case of the Government is that our apprehension is not justified, and that Ireland cannot be taxed under this Bill. In questions of finance and in the interpretation of statutes I have no right whatever to press my own opinion. But I have listened to this Debate, and when I find the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouthshire, who passed this Act, and the hon. Member for King's Lynn, who was his most constant, persistent, and able critic, in absolute agreement regarding the interpretation of this statute, what am I to do? If the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member who differed in every other respect in regard to this Bill, agree as to its interpretation in this particular, I, as a humble layman, must come to the conclusion that their opinion is more likely to be sound than not. Under these
726
circumstances, a case is made out for doubt and ambiguity. All I can say is as a simple uninformed layman in financial matters that it appears to me that, if a certain amount is to be taken out of a common fund, each contributory to that fund is liable to pay a portion of that amount, and you cannot diminish the fund without diminishing the share of each member of it. Therefore, if you diminish this common fund by a contribution to the English Church, you thereby diminish that portion of the fund belonging to Ireland. All I am concerned to say is that either there is a case of ambiguity or there is not. Surely if there is not, Ireland ought to be relieved from the apprehension of being compelled to pay out of her poverty and Catholicity for the rich Protestant Church of England. Under these circumstances I hope the Government will see their way to accept this Amendment. As to the idea that you must pass this Bill in the exact words in which it was introduced in order to avoid another stage, my experience has always been that such attempts, like curses, come home to roost.
MR. STEVENSON: I cannot conceive any hon. Member, whether he be a friend or an opponent of the Bill, desiring that this money should to the slightest extent come from Scotch or Irish sources for the purpose of helping an arrangement with which neither Scotland nor Ireland has absolutely anything to do. It is perfectly clear from what has fallen from the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Agriculture and the Solicitor-General that there is distinct ambiguity with regard to this term in the Bill. It is perfectly true that a different form of words was adopted in 1896 from that we are now disscussing, but still there is a possibility that some ambiguity may arise in future which may have to be decided at very great cost and after very considerable delay by a court of law. The position with regard to the fund at the disposal of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue may be compared to a great river which divides itself into three streams and forms a sort of delta. Eighty per cent. of the whole volume of water flows through one stream, 11 per cent. through another, and 9 per cent. through the third. What the supporters of this Bill desire to do is to intercept a certain portion of

727
this volume of water for the purpose of irrigating one portion of the delta. In order to intercept the water it is necessary to construct a dam, and the question is whether it is to be constructed at a point above or below where the river divides itself into three streams. Obviously, if the water is intercepted above the dam, there is a possibility of the other channels running drier than before. What we want to know is the precise point where the dam is to be constructed, and whether the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to adopt some form of Amendment which will render any ambiguity absolutely impossible, and which will show in the clearest and most explicit language that he intends that the water shall be intercepted not above but below the point where the river divides itself. Should the right hon. Gentleman refuse to permit an Amendment of this kind at this stage, whatever air of injured innocence he may assume, the country will come to the conclusion that the object of the right hon. Gentleman is to prevent the possibility of time being spent on the Report stage, during which some of these matters might be put before the House and the country with even greater clearness than is possible at the present stage.
MR. CARSON: I should like some information, before I make up my mind upon this point, as to whether any of the sums coming to the Local Taxation Account are sums of money coming from Ireland or Scotland. If not, I cannot see what need there is for these arguments at all. If none of this money comes from Ireland or Scotland, this proposal cannot possibly make any difference to either of those countries. I desire to be assured that none of this money is payable to the Local Taxation Account out of the probate duties from Ireland or from Scotland. I know that under the Act of 1888 there are separate accounts for Ireland and Scotland, and I always was under the impression that special provision was made for Scotch and Irish accounts, and if these are really separate accounts and no money comes to this fund either from Ireland or Scotland which is paid into the Local Taxation Account, I really do not see what we are arguing about.
SIR R. B. FINLAY: I am not sure that my right hon. friend was in the House when I referred to the section which deals with this question. The Local Taxation Account was established under the Local Government Act of 1888, which applies only to England and Wales. The 21st Section is the one which deals with the probate duty, to which the estate duty now corresponds. Under that section fourth-fifths of the probate duty has to be paid into the Bank of England to the Local Taxation Account, and that has to be done in the manner prescribed in the Act. That is the Local Taxation Account, and it is on that account that this Bill rests. The Probate Duties (Scotland and Ireland) Act was passed in 1888 also, and the first section of that Act provided for the opening of two perfectly separate and distinct accounts. I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for calling my attention to this matter, and it is perfectly clear that the Local Taxation Account relates to England, and to England alone. There are, therefore, three separate accounts. One is entitled the Local Taxation Account for England and Wales; the second is the Local Taxation (Scotland) Account for Scotland; and the third is the Local Taxation (Ireland) Account, which relates to Ireland. These two accounts for Scotland and Ireland are established under the Act of 1888, to which I have already referred. The matter is perfectly clear, and I have listened with very great surprise to the doubts expressed by the right hon. Gentleman opposite.
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: I should like to know what are the suits that are going on every day against the Crown and the Commissioners of Inland Revenue. The Solicitor-General has just made a most extraordinary statement.
SIR R. B. FINLAY: The right hon. Gentleman must really forgive my interrupting him, but he is absolutely misinterpreting what I said. What I said was that the right hon. Gentleman cannot suggest that a court of law has authority to control the Crown in the conversion of the revenue. The court of law can decide as to whether different people should pay the revenue or not.
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: This is a most extraordinary statement to come from

729
a Tory Solicitor-General, who, I believe, is probably a Liberal Unionist. But the right hon. Gentleman has not answered one question, which will really throw more light upon this matter than anything he has yet said, The right hon. Gentleman opposite was responsible for the drafting of the Agricultural Land Rating Act of 1896, and we all recollect how the Minister for Agriculture of that day was supported by him throughout all the discussions in this House.
MR. LONG: I was not concerned in that measure.
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: At any rate we all recollect the personal and active part which was taken by the Solicitor-General in that discussion. Now, his argument is that when you use the words "Local Taxation Account" there cannot be the smallest doubt that that means the English account and no other. If that be so, then why did the hon. and learned Gentleman put these words into the Act of 1896:
"The expression 'Local Taxation Account' has the same meaning as in the Local Government Act of 1888."
If it is so clear—and he has expressed his surprise that I should have entertained any doubt on the matter—what doubt was there in his mind which made it necessary for him to explain those words "Local Taxation Account," when he believes, as he has just stated, that they are absolutely unnecessary? I will tell the right hon. Gentleman why he put in those words. He put them in because he knew that there was an ambiguity about the phrase "Local Taxation Account."
SIR R. B. FINLAY: I had nothing whatever to do with the drafting of the Act of 1896, although, as the right hon. Gentleman has stated, I took an active part in the discussion. I had nothing whatever to do with the drafting of the measure, and in my opinion these words are unnecessary.
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: It is a very remarkable thing, because that Act was drafted by one of the ablest men, who is now, unfortunately, not in the service of the Government. But he was a man who would not be likely to put in any un-
730
necessary words. But whoever put in those words knew that, as there were three Local Taxation Accounts, to use the words "Local Taxation Account" was to use an ambiguous phrase. That was the reason why the words were inserted, for it was thought necessary and proper to clearly define the general phrase "Local Taxation Account" as meaning the Local Taxation Account mentioned in the Act of 1888, which was the English Local Taxation Account. That is the reading of the Bill. It is perfectly obvious that this question might be raised in a court of law, and it is specified in the Agricultural Rating Act. In this Act, however, you have given no definition of the words, and, therefore, it will follow the general rule that as there is not the limitation which was put into the Act of 1896 it falls into the ordinary rule, that of an Act of Parliament which applies to all the countries alike; and there being three Local Taxation Accounts, and as you have made no specification as to which account is meant, as you thought it necessary to do in the Act of 1896, I certainly think that it is a reasonable argument to raise at this stage, and I would again ask the Government to reconsider their decision. When the Government were dealing with the Agricultural Rating Act these words were defined; and why is it not necessary to define them in this case? Why should the Government object to insert at the end of this Act the words, "this Act shall not apply to Ireland and Scotland," which would make the matter quite clear? It would be idle to pretend that the House of Commons and the country do not know why it is that you do not do this. What is the use of having all this argument upon this subject, for it simply amounts to this, that you refuse to do in 1899 what you did in 1896.
MR. LONG: I rise not only for the purpose of answering the questions which have been put to me, but also to make an appeal to the House. It is idle and unnecessary for the right hon. Gentleman opposite to say that the Government are resisting this Amendment because they do not desire to have a Report stage. If I may say so, with great respect, I think it is unnecessary to meet a statement of that kind at all. Our position is precisely the same position in which the right hon. Gentleman himself has repeatedly been placed, and if he comes into office he may

731
find himself in that same position again. The Opposition hold that the words which have been proposed ought to be inserted. We hold, acting upon the best legal advice which we can command, that these words are superfluous and unnecessary. There is no mystery about this matter. The right hon. Gentleman asks why the definition was put in the Act of 1896 and is to be left out of the Act of 1899? I may say that in the original draft of the Bill those words were inserted, and they were afterwards taken out, but not for any evil or mysterious purpose. (Opposition cries of "What words?") Why, the words that it is now proposed to insert. There is absolutely nothing to conceal in this matter. The words were taken out of this Act because, as used in the Act of 1896, they were considered to be absolutely unnecessary and superfluous, and because it was thought that the words "Local Taxation Account" was a statutory and well-understood name of a fund which only applied to England; and, therefore, as this particular fund was not known by any other name, it was deemed unnecessary and undesirable to insert those words. There was no intention whatever of deceiving Parliament. The Ministers on this side of the House who are responsible, are satisfied that there is no necessity whatever for the insertion of those words, because the proposal, as it stands, conveys the necessary meaning; and because the Opposition take a different view we are accused of being unreasonable, and of desiring to avoid a Report stage simply because we will not allow hon. Gentlemen opposite to dictate to us what we shall do in regard to our own Bill. I think hon. Gentlemen opposite are really carrying their opposition to this Bill to a very unreasonable extent when they ask us to accept Amendments which are altogether unnecessary, and which the Opposition alone think are desirable. I do not think there is any reason for hon. Members to be alarmed at this proposal. My real object, however, in rising is that I desire to make an appeal to hon. Gentlemen opposite. We have a great many Amendments and new clauses still before us, and I have no doubt many hon. Members opposite desire to discuss them. I do, therefore, appeal to hon. Gentlemen opposite whether it is not now desirable that the Committee should be allowed to proceed at once to a Division upon this particular
732
point. Every argument, I think, for and against has been fully and ably stated. The Government, at any rate, are certainly unconvinced, and they cannot agree to the introduction of this Amendment merely because it is harmless. Under these circumstances I think we might fight the point out now in the Division Lobby.
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: It appears to me that the confession contained in the speech which the right hon. Gentleman has just delivered has destroyed absolutely the only remnant of objection which one could possibly have to the insertion of these words. The right hon. Gentleman tells us now that these words were before him in the original draft. That is to say the distinguished draftsman upon whom reliance has always been placed by this House thought that these words were necessary.
MR. LONG: I beg the hon. Member's pardon, for the draftsman struck out the words himself.
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: That is another confession. We shall get at the real history of these words by-and-bye. I should like to know how the words came to be put in the draft at all if the draftsman himself took them out. I will go a step further and say that the great significance of this Debate is the stubborn resistance which the Government have offered to the words which were in the Bill originally, and which they have now confessed were harmless. I will not make any imputation as to the motive which induced them to offer this resistance, but I will go on and make a confession equally candid. I will admit, for my own part, that if the Government had not inserted those words in the Act of 1896, and if they had not defined these words in two previous Acts, I should not have thought it necessary to raise the question now; but when I find that in the Act of 1896 they thought it necessary to define the words by a special reference to a particular Act, and when four years afterwards they propose another Bill using the same words, but deliberately and for express purposes refuse to limit those words by inserting the same definition, there is certainly something very suspicious about the matter. The right hon. Gentleman him-

733
self now admits that this Amendment is not unreasonable.
Mr. LONG: I admit nothing of the kind.
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that, but I will not press the matter an inch further. My object was to make it perfectly certain, according to the common forms followed by draftsmen who prepare the Bills for this House, that this Bill relates to England only. I told the right hon. Gentleman previously that if he would allow that common form to be added to the Bill applying it to England only, I should make no particular point about the Local Taxation Account, and I should be content with his declaration that the Act was to extend to England only. Reference has been made to Ireland. The Irish Tithe Rent-charge Bill is now before the House, the Attorney-General for Ireland being responsible for it. That is a Bill in which it is made perfectly clear in the title and in every clause that you are dealing with the Irish Tithe Rent-charge in Ireland only, and there is not the faintest doubt about it. The Irish Attorney-General does not hesitate to use the ordinary common form, for the title clause runs:
"This Bill may be cited as the Irish Tithe Rent-charge Bill, and shall extend to Ireland only."
I want corresponding words introduced into this Bill, and if the right hon. Gentleman will promise to accept a similar definition clause my objection to the vagueness of his proposal will be entirely removed, and I shall not even advise my friends to go to a Division. If the right hon. Gentleman does not do this I am afraid we shall have to put hon. members to the trouble of another Division.
MR. VICARY GIBBS: As a hearty supporter of this Bill, may I be allowed to make a suggestion to my right hon, friend in the interests of expedition? We have already spent about two hours upon this point, and if the right hon. Gentleman does not wish to accept these words himself I desire to ask him if he will agree that they shall be introduced in another place; or, at any rate, will he promise to use the influence of the Government in that
734
direction? It seems to me that that would meet the whole case. I do not myself agree that there is any real danger in this matter, and I merely rise in the hope that I may persuade my right hon. friend to get this difficulty out of the way.
MR. DILLON: I think the course of this discussion has shown quite clearly that even experts differ in their interpretation of these Statutes. But is there any wonder that we should be alarmed at this particular thing when we come to consider what will be the course of procedure in carrying out the enactments contained in the provisions of this Bill? The course of procedure will be that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue will be pressed, to use the words of the hon. Member for King's Lynn, to "create an interception," and this thing will all be settled behind the scenes, and it will be months, and perhaps even more than a year, after the money has all been paid away before we shall be able to find out in what proportion the distribution of the money has been made. It is not an extraordinary demand to make that this I question should be put beyond the region of doubt and controversy, which it is quite easy to do. In their proposal the Government, instead of inserting a reference which would have left no possibility of doubt as to the course of procedure which was to be adopted by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, depart altogether from the precedent of previous Acts of Parliament. Therefore it is natural that we should be doubtful and a trifle nervous when we see this departure from the ordinary procedure in previous Acts, and it is ridiculous for the Minister in charge of the Bill and the Solicitor-General to laugh at the doubts which arise in our minds, and to endeavour to make out that there is no danger whatever. What we are afraid of is very simply stated. It may be that a court of law, after careful investigation, would decide this matter on the lines laid down by the Solicitor-General, but it may mean that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue may take a different view, and say that it was the meaning of the Statute that they should first of all take the Estate Duty Grant, which is made under that clause out of the £30,000 which is required by this Act, and then proceed to distribute that grant in the

735
parishes which are laid down in the provisions of the Act, and which may be applied to England, Scotland, and Ireland. We have had to suffer more than once in the past from friendly calculations of this kind; and in this case it would not be a too friendly calculation, for the money does not get into the Treasury at all. The whole discussion is just another illustration of the inconvenience and objectionable character of the new finance—
this system of interceptions of the taxpayers' money on its way to the Treasury. It must lead to the greatest possible misunderstanding and difficulty. At all events, it is perfectly clear that there
is danger of an ambiguity and nothing that has been said by the Government affords any solid reason against the removal of that ambiguity by the insertion of the words of the Amendment.
MR. WALTER LONGrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 250; Noes, 173. (Division List, No. 250.)

AYES.

Allsopp, Hon. George

Charrington, Spencer

Goschen, Rt Hn G. J. (St George'

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Chelsea, Viscount

Goschen, George J. (Sussex)

Arnold, Alfred

Clarke, Sir Edward (Plymouth

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Graham, Henry Robert

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Coddington, Sir William

Green, Walford D (Wednesbury

Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Gull, Sir Cameron

Baillie, James E. B. (Inverness

Colston, Chas. Ed. H. Athole

Gunter, Colonel

Baird, John George Alexander

Compton, Lord Alwyne

Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Balcarres, Lord

Cook, Fred, Lucas (Lambeth)

Halsey, Thomas Frederick

Baldwin, Alfred

Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W.

Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Ed. T. D.

Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.

Balfour, Rt. Hon. G.W.(Leeds

Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge

Hanson, Sir Reginald

Banbury, Frederick George

Cripps, Charles Alfred

Hardy, Laurence

Barnes, Frederic Gorell

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Helder, Augustus

Barry, Rt Hn. A. H. S. (Hunts

Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)

Henderson, Alexander

Barry, Sir Francis T. (Winds'r

Cruddas, William Donaldson

Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

Bartley, George C. T.

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Hoare, Ed. Brodie (Hampstead)

Barton, Dunbar Plunket

Curzon, Viscount

Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)

Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Hobhouse, Henry

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Brist'l

Davies, Sir Horatio D.(Chatham

Holland, Hn. Lionel R. (Bow)

Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Beckett, Ernest William

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe

Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

Howard, Joseph

Beresford, Lord Charles

Dorington, Sir John Edward

Howell, William Tudor

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Doughty, George

Hozier, Hn. James H. Cecil

Biddulph, Michael

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Hubbard, Hn. Evelyn

Bigwood, James

Doxford, William Theodore

Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies

Bill, Charles

Drucker, A.

Jebb, Richard Claverhouse

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Bond, Edward

Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

Jenkins, Sir John Jones

Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme

Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

Jolliffe, Hon. H. George

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Fardell, Sir T. George

Kemp, George

Boulnois, Edmund

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H.

Bousfield, William Robert

Fergusson. Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc.

Kenyon, James

Brassey, Albert

Finch, George H.

Lafone, Alfred

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

Brookfield, A. Montagu

Fisher, William Hayes

Lawson, John Grant (Yorks)

Bullard, Sir Harry

Fison, Frederick William

Lea, Sir Thomas (Londonderry

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Fitz Wygram, General Sir F.

Leighton, Stanley

Butcher, John George

Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)

Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset

Campbell, Rt Hn J.A.(Glasgow

Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)

Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn (Swan'a

Carson, Rt. Hon. Edward

Galloway, William Johnson

Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

Cavendish, R. F. (N.Lancs.)

Gedge, Sydney

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

Gibbons, J. Lloyd

Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lon.

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liver'l)

Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)

Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

Giles, Charles Tyrrell

Lorne, Marquess of

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

Gilliat, John Saunders

Lowe, Francis William

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc.

Gordon, Hon. John Edward

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

Lubbock, Rt. Hn. Sir John

Lucas-Shadwell, William

Pierpoint, Robert

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

Pilkington, R.(Lancs Newton)

Stock, James Henry

Macartney, W. G. Ellison

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Strauss, Arthur

Macdona, John Cumming

Priestley, Sir W Overend (Edin.

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Maclean, James Mackenzie

Purvis, Robert

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd U.)

M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edin. W.)

Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

Thorburn, Walter

Malcolm, Ian

Rankin, Sir James

Thornton, Percy M.

Martin, Richard Buddulph

Rentoul, James Alexander

Tollemache, Henry James

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Richardson, Sir Thos. (Hartlep'l

Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas. J.

Ritche, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

Valentia, Viscount

Milner, Sir Frederick George

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Wanklyn, James Leslie

Milton, Viscount

Round, James

Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent)

Milward, Colonel Victor

Royds Clement Molyneux

Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

Monk, Charles James

Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd

Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.)

Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

Whitmore, Charles Algernon

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Williams, J. Powell-(Brim.)

Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

Savory, Sir Joseph

Willox, Sir John Archibald

More, R. Jasper (Shropshire)

Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard

Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Momn'thsh.

Seely, Charles Hilton

Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath

Morrison, Walter

Seton-Karr, Henry

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

Muntz, Philip A.

Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)

Wylie, Alexander

Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Wyndham, George

Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)

Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Smith, J. Parker (Lanarks.)

Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

Myers, William Henry

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Young, Commander (Berks, E.)

Newark, Viscount

Spencer, Ernest

Younger, William

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)

Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford

Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Stanley, Sir H. M. (Lambeth)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Penn, John

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Percy, Earl

Stephens, Henry Charles

NOES.

Abraham, Wm. (Rhondda)

Davies, M. Vanghan-(Cardigan

Johnson-Ferguson, J. Edw.

Allan, William (Gateshead)

Davitt, Michael

Joicey, Sir James

Allison, Robert Andrew

Dewar, Arthur

Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea

Ambrose, Robert

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Jones, William (Carnarvonsh

Asher, Alexander

Dillon, John

Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt Hn Sir U.

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Donelan, Captain A.

Kearley, Hudson E.

Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.

Doogan, P. C.

Kilbride, Denis

Atherley-Jones, L.

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

Kinloch, Sir John G. Smyth

Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire)

Duckworth, James

Kitson, Sir James

Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)

Dunn, Sir William

Labouchere, Henry.

Barlow, John Emmott

Ellis, John Edward

Lambert, George

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan)

Langley, Batty

Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

Evershed, Sydney

Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

Billson, Alfred

Farquharson, Dr. Robert

Leng, Sir John

Birrell, Augustine

Fenwick, Charles

Leuty, Thomas Richmond

Blake, Edward

Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

Lewis, John Herbert

Broadhurst, Henry

Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

Lloyd-George, David

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Flynn, James Christopher

Logan, John William

Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

Foster, Sir Walter(Derby Co.)

Lough, Thomas

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Fowler, Rt. Hn. Sir Henry

Lyell, Sir Leonard

Burns, John

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Macaleese, Daniel

Burt, Thomas

Gold, Charles

M'Donnell, Dr. M. A. (Qn's C.)

Buxton, Sydney Charles

Gourley, Sir E. Temperley

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Caldwell, James

Griffith, Ellis J.

M'Crae, George

Cameron, Sir Chas. (Glasgow)

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

M'Ewan, William

Cameron, Robert (Durham)

Haldane, Richard Burdon

M'Ghee, Richard

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm.

M'Kenna, Reginald

Carmichael, Sir T. D. Gibson-

Harwood, George

M'Leod, John

Causton, Richard Knight

Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale-

Maddison, Fred

Cawley, Frederick

Hedderwick, Thomas C. H.

Maden, John Henry

Clark, Dr. G. B.(Caithness-sh.

Hemphill, Rt. Hon. C.H.

Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

Clough, Walter Owen

Hogan, James Francis

Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand

Colville, John

Holland, Wm. H. (York, W.R.

Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel)

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Horniman, Frederick John

Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen)

Crombie, John William

Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

Morgan, W. P. (Merthyr)

Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Morley, Chas. (Breconshire)

Dalziel, James Henry

Jacoby, James Alfred

Morley, Rt. Hn. J.(Montrose)

738

739

Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)

Rickett, J. Compton

Wallace, Robert

Moss, Samuel

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.

Moulton, John Fletcher

Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.

Norton, Captain Cecil W.

Robson, William Snowdon

Weir, James Galloway

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Whiteley, George (Stockport)

O'Brien, James F. C. (Cork)

Schwann, Charles E.

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.)

Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

Williams, J. Carvell (Notts.)

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Wills, Sir William Henry

Oldroyd, Mark

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B)

Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull)

O'Malley, William

Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfars.)

Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.

Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham)

Smith, Samuel (Flint)

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Palmer, G. W. (Reading)

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Paulton, James Mellor

Souttar, Robinson

Wilson, John (Govan)

Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)

Spicer, Albert

Wilson, Jos. H. (Middlesbro')

Pickard, Benjamin

Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.

Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf.

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Steadman, William Charles

Woods, Samuel

Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lncs. S W)

Stevenson, Francis S.

Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

Power, Patrick Joseph

Stuart, James (Shoreditch)

Yoxall, James Henry

Price, Robert John

Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

Reckitt, Harold James

Thomas, Alf. (Glamorgan, E.)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Redmond, Jn. E. (Waterford)

Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr

Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur

Richardson, J. (Durham, S.E.

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Question put accordingly, "That those words be there inserted."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 174; Noes, 250. (Division List, No. 251.)

AYES.

Abraham, W. (Rhondda)

Ellis, John Edward

Logan, John William

Allan, W. (Gateshead)

Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan)

Lough, Thomas

Allison, Robert Andrew

Evershed, Sydney

Lyell, Sir Leonard

Ambrose, Robert

Farquharson, Dr. Robert

Macaleese, Daniel

Asher, Alexander

Fenwick, Charles

MacDonnell, Dr. (Queen's Co

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Asquith, Rt. Hon. H. Henry

Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

M'Crae, George

Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)

Flynn James Christopher

M'Dermott, Patrick

Barlow, John Emmott

Foster, Sir Walter(Derby Co.)

M'Ewan William

Bayley, T. (Derbyshire)

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

M'Ghee, Richard

Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

Goddard, Daniel Ford

M'Leod, John

Billson, Alfred

Gold, Charles

Maddison, Fred.

Birrell, Augustine

Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley

Maden, John Henry

Blake, Edward

Griffith, Ellis J.

Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe.

Broadhurst, Henry

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand

Brunner, Sir J. Tomlinson

Haldane, Richard Burdon

Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel)

Bryce, Right Hon. James

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir W.

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Buchanan, T. Ryburn

Harwood, George

Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthr.

Burns, John

Hayne, Rt Hn. Charles Seale-

Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

Burt, Thomas

Hedderwick, Thomas C. H.

Morley, Rt. Hn. J. (Montrose)

Buxton, Sydney Charles

Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H.

Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

Caldwell, James

Hogan, James Francis

Moss, Samuel

Cameron, Sir C. (Glasgow)

Holland, W. H. (York, W. R.)

Moulton, John Fletcher

Cameron, Robert (Durham)

Horniman, Frederick John

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Carmichael, Sir T. D. Gibson-

Hutton Alfred E. (Morley)

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Causton, Richard Knight

Jacoby, James Alfred

O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

Cawley, Frederick

Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez E.

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Clough, Walter Owen

Joicey, Sir James

O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal)

Colville, John

Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea)

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Crombie, John William

Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt Hn Sir U.

Oldroyd, Mark

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Kearley, Hudson E.

O'Malley, William

Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

Kilbride, Denis

Dalziel, James Henry

Kinloch, Sir J. G. Smyth

Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham)

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

Kitson, Sir James

Palmer, George Wm.(Reading)

Davitt, Michael

Labouchere, Henry

Paulton, James Mellor

Dewar, Arthur

Lambert, George

Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Langley, Batty

Pickard, Benjamin

Dillon, John

Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland)

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Donelan, Captain A.

Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs, S W

Doogan, P. C.

Leng, Sir John

Power, Patrick Joseph

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

Leuty, Thomas Richmond

Price, Robert John

Duckworth, James

Lewis, John Herbert

Reckitt, Harold James

Dunn, Sir William

Lloyd-George, David

Redmond, John E.(Waterford)

Richardson, J. (Durham, S.E.)

Steadman, William Charles

Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull)

Rickett, J. Compton

Stevenson, Francis S.

Wilson, H. J. (York, W.R.)

Roberts, John H. (Denbighsh.

Stuart, James (Shoreditch)

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Robson, William Snowdon

Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Wilson, John (Govan)

Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

Wilson, J.H. (Middlesbrough)

Schwann, Charles E.

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf.

Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

Wallace, Robert

Woods, Samuel

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)

Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)

Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.)

Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.

Yoxall, James Henry

Smith, Samuel (Flint)

Weir, James Galloway

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Whiteley, George (Southport)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Souttar, Robinson

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur.

Spicer, Albert

Williams, J. Carvell (Notts.)

Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.

Wills, Sir William Henry

NOES.

Allsopp, Hon. George

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Hanson, Sir Reginald

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Hardy, Laurence

Arnold, Alfred

Colston, Chas. Edw. H.Athole

Heaton, John Henniker

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Compton, Lord Alwyne

Helder, Augustus

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)

Henderson, Alexander

Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W.

Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

Baillie, J. E. B. (Inverness)

Cotton-Jodrell,Col. Edw. T.D.

Hoare, Edw Brodie (Hampstead

Baird, John George Alexander

Cox,Irwin Edward Bainbridge

Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)

Balcarres, Lord

Cripps, Charles Alfred

Hobhouse, Henry

Baldwin, Alfred

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Holland, Hon. Lionel R. (Bow)

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

Cruddas, William Donaldson

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Balfour, Rt. Hn. G.W. (Leeds)

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Banbury, Frederick George

Curzon, Viscount

Howard, Joseph

Barnes, Frederic Gorell

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Howell, William Tudor

Barry, Rt Hn A. H Smith-(Hunts

Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chath'm

Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

Barry, Sir F. T. (Windsor)

Denny, Colonel

Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn

Bartley, George C. T.

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies

Barton, Dunbar Plunket

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Jebb, Richard Claverhouse

Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin

Dorington, Sir John Edward

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol)

Doughty, George

Jenkins, Sir John Jones

Beach, W. W. B. (Hants)

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Jolliffe, Hon. H. George

Beckett, Ernest William

Doxford, William Theodore

Kemp, George

Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe

Drucker, A.

Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

Beresford, Lord Charles

Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

Kenyon, James

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

Kimber, Henry

Biddulph, Michael

Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

Lafone, Alfred

Bigwood, James

Fardell, Sir T. George

Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)

Bill, Charles

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir, J. (Manc'r

Leighton, Stanley

Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme

Finch, George H.

Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset)

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'ns'a

Boulnois, Edmund

Fisher, William Hayes

Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

Bousfield, William Robert

Fison, Frederick William

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Brassey, Albert

Fitz Wygram, General Sir F.

Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)

Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverpool)

Brookfield, A. Montagu

Galloway, William Johnson

Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

Bullard, Sir Harry

Gedge, Sydney

Lorne, Marquis of

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Gibbons, J. Lloyd

Lowe, Francis William

Butcher, John George

Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H (City of Lond)

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Campbell, Rt Hn J. A. (Glasgow)

Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

Lubbock, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Carson, Rt. Hon. Edward

Giles, Charles Tyrrell

Lucas-Shadwell, William

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Gilliat, John Saunders

Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

Cavendish,V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

Gordon, Hon. John Edward

Macartney, W. G. Ellison

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

Macdona, John Cumming

Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)

Goschen, Rt Hn G. J (St George's

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

Goschen, George J. (Sussex)

Maclean, James Mackenzie

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)

Goulding, Edward Alfred

M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W

Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r)

Graham, Henry Robert

Malcolm, Ian

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Green, Walford D (Wednesbury

Martin, Richard Biddulph

Charrington, Spencer

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Chelsea, Viscount

Gull, Sir Cameron

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Clare, Octavius Leigh

Gurdon, Sir William Brampton

Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas. J.

Clarke, Sir Edward (Plymouth)

Hall, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Halsey, Thomas Frederick

Milner, Sir Frederick George

Coddington, Sir William

Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George

Milton, Viscount

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.

Milward, Colonel Victor

742

743

Monk, Charles James

Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlepool)

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants)

Ridley, Rt. Hon Sir Matthew W

Talbot, Rt Hn J. G. (Oxford Uni.

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson

Thorburn, Walter

Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

Robertson, Herbt. (Hackney)

Thornton, Percy M.

More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

Round, James

Tollemache, Henry James

Morgan, Hn. F. (Monmouthsh.)

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Tomlinson, Wm. Ed. Murray

Morrison, Walter

Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

Samuel, H. S. (Limehouse)

Valentia, Viscount

Muntz, Philip A.

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Wanklyn, James Leslie

Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

Savory, Sir Joseph

Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent)

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard

Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath)

Seely, Charles Hilton

Wharton, Rt. Hon. J. Lloyd

Myers, William Henry

Seton-Karr, Henry

Whitmore, Charles Algernon

Newark, Viscount

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Williams, Jos. Powell-(Birm.

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

O'Neill, Hon. Robt. Torrens

Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Penn, John

Smith, J. Parker (Lanarks.)

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Percy, Earl

Smith, Hon. W.F.D.(Strand)

Wylie, Alexander

Pierpoint, Robert

Spencer, Ernest

Wyndham, George

Pilkington, R. (Lancs Newton)

Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)

Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Stanley, Sir H. M.(Lambeth)

Young, Commander (Berks, E.)

Priestley, Sir W. Overend (Edin

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Younger, William

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Stephens, Henry Charles

Purvis, Robert

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

Stock, James Henry

Sir William Walrond and Mr Anstruther

Rankin, Sir James

Strauss, Arthur

Rentoul, James Alexander

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Question put, and agreed to.

MR. J. H. ROBERTS: I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name to leave out Subsection (a). I do not feel that there is any reason whatever, after what has been said, why that sub-section should appear in the Bill at all. The meaning of the Estate Duty Grant is perfectly clear, and I do not think any object can be served by the insertion of the words contained in the sub-section. I therefore move that the sub-section be omitted.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 1, line 14, to leave out Sub-section (a)."—(Mr. J. H. Roberts.)
Question proposed, "That Sub-section (a) stand part of the clause."
SIR R. B. FINLAY: The Government cannot accept the Amendment, because we regard the words as absolutely necessary
MR. LLOYD - GEORGE: I do not see that these words are necessary at all. There is only one Estate Duty Grant, and the Commissioners can, without the aid of any interpretation clause, see exactly what the meaning is.
MR. WARNER: I have a similar Amendment on the Paper, and I think,
744
therefore, I ought to state why I put it there. It seems to me that the simplest way would have been not to have a separate sub-section in the definition clause of the Bill, but simply to have said, "Given under Section 19 of the Finance Act, 1894" at the end of Clause I, It only makes the Bill more difficult for the layman to understand to retain the words as they stand now. I certainly do not see the necessity for this subsection, and I shall certainly support my hon. friend's Amendment.
MR. J. H. ROBERTS: The Amendment which I wish to move is to leave out from "curacies" in Clause 2, Section 2, page 1, line 18, to end of sub-section. The effect of my Amendment will be to withdraw from the operation of this Bill two or three distinct classes of benefices—first, parochial chapelries; secondly, chapelries or districts belonging, or reputed to belong, or annexed, or reputed to be annexed, to any church or chapel; and, thirdly, districts formed for ecclesiastical purposes by statute. I think there is by this time no doubt that whatever the attitude of the Government as to this Bill may be, the real reason for its introduction is the peculiar position of the clergy in regard to their incomes. It is on account of the smallness of their

745
incomes that this Bill has been introduced. That this Bill is only a temporary Bill—to last for two and a half years—is proof, of that contention, and the reading of the evidence placed before the Royal Commission on the subject confirms that view in the most ample manner. I think I am therefore justified in laying down that this Bill is intended for the relief of those clergy in the country who depend entirely upon the proceeds of the tithe rent-charge, and my Amendment stands or falls upon that point, namely, whether they derive their income substantially from that source or not. I have taken the trouble to go through an interesting Return upon this subject which was furnished to this House in 1891. It gives full information as to the districts formed for ecclesiastical purposes during the years 1880 and 1890. I am not going to weary the Committee with statistics and figures from this Return, but I should like to point out that any hon. Member may find out for himself, if he studies this Return, that, so far as the majority of these districts are concerned, the tithe rent-charge assigned to them is of the smallest dimensions. When the income of the clergy from endowment is, on the average, from £300 to £500, and when the tithe rent-charge is only £10, £20, or £30, is it just or right that the same relief in regard to the rating should be applied? I further wish to call attention to one phrase in this section which seems to me to require some explanation from the right hon. Gentleman opposite. I should like to know what is the meaning of the phrase "and chapelries or districts belonging or reputed to belong, or annexed, or reputed to be annexed, to any church or chapel." It passes my comprehension to understand how it is desirable or necessary to introduce into a section of this kind words of that character.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 1, line 18, to leave out from the word 'curacies,' to the end of paragraph (b)."—(Mr. J. H. Roberts.)
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
SIR R. B. FINLAY: I hope the Committee will retain these words. The Amendment moved by the hon. Gentleman is really in substance an attempt to
746
undo a great part of what the Committee has already decided upon under the first clause—namely, that certain relief shall be given in the case of tithe rent-charge attached to benefices. The Amendment will, in fact, eviscerate that clause.
MR. ASQUITH: Will the Solicitor-General explain the concluding words of the section, relating to benefices under the patronage of the Crown?
SIR R. B. FINLAY: These words are merely put in on the principle that an Act of Parliament does not apply to the Crown unless the Crown is expressly mentioned.
MR. LEWIS: I rise for the purpose of drawing the attention of the Solicitor-General to the fact that he has not replied to the most important part of the case put forward by my hon. friend. I would especially draw his attention to the words "and districts formed for ecclesiastical purposes by virtue of statutory authority." The question was put earlier in this Debate to the Government whether the Ecclesiastical Commissioners were or were not to derive any benefit under this Bill. I remember the question being put very well, and I remember the answer given by the right hon. Gentleman. It was denied that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners were to derive any benefit whatever under this Bill. What have the Ecclesiastical Commissioners been doing, and what are they doing continually? They are forming new districts for ecclesiastical purposes, and those districts are being formed by virtue of statutory authority. But what will happen in the future with regard to those districts? They will simply have a further endowment of 10 per cent. paid out of the funds of the nation, in addition to the endowment which they will get if they annex any tithe in their possession to the benefice. I daresay hon. Gentlemen opposite would like to have a further endowment of the Church of England in that particular way.
SIR R. B. FINLAY: Districts are, of course, formed in the way mentioned by the hon. Member, and they may remain districts for some time without becoming parishes. If they have tithes annexed to them and endowments derived from them, then it is proper that the benefits

747
of this provision should be extended to such cases.
MR. SAMUEL EVANS: I object to the words in question, because they will enable the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to attach a very large extent of tithe rent-charge to new districts, which they will undoubtedly form as soon as they possibly can.
MR. LAMBERT: I do not wish to detain the Committee for more than a moment, but there is in line 20 a phrase which is not quite clear to the lay mind. I would like to ask the meaning of the word "reputed" to belong. It is used in two distinct places—"Chapelries or districts belonging, or reputed to belong, or annexed or reputed to be annexed to any church or chapel." If a thing belongs to any church or chapel it does belong to it, but surely you need not bring in under this Bill any thing "reputed" to belong.
SIR R. B. FINLAY: A question might arise as to the precise extent of the Common Law right, and this is intended to make the matter quite clear.
MR. HUMPHREYS - OWEN: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what is the difference between "belonging to" and "annexed to"?
SIR R. B. FINLAY: "Belonging to" means that which was given to the benefice when it was formed, "annexed to" that which was given afterwards.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: The interpretation put upon this clause by the Solicitor-General raises a very important point. It is to be extended to chapelries belonging to or reputed to belong to any church or chapel. A new district is formed and a chapel is endowed, that is, a certain sum is put aside for its use, and then comes the question as to how that money is going to be invested. The trustees come to the conclusion that they will invest the money in tithe rent-charge in the hands of the lay impropriator. The question is, is such a transaction within the Act? If it is, it raises a most important point. Suppose you purchase the tithe rent-charge 100 miles away; directly you do so that tithe rent-charge
748
is equal to a £50 endowment to the chapel, which is equivalent to adding £2,000 to the endowment. I should like to know if I am correct in my interpretation of the clause. Instead of the whole of the money being handed over to the church, it might be divided between the church and the lay impropriator. The lay impropriator might say, "You benefit to the extent of £50 a year, therefore I am going to put another £1,000 on to the price."
SIR R. B. FINLAY: I doubt whether that question is relevant to the matter before the House, but I will answer it nevertheless. If a certain sum of money is invested for the endowment of an existing vicarage or of a new district, it is not subject to rates. The whole injustice is this, that, where a benefice is endowed with tithes, rates are charged. If you have £1,000 which you wish to give to a church and it is invested in Consols or some other stock, no rates are charged. Therefore nothing is gained by buying tithe rent-charge from the lay impropriator. The same value is obtained, only it did not become subject to rates. The amount obtained is not altered by changing the form of investment. I think the question has a very remote reference to the subject before us.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Then I understand the answer is in the affirmative.
SIR R. B. FINLAY: The hon. and learned Member understands that perfectly well.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I am glad to have that admission. I think it raises a very important point. The hon. Gentleman does not challenge the argument I laid down, which is that a sum of money may be collected in Liverpool or Newcastle; if, instead of investing it in Consols, you invest it in tithes in a parish 300 miles away, you can arrange a deal with the lay impropriator by which you can give £3,000 for a thing only worth £2,000, and say, we do not mind giving you the £1,000 because we make £1,000, and the money after all will come out of the ratepayers. This is done under a Bill the object of which is right and justice. This measure will lend itself to transactions little short of fraudulent.
MR. HEDDERWICK: If the Solicitor-General is correct, will not this Bill not only have the effect of relieving the clerical tithe-owners of half their rate, but increasing the value of tithes generally?
THE CHAIRMAN: I do not see how that arises on the question of the definition of the words proposed to be left out.
MR. LEWIS: I wish to put a specific instance which arises on the Amendment of my hon. friend. I have in my mind a parish with a chapelry endowed with £10,000 by the mother of the lay impropriator. I wish to know whether it is possible and how the Government proposes to meet a case in which by arrangement between the parties the lay tithe may be made free to the extent of one-half of the rates. The Government have admitted over and over again that the lay tithes have been omitted from the Bill because they could not, in justice, be included in it; but there are cases in which the lay tithe-owners will be largely benefited under this Bill, and nothing can be done to prevent it.
THE CHAIRMAN: I do not see that the case the hon. Gentleman refers to would be met by the omission of the words now before the Committee.
MR. LEWIS: If these words are omitted the specific transaction to which I referred would not be possible under the Bill. I want to know what guarantee there is that justice will be done by the action the Government are taking.
THE CHAIRMAN: The endowment to which the hon. Member referred can be made applicable to special curacies, which has already been passed.
MR. ASQUITH: Before you put the Question, Sir, I should like to know whether you rule that upon the Amendment of my hon. friend we are not entitled to discuss the effect which this definition clause will have if passed in its present shape on what I might call future annexations of tithe rent-charge, which do not at present exist. In my judgment it is a question of great importance, but I do not want to be out of order in discussing it.
THE CHAIRMAN: I think the matter has already been discussed. It was discussed on an Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Merthyr to insert the words "attached to," and it was admitted that "attached to" would cover future cases.
MR. D. A. THOMAS: Upon a point of order, Sir, I moved the Amendment, but I never raised that point at all, Sir.
THE CHAIRMAN: It is perfectly true that the hon. Member did not raise the point, but other hon. Members did, and discussed it for a considerable period. The matter was fully gone into
MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Would it not be in order to discuss the point in connection with the endowment of chapelries which are freshly endowed? I propose to confine myself to that point.
THE CHAIRMAN: The difficulty in the way of the hon. Member is that it was discussed in the previous Amendment to which I referred.
MR. LLOYD - GEORGE: I do not understand you to rule, Sir, that it is absolutely out of order, though I quite see the difficulty; but it is really a most important point, and one upon which I desire to have your ruling particularly.
THE CHAIRMAN: In my opinion the case has been discussed and decided when the Committee decided that the words "attached to" should remain in the Bill. I do not think the question can be raised again on this Amendment.
MR. D. A. THOMAS: You have referred, Sir, to the Amendment I moved on Monday last, but I did not raise this point, and it does seem a little hard upon me that, because some discussion which was evidently out of order took place on that occasion, I should now be said to have raised the discussion.
THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member chose to raise the same point by moving his Amendment, and there was consider-

751
able discussion on the point If my recollection serves me correctly, there was a long discussion on it.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 228; Noes, 152. (Division List, No. 252.)

AYES.

Allsopp, Hon. George

Dorington, Sir John Edward

Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Doughty, George

Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swans'a

Arnold, Alfred

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Lockwood, Lieut. Col. A. R.

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Doxford, William Theodore

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Drucker, A.

Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

Baillie, James E. B.(Inverness

Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverpool)

Balcarres, Lord

Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

Baldwin, Alfred

Fardell, Sir T. George

Lorne, Marquess of

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.

Lowe, Francis William

Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds

Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir, J. (M'nc'r

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Banbury, Frederick George

Finch, George H.

Lucas-Shadwell, William

Barnes, Frederic Gorell

Finlay, Sir R. Bannatyne

Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

Barry, R. Hn. A. H. Smith-(Hnt

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Macartney, W. G. Ellison

Barry, Sir Francis T. (Winds'r

Fisher, William Hayes

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Bartley, George C. T.

Fison, Frederick William

Maclean, James Mackenzie

Barton, Dunbar Plunket

FitzWygram, General Sir F.

M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinb'gh,W.

Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin

Flower, Ernest

Malcolm, Ian

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol

Galloway, William Johnson

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants

Gibbons, J. Lloyd

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Beckett, Ernest William

Gibbs, Hon. V. (St. Albans)

Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas. J.

Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull

Giles, Charles Tyrrell

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe

Gilliat, John Saunders

Milner, Sir Frederick George

Beresford, Lord Charles

Godson, Sir A. Frederick

Milton, Viscount

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Gordon, Hon. John Edward

Milward, Colonel Victor

Biddulph, Michael

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon

Monk, Charles James

Bigwood, James

Goschen, Rt Hn G. J (St George's

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Bill, Charles

Goschen, G. J. (Sussex)

Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Goulding, Edward Alfred

More, Robt. Jasper (Shopshire)

Bond, Edward

Graham, Henry Robert

Morgan, Hn, Fred (Monm'thsh.

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)

Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

Bousfield, William Robert

Gretton, John

Muntz, Philip A.

Bowles, T. G. (King's Lynn)

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Gull, Sir Cameron

Murray, Charles J.(Coventry)

Brookfield, A. Montagu

Gunter, Colonel

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Bullard, Sir Harry

Hall, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles

Newark, Viscount

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Halsey, Thomas Frederick

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Butcher, John George

Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G.

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Carson, Rt. Hon. Edward

Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert W.

Penn, John

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Hanson, Sir Reginald

Percy, Earl

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derby.)

Hardy, Laurence.

Pierpoint, Robert

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Heaton, John Henniker

Pilkington, R. (Lancs. Newton)

Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)

Helder, Augustus

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

Henderson, Alexander

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)

Hermon-Hodge, R. Trotter

Priestley, Sir W. O. (Edin.)

Chamberlain, J. A. (Wor'cr.)

Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)

Purvis, Robert

Charrington, Spencer

Hobhouse, Henry

Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

Chelsea, Viscount

Holland, Hn. Lionel R. (Bow)

Rankin, Sir James

Clarke, Sir Ed. (Plymouth)

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlepool)

Cochrane, Hon. Thos H. A. E.

Howard, Joseph

Ridley, Rt Hon Sir Matthew W.

Coddington, Sir William

Howell, William Tudor

Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-

Round, James

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Jebb, Richard Claverhouse

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Compton, Lord Alwyne

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Russell, T. W.(Tyrone)

Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)

Kemp, George

Savory, Sir Joseph

Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley, W

Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir J. H.

Seely, Charles Hilton

Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge

Kenyon, James

Seton-Karr, Henry

Cripps, Charles Alfred

Kimber, Henry

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

King, Sir Henry Seymour

Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Lafore, Alfred

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Curzon, Viscount

Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverp'l)

Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks)

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand

Davies, Sir Hon. D. (Chatham

Lea, Sir Thomas (Lodonderry

Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)

Denny, Colonel

Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. E. H.

Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

Stanley, Sir H. M. (Lambeth)

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Leighton, Stanley

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Stock, James Henry

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Strauss, Arthur

Valentia, Viscount

Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Wanklyn, James Leslie

Wylie, Alexander

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Warde, Lieut.-Col. C.E.(Kent

Wyndham, George

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G. (Ox'd Univ.

Whitmore, Charles Algernon

Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

Thorburn, Walter

Williams, J. Powell-(Birm'g'm.

Younger, William

Thornton, Percy M.

Willox, Sir John Archibald

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Tollemache, Henry James

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Tomlinson, Wm. Ed. Murray

Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

NOES.

Abraham William (Rhondda)

Gold, Charles

Oldroyd, Mark

Allan, William (Gateshead)

Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley

O'Malley, William

Allison, Robert Andrew

Griffith, Ellis J.

Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham)

Ambrose, Robert

Gurdon, Sir William Brampton

Palmer, Geo. Wm. (Reading)

Asher, Alexander

Haldane, Richard Burdon

Paulton, James Mellor

Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm.

Pease, Jos. A. (Northumb.)

Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire)

Harwood, George

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs, S W

Barlow, John Emmott

Hedderwick, Thomas Charles H

Power, Patrick Joseph

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

Price, Robert John

Beaumont, Wentworth, C. B.

Holland, Wm. H. (York, W. R.)

Priestley, Briggs (Yorks.)

Billson, Alfred

Horniman, Frederick John

Randell, David

Blake, Edward

Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

Reckitt, Harold James

Bolton, Thomas Dolling

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Richardson, J. (Durham, S. E.

Broadhurst, Henry

Jacoby, James Alfred

Robertson, E. (Dundee)

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez E.

Robson, W. Snowdon

Bryce, Right Hon. James

Joicey, Sir James

Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire

Schwann, Charles E.

Burns, John

Kearley, Hudson, E.

Scott, C. Prestwich (Leigh)

Buxton, Sydney Charles

Kilbride, Denis

Shaw, C. E. (Stafford)

Caldwell, James

Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Cameron, Sir Chas.(Glasgow)

Kitson, Sir James

Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire)

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Labouchere, Henry

Smith, Samuel (Flint)

Causton, Richard Knight

Lambert, George

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Cawley, Frederick

Lawson Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land

Souttar, Robinson

Clough, Walter Owen

Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

Spicer, Albert

Colville, John

Leng, Sir John

Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Leuty, Thomas Richmond

Steadman, William Charles

Crilly, Daniel

Lewis, John Herbert

Stevenson, Francis S.

Crombie, John William

Logan, John William

Stuart, James (Shoreditch)

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Lough, Thomas

Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

MacAleese, Daniel

Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Dalziel, James Henry

M'Arthur, William(Cornwall)

Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

M'Crae, George

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

M'Dermott, Patrick

Wallace, Robert

Dillon, John

M'Ewan, William

Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds,S.)

Donelan, Captain A.

M'Ghee, Richard

Warner, Thomas C. T.

Doogan, P. C.

M'Leod, John

Weir, James Galloway

Duckworth, James

Maddison, Fred

Whiteley, George (Stockport)

Dunn, Sir William

Maden, John Henry

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel)

Williams, John C. (Notts.)

Evans, Sir Francis H. (South'ton

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Wilson, H. J. (York, W. R.)

Evershed, Sydney

Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merth'r

Wilson, J.(Durham, Mid.)

Farquharson, Dr. Robert

Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

Wilson, John (Govan)

Fenwick, Charles

Morley, Rt. Hon. J. (Montrose)

Woodhouse, Sir. J. T. (Huddsfld)

Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)

Woods, Samuel

Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

Moss, Samuel

Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

Flynn, James Christopher

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Yoxall, James Henry

Foster, Sir Walter(Derby Co.)

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert J.

O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.)

Mr. Herbert Roberts and Mr. Lloyd-George.

Goddard, Daniel Ford

T. P. O'Connor, (Liverpool)

MR. D. A. THOMAS: I quite recognise that the second part of the Amendment I have on the Paper is not now in order, but the first part is. The object of that part is to limit as far as possible the extent of the Bill. The Committee have
754
already decided that incumbents presented to a living after the passing of the Act should receive the benefit, but they have not yet decided or discussed whether those who have been recently presented should receive the benefit of the Bill. I

755
should like to limit it to those who have been presented to livings since the passing of the Agricultural Rating Act, 1896, and before the passing of the present Act. In my mind they are the only ones who can have had their expectations aroused of having half their rates paid. There can be no kind of sense of grievance with the rest, and therefore I beg to move this Amendment.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 1, line 25, to leave out paragraph (c) of Sub-section 1, and insert the words, 'The expression "owner," means the incumbent in receipt of the tithe rent-charge at the date of the passing of this Act.'"—(Mr. David Thomas.)
Question proposed, "That paragraph (c), of Sub-section 1, stand part of the clause."
MR. LONG: I hope the hon. Gentleman does not mean seriously to press this Amendment; if he does, I hope the Committee will reject it, because it proposes to reverse the decisions of other stages of the proceedings. We are asked to limit the clause to incumbents now in possession of their benefices; but if this Act comes into force the same rule ought to apply to the new incumbent as to the old.
MR. LEWIS: I cannot allow this opportunity to go by without protesting against the "legislation by reference" that we see in this particular sub-section. We are told that the expressions "owner of tithe rent-charge" and "tithe rent-charge" have the same meanings respectively as in the Tithe Act of 1891. When that Act is turned up it is found that a reference is made to the Tithe Act of 1836, so that to find out the meaning of these terms the Act of 1836 has to be consulted. This is a question in which not only lawyers but laymen are becoming increasingly concerned. If the Government introduce measures of this kind they ought to make them plain and simple to the ordinary intelligence. The country lawyer has to have his shelves stacked with volumes of old statutes, or else he is unable to explain to his clients what the meaning of such a section is. The very least the Government could have done would have been to refer people, not to the Act of 1891, but to the Act of 1836. I feel so strongly upon this subject that unless I
756
receive a satisfactory explanation why the clause has been so drawn I shall feel compelled to go to a Division.
MR. SAMUEL EVANS: As a matter of fact, in the Tithe Act of 1891, Sec. 9, you are referred not merely to the Tithe Act of 1836 but to the Extraordinary Tithe Redemption Act of 1836, and to the Tithe Act of 1860, so that you have to refer to four Acts of Parliament before you can get a definition. This kind of drafting ought to come to an end. It lends some colour to the allegation which is sometimes made by people who do not know any better that Acts of Parliament are drafted in an obscure way for the benefit of the lawyers. You can explain in a few plain words what is meant by these terms, but instead of that a person is referred from Act of Parliament to Act of Parliament, and he is a very wise man who after consulting them can come to any definite conclusion at all. With regard to the substance of the Amendment, I exonerate the mover entirely from having supported an Amendment of mine which was the converse of this; I believe he voted against it. But we cut the Bill into two parts—those referring to past and future. If we could get rid of the benefits proposed to be given to those who lived in the past we should be very pleased, but if we could cut off the benefits from those who live in the future we should be, perhaps, still more pleased. I shall, therefore, with a perfectly clear conscience support the Amendment.
MR. ELLIS J. GRIFFITH: As far as I understand, the only reason why we are asked to support this Bill at all is in order to do some sort of justice to these people who have suffered so much in the past. If that is so, there is no reason whatever why we should confer any benefits upon future incumbents. They will then know perfectly well that they will not get any benefit, and therefore they will have no grievance on the ground that they are under a disadvantage as compared with those appointed before the passing of the Act. Consequently I shall vote for the Amendment.
SIR J. T. BRUNNER: The desire to have Acts of Parliament clear to the common understanding is one that I hold very dear indeed. I am delighted to have the

757
opportunity of appealing once more to Her Majesty's Government to take the advice which I have so often said has been given to them by the noble Lord at the head of the Government. Lord Salisbury has declared that the method of drafting Acts of Parliament was extremely repugnant to him, and he has made a promise, which I hope he will some day fulfil, of bringing in a Bill which should put an end to this mischief. Year after year we pass Acts of Parliament which necessitate references ad nauseam to former Acts, and I hope that these few words of mine may fall upon some good ground—if not on the Treasury bench, then elsewhere—and that my heart may be gladdened some day or other by this advice being taken.
MR. LEUTY: I am somewhat curious to know how the element of justice can possibly come into the discussion of this Amendment. It may be argued that in some way those who have property in tithe rent-charge are suffering from some injustice, and that that injustice ought to be removed. But how can it be argued with regard to men who are in the future to be presented to benefices that there can be any injustice in leaving matters as they are? According to the law, of this property a portion will be given to the gentlemen who occupy the offices, and another portion will go in payment of rates. If these gentlemen do not choose to take the proportion which the present law gives them, they have no need to take the office; and if they take the office, how can it be said that there is any injustice in their emoluments being limited to those attached to the office? Therefore the element of justice does not come in. But what does come in? What comes in is this—that it is desired by Her Majesty's Government to give additional endowments to these offices, so that the gentlemen who are advanced to them will find they are advanced to offices with larger endowments than they have to-day. The First Lord of the Treasury in the earlier part of the discussion made an appeal which ought to come with great weight to any man who desires to be at all fair-minded, and that was that all these old quarrels should be ended and forgotten. How can we expect that old quarrels will be ended and forgotten when Her Majesty's Government go to Dissenters, and to those who profess no religion at
758
all, and say to both, "You must and shall make a contribution for the increase of the endowments of the Church of England"?
THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is making a statement which dangerously approaches a speech applicable to the Second Reading.
MR. LEUTY: I am extremely glad it only dangerously approaches, and I will try to steer farther from that point. If this Bill be founded on justice I might argue that at least justice was not involved in the proposal which the Amendment suggests should be left out, inasmuch as it would affect gentlemen who at present have no manner of interest in the property in question. As a Nonconformist, I should be only too delighted to see these quarrels forgotten. But if those quarrels cannot be forgotten, the fault lies with those who insist on keeping them open by measures of this kind.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: With regard to this increasing difficulty of interpreting Acts of Parliament owing to "legislation by reference," I believe the Incorporated Law Society had the matter under their consideration for several sessions and sent appeals to the Government. Those appeals have been considered by the Solicitor-General, who has replied in formal words, but he is too busily engaged in endowing the clergy to attend to the far more important point of simplifying some of these Acts of Parliament. Lawyers themselves are complaining about it, and the difficulty, great as it is now, will be increased by means of an Act like this, which legislates by reference to four or five other very complicated Acts. I have another objection to this sub-section, and that is the interpretation sought to be applied to the words "owner of tithe rent-charge." I really believe that if the words of the Tithe Act of 1891 had been incorporated in this Bill it would have struck even Members on the other side of the House as being an extraordinarily unfair proposition. What is the interpretation there? It is that if the tithe rent-charge is vested in the Queen in right of her Crown, "owner" means "the Commissioners of Woods" in substitution for the Queen. What on earth have the Com-

759
missioners of Woods to do with the relief which is to be granted to the clergy in respect of rates which are pressing heavily upon them? Surely they cannot complain that they are suffering. What is the second definition? It is that where the ownership is vested in the Duke of Cornwall it means the Keeper of the Records of the Duchy of Cornwall in substitution for the Duke of Cornwall. Who is the Keeper of the Records of the Duchy of Cornwall? What are the Records of the Duchy of Cornwall? We ought to have another definition, explaining what the Duchy of Cornwall is and what its limits are. Why should a grant be made to the Keeper of the Records of the Duchy of Cornwall and the Commissioners of Woods, in a Bill for the relief of the distress of the clergy? They have absolutely nothing whatever to do with it. The whole of that definition clause is confined to the Commissioners of Woods and Forests and to the Keeper of the Records of the Duchy of Cornwall, and we are asked to make a grant to those gentlemen under the Bill.
MR. LONG: Nonsense!
MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: What does it mean, then? If it is nonsense, it is non-
sense which is introduced by the right hon. Gentleman himself.
MR. LONG: I withdraw the word "nonsense," but it was drawn from me by the statement that we propose to give this grant to these various people. The grant is expressly given, in clear terms in the Bill, in respect of tithe rent-charge attached to a benefice, and clearly such tithe rent-charge is not enjoyed by Her Majesty's Commissioners.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Then if that is the case, what on earth do these words mean? This Bill is really a very stupid Bill. We have already decided that we will pay half the rates of the clerical owners of tithe rent—
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I move that the Question be now put.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: That is the best answer the right hon. Gentleman can give me!
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 187 Noes, 107. (Division List, No. 253.)

AYES.

Allsopp, Hon. George

Chaloner, Capt. R. G. W.

Fardell, Sir T. George

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.

Arnold, Alfred

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Finch, George H.

Balcarres, Lord

Charrington, Spencer

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

Clare, Octavius Leigh

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

Clarke, Sir Edw.(Plymouth)

Fisher, William Hayes

Barnes, Frederic Gorell

Coddington, Sir William

Flower, Ernest

Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. Smith-

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Gibbons, J. Lloyd

Bartley, George C. T.

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans)

Barton, Dunbar Plunket

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Giles, Charles Tyrrell

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj.

Compton, Lord Alwyne

Gilliat, John Saunders

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol

Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W.

Godson, Sir Augustus F.

Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants

Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Ed. T. D.

Goldsworthy, Major-General

Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull

Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge

Gordon, Hon. John Edward

Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)

Goschen, Rt Hn G. J.(St Geo.'s

Biddulph, Michael

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Goschen, George J. (Sussex)

Bigwood, James

Curzon, Viscount

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Graham, Henry Robert

Bolton, Thomas Dolling

Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)

Green, Walford D. (Wed'bury

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Denny, Colonel

Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord G.

Bousfield, William Robert

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert W.

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Hanson, Sir Reginald

Brookfield, A. Montagu

Dorington, Sir John Edward

Heaton, John Henniker

Bullard, Sir Harry

Doughty, George

Henderson, Alexander

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Hermon-Hodge, R. Trotter

Butcher, John George

Doxford, William Theodore

Hill, Sir E. Stock (Bristol)

Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbys.)

Drucker, A.

Hoare, E. B. (Hampstead)

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)

Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)

Elliot, Hon A. Ralph Douglas

Hobhouse, Henry

Holland, Hon. L. R. (Bow)

Monk, Charles James

Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)

Hornby, Sir Wm. Henry

More, Robert Jasper (Shropsh.)

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Howell, William Tudor

Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn

Morrell, George Herbert

Stock, James Henry

Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-

Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

Strauss, Arthur

Jebb, R. Claverhouse

Muntz, Philip A.

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Jenkins, Sir John Jones

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Kemp, George

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Thorburn, Walter

Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J.H.

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Thornton, Percy M.

Kenyon, James

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Tollemache, Henry James.

Kimber, Henry

Penn, John

Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray

King, Sir Henry Seymour

Percy, Earl

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Lafone, Alfred

Pierpoint, Robert

Valentia, Viscount

Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)

Pilkington, R. (Lancs. Newton)

Wanklyn, James Leslie

Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry)

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent)

Llewellyn, E.H.(Somerset)

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Welby, Lieut-Col. A. C. E.

Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swans.)

Priestley, Sir W. O. (Edin.

Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm.

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

Purvis, Robert

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverpool)

Rankin, Sir James

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

Wortley, Rt. Hon.C. B.Stuart-

Lowe, Francis William

Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlepool)

Wylie, Alexander

Lucas-Shadwell, William

Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.

Wyndham, George

Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson

Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

Macartney, W. G. Ellison

Robertson, Herbert(Hackney)

Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Round, James

Young, Commander (Berks, E

Malcolm, Ian

Russell, T. W.(Tyrone)

Younger, William

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Rutherford, John

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Seton-Karr, Henry

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Sharpe, William Edward T.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Milner, Fir Frederick George

Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)

Milton, Viscount

Simeon, Sir Barrington

NOES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Harwood, George

Oldroyd, Mark

Allan, William (Gateshead)

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

O'Malley, William

Ambrose, Robert

Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H.

Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

Asher, Alexander

Holland, Wm. H. (York, W. R.

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire)

Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

Power, Patrick Joseph

Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Price, Robert John

Barlow, John Emmott

Jacoby, James Alfred

Priestley, Briggs (Yorks)

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Jones, Wm.(Carnarvonshire)

Randell, David

Billson, Alfred

Kearley, Hudson E.

Reckitt, Harold James

Broadhurst, Henry

Kilbride, Denis

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth

Robson, William Snowdon

Caldwell, James

Lambert, George

Samuel, J.(Stockton-on-Tees)

Cameron, Sir Charles(Gl'sg'w)

Lawson, Sir W.(Cumberland)

Schwann, Charles E.

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

Scott, Chas. Prestwich(Leigh)

Cawley, Frederick

Leng, Sir John

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Clough, Walter Owen

Leuty, Thomas Richmond

Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarshire

Colville, John

Lewis, John Herbert

Smith, Samuel (Flint)

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Lloyd-George, David

Souttar, Robinson

Crilly, Daniel

Logan, John William

Spicer, Albert

Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

Macaleese, Daniel

Stanhope, Hon. Philips

Dalziel, James HenrY

M'Crae, George

Steadman, William Charles

Davitt, Michael

M'Dermott, Patrick

Stevenson, Francis S.

Dillon, John

M'Ghee, Richard

Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

Donelan, Captain A.

M'Laren, Charles Benjamin

Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Doogan, P. C.

M'Leod, John

Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

Duckworth, James

Maddison, Fred.

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan

Maden, John Henry

Wallace, Robert

Evershed, Sydney

Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel)

Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)

Fenwick, Charles

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Weir, James Galloway

Flynn, James Christopher

Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

Williams, J. Carvell (Notts.)

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Gold, Charles

Moss, Samuel

Yoxall, James Henry

Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Griffith, Ellis J.

Nussey, Thomas Willans

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Haldane, Richard Burdon

O'Connor, James(Wicklow,W

Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Causton.

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm.

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Question put accordingly, "That paragraph (c), of Sub-section 1, stand part of the clause."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 184; Noes, 111. (Division List, No. 254.)

AYES.

Allsop, Hon. George

Finch, George H.

Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh)

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Morrell, George Herbert

Arnold, Alfred

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Fisher, William Hayes

Muntz, Philip A.

Balcarres, Lord

Flower, Ernest

Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds

Gibbons, J. Lloyd

Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath)

Barnes, Frederic Gorell

Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Barry, Rt Hn A H. Smith-(Hunts

Giles, Charles Tyrrell

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Bartley, George C. T.

Gilliat, John Saunders

Penn, John

Barton, Dunbar Plunket

Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.

Percy, Earl

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Goldsworthy, Major-General

Pierpoint, Robert

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H.(Bristol

Gordon, Hon. John Edward

Pilkington, R.(Lancs, Newton)

Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants.

Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull

Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (St. Geo's)

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe

Goschen, George J. (Sussex)

Priestley, Sir W. O. (Edin.)

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Biddulph, Michael

Graham, Henry Robert

Purvis, Robert

Bigwood, James

Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'y

Rankin, Sir James

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Gretton, John

Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo.

Richardson, Sir Thos. (Hartlep'l

Bousfield, William Robert

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. Wm.

Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Hanson, Sir Reginald

Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

Brookfield, A. Montagu

Henderson, Alexander

Robertson, Herbert(Hackney)

Bullard, Sir Harry

Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter

Round, James

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol)

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Butcher, John George

Hoare, Ed. Brodie (Hampstead)

Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbysh.)

Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)

Rutherford, John

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Hobhouse, Henry

Seton-Karr, Henry

Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)

Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow)

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)

Chamberlain, Rt.Hn.J.(Brim.)

Howell, William Tudor

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn

Stanley Hn. A. (Ormskirk)

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Charrington, Spencer

Jebb, Richard Claverhonse

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Chelsea, Viscount

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Stock, James Henry

Clare, Octavius Leigh

Jenkins, Sir John Jones

Strauss, Arthur

Clarke, Sir Edward(Plymouth)

Kemp, George

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Coddington, Sir William

Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H.

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Kenyon, James

Talbot, Lord E.(Chichester)

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Kimber, Henry

Thorburn, Walter

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

King Sir Henry Seymour

Thornton, Percy M.

Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W.

Lafone, Alfred

Tollemache, Henry James

Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Edw.T.D.

Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)

Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray

Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

Lea,Sir Thomas (Londonderry

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset

Valentia, Viscount

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'ns'a

Wanklyn, James Leslie

Curzon, Viscount

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E.(Kent)

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesh'm

Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chath'm

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverpool

Williams, J. Powell-(Birm.)

Denny, Colonel

Lopes, Henry Yerde Buller

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Lowe, Francis William

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

Wylie, Alexander

Dorington, Sir John Edward

Macartney, W. G. Ellison

Wyndham, George

Doughty, George

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H.

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Malcolm, Ian

Wyvill, Marmaduke d'Arcy

Doxford, William Theodore

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Young, Commander (Berks, E.)

Drucker, A.

Meysey-Thompon, Sir H. M.

Younger, William

Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

Milner, Sir Frederick George

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Fardell, Sir T. George

Milton, Viscount

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.

Monk, Charles James

Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)

More, Robert Jasp. (Shropshire)

NOES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Ambrose, Robert

Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire)

Allan, William (Gateshead)

Asher, Alexander

Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)

Barlow, John Emmott

Hutton, Alfred E.(Morley)

Power, Patrick Joseph

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Jacoby, James Alfred

Price, Robert John

Billson, Alfred

Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.

Priestley, Briggs (Yorks.)

Bolton, Thomas Dolling

Kearley, Hudson E.

Randell, David

Broadhurst, Henry

Kilbride, Denis

Reckitt, Harold James

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Kinloch, Sir J. George Smyth

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Caldwell, James

Lambert, George

Robson, William Snowdon

Cameron, Sir Charles(Glasgow

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'l'd

Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Leese, Sir J. F.(Accrington)

Schwann, Charles E.

Cawley, Frederick

Leng, Sir John

Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

Clough, Walter Owen

Leuty, Thomas Richmond

Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford)

Colville, John

Lewis, John Herbert

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Lloyd-George, David

Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire)

Crilly, Daniel

Logan, John William

Smith, Samuel (Flint)

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Macaleese, Daniel

Souttar, Robinson

Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

MacDonnell, Dr. M.A.(Qn'sC.

Spicer, Albert

Dalziel, James Henry

M'Crae, George

Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.

Davitt, Michael

M'Dermott, Patrick

Steadman, William Charles

Dillon, John

M'Ghee, Richard

Stevenson, Francis S.

Donelan, Captain A.

M'Laren, Charles Benjamin

Sullivan, Donald (Westmeath)

Doogan, P. C.

M'Leod, John

Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)

Duckworth, James

Maddison, Fred.

Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan

Maden, John Henry

Trevelyan, Charles Philips.

Evershed, Sydney

Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel)

Wallace, Robert

Fenwick, Charles

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)

Flynn, James Cristopher

Morgan, W. Pritchard(Merthyr

Weir, James Galloway

Foster, Sir Walter(Derby Co.)

Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)

Williams, John Carvell (Notts)

Gold, Charles Moss, Samuel

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Gourley, Sir E. Temperley

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Griffith, Ellis J.

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Yoxall, James Henry

Haldane, Richard Burdon

O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.)

Harcourt, Rt. Hn. Sir William

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Harwood, George

Oldroyd, Mark

Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Causton.

Hayne, Rt. Hn. Chas. Seale-

O'Malley, William

Hemphill,Rt. Hon. Charles H.

Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Mr. BALFOURrose in Ins place and claimed to move, "That the Question 'That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill' be now put."
Question put, "That the Question 'That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill' be now put."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 184; Noes, 97. (Division List, No. 255.)

AYES.

Allsopp, Hon. George

Butcher, John George

Denny, Colonel

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

Dickson-Poynder, Sir J. P.

Arnold, Alfred

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Cecil, E. (Hertford, East)

Dorington, Sir John Edward

Balcarres, Lord

Chaloner, Capt. R. G. W.

Doughty, George

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds)

Chamberlain, J. A. (Worcester)

Doxford, William Theodore

Barnes, Frederic Gorrell

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Drucker, A.

Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts

Charrington, Spencer

Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

Bartley, George C. T.

Chelsea, Viscount

Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Hart

Barton, Dunbar Plunket

Clare, Octavius Leigh

Elliot, Hon. A. R. Douglas

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj'n

Clarke, Sir E. (Plymouth)

Fardell, Sir T. George

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M.H.(Bristol

Coddington, Sir William

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Ed.

Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants.

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)

Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Finch, George H.

Bentrose, Sir Henry Howe

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Cook, F. L. (Lambeth)

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Biddulph, Michael

Cornwallis, Fiennes S. W.

Fisher, William Hayes

Bigwood, James

Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.

Flower, Ernest

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Cox, Irwin E. Bainbridge

Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Cross, A. (Glasgow)

Gibbons, J. Lloyd

Bousfield, William Robert

Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)

Gibbs, Hon. V. (St. Albans)

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Giles, Charles Tyrrell

Brookfield, A. Montagu

Curzon, Viscount

Gilliat, John Saunders

Bullard, Sir Harry

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)

Goldsworthy, Major-General

Gordon, Hon. John Edward

Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon

Lowe, Francis William

Rutherford, John

Gosechen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (St. Geo's

Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Goschen, George J. (Sussex)

Macartney, W. G. Ellison

Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)

Goulding, Edward Alfred

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Graham, Henry Robert

Malcolm, Ian

Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)

Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'y

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Stanley, Sir H. M. (Lambeth)

Gretton, John

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo.

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. Wm.

Milner, Sir Frederick George

Stock, James Henry

Hanson, Sir Riginald

Milton, Viscount

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Henderson, Alexander

Monk, Charles James

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter

More, Rt. Jasper (Shropshire)

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol)

Morgan, Hon. F.(Monm'thsh.

Thorburn, Walter

Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampste'd

Morrell, George Herbert

Thornton, Percy M.

Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)

Morton, A. H. A.(Deptford)

Tollemache, Henry James

Hobhouse, Henry

Murray, Rt. Hon. A.G.(Bute)

Tomlinson, Wm. Edw.Murray

Holland, Hon. Lionel R. (Bow

Murray, Chas. J.(Coventry)

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Valentia, Viscount

Howell, William Tudor

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Wanklyn, James Leslie

Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent)

Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-

Penn, John

Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

Jebb, Richard Claverhouse

Percy, Earl

Williams, Jos. Powell-(Birm.

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Pierpoint, Robert

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Jenkins, Sir John Jones

Pilkington, R.(Lancs, Newton)

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Wortley, Rt. Hn. C.B. Stuart-

Kenyon, James

Priestley, Sir W. Overend (Edin.

Wylie, Alexander

Kimber, Henry

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Wyndham, George

King, Sir Henry Seymour

Purvis, Robert

Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

Lafone, Alfred

Rankin, Sir James

Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)

Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

Young, Commander (Berks, E.)

Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry)

Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlepool)

Younger, William

Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset)

Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Mattltew W.

Llewellyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'ns'a

Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

Round, James

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverpool

Royds, Clement Molyneux

NOES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Allen, William (Gateshead)

Hutton, Alfred E.(Morley)

Power, Patrick Joseph

Ambrose, Robert

Jacoby, James Alfred

Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

Asher, Alexander

Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)

Randell, David

Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire)

Kearley, Hudson E.

Reckitt, Harold James

Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)

Lambert, George

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Barlow, John Emmott

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land

Robson, William Snowdon

Billson, Alfred

Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

Samuel, J.(Stockton on Tees)

Broadhurst, Henry

Leng, Sir John

Schwann, Charles E.

Caldwell, James

Leuty, Thomas Richmond

Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

Cameron, Sir Charles(Glasgow

Lewis, John Herbert

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Champbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Lloyd-George, David

Shaw, Thomas(Hawick B.)

Cawley, Frederick

Logan, John William

Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire)

Clough, Walter Owen

MacAleese, Daniel

Smith, Samuel (Flint)

Colville, John

MacDonnell, Dr. M A (Queen's C

Souttar, Robinson

Condon, Thomas Joseph

M'Crae, George

Spicer, Albert

Crilly, Daniel

M'Dermott, Patrick

Steadman, William Charles

Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

M'Gee, Richard

Stevenson, Francis S.

Dalziel, James Henry

M'Laren, Charles Benjamin

Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

Davitt, Michael

M'Leod, John

Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)

Dillon, John

Maddison, Fred.

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

Donelan, Captain A.

Maden, John Henry

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Doogan, P. C.

Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel)

Wallace, Robert

Duckworth, James

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.)

Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan)

Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merth.)

Weir, James Galloway

Fenwick, Charles

Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Flynn, James Christopher

Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

Williams, John Carvell (Notts.

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Yoxall, James Henry

Gold, Charles

O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.

Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Causton.

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Oldroyd, Mark

Harwood, George

O'Malley, William

Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

Question put accordingly, "That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 184; Noes, 101. (Division List, No. 256.)

AYES.

Allsopp, Hon. George

Fardell, Sir T. George

Milton, Viscount

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.

Monk, Charles James

Arnold, Alfred

Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)

More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

Atkinson, Right Hon. John

Finch, George H.

Morgan, Hn. F.(Monmouthsh.

Balcarres, Lord

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Morrell, George Herbert

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(Man.)

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

Balfour, Rt. Hn. G.W.(Leeds)

Fisher, William Hayes

Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

Barnes, Frederic Gorell

Flower, Ernest

Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)

Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(H'nts)

Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Bartley, George C. T.

Gibbons, J. Lloyd

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Barton, Dunbar Plunket

Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Bathurst, Hon. Allen B.

Giles, Charles Tyrrell

Penn, John

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Brstl.)

Gilliat, John Saunders

Percy, Earl

Beach, W. W. B. (Hants)

Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.

Pierpoint, Robert

Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull

Goldsworthy, Major-General

Pilkington, R.(Lancs,Newton)

Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe

Gordon, Hon. John Edward

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Bigwood, James

Goschen, Rt Hn G J (St George's)

Priestley, Sir W. Overend (Edin.

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Goschen, George J. (Sussex)

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Purvis, Robert

Bousfield, William Robert

Graham, Henry Robert

Rankin, Sir James

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

Brookfield, A. Montagu

Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)

Richardson, Sir T.(Hartlepool)

Bullard, Sir Harry

Gretton, John

Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George

Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson

Butcher, John George

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. W.

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derby.)

Hanson, Sir Reginald

Round, James

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Henderson, Alexander

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)

Hermon-Hodge, R. Trotter

Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

Hill, Sir E. S. (Bristol)

Rutherford, John

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

Hoare, E. B. (Hampstead)

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)

Sidebottom, T.H. (Stalybridge

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Hobhouse, Henry

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Charrington, Spencer

Holland, Hon. L. R. (Bow)

Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)

Chelsea, Viscount

Hornby, Sir W. Henry

Stanley, Sir H. M. (Lambeth)

Clare, Octavius Leigh

Howell, William Tudor

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Clarke, Sir Edward (Plymouth

Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M.

Coddington, Sir William

Hutchinson, Capt. G.W.Grice-

Stock, James Henry

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Jebb, Richard Claverhouse

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Shurt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Jenkins, Sir John Jones

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Compton, Lord Alwyne

Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir J. H.

Thorburn, Walter

Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)

Kenyon, James

Thornton, Percy M.

Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W.

King, Sir Henry Seymour

Tollemache, Henry James

Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.

Lafone, Alfred

Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray

Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge

Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)

Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry)

Valentia, Viscount

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset)

Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E. (Kent)

Curzon, Viscount

Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swans'a

Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Williams, J. Powell- (Birm.)

Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)

Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Denny, Colonel

Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverpool)

Wortley, Rt. Hn.C. B. Stuart-

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

Wylie, Alexander

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Lowe, Francis William

Wyndham, George

Dorington, Sir John Edward

Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H.

Doughty, George

Macartney, W. G. Ellison

Wyvill, Marmaduke d'Arcy

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Young, Commander (Berks, E.)

Doxford, William Theodore

Malcolm, Ian

Younger, William

Drucker, A.

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

Milner, Sir Frederick George

NOES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Atherley-Jones, L.

Billson, Alfred

Allan, William (Gateshead)

Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire)

Broadhurst, Henry

Ambrose, Robert

Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)

Caldwell, James

Asher, Alexander

Barlow, John Emmott

Cameron, Sir Charles (Glasgow

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland)

Randell, David

Cawley, Frederick

Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)

Reckitt, Harold James

Clough, Walter Owen

Leng, Sir John

Roberts, J. H. (Denbighs)

Colville, John

Leuty, Thomas Richmond

Robson, William Snowdon

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Lewis, John Herbert

Samuel, J. (Stockton on Tees)

Crilly, Daniel

Lloyd-George, David

Schwann, Charles E.

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Logan, John William

Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

Macaleese, Daniel

Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford)

Dalziel, James Henry

MacDonnell, Dr M. A (Queen's C

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Davitt, Michael

M'Crae, George

Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire)

Dillon, John

M'Dermott, Patrick

Smith, Samuel (Flint)

Donelan, Captain A.

M'Ghee, Richard

Souttar, Robinson

Doogan, P. C.

M'Laren, Charles Benjamin

Spicer, Albert

Duckworth, James

M'Leod, John

Steadman, William Charles

Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan)

Maddison, Fred.

Stevenson, Francis S.

Fenwick, Charles

Maden, John Henry

Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

Flynn, James Christopher

Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel)

Thomas, Alfred (Glam., E.)

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen

Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr

Trevelyan, Charles Phillips

Gold, Charles

Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

Wallace, Robert

Gourley, Sir Edward Temperley

Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)

Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Weir, James Galloway

Harwood, George

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.)

Williams, John Carvell (Notts)

Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Oldroyd, Mark

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Jacoby, James Alfred

O'Malley, William

Yoxall, James Henry

Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

Kearley, Hudson E.

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

kilbride, Denis

Power, Patrick Joseph

Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Causton.

Lambert, George

Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

Clause 3:—
MR. DALZIEL: The Amendment I have to move is a perfectly innocent one, and in ordinary circumstances I am certain it would have been accepted by the Government.
Attention called to the fact that forty Members were not present; House counted, and, forty Members being found present:
MR. DALZIEL: I was saying that my Amendment is a perfectly innocent one, and under ordinary circumstances I should have hoped that it would have been accepted. But I am afraid the attitude of the Government towards all Amendments, innocent and uninnocent, gives me little hope that I shall be any more successful than some of my colleagues have been with their Amendments. The object of my Amendment is to alter the title of the Bill from "Tithe Rent-charge (Rates) Act, 1899," to "Tithe Rent-charge (Rates Relief) Act, 1899." That is an Amendment which I think is obvious on the face of it. The Solicitor-General will agree that the title of an Act of Parliament should, as far as possible, convey the meaning of the Act and give it a particular identification from all other Acts dealing with the same
772
subject. We have already other Acts dealing with tithe—I do not know how many—and it would be an advantage if anyone wished to turn it up and refer to it, so as to understand its meaning, if the word I have suggested were inserted. I think that the clergymen who gain by this Bill will not deny that they are obtaining relief, and the Government will not deny that they are giving the clergy relief. I am sure the Amendment will not do the Bill any harm, and it better expresses the object of the Bill than the present title. I hope the hon. and learned Member the Solicitor-General will accept the addition of the word "Relief," and make it unnecessary to have further discussion.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 3, line 1, after the word 'Rates,' to insert the word 'Relief.'"—(Dr. Dalziel.)
Question proposed, "That the word 'Relief' be there inserted."
SIR R. B. FINLAY: I know how anxious the hon. Gentleman is to save the time of the Committee, and it gives me some pleasure in these circumstances to say at once that I am not able to accede to his request. He said that his Amendment was an innocent one, but innocence

773
is not quite enough to induce its acceptance. It is necessary that there should be something in the Amendment. I am quite unable to see why the title of the measure should be amended in the direction desired. It is not usual to go into detail in the title if it sufficiently indicates the general subject dealt with. That subject is sufficiently indicated in the title, "Tithe Rent-charge (Rates) Act, 1899," and therefore I cannot recommend the acceptance of the Amendment.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: As another Member anxious to save the time of the Committee, I wish to support the Amendment of my hon. friend. The hon. and learned Solicitor-General says that the mere fact of innocence is not enough for the acceptance of an Amendment; but earlier in the evening the only argument he advanced for the retention of some words in the Bill was that they would do no harm. But that is not my argument in favour of the Amendment. I think the title of a Bill ought to indicate clearly the nature of the Bill, so that the public should know what really its object is. If anyone looked at the title of the Bill as it stands, he would think that it had something to do with rating. It has nothing whatever to do with rating. I am sure the hon. and learned Solicitor-General will admit that. It does not affect rating; it does not touch assessment; and there is nothing about valuation in it. If the recommendations of the hon. member for Stroud and those who co-operated with him on the Royal Commission had been adopted, and changes had been made in the rating of the clergy, I quite admit that this might have been a very fair description of the Bill. But what is the nature of the transaction? The rating of the clergy is not touched; the rates of the clergy are not touched; everything is to remain exactly as it is, and only a certain amount of relief is to be given to the clergy. If you want a simple, condensed description of what the nature and character of the Bill is, it is "Tithe Rent-charge (Rates Relief) Bill." So far as the popular mind is concerned it is really a Bill granting an addition to the endowment of the Church of England. A better description would have been "a Bill for making an addition to the stipends of the clergy," for its object is really a vote by Parliament to add £87,000 a year to the salaries or stipends
774
of the clergy of the Established Church. I think the Committee ought to characterise this Bill according to the real nature of the transaction embodied in it. Why should the Government be afraid of it unless they are ashamed of this transaction? Why not call it by its proper name? They are actually afraid to put in a condensed form the character of the transaction.
MR. BROADHURST: I join in the appeal to the Solicitor-General to be reasonable. The Government have not up to the present exercised much reason in regard to the conduct of this Bill. I am bound to admit that there have been Amendments which I have supported which have perhaps been not quite so sensible as this. I cannot conceive anything more just than to ask that the Bill should be described in language in harmony with its nature. This is essentially an "Outdoor Relief Bill." Had I been consulted, I should have suggested as a description, "Tithe Rent-charge Out-door Relief Bill." Had we innocents, who are not favoured with a knowledge of the law, not been joining in the discussion of the Bill, we should not have known the meaning of it from its title, which is absolutely misleading. It is a strong thing to say that the Government gave it this title in order to mislead. I should not like to be so offensive as to suggest that; but many people would say so, and I am bound to admit that they would not be indulging in great inaccuracy. I think I know what the Solicitor-General is after; it is to see that nothing is done, or undone, that will necessitate a Report stage. I really think we ought to have one small concession in the demands of reason, truth, and justice before we part with this Bill.
MR. D. A. THOMAS: I think this is an Amendment which the hon. Gentlemen opposite might very well accept. It is very reasonable, and the arguments on which my hon. friend based it must commend themselves to the Committee. I hope my hon. friend, unless he gets a far more satisfactory reply than he has done, will press the Amendment to a Division. The hon. and learned Member opposite has frankly acknowledged that we on this side of the House have no desire to prolong proceedings, and for my part, although the closure has been moved

775
against me more than once, I have not put a single Amendment on the Paper that has not been in order. Well, the hon. and learned Member said it was not enough for an Amendment to be childlike and innocent. I do not know what he meant; but I remember his Leader coming down here and saying that on certain matters he was a child. In this matter we are children, and I do not think the hon. and learned Gentlemen ought to take any exception to us on that ground. The title of the Bill as proposed by the hon. and learned Member is distinctly misleading. It says, "This Act may be cited as the Tithe Rent-charge (Rates) Act, 1899." After the discussions we have had, who can say in truth that that is an accurate description of the Bill? It only applies to one section of tithe rent-charge, to the tithe rent-charge attached to a benefice, and I say that the title is a distinct misnomer.
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! That is not the point before the Committee. The point is the word "relief."
MR. D. A. THOMAS: It is not a relief to the lay impropriator, or to the tithe rent-charge belonging to colleges and schools. But even as it is, the word "relief" will make the title more appropriate to the character of the Bill.
MR. NUSSEY: I really think that this additional word "relief" does describe the purpose of the Bill more accurately than the description the Government have adopted. We are told the true principle underlying the Bill is the principle of justice, and that it was introduced in order to do justice to the clergy who have paid too much rates. I cannot see that the addition of this word "relief" interferes with the principle of justice. Then we are told that the Bill was introduced for personal services.
THE CHAIRMAN: This is not the opportunity for reviewing all the Debates.
MR. NUSSEY: I bow to your ruling, Mr. Lowther. I would like to show that this word "relief" more accurately describes the character of the Bill than the Government in its infinite wisdom—
THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is now repeating arguments which have already been used.
MR. NUSSEY: I will not go beyond that. The actual interpolation of the word "relief" does not cast any slur whatever on the clergy. I am sure my hon. friend would not have moved it if he thought the word cast any slur on the clergy at all. The object is more accurately to convey to the electors at large the real object of the Bill, and as such I hope the Government will accept it.
MR. SAMUEL EVANS: Whenever the Government do not like the real object of a Bill to be exposed they always adopt a misnomer of a title. For instance, they introduce a "Rating Machinery Bill." But it is not a Bill for rating of machinery, but for the exemption of machinery from rating. I do not like the title of the Bill, or even the title, "The Clergy Relief Bill." To paraphrase a classical quotation, "How unhappy could I be with either." But by any other name this Bill would be to me equally unsweet.
MR. MADDISON: I have no legal knowledge, and therefore it is almost presumption for me to follow the Solicitor-General, but I do not understand the meaning of the word "rates" as introduced.
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! That is not the Question. The Question is that the words "rates relief" should be inserted.
MR. MADDISON: I think the word "relief" should certainly be inserted, because unless you have something to indicate the character of the Bill, you will have a peculiar anomaly. Take the City of Sheffield. The title, "Tithe Rent Charge (Rates) Bill," would be entirely misleading to that great Yorkshire city, because the rates there do not apply to tithe rent-charge at all. There is not in that city a single penny of tithe rent-charge, although of course, as my hon. friend reminds me, the inhabitants of that city will have to pay. That is part of the policy of the Bill that I am not allowed to go into, and I do not wish to appear to do so. My only point is that this Bill is misleading, because it gives a title that has no application to certain districts of the country. Therefore, if the word relief, or if some other better word than relief, could be inserted in the title, it would

777
give not merely an innocent appearance to the Bill, but an accurate description to the Bill itself. I certainly do think, while I cannot agree with the hon. Member for Leicester that this is the most important Amendment moved, that it is a substantial Amendment, that is to say, if the Government desire that the description of the Bill shall give any indication of its contents. The chances are that the Government, wise in their day and generation, do not want this to be done, but still I think that the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill ought really to favourably consider either the actual word moved, or some other similar word in order to give the Bill an accurate description.
MR. CARVELL WILLIAMS: There is one provision in this Bill to which the
proposed title of the Bill certainly is not applicable. The second sub-section of Clause 2 differs from all the other provisions of the Bill in this respect, that other provisions of the Bill relate to clergymen whose incomes are dependent upon the receipt of tithe rent-charge; but Subsection 2 of Clause 2 relates to quite another—
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! That part of the Bill has been passed, and the hon. Member cannot refer back to it.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 105; Noes, 175. (Division List, No. 257.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Goddard, Daniel Ford

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Allan, William (Gateshead)

Gold, Charles

Oldroyd, Mark

Ambrose, Robert

Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley

O'Malley, William

Asher, Alexander

Hazell, Walter

Palmer, George Wm.(Reading

Austin, Sir J. (Yorkshire)

Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)

Horniman, Frederick John

Power, Patrick Joseph

Barlow, John Emmott

Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Randell, David

Billson, Alfred

Jacoby, James Alfred

Reckitt, Harold James

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez Ed.

Rickett, J. Compton

Burns, John

Kilbride, Denis

Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

Caldwell, James

Labouchere, Henry

Samuel, J. (Stockton on Tees)

Cameron, Sir C. (Glasgow)

Langley, Batty

Schwann, Charles E.

Cameron, Robert (Durham)

Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Leng, Sir John

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Causton, Richard Knight

Leuty, Thomas Richmond

Smith, Samuel (Flint)

Clark, Dr. G. B.(Caithness-sh)

Lewis, John Herbert

Souttar, Robinson

Clough, Walter Owen

Macaleese, Daniel

Spicer, Albert

Colville, John

MacDonnell, Dr. M. A. (Q'n's C.

Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.

Condon, Thomas Joseph

M'Crae, George

Steadman, William Charles

Crilly, Daniel

M'Dermott, Patrick

Stevenson, Francis S.

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

M'Ghee, Richard

Stuart, James (Shoreditch)

Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

M'Kenna, Reginald

Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

Davies, M. V.- (Cardigan)

M'Laren, Charles Benjamin

Thomas, Alfred(Glamorgan, E.

Davitt, Michael

M'Leod, John

Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr)

Dillon, John

Maddison, Fred.

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Donelan, Captain A.

Maden, John Henry

Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)

Doogan, P. C.

Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand

Weir, James Galloway

Duckworth, James

Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel)

Whiteley, George (Stockport)

Dunn, Sir William

Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan)

Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr

Williams, John Carvell (Notts.

Evershed, Sydney

Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Fenwick, Charles

Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)

Yoxall, James Henry

Flynn, James Christopher

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Foster, Sir W. (Derby Co.)

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Mr. Dalziel and Mr. Broadhurst.

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John

O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.

NOES.

Allsopp, Hon. George

Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W.(Leeds)

Bathurst, Hon. A. B.

Archdale, E. Mervyn

Banbury, Frederick George

Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull

Arnold, Alfred

Barnes, Frederic Gorell

Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Balcarres, Lord

Bartley, George C. T.

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

Barton, Dunbar Plunket

Biddulph, Michael

Bigwood, James

Giles, Charles Tyrrell

Morrison, Walter

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Goldsworthy, Major-General

Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

Bousfield, William Robert

Gordon, Hon. John Edward

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Brookfield, A. Montagu

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Bullard, Sir Harry

Goulding, Edward Alfred

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Graham, Henry Robert

Pierpoint, Robert

Butcher, John George

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Pilkington, R. (Lancs., Newton)

Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbysh.)

Green, Walford D (Wednesbury

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Gretton, John

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

Gull, Sir Cameron

Priestley, Sir W. O.(Edin.)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord George

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

Hanbury, Rt Hon. Robert Wm.

Purvis, Robert

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Hanson, Sir Reginald

Rankin, Sir James

Charrington, Spencer

Helder, Augustus

Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

Chelsea, Viscount

Henderson, Alexander

Richards, Henry Charles

Clare, Octavius Leigh

Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)

Clarke, Sir Edw. (Plymouth)

Hill, Sir Edward Stock (Bristol)

Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson

Coddington, Sir William

Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead)

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Hobhouse, Henry

Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Holland, Hon. Lionel R. (Bow)

Rutherford, John

Compton, Lord Alwyne

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Savory, Sir Joseph

Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)

Howell, William Tudor

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W.

Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn

Sidebottom, T. Harrop (Stalybr.

Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Edw.T.D.

Jebb, Richard Claverhouse

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Stanley, Sir Hy. M. (Lambeth)

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Jenkins, Sir John Jones

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Stock, James Henry

Curzon, Viscount

Kemp, George

Strauss, Arthur

Dalkeith, Earl of

Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Kenyon, James

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chath'm

Kimber, Henry

Thorburn, Walter

Denny, Colonel

King, Sir Henry Seymour

Thornton, Percy M.

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Lafone, Alfred

Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

Disraeli, Conings by Ralph

Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Dorington, Sir John Edward

Lea, Sir Thomas (Londonderry

Valentia, Viscount

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Leighton, Stanley

Ward, Hon. Robt. A. (Crewe)

Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S.

Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset)

Warde, Lt.-Col. C.E. (Kent)

Doxford, William Theodore

Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swans.

Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E.

Drucker, A.

Lockwood, Lieut.-Colonel A. R.

Williams, Jos. Powell-(Birm.).

Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Fardell, Sir T. George

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverpool

Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

Wylie, Alexander

Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)

Lowe, Francis William

Wyndham, George

Finch, George H.

Lowles, John

Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Lucas-Shadwell, William

Young, Commander (Berks, E.

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Macartney, W. G. Ellison

Younger, William

Fisher, William Hayes

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Flower, Ernest

Melville, Beresford Valentine

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Foster, Harry S.(Suffolk)

Monk, Charles James

Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Gibbons, J. Lloyd

More, R. Jasper (Shropshire)

Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans

Morrell, George Herbert

Question put, "That Clause 3 stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 184; Noes, 118. (Division List No. 258.)

AYES.

Allsopp, Hon. George

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol

Butcher, John George

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Arnold, Alfred

Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe

Cavendish, V. C.W. (Derbysh.

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Balcarres, Lord

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

Biddulph, Michael

Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W.(Leeds

Bigwood, James

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.

Banbury, Frederick George

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc

Barnes, Frederic Gorell

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Barry, Rt Hn A H. Smith-(Hunts

Bousfield, William Robert

Charrington, Spencer

Bartley, George C. T.

Brookfield, A. Montagu

Chelsea, Viscount

Barton, Dunbar Plunket

Bullard, Sir Harry

Clare, Octavins Leigh

Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Clarke, Sir Edward (Plym'th)

Coddington, Sir William

Hanson, Sir Reginald

Muray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Helder, Augustus

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Henderson, Alexander

Pierpoint, Robert

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton)

Compton, Lord Alwyne

Hill, Sir Edward Stock(Bristol)

Platt- Higgins, Frederick

Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)

Hoare, Edw Brodie (Hampstead

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W.

Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)

Priestley, Sir W. Overend (Edin.

Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.

Hobhouse, Henry

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

Holland, Hon. Lionel R. (Bow)

Purvis, Robert

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Rankin, Sir James

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Houston, R. P.

Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

Curzon, Viscount

Howell, William Tudor

Richards, Henry Charles

Dalkeith, Earl of

Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn

Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlepool)

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-

Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. T.

Davies, Sir H. D.(Chatham)

Jebb, Richard Claverhouse

Robertson, H. (Hackney)

Denny, Colonel

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Dickson-Poynder, Sir J. P.

Jenkins, Sir John Jones

Russell, T. w. (Tyrone)

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Rutherford, John

Dorington, Sir John Edward

Kemp, George

Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. E. J.

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H.

Savory, Sir Joseph

Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S.

Kenyon, James

Sharpe, W. E. T.

Doxford, William Theodore

Kimber, Henry

Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)

Drucker, A.

King, Sir Henry Seymour

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

Lafone, Alfred

Stanley, Sir H. M. (Lambeth)

Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

Lawson, John Grant (Yorks)

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Fardell, Sir T. George

Lea, Sir T. (Londonberry)

Stock, James Henry

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edwd.

Leighton, Stanley

Strauss, Arthur

Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)

Llewellyn, E. H. (Somerset)

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Finch, George H.

Llewelyn. Sir D.-(Swansea)

Sturt, Hon. H. Napier

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

Sutherland, Sir Thomas

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Thorburn, Walter

Fisher, William Hayes

Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

Thornton, Percy M.

Flower, Ernest

Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverpool)

Tomlinson, W. E.Murray

Foster, Harry S.(Suffolk)

Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Gibbons, J. Lloyd

Lowe, Francis William

Valentia, Viscount

Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

Lowles, John

Ward, Hon. R. A. (Crewe)

Giles, Charles Tyrrell

Lucas-Shadwell, William

Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E. (Kent)

Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

Macartney, W. G. Ellison

Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E.

Goldsworthy, Major-General

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Williams, J. Powell-(Birm.)

Gordon, Hon. John Edward

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Willox, Sir J. Archibald

Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon

Milton, Viscount

Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Monk, Charles James

Wylie, Alexander

Graham, Henry Robert

More, R. Jasper (Shropshire)

Wyndham, George

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Morrell, George Herbert

Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

Green, Walford D (Wednesbury

Morrison, Walter

Young, Commander (Berks, E.)

Gretton, John

Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

Younger, William

Gull, Sir Cameron

Muntz, Philip A.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George

Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G.(Bute)

Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Hanbury, Rt. Hn. RobertWm.

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

NOES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Hayne, Rt. Hn. Chas. Seale-

Allan, William (Gateshead)

Crilly, Daniel

Hazell, Walter

Ambrose, Robert

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Hedderwick, Thomas C. H.

Asher, Alexander

Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H.

Atherley-Jones, L.

Dalziel, James Henry

Horniman, Frederick John

Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire)

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)

Davitt, Michael

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Barlow, John Emmott

Dillon, John

Jacoby, James Alfred

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire

Donelan, Captain A.

Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez E.

Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

Doogan, P. C.

Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)

Billson, Alfred

Duckworth, James

Kilbride, Denis

Broadhurst, Henry

Dunn, Sir William

Labouchere, Henry

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan)

Lambert, George

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Evershed, Sydney

Langley, Batty

Burns, John

Fenwick, Charles

Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

Caldwell, James

Flynn, James Christopher

Leng, Sir John

Cameron, Sir Charles(Glasgow)

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

Leuty, Thomas Richmond

Cameron, Robert (Durham)

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Lewis, John Herbert

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Gold, Charles

Lloyd-George, David

Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.)

Gourley, Sir E. Temperley

Logan, John William

Clough, Walter Owen

Haldane, Richard Burdon

Macaleese, Daniel

Colville, John

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir W.

MacDonnell, Dr. M. A. (Qn's C.

M'Crae, George

O'Malley, William

Steadman, William Charles

M'Dermott, Patrick

Palmer, Sir Charles M.(Durham

Stevenson, Francis S.

M'Ghee, Richard

Palmer, George Wm.(Reading)

Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

M'Kenna, Reginald

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)

M'Laren, Charles Benjamin

Power, Patrick Joseph

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

M'Leod, John

Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Maddison, Fred

Randell, David

Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.

Maden, John Henry

Reckitt, Harold James

Weir, James Galloway

Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand

Rickett, J. Compton

Whiteley, George (Stockport)

Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel)

Roberts, John H. (Denbighsh.)

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen

Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

Williams, John Carvell (Notts.

Morgan, W. P. (Merthyr)

Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

Schwann, Charles E.

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

Yoxall, James Henry

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Smith, Samuel (Flint)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Souttar, Robinson

Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. Causton.

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Spicer, Albert

Oldroyd, Mark

Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.

Clause 4:—
MR. LEWIS: On a point of order I wish to ask whether, if I move the Amendment which stands in my name, it will have the effect of cutting out the Amendment which stands in the name of the hon. Member for Merthyr, which comes next, or whether the hon. Member's Amendment will be saved when you put the Question?
THE CHAIRMAN: I will put the Amendment in such a way as to safeguard the hon. Member's Amendment.
MR. HERBERT LEWIS: Then I beg to move the Amendment which stands in my name. The effect of the Amendment will be practically to postpone the coming into effect of the Bill until the Royal Commission has reported, and until the Agricultural Rates Act has ceased to exist. The whole subject of local rating will then have to be considered, and a decision applicable to the whole subject can be taken. If this Act is postponed in its operation until the Agricultural Rates Act has expired the country will have an opportunity of thoroughly considering it. If it is a just measure it will, of course, remain, with the assent of the country, upon the Statute Book; if it is an unjust measure, the country will have an opportunity of considering the question of the incidence of local taxation as a whole. I think that everyone admits that a radical reform of local taxation is necessary, and that that question ought to be considered and dealt with as a whole. But the object of my Amendment is to enable the question to be considered as a whole. The grievance—or the alleged grievance—which this
784
Bill has been introduced to remedy has existed for at least 300 years, and we are asked to consider and satisfactorily settle the whole question in three weeks. All I ask in my Amendment is that the matter shall stand over for two years, so that after 300 years the country may have the opportunity of considering whether it is right to make the change or not. What is the use of bringing in a Bill of this sort, the effect of which will only be to last two years? It leaves the clergy themselves in a state of uncertainty. A man receives an addition to his income, and he puts up his expenditure accordingly. At the end of two years it is possible that his income may have to come down again. Under these circumstances it is surely very unwise for the House, following the lead of the hon. and learned Member for Stroud, to plunge into these interim Reports and dangerous experiments without having any clear or adequate notion whether the country in two years' time will sanction the Bill and make it a permanent measure or not. If justice—and this is supposed to be the keynote of this Bill—if justice is to be enacted at all, then let it be enacted for all time and after full consideration, and not after two or three weeks' discussion. I think I have said enough—I do not want to detain the Committee at this hour of the evening—I think I have said enough to show that my Amendment is one of a reasonable character. I know that the Government have made up their minds to reject every Amendment that may be moved, however reasonable. I do not think that they will improve the respect which the country—or some small section of the country—may entertain for this Bill by the action

785
that they are taking. What are we here for? Are we here to discuss Amendments or not? Why did not the Minister for Agriculture or the Leader of the House tell us: "You may discuss this Bill if you like for a week or a fortnight or a month—"
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! That is not relevant to the subject.
MR. LEWIS: I was only proceeding to say with regard to this particular Amendment that I had not any very great hope that it would be accepted. Still, at the same time I commend it to the attention of the Government and of the Committee, in the hope that at the eleventh hour it may be accepted.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 2, line 3, to leave out from the word 'shall,' to the word 'said,' in line 9, and insert the words, 'not come into operation until the expiration of the.'"—(Mr. Herbert Lewis.)
Question proposed, "That the words of the clause to 'any,' in line 4, stand part of the clause."
MR. D. A. THOMAS: Upon a point of order, I would suggest to you, Sir, that in putting this Amendment you should save not only one which I have upon the Paper, but one which I have handed in in manuscript, the object of which is to prevent the Government from passing this Bill within a stated period.
THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member's Amendment does not come in until line 7.
MR. LONG: The Amendment proposed by the hon. Gentleman is no doubt a reasonable one from his point of view. We were foolish enough to believe that by following the precedent of the Agricultural Rating Act of 1896, we should have received the approbation of the hon. Member opposite and his support in favour of restricted legislation. He does not appear however, to agree to the principle of limiting the Act to two years. The effect of the Amendment would be that at the end of two years the Bill would become permanent in its operation. This proposal appears to be carrying the Bill further than we desire.
786
The Bill has been introduced as a temporary measure on the recommendation of the Royal Commissioners, and we propose, pending a final settlement of the whole question of local taxation, that a hardship which presses with particular severity on one class of the community should be dealt with in a temporary but effective measure, and I hope the Committee, will reject this very insidious proposal. I suggest to hon. Members, in the interest of the Committee as a whole, that the discussion should be mainly directed to the important and substantial Amendments on the Paper, rather than to those which raise minor questions of interest.
MR. T. P. O'CONNOR: Will the right hon. Gentleman accept any?
MR. LONG: My suggestion was chiefly made in the interest of hon. Members opposite, and on the presumption that they had a real interest in the Amendments appearing in their names on the Paper. If they have no real interest in them, but merely move them to occupy the time of the Committee, then obviously the closure will meet our purpose. I ask the Committee to decide against this Amendment.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: The right hon. Gentleman has made an appeal to us that we shall proceed to discuss the Amendments which appear on the Paper, and no doubt we shall do so. We have plenty of time to do that before the end of the session; it can be done on Monday. The clergy are not in such a hurry to get ther money as all that, and even if they were, there is no rate until September, so there is no need for us to hurry. The right. hon. Gentleman seems to be very much afraid that, if he accepts my hon. friend's Amendment, after two years' consideration, Parliament would not put this Bill into operation. But the right hon. Gentleman says, "Why not do as you did in the Agricultural Rating Act? You then appealed to us to make it only for five years, and then a Royal Commission was appointed to inquire into the whole matter of taxation." That was the mistake which we made in dealing with the Agricultural Rating Act—first of all in voting the money allocated by it on the expectation that the Royal Commission would consider the question relegated to it. But the Commission has not done

787
so. And what we now say in respect of this Bill is, "You shall have the money after you have considered the question, but not before. We shall not give you the money for two years."
MR. T. P. O'CONNOR: I understood the right hon. Gentleman to make a declaration which I am sorry he did not consider earlier, and I should like to ask him, and we on this side of the House would like to know, the precise meaning of his declaration that these Amendments should be discussed shortly, in order that we might consider the more important Amendments. That declaration is extremely reasonable, and we only now desire to know which of what he considers the more important Amendments he is prepared to accept.
MR. LONG: I am afraid the hon. Gentleman entirely misunderstood me. I made the suggestion in the interests of hon. Gentlemen opposite. I thought they would discriminate between them. If they are all important, our position becomes much easier.
MR. T. P. O'CONNOR: If the right hon. Gentleman means that if we concentrate our attention on certain interesting and important Amendments we would have some chance of getting even two or three Amendments accepted, there may be some reason for listening to the suggestion; but if, on the other hand, when those Amendments have had the attention of the Committee, the right hon. Gentleman is going to meet them with the same non possumus, we should only be wasting his time and our own.
THE CHAIRMAN: I would respectfully invite the Committee to return to the consideration of the Amendment.
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: The right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill having made a proposal, I think the Committee ought to be allowed really to understand the nature of the offer that has been made. What I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say was, that there are a certain number of Amendments, some of which are more important than others, and that if we economised the time on the less important, and devoted it to the more important Amendments, that would be far the better
788
course. The Committee would be glad to know what amount of time they will be allowed to apportion between the various Amendments.
MR. LONGrose.
THE CHAIRMAN,speaking amid cries of "Long," again said: I would again respectfully invite the Committee to consider the Amendment before the House.
MR. T. P. O'CONNOR: Before you put the Question, Sir, I must again appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to say what he meant.
THE CHAIRMAN: That is not relevant to the question before the Committee. I have permitted the hon. Gentleman the Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool and the right hon. Gentleman the member for West Monmouth to make statements because the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill made a statement, but I think the Committee ought to return again to the consideration of the Amendment.
MR. DALZIEL: I propose to return to the Amendment. I do not think the case put forward for the Amendment has been answered by the right hon. Gentleman. The question I was going to put is this: If an injustice exists now and has existed for some time, and if it is the intention of the Bill to remedy that injustice, why is the Government only going to remedy it for two years? Why does not the right hon. Gentleman take the responsibility of making this a permanent measure? It seems to me here is a case for the contention of my hon. friend. We are to have a Report of the Commission, but no one can tell when. I always notice that, when once a Commission is appointed, if the secretary draws a good salary, it takes a very long time to report. Let us wait for the Report of this Commission, and when we have the full facts we shall know how to deal with them.
MR. MADDISON: I support the Amendment because it delays the passing of this measure until the Royal Commission reports, and the Agricultural Rating Act comes to an end. Although the Bill has only been under discussion for two or

789
three days there are already signs that it is viewed with great dissatisfaction in the country. The County Council of the West Riding, containing a majority I believe of gentlemen who hold views similar to those of the hon. Gentlemen opposite, have taken very strong exception to one of the most important provisions in the Bill, and the City Council of Sheffield, where parties are evenly balanced, passed a resolution with only three or four dissentients condemning the Bill. I consider the Amendment is a reasonable one, and I think it is unreasonable on the part of the Government to oppose all these Amendments as they have done, and I think they are doing themselves a great injustice in attempting to rush this Bill.
MR. LAMBERT: I should like to know whether this Bill is on all fours with the Agricultural Rating Bill of 1896. Will it apply to the new works of the parish councils, which the Agricultural Rating Act did not?
SIR R. B. FINLAY: It will apply to all rates without exception.
MR. LABOUCHERE: This Bill has been sprung upon us, and neither we nor the country have had sufficient time to consider its effect. My hon. friend's proposition is that it should not become operative for two years, and that after that time it should become permanent. If I were perfectly certain we should win the next General Election—I think we shall, but we can never be absolutely certain on these matters—I should support that, but if we lose the General Election we shall have this Bill for another six years, and the question is whether we had not better lose the money for two years and then let the Act lapse, or whether we should pay the money permanently.
LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: Before the Question is put I wish to ask, seeing that the Agricultural Rating Act, 1896, intentionally or not, does not apply to the parish council rate in regard to the repayment from the Local Taxation Fund, though it applies to other rates, whether it is intended that this Act should have attached to it the same exclusion or exemption.
SIR. R. B. FINLAY: The answer to that really turns upon the question of who
790
are the spending authorities. The spending authorities are mentioned in the Agricultural Rating Act, 1896. We have no such definition here, because the scheme of the Bill in that respect is different from the Act of 1896. There is no fixed sum paid yearly during the continuance of the Act for authorities defined as spending authorities, but the condition is that half of all rates, with the exceptions specified in the clause under consideration, should be borne by the incumbent, and the other half paid in the manner prescribed.
LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: But the incumbent in this case will obtain the benefit of a reduction of half the parish council rate?
SIR R. B. FINLAY: Certainly.
MR. LOGAN: The right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill said that those of us who voted for this Amendment would be voting for making the Bill a dummy Bill. I do not understand that to be the object of my hon. friend. His object is that during the next two years the country shall have an opportunity of realising the provisions of this Bill as they seem to have been realised inn certain parts of the country. At the expiration of that time I believe that no Government will have the nerve to bring in a similar Bill. By that time the nation will have realised that this is a Bill to relieve parsons from rates which they do not pay. There is no man who will under this Bill have half his rates paid for him in the future, but was allowed when his stipend was settled the full value of the rates which he would have to pay. Therefore I am absolutely accurate when I say that this is a Bill to relieve parsons of rates which they have not got to pay. On that ground I shall have the very greatest pleasure indeed in supporting my hon. friend in the Division Lobby in endeavouring to give the country an opportunity of realising what is the object of the Government in bringing in this iniquitous measure.
MR. CAWLEY: This Amendment will give the country an opportunity of considering the measure—
THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is anticipating his Third Reading speech.
MR. CAWLEY: I will not pursue that point. But this Amendment will give the country a great chance of really considering the question thoroughly. When this measure was sprung upon the House very few Members on either side really understood the question. We on this side of the House have had a chance of being educated by our colleagues. Members on the other side have had the same chance of being educated—whether or not they have taken advantage of it I do not know. What I would point out is that the country is being educated by the Debates in this House, and if they have a chance of two years' education they may come to a different conclusion than the majority in the House anticipate. Therefore, I say that the majority in this House do not represent the majority in the country.
MR. CARVELL WILLIAMS: I should like the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill to tell us on what ground the operation of this measure is to be limited to the continuance of the Agricultural Rating Act of 1896. That is a piece of information which has not been given throughout the discussion. The Agricultural Rating Act was, beyond all question, due to agricultural depression, but we have been told again and again that this Bill has no connection whatever with agricultural depression. That being the case, why should this limitation be imposed? It is utterly inconsistent with all the arguments which have been used in support of the Bill. In truth, the course pursued by the Government has been a mass of inconsistencies from beginning to end.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 244; Noes, 148. (Division List, No. 259.)

AYES.

Allsopp, Hon. George

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Arnold, Alfred

Charrington, Spencer

Fisher, William Hayes

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Chelsea, Viscount

Flower, Ernest

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Clare, Octavius Leigh

Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Clarke, Sir Edw.(Plymouth)

Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)

Baillie, James E. B.(Inverness)

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Gibbons, J. Lloyd

Baird, John George Alexander

Coddington, Sir William

Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans)

Balcarres, Lord

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Gilliat, John Saunders

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Goldsworthy, Major-General

Banbury, Frederick George

Compton, Lord Alwyne

Gordon, Hon. John Edward

Barnes, Frederic Gorell

Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)

Gorst, Rt. Hon.Sir John Eldon

Barry, Rt Hn A H. Smith-(Hunts

Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W.

Goschen, Rt Hn G. J (St George's

Bartley, George C. T.

Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Edw. T. D.

Goschen, George J. (Sussex)

Barton, Dunbar Plunket

Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Cripps, Charles Alfred

Graham, Henry Robert

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol)

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants)

Cross, Herb. Shepherd(Bolton)

Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)

Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull

Cruddas, William Donaldson

Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.

Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Gretton, John

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Curzon, Viscount

Gull, Sir Cameron

Beresford, Lord Charles

Dalkeith, Earl of

Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo.

Bigwood, James

Davies, Sir Hor. D.(Chatham)

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. Wm.

Bill, Charles

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Hanson, Sir Reginald

Blundell, Colonel Henry C.

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Hardy, Laurence

Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme

Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Dorington, Sir John Edward

Heaton, John Henniker

Bousfield, William Robert

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Helder, Augustus

Brassey, Albert

Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S.

Henderson, Alexander

Brookfield, A. Montagu

Doxford, William Theodore

Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

Bullard, Sir Harry

Drucker, A.

Hill,Sir Edward Stock(Bristol)

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

Hoard, Edw Brodie (Hampstead

Butcher, John George

Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. Hart

Hobhouse, Henry

Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs.)

Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

Holland, Hon. Lionel R. (Bow)

Cavendish, V. C. W. (D'rbyshire

Fardell, Sir T. George

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)

Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir. J. (Manc.)

Houston, R. P.

Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

Field Admiral (Eastbourne)

Howell, William Tudor

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn.J.(Birm.

Finch, George H.

Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn

Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-

Milton, Viscount

Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybridge)

Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies

Monk, Charles James

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Jebb, Richard Claverhouse

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Skewes-Cox, Thomas

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

Smith, J. Parker (Lanarks.)

Jenkins, Sir John Jones

Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh.

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Morrell, George Herbert

Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)

Jolliffe, Hon. H. George

Morrison, Walter

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Kemp, George

Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

Mount, William George

Stock, James Henry

Kenyon, James

Muntz, Philip A.

Strauss, Arthur

Kimber, Henry

Murray, Rt. Hon. A.G.(Bute)

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

King, Sir Henry Seymour

Murray, Charles J.(Coventry)

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Lafone, Alfred

Murray, Col.Wyndham (Bath)

Sutherland, Sir Thomas

Laurie, Lieut.-General

Nicholson, William Graham

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Lawrence, Wm. F.(Liverpool)

Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford

Thorburn, Walter

Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Thornton, Percy M.

Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry)

Pender, Sir James

Tollemache, Henry James

Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. Edw. H.

Percy, Earl

Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray

Leighton, Stanley

Pierpoint, Robert

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset)

Pilkington, R.(Lancs, Newton)

Valentia, Viscount

Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swans.)

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H.

Lockwood, Lt.-Colonel A.R.

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Wanklyn, James Leslie

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Ward, Hon. Robert A. (Crewe)

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

Purvis, Robert

Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E. (Kent)

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverpool

Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

Rankin, Sir James

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

Lorne, Marquess of

Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

Williams, J. Powell-(Brim.)

Lowe, Francis William

Rentoul, James Alexander

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Lowles, John

Richards, Henry Charles

Wilson, J. W. (Wercestersh., N.)

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Richardson, Sir T.(Hartlepool)

Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

Lucas-Shadwell, William

Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.

Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson

Wylie, Alexander

Macartney, W. G. Ellison

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Wyndham, George

Macdona, John Cumming

Round, James

Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H.

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Wyvill, Marmaduke d'Arcy

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

Young, Commander (Berks, E.)

Malcolm, Ian

Rutherford, John

Younger, William

Martin, Richard Biddulph

Samuel, Harry S.(Limehouse)

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Saunderson, Rt.Hon. Col. E.J.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas. John

Savory, Sir Joseph

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Seely, Charles Hilton

Milner, Sir Frederick George

Sharpe, William Edward T.

NOES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Hedderwick, Thos. Chas. H.

Allan, William (Gateshead)

Crilly, Daniel

Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H.

Ambrose, Robert

Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

Holland, Wm. H. (York, W. R.

Asher, Alexander

Dalziel, James Henry

Horniman, Frederick John

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Hy.

Davies, M. V.-(Cardigan)

Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

Atherley-Jones, L.

Davitt, Michael

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire)

Dillon, John

Jacoby, James Alfred

Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)

Donelan, Captain A.

Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez E.

Barlow, John Emmott

Doogan, P. C.

Joicey, Sir James

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Duckworth, James

Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea)

Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

Dunn, Sir William

Jones, W. (Carnarvonshire)

Billson, Alfred

Edwards, Owen Morgan

Kearley, Hudson, E.

Bolton, Thomas Dolling

Ellis, John Edward

Kinloch, Sir J. G. Smyth

Broadhurst, Henry

Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

Labouchere, Henry

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Evans, Sir Francis H. (South'ton

Langley, Batty

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Evershed, Sydney

Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland)

Burns, John

Fenwick, Charles

Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

Burt, Thomas

Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

Leng Sir John

Buxton, Sydney Charles,

Flynn, James Christopher

Leuty, Thomas Richmond

Caldwell, James

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

Lloyd-George, David

Cameron, Sir C. (Glasgow)

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Logan, John William

Cameron, Robert (Durham)

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.

Lough, Thomas

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Macaleese, Daniel

Causton, Richard knight

Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley

MacDonnell, Dr M A.(Queen'sC

Cawley, Frederick

Gurdon, Sir Wm. Brampton

M'Arthur, W. (Cornwall)

Channing, Francis Allston

Haldane, Richard Burdon

M'Crae, George

Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.)

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm.

M'Dermott, Patrick

Clough, Walter Owen

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

M'Ewan, William

Colville, John

Hazell, Walter

M'Ghee, Richard

M'Kenna, Reginald

Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)

Stevenson, Francis S.

M'Laren, Charles Benjamin

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Stuart, James (Shoreditch)

M'Leod, John

Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs. S W

Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

Maddison, Fred.

Power, Patrick Joseph

Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)

Maden, John Henry

Price, Robert John

Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand

Priestly, Briggs (Yorks.)

Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds, S.)

Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel)

Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

Weir, James Galloway

Morgan, J. Lloyd(Carmarthen

Randell, David

Whitely, George (Stockport)

Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr

Reckitt, Harold James

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

Rickett, J. Compton

Williams, John Carvell (Notts.

Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

Morton, E. J. C.(Devonport)

Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Moulton, John Fletcher

Samuel, J.(Stockton-on-Tees)

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

Wilson, John (Govan)

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudders.

O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal)

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Woods, Samuel

O'Connor, James (Wicklow,W.

Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire)

Yoxall, James Henry

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Smith, Samuel (Flint)

Oldroyd, Mark

Souttar, Robinson

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

O'Malley, William

Spicer, Albert

Mr. Herbert Lewis and Mr. Lambert.

Palmer, Sir Charles M.(Durh'm

Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.

Palmer, George Wm.(Reading)

Steadman, William Charles

MR. D. A. THOMAS: I move this Amendment with a degree of diffidence, because of what has fallen from the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill, and because, in his august presence, I am not sure that any Amendment of mine will be regarded as important. Earlier in the evening he asked me whether I was serious. In moving this Amendment I assure him and the Committee that I am as serious and sincere and conscientious as the right hon. Gentleman himself could possibly be in promoting the Bill. I am not going to say anything about his impartiality, because I am sure the Chairman would rule me out of order. I wish to thank the hon. and learned Member the Solicitor-General for acknowledging that he recognised that the Amendments moved from this side of the House were not moved with any intention of prolonging the proceedings on this Bill. (Laughter.) Hon. Members may laugh, but the Solicitor-General said that, and, as far as I could see, with all seriousness. To come to this Amendment, I moved a similar one upon the Agricultural Rating Bill of 1896. It was then supported with almost unanimity on this side, and received some support on the other side of the House, while in the country it received a still larger measure of support. That being so, I venture to think that an Amendment exempting the poor-rate should receive infinitely more support in relation to this particular Bill than in the case of the Agricultural Rating Act. There can be no question at all that, at any rate up to the days of Elizabeth—in fact, I challenge hon. Members to deny that in the first instance—
796
the relief of the poor came out of the tithe. It was not a question of paying a small rate for that purpose, but at the very least one-third of the tithe went to the relief of the poor. If that was the case at the origin of the tithe and for many centuries after, I say that even now the question of the rate for the relief of the poor ought to be exempted from a measure which proposes to relieve parsons from half the rates which they now pay. The grounds for my motion are very substantial, and with all seriousness I venture to commend it to the Committee.
Amendment proposed—
"In page 2, line 4, after the word 'except' to insert the words 'any rate levied in relief of the poor or.'"—(Mr. D. A. Thomas.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
MR. LONG: I hope I may be allowed to assure the hon. Gentleman that when I referred to the seriousness of his previous Amendment I did not mean to throw the slightest doubt upon the sincerity of his motives. The present Amendment, I frankly admit, is a very substantial one—substantial because, if carried, it would destroy at least one-half of the effect of the Bill. It has been advanced and recommended to the Committee in a manner totally different from that which I had anticipated, and therefore the remarks I had prepared in answer to it are scarcely applicable. The hon. Gentleman has frankly told us that he casts aside altogether the historical arguments to which hon. Gentlemen on

797
the other side have attached so much importance during previous discussions. He remarked upon the importance of the circumstances up to Queen Elizabeth, but what importance he attaches to the period since Queen Elizabeth's time I do not know. At any rate, he abrogates the whole historical argument.
MR. D. A. THOMAS: Oh, no!
MR. LONG: I admit that this is a substantial argument—that is to say, it raises a question which goes to the very foundation of the whole problem of the readjustment of local taxation. I am not casting any doubts upon the bona fides of the hon. Member or the sincerity of his motives in bringing forward Amendments, but this is an Amendment practically to the Second Reading, because it raises the whole question of the historical liability of certain classes of property to rates. Whatever may have been the case for the historical argument which has been urged with so much force by gentlemen opposite, Parliament has to realise that there has been a complete change in the capacity of different classes of property to bear the burden of local rates, and that, whatever may have been the case in the days when these burdens were created, at the present time the burden is unjustly distributed and the inequality ought to be redressed. To exclude from a measure of reform such as this the poor rate—which is probably at least half, and in some cases more than half—would be to make a farce of any reform of local taxation. Therefore, I think I am justified in saying that it is unnecessary and undesirable that we should go at this period of the Debate, on an Amendment in Committee, into the whole question, historical or otherwise, and I am justified, I think, in asking the Committee to reject this Amendment on the ground that in the first place, we have proved that the incidence of local taxation is unjust and unfair; and in the second place no attempt has been made to meet the argument that if this Amendment were carried it would reduce the relief in a degree for which there is no justification whatever. I therefore ask the Committee t6 resist this Amendment, and I hope they will do so, because we have so far established the case for those whom we seek to relieve.
MR. SAMUEL EVANS: I am sure the House will be very sorry that, by reason of the capital speech made by my hon. friend who moved this Amendment, the right hon. Gentleman has not been able to put before the House the observations which he had prepared in answer to this proposal. I suppose that is the reason why the right hon. Gentleman did not, so far as I could gather, adduce one single argument why this poor rate should be excused to one class of persons. He said my hon. friend has turned his back upon all ancient authorities; but he had done nothing of the kind, for he had not had time to get them out. Here is a book from which I should like to quote one passage. It is a book written by the hon. and learned Member for Stroud, and in it he invites us to go back to ancient history, and this is what the hon. and learned Member says:
"During the first ages of Christianity
—and I hope that goes back far enough to please the right hon. Gentleman-—
"Clergymen were supported by the voluntary offerings of their flock."
It is a pity that that is not so now. Continuing the quotation, the hon. and learned Member says:
"But this being a precarious existence, the ecclesiastics in every country in Europe claimed, and, what is more important, in the course of time established, a right to the tenth part of the produce of the land."
That is the origin of tithe in the early ages of Christianity. Then we have got this Report which is the foundation for this Bill, and it deals with the subject in extenso. In that Report the Commissioners go back further than the first ages of Christianity, for they go back to Leviticus. I venture to call the attention of the Committee to Clause 4 of the Report, which states that tithes were devoted to the maintenance of the church fabric, the use of the bishop and incumbent, and also:
"To some extent, to the feeding of the poor and the entertainment of the stranger."
Apparently that "some extent" has vanished entirely now; and yet this is the rate which you are proposing to take, to the extent of one half of it, from the shoulders of those whose only excuse—if excuse they have—for taking the tithes at all is, that out of this rate they were, to

799
the extent of one-third, willing to maintain the poor. I am inclined to cite one more authority, more particularly as I now see the First Lord of the Admiralty in his place. Hitherto, I think the only part which the right hon. Gentleman has taken in these discussions is the part of walking through the Lobby. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to call the attention of the Committee to some cogent observations made by him with respect to the poor rates. This is what he said:
"I rejoice to say that it seems that the turning point has arrived, and unless the House should take the dangerous step of supplementing the poor rates by grants from the Consolidated Fund, there may be some hopes of the poor rates being reduced. But I am certain that no step is more likely to increase our expenditure than if the House was to open the flood-gates of the Consolidated Fund."
Those are opinions which the right hon. Gentleman expressed when he was in the prime of his manhood, and, so far as we
are concerned, we adhere to those very liberal opinions which he then expressed. No doubt the Committee will be glad of any enlightenment from the point of view of the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty, and we should like to hear some reason for his change of opinion. Unless he gives us some very good reason, we shall be forced to go into the Lobby in obedience to the call of my hon. friend the Member for Merthyr Tydvil. While the clergyman is to be relieved, the poor farmer has to pay his rates in full, and the clergyman is also being relieved of his duty to the poor. Therefore I think my hon. friend was justified in bringing forward this Amendment, for he is only putting forward opinions which were once held by the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty himself.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 149; Noes, 267. (Division List, No. 260.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Dunn, Sir William

Lloyd-George, David

Allan, William (Gateshead)

Edwards, Owen Morgan

Logan, John William

Ambrose, Robert

Ellis, John Edward

Lough, Thomas

Asher, Alexander

Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

Macaleese, Daniel

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

Evans, Sir F. H. (South'ton)

MacDonnell, Dr. M. A (Qu'n's C

Atherley-Jones, L.

Evershed, Sydney

M'Crae, George

Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire)

Fenwick, Charles

M'Dermott, Patrick

Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)

Ferguson, R. C. Munro(Leith)

M'Ewan, William

Barlow, John Emmott

Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

M'Ghee, Richard

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Flynn, James Christopher

M'Kenna, Reginald

Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

Foster, Sir W. (Derby Co.)

M'Laren, Charles Benjamin

Billson, Alfred

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

M'Leod, John

Bolton, Thomas Dolling

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Maddison, Fred

Broadhurst, Henry

Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley

Maden, John Henry

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Gurdon, Sir Wm. Brampton

Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Haldane, Richard Burdon

Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel)

Burns, John

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm.

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Burt, Thomas

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr

Buxton, Sydney Charles

Hazell, Walter

Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

Caldwell, James

Hedderwick, Thomas Chas. H.

Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose

Cameron, Robert (Durham)

Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H.

Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Holland, W. H. (York, W.R.)

Moulton, John Fletcher

Causton, Richard Knight

Horniman, Frederick John

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Cawley, Frederick

Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Channing, Francis Allston

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.)

Jacoby, James Alfred

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Clough, Walter Owen

Joicey, Sir James

Oldroyd, Mark

Colville, John

Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea)

O'Malley, William

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

Palmer, Sir Charles M.(Durham

Crilly, Daniel

Kearley, Hudson E.

Palmer, George Wm.(Reading

Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

Kilbride, Denis

Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)

Dalziel, James Henry

Kinloch, Sir John G. Smyth

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

Lambert, George

Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs, SW

Davitt, Michael

Langley, Batty

Power, Patrick Joseph

Dewar, Arthur

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land

Price, Robert John

Dillon, John

Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)

Priestley, Briggs (Yorks)

Donelan, Captain A.

Leng, Sir John

Randell, David

Doogan, P.C.

Leuty, Thomas Richmond

Reckitt, Harold James

Duckworth, James

Lewis, John Herbert

Rickett, J. Compton

Roberts, John H. (Denbighsh.

Stevenson, Francis S.

Wilson, Hy. J. (York, W. R.)

Robertson, Edmund(Dundee)

Stuart, James (Shoreditch)

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.

Wilson, John (Govan)

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh N.)

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.)

Woodhouse, Sir, J. T. (Hud'sfield

Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.)

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Woods, Samuel

Smith, Samuel (Flint)

Wedderburn, Sir William

Yoxall, James Henry

Souttar, Robinson

Weir, James Galloway

Spicer, Albert

Whiteley, George(Stockport)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur.

Steadman, William Charles

Williams, John Carvell (Notts.

NOES.

Allsopp, Hon. George

Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

Heaton, John Henniker

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Cripps, Charles Alfred

Helder, Augustus

Arnold, Alfred

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Henderson, Alexander

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton

Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter

Atkinson, Right Hon. John

Cruddas, William Donaldson

Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol)

Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitznoy

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead)

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Curzon, Viscount

Hobhouse, Henry

Baillie, J. E. B. (Inverness)

Dalkeith, Earl of

Hulland, Hon. L. R. (Bow)

Baird, John George Alexander

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Balcarres, Lord

Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chat'm

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J.(Man.)

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Houston, R. P.

Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W.(Leeds)

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Howell, William Tudor

Banbury, Frederick George

Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

Hozier, Hon. James H. Cecil

Barnes, Frederic Gorell

Dorington, Sir John Edward

Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn

Barry, Rt. Hn. A.H.S.-(Hunts

Doughty, George

Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice.

Barry, Sir F. T.(Windsor)

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A Akers-

Jackson, Rt. Hon. W. Lawies.

Bartley, George C. T.

Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S.

Jebb, Richard Claverhouse

Barton, Dunbar Plunket

Doxford, William Theodore

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Bathurst, Hon. Allen B.

Drucker, A.

Jenkins, Sir John Jones

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Brstol)

Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Beckett, Ernest William

Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Hart

Joliffe, Hon. H. George

Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull

Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

Kemp, George

Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe

Fardell, Sir T. George

Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H.

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn E.

Kenyon, James

Beresford, Lord Charles

Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J.(Manc'r

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)

Kimber, Henry

Bigwood, James

Finch, George H.

King, Sir Henry Seymour

Bill, Charles

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Lafone, Alfred

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Lauri, Lieut.-General

Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme

Fisher, William Hayes

Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Fison, Frederick William

Lea, Sir Thos. (Londonderry)

Bousfield, William Robert

Flower, Ernest

Lecky, Rt. Hon. William E. H.

Brassey, Albert

Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)

Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)

Leighton, Stanley

Brookfield, A. Montagu

Gedge, Sydney

Llewellyn, Evan H. (Som'set.)

Bullard, Sir Harry

Gibbons, J. Lloyd

Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swan.)

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond.

Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

Butcher, John George

Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans

Loder, Gerald Walter Ersk.

Carlile, William Walter

Gilliat, John Saunders

Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs.)

Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (L'pool.)

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

Goldsworthy, Major-General

Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Gordon, Hon. John Edward

Lorne, Marquess of

Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

Lowe, Francis William

Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

Goschen, Rt Hn G. J. (St George's

Lowles, John

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.

Goschen, George J.(Sussex)

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Lucas-Shadwell, William

Charrington, Spencer

Graham, Henry Robert

Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

Chelsea, Viscount

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Macartney, W. G. Ellison

Clare, Octavius Leigh

Green, Walfort D (Wednesbury

Macdona, John Cummnig

Clarke, Sir Edward(Plymouth

Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Cochrane, Hon.Thos. H. A. E.

Gretton, John

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

Coddington, Sir William

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Malcolm, Ian

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Gull, Sir Cameron

Martin, Richard Biddulph

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Collings, Rt, Hon. Jesse

Halsey, Thomas Frederick

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Colomb, Sir J. Charles Ready

Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo.

Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas John.

Compton, Lord Alwyne

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. Wm.

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)

Hanson, Sir Reginald

Milner, Sir Frederick George

Cornwallis, Fiennes S. W.

Hardy, Laurence

Milton, Viscount

Milward, Colonel Victor

Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester).

Monk, Charles James

Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W.

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf. Univ.

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson

Thorburn, Walter

More, R. Jasper (Shropshire)

Robertson, Herbert(Hackney)

Thornton, Percy M.

Morgan, Hn. Fred (Monm'thsh.

Round, James

Tollemache, Henry James

Morrell, George Herbert

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Tomlinson, W. E. Murray

Morrison, Walter

Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Morton, Arthur H.A.(Deptford

Rutherford, John

Valentia, Viscount

Mount, William George

Ryder, John Herbert Dudley

Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

Muntz, Philip A.

Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

Wanklyn, James Leslie

Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G.(Bute)

Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles

Ward, Hon. Robert A.(Crewe)

Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)

Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. E. J.

Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E.(Kent)

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Savory, Sir Joseph

Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

Nicholson, William Graham

Seely, Charles Hilton

Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon

Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford

Seton-Karr, Henry

Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

Pender, Sir James

Sidebottom, T. H.(Stalybr.)

Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm

Penn, John

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Percy, Earl

Skewes-Cox, Thomas

Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

Pierpoint, Robert

Smith, J. P.(Lanarkshire)

Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton

Smith, Hn. W. F. D.(Strand)

Wylie, Alexander

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Stanley, Hn. A.(Ormskirk)

Wyndham, George

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Stephens, Henry Charles

Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

Purvis, Robert

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M.

Young, Commander (Berks, E.)

Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

Stock, James Henry

Younger William

Rankin, Sir James

Strauss, Arthur

Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Rentoul, James Alexander

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Richards, Henry Charles

Sutherland, Sir Thomas

MR. D. A. THOMAS: My object in moving this Amendment is to bring the Bill into conformity with Standing Order No. 45. If this Amendment is accepted, I propose at a later stage to move a new clause, which I have handed in, providing for the precise duration of the Act. This being only a temporary Bill, during the continuation of the Agricultural Rating Act, it is a measure of a temporary character, and certainly falls within the provisions of Standing Order No. 45. I know it will be argued that the Agricultural Rating Act did not comply with the Standing Orders. I do not see, because an oversight occurred in that Act, that it should be taken as a precedent. If we have Standing Orders, for Heaven's sake let us obey them. This Standing Order was passed in the year 1849, and I presume it was passed for some good and sufficient reason. I do not want the discussion on the Committee stage prolonged, and I will not delay the Committee from coming to a decision.
Another Amendment proposed—
"In page 2, line 7, to leave out from the word 'half' to the end of the clause."—(Mr. David Thomas.)
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
MR. LONG: I understand the hon. Gentleman moves this Amendment in order to establish his contention that the first clause of the Bill is not in accordance with the Standing Order. Whether the clause is or is not in accordance with the Standing Order, rests with a higher authority than myself. This Bill was drawn with a full knowledge of the provisions of that Standing Order, and every possible step was taken by the framers of the Bill to see that the Standing Order was complied with. I want to point out to the hon. Gentleman that he is adopting a form of Amendment which would be, to say the least of it, extremely inconvenient. He proposes to remove the words which contain the date when the Act will come into force. It is absolutely necessary that the date should be stated when the new rating system comes into operation.
MR. D. A. THOMAS: I have provided for that by a new clause.
MR. LONG: Yes, but I am dealing with the hon. Member's Amendment as it stands. Whether he would be able afterwards to secure the introduction of other words is a totally different thing, which we cannot discuss at the present time. It is sufficient for me, as the Minister in charge of the Bill, to say that every step

805
necessary was taken in order to procure that the framing of the Bill was in compliance with the Standing Orders.
MR. D. A. THOMAS: As a point of order, Mr. Lowther, I wish to ask you whether the Bill is in compliance with the Standing Order.
THE CHAIRMAN: That is not a question for me to decide. The Bill in
its present state was referred to the Committee. If there was anything improper in the shape of the Bill, objection ought to have been taken before the Bill was referred to the Committee. The Second Reading of the Bill cures any defect.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 274; Noes, 152. (Division List, No. 261.)

AYES.

Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden

Compton, Lord Alwyne

Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Allsopp, Hon. George

Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)

Halsey, Thomas Frederick

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W.

Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord George

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

Arnold, Alfred

Cox, Irwin Edward B.

Hanson, Sir Reginald

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Cripps, Charles Alfred

Hardy, Laurence

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Cross, Herbert S.(Bolton)

Heaton, John Henniker

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Helder, Augustus

Baillie, James E.B.(Inverness)

Curzon, Viscount

Henderson, Alexander

Baird, John George Alexander

Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh

Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

Balcarres, Lord

Dalkeith, Earl of

Hill, Sir Edwd. Stock (Bristol)

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampste'd

Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W.(Leeds)

Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)

Hobhouse, Henry

Banbury, Frederick George

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow)

Barnes, Frederic Gorell

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts

Dixon-Hartland, Sir Frd. Dixon

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Barry, Sir Francis T.(Windsor)

Dorington, Sir John Edward

Houston, R. P.

Bartley, George C. T.

Doughty, George

Howell, William Tudor

Barton, Dunbar Plunket

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S.

Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn

Beach, Rt Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol)

Doxford, William Theodore

Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-

Beckett, Ernest William

Drucker, A.

Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies

Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull

Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

Jebb, Richard Claverhouse

Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe

Dyke, Rt Hn. Sir William Hart

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

Jenkins, Sir John Jones

Beresford, Lord Charles

Fardell, Sir T. George

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edwd.

Jolliffe, Hon. H. George

Bigwood, James

Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r

Kemp, George

Bill, Charles

Field, Admiral(Eastbourne)

Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir J. H.

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Finch, George H.

Kenyon, James

Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Kimber, Henry

Bousfield, William Robert

Fisher, William Hayes

King, Sir Henry Seymour

Brassey, Albert

Fison, Frederick William

Lafone, Alfred

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Flower, Ernest

Laurie, Lieut.-General

Brookfield, A. Montagu

Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)

Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)

Ballard, Sir Harry

Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)

Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Galloway, William Johnson

Lecky, Rt. Hn. William E. H.

Butcher, John George

Gedge, Sydney

Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

Carlile, William Walter

Gibbons, J. Lloyd

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond.

Leighton, Stanley

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbys.)

Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset)

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Gilliat, John Saunders

Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'nsea

Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)

Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

Goldsworthy, Major-General

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Chamberlain, Rt.Hn.J.(Birm.

Gordon, Hon. John Edward

Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Livep'l)

Charrington, Spencer

Goschen, Rt Hn G. J. (St George

Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

Chelsea, Viscount

Goschen, George J.(Sussex)

Lorne, Marquess of

Clare, Octavius Leigh

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Lowe, Francis William

Clarke, Sir E. (Plymouth)

Graham, Henry Robert

Lowles, John

Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Coddington, Sir William

Green, Walford D. (Wedn'sbury

Lucas-Shadwell, William

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.

Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Gretton, John

Macartney, W. G. Ellison

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Macdona, John Cumming

Colomb, Sir John Charles R.

Gull, Sir Cameron

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

M'Iver, Sir L. (Edinburgh,W.)

Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Malcolm, Ian

Rankin, Sir James

Sutherland, Sir Thomas

Martin, Richard Biddulph

Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Rentoul, James Alexander

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G.(Ox.Un.)

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Richards, Henry Charles

Thorburn, Walter

Milbank, Sir Powlett C. John

Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)

Thornton, Percy M.

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matt. W.

Tollemache, Henry James

Milner, Sir Frederick George

Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray

Milton, Viscount

Robertson, Herbert(Hackney)

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Milward, Colonel Victor

Round, James

Valentia, Viscount

Monk, Charles James

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H.

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

Wanklyn, James Leslie

More, R. Jasper (Shropshire)

Rutherford, John

Ward, Hon. Robert A.(Crewe)

Morgan, Hon. F. (Monm'thsh.)

Ryder, John Herbert Dudley

Warde, Lieut.-Col.C.E.(Kent)

Morrell, George Herbert

Samuel, Harry S.(Limehouse)

Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

Morrison, Walter

Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles

Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

Morton, Arthur H.A.(Deptford

Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Ed. J.

Wharton, Rt. Hon. J. Lloyd.

Mount, William George

Savory, Sir Joseph

Whitmore, Charles Algernon

Muntz, Philip A.

Seely, Charles Hilton

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)

Murray, Rt. Hon. A.G.(Bute)

Seton-Karr, Henry

Williams, Jos. Powell-(Birm.)

Murray, Charles J.(Coventry)

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Sidebottom, T. Harrop (Stalybr.

Wilson, John(Falkirk)

Nicholson, William Graham

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Skewes-Cox, Thomas

Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford

Smith, James P.(Lanarks.)

Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Smith, Hn. W. F. D.(Strand)

Wylie, Alexander

Pender, Sir James

Spencer, Ernest

Wyndham, George

Penn, John

Stanley, Hn. A.(Ormskirk)

Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

Percy, Earl

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

Pierpoint, Rich.(Lancs, Newton

Stephens, Henry Charles

Young, Commander (Berks, E.)

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Younger, William

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Stock, James Henry

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Strauss, Arthur

Purvis, Robert

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

NOES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Duckworth, James

Leese, Sir J. E. (Accrington)

Allison, Robert Andrew

Dunn, Sir William

Leng, Sir John

Ambrose, Robert

Edwards, Owen Morgan

Leuty, Thomas Richmond

Asher, Alexander

Ellis, John Edward

Lewis, John Herbert

Atherley-Jones, L.

Evans, Sir F. H.(South'ton)

Lloyd-George, David

Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)

Evershed, Sydney

Logan, John William

Barlow, John Emmott

Fenwick, Charles

Lough, Thomas

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Ferguson, R. C. M.(Leith)

MacAleese, Daniel

Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

MacDonnell, Dr M A. (Queen's C

Billson, Alfred

Flynn, James Christopher

M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

Bolton, Thomas Dolling

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

M'Crae, George

Broadhurst, Henry

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

M'Dermott, Patrick

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Gladstone, Rt. Hon. H. John

M'Ewan, William

Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

Goddard, Daniel Ford

M'Ghee, Richard

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Gourley, Sir E. Temperley

M'Kenna, Reginald

Burns, John

Gurdon, Sir Wm. Brampton

M'Laren, Charles Benjamin

Burt, Thomas

Haldane, Richard Burdon

M'Leod, John

Caldwell, James

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm.

Maddison, Fred.

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

Maden, John Henry

Causton, Richard Knight

Hazell, Walter

Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand

Cawley, Frederick

Hedderwick, Thomas C. H.

Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel)

Channing, Francis Allston

Holland, W. H.(York, W.R.)

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.)

Horniman, Frederick John

Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr

Clough, Walter Owen

Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

Colville, John

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Jacoby, James Alfred

Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

Crilly, Daniel

Joicey, Sir James

Moulton, John Fletcher

Crombie, John William

Jones, D. Brymnore (Swansea)

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Dalziel, James Henry

Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt Hn Sir U.

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Davies, M. Vanghan-(Cardigan

Kearley, Hudson E.

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Davitt, Michael

Kilbride, Denis

Oldroyd, Mark

Dewar, Arthur

Kinloch, Sir John G. Smyth

O'Malley, William

Dillon, John

Labouchere, Henry

Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham

Donelan, Captain A.

Lambert, George

Palmer, George Wm.(Reading)

Doogan, P. C.

Langley, Batty

Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland)

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs. S W

Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfars.)

Whiteley, George (Stockport)

Power, Patrick Joseph

Smith, Samuel(Flint)

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Price, Robert John

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Williams, J. Carvell (Notts)

Priestley, Briggs (Yorks.)

Souttar, Robinson

Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull)

Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

Spicer, Albert

Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.)

Randell, David

Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.

Wilson, John(Durham Mid.)

Reckitt, Harold James

Steadman, William Charles

Wilson, John (Govan)

Rickett, J. Compton

Stevenson, Francis S.

WilsonJos. H. (Middlesbrough)

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Stuart, James (Shoreditch)

Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huders)

Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

Woods, Samuel

Robson, William Snowdon

Thomas, Alfred (Glamor., E.)

Yoxall, James Henry

Samuel,J.(Stockton-on-Tees)

Walton, John Law. (Leeds,S.)

Scott Ch. Prestwich (Leigh)

Warner, Thomas CourtenayT.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Shaw, Charles Edward (Staf.)

Wedderburn, Sir William

Mr. D. A. Thomas and Mr. Samuel Evans.

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Weir, James Galloway

Question put, "That Clause 4 stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 270; Noes, 155. (Division List, No. 262.)

AYES.

Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden

Coddington, Sir William

Goschen, Rt Hn G. J. (St George's

Allsopp, Hon. George

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Goschen, George J. (Sussex)

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Graham, Henry Robert

Arnold, Alfred

Colomb, Sir J. Charles Ready

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Compton, Lord Alwyne

Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'ry

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)

Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W

Gretton, John

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Baillie, James E. B.(Inverness

Cox, Irwin Edw. Banibridge

Gull, Sir Cameron

Baird, John George Alexander

Cripps, Charles Alfred

Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Balcarres, Lord

Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)

Halsey, Thomas Frederick

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A.J.(Manc'r

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord George

Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W.(Leeds

Curzon, Viscount

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

Banbury, Frederick George

Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh

Hanson, Sir Reginald

Barnes, Frederic Gorell

Dalkeith, Earl of

Hardy, Laurence

Barry, Rt Hn A. H. Smith-(Hts.

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Barry, Sir Francis T.(Windsor

Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)

Heaton, John Henniker

Bartley, George C. T.

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Helder, Augustus

Barton, Dunbar Plunket

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Henderson, Alexander

Beach, Rt Hn Sir M.H.(Bristol

Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. D.

Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

Beckett, Ernest William

Dorington, Sir John Edward

Hill, Sir Edward Stock(Bristol)

Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull

Doughty, George

Hoare, Ed. Brodie (Hampstead

Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Hobhouse, Henry

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S.

Holland, Hn. Lionel R. (Bow)

Beresford, Lord Charles

Doxford, William Theodore

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Drucker, A.

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Bigwood, James

Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

Houston, R. P.

Bill, Charles

Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Hart

Howell, William Tudor

Bludell, Colonel Henry

Elliot, Hon. A. R. Douglas

Hozier, Hon. James Hy. Cecil

Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme

Fardell, Sir T. George

Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.

Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-

Bousfield, William Robert

Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manch

Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies

Brassey, Albert

Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)

Jebb, Richard Claverhouse

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Finch, George H.

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Brookfield, A. Montagu

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Jenkins, Sir John Jones

Bullard, Sir Harry

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Fisher, William Hayes

Jolliffe, Hon. H. George

Butcher, John George

Fison, Frederick William

Kemp, George

Carlile, William Walter

Flower, Ernest

Kenyon, James

Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs.)

Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William

Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbysh.

Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)

Kimber, Henry

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Galloway, William Johnson

Lafone, Alfred

Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)

Gedge, Sydney

Laurie, Lieut-General

Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

Gibbons, J. Lloyd

Lawson, John Grant (Yorks)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

Gibbs, Hon. A. G. H.(City of Lon

Lea, Sir Thos. (Londonderry)

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans

Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. Ed. H.

Charrington, Spencer

Gilliat, John Saunders

Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

Chelsea, Viscount

Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Clare, Octavius Leigh

Goldsworthy, Major-General

Leighton, Stanley

Clarke, Sir Edwd.(Plymouth)

Gordon, Hon. John Edward

Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E.

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'ns'a

Lockwood, Lieut.-Colonel A. R.

O'Neil, Hon. Robert Torrens

Stephens, Henry Charles

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Pender, Sir James

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

Penn, John

Stock, James Henry

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverp'l)

Percy, Earl

Strauss, Arthur

Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

Pierpoint, Robert

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Lorne, Marquess of

Pilkington, R. (Lancs. Newton

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Lowe, Francis William

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Sutherland, Sir Thomas

Lowles, John

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G (Oxf'd Univ.

Lucas-Shadwell, William

Purvis, Robert

Thorburn, Walter

Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

Thornton, Percy M.

Macartney, W. G. Ellison

Rankin, Sir James

Tollemache, Henry James

Macdona, John Cumming

Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Rentoul, James Alexander

Tritton, Charles Ernest

M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinb.,W.)

Richards, Henry Charles

Valentia, Viscount

Malcolm, Ian

Richardson, Sir Thos.(Hartlep'l

Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

Martin, Richard Biddulph

Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.

Wanklyn, James Leslie

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

Ward, Hon. Robt. A. (Crewe)

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E. (Kent)

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Robinson, Brooke

Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas. John

Round, James

Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Wharton, Rt. Hon. J. Lloyd

Milner, Sir Frederick George

Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

Whitmore, Charles Algernon

Milton, Viscount

Rutherford, John

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)

Milward, Colonel Victor

Ryder, John Herbert Dudley

Williams, J. Powell- (Birm.)

Monk, Charles James

Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles

Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath)

More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. E. J.

Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh.

Savory, Sir Joseph

Wylie, Alexander

Morrell, George Herbert

Seely, Charles Hilton

Wyndham, George

Morrison, Walter

Seton-Karr, Henry

Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H.

Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptf'd.)

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Wyvill, Marmaduke d'Arcy

Mount, William George

Sidebottom, T. Harrop (Stalybr.

Young, Commander (Berks, E.)

Muntz, Philip A.

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Younger, William

Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute)

Skewes Cox, Thomas

Murray, Charles J.(Coventry)

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath)

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Nicholson, William Graham

Spencer, Ernest

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)

Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

NOES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Dalziel, James Henry

Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

Allison, Robert Andrew

Davies,M Vaughan-(Cardigan)

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Ambrose, Robert

Davitt, Michael

Jacoby, James Alfred

Asher, Alexander

Dewar, Arthur

Joicey, Sir James

Atherley-Jones, L.

Dillon, John

Jones, David Brymnor (Swan.

Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)

Donelan, Captain A.

Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.

Barlow, John Emmott

Doogan, P. C.

Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt Hn Sir U.

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

Kearley, Hudson E.

Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

Duckworth, James

Kilbride, Denis

Billson, Alfred

Dunn, Sir William

Kinloch, Sir J. George Smyth

Birrell, Augustine

Edwards, Owen Morgan

Labouchere, Henry

Bolton, Thomas Dolling

Ellis, John Edward

Lambert, George

Broadhurst, Henry

Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

Langley, Batty

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Evans, Sir F. H. (South'ton)

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'l'nd

Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

Evershed, Sydney

Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

Fenwick, Charles

Leng, Sir John

Burns, John

Ferguson, R.C. Munro(Leith)

Leuty, Thomas Richmond

Burt, Thomas

Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

Lewis, John Herbert

Caldwell, James

Flynn, James Christopher

Lloyd-George, David

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

Logan, John William

Causton, Richard Knight

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Lough, Thomas

Cawley, Frederick

Goddard, Daniel Ford

MacAleese, Daniel

Channing, Francis Allston

Gourley, Sir E. Temperley

MacDonnell, Dr. M. A. (Qu'ns C

Clark, Dr. G. B.(Caithness-sh.)

Gurdon, Sir William Brampton

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Clough, Walter Owen

Haldane, Richard Burdon

M'Crae, George

Colville, John

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm.

M'Dermott, Patrick

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale-

M'Ewan, William

Crilly, Daniel

Hazell, Walter

M'Ghee, Richard

Crombie, John William

Hedderwick, Thomas C. H.

M'Kenna, Reginald

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Holland, W. H.(York, W. R.)

M'Laren, Charles Benjamin

Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

Horniman, Frederick John

M'Leod, John

Maddison, Fred

Price, Robert John

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

Maden, John Henry

Priestley, Briggs (Yorks)

Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.

Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand

Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Montagu, Sir S.(Whitechapel)

Randell, David

Wedderburn, Sir William

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

Reckitt, Harold James

Weir, James Galloway

Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr

Rickett, J. Compton

Whiteley, George (Stockport)

Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

Robert, John H. (Denbighs.)

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose

Robson, William Snowdon

Williams, John Carvell (Notts

Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull)

Moulton, John Fletcher

Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford)

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Nussey, Thomas Wilians

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.)

Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire

Wilson, John (Govan)

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Smith, Samuel (Flint)

Wilson, J. W.(Worcestersh.N.

Oldroyd, Mark

Souttar, Robinson

Wilson, J. H. Middlesbrough)

O'Malley, William

Spicer, Albert

Woodhouse, Sir. J. T. (Hud'sfield

Palmer, Sir Chas.M.(Durham)

Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.

Woods, Samuel

Palmer, Geo. Wm.(Reading)

Steadman, William Charles

Yoxall, James Henry

Pease, Joseph A.(Northumb.)

Stevenson, Francis S.

Pickersgill, Edward H.

Stuart, James (Shoreditch)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs S W

Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur

Power, Patrick Joseph

Thomas, Alfred(Glamorgan, E.

New Clause:—
MR. LEWIS: The object of the new Clause I now propose is to exempt Wales from the operation of the Bill. I observe some of my colleagues have put down Amendments to a similar effect, and if my hon. friend the Member for Merthyr intends to move his Amendment, I am quite willing to accept the latter part of his clause, for I do not desire that Wales should lose any benefit to which it might otherwise be entitled under this Bill. We certainly should prefer that any money which Wales may have to pay under this Bill should be devoted to some educational purpose. There are plenty of Parliamentary precedents for dealing with Wales separately, so I need not labour that point. We have had a Sunday Closing Bill for Wales, and a Welsh Intermediate Education Bill which no one would now desire to see repealed; indeed, so beneficial has one of those Acts proved, that proposals have been made by a Royal Commission for extending it. But there are some Acts from which Wales would be gladly excluded, owing to the opinions of the majority of the population, and this is one of them. We have heard a good deal since last Monday of the injustice that this Bill will inflict upon other parts of the United Kingdom. That injustice is especially marked in the case of Wales. The Welsh nation is a nation of Nonconformists, and therefore the passing of this Act would be especially unjust to Wales. Welsh Nonconformists consider that the tithe at the present time is entirely misappropriated, and they hold that it should be applied to purely national purposes. They ob-
814
ject to what they deem to be national property being paid into the coffers of one sect, and they think it is only adding a further injustice to relieve one particular class of the community at the expense of the nation generally. I have observed that hon. Gentlemen opposite representing Welsh constituencies have voted steadily, and with an almost pathetic fidelity, with the Government on most of the stages of this Bill. I see one or two of them who represent urban constituencies in South Wales, and I do not envy them the task of presenting to their constituents the case for this Bill. I have no doubt they will do it as ably and effectively as it can be done; they will make the best case for the most wretched Bill that was ever brought before this House; but still, at the same time, I have confidence as to what would be the result of an appeal to their constituents on this particular Bill. In the last Parliament we had no less than thirty-one out of thirty-four Welsh members pledged to redress the great injustice which the existence of religious inequality in the Principality entails. It is true that in this Parliament we have not so large a majority, but still there are twenty-five of us as against nine. You are forcing a measure down the throats of a people who, by twenty-five votes to nine, have declared their opposition to the kind of Bill you are now introducing—a measure which they view as a great act of injustice. Over and over again in the course of these Debates it has been asserted that this Bill is based on justice, but do you think it is right to make the Nonconformists of Wales, the people who have been doing the major

815
part of the religious and spiritual work in that country during the past generation, to pay out of their own hard earnings a still further addition to the tithe in Wales? I ask the House is that justice to the country, a portion of which I represent? As the Committee is aware the tithe question has been a burning question in Wales in the past, and hundreds and thousands of farmers have undergone very severe pains and penalties rather than pay the tithe. The payment has been enforced, not merely by tithe bailiffs and emergency men, but also by the military forces of the Crown, and the Welsh Nonconformists have been made to feel a galling yoke. Thousands of people have been sold up rather than pay the tithe voluntarily, and these are the very men upon whom you are throwing an additional burden. I have spoken of them as the people who have been doing the spiritual work of the country. Let me give an instance—a parish which is typical of hundreds of other parishes in Wales. It is a large and populous parish. During the last few years mining centres have sprung up in different parts of it. There was one church in a small hamlet in a thinly populated part of the parish, and to the services of that church many hundreds of pounds of tithes were devoted annually. The rest of the tithe probably went into the coffers of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. What did the Church do in that parish? It maintained out of the money contributed by the tithe-payers, chiefly Nonconformists, one Church for a few people. What did the Nonconformists do in the populous mining and quarrying villages? They made religious provision for the inhabitants; they provided Sunday services for people who would otherwise have been altogether destitute of religious ministrations. That continued for a long time, and then the Ecclesiastical Commissioners provided another church. There are hundreds of country parishes in which there is one church attended by a small handful of people, but in which by far the greater portion of spiritual work is done by Nonconformists, who have no endowment in the shape of tithe to rely upon. The work has been done from first to last on the voluntary principle because their hearts were in it. They have provided theological colleges for the education of ministers. They have provided populous churchless places with
816
ministers, and in places where there has been no minister there has been an energetic and devoted diaconate ready to conduct Sunday and week night services, to visit the sick, and to look after the religious training of the young. These are the people who have again and again declared against the Church Establishment and against the application of tithes to the support of the Church, and these are the people whom you are going to fine for the benefit of the clergy. I think our position was very well defined by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham when he said that the great principle of religious equality was everywhere slowly undermining the fabric of ecclesiastical privilege. Yet you are now building up a fabric of ecclesiastical privilege. The right hon. Gentleman told us further that this principle of religious equality was fatal to all State Churches, and that it would surely be applied to the Church in England, Scotland, and Wales. He further went on to point out the sentiment of the people of the Principality was more unanimous and the anomalies of the present arrangement were more striking and irritating in Wales than elsewhere, and it had, therefore, the first claim to their sympathy and support in its efforts to free itself from a burden which recent events, and especially the tithe agitation, had shown to be almost intolerable to the vast majority of the population. Yet you are now proposing to add to that burden. Let us see what the Nonconformists have been doing in Wales. In 1775 there were only 171 Nonconformist congregations, in 1816 the number had increased to 993, and in 1861 it was 2,927, while in 1892 it has risen to 4,262. More than 3,000 Nonconformist places of worship have been built in Wales within the last eighty years. in 1859 the communicants belonging to the four leading Welsh denominations numbered 258,000; in 1892 they had increased to 381,000, an addition of 44½ per cent. Now Wales is a small country, and these figures show that Nonconformity has increased very rapidly. I remember that when this subject was last mentioned in the House, the hon. Baronet the Member for Swansea drew attention to the increase of churches in the Rhondda Valley, that being the best example of progress the Establishment has to present in Wales. What are the facts in regard to

817
that? In the year 1866 there were in this Valley four churches and eleven chapels; in 1870 there were seven churches and twenty-one chapels; in 1884 there were eleven churches and ninety-eight chapels; and in 1892 the figures showed sixteen churches and 117 chapels. And that is in the very heart of Wales, where the Church prides itself on progress it has made. Now I would remind the Committee that this is only a temporary Bill. It is only to last for two years, and I do not think that, in the course of those two years, the positions of the Church and Nonconformity are likely to be altered relatively to any material extent. I wish to ask the Government is there any limit whatever to their desire to force measures of this kind upon Wales? We have asked for measures in which the Welsh people are interested, but every request of that kind has been refused, no matter how reasonable it may have been. We do not ask for this Bill; we only ask to be exempted from its operation, and surely that is a reasonable demand on our part. I hope that hon. Gentlemen will not allow their hostility to Welsh Nonconformity to carry them beyond due bounds. They have a large majority; let them use it with mercy. Of course, if they choose to refuse every request that is made by the representatives of Wales, I can only warn them that the time is coming when the people of Wales will again vote against them with practical unanimity.
New clause (Extent of Act)—(Mr. Lewis)—brought up, and read the first time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the clause be read a second time."
SIR R. B. FINLAY: The hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment has spoken with much feeling of the work done by Welsh Nonconformists. I can assure him that he is mistaken in supposing there is on this side of the House any feeling of hostility towards Nonconformity in Wales. But there was one omission which I did note in his speech, and that was that he made no reference to the excellent work which has also been done by the Church of Wales. After all, we are not engaged upon a Disestablishment Bill. I am not going to follow the hon. Gentleman in that portion of his speech, although I shall be prepared when the occasion arises to deal with that
818
question. This Bill cannot be converted into a means of discussing the propriety of keeping up the Established Church in Wales, and everyone will agree that, as long as that Established Church exists, and as long as the clergyman in Wales is paid out of the tithe rent-charge, his grievance is exactly the same as that of his English brother. There is no possible difference. He does the same work, he is paid in the same way, and he has the same unjust burdens inflicted on him. We have decided that those burdens are unjust, and I confess it strikes me that this Amendment trenches most seriously upon the work which this Committee has already done. We have passed the first clause, providing that the owner of tithe rent-charge attached to a benefice shall be relieved of one-half of his rates, and really it would have been better if the attempt to exclude Wales had been made when that clause was under consideration. This is an endeavour to go back upon what the Committee has already decided. With regard to the proposal that no deduction shall be made from the sums payable to local authorities in Wales and Monmouthshire on account of the Estate Duty Grant, by reason of the passing of this Act, I think the hon. Member will see on reflection that he is mistaken in the idea that this money is taken directly from the Welsh ratepayers. As a matter of fact it is taken out of the sum which would otherwise go into the Local Taxation Account, and the burden is distributed over the whole country in a manner which we spent the greater part of yesterday in discussing. It is not a burden which is specially and exclusively inflicted on Wales. If I understand the latter part of the Amendment aright, it is proposed that there should be a modification of the Local Government Act, 1888, and that there should be an addition made to the sum given to each Welsh county. But we have already decided how the money required under this Bill is to be obtained, and I respectfully ask the Committee not to undo the work it did yesterday.
MR. J. H. ROBERTS: I do not pro-propose to detain the Committee many minutes, for I think the action of the representatives of Wales has been shown with sufficient vigour during these Debates. I should like, however, to say a few words in reply to the speech we have just listened to. I have not a single word to

819
say against the Welsh clergy, but I will point out that, owing to the circumstances in which they are placed in regard to their religious work in Wales, it is absolutely impossible for them to do for Wales what is being done by their fellow clergy in England and elsewhere. What I wish to point out is that, whereas in England the country as a whole will subscribe to the carrying out of the financial proposals of this Bill, the same thing has to be done in Wales with this difference, that in England the feeling may not be so very strong againgst this Bill financially, whereas the feeling in Wales is overwhelmingly against it. There are two or three practical considerations to which I wish to direct the attention of the Committee. First of all, the financial position of Wales is not that of England. I do not say that Wales is a poor country, but it is much poorer than England, and less able to bear the burden which this Bill imposes. I will give the Committee two or three facts with regard to that point. In England income tax is paid at the rate of £6 4s. 2d. per head, whereas in Wales it is only £4 8s. 10d. In 1890, under Schedule D, England paid at the rate of £10 1s. 2d., and Wales at only £4 18s., or less than half. The next practical consideration is that the local authorities in Wales have made good use of the money handed to them through the Local Taxation Account. I do not suppose there is a single set of county councils which has so effectually and usefully expended the money at their command for the education and higher interests of the country than the Welsh County Councils. Further I would remind the Committee that the amount received from Treasury subventions in Wales is not as great as it is in England. In England the rate of 7½d. per head; in Wales in 1890 it was only 5¼d. The third point that I desire to make has reference to what has been done by Nonconformists in Wales. I do not know whether the Committee realises the extent of the sacrifices which the Nonconformists of Wales have made, and are prepared to make, for the higher interests of the country. In Wales the Welsh Presbyterians subscribed during last year nearly £250,000 for various religious purposes, and they are only one out of the four Nonconformist sects in Wales. Is it not strange, therefore, that this miserable pittance provided by the Bill should have
820
to be paid by the general tax-payers of the country towards further increasing the endowment of the clergy of the Church of England? Further, with regard to the Welsh clergy, I believe, if I have not misread their character, that they will not personally welcome the financial proposals of this Bill. It must be remembered that the position of the Nonconformist Church in Wales is an essential factor in the Bill new before us. I wish to reiterate the point mentioned by my hon. friend, that the Established Church in Wales is in a decided minority; that it is the church of the rich, and that it has in the past ranged itself against the national aspirations of the country. That is an historical fact. On the other hand, we have the exceptional position occupied by the Nonconformists. They embrace the large majority of the people of the country, and they have also identified themselves very closely during the last fifty years with every effort to advance the higher interests of the country. Although I know this Bill is bound to pass, it remains the fact that the overwhelming feeling in Wales is against it. If it is unjust, as I believe it is to England, it is far more unjust to Wales. I myself am driven to the conclusion year by year that you will not be able to legislate in harmony with the feeling of the people of Wales until we have some fundamental change in the machinery of Parliament, and I am convinced that such a change must be made before Wales can realise her just aspirations. I beg to support the new clause.
MR. HUMPHREYS-OWEN: I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman opposite to have some consideration for the people of Wales. You are imposing on Wales this Bill against which the Welsh peeple emphatically protest. It is a measure to subsidise the Church of England, and anybody who has the least acquaintance with Welsh social and political life knows perfectly well that one of the great causes of estrangement between Welshmen and Englishmen is the existence of the Established Church in Wales. This proposal may be said to be a somewhat small one and to affect a meritorious class, but small as it is it is none the less irritating. We ourselves complained not long ago against the policy of pin-pricks. This is something more than a pin-prick, because it is opposed to the national sentiment of the country, which has declared itself fully

821
and emphatically against it. By this Bill you are, at the cost of Nonconformists and Churchmen alike, giving relief to the clergy of the Church of England. It is the Church of the rich, and in parish after parish in Wales you will find that the only persons who attend the church are the parson and his family and one or two country gentlemen. The Solicitor-General said that this was not a Disestablishment Debate. But Disestablishment is nevertheless somewhat involved in what we are doing to-night. It is perfectly true that in agricultural districts a considerable portion of the money required will come, not from the country districts, but from the towns; but, for all that, the country districts will still have to pay.
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! The hon. Gentleman is straying from the point.
MR. HUMPHEREYS-OWEN: I was only replying to argument on the other side, but I will not pursue it. Another argument of the Solicitor-General was that the clergy grievance is the same in England and in Wales. We say that by the methods you are adopting you may remedy a clergy grievance, but you are creating a ratepayers' grievance, and therefore you are only shifting the burden. In Wales that grievance will be felt much more strongly than in England, because of the strong hostility between the Church of England and the other denominations. Now, I wish to make an appeal to Churchmen on the other side. Do they think they are really aiding the cause of the Church of England in supporting this Bill?
THE CHAIRMAN: I must call the hon. Member's attention to the fact that the only question before the Committee is whether Wales should or should not be exempt from this Bill.
MR. HUMPHREYS-OWEN: I was trying, I am afraid imperfectly, to bring forward reasons why Wales should be exempt, and I will conclude my remarks by an appeal to Churchmen, in the interests of the Church of England, to grant the concession asked for by this clause.
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: The reasons why this Amendment has been moved have been stated so fully and so well by several Members representing Welsh constituencies that it is not necessary for me, with less perfect knowledge,
822
to go into them at length. Nobody can deny that this is a very reasonable and important Amendment. I am supporting it, politically speaking, very much against my own views, if I have any Party feeling in the matter. That which I should most desire is that this Amendment should be rejected, for I do not know anything that would have a greater effect in eradicating the tares which have been sown in the Liberal wheat in Wales. From that point of view the rejection of the Amendment would be advantageous. It is absolutely impossible that this Government could have proposed a measure which could be more bitterly opposed by the great majority of the people of Wales. The majority of the Welsh people are attached to Nonconformity. That will not be denied for a moment. Hitherto it has been the boast of the Church of England that it relied on its own pecuniary resources. But now for the first time a demand is made on the general taxpayer, who has no particular connection with the Church, to subsidise the clergy of the Established Church. That is an entirely new feature in the relations between the Church and the population, and the Church will no longer be able to say, like the Nonconformist denominations, that it costs nothing to the people. My opinion is that this is an act of injustice generally, but above all it is an act of special injustice to such a population as that of Wales. I have no desire to go into all the considerations which certainly, think, ought to give the Committee pause before passing such a measure as this against the will of the Welsh people. Never was a measure designed by the Imperial Parliament which has more wantonly and more unjustly irritated the sentiments of the Welsh people, and for that reason I shall heartily support the clause.
MR. LONG: The right hon. Gentleman has appealed to us on behalf of Wales not to include Wales in this Bill. I am bound to say I am surprised at the grounds on which the right hon. Gentleman supported the claim made by the Welsh Members. The right hon. Gentleman has referred, as several hon. Members have referred, to the position of the Established Church in Wales, and to the power of the Nonconformists. As my hon. and learned friend said earlier in the evening, nobody here is prepared or desires to contest in the smallest degree

823
the efforts made by Nonconformity in Wales for the progress of Christianity and education. On the contrary we desire heartily to endorse them. That, however is not a question which is germane to the discussion. The right hon. Gentleman, if he desired to support the case of Wales for exemption, ought at least to have shown that the Welsh clerical tithe-owner does not suffer under those disabilities which have been established over and over again during these Debates to exist with regard to clerical tithe-owners in England. Hon. Gentlemen opposite have not attempted to show that there is any other ratepayer whose liability is the same as the clerical owner of tithe or who pays in the same proportion for local expenses. It is rather late in the day now to contest that. It is perfectly well known that the position of the owner of clerical tithe in Wales is not in any degree different from that of the owner of tithe rent-charge in England. No argument has been advanced against that, and that being the case I submit that no ground whatever has been made out for the acceptance of this clause. The Committee has already decided that a certain amount of rate should be repaid, and that a sum should be found from a particular source, and I submit that to exempt Wales on the ground that Nonconformity is in the majority, or that the Established Church is in a minority, or that sectarial differences of opinion, which I hope and believe are subsiding, exist is to make an unreasonable proposition which I hope the Committee will reject.
MR. SAMUEL EVANS: The right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has talked about a subject of which he knows very little. ("No, no.") I do not suppose for a moment that the right hon. Gentleman will contend that he is an authority on ecclesiastical matters in Wales, I have already paid my tribute to the right hon. Gentleman on his conduct of this Bill, but as regards Wales he is not to be regarded as an authority at all. Without going over the ground so excellently traversed by my hon. friends, and so admirably dealt with by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouthshire, I will deal with the matter from a somewhat different standpoint. The case against the Bill does not merely depend upon the injustice of making Wales subscribe out of the taxation of the country for an alien church. If anything, it is still more unjust that
824
the Welsh people should be called upon not merely to contribute to the Church in Wales, but also to contribute very largely to the maintenance of the Church in England. I desire to protest against these public moneys being given to the support of the Church in the Principality, but I still more strongly protest against taking public money out of the pockets of the Welsh taxpayers to support the Church in England. Now, the case lies in a nutshell. The parochial incumbents in Wales do not receive a very large amount of tithe. I believe it will be admitted that, on the whole, the Welsh clergyman has a smaller living on the average than the English clergyman. The whole amount of the tithe rent-charge in the twelve counties of the Principality is £237,000. Therefore, the sum given under this Bill, proportionately speaking, to the Welsh clergymen is not very large. I think the whole sum amounts to something liks £8,000. Twelve counties in England, however, receive in tithe rent-charge exactly ten times as much as the twelve in the Principality. So far as the individual clergyman is concerned, I do not think that many of us on this side of the House would object to the Welsh clergyman having the money. The individual parson in Wales is not a very unpopular person. He is rendered unpopular by reason of the fact that the Establishment is against him, but individually he is regarded as rather a good fellow. Hon. Members who know Wales best can testify to the fact that if there is a worthless son or scallywag he is sent to the Church, and, as a rule, on that very ground he is a very good fellow individually. Whatever you may say about Welsh clergymen, they are really not half as bad beggars as English clergymen are. They receive less money, and they do not complain. Moreover, the Welsh clergymen have not really asked for the money which you are going to give under this Bill. I am sure the hon. Gentleman the Member for Swansea will not get up and say that there has been anything like the demand for this relief among the Welsh clergy that we have seen exhibited in England. But if the Welsh Church is increasing, as has been stated, why do not its supporters maintain their own clergymen if their clergymen desire a better living? I doubt very much whether the House will see going into the Division Lobby in favour

825
of the Government and against this Amendment a single Member for a constituency in Wales. Those Gentleman dare not vote, if they desire to seek re-election, in favour of this Bill. I contend that a hardship arises not only because this money is taken from the pockets of the Welsh taxpayer for the benefit of the Welsh clergymen who are not asking for it, but that given is given in a much larger measure for the support of the clergy of the Church of England. I therefore hope we shall be perfectly solid in opposing the proposal of the Government.
MR. WILLIAM ABRAHAM: In rising at this hour of the morning my only reason is that I want to enter my protest against any further endowment of the Church of England in Wales. Hon. and right hon. Members have said that Wales has no particular grounds of its own for rejecting this Bill. But allow me to say, Sir, that if there were but one, that one being that it is the Church of England in Wales, and not the Church of Wales in Wales, that is sufficiently differential to base upon the plea that it should not be forced upon the Principality. Some of my Welsh friends have urged the argument that the regrettable neglect by the Church of England of the interest of the Welsh people in Wales is a sufficient reason why this Bill should not be applied to Wales. To this I agree. And no one here cares to deny the facts, the historical facts regarding the neglect of the Church in Wales during this period. That regrettable fact is always kept green in the minds of the Welsh people that read the description given of that time by the hymnologist from Pantycelyn when he said—
"Pan oedd cymru gynt yn gonweder meion annuwiol farwol hun Heb na phrespitar na Fieirade Nac un Esgob ar ddihun."
(Loud laughter.) Hon. Members may laugh, but it is too true all the same. What further proof does this House need of the futility of the Church trying to teach the Welsh people religion in a foreign tongue than the fact that even hon. Members laugh at the very same tongue when now used? However, this is not the point I intended to urge upon the consideration of this House when I rose. I think that it is high time that this Debate was risen to a higher ground. The House, so far, has interested itself with what will be effect of this measure upon the mechanism of the Church; but I
826
want to know what effect it will have upon the Church as a moral power in the land. I have been waiting to hear whether some of my Welsh friends on the other side would have a word to say in defence of the real Church in this matter. I freely admit that the Church in Wales has done some good there, during the last decade especially. And I cannot help thinking that that good will be sorely impeded by the effect of this Bill. I freely admit that I did not think there was so much in this Bill until I heard the important statement made by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Agriculture when opposing the Amendment of the hon. gentleman the senior Member for Merthyr. He then said that if that Amendment was carried it would take away 50 per cent. of the funds available for the use of this Bill. If that be the case, and that 50 per cent. of the money for the relief of the clergy is going to come out of a fund which goes to the relief of the poor, what is to become of the relationship between the clergy—the incumbent, the vicar, and especially the curate—that administer to the poor, and the poor which they administer to? One of the great dignitaries of the Church said only the other day "that the people, and especially the poor among the people, should understand and feel that the Church existed for them." If, then, the clergy were going to curtail their contributions to the poor fund to the tune of between £40,000 and £50,000, would they expect the poor in the land to believe any longer that those clergy had any sympathy with them? If, then, the effect of this Bill will be to kill that good feeling between the clergy in the Church and the poor people which they administer to, what will become of the Church—the real moral power of that Church upon the poor which it professes to exist for? Cannot hon. and right hon. Members see that one of the direct effects of this must be to destroy the influence of the Church as a moral power in the land? I would, therefore, appeal to hon. Members for Wales to support this Amendment for the sake of the Church itself. And I would ask them, as members of the Church and its advocates in Wales, to well consider, before casting their votes in this matter, whether it is the interest of the clergy in the Church or the Church itself, including its poor, they are here to defend.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I very much regret that the Members of the Government have not thought fit to tackle the arguments which have been advanced by hon. Members for Wales in favour of this motion. The Solicitor-General objected to the Amendment on purely technical grounds, but surely this matter is far too important to be put aside by the raising of mere technicalities. It is a matter of justice to the whole of the people of the Principality, and a mere technical argument is not a sufficient answer. The President of the Board of Agriculture said that the mere fact that a vast majority of the Welsh people were opposed to the Establishment altogether was a perfectly irrelevant argument. But surely he cannot say that. We pay annually something like £300,000 to the Church out of our national endowment, and the Government come down, in spite of our protest, and say, "We ask you people in Wales to add to that endowment by £8,000 a year." That is a very unfair thing to do. They have excluded Ireland and they have excluded Scotland front the operation of the Bill, but every argument that can be advanced for excluding Ireland and Scotland can also be advanced for excluding Wales. This arrangement is repudiated by the vast majority of the Welsh people. A Welsh nobleman has written a letter within the last few days in which he says that, though a supporter of the Government, he has subscribed quite enough already to the Church of England in Wales, and will not subscribe a single penny piece more towards maintaining a Church whose doctrines are hostile to the Reformation. And yet the people of Wales, four-fifths of whom disbelieve the doctrines of the Church root and branch, are called upon to subscribe, not £50 or £100, but £8,000 a year towards the maintenance of this Church. Surely that is a monstrous proposition, especially in the present state of the Church of England in Wales and outside. I have not heard in the course of this Debate that the main principle laid down by hon. Members for Wales has been challenged, namely, that the vast majority of the people disavow the services of the Church. I submit that that is a very relevant consideration. What is the ground on which this Bill has been introduced? One is that it is for professional services rendered. Who, in Wales, has called for those services? Who wants
828
them? The people say, "We don't want the services." Why should they be called upon to pay for them? How many people came before the Commission to represent the people of Wales? The only layman was the hon. Member for Tunbridge, but he is not a Welsh member. The hon. Member comes from Denbighshire. He toils night and day for the promotion of the interests of our National Church—of the National Church of the Welsh people, so we are told. And yet he has not been able to find a single seat in Wales to return him as a member! (Interruption.) Yes, the hon. Member has not tried, because he knows perfectly well he has not the remotest chance. If his views commended themselves to the people of Denbighshire, where he resides, surely with his ability he would have found a seat in that particular county. And who is the other witness who came before this Commission? He is a Welsh rector. What is his case? He is paid net tithe amounting to £279 2s. 2d. The whole population of his parish is about 450. Four-fifths of the population attend the Calvinistic Methodist place of worship, and very few of the rest ever attend the parish church. Here is a gentleman who is receiving £279 for his services for the whole of the parish, whilst the minister of the real parish church—the minister who attends to four-fifths of the population—is not paid one-half that this gentleman is paid. And yet the rector comes and says, "It is true I do not minister to this population, it is true that I only do one-fifth of the work for which I am paid, but I ask that you should give me a rise in my salary." It is exactly as if the Local Government Board were to impose a medical officer upon a particular district, and, in spite of the fact that the district did not want his services, did not believe in him, and preferred to pay their own doctor, were obliged to appoint him, and give him an increase of salary. Something has been said about hon. Members for Wales who sit on the opposite side. A short time the Leader of the Conservative party in Wales was in the House, but not a word has he said in support of this proposal. I should like to know what he has to say about this Amendment. I see the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmmgham also present. There was a time when he raised his powerful voice in favour of the Welsh people, and when he insisted upon having their grievances redressed in regard to the Church:

829
and yet he is now a member of a Government which seeks to aggravate that grievance, and to impose an additional tax of £8,000 in favour of the Church which he himself once regarded as a source of one of the greatest grievances of the Welsh people. I think we can appeal to him at any rate to put in one word in favour of the people of Wales in this matter. I venture to appeal to the Government, having exempted Ireland from the provisions of the Bill, and having exempted Scotland, to exempt Wales. We are asking nothing which is unfair. The Government have a perfectly loyal and law-abiding
population to deal with, but instead of redressing their grievances they aggravate and intensify them by proposals of this character.
MR. SAMUEL EVANS: May I correct one figure? I gave the sum of £8,000 as being the amount of the tax made upon Wales in regard to this Bill. That figure, I believe, is more accurately stated at something under £6,000.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 120; Noes, 233. (Division List, No. 263.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Goddard, Daniel Frod

Oldroyd, Mark

Asher, Alexander

Gurdon, Sir William Brampton

O'Malley, William

Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)

Barlow, John Emmott

Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Hedderwick, Thonms Chas.H.

Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs, S W

Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

Holland, Wm. H. (York, W. R.)

Power, Patrick Joseph

Billson, Alfred

Horniman, Frederick John

Price, Robert John

Birrell, Augustine

Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

Bolton, Thomas Dolling

Joicey, Sir James

Randell, David

Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

Jones, David Brymnor (Swans'a

Reckett, Harold James

Burns, John

Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.

Rickett, J. Compton

Caldwell, James

Kearley, Hudson E.

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Kilbride, Denis

Robson, William Snowdon

Causton, Richard Knight

Labouchere, Henry

Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Cawley, Frederick

Lambert, George

Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

Channing, Francis Allston

Langley, Batty

Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford)

Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.)

Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Colville, John

Leng, Sir John

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Leuty, Thomas Richmond

Souttar, Robinson

Crilly, Daniel

Lewis, John Herbert

Spicer, Albert

Crombie, John William

Lloyd-George, David

Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.

Curran, Thomas (Sligo,S.)

Logan, John William

Steadman, William Charles

Dalziel, James Henry

Lough, Thomas

Stevenson, Francis S.

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

Macaleese, Daniel

Stuart, James (Shoreditch)

Davitt, Michael

MacDonnell, Dr M A (Queen's C)

Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

Dewar, Arthur

M'Crae, George

Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.

Dillon, John

M'Dermott, Patrick

Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

Donelan, Captain A.

M'Ewan, William

Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.

Doogan, P. C.

M'Ghee, Richard

Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

M'Kenna, Reginald

Wedderburn, Sir William

Duckworth, James

M'Leod, John

Whiteley, George(Stockport)

Dunn, Sir William

Maddison, Fred.

Williams, John Carvell(Notts)

Edwards, Owen Morgan

Maden, John Henry

Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull)

Ellis, John Edward

Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand

Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.

Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Evans, Sir F. H.(S'thampton)

Morgan, W. P.(Merthyr)

Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Hudd'rsf'd

Evershed, Sydney

Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

Woods, Samuel.

Fenwick, Charles

Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

Yoxall, James Henry

Ferguson, R. C. M. (Leith)

Nussey, Thomas Willans

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Flynn, James Christopher

O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.)

Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur

Foster,Sir Walter(Derby Co.)

O'Connor, T. P.(Liverpool)

NOES.

Allhusen, Augustus Henry E.

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

Bill, Charles

Allsopp, Hon. George

Banbury, Frederick George

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Barnes, Frederic Gorell

Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Arnold, Alfred

Bartley, George C. T.

Bousfield, William Robert

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Barton, Dunbar Plunket

Brassey, Albert

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H.(Bristol

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Beckett, Ernest William

Brookfield, A. Montagu

Baillie, JamesE. B.(Inverness)

Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe

Bullard, Sir Harry

Baird, John George Alexander

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Burdett-Coutt, W.

Balcarres, Lord

Beresford, Lord Charles

Butcher, John George

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Carlile, William Walter

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Cavendish, V. C.W.(Derbysh.)

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. Wm.

Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Hanson, Sir Reginald

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Cecil Evelyn (Hertford, East)

Hardy, Laurence

Pender, Sir James

Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Percy, Earl

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.

Henderson, Alexander

Pierpoint, Robert

Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r

Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter

Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton)

Charrington, Spencer

Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol)

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Chelsea, Viscount

Hobhouse, Henry

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A.E.

Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow)

Purvis, Robert

Coddington Sir William

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Rankin, Sir James

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Rentoul, James Alexander

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Houston, R. P.

Richards, Henry Charles

Collins, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Howell, William Tudor

Richardson, Sir T.(Hartlep'l)

Colomb, Sir J. Charles Ready

Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W.

Compton, Lord Alwyne

Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn

Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson

Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W.

Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-

Robertson, Herbert(Hackney)

Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Edw. T. D.

Jebb, Richard Claverhouse

Round, James

Cox, Irwin Edward (Bainbridge

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Royds, Clement Molyneux.

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Jolliffe, Hon. H. George

Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Kemp, George

Rutherford, John

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Kenyon, James

Ryder, John Herbert Dudley

Curzon, Visconnt

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William

Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh

Kimber, Henry

Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. E. J.

Dalkeith, Earl of

Lafone, Alfred

Seton-Karr, Henry

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Laurie, Lieut.-General

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Davies, Sir H. D.(Chatham)

Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)

Sidebottom, T. Harrop (Stalybr

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry)

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm.Edw.H.

Skewes-Cox, Thomas

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

Smith, James P. (Lanarks.)

Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)

Doughty, George

Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset

Spencer, Ernest

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Llewelyn, Sir DillWyn-(Swan.

Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S.

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Doxford, William Theodore

Long, Col. Charles W (Evesham

Stephens, Henry Charles

Drucker, A.

Long, Rt.Hn Walter (L'pool.)

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

Stock, James Henry

Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

Lorne, Marquess of

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Elliot, Hon. H. Ralph Douglas

Lowe, Francis William

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Fardell, Sir T. George

Lowles, John

Sutherland, Sir Thomas

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Finch, George H.

Lucas-Shadwell, William

Thornton, Percy M.

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Macartney, W. G. Ellison

Tollemache, Henry James

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Macdona John Cumming

Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

Fisher, William Hayes

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Valentia, Viscount

Fison, Frederick William

M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W

Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)

Malcolm, Ian

Wanklyn, James Leslie

Foster, Barry S. (Suffolk)

Martin, Richard Biddulph

Ward, Hn. Robert A. (Crewe)

Galloway, William Johnson

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F

Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E.(Kent)

Gedge, Sydney

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

Gibbons, J. Lloyd

Milbank, Sir Powlett C. John

Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (CityofLnd.)

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Wharton, Rt. Hon. John L.

Gilliat, John Saunders

Milton, Viscount

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

Milward, Colonel Victor

Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm

Goldsworthy, Major-General

Montagu, Hn. J.Scott (Hants.)

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Gordon, Hon. John Edward

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (S. G'rge's

More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

Goschen, George J.(Sussex)

Morgan, Hn. Fred (Monm'thsh.

Wylie, Alexander

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Morrell, George Herbert

Wyndham, George

Graham, Henry Robert

Morrison, Walter

Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

Green,WalfordD.(W'dnesbury

Mount, William George

Young, Commander (Berks, E.

Greene, W. R.-(Cambs.)

Muntz, Philip A.

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Murray, Rt Hn A Graham(Bute

Gull, Sir Cameron

Murray, Charles J.(Coventry)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Halsey, Thomas Frederick

Nicholson, William Graham

MR. DALZIEL: I rise to move a motion on behalf of the officials of the House, most of whom have now been on duty fourteen hours. It was never intended that we should sit all night. That is not
832
the usual interpretation of the suspension of the twelve o'clock rule; it was never intended to sit longer than a reasonable time, and have we not on the present occasion sat long enough? There are still

833
several important clauses to be dealt with, and I beg to move that progress be reported and the Debate be adjourned.
Motion made and Question proposed—
"That the Chairman do report progress; and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Dalziel.)
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I do not propose to enter into any recriminatory matter. I would merely point out that although it is perfectly true that the inconvenience caused to all concerned is considerable, some hon. Members on the Opposition side insist upon obstructing the business, and there is no help but to sit on. This afternoon since four o'clock we have discussed a definition clause, a clause dealing with the title of the Bill, and a clause saying when it is to come into operation, and we have been discussing those three clauses ten hours.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I regret the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House will not accede so reasonable a request. When we move Amendments he will not discuss them. As for the amount of work we have done to-night, we have passed three clauses, and in no single case in the time of the last Liberal Government were so many clauses passed at one sitting owing to the tactics of the Opposition. I ask the right hon. Gentleman most earnestly to listen to the appeal of my hon. friend.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I am personally no advocate of long sittings nor of delaying proceedings, and I am bound to say I do not think my hon. friend is unreasonable in asking the Government whether they intend to make the House sit until the rest of the Bill is dealt with. If that is their intention I protest against it. This is not an ordinary Bill; it is merely another added to the many instances I have known of dealing with a Bill before this House in any way but the straightforward way. All the ingenious devices which have been invented do not further the business at all. This Bill is known to be a most objectionable Bill to a large section of the House and country. There is tremendous feeling against it on this side of the House and on the Government side, and Conservative candidates who have stood in the country have repudiated it. I am bound to say I do not think it is respectful to the House for the First Lord
834
of the Treasury to set himself against every Amendment for the purpose of avoiding a discussion on the Report stage, though no doubt it is a clever proceeding. Surely now he is not going to keep us here indefinitely? If he is, all we can do is to divide the House upon this motion, as a protest against such tactics.
MR. FLYNN: I do think it is an unreasonable thing to ask Members to sacrifice their time and jeopardise their health in order that a measure not mentioned in the Queen's Speech should be forced through this House. The Government are acting most unreasonably in making these demands on the Committee and on private Members. Even if we are a minority, we are entitled to consideration. The Welsh Members have devoted to this matter attention and consideration which must have elicited admiration from all sides, while the Irish and Scotch Members have rendered what assistance they could in the Division Lobby. But to say that we shall be doing walking marches all night is an abuse of the power of a strong Government. I hope the Government will acknowledge the reasonableness of the proposal, and, instead of continuing this discussion at this hour, recognise that the Independent Members are entitled to some fair treatment, and ought not to be reduced to a condition of slavery, or at any rate called upon to bear the burdens of the Church Party by sacrificing their time, energy, and health.
MR. LAMBERT: I would venture to appeal to the right hon. Gentleman on behalf of the President of the Board of Agriculture. He has now gone out, doubtless, to seek a little well-deserved refreshment.
MR. BOUSFIELDrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put;" but the Chairman withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.
MR. LAMBERT: He has been sitting in close attendance on this Bill, and I notice he is requested to attend at 11.45 this morning for the purpose of guiding his Lands Improvement Bill through the Standing Committee on Law. We have a great respect for the President of the Board of Agriculture, who is so interested

835
in his Department, and we would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to spare him this unnecessary sitting up in the small hours of the morning.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 107; Noes, 216. (Division List, No. 264.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Hedderwick, Thomas Chas. H.

Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs. S W

Asher, Alexander

Holland, W. H. (York, W.R.)

Power, Patrick Joseph

Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)

Horniman, Frederick John

Price, Robert John

Barlow, John Emmott

Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Joicey, Sir James

Randell, David

Billson, Alfred

Jones, D. Brymnor (Swansea)

Reckitt, Harold James

Birrell, Augustine

Jones, Wm.(Carnarvonshire)

Rickett, J. Compton

Bolton, Thomas Dolling

Kilbride, Denis

Roberts, John H.(Denbighs)

Burns, John

Labouchere, Henry

Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Caldwell, James

Lambert, George

Scott, Chas. Prestwich(Leigh)

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Langley, Batty

Shaw, Charles Edw.(Stafford)

Channing, Francis Allston

Leese, Sir J. F.(Accrington)

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.)

Leng, Sir John

Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarshi'e

Colville, John

Leuty, Thomas Richmond

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Lewis, John Herbert

Souttar, Robinson

Crilly, Daniel

Lloyd-George, David

Spicer, Albert

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Logan, John William

Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.

Curran, Thomas(Sligo,S.)

Lough, Thomas

Steadman, William Charles

Dalziel, James Henry

Macaleese, Daniel

Stevenson, Francis S.

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

Mac Donnell, Dr M A (Queen'sC.

Stuart, James (Shoreditch)

Davitt, Michael

M'Crae, George

Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

Donelan, Captain A.

M'Dermott, Patrick

Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Doogan, P. C.

M'Ewan, William

Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark)

M'Ghee, Richard

Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.

Duckworth, James

M'Kenna, Reginald

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Dunn, Sir William

M'Leod, John

Wedderburn, Sir William

Edwards, Owen Morgan

Maddison, Fred.

Whiteley, George (Stockport)

Ellis, John Edward

Maden, John Henry

Williams, John Carvell (Notts.

Evans, Samuel T.(Glamotgan)

Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand

Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull)

Evershed, Sydney

Morgan, W. P. (Merthyr)

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

Fenwick, Charles

Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

Woodhouse SirJ. T (Huddersf'd

Ferguson, R.C. Munro(Leith)

Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport

Woods, Samuel

Flynn, James Christopher

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Yoxall, James Henry

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Oldroyd, Mark

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)

Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur.

Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale-

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

NOES.

Allhusen, Augustus Hen. Eden

Brassey, Albert

Curzon, Viscount

Allsopp, Hon. George

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Brookfield, A. Montagu

Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Bullard, Sir Harry

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Arnold, Alfred

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Carlile, William Walter

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

Doughty, George

Baird, John G. Alexander

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Doughlas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Balcarres, Lord

Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)

Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S.

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r.

Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

Doxford, William Theodore

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.

Drucker, A.

Banbury, Frederick George

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc.

Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

Barnes, Frederic Gorell

Charrington, Spencer

Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. S.-(Hunts)

Chelsea, Viscount

Elliott, Hon. A. Ralph D.

Bartley, George C. T.

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Fardell, Sir T. George

Barton, Dunbar Plunket

Coddington, Sir William

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Finch, George H.

Beckett, Ernest William

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe

Colomb, SirJohn Charles Ready

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Compton, Lord Alwyne

Fisher, William Hayes

Beresford, Lord Charles

Cornwallis, F. Stanley W.

Fison, Frederick William

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.

Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

Bonsor, Henry Cosmo orme

Galloway, William Johnson

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton

Gedge, Sydney

Bousfield, William Robert

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Gibbons, J. Lloyd

Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond

Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham

Ritchie, Rt. Hn. (Chas. Thomson

Gilliat, John Saunders

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (L'pool)

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

Round, James

Goldsworthy, Major-General

Lorne, Marquess of

Royds, Clement(Molyneux)

Gordon, Hon. John Edward

Lowe, Francis William

Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

Gosehen, R Hn. G. J. (St George's

Lowles, John

Rutherford, John

Gosehen, George J.(Sussex)

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Ryder, John Herbert Dudley

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Lucas-Shadwell, William

Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles

Graham, Henry Robert

Macartney, W.G. Ellison

Saunderson, Rt Hon Col Edw. J.

Gray, Ernest(West Ham)

Macdona, John Cumming

Seton-Karr, Henry

Green, W. D.(Wednesbnry)

Maclver, David (Liverpool)

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

M'Iver, Sir L. (Edinbugh W.)

Skewes-Cox, Thomas

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Malcolm, Ian

Smith, James P.(Lanarks.)

Gull, Sir Cameron

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Spencer, Ernest

Halsey, Thomas Frederick

Milbank, Sir Powlett Charles J.

Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. W.

Milner, Sir Frederick George

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M.

Hanson, Sir Reginald

Milton, Viscount

Stock, James Henry

Hardy, Laurence

Milward, Colonel Victor

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Henderson, Alexander

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol)

More, Robt. Fasper (Shropshire

Thornton, Percy M.

Hobhouse, Henry

Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh

Tollemache, Henry James

Holland, Hon. Lionel R. (Bow)

Morrell, George Herbert

Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Morrison, Walter

Valentia, Viscount

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

Wanklyn, James Leslie

Houston, R. P.

Mount, William George

Ward, Hon. R. A.(Crewe)

Howell, William Tudor

Muntz, Philip A.

Warde, Lieut.-Col.C.E.(Kent)

Hozier, Hon. James H. Cecil

Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute

Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn

Murray, C.J.(Coventry)

Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-

Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath

Wharton, Rt. Hon. Jno. Lloyd

Jebb, Richard Claverhouse

Nicholson, William Graham

Williams, Colonel R.(Dorset)

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm

Jolliffe, Hon. H. George

Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Kemp, George

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Kenyon, James

Pender, Sir James

Wilson J. W. (Worcestersh., N.)

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William

Pierpoint, Robert

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Kimber, Henry

Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton

Wylie, Alexander

Lafone, Alfred

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Wyndham, George

Laurie, Lieut-General

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

Lawson, John Grant(Yorks.)

Purvis, Robert

Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry

Rankin, Sir James

Young, Commander (Berks,E.)

Lees, Sir Elliot(Birkenhead)

Rentoul, James Alexander

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Richards, Henry Charles

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset)

Richardson, Sir Thos. (Hartlep'l

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W.

MR. HUMPHREYS-OWEN: The Amendment I have to move is one which will commend itself to all Members. It is a very well recognised view that, in order to have purity in dealing with public money, it is important that you should identify the persons to whom the money should go. In this instance you are providing considerable sums of money from public funds for the relief of certain clergymen in different counties and county boroughs in England Wales. It is obvious that it is desirable that the expenditure of these sums of money, coming as they do entirely out of the funds at the disposal of the councils, should be scrutinised with the same minuteness as is applied by these bodies to expenditure of their ordinary funds. I have here the accounts of the county council of my own county, and to give a specimen of the careful way in
838
which the ratepayers are informed, not only of the amounts spent, but to whom they are given, I will give one or two items. There is an allowance of £1 15s. to a police-constable, 15s. to a lady, and £1 3s. 4d. to a P.C. Lewis, and so on. It is equally desirable that the clergy—who are public officers, now to receive distinct grants out of the public funds—should be shown in the same way in the accounts of the county councils from whom they receive the grants. I therefore move the Amendment.
New clause:—
"The Commissioners of Inland Revenue shall, not more than eight days after they have, under the provisions of this Act, paid any moneys in respect of any rate on tithe rent-charge, make out and forward to the council of the county borough or administrative county wherein the hereditaments out of which that

839
tithe rent-charge arises are situate, a certificate stating the amount of the payment and the name of the benefice to which the tithe rent-charge is attached."—(Mr. Humphreys-Owen.)
Brought up and read the first time.
Motion made and Question proposed, "That the clause be read a second time."
MR. LONG: The suggestion made in the proposed new clause is a very admirable one, but it is quite unnecessary; because, as a matter of fact, this information is conveyed at the present times and a Return as far as possible made to Parliament in each case for the purposes of those interested. The county councils will obtain information in precisely the same way as they now obtain information in regard to other payments. It would be extremely inconvenient and entirely contrary to practice to cast a statutory obligation upon a Government Department to make these Returns. The information must be provided, and will be provided. The Return will be made in the ordinary course of things, and when moved for by an ordinary Member it would be granted as an unopposed Return. I must therefore ask the Committee to reject this clause.
MR. BRYNMOR JONES: The right hon. Gentleman has altogether failed to see the real reason why this additional check is required. He says the matter is without precedent, but I am inclined to think that the whole of the first clause of this Bill, so far as the machinery is concerned, is without precedent, when one comes to consider how the matter will work out in practice from the point of view of the local government authorities. The Bill says:
"The remaining half shall, on demand being made by the collector of rates on the Surveyor of Taxes for the district, be paid by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue out of the sums payable by them to the Local Taxation Account."
The reason my hon. friend desires that there should be within eight days a communication from the Commissioners of Inland Revenue to the County Council, is to see that there is nothing irregular, either on the part of the tithe-owner, the collector of rates, or the Surveyor of Taxes. It is useless to tell us that if we desire to see that the Act is applied with absolute accuracy we may correct the matter about twelve months after the
840
transaction by asking for a Return in Parliament, which everybody knows we cannot get unless the Government of the day happen to consent to it. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the mover of this clause is actuated purely and solely by the desire to get the measure into working shape, and to prevent any irregularities whatsoever.
MR. SAMUEL EVANS: Under this Bill the Commissioners of Inland Revenue are to be called upon to pay, not to the county to which it belongs, or ought to belong, but to somebody else, a large sum Of money. Is it unfair to ask that the county council should be informed of what has become of this money? There could not be a more reasonable or necessary Amendment than this proposed new clause. The right hon. Gentleman said there is no precedent for such a course. That cannot be so. Constantly, in Irish and in English Acts of Parliament, you have an obligation put upon public bodies to make Returns to Parliament, and Returns are constantly made. We are told that the information will be laid upon the Table of the House in the shape of Returns. But it is important, in order to have a check upon these various claims which will be made for the remission of half the rates, to have not merely the total amount given, but the individual items. I do not know whether the local authorities are bound to give the particulars of the various benefices to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue: we have not been told that they must. All the rating authorities have to do is to certify what is the amount they require to make up the half of the rates they have remitted, and the Commissioners are bound to pay that sum. If they refused, there would be a remedy against them in the Courts of Law by mandamus or otherwise. What check have they that the half of the rates which are asked for are rates which have to be remitted? But if you, by this clause, compel them to make this Return to the county councils, the Commissioners of Inland Revenue will be entitled to ask the various rating authorities for the particulars showing how the sum asked for is made up. Supposing this were money belonging to an individual instead of to a county council, can anybody say, with any fairness at all, that it is not right and proper that the individual who otherwise would

841
have received the money should have a full and detailed account of the money which has been paid to somebody else on his behalf? That is the sole object of the clause. If this is a reasonable and proper Amendment, as the right hon. Gentleman has admitted it is, it ought to be inserted in the Bill. The object of the Government in refusing these Amendments is to avoid the Report stage, when we could again bring forward our arguments. That is the object of the Report stage. The Government, if they are logical, will move that hereafter there shall be no Report stage at all. That is a much better and simpler way, and if they did that they would be forging a weapon which we should be able to use against them at no very distant date.
MR. LAMBERT: I had thought myself of moving an Amendment, for the county councils are really anxious that there shall not be more money deducted from their local funds than is absolutely necessary, and they want a thoroughly efficient check over the money taken out of the Local Taxation Account. May I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman the desirability of putting into the Bill some machinery whereby a greater check can be placed upon the expenditure of this money. This is a matter of great importance to the county council, and the suggestion I have made is one which has the approval of the officials of the Devon County Council.
MR. H. S. SAMUEL: I think the Amendment of my hon. friend is a very important one, which everyone must see is absolutely necessary if the county council is to have any check upon the expenditure of the money. This money belongs to the county council in the first place, and we propose to intercept money which should go into the county fund, and the proposal is that every collector of taxes should make a Return to the county council to show exactly the amount of money that is charged to that particular county. I may say that that is what is done at the present time in reference to main roads. I can conceive of a large amount of money being charged if the collectors were so inclined, for they could send anything up to the Inland Revenue Commissions unless the county council had some check over them. I
842
think this is a very important Amendment, and I hope my hon. friend will press it to a Division.
MR. LOGAN: No matter what protests we may make, it seems to me that the Committee stage is practically passed, for the Government have decided to refuse all Amendments, no matter how important they are. The right hon. Gentleman admits that this is a very reasonable Amendment.
MR. LONG: What I said was, that what the hon. Member desired was reasonable, but his Amendment was perfectly unnecessary.
MR. LOGAN: The right hon. Gentleman admits that the object at which my hon. friend is aiming is perfectly reasonable, therefore it seems to me that he ought to accept this Amendment. We want to see that these accounts are properly kept, and, above all, I desire that the Inland Revenue Commissioners and the rating authorities should be perfectly certain that the moneys should be collected from the proper quarter, and for this reason I shall support the Amendment. I also desire that the ratepayers in the locality should know the names of these gentlemen who, in future, will receive outdoor relief at our expense, and I wish to see their names published, so that we shall know whom we have got to keep out of our hard earnings.
MR. DALZIEL: I rise to ask the right hon. Gentleman what he means when he says that this new clause is unnecessary, for in his first speech he told us the suggestion was an admirable one. He says that this will be carried out by the Bill as it stands, but is the right hon. Gentleman accurate when he says that? My hon. friend asks that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue shall within eight days send a Return of where the money has been expended. That certainly will not be carried out by the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman. As you are taking money from the ratepayers in certain areas, surely it is a small request to ask that you should give them an account within a reasonable time as to how the money has been spent. I think the Amendment is quite reasonable, but reasonableness has no attraction so far as this Committee is concerned.
MR. STUART: What I desire to see is that some sound financial position should be adopted. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to speak on behalf of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, but I think he ought to assure us that at least attention has been properly given by the Government to this question.
MR. LONG: I cannot possibly undertake to say that this can be done, because it would be clearly against the best possible information and advice we have received with regard to the operation of this Act.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: The position now taken up by the right hon. Gentleman is that he will give us information and let us know something about what happens in good time, but our point is will he give information with regard to each individual case? In the Education Department we get Returns with regard to every school board in the country, and we get full information with regard to the different grants. But in regard to Voluntary schools an attempt was made to secure a Return in regard to voluntary subscriptions, but we have not been able to get any information. We have made an appeal upon this question to the Vice-President of the Council, but he refers us to somebody else, and nobody seems prepared to carry out the promise which was given us to supply this information in regard to the Voluntary schools. We know from experience the value of these indefinite vague undertakings. If the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Agriculture gave us his word we know what it would mean, but he declines to give it. I remember what happened when one of the great measures of this Government dealing with prison made goods was passed by this House. The President of the Board of Trade then undertook that he would give us a Return as to the operation of the Bill, and we asked for a statutory obligation to that effect. The President of the Board of Trade promised to give us that Return, but it has never been published up to this day. If a statutory obligation had been inserted in that Bill, we should have had that Return, and the Department dare not have refused it; but we have been relying upon these vague voluntary promises which are never
844
carried out. I do not say that the right hon. Gentleman did not intend to carry out his promise, but it has not been done.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. RITCHIE,): Will the hon. Gentleman quote the promise?
MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I cannot turn up the passage in Hansard just at the moment, but I will ask the right hon. Gentleman if he denies that he promised that such a Return would be made?
MR. RITCHIE: What Return?
MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: It was a Return as to the goods manufactured in foreign prisons. In the Bill we are now considering, the county council has no opportunity of scrutinising and overhauling these proceeding. I would point out to the Committee that merely providing for accounts from the surveyor of taxes is not a sufficient guarantee that the thing will be done thoroughly, for sometimes you get very competent officials and sometimes you do not. Occasionally you get gentlemen who are strongly in sympathy with the local clergymen. In some areas you have got forty or fifty parishes, and how is the surveyor of taxes going to examine the separate accounts kept in all those parishes, for it is no business of the collectors to audit the accounts, for his duty is simply to get as much money as he can out of the Government. Therefore, the surveyor of taxes has no access to the assessment account except by making a visit to each of these forty or fifty parishes, which is practically impossible. The result will be that under the proposal of the Government these duties will be perfunctorily performed, and these demand notes presented by the local collector of taxes will be accepted without any scrutiny at all, because the account will be paid by someone in London. This is the way in which the finances of the country are to be conducted, and I should like to know if the right hon. Gentleman can produce a single precedent for this proposal. Somebody should be appointed to inquire into the matter. When the Agricultural Rating Bill was before the House we raised the point then. We said we had really no check. But we were told we had the surveyor of taxes. I make no complaint against the surveyor of taxes,

845
but you are asking him to do a thing for which he has no machinery or officers on which to rely. If the clause of my hon. friend were adopted, it would be a totally different thing. The county councils have representatives in every parish, and they could make inquiries. Supposing a Return came down, in eight days the Members of the Finance Committee coming from every part of the country would go through the accounts, and carefully scrutinise the demand. These safeguards are not desired by the Govern-
ment. All they require is that their friends should pillage all they can out of the taxation of the country.
Mr. LONGrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be, now put."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 202; Noes, 97. (Division List, No. 265.)

AYES.

Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden

Doughty, George.

Lea, Sir Thomas(Londonderry

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S.

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Arnold, Alfred

Doxford, William Theodore

Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset)

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Drucker, A.

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

Long, Col. Charles W. (Eveshan

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

Long, Rt Hn. Walter (Liverpool

Baird, J. George Alexander

Finch, George H.

Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

Barres, Lord

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Lorne, Marquess of

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Lowe, Francis William

Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds)

Fisher, William Hayes

Lowles, John

Banbury, Frederick George

Fison, Frederick William

Lucas-Shadwell, William

Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. S.-(Hunts.)

Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)

Macartney, W. G. Ellison

Bartley, George C.T.

Galloway, William Johnson

Macdona, John Cumming

Barton, Dunbar Plunket

Gedge, Sydney

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir. M. H. (Br'st'l)

Gibbons, J. Lloyd

M'lver, Sir L. (Edinburgh,W.)

Beckett, Ernest William

Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (C. of Lond.)

Malcolm, Ian

Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe

Godson, Sir Augustus Fred.

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Goldsworthy, Major-General

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Beresford, Lord Charles

Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (St. Geo,'s

Milbank, Sir Powlett Charles J.

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Goschen, George J.(Sussex)

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Milner, Sir Frederick George

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Graham, Henry Robert

Milton, Viscount

Bousfield, William Robert

Gray, Ernest(West Ham)

Milward, Colonel Victor

Brassey, Albert

Green, Walford D.(Wedn'sbury

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs).

More, Robt. Jasper (Shropsh.)

Brookfield, A. Montagu

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)

Bullard, Sir Harry

Gull, Sir Cameron

Morrell, George Herbert

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Morrison, Walter

Carlile, William Walter

Halsey, Thomas Frederick

Morton, Arthur HA (Deptford)

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo.

Mount, William George

Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbysh.)

Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robt. Wm.

Muntz, Philip A.

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Hanson, Sir Reginald

Murray, Rt Hn. A. Grahm. (Bute

Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)

Hardy, Laurence

Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)

Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm

Henderson, Alexander

Nicholson, William Graham

Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r)

Hill, Sir Edward Stock (Bristol)

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Charrington, Spencer

Hobhouse, Henry

Northcote, Hon. Sir H. S.

Chelsea, Viscount

Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow)

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E.

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Pender, Sir James

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Pierpoint, Robert

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Howell, William Tudor

Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton)

Colomb, Sir John C. Ready

Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Compton, Lord Alwyne

Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Cornwallis, F. Stanley W.

Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-

Purvis, Robert

Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.

Jebb, Richard Claverhouse

Rankin, Sir James.

Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Rentoul, James Alexander

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Jolliffe, Hon. H. George

Richards, Henry Charles

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Kemp, George

Richardson, Sir Thos. (Hartlep'l

Curzon, Viscount

Kenyon, James

Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W.

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William

Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)

Kimber, Henry

Robertson, Herbert(Hackney)

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Lafone, Alfred

Round, James

Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

Laurie, Lieut.-General

Royds, Clement Molynenx

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)

Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

Rutherford, John

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Ryder, John Herbert Dudley

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Sandys, Lieut.-Col. T. Myles

Thornton, Percy M.

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh., N.

Seton-Karr, Henry

Tollemache, Henry James

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

Wylie, Alexander

Skewes-Cox, Thomas

Valentia, Viscount

Wyndham, George

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

Wanklyn, James Leslie

Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Ward, Hon. Robert A.(Crewe)

Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

Spencer, Ernest

Warde, Lieut.-Col. C.E.(Kent

Young, Commander(Berks.E.)

Stanley, Hon. Arthr. (Ormskirk

Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Stock, James Henry

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm

NOES.

Abraham, W. (Rhondda)

Horniman, Frederick John

Power, Patrick Joseph

Asher, Alexander

Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

Price, Robert John

Austin, M. (Limerick, W)

Joicey, Sir James

Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

Barlow, John Emmott

Jones, D. Brymnor (Swansea)

Randell, David

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

Reckitt, Harold James

Billson, Alfred

Kilbride, Denis

Rickett, J. Compton

Birrell, Augustine

Labouchere, Henry

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

Bolton, Thomas Dolling

Lambert, George

Samuel, J.(Stockton on Tees)

Burns, John

Langley, Batty

Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

Caldwell, James

Lawson-Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Channing, Francis Allston

Leuty, Thomas Richmond

Sinclair, Capt, John (Forfarshire

Clark, Dr. G. B.(Caithness)

Lewis, John Herbert

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Colville, John

Lloyd-George, David

Souttar, Robinson

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Logan, John William

Spicer, Albert

Crilly, Daniel

Macaleese, Daniel

Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.

Curran, Thomas(Sligo, S.)

MacDonnell, Dr M A (Queen'sC)

Steadman, William Charles

Dalziel, James Henry

M'Crae, George

Stevenson, Francis S.

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

M'Dermott, Patrick

Stuart, James (Shoreditch)

Davitt, Michael

M'Ewan, William

Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

Donelan, Captain A.

Ghee, Richard

Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)

Doogan, P. C.

M'Kenna, Reginald

Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark)

M'Leod, John

Warner, Thomas CourtenayT.

Duckworth, James

Maddison, Fred.

Wedderburn, Sir William

Edwards, Owen Morgan

Maden, John Henry

Whiteley, George (Stockport)

Ellis, John Edward

Morgan, W. P. (Merthyr)

Williams, John Carvell (Notts)

Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

Wilson, H. J. (York, W.R.)

Fenwick, Charles

Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)

Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudder'd

Ferguson, R. C. Munro(Leith

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Yoxall, James Henry

Flynn, James Christopher

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Oldroyd, Mark

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)

Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur.

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Hedderwick, Thomas C. H.

Pilkington, Sir G. A (Lancs, S W)

Question put accordingly, "That the clause be read a second time."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 97; Noes, 202. (Division List, No. 266.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale-

Asher, Alexander

Dalziel, James Henry

Hedderwick, Thomas C. H.

Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardig'n)

Horniman, Frederick John

Barlow, John Emmott

Davitt, Michael

Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Donelan, Captain A.

Joicey, Sir James

Billson, Alfred

Doogan, P. C.

Jones, David Brynmor (Swans.)

Birrell, Augustine

Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark)

Jones, William (Carn'rvonshire

Bolton, Thomas Dolling

Duckworth, James

Kilbride, Denis

Burns, John

Edwards, Owen Morgan

Labouchere, Henry

Caldwell, James

Ellis, John Edward

Lambert, George

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan)

Langley, Batty

Channing, Francis Allston

Fenwick, Charles

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'l'nd

Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.)

Ferguson, R. C. M. (Leith)

Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

Colville, John

Flynn, James Christopher

Leuty, Thomas Richmond

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Lewis, John Herbert

Crilly, Daniel

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir W.

Lloyd-George, David

Pease, J. A. (Northumb.)

Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.

Logan, John William

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Steadman, William Charles

Macaleese, Daniel

Pilkington, Sir G. A. (Lancs S W)

Stevenson, Francis S.

MacDonnell, Dr. M. A. (Qu'n's C

Power, Patrick Joseph

Stuart, James (Shoreditch)

M'Crae, George

Price, Robert John

Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

M'Dermott, Patrick

Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)

M'Ewan, William

Randell, David

Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr)

M'Ghee, Richard

Reckitt, Harold James

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

M'Kenna, Reginald

Rickett, J. Compton

Wedderburn, Sir William

M'Leod, John

Roberts, John H.(Denbighs.)

Whiteley, George(Stockport)

Maddison, Fred.

Samuel,J.(Stockton-on-Tees)

Williams, John Carvell (Notts.)

Maden, John Henry

Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.

Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merth'r

Shaw, Charles E.(Stafford)

Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd

Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Yoxall, James Henry

Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.)

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Souttar, Robinson

Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur

Oldroyd, Mark

Spicer, Albert

NOES.

Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden

Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

Kimber, Henry

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Lafone, Alfred

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Doughty, George

Laurie, Lieut.-General

Arnold, Alfred

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S.

Lea, Sir Thos. (Londonderry)

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Doxford, William Theodore

Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Drucker, A.

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Baird, John George Alexander

Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset)

Balcarres, Lord

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Ed ward

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

Finch, George H.

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverp'l)

Banbury, Frederick George

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts

Fisher, William Hayes

Lorne, Marquess of

Bartley, George C. T.

Fison, Frederick William

Lowe, Francis William

Barton, Dunbar Plunket

Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)

Lowles, John

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol

Galloway, William Johnson

Lucas-Shadwell, William

Beckett, Ernest William

Gedge, Sydney

Macartney, W. G. Ellison

Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe

Gibbons, J. Lloyd

Macdona, John Cumming

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lon)

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Beresford, Lord Charles

Godson, Sir Augustus Fred.

M'Iver, Sir L.(Edinburgh, W.)

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Goldsworthy, Major-General

Malcolm, Ian

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Goschen, Rt. Hn G J (St George's

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W F.

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Goschen, George J.(Sussex)

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Bousfield, William Robert

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas. J.

Brassey, Albert

Graham, Henry Robert

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Milner, Sir Frederick George

Brookfield, A. Montagu

Green, Walford D (Wednesbury

Milton, Viscount

Bullard, Sir Harry

Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.

Milward, Colonel Victor

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Carlile, William Walter

Gull, Sir Cameron

More, Robert J.(Shropshire)

Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs.)

Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'th S h

Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbysh.)

Halsey, Thomas Frederick

Morrell, George Herbert

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George

Morrison, Walter

Cecil, Evelyn(Hertford, East)

Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert W.

Morton, Arthur HA(Deptford)

Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

Hanson, Sir Reginald

Mount, William George

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

Hardy, Laurence

Muntz, Philip A.

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Murray, Rt. Hn. A.G.(Bute)

Charrington, Spencer

Henderson, Alexander

Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)

Chelsea, Viscount

Hill, Sir Edward Stock (Bristol)

Murray, Col. W yndham(Bath)

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Hobhouse, Henry

Nicholson, William Graham

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow)

Nicol Donald Ninian

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Northcote, Hon Sir H Stafford

Colomb, Sir John Charles R.

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Compton, Lord Ailwyn

Howell, William Tudor

Pender, Sir James

Cornwallis, F. Stanley W.

Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

Pierpoint, Robert

Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.

Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn

Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton)

Cox, Irwin E. Bainbridge

Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Cross, Alexander(Glasgow)

Jebb, Richard Claverhouse

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Purvis, Robert

Curzon, Viscount

Jolliffe, Hon. H. George

Rankin, Sir James

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Kemp, George

Rentoul, James Alexander

Davies, Sir Horatio D.(Chat.)

Kenyon, James

Richards, Henry Charles

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William

Richardson, Sir Thos(Hartlop'l

Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chs. Thomson

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M.

Williams, Jos. Powell-(Birm.)

Robertson, Herbert(Hackney)

Stock, James Henry

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Round, James

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh N.)

Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Rutherford, John

Thornton, Percy M.

Wylie, Alexander

Ryder, John Herbert Dudley

Tollemache, Henry James

Wyndham, George

Sandys, Lieut.-Col. T. Myles

Tominson, Wm. Edw. Murray

Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

Seton-Karr, Henry

Valentia, Viscount

Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Wanklyn, James Leslie

Young, Commander(Berks,E.)

Skewer-Cox, Thomas

Ward, Hon. Robert A.(Crewe)

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

Warde, Lieut.-Col. C.E.(Kent

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Smith, Hon. W.F. D.(Strand)

Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

Spencer, Ernest

Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)

Wharton, Rt. Hon. J. Lloyd

MR. D. A. THOMAS MR. D. A. THOMAS moved, "That the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again," but the Chairman, being of opinion that the motion was an abuse of the rules of the House, declined to propose the Question thereupon to the Committee.
THE CHAIRMAN: The next Amendment in order is the second Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Mid-Glamorganshire.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: On a point of order, I wish to ask whether the Amendment of the hon. Member for Shoreditch is not in order. What he proposes is to insert the following clause:
"For the purposes of this Act returns shall be made annually, and presented to Parliament by the Local Government Board—

"(a) By every rating authority, showing the sums actually exempted by them in respect of the rating of tithes in accordance with the provisions of this Act.

"(b) By the Local Government Board, showing for each county and county borough the total amount of rates exempted by this Act, and the amount by which the Exchequer contribution fund of each county and county borough falls short in consequence of the payment out of the Local Taxation Account under provisions of this Act."

That is taken bodily out of the Agricultural Rating Act, and is for a similar purpose. Therefore I submit it is in order and not inconsistent with anything that has been done.
THE CHAIRMAN: That Amendment deals with the same subject matter as the clause which the Committee has just refused to accept. The subject is not dealt with in the same way, but the subject matter is the same, and the clause should properly come as an Amendment to the clause which has been rejected.
MR. SAMUEL EVANS: If this Amendment were in the hands of anyone else I should be inclined to describe it as a most important Amendment, and I should deplore that it had to be taken at such an hour of the morning. It is not my fault that the clause smacks of language somewhat of an ecclesiastical character, but it is absolutely accurate in accordance with the form of the writ in such cases. The clause reads as follows:—
"This Act shall not apply while the said tithe rent-charge, or any other fruits, profits, oblations, obventions, ecclesiastical rights, or emoluments of or attaching to the benefice shall be sequestered by a writ of fieri facias de bonis ecclesiasticis or any other writ of sequestration."
Sequestration in clerical affairs is really bankruptcy. If a man in such circumstances were not a clergyman he would be called a bankrupt. The reason why a separate writ has to be issued is that a clergyman's goods are supposed to be of a somewhat sacred character, and are not to be touched by lay hands. In ordinary life a man whose goods are seized by an Official Receiver is termed a bankrupt, and he is not able to fulfil ordinary civic duties or obligations. If he be a member of a school board or of a board of guardians he ceases to be a member. A Member of this House may be guilty of all sorts of things, but he must not be a bankrupt. If he is he ceases to be a Member. But, curiously enough, until the Clergy Discipline Act of a few years ago a living could not by any proceeding be taken out of the hands of the holder of a benefice even though he were a bankrupt. Even now a distinction is made. It is assumed unless the bishop takes proceedings that a clergyman is fit to preach to his congregation that they ought to pay their debts, and to render unto

853
Cæsar that which is his, although he himself cannot pay his creditors. Under such circumstances it cannot be right that the tithe rent-charge attached to a benefice which is sequestrated should be free from rates. Everyone will admit that. When he ceases to enjoy the profits of the benefice by reason of having got into difficulties with his creditors, surely the reason for exemption no longer applies, and there is no reason why the creditors should be entitled to the relief. Everything that he has is seized under this writ.
New clause (provisions as to sequestrated benefices)—(Mr. Samuel
Evans)—brought up, and read the first time.
Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."
SIR R. B. FINLAY: The hon. Member has forgotten that a writ of sequestration is an execution rather than a bankruptcy. I trust he will not seriously press this clause. May I point out that the maintenance of proper services in the parish is a first charge on the revenue of the living, even though it be under sequestration. Sequestration, too, does not last a very long time, for, if it is likely to, then pro-
vision is made for removing the clergyman from the benefice. Take an ordinary case where a writ is in force for a short time. Surely it would be extremely inconvenient to have to make a certain abatement of rates for say a period of six weeks? Would it not be more convenient that the same rule should continue to apply, even if there be a temporary execution in force? I hope the hon. and learned Member will not press the Amendment.
MR. M'KENNA: The suggestion of the Solicitor-General seems to be that, inasmuch as a writ of sequestration only lasts a short period, this Amendment is unnecessary. But this Bill is also only to last a brief time, and it is quite possible that a writ of sequestration may run the whole length of its duration. I think my hon. friend has made out a clear case in favour of this Amendment, although it is evident that the Government had determined to accept no alteration that is proposed, however valuable it may be.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 97; Noes, 201. (Division List, No. 267.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm.

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Asher, Alexander

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Austin, M.(Limerick, W.)

Hedderwick, Thomas C. H.

Oldroyd, Mark

Barlow, John Emmott

Hornman, Frederick John

Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.

Bayley, Thomas(Derbyshire)

Humpheys-Owen, Arthur C.

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Billson, Alfred

Joicey, Sir James

Pilkingion, Sir Geo A (Lancs S W

Birrell, Augustine

Jones, David B.(Swansea)

Power, Patrick Joseph

Bolton, Thomas Dolling

Jones, W.(Carnarvonshire)

Price, Robert John.

Burns, John

Kilbriile, Denis

Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

Caldwell, James

Labouchere, Henry

Randell, David

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Lambert, George

Reckitt, Harold James

Channing, Francis Allston

Langley, Batty

Rickett, J. Compton

Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.)

Lawson, Sir W.(Cumberland)

Roberts, John H.(Denbighs.)

Colville, John

Leese, Sir J. F.(Accrington)

Samuel, J.(Stockton-on-Tees)

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Leuty, Thomas Richmond

Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

Crilly, Daniel

Lewis, John Herbert

Shaw, Charles Edw.(Stafford)

Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

Lloyd-George, David

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Dalziel, James Henry

Logan, John William

Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.)

Davies, M. V.-(Cardigan)

Macaleese, Daniel

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Davitt, Michael

Mac Donnell, Dr. M. A. (Q's C.)

Souttar, Robinson

Donelan, Captain A.

M'Arthur, William (Cornwall

Spicer, Albert

Doogan, P. C.

M'Crae, George.

Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.

Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark)

Dermott, Patrick

Steadman, William Charles

Duckworth, James

M'Ewan, William

Steadman, William Charles

Edwards, Owen Morgan

M'Ghee, Richard

Stevenson, Francis S.

Ellis, John Edward

M'Leod, John

Stuart, James (Shoreditch)

Fenwick, Charles

Maddison, Fred.

Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

Ferguson, R. C. Munro(Leith)

Maden, John Henry

Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Flynn, James Christopher

Morgan, W. P. (Merthr)

Thomas, D. A. (Merthyr)

Gladstone, Rt. Hon. H. John

Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Morton, E. J. C.(Devonport)

Wedderburn, Sir William

Wilson, Henry J.(York, W.R.)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Whiteley, George(Stockport)

Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd

Mr. Samuel Evans and Mr. M'Kenna.

Williams, John Carvell (Notts)

Yoxall, James Henry

NOES.

Allhusen, Augustus Henry E.

Galloway, Wm. Johnson

Morrell, George Herbert

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Gedge, Sydney

Morrison, Walter

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Gibbons, J. Lloyd

Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

Arnold, Alfred

Gibbs, Hn A. G. H. (City of Lond.

Mount, William George

Arnold-Foster, Hugh O.

Godson, Sir A. Frederick

Muntz, Philip A.

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Goldsworthy, Major-General

Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

Bagot, Captain J.FitzRoy

Goschen, Rt Hn G. J. (St George's

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Baird, John George A.

Goschen, George J.(Sussex)

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Balcarres, Lord

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Nicholson, William Graham

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Man'r

Graham, Henry Robert

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds)

Gray, Ernest(West Ham)

Northcote, Hon. Sir H. S.

Banbury, Frederick George

Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts

Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

Pender, Sir James

Bartley, George C. T.

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Pierpoint, Robert

Barton, Dunbar Plunket

Gull, Sir Cameron

Pilkington, R.(Lancs, Newton)

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol

Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Beckett, Ernest William

Halsey, Thomas Frederick

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe

Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord G.

Purvis, Robert

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. W.

Rankin, Sir James

Beresford, Lord Charles

Hanson, Sir Reginald

Rentoul, James Alexander

Bhownagree, Sir M. M.

Hardy, Laurence

Richards, Henry Charles

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol)

Ridley, Rt. Hon Sir Matthew W

Bousfield, William Robert

Hobhouse, Henry

Ritchie, Rt. Hon Chas. Thomson

Brassey, Albert

Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow)

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Round, James

Brookfield, A. Montagu

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Bullard, Sir Harry

Howell, William Tudor

Russell, T. W.(Tyrone)

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

Rutherford, John

Carlile, William Walter

Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn

Ryder, John Herbert Dudley

Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs.)

Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-

Sandys, Lieut.-Col. T. Myles

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

Jebb, Richard Claverhouse

Seton-Karr, Henry

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, E.)

Jolliffe, Hon. H. George

Skewes-Cox, Thomas

Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

Kemp, George

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

Chamberlan, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

Kenyon, James

Smith, Hon. W. F. D.(Strand)

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

Kenyon-Slaney Col. William

Spencer, Ernest

Charrington, Spencer

Kimber, Henry

Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

Chelsea, Viscount

Lafone, Alfred

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Laurie, Lieut.-General

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)

Stock, James Henry

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Lea, Sir Thomas (Londonderry)

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Colomb, Sir John Charles R.

Lees, Sir Elliott(Birkenhead)

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Compton, Lord Alwyne

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W.

Llewellyn, Evan H.(Somerset)

Thornton, Percy M.

Cotton-Jodrell, Col. Edw. T. D.

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Tollemache, Henry James

Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverpool)

Valentia, Viscount

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

Wanklyn, James Leslie

Curzon, Viscount

Lorne, Marquess of

Ward, Hon. Robert A.(Crewe)

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Lowe, Francis William

Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent)

Davies, Sir Horatio D(Chatham

Lowles, John

Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Lucas-Shadwell, William

Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

Digby, J. K. D. Wingfield-

Macartney, W. G. Ellison

Wharton, Rt. Hon. Jno. Lloyd

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Macdona, John Cumming

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

Doughty, George

Maclver, David(Liverpool)

Williams, Jos. Powell (Birm.)

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinb,W.)

Willox Sir John Archibald

Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S.

Malcolm, Ian

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Doxford, William Theodore

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.

Drucker, A.

Meysey-Thompson Sir H M.

Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

Milbank, Sir Powlett Charles J.

Wylie, Alexander

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edwd.

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Wymdham, George

Finch, George H.

Milner, Sir Frederick George

Wyndham-Quin, Major W.H.

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Milton, Viscount

Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Milward, Colonel Victor

Young, Commander (Berks, E.)

Fisher, William Hayes

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Fison, Frederick William

More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)

Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)

THE CHAIRMAN: The remaining clauses on the Paper are out of order.
MR. LABOUCHERE: Perhaps, Sir, you have overlooked the Amendment standing in my name, which I have been waiting here three weary days to propose. The new clause I wish to propose is—
"The county council of any county may determine by resolution that the provisions in this Act contained shall not for the time
being, and until the resolution is rescinded, apply within the area of the county."
THE CHAIRMAN: It should have come on as a proviso at the end of the first clause.
Question put, "That the Chairman do report the Bill, without Amendment, to the House."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 189; Noes, 94. (Division List, No. 268).

AYES.

Allhusen, Augstus Hen. Eden

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S.

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Doxford, William Theordore

Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset)

Arnold, Alfred

Drucker, A.

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (L'pool)

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Finch, George H.

Lorne, Marquess of

Baird, John George Alexander

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Lowe, Francis William

Balcarres, Lord

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Lowles, John

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

Fisher, William Hayes

Lucas-Shadwell, William

Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W.(Leeds)

Fison, Frederick William

Macartney, W. G. Ellison

Barry, Rt Hn A H Smith-(Hunts

Foster, Colonel(Lancaster)

Macdona, John Cumming

Bartley, George C.T.

Galloway, William Johnson

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Burton, Dunbar Plunket

Gedge, Sydney

M'Iver, Sir Lewis Edinb'h, W.)

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol

Gibbons, J. Lloyd

Malcolm, Ian

Beckett, Ernest William

Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (C. of Lond.)

Massey-Mainwaring, Hon. W. F

Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe

Godson, Sir Augustus Fred.

Maysey-Thompson, Sir M. H.

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Goldsworthy, Major-General

Milbank, Sir Powlett Chas John

Beresford, Lord Charles

Goschen, Ht Hn G J (St George's)

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Goschen, George J. (Sussex)

Milner, Sir Frederick George

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Milton, Viscount

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Graham, Henry Robert

Milward, Colonel Victor

Bousfield, William Robert

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Brassey, Albert

Green, W. D.(Wednesbury)

More, Rbt. Jasper (Shropshire)

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

Morgan, Hn. Fred (Monm'thsh.)

Brookfield, A. Montagu

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Morrell, George Herbert

Bullard, Sir Harry

Gull, Sir Cameron

Morrison, Walter

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

Carlile, William Walter

Halsey, Thomas Frederick

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Cavendish, R. F.(N. Lancs.

Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord George

Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath)

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. Wm.

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Hanson, Sir Reginald

Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford

Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)

Hardy, Laurence

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Chaloner, Captain R. G.W.

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Pender, Sir James

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)

Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol)

Pierpoint, Robert

Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r

Hobhouse, Henry

Pilkington, R. (Lancs, Newton)

Charrington, Spencer

Holland, Hon. Lionel R.(Bow)

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Chelsea, Viscount

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Purvis, Robert

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Howell, William Tudor

Rentoul, James Alexander

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Hozier, Hon. Jas. Henry Cecil

Richards, Henry Charles

Colomb, Sir Jno. Chas. Ready

Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn

Richardson, Sir Thos (Hartlep'l)

Compton, Lord Alwyne

Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-

Ridley, Rt Hon Sir Matthew W.

Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W.

Jebb, Richard Claverhouse

Ritchie, Rt. Hon Charles T.

Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Robertson, Herbert(Hackney)

Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge

Jolliffe, Hon. H. George

Round, James

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Kemp, George

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Curzon, Viscount

Kenyon, James

Russell, T. W.(Tyrone)

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William

Rutherford, John

Davies, Sir H. D.(Chatham)

Kimber, Henry

Ryder, John Herbert Dudley

Dickson-Poynder, Sir J. P.

Lafone, Alfred

Sandys, Lieut-Col. Thomas M.

Dighy, John K. D. Wingfield-

Laurie, Lieut.-General

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)

Skewes-Cox, Thomas

Doughty, George

Lea, Sir Thomas (Londonderry)

Smith, James P. (Lanarks)

Smith, Hon. W. F. D.(Strand)

Tollemache, Henry James

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Spencer, Ernest

Tomlinson, Wm. Edward M.

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Stanley, Hon. A.(Ormskirk)

Valentia, Viscount

Wylie, Alexander

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Ward, Hon. Robert A.(Crewe)

Wyndham, George

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent)

Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

Stock, James Henry

Welby, Lieut-Col. A. C. E.

Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

Young, Commander(Berks, E.)

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Wharton, Rt. Hon. John L.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Talbot, Lord E.(Chichester)

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

Thornton, Percy M.

Williams, J. Powell-(Birm.)

NOES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

Power, Patrick Joseph

Asher, Alexander

Joicey, Sir James

Price, Robert John

Austin, M.(Limerick, W.)

Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea)

Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

Barlow, John Emmott

Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)

Randell, David

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Kilbride, Denis

Reckitt, Harold James

Billson, Alfred

Labouchere, Henry

Rickitt, J. Compton

Birrell, Augustine

Lambert, George

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs).

Bolton, Thomas Dolling

Langley, Batty

Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Burns, John

Lawson, Sir W.(Cumberland)

Scott, Chas. Prestwich(Leigh)

Caldwell, James

Leese, Sir J. F.(Accrington)

Shaw, Charles Edw.(Stafford)

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Leuty, Thomas Richmond

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)

Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.)

Lewis, John Herbert

Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.

Colville, John

Lloyd-George, David

Souttar, Robinson

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Logan, John William

Spicer, Albert

Crilly, Daniel

Macaleese, Daniel

Steadman, William Charles

Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

MacDonnell, Dr M A (Qneen's C)

Stevenson, Francis S.

Dalziel, James Henry

M'Crae, George

Stuart, James (Shoreditch)

Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardig'n

M'Dermott, Patrick

Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

Davitt, Michael

M'Ewan, William

Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)

Donelan, Captain A.

M'Ghee, Richard

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

Doogan, P. C.

M'Kenna, Reginald

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Douglas, Charles M.(Lanark)

M'Leod, John

Wedderburn, Sir William

Duckworth, James

Maddison, Fred.

Williams, John Carvell (Notts.

Edwards, Owen Morgan

Maden, John Henry

Wilson, Henry J. (York. W. R.)

Ellis, John Edward

Morgan, W. P.(Merthyr)

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Evans, S. T.(Glamorgan)

Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

Fenwick, Charles

Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)

Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudderf'd

Ferguson, R. C. Munro(Leith)

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Yoxall, James Henry

Flynn, James Christopher

O'Connor, J.(Wicklow, W.)

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Oldroyd, Mark

Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

Pease, Joseph A.(Northumb.)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Hedderwick, Thomas Charles H

Pickersgill, Edward Hare

Mr. Herbert Gladstone and Mr. M'Arthur.

Horniman, Frederick John

Pilkington, Sir Geo A (Lancs S W

Question put and agreed to.

House resumed.
MR. DALZIEL: On a point of order may I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether, the Twelve o'clock rule having been suspended in respect of the Tithe Rent-charge Bill, it is competent to go on to the next Order of the day? I consider that the Government ought to consult the convenience of Members in all parts of the House.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I have not the least objection, to-day being Friday, and in the exceptional circumstances of the case, to move the adjournment of the House.
Motion made and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: On the question of adjournment, I should wish to make a personal explanation to the right hon. the President of the Board of Trade. I stated in the course of the discussion of one of the Amendments that he had given a pledge that certain Returns which had been asked for would be made, and I suggested that that pledge had not been redeemed. I fully admit now that the right hon. Gentleman had fulfilled his pledge.
MR. RITCHIEwas understood to say that he accepted the explanation of the hon. Member for Carnarvon.
House adjourned accordingly at five minutes after Four of the clock in the morning.