HC Deb 01 August 1899 vol 75 cc1130-7

Considered in Committee:—

(In the Committee.)

MR. J. W. LOWTHER, Cumberland, Penrith, in the Chair.

Clause 1:—

MR. GALLOWAY (Manchester, S.W.) moved to report progress, on the ground that the Bill was only read a second time at Twelve o'clock the previous night, and that there had been no possibility of properly considering it.

Motion made, and Question proposed— That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Galloway.)

THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,) Manchester, E.

I hope my hon. friend will not press his motion. This Bill is really non-contentious, and is greatly desired in the interest of religious work in Manchester.

MR. GALLOWAY

said he could not conceive what possible good the Bill could do to religious work in Manchester.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon District)

asked the First Lord of the Treasury to give some explanation of the position of the first-class canon.

MR. TOMLINSON (Preston)

said that the object of the Bill was to equalise the sums paid to the different canons.

MR. HARWOOD (Bolton)

said that the general feeling of all parties in Manchester was that this was a very good measure. Manchester Cathedral was visited by one of the most democratic congregations in the country, and the canons say it is a congregation which ought to have a good service, although, under present conditions, they are not able to pay for it. That would be secured, however, under the arrangements proposed by the Bill; and it would be a distinct disaster to the city, and a throw-

back to the religious work in the city, if the Bill were lost.

MR. BRYCE (Aberdeen, S.)

thought the Bill was a very useful one, which the House might very well accept. It proposed to remedy an accidental inequality, and did not propose to divert any funds to any other than cathedral purposes.

* MR. CARVELL WILLIAMS (Notts, Mansfield)

said that on the Second Reading of the Bill he had asked whether the intention was that the equalisation should take place at once, but the Solicitor-General said that it was deemed to be just to obtain the assent of the existing canons. He was told that one of the canons still held out, and that years might elapse before the Act could come into operation. Therefore it would remain true that the first canon would still get too much, and the other canons too little. That took very much of the gilding from the transaction. It was one more illustration of how the strength of vested interests delayed necessary reforms in the Church.

MR. HARWOOD

said it was necessary to make some clear arrangement in view of the time when the first canon, in the ordinary course of nature, would cease from troubling. If this arrangement was passed, and had the sanction of Parliament, the other canons would have a lever to bring to bear on the recalcitrant canon.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 13; Noes, 97. (Division List, No. 326.)

AYES.
Caldwell, James Lewis, John Herbert Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Channing, Francis Allston Lloyd-George, David
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Macaleese, Daniel TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Galloway and Mr. Henry J. Wilson.
Griffith, Ellis J. Moss, Samuel
Horniman, Frederick John Oldroyd, Mark
Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland) Pirie, Duncan V.
NOES.
Anson, Sir William Reynell Blundell, Colonel Henry Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry
Arnold, Alfred Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Charrington, Spencer
Asher, Alexander Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Bryce, Rt. Hon. James Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin) Compton, Lord Alwyne
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r Carlile, William Walter Cranborne, Viscount
Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds Causton, Richard Knight Curzon, Viscount
Balfour, Rt Hn J Blair (Clackm. Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh'e Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph
Barnes, Frederick Gorell Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm. Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn E.
Billson, Alfred Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne
Fisher, William Hayes Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverpool) Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Lorne, Marquess of Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Flower, Ernest Macartney, W. G. Ellison Strauss, Arthur
Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (C. of Lond. Macdona, John Cumming Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Gladstone, Rt. Hon. H. John Maclure, Sir John William Thornton, Percy M.
Goldsworthy, Major-General Middlemore, J. Throgmorton Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Goschen, Rt Hn. G J (St George's Moon, Edward Robert Pacy Valentia, Viscount
Goulding, Edward Alfred Moore, William (Antrim, N.) Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent)
Greville, Hon. Ronald Morrell, George Herbert Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robt. Wm. Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) Williams, Jos. Powell- (Birm.
Harwood, George Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath Willox, Sir John Archibald
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- Nicholson, William Graham Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
Healy, Timothy M. (N. Louth) Nichol, Donald Ninian Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Perks, Robert William Wylie, Alexander
Johnston, William (Belfast) Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward Wyndham, George
Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) Purvis, Robert Wyvill, Marmaduke d'Arcy
Lawrenc, Sir E. Durning- (Corn. Rentoul, James Alexander Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.
Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Charles T. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Royds, Clement Molyneux
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham Sidebottom, Wm. (Derbysh.)

MR. LEWIS (Flint Boroughs) moved, in Clause 1, line 8, to leave out 2, and insert 1. The object of this Amendment, he said, was to ascertain where they were. What was wanted was a little more light as to the salaries of these canons. Under the Act of 1850 the canons received £1,000 a year, but in addition to that some of them held other preferments. The first canon received an addition of £1,300 to his income. He wanted to know in what way the Bill was likely to affect the reverend gentleman, and if he had given his assent to the proposed arrangement.

THE SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir R. B. FINLAY,) Inverness Burghs

was sorry he was not prepared to give the information. The object of the Bill was to make a fair distribution of certain funds derived from the sale of a house, and apply the balance in aid of an improved service in the cathedral.

Amendment negatived.

MR. GALLOWAY

I wish to move an Amendment to Clause 1, to provide that the money to be devoted under the Bill to cathedral services shall be allocated to the assistance of the poorer parishes of Manchester. I think there can be no doubt whatever that there are in the City of Manchester many parishes where the incomes of the clergy are totally inadequate for the duties which they have to perform. Indeed, the Bishop of Manchester himself has for the last two years actively associated himself with the fund for assisting as far as possible the poorer parishes which stand in need of pecuniary support. I quite agree with my hon. friend the Member for Bolton as to the services that ought to be held in the cathedral, and I think there would be no difficulty in obtaining the necessary money, feeling, as I do, that the supporters of the Church in other parts of the city would be only too willing, if they were properly approached, to give money for the purpose desired. It is, however, a totally different thing to get money for the poorer parishes, and I therefore propose that the money to be devoted under the Bill to cathedral services be given for the assistance of the poorer parishes.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 10, to leave out the words 'such purposes connected with the service and ministrations of the cathedral,' and insert the words 'making additional provisions for the cure of souls in parishes in the city of Manchester where such assistance is most required.'"—(Mr. Galloway.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

SIR R. B. FINLAY

I am not prepared to dispute my hon. Friend's statement that more pecuniary assistance is required for the poorer parishes in the City of Manchester, but at the same time I think the Committee should recognise that there is a certain appropriateness in applying this money for the services and administration of the cathedral.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes, 87; Noes. 18. (Division List, No. 327.)

AYES.
Anson, Sir William Reynell Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute)
Arnold, Alfred Fisher, William Hayes Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Nicholson, William Graham
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Flower, Ernest Nicol, Donald Ninian
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Man.) Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (C. of Lond.) Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds) Gladstone, Rt. Hon. H. John Purvis, Robert
Balfour, Rt. Hon. J. B. (Clackm. Goldsworthy, Major-General Ridley, Rt Hon. Sir Matt. W.
Barnes, Frederick Gorell Goschen, Rt Hn G. J. (St George's Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Goulding, Edward Alfred Royds, Clement Molyneux
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol Greville, Hon. Ronald Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Blundell, Colonel Henry Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- Harwood, George Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Strauss, Arthur
Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin) Johnston, William (Belfast) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Carlile, William Walter Lawrence, Sir E. Durning- (Corn Thornton, Percy M.
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbys.) Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool) Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Valentia, Viscount
Chaloner, Capt. R. G. W. Lockwood, Lt.-Colonel A. R. Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham Williams, J. Powell- (Birm.)
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverpool Willox, Sir John Archibald
Charrington, Spencer Lorne, Marquess of Wodehouse, Rt. Hn E. R. (Bath)
Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E. Macaleese, Daniel Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Macartney, W. G. Ellison Wylie, Alexander
Compton, Lord Alwyne Macdona, John Cumming Wyndham, George
Curzon, Viscount Maclure, Sir John William Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Middlemore, J. Throgmorton Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Moon, Edward Robert Pacy TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. Moore, William (Antrim, N.)
Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward Morrell, George Herbert
NOES.
Asher, Alexander Healy, Timothy M. (N. Louth) Perks, Robert William
Billson, Alfred Horniman, Frederick John Pire, Duncan V.
Caldwell, James Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire) Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Channing, Francis Allston Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Lewis, John Herbert TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Galloway and Mr. Lloyd-George.
Griffith, Ellis J. Moss, Samuel
Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale- Oldroyd, Mark
MR. LLOYD-GEORGE

I propose to move the omission from the Bill of the last proviso, viz: "that nothing in this section shall operate to reduce the income of any person who is a canon at the passing of this Act, except with his consent." I do not see why the senior canon should receive £1,300 a year in respect of a sale of a residence which is worth £250 a year.

Amendment proposed— In page 1, line 14, to leave out the words from the word 'determined,' to the end of the clause."—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)

Question proposed: "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

MR. MOSS (Denbighshire, E.)

It seems to me that the principle embodied in the Amendment is either a fair principle, or an unfair principle. I do not see why the necessity of obtaining the consent of one canon should block the whole scheme. The principle of the Tithe Rent-Charge Bill was that the clergy knew what the conditions of the benefices were before they accepted the benefices. So in this case, the canons knew the salaries they were to get. If the principle was just in one case, it was just in the other.

MR. ELLIS J. GRIFFITH (Anglesey)

said that if the Memorandum attached to this Bill was correct, all that the canons were entitled to was a fit house of residence. The rent of the senior canon's house was £250 a year, and he had no right to complain if he got a house of that value.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes, 82; Noes, 16. (Division List, No. 328.)

AYES.
Anson, Sir William Reynell Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)
Arnold, Alfred Fisher, William Hayes Nicholson, William Graham
Atkinson, Right Hon. John Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond Nicol, Donald Ninian
Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (C. of Lond. Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward
Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Man.) Gladstone, Rt. Hon. H. John Purvis, Robert
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds) Goldsworthy, Major-General Ridley, Rt. Hn. Sir Matthew W.
Balfour, Rt. Hn. J. B. (Clackm.) Goulding, Edward Alfred Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson
Barnes, Frederic Gorell Greville, Hon. Ronald Royds, Clement Molyneux
Barton, Dunbar Plunket Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert W. Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)
Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol Harwood, George Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)
Blundell, Colonel Henry Jebb, Richard Claverhouse Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M..
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith Johnston, William (Belfast) Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John Lawrence, Sir E. Durning-(Corn Tomlinson, Wm. Ed. Murray
Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin) Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool Valentia, Viscount
Carlile, William Walter Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E. (Kent)
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine Williams, Joseph Powell- (Birm
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) Willox, Sir John Archibald
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.) Long, Rt. Hn Walter (Liverpl. Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath
Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r Lorne, Marquis of Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Macaleese, Daniel Wylie, Alexander
Charrington, Spencer Macartney, W. G. Ellison Wyndham, George
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. Macdona, John Cumming Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.
Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse Maclure, Sir J. William Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy
Curzon, Viscount Middlemore, J. Throgmorton Young, Commander (Berks, E.)
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph Moon, Edward Robert Pacy
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Moore, William (Antrim, N.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.
Duncombe, Hon Hubert V. Morrell, George Herbert
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute)
NOES.
Asher, Alexander Horniman, Frederick John Pirie, Duncan V.
Billson, Alfred Jones, William (Carnarvonsh. Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)
Caldwell, James Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'l'nd
Channing, Francis Allston Lewis, John Herbert TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Lloyd-George and Mr. Ellis Griffith.
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Moss, Samuel
Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale- Oldroyd, Mark
Healy, Timothy M. (N. Louth) Perks, Robert William

Resolutions agreed to

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Clause 1 stand part of the Bill."

MR. LEWIS

said he had received as yet no reply to his question as to what the total salary of the first canon was. He got £1,000 a year under the Act of 1850, he had £1,300 a year from this property, and he had £170 a year as vicar of a parish in Kent, making a total of £2,470.

MR. HARWOOD

said that the total income of the canon had nothing to do with the Bill.

Clause 2 agreed to.

Bill reported without Amendment; to be read the third time To-morrow.