Commons Sitting of 1 March 1898

Preamble
MR. SPEAKER MR. SPEAKER took the Chair at Three if the clock.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
Maldon Water Bill: Southampton Gas Bill: Tottenham and Edmonton Gas Bill: Read a second time and committed.

ILFORD IMPROVEMENT BILL.
Order for a Second Reading read.
MR. J. H. YOXALL: I wish to draw attention to a clause which is highly defective, and I hope the promoters of the Bill will consent to remedy it before carrying the Measure any further. I take exception to that provision which declares that any person in charge of a school shall be penalised if he permits any child suffering from any infectious disease to attend the school without notifying the Medical Officer of Health. It is obviously unjust that he should be placed in that position; I therefore hope that the hon. Member for West Ham, who, I believe, is in charge of the Bill, will give an assurance that the word "knowingly" shall be inserted in this particular clause.
*MR. ERNEST CRAY: I will meet my hon. Friend's objection at once. I have received an assurance from the agent of the promoters that the clause shall be remodelled in the direction he has indicated, and on that assurance I hope he will withdraw his objection.
Bill read a second time and committed.

LONDON BUILDING ACT (1894) AMENDMENT BILL.
Second Reading deferred till Thursday, 10th March.
VICTORIA EMBANKMENT EXTENSION AND ST. JOHN'S IMPROVEMENT BILL.
Second Reading deferred till Wednesday, 30th March.

WYMONDHAM WATER BILL.
Order for Second Reading read.
MR. F. W. WILSON: I have to ask the indulgence of the House on rising to show cause why this Water Bill should not be read a second time. It is an attempt by a body of London

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gentlemen to capture a water area in Norfolk against the wishes and remonstrances of the local authorities. It is proposed to annex an area 10 miles long and seven wide in an agricultural district and to secure the water rights over 40,000 acres for five years. This is to be done with the limited capital of £16,000, and I say that that is utterly inadequate for such a purpose. The local bodies of the district affected have vehemently protested against the proposed annexation. The governing body of the district is the Parish Council, which has met and passed a Resolution against the scheme. This Resolution has been confirmed by a town's meeting, practically with unanimity. There might have been here and there a dissentient, but practically the meeting was unanimous. The District Council has also protested against the annexation of the water, and has taken formal proceedings to oppose the Bill. I ask the House is it fair to take away the right of public bodies in the way in which it is proposed by this Bill? Parliament has just conferred upon the country districts Local Government, and their representatives are willing and anxious to do their duty, and I ask why the proper legitimate local authority should be required, under these circumstances, to hand over their right to their own water supply to the promoters of this Bill—to a private monopoly? It is quite true that at Maidstone, recently, there has been a terrible epidemic of typhoid fever, but in that case the water supply was in the hands of a private company. But in the district of Wymondham we prefer to have the control of our own water supply in our own hands. This matter rather comes by surprise upon us; we have had hardly time to raise the question before we have to oppose the scheme before the House. If the House, as the promoters ask, pass the Second Reading and refer the Bill to a Private Committee, we shall at once be put to a very large expense, from which we ask the House to save us, as the district concerned is poor and depressed. This Bill has been promoted entirely from London; it has been introduced into the House by one of the hon. Members for Finsbury and the hon. Baronet the Member for the Stretford Division of Lancashire; but I want to know why the hon. Baronet should wish to
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thrust his water scheme upon us. The promoters of the Bill will probably express their willingness to submit a clause with reference to purchase, but we have seen what clauses of that kind meant. I remember a few Sessions ago I attended a Committee which was dealing with a Bill in which the corporation of a little town sought to purchase and have control of its own water supply, and they had to pay an enormous sum—something like £14 or £15 per head of population. It is not well, therefore, to let private persons secure these valuable monopolies. The water supply of this district is mainly derived from wells, and occasionally some of these wells have been found unsanitary and unsatisfactory, and it has been necessary to close them. In that direction the local authorities have done, and, no doubt, will continue to do, their duty. I do not wish to take up the time of the House unnecessarily, but I based my opposition to this Bill on the broad principle that the supply of water should be in the hands of the local authorities, and where the local authorities are willing to undertake that supply it should not be handed over to a private Company. As this House has extended local government to the country districts, I consider that what has been given them by one hand they should not be deprived of by another, and I therefore appeal to the House, in the interest of local government, not to pass the Second Reading of this Bill. The District Council has done everything it is called upon to do, and I have no doubt it will carry out an effective scheme, if necessary, for providing a water supply.
*THE VICE-CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSEHOLD (Mr. AILWYN E. FELLOWES,): I rise to second the Motion for the rejection of the Bill, and I do so simply as a disinterested party, for, although I have lived in the neighbourhood most of my life, I have not lived in the district actually affected by the Bill. I can fully bear out every word that has been said by my hon. Friend Mr. Wilson as regards the feeling in the district, and of the population of the town of Wymondham, in regard to the Measure. The Parish Council is unanimous in its opposition to the Bill; the District Council, I am informed on good authority, is also opposed to it. The townspeople, in a

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meeting six weeks ago, and again last Monday week, were unanimous in their opposition to the provisions of the Bill, and I believe there is not a single East Anglian Member who will speak in favour of the Bill, or vote in its favour. I always held, when this House established Parish and District Councils, it was because they considered these local authorities would be the best bodies to set up in the different districts; and when it sees there is practical unanimity among all the different councils of this district of Wymondham against this Bill, I hope the House will pause before it gives a Second Reading to the Bill. But there is another circumstance in connection with this matter which should be brought before the House. It seems to be rather strange that a small town like Wymondham, standing in the midst of a purely agricultural district, should be attacked in this way by four absolute strangers to the county. These four gentlemen have nothing on earth to do with the county of Norfolk, in which they propose to start this company. I find from a London directory that one is connected with a coal company in London. This gentleman a few years since bought a piece of land near Wymondham, on which he built three or four cottages. The second gentleman is connected with a firm of artesian well-sinkers. The third is a coal merchant, and also connected with artesian well-sinkers; and the fourth gentleman is a consulting engineer in London. Well, we are very grateful to these gentleman for coming down to our county, but at the same time we think; it rather hard that they should come down and propose this scheme in direct opposition to the population of the district concerned. It is stated in the preamble of the Bill that there is no proper or adequate water supply for the parish of Wymondham and the district. All I can say is that the principal ground of the objection of the inhabitants of Wymondham is that there is a good supply, and that water is easily procurable. The feeling is so strong that the Parish Council and the District Council appointed a Committee to inquire into the whole matter, and having made a house-to-house investigation, they discovered that, in the majority of cases, the water supply was both good and abundant. I know very well that
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there have been a few cases of illness in Wymondham, and in the district around, but the wells which have been found unsatisfactory have been closed by the order of the District Council, and I am perfectly certain that the present Wymondham Council will do everything in its power to put a stop to the use of bad wells. The people hold that if waterworks are to be started in that district, they should be started by their own District Council. It may be urged that the Bill should be allowed to obtain a Second Reading, and go to a Committee upstairs. To adopt this course, however, would be a little hard on the district of Wymondham, which would be then compelled to spend £700 or £800 in opposing the Bill upstairs. They cannot afford to spend that sum of money. I trust this House will support the local authority, and throw out the Bill.
Amendment proposed—
"That the Bill be read a second time this day six months."—(Mr. F. W. Wilson.)
MR. H. C. RICHARDS: As one of the members whose names are on the back of the Bill, and as one who has no pecuniary interest in its passage, I think I can show the House strong reasons why the Bill should be read a second time. So far from there being any attempt to capture the water area, it is only right the House should know that as far back as 1894 there were a number of complaints of the outbreak of enteric fever in the district, and in 1896 the same state of things was reported to the Local Government Board. The promoters of this Bill, whether coal merchants or sinkers of artesian wells, are entitled to the same justice as every other promoter who brings a Private Bill before the House, and I may here say the promoters have already offered to insert a clause, which has been submitted for sanction to the Speaker's counsel, giving to the local authority purchasing powers; therefore, anything has been done, as far as they are concerned, to meet the objections of the local authority. The local authority has not pledged itself, either to the Local Government Board or to those in charge of the Bill, that it is prepared to bring in a Bill, and I think it should weigh with the House that the Local Government Board are prepared to show that

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this rural authority has done nothing with regard to the water supply. I was astonished to see on a whip issued to hon. Members the name of a former head of the Local Government Board, who belongs himself to the medical profession. He is endeavouring to prevent a Bill from passing, the object of which is to bring a pure water supply into a district which does not at present enjoy it. If the local authority are in any way desirous to get inserted a clause giving them purchasing powers, it can be inserted, if the House will agree to the Second Reading, and adjourn the Bill for a month, so that all further expense will be obviated. After the terrible results from an impure water supply at Maidstone and King's Lynn, and in face of the fact that the Local Government Board have before them proofs of the absolute negligence of the local authorities, I feel certain the House will agree to the Second Reading of the Bill.
MR. D. F. GODDARD: I should like to say a few words in support of the Motion against the Second Reading of this Bill. I think the grounds already stated are good and sufficient for the rejection of the Bill. It would seem from the speech to which the House has just listened that there is something defective about the water supply in this district, but there has been no evidence in support of that contention. So far as I can ascertain, there are in this district 212 wells. These have been all examined; some few have been found doubtful, and some have been condemned as not to be used for drinking water purposes, but there still remain 200 wells which are considered thoroughly satisfactory and sufficient for the district which they are intended to supply. But, apart from the general ground, there is another ground for rejecting this Bill. There is no attempt to give a constant supply of water by the promoting company. All they undertake to do is to supply water where they can supply from a reservoir by gravitation, and unless they put the reservoir at the highest point of Wymondham it is absolutely certain there must be a good many people in that district who can never be supplied by pure gravitation. It appears to me to be altogether wrong. If we
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are to give this company great powers, they, on their side, should be prepared to give a constant water supply. Then, I think, the charges are excessive. If a man has a house rateably valued at £8 a year, this company propose to saddle him with a charge of 4d. a week, or 17s. 4d. a year, or nearly 11 per cent. on his rateable value, while in most towns the charge is only 5 per cent., and in a few 7 per cent. The hon. Member has referred to the outbreaks of enteric fever in the years 1894 and 1896, but I find from the returns for 1894 that the death rate per thousand in the district was only 14.64. Surely that is not sufficient to warrant the closing of the present water supply and handing it over to a company of private monopolists? With reference to the proposed purchasing clause, there is the question how long before it can come into effect—[An HON. MEMBER: Five years.]—and when it does come into effect what is the price which the local authority will have to pay for it? I have had some personal experience in this matter. The Ipswich Corporation many years ago disposed of their water rights to a private company, and I need not say the company flourished very well indeed, paying its maximum dividends. But in 1867, when the Corporation proposed to buy back the water rights, the price mentioned as likely to be required was £100,000. That price was thought too high, but when we moved in the matter again in 1887 the price was between £160,000 and £170,000, and when I, in 1891, raised the question again in the Ipswich Corporation, the price asked was £213,000, and ultimately it was purchased for £200,000. The effect to the ratepayers during the past two years is that this undertaking supplies £1,000 a year in relief of the rates, notwithstanding the high price that had to be paid for the undertaking. If a local authority parts with their rights, it is perfectly certain, whenever they want to purchase them back, the ratepayers will have to pay through the nose. On that ground alone this Bill should, I think, be rejected. I shall be interested to know what the Local Government Board have to say on this question, as the local authorities are all agreed in their opposition to the Bill. I shall support the Motion for its rejection.
*MR. J. W. LOWTHER: We all know that, in the Eastern Counties the rainfall is very small, and that often great difficulties are experienced in obtaining a water supply. Now here is a company which proposes to supply a certain district with water. The inhabitants of Wymondham are not obliged to take the water from this company. The hon. Member for Huntingdonshire made merry over the promoters of the Bill, but I must point out that one of the promoters has recently built houses in this district, and obviously the genesis of the Bill was that the gentleman, on arriving in the district, found that its sanitary state was not satisfactory, and consequently himself proposed, with the assistance of some water engineers, to offer the inhabitants a supply of water. The hon. Member for Ipswich referred to the situation of the reservoir, the charges for the water, and the price which the local authority might, perhaps, have to pay, if eventually they wished to purchase the water company's undertaking: but these are eminently matters for the Committee, or for settlement outside the House. I think I am justified in reading to the House extracts supplied to the Local Government Board by the local medical officer of health, who stated that in 1894 there was a serious outbreak of fever in this district, and that it was distinctly traced to drinking impure water. Yet the local authority did absolutely nothing. In 1896 the local officer of health, reported that samples of the wells of Wymondham had been sent to the county analyst, and that he condemned these samples as impure and unfit for drinking purposes, and yet that water is still being drunk by the people in this district. They were samples taken from a certain number of wells. I do think that with the report of the Local Medical Authority sent up to the Local Government Board, not once, but, twice, calling public attention to the state of matters in that part of the country.—the House would be taking upon itself, in view of the lamentable outbreaks which the hon. Members have heard of in the county of Norfolk, which
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had occurred at Maidstone and other places, outbreaks due to the insufficient and impure supply of water—I say that this House would be taking upon itself a responsibility which I am not prepared to advise anyone to take in connection with this Bill. I do not deny that there are many points contained in the Bill which a Committee upstairs ought thoroughly to thresh out and possibly alter, but I seriously ask the House to pass the Second Reading of this Bill and not take upon its shoulders so grave a responsibility as to reject a Bill of this sort in view of the serious circumstances to which I have called attention. The promoters in my presence made an offer to those who represented the opposition here to-day in which they declared that they were ready to insert in their Bill any clause proposed by the opponents of the Bill, which was of a reasonable character for purchasing the undertaking of the promoters. The hon. Member for Ipswich called attention to the enormous and greatly enhanced value which the Ipswich Water Company placed upon their undertaking. This is an example which the hon. members will be able to avoid, because by noting what occurred in this case they will be able to foresee any possible rise or increase in the value of the undertaking of such a company as this, and means might be taken by the opponents of this Bill in the drafting of the clauses to obviate any such increased value. Sir, I won't detain the House any longer. I thought it my duty—as being responsible to some extent for the placing before the House, on an occasion such as this of the facts connected with a private Hill—to lay them seriously before the House and to ask if to consider whether it will undertake under these circumstances the grave responsibility of rejecting a Bill such as that which is now before us.
MR. SAMUEL HOARE: As one somewhat interested in Committee work upstairs, it has usually been my lot to agree with what the Chairman has laid down for our guidance. I only regret, that on this occasion I must express my opinion, and a strong one, that there are matters in this Bill which should, not come under the cognisance of the Committee, but should be settled

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down here, by the House itself. I feel that the Bill is one—although it refers only to a small area in which I am interested, though not in the area—which refers to matters of very great importance, and which would I think be a very serious matter if it were allowed to pass a Second Reading and go up to Committee. I am not going into the details of the position beyond the fact that we must bear in mind that the Sanitary Authority of that district are unanimously against this Bill, and they have expressed their readiness to bring in and carry out whatever may be necessary for the supplying of pure water to this district. I am not going into the facts as to whether there may not be some wells in that district which have given rise to illness, but the House must bear in mind that the death rate is only 14 per thousand, that the outbreaks were half-a-mile apart, and that one of these districts is not marked in the map of the districts which this Company intends to supply with water. But what I do want to bring before the House are two clauses in the Bill, and on account of those two clauses I trust the House will not pass the Second Reading of the Bill. The clauses I allude to are Clauses 5 and 6. I will not read them and so weary the House. Suffice it to say that in Clause 5 there are 16 villages surrounding Wymondham, four or five of which do not touch Wymondham, but which are some six miles away, which are to be brought under the scope of this Bill; and the next clause states that if this Company does not give the necessary supply of water to these villages, after five years these villages may apply for the necessary power in order to supply their district with water. Now I want the House to consider what they will do if they pass a Bill like this, or a similar Bill? They will give power—let us call it by a word better known—a concession, to four gentlemen in London. One of them has four small houses in the district, but certainly does not reside there himself. It would give them a concession which would be in force for five years and would give them the control of any arrangement that might be made for the better supply of water, not only for the town of Wymondham, but also over these 16 villages. Now I did expect that
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the promoters of this Bill would have told us what is the view of these 16 villages on the subject. I would ask hon. Gentlemen living in the country to put themselves in this position; if Bills of this character are easy to pass their Second Reading in this House, those who live in their own village, and who are endeavouring to supply their poor people with better water, what would be their position when you find that four London gentlemen holding a hundred pound shares have power over your village, and could interfere with your carrying out your improvements for five years. I should like to know how this scheme can be carried out in the case of 16 straggling villages a long distance apart? How are they to arrange to supply their fraction of this undertaking? I quite agree that it is important, not only in our rural districts, that we should do all we can in this House to secure a better supply of water to our poor. It may be that the Wymondham supply is not as perfect as it should be, but the authorities say that they are ready to do all that is necessary. I say we all feel that there is a great responsibility in it. Why, Mr. Speaker, should this House give powers to the sanitary authority of the District Council to meet these difficulties in their own locality, and to do what is necessary? It seems to me that if we pass this Bill we are throwing away a great deal of that self-government which we have placed in their hands. We give them the power in their own locality to do what is necessary, and then, forsooth, they tell us these four gentlemen from London come and say they will do it. I do not know whether there will be any remarks from the Local Government Board in reference to this matter. If it were possible for them to say that they had satisfied themselves that there was an obstinacy—which I do not believe exists in any part of the country—that the local authorities had ignored their responsibility, I should not take the part I do in this discussion. It is because we have given them responsibility; because we have no evidence whatever that they are not prepared to carry out those responsibilities that I feel that it is not a matter that should be handed over to a Committee, and I shall certainly vote for the rejection of this Bill.
MR. T. P. O'CONNOR: It seems to me rather curious that we should be discussing seriously the proposition whether two local bodies are to be coerced in this House on the part, of four gentlemen who are company promoters in London. Well, if I had not heard this Debate, I should have said beforehand that a proposition of this kind would have been scouted from the House with almost unanimous consent. Now, Sir, I look at Clause 4, and I find that it contains the names of the four gentlemen in London who will have nothing to do but go round the country and pump from any district they like and then audaciously come to this House and ask us to give them powers over the heads of the local elected body. A proposition of this kind should be scouted from the House. Another thing that must surprise everybody in connection with this Bill is that the Chairman of Ways and Means has drawn the attention of the House to the fact that there have been two outbreaks of enteric fever in this district. That, of course, is a serious matter, especially in view of the similar outbreaks in districts not very far remote. But the Chairman of Ways and Means forgot to give us the information which we have just heard from a Member from close to the district—namely, that this terrible state of devastation has only caused a death-rate of 14 per thousand. I should be glad to hear that the healthy districts in England were as well off as these districts. Have we come to this, that the rule for dealing with this state of things is to hold these local bodies helpless, and take the control out of their hands. Well, Sir, I have never heard of a more audacious proposition in my life. I think the Local Government Board ought to use every pressure upon the local authorities to do the work which belongs to them, and I think it would be a base surrender, and a dangerous surrender on the part of this House to give power to company promoters of doing the work of local committees and local authorities.
*SIR WALTER FOSTER: I think it only right to state why I am induced to take the somewhat uncommon course of opposing a Private Bill of this nature. In the first place, I
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think I never heard a weaker case put before the House for interfering with a local authority in reference to its duties. In the second place, I object to the Bill because it will form a precedent which I think will be exceedingly dangerous as regards local government generally. The grant of the right of supplying water to a district affects not only the immediate supply of the water to that district, but is the concession of a valuable right which really belongs to the local authority. If a property of this kind which in time, as you know, may increase by hundreds of thousands of pounds in value, is to be given away on a case like this—is to be taken out of the control of the local inhabitants and placed in the hands of vendors who come from London, then, I say, local government will receive a severe blow if this Bill is passed. As regards the medical aspect the position is this. There have been two epidemics of typhoid—so-called epidemics—since 1894. In the first epidemic of typhoid there were nine cases in a place which, I believe, is outside the area proposed to be supplied by this Company. Of those seven occurred in one house. The death-rate at that time in Wymondham from typhoid fever was as low as it is at the present time, and was described by the Medical Officer of Health as a low death-rate from zymotic diseases. He said: "It is the lowest death-rate I have recorded." Moreover, that death-rate has not increased since then, and that was in 1894. In the year 1896, after the Parish Councils Act came into authority, and the District Council was created, the death-rate remained the same—that is, 0.36 per thousand, which the Medical Officer describes as a low death-rate. Under these circumstances the case of medical necessity for interference in the district falls to the ground. The death-rate is a low one for zymotic diseases, and there have only been two cases of typhoid fever recently in the district. The Chairman of Ways and Means said the local authorities did nothing, but that is not so, for they immediately closed the contaminated well which was the cause of the first outbreak. The House was told that the local authority had not done its duty, but it has been doing its duty in looking after the 200 wells in this district. Is a district like

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this to be condemned and given away to the promoters of a public company in this way? Why, every rural district is open to the same danger. You have a right, particularly in any district where the supply depends on surface wells, to the use of them. The majority of rural districts in England are supplied in this way. If in this case we hand over the water supply, we may prepare to do it in all. Well now, Sir, I think, in the interest of local government, we ought to resist this Bill. If the Local Government Board had regarded this as a very grave case we should have had an inquiry into the circumstances. But there has been no local inquiry. Disease was never so rife in this district as to require an inquiry, and the Local Government Board has not exercised its powers of forcing the local authority to provide a common water supply. Until that has been attempted, or some graver evidence shown as to the requirements of this district, I believe the House will do wrong to pass the Second Reading of this Bill, It would create a precedent for these water raids being made into rural districts and public property being taken away from the body which ought to have it, and the only body which ought to be allowed to have it. If local government is to be as effective as it ought to be, it is the Council or Sanitary Authority in the rural district which should supply the water. In the interests of the inhabitants I shall vote against the Second Reading, and vote for giving them the right of governing their own district in their own way.
Question put, Amendment agreed to.
Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to. Second Reading put off for six months.

DEVONPORT, PLYMOUTH, AND STOKE TRAMWAYS BILL.
For incorporating and conferring powers on the Devonport, Plymouth, and Stoke Tramways Company, and for other purposes; read the first time; to be read a second time.
POLICE AND SANITARY REGULATIONS.
Ordered, That the Committee of Selection do appoint a Committee, not exceeding Nine Members, to whom shall be committed all Private Bills promoted by municipal and other local authorities, by which it is proposed to create powers relating to Police and Sanitary Regulations which deviate from, or are in extension of, or are repugnant to, the general law. Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records. Ordered, That Three be the quorum of the Committee. Ordered, That it be an Instruction to the Committee in their Report, under Standing Orders 150 and 173A, to state their reasons for granting any powers in conflict with, deviation from, or excess of the general law. Ordered, That it be an Instruction to the Committee not to insert in any Bill referred to them any provision which is already in force in the district to which the Bill applies under any public Act, or which might be put in force by adopting the provisions of any adoptive Act. Ordered, That, in the case of Bills reported from the Committee, Three clear days shall intervene between the date when the Report of the Committee is circulated with the Votes and the Consideration of the Bill.—(Mr. Jesse Collings.)
METROPOLITAN COMMON SCHEME (BARNES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
To confirm an amended scheme under the Metropolitan Commons Acts, 1866 to 1878, relating to Barnes Common, in the parish of Barnes, Surrey, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Walter Long and Mr. Hanbury; afterwards presented and read the first time; referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 104.]
METROPOLITAN COMMON SCHEME (EAST SHEEN) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
To confirm a scheme relating to East Sheen Common, in the parish of Mortlake, Surrey, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Walter Long and Mr. Hanbury; afterwards presented and read the first time; referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 105.]
PETITIONS.
  EAST INDIA (CONTAGIOUS DISEASES).
  Against State regulation: From Plymouth, Leeds, Clapton, and Saffron Walden (two); to lie upon the Table.
  FOOD ADULTERATION.
  For Alteration of Law: From Monk's Kirby, Marksbury, Chippenham, and Lutterworth; to lie upon the Table.
  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS ON SUNDAY BILL.
  From Buxton, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
REPORTS AND RETURNS.
  ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION.
  Copy presented of Fiftieth Report from the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for England, with an Appendix [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  PRISONS (PROPOSED RULES FOR CONVICT AND LOCAL PRISONS).
  Copy presented of Draft of Rules proposed to be made by the Secretary of State for the Government of Convict and Local Prisons [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  ARMY (MILITARY SAVINGS BANKS).
  Copy presented of Statement of the Amounts due by the Public to Depositors on 31st March 1896, and of the Receipts, Interest, and Disbursements during the year ended 31st March 1897, &c. [by Act]: to lie upon the Table.
  GRAND JURY PRESENTMENTS (IRELAND).
  Copies presented of Presentments made by Grand Juries in Ireland and fiated by the Court of Assize during the year 1897 [by Act]: to lie upon the Table.
  NEW WRIT.
  For the Borough of Tower Hamlets (Stepney Division), in the room of Frederick Wootton Isaacson, esquire, deceased.—(Sir William Walrond.)
  CONGESTED DISTRICTS (IRELAND) BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Tuesday 29th March.

  STANDING ORDERS.
  Resolutions reported from the Committee—
  1. "That, in the case of the Norwich Electric Tramways Petition, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with: That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill, provided that the powers to construct Tramways Nos. 2 and 3 are truck out of the Bill: That the Committee on the Bill do report how far such Orders have been complied with."
  2. "That, in the case of the Taff Vale Railway Petition, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with: That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill, provided that Clause 9 be struck out of the Bill: That the Committee on the Bill do report how far such Order has been complied with."
  3. "That, in the case of the Wigan Corporation Petition, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with: That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill, provided that the powers to construct Tramways No. 4, No. 4A, and No. 4B are struck out of the Bill: That the Committee on the Bill do report how far such Orders have been complied with."
  Resolutions agreed to.

  PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (MANHOOD SUFFRAGE) (IRELAND) BILL.
  Second Reading deferred from Tomorrow till Wednesday 23rd March.
  HONORARY BURGESSES (SCOTLAND) BILL
  To authorise Parliamentary, Police, and other Burghs in Scotland to create Honorary Burgesses, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Parker Smith, Mr. Renshaw, Captain John Sinclair, Sir Thomas Sutherland, Mr. Ure, and Mr. John Wilson (Govan); presented and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Monday 14th March, and to be printed. [Bill 106.]
  IRISH SURNAMES BILL.
  To enable persons of Irish birth or extraction to adopt and use the prefix O or Mac before their Surnames, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Macaleese, Mr. William Jones, Mr. Daly, Mr. William Redmond, Mr. Edward M'Hugh, and Mr. Patrick O'Brien; afterwards presented and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Thursday 17th March, and to be printed. [Bill 107.]

  PUBLIC ACCOUNTS.
  Ordered, That the Committee do consist of Fifteen Members.
  The Committee was accordingly nominated of:—Mr. Gibson Bowles, Mr. Buchanan, Mr. Victor Cavendish, Mr. Arthur O'Connor, Mr. Cameron Corbett, Mr. Gilliat, Mr. Hanbury, Mr. Brodie Hoare, Mr. Grant Lawson, Mr. Herbert Lewis, Mr. Luttrell, Sir Stafford North-cote, Dr. Tanner, Mr. Thornton, and Mr. Woodall.
  Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records.—(Sir William Walrond.)

QUESTIONS.

  TRAWLING OFF THE ISLAND OF LEWIS.
  MR. J. C. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate if he will explain why the fishery officer at Stornoway failed to take steps to identify the five trawlers which he reported were at work close inshore off
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  Tolsta, Broad Bay, Island of Lewis, on Sunday, 6th February; and if fishery officers are only empowered to report the presence of illegal trawlers to the Fishery Board, will the Secretary for Scotland consider the desirability of extending those powers, so that fishery officers may employ means on the spot for the immediate identification or capture of trawlers working within the three-mile limit, so that the onus and expense of performing the duties of the Fishery Board shall not fall on the line fishermen, as was the case on the 17th December last, when they hired the steamer Alice in Stornoway Harbour for the purpose of effecting the capture of the steam trawler Faraday, of Hull, while illegally fishing in Broad Bay?
  MR. T. C. H. HEDDERWICK: I beg, at the same time, to ask the Lord Advocate whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that on Sunday, the 6th ultimo, no fewer than five trawlers were operating off Tolsta Sands, within a very short distance of the shore, and that subsequently, in the course of the same week, three trawlers were at work off Tolsta Beach, two of them close inshore and one further to seaward, and that neither funnels, colours, nor numbers were discernible?
  THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. GRAHAM MURRAY,): I shall answer the hon. Member's Question and Question No. 8 together. I am informed by the Fishery Board that their officers had no means at their disposal for identifying the vessels illegally trawling in the waters named beyond those at the disposal of the local fishermen. The Secretary for Scotland expects that the Fishery Board will be able, in conjunction with the services always rendered by the Admiralty, to afford better sea police protection, in terms of section 19 of the Sea Fisheries Regulation (Scotland) Act, 1895, as soon as their new vessels are ready.

  THE ORKNEY TELEGRAPHIC CABLE.
  MR. HEDDERWICK: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, with regard to the fact that the telegraphic cable in Scapa Flow, Orkney, was recently found

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  to be interrupted, and upon investigation was discovered to be broken in the middle, whether the cause of the damage has been attributed to the operations of trawlers in the Flow; and what has been the cost to the country of discovering and repairing the break in the cable?
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. R. W. HANBURY,): There is every reason to believe that the damage to the cable to which the hon. Member refers was caused by a trawler. The cost of the repair was approximately £130.

  EXPERIMENTS ON LIVING ANIMALS.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether a laboratory for experiments on living animals has been opened in connection with the Board of Agriculture, and two officers empowered to perform experiments without anæsthetics; whether any experiments made there with regard to rabies will be at the public expense; and whether there is any provision for the laboratory in the Estimates?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE (Mr. W. H. LONG,): It has recently become necessary in connection with our operations against rabies, for our Veterinary Department to take over from the local authorities the duty of diagnosis, where the local inspector is unable, after post-mortem examination, to express a definite opinion as to whether the animal was or was not rabid, a class of cases in which inoculation experiments have always been necessary. The work will be performed under the authority of licences under the Act of 1876, which, for many years past, it has been requisite should be held in the Department in question for the purposes of the Diseases of Animals Acts. All the expenses which the work entails are provided in the Vote for my Department.

  MILITARY CHAPLAINS ON THE NORTH-WEST FRONTIER.
  MR. SAMUEL SMITH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether it is the case that few or no Army chaplains or ministers of religion accompanied the British troops during the operations on the Frontier of
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  India, and that there was no religious service on Sundays; and whether any men died and were buried without a minister of religion going near them?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Lord GEORGE HAMILTON,): It is not the case that few or no ministers of religion accompanied the British troops on the recent operations in India. Fifteen chaplains were attached to the several field forces, and no doubt rendered the office of religion to the troops whenever circumstances permitted of their doing so.

  ARE RABBITS VERMIN?
  MR. H. C. F. LUTTRELL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to a recent case in Scotland where it was laid down that rabbits are vermin, and thus prevents the necessity of farmers and cultivators of land in Scotland taking out a gun licence in order to shout rabbits; whether it is necessary for farmers and other cultivators of land in England and Wales to take out a gun licence in order to shoot rabbits; and whether, if it be necessary, he would take steps to alter the law so as to exempt persons from the necessity of taking out licences for this purpose in the future?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir MICHAEL HICKS BEACH,): My attention has been called to the case referred to by the hon. Member, but I understand that an appeal is being proceeded with.

  FIELD ARTILLERY.
  COLONEL C. W. LONG: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War how many men of the 56th Field Battery, R. A., were found disqualified for service when the battery was ordered to prepare for embarkation, and on what grounds; what was the number of men and horses required to fill up the battery to foreign service strength; from what source were the men and horses

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  respectively obtained; and how many men of under one year's service, and how many over one year's service, and how many horses remained in each of the batteries after the drafts had been taken to reinforce the 56th Battery?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. W. ST. JOHN BRODRICK,): When the 56th Field Battery was ordered to prepare for foreign service, it was found that three men were medically unfit, one was absent without leave, and 33 had not two years' service; and 12 more were required to complete the service establishment. The total thus wanting was 49; and to supply it and leave a margin for casualties 56 men were taken from other batteries—viz., seven from the 5th, 15 from the 8th, eight from the 9th, 10 from the 39th, 11 from the 68th, and five from the 78th. The men left in the batteries drawn upon, of under one year's service and over one year's service, respectively, were: 5th Battery, 19 and 97; 8th Battery, 69 and 51; 9th Battery, 13 and 79; 39th Battery, 58 and 57; 68th Battery, 74 and 59; 78th Battery, 52 and 72; but some of these batteries received back the men from the 56th Battery who were not yet fit for foreign service. The 56th Battery will not take horses with it.

  CLIFDEN INDUSTRIAL SCHOOL.
  MR. J. F. X. O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) whether he is satisfied that the Clifden (County Galway) Industrial School is doing excellent work in a poor district greatly needing the benefits conferred by that establishment; and (2) whether he is willing to enlarge the benefits so conferred by consenting to an extension of the certificate of that institution?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR,): I have no reason to believe that the Industrial School at Clifden is not doing its work in a satisfactory way. With regard to the second paragraph, I have nothing to add to the communication addressed to the hon. Member, by my directions, on the subject on the 8th. November last.
  MR. J. F. X. O'BRIEN: Is it too much to ask for a little money out of the millions you have taken from Ireland by over-taxation?
  [No Reply.]

  GUNS AT KINGHORN.
  LORD BALCARRES: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War, how many months the pair of 18-ton guns has been lying on the seashore at Kinghorn?
  MR. BRODRICK: The guns were removed from Inchkeith to their present position at Kinghorn-Ness in 1892. They would have been mounted long ago but for the difficulty in obtaining the site for a battery, which had at last to be taken compulsorily. It is expected that the works will be completed this year.

  EMPLOYERS' LIABILITY IN SCOTLAND.
  MR. JOHN WILSON: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate, if he intends upon an early date this Session to introduce a Bill providing that in Scotland jury trials arising out of claims for damages for personal injuries by workmen or their representatives against their employers shall only be competent in the Sheriff Court, and that this Bill shall include all claims whether at common law or under The Employers' Liability Act, 1880, or The Workmen (Compensation for Accidents) Act, 1897?
  MR. GRAHAM MURRAY: The hon. Member is aware that the subject matter of his Question is being considered by a Departmental Commission; and that a Bill was introduced a few days ago by the Government, dealing with the removal of cases from the Sheriff Court to the Court of Session for jury trial. In these circumstances it is not my intention to propose further legislation this Session.
  MR. J. WILSON: May I ask if the right hon. Gentleman will endeavour to bring in a Bill to

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  make the fourth clause of the Workmen's Compensation Act the same in England as in Scotland?
  MR. GRAHAM MURRAY: All these matters will fall within the scope of the inquiry by the Departmental Commission, and I cannot propose legislation until I see what that report will be.

  COAL STATIONS ABROAD.
  MR. R. MCKENNA: On behalf of my hon. Friend. Mr. D. A. Thomas (Merthyr Tydvil), I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he can state the sums expended during recent years upon our coaling stations abroad, and what amount, if any, is available for further expenditure; what amount has been expended on the defences of the South Wales coal ports: and, in the event, from any unforeseen cause, of a stoppage of supplies from these ports, what sources of supply of smokeless steam coal are available for the Navy and for stocking the coaling stations?
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Mr. J. POWELL-WILLIAMS,): Since 1885 £1,700,000 has been expended on works and armament at coaling stations abroad, of which a considerable portion has been contributed by the Indian and Colonial Governments. To complete the scheme £255,000 still remains to be expended. In the same period £72,000 has been spent on the defences of Milford Haven, and £16,000 on the Bristol Channel. The hypothetical question as to coal is rather for the Naval authorities than for the War Office.

  CASTLEBLAYNEY LEVEL CROSSING.
  MR. JAMES DALY: I beg to ask the. President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the Great Northern Railway Company, Ireland, have not yet erected a bridge over the level crossing at Castleblayney, though they promised to do so for the past two years; and, whether he can state what course he intends to take to prevent the loss of life over the crossing referred to?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. C. T. RITCHIE,): I think the hon. Member's Question must have been placed upon the Paper under some misconception of the facts. The general manager of the company informs me that the bridge is in course of erection by the contractor, and that seven columns are in position, He adds that good progress is being made, and the work will shortly be completed.
  MR. M. J. FLAVIN: Has the right hon. Gentleman power to compel a railway company to erect a bridge over a level crossing?
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! That does not arise out of the Question.

  THE NON-SMOKING ROOM FOR MEMBERS.
  MR. DALY: I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works whether, seeing that there is no telegraph in the only non-smoking reading room of the House of Commons, he will consider the desirability of erecting one there for the convenience of non-smoking Members of the House of Commons?
  THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. A. AKERS-DOUGLAS,): I am prepared to give the matter my consideration; perhaps he hon. Member will confer with me.

  POSTMISTRESS AT TULLYNAMALROW.
  MR. DALY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he has received a memorial from the inhabitants of Tullynamalrow and district, Castleblayney, requesting that Miss Flanagan be appointed a postmistress; and whether he can state what line he intends to take with respect to the desire of the memorialists in this case?
  MR. HANBURY: Yes, Sir; a memorial was received, asking that a sub post office might be established at Tullynamalrow under the charge of Miss Flanagan. The hon. Member himself wrote to the Postmaster General last December, in

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  support of the memorial, and was informed that the correspondence for the district was too small to warrant the establishment of such an office, but that arrangements had been made for extending the free delivery of letters to a number of places in the neighbourhood previously unserved.

  MARSH'S ESTATE.
  MR. DONAL SULLIVAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) what is the cause of the delay in the sale of Marsh's estate, in the townland of Creeve, Poor Law Union Athlone, County Westmeath; (2) whether he is aware that the landlords agreed some years ago to sell the estate to the tenants on it under the 40th Section of the Land Act; and (3) if he will take steps to hasten the completion of the sale?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I am informed by the registrar of the Land Judge's Court that the rental for sale of the Marsh estate is now nearly ready, and that there has not been any undue delay. I have no knowledge of the matter alluded to in the second paragraph, and have no power to take action as suggested in the third paragraph.

  PENSION PAYMENTS.
  SIR JOHN LENG: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether the payments to pensioners in the lower grades of the Civil Service can be deposited for their benefit in the nearest Post Office Savings Bank, so that they may be drawn more frequently than once in three months, as at present?
  MR. HANBURT: The hon. Member is mistaken in thinking that Civil Service pensioners are unable at present to draw their pensions more frequently than once in three months. The option is allowed to all such pensioners of being paid either monthly or quarterly; and I understand that about 75 per cent. of them avail themselves of the power to receive their pensions monthly. The Post Office
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  Savings Banks are intended to facilitate saving, not to be used as a channel for payment. Besides adding greatly to the work of the Paymaster General's Department, the method of payment suggested in the Question would impose additional expenditure upon the Savings Banks Fund, to the prejudice of the depositors for whose benefit the banks exist.

  FREE SCHOOL BOOKS.
  COLONEL J. M. DENNY: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate if it be the duty of School Boards to supply gratis school books to the children of those parents who are not in a position to purchase such themselves?
  MR. GRAHAM MURRAY: The question of the liability of School Boards, who may be in receipt of Fee Grant, to supply school books gratis, is one which can only be decided authoritatively by a Court of Law. There does not appear to be anything in the Education Acts which lays an obligation upon School Boards in Scotland to supply books if claimed on account of poverty.

  TREATY OF COMMERCE WITH MOROCCO.
  MR. W. HAZELL: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Her Majesty's Government has resumed negotiations with the Moorish Government with regard to a new Treaty of Commerce, by which the present almost prohibitory restrictions on our commercial relations with that country would be removed?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. G. N. CURZON,): The negotiations for the conclusion of a Treaty of Commerce between Great Britain and Morocco have not been resumed, no favourable opportunity for doing so having recently occurred.

  TRAWLING IN THE MORAY FIRTH.
  DR. G. B. CLARK: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether, as the fishermen in the North of Scotland have chartered at their own expense a steamer

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  to patrol the Moray Firth to prevent illegal trawling in that district, as the cruisers employed by the Government are insufficient in number and deficient in speed, arrangements will be made to provide efficient cruisers to detect and prevent illegal trawling in the protected districts of the North of Scotland?
  MR. GRAHAM MURRAY: I understand from the Fishery Board that a steamer was chartered for the purpose stated, but, so far as I know, she has failed to detect any British trawlers fishing within the prescribed area. She certainly is not faster than, nor, indeed, so fast, as the Government cruisers which have been patrolling the Moray Firth.

  IMPRISONMENT FOR CONTEMPT OF COURT.
  MR. J. P. HAYDEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) whether he is aware that an evicted tenant named Thomas Killian and his brother, belonging to the neighbourhood of Four Roads, Roscommon, have been detained in prison for some months on an allegation of contempt of court; and (2) whether the Government propose to take any action in this and similar cases to amend the Law with respect to punishments for contempt of court?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I am informed that Thomas Killian and his brother were committed to Tullamore Prison on the 22nd and 25th November last, respectively, for contempt under an Order of the Court of Chancery. The responsibility for the proceedings in such cases rests altogether with the Court, and the Executive have no power to interfere in any way. The Government do not propose to take any action in the direction suggested in the second paragraph of the Question.

  SALLEEN PIER.
  MR. FLAVIN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that great inconvenience is caused in the shipping of cattle,
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  horses, etc., for want of suitable accommodation, at Salleen Pier, County Kerry; whether inquiries have been made from the harbour master in connection with the very small improvements necessary; and whether the Board of Works has instituted an inquiry; if so, what is the result?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR.: Inquiry has been made by the Board of Works as to the accommodation at this pier, and although, judging from the small amount received for dues on cattle, horses, etc., it would not appear that any great inconvenience has been caused by reason of the alleged inadequate accommodation, yet it is believed that if the accommodation were improved the trade in cattle would increase. The matter will be further considered.
  MR. FLAVIN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that cattle have actually been killed while being transhipped from the pier?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: No, Sir, I have not heard that.

  BALLYHEIGUE BAY FISHERIES.
  MR. FLAVIN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) if he is aware that C. H. Smith, divisional officer at Ballyheigue, County Kerry, has reported that large shoals of herring, mackerel, and other fish appear in Ballyheigue Bay; (2) whether he has called the attention of the Congested Districts Board to the matter; and (3) whether, with a view of developing the fishing industry, a suitable pier will be erected, as recommended by the divisional officer?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: In May last I informed the hon. Member that the construction of a boat-slip at Ballyheigue had been under the consideration of the Congested Districts Board, but that the project was abandoned. The matter has since been again before the Board, who, however, have not seen their way to take any further action in the matter. I have no knowledge of the report referred to in the first paragraph of the Question.
  MR. FLAVIN: I will ask the right hon. Gentleman why this portion of County Kerry has been neglected by the Congested Districts Board?
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, Order! That is arguing—a thing which the hon. Member is in the habit of doing.
  MR. FLAVIN: I did not wish to argue, Sir; I wish merely to suggest the neglect.
  MR. SPEAKER: I do not know what the hon. Member wished to do; but he was, as a matter of fact, arguing.

  TELEGRAPHIC COMMUNICATION WITH MELBOURNE.
  MR. J. F. HOGAN: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he is aware that telegraphic communication with Melbourne and Sydney has repeatedly been interrupted during the past five months; who is responsible for the satisfactory maintenance of the Australian transcontinental telegraph line on which the interruptions occurred; and whether any steps can be taken by Her Majesty's Government to prevent these: repeated failures of communication?
  MR. HANBURY: The interruptions mentioned in the Question occurred on both the transcontinental lines. These are maintained by the South Australian and Western Australian Colonies respectively. Her Majesty's Government is not in a position to take any steps to prevent the failures of communication, which are, it is understood, caused by storms. The cable companies have, however, put forward a scheme, in connection with the question of an alternative cable service, for taking a cable direct to a point near Adelaide, and this will, no doubt, be duly considered by the Colonies concerned.

  SALE OF SPIRITS IN THE NEW EBRIDES.
  MR. HOGAN: I beg to ask the under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received a reply to the remonstrance addressed to the French
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  Government against the sale of spirits and firearms to the natives of the New Hebrides by French traders; and whether French traders, equally with British traders, will be debarred for the future from engaging in this traffic?
  MR. CURZON: NO answer has yet been received to the representations addressed to the French Government on the subject. Her Majesty's Ambassador at Paris will be again instructed to call attention to the matter.

  UNSUITABLE PUBLIC BUILDINGS.
  MR. HOGAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the fact that bazaars and public meetings are frequently held in premises that are unsuitable for such purposes, he contemplates introducing a Measure this Session to give local authorities full rights of jurisdiction and control over all buildings for public assemblies?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT: Outside the County of London, the matter appears to be adequately dealt with by the provision in section 36 of the Public Health Act, 1890. As regards the enactment of a similar provision for London, I will consult, with my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board. I am afraid the Government cannot itself undertake legislation this Session, but I should be disposed to regard favourably any proposals to this effect that may be made.

  SUB-POSTMASTERS AND THE JUBILEE CONCESSIONS.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, will he explain on what grounds the Post Office Department have called upon sub-postmasters to bear part of the cost of the concessions granted to the public on Jubilee Day, 1897, by reducing their allowances for the delivery of all telegrams beyond one mile at the rate of from 25 to 30 per cent.; and whether

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  sub-postmasters were asked if they were willing to bear this share of the cost of the Postal Jubilee concessions?
  MR. HANBURY: It is not the fact that sub-postmasters have been called upon to bear any part of the cost of the concessions granted to the public on Jubilee Day, 1897, in consequence of the reduction in the allowances for the delivery of telegrams beyond one mile. Allowances of this kind are necessarily the subject of revision from time to time, and are fixed in accordance with the scale which experience from time to time proves is requisite for the service. As a matter of fact, the large extension of cycling in England has enabled the Department to effect a considerable reduction in the cost of delivery over three miles and a smaller reduction in the cost of delivery between one mile and three miles. But the allowances now in force are believed to be adequate. If, however, in any particular district they should, from any cause, be inadequate, they will be increased as circumstances may require.

  POWERS OF PARISH COUNCILS.
  SIR WALTER FOSTER: I bog to ask the President of the Local Government Board (1) whether Parish Councils are authorised under Section 13, Sub-section 2, of the Local Government Act, 1891, to undertake the repair and maintenance of any public footpaths not being at the side of a public road; (2) and whether the auditors of the Local Government Board are authorised to disallow outlay on the repair and improvement of stiles necessary to maintain such footpaths in a condition for convenient use by the public?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL COYERNMENT BOARD (Mr. H. CHAPLIN,): The answer to the first Question is in the affirmative. As to the second, I am advised that the duty of repairing stiles is in general imposed by law on the owner of the fence of which the stile is part. The Board cannot express any general opinion as to the powers of Parish Councils to expend money in the repair or improvement of stiles. Any disallowance made
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  of such expenditure by an auditor would be subject to appeal to the Board, and, in any such case, all the circumstances would have to be considered.

  SURGEON-COLONELS.
  SIR WALTER FOSTER: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of Slate for War whether there is any rule in the Army Medical Department that surgeon colonels who are over 57 years of age are debarred from promotion to the rank of surgeon-major general; if so, whether such a rule has ever been published; whether it has been applied to any officers, and, if so, to how many, and, whether, if applied retrospectively, any compensation has been, or will be, granted, as was the case when the age of retirement was altered by the warrant of 1858?
  MR. BRODRICK: All promotion to the higher grades on the Army Medical Staff are by selection, and, consequently, failure to be promoted is not a ground for compensation. It has been for some years the practice not to promote officers over the age of 57 years to the rank of surgeon-major general, unless in very exceptional circumstances, as it is regarded as essential that an officer in that rank shall have at least three years to serve. The rule has not been published, and has applied, so far, to three officers.

  LARNE HARBOUR.
  COLONEL J. MCCALMONT: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty (1) whether he is aware that on the occasion of the visit of their Royal Highnesses the Duke and Duchess of York to Ireland last year, arrangements having been made for their departure from Larne Harbour, exception was taken by Admiral Fullerton to carrying out this detail, on the grounds that he could not take Her Majesty's yacht Victoria and Albert into that port, as she was 320 feet long, drawing 16 feet of water, and there was but 400 feet of swinging room; (2) whether the Admiral's

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  statement as to the capacity of the harbour is borne out by the Admiralty charts; and (3) whether he is aware that vessels of greater length than the Victoria and Albert frequently enter this harbour?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. W. G. E. MACAKTNEY,): The Admiralty had no responsibility for the movements of the Royal yacht during the visit of their Royal Highnesses the Duke and Duchess of York to Ireland last year, nor are they aware of the arrangements which were made. The Admiralty have no information as to the statements made by Admiral Fullerton. The depth in the deepest part of Larne Harbour is 20 to 25 feet. The swinging room between the contour lines of 18 feet is 240 feet, and between the contour lines of 14 feet, 330 feet. There is no information at the Admiralty as to the subject-matter of the third paragraph.
  COLONEL MCCALMONT: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the larger ships built by Messrs. Harland and Wolff go into this harbour?
  MR. MACARTNEY: I am not, Sir.
  DR. C. K. TANNER: But they cannot turn round.

  HORSE BREEDING IN IRELAND.
  COLONEL MCCALMONT: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, whether, in view of the majority Report of the Royal Commission on Horse Breeding in Ireland, it is intended to continue the stud farm of hackney horses in County Dublin; and, whether, in consideration of the fact that, the introduction of hackney blood into Ireland has not met with approval, he would consider the advisability of utilising the money now expended on the stud farm in still further improving the breed of cattle, sheep, pigs, poultry, etc., through the congested districts?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: This matter is one for the consideration if the Congested Districts Board, but I cannot hold out to my hon. and gallant Friend any hope that the
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  Board are likely to agree to a complete reversal of their policy upon the Report of a Commission so divided in opinion as the Horse Breeding Commission was.

  SPORTING DOGS AND THE MUZZLING ORDER.
  MR. MCKENNA: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether he can state approximately the total number of dogs which are exempted from time to time from muzzling under the exemption allowed to sporting dogs; and what kinds of sport are included in the official use of the term "sporting"?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE: As the hon. Member is aware, sporting dogs are only exempted from the requirements of the Muzzling Order now in force while they are being used for sporting purposes, and I have no means of forming any estimate of the number of dogs thus temporarily relieved from those requirements. It would rest with the Courts, if necessary, to determine in each particular case whether the exemption was or was not rightly claimed.
  MR. T. BAYLEY: Are foxhounds on their way to and from a meet compelled to be muzzled?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE: That is a point which rests with the magistrates. So far as my opinion is worth anything, I should say "Certainly not."
  MR. BAYLEY: The right hon. Gentleman said that sporting dogs only are exempted, but—
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Member must not argue.
  MR. P. O'BRIEN: Will the right hon. Gentleman extend the Muzzling Order to the rats which eat the wheat while the dogs are muzzled?
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order!

  SPORTING DOGS AND RABIES.
  MR. MCKENNA: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether he can state the number of recorded cases of rabies which have occurred amongst sporting dogs in any or all of the years 1887 to 1897, inclusive?
  THE PRHSIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE: There is no record, nor have the officers of my Department, ever heard of any case in which a sporting dog has been found to be rabid or known to have been capable of conveying infection while been used for sporting purposes and exempt from the requirements of Muzzling Orders imposed during the period to which the hon. Member refers.
  MR. MCKENNA: Am I to understand that the Board of Agriculture have no knowledge of any case of rabies breaking out in the kennels of fox or greyhounds?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE: I did not say that, Sir. I said no case had been discovered in sporting dogs when being used for sporting purposes, this being the only time when the exemption applies.
  MR. MCKENNA: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean while sporting dogs are being used for sporting purposes only?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE: I mean exactly what I said.

  IRISH ANTIQUITIES.
  MR. W. H. K. REDMOND: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether any steps can be taken to transfer from the British Museum the ancient gold ornaments recently discovered in Ireland to the National Museum in Dublin, where all the other similar ornaments are on view in the Department of Irish antiquities.
  MR. HANBURY: The ornaments are: a collar, a tore, and part of another, a small bowl, a, model of a boat, with oars, etc., and two plaited chains—all of gold. They were first brought to public notice by being exhibited at the Society of Antiquaries in January, 1897, and an
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  account was afterwards published. They were purchased by the British Museum, I in the usual way of business, in April, from a, private person who, it is understood, had obtained them from a dealer. Having been purchased and paid for, they are incorporated in the British Museum collections, and, being neither duplicates nor unfit to be preserved in the Museum, they cannot be transferred without, an Act of Parliament. It is obviously incorrect to say that "all the other similar ornaments are on view in the Department of Irish Antiquaries." The British Museum has a fair representation of Irish archæolopy, and specimens are in other collections.
  MR. W. REDMOND: May I ask whether, in view of the desirability of having these ornaments and other antiquities in Ireland, the right hon. Gentleman cannot see his way to propose a Bill for their removal?
  MR. HANBURY: I hardly think we can ask Parliament to do that.
  MR. SWIFT MCNEILL: Are not these ornaments treasure-trove? If the English Government bought them are they not receivers of stolen goods?
  [No Reply.]

  IRISH LIGHT RAILWAYS.
  MR. W. REDMOND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether as the £500,000 recently granted for the extension of the light railway system has been exhausted, an additional sum for the same purpose will be granted?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I am afraid I cannot add anything to my reply to the similar Question addressed to me on the 18th ult. by the hon. Member for West Cavan.
  MR. W. REDMOND: Is it not a, fact that several schemes for the extension of light railways in Ireland cannot be gone on with for lack of funds?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I am not aware of that. Perhaps the hon. Member refers to some proposal with regard to Clare, but he must

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  be well aware that that was dropped in consequence of the action of hon. Members opposite.

  DUM-DUM BULLETS.
  MR. M. DAVITT: On behalf of the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon), I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether the Government have received any medical reports as to the effect of Dum-Dum bullets on men or animals in India?
  MR. SWIFT MCNEILL: At the same time I will ask the noble Lord whether the specific quality of the Dum-Dum bullets supplied to the British troops to be used against the Afridis consists in crushing and pulverising the bone so as to defy all surgical skill employed in setting; in what respects are the Dum-Dum bullets less calculated than explosive bullets, to inflict incurable injury; and, what is the authority for the statement that the Dum-Dum bullets are consonant with international law or the usages of civilised warfare?
  THE SECRETAEY OF STATE FOR INDIA: As Questions No. 45 and No. 72 relate to the same subject, I may perhaps be allowed to answer them together. According to the information supplied to me, the effects of this bullet are not more serious (indeed, I believe, they are less serious) than those of the old Snider bullet nor than those of the Martini-Henry bullet. But, on the other hand, as was clearly shown during the Chitral expedition, the Lee-Metford bullet frequently failed to attain the object with which, all missiles are discharged in war, namely, that of disabling the enemy with the least possible suffering. The Dum-Dum bullet fulfils this purpose, as did the bullets previously used by the British Army, and fulfils it in the same way. That the use of the Dum-Dum bullet is consonant with international law, as set forth in the terms of the St. Petersburg Convention of 1868, is perfectly clear, inasmuch as what the Convention forbids is the use of any explosive projectile, below a certain weight, "charged with fulminating or inflammable matter." I have received as yet no medical reports from India on the effects of the Dum-Dum
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  bullets in the recent engagements, but I have asked the Government of India to expedite this information.
  MR. SWIFT MCNEILL: The noble Lord has promised what he has not performed. He said he would answer my Question, but has not done so.
  MR. SPEAKER: Order! If the Question has not been fully answered the hon. Member can ask for further information.
  MR. SWIFT MCNEILL: I wish to know whether the specific quality of the Dum-Dum bullet supplied to British troops to be used against the Afridis consists in crushing and pulverising the bone so as to defy all surgical skill employed in setting. Secondly, in what respects are the Dum-Dum bullets loss calculated than explosive bullets to inflict incurable injury?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA: There is no doubt that the so-called Dum-Dum bullets inflicts a more serious wound than a bullet from the Lee-Metford rifle, but not more so than the bullet previously in use. I believe anyone can convert the Lee-Metford bullet into a Dum-Dum bullet by simply flattening its head.
  COLONEL SIR HOWARD VINCENT: Has the noble Lord any information as to the use of the Dum-Dum bullets by the Afridis against British troops?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA: I have already answered that Question. It is assumed that what ammunition they got they took from a British transport or convoy.

  SALISBURY PLAIN.
  MR. G. LAMBERT: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether the negotiations for the purchase of the manœuvring ground on Salisbury Plain has been completed; if so, whether for the information of Members, he will provide or exhibit in the Tea Room a map showing the locality and limits of the ground. And whether he will give a return showing the number of acres purchased, the total price paid,

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  the details of the expenses of the transaction, the names of the former proprietors, with the acreage bought from and sums paid to each of them?
  MR. BRODRICK: The negotiations are proceeding rapidly, but are not yet completed. When the various purchases have been arranged, a detailed return can be given if moved for.
  MR. LAMBERT: Will the right hon. Gentleman give me a return on the basis suggested in the Question?
  MR. BRODRICK: I will consider that, if the hon. Member will confer with me.

  LIVE SCALE INSECTS.
  MR. LAMBERT: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether in cases of American pears imported into Hamburg large quantities of live scale insects were found, which were quite capable of contaminating the orchards of that country; and, whether any danger of like infection from similar causes exists in this country; if so, having regard to the growing importance of orchards, will he take prompt steps to prevent any infection?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE: The official information which we have received from the German Government goes to show that the reply to the first inquiry is in the affirmative. With regard to the second, I cannot say that there is no fear of the arrival of the pest in question in this country, and, as I indicated in reply to the Question put to me by my hon. Friend for the Woodstock Division on Tuesday last, I am in communication with experts on the subject with a view to ascertain whether any practical steps could be taken by us in the interest of British fruit-growers.

  THE PORT ROYAL ESTATE.
  MR. DAVITT: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Congested Districts Beard have purchased the Port Royal estate in the Partry District?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Yes, Sir, I am glad to say the purchase of this estate by the Congested Districts Board has been completed.

  RUSSIA AND MANCHURIA.
  SIR ELLIS ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Her Majesty's Government, have any information as to the reported advance of Russian troops into Manchuria, and especially to Kirin, the capital of that province; and whether the forts at Port Arthur are in the occupation of Russian Forces?
  MR. CURZON: We have had no confirmation of the rumours in question. There are now no forts in existence at Port Arthur.
  SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: Are there any Russian forces on land at Port Arthur?
  MR. CURZON: Nut that I am aware of.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Are there any Turkish forces there?
  [No Reply.]

  THE CASE OF JAMES FITZHARRIS.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the case of James Fitzharris, at present in Maryboro' Jail, who has been over 15 years a prisoner; and whether, having regard to his great age, and to the recent death of his wife, he will take his case into consideration with a view to recommending him for the clemency of the Crown?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The convict named in the Question was sentenced in 1883 to penal servitude for life, and has now been over 15 years in prison. His age, on conviction, was 43 years; I believe it to be the fact that his wife died recently, as stated. His case will be brought up for consideration in the ordinary course next month.

  TRINITY HOUSE WORKMEN.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether it is a fact that the Corporation of the Trinity House have not only reverted from the eight hours a day to 54 a week for the men employed in their workshops, but have also, simultaneously on the lengthening of the hours, reduced the minimum rate of wage for their engineers from 39s. to 38s. 3d.; whether, when the Corporation made application to him last year to sanction the introduction of the eight hours' day, it was understood that the experiment should have at least a twelve-month's trial; and whether he will lay upon the Table of the House copies of the correspondence that passed on the subject between the Board of Trade and the Corporation of the Trinity House?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE: The Board of Trade have no information as to whether the Corporation of Trinity House have reduced the minimum rate of wages for their engineers, us the sanction of the Board would not be required except in cases of increased expenditure. There was no understanding that the introduction of the eight hours' day should have at least twelve months' trial, the sanction of the Board to the additional expenditure was asked as a temporary measure. I shall be happy to show the correspondence to the hon. Member, but it is not necessary to publish it.

  POST OFFICE SAVINGS BANKS.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, having regard to the fact that in the Supplementary Estimates for Civil Services recently issued it is stated under Class VI. that the deficiency in the Post Office Savings Banks Fund for 1896 proved greater than was anticipated in February, 1897, and that the Estimate of £3,791, which was voted by Parliament in the early part of last Session, has to be supplemented by a further sum of £2,371, will he state whether this deficiency of £6,162 in the Post Office Savings Banks Fund is for the year ending 31st December, 1896; and will he
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  explain why this inaccurate Estimate, made on 22nd February, 1897, remained undetected on the 29th July, 1897, the date on which the Postmaster General signed his annual report?
  MR. HANBURY: The deficiency of £6,162 in the Post Office Savings Banks Fund mentioned in the Supplementary Estimates for 1897–98 is for the year ending the 31st December, 1896. The sum of £3,791 mentioned in the Postmaster General's Report of last year as the amount of the deficiency was the Estimate made early in the year, and which appeared in the Supplementary Estimates of 1896–97. At the time the Report was prepared the Postmaster General was not aware that the National Debt Commissioners had revised their estimate of the deficiency.

  MILITIA EXAMINATIONS.
  COLONEL MCCALMONT: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether, in regard to the increased number of commissions to be given through the Militia, it is intended to revert to the old minimum of 3,000 marks for qualifying in the literary examination?
  MR. BRODRICK: The question of the standard to be attained by candidates for commissions is at present under consideration. When a decision is arrived at public notification of it will be made.

  THE IRISH LAND COMMISSION.
  MR. D. MACALEESE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, if any legislation will be attempted in the present Session of Parliament to settle on equitable lines the question of future tenancies in Ireland, by bringing such tenancies for rent-fixing purposes within the jurisdiction of the Land Commission?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The reply to this Question is in the negative.

  BELFAST LINEN FACTORIES.
  MR. MACALEESE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department will he lay upon the Table of the

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  House the Report, when furnished, of the special inspector sent from Manchester to Belfast to investigate the alleged in-sanitary state of the linen factories in that city; and can he state when the Report is likely to be received at the Home Office.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT: It is not usual to lay ordinary Departmental Reports of this kind before Parliament. The inquiry is now proceeding, and the inspector, who is conducting it, has, I understand, already sent in some reports. When it is concluded, I shall be glad to inform the hon. Member of the result.

  THE PRINCETOWN POSTMASTER.
  MR. LUTTRELL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether his attention has been culled to the action of Mr. Tooker, postmaster, and two of his staff at Princetown, who on Tuesday last volunteered to go through deep snow from Princetown to Yelverton and back across Dartmoor, so that the Prinetown letters might be received and delivered that day; and whether he will cause some recognition of this praiseworthy conduct to be made?
  MR. HANBURY: The Postmaster General's attention has not yet been called to the action of the postmaster of Princetown and members of his staff in fetching the mails through the snow from Yelverton; but he has called for a Report on the subject.

  GRANTS IN AID OF IRISH LOCAL RATES.
  ME. J. J. CLANCY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will give particulars of the grants in aid of local rates in Ireland which it is proposed shall cease to be made in the passing of the Local Government (Ireland) Bill?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The grants in aid referred to in the Question are
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  the grant in aid of the maintenance of pauper lunatics in asylums; the contribution of one-half of the salaries of medical officers of workhouses and dispensaries, and of one-half of their salaries as sanitary officers; the whole of the salaries of schoolmasters and schoolmistresses in workhouse; and the payment of one-half of the cost of medicines and medical and surgical appliances.

  BOYS FOR THE NAVY.
  COMMANDER G. R. BETHELL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he will state the number of boys entered under the new system (i.e., at a later age and for a short period of training) in each of the six months ending 30th June and 31st December, 1897, and the total number thus entered into the Service?
  MR. MACARTNEY: The number of boys entered in the sea-going training ships in the half-yearly periods specified were 631 and 545 respectively. The total number entered into the Service from this source is 3,438.

  THE WELLS DISASTER.
  MR. SAMUEL, HOARE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he has received any further information with reference to the serious calamity at Wells; and whether the widows and families of the men who have so unfortunately lost their lives on service will be entitled to any special grants from the Admiralty?
  MR. MACARTNEY: I am unable to give any further information, as the inquiries, which are being held, have not been concluded. Steps are being taken to obtain particulars as to the widows, children, and dependent relatives of the men who lost their lives, and the cases will be dealt with in accordance with the regulations under which they are eligible for pensions and other benefits.

  THE POSTMEN'S PARK.
  MR. H. C. STEPHENS: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he is aware that the payment of £2,500 to the Post Office authorities by the Commissioners of Sewers has the condition attached that the money is to be applied to the purchase of the vacant land in Little Britain as an open space for ever; and that the vicar and churchwardens of St. Botolph are willing to undertake the maintenance of the whole garden; and whether, as the acquisition of the frontage to Little Britain for the Post Office property will increase light and air and give greater security from fire, he will give further consideration to the matter?
  MR. HANBURY: This is a Question for the Treasury. I am informed by the Post Office that the condition mentioned by my hon. Friend was attached to the purchase, but I have little doubt that in any case the payment will be made. The vicar and churchwardens are willing to undertake the maintenance of the garden, but only if the funds for doing so are provided out of the public purse. The matter has been fully considered, and the advantages named in the Question are not considerable, and are not such as to justify so large an expenditure of public funds.
  MR. STEPHENS: Arising out of the answer, may I ask if the condition mentioned in the Question was attached to the payment?
  MR. HANBURY: Yes, Sir, the condition was attached, but it was not so attached in accordance with the Treasury sanction, and we cannot recognise it. We shall expect the money to be paid.

  THE KOSSOVO OUTRAGES.
  MR. JOHN ELLIS: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Mr. Eliot, as representing the British Government, is instructed to take such steps as will ensure his acquiring full, accurate, and independent information respecting the outrages committed in the villayet of
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  Kossovo; and when his report may be expected to be in the possession of Members?
  MR. CURZON: Mr. Eliot's instructions, of course, authorised him to obtain information by the best means in his power. He was instructed to report for the information of the Government, and I am unable to say whether his report will be suitable for presentation until the sittings of the Commission are at an end and the report has been received.
  MR. JAMES LOWTHER: Do the duties of this official require him to inquire into outrages by Christians as well as by Mahomedans, or only into the latter?
  MR. CURZON: He was instructed to inquire into the whole affair.
  MR. JAMES LOWTHER: Only going into one side or both?
  MR. CURZON: Naturally his duty would be to report on every aspect of the case.

  THE AGRICULTURAL RATINGS ACT.
  MR. G. H. MORRELL: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether a rate made by a Burial Board in a rural parish in England, inasmuch as under the Agricultural Ratings Act it is not a rate made by a spending authority, is a rate to which the provisions of that Act applies; and whether the occupier of agricultural land exempt under the Agricultural Ratings Act from half of the rates to which that Act applies is entitled to exemption from half of the Burial Rate?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD: When the expenses of a Burial Board are, in the case of a Rural District, paid out of the Poor Rate, or rate in the nature of a Poor Rate, the occupier of agricultural land is entitled to exemption from payment of one-half of the Burial Rate.

  CANDIDATES FOR ARMY COMMISSIONS.
  MR. A. M. BROOKFIELD: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether it is the case that candidates for commissions in the Army

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  are liable, by existing regulations, to be rejected on medical grounds after they have otherwise passed their examination; and, whether, in view of the disappointment and years of useless study that may thus be involved, he will consider the desirability of sanctioning a preliminary medical examination of candidates for commissions in the Army upon their paying a fee?
  MR. BRODRICK: The whole conditions as to the medical fitness required are published; and any candidate can, at any period of his training, ascertain by reference to a civil practitioner if he satisfies them. But the Secretary of State is willing to consider whether arrangements cannot be made for a preliminary examination by a Medical Board in the case of candidates who may desire such an examination.

  RUSSIA, GERMANY, AND CHINA.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Her Majesty's Government will present to Parliament the communications which have passed between the British Government and the Governments of Russia and Germany in regard to the occupation of places on the coast of China by the last-mentioned Governments?
  MR. CURZON: It is too soon at present to lay any Papers, since the negotiations are still proceeding. But the Government hope to be able to do so at a later date.
  SIR W. HARCOURT: Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that negotiations are still proceeding with Germany and Russia?
  MR. CURZON: Yes, Sir.

  RUSSIA, GREAT BRITAIN, AND CHINA.
  SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Russian Government, in giving their pledge as to open ports and free commerce in China,
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  gave any undertaking that the commerce of Great Britain should have the same rights as Russian commerce in any Chinese territory that may fall under Russian occupation?
  MR. CURZON: There has been no question of the occupation by Russia of Chinese territory, apart from a port, the conditions as to the opening of which have previously been given to the House; and no such undertaking as is mentioned in the Question has consequently been given.

  RUSSIA AND COREA.
  SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Her Majesty's Government have confirmation of the report that the Russians have occupied Deer Island, opposite Fusan, in Southern Corea?
  MR. CURZON: The Russian authorities in Corea are believed to be in negotiation with the Corean Government for the establishment of a coal depôt on Deer Island, where the Japanese already possess a similar site. But we have heard nothing of a Russian occupation.
  SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: Is there anything to prevent them doing it?
  MR. CURZON: I do not think there is anything whatever to prevent the Corean Government giving a site for a coal depôt to the Russian Government or any other Government.

  THE JUTE INDUSTRY IN INDIA.
  SIR JOHN LENG: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India, whether he is aware, that in the jute manufacturing industry of India, which gives employment to nearly 100,000 persons, increasing complaints are made of the long hours, of working day and night under the electric light; and that the Jute Association of Calcutta are almost unanimously in favour of closing the mills early on Saturday and giving the European

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  employees their Sunday rest, which is only prevented by the refusal of one or two employers; and whether he will recommend legislation by the Government of Bengal to carry out the views of the large majority of employers, as recommended by the special Inspector of Factories?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA: (1) My information on the subject is contained in the following extract of a letter from the Government of India, dated the 16th December last, which, with permission of the House, I will read. The Government of India say—
  "On the report (that is the Factory Inspector's report) for 1895 the Lieutenant-Governor of Bengal expressed a hope that the members of the Jute Association and other employers would take into their serious consideration the question of closing mills early on Saturday for purposes of cleaning and repairs, so as to give the European employees their Sunday rest. The matter was discussed by the Jute Association, but not with beneficial effect, as, although all but one of the mills were in favour of closing at three o'clock on Saturday, the agents in Dundee of that mill refuse to consent to the Measure. Thus all the mills are kept working as before. The Government of Bengal intends to bring the matter to the notice of the Bengal Chamber of Commerce. We are awaiting the result of that reference before deciding what action should be taken in the matter."
  (2) In these circumstances I do not propose to take any step until I hear further from India.

  DANISH TRAWLERS IN MORAY FIRTH.
  MR. HEDDERWICK: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether his attention has been drawn to the recent statement of the captain of the Danish trawler Dania, who arrived in Aberdeen from the Moray Firth on the 13th February, to the effect that he left three other Danish trawlers in the Firth, and that very poor catches are being obtained there, the scarcity being due to the Germans having been fishing in the Firth all last winter; and, whether, having regard to the rapid denudation of so valuable a fishery indicated by the above statement, the Government will take active and immediate steps to secure the adequate protection of the native line fishermen and the preservation of their industry from the continued depredations of trawlers?
  MR. GRAHAM MURRAY: I am informed by the Board that a statement in the terms quoted was recently made to the Fishery Officer at Aberdeen by the captain of the Dania, but that they have no means of verifying it. The line fishermen, I am also informed, complain of a scarcity of haddocks, but the complaints are general and not confined to the Moray Firth.

  THE NEW FISHERY CRUISER.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate, if he will state in what respect the specification, dated 20th March, 1897, has been departed from in the contract for the new fishery cruiser; on what date was the contract signed; and, on what date is the vessel to be delivered to the Fishery Board by the contractors, Messrs. J. Reid and Co.?
  MR. GRAHAM MURRAY: The specification was departed from in the matter of length, which has been increased from 110 to 135 feet, to ensure greater seaworthiness; the contract was signed on 22nd December 1807; the vessel will be delivered as soon as possible.

  MR. DONALDSON'S APPOINTMENT.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office, if he will state the period for which. Mr. Donaldson has been engaged as Superintendent of the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield, and the salary attaching to that appointment; and, will he state the terms of Mr. Donaldson's appointment as Deputy Director General of Ordnance Factories?
  MR. POWELL-WILLIAMS: Mr. Donaldson has been appointed under a Civil Service Certificate, on the usual conditions. His salary is £1,500 a year.
  MR. WEIR: The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the second paragraph.
  MR. POWELL-WILLIAMS: Yes, I said they were the usual terms under the Civil Service Certificate.
  MR. WEIR: What are they?
  MR. POWELL-WILLIAMS: The hon. Member must get the information elsewhere.

  THE POSTMASTER GENERAL'S REPORT.
  Mr. J. G. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, will he explain why the report of the Postmaster General for the year 1896–7 was not issued until long after the House rose for the Autumn Recess; and will efforts be made to issue the report for the current financial year during the present Session of Parliament, in accordance with the practice of former years?
  MR. HANBURY: The issue of the annual report on the Post Office was delayed last year by a number of exceptional circumstances, but it is hoped that this year's report will be published before the close of the present Session. As the hon. Member is aware, the report comes down to the 31st of March in each year, and some time must necessarily elapse after that date before the accounts can be got in with sufficient approach to completion for the purpose of the report.
  MR. WEIR: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the report last year was not issued until two months after it was laid on the Table of the House?
  MR. HANBURY: It was only laid on the Table in dummy, I presume.

  LEWIS FISHERMEN'S ASSOCIATION.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate, whether the Secretary for Scotland has received copies of four resolutions on the subject of Sea Police and Illegal Trawling, which were moved respectively by Provost Anderson, County Councillor M'Leod, Baillie
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  J. M. Morison, and Donald Mackenzie (Secretary to the Lewis Fishermen's Association), and carried unanimously at a mass meeting of fishermen and others held at the Drill Hall. Stornoway, on the 5th January last; and will he state how the Government propose to meet the requests contained in those resolutions?
  MR. GRAHAM MURRAY: The Secretary for Scotland has received copies of the resolutions referred to; the request contained in the first will be met by the new vessels now building for the Fishery Board. That in the second would require legislation, which cannot at present be undertaken.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  INDEPENDENCE OF CHINESE TERRITORY.
  *SIR ELLIS ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: The great importance of our commercial and political relations with China, and the remarkable interest which has been shown by the people of this country in the recent crisis in the Far East, will be sufficient justfication for the Motion which I have placed upon the Paper to-night. I do not wish to take up the time of the House at any excessive length on this question; I wish to deal with it rather generally, because it is of the first importance that we should establish a general principle in dealing with this matter—a principle which will be a guide for the future, and which will enable the people of this country to understand whether or not British interests in the Northern Pacific and in China are being maintained. The essential principle of British interests in Northern China and in the Northern Pacific is, in my opinion, the maintenance of the integrity and independence of the Chinese territory. Unless this is done other arrangements can merely be temporary makeshifts, and disturbances may arise at very

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  short notice. The pledges, for example, as to "free commerce" and "open ports," which have been given by the Russian Government to this country, in exceedingly ambiguous terms, would obviously be of no value whatever, even if they were maintained in the letter, provided that the Russian Power was allowed to overrun and control any important portion of Chinese territories. The most remarkable fact of recent years—certainly of the last 20 years—has been the extraordinary advance of the Russian Power, and especially in the Northern Pacific, in North-East Asia. The Russian Power, nobody can deny, has enormously increased, both by sea and by land. Russia is now absolute mistress of the Black Sea; and the Russian Power has increased in proportion as the Turkish Power has diminished. Russia has even become a great Power in the Mediterranean. In regard to Central Asia, Russia has advanced across most difficult country into over 1,000 miles into the Pamirs, and 800 miles from the Caspian to the Serrakhs. Russia is now within 20 miles of Chitral territory. A fact of great importance to Europe is the greatly increased and improved condition of the Russian Army. The size of the Russian Army is nearly 6,000,000 on a war footing, and nearly 2,000,000 on a peace footing. When hon. Gentlemen reflect that all this enormous power is directed by a single man, who is only controlled to a certain extent by the desires of an ambitious military and political hierarchy—when they realise that this vast Power has pursued a fixed and determined policy for 150 years without the slightest check, they cannot fail to understand what a tremendous power this country may have to face. Russia is a Power which, I venture to say, represents a permanent danger to the liberties of Europe. The subject to which I wish to call the attention of the House to-day is the persistent movement of Russia across Northern Asia towards the Pacific Ocean. The object of this great movement, which has been going on for the past 50 years, cannot be considered as directed towards the acquisition of Siberian territory. The enormous efforts and sacrifices Russia has made to move across the wild, difficult, and frozen tracts of Eastern Siberia can only be regarded as a means
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  to an end. It is perfectly obvious that the end she has in view is the rich and populous districts of Northern China, and especially to establish herself as a naval Power in the Northern Pacific. Just as the movement of Russia, which was carried on for 20 years prior to 1880, and since then across the barren, worthless plains of Central Asia, was directed towards the populous and fertile regions of India, so this great, movement across Northern Asia has been directed across Northern China to the Northern States. We often here have to call the attention of the House, as elsewhere, to the necessary expansion of Russia. That is an argument which would commend itself to the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. It is an easy-going, platitudinarian sort of statement that is based upon no particular reflection or knowledge of what is going on, but which is used on the one side by the Russian Power as an excuse for its aims, and on the other side by British statesmen, who are too neglectful, too ignorant, or too pusillanimous to defend British interests, as an excuse for abandoning their duty. There is no reason for an extension of that territory possessed by Russia over Northern Asia. As I have explained before, these regions in Siberia and North-Eastern Asia could be of very little value; but as a means to an end—as a means of obtaining control of Northern China, of those populous and fertile regions—then these sterile and frozen tracts become important. We now understand the object of the Russian Power. It is nearly 50 years since Russia reached the Pacific; and certainly it is not more than that period since she created Vladivostock. This question of the Russian advance in North-Eastern Asia might not be important if it were not for the fact that, wherever the Russian Power obtains control, all British commerce is practically excluded by ironbound, hostile tariffs. It is perfectly clear that these pledges of "open ports" and "free commerce"—if they are of any value at all, which is rather doubtful when the wording of them is closely considered—would be rendered entirely nugatory as long as the territory of the Hinterland of these ports is kept by Russia or any other Power. Hence the

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  independence and integrity of Chinese territory is essential to the interests of this country, while mere vague pledges of "free ports" or "open ports." and "free commerce," are perfectly useless if Russia occupies and controls those territories. As I have said, the great aim of Russia is to obtain the control of Manchuria, of part of Mongolia, and of the great province of Chi-li, which contains the capital of China. The people of these northern provinces are, it is well known, the most vigorous and the most soldier-like of the whole of the vast population of China—a population which amounts to nearly 400,000,000, and, as the House is well aware, our trade with China amounts to over £10,000,000 a year, exclusive of Hong Kong. Including Hong Kong, British trade with China amounts to over £39,000,000 a year. The population of Manchuria, which is said to be over-run by the Russian forces, amounts to over 8,000,000—some authorities say 20,000,000; the population of Chi-li—the adjoining province—is over 17,000,000; and Chi-li includes Pekin, the capital of China—of course, the centre of government—with its population of 3,000,000. I have asked the right hon. Gentleman who represents the Foreign Office in this House if he could give us any information as to the report that there had been an occupation or invasion of Chinese territory by the Russian forces. The answer has been on all occasions unsatisfactory. We have never yet been told that the Government, as the result of inquiries, have discovered that no such occupation has taken place. There was, for example, a distinct statement sent from several sources that a considerable Russian force, amounting to 6,000 men, had occupied Kirin, the capital of Manchuria. What we want to know from the Government is whether that statement is correct or incorrect; whether there has been any Russian military occupation of Manchuria, or of other portions of Chinese territory. If the right hon. Gentleman can tell us that there has not been this advance, then he will make a most satisfactory statement, and he will go far to relieve the anxiety which is felt. If, on the other hand, he does not know, and if the Russian occupation is proceeding steadily, but surely, from the present border line over Manchuria to Port
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  Arthur, then, of course, all the pledges that we have got are worthless. Russia will break these pledges as she broke her pledges regarding the Black Sea and Batoum, without even taking the trouble to retract them. The population of these districts are a very fine, soldier-like people. They would make splendid soldiers under Russian officers, and I would point out to the House, and to the Government, that if once this territory of North-Eastern Asia is occupied and controlled by Russia, it will be used directly as a feeding-ground for the Russian Army. Russia can always adapt other people who come to it—that is a very striking feature of Russian policy. She conquered the Turks in the last war by means of Poles and Circassians—not entirely, of course, but very largely. Russia is now turning the Turcomans, whose brethren Skobelef massacred with great slaughter 15 years ago, into splendid cavalry, to be used against India. I firmly believe she will convert the people of Northern China into a first-class infantry force. And when once Russia has control of these enormous fighting forces, derived from the country she is now about to absorb, then I wish to point out to the House all the Russian pledges and Chinese pledges with regard to Central China, will be absolutely valueless, because Russia will have the control of a military force which will enable her to over-run practically the whole of Chinese territory. Therefore, I submit the territorial independence of China is of the utmost importance. Sir, the key to the military and commercial future of Northern China is the Trans-Siberian Railway. At the present moment this country, if allied with Japan, holds all the cards in its hand. The British Government have the power, if they only have the resolve and courage to use it, to do exactly as they please with Northern China, in alliance, of course, with Japan. By sea, the English and Japanese fleets are absolute masters of the position. By land, with the aid of the Japanese Army, we are equally masters of the position. But the moment that great Trans-Siberian railway is completed, then the whole position will be changed. Then Russia, will be master of the position by land—unless we have erected permanent and stable barriers against Russia beforehand—for she will then be able to pour

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  such an enormous armed force into Northern China that nothing that we or Japan could put there could possibly compote with it. This Trans-Siberian railway is a remarkable work. I do not know what its total length is, but it is thousands of miles.
  AN HON. MEMBER: Four thousand seven hundred.
  *SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: I have no doubt that is right, because my hon. Friend has a special knowledge of this question; but taking it from Omsk on the western side of Siberia as a starting point, it extends over 3,600 miles at least to Vladivostock, and its completion will mark the turning point in the history of Central Asia. I should be glad if the Under Secretary of State will inform the House whether the Cassini Treaty is in force, and whether Russia has the right to take her railway across Chinese territory, through Nerthschinsk by Tsilsihar to Kirin, thus making the journey 750 miles instead of over 1,500, and saving Russian troops and commerce quite half the distance they would otherwise have to travel. I should like to know whether that Cassini Treaty is a document that is in force, and whether China has given Russia permission to make this short cut across Chinese territory, because it is perfectly plain that if it is true, Russia is bound to get the control of the whole of this enormous Chinese territory. Well, Sir, it is worthy of note in connection with this Chinese question that our difficulties in North-Eastern Asia are due to the change of our policy in 1893, when the right hon. Gentleman opposite and his Party were responsible for the Government of this country. Indeed, all the present difficulties in which we are involved, not only in North-Eastern China, but everywhere else, are due to the change which took place in 1893 in the foreign policy of this country. Sir, it must have occurred to everyone that, during the past five years—since 1893—this country has been steadily pushed down-hill in many parts of Africa, in Asia, and in other quarters of the globe. There is not a single case that I know of in which this country has been able to make effective response to foreign encroachment or aggression. I need only mention Africa — West, Central,
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  East, and South—Madagascar, Siam, Tunis, the North-Western Frontier of India, China—North and South—the Ottoman Empire, and the Mediterranean. Everywhere there has been British retreat and British repulse. Why is this? It is not the result of accident. There are two reasons for it. In the first place, Sir, the deliberate attack, or encroachment, I would say, which has been made upon British interests by the great Russo-French combination, which has been, and is being, felt everywhere; and, in the second place, the injurious, the insane, and the most mischievous change of policy which took place in 1893. All this is the result of the injurious and most mischievous change in our policy, which took place in 1893, when this country began alienating its ancient allies, which has left it in a state of practical isolation ever since. It is the fact that ever since 1893 we have not had a single ally in either Eastern or Western Europe, or elsewhere, that is necessary to our foreign policy, and, until that great mistake is retrieved, until we return to the ancient alliances of this country, which are based, not on sentimental imagination and popular outcry, but upon mutual and common interests, there is no hope that this country will succeed. We have heard of the splendid isolation of England, but England cannot, against an armed Europe, stand alone; England, with the richest and most coveted possessions in the world, must be a, prey to the ambition of other nations. I think since 1893 this country has been unsupported, because of its sentimental policy in the Near East. That policy was commenced when the Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House were responsible for the Government of the country, and when they, with France and Russia, tried to coerce the Ottoman Empire. I do not wish to go into that matter now, but it can all be traced from that attempted alliance with Russia and France. The right hon. Gentleman smiles when I mention this, but he cannot for a moment deny that he endeavoured to set up an alliance with France and Russia, to coerce the Ottoman Empire, and that attempted alliance has been going on ever since, but has not shown any satisfactory results. The right hon. Gentleman was also responsible for the

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  alienation of Japan in 1893–94. Now this bears intimately upon the question which I now bring before the House: the other is the general question. I only want to recall to the attention of the House the fact that it is the isolation of this country which has caused the helplessness of both Governments in dealing with so many foreign Governments. But when I come to the alienation of Japan, I look to the policy that has led directly to our troubles in North-Eastern Asia. What happened in 1894? The Japanese Power, by their skill and courage, had established themselves supreme in Corea and Port Arthur, where they were an effective bulwark against Russia's encroachments southward. Russia could not advance southward, if the Japanese retained the positions which they had, then, the control of. I consider the rise of the Japanese power in the East has been very providential for this country. I do not know what our position would have been now if we had to face a combination of Russia and France, and possibly of Germany as well, in the Far East. There is a very great and strong power growing up in Japan, and by the help of Japan alone can we retain our position in the Northern Pacific. By their help alone can we keep Russia out of China. It might have been done five years ago, but for the shortsightedness and pusillanimity of the hon. Gentlemen who then held the reins of Government; they deliberately abandoned Japan to Russia and France. They need not have gone to war; there was no question of war. The British fleet could sweep the Russians from the sea then as it could do now. It was only for them to say that Japan must be left free in her action, and they would have held their hands. The result of our policy produced great dissatisfaction in Japan, and it gave Russia the opportunity she had been seeking and has been using ever since. What has been the result of driving Japan out of Corea? Corea is now under Russian control, Manchuria has been in danger of being overrun, and Port Arthur is in Russian hands. These are the results of the weakness of the policy which was followed by the Government of 1893. Now, the present Government is confronted with a similar crisis once again. They have
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  the cards in their hands if they chose to play them. By using the power of Japan, they can, if they choose, control the whole Chinese question and the Northern Pacific. It remains to be seen whether they will. There is only one satisfactory policy for this country, and that is to demand the territorial integrity of China. No pledge will be of any value if once the Russians gain control of Chinese territory. Russia would not dream of resisting such a policy if it was categorically and clearly pressed by the British Government. Now I wish to say a few words with regard to the action of Germany in China. I take a very different view of the occupation of Kiaou-Chau by the German forces to that which is taken by people generally. I think it was a brilliant stroke of policy on the part of the German Government, with a double object in view. The first object undoubtedly was to enhance the value of German trade. Germany, it may be noted, has kept in this matter strictly within the bounds of legality, because they secured their hold on Kiaou-Chau by a Treaty with the Chinese Government. They have not taken possession of the country, but taken a, long lease of it. But Germany had a great double object in view. Of course she wanted to benefit German commerce, but you see where the brilliancy of this stroke on the part of the Emperor is observable. The object was to impress upon us the Russian aims and to raise British aims in that direction. It is to our advantage, in the event of Russia moving southward, that we should have Germany at Kiaou-Chau. I do not suppose that the views of the German Sovereign will be very welcome in this House or in the country, but I think everyone will acknowledge that he has been as successful in his foreign policy in the last ten years as the British Government has been unsuccessful. It is a mistake to believe that this great ruler is hostile to this country. I believe he has seen the folly of the British policy of the last five years. I believe there was great excitement in Germany when there was a talk of a Russo-English alliance, and I believe Germany has tried to drive England out of that alliance in England's own interests. The German Emperor, by saving Turkey, as he undoubtedly did in 1896, saved India for England, because

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  if Turkey had fallen under the control of Russia, and the splendid fighting material of the country had come under the command of the Czar, we could not possibly hope to hold India against a Russian attack. I hold we cannot resecure our proper position, our strong and invincible position, among the nations of the world which we held in 1878, and from 1886 to 1892, until we return to the natural alliance with Germany. We have common enemies, no one in Europe will accuse England and Germany of being disturbing elements. It is very true we are great commercial rivals, but our position in regard to that will not be advantaged by making an enemy of Germany, but rather by making friends with her. With the old understanding which existed between this country and Germany, established by Lord Beaconsfield at Berlin in 1878, we were able to have our own way in the Councils of Europe. From that year to 1885 confusion was worse confounded by the policy adopted by the then Government. Again the German alliance was established by Lord Salisbury in 1886, and from that year up to 1892 we had a period of peace and contentment at home and abroad. In 1893 we adopted this policy of mad sentimentality, which has alienated the Empire from every nation, and we have had nothing but riot and disaster. I hope the British Government is not still hungering for the fleshpots of a Russian and French Alliance, for, of all fantastic chimeras, an alliance with Russia and France is the worst. That is the chimera which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouthshire put before the House the first day of this Session. There are great defects in tahe way of such an alliance which it is hardly necessary to mention. As to France, there are the questions of West Africa, Madagascar, Tunis, Siam, Southern China, Mediterranean, Abyssinia, and Upper Nile to disturb the equipoise of an alliance with them. As to Russia, there is Constantinople, the Straits, Mediterranean, Manchuria, Korea, Northern Pacific, Pamirs, and the North-West Frontier of India, Abyssinia, Persia, and Herat. At all these points we are being pushed down the hill by these two Powers, which will show how absurd the chimera of an alliance with those countries will be. And I say that
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  the attempt to base British foreign policy on an alliance with Russia and France is totally illusory and injurious. There are signs of a reversionary character in the recent statement of the right hon. Gentleman as to what we believe to be the policy of the present Government. We are told that Russia has given certain pledges. The language of those pledges is extremely vague, and we should like to see those pledges in a form so definite that they could not be shirked or avoided. Now I will just read one sentence of the pledge shown to the right hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary—
  "Any such port would be open to the ships of all the Great Powers, like other ports on the Chinese mainland. It would be open to the commerce of all the world, and England, whose trade interests are so important in those regions, would share the advantage."
  Now, there is nothing in that pledge that I can see saying that the commerce of this country shall be placed upon an equal advantage with that of Russia, nor did I understand the Prime Minister when he said "a free port is very much better than a Treaty port." I should have thought that a Treaty port, as to which foreign Powers bound themselves by solemn pledges to maintain as an open port, would be better. Of a free port we have an unfortunate precedent, Batoum was to be a free port, but the pledge was broken directly. There was also considerable umbrage given as to the German Government and Kiaou-Chau, which we should be glad to see cleared up. I said just now there are some good signs, which we welcome, and should like to see approved and made more clear. There is the Anglo-German Loan, which is not Governmental, but which, I believe, the Government has had great influence in bringing about, but that is a mere makeshift if Russia is allowed to occupy Northern China. If Russia occupies the Hinterland it will greatly affect the position in the Nankeen Valley and the centre of China. I venture, in conclusion, to say the maintenance of the territorial integrity of China is essential for British commerce, and I add, as a corollary, that the territorial integrity of China can only be secured by an alliance

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  with Japan and an understanding with the German Power. I beg to move—
  "That it is of vital importance for British commerce and influence that the Independence of Chinese Territory should be maintained."
  *MR. T. W. GIBSON BOWLES: In seconding the propositions contained in this Resolution I cannot go so far as to adopt the whole of the expressions the hon. Gentleman the Member for Sheffield has used in his speech. If it is important to maintain the integrity of China against one Power, it must be equally important to maintain it against another. Undoubtedly China is the most important of all the subjects that were not mentioned in the Queen's Speech, and naturally there was every justification for bringing it forward at this stage. Before Parliament met the papers were full of information of an extremely satisfactory character to the British people, with regard to what was to take place between China and England. When Parliament met, explanations were given by Lord Salisbury in another place, which, perhaps, were not quite so satisfactory, but which still enabled us to hope things would come round to our satisfaction. But I feel, and I think everybody feels the same, that things are in a much less satisfactory condition now than they were at the date Parliament met. Let us not be told now that negotiations are proceeding, and that the Foreign Office must shroud itself in mystery and silence. I fear the Foreign Office has long been disposed to regard China as a low, vulgar place, connected with trade a long way off, having no Court or active amusements for the young gentlemen who are sent out there as Attachés. But from the point of view of commerce, there is no country so important to us as China. When I say this, I do not except India, and I do not even even regard Africa. In Africa there is this tremendous bar to British commerce, that the people do not wear clothes, and where the people do not wear clothes, there is very little you can sell them. In Africa you have to make your market, but in China it is already made. In that country there
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  are 400,000,000 inhabitants, or one-third of the inhabitants of the whole world. There is an ancient civilisation, a most complete system of education, and the population to a man are born traders. In addition to that, the taxes of the ports are light, and the taxation of the Chinaman himself is perhaps the lowest in the world, amounting only to 2s. a head. I say that in China you have a population ready and willing to take those manufactures which we find it so difficult to dispose of in other parts of the world. I say, seeing the way the markets have been closed to us in all other parts of the world, the only hope we have in this country for the expansion of our commerce is in China, now being attacked by the Powers. The trade of China is already £53,000,000. I take the latest figures I have—those of 1895—and of this trade £35,000,000 is conducted by Great Britain. It is not one-tenth of what could be, should be, or will be, carried on with China, if only her independence is maintained, and adequate pressure is put upon the Chinese to remove those barriers which alone impede the commerce of to-day. I would point out that in this the interest of India is to be considered. Her manufactures will also find a ready market in China, and that the future of Australia is not unconnected with the development of China. There were hopes up to the time of the China and Japan war—there was every hope that China was awakening from her exclusive ideas for the benefit of commerce. There are, I believe, 200 miles of railway in China. It is not a great length, but it is very long considering that the last railway in China was broken up and destroyed, after being in use some years. There was every hope for China in 1894 and 1895, when, taking advantage of the war, Russia and France came forward to China as her friends, and they acted as her friends, they saved her territory, and undertook to find her money; whether they found it, is another matter, but they acted as the friends of China, but Russia was more especially her friend. The result of that was the Tientsin Convention, or, if that be denied, an arrangement to that effect. We have seen ever since that that which was supported in the Tientsin Convention has been carried out, and Russia has so hypnotised China, and

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  obtained such an influence that she is predominant and autocratic at the Court of Pekin. This is no surprise. We have had it all told to us by, perhaps, the greatest authority on all foreign affairs, who has ever been known to write a book upon them. I allude to the right hon. the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs. He wrote a book entitled "Problems of the Far East," and, I may say that book was finally revised by the right hon. Gentleman whilst still Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs in 1895, and it has therefore all the authority of official omniscience and private perspicacity. What he said on the point I have just alluded to is this—
  "Russia does not render this assistance from any superfluity of unselfishness, or for no end. She has her price, and she will receive her reward. That reward will involve still further enfeeblement of the victim, for whose inheritance she is waiting, and to whose invalid gasps she prescribes with tender hand the dose that imparts a transient spasm of vitality, to be followed presently by an even more profound collapse."
  That traces the matter indeed. The unfortunate victim, ill unto the throes of death, and the faithless doctor, waiting for his legacy, coldly administering the dose of poison which will bring home to him the inheritance for which he is waiting. But that is the method. It is the mere consequence of the assistance given. I could read many short passages from this admirable work, the next of which shows what the situation of Russia is there—
  "The foreign policy of China chiefly concerns Englishmen in its relation to St. Petersburg and to Downing Street."
  This comes from Downing Street!—
  "The successive advances made by Russia—largely at China's own expense—have taught her to regard that Power as her real enemy, whom, however, she fears far more than abhors. It is Russia who threatens her frontiers in Chinese Turkestan and on the Pamirs; Russia who is always nibbling in scientific disguise at Thibet; Russia who has designs in Manchuria; Russia whose shadow overhangs Corea; Russia who is building a great transcontinental railway, that will enable her to pour troops into China at any point along 3,500 miles of contiguous border.
  The House might really doubt whether this is a voice from Sheffield or a voice from the Foreign Office. But it is a
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  very serious assertion, made by a serious personage, of the actual character that Russia has towards China. I have one more extract to read, perhaps the best of all, which shows how England ought to regard the proceedings of this faithless physician—
  "A Russian port and fleet, for instance, in the Gulf of Pechili, would in time of war constitute as formidable a danger to British shipping in the Yellow Sea as they would do to the metropolitan province and the capital of China. Permanent Russian squadrons at Port Lazareff and Tusan would convert her into the greatest naval Power of the Pacific. The balance of power in the Far East would be seriously jeopardised, if not absolutely overturned, by such a development, and England is prohibited, alike by her Imperial objects and her commercial needs, from lending her sanction to any such issue."
  Those are the words of the British Foreign Office, as embodied by my right hon. Friend who sits below me. Now mark, a Russian port and fleet in the Gulf of Pechili. Port Arthur bounds the Gulf of Pechili on the north, and occupies a most commanding position. Yet the right hon. Gentleman tells us that would constitute a formidable danger to British shipping in the Yellow Sea. "Permanent Russian squadrons at Port Lazareff and Tusan"—they are on the outer side of Korea—but Port Arthur, where Russia actually is, and, so far as we can tell, is going to permanently remain, is on the inner side of the peninsula, and is in a much stronger position than the other two. But the hon. Gentleman says—
  "Permanent Russian squadrons at Port Lazareff and Tusan would convert her into the greatest naval Power in the Pacific."
  That must not be taken quite seriously; that is where the poet shows himself, or rather, I would call it, poetic licence. No number of ports in Korea, including Port Arthur, could convert Russia into the greatest naval Power; that part must always belong to England, and when it ceases to belong to her she will give up her interests in India and China, and elsewhere. But here the matter is put with a degree of candour and bluntness—I had almost said with brutality—entirely unusual in any official at all, but most unusual with an official connected with the Foreign Office. From this there is the moral to draw, that in October, 1895, the

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  Government was absolutely as fully aware of the danger of Russian action in China as they now are. In October, 1895, Her Majesty's Government fully agreed with my hon. Friend the Member for the Ecclesall Division of Sheffield. Whether they so agree now, and are prepared to take such steps to protect China from advances so directly injurious, we shall learn in the course of the afternoon. Under the hypnotic influence, almost, one might say, under the dominion of Russia, as she is, it becomes necessary for the Government to consider what steps they should take to ensure for her the position she is entitled to hold. And here, I think, the Under Secretary is a little unfortunate, because, after all, the object of the Government must be to conciliate China, but the right hon. Gentleman set about it in a very curious way. He wrote a letter to the papers to show that China was an effete and rotten Power. Now that is not the way, if you wish to obtain facilities to approach China. I think it is an unfortunate expression to make use of towards one's friends. In fact, I think the right hon. Gentleman has not an adequate idea of his own importance when he uses these expressions, because words which are harmless in others are naturally calculated to have a serious effect when coming from him. Now I come to the mere active aggression of Russia and Germany; and I am bound to say that, so far as we know, Russia has been absolutely correct. Russia has sent men-of-war to Port Arthur. She might have sent them to Portsmouth. So far as we know, there is no intention on the part of Russia permanently to occupy Port Arthur, or to seize any territory that surrounds that port. So far as we know, the conduct of Russia, with regard to Port Arthur, has been absolutely correct. But in the case of Germany it is black piracy which the hon. Gentleman below me so much admires. Germany seized Kiaou-Chou with, I venture to say, the slenderest excuse which was ever put forward by any nation for such an act. In my opinion, so far from that act being calculated to be a cheek to Russia, it was done in concert with Russia, Germany using herself as the jackal of Russia. I venture to say that it will be found that the foreign Powers are working together, in the same sense the right hon. Gentleman has indicated.
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  Russia herself is working for her own interests, and against British interests and Chinese interests, in that part of the world. But there is a third party. While Russia and Germany are active, France was preparing to take action. The attitude of the three Powers, the declarations in the French Chamber, and the actual acts on the part of one Power and another undoubtedly raised feelings of great apprehension in this country. Suddenly the apprehensions were quieted by that most remarkable telegram in the Time, of the 17th January. We were told in that telegram that England had agreed to make a loan to China, to enable her to clear off the remainder of the Japanese indemnity, which it was extremely important should be paid off by the end of 1898, inasmuch as, if it is paid by that date a large portion will be wiped off. We were told that we must make a loan to China, and the importance of that was this—not that there was any financial advantage to be gained by making the loan, but that undoubtedly England making, as she would have done, the loan under these circumstances, and under the favourable conditions set forth, would have obtained thereby very considerable influence in the Councils of the Court of Pekin, and would have been able to exercise that influence in the way of opening traffic and communications and securing the commerce of China, not for herself alone, but for the enjoyment of the whole of the nations of the world. That would have been a great advantage to England and to the world. It was felt to be a great advantage, but there were other conditions attaching to it. One was that two seaports were to be opened—Talien Wan and Nan-ning. When I saw that announcement, with regard to those ports, I felt that these were great points over which a difficulty would arise. Talien Wan is close to Port Arthur; it is in the same peninsula up in the north-east. But why should England ask for Talien Wan? It was not, and could not have been, for the sake of trade. The whole peninsula has no trade. But supposing it was for trade. There is already a Treaty port in the peninsula. Talien Wan, therefore, could hardly be supposed to be claimed as a trade situation, inasmuch as there was already a Treaty port there, and the trade of the whole peninsula was small.

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  The demand for the opening of Talien Wan as a Treaty port had one aspect. It was a direct challenge to Russia, that her aspirations and desires for annexing the peninsula were to be resisted. The same with Nan-ning on the West River. As has been said by M. Decrais in the French Chamber, France will resist the opening of Nan-ning, as Russia resists the opening of Talien Wan. I looked upon these two challenges with the greatest possible interest, and not without a great deal of anxiety. Now, what was the result? One challenge we know was taken up. Russia displayed her hostility at once to our demand for Talien Wan, and we gave it up. Lord Salisbury explained that the place was of no importance as regards trade, which was probably a fact. I can only give the explanation I have already suggested, that it was a sort of attempt to force the Russian hand and discover what they meant; and by Russia's refusal we discovered that they meant to stay. The demand for Talien Wan was given up; we retired from Talien Wan. The same with Nan-ning. We do not know what negotiations have taken place with France. What we do know is that it has dropped out of the English programme. This was a feeler for France, just as the case of Talien-Wan was a feeler for Russia. Here, too, England was warned off the territory the French desired to have influence in. That telegram of the 17th January was received with the greatest possible satisfaction by the people of England, and that satisfaction was more than increased when on the very day of the telegram the Chancellor of the Exchequer, speaking in the country, explained that what Her Majesty's Government meant to have was an open door in China for English trade. He said that he desired to speak plainly, and, speaking plainly, he said that England would keep open that door at the cost of war, or, as he has since explained, "at the risk of war." We know now that the Chancellor had not read his Times that day, and he did not know of that telegram. It was, of course, assumed that a Government declaration of that sort, made by so prominent a Member of the Cabinet as the Chancellor of the Exchequer, must have been made after discussion in the Cabinet and with
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  the assent of the Prime Minister; otherwise it would be difficult to suppose that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should go down to the country and make what was a contingent declaration of war. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was followed by the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, who explained that we were entitled to, and meant to have, compensating advantages equivalent to those given in China to other people. Even the Attorney General at Ventnor is reported—although I doubt it—to have used unusually bellicose language for a man of the law. He said he would rather die suddenly in a fight for China over this matter than starve slowly to death through being prevented from trading with China. At least, that was the effect of the report, but I very much doubt whether the report was absolutely correct. The effect of all this bold language was that the English people were satisfied that some satisfactory arrangement had been concluded with China, and would, if necessary, be defended and maintained by force of arms. Great was the disappointment when, after the meeting of Parliament, the exact situation of affairs was explained—that Talien Wan would not be open as a free port, but that it did not matter, because there was no trade there; and Nan-ning was given the go-by in absolute silence. We were told by the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary that England had, at the request of China, offered a loan and accepted certain concessions, but that it was not considered essential, and so was withdrawn. What was essential? Was any part of the concessions essential? What do the concessions amount to? If all that was essential had been accepted by China, why is it that the loan fell through? I seek in vain for an answer to these questions. I repeat, if it be that China has accepted all the essential conditions, and has only rejected those which were not essential, why is it that the loan has fallen through? It is because Russia has put her veto upon it. My right hon. Friend near me suggests that the Times disclosed the matter prematurely. Is it not clear that the disclosures of the Times came from a Russian source? The Times suggested that it came from the Chinese Council.

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  But it was to the advantage of Russia to prevent that loan being made, and the publication of that telegram was a way to prevent it being made. Indeed, it has prevented it being made It has been suggested that though we have not got concessions from China, still we have got concessions from other Powers—from Russia and from Germany. We are told that Russia has given written assurances, which my hon. Friend below me characterised as extremely vague, that any port she is likely to employ for commerce should be a free port. We are told that Germany has given similar assurances. These are written assurances. The Berlin Treaty was a written assurance. By the Berlin Treaty Russia gave an assurance that she would make Batoum a free port; and the contemptuous abrogation of that Treaty was the subject of one of the most eloquent passages, written by Lord Rosebery in 1886 that a Minister for Foreign Affairs has ever penned in this country. That shows the value of Russian assurances. I do not know that German assurances are worth much more. There was, for instance, a Treaty of Prague, which gave certain guarantees to the inhabitants of the Danish Duchy, but from the day the Treaty of Prague was signed down to the present time that article had never been given effect to. As regards France the story of Madagascar is conclusive against accepting any written assurances from that country. It has been said that Russia has no intention of initiating policy towards China. What was the policy? In Madagascar France has absolutely trampled upon our rights. They are levying duties which Lord Rosebery says they have no right to levy, and they pay no attention to our remonstrances. The right hon. Gentlemen says we cannot go to war with France on account of that, because the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean would not support him if we did. I am sorry to tax the patience of the House, but the fact is we find ourselves in this situation: that the Power which annexed Madagascar and Tonkin, which is prepared to annex Nan-ning—at any rate, is prepared to oppose the opening of Nan-ning; on the West River, as a free port—that the Power which has annexed Alsace-Lorraine and
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  Heligoland and Kiaou-Chau, with the approval of my hon. Friend—
  *SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: It has not annexed them.
  *MR. GIRSON BOWLES: That Power has occupied Kiaon-Chan under circumstances involving the assumption of sovereignty over the port and the adjacent land. And, finally, there is the Power that has conquered Tartary and has occupied Port Arthur. Undoubtedly at this moment Russia is absolutely predominant in Chinese councils. She has three military attachés there at three different ports, with power to train the Chinese troops, and she has the most absolute domination over the Chinese Councils at the Tsung-li-Yamen, and unless something is done soon it will be absolutely impossible to resist the execution of anything that Russia wishes to be done throughout the length and breadth of China. Now, sir, this shows what we have lost. We might have held that position. We might even have regained it when we partly lost some of that position had we been able to carry through the work, but, as it is to be carried our there now, England has no influence whatever. This loan is initiated and carried through by the private firms of Shanghai and Hong-Kong, assisted by a certain number of Germans, and it is a loan which will give to this country no influence whatever in the Councils of China. Now, Sir, I have endeavoured to point our the importance to England of having free access to china for the purpose of trade and I am bound to say that as regards the shipping trade, speaking of the shipping trade as distinguished from the manufacturing trade, this action of Russia and Germany does not altogether hurt us. It is not so damaging as it seems when you come to look at it. If Russia does firmly establish herself at Port Arthur, and if Germany does the like at Kiaou Chau, they will undoubtedly apply to these ports their own particularly exclusive selfish system of trade. The result of this will be that primâ facie these ports will be no more able to compete with Hong-Kong and Shanghai, than Archangel is able to compete with Liverpool and London. As far

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  as the trade is concerned, the annexation of these ports, if the Russian and German system is applied, will only result in the ports having but little trade, and the trade of China will continue to flow on through its accustomed channels. But as my hon. Friend has most judiciously pointed out, there is the land behind the ports, and if the occupation of the ports is to be extended to what is called the Hinterland—although why we cannot call it the "interior" I do not know—it will be far more galling, far more oppressive, and far more destructive to trade than even the Chinese system, which has now so constantly for many years strangled the trade of China. I think our shipping will still find its access to Shanghai and Hong-Kong, and I do not think that any of it will get to Port Arthur or Kiaou-Chau. The great injury that will be inflicted upon our trade will only be so far as the interior behind these ports, is concerned. But in the last resort—let the House never forget this—that England is, and always must be, when it comes to force, the strongest power on the Chinese coast. Yes, she is now. I do not count battleships when I say that. I want to know how many rounds of ammunition they carry, and how much coal they can carry, and how far they can steam, before I can compare one battleship with another, and know that in all these respects we have an enormous advantage in our battleships. There is not a German ship there that can carry more than 3,000 miles in her inside. They have got to coal four times before she can reach Kiaou-Chau, and every place that she can possibly coal at is in the possession of this country. Again, we can reinforce our Chinese fleet from the Pacific, Indian and Australian seas, before cither German or Russian ships can get half-way. When we bear in mind that every English battleship carries twice or three times as much ammunition and coal as an ordinary battlehip of the same class, we can well understand that we are by far the strongest Navy in that part of the world. I am not in the least afraid of the competition with which the right hon. Gentleman threatens me with regard to the Siberian Railway. Railways are of no use for carrying large bodies of men. You have to get your railway
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  stock backwards and forwards. You are hemmed in by such conditions that it is only the very smallest number of men you can carry in a given time by a railway, and that you can treat with some contempt, but with as many ships as the ocean can bear you can carry 10 times the troops and 20 times the stores as you can by a railway. Therefore I am not a bit afraid of the competition of the Siberian Railway. There is only one road, and that road is the seas, and I say we shall always be able to send more men in less time to that part of the world than any other country. But, Sir, we have been periodically reminded in connection with this matter—and it is desirable also that we should not forget it with regard to another matter, namely, Africa—that we cannot conduct a war with a European Power in a far-distant country without having the fear of a war in Europe continually before us; and that is an essential consideration which must not be neglected. If you are going to offend Russia in the Far East, it means that eventually you will have to face the possibility of a war in Europe with Russia; and here it is I believe that is to be found the secret of our diplomatic weakness for so many years past. It lies in this: that every Minister when he is confronted with the possibility of having to go to war with a European Power in some distant place, immediately also becomes confronted with the fact that with a European Power he can scarcely do anything by way of coercion. Our defensive powers are, no doubt, sufficient to keep these islands from invasion, but what offensive power can we use towards our enemy? You will find that a Minister becomes aware that, having given up, by the Declaration of Paris, the principle for which we so long contended, by means of which we so long vanquished the whole of Europe, having parted with the power of coercing the enemy by reason of the possible rise of the price of things in this country, and having parted with the power of acting with any European nation at sea, which is the only place where we can act at all, that recollection of our impotence to coerce constantly occurs to every Minister when he asks himself, What can be done if we go to war? That consideration has been present

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  in the minds of Ministers in this Chinese affair also, and I can only hope that some day this House will be invited to reconsider that subject and get rid of the paper which has so weakened the policy of this country in the past, and which is likely to further weaken it in the future. With regard to China this country has no selfish aim. It is prepared to compete with the whole world, but what we do ask is, the maintenance of China as an independent Power, and her protection against these aggressive countries which would annex her only in order to close her. Sir, if once Germany Russia, and France take possession of portions of China—if the territory of China is ever divided between these three countries—a system far more exclusive than any Chinese system ever was will be imposed, and imposed mainly against the commerce of this country. In this conviction, and it is a conviction that I feel most strongly, I have no hesitation in giving my support to the Motion of my hon. Friend.
  *SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: I have been asking myself for the last two hours what is the object of the speeches to which we have listened, and how far they and the Resolution before the House will contribute towards the solution of a question which everyone admits is one of supreme importance in the interests of this country. The mover and seconder of this Motion, though they promote the same cause, contradict each other at almost every point. There are two great potentates in Europe who will have occasion to rejoice to-morrow. The Emperor of Germany is patronised by the member for Sheffield. He is denounced by the Member for King's Lynn. The Member for King's Lynn is impartial in his hostility to both the great Powers, he rebukes the Member for Sheffield for the eulogies he has passed on the Emperor of Germany, and he dissociates himself to a great degree from the censure the hon. Member has passed on the Emperor of Russia. I venture to hold the opinion, in spite of these two hon. Members, that the great interest of England is that we should be on friendly terms with both Russia and Germany in the East and in every part of the world.
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  The speech of the Member for Sheffield is of that kind we are quite accustomed to. He has long laboured under a disorder which is common in this country, called "Russophobia," from which he has never recovered, though I am glad to say that it has worn itself out a great deal in the public opinion of this country. No one has spoken more strongly, more responsibly, in that sense than the present Prime Minister of England. I think it is only two years ago that he stated that he could see no ground upon which England should regard Russia as its enemy. What is the charge which is now made against Russia? I venture to say that such speeches as we have listened to are doing, and will do, infinite mischief to this country throughout the world. What is the sort of attack that is made upon Russia by the Member for Sheffield? He says, "Russia is making a movement in the East of Asia." So she is. She is making a great railway through her own territory—and that is a thing which is necessarily hostile to England.
  SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: I said nothing of the kind. I said where Russia was attacking English interests was in obtaining control in Northern China.
  *SIR W. HARCOURT: Yes; but what evidence is there of that, excepting that she is making a railway through Siberia? I should like to know what would have been said if Russia had complained of England making the Canadian Pacific Railway through her own territory? He says, Russia would never have made a railway through such wild and desolate territory excepting for some hostile intention; but I do not doubt but what there is as wild and desolate territory in the Hudson Bay as any in Siberia, and yet it is not alleged that we had any hostile intention in making the Canadian Pacific Railway. Then the hon. Member goes on to talk about thee extension of Russia in that direction, and he denounced me upon that subject. But really, if that is a fault, I am not alone responsible for it. I think the First Lord of the Treasury said not long ago, and said quite truly, that it is the most natural thing in the world that

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  Russia should desire an ice-free port upon the Pacific. Why in the world is she to be treated as an enemy of Great Britain because she desires an ice-free port?
  SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: It is through Chinese territory.
  *SIR W. HARCOURT: If China chooses upon terms which are fair to other countries, to give Russia access to an ice-free port, why should not she? Then the hon. Member says that all the misery we have endured is because we have no allies in Europe. No allies in Europe! We who are always acting in the Concert of Europe! Why, we have a universal ally; and yet the hon. Member for Sheffield can say that we have no allies. The great evil which has befallen Europe is that crime which he tells us was originated by the last Government, of allying ourselves with France and Russia. Yes; the hon. Member addressed himself upon that subject directly to me. He said that I had always stated that in Eastern affairs alliance with France and Russia was a natural alliance, and the only efficient alliance; that is quite true, and I have always pointed out that that was the alliance by which Canning secured the emancipation of Greece, and at this moment, when the Member for Sheffield is declaring that an alliance with France and Russia is a fatal policy for England, this week or next a loan issued by England, France, and Russia will be effected by the existing Administration. That is a commentary upon the Member for Sheffield's denunciation of the alliance between England, France, and Russia. What is the object of the loan? It is to deliver Thessaly from the Turk; but that is not what the hon. Member for Sheffield desires. Why, he was himself an invader of Thessaly! Then there is another great crime that the late Government committed. They did not join Japan. To do what? To support Japan in making war upon China. Yes, he says, to make war with Russia. But at that time Japan had occupied Port Arthur. Of course, the enemy was Japan. In my opinion that was a perfectly wise course which was adopted. We desired not to be the enemies of Japan, nor the
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  enemies of China, and even when we were exhorted to do so the late Government declined to be a party to coerce Japan, and at this very moment, I venture to say, ever since that time, Japan has looked upon Great Britain as her friend. If you want a closer alliance with Japan it is perfectly open to Her Majesty's Government to enter into one. We left it perfectly free to them. We declined to make ourselves partisans in that contest between Japan and China. The Member for Sheffield says that Germany is not hostile to England. I hope and believe that to be the case, but the hon. Member charges the late Government with having caused hostility between Germany and England.
  SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: Hostile feelings.
  *SIR W. HARCOURT: If there was hostile feeling, there would be a hostile policy, and if a hostile feeling has been loudly expressed in Germany, it has been, I think, rather in the time of the present Government than of their predecessors. And if the events connected with the raid in South Africa sufficiently prove that there never was such a hostile policy I should like to know whether the language of the hon. Member does not lead to a hostile feeling towards Russia; and whether that is advantageous to this country. In my opinion, Lord Salisbury was quite right when he said that the great hope of a settlement, whether in the near East or the far East, is in a good understanding between England and Russia. I believe that to be a wise and sound policy, and Lord Salisbury has perceived that the attempt to deal with the Eastern Question in a spirit of jealousy, hatred, and hostility, such as the hon. Member for Sheffield has expressed to-night towards Russia, is a policy which has been tried for half a century and has failed. It is only by acting in a friendly spirit with great Powers like Russia, France, and Germany, whether it be in the near East or in the far East, that you can really advance the true interests of this country. But the extraordinary thing in these alliances, as they present themselves to the mind of the hon. Member for Sheffield, is that he has but one test of that

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  alliance which England ought to seek, and that is an alliance which is founded upon a love of Turkey. Why is it that, to-day, he says the alliance ought to be between England and Germany, and with Germany alone? Why, it is because, as he pointed out, that Germany has come to the rescue of the Moslem populations throughout the world. That is the ground on which he vouchsafed his patronage to the Emperor of Germany. We cannot accept that as a test of the policy to be pursued. We are not enamoured of the Power which has the favour of the hon. Member. Tinning to the Member for King's Lynn, he also has got his favourite—what shall I call it—predominant idea, and that predominant idea is to denounce the Declaration of Paris, and the freedom of the neutral flag. That comes up always in his speeches upon the condition of Europe.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon; I believe this is the first occasion on which I have mentioned it in the House.
  *SIR W. HARCOURT: Well, Sir, I confess that astonishes me quite as much as it would do to hear from the President of the Local Government Board that it was the first time he had ever alluded to bimetallism. But I pass that by. I will regard it as a solitary lapse on the part of the hon. Member. But while I confess that I deplore and deprecate such language as has been used by the honourable Member for Sheffield, and the Members who supported him, towards Russia and Germany, I do ask the Government—and it is for that reason that I have risen—that they will give some clear statement upon this matter, which will prevent mischief being done by such speeches as those we have listened to, and which will set at rest the public mind. I have criticised the Government—and it is the only criticism that I have to pass upon them in this matter—because when this question began they allowed scares to prevail in the public mind. They allowed, I may almost say they encouraged, an alarm for which there was no foundation at all. Well, of course, we know very well the state of mind of the man who maketh and loveth a scare. The probability is that it answers his purpose, but that should not be the position of a responsible
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  Government. They ought to come forward, when they know there is no danger and no mischief, and tell the English people that that is the fact. What I criticise and complain of is this, that for some weeks all the newspapers and many right hon. Gentlemen in their speeches, have been calling upon the Government to do something to avert the infinite mischief that was going to befall British trade in consequence of the action of Russia and Germany in China. As soon as Parliament met, we were told by the Prime Minister that all this excitement has arisen from a "confusion of ideas," and that there was no foundation for such apprehension at all. Lord Salisbury said—
  "I am bound at the same time to say, lest it should be supposed that we have been maintaining a desperate diplomatic battle in favour of the Treaty of Tien-tsin, that nobody has ever yet suggested the slightest intention of infringing any of the rights we enjoy under that Treaty."
  What are those rights? They are all contained in the last words of the Treaty of Tien-tsin that England shall enjoy in China every advantage that any other country possesses. Well, if that be so, and the statement of the Prime Minister is true, as I am sure it is, that nobody has ever suggested the slightest intention of infringing any of the rights we enjoy under that Treaty, why is the country allowed to be alarmed on the subject? The Prime Minister adds—
  "And I venture to hope, knowing the soundness of judgment of the statesmen by whom Europe is governed, that no such intention will ever be entertained."
  Is that true? If that is so, why are we to have speeches of the kind we have been listening to inciting the minds of the people in this country, first against Russia and then against Germany, when there is not the slightest intention on the part of those nations to do anything of what we have reason to complain. With reference to this affair of Port Arthur the Prime Minister said—
  "We have received spontaneously from the Russian Government a written assurance that any port which they might obtain leave to employ for the outlet of their commerce would be a free port, free to the commerce of this country. Now, a free port is much better than a Treaty port. So, having ascertained that Ta-lien-wan was to be a free port, it interested us very little indeed to know whether it was to be a Treaty port or not."

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  Well, now, Sir, if that is true, why in the world is the public mind to be disturbed upon these subjects. I saw this morning that the Times was beginning to sound the alarm again as to the present condition of things. It was for that reason that I put a question this afternoon to the right hon. Gentleman, asking him to present to Parliament documentary evidence which would satisfy the country upon this question. We have had vague statements, but surely matters of such supreme consequence as this must have been reduced to writing, and there ought to be no secrecy with reference to the interests and to the commerce of this country. We cannot too soon see this assurance in black and white, and then we can judge of what is intended in the case. As regards Port Arthur, the hon. Member for King's Lynn quoted certain eloquent passages from a publication ascribed to the Under Secretary of State, and he spoke of them as the language of the Foreign Office. I do not think that is exactly correct. I think that they were expressions used by the right hon. Gentleman when, what shall I call them?—when he was suffering from that infantile disorder from which the hon. Member for Sheffield in his maturer years has not yet recovered. It was like an attack of the measles, or Russophobia, from which the young and healthy easily recovers. I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman upon his convalescence. He speaks of those ports and places with entire satisfaction, in his official capacity, and tells us that Russia has done nothing in respect to Port Arthur which she is not perfectly entitled to do without violating our Treaty rights. Then why are we to have any alarm on the subject of Russia and Port Arthur? The hon. Member for Sheffield thinks that we ought to join Japan and make war against Russia before the Siberian railway is finished—a railway through her own territory. The Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs went on to say—
  "Russia has sent ships of war to Port Arthur, and if blame is to be attached to her for doing so, Her Majesty's Government must be included in the accusation, for a fortnight ago we did exactly the same thing. That is a right we enjoy in common with other Powers under the Treaty of Tien-tsin, and in the exercise of that right our Admiral from time to
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  time orders ships to visit that port. He did that two or three weeks ago, and if the occasion arises he will do so again."
  If that is so, what is the meaning of all this alarm, of all these panic fears, as to the action of Russia in this matter? It is perfectly obvious—and nobody has better expressed it than the First Lord of the Treasury on more than one occasion—that the advantage of other countries is not necessarily our loss. Personally, I have followed this matter very closely, and I have followed without jealousy, and even with admiration, the progress that Russia is making in the development of her commerce and her manufactures at home. That is the case with Germany also; but as we have the world for our customers, it is a great advantage to us that our customers should be prosperous, and there is nothing more beneficial to our trade than that other countries should have the means and the power to purchase from us. You may depend upon it that whatever their tariffs may be, if they are wealthy countries they will have to come to England for the goods they require. What is the meaning of all this jealousy? In my opinion, it would be more worthy of some upstart parvenu nation than of an ancient people with enormous wealth and unbounded dominions. Why do we have this sort of language which we have listened to to-night? There are some things in these negotiations which have surprised me. I never understood why, if Talien-wan was of so little value, it was ever asked for. It was certainly a thing that was not particularly agreeable to Russia, and that seems to me to be a matter that requires explanation. Then there was that curious condition—that China has agreed not to part with the valley of the Yang-tse-Kiang. It is quite evident that if any nation approached us and asked us not to part with the valley of the Thames the condition is one that we might readily agree to. But whether it was a discreet thing to ask China not to part with the valley of the Yang-tse-Kiang is open to doubt, and it seems to me to be a very curious condition to speak of as a concession. It looks very like giving to China a letter of license to part with all the rest of her territory. But it is not my object at all in this matter to criticise the Government or to weaken

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  their hands. On the contrary, I desire to strengthen their hands against their own supporters to-night, and against this Motion; but what I do ask of the Government is that they will make to the House a frank statement of the actual position of things. If you want to remove the mischief of such speeches as those we have listened to; if you want to remove the evil of this perpetual, I will not say nagging, but denunciation of other countries when there is no foundation for it at all, you ought to tell us, as the Prime Minister told us in reference to Russia, and as he told us in reference to Germany. Lord Salisbury said—
  "Similar assurances have been made to us by the German Government with respect to the territory they have recently occupied; indeed, the German Government went further, and were more flattering to us, for their Ambassador informed me they had come to the conclusion that our manner of dealing with such things, at all events in the Colonies, is better than theirs, and that in this instance, at any rate, they intended to imitate our methods."
  We want to see a record of that assurance. It ought to be presented to Parliament at the earliest possible time, so that we may be assured that there is no real foundation for alarm of this character, and that we should not damage ourselves and our interests in this country by these groundless attacks upon other nations, who, its far as we know, and as far as the Prime Minister tells us, are acting towards us in a perfectly friendly spirit. If that be so, we shall go on, in concert with them, in developing the trade and the civilisation of the world. I believe that that is a much more worthy course for such an Empire as that to which we belong to adopt than the attempts to create jealousies, whether it be against the conduct of Russia when there is no foundation for it, or whether it is against Germany when there is no occasion for entertaining those opinions. For that reason I do hope the Government will be able to give us the same assurances the Prime Minister gave us on the first night of the Session—namely, that there is no real reason to believe that any real interests we have at heart are imperilled, and that there is no ground whatever for cultivating this odious spirit of jealousy and hatred against nations with whom we ought to be friendly.
  *THE UNDER SECRETARY FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. G. N. CURZON,): I quite agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition as to the tone which ought to animate the speeches on either side of the House in this Debate, and I shall endeavour not to depart from that tone. I shall, I hope, also satisfy, at any rate to the best of my ability, the request for information that he has made. I do not know that this is precisely the most favourable moment to have a general discussion on the Chinese question. Much of our proceedings, and some of our negotiations, at Pekin and elsewhere, are still incomplete, and it is, therefore, difficult for me either to present a connected narrative of events to the House, or to give what the right hon. Gentleman has asked for—namely, a full statement of the policy of the Government. It is a sound rule, not merely of the Foreign Office, but I think of common sense also, that while a policy is still in course of development, and while negotiations are still proceeding, some considerable reserve should be maintained in public and Parliamentary utterances as to what is happening; and I am sure I shall not be held to be open to blame if in some respects I am not able to depart from that reserve. At the same time, I quite recognise the propriety of the request of the right hon. Gentleman, and I shall endeavour so far as is possible, within the limits open to me, to make a clear statement of what the views and action of the Government have been. Sir, I accept the contention which has underlain the whole of the speeches to which we have listened, namely that this country enjoys a preponderant interest in China. That, indeed, is one of the commonplaces of modern politics and history which it is needless either to demonstrate or to endorse. We were the first people to unlock the door of China to foreign trade; we were the first Power to survey her coasts; we were the first to drive away pirates from her seas. We were the first to stud the whole line of her coasts with ports open not only to ourselves but to the commerce of the whole world. We were the first people to send steamers up her waterways, to build railways for her, to

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  exploit her mines, and to carry for thousands of miles into the interior of the country the benefits of European manufactures and comforts. And let it not be forgotten that we were the first Power to give to China the nucleus of a pure administration, at the same time that we added a great amount of annual revenue to her Treasury by instituting an Imperial Custom Service in that country. I think it may be truly said that so far as China is not at present an Eastern anachronism, but has within herself a vital, living force, it is in the main due to the initiative and action of this country. Well, Sir, all these circumstances, on which I need not further dwell, explain the preponderant interest and priority of claim which we have in that country. But may I here utter a word of caution? These circumstances do not seem to me to constitute an exclusive interest in China. They do not justify us in regarding with jealousy or suspicion the action of any other competitors who are, perhaps, just as competent and as well equipped as ourselves, but who may have arrived somewhat later on the scene. We may, perhaps, regard with pardonable compunction the encroachment of these rivals upon a sphere of activity which was until recently almost entirely our own. But in so far as it is a legitimate and pacific encroachment we have no cause of complaint; and I submit that we should, on the contrary, endeavour to gird our loins to meet the new condition of affairs and to retain in an age of competition what we won in an age of monopoly. Now, with regard to the speeches we have heard in this Debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield made a most impartial speech. If impartiality consists in distributing the blame equally between the two sides of the House, I never heard a less partisan speech; but I doubt whether it would be in our power, or the power of any Government, whatever its intentions might be, to act up to the high level of the patriotism and courage of my hon. Friend. Sir, at the same time, the Government have no difficulty in accepting the Motion which has been placed on the Paper and moved by my hon. Friend. We agree with him that the integrity and independence of China are matters of intense solicitude to the
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  Government, as they must be to any British Government, and that they may be considered to be the cardinal bases of our policy with reference to that country. Passages have been quoted this afternoon from writings of my own, and I was surprised to find that an hon. Gentleman of so much wit and originality as the hon Member for King's Lynn, who sits behind me, should have devoted so much of his speech—and in my opinion the least dull portion of his speech—to extracts from writings, for which I should not have thought à priori that he entertained so much, respect. Well, Sir, as has been pointed out, I am not one of those who have any very great belief in the inherent stability of the Chinese Government. Pressed as China is on every side, and incapacitated for successful resistance as she always hitherto has been by defects in her Government and institutions, I can well foresee that she is confronted in the future by even greater dangers than those which she has had to meet in the past. But, at any rate, our policy is and must be to prevent her disruption as long as we can, and to secure for her that fresh lease of life to which her immense and magnificent resources entitle her. We are, therefore, opposed to the alienation of any portion of Chinese territory, or to the sacrifice of any part of Chinese independence. That is a policy from which the Government have abstained, and which they have no desire to initiate. I can conceive, Sir, of circumstances arising in the future, circumstances gravely affecting, and, perhaps, seriously imperilling, our interests in China, which might tempt us, and even compel us, to depart from that attitude of reserve. But the seizure of Chinese territory, the alienation of Chinese territory, the usurpation of Chinese sovereignty, is not primarily any part of British policy; and that which we repudiate for ourselves, it is not likely that we should regard with a welcoming eye if attempted by others. With regard to the questions put to me by my hon. Friend, he said he was disappointed that I had not been able to give him, in reply to more than one question, more information as to what was passing in Manchuria. But I assure my hon. Friend that we have given him the whole of the information which is in our possession.

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  We have received no confirmation of the rumours to which he alluded, and I think he may rely upon it that our representatives in that part of the world are fully acquainted with their duty to send us all the reliable information they receive. The second point on which my hon. Friend asked questions was with regard to the Cassini Convention. He asked me whether that document was in force; but, according to our information, it has never existed. We have had, from the first time that questions were asked upon the subject in this House, the most emphatic assurances from the Russian Government that there was no truth in the rumours of the existence of that Convention. I pass from these smaller points to an endeavour to satisfy the request of my right hon. Friend. I propose to give the Committee a short but, I hope, a succinct history of recent events. The whole of these events date in reality from the Chino-Japanese War of 1892."The whole face of the East was changed by the results of that war. It exercised a most profound and disturbing effect upon the balance of power, and upon the position and destinies of all the Powers who either are situated or have interests around the China Seas. Now, Sir, I am not going to be tempted to embark on a discussion of the question raised by the hon. Member for Sheffield, as to whether the late Government were or were not wise in taking up an attitude of abstention at the close of the war. I am so anxious to eliminate from what I have to say anything in the nature of Party dissent that I would prefer to put that question aside altogether. But I think there can be no doubt, and the Leader of the Opposition will not deny it, that the steps taken at that time by the Governments of Russia, Germany, and France in the interests of China have had an immense effect in that part of the world in increasing the interests and pretensions of those Powers and in establishing a lien on the gratitude of China. Well, Sir, it was from the results of that war that recent events have arisen. A further instalment of the war indemnity was due to Japan at an early date, and it was the endeavour on the part of China to raise the money for that purpose that brought about the negotiations of which so much has been heard. With regard to the subject of the Loan, I think there has been some misapprehension.
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  We were asked to make a Loan. We did not, in the first place, offer to do it of our own accord. The initiative was taken, not by us, but by the Chinese Government, but when the request came to the Government from China the Government decided, not merely that they were better qualified to lend the money than any others, but that in the interests of commercial expansion, which we have always had in view, and in the interests of sound finance, the assistance was what might very properly be given. The Government offered to give assistance to China by means of a Loan of £16,000,000 on terms which, it cannot be denied, were of the most generous kind. We asked in return certain advantages which were not of a selfish or exclusive nature. On the contrary, the advantages we asked for were specially chosen so as not to offend the susceptibilities or clash with the interests of any foreign Powers; but they were of a character to benefit the trade, and interest, not only of China herself, but of all countries, as well as our own. Nevertheless, these efforts on our part did not prevent suspicion from being aroused, or agencies being set in operation, which proved inimical to the granting of the Loan in its original form. The Chinese Government withdrew their original request, and I should imagine that no one in this House, not even my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, would argue that we ought to have forced our money down the throat of China at the butt, as it were, of the ramrod. Of course, these negotiations and the conditions attached to them lapsed, or rather passed into another groove. But we received from the Chinese Government an assurance that the Loan, which they ceased to ask from us, should not be invited from another Government; and negotiations, which I have heard this afternoon have been carried to a successful issue, have been proceeding in the interval for raising a Loan through the ordinary channels, by means of certain very influential banks. Moreover, the Chinese Government, further influenced by considerations which have been placed before them by the British Minister in the discussions at Pekin, intimated their desire to make certain concessions which should be beneficial, not merely to British

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  trade and British influence, but equally so to all foreign trade and influence. I am a little surprised that the hon. Member for King's Lynn, in his survey of the situation, made no allusion whatever to these concessions, which have been published in this country and read out in this House, and which, I think, are a very material factor in the consideration of the whole question. Now, it is not necessary for me to repeat at length what I have already said on previous occasions, but may I briefly recapitulate the advantages which have been secured? In the first place, the opening of internal navigation on all rivers in China to British steamers from the middle of the ensuing summer, which means that we shall be able to take British merchandise in British ships, not merely to the ports recognised by Treaty, but to every riverside town and station in the whole of the interior of China. Secondly, there is the provision upon which I think the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition put a rather forced interpretation—an interpretation certainly which the Government do not endorse—as to the non-alienation of territory in the Yang-tse region to any other Powers. Why was that stipulation asked for? The Yang-tse Valley is, as everybody knows, that part of China the commercial development of which has been peculiarly the work of the merchants and financiers of this country. It is the main and natural outlet for British commerce in China, and, moreover, it is worth remembering that the Hinterland—if I may use the term—of the Yang-tse Valley is contiguous with the upper regions of our own territory in Burmah, and it is the ambition of many in this country that at some future date, if not, at any rate, at the present time, there shall be railway connection between the two. The third provision was the assurance that the office of Inspector General shall continue to be held by an Englishman—perhaps I should say a Briton—so long as British trade is in the ascendant in China. Sir, this, I think, may be regarded as a tribute not merely to the predominance of British trade, but to the character and services of that eminent man, Sir Robert Hart; and when I mention that, according to the statistics of the Imperial Customs in China for the year
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  1897, Great Britain carries 82 per cent. of the total trade in China that passes under a foreign flag, and pays 76 per cent. of the dues and duties collected upon that trade, it must be obvious to the House that if we ever forfeit that predominance it will be entirely owing to our own fault. The fourth assurance was the opening of a port in Hu-nan in two years' time. It may be asked, Why should there be a delay in this? The reason is very simple. The delay is due to the fanaticism and the notoriously turbulent character of the population of that province, into which Europeans can hardly be said to have penetrated, but which, I believe, is regarded as a vast field of potential wealth in the future. Well, Sir, these, briefly summarised, are the four concessions made by the Chinese Government. I venture to say that they are considerable and valuable concessions. They have been secured without any financial risk or obligation on the part of this country, and I think we are entitled to regard them both as a tribute to the friendliness of the Chinese Government and to the ability of the British Minister at Pekin. When Sir Claude Macdonald was appointed, there were some of my hon. Friends on this side of the House who doubted the wisdom of that appointment, and somewhat severely criticised it in the House. I think those of my hon. Friends who took that line will now admit that a more vigorous and capable representative we have rarely if ever had at Pekin; and that the application of his independent and resolute personality to the time-honoured mechanism of Chinese diplomacy has, I venture to say, been attended with most beneficial results. Sir, I pass now to the other events which have been happening in China. The first of these was the action of Germany, who, in reparation for an outrage inflicted upon some of her missionaries, acquired a long lease of the port Kiaou Chau, and declared their intention to make that a free port. I may say, Sir, that in addition to that assurance the German Government have given repeated assurances to Her Majesty's Government that they have no desire to disturb the integrity or to shake the peace of China, or in any way to conflict with the interests and susceptibilities of Great Britain.
  *SIR W. HARCOURT: May I ask whether the correspondence which shows these facts will be presented to Parliament?
  *MR. CURZON: That is a question which I answered on behalf of the Secretary of State this afternoon. He hopes to lay the correspondence at a later date, and, of course, he will endeavour to include that to which the right hon. Gentleman refers.
  *SIR W. HARCOURT: You will excuse me. I can quite understand that if there are further negotiations going on which are the subject of this particular matter, there might be some difficulty in publishing the correspondence. But I gather that what is before Parliament is concluded, and, therefore, we could have these papers. For instance, if satisfactory assurances have been given by Russia and by Germany on this point, why should we not have the papers?
  *MR. CURZON: Of course, I cannot speak for the Secretary of State, but I will represent to him what the right hon. Gentleman has said, and I have little doubt that, when the papers are laid—and that will be as soon as possible—communications on this matter will be included. The next point is the action and attitude of Russia; and on this point what happened was as follows: A discussion having arisen upon the desire of Russia to possess an ice-free outlet for her commerce on the seas in the far East—a desire with the legitimacy of which sympathy has been frequently expressed in this country—an assurance was voluntarily given by Russia that any such port would be open, subject to the same conditions as regards shipping and commerce, as those which prevail in other open ports on the Chinese coast. Now, Sir, a slight controversy has arisen as to the exact nature of these assurances, which have, more than once this afternoon, been described as ambiguous and vague.
  SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: No; this is the first time We have had that assurance.
  *MR. CURZON: Well, the misapprehension, if any, arose from a doubt as to whether the Russian Ambassador, in re-presenting the views of his Government, had, in the first place, spoken of an open port or a free port. The Russian Government
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  have not precluded themselves from declaring in the future that the port shall be a free port, but their present assurance is that such a port shall, in any case, be an open port. The difference between the two is this: A free port is one like Hong-Kong, at which no tariff whatever is imposed on commerce. An open port is a Treaty port, like all other ports on the Chinese coast, in which the tariffs are assimilated, and in which no higher dues can be exacted from British or foreign commerce than can be exacted from anyone else coming to the Treaty ports. I hope I have made these points clear. This is the triple series of events that has taken place in China—first the negotiations for the Loan, which has now taken a different form from that originally contemplated; secondly, the action of Germany, resulting in the assurance that Kiao Chau shall be a free port; and, thirdly, the assurance of Russia as to the constitution of an open port. Sir, the principles which have underlain the policy of the Government in each of these cases have been the same, and they are the principles which have been more than once stated by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House—outside these walls. The first is that to which I have alluded—the maintenance of the integrity and the independence of China. The second is the preservation of our Treaty rights; and here, once again, there seems to be much dispute as to what those Treaty rights are. There are three Articles in the Treaty of Tien-tsin of 1858 which must be borne in mind. The first is Article 24, by which it is agreed that British subjects shall pay on all merchandise the duties prescribed by the Tariff, but in no case shall they be called upon to pay other or higher duties than are required from other foreign nations. The next Article, 52, provides that British ships of war, coming for no hostile purpose, shall be at liberty to visit all ports within the dominions of the Emperor of China, and shall receive every facility for obtaining provisions and water, and for the making of repairs. The third is Article 54, which confers what is commonly known as most favoured nation rights. It is as follows—
  "It is hereby expressly stipulated that the British Government and its subjects will be

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  allowed free and equal participation in all privileges, immunities, and advantages that may have been, or may be hereafter, granted by the Emperor of China to the Government or subjects of any other nation."
  These three Articles are the main charter of our position in China, and we cannot consent—and I do not think any British Government would consent—either to their abandonment or infraction.
  *SIR W. HARCOURT: Have they been threatened?
  *MR. CURZON: I think I have answered that question. The fact that they may not actually have been threatened or infringed already does not dispense the Government from exercising vigilance as to what may happen in the future. These Articles give the Government the right to oppose any exclusive privileges or special tariffs that may be sought for by others. They establish, in fact, equality of treatment and opportunity as the principal basis of our relations—I might almost say, the principal basis of international law—in reference to China. Sir, the third principle of our policy is that of free commerce. Our belief is that the integrity of China, which we are asked by this Motion to safeguard, is most likely to be secured by throwing open China to the interests and intercourse of the whole world, and not, so to speak, by closing her into separate water-tight compartments, each bearing a separate label or appellation of its own. The more Powers, and the more civilised Powers, that you interest in China, the more likely you are to be able to sustain her integrity and welfare. The concessions which were originally asked for, and those which have been granted to Her Majesty's Government, have been animated by this spirit, and they will be interpreted in that sense. I should like to say that I hope in the remarks I have made I have said nothing at all divergent from the spirit in which I was invited to approach this question by the Leader of the Opposition. I would add that the Government frankly acknowledge the generous and loyal support which upon this question they have received from right hon. and hon. Members opposite, both on the platform and in both Houses of Parliament, since the Session began. The confidence and that
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  support, of course, place a great responsibility on the shoulders of the Government, but they also, I think, may give us some confidence in believing that in pursuing the policy which I have endeavoured to sketch in outline the Government are not acting merely as the nominees of a Parliamentary majority, but as the trustees of the entire nation.
  The Resolution was then agreed to.

  THE RETIREMENT OF JUDGES.
  *SIR EDWIN LAWRENCE: Mr. Speaker, in rising to move—
  "That in the opinion of the House it is for the interest of the public, with regard to the due administration of justice, that in all future appointments of judges a limit of age shall be fixed for their compulsory retirement, and that it is desirable that the Government should forthwith, by legislation or otherwise, provide for this object"
  I desire to say that nothing that I say shall in any sense be regarded as an attack upon a particular judge. My Motion is entirely a general Motion on a matter of general principle. In almost every Department there is now a fixed time limit at which officials are obliged to retire while they are still in the full vigour of their powers, and surely it is not right that a man should remain, at his post as a judge when age has come upon him and lessened his powers; therefore, Sir, I desire that some time limit shall be fixed for the retirement of judges. Both in history and in fiction it has been shown that when a man is to retire at his own discretion, when he has lost his discretion he has not sufficient left to retire. There was a time, not so very long ago, when the members of the British Bench thought that the reputation of the Bench was suffering from the senile infirmities of one of their number, and they deputed a young judge to wait upon the old judge, to inform him that the Bench thought the time had come when he should retire. The old judge—a man of great power—looked at the younger judge, and, raising his eyebrows, said, "Have my brethren sent you to tell me this?" and the young judge left the room quicker than he had entered it. If this has been the case in fiction and in history, is it not reasonable to ask that the wisdom of the Legislature

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  shall do as it has done for every other office—viz., fix the time when the judge shall retire when age comes upon him? Well, Sir, I have no desire to fix a short period, but let us fix some period. When I was a student at the Bar in 1866 there was a grave scandal, because at that time there was a judge 92 years of age still sitting on the Bench. There was in the House of Lords considerable discussion on the question. But, Sir, 10 years before that—in 1856—in this House there was a discussion on the same subject, and the same judge's name was mentioned, when he was a young man of 82. Still, notwithstanding this discussion, this young man of 82 remained 10 years longer on the Bench, until he was a judge of 92, and even then there was the greatest difficulty to persuade him to retire. If this has been the case in times past, it is not impossible that it may happen again; and we all know that in a very large number of cases delays take place in Court because a judge is absent suffering from old age. I was told by a member of the Bar that quite recently a case lasted live days, which, if the Judge had been five years younger, would not have lasted two days. Another well-known member of the Bar told me that he tried to interest the Judge in a case he had in hand, when the Judge, in the most solemn tones, replied: "Do you think I am going to take the trouble to understand all these details? No, Sir; I shall send the case for arbitration." It was sent for arbitration, but the result was not satisfactory. There was an appeal, and the Judges said the case ought to have been tried before a jury. They ordered it to go before a jury, but by that time, £10,000 had been lost to the clients in litigation, and the case was no nearer than at first. I am sure we are all proud of our Judges; they are entirely independent of the Crown and the people, and it is only by an Act of Parliament that a Judge can be removed. I do not wish, for a moment, that any Judge should deem that any hon. Member of this House is desirous of compelling him to retire, but what I feel is that there should be a limit of age fixed for their compulsory retirement, and that by no means should they be allowed to exceed that age limit. The moment you give to the Prime Minister power to extend
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  the time limit, you render the Judge subservient to the Prime Minister. I want the Judges to retire while they are in the fullest vigour. We cannot allow a Judge to carry on the judicial business of this country after he has lost the full vigour of his powers. The country is realising that fact in nearly every other office. Our Generals and our Admirals, and others occupying the highest positions in this country, retire at an age limit; it is only with regard to the Judges on the Bench that no such limit is fixed. The Judges can retire at discretion, and when they have lost that discretion they have not discretion enough to retire. That has been our experience with reference to the Judges in the past, and I think it will be agreed that there are, at the present moment, a number of Judges on the Bench who have certainly passed the ordinary limit at which a man retains his full powers. While an old man may be able, for a limited time, to do as well as a young man—I myself could walk five miles against any young man, yet I could not walk 50 miles—it is impossible for an old man to continue persistent and constant labour in any direction for an extended period of time. From a Judge is demanded great mental and physical labour. Cases frequently extend over many days, and I assert, without fear of contradiction, that it is not within the possibilities of age to retain the power of persistent and continuous attention. I do not wish that any words of mine should force any Judge at present on the Bench to retire, but—[An unsuccessful attempt was here made to count out the House.]—As I was endeavouring to point out to the House, it is impossible that men can retain their full powers after they have passed a certain age. It is the opinion of a large majority of the members of the Bar, and it is an opinion frequently expressed in the public Press, that the lattitude allowed to Judges, of retiring at their own discretion, is a lattitude which has been, greatly abused in the past, and that the time has now come when this lattitude should be curtailed, and an age limit fixed for the compulsory retirement of Judges. It is not advisable, as I have already pointed out, that this time limit should be variable at the option of any Minister of the Crown, or of any body of

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  Ministers. The time of the retirement of a Judge, in order that he shall remain absolutely independent, should be certain, without the possibility of extension. Otherwise, if it were within the power of a Minister of the Crown to extend the time, a Judge might be open to the charge of playing up to that Minister in order to obtain his approval, and secure the desired extension. There is one Judge, the Lord Chancellor, whose office is not permanent, and who retains his office at the pleasure of the Prime Minister; that is to say, if the Prime Minister demands the retirement of the Lord Chancellor he can enforce it. Therefore, no time limit would apply to the Lord Chancellor any more than to a Prime Minister. But, in the appointment of all other Judges, an age limit such as I have mentioned should be fixed for retirement. I am glad my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has just entered the House. It has been said that the Government will refuse to carry out the proposal contained in my Motion, because of the additional cost of pensions which will fall on the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I contend that the enormous cost of litigation, caused in a large measure by the fact that the Judges are too old to carry on their work, is of far more importance to the country than any number of pensions which might fall on the Chancellor of the Exchequer in carrying out my proposal. At this moment there is a fund of £60,000,000 sterling, called the Suitors' Fund. This fund has been already utilised to build the Law Courts, and I do not think the poor suitors, if they could rise from their graves, would at all object to a portion of their money being spent in pensioning off judges after their mental and bodily powers begin to show signs of deterioration. I feel that the time has come when there should be applied to judges, and to all other public officials, the same law as is applied to the Commander-in-Chief of our Army. Not so very long ago a great Commander-in-Chief
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  was forced to retire, having attained the age limit, and that being so, I do not think it is asking too much when I ask this House to say that in all future appointments of judges there shall be a time limit fixed for their retirement. I now move the Motion standing in my name.
  There being no seconder, the Motion fell to the ground.

  FINANCIAL RELATIONS.
  SIR ROBERT REID: Mr. Speaker, I rise to call attention to the financial relations of Scotland with other parts of the United Kingdom, and to move—
  "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire and report whether the interests of the inhabitants of Scotland are inequitably affected under the present arrangement of Imperial taxation and expenditure; and, if so, to report what remedies are practicable."
  I am extremely sorry that a question of such importance as this should be brought forward in so thin a House, and at this time of the evening. The situation affords another illustration of the manner in which Scotch business is neglected by this House. I would postpone the question to a more auspicious occasion—an occasion more convenient to Members—most willingly if it were not absolutely impossible for us to obtain any other day this year, such is the plethora of business which this House has to discharge. I have no desire to unduly dwell on that aspect of the subject, and I will now try and place the grounds of my Motion as shortly as possible before the House. In the first place, I want to say that the proposal I am making is in substance a proposal that has been made twice by a Conservative Government within the last seven or eight years. In 1890 a Select Committee was appointed to consider, among other things, putting it shortly, (1) the contribution to revenue by England, Scotland, and Ireland respectively; (2) the amount paid under recent legislation

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  to local authorities in England, Scotland, and Ireland respectively; and (3) how far the financial relations of those different parts of the United Kingdom are equitable, having regard to the resources and population of the three countries. I want to observe that I have not given the exact words, but I have given most accurately the substance of the proposals of the Government in 1890. The Select Committee only held one meeting, and no work was done. But it is important to remember that this Committee was appointed by a Conservative Government, and its appointment proves that in 1890 the Government of the day thought an inquiry necessary. At that time a great deal of money was being distributed to local authorities in different parts of the United Kingdom out of Imperial funds, and it was considered—and, I think, rightly considered—by the Chancellor of the Exchequer of that day that that distribution required investigation as to the relative claims of different parts of the United Kingdom. The reappointment of that Committee was in vain sought both from Irish quarters and Scotch quarters—it should have been sought also from English quarters. Lord Salisbury's Government and Mr. Gladstone's Government refused to reappoint the Committee. In 1894 a Royal Commission was appointed instead, in connection with the Home Rule Bill. It was not appointed to consider the whole subject, but only to investigate the financial relations between Great Britain and Ireland. They were not to inquire into the financial relations between England, Scotland and Ireland, as had been the case when the Select Committee was appointed in 1890. That happened in 1890. In that way Scotland was taken out of any consideration in the appointment of a Royal Commission which followed the appointment in 1894. The result of that is a very valuable Report by the Royal Commissioners with regard to the financial relations
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  of Ireland. Sir, I have nothing whatever to do with that I do not intend to enter upon elaborate figures and, indeed, the reasonings and figures contained in the various Reports is extremely elaborate, but in 1897 upon being pressed as the Government were with the consequences of the Reports made by that Royal Commission, upon being urged by the Irish Members to do justice in financial matters of Ireland, the Government declined to accept as conclusive the Reports of the Lords Commissioners; and last year a promise was given that a Royal Commission should again be appointed, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer in one of his speeches said that the case of Scotland would come before that Royal Commission separately, as well as the case of Ireland and the case of England, and that if it appeared that any injustice was being done that that injustice would be rectified. That is all one can ask; and I say myself, without any hesitation, that we Scotchmen, as far as I know, have no desire to anticipate, no desire to dogmatise on figures. All we want is to have fair inquiries made. If you will appoint honourable men to make those inquiries, we shall be perfectly satisfied at the fair results at which they arrive. I do not believe there is the smallest desire to pay one farthing less than our proper contribution towards the British Exchequer in support of the Imperial outlay, of which we have our share. We do not for one moment wish to escape any legitimate claim. There was a promise given in 1897 that that Royal Commission should be appointed, but it has not yet been appointed. The other day, when a question was asked upon it, the First Lord of the Treasury explained that difficulties had arisen partly from the Irish Benches. It is quite natural, but I understand the hon. Gentlemen from Ireland do not wish to have re-opened the question which they think has been settled in their favour by the Report of the Commission of 1894, but also the right hon. Gentleman

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  said that the blame attached to the right hon. Gentlemen sitting on those Front Benches.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir MICHAEL HICKS BEACH,): No; what my right hon. Friend said was that the same view was taken by right hon. Gentlemen sitting in that part of the House.
  SIR ROBERT REID: Sir, they applied to serve on the new Royal Commission. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman said that the view taken was that the Irish side of the question should not be opened again. I did not understand, and I think it would be a very great injustice to my right hon. Friends to say that they wish to keep back anything derogatory to the case of Scotland. I believe that would be a great injustice to my right hon. Friends, and, as they are not all of them here, I think it my duty to make that protest. I sympathise most heartily with the Irish, because I think they are overtaxed; that is a matter of omission, but I protest against the Scotch case being sacrificed. I think I am entitled to say that this matter ought to be brought forward on its merits. Having stated so much, I think I have made good this ground—that the present Government were of opinion in 1890, and again in 1897, that the case of Scotland was one that demanded inquiry. That is all I, on this Motion, affirm. I only wish now to give a few figures which, by the necessity of the case, must be tentative. I will not trouble you with any great number of figures; I only wish to indicate the figures which, I think, incontestably show that there is a financial grievance on the part of Scotland. I do not wish, as I have said, to dogmatise, because I know how intricate the subject is, and because I have read the Reports, and, to my sorrow, the evidence that was given before the Irish Commission, and it is very difficult to be absolutely accurate with regard to almost any figure within a small margin; but
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  one can be substantially accurate, and you can obtain substantial results I have no doubt whatever. I believe substantial results will show that a real injustice is being done to the inhabitants of Scotland. Without assuming that these matters are to be commented upon the principle of recognising a separate entity, in the first place I wish to ascertain what is the relative taxable amount of Scotland in comparison with England. I leave Ireland out of the case, because it would only complicate matters. I think the right hon. Gentleman will not dispute, when he hears a few figures of my case, that Ireland is not left out of my calculation for the purpose of "cooking" figures. What is the result, as regards Scotland, roughly made in figures? Roundly speaking, I believe it can be shown that Scotland bears the relation to England that 1 does to 9¼. The population, at the time I am taking my figures, 1893 and 1894—the figures in the report of the Royal Commission—was, roughly, 1 in Scotland and 9¼ in England. I could show that there is unfairness in this taxation. I will not adopt the temporary method which has been used by my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackfriars—namely, omit the non-taxed revenue, which, of course, obviously is not taxation at all. It might be done otherwise, but it seems to me that the following is the simplest way if you omit the direct taxation; also, because they fall upon persons according to their means. They fall upon a man in Scotland in the same way as upon a man in England, whether it be death duty or an infant tax, and I look really at the substance of the thing—namely, taxation of commodities. With regard to this the round figures are, Scotland 5½ millions, while England pays 34 millions—that is to say Scotland pays far in excess of her share. If you adopt the basis of taxable capacity, her proper share should be about 3¾ millions. If you compare her share with that of England—England pays 34 millions—Scotland ought to pay 3¾

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  millions; so upon this solid basis we pay 1¾ millions beyond what we ought to do in the way of revenue. Let me apply another method, so as to apply per head of population. If one looks at the taxation by commodities, one finds that England pays per head gross 22s. and.48—roughly speaking, 23s.—and Scotland pays, in round figures, 27s.—that is to say, Scotland pays 4s. more per head than England; and then, whatever view you take of taxable capacity, unless you suppose what is absurd, that Scotland is richer than England, you overtax Scotland, per head of taxation, upon this article of "commodity." Take another example, one which includes local expenditure; but before going into that, may I say one word about the last figures I have quoted? I am quite aware that there must be some adjustment in these figures, because all the spirits which pay in Scotland are not necessarily, I trust, consumed in Scotland, and I am quite aware that some adjustment has to be made in respect of matters of that kind; but I say, if you make any allowance which is fair upon that it will still leave upon subsequent commodities a much greater amount in Scotland that it does in England. Now, I come to the last figures which I will inflict upon the House. As I said before, my desire is not to labour these figures. If I did, I might occupy an indefinite space of time and lead to confused ideas upon the subject. I take another test, from the Parliamentary Reports of 1894, which shows the total revenue as contributed by the different parts of the United Kingdom. It shows a local expenditure, as paid by the Government, in the three parts of the kingdom, and then the balance gives how much each country contributes as net contribution to the Imperial expenditure. Now, Sir, passing the unhappy case of Ireland, which does not contribute so much as in England by something less than 2,000,000 sterling, England contributes, net, about 52,014,000 and Scotland contributes about 6,650,000. I am taking round figures. Now, if this were in the proportion of the taxable capacity of 1 to 9.2, or 9¼, Scotland would pay something like 1,000,000 less. The
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  fact is, upon this test also Scotland is found to pay 1,000,000 more than she ought to pay in the nature of contribution to the Imperial expenditure. Now, Sir, I have endeavoured to show—and I pause there—I have endeavoured to show that not only by applying the principle of entity, but also by dealing with the contribution per head of population, and in regard to commodities, I have endeavoured to show, and I think I have done so, that there is too much contributed by Scotland; and I must add that the balance, when it comes into the Exchequer, and is used for Imperial purposes, is so spent as to leave Scotland paying a very large sum of money for which she gets no return. To a certain extent that must be so, because the capital of the United Kingdom will, of course, always remain in England, but at the same time there is thrown upon the resources of Scotland (large as I am glad to think those resources have been) about a million pounds on the Army Reserve forces in Scotland, and about a million on the Navy, and that leaves a balance of which much must have been spent in England. Now, Mr. Speaker, I have dealt shortly with this Measure, and I want to say expressly why I have dealt shortly with it. It will be possible, as I have said, to enormously increase the number of figures and calculations that I have endeavoured to place before the House, but my object is to get a Committee, and it would be a waste of the time of the House to labour this matter unduly. My object is to get a Committee for the purpose of inquiring into these matters. I ask no more than that, but I desire to point out, if you are doing as you are doing, giving £770,000 this year to Ireland (I am not making any complaint of that at this moment at all, if you are doing that, the case of Scotland is infinitely stronger than the case of Ireland. The Irish receive a very large sum in excess of their £4,000,000 of expenditure in that country, whereas we in Scotland not only pay a larger sum than we think we ought to do, but we receive less than what we think is our legitimate share in return. Now, I will only

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  say one word in regard to the nature of the remedies, because I think that is a matter which ought to be inquired into by the Commission. I believe myself that the case of England, Scotland, and Ireland is practically identical. I believe myself that no such remedy is to be found by treating this inequality on the basis of entities at all. I believe it is equally true, and if I was the Member for Wiltshire or some other part of England, I could get up a case for that part if I were able to obtain a separate return for those counties as in Scotland. I believe I could then get up and make just as good a case in regard to Wiltshire or Dorsetshire, and I say I have no more desire that the Exchequer should be burdened to relieve Scotland than I have that the Exchequer should be burdened to relieve any inequalities there are in Wiltshire or Dorsetshire. I believe that is not a proper position to take up, but I believe the cause of all the inequality lies in this—that the incidence of taxation in this country is such that it falls with greater severity upon poor people than upon rich; and if you once take that as the ground of your remedy, if you inquire into the evil and its consequences and its remedies in that spirit, it may be, I think it will be, possible, at all events it will do a great deal more than is done at present for the purpose of remedying that which is a common injustice to all parts of the United Kingdom. Sir, the reason why Scotland contributes more in proportion to her taxable capacity than England is because (although I am glad to say the difference is diminishing year by year, and I hope will soon be abolished, possibly it may be said that Scotland is not so rich as England) England, on the whole, is richer. There are more poor people in Scotland, although I do not think very much poorer, and the consequence is that the burden of taxation upon the system which is at present applied, comes more severely upon Scotland than it does upon England. That is one thing of which we complain, but I believe the complaint is common to all the poorer districts in England as well as Scotland. Another complaint which I think is separate to Scotland is the outlay, the expenditure,
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  is less in Scotland than in England. Upon this I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer will admit that the Scotch Members are not unreasonable in what they ask. I think it has been pointed out, with justice and fairness, that there are a considerable number of cases in which the salaries paid and the wages paid in Scotland, and so forth, are improper in comparison with similar salaries and the same payments that are made in England. That is only a small part, I agree. The great part is that you do not give us any return, as much as you ought to do. It comes to this, that when taxation is paid by individuals the remedy must be applied to individuals in the same way as taxation applies. That, I think, can be established; I do not think there is any real doubt about it. At all events, I ask the House and the Chancellor of the Exchequer to be kind enough, if it is proper, to make some criticism upon what I have said; and to bear it in mind I have not endeavoured to put before the House an exhaustive case, because I do not think the patience of the House would endure it. It is an enormously long subject, though I do not think it is in its main outlines a difficult subject. I have endeavoured to put forward two or three salient principles showing the inequality which Scotland suffers under. Both in 1890 and 1897 there have been promises given by the Government that this matter should be inquired into. I do think we are entitled to have this question fairly considered and inquired into by a Select Committee. It would be a very gratifying conclusion if the Government assent to the appointment of such a Select Committee which would investigate the matter and do justice to the case.
  MR. A. BIRRELL, seconded the Motion.
  Notice taken that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members not being present—
  House adjourned at 8.25.