Commons Sitting of 4 May 1897

NOTICES OF MOTTON.

  IMPROVED HARBOUR ACCOMMODATION (COASTS OF SCOTLAND).
  SIR WILLIAM WEDDERBURN: To call attention to the urgent need for Improved Harbour Accommodation for fishermen on the coasts of Scotland; and to move, "That, looking to the dangers now arising to the lives and property of fishermen from insufficient harbour accommodation, and looking to the admitted inadequacy of the
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  present grant for fishery harbours, Her Majesty's Government should assign to the Scottish Fishery Board public funds sufficient to meet this need, and should readjust the financial relations between the Treasury and the Scottish fishing industry on a basis not less favourable than that existing at the beginning of the century."—[Tuesday, 1st June.]

  MR. ATHERLEY-JONES: To call attention to the subject of Mining Royalties, and to move a Resolution.—[Tuesday, 1st June.]
  EDUCATION (WALES).
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: To call attention to the subject of Welsh Education, and to move a Resolution.—[Tuesday, 1st June.]
QUESTIONS.

  WARDEN ESTATE (SNEEM, CO. KERRY).
  MR. JOHN DILLON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) how many tenants on the Warden Estate at Sneem, in the County of Kerry, have lost their rights under the Land Acts through proceedings instituted against them for arrears of rent; (2) whether he is aware that an eviction decree was obtained at the late Kerry Assizes against a tenant on the Warden property named O'Sullivan because he gave shelter to an evicted tenant named Neill, that this is the third time that Neill has been evicted, and that the poor rates in the division have been raised 30 per cent, owing to the large number of evictions; (3) whether his attention has been directed to the result of the late election of a Poor Law Guardian for the district, in which Mr. Warden was defeated by 98 votes to 19; and (4) whether, in view of the serious condition of the district, the Irish Government will remonstrate with Mr. Warden with regard to the treatment of his tenants?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (MR. GERALD BALFOUR,: The Government has no information on the subject of the first paragraph, and no effective means of obtaining it. It is the fact that an eviction decree was recently obtained against O'Sullivan, but according to the information before me, every other statement in the second and third paragraphs is inaccurate. The decree was not obtained because O'Sullivan gave shelter to an evicted tenant named O'Neill. O'Neill has been evicted once only—namely, in July 1894, when he owed six years' rent; the poor rate has not been raised 30 per cent, in the division, but has remained the same during the past three years. Mr. Warden was not a candidate at the recent election for Poor Law Guardian. With regard to the last paragraph, I have nothing to add to what I stated on the 11th March, in answer to a previous Question of the hon. Member.

  CONSTABULARY (SCOTLAND).
  MR. J. CALDWELL: On behalf of the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. J. G. WEIR), I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether he is aware that the constable recently stationed at Applecross, Ross-shire, is occupied almost exclusively in performing the duties of a gamekeeper; and whether, in view of the fact that the appointment of this constable throws an extra burden on the rates which the crofters, cottars, and fishermen of the district can ill afford, he will consider the advisability of suggesting to the Inspector of Constabulary for Scotland that no new appointment of this character should be made, but that owners of deer forests should, at their own cost, provide any protection for deer which they consider necessary?
  THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. GRAHAM MURRAY,: I am informed that this constable is never employed as a gamekeeper. His appointment was sanctioned by the late Secretary for Scotland, in May 1895, on the recommendation of the Standing Joint Committee of the County and the County Council.

  POST OFFICE SAVINGS BANK.
  MR. CALDWELL: On behalf of the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty, I beg to ask the Secretary to the
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  Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether, having regard to the fact that the average cost of the withdrawal of money from the Post Office Savings Bank by telegraph, is upwards of 1s. for each withdrawal, and that three-fourths of the withdrawals by this means are estimated by the Post Office to be made by the working classes, he will consider the expediency of placing at their disposal a mode of withdrawal less costly than that of withdrawal by telegraph, and more expeditious than withdrawal by ordinary post?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. R. W. HANBURY,: The average cost of withdrawal by telegraph is not upwards of 1s., but much less than 1s., except where a telegram has to be sent both by the depositor and the Department in London. If the depositor only requires the payment to be made next day only one telegram is necessary. For all but cases of urgent need, which are of rare occurrence, this is sufficient and satisfies the depositors. The hon. Member mentions that three-fourths of the telegraphic withdrawals are made by depositors of the working class. I may add that three-fourths of all depositors are of that class, so that there is nothing to show that they, in proportion to others, make a greater use of the telegraph for withdrawing money. The Postmaster General does not think it necessary or expedient to take such a course as the hon. Member indicates, and he desires to state again, as has been stated in this House on February 21 1896, and on the 6th ult., that the Post Office Savings Bank was established for the encouragement of thrift, and not for the purpose of performing the functions of an ordinary bank.

  LOAN FUND SOCIETIES (IRELAND).
  MR. RICHARD M. DANE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) whether he has received a copy of a Resolution passed by the Lisbellaw Loan Fund Board relating to the Report of the Commission appointed to inquire into the administration of the Loan Fund Acts in Ireland; and (2) whether he can state whether the Appendix to the said Report, containing the

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  evidence given before the said Commission, has yet been published; and, if so, when the same will be available for the use of Members?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I have seen the Resolution referred to in the first paragraph. The transcript of the evidence taken at the various inquiries held by the Committee has not been printed. The evidence was very fully reported in local newspapers, and, in view of the elaborate character of the Report of the Committee already presented to Parliament, and of the voluminous nature of the evidence taken at the inquiries, it is not considered necessary to lay the latter on the Table of the House.

  QUEEN'S DIAMOND JUBLIEE.
  MR. DANE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can say that adequate provision will be made for the representation of the Royal Irish Constabulary Force in Her Most Gracious Majesty's Jubilee Procession?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I regret I am not yet able to make an announcement in answer to this Question.
  MR. GERALD LODER: I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education, with a view of allowing managers of elementary schools to give children an extra week's holiday in commemoration of Her Majesty's long reign, he will take steps so far to modify Article 83 of the Code of Regulations as to make the minimum number of times which a school must be opened for the present year 390 instead of 400?
  THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Sir JOHN GORST,: I do not think any modification of the Article is desirable. The Education Department already have power under the Code to deal with exceptional cases, if necessary.
  MR. J. LOWLES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in connection with the National rejoicing and thanksgiving for Her Majesty's long and auspicious reign, he will advise the extension of the Royal clemency to first offenders and other prisoners undergoing terms of imprisonment for minor offences in Great Britain and Ireland?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEY,: I do not think it would be consistent with my public duty to tender such advice to Her Majesty as the hon. Member suggests. Even if I could approve his proposal in principle, I still foresee very great difficulties attaching to any method of giving effect to it.

  FISHERY BOARD (SCOTLAND).
  MR. CALDWELL: On behalf of the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty, I beg to ask the Lord Advocate if he can state when the Fifteenth Annual Report of the Fishery Board for Scotland (Part I.) will be published?
  THE LORD ADVOCATE: Part I. of the Report was laid upon the Table of the House on Friday last, and will be circulated as soon as possible.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (SCOTLAND).
  MR. CALDWELL: On behalf of the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty, I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether arrangements will be made that in future Reports of the Local Government Board for Scotland the reports of medical officers of health shall be dated?
  THE LORD ADVOCATE: If the hon. Member will refer to page 48 of the Board's Report he will see that the extracts are headed "Extracts from Reports for 1895." The Medical Officers' Reports are all made for the calendar year and must be submitted not later than the 31st March of the year following.

  PRIVATE BILL PROCEDURE.
  MR. DAVID THOMAS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) if he can state the amount of expenses incurred by local authorities and railway and other companies in promoting and opposing Private Bills before Parliament, from 1892 to 1895, both inclusive, for England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales (including Monmouthshire), respectively; (2) whether, before the Measure named in the Queen's Speech for amending the existing procedure with respect to Private Bills coining from Scotland and Ireland

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  is submitted to the House, he will give a Return in continuation of Parliamentary Papers, No. 356 of Session 1892, and No. 98 of Session 1893–4; and (3) whether, in the Bill to be introduced, the Government will consider the advisability of making its provisions applicable to Bills coming from Wales?
  SIR MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEY: I am afraid I cannot give the hon. Member this information; nor do I see my way clear to granting the Return he asks for, having regard to the very great labour which its preparation would involve and to the fact that there is no reason for supposing that there has been any material change in the circumstances since the last Return was granted. As regards the last paragraph of his Question, I must refer him to the Leader of the House.

  FOOD SUPPLIES (UNITED KINGDOM).
  MR. H. SETON-KARR: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty, in view of the acceptance by the Government of the Motion of 6th April last on the subject of our national food supplies in the event of war, whether he will ascertain, either by means of a Departmental Committee of Naval Officers or otherwise from naval experts, what number of cruisers will be required to adequately protect our ocean trade routes in the event of a war with one or more maritime Powers; and whether the result of such Inquiry, with full particulars, can be communicated to Parliament?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. GOSCHEN,: The Resolution in question has introduced no new feature whatever so far as the Admiralty is concerned. The hon. Member must think the Admiralty very remiss in their duty if he supposed they have not considered, and considered in detail, the number of cruisers required to protect our ocean trade routes in time of war, and their distribution. [Cheers.] Every spot where cruisers ought to be placed has been the subject of careful thought. It is, of course, one of the chief preoccupations of the First Naval Lord, but it is quite out of the question to make public in any way the proposed strategical disposition of our naval forces. [Cheers.]

  JUSTICES OF THE PEACE (SCOTLAND).
  SIR T. GIBSON-CARMICHAEL: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether his attention has been drawn to the dissatisfaction felt in many parts of Scotland at the fact that certain Chairmen of Parish Councils, who have on former occasions qualified as Justices of the Peace, have been required on re-election to their office to again take oaths and again pay fees before again acting as Justices of the Peace; whether he is aware that Chairmen of District Councils in England in an analogous position are, under Statutes 59 and 60 Vict. c. 22, enabled to continue to act as Justices of the Peace without again taking the oath; and whether Her Majesty's Government would be willing to give facilities for legislation to remove this source of dissatisfaction?
  THE LORD ADVOCATE: My attention has been drawn to the anomaly to which the hon. Member refers, and which an Act of last Session remedied for Chairmen of District Councils in England. Facilities for legislation will be given when possible, but I fear I can give no undertaking for the present Session.

  FOREIGN LOTTERIES.
  MR. EVELYN HUBBARD: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he is aware that large parcels of circulars, inviting subscriptions to lotteries, are sent over from Hamburg and other Continental ports by steamer; and that these circulars are then sent out through some post office in this country bearing the official stamp "Paid," in lieu of postage stamp; and whether, inasmuch as this practice would be illegal if the lottery referred to were held in England, the Postmaster General will consider the advisability of discontinuing this advertisement of foreign lotteries?
  MR. HANBURY: The Postmaster General is not aware to what extent circulars relating to lotteries are sent over from Hamburg and other Continental ports to this country by private agency for posting here, but his attention has been on previous occasions called to the fact that such circulars have been among the packets for which in London and

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  certain large towns payment in money may be accepted instead of in stumps, and which are thereupon impressed with the "Paid" stamp. As the circulars in question are in sealed covers and have all the appearance of ordinary letters, he cannot have cognisance of their nature and refuse them transmission as he could do if they were in open packets.

  POSTMEN (BOLTON).
  MR. G. HARWOOD: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, if he is aware that in the Bolton Post Office certain number of postmen, who likewise deliver letters within the town limits, are classed as rural, and therefore receive 2s. per week less wages than the corresponding town postmen, simply because they have to pass beyond the town limits, even though they have to give two attendances daily, returning to the head office after each delivery, and have also to carry the same weight as town postmen; if he is aware that when such postmen are transferred to a town walk, they have to enter at the foot of the town class, and so, though they may have been many years in the service of the Post Office, are made to rank below those who have only just entered it; and if steps will be taken to abolish this distinction?
  MR. HANBURY: The wages of the postmen named in the Question and of the town postmen at Bolton are the same, except that the maximum of the town postmen is 2s. per week higher. The duties of the postmen in question were in 1894 considered to be lighter, and their attendances shorter than those of their colleagues employed exclusively in the town. Inquiry shall be made to ascertain whether the circumstances have since changed. The transference of a rural postman to town duties does not involve, as the Question appears to imply, any loss of wages. He continues to receive the increments already earned, and has the advantage of rising to a higher maximum. He ranks at the foot of his new class only as regards choice of time of leave and other privileges, which it is only fair not to take away from men who are already enjoying them.

  AUTUMN MANŒUVRES (SCOTLAND).
  MR. JOHN WILSON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary for War if it is the case that the Autumn Manœuvres have been abandoned, and, as arrangements have been made at great expense to bring two battalions of Scotch Militia to participate in these, will he now countermand these orders, seeing that brigading with regulars can be arranged in Scotland, and thus economy as well as efficiency secured; whether, if there is a musketry instructor in Scotland as well as at Aldershot, efficient instruction might be obtained at Lanark; and, if not, will he explain the reason; could he state what is now the special object in bringing two battalions of Militia from Scotland, and is he aware that the time now fixed for doing so is contemporaneous with the time fixed for the training of the 4th Battalion of one of the same regiments at Lanark, and that the staff is not sufficiently complete to admit of splitting the battalions, seeing that there is only one band, one piper band, and one quartermaster for the two battalions; if it is intended to utilise these two battalions of Scotch Militia, during the Jubilee celebrations; and if he is aware that neither has a complete full-dress uniform, not having shakos but only forage caps?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. BRODRICK,: It is not proposed to make any change in the arrangements contemplated for this year's training of the Militia. There is great advantage in occasionally brigading Militia with Regular troops, and this could not be done at Lanark. These battalions are to be brought to Aldershot in order to assemble there the four battalions of the 16th Militia Brigade, of which they form part. The two Militia battalions of the Scottish Rifles and the two of the Highland Light Infantry have always been considered as separate units, and have a staff sufficient to act accordingly. It has not yet been decided which Militia battalions will attend the Jubilee celebration; but it is known that these battalions are without full-dress headdress.

  ILLEGAL TRAWLING (DANISH WATERS).
  MR. CALDWELL: On behalf of the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty, I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether, having regard to the fact that it is the practice in the case of illegal trawling in Danish waters to punish the offenders not only by a substantial fine but also by confiscation of the trawler's gear, will he consider the expediency of taking such steps as will admit of a similar course being adopted in the case of illegal trawling off the coasts of Scotland?
  THE LORD ADVOCATE: The hon. Member appears to be unaware of the fact that the existing law, contained in the Herring Fishery (Scotland) Amendment Act, 1890, already provides for confiscation of nets upon conviction of illegal trawling.

  POSTMEN (PONTYPRIDD).
  MR. ALFRED THOMAS: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, will he explain why postmen of Pontypridd, performing similar duties to postmen in Swansea and Newport, are paid 4s. per week loss than those employed in the towns named; and whether he will take into consideration the case of the postmen of Pontypridd with a view of placing them upon an equality of treatment with, the postmen of Swansea and Newport?
  MR. HANBURY: The reason why the maximum wages of postmen are higher at Swansea and Newport than at Pontypridd is that the two first mentioned towns are much larger, and this distinction is in accordance with the general rule of the Service under which the higher scales of wages are allocated to the large provincial towns. They start at the same wage of 18s. in all these three towns. It does not appear that any application respecting their wages has reached this Office from the postmen at Pontypridd through the regular official channel. Such an application would, of course, be duly considered.

  BRITISH COLUMBIA.
  MR. JAMES ROCHE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any request has been
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  made to Her Majesty's Government for the granting of a charter to any person or group of persons for the purpose of acquiring any portion of the colony of British Columbia; if so, whether he will state for or on behalf of whom this request was made?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN,: No such request has been made to Her Majesty's Government.

  CRETE.
  MR. G. LAMBERT: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether at present there are practically no law courts, no council, and no gendarmes in Crete, and the whole island is governed by Military law; what further steps have been taken by the Government for securing self-government to the Cretans, and whether such self-government has been approved by the Christians in Crete; and whether food is becoming exhausted in the country, and desperation will probably result; and, if so, what action is advised by the Government to avert such consequences.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. G. CURZON,: In that portion of the island which is in occupation by the Great Powers, the Turkish Authorities are still carrying on the administration with the old Gendarmerie. The Cretan Council has, of course, since the disturbance began ceased to meet. In the interior of the island no regular administration, so far as we know, exists. Her Majesty's Government have no means of taking separately any steps for the organisation of the autonomy which it is intended to grant to Crete. The Great Powers intend to carry the project into effect, but the continued presence of the Greek troops and the consequent attitude of the Christian Cretans render progress in this respect very difficult. As regards food supplies, there appears to be no lack of provisions in the interior, where the Christians, in addition to their own crops, have the disposal of the crops of the evicted Mussulmans. It is only on the coast, where great masses of Cretan Mahomedans are gathered together, that there is any serious fear of destitution.

  IRISH MAIL SERVICE.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he can state the result of the negotiations between the Postmaster General and the Great Northern Railway Company of Ireland on the subject of an improved limited mail service to Cavan and Belturbet?
  MR. HANBURY: As was stated in reply to a similar Question from the hon. Member on the 27th ultimo, the railway company state that they are unable to alter the hours of the Day Mail Train from Dundalk so as to give to Cavan, Belturbet and the district generally the improved service desired, except upon terms which the Postmaster General would not be justified in accepting.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether any, and if so what, reply has been received from the Midland Great Western. Railway Company on the question of giving a third class carriage on the limited mail trains on their system?
  MR. HANBURY: In a reply which has been received to-day from the Midland Great Western Railway Company, it is stated that 3rd class passengers will, from the 1st June, be conveyed by the day mail trains on their line, but that the arrangement will be confined to passengers booked through to and from England.
  MR. FARRELL: Will the right hon. Gentleman use his good offices to have this privilege extended to passengers between Irish stations?
  MR. HANBURY: I do not think I can, because, I think, the railway company will not go further at present.

  CANALS AND NAVIGABLE RIVERS (IRELAND) AMENDMENT BILL.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he can now state whether the Government will give facilities for the passage of the Canals and Navigable Rivers (Ireland) Amendment Bill at present before the House?
  MR. HANBURY: A Report was received yesterday from the Board of Works on this Bill, so far as it might affect canals and navigations in their charge. This Report will be at once communicated to the Board of Trade, within whose province the matter lies.

  TURKO-GREEK WAR.
  MR. J. H. DALZIEL: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any proposal has been made by the Government for a conference of representatives of the Great Powers to discuss the present relations between Turkey and Greece; and if so, could he state what was the date of the proposal; and whether there is any immediate prospect of this or any other step being taken by the Powers with a view to the improvement of the present position of affairs?
  MR. CURZON: Communications are passing between the Great Powers; but it is impossible at present to make any statement as to their character. There is an earnest desire on the part of the Powers to bring about a termination of the war, but it must be obvious that the first essential for successful mediation is that the belligerents should give evidence of their willingness to accept it.
  MR. DALZIELasked whether he was to understand that the right hon. Gentleman refused to answer the terms of his Question?
  MR. CURZON: Yes, Sir. The hon. Gentleman can interpret my answer in no other way. ["Hear, hear!" and laughter.]

  AUXILIARY POSTMEN (IRELAND).
  MR. D. MACALEESE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, if he can state if auxiliary rural postmen in Ireland will be entitled under the new arrangements to summer uniforms, and when will those uniforms be distributed; are any rural postmen at the present time performing five hours per day duty; and, when will the increased pay of 15s. per week come into operation in those cases?
  MR. HANBURY: Auxiliary rural postmen in Ireland doing five hours' work or more a day will be entitled to summer uniform. It is feared that it will not be practicable to make the distribution of such uniform to them this year. The now arrangements apply to the whole of the United Kingdom, and the preparation of the contracts and the making of the uniforms will necessarily occupy a considerable time. There are rural postmen at the present time performing five hours per day duty. The increased pay

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  of 15s. a week is to be given to postmen doing a full day's work. It will date from the 1st April last, and will be allotted as speedily as possible.

  MONAGHAN UNION.
  MR. MACALEESE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland upon what ground the Chief Land Commission selected Messrs. Thompson and M'Kenzie to act as appeal valuers in the Monaghan Union, since these gentlemen have had no experience and can have but little knowledge of tillage farming in Ulster; and, will the Chief Land Commission recall these valuers, and appoint in their stead others conversant with the difficulties small farmers in the Monaghan Union have to contend against?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The selection of appeal valuers is a matter entirely within the discretion of the Land Commissioners, and is not one in which the Irish Government can take any action.

  POST OFFICE ESTABLISHMENTS.
  MR. D. CRILLY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, how much of the immediate additional expenditure on the Post Office Department of £135,000, and of the ultimate increased cost of £275,000, will be received by the London inspectors of postmen, the provincial inspectors of postmen, the London sorters, the provincial sorting clerks, and the London overseers, head postmen, bagmen, lobby officers, and telegraph linemen?
  The HON. MEMBERalso asked the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, how much of the £150,000, which he informed the House the other day would eventually go to the postmen as the result of the adoption of the recommendations by the Tweedmouth Committee, will fall to the lot of the poorest paid class, the rural postman?
  MR. HANBURY: In reply to the two Questions of the hon. Member, the Postmaster General does not consider that it would be right to furnish minute details of the proportionate cost of applying the recommendations of the Tweedmouth Committee to the several classes of Post Office servants who will be benefited, and he must therefore decline to give the
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  particulars asked for. With regard, however, to one part of the hon. Member's Question, the Postmaster General feels bound to demur to the reference to the rural postmen as the poorest paid class of Post Office servants.

  BETTING MESSAGES.
  MR. R. ASCROFT: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether it is correct that on the occasion of large race meetings preference is given at the telegraph offices to racing and betting messages over ordinary business messages, and whether he will cause inquiries to be made as to same with a view to such course being at once abandoned?
  MR. HANBURY: As far as the Postmaster General is aware, it is not correct that on the occasion of large race meetings preference is given at the telegraph offices to racing and betting messages over ordinary business messages; but if the hon. Member will furnish him with any information which leads him to think that such a practice exists, he will be glad to cause inquiries to be made in the matter. The officers of the Department are strictly forbidden to give any favour or priority of transmission, and any officer wilfully delaying the transmission of a telegram is liable to severe penalties.

  CANADIAN MAIL SERVICE.
  MR. VESEY KNOX: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the provisional contract made with Messrs. Peterson, Tait and Company for the Canadian Mail Service contains the same provision as that previously entered into with Messrs. Allan, by which the Canadian Government might require the ships to stop at an Irish port of call; and whether, having regard to the long established custom under which the Canadian mail steamers call at the port of Derry, and to the close connection and large passenger service between Ulster and Canada, he will endeavour to secure, before assenting to a grant in aid out of British, and Irish revenue, that the new steamers shall call at Lough Foyle, provided the improvements necessary for the prompt dispatch of the mails are made by the postal authorities and railway companies?
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: The Question of the contract for the Canadian

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  Mail Service is still under consideration; but Her Majesty's Government have stipulated that, if required, the vessels performing the Service should call both ways en route al an Irish port.

  BOARD OF INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRELAND).
  MR. KNOX: I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education what is the result of the communications between the Science and Art Department and the Board of Intermediate Education for Ireland, relating to the rule under which the Board's result fees have been treated as endowments and deducted from the fees payable by the Department; whether his attention has been called to the Report of the Board for 1896, wherein the amounts of result fees paid to each school out of the original endowment and out of the local taxation (Customs and Excise) grant are separately set out, showing that less than one-sixth is derived from the endowment; and whether, under the circumstances, the Science and Art Department will revise their rule and give retrospective effect to the revision, so as to secure equal treatment in this respect to Irish and English schools?
  SIR J. GORST: As it appears that the Board of Intermediate Education are able to specify the portion of result fees which is paid out of the local taxation grant, that portion will not, for the future, be treated as endowment by the Science and Art Department.

  TEACHERS' PENSION FUND (IRELAND).
  MR. KNOX: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury when the Report of the Committee on the Irish Teachers' Pension Fund will be published; and whether the Committee considered the question of the desirability of making compassionate grants of the same kind as were made out of the Estimates before the Pension Fund was established?
  MR. HANBURY: The Report of the Committee and the Treasury Minute upon it were presented yesterday. Up to the Act of 1879 compassionate grants were made out of the Estimates to two sets of teachers—those who retired on account of ago and long service and those who broke down in health at an earlier age. From 1879 pensions have, as a rule, taken the place of gratuities in the case
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  of retirement from age or long service, and gratuities have been reserved for cases of retirement from ill health. Both the pensions and the gratuities have been charged on the Teachers' Pension Fund. A few teachers, however, who did not come within the terms of the Act, have received gratuities instead of pensions on retirement for age or long service; and the charge for these is still borne on the Estimates, and will continue to be so borne. The Committee considered the question mentioned by the hon. Member so far as regards the existing gratuities on retirement by reason of ill-health, and recommended a modification of the system which will be found in Paragraph 10 of the Report.

  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND).
  MR. JAMES BRYCE: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate when he will be able to state the sum of money which he will propose to be applied for educational purposes in Scotland, the basis on which it is to be calculated, and the method in which it is to be applied for those purposes?
  THE LORD ADVOCATE: I hope to be able in the course of next week to move a Resolution for the introduction of a Bill relating to education in Scotland, and will take that opportunity to deal with the matter referred to in the Question.

  POSTAL REFORM.
  MR. HENNIKER HEATON: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he could give the probable date when the valuable postal reforms promised by the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be brought into operation? ["Hear, hear!"]
  MR. HANBURY: The extension of rural post deliveries must be a work of time, and the reduction of the foreign and colonial rate must depend upon the decision of the Postal Union Congress, and in any case could not be brought into operation until 1898. The Postmaster General hopes to bring the other changes into operation on Jubilee Day. [Cheers.]

  EARTHQUAKE (WEST INDIES).
  MR. J. WILSONasked whether the Secretary for the

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  Colonies bad any information as to the earthquake in the West Indies?
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I observed in the newspapers statements that an earthquake had taken place in the West Indies, and that there was some serious loss both of life and property in some of the English islands. I telegraphed to the Governor and I have received the following reply:—"In, answer to telegram of May 3, no reports of casualties in the colony"—that refers to the whole of the Leeward Islands—"but loss of life and property in Guadeloupe," which is one of the French islands.

MOTIONS.
  FISHERIES (IRELAND) ACTS AMENDMENT.
  Bill to amend the law relating to Fisheries in Ireland, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Seton-Karr, Mr. Tomlinson, Mr. Dane, and Mr. Roche; presented, and Read the First time; to be Read a Second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed.—[Bill 216.]
  JURORS' EXPENSES.
  Bill to provide for the payment of the expenses of Jurors attending Assizes and Quarter Sessions, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Lloyd Morgan. Mr. Wharton. Mr. Abel Thomas. Mr. Hutton, and Mr. Howell; presented, and Read the First time; to be Read a Second time upon Wednesday 19th May, and to be printed.—[Bill 217.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  HABITUAL OFFENDERS AND ADULT REFORMATORIES.
  SIR CHARLES CAMERONrose to move:—
  "That, in view of the increasing ratio of habitual offenders and misdemeanants in our prison population, the inadequacy of the existing law to deter or reform them, the cost involved in their repeated imprisonments, and their demoralising influence upon the community, this House considers the institution of adult reformatories for their special treatment, as recommended by the recent Departmental Committee on Habitual Offenders (Scotland), to be a matter deserving the early attention of Her Majesty's Government."
  He said that the existence of a mass of petty criminals in the community was a source of great demoralisation and danger, for it was from the ranks of these petty misdemeanants and offenders that the army of more desperate crime was constantly recruited. This sub-
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  ject had attracted the attention of the departments concerned with the administration of the law, and in 1894 two departmental Committees were appointed to investigate the subject, one by the then Home Secretary, of which the right hon. Member for West Leeds (Mr. Herbert Gladstone) was Chairman, and the other by the Secretary for Scotland, Sir George Trevelyan, over which he himself had the honour to preside. The English Committee was directed to inquire into a number of matters of prison administration in England, and among them was the question of the prison discipline of habitual criminals, while the Scotch Committee had its attention directed primarily to the question of the alleged increase of habitual offenders, vagrants, beggars and inebriates in Scotland, and the inadequacy of the existing law for dealing with them, and was invited to make suggestions for reforms calculated to deal with the evil. The result of this Scotch Committee's investigations showed that there had been an increase in the number of habitual offenders within the five years preceding the Committee's appointment, the years 1889 to 1894—as indicated by the number of persons sent to prison ten times and upwards in one year. The number had increased by 14 per cent. There appeared to have been an even larger increase of habitual criminals in England, and as showing the futility of the present system for reclaiming offenders, the English Committee summed up the result of the 1893 figures in a table, from which it appeared that of persons committed for the first time 30 per cent, returned to prison, for the second time 48 per cent, returned to prison, for the third time 64 per cent., for the fourth time 71 per cent., and for the fifth time 79 per cent. On the strength of these facts the English Committee declared that when a prisoner passed into the habitual class, prison life, subject to the sentences now given, lost its terrors as familiarity with it increased, and that such sentences on old criminals and on persons habitually drunk and disorderly were almost altogether ineffective. The laws and administration in Scotland were different, but the Scotch Committee came to precisely the same conclusion as to the utter inadequacy of the present

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  system to deal with the evil. They said:—
  "One result of the diversity of the law regarding petty offences in Scotland, and the still greater diversity in the method of police administration, is that it affords an exceptional opportunity of judging as to the comparative efficacy of a number of different systems for the regression of the class of offences with which we are called upon to deal. It was therefore most significant that with one accord the wit nesses connected with the administration of the law and police throughout Scotland testified as to the inter inadequacy of any of the systems adopted to cope with the evil of the habitual offender."
  While these I we Committees, working independently of each other, arrived at the same, conclusion as to the increase of offenders and the inadequacy of existing methods to deal with or reform them, what was more hopeful was that both Committees were agreed at all events as to the principle of the remedy that was to be applied. Both recommended the establishment of adult reformatories. The English Committee made rather more complex recommendations than the Scotch. They proposed the institution of a Government penal reformatory, and that the Court should have power to commit to this reformatory offenders above 10 and under 23 for periods of not less than one year and up to three years, and that the Secretary of State should have power to transfer prisoners under 23 from prisons to the penal reformatory if satisfied that the treatment there would be more suitable, Referring to the large class of habitual Criminals not of the desperate order, who live by robbery and thieving and petty larceny, and who run the risk of short sentences with comparative indifference, they suggested that a new form of sentence should be placed at the disposal of the Judges, by which these offenders might be segregated for long periods of detention, during which they would not be treated with the severity of first-class hard labour or penal servitude, but would be, forced to work under less onerous conditions. They further suggested that prisoners sentenced primarily for drunkenness should be specially treated in prisons or parts of prisons set apart for them. The Scotch Committee also suggested adult reformatories, or, as they preferred to call them, "labour settlements," as the best means for solving this question. It appeared to him
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  that their plan was simpler than the other, while it embraced all the recommendations and requirements made by the English Committee. Their proposal was the institution of labour settlements, where habitual offenders and petty criminals could be subjected to prolonged detention, put to productive labour, so that as far as possible they might become self-supporting, and have inculcated habits of industry and self-reliance, and from which they could get licensed so as to get accustomed to liberty before their final liberation. The Committee also suggested that in these settlements the persons detained should be afforded the opportunity of earning a gratuity for work on a more liberal scale than existed in the prisons, with the view of enabling them to earn sufficient money with which they might emigrate or go to another part of the country where they might obtain a fresh start in life. In these settlements the most complete system of classification of inmates could be carried out. The younger could be separated from the older, and as to those offenders in whose ease drunkenness formed the primary factor, they would be subjected to treatment calculated in the highest degree to break their habit. They might under the system of classification be dealt with separately, but, in any case, they would be under medical supervision, they would be employed in the open air, and trained in the habits of abstinence, industry, and discipline, and he thought they would thus be placed in a better position for the ultimate repression of the drink habit than if they were shut up in a prison engaged in indoor work. The Scotch plan, therefore, seemed to cover all the suggestions of the English Committee, and he had ventured to bring it before the House, because the recommendations were due to a Committee which included amongst its members a gentleman so thoroughly conversant with the whole system of prison administration in England and Scotland as Colonel M'Hardy, the present Chief Commissioner for Prisons in Scotland. The Scotch Committee worked out their scheme in great detail. They thought it could be carried out at almost no expense to the National Exchequer, and with the hope of bringing about a large ultimate saving. What commended it to

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  him was that it was not punitive but reformatory. ["Hear, hear!"] They surrounded their proposal with safeguards which, he thought, would render it impossible that any but incorrigibles could come within its scope. There appeared in Scotland to be more urgent necessity for facing this problem than in England. In Scotland the local authorities were most anxious that something should be done, for in every town apparently there were a hundred or more habitual offenders who gave the police considerable trouble. In proportion to the population the number of persons annually imprisoned in Scotland was nearly 2½ times as large as the corresponding number in England. Whilst here a proportion of 5½ persons to 1,000 of the population went to prison every year, the proportion in Scotland was 12 to 1,000 of the population. This must not be taken as indicating greater depravity on the part of the Scotch people. The ratio of convicts sent to penal servitude was practically the same in both countries. The ratio of persons convicted on indictment was slightly in excess to what it was in England, but that was due to no more than the system of public prosecution which universally prevailed north of the Tweed. The difference, in numbers arose from the cases dealt with summarily in Scotland—those of drunkenness, breach of the peace, assault, petty theft, vagrancy, begging, and solicitation. Such cases were prosecuted by the Procurator Fiscal, and the greater number were dealt with under local Police Acts, which were more stringent than the Police Acts in, England. The comparatively trivial nature of Scottish crime was shown, by the fact that the average sentence in Scotland was barely half as much as in England. In 1891, of the 48,000 persons imprisoned in Scottish prisons, 33,000 were cases of drunkenness, breach of the peace, and petty assaults. It was curious, and it was a fact not known to those who had not studied the habits of habitual drunkards, that the number of habitual drunkards, pure and simple, that came before the Police Courts was comparatively small. The Committee, in making their proposal, did not make any special recommendation as to the treatment of habitual
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  drunkards. They thought that no better treatment for them could be devised than prolonged confinement, in places where they would be deprived of drink, have healthy work, and be, of course, under medical supervision. He had shown the House that the present system of short sentences was absolutely useless. Would long sentences be of any more avail? The Departmental Committee thought they would not. Within 20 years the length of sentences had been halved, from 30½ to 15½ days. The opportunity for re-committals had increased, but the number of them had gone on steadily decreasing. In the vast majority of cases much less than the maximum sentences were inflicted, and where exceptional penalties had been sanctioned it was found that they were never inflicted. What was wanted was not longer sentences, but a different system of dealing with habitual offenders. Another question was, weir these habitual offenders susceptible of reformation? He was happy to say that both Committees held that they were not incorrigible, and the English Committee was especially hopeful as to the possibility of reforming the more juvenile offenders, though it did not despair of the case of the older and more hardened. The Scotch Commit tee took much the same view. In Scotland by far the larger proportion of habitual offenders were women. They were 2½ times as numerous as the men, the explanation probably being that a single false step might land them in an unalterable career; but there existed among them widespread and remarkable desire to reform. The Scotch Commission interviewed a large number of women in gaols and refuges, and reported that in many cases the stories were very sad. They went on to say:—
  "The sacrifices to which many of these women submit, in their effort to escape from their wretched existence are convincing proof of their earnestness of purpose. In the Magdalene Asylums, in which so many of them find refuge, they voluntarily undergo close confinement for periods of 12 to 24 months, labouring hard at laundry or other work, and, in many cases, supporting by their toil the institutions in which they are immured, their monetary remuneration, postponed to the end of the term of voluntary confinement, amounting to £3 a year, including the value of their outfit. This they do in the hope of being restored to the paths of honest labour."

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  And they added:—
  "It does seem a pity that so many girls and women should in our gaols be submitted to a treatment which appears with each committal but to render them more reckless and abandoned."
  The proposal of the Committee was that when a person was imprisoned three times within 12 months and was again charged, he should be remanded to the Sheriff, who should be authorised to inflict upon him imprisonment without the option of a tine and to decide whether he should lie classed as an habitual offender. If he considered he should, he would order his name to be inscribed on a register, and inform him that, if he was charged so long as his name remained on the register, he would be attain brought before the Sheriff, who would again punish him, and in addition order him to be sent to an adult reformatory for not less than 12 or more than 30 months. Referring in their proposal, the Committee said:—
  "The proposal which we submit aims not at increasing punishments but reducing them, and its object, based on many years' experience of a similar system in the treatment of youthful delinquents, is to safeguard society from the injury and annoyance which it at present suffers at the hands of habitual offenders, and with the minimum amount of compulsion and restraint by industrial training and discipline to restore as many as possible of them to the ranks of law-abiding citizens. With this object we have endeavoured to shape our proposal so as to avoid initial expense, and avail ourselves to the utmost of existing agencies, parochial and voluntary."
  They proposed to utilise as homes fur these persons poor-houses, many of which could be set free by judicious combination, and disused prisons. There were many prisons round which there was certain amount of Government land available for being worked by the inmates. Many habitual offenders were physically unlit for labour, and gravitated between the prison and the poor-house, and gave rise to an immense amount of trouble and expense to the local authorities. The Committee were repeatedly implored to suggest powers to detain for a considerable period this class of persons. What they proposed in. the ease of the habitual offender who was physically unfit to be relegated to the labour settlement was that the sheriff should order his confinement in a poor-house, where he would be
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  treated under rules sanctioned by the Secretary for Scotland. He thought that if a man had been sent to prison four times within a year, it showed that he was an habitual offender, and that some strong steps must be taken in respect of him. The Committee proposed that four committals within the year should stamp a person as an habitual offender, and if that figure were adopted it was estimated that 1,800 persons would be dealt with within the year, 500 males and 1,300 females. Some of those the sheriffs would acquit, in some cases sentences would be suspended, and the remainder would be declared habitual offenders. That declaration would suffice in itself to pull up a considerable number of them. In Glasgow in the olden days it was the custom to turn away a large number of persons arrested for drunkenness. In 1873 54,000 persons were arrested, and 30,000 were discharged without being brought before the magistrates. But the magistrates ordered a change; they ordered that no person should be dismissed without cither leaving a pledge with the police or being brought before them, and after that system had been in vogue for two years the arrests for drunkenness fell from 54,000 to 36,000, a diminution of 37 per cent. The Committee felt justified in believing that the risk of a long confinement and enforced labour would have a very deterrent effect upon a considerable number of offenders; indeed, they calculated that not more than 900 would be sent to the labour settlement. They estimated that this operation would diminish the prison population of Scotland by 25 per cent., and that when it came into full effect there would be a saving to the State in the expenses of the prisons of something like £10,000 a year, and they proposed that with that sum the Treasury should endow the scheme. They believed that that, together with the labour of the person dealt with, would nearly suffice to make up the entire cost of the scheme, but any slight deficiency there might be they suggested should lie made up by the class of offenders themselves. An enormous proportion of prisoners in Scotch prisons were committed there in default of the payment of fines. A man might be fined 40s., or in default of payment be committed to prison, for four weeks. The man might have 35s. in his pocket, but he would be

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  obliged to serve the whole of the four weeks unless he could raise the extra 5s. The Committee recommended a combination of fine and imprisonment. For instance, they recommended:—
  "That in all cases in which a prisoner is committed to prison in default of the payment of a fine, the prisoner should be released at any period of his detention, not solely on payment of the whole fine imposed as at present, but on the payment of such proportion of that fine as the number of days' imprisonment still to be undergone bears to the entire sentence of imprisonment in default of payment."
  It was estimated that if this plan were adopted the tines paid in prisons would amount to between £7,000 and £8,000 a year. But there was another fund which the Committee thought might be treated as security in case of any deficit, and that was the £25,000 a year which local authorities received in the shape of lines from offenders. In the Committee's opinion the Government should, find the money required for the initial expenses, which they estimated at £15,000 or £20,000, but that they suggested should be handed back by instalments. Considering, however, the large sums recently given to England without similar disbursements in Scotland, the Exchequer might be a, little more generous and give a grant which would enable the scheme to be carried out without having recourse to any novel proposal. The estimates he had given were those of practical men. The scheme held out every prospect of success for the reformation of a large number of habitual criminals, while it would rid society of pests which were a source of demoralisation and danger. He would like to see the experiment tried all over the kingdom, but if financial or other considerations precluded the Government from entering upon an experiment on so large a scale, he urged upon them the desirability of at once trying it in Scotland, where there was a cut and dried scheme before them which could be tried with the most cordial co-operation on the part of the prison authorities and the local authorities.
  DR. FARQUHARSONsaid he rose, to second the Resolution his hon. Friend had moved. He and his hon. Friends had some slight hope that something would be done, because they knew the Home Secretary was sympathetic in this class of questions, and he had no doubt the Lord Advocate
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  would prove himself no less so. The criminal classes were largely constructed by their surroundings; by the varied conditions which made it very difficult for them to get back to a good life once more. The result of inquiry and reflection convinced him that it was their duty to help these poor people, who of alt classes were the most helpless and hopeless, and at the same time the most mischievous, not only destroying the reputation of the locality for sobriety and for absence of crime, but becoming active centres of demoralisation to the young, and, indeed, to the old. He thought the problem was not so difficult as it might appear at first sight. In every large town there was to small knot of what they might call the professional criminal class, who committed practically all the crimes. There wore from 100 to 500 people who were oscillating perpetually between the poor house and the prison, going round and round like a stage army, centres of nuisance wherever they were, and giving a, very false idea of the amount of crime in any particular locality. Many of these people committed their crimes under the influence of drink, and if they could get rid of them in a semi-permanent way they would clear the moral atmosphere, and make localities more peaceful and restore their credit for decency and orderly life. The present system had entirely broken down. Short sentences were useless, and long sentences were often worse by hardening and stereotyping the people subjected to them. It might be better if we could remove these unfortunate people to some lethal chamber, for many of them would be a great deal happier dead than alive. But that being impossible, we must consider some method of getting them out of the way, and he thought his hon. Friend's proposal, by removing them from their bad life and their wretched associations and surroundings for a reasonable time, and by shutting them up and employing them in good useful remunerative work, was the best and the only chance they could give them.
  Notice, taken that 10 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members not being present—
  The House was Adjourned at Ten Minutes before Five of the Clock till To-morrow.