Commons Sitting of 9 July 1897

QUESTIONS.

  COCOA BUTTER.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is able to state the amount of revenue obtained during the twelve months ending 30th June I897, by the Customs Duty of 1d. per pound placed last Session upon the importation of the foreign manufacture known as cocoa butter; if the duty has diminished the quantity imported in the period in question compared to the previous twelve months; and if he is possession of any
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  information as to the effect the imposition of the duty has had upon the home manufacture of butter from the cocoa bean for confectionery and other purposes?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir MICHAEL HICKS BEACH,): The revenue obtained by this duty has amounted to £3,004 from August 7, 1896, the date on which the duty took effect, to June 30. There are no statistics of the importations of cocoa butter prior to the imposition of the duty, but so far as can be ascertained by inquiry of the trade the quantity of foreign cocoa butter imported has increased rather than diminished, probably owing to the fact that the entire business of the manufacture of cocoa and chocolate has been in a very active condition during the last eight months.

TEACHERS' (IRELAND) PENSION ACT, 1879.
MR. T. M. HEALY: I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what was the gain to the Treasury since the Irish Teachers' Pension Act 1879 was passed owing to the retiring gratuities being thrown on the pension fund, and what did such gratuities amount to in the then preceding 18 years; (2) what was the loss to the teachers in the last 22 years owing to the commission on school books, c., previously enjoyed by them, being stopped by the Treasury; and (3) is it the case that teachers are now more numerous and more highly classed than in 1879?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: As the hon. and learned Member has put these questions to me rather than to the Minister more directly concerned, I will endeavour to answer them from such materials as are at my disposal. (1) The gratuities referred to amounted, on the average of the nine years 1871–80, to £6,823 per annum. I have not the figures for earlier years. For the 16 years 1880–96 they averaged £938 per annum. So the saving referred to may be taken at £6,000 per annum. It was partly in consideration of this past saving that I agreed to ask Parliament to vote an

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annual sum in aid of the pension fund, which sum for the present year is £18,000. (2) I presume this question to refer to a system introduced in 1863, and abolished, with the concurrence of all the Departments concerned, in 1876, whereby a commission was allowed to teachers on the value of school books sold by them. I have no information as to the amount of such commission during the 12 or 13 years for which it lasted, but it appears to have been £3,500 in the last year, 1875–76. Any loss to the teachers by its abolition was far more than made up by increases to their salaries about the same time. (3) I believe that the numbers of teachers have sensibly increased since 1879, and I find that their average incomes have increased by more than 30 per cent., entirely from public funds.

IRISH MAIL SERVICE.
MR. T. M. HEALY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he is aware that the acceleration of the mails has led, in Dublin and neighbouring towns, to decreased postal facilities; by how much has the time for posting for morning mails in pillar boxes been abridged in Dublin itself; will he explain why no notice was given to the citizens, who could previously post up 4 a.m., that 1.15 a.m. is now the hour; have the proper labels been provided, notifying the new hours on the Dublin boxes; what do the Department gain by this deprivation of pre-existing facilities; is he aware that towns like Swords, which used to get their Irish letters at night, now only receive them next morning, while their English letters are delivered as usual every evening; and would it be possible not to withdraw pre-existing facilities, when inaugurating an accelerated mail service?
*THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. R. W. HANBURY,): The Postmaster General is aware that the alterations in Dublin and the neighbourhood consequent on the acceleration of the English mails rendered it impossible in some cases to avoid the disturbance of facilities to which the public had been accustomed. The time of posting in the early morning in pillar boxes, which was formerly from 3.30 to 4 a.m., has been
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abridged by periods varying from two and-a-half to four hours. An alteration in the time was necessary owing to the earlier departure of the provincial day mails: and, repeated experiments having shown that very few letters were posted after midnight, the present hours were adopted as being the most convenient for the arrangement of the duties of the staff. Apart from this there is no gain to the Department. The public were duly informed of the alteration by notices exhibited at the various post offices, at the clubs and hotels, as well as through the Press. The new notice plates for the letter boxes were ordered as soon as the hours of collection were finally settled and they will be issued without delay. Letters can still be posted at the General Post Office up to a short time before the dispatch of the mails. With regard to the effect of the acceleration on towns like Swords in the neighbourhood of Dublin, it should be explained that, previous to the acceleration, letters sent by the down night mail trains from Dublin reached such places in time for delivery by postman the same night, but the later departure of those mails by 50 minutes consequent on the later arrival in Dublin of the up day mails has made it impossible to continue that arrangement. Where possible, however, arrangements have been and are being made, for sending down the English day mail letters and such Dublin local letters as may be posted in time, by earlier trains, the letters being delivered by postman the same evening.
MR. T. M. HEALYasked whether he was to understand that there would be a rearrangement that would include such towns as Swords.
*MR. HANBURY: I think with regard to the towns outside Dublin, some rearrangement might be made such as I have indicated in the last paragraph of my reply.
MR. T. M. HEALYasked whether that would include all the towns within a certain radius of Dublin, like Swords.
*MR. HANBURY: I cannot say positively, because I cannot say what all the towns may be.
SIR THOMAS ESMONDE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, what would be the cost of sending the English mails to Killarney

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and Tralee in the morning viâ Mallow; what representations have been made to the Great Southern and Western Railway upon the subject by the Post Office; and, for what price have that railway company offered to do the work?
*MR. ANBURY: Several communicatsons with the Great Southern and Western Railway Company, written and verbal, have taken place respecting the desire which has been expressed for a day mail train to Killarney and Tralee viâ Mallow in connection with the accelerated service from England. The company have stated that they have no intention of establishing such a train for passenger purposes, and the payment which would be warranted for the mail service is too trifling to affect the question. The company have not therefore been asked for a price for the conveyance of the mails in this particular instance, but in another case 1s. 10d. a mile has been mentioned as a reasonable figure. This rate for a train in each direction between Mallow and Tralee, would represent a payment of £3,500 a year, whereas the letters to be benefited would warrant an additional outlay of only £130.
MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, will he consider the advisability of establishing a mid-day collection and delivery of letters in Coossdoney, county Cavan; and is he aware that this could most conveniently be done, as the midday trains which run from Dublin to Cavan and back again to Dublin, conveying the mails from Killshandra and Arva, stop at Crossdoney railway station; moreover that this mid-day collection would cause letters to be delivered in Dublin the day on which they are posted, and that the delivery would cause letters which reached Cavan from Dublin at 11.30 a.m. to be delivered at Crossdoney at 2 p.m. instead of the next day?
*MR. HANBURY: The question of establishing a mid-day collection and delivery of letters at Crossdoney, county Cavan, has been inquired into. The hon. Member accurately indicates the arrangements by which the accommodation desired might be afforded, but it is found that the letters are few in number and would not justify the expenses
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involved. The existing service is already carried on at a loss to the revenue. The Postmaster General regrets that in these circumstances he is unable to meet the wishes of the hon. Member.

TITHE MAP (DENBIGHSHIRE).
MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been drawn to the difficulty which has arisen between the Rector of Llandegal, Denbighshire, and the parish council in reference to the custody of the tithe map; whether, seeing that the tithe maps are, under the Tithe Commutation Act 1836, to be kept with the public books, writings, and papers of the parish, a parish council has the right to direct, under Clause I7, sub-section (8), of the Local Government Act 1894, that the tithe map be deposited in a place of safety and accessible to the parishioners; and whether he will state whether the appeal to the county council referred to in the same section extends beyond the selection of a suitable place by the parish council for the custody of such documents?
THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. H. CHAPLIN,): I have no information as to the particular case referred to except that which has been furnished to me by the hon. Member. It appears to the Board that the tithe maps are, under the Tithe Commutation Act 1836, to be kept with the public books, writings, and papers of the parish, and that the sub-section referred to in the Question therefore requires that they shall either remain in their existing custody or be deposited in such custody as the parish council may direct. If there be any difference as to whether these documents shall continue in their existing custody or should be deposited in some other custody in accordance with the directions of the parish council, the question may be referred to the county council for determination. The appeal to the county council under the sub-section would, it appears to me, apply not only to the custody of these maps, but to the question as to the access to them.

QUEEN'S DIAMOND JUBILEE.
MR. H. KIMBER: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether there is any reason why the Jubilee medal, proposed to be conferred upon provincial mayors and Scottish provosts, should not also be conferred upon the chairman of the metropolitan district boards and of analogous bodies, seeing that many of the metropolitan districts are more populous and have a higher rateable value and area than many provincial boroughs.
*MR. HANBURY: My right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Treasury yesterday stated that there is no proposal to confer the medal upon the gentlemen mentioned by the hon. Member.

MUZZLING ORDER
MR. C. E. SCHWANN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the number of convictions for infringement of the order for muzzling of dogs, for the last four or five years respectively in England?
*THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir MATTHEw WHITE RIDLEY,): I cannot give the hon. Member precisely the information he asks for, but I may quote the numbers given in the judicial statistics of persons proceeded against for offences generally in relation to dogs, a heading that includes, besides infringments of muzzling orders, infringements of certain statutory requirements as to keeping dogs muzzled or otherwise under proper control. The number of persons so proceeded against in the years 1893 to 1895 were 3,539, 9,265, and 31,434, of whom respectively 2,952, 7,803, and 27,527 were convicted. No doubt the great majority of the proceedings were for infringements of muzzling orders.

CORK POST OFFICE.
SIR T. ESMONDE: On behalf of the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. MAURICE HEALY) I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether the sorting staff of the Cork Post Office have recently presented a petition asking for a re-arrangement of their hours of night duty: whether,
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inasmuch as under the sorting system the night duty lasts from 6.30 p.m. to 5 a.m. (and sometimes when an American mail arrives to 6 a.m.), with a break of three hours from 11 p.m. to 2 a.m., this interval not being computed as a period of work, and inasmuch as these hours are somewhat worse than those in force prior to the recent acceleration of the mails, the Postmaster General will take into consideration that the interval from 11 p.m. to 2 a.m. cannot be availed of by the stall either for rest or recreation; and that no suitable apartment is provided in the post office where the interval can be spent; whether he is aware that a grievance of a similar character exists in the parcel office; whether in the Limerick Post Office recently a similar grievance has been redressed by a re-arrangement of the hours of night duty; and whether the prayer of the petition, which proposes a re-arrangement of hours which would enable the staff to work continuously from 9 p.m. to 4 a.m., will be acceded to?
*MR. HANBURY: The petition referred to has been received by the District Surveyor who will submit it to headquarters in due course. The hours of duty in the sorting office at Cork are substantially as stated in the Question, but the interval between 11 p.m. and 2 a.m. is available for rest, as there is a retiring room which can be used by the staff. I am informed however that the officers reside, on the average, within about ten minutes' walk of the office. A re-arrangement of the duties has recently been made, experimentally, with the object of bridging over the midnight interval in some cases. This arrangement, which depends on combining the duties of sorting clerks and telegraphists, will, if found successful, be further extended as the number of officers who are qualified in both branches of the work increases, and it is hoped that by degrees a large proportion at least of the dual attendances between 9 p.m. and 4 a.m. will be done away with. A revision of the duties of the staff at Limerick was carried into effect some time ago and the break in the night attendance no longer exists there.

NAVAL PENSION (MICHAEL SAUNDERS).
SIR T. ESMONDE: On behalf of the hon. Member for Cork, I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty, (1) with regard to the case of Mr. Michael Saunders, of Evergreen Road, Cork, who has twice recently applied for the Greenwich Hospital Age Pension, having attained the prescribed age of 55 years in 1892, whether he has ascertained that Saunders suffers periodically from the effects of sunstroke with which he was attacked while on duty serving on H.M.S. Rattlesnake, on the West Coast of Africa, in the year I864, during the Ashantee War; (2) whether in the natural course of things it is usual to grant this pension at the age of 55; and (3) whether, as Saunders is now 60, it will be granted to him?
THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. W. E. MACARTNEY,): This man was medically surveyed in May 1896, and the medical officer stated as follows: —
"He had a slight attack of sunstroke when in Ashanti many years ago, and gets frequent attacks of giddiness since then. With this exception, he is in very fair health. He is 60 years of age, and is an active man for his age. As he has no illness, he can contribute materially to his own support."
As his case was not as pressing as those of other applicants, he was not granted the pension in July 1896, when he last applied. The answer to the second paragraph is in the negative. Saunders will be 60 years of age in October next. He will be medically surveyed prior to that date with a view to the award of Age Pension.

BOARD OF TRADE OFFICE (CORK).
SIR T. ESMONDE: On behalf of the hon. Member for Cork, I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will explain why the Board of Trade refused to grant a sworn inquiry into the case of John J. Ahern, late freeholder and clerk at the Board of Trade Office, Cork, recently dismissed on a charge of insubordination on unsworn testimony; whether certain counter-charges made by Ahern were forwarded to the Board or investigated; and whether an inquiry on oath will now be granted into the
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charges made against Ahern and the counter-charges made by him?
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. RITCHIE,): The officer referred to in the Question was a "tapeholder" employed by the week. As the result of an inquiry by the Board of Trade Principal Officer in Ireland, his conduct was found to have been seriously unsatisfactory, and it was decided to dispense with his services on a week's notice, in accordance with the terms of his employment. The countercharges made by Ahern were also investigated, but, with one exception of an unimportant nature, they called for no action on the part of the Department. I do not propose to direct any further inquiry to be held in the matter.

REGULATIONS OF RAILWAYS ACT, 1889.
MR. J. CALDWELL: On behalf of the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. J. G. WEIR) I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade, in view of the fact that there are many points in the bye-laws of the London and South Western and other Railway Companies which are in contravention of Section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, will he state whether the Board of Trade have yet communicated with the various railway companies on the subject, and whether any date has yet been fixed for issuing the revised bye-laws?
MR. RITCHIE: No, Sir; as I explained to the hon. Member in reply to a previous question, there are many points in the bye-laws which require consideration, and the Board propose to deal with them as a whole. I can assure the hon. Member that the matter will not be lost sight of, but the Department must be allowed to select a favourable opportunity for opening negotiations with the companies.

COUNTY ASYLUMS.
MR. J. CALDWELL: On behalf of the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, if he will state the result of his inquiry in regard to the classification of patients in county asylums whose maintenance is either

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wholly or partly recouped by sums received from relatives; and, whether it is intended to continue to classify such patients as paupers.
*SIR MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEY: The inquiry I have made confirms the supposition, which I expressed in my previous answer on this subject, that no real grievance exists. The present classification is based on the definition of the word ''pauper" in the Lunacy Act of 1890; and I do not see sufficient reason for introducing the legislation which would be necessary if any alteration were to be made.

BRENNAN TORPEDOES.
MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War, if he will state whether any of the £265,320, expended up to the:31st March last in connection with Brennan torpedoes, has been paid for the invention, and whether any money has been paid for royalty; and, if so, will he state the amount of the respective payments?
THE UNDER SECRETARY of STATE FOR WAR (Mr. BRODRICK,): As was stated in this House in considerable detail on the 3rd May 1894, the purchase money for this invention was £110,000. No royalty has been paid or is payable.

OUTRAGES AT POONA.
MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India, having regard to the reply given by Lord Sandhurst as to certain allegations relative to the methods adopted at Poona for the suppression of the plague, and more particularly as to the statement that, in the case of the inspection of the inmates of houses, there was no possibility of indignity to native women, owing to the presence of lady doctors and other ladies with search parties, will he state the number of lady doctors at Poona, and their names?
*THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Lord GEORGE HAMILTON,): I am informed by the Bombay Government that the lady doctors engaged with search parties were: Miss Bernard, M.D.; Miss Crawley, L.R.C.P.; Miss Dids, hospital assistant; Mrs. Goodall, a Parsee with some medical qualifications. Other ladies were:
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Mrs. Taylor; Miss Kelly; Mrs. Fernandez; Mrs. Balubai Awte, Hindu; Mrs. Bhamabai Awte, Hindu; Miss E. Barnard; Miss Tarkhad, Hindu; Miss M' Intosh, the Hong-kong nurse, when not employed as a nurse. As far as I can learn, there is only one other lady in Poona with medical qualifications.
SIR M. M. BHOWNAGGREEsaid that, arising out of the question, he wished to ask the noble Lord whether, besides lady doctors, many other ladies did not, together with independent gentlemen, at Bombay, Poona, and other plague centres, accompany those search parties which went to private houses to perform the work of inspection and other duties in connection with relief measures?
*LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: Yes, Sir; I believe that such assistance was given; and I understand that the Government encouraged such assistance. ["Hear, hear!"]
MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been directed to a letter of the late Mr. Rand, dated the 9th April, 1897, stating that women in Poona would not in the future be examined in the public streets for plague spots without the consent of the male members of their families; and, whether, having regard to this statement in this letter, lie still adheres to the declaration that no charge of indignity inflicted on females by the officials of the Indian Government at Poona has been substantiated?
*LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: The hon. Gentleman in his question asserts that the late Mr. Rand stated in a letter dated April 9th, 1897, that women in Poona were examined in public streets, for plague spots. The late Mr. Rand made no such statement in his letter of the 9th of April. ["Hear, hear!"] What he said was that no inspection of any females should hereafter take place in the streets if they or their families objected. Upon this word ''inspection" the hon. Baronet, the Member for Banffshire chose to put the interpretation that it meant stripping women in the public streets in order to detect plague spots, and currency to this interpretation has been given by the Press. The

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following telegram from the Government of Bombay disposes of this legend:—
"Street inspection mentioned in Rand's letter of April 9th last, arose thus:—When searching was first instituted, women in many houses remained in dark rooms, where it was impossible to see whether they were ill, so householders were desired to cause their women to come into open place, such as reasonably light room or courtyard or street, merely that it might be seen whether they looked ill. If there appeared reason for actual medical examination, it was conducted with every regard for decency, not in public, and in case of women never by anyone but a woman, unless no objection was raised to examination by a commissioned medical officer. Allegations that women were stripped in streets to detect Plague symptoms is malevolent fabrication." [Cheers.] "The native gentlemen and native doctors must have been cognisant of street inspection, as of all that went on."
This being so, I adhere to the answer I previously gave to the effect that in the opinion of the Bombay Government no charge had been substantiated that indignity was offered by the search parties to native ladies. [Cheers.]

IRISH FISHERIES
MR. G. MURNAGHAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, whether he is aware that during the month of April there were some 40 French boats with 20 to 24 men in each amounting to 900 men fishing off Crook-haven, that two Manx Companies employ between there and Kinsale 140 boats and about 1,000 men, and that there are several hundred fishermen from France, Isle of Man, and other places who find remunerative employment around the Irish coast, while many of the native population can find no work to do; and as Irish fishermen are too poor to purchase large-sized boats and proper outfits without which the business cannot be worked successfully, will he consider this matter with a view to placing the natives in a position to compete on fairly equal terms with the French or Manx fishermen?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR,): It is the fact that a
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number of French boats fished off the south-west coast of Ireland in the spring of this year, and Crookhaven, which is one of the many ports in this district, has been made the head-quarters of the Co-operative Manx Fishing Company, much to the benefit of the locality. A considerable number of large fishing vessels are owned by native fishermen in this part of Cork, the majority of which have been purchased by means of loans issued through the Inspectors of Fisheries or Congested Districts Board. If the hon. Member will look at the last-published reports of the Fishery Inspectors and Congested Districts Board he will find that the total number of loans advanced on the recommendation of the former to December 31,1895, for the purchase of boats and for other fishery purposes, was 474, amounting to £10,062, in addition to which 619 loans for £9,515 were issued by the Congested Districts Board down to March 31,1896.

KINSALE PIER.
BR. COMMINS: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury (1) whether it has been brought under his notice that the Board of Works constructed the Pier of Kinsale under the provisions of the Kinsale Harbour Act, 1880, in which the entire cost was estimated at £16,000; that they let the work to a contractor who undertook it for £13,879, but that the final cost of the Pier was £21,852, and the anticipated indebtedness of these authorities increased from £6,500 to £11,267, repayable in 25 years; that the practical rating valuation does not exceed £5,000; that the difficulties have been aggravated by the measures taken by the Board of Works to enforce payment; and that the fishery, to encourage which the Pier was built, has declined since 1885; and (2) does the Government propose, by the conversion of the debt to one of a longer term, or otherwise, to do anything to assist the ratepayers and enable them to discharge the debt, together with their sanitary and other duties, without crippling their resources and entailing the further decay of a once prosperous town and its trade?
*MR. HANBURY: (1) The figures given in the first paragraph are approximately

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correct. A very large proportion of the increase on the existing Estimate was due to the increased price put upon the land by the local owners. The question of reduction of interest must be considered in connection with any Bill dealing generally with the rates of Local Loans. (2) Any extension of the period or reduction of the debt, will be duly considered when the Kinsale Harbour and Town Commissioners show a bonâfide desire to recognise their obligations. At present even the rate struck in May 1896, has not yet been collected.
MR. FLYNNasked, whether there was any evidence of a desire on the part of the Commissioners to avoid payment?
*MR. HANBURY: Very great pressure has been brought to bear upon them, and my view is that they rather desire to avoid the obligation.

CALCUTTA RIOTS.
MR. SAMUEL SMITH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he has any information to show that 600 was a low estimate of the number of persons killed in the recent riots in the City of Calcutta?
*LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: So far from 600 being a low estimate of the persons killed in the recent riots in the neighbourhood of Calcutta, the real number seems to be seven ascertained deaths. The following is the latest telegraphic communication that I have received on the subject, dated;July 8th—
"Your telegram of yesterday. Government of Bengal reports number of killed during riots seven— "[Cries of "Oh !"] —"estimated number wounded about 20, of whom four or five have since died, the bodies being disposed of by their relatives. Calcutta reported quiet to-day, and Mahomedan leaders scrupulously exerting themselves to allay excitement. Mill hands quiet."
MR. SAMUEL SMITHasked the noble Lord whether The Times correspondent had not put the number at 600, and whether other estimates did not put it as high as 1,500?
*LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: I do not know where the hon. Gentleman gets his information from, but I have given him the figures from the authentic report.

GRENADIER GUARDS.
MR. JAMES HOZIER: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War what the strength of each of the three battalions of the Grenadier Guards is at present; what the new establishment of each of the three battalions is intended to be; and whether it will be possible, even by taking all the recruits from the depôt, to raise the 1st Battalion of the Grenadier Guards to the strength required for Gibraltar without drawing on the 2nd and 3rd Battalions of the regiment?
MR. BRODRICK: Omitting the regimental stall, the strength of the three battalions of the Grenadier Guards on July 1 was respectively 970, 733, and 688. In addition there were at the depôt 73 men who have hitherto been counted on tile strength of the battalions. The establishment is intended to be 978, 802, and 802, and 73 at the depôt. Each battalion as it embarks will be raised to 978; while the battalion returning home will be reduced to 802. From the above figures it will be seen that the first battalion is numerically at the strength for embarkation, but as every battalion at home lots certain men in its ranks who cannot be embarked for foreign service, there must necessarily at each embarkation be some transfers.

RECRUITS (FOOT GUARDS).
MR. HOZIER: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether the standard of height for recruits for the Foot Guards has been reduced during the last six months?
MR. BRODRICK: On May 8 the standard of the Foot Guards was reduced from 5 ft.81/2 in. to 5 ft. 8 in.. for men over 20 years of age, and 5 ft. 7 in. for recruits who are younger.
DR. FARQUIEARSONasked whether the reason for the reduction of the standard was that there had been an increased difficulty in obtaining recruits during the last six months?
MR. BRODRICK: Whenever there is an increase in the number of the Army the standard is reduced. The standard now adopted is that which has been in force in the Guards for many years.

STERLING LOAN (INDIA).
MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been drawn to the memorandum written by Mr. J. H. Sleigh, manager of the Bank of Bombay, showing the large economy which would be secured by taking up a sterling loan in this country; and whether, in view of the proposal of the Government of India to take up a rupee loan of four crores in India, he will consider the desirability of adopting the course suggested?
*LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: I will refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on 2nd July to a precisely similar question.

EARTHQUAKE (ASSAM).
MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he has received any official information as to the extent of the destruction by the recent earthquake in Assam of the property of the Welsh Presbyterian Foreign Missionary Society, which has stations in the Khasia and Jaintia Hills and in Sylhet; and whether he has any information as to the position of the missionaries of that society in their present calamitous circumstances?
*LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: No, Sir; I have no information concerning the injury done to the property in question. All telegrams received by me regarding the results of the earthquake have been published; tidings by mail have not yet arrived from Assam. The Viceroy's telegram of June 22 said:
"Reassuring news from Sylhet district, where damage and distress caused by earthquake are less than was supposed."

POST OFFICE SAVINGS BANK.
MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: On behalf of hon. Member for the Waltham-stow Division of Essex (Mr. S. WOODS), I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster-General, whether he will offer facilities to the paper keepers of the Post Office Savings Bank to be transferred to other Departments, where they would have hopes of advancement, as, after serving on an average 29 years, they find that, owing to the distance they reside from the City,
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it would be impossible for them to get to the office at the time required, viz.: 4 a.m., and are therefore unable to accept the offer of a split duty in the Circulation Department; and, will he grant a Return showing how many promotions have taken place on the minor establishment in the Savings Bank Department during the last ten years?
MR. HANBURY: The Postmaster-General regrets that he cannot propose to the officers referred to any facilities for transfer to other Departments. The Return asked for is being sent to the hon. Member by post.

WESTPORT GUARDIANS LOAN.
DR. ROBERT AMBROSE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the fact that the Law Department of the Irish Board of Works claim the sum of £15 10s. 9d. from the Westport Guardians under the heading "Public Health Service;" that the Westport Guardians deny any service rendered under such heading; and, whether the Board of Works are within their right in making such claim; and, if so, under what authority?
*MR. HANBURY: It is gathered from the form of the Question that the claim is believed to be for services rendered by the solicitor, or for costs. This is a misapprehension, probably due to the fact that a new clerk has been appointed to the Guardians. The demand is for an instalment of £I4 3s. 1d. on a Public Health Loan and an instalment on an Emigration Loan of £1 7s. 8d., which instalments were due on 1st May last, and should have been paid at latest on 1st June. Being in arrear, payment is demanded over the solicitor's name.

CULLODEN HOUSE.
MR. J. McLEOD: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether steps will be taken, by means of a Supplementary Estimate or otherwise, to preserve for the Scottish people the historical relics now having a habitation at Culloden House, and which are advertised for public sale?
*THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. GRAHAM MURRAY,): The Secretary for Scotland has directed the attention of the responsible authorities to the approaching dispersion of the Culloden Collection, and the question whether any of the relics are of a character suitable for acquisition on behalf of the nation will receive due consideration.

CHINA AND GREAT BRITAIN.
CAPTAIN NORTON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give any information with regard to new arrangements recently concluded between Her Majesty's Government and the Government of China other than that already in possession of the House?
THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. G. CURZON,): I am afraid that the information which the hon. Member desires could hardly be given within the limits of a Parliamentary answer. But he will find it in the text of the new Anglo-Chinese agreement regarding the Burmese frontier, which will be presented before long.
*SIR CHARLES DILKEasked whether the right hon. Gentleman could say when the arrangement would be made public?
MR. CURZON: No, I cannot give the exact date. We are waiting for the production of the maps, which will show the difference between the old arrangement and the new. We hope that it will be before the end of the present Session.
*SIR C. DILKEasked whether the arrangement did not refer to matters other than those concerning the Burmese frontier?
MR. CURZON: Speaking from recollection, my impression is that it does.

BRITISH ARMY IN INDIA.
CAPTAIN PIRIE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether the system of enlisting Eurasians (the descendants of Englishmen, Scotchmen, and Irishmen in India) into the British Army in India, as carried on in past years, may now, in view of the strongly expressed desire of
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this class of Her Majesty's subjects, receive more distinct encouragement from the Government?
LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: The question has been more than once carefully considered by Her Majesty's Government, who are not prepared to make any change in the regulations under which this class can enlist in the British Army.

DISAPPEARANCE OF A TRAVELLER.
MR. J. HOWARD: I. beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to a letter in The Times of the 2nd instant from Miss Cooper, and a further letter in that of the 8th instant from Mr. Thomas Hardy, writing from Geneva, relating to the disappearance under mysterious circumstances of Mr. James Robert Cooper, of Reigate, on his way from Zermatt to the Riffel Alp; and whether, as both writers express surprise that no public notice had been taken of the event, he will cause inquiries to be made with a view to elicit, if possible, some explanation of the matter?
MR. CURZON: Instructions will be sent to Her Majesty's Minister at Berne to furnish a Report on this subject.

CRETE
MR. JOHN DILLON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information as to the alleged preparations of the Mahommedans of Candia to attack in force the camp of Archanes in the neighbourhood of Candia; and whether the Admirals and Military authorities have received warning of the preparations for this expedition?
MR. CURZON: On the 7th instant Her Majesty's Minister at Athens heard from the Greek Minister for Foreign Affairs that the Cretan refugees at Syra were apprehensive of an attack on Archanes by Mussulmans collected at Candia for the purpose. Sir A. Biliotti has, however, reported by telegraph' that no Mussulmans had collected in Candia with the object of attacking the village, but that the cutting off until lately of the water supply which had undermined

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the sources near Archanes had offered a very strong provocation to the Mussulmans to attack the place. Such an attack had, however, been averted by the measures taken by Colonel Chermside, who had given frequent warnings of the possibility of trouble both to the Turkish authorities and to the insurgents.
MR. DILLONasked the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs, whether there was any truth in the statement that the foreign Admirals had decided, and published their decision, that for the future all columns marching into the interior of Crete shall be strengthened and take cannon with them, and that any attack on the part of the insurgents shall be visited with severe reprisals?
MR. CURZON: I have made inquiries in regard to the subject mentioned by the hon. Member, and I find that neither at the Foreign Office nor at the Admiralty has any information been received on the matter.
MR. DILLONsaid the statement had been made in all the London journals, and he should repeat the Question.

WICKLOW HARBOUR.
MR. W. FIELD: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he can state if he will introduce a Bill this Session to enable the funds to be obtained to repair Wicklow Harbour?
MR. HANBURY: Yes, Sir, as I have already stated in this House, a Bill dealing with the subject is in course of preparation, and will be introduced as soon as ready if I can be assured that it will meet with no Opposition.

DUBLIN METROPOLITAN POLICE.
MR. W. FIELD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, inasmuch as the police being a civil force are under the control of the municipal authorities in Great Britain, he will introduce a Measure to give the Dublin Corporation similar authority over the Dublin Metropolitan police?
MR. GERALD BALFOUR: No, Sir, I am not prepared to introduce a Measure such as suggested in this Question.

TECHNICAL EDUCATION (IRELAND).
MR. FIELD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Government will proceed with the Measure which proposed to endow a system of agricultural and technical training under the control of an Irish department; whether the Government will consider the desirability of including the promised provisions for technical instruction in the Bill already introduced, instead of dealing with it by a subsidiary Bill; and, whether the sum provided from Imperial funds in this year's Budget will be so utilised without delay?
MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The Agricultural and Industries (Ireland) Bill has already been withdrawn, and it was publicly stated by the First Lord of the Treasury that the proposed Measure dealing with technical education in Ireland would not be proceeded with.

FEVER OUTBREAK (BELMULLET UNION).
MR. FIELD; I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) whether he is aware that, in February 1897, the medical officer, Dr. Cleary, reported to the guardians of Belmullet Union an epidemic of fever, and asked that proper sanitary precautions should be taken; (2) whether the Government will give a grant to relieve the distress and provide the nourishment necessary for the islanders of Inniskea; and (3) whether, as the communication between the mainland and the island is by open boat, it will be improved and facilitated during this exceptional period?
MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The facts are as stated in the first paragraph. The fever cases referred to occurred on the mainland where, I regret to state, fever is seldom entirely absent, owing to the insanitary condition of many of the dwellings of the people. The necessary sanitary precautions were at once adopted by the guardians, and the medical inspector of the Local Government Board was instructed personally to satisfy himself that all the requisite steps were taken, as well as to assist the guardians by his advice. As regards the islanders of Inniskea, relief and nourishment have already been provided for those of the

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islanders who are sick or destitute. The Congested Districts Board have placed their steamer at the disposal of the guardians mid the local officials for the purpose of communication with the island.
MR. D. CRILLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) whether he is assured that the Congested Districts Board has granted the free use of a large shed for the nursing of the fever-stricken people of Inniskea Island; (2) whether he is aware that on Monday last Mr. Charles Kennedy, a member of the Congested Districts Hoard, attended a meeting of committee of the Belmullet Board of Guardians, and offered, on behalf of the Congested Districts Board, to sell some vacant shells, at a price varying from £20 to £100, to the Board of Guardians for nursing purposes; and (3) if such is the fact, the Local Government Board will provide free hospital accommodation for the invalids of Inniskea, Island?
MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The Congested Districts Board have lent buildings on Inniskea Island to the Board of Guardians free of all cost or expense. I understand that Mr. Kennedy did not make the offer alleged in the second paragraph.

TELEGRAPHIC COMMUNICATION ENGLAND AND IRELAND.
MR. D. MACALEESE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether no direct telegraphic communication exists between the North of Ireland and the two important centres of Oxford and Cambridge; has complaint been made to the Department that messages recently sent from these places took two hours to reach Belfast; and will a remedy he provided for this?
*MR. HANBURY: The answer to the first two Questions is in the affirmative. The messages referred to by the hon. Member were multiple press telegrams of some length, and in view of the pressure of business at the time, the delay which occurred seems to have been unavoidable. The number of telegrams between Oxford and Cambridge and the North of Ireland is not sufficient to justify the establishment of direct telegraphic communication.

CAVAN AND LEITRIM LIGHT RAILWAY.
MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he has received the Report of the auditor of the Cavan and Leitrim Light Railway; whether he is aware that the directors still keep their office in Dublin at a cost of £500 to the cesspayers, who have guaranteed this line, and that the line is still unable to pay a dividend without a baronial contribution from Cavan and Leitrim; and, will he call the attention of the Treasury to this wasteful expenditure?
*MR. HANBURY: The Report was received on the 4th June. It is within the discretion of the directors of the company where its central offices shall be, and, even assuming that any additional expense is caused by the offices of the company being in Dublin instead of at one of the towns on their line, it is by no means clear that the affairs of the company, and therefore the interests of the cesspayers, would benefit by a change.

ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY
MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) whether any complaints have been received of the manner in which Head Constable Dalton, of Swanlinbar, is at present conducting the police affairs of that district; and (2) when will an officer be placed in charge of it?
MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The reply to the first paragraph is in the negative. The district only became vacant on the 1st ultimo, and an officer will be appointed to it as soon as one is available.

POST OFFICE TELEPHONE EXCHANGES.
MR. A. D. PROVAND: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether the post office paid anything, either by purchase or as royalty or otherwise, for permission to use patented instruments in the Post Office telephone exchanges; and, if so, how much was paid, over how many years and for what patents, giving the total sum paid for each patent?
*MR. HANBURY: The Post Office has not at any time purchased or paid royalty for the right to use a telephone patent. Such instruments as it required before the expiration of the patent in 1891 were all of the Gower Bell pattern, and were obtained by purchase under agreement with the holders of the patent.

OLD AGE PENSIONS.
MR. JAMES RANKIN: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he can give the House any information as to when the Committee on Old Age Pensions is likely to present its Report; and, if that Report is presented before next year, whether the Government, in view of the great interest taken in this Question, will introduce a Measure to deal with the subject next Session?
THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): I am informed that the Committee hope to conclude taking evidence next week, and report some time in the course of the autumn. I cannot say what course will be taken on the Report until the Report is in our hands. At present I have not the slightest idea what the Report is going to be.

CHAFF-CUTTING MACHINES (ACCIDENTS) BILL.
MR. R. ASCROFT: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the Chaff-Cutting Machines (Accidents) Bill, which was before the Grand Committee on Trade on Monday last, was on the following day read the Third time before copies of the Bill as amended in Committee had been supplied to Members; and, whether he will consider the advisability of altering the Standing Orders, so that Members may have a reasonable time allowed to consider Amendments made in Committee before a Bill is read the Third time?
THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend that it is inexpedient for the House to discuss the Report of a Bill from a Committee unless the Bill as amended is in their hands—in other words, until the Bill has been reprinted.
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But let me say that my hon. Friend has only to say "I object" and it is impossible for the Bill to be proceeded with after midnight.
MR. JAMES LOWTHERasked Mr. Speaker what alteration could be made in the Rules of the House to prevent the possibility of such an occurrence again.
*MR. SPEAKER: I have had some experience with reference to the process of revising the Standing Orders. It generally takes a good deal of time. The right hon. Member asked me what alteration was necessary. I must respectfully decline to draft an amendment to the Standing Orders at a moment's notice.
MR. J. LOWTHER: Perhaps my right hon. Friend will undertake that. [Laughter.]
*SIR H. FOWLERasked whether the Speaker could not give directions to the Clerks at the Table not to allow a Bill to be put down for consideration until it had been reprinted. The case that had been mentioned was not the only one. It had occurred already this week. By pure chance he was able to interfere in one case in which a Bill was before a Committee one day and was put down for consideration with a large number of Amendments the next. He thought this abuse of the Rules of the House could be prevented without the necessity of any alteration of the Standing Orders?
*MR. SPEAKER: I think I should be taking too much upon myself if I gave such directions. It has always been the practice to put down these Bills for consideration as amended on their being reported to the House. They then appear among the Orders of the Day, and if they have not yet been reprinted when the Order is called on, hon. Members have sometimes brought that fact to the attention of the Chair, which generally suggests that the Bill should not be taken until the House has had an opportunity of seeing and considering the Amendments made in Committee. But this is a matter in which the House must take care of itself.
MR. PARKER SMITHasked whether, before the House considered the Workmen's Compensation Bill on Monday, the First Lord of the

1477
Treasury would have it reprinted with the Amendments that had been made?
THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURYsaid he would consult the proper authorities as to whether that could be done.

TEACHERS' SUPERANNUATION.
MR. ASCROFT: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, in view of the recommendations of the Commission on Elementary Education in 1888, and of various Committees since that date in favour of a system of State-aided Superannuation, and also of the promises made by the Government in 1896 to bring in a Bill on the subject, whether he can give any information as to the date when the Bill will be introduced?
THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: Questions on this subject have been put several times in the course of the Session and I have given but one answer which I am afraid I cannot modify.

LAND LAW ACTS (IRELAND). ROYAL COMMISSION.
JOHN MORLEYasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he was in a position to state the names of gentlemen who were to constitute the Commission to inquire into the administration of the Land Acts and Land Purchase Acts in Ireland.
MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The Royal Commission to be appointed to inquire into the procedure and practice and the methods of valuation followed under the Land Law Acts and the Land Purchase Acts, Ireland, will be constituted as follows:—
The right hon. Sir Edward Fry, formerly one of the Judges of Her Majesty's Court of Appeal, will be the Chairman.
The other Members will be Mr. Robert Vigers, and Mr. George Gordon, experts in the valuation of land; Mr. Traill and Mr. George Fottrell.
Mr. Cherry, Q.C., will act as Secretary of the Commission.
MR. J. MORLEY: I should like to put a Question to the First Lord of the Treasury in connection with this subject. He is perhaps aware that there
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has been standing on the Paper in my name for some time a notice giving the House an opportunity of expressing its disapproval of the issue of this Commission, I should like to ask whether he can arrange for a day for the discussion of this matter?
THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: The right hon. Gentleman has only just given notice of this Question. Perhaps he would put it off; in order that I may give a final answer, to this day week. It is impossible next week that I should find a day, for reasons with which this House is very familiar. May I point out to the right hon. Gentleman, however, that there has been a whole night spent already on Irish Estimates in discussing this particular Question. With a view of winding up the Session I am not of course very anxious to give days, of which there are only two left to me, to carry out what is absolutely the minimum programme of legislation. Would the right hon. Gentleman before next Friday consider this suggestion? The Vote for the Land Commission has not yet been passed; I believe I could undertake—it is only a provisional suggestion—that if that Vote were allowed to be passed in the ordinary course under the Standing Order, I would take the report of that Vote first upon the day which under the Standing Order is given to the discussion of the Report stage of Supply. It appears to me that that might meet the views of the right hon. Gentleman and would not involve the deferring of our holiday, which many of us are very desirous to have.
MR. J. MORLEY: Of course, I shall naturally give my best consideration to the suggestion which the right hon. Gentleman has thrown out. I would only put it to him that the issue of this Commission is, as he will admit, a subject of very great importance indeed, and there is a great deal to be said against taking a specific and definite matter of this kind in connection with a mere discussion on the Estimates, I think he will recognise that, but I will, however, consult hon. Gentlemen from Ireland on this matter.
MR. T. M. HEALY: With regard to the Land Commission, will the Chief

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Secretary give us the addresses and qualifications of Mr. Robert Vigers and Mr. George Gordon?
*MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I am afraid I cannot give the addresses. Mr. Robert Vigers is very well known as a land surveyor and valuer in London. Mr. George Gordon is also an eminent man in his profession; he is a native of Scotland—[Irish laughter]—and has been engaged very largely in the service of the Crofters' Commission.
MR. T. M. HEALY: Have either of these gentlemen visited Ireland in their lives?
*MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I cannot say.
MR. MACNEILL: Is Dr. Traill our eminent Orange friend of Trinity College?
[No answer was given.]

GROUND GAME ACT (EXTENSION TO COPYHOLDERS) BILL.
Second Reading upon Wednesday, 21st July.
MOTIONS
  POLLING ARRANGEMENTS (PARLIAMENTARY BOROUGHS) BILL.
  To amend the law relating to the Arrangement of Polling Districts in Parliamentary Boroughs, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Bond, Mr. Harrison, and Colonel Hughes; presented and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed.—[Bill 307.]
  POLLING DISTRICTS (COUNTY COUNCILS) BILL.
  To make further provision with respect to the Arrangement of polling Districts for the Election of County Councillors, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Bond, Mr. Harrison, and Colonel Hughes; presented and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed.—[Bill 308.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY.
  (SIXTEENTH ALLOTTED DAY).
  Considered in Committee.
  [The CHAIRMAN of WAYS and MEANS, Mr. J. W. LOWTHER, in the Chair.]

  CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES, I897–8.

    CLASS II.
    Motion made, and Question proposed—
    "That a sum, not exceeding £26,247, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of Public Works in Ireland.''
    *MR. P. J. POWERcommented on the action of the Office of Works in regard to the Waterford, Dungarvan, and Lismore Railway Company, and referred to the large sums which had been contributed by the late Duke of Devonshire on the construction and furtherance of the line. This line was opened for traffic in 1878, the share capital was £280,000, and the loan capital £113,333. This undertaking cost a great deal more than the estimate. The total cost of construction came to £478,000. The late Duke of Devonshire contributed £71,280 to the share capital of the company, as well as subsequent sums to a considerable amount. But for the enormous sums he had advanced, and the deep interest he took in Ireland and in his property there, the line would have been absolutely derelict. The County Grand Jury of Waterford pledged the county cess—a rate to which it should he remembered they did not at all contribute—to the extent of £14,000 a year. It was said at the time that this guarantee would never be called upon. But what had happened? The line had been built 22 years, and during all those years the ratepayers had been paying £14,000 a year to provide the shareholders with their dividends; a most monstrous taxation considering that the people who pay had had no voice whatever in the imposition of the tax. In the barony in which he lived the tax amounted to 11½d. in the pound, and in the adjoining barony it was 1s. 3½d. in the pound. Under these circumstances

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    he maintained, considering that the ratepayers had paid for the last 22 years £308,000 in the shape of the guarantee, and that they were still liable for another 18 years to pay this £14,000 a year, or a lump sum of £252,000, before any action was taken by the Treasury, it was only just and right that their wishes should be consulted. But the ratepayers who partly owned the line had been treated in the most extraordinary way by the Board of Works. The Board had an inspection of the line eight years ago, and the Report made by the inspector was favourable to the management of the line. In the spring of this year, however, an engineer went down without notice, went over the line and examined it thoroughly and reported to the Board. The Board was asked to give a copy of t he report of the inspection to the local directors. They refused, stating that it was a confidential document; but, they added:
    "It does not appear from the Report that the management of the line was in any sense defective, and no improvements would be suggested by a perusal of the Report."
    Nevertheless the Board communicated with Mr. Curry, the agent of the Duke of Devonshire in London, that it was their intention to supersede the local director with a director of their own, and it was only at the request of the Duke of Devonshire that this contemplated action was communicated to the local directors. It was it curious thing that if there was any fault to be found with the management of the line those who were managing it should not be made acquainted with what was wrong. Yet he had been informed that the report of the inspector was submitted without hesitation to the directors of the Rosslare and Fishguard Railway Company, who were said to be in negotiation for the purchase, of the line. The tax for the maintenance of the line amounted to 11d. in the pound on the county ratepayers of the County of Waterford, and to 8d. in the pound on the ratepayers of the City of Waterford. This tax pressed very heavily on the ratepayers of what was a very poor county. It was to avoid that heavy taxation that an Act was passed in 1883 guaranteeing from the Treasury 2 per cent. if there was a local guarantee of 4 or 5 per cent. to aid in the construction of railways in Ireland. He maintained that the ratepayers
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    of the County of Waterford should participate in the advantages of that legislation. The line in question did not differ materially front lines in various parts of the country which had been helped by the contribution from the Treasury. It might be said that there was no congested district in Waterford, but if there were no such districts in the sense of the Act there were districts which were exceedingly poor. In the Union of Dungarvan there were large districts inhabited by people whose valuation did not exceed £5, and in the Lismore Union the total number of valuations were £4,400, or which £3,200 were under a valuation of £10 a year. Then there was a great deal of waste land in the county of Waterford. The total area of the county was 461,552 acres, and no less than 123,742 acres were waste or under water, so that there was nearly a third of the county waste. It might be said that the interests of the ratepayers would be carefully looked after by the Treasury, but those who had any experience of the Treasury in Ireland could have no confidence whatever in them. After very little consultation the Treasury intended to dispose of the line to some company which the ratepayers knew very little about. He could not understand why there should be such hugger-mugger about those consultations. The ratepayers of Waterford had as large an interest in the line as the Treasury had, and the right hon. Gentleman was bound by the promise he had made to a large and influential deputation to place before the ratepayers of Waterford what his intentions were in regard to the line before any action was taken. Under the Act of 1883 the ratepayers would have been entitled to £8,000 a year towards paying their guarantee, and if the line had been constructed a few years after 1883 they would been entitled to some of the free gifts that were given from the Imperial Exchequer for the construction of railways in Ireland. He thought it was too bad that the people of Waterford should be debarred from participating in the benefits of that legislation. The Duke of Devonshire had consented to forego his entire claim of.£70,000 if the Treasury would forego their claim of £93,000. The directors of the line had met, the representatives of the ratepayers and had offered them four out of the

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    nine seats on the Board of Directors, and whatever the line earned over its working expenses.
    *DR. COMMINS, said he he wished to acknowledge the courtesy of the Secretary of the Treasury, but he thought he could show the right hon. Gentleman that he had been led astray with regard to the case of Kinsale. The Board of Works were responsible for the present impasse. They had dealt with the town as though it wished to repudiate its debts, and there was no ground for such an idea. £6,500 was to be borrowed from the Board of Works for the purpose of constructing a harbour. The Board of Works undertook to do the work, and when it was completed, in 1885, it was found that the cost was over £21,000, or more than £3,000 above their own estimates, and the debt which the local authorities had undertaken, instead of £6,500 as they expected, had been increased to nearly £12,000—a burden which had proved entirely beyond their resources. The population of Kinsale at the last census was 4,600, and the gross valuation was £5,574, while the practical valuation was £5,000, or only £1 1s. 2½d. per head of the population. The enforcement of the claims of the Board of Works had been most ruinous to the town. The rates had been made very burdensome, and nearly all the shipping had been driven from the port by the heavy harbour dues entailed by the debt. In the meantime the fishing trade had gone down. In 1885 there were 876 boats using the pier, and in 1890 there were only 91. Yet the Board of Works had exacted the arrears of the debt by appeal to nearly every court in the land, piling up large bills of costs by the way. Though £5,958 had been paid off the original debt of £12,000, the outstanding claim was only £1,000 less than the claim of 1885. A collector of Customs had been appointed, and also a collector of the port duties, under the Receiving Order of the Court. This collector did what he had never heard of being done elsewhere—instead of taking the usual bond for the payment of the dues, he had seized vessels and detained them till payment was made. The result was that captains of vessels dare not come near the port. If the Secretary of the Treasury would consider the matter he would see that this was not a question in which the
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    Harbour Commissioners or the Town Commissioners were personally concerned, for all they were trying to do was to stand between the Board of Works and the cruel pressure upon poor people who could not pay. If the Treasury would remit the whole amount of the loan, they would not be guilty of an extreme piece of generosity; at all events, he would ask the Secretary to the Treasury to do something in order to prevent the ruin that threatened the port.
    MR. T. M. HEALYunderstood there was a promise by the Irish Secretary that a settlement would be made upon this occasion with regard to the Irish railway policy of the Government. With regard to the Irish Board of Works, of course it was natural for the Irish Secretary to appoint a Scotchman at the head of the Department. The Irish Board of Works, so-called, consisted of one Englishman, one Scotchman, and one Irishman. It was in reality a branch of the British Treasury. He had long considered what ought to be done with the Irish Board of Works, and he was prepared to make a suggestion of a practical kind. There was a gentleman for some years very favourably known in this House as an obstructor. He was now in "another place," and would make, he could not help thinking, a capital head of the Irish Board of Works—he referred to Mr. Jabez Balfour. [Laughter.] Notwithstanding all the millions it had had the expenditure of, it could not point to a. single creditable undertaking. Reference had been made to the action of the Custom House officer at Kinsale, who had very harshly put in force the law against the local people, but one little thing had not been mentioned—namely, that the Government, as a reward to this officer for his stringent action, had transferred him to Hartlepool at an increased salary. Now, apropos of the Waterford, Dungarvan, and Lismore Railway, Irish Members had not much to say of the Duke of Devonshire, when he sat in this House as Lord Hartington, but if any man on the Treasury Bench would show him a letter from the Duke to the Treasury saying he was perfectly satisfied with the proposed action of the Treasury, he should be quite satisfied also. If the Duke said he was satisfied, he was quite sure a fair thing would have been done. A shark of an attorney ran a Bill through this

    1485
    House and the House of Lords saddling Waterford with a guarantee of £14,000 per annum, and the first thing the ratepayers knew of it was that they were liable for the guarantee. Lord Redesdale, in consequence of that scandal, passed a Standing Order making it impossible for any private Bill to pass without the previous sanction of the different local bodies down to the Boards of Guardians. The county had had to find that money for the last 22 years. The Duke of Devonshire provided out of his own pocket first £70,000, then another £70,000, and then again, out of his own pocket, made a line from Lismore to Fermoy. He could say that the Devonshire family had taken a real, practical, and paternal interest in the care of this county of Waterford. For every sovereign the British Treasury had spent, the Devonshire family had advanced two. Not only had they found the sovereigns, but they had provided the rolling stock. And what was the position to-day? The Shylock of the British Treasury came down and proposed to sell out the line, while the Duke of Devonshire, whose family had spent, one way and another, close on a quarter of a million on the line, was left absolutely without a fraction to show for his public-spirited enterprise. Was it not a remarkable thing that a Member of the British Cabinet should have his interests looked after by the representatives of the Irish Benches? [Laughter.] The Duke was in. the position of being a member of the Cabinet, and he could not say a word to defend his own interests against the Treasury, because his interests were those of the locality, and because he had practically made the line. One proposal was to sell the line to the Great Western Midway of England, and another proposal was to sell it to another English company which consisted of the Town Clerk of Birmingham, behind whom was the London and North Western Railway Company, and the generosity of the Town Clerk was shown in the promotion of a Bill on which the name of the Secretary to the Treasury figured in large print to deprive the local pilots of Wexford of their pilotage fees All these things had been done behind the backs of the Irish representatives. The Government urged that they were anxious for the interest of the locality. If he thought that the Town Clerk
    1486
    of Birmingham and his friends had a real plan for making a harbour at Rosslare and giving a live end to the Rossmore line he would support the scheme provided they did not get the £14,000 which the ratepayers of County Waterford had hitherto been paying. But under the Act passed 23 years ago the £,14,000 a year which the taxpayers of Waterford had been paying would he handed over to the Town. Clerk of Birmingham and his friends to further this scheme. It would be better to hand the line over to the Duke of Devonshire and the people of the locality. The least they could expect from the Chief Secretary was that he should act in the position of Devil's Advocate for Ireland against the Treasury; the right hon. Gentleman's point of view should be the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary to the Treasury. The right hon. Gentleman's point of view should be the Irish point of view, and he should try to make the most for his clients. If it was felt that Ireland was a kind of Old Man of the Sea on the back of this country he prayed the Government to lay down the burden. The Irish representatives would take over the country as a going concern. England had governed Ireland for 700 years, and except the erection of poorhouses, police barracks, and lunatic asylums he did not know what England had to show as the result of her government.
    MR. SERJEANT HEMPHILLsaid that this subject was of considerable interest to Ireland, and the incidents described by his hon. and learned Friend had created much hardship to the ratepayers of the district. Twenty-three years ago this extraordinary Act of Parliament was run through Parliament, and the effect of it was that charge of £14,00 a year for 35 years had been imposed on the ratepayers of the county and city in proportion to the particular district through which the line ran. The ratepayers had to pay 5 per cent. on the money advanced. A few years ago when he was on the Leinster Circuit he had on one ocasion to make an application to the Judge not to permit the Grand Jury to refuse to pass a presentment of £.6,000; but under the Act of Parliament the Judge had to decide that the Grand Jury of the City had no option in the matter, and if they did not choose to pass the presentment the Judge had power to

    1487
    order the money to be paid; and he ordered accordingly. Thus from year to year this state of things had been going on, and he urged that it was important to see to whom this line was to be disposed. He remembered that some years ago there was a scheme for connecting Rosslare with Wexford by rail and connecting Rosslare with Milford by a line of steamers. That scheme was strenuously advocated by himself as counsel for the promoters, with the assistance of his learned Friend Mr. Healy, and the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin (he thought) as strenuously opposed it.
    MR. CARSON: I have forgotten all about it.
    MR. SERJEANT HEMPHILLsaid his own memory was rather better. The right hon. and learned Gentleman, he recollected, demonstrated that the line would be a failure, and that Wexford would be exactly in the same position as the poor city and county of Waterford; and the Grand Jury very wisely refused to guarantee the line. Now it was suggested that this Waterford, Dungarvon and Lismore Railway was to be sold to some company connected with Birmingham, who would probably run a line to Milford and connect with Rosslare by water. But when they got to Rosslare they would have to get this line through to Wexford; and they would find the same difficulties which the engineers at the time of which he had spoken demonstrated to the Grand Jury of Wexford. They proved that the thing could not be done in effect, and if this bargain was carried out, the result would be that this wretched railway would continue to be the failure it. had hitherto been, and the ratepayers would have to be paying 5 per cent. for the next fifteen years or whatever the time might be. He trusted that the right hon. Gentleman who had the conduct of Treasury matters in that House, would take all these things into consideration; and he hoped, whatever was done, that the line would not be disposed of in such a manner as to leave no chance of relieving the ratepayers. That was his sole object in troubling the House. If the line were put up to public competition, it might be purchased by some company who would be able to work it to advantage. But in the meantime, he hoped that the
    1488
    Treasury would not press forward matters in such a way as to render it hopeless for the ratepayers to get rid of this great burden. [" Hear, hear."] There was another matter to which he desired to refer, if it was in order upon this Vote. It was a matter connected with the Richmond District Lunatic Asylum at Dublin. No doubt the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury had had his attention called to it. The Richmond District Lunatic Asylum was a most important institution, for it was the asylum for the city of Dublin, the county town of Drogheda, and the counties of Dublin, Wicklow, and Louth, all of which districts contributed in proportion to their population. It was an admitted fact that the building was quite inadequate for the number of lunatics sent there. In fact, the overcrowding was becoming a crying grievance, the excess of occupants over accommodation being something startling. The Board of Control or managers of the Asylum had lately bought a site in the neighbourhood of Dublin as a sort of auxiliary asylum, and they were also contracting to erect a very extensive building on the site, the cost of which would amount altogether to very nearly £200,000. For that purpose of course it was necessary that they should raise money. Last year the Board of Control had to contract (for the purpose of building from time to time) a loan from the Treasury amounting to some £78,000 odd. Under a recent Act the Board of Control could go into the public market and getloans on better terms than they could get from the British Exchequer, because under the Local Loans Act the Exchequer were requiring 3½ per cent. interest, whereas in the present state of the money market with Consols at 2¾, it was obvious much better terms could be obtained. What happened? They wanted to redeem the Treasury loan, and they accordingly applied to the Board of Works to ascertain what sum would be required. The Board of Works informed them that, taking the Local Loan Stock at its present price of £114, the sum of £89,613 6s. 11d. would be required to redeem the debt of £78,000. That meant, in other words, that in order to get rid of this debt to the Treasury and go into the open market the Board of Control would have to pay what would

    1489
    be in the nature of a fine of £11,000 if they wanted to raise money at a lower rate of interest. He wished particularly to call the attention of his right hon. Friend to that matter in the hope that lie would be able to see his way to accept the £78,000 at par, and not make this profit of £11,000 at the cost of the ratepayers of Dublin and the other contributory counties.
    MR. JOHN REDMONDwished to put the main facts of the Waterford and Dungarvan Railway clearly before the House. The railway, constructed under a guarantee given on behalf of the ratepayers, was worked in such a way that the ratepayers were liable to an annual payment of £14,000. They had thus already paid over £300,000, and were liable for £250,000 more. The line also Owed the Duke of Devonshire between £70,000 and £80,000, and the Treasury something like £93,000. A short time ago it became known by a mere chance that the Treasury were about to foreclose, dismiss the directors, and take the management into their own hands, and sell the line. As soon as this became known a strong opposition developed, and the Treasury were induced to postpone action until the people of the locality had time to consider the matter. During the Easter recess the question was considered by the ratepayers and the directors, and a proposal was made to the Treasury which he thought an admirable one, and one that ought to have been accepted on the spot. It was proposed that the ratepayers should in future have four representatives on the board of directors to five representing the shareholders. The Duke of Devonshire, offered to forego the whole of his £70,000 on the understanding that the Treasury would also forego their debt, as they had done in innumerable cases in other parts of Ireland. The result of t his would have been to relieve the ratepayers to the extent of £2,500 or £3,000 a year. There was a further arrangement that at the end of the period covered by the guarantee one-half of the profits of the line should go to the ratepayers only, one-half to the shareholders. The scheme was universally approved in the locality. The only difficulty was with the Treasury; and although the Duke of Devonshire—who had spent a
    1490
    quarter of a million in the locality—was willing to forego his £70,000, the Treasury refused to forego their £93,000, and their refusal was of the most, decided character. Their action was niggardly and unwise. He understood that the Treasury had not only decided absolutely to refuse the scheme, but were negotiating for the sale of the line to another company. The shareholders was one in which the rate-shareholders was one in which the rate-payers of the city and county would derive large and immediate relief from this enormous tax, and in any scheme for the sale of the line the relief of the ratepayers must be a leading feature. He joined in what had been said by the hon. Member for Waterford County, that there was a great deal of needless secresy about the proceedings which was offensive and unjust to the people most interested, the ratepayers, who had already paid three times as much as was due to the Treasury and were still liable for twice as much as was due. Was it not monstrous that the whole future of the property should be bargained away by the Treasury behind the backs of the ratepayers who had paid this enormous sum, and were liable still? The Grand Jury of the County of Waterford had passed the following resolution:—
    "Before any decision is made by the Treasury the public should be informed as to the proposals of the various railways offering to acquire the line, so that the county and city of Waterford may be enabled to express opinions on the subject."
    The City Grand Jury had also resolved that—
    "This Grand Jury, representative of the ratepayers of the city of Waterford, views with indignation the grasping and selfish attitude adopted by the Treasury relative to the W.D.L.R. The ratepayers of this city and county have already paid more than three times, and are still liable for more than twice, the amount advanced by the Treasury. The ratepayers are, therefore, by far the largest creditors, and their interests should receive the first and fullest consideration. We, therefore, demand that no sale or transfer of the line be made until the views of the ratepayers have been ascertained. We refuse to recognise that Mr. Hanbury has any moral or equitable right to he sole arbiter of this, to us, vitally important, matter, and we urgently request the assistance of all Irish Members to resist and defeat the arrangement by which the Treasury proposes to sell the line without competition

    1491
    to a group of English financiers and professional company promoters totally ignorant of the views and interests of those most deeply affected."
    In addition to these telegrams, he had received numerous others from important representative gentlemen in the City and County of Waterford, protesting against any sale whatever behind the backs of the ratepayers. Of the relative merits of the two schemes of sale he was not able to speak, because he did not know anything about them. But in the City of Waterford, the feeling was strong against the sale to the Rosslare Company, and as between the two schemes of sale Waterford would favour the scheme for sale to the Great Western. The interest of the Great Western would be to promote the trade of Waterford, but the interests of the other company would naturally be to transfer trade to the new port of Rosslare. What he complained of was that those most interested were kept in the dark. The Secretary to the Treasury told an influential deputation which waited upon him on this subject that he was anxious to consult the views and safeguard the interests of the localities concerned. But how was it that those who represented these localities were absolutely in the dark as to the terms. If the right hon. Gentleman could not state them publicly, let him do so privately. He asked him to reconsider his rejection of the scheme of the directors and shareholders of the company and the ratepayers. If he still maintained his former attitude, he (the hon. Member) claimed that before any sale took place the localities and their representatives should have an opportunity of considering the terms and expressing an opinion upon it. This might be the last opportunity of raising the question on the Estimates. An opportunity would be available on the Appropriation Bill, and he hoped That before the Appropriation Bill the Secretary to the Treasury would give full information of the details of the schemes, and not come to any decision upon them until there had been an opportunity of discussing, them in this House. If the negotiations would continue to the end of the Session and the Secretary to the Treasury did not expect to be in a position to discuss them on the Appropriation
    1492
    Bill, he asked the right hon. Gentleman to promise, before coming to a decision when the Session was closed, that he would consult, in Ireland or in London, the Members representing the various districts concerned, and such leading gentlemen from the localities as they might desire to bring with them. It would be monstrous if, after the Session was over, the sale of this property was effected to one of these English companies without consulting the representatives of the people most largely interested.
    *THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. R. W. HANBURY,)said he would first of all reply to the question raised with regard to the loans made to the Richmond Lunatic Asylum. There were general rules fixed with regard to the repayment of all such loans, and those rules applied more severely in England than in Ireland. The authorities of the Asylum had power to borrow in the open market, but they found they could obtain better terms from the Treasury, and were anxious to borrow from it accordingly. The rule was that every £100 borrowed should be repaid at the market price of the Local Loans Stock, which was now about £113. But the Treasury were considering whether to allow the Asylum Board to borrow for a short period and repay at the rate of £100 instead of £113, and that he thought would be considerate treatment. With regard to the remarks of the hon. Member for South-east Cork respecting Kinsale Harbour, no doubt the estimate for the contract was largely exceeded, partly owing to the fact that the local land owners required more for their land than originally estimated, and partly owing to the subsequent failure of the contractor. There were several ways of dealing with this matter. In the first place there arose the question of the reduction of the rate of interest, and upon that he might say that he thought there was some possibility of introducing a Bill dealing with local loans during the present Session, by which it was possible that some relief might be. given. He also admitted that there was something to be said for a reduction in the amount of the loan; but he was under the impression that the Kinsale Town. Commissioners were desirous to avoid all responsibility. If the Town

    1493
    Commissioners were ready to meet the Treasury as the Treasury was ready to meet them, the difficulty would to a great extent be got over; but the Treasury did not want to deal with a body of Commissioners who desired to shirk their legal responsibility. With regard to the question of the Waterford and Dungarvan Railway there were, as he, understood it, two distinct issues. The first was, ought the Government to forego its loan altogether, and secondly, if not, what was the best thing to be done in regard to the loan. He had already announced that the Government were not willing to forego the loan, though they might be willing to forego the large amount of accumulated interest, which amounted to an extra £30,000 or £35,000. It had been said that they ought to forego the loan in the interest of the ratepayers of the district, and the hon. Member for Louth referred to the fact that some twenty-three years ago the scheme for this line was rushed through Parliament. There was a. great deal of truth in the hon. Member's account of the history of that Measure, but the House must recollect that when this large loan was made to this Company, one of the elements for the consideration of the Treasury was that the guarantee under the Act was assured by the ratepayers of the district.
    MR. T. M. HEALY: Only for the interest.
    *MR. HANBURYsaid that might be true, but he thought that would go towards the repayment of the Government interest.
    MR. T. M. HEALY: That is contrary to the fact.
    *MR. HANBURYsaid that after all the Treasury had not made this a matter of pounds, shillings, and pence. It should be remembered that they had a very good offer indeed front an Irish Company, the Great Southern and Western, which was many thousands higher than anything they were likely to get from an English Company; but that offer they refused simply in the interest of the locality. One would have gathered from one or two speeches that had been made that the amounts hitherto paid had gone into the Imperial Exchequer.
    MR. SERJEANT HEMPHILL: I did not mean to convey that.
    *MR. HANBURY: No; but anybody not conversant with the facts would have thought so. After all, why should this amount be totally or even partially remitted? Parliament had drawn a distinct line between the various districts in Ireland which ought, and which ought not to receive a free grant for railways, and this district was not one which ought to receive direct support from the Treasury in that way. The ratepayers gave a guarantee in the interest of the locality because they thought that the district would be greatly benefited by having a good line running through it. What was wanted in this district was efficient management, and a thoroughly good line running through it. Nothing had yet been concluded, and he had always promised that nothing should be concluded until he was able to put himself in communication with those Members principally interested. Two classes had to be considered in this matter, the Imperial taxpayer and the local ratepayer, and they ought, in his opinion, to be considered pari passu. The Treasury had already to a great extent foregone the interest of the Imperial taxpayer by refusing a very high offer for this line. He did not think it was right to state the exact figure of the offer, but it was £20,000 or £30,000 more than they were likely to get anywhere else. Up to a. few days ago the only other Company tendering was the Rosslare Company. They hoped to get Parliamentary powers to make a line running through from Rosslare to Cork, which would be of enormous benefit to the district. Against that there was the fact that that line would be very unpopular in Waterford. A few days ago the Great Western Company approached the Treasury with the object of being allowed to tender—not for purchasing the line, for the Treasury had never proposed to sell it, lock, stock, and barrel, but for purchasing the Treasury's interest in the line, by which neither the shareholders nor the ratepayers would be in a worse position in the future than they were now in. His idea was that as regarded a sale, the ratepayers would be greatly better off. The position then was this. He felt that it was very necessary that there should

    1495
    be as much competition in this matter as possible, and he was very glad when a second company came in, and at once agreed that no definite offer should be accepted up to Thursday morning next, so that both companies should have an opportunity of tendering. He felt that it was not very likely that, so far as the interest of the Imperial taxpayer was concerned, there would be any great difference between the offers of the two companies. Therefore they were left with only the interest of the locality to consider. Even in the locality there were contending interests to consider. There was the whole county of Wexford to consider, and the district through which the line would run, whose interests would directly clash with the City of Waterford; but he felt that in a matter of this sort, when one of the chief interests at issue was the interest of the locality, the Treasury ought to do as much as they could to gauge the views of the locality, and he would be perfectly willing to put himself in communication with those who represented the ratepayers, or those Members who represented the locality. He should not feel himself bound by their opinion, but he would consult them very fully in the matter, so that by concerted action they might be able to arrive at a decision which would be the best for the locality. He need hardly say that the opinion of the Duke of Devonshire in his character not only of a large shareholder, but as one who had behaved very handsomely with regard to the Lismore line, would carry great weight.
    MR. J. REDMONDasked whether the Members representing the localities interested would have an opportunity of consulting with the right hon. Gentleman and of hearing what the rival schemes were. He also wished to know whether he could bring with him one or two gentlemen from Waterford who would put before the right hon. Gentleman the views of the ratepayers?
    *MR. HANBURYpromised that as soon as the final tenders had been received, he would communicate with hon. Members connected with the district. He would be glad to hear their views and also the views of other gentlemen as the hon. Member suggested.
    MR. T. M. HEALYobserved that the right hon. Gentleman had said that he
    1496
    only intended to sell the Treasury interest in the line, but surely anyone who bought that interest would be able to sell the line as a whole, and whether the Government sold the line or the incoming mortgagee sold it was pretty much the same thing. The whole transaction demanded careful consideration, and there was no reason why the business should be carried through with such dispatch. When a tender had been accepted it would be necessary for the successful company to come to Parliament, and of course a Bill could not be passed for the purposes of the line this Session. Any scheme would probably be opposed, so that the Parliamentary proceedings could not be disposed of at once. He thought they were entitled to know who were the capitalists who were going to finance the Rosslare project. He remembered how, after a private Bill passed through the House some five or six years ago, the scheme which it sanctioned broke down for want of capital. Before the line now under consideration was sold, they ought to be certain that the people who wished to acquire it were in a position to do all that ought to be done in the interest of the locality concerned. Who constituted the Rosslare Company, and what was the amount of their capital? There was reason that he could see why this transaction should be concluded by Thursday next.
    MR. HORACE PLUNKETTalso declared that there was no reason why the transaction should be pushed forward as an urgent matter, and pointed out that deliberation was desirable, because the whole railway system of the south of Ireland might be affected by the scheme sanctioned by the Treasury. The Dublin, Wicklow, and Wexford Railway Company were promoting a line which might be seriously damaged by this Rosslare project, and an opportunity ought to be given to the company's representatives to be heard. In regard to the policy of the Government respecting loans for railways in Ireland, he had understood his right hon. Friend to say that Parliament had drawn a. broad line of distinction between congested districts and districts which were not congested, and that loans which could be made in the case of the former could not be made in the case of the latter. But he believed

    1497
    that Parliament departed from that principle last year, when half a million was advanced. Did not Parliament then refuse to restrict the application of the money to congested districts?
    MR. GERALD BALFOURexplained that the principle was that in congested districts it was open to the Government to advance the whole of the money that was required, while in uncongested districts half the amount was the maximum that could be advanced.
    MAJOR JAMESONsuggested that it would be well to defer the Rosslare scheme until the promised local councils should have been set up in Ireland.
    *MR. HANBURRYexplained that he had not said that the whole transaction would be completed by Thursday next. What he had said was that two rival lines were going to tender, and that their tenders must be sent in by Thursday morning. The tenders would be considered at once, but some time must be devoted to consulting the wishes of hon. Members who represented the localities concerned. It was never contemplated that the whole thing should be disposed of next week.
    MR. POWERbeing dissatisfied with the arrangement, moved to reduce the Vote by £1,000.
    Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £25,247, be granted for the said Service."
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 90; Noes, 177.—(Division List, No. 288.)
    MR. GERALD BALFOURsaid he undertook, when this Vote was under discussion, to make a statement respecting the application of the funds provided by the Railways Act of Ireland last year. He might say at once that, although he was not responsible for this Vote, the Irish Government took the whole responsibility for the application of these funds. The responsibility had been placed on the Irish Government, to a very large extent, by the Acts of Parliament, because the Treasury could not move in connection with any scheme, or make any advance, until the scheme had been first certified by the Lord Lieutenant. Prior to 1889 the Railways (Ireland) Acts applied indiscriminately to all parts of Ireland. The
    1498
    Act of 1889 made a new departure in this respect, for under that Act a grant could not be made except in the case of a light railway which was declared by the Lord Lieutenant to be desirable for the purpose of developing fishing or other industries. Similar conditions were laid down in the Act of last year, with one rather important difference—that the Lord Lieutenant, before any steps were taken for granting State aid to any railway scheme, had to certify to the Treasury that the making of the railway under the Act was necessary for the development of the resources of the district. They had deliberately substituted the word "resources" because they foresaw that it would be desirable to open up various tracts of country, not alone for developing the industries of the district, but also for developing the tourist traffic. The second condition which the Act of 1889 contained was also repeated in the Act of 1896, and was to the effect that the Lord Lieutenant in certifying to the Treasury must certify that owing to the exceptional circumstances of the district the railway could not be constructed without special assistance from the State. The limit of the Treasury grant was fixed in one direction by the fact that an existing railway company must agree to work and maintain the line before an advance was made. The limit on the other side was fixed by the condition that the Lord Lieutenant is not to certify a railway under the Act except it was necessary for the development of the resources of the district and unless owing to the poverty of the district the railway could be constructed without special assistance. It would, therefore, be seen that in the case of a district sufficiently prosperous to provide the railway itself, or in the case of an enterprise of so hazardous a nature that no railway company would agree to work and maintain it, the Treasury would be unable to advance money under the Act. There was an important and novel clause introduced by the Government into the Act of last year, by which advances could be made, not merely in the case of a railway, but also in the case of a steamboat line or for establishing communications by means of coaches, cars, or other vehicles. The Irish Office had taken very considerable

    1499
    advantage of that provision in the proposals they had made to the Treasury. The only railway scheme that had yet received the approval of the grand jury was that of a narrow gauge railway from Buncrana to Carndonagh in the county of Donegal, a distance of 18½ miles. The grand jury of Donegal had made a presentment for £5,000 in aid of that line, which represented the assistance required under the Act to be given by the landowners and local authorities interested in the line. The Lough Swilly Company had agreed to work and maintain the railway free of cost to the county; but, of course, under the provisions of the Act, if the railway company became bankrupt the working of the line would fall upon the county. The railway ran almost wholly through a congested district, and he believed it would be of great service in promoting the cottage industries of that district. In addition to this railway the Government had also laid proposals before the grand jury of Donegal for the construction of a railway between Letterkenny and Burtonport, a distance of 50 miles. South Donegal had already been amply provided with railways under the Act of 1889, and this line, which he trusted the Grand Jury would see their way to approve of, would serve the northern and western part of the county, which had hitherto received no assistance in that way. In addition to those proposals the Government had, at an earlier period, offered to provide the funds for the construction of a line from Ennis to Scariff, and also to restore the derelict line between Portumna and Parsonstown. Unfortunately the Clare Grand Jury had refused to make a presentment in the case of the first railway, and it had fallen through; and as neither the landowners in the district between Portumna and Parsonstown nor the Great Southern Railway Company were prepared to find the balance necessary for the reconstruction of the second line that also had fallen through. That represented the railway portion of the scheme of the Government. Coming to the steamer portion of the scheme, the Government proposed to subsidise a steamer communication on the Shannon between Killaloe, in the county of Clare, to Dromod, in the county of Leitrim, a distance of over a hundred miles. This communication would be for passengers
    1500
    only, and would of course be principally of use in promoting tourist traffic; but it was an exceedingly convenient line of communication, as it cut all lines of railway passing from east to west, and increased very largely communication in the centre of Ireland. It did not come into competition with existing lines, which was always a matter that was most carefully attended to in any scheme put forward by the Government. This line was to be run by a company who would provide the steamers and also intended to build hotels at Dromod, Killaloe, and at other convenient points on the route. The service would commence on August 1st. The subsidy of the Government would last for seven years, and it was provided that the service of steamers was to last for 12 years. In regard to both coaches and steamers the Government had invariably adopted the principle of subsidy. The Government hoped that the lines of service which they proposed to help for a considerable number of years would ultimately become self-supporting; and if not they should at all events know at the end of the seven years whether it was worth while to continue such services. The Government also proposed to provide steamer communication from the terminus of the Midland Great Western Railway at Achill Sound across Black-sod Bay to Belmullet. It was, however, possible that owing to certain difficulties they might not be able to carry out that scheme, and if so they would fall back upon a steamer service between Sligo and Belmullet. The people of Belmullet not unnaturally were anxious for a railway from Achill Sound, Killala, or Ballina, to Belmullet; but the cost of constructing such a railway would be too great, and it was very questionable besides whether it could be made to pay. The cost of the steamer communication would not be one-fourth the cost of the construction of the railway; and besides they did not find the Midland Great Western Railway Company prepared to say that if the Government constructed and equipped such a line they would work and maintain it in perpetuity. He himself was strongly of opinion that even with a free construction it would have been impossible to have worked the line without a subsidy, and a subsidy in addition to free construction was not

    1501
    permitted by the terms of the Act. The distress which had unfortunately prevailed in the Belmullet district the Government had endeavoured to meet to some extent by beginning already with the pier and the approaches necessary in the immediate neighbourhood of Belmullet, and even if the original scheme were not carried out as he hoped it would be—in any case the labour expended upon this work would not be wholly wasted. In addition to the two steamer services he had mentioned, the Government also proposed to subsidise a steamer service for seven years, between Tarbert and Kilrush, at the mouth of the Shannon, and this last proposal was really part of the larger proposal to open up to tourist traffic the whole of the western part of Clare. From Killarney to Listowel there was already a railway, and it was proposed to establish a coach service between Listowel and Tarbert, a distance of 12 miles, running in connection with the principal trains from Killarney, and a steamer running from Tarbert Pier to Kilrush on the West Clare Railway. He ought rather to correct this statement, for the service was actually in existence, having been started on June 1. There was already a service of coaches to Lisdoonvarna, and at Lisdoonvarna it was proposed to establish a line of coaches to Ballyvaughan. There was at present between Ballyvaughan and Galway a steamboat service running two or three times a week, and the coaches between Lisdoonvarna and Ballyvaughan would run in connection with that service. There would thus be opened up a route all the way from Killarney to Connemara, either by steamer, by rail, or by coach; and he should hope as the district was an extremely tranquil one, that this would be the means of attracting a large number of tourists from this country who might be induced to leave their money there and carry away with them pleasant recollections of their experience. [Laughter and "Hear, hear !"]The hon. and learned Member for North Louth had asked him whether he could state the sum it was proposed to advance in connection with these schemes. For the reasons he had explained, it would be inexpedient to do that, but he might mention that the total expense of all time schemes he had outlined would be something short of
    1502
    the £500,000 which Parliament provided in the Act last year. Of course it was necessary to leave a margin for safety, and he believed they had left one which would prove sufficient. He trusted that when they came actually to carry he schemes to completion they might still find they had got a few thousands of pounds over which they could use for some other purpose. [" Hear, hear!"]
    MR. T. M. HEALY: Has the money been bearing interest ever since?
    MR. GERALD BALFOURreplied that it did not bear interest under the terms of the Act, because it was not advanced by the Treasury until the necessity actually occurred, and he did not suppose it was in. fact raised until the necessity actually occurred. He trusted the scheme he had explained to the Committee would be regarded as satisfactory by hon. Members representing Ireland. ["Hear, hear !"] He had done his best to pick out the most useful schemes he could. He had been over most of the ground himself, and he had spared no pains to come to the wisest conclusion he could [Cheers.] Whether he had succeeded or not was another matter, and it only remained for him to express his appreciation of the co-operation which he had met with at the hands of the chairman and officers of the Board of Trade, and the great energy and ability which they had brought to the carrying out of the very heavy additional labours which this Act had thrown upon them. [Cheers.]
    MR. T. M. HEALYwas quite sure the right hon. Gentleman had done his best in the matter, and the complaint he had to make was not as to the mode in which the money had been expended, but that two or three things had been left undone. There was, for instance, a necessity for completing the little bit of a canal from Lough Mask to Bullinrobe in the county Mayo, which would be the means of opening up a district of the most picturesque character, and would also for a comparatively trifling expenditure bring the population of that district within touch of the railway system. Considerable work had been done in the way of making a quay and so on, and the amount required to carry the work to completion would be very small. He thought the Government ought to undertake to finish the project, and expressed

    1503
    the opinion that on a true construction of the Act of last year, they had the power to do so. He thought the whole of the steamer proposals were excellent, and would be productive of great benefit. Dealing with the fact that the whole of the railway work had been confined to one particular district of the country, he fully admitted that Donegal, with its poor population, was entitled to the utmost consideration, and he had not one word to say against spending the whole of the money for railway construction in that county. He hoped, however, the Government would, upon some other occasion, see their way to consider the condition of the poor people of Belmullet, and have a railway constructed there which would benefit them far more than the steamer service. He quite agreed that a broad-gauge railway would probably not pay even if constructed free, but a narrow-gauge railway, in the construction of which the people of the district could take a part would, once made, at all events, pay expenses. ["Hear, hear !']
    MR. T. D. SULLIVANfully appreciated the spirit of the proposals of the Government in the schemes which had been laid before the Committee. He felt that, to some extent, they were exceptional, and that similar proposals were not made to the House in reference to other portions of Great Britain. But the case of Ireland was exceptional. Every man acquainted with the history of Great Britain and Ireland knew that the latter country had been kept back in the race of prosperity and civilisation, and now, when more liberal ideas were beginning to obtain, Ireland was entitled to exceptional treatment in these matters. Such was his plea, and this was justification for any proposal of an exceptional nature in regard to Irish affairs which might now be placed before the House of Commons. Donegal was one of the most backward, most necessitous, parts of Ireland, and was entitled to exceptionally generous treatment at the hands of the House. He quite recognised that the present Government and the present Chief Secretary seemed to appreciate these facts and circumstances, and he tendered his thanks on behalf of the poor congested districts in the west of
    1504
    Ireland. If Ireland had a native Government these districts would receive exceptional treatment, and at last the House of Commons was beginning to recognise that it ought to do for Ireland what an Irish Government would do for its own people. As between schemes for mail steamers and railways and other projects he would say nothing, he declared no preference for one scheme more than for another, he simply maintained the broad principle that the west of Ireland in its necessitous condition had a claim for special treatment. He tendered his thanks to the Chief Secretary for the manner he proposed to deal with these poor districts, and he would do all he could to encourage and support the propositions of the Government.
    MAJOR JAMESONsaid, as his constituency was among those which would come in for a small portion of the good things promised by the Chief Secretary, he would like to say a few words on the subject. There was one proposition the right hon. Gentleman laid down in regard to the advances for making light railways he heard with regret. The limiting condition was practically this, that unless the Government could get another railway company to take up the light railway they would not advance the money for construction. He would like to point out to the Committee that why light railways could not be effective and economically constructed in Ireland was because the Irish railway gauge was 5 ft. 3 in. This gauge was fixed, as most Irish arrangements were by an English Parliamentary Committee sitting at Westminster, probably no better and no worse than those which sat in the present day, but the manner in which that Committee arrived at the Irish gauge was by striking an average between the broad and narrow gauges. So there was imposed on Ireland the 5 ft. 3 in. gauge, which would not allow of the trunk lines taking over the narrow-gauge trains. If the gauge had been fixed at 4 ft. 8½ in. it would have been perfectly possible to have made light railways of that gauge, and to have run the traffic directly on to the trunk lines, saving the cost, time, and labour of transhipment. The only objection that could be raised to that was that the weight of the engines used on the trunk lines would prevent these engines being used on the light railways,

    1505
    but that was not the case, for the rate of speed required on the light railways would not necessitate the same weight of engines as on the trunk lines. But it was held to be a necessary condition that unless a trunk line company would nurse the light railway, the Government advance on behalf of the poor congested districts would not be forthcoming. It was a hard condition to attach to the offer of assistance to improve means of communication in the congested districts. With regard to the running of steamers between Tarbert and Kilrush, he hoped the Chief Secretary would see his way to expenditure for the widening and deepening of Kilrush Harbour. Going down the Shannon from Kilrush to the mouth of the river, he, on the last occasion, saw 25 fishing smacks busily engaged in fishing, but none of them were Irish—23 were French and two were Welsh. A mine of wealth for the western counties of Ireland was lost for lack of a small part of the money England owed to Ireland. A small instalment expended on the construction of light railways would enable the hardy fishermen to find a market for fish, which now were often left to rot on the ground. He was not deprecating the benefits the Chief Secretary proposed to give, but he asked for more to repair the neglect of 97 years. In the only place where money had been advanced to build a fishing harbour, every shilling of the loan had been repaid; and that loan was made by a private benefactress, the Baroness Burdett-Coutts. If the Chief Secretary would see what he could do in this direction he would receive every assistance from the local authorities. He thanked the Chief Secretary for subsidising a steamboat service from Torbert to Kilrush and acceding to the many earnest representations made to him on the subject. He was also obliged to him for having sent Government engineers to survey and report on the proposed deepening of Kilrush Harbour and the extension of the pier at Kilrush, and he urged the right hon. Gentleman to get this work completed. It was a work which would help the trade and the prosperity of what ought to be a flourishing commercial port, and it would be of great assistance
    1506
    in making the steamboat service the Government now subsidised thoroughly efficient. It would also make Kilrush one of the first ports in the west of Ireland for commercial purposes. He warned the Chief Secretary that the Waterford and Limerick Railway, by refusing to book through fares via Tarbert and Kilrush, were endeavouring to impair the good that would be done by the steamship service now subsidised by the Government from Tarbert to Kilrush, and this he believed was done in order to support the so-called Lower Shannon service, which had hitherto refused to help in the matter. There were two light railways, or rather two extensions of light railways, which he urgently desired to see made. One was from Kilkee to Carrigaholt, which would be of the greatest service to the fishing industry of West Clare, and the other from Ennistymon to Liscannor, which would be the making of the great slate industry at Liscannor, and be of great service to the poor and industrious fishermen of that place, while it would also help to increase the visits of tourists to the beautiful scenery of Ennistymon and neighbourhood. The right hon. Gentleman knew from personal inspection in his frequent visits to Ireland something of the wants of the people of West Clare. On the subject of the Ennis and Scariff railway—the promised money for which was lost by the packing of the Grand Jury—he urged upon the Government the importance of re-organising the Grand Jury system in Ireland, in order that such action might no longer be possible.
    MR. J. G. BUTCHERsaid that as a native of Kerry he had heard with the greatest pleasure that facilities were to be given for visiting that attractive county. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would take care that the fares charged on the subsidised steamboats and coaches were reasonable. The point mentioned by the hon. Member who spoke last, as to the Limerick and Waterford Railway, was well worthy of attention, as in the past that company had not given all those facilities for traffic which had been desired.
    MR. VESEY KNOXsaid that he had no reason to grumble at the programme of the Chief Secretary, which had been formulated in a generous spirit. There were reasons justifying

    1507
    the right hon. Gentleman in spending so much money in Donegal. That county was not encumbered much with the 5ft. 3in. gauge, as some other parts of Ireland. The results of the policy of the right hon. Member for North Leeds, when Chief Secretary, in constructing that considerable narrow-gauge system had amply justified the experiment. Then the shirt trade of Londonderry was in its social and economic effects one of the most useful of the few industries remaining in Ireland. It gave employment not only in the city, but to the women in every place in railway communication with Londonderry; and in that way it had done a great deal to prevent Donegal from becoming depopulated as rapidly as some other parts of Ireland. The railway extension proposed by the right hon. Gentleman would be very beneficial in increasing the employment in this trade; but he thought that the proposed route might be improved by a deviation by way of Dunfanaghy. Owing to the ease of construction that deviation would not materially increase the cost of the line. It was not so important in the case of these light railways to take the shortest route; the chief object was to open up the district and to bring the railway as near as possible to the largest number of persons. He was not to be understood as saying that the line would not be useful; he believed, on the contrary, it would be of the greatest advantage to Donegal and to the north-west, but in addition to the scheme which the Government were supporting there was another scheme for which a Bill had been passed, and the capital, as he believed, would be subscribed, and therefore indirectly they were helping themselves, while they freely and thankfully admitted the right hon. Gentleman was doing his best to help them.
    MR. DENIS KILBRIDEsuggested that it was in the power of the Chief Secretary and the Secretary to the Treasury to do a great deal for his constituency, not by way of spending money, but by way of remission. He called attention to an item on page 196 of the Estimate—£200 for recovering by special agents of repayments in arrear. He believed that referred to proceedings taken for the purpose of recovery of taxes under the Sub-Drainage Acts.
    1508
    Now the Sub-Drainage Board constituted under the Act of 1878 consisted of 21 members, all of whom were members of the landlord class, the occupiers having no representation upon it whatever. He found that £45,000 of the total expenditure had been spent by this wholly non-representative body. Under the Act of 1886 the membership was increased to 28, thus giving the occupying elements, who were as much liable as the landlords were for the repayment, a representation of 7, 21 being still landlords and landlords' agents. One of the last Sub-Drainage Acts again altered the constitution of the Board, and indeed created a new Board, consisting of 14 landlords and 14 occupiers. He did not say that as regards the money expended by the joint Board, on which the occupiers had a moiety of the representation, he desired for any reduction at all in the interest on the money expended, or any increase in the number of years for repayment. But he maintained that as far as £90,000 was concerned, expended previously to the Act of 1889, it had been spent by a body from which the occupiers had been partially or wholly excluded. Nevertheless, when he looked at the award made by the Board of Public Works in determining the amount to be paid by the landlords and occupiers respectively, he found that they had divided the sum almost equally between them—namely, occupiers £3,013, and owners £3,189. The Government had been obliged to set on foot 500 or 600 prosecutions for the recovery of the money, but he took leave to doubt whether they would ever be able to recover it, because it was irrecoverable—not because the people were dishonest, but because they felt they had received no corresponding benefit, and further, because they felt they had had nothing to do with the making of the guarantee. He could not understand by what system the Board of Works arrived at this division of liability. But what he directed the attention of the Chief Secretary to was this, that in. the case of men who were leaseholders at the time of the passage of the Act, these leaseholders, if they held for a term longer than 21 years, became liable both as occupiers and proprietors. There was the case of a man who was in this position, and who was charged a sum almost amounting to

    1509
    as much as the judicial rent. There were many grave cases of hardship that had occurred in this connection, and where the money charged to the tenant was entirely out of proportion to any benefit his land had received. There was the case of Thomas Scott, who was charged £2 5s. 8d. a year for the improvement of ten acres of his land. He had been over the whole of this holding, and he fearlessly asserted that nothing like ten acres could be improved by the drainage of the River Suck. As a. matter of fact, his land had not been benefited by the drainage of the river. His land, which used to be flooded in winter time, was now never flooded, and there were consequently none of the deposits on the land which used to be left after a flood. As a result, his grass was now not so long or so succulent as it used to be. He had been struck with the extraordinary ability of the gentlemen who made the estimates to appraise the improvement which had taken place in the land almost to a penny. There was the case of John Tiernan, who had to appear under a civil bill for the sum of 6d., which was the estimated value of the improvement to his land by the drainage. It appeared to him a peculiar amount for the Government to proceed for, and it also showed to him that the gentlemen who made the estimate had a nicer sense of the improvement of the land than any other man lie had come across in all his life. It was also open to the suggestion that the Government, having advanced so much money for the drainage of the Suck, had come to the conclusion that they must apportion the amount over the drainage area irrespective of whether the land was improved or not. He asked the Chief Secretary to get some one who knew the value of land in Ireland—the Court valuers or Land Sub-Commissioners—to walk over the whole of this land to test whether his statement were true or not, that many of the lands charged with a considerable amount of money for improvement had not benefited to the amount charged, and, in some eases, had not benefited at all. Did they mean to tell him that five or six hundred poor Irish tenants were going to allow themselves to be decreed and seized upon by the Sheriff in respect of this money? It was said that there was a combination against the payment of
    1510
    these Estimates. The reason of the combination was that the tenants did not receive any corresponding benefit for the money they were charged, and that was why they refused—he said rightly—to pay. It was unworthy of this Government, which was spending so much money in other parts of Ireland for the development of its resources and the relief of the poor and congested districts of the country, to have their agents and their bailiffs running about gathering up the few pounds that remained of this £3,167. They had issued 500 civil bill decrees against the occupiers, but how many had they issued against the owners? The right hon. Gentleman told him some time ago, in reply to a question, that the whole of the owners' liability was not paid, and he wanted to know why they were not proceeded against as well the occupiers? They all knew that the owners were supporters of the right hon. Gentleman and the Government; and the Treasury had proceeded against the occupiers because they were opponents of the Government and supporters of those who sat on those Benches. He wanted to ask the Secretary to the Treasury to remember that £90,000 of this money was expended prior to the time that the occupiers had any representative element on the Board, and that they had no voice in the imposition of the money from which they received no corresponding benefit. This was a. matter which was well worthy of the attention of the Chief Secretary as well as the Treasury, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to see his way to relieve these people front the excessive charge from which they honestly believed they were suffering. He would ask the right hon. Gentleman to pay special attention to this matter, otherwise he would have in the coming winter, what he had last autumn, last winter, and last spring—the people in revolt against this extortionate charge of the Government.
    MR. SERJEANT HEMPHILLsaid there was only one point on which he should like some information from the Chief Secretary. In the course of the speech in which he so fairly and lucidly unfolded his scheme to the Committee, he stated that he was not prepared to spend the entire sum of £500,000 because he alleged it would be necessary to keep in

    1511
    reserve a certain portion for contingencies. As he read the Act of Parliament the bounty of the Government was not at all limited to £500,000, because the section said that—
    "the total amount advanced by the Treasury under this Act shall not at any one time exceed £500,000."
    MR. GERALD BALFOUR(who was indistinctly heard) was understood to say that the Bill as drafted contemplated the possibility not merely of free grants from the Treasury, but also further grants in the way of loans which should be repaid. As a matter of fact, he did not propose to make any loans, and the particular passage in the Act to which the right hon. Gentleman was calling attention had in view of the possibility of loans being made and repaid. The whole of the money proposed to be distributed would be in the nature of free grants.
    MR. SERJEANT HEMPHILLsaid this section dealt with advances, and he thought the fair meaning of it was that the total amount advanced by the Treasury should not at any one time exceed £500,000, but that next year or the year after a supplementary scheme might be framed and a further sum of £500,000 awarded by the Treasury.
    MR. MICHAEL DAVITTreferred to the hopeful promise which had been made by the Chief Secretary, with reference to the small scheme for opening up Lough Mask. He understood that the scheme was now under the consideration of the Irish Government. He had recently visited this portion of his constituency, and he found that all parties were anxious that the scheme should not be indefinitely postponed. Many of his constituents had stated that in order to take their live stock to the market, the journey very often took from Saturday to Monday morning. If, however, the scheme could be carried out, and flat-bottomed boats were placed on Lough Mask, the journey could be performed in three or four hours. No one in the locality was opposed to the scheme, and he trusted that the Chief Secretary would continue to give his sympathetic consideration to it. The scheme would also open up the country to tourists.
    MR. W. O'MALLEYsaid, that although there was a railway from Galway to Clifden
    1512
    it was to a large extent useless. The railway assisted, no doubt, the development of the tourist traffic, but the only industry which could be developed was the fishing industry. To a large extent the railway was almost useless for that purpose. During the last two or three years the seas round Connemara had been teeming with fish, but a half or two-thirds of the fish were lost owing to the fact that they could not be conveyed to the railway station at Clifden. It was thus absolutely necessary that a harbour should be constructed at Clifden which would allow fishing boats to enter and so reach the railway terminus.
    MR. JOHN DILLON: referred to the question of sub-drainage and the very great hardship inflicted on the poor occupiers in Galway and Roscommon in connexion with the charge for the work. He called attention to what he-described as an extraordinary passage in the report of 1895–96 of the Irish Board of Works in which it was stated that "in most cases it is clear that there was a deliberate, and in many cases a combined, attempt to evade payment." This was another piece of evidence showing that the various public bodies, including the Irish judges on occasions, did not understand the proper sphere of their functions in Ireland. He next called attention to a civil bill in which the Irish Attorney General sued a tenant for 6d. as his amount of liability, 1s. being added for the Receiver's fee. He thought that the Irish Attorney General ought to be summoned before the Select Committee on Money-lending to explain the procedure of the Irish Board of Works. Some of the evidence given before that Committee was no worse than the proceedings disclosed in this document. He quoted another document in which a man was sued for a debt of 10s. 5d. The actual debt of the man was 2s. 8d.—["Oh, oh !"]—but 6s. 9d. for costs and 1s. for a certificate had been added. In order to recover 2s. 8d. the Government would, in all probability, spend £30 or £40 in the employment of police. That was a fair sample of the method of government in Ireland. In the case of many of the farms, the money was not honestly due, because no value had been added to the land by the drainage. Many of the farms were charged either

    1513
    in respect of land that had not been improved at all, or in respect of land that had not been improved nearly to the extent of the charge laid upon it. They were entitled to know before they were called upon to vote this £200 what the nature of these special proceedings was, who was the special agent employed, what was the present condition of affairs with regard to the proceedings, and also what machinery the Board of Works made use of in determining the addition to the value of the land when they were estimating the charges to be made on the various farms. So much for the question of sub-drainage. As to the question of the general administration and constitution of the Board of Works, the first item in the Estimate which struck him as remarkable was the monstrous, bloated, and indefensible salary of the present chairman of the Board. For many years the salary attaching to the chairmanship was £1,500, but for the last two years they had been called upon to vote £2,500. The Committee were entitled to a full explanation of this unexampled increase. The present chairman was a Scotchman, and formerly the manager of a railway. He could not see that because a man was a successful manager of a railway he would be a good chairman of the Board of Works, especially seeing that the Board had very little to do with the management of railways. If he were asked what were the two most important departments of the Board he should reply the engineer's and the architect's—["hear, hear !"]—and yet neither the chairman nor either of the two commissioners had had any special training as an engineer or an architect. He had a great admiration for the Scotch nation, but he would like to know what would be the feeling of Scotchmen, if an Irishmen were appointed Secretary for Scotland, and if that gentleman placed under him as his chief official another Irishman. He imagined that the Debates on Scotch questions would be a little more lively than they usually were. Judging from the information which had reached him, Mr. Robertson's administration had given general dissatisfaction, and therefore he was anxious to know what were the qualifications of that gentleman which induced the Government to appoint hum chairman of the Board, and, secondly,
    1514
    why they increased the salary of the office by £1,000. Mr. Robertson not only received an increased salary, but he had appointed an additional assistant secretary at a salary of £500, rising by increments of £50 to £600. That assistant secretary was not a civil servant, but a man imported from the Great Northern Railway, like his chief, and placed over the head of all the civil servants in the office. The Government were bound to lay before the Committee very strong reasons for such a condition of things, which on the face of it looked exceedingly bad. As he had said, the engineer's and the architect's departments were the two chief departments of the Board of Works. In the engineer's department there was one engineer with a salary of £750 rising to £900, an assistant with a salary of £400 rising to £600, and a clerk of the works with a salary of £150 rising to £200. In the architect's department there was a senior surveyor with a salary of £700, and two assistants with £600. It appeared to him that these two departments had been starved in order to pay the chairman of the Board a high salary. He came now to the question of the recovery of the loans. He put a question the other day, in consequence of numerous complaints, as to the amount of fees charged by the Board of Works under Section 6 of the Public Works Act 1892. He had been told that the power of imposing these charges had been used with extreme harshness since Mr. Robertson came into office; and he, therefore, put his question in the House and received the following reply:—The fees imposed under the sanction during the past five years were—14s. 9d. in 1892–93; £4 8s. 5d. in 1893–94; £121 12s. 1d. in 1894–95; £195 in 1895–96; and £717 in 1896–97. That was to say, that within the last year these penal fees had jumped from £195 to £717. That was a monstrous increase, and there was nothing to account for it, either in the number of instalments due or the amounts recovered. ["Hear, hear!"] He understood also that much hardship had been caused by neglect to insure due service of warnings. ["Hear, hear!"] Another point to which he wished to draw attention was the question of contracts, especially to mention a case the particulars of which had been furnished him by tradesmen at Dublin. He

    1515
    gratefully acknowledged that the Secretary to the Treasury had in all such matters as these met them with extreme fairness, and had given them pledges which he had faithfully redeemed. Whenever they could substantiate a case of a contractor breaking a fair-wage rule, he had taken action to enforce the rule. ["Hear, hear!"] The special case to which he wanted to refer was the contract for Portrane Lunatic Asylum, in the county of Dublin. It was alleged that the contract had been given to a firm of sweating builders in the district of Dublin, at £1,500 higher than the lowest tender; and that these builders were paying their carpenters 28s. a week and their labourers 12s., when the average wages in the district were 36s. and 19s. respectively. If the facts were as alleged, the fair-wages resolution had been distinctly broken. He had no doubt the right. hon. Gentleman would inquire into this matter, and, if the facts were correctly stated, he would see that the fair-wages resolution was observed. ["Hear, hear!"]
    On the return of the CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS after the usual interval,
    MR. J. C. FLYNNdrew attention to the fact that out of the total sum of £38,000 odd, no less than £17,160 went in salaries for the head officials of the department and the clerical staff. For the engineering branch of the department, which was the most useful branch, only £3,180 was set aside. Considering the importance of the building and drainage work entrusted to the engineering branch, it was surprising that so small a sum should be allocated to it, while so large an amount was expended on the merely clerical staff. He was of opinion that the items of the Vote were not distributed wisely. In connection with the system of loans to Boards of Guardians, he wished to call attention to the treatment which the Listowel Board of Guardians had received at the hands of the Board of Works. He had already drawn attention to this matter in a question which he put to the Chief Secretary two months ago. It appeared that there was an instalment of about £1,750 due by the Listowel Guardians to
    1516
    the Board of Works on the 1st of August last. The Listowel Board was informed that the instalment should by paid by August 31. For some reason—he believed owing to the absence of the clerk—there was some delay, but the instalment was sent on October 1, that was in 31 days. What did the Board of Works do? They demanded £87 18s. as interest. When it was pointed out to them that this was interest at the rate of 60 per cent. the reply came that it was not interest at all, but money due for receiver's fees. He had been informed that as a matter of fact no receiver was appointed in this case, but whether a receiver were appointed or not he asked whether such a demand by the Board of Works was fair. It was but poor encouragement to the Board of Guardians, who had many difficulties to contend against, to treat them in such a manner as that.
    CAPTAIN DONELANsaid that they had listened with great interest to the scheme expounded by the Chief Secretary for the development of the tourist traffic in Ireland. He admitted readily that it was very desirable to develop the tourist traffic on the River Shannon, but he wished to remind the right hon. Gentleman that there was another river that deserved as much attention—namely, the Blackwater. He thought that everybody who had any acquaintance with the scenery of the Blackwater would agree that it equalled if it did not excel, any river scenery in Ireland. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would consider favourably the expediency of subsidising a steamer on this river.
    MR. MICHAEL AUSTINwas afraid that the Chief Secretary had confined his attention to the development of the tourist traffic on the Upper Shannon, and that other parts of the river which were perhaps more picturesque were to be neglected. The intention was to run a steamer from Tarbert to Kilrush; but from Tarbert up to Limerick there was to be no new communication. If the steamer called at Glin and then went on to Foynes—at both of which places there is excellent pier accommodation—and round to Limerick, the tourist traffic on the Shannon might be greatly extended.
    MR. J. GILHOOLYcomplained that whereas formerly an Irish

    1517
    tenant farmer could borrow money from the Treasury to the extent of live times the value of his holdings, now, owing to a Treasury minute, he could not borrow more than three times its value. The former Chancellor of the Exchequer consented to the advance of £10,000 from the Board of Works provided that the Congested Districts Board and the Cork and Bandon Railway would give an equal sum. The Congested Districts Board seemed to have agreed to give a third of the £10,000 and the Cork and Bandon Railway to give a third. But the railway directors found they bad no power to advance the money. He desired to ask whether the Treasury would give two-thirds of the money out of the Board of Works in addition to the third the Congested Districts Board had agreed to. A deep-water pier was wanted at Baltimore to develop the fishing industry there, and make the line of railway which had recently been constructed more useful.
    MR.KNOXdrew attention to a sum of £20,313 down for receivers' fees under the Local Loans Fund. He asked whether this represented profits which the British Government expected to make in the year out of money-lending transactions in Ireland. Fees in respect of loans were exacted from local authorities in cases where he doubted whether the Treasury had any legal right to exact them. The point would shortly be before the Courts in Ireland. Receivers' fees had been exacted from poor tenants without any legal right whatever. The Suck Drainage Loan was authorised by an Act of 1892, but the money had been issued before the Act was passed. The Act of 1892 said that—
    "in addition to any sum in respect of principal and interest and any loan hereafter created or in respect of any rent-charge hereafter granted by the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland, there shall be paid 1s. in the pound receivers fees thereon."
    These loans were wholly or partly issued before this Act was passed. Sixpence was a month overdue in respect of loans granted before the Act of 1892, but the Treasury went and sued for the 6d. and for ls. receiver's fees. He contended that there was nothing to allow them to sue for the apportioned part. These forms of petty chicanery were really
    1518
    most irritating. In point of law no receivers' fees could, under the Act of 1892, be exacted in respect of Suck Drainage Loans. But even if he were wrong on that point it was clear that 1s. in receiver's fees could not be excluded where 6d. was the total sum due in the first instance. Local bodies in Ireland should understand that receivers' fees were levied if any sum borrowed was a month overdue, but that no further sum could be levied even if the loan continued overdue for a longer period. Therefore the advice he would give to any local authority which happened to be liable for receivers' fees was to take as long as they could. He hoped they would strain their legal rights to the utmost. This charge had not been made upon borrowers in England or Scotland. It was levied in Ireland, and Ireland only; and it should be made as profitless to the Treasury as possible. He believed that with a little ingenuity it would be quite possible to make it not a gain to the Treasury but a loss.
    MR. DILLONasked why this year the proportion of refusals of applications for loans for the erection of workmen's dwellings in the towns in Ireland was greater that it had ever been before. He thought every possible encouragement should be given to the building of national schools, but he noticed that last year only £30,000 was given to the National School Commissioners, instead of £40,000 as was promised. Why should this deduction of £10,000 be made? There ought to be no undue check on the building of national schools in Ireland. Every grant had to run the gauntlet of the National Education Commissioners, and then of the Board of Works, and unless it were approved by both the money was not issued. Why then was this limitation placed upon the sum given to the Commissioners?
    MR. J. BRIGG: called attention to the fact that a serious attempt had been made in order to make use of the water power in Ireland for industrial purposes. This would be exceedingly useful to the country and the manufacturers of the country. The Bill passed through Committee, he believed; but, owing to a great many objections which were raised, it was thrown out in another place. He thought that any attempt to benefit the

    1519
    manufacturing industries of Ireland should be encouraged.
    *MR. HANBURYpointed out that the contract which had been referred to by the hon. Member for Mayo was one given out by the Board of Control, and, therefore, was not a Government contract, and he should be put out of order in discussing it. With regard to the question of the workmen's houses, there were five refusals out of 17 applications for these houses. Loans could only be granted, he believed, up to 50 per cent. of the value of the building, and the question arose as to what was the value of the building. The Board of Works decided that it was not the actual amount spent on the building, but what the building would fetch in the market if it were sold. That was not necessarily, however, the reason for the refusals; he thought that in every case in which a loan of this kind had been refused it had been because the building was not a bonâ fide workman's house. It was quite clear that this provision ought not to be extended to buildings which were not of that character. With regard to another point which had been raised, £40,000 a year for three years was the sum assigned to the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland for building grants, and he did not think it could be said that they had been stinted. That only £30,000 was to be paid in the third year was due to the fact that after the arrangement had been made the Commissioners found that they had orders for a larger number of buildings than they had supposed would have to be paid for at once, and had asked that they might be allowed to anticipate £10,000 before the commencement of the three years, and instead of deducting that amount from the grant for the first or second year, they had charged it on the last of the three years. It had been asked why the chairman now received a very much larger salary than his predecessor. There were several very good reasons for that. The present chairmanship was not a permanent appointment; it was only for five years, in addition to which the present chairman sacrificed a very good appointment in order to take his position. Moreover he would not be pensioned. He thought that by the step they had taken in
    1520
    appointing an expert man of business even at a higher salary, a large amount of money had already been saved, Having regard to the large sum that was being expended in connection with railway works, it was especially necessary that they should have at the head of the Board of Works a railway expert. If there were any men in our public service who were often thought not sufficiently paid it was the experts. At attack had been made upon the chairman because he was a Scotchman; but he was at any rate a Scotchman who had been in Ireland, and had been connected with the industries of Ireland for a long time. It had been said that the assistant secretary was not a Civil servant in the ordinary sense of the word, but in special cases special qualifications were required, and in this case the necessary qualifications had not been possessed by other members of the staff. The chairman of the Board of Works had been attacked for his action in connection with the recovery of the Seed Loans; but he would remind hon. Gentlemen that it was not the permanent official, but the chief of the Department who was responsible for him in the House that should be attacked. ["Hear, hear."] The reason of the large increase in the processes for the recovery of the Seed Loans since the appointment of the chairman of the Board of Works was that it had fallen due last year and this year. It was said that it was very hard for the Treasury to have adopted this particular process of recovery; but the Treasury had no discretion whatever in the matter—they were simply acting under the strict directions given by the Act for the recovery of loans. Then, again, the so-called fine of 1s. in the £1 was not a fine at all, but represented the cost of the recovery of the loan.
    MR. CARSON: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to say that he only exacts the exact amount of the cost of recovery
    *MR. HANBURY: Yes; I believe 1s. in the £1 is nearly in all cases the approximate cost incurred; and, indeed, is sometimes below it.
    MR. J. C. FLYNN: The only expense in the Listowel case was the letter sent to the Board of Guardians. [Laughter.]
    *MR. HANBURYsaid that the Listowel Guardians paid up at the last moment; but in most cases the Treasury had to put in force the process of recovery. It was said also that this was a usurious Government—that they charged 60 per cent. for the Seed Loan. But that case was entirely given away by the hon. Member for Londonderry when he advised the people not to repay the Loan.
    MR. KNOX: I told them not to pay until they had to.
    *MR. HANBURYwas sure the hon. Gentleman would not have given the people that advice if he thought they would have to pay 60 per cent. interest while the Loan remained unpaid. The way the hon. Members arrived at the 60 per cent. was this: The Treasury charge 1s. in the £1 if the Loan is in arrear, and 5 per cent. for one month was 60 per cent. for 12 months. [Laughter.] With regard to the whole question of the Suck Drainage, any one listening to the hon. Member for Galway would have assumed that the whole burden fell upon the occupiers, and that they had practically received no benefit from the expenditure of this money. Whilst not denying that the results had been by no means commensurate with the amount expended, it was only right to say the arrangement was that in respect of these large sums the occupiers should pay nothing except to the extent of the enhanced value of the land, and that the whole of the infructuous amount should fall upon the landlords; thus there was primâ facie no hardship to the occupiers. ["Hear, hear!"] The valuations as to the enhanced value in all these cases had been made by Mr. Roberts, who was admitted to be one of the most expert valuers in connection with the Land Commission. Complaint had been made of the iniquity of the Board of Works collecting arrears of sixpences. He admitted that an arrear of 6d. was not a large sum, but when a great number of persons owed small sums which had to be paid periodically the total would represent a large amount, and, after all, he did not know why there should be a greater iniquity in collecting a small sum than in collecting a large debt. He would make the further admission that the cost of collection was
    1522
    out of proportion to the amount involved, and he was not at all quite satisfied that in very small debts like these they were entitled to charge 1s. in the pound. He would inquire more fully into the matter. The hon. Member for Mayo had stated that it had been admitted that certain landlords were also in arrear with their payments, whilst the Government proceeded against the occupiers and not against the landlords. He agreed with the hon. Member that both ought to be treated alike and that they ought to recover equally from the landlords as from the occupiers. ["Hear, hear!"] As to the loans to small farmers, until recently they could borrow up to an amount representing five times the valuation of their property. The maximum amount had now been reduced to three times the valuation, unless collateral security was given, and the minimum sum had also been reduced from £50 to £35, the reason for the change being that experience had shown it was very difficult to recover the loans from the smaller tenants. If, however, any case of hardship could be shown to have resulted from the new arrangement he should be perfectly willing to inquire into it.
    MR. DILLONthought the right hon. Gentleman must be mistaken in his impression that the shilling in the pound represented the cost of collection. He had in his hand a civil bill which had been served on one of the Suck Drainage tenants for a claim of 2s. 8d., together with 1s. in the pound for receiver's fee, there being a memorandum stating that the cost of the process if settled before entry would be 2s. The costs of all these proceedings for recovery were separately fixed and were recoverable in the case of all proceedings instituted by the Board of Works, as they were before the passing of the Act of 1892. He, therefore, believed that the fine of 1s in the pound did not represent the cost of collection, but was a special fine confined to Ireland, not applicable to England, although the Public Works Loan Act of

    1523
    1892 applied to both countries. The Act did not provide that with respect to any loan created in England, there should be a charge of ls. in the pound. It would only be fair play, therefore, to put a clause into the next Public Works Loans Act repealing the provision as far as Ireland was concerned.
    DR. TANNERsaid that this discussion on Irish public works went on year after year, and nothing was done. The position of things now was just what it was 50 years ago. A man was prosecuted in connection with the River Suck Drainage for a sum of 6d., and the railway fare to Galway was 6s. 3d. He moved the reduction of the Vote by £2,000.
    Question "That a sum, not exceeding £24,247, be granted for the said Service,"—put, and negatived.
    MR. T. M. HEALYsaid as the Works Department had now spent the necessary sum on Kingstown roads, could the Secretary hold out any hope of the sum of 1800 being paid to the Kingstown Commissioners?
    *MR. HANBURYsaid no, he was afraid the bargain as a whole must be carried out. The hon. Member knew why the Bill could not be passed this year. The whole arrangement would have to stand over until next year.
    Original Question put, and agreed to.
    Resolution to be reported.

    CLASS IV.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a sum, not exceeding £2,450, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for a grant in aid of the expenses of the Queen's Colleges in Ireland."
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILLcalled attention to the claims of the Roman Catholic population of Ireland with respect to University education. Looking to the Estimate, he said, it might be imagined that the annual expenditure on the Queen's Colleges only amounted to £33,000; as a matter of fact, it amounted more nearly to £38,900. The explanation was that a sum of £5,000 had been eliminated from the Estimate and been transferred from the Irish Church Fund to the expenses of the new institution of which the Queen's Colleges were nurseries, the Royal University. In other words, the English Government, while pretending to do justice to Ireland, had appropriated £5,000 of Irish money which used to be taken out of public funds. The question of University education in Ireland was of intense interest at the present time. The Irish case was this, that a large sum of money had been expended uselessly on a University system which the Irish people would nut take, while everything like University education for the Catholic people of Ireland had been starved out. There was given out of public funds towards University education a sum annually of £168,000. What was given to Catholics out of that sum? £3,000 a year only. It was worth while showing the way this £3,000 came to them. It was given in an indirect way. There were certain fellowships established under this grant in the Royal University. The holders of these fellowships, 14 in number, were asked to lecture in University College in Dublin. They lectured there and likewise examined in the Royal University, and their whole income for lecturing and examining was the £3,000 referred to. Now when it was considered that the Catholics were four-fifths of the whole population, this was an intolerable proportion. For 30 years absolute promises had been made across the floor of the House on this subject. In 1868 Lord Mayo expressly promised in the strongest terms a Catholic University. Twelve

    1525
    years ago the gentleman who was now, as then, Chancellor of the Exchequer, expressly promised that he would bring in a Bill to establish a Catholic University, but nothing had been done, and still they had the same miserable round of promises. Even in the present year the Chief Secretary reiterated words which he and Lord Cadogan spoke outside the House. The Chief Secretary was a firm upholder of the Union, but he had always thought that his policy in that respect was based on some foundation of this kind—that the English Parliament would give to the people of Ireland what was just and reasonable. Did the right hon. Gentleman know that it was owing to the direct action of the English Government that the Irish people at the present day were proscribed from all the benefits of University education. It was no myth that before the English came to the country at all there was a college at Lismore, in which there were 1,400 students from every country in Europe, and it was no secret that here was the nucleus of a university. And let him tell the right hon. Gentleman that if the Protestant Parliament of Ireland had not been destroyed it would have granted a Catholic University to Ireland. In 1793, in the first Relief Act for Catholics passed by the Irish Parliament, there was the provision that if a new college should be affiliated to Trinity College, Dublin, every Catholic should be eligible for scholarships and fellowships, and even the professorships of the college. He recollected too, that in the Debate on the Irish University question which took place in 1885, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when the extravagant expenditure of the Queen's College was brought up, said that so far as he could see, he could not defend that expenditure, and that the Government would carefully consider how the sum, whatever it was, appropriated to Irish University Education, could best be appropriated. Let them see if it was appropriated in the best way. The
    1526
    Catholic University College had to provide all its buildings and all its apparatus, and yet it was able to surpass and to win university prizes from the pampered students of the Queen's Colleges in Cork and Galway. The Roman Catholic Archbishop of Dublin, Dr. Walsh, had watched the progress of the University question in Ireland with very great attention, and he had within the last few days published a book, in which he showed that during the last 12 years the Catholic College had beaten absolutely the colleges of Cork, Belfast, and Galway in carrying off the first prizes, and in the matter of honours, both the Cork and Galway colleges. In honours, during the past 12 years, the Catholic Colleges had passed no fewer than 926 men, whereas from the combined colleges of Cork and Galway there were only 382 passed.. When they came to first honours, the pre-eminence and distinction of this Catholic College was still more markeds. In the Catholic College 324 men had passed in first honours, whereas from Galway and Cork there were only 97.
    MR. RENTOUL: From how many students?
    MR. MACNEILLsaid he was glad of that interruption, because it enabled him to strengthen his case. The number in the Catholic College was, he thought, about 150, while the number at present in Queen's College, Cork, was 212, and in Queen's College, Galway, about 200. This showed that, with a lesser number than either of these two colleges, the Catholic College had taken a greater number of prizes. Then, when they came to medicine, they found that the Catholic College was able to compete not only with Cork and Galway, but with Belfast also. In medicine, during the last 12 years, 71 men had gone out of the Catholic College with first-class honours, while from the Belfast College only 53 men had gone out, 24 from Cork, and eight from Galway. Scholarships and exhibitions were lavishly strewn upon the floor of these colleges for anyone who chose to take them.

    1527
    They were simply a bribe to induce the intelligent sons of small farmers in Ireland to adopt a system of education which their Church disapproved and to become bad citizens and bad Irishmen. Men who had been plucked in examinations elsewhere had gone back and obtained these scholarships in the Queen's Colleges. He had gone through the report furnished to Parliament every year by the heads of the Queen's Colleges in Cork and in Galway. He left out of consideration the Queen's College in Belfast, because it was a great success, and, like Trinity College, was exactly suitable to the requirements of the pupil; but they were both sectarian.
    MR. LECKYsaid it was untrue to say that Trinity College was sectarian.
    MR. MACNEILLmaintained that it was, at any rate, true to say that the tone and feeling were thoroughly sectarian. In Cork College there were 212 pupils and 16 Professors. The Greek Professor with £366 a year had only 12 pupils; the Professor of political economy with £167 a year had only four pupils; the Professor of law with £175 a year had five pupils; and then there was the president of the College who had a safe and snug berth. There was one professor, the Professor of moral philosophy, with £335 a year, who had no pupils at all. [Laughter.] The Professor of foreign languages combined in his curriculum French, German and Italian. In French he had three pupils, in German two, and in Italian two, and his salary was £241 10s. The Professor of law with £150 a year had eight pupils. He should like to hear the First Lord of the Treasury defend this system. He maintained that at the head of these colleges there ought to be men of moral weight. Who, he asked, was the President of Queen's College, Cork? It was Sir Rowland Ponsonby Blennerhassett, who possessed no educational degree and who had no qualification for the post. He was, however, the paymaster of
    1528
    Pigott, and he was given the post because he financed that infamous man. Pigott's last despairing telegram for money was addressed to Sir Rowland Ponsonby Blennerhassett, and when he was unsuccessful in destroying the Irish people he ran away under the assumed name of Rowland Ponsonby Blennerhassett. Nothing more scandalous had been perpetrated since the Union than the appointment of a man of that character to be the head of youth. ["Hear, hear!"] He had now come to the question of the establishment of a Catholic University. The Chief Secretary gave a specific pledge on the 22nd of January last that there should be a Catholic University and so did the First Lord of the Treasury on the same night. If there was any security in the promise the Leader of the House was pledged up to the hilt. The right hon. Gentleman practically put a series of questions to the Catholic hierarchy. He asked whether they would be content that the clergy should not have a predominant voice in the institution, whether they would be content that an ecclesiastical or divinity chair should not be endowed out of public funds, whether they would be content to make an arrangement like the conscience clause, so that a youth not belonging to the Catholic faith should not be interfered with. The Catholic Bishops had given three specific answers which must have thoroughly satisfied the right hon. Gentlemen. This was a matter upon which all Ireland was unanimous. There was not a single dissentient voice—["Oh !"]—except, perhaps, a few gentlemen in Belfast. Trinity College was very anxious for it; and he was not revealing any secret when he said that one of the most eminent Professors of Trinity College said to him, only a short time ago, "Wouldn't you think such and such a building in Dublin would be a right good building for the Catholic University?" He would ask the right hon. Gentleman seriously, now that the Bishops had

    1529
    given these assurances, would he take the great majority behind him, and use it in accordance with the wishes of the Irish people, and with his own feelings—which, in this matter, were theirs,—and grant the people, who were thirsting for knowledge—["Oh!"]—yes, thirsting for knowledge—for they were refused knowledge when it was divorced from their religious instincts. [Cheers.] Would he give them now the university education they were so unanimous in demanding? He had it in his power; he had an unrivalled opportunity; such an opportunity had not offered itself for the last thirty years. ["Hear, hear!"] What they now wanted to know was the day—they would all be there at the wedding. [Laughter and cheers.]
    MR. DILLONhoped the right hon. Gentleman would give them some definite assurance. When he spoke in January last in the Debate on the Address, the Irish Members firmly believed that that speech gave them a promise more definite than any of the numerous previous promises they had received. It was a promise that if the Bishops of Ireland and the Catholic laity would give the right hon. Gentleman the information he then asked for he would practically settle this question. What had happened since January last? The Bishops had considered the question, and had made a public declaration within the last month, which in that House the right hon. Gentleman had accepted as thoroughly satisfactory, and in every way calculated to remove any of the difficulties that were supposed to lie in the way of the Government. The Bishops had been led into making this declaration by the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, and he knew that he could receive at any moment from the Irish representatives any information he desired which it was in their power to give. He wished to direct the attention of the House and the right hon. Gentleman to the fact that immediately after the declaration of the Irish Catholic
    1530
    Bishops the Dublin Daily Express—which spoke, he thought, he might fairly say, for the whole body of Anglicans in Ireland—published an article which did the greatest possible credit to that journal, and in which it stated that the declaration of the Bishops did them honour, and was entirely satisfactory; and that, for their part, speaking for Irish Protestants, they trusted there would be no further delay in dealing with the question. ["Hear, hear!"] The representatives of Trinity College held the same view. In fact, there was not a single representative Irishman—except perhaps one of the Members for Belfast, who held very strong opinions, and who had gone to Belfast to celebrate the 12th of July. [Laughter.] With this solitary exception not a single individual amongst the whole of the Irish Members had stood up or would stand up and say that he saw any reason why this question should not be settled. ["Hear, hear!"] Surely the demand of the young Catholics of Ireland, made generation after generation, must be acceded to. Whether they were right or wrong was no longer a question to be argued, because the right hon. Gentleman had admitted the fact—he had admitted that they had no right to inquire whether the demand was justified or not—he had admitted that after so many long years of trial they had proved that the present system would not, and could not, meet their wants; and surely the young Catholic men of Ireland, after having suffered for generations from what the right hon. Gentleman himself had characterised as cruel disabilities in this matter of education, had a claim upon the right hon. Gentleman and the Government and that House that they should be no longer subjected to such disabilities, and that no further delays should be imposed. (Cheers.) This was a question, one would suppose after what had occurred in that House within the last fortnight, that had been once for all lifted out of the region of Party politics. The leaders on

    1531
    both sides had declared that the question ought to be settled, indeed ought to have been settled long ago, and he appealed to the right hon. Gentleman no longer to meet them with evasion, but to state specifically that he would next Session—if it could not be clone this Session—introduce a Bill that would settle finally this question of a Catholic University for Ireland. (Cheers.)
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERsaid the hon. Member who had just spoken had told the House that no protest had been raised, except by one hon. Member of the House with regard to this proposal. Certainly he was not in a position to raise any protests on the facts, because he did not know what the facts were. But he did reserve the right of himself and his constituents, if they were to have proposals which had been previously made in that House reproduced—a right which they would certainly exercise—of criticising and opposing those proposals if they thought it their duty to do so. ["Hear, hear!"] He wished to point out that an attempt had been made, which would no doubt be repeated, to represent those who did not go with the hon. Member to the full extent as being illiberal and retrograde. The Universities which had been alluded to by hon. Members were the institutions of an age gone by, and in some instances such Universities had been removed by Government because they were not considered essential to the civilisation and the education of the countries in which they were situated and were not thought to be compatible with the best interests of the places in which they carried on their operations. The University of London had not been such a success that they were warranted in creating a similar institution in Ireland. He objected strongly to such a University as had been suggested unless on lines he considered compatible with absolute freedom to those who desired to attend it, and he was sure he should be
    1532
    misrepresenting the views of a large number of his constituents if he did not enter his protest against it at the present moment. He did not know what negotiations might have passed between Her Majesty's Government and those on behalf of whom the Member for East Mayo spoke, but, at any rate, he could not stand by and be taken as acquiescing in what the hon. Member had put forward.
    MR. CARSONsaid he had already expressed his views on the subject. He entirely agreed that Trinity College was an unsectarian institution, and he understood that the Catholics of Ireland were willing to have a university which would be unsectarian in the same sense. At the same time, it would, of course, be folly to deny that Trinity College was a great centre for the Protestant Church in Ireland, and that there was also connected with that college certain services which he hoped would always continue there, and which would always give a certain Protestant aroma to the precincts of that great institution. The one main contention that his right hon. Friend the Leader of the House put forward was that this Question could not be dealt with until the Catholics of Ireland manifested to the Government that they were willing that, so far as these matters were absolutely unsectarian in Trinity College, they should be unsectarian in the proposed new University, and that, so far as the use of public funds went, they should be devoted to unsectarian purposes alone. If that was what the Catholics were willing to accept, let them not talk of this matter as if it were a bugbear of a purely Catholic University where there would be exclusion of all religious liberty as far as Protestants were concerned. ["Hear, hear!"] Let them start with what the Catholics offered to accept—namely, what Protestants had got. [Nationalist cheers.] What he had always said and adhered to was this—would he as a Protestant in Ireland, who believed in

    1533
    the value of University education, deny for a moment to his Roman Catholic fellow citizens exactly what he enjoyed. ["Hear, hear!"] That proposition would be absolutely unarguable. He did not know that there might not be some persons in his own constituency opposed to granting a University on these terms, but so far as the internal Government of Trinity College was concerned, he did not believe there would be any objection. ["Hear, hear!"] Having done all they could to attract Catholics to Trinity College and failed, ought they to say that because they would not come to them they should have no University education at all? He had never hesitated to put forward the view that it was the best interest of Ireland that this question should be settled, and when the Government saw their way to bring the matter before the House for settlement, he could only say, on his own behalf and on behalf of his right hon. colleague, that they would welcome a fair solution of the question on the lines lie had indicated. ["Hear, hear!"]
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: An appeal has been made to me from both sides of the House, and by more than one speaker, upon a subject winch has become more identified with my own individual utterances than any other question in connection with recent Irish policy. A question has been asked me as to whether it is intended that a Bill dealing with higher education in Ireland shall be introduced in the course of next Session. I feel certain that the hon. Gentleman who asked the question and the others who have spoken upon it must all be aware that at this time a forecast can scarcely ever be given by the Government with regard to the coming Session. A pledge has been distinctly given that one great Irish Measure shall be brought in next Session, and the fact that that promise has been given shows that the complexion of next Session will be largely—I will not say
    1534
    predominantly—Irish; and that I should mortgage the rest of that Session to another Irish bill goes beyond anything I could promise on behalf of the Government. ["Hear, hear!"] There is no doubt in the minds of hon. Members who initiated this Debate a desire to know what the views of the Government are with regard to the recent declarations made on high authority by the Roman Catholic Bishops in Ireland. The hon. Member for Donegal said that the declarations of the Irish Bishops were made in response to a speech which I delivered in the Debates on the Address. That, as I gather, is a large approach to the truth, and if I am responsible for the declarations of the Irish Bishops on this subject I have to congratulate myself the more for having made the speech to which the hon. Member referred, for everybody must feel that the Roman Catholic Bishops have on this occasion made declarations of the utmost importance, showing that a great change has come over public opinion in Ireland on this question, and that they are not only ready but anxious to have a University started which Roman Catholics might not only attend, but which should harmonise generally with the views of Roman Catholics, and which should have its doors as widely open to members of all denominations as Trinity College, Dublin, and which should be as open as any other University in the land to everything connected with the progress of knowledge and to the advancement of all the liberal arts. That declaration, I think, must have a great bearing upon public opinion both in this country and in Ireland. ["Hear, hear!"] Those exponents of Irish opinion who were supposed to be most hostile to these modern views have now declared in favour of them, and we have it specifically on their authority that they welcome, as understand, a governing body on which laymen shall predominate, and that they are prepared to safeguard the interests

    1535
    of the professors and to accept in the fullest sense those very statutes which in the cases of Trinity College, Dublin, and of Oxford and Cambridge insure that the emoluments and teaching of those great seats of learning shall be open to men of every religious creed. I think that is a most important declaration, and I think I may almost gather from the speech of the hon. Member for Belfast—studiously guarded as that speech was—that he himself would not be averse for a settlement of this difficult subject upon the general lines thus laid down. But when the hon. Member for Donegal and other hon. Gentlemen sitting upon the other side of the House told us that public opinion is so far advanced that it rests simply with the Government to bring in a non-contentious Measure of one clause—that, I think, was the happy solution suggested the other day across the floor of the House—a non-contentious Measure of one clause which should for ever settle this question, I think they hardly reckoned with every phase of public opinion in Ireland, in England, and in Scotland. ["Hear, hear!"] I have made myself, perhaps to my own detriment, somewhat a missionary in this matter. I have done my best for many years, and if, as I trust will not be the case, the question is not rapidly solved, I shall continue to make myself the strong and earnest advocate of opinions which I hold to be of the utmost importance in the interests of higher education and in the interests of the whole social life of Ireland. I hold those views with the utmost strength of conviction, and nothing will induce me to go back on one word which, as far as I remember, I have ever uttered upon this question. But I do not conceal from myself that there is a process of conversion to be effected in connection with this matter. There are many persons holding quite honestly the view that to establish such university would be a retrograde measure—["hear, hear!"]— and that it would be a concession to
    1536
    opinions with which they profoundly disagree. I confess that though I understand those views I do not sympathise with them. [Nationalist cheers.] I am a Protestant. I fear that some people would even regard me as a bigoted Protestant, and it is partly because I am a bigoted Protestant that I hold the views that I do in this matter, for I cannot help picturing to myself what course I should take if I were responsible for a young man of 17 or 18, and had open to me for his university training no college except one in which the general current and trend of opinion was Roman Catholic, in which the majority of the teachers were Roman Catholic, and in which the public services were celebrated on the Roman Catholic system. Greatly as I believe in the value of higher education, that a university training is one of the greatest blessings any man can have on the entrance of life, I, holding the Protestant opinions I do, should hesitate to send to such a college any ward of mine for whose education I was responsible. Holding these Protestant views, am I not to be permitted to credit Roman Catholics with similar views? [Irish cheers.] With regard to places of worship, every word of the description I have given about a Roman Catholic University might be applied, with the substitution of the word "Protestant" for Roman Catholic. ["Hear, hear!"] I confess that no argument, no casuistry, to which I have listened has been able to shake my conviction that it is a hardship—I do not like to use the word "injustice" because we might argue for ever about what is just or unjust—a hardship on the great majority of the Roman Catholics in Ireland that they are not to be allowed to have a place of higher education which harmonises with their views in the same sense in which Trinity College, Dublin, Oxford, and Cambridge (the great traditional Universities of England), harmonise with the general views of Protestants in England. Holding the views I do, I shall do all I can

    1537
    in accordance with them. Hon. Gentlemen opposite know perfectly well when they talk of carrying a non-contentious clause, when they assume opinions, however strongly held by individuals, whatever position those individuals may occupy in their Party—that does not carry with it any remedy or cure for the Parliamentary difficulties to which controversial questions give rise. But I think I see symptoms—not small symptoms—of a change of public opinion in this country on the subject. I believe the views I hold with such earnestness are beginning to penetrate in many directions where they had but little foothold some years ago, and certainly the action of the Catholic Bishops has done a great deal to forward a cause which is not, I believe, the cause of any one special form of religious denomination, the cause of Roman Catholicism against Protestantism, but is emphatically the cause of higher education against that want of higher education and culture under which we have, unfortunately, for many years condemned so many persons in Ireland. [Cheers.]
    MR. J. MORLEY: I do not propose to make many observations after the interesting, eloquent, and important speech we have just heard from the First Lord of the Treasury. But I think the Committee ought to realise where it is. With what the right hon. Gentleman has said on the urgency of the matter, and the grounds upon which he has defended his own views I venture humbly, but most entirely, to agree. He has stated the case for dealing with higher education in Ireland with a force and breadth that leaves nothing to be desired. I also agree with the right hon. Gentleman when he warns my hon. Friends from Ireland, that this will not be a one-clause or non-contentious Measure. As I have said, I cordially and entirely agree with the views of the right hon. Gentleman. But if the Benches behind me were more populous than they are, I am not at all sure I should find a majority of those who sit
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    behind me in agreement with me. I have always taken care, in speaking on this subject, to say that I spoke for myself only, and it is clear from what has fallen from the hon. Member for Belfast, that the Government in dealing with this question, will undoubtedly find a great many serious difficulties. As the right hon. Gentleman said, next Session is pledged to an Irish Measure of the first importance which will no doubt occupy a great deal of Parliamentary time, and when he says it will be impossible for the Government to add to the Measure for Local Government in Ireland a second Irish Measure bristling with controversy of every kind, and which would involve a large amount of detail, I cannot deny that there is a good deal to be said for the right hon. Gentleman's position. But here is a Measure which the right hon. Gentleman argues for as being of the most urgent importance for the well-being of Ireland which cannot be taken next year. Then will it be taken the year after?
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I did not say the Bill could not be passed next year. What I refuse to do is to make any further pledge.
    MR. J. MORLEY: I am glad the right hon. Gentleman takes a more hopeful view of what may be done next year. So do not let us suppose that because the Bill promised bears on the controversy of the government of Ireland that time cannot be found next Session reasonably to deal with the question we have been discussing. Then it will be argued by the Government, and very reasonably, that it would be unfair, having devoted the whole or the larger part of the Session of 1898 to an Irish question, to devote to another Irish question of great importance the whole or part of the Session of 1899. Therefore it comes to this, that a Measure which the right hon. Gentleman has given the House such enormously powerful reasons for thinking is urgently demanded for the well-being

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    of Ireland, a Measure upon which Irish opinion, I will not say is unanimous, because it is not quite unanimous, but which I suppose 95 out of the 103 Members for Ireland will cordially and earnestly support—["hear, hear!"]—that a Measure of that kind demanded by the great bulk of opinion in Ireland, and of the Members representing Ireland, is in effect, postponed sine die, and certainly postponed during the probable duration of this Parliament. I think, apart from the merits of Irish University education, that that is a very striking lesson which English and Scotch Members may well lay to heart, that this Parliament has not time to deal with this matter, and that apparently Englishmen and Scotch-men, according to the First Lord of the Treasury, have not the inclination to do so, either through failure to comprehend the conditions of the question or through a determination to assert their own prejudices against the wishes of the majority of the people of Ireland. This Parliament is, in effect, to deny to Ireland the boon which the right hon. Gentleman, on the one side, and I myself, from my Irish experience and approaching the the question from an entirely different point of view, entirely concur is desirable. We know quite well that a demand of that kind is not likely to be satisfied or conceded during the duration of the present Parliament, and I think it is fair for one like myself, who agree with Gentlemen below the Gangway in their desire for this reform- -at some detriment to myself—to warn the Irish Bishops that if they think they will get a Roman Catholic University from the present Parliament they are much more sanguine than I should have expected.
    MR. J. A. RENTOULsaid the whole Presbyterian Church of Ireland was opposed to this university. The Presbyterian clergy were singularly free from bigotry, but they were persuaded that a mixed education would be more conducive to harmony among the people. Nineteen-twentieths of the
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    Presbyterian clergy were followers of Mr. Gladstone down to 1886, and were at the present time Liberal-Unionists, and Presbyterian ministers had again and again stood on platforms shoulder to shoulder with Roman Catholic priests in discussing the Irish land question and in supporting the cause of tenant right. There was no church that was freer from the odium theologicum, but they were opposed to a Sectarian University. They believed that to have sectarian Universities would bring about an unhappy state of affairs in the country.
    And it being Midnight, the Chairman left the Chair to make his report to the House.
    Resolution to be reported upon Monday next; Committee also Report progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

    WAYS AND MEANS.
    Committee deferred till Monday next.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  On the Motion "that this House do now adjourn,"
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,), announced that the Workmen (Compensation for Accidents) Bill would be reprinted with the Amendments which have been so far made in it on Report, and would be delivered to Members before Monday, and that the Irish Judicature Bill would be introduced by the Chief Secretary for Ireland on Thursday, and not on Monday, as already announced.
  Question, "That this House do now adjourn," put, and agreed to.
  House adjourned accordingly at Five minutes after Twelve o'clock till Monday next.