Commons Sitting of 3 August 1897

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

  SOUTHWARK AND VAUXHALL WATER BILL.
  Lords Amendments considered.
  MR. JAMES STUARTsaid that the Lords Amendments to this Bill, which occupied six pages of their Agenda Paper, were an ample justification of the course which he had taken in that House in connection with this Measure on a previous occasion. The position he had taken up in relation to this Bill was that the Southwark and Vauxhall Company should be permitted to take an additional supply of water from the river Thames for a limited period, provided that the status quo should be preserved. His objection to the Bill when it was before the House on the previous occasion, was that it contained no limitation of the character he had indicated, but contained a number
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  of clauses which would have the effect of seriously prejudicing the future situation. The present situation had arisen from the fact that the Committee of that House before whom the Bill was sent had passed the preamble of the Measure and had sent it to the House of Lords without having heard the case of those who opposed the Bill. The Chairman of that Committee, however, had stated that it was the intention of the Committee that the status quo should be preserved, and expressed their willingness to take the Bill back for further consideration, in order to amend it, if it should not in their opinion provide for the maintenance of the status quo. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board, however, had intervened and said that he would not permit the Bill to be recommitted, because he hoped and believed that the Bill would be amended by the Committee of the House of Lords. He was glad to say that the Bill as sent back to that House by the House of Lords had been largely amended in the direction that he desired. He desired, however, to point out that in one respect the Bill still remained open to objection, namely, that it required the promoters to bring in a Bill in the next Session of Parliament to render the altered position of the Company permanent, without waiting for the Report of the Royal Commission which the Government themselves had appointed to inquire into the whole subject of the Water Supply of London. It was most objectionable that when the whole subject had been referred to a Royal Commission, one of the London Water Companies should be allowed to deal permanently with one portion of that subject, without waiting for the Report of the Royal Commission. However, as he fully admitted that it was necessary that a temporary Measure of some kind dealing with the power of the Company to take additional water from the Thames for a limited period should be passed, he did not propose to offer any further opposition to the Bill, by moving that the Lords' Amendments to it should be considered that day six months.
  SIR FREDK. DIXON-HARTLANDsaid that as the hon. Member had not made any Motion with regard to the Bill, it would be sufficient for him to say that he did not admit

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  in any way that the suggestions of the hon. Member, as to the future effect of the Bill were well founded.
  Lords Amendments agreed to.

  STANDING ORDERS.
  MR. SPEAKERsaid that a number of formal Amendments to the Standing Orders relating to Private Bills stood upon the Paper in the name of the Chairman of Ways and Means, and with the permission of the House he would put the Question that they should be agreed to as a whole, leaving it to any hon. Member to object to any particular Amendment, if he should think fit to do so, in which case he would of course put any such Amendment separately. ["Hear, hear!]
  Amendments agreed to.

QUESTIONS.

  ARMY MEDICAL STAFF MESSES.
  COLONEL DENNY: I beg to ask the Under Secreretary of State for War if he will state how many Army Medical Staff Messes there are in this country, in India, and in the Colonies respectively, and how many of these have come into existence since the introduction of the Army Estimates in February; do the War Office contribute anything towards the expenses of these Messes; and what contributions do the authorities make to the Messes of British regiments and Native regiments in India?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. BRODRICK,): The organisation of a Mess depends largely on the officers themselves, and need not be reported to the War Office. So far as the Director General is aware, there are four medical Messes in this country, none of which have come into existence since February. The Director General is making inquiries as to whether further Messes are desired, and in any such case the War Department will be prepared to give facilities by the provision of a building. In India the Mess allowance to a British regiment is from 150 to 200 rupees a month, and to a native regiment 100 rupees a month.

  CONTEMPT OF COURT (ST. VINCENT).
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies (1) whether he is now in possession of the facts of the case of Mr. C. J. M'Leod, Barrister-at-Law, who was, on the 4th May, committed to the Kingstown Prison, in the Island of St. Vincent, for 14 days, without the option of a fine, for contempt of court, by Mr. Geoffrey St. Aubyn, sitting as acting Chief Justice; (2) whether he can inform the House of what the alleged contempt of court consisted; and (3) whether, supposing the allegation itself to be true, the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown has been taken on the legality of the procedure and sentence?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN,): In answer to the first Question of the hon. Baronet, I have to say Yes. In answer to the second Question, I have to say that Mr. M 'Leod, who acts as agent in St. Vincent for a Grenada newspaper called the Federalist, published in St. Vincent, by delivering a copy to the librarian of the public library, a number of the papers containing a scandalous attack upon the administration of Justice in the latter colony; he was, on refusing to make an apology to the satisfaction of the Court, committed to prison for 14 days as a first-class misdemeanant; in answer to the third Question, I have to say that I have not thought it necessary to consult the Law Officers of the Crown on this subject.

  BEHRING SEA.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether it is possible to at once lay before Parliament, or to publish in the Gazette, the Dispatch of the Government of the United States of America to their Ambassador in London, dated 10th May, and any reply which may have been made to it?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. G. CURZON,): Papers are now being prepared, and will, I hope, before long be available, which will include the Dispatch of the American Government and the reply which has been made to it. I do not think, however, that it would be desirable to publish

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  these two documents alone, since they will require to be read in connection with the previous correspondence to which they refer.

  GLANDERS.
  MR. HUDSON KEARLEY: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture (1) whether his attention has been directed to the death of a man in London on 19th July from glanders; (2) whether he is aware that a horse suffering from this dangerous disease has been kept alive for nearly a year by the Middlesex County Council, to the risk of other horses and men; and (3) whether in the event of that authority continuing to refuse compliance with their obligations, he will, under the powers possessed by the Board, compel the slaughter of this animal and charge the costs upon the local authority?
  MR. J. BIGWOODasked whether the right hon. Gentleman would state that the fact was that the horse in question belonged not to the County Council, but to a private individual?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE (Mr. WALTER LONG,): Certainly, Sir, I have not received any information as to the unfortunate occurrence mentioned in the first paragraph of the Question, and I do not understand that it has any connection with the case of the glandered horse to which the hon. Member subsequently refers; with regard to that horse, I am informed by the Middlesex County Council that they decline to order its slaughter, although they are willing to make and carry out all arrangements for the purpose, if the owner himself consents to its being killed; under existing circumstances I do not think I should be justified in adopting the course suggested by the hon. Member in the last paragraph of his Question.

  COLONIAL OFFICE CONFERENCES.
  MR. J. F. HOGAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, as there is now little likelihood of the Papers in connection with the recent conferences at the Colonial Office becoming effectively available before the close of the Session,
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  he would have any objection to briefly summarising the more important of the decisions and recommendations arrived at, having regard also to the fact that various unauthorised versions of the proceedings in conference with the Colonial Premiers have been circulated?
  MR. CHAMBERLAIN: A summary of the proceedings has been laid on the Table and will be distributed shortly.

  COLONIES (REPORTS).
  MR. HOGAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies why so few of the annual Reports on the Colonies have been issued this year; and whether, as their value largely depends on promptitude of publication, he will take steps to expedite their appearance?
  MR. CHAMBERLAIN: There has been no avoidable delay in the publication of the Annual Reports. Several are now in the press and will be issued very shortly.

  ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY.
  MR. D. MACALEESE: On behalf of the hon. Member for North Louth (Mr. T. M. HEALY), I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) whether the questions set at a competitive examination for head constable, held at the Royal Irish Constabulary Depôt, Dublin, on 29th June, were typewritten beforehand by a member of the Constabulary, if so, what is his name and rank, and where is he at present stationed; (2) can he say how long the candidate who got first place had been in charge of a station in his entire service prior to said examination to qualify him for the appointment; (3) will he also state if the examination papers of the Dublin Metropolitan police examination recently held were printed or typewritten; (4) has it come to his knowledge that in both forces an uneasiness exists as to possibility of examination papers reaching some of the candidates beforehand; and (5) will he direct strict provision to be made to guard against such a contingency in future competitions?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR,): The questions referred to in the first paragraph, which were

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  prepared by the Inspector General, were not typewritten by a member of the Constabulary, but by a confidential member of the Civil Staff attached to the office of Inspector General. The candidate who got first place at the recent examination had not previously been in charge of a station, nor was it necessary he should have been in order to qualify for promotion, provided he had other qualifications which, I am informed, this candidate possessed. With regard to the third paragraph, the papers in literary subjects used in examinations for promotion in the Metropolitan Police are prepared by the Civil Service Commissioners, and are under the control of their officers. Papers in police duties and drill are prepared by a Board of Police Officers, and typewritten or otherwise copied by mechanical process, by a confidential clerk attached to the office of the Chief Commissioner. No intimation has reached me, otherwise than through the representations made to me by the hon. and learned Member, of any uneasiness as to the possibility of examination papers being seen by some of the candidates beforehand, and I am assured both by the Inspector General and the Chief Commissioner that there is no such uneasiness in either force, as far as they are aware. Every precaution is used to secure secrecy, and every provision will continue to be made to guard against the contingency contemplated in the Question.

  IRISH LAND COMMISSION.
  MR. MCCARTAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state if any Land Commission Court valuers, now engaged in the County Down were Sub-Commissioners who fixed the first statutory term on the same holdings which they are now inspecting, in order to review the reductions made by other Sub-Commissioners for the second statutory term; and, if so, whether he will consider the desirability of advising the discontinuance of this objectionable practice?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I am informed that one of the Assistant Commissioners, who has recently been employed to value for the Land Commission in cases arising out of appeals from the decisions of Sub-Commissions fixing
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  fair rents for second statutory terms in the County Down, was one of the Court of the Sub-Commission who fixed the same rents for the first statutory term. I have no power to advise the Commissioners as to any action they may think fit to take, but I will call their attention to the hon. Member's Question.

  WREXHAM POST OFFICE.
  MR. W. T. HOWELL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the post office at Wrexham (population 50,000) is placed in the fifth scale of offices for postmen, but in the second scale for clerks; and whether he can see his way to remove this inequality?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. R. W. HANBURY,): The allocation of scales of pay for Postmen depends upon the size of the town in which the men work, the cost of living, and the value of outdoor labour in the locality; and the Postmen at Wrexham are included in the fifth scale. The pay of the Sorting Clerks is on the other hand regulated by the amount and character of the work performed, which varies, according to the size and importance of the place. No application respecting their wages appears to have reached the Postmaster General from the Postmen at Wrexham. Such an application would of course be duly considered.

  TOWN AND AUXILIARY POSTMEN.
  MR. HOWELL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether time for return to office after completed deliveries is allowed to count in the case of town and auxiliary rural postmen, but not allowed in the case of appointed rural postmen; and whether he can see his way to abolishing this distinction?
  MR. HANBURY: The Postmaster General is not aware that any such distinction as that referred to by the hon. Member is made. It is the rule for established rural postmen to return to the office after completing their work, and the time so occupied is counted as part of their regular attendance.

  ROYAL ORDNANCE FACTORIES.
  MR. H. O. ARNOLD-FORSTER: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether it is proposed to make, the appointment of the present acting head of the Royal Ordnance Factories permanent; and, if not, whether the War Office will consider the advisability of appointing to that important post a properly qualified officer, acquainted with the progress of Foreign armies and the general development of firearms, and capable of occupying in the Royal Ordnance Factories a position equal to that occupied by the superintendents of great manufacturing firms?
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Mr. POWELL-WILLIAMS,): If my hon. Friend refers in his Question to the existing vacancy for a Superintendent at Enfield, I have to say that the vacancy will be filled very shortly under new arrangements which have recently been sanctioned, and that every care will be taken to obtain the services of a thoroughly competent official, in all respects well fitted to take charge of a great manufacturing undertaking.

  POST OFFICE BICYCLES.
  SIR GEORGE OSBORNE MORGAN: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, on what grounds Edward Bithell (who for the last 15 months has occasionally been employed as a rural postman in the district of Minera, in the county of Denbigh), has been refused leave to ride his own bicycle while discharging his duties, and is consequently compelled either to walk many miles while doing so or to put up overnight at Minera, where the only accommodation obtainable, is at a public house; and whether the Postmaster General will reconsider his decision or direct an inquiry into the matter?
  MR. HANBURY: Edward Bithell is employed occasionally by the Postmaster of Wrexham to act as substitute for Rural Postmen when absent on annual or sick leave; he recently made application to be allowed to use his bicycle whenever he was so employed, but was informed that general authority could not be given; he has, however, permission to use his cycle on the walk
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  on which he is now employed, and similar authority would be given in the case of his employment on any other walk on which a cycle can be used with advantage; he has not been compelled to stay overnight at Minera; in fact the hours of the Minera post would not admit of his doing so.

  ROYAL ARTILLERY CADETS.
  SIR ANDREW SCOBLE: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether it is the fact that for the last three years all the Royal Artillery cadets, on leaving Woolwich, have been kept for three months without commissions; whether this is a departure from previous practice; and, whether, having regard to the fact that the last duty of the outgoing cadets this year was on guard at Buckingham Palace on Jubilee Day, their commissions may be dated on 22nd June, 1897.
  MR. BRODRICK: The former practice was to leave the passed cadets unemployed until vacancies in the corps occurred; and some had to wait many months. The new departure has been to commission all for whom vacancies have not fallen in three months after passing out of the academy. As regards the cadets who were on guard on Jubilee Day, it is felt to be undesirable that they should have a greater reward than the troops who were otherwise employed on that occasion.

  LAND LAW (IRELAND) ACTS.
  MR. MACALEESE: I beg to ask the Attorney General for Ireland whether a tenancy commenced in 1885, and made by agreement expressly subject to the Ulster custom, is a future tenancy within the meaning of the Land Law (Ireland) Acts; and, if so, whether the Government will consider the necessity of amending the law on the subject?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. J. ATKINSON,): This is a purely abstract question of law, and I must respectfully decline to answer it for that reason.

  RIVER BRENT.
  MR. J. G. WEIR: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that, on a recent Sunday, the rector of

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  Hanwell intimated from the pulpit that the Medical Officer of Health for the district reported that owing to the effluvia from the River Brent it was dangerous to the public health for persons to attend the parish church; and, having regard to the fact that the River Brent passes through populous parts of the western and north-western districts of the Metropolitan area, does he propose to take any steps to prevent the possible outbreak of an epidemic; and will he state whether any water company takes water from the River Brent?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. T. W. RUSSELL,): I answered a similar question yesterday, and there is nothing that I am able to add to it except that no water company takes water from the Brent that I am aware of.

  CYCLISTS' LAMPS.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, having regard to the fact that Mr. Justice Collins and Mr. Justice Ridley recently ruled that a constable is not empowed to stop a cyclist riding at night without a light, will he state what steps he proposes to take with a view to the protection of the public against cyclists who infringe the law in this respect; and whether he will consider the expediency of arranging for the registration of cycles and the fixing of a number on a conspicuous part of the machine?
  MR. T. SKEWES-COX: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been drawn to the Judgment of Mr. Justice Collins and Mr. Justice Ridley in Hatton v. Treeby, whereby it would appear that the police have no power of stopping cyclists who contravene the law as to the carrying of lights after sunset; and what steps he proposes to take in regard thereto?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOE THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEY,): The Judgment referred to states no new view of the law, I believe, and the suggestion for the registration of bicycles is not, I think, a practicable one. I propose, however, to consider during the recess whether it would not
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  be desirable to amend the law in some way, as, for example, by extending generally the provision at present in force in the metropolis which gives a constable power to arrest a person riding to the common danger, and which would, I think, cover cases of this kind where actual danger is caused.

  LETTER DELIVERY (GLASGOW).
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he has received a Memorial signed by 127 inhabitants of the parish of Applecross, Ross-shire, pointing out that letters posted in Glasgow, say on Tuesday morning, are not delivered in the Shieldaig district of the parish until Friday afternoon; and, whether there is any prospect that the request of the memorialists for a daily delivery of letters will be granted?
  MR. HANBURY: The Postmaster General has received the Memorial referred to. The post from Shieldaig to Kalnakill, which now works three days a week, is maintained at a considerable loss to the revenue, and the Postmaster General does not see his way to sanction a more frequent service.

  DEPTFORD VICTUALLING YARD.
  MR. MICHAEL AUSTIN: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether 13,000 pounds weight of chocolate, manufactured at Deptford victualling yard, has been condemned at Hong Kong contrary to the opinion of the superintendent of Deptford victualling yard, who considered that the chocolate ought not to have been condemned; and whether any portion of the chocolate in question was manufactured at Deptford by labourers employed at a wage of less than £1 per week?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. W. E. MACARTNEY,): The chocolate was condemned and sold at Hong Kong; a sample was sent home which, on examination at Deptford, was considered to be fit for issue. Steps have been taken by the Admiralty to prevent a recurrence of such loss; one man employed in the Chocolate Mill, an established labourer, received less than £1 per week (i.e. 19s.).

  VACCINATION (ROYAL COMMISSION).
  COLONEL DALBIAC: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether the delay in the issue of the various Appendices to the Report of the Royal Commission on Vaccination is due to the fact that some, if not all, of these Appendices have not yet been presented to Parliament; and whether the several Reports constituting these Appendices have been long in type, and what is the reason why they have not been yet presented?
  GENERAL LAURIE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has ascertained when the remainder of the Evidence and Special Reports on which the Final Report of the Royal Commission on Vaccination is based will be published, and what is the cause of the delay?
  SIR MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEY: The Appendices can be presented at once and will probably be circulated in two or three weeks. The delay is attributable to the fact that the necessity for a separate presentation of these Appendices was, through some misunderstanding, overlooked.

  VOLUNTEER CORPS (SCOTLAND).
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War if he will state the number of Volunteer Corps in Scotland with English Officers as Adjutants; and, in view of the recent difficulty which has arisen with the Airdrie Volunteers, will he arrange, as far as possible, to appoint Scottish Officers as Adjutants of Scottish Volunteer Corps?
  MR. BRODRICK: The nationality of individual officers is not considered in the case of Volunteer Adjutancies; but every effort is made to obtain as Adjutant of a Volunteer battalion an Officer from the Territorial regiment of which it forms a part. The great majority of Adjutants of Scottish Rifle Volunteers belong to Scottish regiments.

  MORECAMBE.
  COLONEL FOSTER: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, if he is aware that Kirk by Lonsdale and Settle, with populations of 1,802 and 2,253 respectively, have head offices and not sub-offices; whether he
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  can state on what grounds the Postmaster General has refused the application of the Morecambe Urban District Council that Morecambe should be made a head office instead of a sub-office under Lancaster as it is at present; and, if he is aware that Morecambe has a normal population of 10,000, which is increased during the summer months to nearly 30,000?
  MR. HANBURY: It is the fact that Kirk by Lonsdale and Settle are head post offices, while Morecambe ranks as a sub-post office under Lancaster. But the size of a town and its population are not the only conditions which have to be considered in determining the rank of a post office. The application of the Urban District Council that Morecambe should be made a head office was refused in October last on the ground that no improvement in the postal services would be gained by such a change, while additional expense would be involved; a further application from the Council has since been received, and will be considered in due course.

  MILITARY CANTEENS (LONDON).
  SIR WILFRID LAWSON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether the Military authorities have received any communication from Lord Peel, Chairman of the Licensing Commission, as to the irregular sale of drink at the Wellington Barracks, at the Woolwich Barracks, and at the canteen of the Corps of Commissionaires in the Strand; and, if so, whether any steps are being taken in the matter?
  MR. BRODRICK: A communication has been received from the Secretary to the Royal Commission, and inquiry is being made into the alleged cases of disobedience to the regulations for army canteens.

  ARMY MEDICAL SERVICE EXAMINATIONS.
  COLONEL DENNY: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War how many vacancies were advertised for the Army Medical Service examinations now in progress; how many candidates applied; and how many of these were rejected as physically unfit?
  MR. BRODRICK: Thirty-six vacancies were advertised, and 28 candidates applied. Two were rejected as medically unfit, three did not present themselves for the physical test, and one was otherwise disqualified.

  INDIAN MEDICAL SERVICE.
  COLONEL DENNY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India how many vacancies were advertised for the Indian Medical Service examinations now taking place; how many candidates applied; and how many of these have been rejected as physically unfit?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOE INDIA (Lord GEORGE HAMILTON,): Eighteen vacancies were advertised for the Indian Medical Service, 38 candidates applied; 5 of these were rejected as physically unfit.

  ATTORNEY GENERAL v. BEECH.
  CAPTAIN BAGOT: I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of of the decision given by the Divisional Court in the case of the Attorney General v. Beech, he proposes that the expenses of an appeal from that judgment should be met by the Treasury, or whether he intends to propose to Parliament a modification of the law?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir MICHAEL HICKS BEACH,): When the Treasury undertook to pay the costs of this case in the Divisional Court it was on a distinct understanding with the parties that if the Crown were successful, and they took the case to the Appeal Court, they should do so at their own expense. The Crown has been successful, and no reason has so far been shown to me for departing from the arrangement originally made.

  CANEWDON CHARITIES, ESSEX.
  MR. J. CARVELL WILLIAMS: I beg to ask the hon. Member for Thirsk, as Charity Commissioner, whether it has been reported to the Charity Commissioners that the Trustees of the Canewdon, Essex, Charities, have for many years annually voted out of the charity funds
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  a sum of money to the vicar of the parish for a treat to the children of the day schools, and that only part of that sum has been expended for that purpose, the rest being spent on hymn books and prayer books for the Church Sunday schools; whether such an appropriation of the charity funds is legal; and what action have the Charity Commissioners taken in the matter?
  MR. HANBURY: My hon. Friend has asked me to say that the Charity Commissioners understand that the Trustees of this charity have intrusted the vicar every year with the expenditure of a sum of £5 part of the funds in their hands applicable for the benefit of the poor of the parish. It is alleged that this sum or part of it has been expended in the manner stated. The action of the Trustees in this respect is irregular. A new scheme for the regulation of this charity is in draft and will shortly be established. That scheme contains a clause expressly prohibiting the practice in question.

  COTTAGE HOMES.
  MR. T. G. ASHTON: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board (1) whether, in view of the large number of boards of guardians which will have to make fresh provision for the children under their care, the Local Government Board is about to appoint a committee to visit and report upon the best cottage homes in the country; and, if so, whether the committee will be appointed at once; and (2) whether the Local Government Board will have a report made on the epileptic colonies in Germany established under the German Act of 1890; if so, whether the Board will cause photographs and plans of the buildings to be made and issued for the better understanding of the Report?
  MR. T. W. RUSSELL: I do not quite understand the first part of the Question or what contemplated committee the hon. Member refers to. In company with the experts of this Department, I visited many of the cottage homes myself, and I do not know that there is any necessity for a committee As to the second part of the Question, I will consider the matter.

  WELSH LAND COMMISSION.
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is now in a position to slate whether he will authorise an official Welsh translation of selected portions of the Report of the Welsh Land Commission?
  SIR MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEY: I am afraid I am unable to make any statement at present. I wrote to the Chairman of the Commission early in the year, asking for certain preliminary information as to the nature and bulk of the extracts, which I wished to have before communicating with the Treasury, but as yet I have not received his final reply.

  CRETE.
  MR. ROBERT WALLACE: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the number of British troops in and on the way to Crete, and the total number of troops of the other Great Powers similarly engaged; and what proportion British ships of war bear in number and class to the total flotilla of the Concert of Europe now in Cretan waters?
  MR. CURZON: According to the last Report received there were 1,500 British troops in Crete and one mountain battery. Four hundred men and ten officers are on their way there from Malta, which will bring the total up to 1,910. The total number of the troops of the other Great Powers is, according to our latest information, 3,800 and one mountain battery. The second Question should be addressed to the First Lord of the Admiralty.

  TURKEY AND GREECE.
  SIR ELLIS ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give the House, any information as to the peace negotiations regarding Turkey and Greece; and whether there is any foundation for the report that the British Government have demanded the evacuation of Thessaly before the indemnity has been guaranteed?
  MR. CURZON: In answer to the first Question I must refer my hon.
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  Friend to the statement made by the Prime Minister in another place yesterday; and, in answer to the second, there is no foundation for the report.
  SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT (addressing Mr. Speaker): May I ask you, Sir, whether there is any precedent for referring Members of this House for information on important Questions to what occurs in another place?
  MR. SPEAKER: I think I remember a precedent in the present Session, but it is not a question of order. The right hon. Gentleman is at liberty to give such information as he thinks proper.
  SIR W. LAWSON: What authentic report can we get of the Prime Minister's statements in another place?
  MR. CURZON: I suppose it is open to the hon. Baronet to look up Hansard?
  SIR W. LAWSON: But we want the information to-day in this House.
  SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTsaid he should be obliged if his right hon. Friend would give him information on one specific point—namely, was the House to understand from what occurred in another place that the practical Question which remained unsettled was that of a guarantee for the payment of an indemnity, and of a certain amount of foreign control over the finances of Greece?
  MR. CURZON: My hon. Friend is inviting me to make a repetition of what I understand is a great Parliamentary offence. I do not think it is part of my business to explain or comment on the Prime Minister's speech.
  MR. JOHN DILLONasked if the right hon. Gentleman would be good enough to bring down a shorthand copy of the Prime Minister's speech.
  [No reply was given.]

  BETTING PLACES.
  SIR JOHN KENNAWAY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the Commissioner of Metropolitan Police has decided not to take action against professional betting men carrying on their operations in athletic sports grounds in consequence of the recent judgment of the Court of Appeal in the Kempton Park Racecourse Inclosure case; and, whether, before this decision is finally sanctioned, he will obtain the opinion of

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  the Law Officers of the Crown as to the Judgment in question applying to athletic sports grounds?
  SIR MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEY: The Commissioner of Police is bound to regard the decision to which my right hon. Friend refers as an authoritative declaration of the law unless and until it is over-ruled by a Court of superior authority; and I am not aware of any distinction which renders the decision inapplicable to athletic sports grounds.

  BRITISH SOUTH AFRICA.
  DR. CLARK: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any payment has been made by the Chartered Company to the Government of the South African Republic for the cost incurred and the damage sustained by the Government and people of that Republic in consequence of the Jameson Raid; and, if not, what is the cause of the delay; and, whether there has been any correspondence with the Chartered Company on the matter; and, if so, will he lay the correspondence upon the Table of the House?
  MR. CHAMBERLAIN: I am awaiting a further communication from the Government of the South African Republic, pending the receipt of which I have not been in a position to present a claim for indemnity to the British South Africa Company.
  DR. CLARK: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is a fact that, after copies of the cablegrams between Mr. Rhodes and Dr. Harris, between July and December 1895, had been returned to Mr. Hawksley, a correspondence in regard to them took place between the Colonial Secretary and Mr. Hawksley; and, if so, whether he will lay this correspondence upon the Table of the House?
  MR. CHAMBERLAIN: Some correspondence took place when the cablegrams were shown to the Colonial Office, but I am unaware of any public or private object which would be served by its publication.

  TITHE MAPS.
  GENERAL LAURIE: I beg to ask the Attorney General whether tithe maps are the property of the parish councils or are
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  ecclesiastical documents, and as such exempt from the provisions of Section 17, Sub-section (8) of the Local Government Act 1894?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir RICHARD WEBSTER,): In the absence of special circumstances, I am of opinion that tithe maps are not ecclesiastical documents, but inasmuch as the question has been raised and is likely to be decided judicially, this view must be taken subject to the ultimate decision of the Court.

  BOOTH CHARITIES.
  MR. C. E. SCHWANN: I beg to ask the Attorney General, in reference to the Booth Charities—a a Bill relating to which (the Salford Corporation Bill) is now before Parliament—whether, in view of the growing wealth and importance of these charities, he would have any objection to submitting to Parliament the Report which he prepared for the information of the Lords' Committee?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL: Nothing would be gained by presenting the Report to Parliament. It is an official document, and I shall have no objection whatever to obtaining a copy for the hon. Member.

  DISTRICT COUNCILS.
  MR. SEALE-HAYNE: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he will favourably consider the claims of the chairmen of district councils, whose districts contain populations of not less than five thousand, to some recognition of their services similar to that which has been accorded to mayors of boroughs having even lesser populations, by the grant of jubilee medals?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): The Prime Minister informs me that he is not in a position to make any representations on the subject.

  CROFTERS' ACT.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he proposes to bring in a Bill next Session to give the benefits of the Crofters Act of 1886 to small tenants holding under lease in the crofting counties of the Highlands and Islands of Scotland?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I am afraid that I can only give the same answer to the same Question on the same subject which I gave to the hon. Gentleman yesterday—namely, that I cannot promise to introduce any Measure on the subject next Session.

  DUNGARVAN, LISMORE, AND WATERFORD RAILWAY.
  MR. J. C. FLYNNasked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he could make any statement with regard to the purchase of the Dungarvan, Lismore, and Waterford Railway, and what arrangement had been arrived at?
  MR. HANBURYsaid the whole question had become very complicated, owing to the Great Western Railway having given in an amended tender, and he was not at all sure that he should be able to give an answer during the present Session.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
  SUPPLY [19TH JULY].
  Resolution reported.
CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES, 1897–8.

  CLASS II.
  "That a sum, not exceeding £49,705, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1898, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of Her Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs."
  MR. DILLONmoved a reduction of the Foreign Minister's salary by £500, for the purpose of calling attention to the policy pursued by the Government in relation to the affairs of Crete. He said this was the last opportunity during the present Session, and probably the last opportunity for six months, on which the policy of the Foreign Office could be called to account, and yet they were calmly asked by the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to wait until an authentic copy of Lord Salisbury's statement was circulated to hon. Members. If this practice was to be
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  persevered in, the least the Under Secretary might do would be to obtain from the shorthand writer, or secure an efficient shorthand writer for the specific purpose, of taking down the words of wisdom which fell from Lord Salisbury's lips in another place, and bring slips of them down here for the information of Members of the House of Commons. They had been informed by the Under Secretary that the settlement of the Cretan Question, to which the great Powers of Europe had repeatedly pledged themselves, had been postponed pending the negotiations for peace between Greece and Turkey, that was to say, indefinitely postponed. Why must the giving of freedom to the people of Crete be made dependent on the conclusion of peace between Greece and Turkey? He saw no reason for that, but on the other hand the strongest reason why the Great Powers should not delay the settling of the comparatively small question of Crete until the wider question was settled. Disorder in Crete might be the cause of the breaking up or indefinite postponement of negotiations. Crete was a small country, and the Cretan question was a small question, but small as it was, Crete had proved already it might be the centre of disturbance which might spread throughout the whole East, and he could not understand why the Great Powers should not make up their minds, at all events, to settle this part of the Eastern Question which they had easily under their control, and which they were bound by innumerable pledges to settle. They had been told over and over again that the condition of Crete was rapidly improving, but within the last fortnight there had been a repetition as close as it could be of what occurred in August last. Just as negotiations were tending towards a close, suddenly in the face of protests from the Ambassadors of the Powers, Djevad Pasha was dispatched to take command of the Turkish Army in Crete. The Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs said it was to be hoped that the Porte would not persist in sending Djevad Pasha, because his arrival in the island might give rise to a false and dangerous impression. That declaration, however, had been treated with contempt. Djevad Pasha arrived at Canea with money and a quantity of arms and

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  amid Turkish rejoicing. The right hon. Gentleman, changing the tone of his previous answer, said that the Admirals in Crete had no ground for believing that Djevad Pasha had come on any political mission, but simply to take command of the Turkish troops. But every man in Crete knew that Djevad Pasha had gone to Crete on a mission similar to that undertaken by the commander sent from Constantinople last year—a mission for the purpose of intriguing against that autonomy which the Powers had pledged themselves to confer on the Cretan people. He feared that the results of the present operations would be to goad the Christians in Crete to take some foolish action in the belief that the pledges of the Powers had been broken, and that this would be made an excuse for the Powers to turn their backs upon the Cretans, and to leave them under the heels of their former oppressors. He called attention to the speech of Lord Salisbury in the House of Lords the previous day, as reported, in The Times ["Hear, hear!" from Mr. CURZON.] He did not think, in answer to that cheer, that the House of Commons should be sent to The Times newspaper for information on such a subject. If the speech of the Prime Minister reached the Cretans it would fill them with alarm and almost with despair. Lord Salisbury spoke in most uncertain language; it was no longer the language of the Leader of the House when he said that the faith of Europe had been pledged that never again would Turkey be allowed to interfere in the internal affairs of Crete. The meaning of Lord Salisbury's declarations was that the Powers, having done their best and not having succeeded according to their desires, they would turn their backs upon the Cretans—in fact, Lord Salisbury contemplated the breaking of that faith previously declared and the abandonment of Crete to Turkey. Lord Salisbury's language was the language of a man who had despaired of the situation in Crete and of granting autonomy to the people; and he was prepared to run away from his promises and to abandon the people of Crete. When the foreign troops landed in the month of February last, Crete was in a condition of absolute anarchy and confusion. Canea had been just burnt to
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  the ground, and it was stated in a Dispatch, which he should read, that the foreign troops were landed in the island in consequence of the proceedings of the Greeks. The Dispatch to which he referred was No. 130 in the last Blue-book on Cretan affairs. It was a telegram from Rear-Admiral Harris to the Admiralty, communicated February 15th.
  "Canea, Crete, February 15th 1897.
  "The Admirals of foreign vessels held a meeting this morning, when it was agreed that 100 men should be landed by each for the temporary protection of Canea. Under the force of present circumstances and operations of Greeks, I gave my concurrence. This proposal has the full approval of Turkish Officials."
  It was clear therefore that the foreign forces were landed, not for the purposes of protecting the Christians of Canea and Crete as had been asserted, but for the purpose of off-setting them against the operations of the Greeks. Therefore, whatever might come to the future of the people of Crete from the foreign occupation was due entirely, on the word of Rear-Admiral Harris himself, to the landing of troops in consequence of the operations of the Greeks. Now here was a definition, in the words of the Under Secretary of State himself, of the position of Crete as regarded the Powers of Europe in consequence of the landing of the foreign troops. In a speech on the 26th of February, which had been frequently quoted, the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs used the following words:—
  "Remember these Powers in August last, by the scheme I have mentioned, rendered themselves responsible for the present and the future of Crete, and the Powers of Europe in the execution of that task could not allow themselves to be superseded or to be set at naught."
  Now, that was an extremely important speech, and extremely important declaration; because it was a declaration that the powers of Europe—not the Sultan—would deliberately take upon themselves the responsibility for the present and the future of Crete; and, therefore, he held that all the anarchy, confusion, murder, incendiarism and riots which had occurred in Crete since the foreign occupation, in view of the declaration of the right hon. Gentleman, ought to be laid and must be laid at the doors of the Powers of Europe,

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  who, having made that declaration and landed their troops on the island, ought to have accepted the full responsibility of seeing that, at whatever cost, order was maintained and life and property decently secured, which they had not done. Having landed their troops and taken that extremely important step, the next step taken by the Powers was to offer the Cretan people a fast pledge of autonomy. Now in considering the position of Crete by the light of the dispatches he was about to read, and in considering this promise of autonomy and absolute freedom from interference by the Sultan in internal affairs, they must recall what happened in August last. On that occasion autonomy in a modified form was offered to the Cretan people. It was offered in the nature of an ultimatum, conditionally. It was said in a proclamation to the people of Crete,
  "If you lay down your arms and accept the constitution which the Powers now offer you, by a certain day, you shall have it, if not, take the consequences, the Powers will hand you over to the Turks!"
  that was in August last; and after much hesitation and protest—because they were then, as they had always been, strongly in favour of the annexation of Greece—the Cretan leaders finally decided to accept within the specified time the offer of the Great Powers—they gratefully accepted the offer of a constitution for what it was worth. What happened? They accepted the offer of autonomy in August last under coercion and threat, and the result was that no single one of the provisions which they had accepted was carried into effect, and within five or six months under the eyes of the Great Powers the whole island was turned into a pandemonium, and the condition of the people became infinitely worse than it was before the Cretan leaders accepted the constitution offered by the Powers. They must bear that in mind when judging of these people. After the landing of the Greek troops, the arrival of the Fleet, and the consequent landing of the European troops, the Great Powers of Europe came to a decision to make a fresh offer to the people of Crete—an offer which was a vast improvement on the offer made
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  before; and it had this further attraction, that it was an offer without condition. Instead of offering a constitution by way of ultimatum, as before, they made an unconditional offer of autonomy which was repeated in a number of Dispatches. He took first of all Dispatch No. 300, page 131, because that was the first Dispatch in which the announcement of this offer of autonomy to Crete was made. It was a telegraphic Dispatch from Consul Sir A. Biliotti to the Marquess of Salisbury from Canea, March 19, 10 p.m., received March 20, 8 a.m. It said:—
  "A Resolution dated the 5th (17th) March has been issued to the Cretan people to-day by the Admirals, stating that they proclaim and make known to the people of the island, under instructions from their respective Governments, that the Great Powers have formed an irrevocable decision to secure for Crete complete autonomy under the suzerainty of His Imperial Majesty the Sultan, and that it is well understood that, as regards the internal affairs of the island, the Cretans will be free from all control of the Porte."
  Now, what he would call the attention of the House to was this: there was no condition affixed to that offer. It did not say: "If you lay down your arms within a certain period." It was a proclamation without condition, not for the future but to operate immediately.
  "It is well understood as regards the internal affairs of the island the Cretans will be free from all control of the Porte."
  This was a statement made by all the Admirals, and it was stated in a proclamation made under the authority, and by the direction of their employers. Then it went on to say:—
  "The Proclamation proceeds to declare that the Powers are framing, in concert with each other, regulations for the working of the autonomous administration, which will restore order, develop the resources of the island, and without distinction of race or religion guarantee liberty and security of property to the Cretans."
  That was rather different language from that which was heard in the House of Lords yesterday. And now he turned to the Proclamation itself, enclosed in Dispatch 310, page 152. Sir Alfred Biliotti'a Dispatch contained some extremely

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  in teresting passages. It was dated Canea, March 20th, 1897:—
  "My Lord,—I have the honour to transmit herewith a copy of the text of the Proclamation of autonomy, dated the 17th inst., which was published yesterday: 'In the orginal draft of the Proclamation it was simply stated that the Powers would secure a complete autonomy under the suzerainty of the Sultan. I ventured to submit to the Admirals that such a declaration was not likely to satisfy the Christians, while it would have quite a different effect if it was explained, as in your Lordship's telegram to me of the 13th March, that while remaining under the suzerainty of the Sultan, the Cretans will be entirely free from the control of the Porto, as regards their internal affairs.'
  Now, those words could not be more categorical or more distinct.
  "It is well understood that, as regards the internal affairs of the island, the Cretans will be free from all control of the Porte."
  And yet, in the face of that, the Government had allowed Djevad Pasha to land, who proceeded at once to take upon himself the widest possible authority over the internal affairs of Crete, because one of the first things he said after landing was that he intended to extend the cordon around Canea—than which a more burning question could not be raised, or one more calculated to involve the whole country in a blaze of conflagration. ["Hear, hear!"] So much for the question of autonomy. He said that the promise of autonomy which had been made to the Cretan people was a promise of complete and absolute control of their own internal affairs without interference on behalf of the Sultan, and that it was unconditional in its terms. Yet already the pledge was broken on the very day that the Powers allowed a fresh official from Constantinople to land upon the soil of Crete and take command of the Turkish army, which ought to have been removed out of the island long ago. Here was a Dispatch of the 11th of April, in which Sir Alfred Biliotti reported that the Russian Consul had that afternoon interviewed about 500 insurgents:—
  "He advised them to accept the offer of autonomy, but they refused, saying that they knew by experience what the result would be."
  He would ask hon. Gentlemen and right hon. Gentlemen, could anything be more
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  touching than those words? ["Hear, hear!"]
  "And that they were fairly decided to adhere to the programme which they had set before themselves—'Union with Greece or death!'"
  These unfortunate men, having been deceived more than once before, because they knew what the result would be. But since then, discouraged and despairing because of the result of the war between Greece and Turkey, they had frankly accepted the offer of the Powers and confirmed the application to Crete of the principle of autonomy. What would be the result? Already there was abundant evidence that their fears, expressed in the Dispatch he had just read, were only too well grounded, and that there was the greatest possible danger that the pledges given then would be once more broken. ["Hear, hear!"] He would turn for one moment to the question of the removal of the Turkish troops. He said that in the Dispatches over and over again it had been promised that the Turkish troops should be removed from the island when the Greek troops had left it, and not only in Dispatches, but in speeches delivered in that House, and in answer to questions given by the right hon. Gentleman himself. Take this one answer, delivered in answer to a question on April 7th last. Mr. Curzon said: "We have not heard of the formal proposal." The question had reference to a proposal on the part of the Government of France to remove the Turkish garrison at once.
  "We have not heard of the formal proposal to remove the Turkish troops, addressed by the French Government. It is impossible to state at present when the withdrawal of the Turkish troops will take place, several of the powers having expressed their opinion that the withdrawal of the Greek forces should be an antecedent step. The initiative would, therefore, appear to rest with Greece."
  The conclusion they were entitled to draw from that reply, and from other statements in that House, was that as soon as the Greek troops were out of Crete, the Turkish troops would be made to follow. ["Hear, hear!"] In several Dispatches dealing with the subject, it plainly was then in the minds of the Government. What had happened? The last of the Greek troops left the island

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  on the 24th of May, but the Turkish garrison was there still; and not only that, but they had it from Lord Salisbury and the right hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary, that they were likely to remain, and instead of the period of their departure coming any nearer, it would appear to be indefinitely postponed. The presence of the Turkish garrison was, he believed, the one great obstacle to the settlement of the Cretan question, and Lord Salisbury himself held that view in May. The first necessary thing to be done was to convince the Cretan Christians that the Powers of Europe meant to give them freedom and to protect them against the oppression of the Turks. Members of the Government had eulogised the conduct of the Turkish troops, and the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs in particular had spoken highly of their conduct in Crete. The Dispatches, however, did not justify this praise. Commander Noel, in a Dispatch to Captain Custance, dated Suda Bay, February 8th, wrote:—
  "The district of Suda, since my arrival on the 2nd inst., has been, in common with the surrounding country, in a dreadful state of disorder and anarchy. Acute civil war has been raging between the Christian and Mussulman populations, accompanied by wholesale destruction of property, the Turkish authorities apparently not troubling themselves in the matter beyond the immediate precincts of Suda village, where, joining with the Mussulmans, they much aggravated the state of affairs.…. The Christian houses in Suda village were sot fire to, and soon after a general loot of all Christian property set in. This was principally carried out by the Turkish soldiery, who, issuing from the arsenal main gate, broke in, raided and ransacked the remaining Christian houses with undisguised brutality, returning with all manner of goods again into the arsenal, their officers meanwhile sitting inside the gates, apparently unconcerned."
  That was a sample of the Dispatches which must have been in the hands of the Under Secretary when he praised the conduct of the Turkish troops. The Dispatch which he had quoted, it should be remembered, described the situation in Crete before the Greek fleet arrived and the Greek troops landed. If this unhappy island should ever emerge from the state of anarchy, massacre, and burning which had been its normal condition for the last two centuries, it would be mainly due to the action of the Greeks, who had given the Cretan people their first chance of gaining liberty. The
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  present attitude of the Government with regard to the question of the withdrawal of the Turkish garrison amounted to a breach of faith towards that House and the Cretan people. Then with regard to the blockade, the Under Secretary had told the House that as long as the Greek troops remained in the island the blockade must be maintained, and in the Dispatches it was distinctly stated that it would cease as soon as the Greek troops were withdrawn. But three months had now elapsed since the withdrawal of these troops and the blockade was still maintained. He wanted to know what justification there was for that. Arms and ammunition were admitted freely into the island for the use of the Turkish troops but were not admitted for the use of the Christian population. What was the reason or excuse for this difference of treatment? They were told repeatedly in February by the right hon. Gentleman that the foreign warships had been sent to Canea to protect the Christians in that town; but they did not protect them until the Christian quarter was burnt to the ground. The instructions to the Commanders of the foreign warships were to protect English and foreign subjects, not the Cretan Christians. Captain Custance, writing to Admiral Sir J. Hopkins from the Barfleur, Canea, on Feb. 10, said:
  "I have just returned from meeting Consuls with Governor-General. Government should know that complete anarchy exists in the island. They should bear in mind that this was before the arrival of the Greek troops and before Prince George arrived with his fleet. Weak Governor General without reliable force cannot cope with existing condition. It is not to be expected that 300 foreign police can control island in a state of revolution. They are too late. … On the 3rd instant, at 5 p.m., I sent by the French cruiser Wattignies orders dated the 2nd instant to Suda for Scout and Nymphe, and in consequence of a communication from the Consul supplemented them later by telegraph as follows:—'Afford protection as far as possible to all foreign subjects who have no ship of war present.'"
  On the 4th inst. all the ships' captains met on board the Barfleur, and Captain Custance reported:
  "The subject discussed was the safety of the people at Halessa. The Captain of the Suchet wished to land men for the protection of the houses of the Consuls and named 100 men as the number to land for the protection of that of

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  France. I was so impressed with the dangers of landing an international force that I steadily resisted this, and determined that if the danger became acute the British Consul and his family must embark."
  "I would not take part in what might become the commencement of an armed intervention.. Besides, my policy was to discourage the landing of armed men from the ships."
  Then later on, after the burning of the town, he said:—
  "About 1,000 people were shipped in the course of the afternoon, which practically cleared out the whole Christian population.… The town was cleared of Bengbezi Arabs, to prevent looting, and the empty Christian quarter was guarded.… On Sunday, 17th inst., I landed at daylight, and found the situation in Canea was much improved, as the whole Christian population—some 5,000 in number—had migrated to the Greek islands; thus one disturbing element has been removed.…. At 3 a.m. on Monday, 18th inst., I received the following telegram.… 'Am sending Rear-Admiral, but I wish him in the meantime to bear in mind that an aggressive policy is not desirable, and that if fighting between Turks and others becomes general, your care must be for the lives and safeguarding of British subjects and interests, without taking an active part against either side.'"
  Those were the instructions sent out from England. How curiously they contrasted with the policy adopted afterwards by the British Admiral and troops. When the Christians were getting the worst of it, a telegram was sent out, on no account to interfere; but when the Turks were getting the worst of it, immediately the big guns of the British ships opened on the insurgents. ["Hear, hear!"] He would conclude by saying that his object in moving the reduction was to remind the Government of the definite and absolute and unconditional pledge they had given to the people of Crete, and to appeal to them not to adopt the spirit of Lord Salisbury's speech in the House of Lords the other day, merely because the Christian people were few in number, and were helpless against the whole power of the Turkish empire. He begged to move. ["Hear, hear!"]
  SIR ELLIS ASHMEAD-BARTLETTsaid the speech of the hon. Gentleman had been practically made on several previous occasions, and it had been over and over again satisfactorily disposed of. The hon. Gentleman laboured under a most grievous mistake as to his main premises.
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  To listen to him, one would think that all right was on the side of the Cretan Christians, and all wrong on the side of the Cretan Mussulmans. As a matter of fact, the Mussulmans were the injured and persecuted of the Cretans, and there were thousands of them at the present moment beleagured and almost starving, in the four principal seaport towns. Those unfortunate persons had been chased from their homes. Many of their friends and relatives had been murdered in cold blood. All their property had been taken from them; their land had been seized by the Christians, and there was not sufficient land near the towns from which they could obtain food for themselves, or pasturage for the few cattle they had remaining. The Christians, according to the statements made in the House by the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs, had been wandering about, murdering, outraging, and plundering their Mussulman neighbours when they got the opportunity. He had not seen altogether eye to eye with the Government in regard to this Eastern question, but, at the same time, when the hon. Gentleman accused the Prime Minister of abandoning the Cretans because he had pointed out the difficulties of dealing with the question, the hon. Gentleman surely did a great injustice to the Prime Minister. There were great difficulties in dealing with this question. The greatest difficulty of all was the hatred and jealousy between the two religions on the island, and that hatred and jealousy which had existed for several centuries could not be wiped out in a few weeks or months. He welcomed the proposal of the Government to draw a line of demarcation between the two creeds. He had ventured to point out six months ago that the only hope of bringing about peace on the island was to settle the Mussulmans in one part, and the Christians in the other, and to try to make, by mutual exchange, a settlement of property under those conditions, and to maintain a cordon of foreign troops for a year or two between the two districts on the island. There was a time when most Members of the House thought that the Ottoman Empire was waning, and that the Sick Man was moribund, but the late war had shown that those views were mistaken. Those

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  views were, to a certain extent, shared by her Majesty's Government, and he thought the Government went further than was wise in publicly declaring their intention to deal in this or that way with the Ottoman Government in Crete. To-day Turkey had shown herself to be a great, powerful and militant State, and she held almost the balance of power in Europe. Great nations like Russia and Germany were contending for an alliance with Turkey, and, therefore, it was idle for hon. Gentlemen to find fault with the Government because, like the rest of the world, they had realised the times had changed. But he rose specially to refer to statements that had been made on the part of the Government with regard to the principles on which they were going to deal with the questions at issue between Greece and Turkey. First, it was said that the question was one between Mussulmans and Christians, and that being so, that this country would never consent to territory which had been Christian becoming Mussulman. That statement was attributed to our Ambassador at Constantinople and to the Prime Minister, but he was not sure that the former had made it, as his friends had since attributed to Sir Philip Currie the use of the words "Turkish" instead of "Mussulman." Then the statement was modified to the effect that no Christian territory should ever fall under the rule of the Turk. He was not sure whether that was an accurate version of what was said. At any rate, he noticed that in the House of Lords yesterday the Prime Minister stated that no territory which was Greek should become Turkish, and the House would observe how the statement was graduated down. He wished to protest against any such principle being laid down in this or any other question. He wanted to know seriously whether this country, which had a hundred millions of Mussulman subjects, over sixty millions of whom were in India, was prepared to state to the world either that no territory which had been Christian should ever become Mussulman, or that no territory which was Christian should ever become Turkish. There could be no more indiscreet principle laid down. It would be fraught with the greatest danger and mischief for this country. The policy
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  adopted by this country and the reckless abuse that had been lavished in this country upon the Government of Turkey and the Mussulman religion until quite lately was well known throughout the Mussulman world, and constituted a great danger to our security. Were they going seriously to lay down the rule that a bad Christian was to be considered in preference to a good Mussulman? [Laughter and "Hear, hear!"] That was what it practically came to. It had been said with truth that the best Christians in the East were the Turkish people, and if they judged Christianity by its real works and moral qualities there was no doubt that the Turks were better Christians than the large proportion of the so-called Christians of the East. He believed as strongly as any Member of the House that Christianity was the religion, and that under it mankind could reach their highest development and well-being. But he also believed that one of the chief principles of Christianity was the doing of full justice to other religions—a principle which hon. Members opposite entirely ignored in the case of Mussulmans. If we persisted in our hostility to Turkey there would be a very serious Nemesis before us in our Indian Empire. Could Turkey be blamed for trying to establish a Mussulman revival throughout the East? Would the Roman Catholics be blamed if they organised to defend the Pope or their own religion when attacked. Would the Anglican Church throughout the world be condemned because it resisted a threatened attack by counter organisation. They heard a great deal about the pressure of Germany with regard to peace negotiations in order to obtain control over the finances of Greece. That was treated as if it were a gross outrage upon Greece, and as if it were done out of a spirit of mischiefmaking on the part of the German Government. He held that the only possibility of establishing such a financial equilibrium in Greece as would enable her to carry on her Government and meet her responsibilities was by establishing some foreign, control. He could quote many extracts from the opinions of prominent Phil-Hellenes to prove how corrupt and bad the modern Greek administration and finances were. Thus

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  Mr. E. J. Dillon, writing in the Contemporary Review for July, said:—
  "When a Greek becomes Prime Minister he is the sold of the Government, and virtually the dictator of the kingdom for the time being.… Along with the Leader come his faithful followers, and their name is legion. They fill up every post of emolument, every place of trust, every position of power or influence, every nook, cranny, and crevice in the machine of State. To make room for these saviours of their country, every official and employé in the kingdom is turned adrift.… There is not a postman, a schoolmaster, nay, not even a schoolmistress or scavenger, who is not summarily dismissed to make rom for the rival candidates.…. The relations, comrades, acquaintances, and oven the servants of the Deputies on the right side of the House are the spoiled children of fortune as long as their political day lasts. All things are possible to them. Like constitutional monarchs of the bettor class, they can do no wrong, or at least none that is punished by the Law Courts.…. The administration of the law is equally corrupt. Yet evenhanded justice is the corner-stone of the modern State."
  The opinion of this country was totally different from what it was six months or a year ago in regard to these questions, and that being so, the Government might naturally be excused if in the tone of their utterances in this House there had been a change. He urged upon the Government and the House that whatever their feelings or prejudices might be, they should never forget this great vital fact, that the Sovereign of this country ruled over a hundred million of Mussulman subjects.
  MR. FLYNNsaid that one wondered when listening to the hon. Member's speech whether there had ever been such a thing as the Bulgarian atrocities, or the more recent massacres in Armenia, at which civilisation stood aghast, or whether all they had read on these subjects were the mere invention of newspaper correspondents.
  SIR ELLIS ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: Nine-tenths of it is.
  MR. FLYNNsupposed that in that case the history of the Bulgarian atrocities would have to be re-written. He congratulated the hon. Member on his defence of Turkey, and of the deeds done
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  in the name of and by the authority of that infamous Power. In stating that the Cretan difficulty was based on religious animosities, the hon. Member ignored the fact that in Thessaly since it became a province of Greece the Mussulmans and Christians had lived peaceably side by side. There must have been something else behind the position of affairs in Crete. In this matter history was repeating itself, and to-day, in the same way as twelve months ago, the Turkish authorities were seeking to neutralise the promised reforms, and by sending Djevad Pasha to the island to prove to the unfortunate Cretans that the promised autonomy was a mockery, and that there was no intention to carry out the solemn undertaking of the Powers. The reforms promised last August, after scenes of bloodshed and massacre, were poisoned at their source by the treachery of the Turkish Government. In this matter they were not dependent upon the statements of newspaper correspondents, they had the Dispatches of the Government officials themselves. With regard to the non-execution of the August reforms Sir Philip Currie wrote to Lord Salisbury on January 6 this year:—
  "By my instructions Mr. Block made verbal representations to the Foreign Minister in the same sense, and pointed out how ill-advised was the action of the Ottoman Government in the matter, as was shown by the growing discontent in Crete at the non-execution of the arrangements of August last, and by the renewal of disturbances in the island, which were caused mainly by the dilatory and obstructive attitude of the Porte. In reply, Tewfik Pasha stated that he would do his best to procure a favourable decision."
  A little later Sir A. Biliotti expressed himself forcibly on this point. He wrote:—
  "The Christians are convinced, and all their proceedings are marked by that conviction, that all the incidents which trouble the public peace are devices of the native Mussulmans to prevent the execution of the promised reforms. I do not deny that the attitude of the authorities at Constantinople may have such an effect on the low class of Cretan Mussulmans; but it is far from being so with the educated class, who are as, if not more, anxious than the Christians that the intended reforms should be carried out without delay. In fact, they know that they have nothing to hope from Constantinople, and that the only protection of the minority to which they belong lies in the promised reforms. On the other hand, I have observed with the greatest pleasure that the

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  Christians laid down their arms at the fist recommendation of the Consuls to do so, which proves a sincere desire on their part to live in peace. When the Christians were taking up arms in former times they used to remain for weeks, even for months, on the mountains in spite of the entreaties of the Consuls. Therefore, the Christians and the Mussulmans are respectively well disposed, but there is such an insuperable distrust on both sides, that they can never come to a mutual understanding."
  By that Dispatch from a representative who had not been conspicuously marked by any undue preference for the Cretan Christians two things were proved. First, that the hon. Member for Sheffield was wrong in saying that the Mussulmans of Crete were more peaceful than the Christians, and that the majority of them were not as anxious for these reforms as the Christians were; and, secondly, that it was apparent to Consul Biliotti that the authorities at Constantinople were doing all they could to stir up disturbances in Crete, with a view of preventing the carrying out of the reforms promised under the seal of the Great Powers of Europe. A month later, on the 19th of February, Colonel Chermside wrote to Sir Philip Currie:—
  "The clear-sighted observers were aware that both factions were considerably exhausted—were tired of the chronic state of insecurity—and that prompt and firm pacific action might result in the bulk of the people lending less willing ears to the agitators of both religious creeds. The Porte failed to accept loyally the arrangement, and to recognise the importance, in its own interest, of attempting to insure tranquillity by its prompt application. I am not inclined to question the statement that Saad-ed-Din Pasha had secret instructions to foster Moslem opposition to the introduction of the reforms."
  There was nothing in contemporary history more clearly and abundantly proved than the hostile attitude of the Sultan towards these reforms. With regard to the reorganisation of the gendarmerie, the European officers sent to form the Commission were strongly of opinion that it was absolutely necessary that a large foreign element should compose the force. The four Commissioners wrote last December to the Ambassadors:—
  "The work of the Commission being so far advanced as to admit of the necessary steps being taken to enrol the men for the five companies which are urgently needed, we beg you to press the Sublime Porte to send instructions
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  to the Ottoman Delegates to agree to the admission of the non-Ottoman element, in conformity with the provisions of Article 13 of our Scheme. We are firmly convinced by our experience here that this element is absolutely necessary. The Mussulman and Christian deputies insist on a wide application of this Article."
  What was the reply?
  "To the representations of the Ambassadors the Porte replies that the pay of the gendarmes is so small that the engagement of foreigners would be almost impossible, and that, moreover, the only foreigners admissible [rules?] would be Slavs of the Balkan States, but that among them the Montenegrins are extremely unpopular in Crete. That it is the duty of the Commission to take into consideration the views and the wishes of the Cretans."
  The Orthodox Bishops, the official representatives of the much-maligned Christian population, wrote to Consul Biliotti:—
  "The Cretan people has accepted with gratitude, and awaits with entire confidence, all decisions of the Great Powers intended to insure its true welfare; but the growing opposition of the Central Government and the native Mussulman element to the will of Europe has unhappily resulted in a relaxation of public order, and even threatens to produce a very critical situation in the island. In the face of such a crisis, the Christian population believes that only the prompt reorganisation of the gendarmerie can stop the advance of this peril …… That being so, we think that, pending the reorganisation of the gendarmerie, prompt and vigorous steps should be taken to prevent the recurrence of such disasters."
  Sir P. Currie, on the same point, states—
  "In view of the unanimous opinion of the Military Attachés that a non-Ottoman element should be recruited, the Ambassadors instructed their Dragomans to insist on the principle that strangers ('étrangers à l'Île') should be admitted, and that it should be left to the Commission to select men in accordance with the wishes of the population and the resources of the island. The Foreign Minister replied that the Council of Ministers must maintain its refusal to allow the admission of foreigners as non-commissioned officers and men."
  Finally, however, the Porte consented that something should be done, but it was then too late, the gendarmerie was never properly established. It was only a few months in existence when it was disbanded, and the island had been handed over once more to disorder and anarchy. If the unfortunate Cretans should be handed over again to disorder, bloodshed, outrage and anarchy, if they again

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  should become the prey of the unspeakable Turk, the responsibility of the Foreign Office would be a heavy one and a responsibility which he should be very sorry indeed to share.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. G. CURZON,)said the topics with which the speeches of hon. Members opposite dealt were topics of no recent interest, and he could not see any advantage in now coming before the House and, so to speak, dissecting a corpse. And when he observed that the hon. Member for East Mayo had not been able to persuade more than 11 of his colleagues to listen to his utterances, and when he observed further similar want of interest taken in the hon. Member's arguments on both sides of the House, it occurred to him that there was no particular reason why he should be called upon to make any lengthened statement as to the views of the Government, the more as it was only a fortnight ago yesterday that it was his duty to make a somewhat lengthened speech, and many hon. Members also spoke on the same subject. Whatever merits the speech of the hon. Member for East Mayo had, he was sure the hon. Member would be the last to claim for it the merit of novelty. He had made the same speech so often that he must by this time be getting tired of it himself, and the only reason he could imagine for delivering it again was that he would not have another opportunity for six months of making the same speech on the floor of the House. He did not propose to repeat his defence, and he would only, with the permisson of the House, allude to those particular questions raised in which there was any novelty or which appeared to call for further information. The first question was how it was that the Powers who had taken in hand the settlement of this question were so slow about the adjustment of the Cretan aspect of it, and how it was the Turkish troops were still in the island, and why the scheme of autonomy had not yet been brought into operation. He thought he had adumbrated the reply to this in the remarks he made a fortnight ago. This question of the autonomy of Crete was a question which had to be settled not merely by the Admirals in waters surrounding the island or by the
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  Consuls on shore, but by the representatives of the Powers at Constantinople. It was not merely a military or a naval question or a question of police or of local administration; it was a political question of the very highest importance, which, of course, would have to be discussed and settled at Constantinople. Surely the hon. Member himself, with his keen sympathies for the suffering Greeks, and in his desire that they might be extricated from the unhappy position in which the war had left them, would admit that the evacuation question was a far more important question for the moment than the setting up of autonomy in Crete. That was the view of the foreign representatives. They were engaged on a work of the most consummate importance, the future of Greece and the peace of Europe, and only when they had settled that, as he hoped they might succeed in doing, would they be able to take up the smaller but not unimportant question of the future of the island of Crete. The next point was the question of the mission of Djevad Pasha. Now the other day they had a Debate on another subject in which the hon. Member for Northampton enlightened, but did not astonish the House, by saying that he seemed to be living in a world of illusions. The hon. Member for East Mayo seemed for the last six months, in relation to Crete, to have been living in a world of mare's-nests created by himself. [Laughter.] One after another these mare' s-nests had been brought before the House by him, and it had been part of his duty relentlessly to expose them. Undeterred by a long career of failures, not marked hitherto by a single success, the hon. Gentleman came down again with another mare's-nest, which was the mission of Djevad Pasha. Djevad Pasha, as he informed the House, had gone to the island as commander of the Turkish troops. It was true he stated that his arrival there was deprecated because it would create a false impression. That was obvious. The arrival of a military officer of his high distinction and previous career was, of course, calculated to elate the Mussulmans in the island, and the Powers would have been very glad indeed if he had not been dispatched; but the information he had given to the House showed that since his arrival Djevad

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  Pasha had not been discharging functions beyond those of his military post. He had been acting in concert with the Admirals, and if he continued to act in the same spirit there was no reason whatever why his presence in the island should be a source of further trouble. Then the next question was that of the attitude of the Admirals in relation to the protection of life and property. The hon. Member seemed to think he made a great point when he asked him how it was they allowed arms and ammunition to be landed for the Turkish troops but did not allow them to be landed for the insurgents. There was no parity between the two cases. The insurgents in the island were not defending anybody, they were not protecting anybody. On the contrary, they were acting entirely on the offensive. They were attacking, whenever they got the opportunity, the large Mussulman population of the towns and the Turkish troops themselves, and they had even attacked the detachments that represent the Great Powers. On the other hand, the Turkish troops were acting as a garrison responsible for the life and safety of enormous aggregations of people of their own religious faith, and as long as that garrison remained there, whether their presence was right or wrong, to suppose that they should be left without arms or ammunition was so ridiculous that he was sure the hon. Member himself on reflection would not suggest it as possible. The duty of the Admirals from the start had been directed to the prohibition of entry to the island of any arms or ammunition that might be used for the purposes of the insurrection, and he believed that both in carrying out that mission and in regard to the introduction of food supplies they had shown the most scrupulous fairness all round. There was one charge, amongst many false charges which the hon. Member was so fond of directing against the Admirals, that he thought they had a particular right to resent, and that was the charge that they had played into the hands of Turkey and gone against the Christians. Now, when it was remembered that the Admirals had for weeks past been in friendly communication with the leaders of the insurgents, that they had repeatedly warned them in advance of attacks likely to be made upon them by the Cretan Mahomedan irregulars, that they had
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  given them every facility for meeting in assembly and expressing their views, that they had provided them with stores and provisions; and further, when one remembered their attitude towards the Turks, that they had instructions to prevent the landing of any further Turkish troops, it seemed grotesque, and more than grotesque, it seemed cruelly unfair, that the hon. Gentleman should accuse these officers of such a charge. For his own part, he could not conceive a more delicate and painful task than that which had devolved on the representatives of the Powers in Crete and in Cretan waters during the last eight or nine months, and they ought to receive encouragement instead of unfair criticism from the representatives of the people of this country in the House of Commons. [Cheers.] He had only one other observation to make, and that was with regard to the wider charge of perfidy which the hon. Member had brought against the Government and the Powers. Over and over again he had heard statements like this—that "the Powers are going to lease Crete under the heel of the oppressor" that "they are going to break faith with the Cretan people," that "Lord Salisbury was running away from his promises." Of course, if the hon. Gentleman persisted in thinking that the Cabinets and Statesmen and Foreign Ministers of Europe were deliberately playing a false game by making pledges in the sight of Europe which they had no intention of fulfilling, but proposed to break—in that case it was no good arguing with him; but such a suspicion, he ventured to say, was not shared by a single other man in the House—[Mr. MACNEILL: "Oh, yes!"]—with possibly one exception. [Laughter.] He had only to say, as he had said before, that he believed there was not a pledge or promise from which one of the Powers had any desire to withdraw. Perhaps six months hence, when the hon. Member for East Mayo had another opportunity of making, not the same speech, but another on the same subject, he might have reason to regret the accusations he had so unfairly brought against the representatives of the Powers of Europe.
  SIR ROBERT REIDsaid that the character of the explanation offered by the right hon. Gentleman was substantially the same

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  as he had offered during the past six months. They did not seem, as far as he could judge, to be getting one inch nearer the consummation of what they all wanted to see in Crete than they were six months ago. The right hon. Gentleman had repeatedly pointed to the state of things in Crete, but Lord Salisbury himself had described the condition of affairs there a few months ago as a state of anarchy; and during the whole of that time the right hon. Gentleman would not contend that the wrongs had been one-sided on the part of the Christians in Crete. The right hon. Gentleman had at different times portrayed the insurgents in Crete as persons of a rather ferocious temper, and he had attributed to them some part of the blame for the anarchy that had taken place. Twelve months ago the Cretans expressed the greatest readiness to accept the Constitution which was offered to them by the Powers. Four months passed after that expression of that readiness, but there was some influence at work which prevented the unfortunate Christians from being able to reap the fruits of that Constitution. It was not surprising that in the circumstances they rose in arms; and what had been the position taken up by the Government? There had been a blockade, which was in the first place stated to be due to the presence of Greek troops in Crete, and the purpose of the blockade was announced to be the securing of the withdrawal of the Greek troops. But the Greek troops had been withdrawn and the blockade still continued against the importation of arms. The right hon. Gentleman said that the object of the blockade with regard to arms was to prevent arms from being obtained in support of the insurrection. The fleet of this country was being used, by the admission of the Government, to prevent the importation of arms in aid of the insurrection. That was a novel step for the British Government to adopt in regard to any country; it was not only novel, but, to his mind, it was absolutely unjustifiaable in the case of Turkey, because the insurrection was one against an unbearable tyranny which had existed for centuries in that island. Not only so, but it was an insurrection against a tyranny which had been emphasised in the strongest degree within the last 20 or 30 years, and it had
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  never been more brutal than within the last 10 or 15 years. They therefore found that the Government had adopted a policy which differed from anything that had been adopted in the earlier part of the Session. They were using the British fleet to prevent arms and ammunition from being placed in the hands of persons who were rebels against Turkey, and at the same time allowing the importation of arms for the assistance of the Turkish troops. That was a one-sided policy; the Government were sapping the military resources of the insurgents as against the Turkish authorities. The right hon. Gentleman said that there were attacks made by the irregulars. There was no doubt about it, and they were not prevented from getting arms and ammunition.
  MR. CURZONsaid that in Canea all the irregulars were disarmed, and in Candia an order was procured from the Turkish Governor to the effect that no one should be allowed to carry arms at all.
  SIR R. REIDasked whether he was not right in saying that since the order there had been raids and conflicts between the irregulars and the insurgents? [Mr. CURZON dissented.] He was glad to note the contradiction, but his recollection was different. He was under the impression that since the disarming order those persons had either obtained arms from the Turkish troops or from confederates in the towns, and had used them for the purpose of attacking the insurgents. It was admitted by the Government, however, that while the Turks were allowed to have a supply of arms and ammunition the insurgents were not allowed to have a supply. Notwithstanding the explanations of the right hon. Gentleman, therefore, he described this as taking sides in the controversy. They heard a great deal at the beginning of the Session as to the intentions of the Government with reference to the withdrawal of the Turkish troops, and it was felt that if the Turkish troops were removed, and some proper force substituted, it would be comparatively easy to carry out the work of pacification. The people in Crete were under the deepest anxiety with regard to these Turkish troops, because, notwithstanding the apprehension to the contrary expressed by the

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  right hon. Gentleman, they knew that one of the regiments implicated in the frightful massacres in Armenia had been landed in Crete; and it was hard to convince the people to lay down their arms in the presence of this terrible soldiery. He should be glad to hear from the Government an expression of their views that the Turkish troops would have to be withdrawn. If they were not, what was the prospect of peace in Crete? If the Government were going to prevent the insurgents from getting arms, the correlative duty was imposed upon them to remedy their grievances. They had no right to disarm the population who were fighting in what they believed to be a just cause, or to prevent them from having access to munitions of war in the face of an armed enemy, unless they were prepared to see justice was done to them. We were, indeed, placed in an absolutely false position. The reason was because we had tied ourselves to the tail of the European Concert, and were not able to move either hand or foot without the consent of the other Powers, who, in their views, were largely reactionary. The independent voice and force of this country had been sacrificed to a supposed necessity for a strict alliance among all the Powers. In past times the Liberal policy, and he thought the Conservative policy also, had been, while considerate to foreign nations, never to yield up our independent standpoint or to fetter our action. This view had been expressed by the Leader of the Opposition in his speeches outside the House. [Ironical Ministerial cheers.] For his own part, he expressed deep regret that this matter had not been taken up in the spirit of his right hon. Friend's speeches, and brought to a fair issue on the floor of the House] of Commons—as to whether we were willing to consent any longer to the power and the influence of Great Britain, which had always in past times been used in favour of freedom, being neutralised by this unhappy and ineffectual Concert. He believed that if a fair opportunity were given of testing the opinion of the House many hon. Gentlemen would be found to approve of what he said—viz., that the Government were taking sides against the insurgents in Crete without at the same time being willing to take
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  the responsibility of rectifying their grievances. ["Hear, hear!"]
  MR. COURTNEYsaid he entered into this discussion with great hesitation. But he should be most reluctant to let it be supposed that sympathy with Crete was confined to one side of the House. Although he had no authority to speak for others, he was quite sure there were many on the Government side of the House as well as on the Opposition side, who watched with anxiety and concern the slow development of the tragedy of Crete, and who were desirous of seeing some demonstration, not only of knowledge and good will, but also of energy which would bring about the conclusion of this tragedy. ["Hear, hear!"] They did not cherish illusions about the condition and merits of different parties in Crete. The hon. Member for Ecclesall, like many other persons, thought the Cretans were always wrong and the others always right. He had no such feeling. But let them remember this—that for two centuries the Turks had had dominion and authority in Crete; and what was the result? They had had their own way all that time, but there had never been anything like good government or contentment in the island. Grant the worst that could be said of the qualities of the Cretan Christians, it must be admitted that those who had had charge were somewhat responsible for the condition in which they were to be found. That had led, no doubt, to the decision of the Powers, in which Lord Salisbury concurred and which he helped probably to promote. In spite of the recent successes of the Turkish army against the Greek army, they all recognised who had any eye on history that the Turkish power was a waning power; bit by bit some portion of its territory was taken from Turkish dominion, and it did not go back again. Now the decision, as they understood it of the Concert of Europe with respect to Crete was that the time had come when Crete should be removed from the authority and dominion of Turkey. It was true that the Turk was to remain as the feudal lord, but with respect to internal administration he was to have nothing to do with it. The freedom of Crete was the one policy which the Government expressed in that House

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  and which the Powers of Europe undertook to carry through in concert together. Now, was that policy going forward? That was the real question, which was put, not in opposition to the Government, nor in any attempt to hamper them, but rather to strengthen. That was the question they desired to put. Was this matter going forward? He did not believe there was a man in England, or in Europe, who understood the situation in South-east Europe better than Lord Salisbury. His analysis of the case was perfect; but some of them did wish that, with his thorough knowledge and clear conception of the Powers in contest, and with his foresight of the inevitable, he would also be able to demonstrate something of the energy of purpose that would bring about the result he aimed at and desired as much as they themselves. ["Hear, hear!"] Now, the hon. Member for Ecclesall recognised that there had been a change in tone, and they must all recognise it. That change in tone was most deplorable. Not only did it indicate a want of resolution or possible want of resolution on the part of England, but it indicated something that would tell upon the resolution of the Concert of Europe. Their whole trust in the accomplishment of what they desired depended largely, if not exclusively, on the maintenance of the position of England in the Concert, and there was some feeling of apprehension—it might be unjustified apprehension, but it was an apprehension which had something to say for itself—that we were not doing all we might, nor all that we could or should do, whenever this discussion arose. ["Hear, hear!"] With respect to the matter of the blockade. There was a blockade now, limited to a blockade of arms against the insurgents; and the Under Secretary said, quite naturally, it would be absurd to suppose that any other control could take place than that. But was he (Mr. Courtney) right or wrong in thinking that when these latter troubles arose, and Count Kalnoky wanted to establish a blockade which would leave the Turks free to bring in their arms, the other Powers agreed to the proposal, but Lord Salisbury refused to agree to a proposal which he thought one-sided? The blockade was subsequently agreed to because the situation had changed and
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  it was thought necessary to prevent the hostile operations which were begun by the intrusion of the Greek army. But inasmuch as that intrusion of the Greek army had ceased, they had now gone back to the status quo ante; they were now in precisely the same position as when Lord Salisbury refused to accede to the Austrian proposal. If it was unfair and one-sided then, was it not unfair and one-sided now? We were now doing what Count Kalnoky wanted to have done and we would not do; but in his opinion the reasons that defeated this policy when it was first proposed should operate to prevent its maintenance at this moment. ["Hear, hear!"] In the settlement of Crete they all desired that the Turkish troops should disappear; but they found a difficulty in getting them away. Well, they might help the process of getting the Turkish troops away by stopping the supply of arms, for, after all, the Turks would be no worse off than the people who were opposed to them. If they wanted to get Crete clear of the Turkish troops, the establishment of a blockade of both sides, or neither side, would surely be some help to a solution of the difficulty. The problem was not incapable of being solved. Had we not a Turkish island in our own hands, and did we not maintain peace there among a population divided into Mussulmans and Christians as in Crete? Possibly the elements there were not so acutely conflicting and the traditions were not so savage; but it was quite clear from what we had done in Cyprus that if we could introduce into Crete a European governor with a sufficient force at his back—partly recruited, perhaps largely recruited, at first outside Crete—we should have a fair prospect of the same establishment of order and peace in Crete as we had established in Cyprus. [Cheers.] But in order to do that we must make up our minds not only to wish but to be ready to do something to bring it about. We must make up our minds either to give a little money or to guarantee a little money. We could not start a régime that would bring the island to order without money, and we must promote the appointment of a governor able to control. He did not know how the situation stood with regard to M. Droz, but they would be ready to wait with hope and with great faith if

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  they could hear language that would confirm them in the belief that all was being done to bring this about that could possibly be done. ["Hear, hear!"] The Under Secretary had said,
  "Are you accusing the Great Powers of Europe? Is there anybody ready here to ascribe perfidy to the allied rowers?"
  Let them take a more reasonable and clear-sighted view. The different Powers of Europe had entered into the Concert with different degrees of desire for the end; and if events had happened which had diminished—he would not say the desire, but the possibly reluctant consent of one of the Powers to carry forward the Concert, and if the other Powers were saying, "Oh, because this and that one will not go on with this work we also cannot go on," they could not help detecting a certain want of resolution and thoroughness of purpose which was the root of all their anxieties. ["Hear, hear!"] He did not deny that the Concert of Europe had its merits; but he thought it was the duty of England, if she entered into it, to enter it with a clear notion of what she desired and a determination to attain her object, and to secure that, if the possibility of carrying it through became interrupted, she should be able to retire from the Concert. It was said in a former period of Greek uprising, when quasi concerts were going on, that we were much favoured by one astute Power which found in the multiplication of conferences and congresses an admirable means of sterilising the energy of every single Power which entered into the combination. Do not let our energy be sterilised. Let it be manifest here and throughout Europe that what we had entered upon we intended to carry through; at all events, that we would not be a party to a combination which, professedly desiring the result we ourselves desired, yet did nothing to bring about that result, showing too often signs of feebleness and almost a readiness to abandon this work which we had undertaken. [Cheers.]
  MR. MICHAEL DAVITTsaid he had no intention of continuing the Debate on the Cretan Question. He wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman to reply to the appeal made him in January from the Irish Benches on behalf of the Egyptian exiles in Ceylon.
  MR. STUART-WORTLEYasked whether it was in order to introduce this Question. Was not the reduction of the Vote moved for the purpose of discussing the Cretan Question?
  MR. SPEAKERsaid there was no specific mention of Crete in the Question before the House, which was the reduction of the salary of the Foreign Secretary.
  MR. DAVITTresuming, said the right hon. Gentleman had been presented with a memorial which had been widely read by hon. Members on both sides of the House and with much sympathy. These men had been in exile during the last 14 or 15 years, been compelled to live in a climate notorious for its humidity, the effects of which upon natives of one of the driest climates in the world could be well understood. He had been told by people who had visited these Egyptian exiles that they were all suffering from rheumatism. That fact alone ought to influence the Government to give a favourable response to the appeal that they had addressed to Her Majesty and Lord Salisbury. These men were approaching the end of their lives, and in pathetic language they asked to have the poor privilege of returning near to their native land in order that they might have an opportunity of seeing their grandchildren, born since their deportation. They declared that they had abandoned their early political ambitions and projects, and pledged their words as soldiers and gentlemen, that if they were allowed to go to Cyprus they would take no part whatever in any agitation against what he hoped would be only the temporary domination of England in Egypt. On both sides of the House there existed a strong feeling that these men's request ought to be acceded to. As yet the Government had not extended much sympathy to prisoners in this memorable year, which had supplied them with an opportunity of exercising acts of clemency which would, he believed, have been exercised in similar circumstances by any other Government in Europe or Asia.
  MR. LABOUCHEREhoped that the Government would consider this matter favourably. Why did these exiles remain in Ceylon? The reason was that they received what was called a pension from the Egyptian

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  Government. It was not a pension really, but an indemnity, all their property having been confiscated, and were they to leave Ceylon without permission this money would no longer be paid to them. With regard to the Cretan question he wanted to say that the Opposition objected to our forming part of what was to all intents and purposes a holy alliance of the Continental Powers. In that Federal Council of Europe, as Lord Salisbury called it, this country must in the nature of things always be in a minority, for our principles in regard to liberty were very different from those current in Russia, Germany, and Austria. The prevailing view of this holy alliance was that when people broke out in rebellion against their Government—whether that Government was good or bad—they were thereby threatening the peace of Europe, and that all Europe ought to interfere in order to rivet the chain round their necks. But that had never been our policy in the past—witness Italy and Poland. Never before had we interfered on the side of wrong and against the side of right. What he asked the Government to do, was to stand aloof and not to interfere in the insurrection in Crete either on one side or on the other. When they asked the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs in that House for an explanation of the policy of the Government, the right hon. Gentleman referred them to the statements of Lord Salisbury. That was not treating the House of Commons as it had a right to be treated, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would supply them with fuller information in future. He asked whether the Government were really going to insist upon the withdrawal of the Turkish troops, whether Crete was to be granted an independent autonomy, and if so, whether measures were going to be taken to insure that the Cretans should enjoy the full benefits of that autonomy. That such measures were necessary was proved by past experience. For years there had been an excellent constitution in Crete, but the carrying out of it had been in the hands of the Turks, and the result had been constant anarchy and disorder.
  MR. CURZONobserved that as he had already spoken, the Rules of the House did not permit him to take up the
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  challenge of the hon. Member for Northampton. It was indeed only by leave of the House that he could say anything upon the specific subject which had been raised by the hon. Member for South Mayo. The House, he thought, would agree with him that the case of the Egyptian exiles had not suffered at the hands of their sympathetic advocate. ["Hear, hear!"] He did not know whether the hon. Member's information as to the exiles' health was correct or not at the present moment, but when he was himself in Ceylon a few years ago and saw Arabi Pasha and some of the other exiles, they certainly were not suffering from ill-health. As to the climate of Ceylon, he should say himself that the island was one of the most agreeable places on the face of the globe. The hon. Member asked whether the Government would allow these exiles to come back to Europe in accordance with the terms of their petition. But this question was not one primarily for Her Majesty's Government. It was primarily a question for the Egyptian Government, against whom these individuals had engaged in a conspiracy and insurrection. The rebellion was unsuccessful and Arabi Pasha and some others were condemned to death, but their sentences were commuted by the Khedive on the understanding that they would be banished for life and Ceylon was offered by the British Government as the place of their exile. It was quite clear that if these persons wanted to return to Egypt, the matter was one upon which the voice of the Egyptian Government must not only be considered but must prevail. The hon. Gentleman had said nothing whatever about the terms of Lord Cromer's Dispatch which accompanied the memorials. The House should know—
  MR. DAVITT: Nor did I mention the fact that the Khedive himself was not opposed to their return.
  MR. CURZONsaid he could not speak for the opinion of the Khedive. He could only put before the House the opinion of the Egyptian Ministers, given by Lord Cromer in his Dispatch of June 10, 1897, in which he said:—
  "I have the honour to enclose a copy of a memorial which I have received from three of the Ceylon exiles, and in which I am requested to support a petition addressed both to the Queen and to your Lordship, praying that the peti-

  277
  tioners may be allowed to reside in Cyprus. I cannot doubt that the real object of the petitioners is to return to Egypt. I find on inquiry that the Egyptian Ministers are much averse to the return of the exiles. I agree in thinking that their return would be undesirable."
  There was, therefore, the opinion of the Egyptian Government and of Lord Cromer in opposition to the return of these exiles; but, of course, if the Egyptian Government made any representations in the opposite sense, they would be duly considered here. As, however, their opinion was unfavourable, her Majesty's Government had no alternative but to act upon it. ["Hear, hear!"]
  DR. CLARKsaid that Lord Cromer's Report only applied to these men going back to Egypt. Lord Cromer said they ought not to be allowed to go back to Egypt and that the Egyptian Ministers objected to their coming back to Egypt.
  MR. CURZON: The hon. Member is quite wrong. The memorial was put before the Egyptian Government, and they objected to the petitioners going to Cyprus, because they believed it was only a blind in order to get to Egypt.
  DR. CLARKsaid they had been fifteen years in Ceylon, and during that time had made no attempt to interfere in anything Egyptian. Why, then, should they be kept in Ceylon? Why should they not be allowed to reside in a climate similar to that of Egypt? He dared say that Lord Cromer, who was Arabi's old enemy, would do his level best to prevent them from leaving Ceylon. Mr. Gladstone was responsible for the Egyptian war in 18S2—["hear, hear!"]—and he had expressed his regret for it, and these men had suffered for trying to bring about all the reforms Lord Cromer had introduced. However, they were not successful, and therefore must suffer.
  Question put, "That '£49,705' stand part of the Resolution."
  The House divided:—Ayes, 110; Noes, 50.—(Division List, No. 374.)
  DR. CLARKsaid he wished to call attention to the extraordinary conduct of Lord Salisbury in requiring to bring
  278
  the question of the protection of the fisheries in the north of Scotland before the various persons who signed the North Sea Convention. A Select Committee sat in 1892 for the purpose of hearing evidence regarding the delimitation of the fishing beds in the north, and reported almost unanimously in favour of extending the present three mile limit; and of giving greater powers both in England and in Scotland to protect the fishing beds from the consequences of over-trawling. The Committee heard witnesses representing the trawling industry, who admitted that this destruction was going on and desired that some change in the existing system of fishing should be made. Trawling it was said was not paying because the best fish had gone and only immature fish could be caught. There was a difference of opinion in Committee as to whether the sale of undersized fish should be prevented, and eventually the Committee reported against that course for various reasons. In most countries on the North Sea there was a limit to the size of fish that could be sold, but in this country there was no such limit. The Committee recommended that an effort should be made to extend the territorial limit for fishing purposes, and they recommended that the Government should apply to the various Powers that signed the North Sea Convention in order that this should be done. Afterwards a Bill promoted by the Scotch Fishery Board was passed through the House of Commons to control the methods of fishing, and to give the Board powers within the 13 mile limit. The Bill was originally brought in by a Conservative Government, when the Marquess of Lothian was Secretary for Scotland, and it proposed an 18 mile limit. Thirteen miles was suggested by Lord Salisbury, who pointed out that the limit was based on the carrying powers of a gun; and that as the old gunshot was three miles, at present it was 13 miles. When the Board of 1895 was introduced it contained a provision preventing trawling within 13 miles. That was passed by the House of Commons, but in the House of Lords, on Lord Salisbury's Motion an Amendment was put in to the effect that the Scotch Fishery Board should not put these powers in force until all the Powers signing the North Sea Convention agreed

  279
  to them. Lord Salisbury, he held, thus became morally responsible for seeing that his Amendment was carried out. Two months after it was carried, he became Foreign Secretary. The Government had been pressed to apply to the Powers during the past two years, but had not done so; and indeed Mr. Curzon had told the House that they had no intention of doing so. If that was so, they were entitled to say that the Amendment was made in the House of Lords by false pretences. The present position was this. They were able at present in certain places beyond the three mile limit—in the Moray Firth—to prevent English and Scotch trawlers from carrying on their operations, but foreign trawlers were at liberty to fish in these waters. They had a notorious case of that kind recently. There was a law by which they could prevent fish so caught in these waters from being sold, and when that German trawler came into Aberdeen it was met by a gunboat and marines, who by physical force prevented the landing of the fish. Surely they were entitled to ask Lord Salisbury to take some steps to put his own Amendment in force. To a great extent Lord Salisbury he believed was acting in the interest of the English trawlers, by whom great mischief was done. Even in the reign of James I. English fishermen went to the Scotch waters and fights ensued as they did now. Both the English and the Scotch Parliaments appointed Committees to consider the question, and Lord Cranborne, the Prime Minister's ancestor, was on the English Committee. These Committees recommended a limit of fourteen miles, or a mile more than the limit now suggested. By his action Lord Salisbury was now enabling the English people to poach in Scotch waters, and this the Scotch people desired to prevent. The Scotch system was different from the English. About 72 per cent. of the fish in Scotland were caught by drift nets or lines, and only about one-fourth from the trawls, while the great bulk of the English fish were caught by trawls. Here was a very valuable source of food being destroyed. The only question on which there was a difference of opinion was as to the remedy, and as between the two alternatives suggested the view of the Committee was, not that the size of fish should be limited, but
  280
  that the fishing beds should be preserved by preventing trawling within a certain limit. In the past, they had seen the white fish in the Moray Firth destroyed. Now they were coming back again; and what they wanted to do was to prevent further destruction taking place.
  Mr. R. B. HALDANEsaid he understood the Government did not intend to pursue the negotiations with reference to the 13-mile limit within the convention of the Powers concerned. He believed there was difficulty in the matter, and he did not blame the Government for not treating a vexed question of international law separately. The Scotch fishermen were in a great difficulty as to the future. This Act was hanging over their heads, and they were in great uncertainty as to their calling. He hoped the Government would do what was in their power in the way of negotiation with foreign States or would introduce legislation. The protection of the line fishermen on the east coast cried loudly for a remedy, and with things in the uncertain condition they were at present it was impossible to make progress. The Government might find it possible to come to a decision, and either negotiate with foreign Powers, or the Board of Trade in England, which was jealous of the superior advantages the Scotch fishermen were getting, might make up their minds what course they would allow the Scotch Office to take in the matter.
  MR. J. G. WEIRsaid that if his hon. and learned Friend did not blame the Government he himself blamed them for their neglect. The Government said they had done nothing, and did not intend to do anything. That was not treating the subject or the House fairly. He wished again to call attention to the high duty imposed by the United States, Russian, and Austrian Governments on Scotch herrings imported into those countries. The Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs, in reply to repeated questions, said it was useless for him to interfere, as his efforts were foredoomed to failure. In July last year a memorial, signed by a number of Unionist Members and 15 or 16 Unionist candidates, was sent to Lord Salisbury, urging upon him the importance of extending the three-mile limit to 13 miles, and Lord Salisbury promised his

  281
  "most careful consideration." It was not pleasant to be eternally asking questions in this House. [Laughter.] He would much rather not ask a single question the whole Session. ["Hear, hear!" and laughter.] It was not pleasant to raise questions on Report or on the Appropriation Bill, but Members had to use every means to bring pressure on the Government, and he would use every means rather than see the affairs of the Highlands of Scotland or of the line fishermen of Scotland, Ireland, or England pushed aside and ignored. ["Hear, hear!"]
  MR. CURZONsaid that the Government were willing to move in the interests of the fishermen was shown by the success of their efforts as regarded better wharfage for the reception of Scotch herrings. Turning to the more important question of the 13-mile limit, he said it was quite true that under Section 10 of the Sea Fisheries Act of 1895 jurisdiction was given to the Fishery Board in Scotland to make certain bye-laws for the observance of British fishermen within the 13-mile limit, and that the result of an Amendment introduced by Lord Salisbury in the House of Lords was that no such bye-law should be held to be operative until foreign Powers had accepted the jurisdiction as binding upon their subjects. It had been suggested that by introducing that Amendment Lord Salisbury had made himself morally responsible for this appeal being made, and that there had been some breach of faith on the part of Lord Salisbury in not making it. But there were many considerations to be taken into account. There was no inherent or à priori objection on the part of the Foreign Office; but there were aspects of the question which, though they did not seem to have entered into the purview of hon. Gentlemen opposite, must, from the Foreign Office point of view, be considered. This question affected other classes of fishermen besides the line fishermen, and not only so, but it raised far wider issues of international and political importance. If the appeal were made to the signatory Powers it was extremely doubtful whether it would be accepted. But supposing it were accepted, what would be the consequences? In the first place this would be looked upon by
  282
  the fishing interest generally, as a concession made to the line fishermen alone, and no doubt great jealousy and ill-feeling would result therefrom.
  DR. CLARKpointed out that the trawling interest was well represented on the Committee, and the consensus, of opinion was that the fishing beds were being destroyed and that something must be done.
  MR. CURZONsaid no doubt that was the case, but he could not believe, if the appeal was successful, that it would be cheerfully acquiesced in by the trawling industry on any part of the coast. Another point was that if the proposal were accepted, other Powers would at once propose corresponding restrictions upon their own waters, and British fishermen might find that they would lose more than they would gain by being excluded from some of their most profitable fishing-grounds—namely, those around the coasts of Denmark, Iceland, Germany, Holland, Spain, and Portugal. One thing was certain. If this change were adopted in the first instance for fishing purposes, they would soon find it claimed for other purposes of a very much more serious nature. A proposal was made by the Netherlands Government a short time ago for a similar extension of the territorial limit, and that application was not entertained. Of course, the moment they touched a question of this sort they raised any number of issues affecting the sovereignty and jurisdiction of States. Hitherto, the three - mile limit had obtained throughout the States of Europe, and had almost the force of International Law. So it was regarded by all maritime countries, and now it was proposed to substitute for this limit an indefinable area, the limits of which were situated at such a distance from land that they could not be seen, and over which it would be extremely difficult to exercise adequate and efficient control. An alteration of this kind, if it were to be accepted as having the force of an international law, must be made with the common consent of all the maritime Powers, but Russia, Sweden and Norway were not included among the signatories to the North Sea Convention. It must be obvious that they could not with any chance of success or with any decency propose a gigantic

  283
  change of this kind and leave out of their consideration a number of the Powers affected. He hoped hon. Members would see the force of what he had said, and that they would recognise that whatever solution was ultimately arrived at the case was certainly one in which great caution was required.
  MR. T. R. BUCHANANwhile appreciating the points brought forward by the right hon. Gentleman did not think his reply would give much satisfaction to the Scottish fishermen. It should be remembered that when the Act of 1895 left the House of Commons it gave the Fishery Board power to close certain areas within the thirteen-mile limit. But in the House of Lords and at the instance of Lord Salisbury a restriction was put in that the clause should not come into operation unless the previous consent of the signatories to the North Sea Convention had been given. The same question had arisen in the Committee. In the original proposal of the Committee the proviso was not inserted that the consent of the North Sea Powers should be necessary, but the Report of the Committee was that the consent of these Powers should be necessary. During the discussion it was pointed out that the insertion of the Amendment in the Bill would render the clause inoperative, and surely after the course Lord Salisbury took they had a claim upon him to take action in the direction of making the clause operative. The first difficulty pointed out by the Under Secretary was that they could not extend the territorial limit for fishery purposes only. The question of the territorial limit was a difficult problem of international law which had been much discussed by international lawyers. But it had made great progress during the last few years, and three years ago the Congress on International Law at Brussels came to a unanimous decision on the motion of the French delegate in favour of extending the territorial limit for fishery purposes to six miles. The law at present, both in Spain and Portugal, was that for fishery purposes the Government had power over its own subjects for six miles and prohibited trawling up to that point.
  284
  These were actual precedents in which individual Governments had extended the territorial limit for fishery purposes, and no objection had been urged on the part of other Governments. More than that, there was a precedent in our own legislation in 1889. An Act of that year gave the Fishery Board power to close to all British fishermen the Moray Firth, a large area of water on the North-east of Scotland. The action taken under the Act was disputed but upheld, and the present Lord Advocate was instrumental in upholding it. The right hon. Gentleman had said we could not negotiate in a matter of this sort with the North Sea Powers only. There were, however, precedents for fishery arrangements in the North Sea,. This was pre-eminently a question affecting the East Coast of Scotland, and that was the reason why he urged the Government to take action with the signatory Powers to the North Sea Convention. It was perfectly clear to anyone who had studied the history of recent fishery matters that there had been very serious disagreements and trouble between British fishermen and the fishermen in Iceland and on the German coast, and it was almost inevitable that before very long there would have to be negotiations for an international settlement of various fishery questions. The right hon. Gentleman also stated that the Netherlands Government had actually made a proposal that the North Sea Powers should enter into negotiations for an extension of the fishery limit.
  MR. CURZON: They made a proposal on their own account.
  MR. BUCHANANsaid that an opportunity was thus afforded the Government of entering into negotiations upon this very important subject. It was to be regretted that the Government had not merely done nothing of their own initiative, but had negatived the action of a foreign Power. He hoped the Government would not shut their eyes to the great urgency of this question, and that before another year had elapsed something would be done to settle what was the cause of a good deal of disquietude and dissatisfaction to the fishing population on the east coast of Scotland.
  Original Question put, and agreed to.

SUPPLY [2ND AUGUST].
Resolutions reported.
CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES, 1897–8.

  CLASS II.
  1. "That a sum, not exceeding £27,373, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for the salaries and expenses of the Civil Service Commission."
  2. "That a sum, not exceeding £121,659, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for the salaries and expenses of the Local Government Board."
  3. "That a sum, not exceeding £27,246, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for the salaries and expenses of the offices of the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant in Dublin and London, and Subordinate Departments."

  CLASS III.
  4. "That a sum, not exceeding £765,017, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for the expenses of the Royal Irish Constabulary."

  CLASS I.
  5. "That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £10,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for expenditure in respect of Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain."
  6. "That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £3,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for expenditure in respect of Diplomatic and Consular Building's."
  7. "That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £80,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for expenditure in respect of sundry Public Buildings in Great Britain not provided for on other Votes."

  CLASS II.
  8. "That a sum, not exceeding £28,900, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for the salaries and expenses of the Department of Her Majesty's Secretary of State for the Colonies, including a grant in aid of certain expenses connected with Emigration."
  9. "That a sum, not exceeding £36,200, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Works and Public Buildings."
  10. "That a sum, not exceeding £13,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for Her Majesty's Foreign and other Secret Services."
  11. "That a sum, not exceeding £2,771, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898 for the salaries and expenses of the Household of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland."
  12. "That a sum, not exceeding £10,407, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for the salaries and expenses of the Department of the Registrar General of Births, Etc., and the expenses of collecting Agricultural and other Statistics in Ireland."
  13. "That a sum, not exceeding £6,649, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for the salaries and expenses of the General Valuation and Boundary Survey of Ireland."

  CLASS III.
  14. "That a sum, not exceeding £40,229, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for Criminal Prosecutions and other Law Charges in Ireland.
  15. "That a sum, not exceeding £74,758, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for such of the salaries and expenses of the Supreme Court of Judicature and of certain other Legal Departments in Ireland as are not charged on the Consolidated Fund."
  16. "That a sum, not exceeding £68,431, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Irish Land Commission."
  17. "that a sum, not exceeding £80,869, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for the salaries, allowances, expenses, and pensions of various County Court Officers, of Divisional Commissioners, and of Magistrates in Ireland, and the expenses of Revision."
  18. "That a sum, not exceeding £65,491, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum

  287
  necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for the salaries and expenses of the Commissioner of Police, the Police Courts, and the Metropolitan Police Establishment of Dublin."
  19. "That a sum, not exceeding £69,096, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for the expenses of the General Prisons Board in Ireland, and of the Prisons under their control, and of the Registration of Habitual Criminals."
  20. "That a sum, not exceeding £55,087, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for the expenses of Reformatory and Industrial Schools in Ireland."
  21. "That a sum, not exceeding £3,946, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for the Maintenance of Criminal Lunatics in the Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum, Ireland."
  22. "That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £2,500, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for certain Miscellaneous Legal Expenses, including a grant in aid of the expenses of the Incorporated Law Society."

  CLASS IV.
  23. "That a sum, not exceeding £15,984, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for sundry grants in aid of scientific investigation, etc., and other grants."
  24. "That a sum, not exceeding £66,059, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for grants in aid of the expenses of certain Universities and Colleges in Great Britain, and of the expenses under the Welsh Intermediate Education Act 1889."
  MR. CARVELL WILLIAMSwished to call attention to the case of King's College, which was to be one of the participants of this Vote. It was the only college in the list which was of a sectarian character. The money was not originally granted by Parliament: it was the act of the Treasury, and when the five years for which the grant was originally voted was about to expire, the late Government gave to the College the option of abandoning its ecclesiastical tests, or of losing the grant. The College authorities declined to abolish the tests,
  288
  and appealed to their supporters to raise an endowment, to take the place of the Parliamentary grant. This appeal was not adequately responded to, and, therefore, when the present Government came into office, the College applied for a restoration of the grant. The request was complied with, and without any stipulation as to religious tests. Not only so: it was now to receive an additional £500 a year. That was the result of art application from all the colleges for an increased Vote; which was now to be £25,000, instead of £15,500, a year. Before, however, allocating the increased sum, the Government took the very proper step of ascertaining how the work of the colleges was being done. They appointed Mr. Warren, President of Magdalen College, Oxford, and Professor Liveing, of St. John's College, Cambridge, to inquire into the quality, character, and results of the work done at each college. Those gentlemen agreed to a Report on the 31st December, which was presented to the Treasury and laid before the House on the 17th June last. They reported in general terms that the colleges were doing good work, and realising the purpose for which they were established. In addition, they reported as to each of the 14 colleges in receipt of the Parliamentary grant, and in every case but one they spoke in terms of high commendation of the sufficiency and the efficiency of the machinery of the college, and of the high quality of the work done. The one exception was King's College. Not only did the Report contain very little in praise of that institution, but almost every feature of the college was spoken of in terms so disparaging as to suggest that the inquirers must have had some difficulty in recommending that the college should have any addition made to its grant. Here were some of the statements of the Report:—
  "On the Arts side it cannot be said that at present any amount of work of a high standard is being done in the college. In Arts proper we found practically no Honour work being done. Most of the work, both in Arts and Science, is of an elementary kind; although it is very difficult to form an estimate of the results of the work in Arts and Science."
  Then it was said that the college does not properly prepare its students for

  289
  the examinations of the London University, or encourage them to present themselves. The college held its own examinations; but the questions were not of an advanced type. In five years only twelve students seemed to have taken the Associateship in the Faculty of Arts—that was less than three a year. It was further stated that—
  "in Arts the quality of the students does not appear to be generally as high as it was formerly."
  It appeared also that the professors were poorly paid, and that new financial arrangements were proposed which would have the effect of still further reducing their stipends. In addition, the college buildings were spoken of as being inadequate; while the library was described as being "by no means up to date," and the sum expended on it was insufficient. The only unqualified praise to be found in the Report related to the Theological Faculty, which was stated
  "to be strong and doing good work of a valuable kind for a number of deserving students. In theology, the professional and teaching staff appears to be thoroughly adequate."
  The general impression produced by the Report was that, except as an institution for theological teaching and ecclesiastical training, King's College was a practical failure, compared with the other colleges which shared in the Parliamentary grant. How far that resulted from the fact that it was a sectarian institution, and excluded from its professorial staff everyone not a member of the Church of England he did not know; but this was the institution the Government had gone out of its way to specially favour, by placing it in the list of colleges for Parliamentary aid, after it had been most properly removed from participation in the grant. On a former occasion he had said nothing in disparagement of King's College; but this Report justified the objection to any increase of its grant. He had a further reason for calling attention to the subject, in the fact that a Bill for the creation of a new University for London had been introduced, which gave to King's College a very important position. Three of the proposed University Commissioners were, he believed, intimately connected with the college, which was also
  290
  to appoint two members of the Senate. As one who had taken an active part in securing the passing of the Act which abolished all ecclesiastical tests at the national universities, he protested against such retrogression as was involved in both the additional grant to a sectarian institution like King's College, and in the proposal to give to it a leading position in a new university for London.
  Resolution agreed to.
  25. "That a sum, not exceeding £2,450, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for a Grant in aid of the Expenses of the Queen's Colleges in Ireland."
  26. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £2,300, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for the Salaries and Expenses of the National Gallery."
  27. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £18,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for the Expenses of the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland, including a Grant in Aid of the Teachers Pension Fund, Ielrand."

  CLASS V.
  28. "That a sum, not exceeding £1,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for a Grant in Aid of the Revenue of the Island of Cyprus."

  CLASS VI.
  29. "That, a sum, not exceeding £18,113, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for a Grant in Aid of the Local Cost of Maintenance of Pauper Lunatics in Ireland."
  30. "That a sum, not exceeding £8,640, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray me charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for Hospitals and Infirmaries, and certain Miscellaneous, Charitable, and other Allowances in Ireland, including sundry Grants in Aid."

  CLASS VII.
  31. "That a sum, not exceeding £2,048, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for the repayment to the Civil Contingencies Fund of certain Miscellaneous Advances."
  32. "That a sum, not exceeding £80,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment

  291
  during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for a Grant in Aid of the Expenses connected with the Celebration of the Sixtieth Anniversary of Her Majesty's Accession."

  ARMY (SUPPLEMENTARY), 1897–8.
  33. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £200,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for Additional Expenditure in respect of the Garrison in South Africa on the following Army Services—namely:—

  £

  Vote 1. Pay, etc., of the Army (General Staff, Regiments, Reserve, and Departments)

  10,000

  Vote 6. Transport and Remounts

  105,000

  Vote 7. Provisions, Forage, and other Supplies

  74,000

  Vote 8. Clothing Establishments and Services

  3,000

  Vote 9. Warlike and other Stores

  6,000

  Vote 10, Works, etc

  2,000

  Total

  £200,000

  Resolutions agreed to.

WAYS AND MEANS [2ND AUGUST].
Resolution reported:
"That, towards making good the Supply granted to Her Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, the sum of £51,759,260 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
Resolution agreed to:—Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. James William Lowther, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Hanbury.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL.
To apply a sum out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, and to appropriate the Supplies granted in this Session of Parliament; presented accordingly, and Read the First time; to be Read a Second time To-morrow.

WORKMEN (COMPENSATION FOR ACCIDENTS) BILL.
MR. SPEAKERcommunicated to the House a message from, the Lords to the effect that they had agreed to the Commons' Amendments to the Lords' Amendments with some Amendments to which they desired the concurrence of the House,
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and that they did not insist upon certain of their Amendments to which the Commons did not agree.
Lords' Amendments to Commons' Amendments to Lords' Amendments considered, and agreed to.

FOREIGN PRISON-MADE GOODS BILL.
Lords' Amendment considered, and agreed to.
EAST INDIA REVENUE ACCOUNTS.
Committee thereupon deferred till Tomorrow.

CONSTABULARY (IRELAND) BILL [H.L.]
Considered in Committee.
Clause 2,—

AMENDMENT OF 28 AND 29 VICT. C. 70. S. 8.
So much of Section eight of the Constabulary (Ireland) Amendment Act 1865, as limits to one hundred and fifty the number of men to be fixed for the discharge of the duties of a night watch in Belfast is hereby repealed, provided that no increased charge upon any local rate shall be created by this Act.
MR. GERALD BALFOURmoved the omission of the words "provided that no increased charge upon any local rate shall be created by this Act."
Amendment agreed to. Bill reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

LAND TRANSFER (RE-COMMITTED) BILL [H.L.]
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. ARTHUR O'CONNOR in the Chair].
Clause 22,—

RULES AND FEE ORDERS.
(1.) General rules under Section one hundred and eleven of the principal Act stall be made by the Lord Chancellor with the advice and assistance of the Registrar, a Judge of the Chancery Division of the High Court to be chosen by the Judges of that Division, and three other persons, one to be chosen by the General Council of the Bar, one by the Board of Agriculture, and one by the Council of the Incorporated Law Society.
(2.) Orders under Section one hundred and twelve and one hundred and twenty-two of the principal Act shall be made by the Lord Chancellor with the advice and assistance of the same persons, and with the concurrence of the Treasury.
(3.) The fee orders relating and incidental to registration of title shall be arranged from time to time so as to produce an annual amount sufficient to discharge the salaries and other expenses (including the annual contribution to the insurance fund) incidental to the working of the principal Act, and this Act, and no more.
(4.) Subject to any alterations that may be made in accordance with Sections one hundred and twelve and one hundred and twenty-two of the principal Act and this section, the fees to be charged in districts where registration of title is compulsory shall, as regards the matters mentioned in the Second Schedule hereto, be as therein set forth.
(5.) Provision may be made by general rules under Section one hundred and eleven of the principal Act, as amended by this Act, for carrying this Act into effect, and in particular for the following purposes:—

(a) For carrying out the provisions of this Act with respect to compulsory registration;

(b) For adapting to the registration of proprietors of leasehold land the provisions of the principal Act, as to absolute and possessory titles, and as to land certificates;

(c) For adapting to sub-mortgages and to incumbrances prior to registration the provisions of the principal Act with regard to charges;

(d) For the conduct of official searches against cautions, inhibitions, and such matters of a like nature as may be prescribed, and for enabling the registered proprietor to apply for such searches by telegraph, and for returning the replies in like manner to him or to such other persons as he may direct;

(e) For enabling cautions to be entered against the registration of possessory and qualified titles as qualified or absolute;

(f) For enabling a mortgagee by deposit to give notice to the Registrar by registered letter or otherwise of the deposit with him of the land certificate, office copy of the registered lease, or certificate of charge. Provided that the fee for the entry of any such notice shall not exceed one shilling;

(g) For applying to the grant of leases and dealings with leasehold land, the provisions of this Act with respect to compulsory registration;

(h) For allowing the insertion, inserting in the register, and in land certificates, of the price paid or value declared on first registrations, transfers, and transmissions of land; and

(i) For regulating any such matters as are authorised by this Act to be prescribed.

(6.) Provided that nothing in the rules under the said section shall extend to allow the inspection of any entry in the register, except by or under the authority of some person interested in the land or charge to which the entry refers.
(7.) Provision may be made by general orders under Section one hundred and eighteen of the principal Act, for modifying the provisions of that Act with respect to the formation and constitution of district registries, and for providing the mode in which district registrars are to be remunerated, but nothing in any such order shall affect the provisions as to qualification contained in Section one hundred and nineteen of the principal Act.
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir RICHARD WEBSTER,)THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir RICHARD WEBSTER, Isle of Wight) moved a new clause to follow Clause 22, making provision for the Yorkshire registries of deeds.
MR. STUART-WORTLEYsaid they were promised a statement with regard to this Bill by the First Lord of the Treasury. It was not a question of whether a new clause should be added so much as a question of whether the Bill should go on at all. In order to give the Leader of the House an opportunity of making a statement as to the future of the Bill, he moved to report Progress.
THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURYremarked that what he said yesterday was really only a repetition of what he had stated on previous occasions in connection with this Bill. What he then said was that the period of the Session was one at which it would be impossible to press hon. Gentlemen to make great exertions in order that the Bill might pass, but it appeared to him that they had now before them a period of time which might well enable them to deal with the Measure, which had been thoroughly threshed out in the Grand Committee. He hoped the House would see fit so to do. ["Hear, hear!"]
MR. J. G. BUTCHERsaid the fact was that this Bill had never really been considered very seriously at all, either in the House or in the country. He knew that a large number of people in the House were very much interested in the Bill, and they were extremely anxious, as every one else in the House was, that a Measure should be carried, if possible, which would have the effect of facilitating and cheapening the transfer of land. But there was a widespread feeling that this Bill, as framed, would not effect that object, and it was with a desire to reconsider the question that he asked the Government for some more time. The object of the Bill was to introduce a totally new system.
THE CHAIRMAN (Mr. ARTHUR O'CONNOR)reminded the hon. Member that he would not be able to go into the merits of the Bill on the question that he should report Progress.
MR. BUTCHERsaid he would ask the Government, having regard to the enormous magnitude of the interests involved in the Bill and to the fact that so many Members who were interested in the subject were not present at this period of the Session, to give the House and the country another opportunity of considering a Bill which was so far-reaching in its tendencies, and which, if it were a failure, would be one of the most deplorable failures that that House had had to record.
THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURYpointed out that the principle of the Bill was universally agreed upon, and the only questions in controversy were the details of the Bill. Those details were thoroughly threshed out before the Grand Committee, and it was the work of that Grand Committee, and not merely the work of another place, which they had now got to deal with. The Bill had come on somewhat unexpectedly, but he assumed that the Chairman would not very long remain in the Chair, and that there then might be an opportunity for some of the gentlemen who were interested in the subject but were not present now, to come back and give their views on the question.
MR. HALDANEsaid he should like to add to what the First Lord had said, that this Bill had really been considered a very great deal more than his hon. and learned Friend the Member for York seemed to think. The old Bill was very carefully sifted out before a Committee in 1895. At that time the Incorporated Law Society suggested certain Amendments, and in the redrafted Bill the whole of these Amendments were embodied. The Incorporated Law Society was entirely satisfied with this Bill and had passed a resolution in its favour. The main body of conveyancers were also satisfied. The Bill had been minutely sifted in Grand Committee, and those of them who had spent a great, deal of time and trouble in trying to make the Bill uncontroversial and assist the Government were satisfied that this was a Bill which would work cheaply and well, and it would be a
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great pity if they were to lose an opportunity, which did not recur very often, of making substantial progress with the Measure.
Motion by leave withdrawn.
Clause read a Second time.
THE ATTORNEY GENERALmoved to amend the clause by inserting after "Acts," the words "and subject to the provisions of Section 20 of this Act."
Amendment agreed to; clause, as amended, added to the Bill.
On the Order that the Bill, as amended, be considered,
On the return of Mr. SPEAKER, after the usual interval,
MR. BUTCHERmoved "That this Bill be considered on this day three months." He said that his desire was to support any scheme which would cheapen and facilitate the tranfser of land; but he moved the rejection of the Bill because he had serious doubts as to whether the Bill would effect those objects. The first object of the Bill was to amend the method of registration of title to land which was introduced by the late Lord Cairns in 1875. That Act was not a success, and as far as this Bill sought to amend its provisions, he cordially supported it. But one portion of the Bill he could not support—that which made it compulsory upon the landowners of the country to register the titles whether they liked it or not. If the Government would give an assurance that that portion of the Bill would not be proceeded with, he would withdraw his opposition. If it were true that the principle of the Bill, as far as facilitating registration, was accepted, it was not true that the principle of compulsory registration was accepted. He was unconvinced that there was anything to justify Parliament in embarking on such a far-reaching experiment in connection with the methods of dealing with land. Compulsion could not be justified unless it were reasonably certain that it would lessen the cost. That was the vital matter in land transfer. There was a popular idea that the transfer of land could be made

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as easy as the transfer of stocks and shares, but that view was not held by those who had come in contact with the facts of the case. No doubt, in many cases, the cost of transferring land was too great, and he did not say that no scheme could be devised which would lessen that cost; but if this Bill were carried, for some considerable time, at any rate, the cost would be very seriously increased. This was not a question which could be decided by abstract argument or statistics. The only way of coming to a decision on such a difficult and complex matter was through the evidence given before a Select Committee of the House. In 1879, when it was found that the working of the Act of 1875 was not a success, the Committee was appointed and took a great deal of evidence, including that of Lord Cairns, perhaps the greatest authority of the century on the question. Lord Cairns said that, in his opinion, compulsion was both impracticable and improper in a matter of this kind; and the Committee reported to that effect. Matters have changed since 1879, no doubt, but they had changed in the direction of simplifying and cheapening the transfer of land. What grounds were there for going behind the decision of that Committee? In 1895 another Committee was appointed, and before it evidence was given to show that compulsion was still undesirable. But the late Government suddenly went out of office, and one of the results was that the Committee never reported. The Act of Lord Cairns was not the first Registration Act. In 1862, Lord Westbury carried a Measure providing for a system of non-compulsory registration. During 20 years of the working of that Act, 188 owners of cottages registered the title; and 131 had taken the properties off the register again. He did not believe that the only obstacle to success lay in the hostility of the solicitors. If a really good Act, which would cheapen and facilitate the transfer of land, were devised, the opposition of the solicitors, if it existed, would be powerless to prevent the adoption and success of the Act. Landowners would insist upon the Act being carried into effect. There was no reason to believe that the system of registration proposed in this Bill was any better than its predecessors, and yet the Government were asking the
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House to make it compulsory upon the landowners of the country. [The ATTORNEY GENERAL: "Nothing of the kind!"] If the scheme of the Government was to be experimental he trusted that Yorkshire would not be made the subject of the experiment. He urged the Government not to adopt this policy of compulsory registration of title without further inquiry. This legislation, if, as he predicted, it should be a failure, would inflict enormous inconvenience upon landowners in the county where the experiment was tried. For rash and hasty legislation of this kind a bitter penalty would sooner or later have to be paid. He concluded by moving his Amendment.
MR. BRYN ROBERTSasked Mr. Speaker whether the Report stage of a Bill could be taken immediately after the Committee stage without the general consent of the House? He pointed out that at least 10 Members had given notice of Amendments on Report, and that only one of those Members was present.
MR. SPEAKERsaid that the Committee stage had been passed some time, and the Bill had been re-committed that evening only to consider a new clause, which was of such a nature that it could not be introduced on Report. The Motion that the Bill be considered as amended had been put without objection.
MR. STUART-WORTLEYcontended that the Order of the Day relating to this Bill was so worded as to amount practically to a notice to all parties concerned that the House would only be asked to deal that evening with the new clause.
THE ATTORNEY GENERALmaintained that it was a common practice to recommit a Bill in respect of one clause and then to take the Report stage.
MR. BRYN ROBERTSasked whether the Report stage could be taken if objection was made to the motion?
MR. SPEAKERthought it could, in the circumstances to which he had referred.
THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid that he recognised in the speech of his

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hon. and learned Friend the Member for York the views of certain solicitors—[cries of" No"]—who desired to oppose this Bill. He was informed, however, that in Yorkshire generally there was a desire that the Bill should pass. It was provided that if any County Council passed a resolution declaring that registration would not facilitate or cheapen the transfer of land in their county the Bill should not come into operation there.
MR. BUTCHERsaid that that provision would be ineffective.
THE ATTORNEY GENERALdiffered from the hon and learned Member. In conclusion, he stated that Yorkshire would not be the county selected. The Lord Chancellor proposed that the administrative County of Middlesex should be selected in the first instance.
MR. HENRY KIMBERwished to know why registration was to be compulsory. If it was to benefit people there was no need for compulsion? The real reason why the Measure was made compulsory was because a certain department constituted in 1875 for the registration of titles had proved to be an utter financial failure. [The ATTORNEY GENERAL: "It is paying its way!"] The people for whose benefit this legislation was said to be introduced did not appreciate it. Your argument was that the compulsory clause was necessary because the solicitors of the country disapproved registration. That was a very mean and unworthy suggestion for a Conservative Government to make against what was perhaps the most Conservative body of men in the whole country, and he repudiated it with scorn. As a matter of fact, the compulsory clause would at first be as big a bonus as could ever be given to solicitors by Act of Parliament. It meant an immense extension of the employment of solicitors. The experience of the two registering counties, Middlesex and Yorkshire, was that registration had largely increased the expense of conveyancing, and that system it was proposed by the Bill to make compulsory. He admitted that the Bill would make some very important and valuable improvements upon the registration under the Act of 1875, and would greatly facilitate and cheapen subsequent transfers of property. But if it would, why have this compulsory clause in addition? Was
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it not an admission by the Government that the benefits of registration were not sufficient to induce purchasers of land to avail themselves of it voluntarily and, therefore, a deterrent of registering?
MR. BYRN ROBERTSsupported the appeals which had been made to the Government to drop the compulsory clause. He did not contend that solicitors were above the weakness of mankind, each to do the best for himself, but he was satisfied that even if the solicitors believed it would serve their interests to have the new system introduced, they would be unable to carry out their views, for that could only happen if every solicitor acted in the same way, and if every solicitor had an overwhelming influence on his client. He was, however, perfectly certain that nine out of every ten solicitors would advise their client in the interest of their client alone. In fact every solicitor of any experience placed the interests of his clients over his own interests, because he knew that, in his profession, honesty was the best policy, and that the solicitor who advised his client solely in his client's interest was the most successful. Anybody who had had experience of the working of the previous Bill, felt that the old system was better than any Land Transfer Bill that had been passed. It had been found in practice, more especially in the case of small conveyances, that the cost of registration was too heavy, and when it was borne in mind that 25 per cent. of the conveyances of land in this country were small conveyances, it was obvious that a compulsory system of registration would increase the cost of working men's houses to an intolerable extent. He was in favour of letting both systems be tried together, when the rule of the survival of the fittest would obtain. ["Hear, hear!"] If the new system proved itself to be the fittest, he was sure that all solicitors in England and Wales would adopt it. On the other hand, if the contrary was proved, nothing would induce people to register. For these reasons he hoped the compulsory clauses would be dropped. He was sure that if at this late period of the Session the Government wished to get the Bill through, they would do so

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more readily if they dropped part 3. The other parts of the Bill were most valuable, particularly part 1, and he thought it would be a mistake that for the sake of retaining part 3, these provisions should be lost. ["Hear, hear!"]
MR. ALFRED HOPKINSONsaid that the present system was a bad one in three respects, in expense, in delay and in insecurity. He thought the House ought to see in this Bill a well-meant attempt to grapple with these evils and he hoped the Government were determined to deal with this question of land transfer and put it on a satisfactory basis. Registration of title was the only satisfactory way that had yet been proposed of getting rid of the three evils he had mentioned, and in that respect the Bill was certainly on the right line. Whatever the result of this Measure might be, he hoped they would not be put off working for a system of registration of title. It was a different question whether this ought to be proceeded with that night, and if so, whether the compulsory clauses ought to be included. The idea of limiting the application of the Bill to Middlesex in the first instance, made a very great difference, for in Middlesex there was a staff of capable officials accustomed to the system, which did not exist in other parts of the country. He would have preferred to see a system of registration of title introduced, not by means of compulsory clauses, but by offering some strong inducement to register. But, although preferable, that was not the scheme of the Bill before the House. He for one thought it would be worth while to try the scheme of the Bill in a limited area, and if it was found to work well, it might be extended over a wider area afterwards.
MR. STUART-WORTLEYsaid he wished to give all possible credit to the Government for the great pains they had taken in preparing this Bill. He thought it would be better if the House really got to business and ascertained whether
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the compulsory clauses were to be gone on with or not. The Government had gone a good way in promising the Yorkshire Members that Yorkshire should not be the first county to be subjected to the experiment. They had gone further and had named the county where the experiment would be tried. The County Council was no doubt a very respectable body, but it did not represent the landowners. Could not the Government go so far as to say that the Order in Council under Clause 20 should not be made until there had been some public notice given or some attempt had been made to feel the pulse of those concerned, or would the Government go so far as to say that they would reverse the process under Clause 20 and say that the Order in Council should not be made unless the County Council moved in the matter? He wished to know whether the Government would assent to an Amendment which should require that the consent not only of the County Council should be required, but of some body representing the skilled opinion of lawyers throughout the country.
MR. SYDNEY GEDGEsaid that the subject was one in which he took a great interest, and he objected to the Bill very strongly. He thought it was exceedingly hard that such an important Bill should come on for discussion at that late period of the Session. About six-sevenths of the Members of the House had never had an opportunity of considering the Bill in detail. He complained that the promises which had been made; on the occasion of the Second Reading were not fulfilled in the Amendments which were now brought forward. He noticed that the Attorney General went very gingerly over the question of compulsion, but he had made several promises on that occasion. They found on looking at the Amendments that a clause was proposed which would compel the purchaser of land to see that the Succession Duty was paid before he could get a good title. On that point

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he thought the promise which was made had not been fulfilled. Then they were told that there would be a saving of at least four-fifths of the present cost. There was a very general idea that the cost of transfer of land was very high, but the law had been altered very much since the Bill of 1875 was brought in. Under the present system titles had been very much simplified. He argued that it was not the case that the legal profession were in favour of the Bill; nor, did they oppose it in their own interests. He objected to the County of London being the first place on which this experimental Bill was to be tried. Unless the compulsory clauses of the Bill were dropped he should oppose it to the utmost.
THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURYsaid he had listened with interest and attention to the Debate, and he gathered that the whole of the objection to the Bill arose from the compulsory Clause 20, Sub-section 8. It was impossible to drop that clause, but a modification might be possible which would conciliate opinion among the opponents of the Bill. The clause provided a period of three years' grace, as it were, during which the Bill would not come into operation unless the county council of the county so desired. The Government, if it would conciliate objectors to the Bill, would be prepared, if they would take this as a compromise which would enable the Government to get the Bill without undue discussion, to make the three years perpetual—in other words, to introduce an Amendment to Sub-section 8 by which it would be impossible to force on any county council against the wish of that county the provisions of the Bill. If that were accepted it would rest for all time with the county council to take the initiative in applying the provisions of the Bill within the area of its jurisdiction, and, in addition to that safeguard, the Government would be prepared to say that any Resolution that was initiated and passed
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by the county council should lie on the Table of each House for the usual period of thirty or forty days, and only become law if a Resolution was not passed against its operation. He hoped that Clause 20, safeguarded in the way he had suggested, would receive the approbation of even the most cautious experimenter.
MR. AUGUSTUS HELDERsaid he had had great experience in conveyancing, and believed it was far better to leave it to persons to carry out their conveyance as they might be advised. So strongly did he feel that to be the case, that he opposed the compulsory clause altogether. Originally it was proposed to deal with the clauses as to compulsory registration separately. He believed the Bill would be a good Bill without these clauses; and if at any time hereafter it should be found that landowners and others interested were anxious to register their titles it might then be desirable that clauses should be passed providing for such registration. He had been bombarded with telegrams supporting him in the views he had taken with reference to this matter. They came from, among others, the Leeds and Yorkshire Law Societies; the Stockport Law Society; St. Helen's Law Society; Sunderland Law Society; Westmoreland Law Society; Scarborough Law Society; Nottingham Law Society; Leicester Law Society; Bolton Law Society; Shropshire Law Society; Norfolk and Norwich Law Society; Blackpool, Fleetwood, and Fylde Law Society; Oldham Law Society; and Chester and North Wales Law Society. He repeated that if due consideration was given to this matter, it would be found that it would be far better not to embody the compulsory clauses in the Bill, but to take time, and perhaps next year or at some other time, after the matter had been properly considered, to bring up proposals on the subject. With regard to the proposal to experiment on the County of London, he fancied that when it was known that the conveyances for every small house

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in every small street had to be registered, there would be a perfect uproar on the subject, and it would lead to great expense, trouble and delay.
MR. KIMBERasked leave to say that, so far as he was concerned, he was willing to accept the compromise offered by the Government, and if this very important experiment was tried, he was willing that it should be made on the County of London. He suggested to the hon. Member for York that he should withdraw his Motion and accept the offer of the First Lord of the Treasury. He believed the country ought to have the opportunity of seeing the two systems tried side by side.
SIR HENRY FOWLERthought that the First Lord of the Treasury had made a very fair and conciliatory proposal to the House. It would introduce an element of statesmanship into the Bill which perhaps had hitherto been regarded purely from a lawyer point of view. The First Lord's proposal would take the matter out of the hands of the lawyers to a certain extent, and bring the general mind of the country to bear upon it. The proposal, as he understood it was that in the first instance, the Bill was not to be imposed upon any county if a majority of the county council, at a meeting at which two-thirds of the members voted, objected to it. The first experiment was to be tried on the initiative of the Lord Chancellor under an Order in Council. That would not come into force for a fixed period, and then only if the county council, by a majority at a meeting at which two-thirds of the members voted, were in favour of it. He wished that Yorkshire had been kept out of the question, and when the proper time came he should certainly object to the new clause which, in his unfortunate absence, had been introduced to-night. He objected to Yorkshire, Middlesex, or any other county being compensated out of the taxes paid by the whole body of taxpayers for any imaginary loss they
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might sustain by the carrying out of this reform. They would establish a most dangerous precedent if, when a reform was proposed any local body were in a position to say, "By the introduction of the reform we may lose some part of our revenue, and therefore we must be compensated out of the Consolidated Fund." He had the honour to represent on this occasion, at their request, the Council of the Incorporated Law Society. Their desire was that this Bill should have a fair trial, and the proposition of the First Lord of the Treasury fully provided for that. From a House of Commons and Treasury point of view, and not as a representative of the Incorporated Law Society, however, he certainly must object to the wording of the new clause which had been introduced upon re-committal.
MR. BUTCHER, after the very conciliatory speech of the First Lord of the Treasury, and in face of the substantial concession the right hon. Gentleman had made to meet the difficulty which had been pointed out, asked leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Bill, as amended, considered.
THE ATTORNEY GENERALmoved to leave out Clause 13, and to insert the following Clause:—

AS TO SUCCESSION AND ESTATE DUTY.
(1.) On every application to register land with an absolute title, or to register a transmission of land, the registrar shall inquire as to Succession Duty and Estate Duty.
(2.) If it appears that there is, or is capable of arising, any such liability to Succession Duty or Estate Duty as would affect the purchaser from the person to be registered as proprietor if the land were unregistered, the registrar shall enter notice of the liability on the register in the prescribed manner.
(3.) Succession Duty and Estate Duty shall not—

(a) unless so noted on the register; or

(b) unless in the case of a possessory title the liability to the duty was, at the date of the registration of the land, subsisting or capable of arising; or

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(c) unless in the case of a qualified title the liability to the duty was included in the exceptions made on the registration of the land;

affect a bonâ fide registered purchaser for full consideration in money or money's worth, although he may have received extraneous notice of the liability in respect thereof.
He had brought the clause up to meet the point raised by the hon. Member for Norfolk — namely, that persons who bought registered titles should not be liable to pay Succession and Estate Duty of which they had no notice, unless it was on the register, the duty being imposed on the Registrar to put the liability on the face of the register.
MR. COZENS HARDYthought this clause, moved in substitution of that he moved in Grand Committee, attained the desired end.
Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.
Clause 1,—

DEVOLUTION OF LEGAL INTEREST IN REAL ESTATE ON DEATH.
(1.) Where real estate is vested in any person without right of survivorship to any other person, it shall, on his death, notwithstanding any testamentary disposition, devolve to and become vested in his personal representatives or representative from time to time as if it were a chattel real vesting in them or him.
(2.) This section shall apply to any real estate over which a person executes by will a general power of appointment, as if it were real estate vested in him.
(3.) Probate and letters of administration may be granted in respect of real estate only, although there is no personal estate.
(4.) The expression "real estate," in this part of this Act, shall not be deemed to include land of copyhold tenure or customary freehold in any case in which an admission or any act by the lord of the manor is necessary to perfect the title of a purchaser from the customary tenant.
(5.) This section applies only in cases of death after the commencement of this Act.
Amendments made: In Sub-section (1) after "without" insert "a"; leave out "of survivorship to" and insert "in"; after "person" insert "to take by survivorship."—(Mr. Radcliffe Cooke.)
Clause 2,—

PROVISIONS AS TO ADMINISTRATION.
(1.) Subject to the powers, rights, duties, and liabilities hereinafter mentioned, the personal representatives of a deceased person shall hold the real estate as trustees for the persons by law beneficially entitled thereto, and those persons shall have the same power of requiring a transfer of real estate as they have of requiring a transfer of personal estate.
(2.) All enactments and rules of law relating to the effect of probate or letters of administration as respects chattels real, and as respects the dealing with chattels real before probate or administration, and as respects the payment of costs of administration and other matters in relation to the administration of personal estate, and the powers, rights, duties, and liabilities of personal representatives in respect of personal estate, shall apply to real estate so far as the same are applicable, as if that real estate were a chattel real vesting in them or him, save that it shall not be lawful for some or one only of several joint personal representatives, without the authority of the court, to sell or transfer real estate.
(3.) In the administration of the assets of a person dying after the commencement of this Act, his real estate shall be administered in the same manner, subject to the same liabilities for debt, costs, and expenses, and with the same incidents, as if it were personal estate; provided that nothing herein contained shall alter or affect the order in which real and personal assets respectively are now applicable in or towards the payment of funeral and testamentary expenses, debts, or legacies, or the liability of real estate to be charged with the payment of legacies.
(4.) Where a deceased person leaves real estate, the court shall, in granting letters of administration, have regard to the rights and interests of persons interested in his real estate, and his heir-at-law, if not one of the next-of-kin, shall be equally entitled to the grant with the next of kin, and provision shall be made by rules of court for adapting the procedure and practice in the grant of letters of administration to the case of real estate.
Amendments made: In Sub-section (1) leave out "they" and insert "persons beneficially entitled to personal estate"; after "of" insert "such."
In Sub-section (4) leave out "deceased"; leave out "leaves" and insert "dies possessed of."—(Mr. Radcliffe Cooke.)
Clause 7,—

RIGHT TO INDEMNITY IN CERTAIN CASES.
(1.) Where any error or omission is made in the register, or where any entry in the register is made or procured by or in pursuance

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of fraud or mistake, and the error, omission, or entry is not capable of rectification under the principal Act, any person suffering loss thereby shall be entitled to be indemnified in the manner in this Act provided.
(2.) Provided that where a registered disposition would if unregistered be absolutely void or where the effect of such error, omission, or entry would be to deprive a person of land of which he is in possession, or in receipt of the rents and profits, such person shall not be deprived, but the register shall be rectified and the person suffering loss by the rectification shall be entitled to the indemnity.
(3.) A person shall not be entitled to indemnity for any loss where he has caused or substantially contributed to the loss by his act, neglect, or default.
(4.) Where the register is rectified under the principal Act by reason of fraud or mistake which has occurred in a registered disposition for valuable consideration, and which the grantee was not aware of and could not by the exercise of reasonable care have discovered, the person suffering loss by the rectification shall likewise be entitled to indemnity under this section.
(5.) The Registrar may, if the applicant desires it, and subject to an appeal to the court, determine whether a right to indemnity has arisen under this section, and, if so, award indemnity. In the event of an appeal to the court, the applicant shall not be required to pay any costs except his own, even if unsuccessful, unless the court shall consider that the appeal is unreasonable.
(6.) Where indemnity is paid for a loss, the registrar, on behalf of the Crown, shall be entitled to recover the amount paid from any person who has caused or substantially contributed to the loss by his act, neglect, or default.
(7.) A claim for indemnity under this section shall be deemed a simple contract debt, and for the purposes of the Limitation Act 1623, the cause of action shall be deemed to arise at the time when the claimant knows, or but for his own default might know, of the existence of his claim.
Amendments made: In Sub-section (2) leave out "such person stall not be deprived but."—(Mr. Cozens-Hardy.)
At end of Sub-section (3) insert,—
"and the omission to register a sufficient caution, notice, inhibition, or other restriction to protect a mortgage by deposit or other equitable interest, or any estate or interest created under Section forty-nine of the principal Act, shall be deemed neglect within the meaning of this Sub-section."
At the end of the clause add,—
"This section shall apply to the Crown in like manner as it applies to a private person."—(The Attorney General.)
Clause 8,—

LAND CERTIFICATES, OFFICE COPIES OF REGISTERED LEASES, AND CERTIFICATES OF CHARGE.
(1.) So long as a land certificate, office copy of a registered lease, or certificate of charge is outstanding, it shall be produced to the Registrar on every entry in the register of a disposition by the registered proprietor of the land or charge to which it relates, and on every registered transmission or rectification of the register, and a note of every such entry, transmission, or rectification shall be officially endorsed on the certificate or office copy, and the Registrar shall have the same powers of compelling the production of certificates and office copies as are conferred on him by Sections one hundred and nine and one hundred and ten of the principal Act as to the production of maps, surveys, books, and other documents.
(2.) Where a land certificate or office copy of a registered lease has been issued the vendor shall deliver it to the purchaser on completion of the purchase, or if only a part of the land comprised in the certificate or office copy is sold, he shall, at his own expense, produce, or procure the production of, the certificate or office copy in accordance with this section for the completion of the purchaser's registration. Where the certificate or office copy has been lost or destroyed, the vendor shall pay the costs of the proceedings required to enable the Registrar to proceed without it.
(3.) A new land certificate, office copy of a registered lease or certificate of charge shall not be granted by the Registrar in place of a former certificate, or office copy, which has been lost or destroyed, unless the applicant has filed with the Registrar a statutory declaration and such other evidence, if any, as the Registrar may think necessary, stating the fact and circumstances of the loss or destruction of the former certificate or office copy, nor until at least three advertisements of the application to the Registrar shall have been published at intervals of not less than seven days in a leading London newspaper as well as in a local newspaper circulating in the district in which the land is situate, and such indemnity (if any) given as the Registrar shall think fit.
(4.) Where a transfer of land is made by the registered proprietor of a charge, in exercise of the power of sale conferred by the charge, it may be registered, and a new land certificate may be issued to the purchaser, without production of the former land certificate, but the certificate of charge (if any) must be produced or accounted for in accordance with this section. Subject to any stipulation to the contrary, the proprietor of a registered charge shall not be entitled to have custody of the Land Certificate, or to require a Land Certificate to be applied for:—

(i.) On the first registration of freehold or leasehold land, and on the registration of a charge, a land certificate, office copy of the registered lease, or certificate of charge, as the case may be, shall be prepared, and shall either be delivered

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to the registered proprietor or deposited in the registry as the said proprietor may prefer;

(ii.) If so deposited in the registry it shall be officially endorsed from time to time, as in this section provided, with notes of all subsequent entries in the register affecting the land or charge to which it relates;

(iii.) The registered proprietor may at any time apply for the delivery of the certificate or office copy to himself or to such person as he may direct, and may at any time again deposit it in the land registry;

(iv.) The preparation, issue, endorsement, and deposit in the registry of the certificate or office copy shall be effected without cost to the proprietor.

The registered proprietor of any freehold or leasehold land or of a charge may, subject to any registered estates, charges, or rights, create a lien on the land or charge by deposit of the land certificate or office copy of registered lease, or certificate of charge; and such lien shall, subject as aforesaid, be equivalent to a lien created by the deposit of title deeds or of a mortgage deed of unregistered land by an owner entitled in fee simple or for the term or interest created by the lease for his own benefit, or by a mortgagee beneficially entitled to the mortgage.
CAPTAIN BETHELLmoved to leave out the first words of the clause, for the purpose of asking the Attorney General if he had given further consideration to a matter upon which he had spoken to the hon. and learned Gentleman. His object was to make procedure the same in all cases of transfer of land, so that the person selling should be compelled to produce one of the three certificates here mentioned before the land could be properly registered. It was done in nearly every case, but there were some cases with which it was necessary to deal.
THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid he had considered this point, and had consulted authorities. The reason for the clause was to provide for production where such was absolutely necessary. For all practical purposes that object was attained, and it was not desirable to leave out the words to meet exceptional cases.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
MR. HALDANE, on behalf of Mr. BILLSON, moved in Sub-section (3), after "until," to insert "notice of the application has been advertised in the London Gazette and."
THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid he could not quite assent to the Amendment, as it would enormously increase the expense. The Amendment was cumulative. The hon. Member contemplated an advertisement in the London and local papers and also in the Gazette. Would the hon. Member agree to amend the clause so that it should read:—
"or until at least three advertisements of the application shall have been published at intervals of not less than seven days in the London Gazette, as well as in the local newspapers"?
MR. KIMBERthought that to advertise three times in the London Gazette would be to throw away money. To advertise once would be enough to get the advertisement repeated in all the provincial newspapers. Advertising in the London Gazette was extremely expensive, and it would be quite sufficient to advertise in the paper of the county in which the land was situated.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid he was in the hands of experienced Gentlemen who knew more of the subject than he did, and invited an expression of views. He had thought that three insertions in the Gazette should be required but let it be one insertion if that was thought sufficient, and if it was thought that the advertisement should appear in a London newspaper as well, that could be kept in. He proposed after "until" to insert:—
"one advertisement of the application shall have been published in the London. Gazette, as well as in the local newspaper circulating in the district in which the land is situated."
MR. GEDGEdid not think that advertisement in the local newspaper was enough, certainly it was not in the counties near London—Surrey, for instance. He rarely read the Surrey local paper, and it was not much taken in, and certainly was not read for its advertisements. If advertised once in the London Gazette and three times in the leading London papers, and in the local papers, the desired publicity would be secured.
SIR H. FOWLERsaid it must be remembered how important was the object in view, the substitution of a certificate

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for a lost title. There was, of course, the danger of fraud, and one advertisement would not be sufficient precaution. Of course men should not lose their title deeds, but if they did here was the machinery provided by which a certificate would be available for mortgage.
THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid he could only interpose again by the leave of the House. What the right hon. Gentleman had said had great weight. It might be sufficient to leave the clause as it stood and add the words, "one advertisement in the London Gazette."
SIR H. FOWLER: But not the words leading London newspaper, or a definition will be required.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE ATTORNEY GENERALproposed after "least" to insert "one advertisement of the application in the London Gazette and."
MR. ASQUITHsaid he did not know whether it was relevant at the moment, but he must protest against the insertion of the words "leading London newspaper."
THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid the words did not come in here.
MR. ASQUITHhoped there would be opportunity of considering it, he had something to say on the point.
Amendment agreed to.
Further amendment made: Omit the words "of the application to the Registrar."—(Attorney General.)
THE ATTORNEY GENERALmoved: In Sub-section (3) after "advertisement" to insert "in a London morning newspaper."
MR. ASQUITHsaid that these words were an improvement on the words of the Bill, which might have given rise to very difficult questions of discrimination. He did not know on what principle the selection of the London paper would be made. He assumed the Government had considered the question carefully, but he should imagine that there were morning newspapers published in London which nobody ever saw and which nobody had ever read.
MR. B. L. COHENasked the Attorney General whether such papers as The Economist, The Spectator, and The Saturday Review, were not London morning newspapers?
MR. WEIRsuggested the insertion of the words, after "newspaper," "not being a newspaper published on Sunday." [Loud cheers.]
THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid that to meet the convenience of hon. Gentlemen, he was quite willing to withdraw the Amendment, and move to insert the words "London daily, newspaper."
SIR H. FOWLERsaid that originally there was no mention of the Gazette. Now that they had get the Gazette they did not want another London newspaper. They wanted the local newspapers.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendments made: After "advertisement," insert "in a London daily morning newspaper."
Omit the words "in a leading London newspaper as well as."
After the word "days," insert "three advertisements."—(Attorney General).
Clause 9,—

TRANSFERS AND CHARGES.
(1.) The provisions of Section eight of the Conveyancing and Law of Property Act 1881 shall apply, so far as applicable thereto, to transfers of registered land as though such transfers were made by deed, and a transfer of land made by the proprietor of a registered charge with power of sale shall operate as a conveyance in professed exercise of the power of sale conferred by the said Act.
(2.) The provisions of Sections nineteen, twenty, twenty-one (except Sub-sections one and four), twenty-two, twenty-three, and twenty-four, inclusive of the same Act, shall similarly apply to registered charges.
(3.) Every registered proprietor of land may, in the prescribed manner, charge it with an annuity or other periodical payment, and the provisions of the principal Act and this Act with regard to charges shall apply to any such charge. Every registered proprietor of land may charge it, in favour of a building society under the Building Societies Acts, by means of a mortgage in a form authorised by the rules of that society, and the mortgage shall be deemed a charge made in the prescribed manner, and shall be registered accordingly.
(4.) Nothing contained in any charge shall (i) take away from the registered proprietor thereof the power of transferring it by registered disposition or of requiring the cessation thereof to be noted on the register, or (ii) affect any registered dealing with land or a charge in respect of which the charge is not expressly registered or protected, in accordance with the principal Act and this Act.
(5.) The Registrar may, on the application, or with the consent, of the registered proprietor of the land, and of the proprietors of all registered charges (if any) of equal or inferior priority, alter the terms of a charge.
(6.) Where a person on whom the right to be registered as proprietor of land or of a charge has devolved by reason of the death or bankruptcy of the registered proprietor, or has been conferred by an instrument of transfer or charge, in accordance with the principal Act and this Act, desires to transfer or charge the land or to deal with the charge before he is himself registered as proprietor, he may do so in the prescribed manner, and subject to the prescribed conditions. Subject to the provisions of the principal Act with regard to registered dealings for valuable consideration, a transfer or charge so made shall have the same effect as if the person making it were registered as proprietor.
Amendment made: In Sub-section (3) leave out "in a form authorised by," and insert "made in pursuance of or consistent with."—(Mr. Jackson).
Clause 11,—

AS TO STATUTE OF 32 HEN. 8. C. 9.
Section two of the statute of the thirty-second year of the reign of Henry the Eighth, chapter nine, which prohibits sales and other dispositions of land of which the grantor or his predecessor in title has not been in possession for one whole year previously to the disposition being made, shall not apply to dispositions of registered land when completed by registration.
SIR HENRY FOWLERmoved to leave out from "made" to the end of clause, and to insert "is hereby repealed." He said it was a revelation to some of them to know that the Statute of 32 Henry VIII. was still in existence. As the Bill stood, land registered would be exempt from the operation of this mysterious statute, and an implication was created that land not registered was liable to it. He had been requested by some hon. and learned Friends who knew more about it than he did, to say that this would be creating a doubt which did not at present exist, with reference to an obsolete Statute. Therefore it would be better to get rid of it altogether.
THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid that not being a conveyancer he was unable to say whether the objection taken by the right hon. Gentleman was a valid one or not, but if gentlemen of experience in the House would say that this old section was spent and not operative, he would have no objection to its repeal.
MR. HALDANEsaid that practically it was obsolete.
Amendment agreed to.
Clause 13,—

AS TO SUCCESSION AND ESTATE DUTY.
A transfer or charge on registered land for valuable consideration shall, when registered, exempt the land in the hands of the transferee or mortgagee, and of every person claiming in his right from all liability in respect of succession duty not then due and payable, notwithstanding that he may have had actual or constructive notice thereof, and the liability for duty shall attach instead to the money arising from the sale or mortgage, and to all investments thereof.
THE ATTORNEY GENERALmoved to leave out the clause.
Motion agreed to; clause struck out.
Clause 20,—

POWER TO REQUIRE REGISTRATION.
(1.) Her Majesty the Queen may, by Order in Council, declare, as respects any county or part of a county mentioned or defined in the Order, that, on and after a day specified in the Order, registration of title to land is to be compulsory on sale, and thereupon a person shall not, under any conveyance on sale executed on or after the day so specified, acquire the legal estate in any freehold land in that county, or part of a county, unless or until he is registered as proprietor of the land.
(2.) In this Section the expression "conveyance on sale" means an instrument executed on sale by virtue whereof there is conferred or completed, a title under which an application for registration as first proprietor of land may be made under the principal Act.
(3.) The title with which a proprietor of freehold land is registered in pursuance of this section shall be not less than a possessory title; but nothing in this section shall prevent any person from being registered with any other title if the Registrar is satisfied of his title.
(4.) It shall be lawful for Her Majesty in Council to revoke or vary any Order made under this section.
(5.) In the case of every Order proposed to be made under this section, notice shall, six months before the order is made, be given to the council of the county to which such order is proposed to be applied. A draft of the proposed order, together with the name of at least one place within or conveniently near to the county where a district registry office will

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be established, shall accompany the notice, and shall also be published in the Gazette.
(6.) If within three months after receipt of the draft the county council, at a meeting specially called for the purpose, at which two-thirds of the whole number of the members shall be present, resolve, and communicate to the Privy Council their resolution, that in their opinion compulsory registration of title would not tend to facilitate or cheapen the transfer of land in their county, the order shall not be made.
(7.) The first Order made under this section shall not affect more than one county.
(8.) Except as to a county which shall have signified through its county council, pursuant to a resolution of such council passed at a meeting at which two-thirds of the whole number of the members shall be present, its desire that registration of title shall be compulsorily applied to it, no further order shall be made under this section until the expiration of three years from the making of the first order.
(9.) Any order made under this section shall be made with due regard to the utilisation (if practicable) of any land registry existing in the county to which compulsory registration is proposed to be applied or in any adjoining county.
(10.) For the purposes of this section the word county shall have the same meaning as in the Local Government Act 1888, and shall include a county borough; and the word county council shall include the council of such borough.
(11.) The City of London shall be a separate county, and the mayor, aldermen, and commons, in common council assembled shall be deemed the county council thereof; and for the purpose of this section the representation of the said city on the London County Council shall not be computed in the number of the county councils not entitled to vote.
(12.) Proceedings in regard to any proposed order may be taken at any time after the passing of this Act.
MR. GEDGEmoved to leave out the clause, in order to raise the question of the inclusion of the administrative County of London. He moved the omission of the clause, unless the Government would say they would not take as the subject of their first experiment the administrative County of London.
MR. KIMBERthought that the compromise suggested by the First Lord of the Treasury ought to be accepted. He regretted that the Government desired to make this Bill compulsory in any county whatever; but it was a fair experiment to be made, and he thought they ought to let the Government have their fling as regarded the first county they made their victim. The good effect of their experiment, however, would be marred by the fact that they made it compulsory, because they would never be
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able to say in that county that it had succeeded and been accepted by the people. But the House ought to have time to consider the Amendment of the Attorney General giving effect to the compromise; the text of the clause should be put on the Paper and considered at the next stage of the Bill.
SIR H. FOWLERsuggested the postponement of the further consideration of the Bill until To-morrow, so that in the meantime the clause might be printed. As it stood the Amendment did not carry out what the First Lord of the Treasury suggested. According to Sub-section E it would be competent for the Government to make an Order in Council in respect to every county in England. He knew that the Government did not mean this. There was to be an experiment tried on one county for three years, and he moved to insert "as respects any one county."
THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid that by Sub-section (7) the first order made under this section was not to affect more than one county, and there only one order could be made except on the application of the County Council. He was satisfied that by the Amendment he had proposed only one order could be made for one county, and that no other order could be made except on the application of the County Council.
CAPTAIN BETHELLsaid that supposing the County Council of London rejected the Order made by the Lord Chancellor, would the Lord Chancellor be able to make an Order for one other county?
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL: Yes, for one other county.
CAPTAIN BETHELL: So that he would be able to run through all the counties of England each in turn.
MR. GEDGEsaid it was hardly worth while keeping up the distinction between an application of a County Council for an order and a resolution of a County Council against an order. The simplest way would be to state that no order should be made in any county until the County Council had applied for it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
MR. BUTCHER, who had given notice to move in Sub-section (8), after "county," to insert "or part of a county," said, as he understood the Attorney General's object was to enable him to

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apply the Bill to a portion of the administrative County of London, he would not move the Amendment which stood in his name.
MR. GEDGEmoved, in Sub-section (6), to leave out "tend to facilitate or cheapen the transfer of land," and insert "be desirable." His reason for moving this Amendment was that if a County Council did not wish the Act to be applied to their county he did not see why they should be limited to one particular reason. They might be of opinion that the Act might tend to cheapen land transfer, yet they might think it undesirable for other reasons.
THE ATTORNEY GENERALthought the words ought to be left in. Their object was that the attention of the Council might be directed to what he considered were the main points.
MR. BUTCHERthought there was much force in the Amendment. The County Council ought not to be limited to specific reasons, when there might be other reasons which to them appeared to be equally cogent. As he gathered, it was intended that the County Council should have a veto on the application of the Act to their county, and why should they not trust the Council? As drawn, the Bill placed an undue restriction on the discretion of the County Council.
Amendment agreed to.
SIR H. FOWLERmoved to add at the end of Sub-section (7)—"And no further order shall be made under this section before the expiration of three years." The Amendment moved by the Attorney General was most important; there would be no opportunity of revision; and if the Debate were adjourned there would be an opportunity of considering the question.
THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURYsaid that there was reason in what the right hon. Gentleman said, and if the Government consented to adjourn the further consideration of the Bill he hoped the House would second the Government in rapidly disposing of the Report stage To-morrow and would then Read the Bill a Third time. ["Hear, hear!"] If the Government could count on the House doing that they would not press the Bill now. ["Hear, hear!"]
MR. ASQUITHthought it was important to have the new clause on the
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Paper, and if the consideration were adjourned the House would be most desirous to accept the fair offer of the First Lord of the Treasury.
MR. SPEAKERsuggested that the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton should withdraw his Amendment for the present, as there seemed to be some doubt as to the place at which it should come in.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Resolved, that the further proceedings on consideration be adjourned until Tomorrow.—(First Lord of the Treasury.)

MERCHANT SHIPPING (EXEMPTION FROM PILOTAGE) BILL.
Considered in Committee.
Clause 1,—

ABOLITION OF EXEMPTIONS FROM COMPULSORY PILOTAGE UNDER 6 GEO. 4, C. 125, S. 59.
As from the first day of July one thousand eight hundred and ninety-eight, section six hundred and three of the Merchant Shipping Act 1894, shall cease to operate so far as it continues the exemptions granted by the section set out in the schedule to this Act.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. C. T. RITCHIE,)moved to leave out all the words after "1894," and to insert the words—
"so far as it continues the exemptions granted by Section 59 of the Act passed in the sixth year of King George IV., chapter 125, and extended by the Order in Council of the 18th February, 1854, and the said Order in Council shall cease to operate in the case of ships or vessels on voyages between any port in Sweden or Norway and the port of the London."
Amendment agreed to; clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
MR. RITCHIEmoved to leave out the schedule.
Motion agreed to.
Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended, considered; read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Whereupon, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 15th July last, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put.
House adjourned accordingly at a Quarter before Twelve o'clock.