Commons Sitting of 14 July 1896

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

  DUBLIN CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
  Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [13th July],
  "That it he an Instruction to the Committee on the Dublin Corporation Bill [Lords] to inquire whether provision should he made in the Bill to secure under the extended franchise the representation of minorities in the Corporation, and, if they think lit, to provide for the same by the election of the councillors triennially by the cumulative vote or otherwise":—(Mr. Knox.)—
  Question again proposed:—
  MR. VESEY KNOXsaid he was told that an agreement had been arrived at by which an Instruction which stood in the name of one of his hon. Friends should be accepted, and in these circumstances he begged to withdraw the Motion which he had submitted.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR D. MACALEESE MR D. MACALEESE (Monaghan, N.) moved,
  "That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to make provision for an amendment of the law as to the election and tenure of office of aldermen, councillors, and assessors, and as to the appointment and tenure of office of any officers annually elected by the Corporation or appointed by any persons nominated by the Corporation."
  Motion agreed to.

NATIONAL TEACHERS' PENSION FUND (IRELAND).
Return [presented 13th July] to be printed.—[No. 294.]
QUARTER SESSIONS (IRELAND) CRIMINAL ISSUES.
Return [presented 13th July] to be printed.—[No. 295.]

COAL MINES REGULATION ACT (1887) AMENDMENT (No. 2) BILL.
Reported from the Standing Committee on Trade, etc.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.—[No. 296.]
Minutes of proceedings to be printed.—[No. 296.]
Bill as amended (by the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration To-morrow, and to be printed.—[Bill 315.]

QUESTIONS.

  TELEGRAPHIC EXTENSIONS (SCOTLAND).
  SIR WILLIAM DUNN: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, if his attention has been called to page xxiv. of the recently issued General Report of the Fishery Board for Scotland, in which they complain that, while the profits reaped at certain telegraphic extensions goes intact into the hands of the Post Office, they exact from the guarantors the full amount of the deficit in the revenue at offices which are not patronised to the same extent, but are quite as useful; and whether it is possible for some change to be made whereby the matter complained of by the Fishery Board may be remedied, at any rate when the period for which the guarantees were given is ended?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. R. W. HANBURY,): The attention of the Postmaster General has been called to the paragraph of the Report to which the hon. Member refers. The guarantees given by the Fishery Board of Scotland being about to expire the Postmaster General will be happy to look into the arrangements, and to see whether it is possible for any relief to be given in any case. It is right, however, to point out that it is the essence of a guarantee that it should protect the public against loss in the particular case to which the guarantee applies, and that it would not be possible to maintain
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  the system if the profit earned at one place were to be set against the loss incurred at another served by a different line of wires. The Fishery Board ignore the fact that Scotch telegraphic extensions already receive exceptional assistance in the form of a special grant under the Highlands and Islands Vote.

MATABELELAND.
MR. THOMAS BAYLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been directed to a speech made on the 18th May at Bulawayo by Earl Grey, as Administrator of Matabeleland, reported in the Bulawayo Chronicle, in which he stated that the ill-treatment of natives by white settlers was not the least potent of the causes of the present rebellion; and whether he will call upon Sir Richard Martin for an immediate report as to the grounds of this allegation and also as to the nature of the arrangements contemplated by the authorities, and indicated in Earl Grey's speech, for securing a more regular and continuous supply of labour?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN,): I have not seen any detailed report of Lord Grey's speech. I gather, however, that his Lordship's remarks with regard to the ill-treatment of natives by white settlers being amongst the causes of the present rebellion referred to incidents which, in a newly-settled country the size of Central Europe, are sometimes beyond the power of any administration to prevent, and that the measures contemplated by him are intended to provide certain safeguards against the recurrence of such incidents in future. Sir Richard Martin has already been instructed to institute an inquiry into the labour question, which will, of course, include its bearing on the recent rebellion, and he will report on the nature of any fresh arrangements which may be proposed on the subject.
MR. JOHN ELLISasked whether the right hon. Gentleman would give his personal attention to any arrangements affecting labour before they came into force?
MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Most certainly.

SALE OF INTOXICANTS (HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT).
SIR WILFRID LAWSON: I beg to ask the noble Lord, the Member for West Houghton, Lancashire, whether the Kitchen Committee have taken the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown as to the legality of supplying intoxicating liquors to purchasers without having obtained a licence for that purpose?
LORD STANLEY: No licence is taken out, and, as far as I can ascertain, there has never been one. I do not therefore propose consulting the Law Officers as to the legality of this long-standing custom. [Laughter and "Hear, hear!"]
SIR WILFRID LAWSON: Then is drink sold in the same way as at a bogus treating club? [Laughter.]
[No answer was given.]

ORDNANCE FACTORIES.
SIR BEVAN EDWARDS: I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office if his attention has been called to the position of the managers of the Ordnance Factories, whether for some years past they have been treated as ordinary labourers, and liable to dismissal at a week's notice? If so, will he take steps to remedy this by placing them on the establishment, as is done in the case of the Admiralty Dockyards?
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Mr. POWELL-WILLIAMS,): Managers appointed during the last few years are on the Wages Vote, which renders it practicable to dispense with the services of an inefficient manager at short notice. In no other way are they on the same footing as labourers. They have special leave, and allowances when absent on duty, and full pay when sick, irrespective of length of service.

COLONEL F. H. RICH.
SIR BEVAN EDWARDS: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if his attention has been called to the case of Colonel F. H. Rich, late Inspector of Railways under the Board of Trade, and to the reply of the Secretary to the Treasury to a question asked in this House on the 12th December 1894; and, if so, whether he is now prepared to give
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Colonel Rich the amount of the stoppages made from his retired pay and Civil Service pension?
MR. HANBURY: My attention has been called to this case, which has been considered by the present Government as well as by their predecessors. Between 1886 and 1891 the Civil salary of Colonel Rich was more than three times the amount of his Army retired pay. Under a well-recognised rule of the War Office, dating from 1822, a deduction had to be made from his total remuneration under these circumstances, and his retired pay was temporarily reduced accordingly. When Colonel Rich accepted a post in the Civil Service, he did so under this condition. During the years 1861 to 1873, he was seconded from the Army and still qualifying for Army retired pay, which he is now receiving. He claims that those years shall also count for Civil pension, or in other words that he should receive a double pension in respect of those 12 years. This is obviously unreasonable. He retired from the Civil employment in 1891, and received the usual Civil pension. But in 1894 a change was made in the system of calculating such a pension, and he not only received a higher pension from that date, but the effect of the change was made retrospective. The difference for the years 1891–4 has already been paid to him in accordance with the promise of my predecessor.

SMALL ARMS FACTORY (ENFIELD).
SIR BEVAN EDWARDS: I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether anyone has yet been appointed to succeed Mr. Rigby as superintendent of the Small Arms Factory at Enfield, and can he give the reason for this long delay in filling up such an important post; and, can he state who has been in charge of this factory since Mr. Rigby left on the 1st January last?
MR. POWELL-WILLIAMS: No successor to Mr. Rigby has yet been appointed, but a recommendation in the matter will very shortly be put forward. Meanwhile, the supervision of the small Arms Factory has been in the hands of the Director-General of the Ordnance Factories, who, with his assistants, has personally taken charge.

ORANGE DEMONSTRATION AT BESSBROOK.
MR. D. MACALEESE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary I to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Orangemen of Bessbrook, at the hour of 1 o'clock a.m., on the 2nd July, marched through the streets of the village, playing party music and indulging in coarse party expressions; that they broke windows in the houses of several Roman Catholic inhabitants of the village; that they halted opposite the Roman Catholic Church and Presbytery, and finally fired a volley of stones at these buildings; whether, seeing that the village of Bess-brook contains a population of 4,000 inhabitants, and is entirely unprotected by constabulary, the nearest police station being two miles distant, he will cause investigations to be made with a view to establish in this village a properly equipped police barrack for the safety of its inhabitants; have memorials extensively and influentially signed, both by Protestants and Catholics, been forwarded to Dublin Castle praying for the establishment of such a barrack; and, on what grounds has this request not been complied with?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR,): I am informed that there was a demonstration at Bessbrook on the night of the 1st July, in the course of which party music was played and party expressions were used. Two panes of glass in the houses of Roman Catholics and three panes in the Roman Catholic Chapel and Presbytery were also broken on the occasion, the amount of damage done being estimated at about seven shillings. Memorials have been received from time to time in favour of he establishment of a police barrack at Bessbrook; but hitherto it has not been considered necessary to station police in the village, in consequence of the facilities for patrolling it afforded from Camlough and Newry, which are only two and three miles distant respectively; and because, also, of the general peacefulness of the inhabitants of Bessbrook and its freedom from crime. At present I see no sufficient reasons for altering the decision previously arrived at in this respect; but I will look further into the matter, and see whether the requirements
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of Bessbrook are adequately met by existing arrangements.
SIR WILFRID LAWSON: As regards the freedom of the district from crime, is it not the fact that there are no public-houses in the district?
MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I believe there is no public-house there.
MR. MACALEESE: Am I to understand that the breaking of the windows of the Catholics is to be attributed to the fact that there are no public-houses in that part of the country? [Laughter.]
MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I have no reason to believe that. [Laughter.]
MR. MACALEESE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received a report from the Constabulary at Camlough or Newry, or from any other source, to the effect that on Sunday the 12th July instant certain Orangemen cursed the Pope at the Catholic church in Bessbrook, and used offensive language to females who were there; also that three Orangemen, on Monday the 13th July instant, fired shots at a Catholic named O'Hanlan; and, have any arrests been made in connection with these outrages?
MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I am making inquiry into the occurrences alleged in this. Question, and will thank the hon. Member to postpone it until Thursday next.

TELEGRAPHS.
MR. HENNIKER HEATON: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General—(1) whether he will state the total amount of the loss sustained on the telegraphs in this country since they were acquired by the State, including the amount for interest on the purchase-money of such telegraphs; (2) whether he will also give the total amount expended in the same period on the acquisition of sites for and the erection of telegraph offices, and also the estimated total value of the said sites and offices at the present day; and (3) whether the cost of acquiring the said sites and erecting telegraph offices has been defrayed from year to year out of current revenue; or, if not, what amount has been defrayed out of current revenue?
MR. HANBURY: The information asked for in the first paragraph of the hon. Member's Question will be found in Parliamentary Paper No. 5 of this Session, and has already been given to him in reply to a previous question asked on April 28. The total deficiency to March 31, 1895, is £5,847,110 3s. 6d. The proportion chargeable to telegraph account of the expenditure to the same date on sites and buildings, as shown in Parliamentary Paper No. 37 of February 11, 1895, amounts to £1,241,774. No estimate of the present worth of such sites and buildings can be given without a special valuation in each case. The whole cost of acquiring sites and buildings has been defrayed out of the sums voted for the purpose by Parliament from year to year.
MR. HENNIKER HEATONasked whether the Secretary to the Treasury was aware that the two returns were contradictory?
MR. HANBURY: I do not think they are.

ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS (ART TEACHING).
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education whether he has considered the expediency of introducing elementary modelling into the "Alternative Art Scheme" for teaching elementary Art in elementary public schools?
THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Sir JOHN GORST,): The Committee of Council have not considered the question. I fear that it would be very expensive and difficult to carry out the suggestion of the right hon. Member.

NAVAL RESERVE.
SIR EDWARD GOURLEY: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty if he can state how many second class Naval Reserve men have volunteered for service in the current manœuvres, and for what period; whether the pay will be equivalent to that current in the home trades of the mercantile marine and the summer fishery service; and, will he state from which places the men have accepted the Admiralty proposals?
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. G. J. GOSCHEN,): 216 first class seamen and 471 second class seamen of the Royal Naval Reserve volunteered for service in the current manœuvres which will last 38 days. Men embarked for the manœuvres receive pay and allowances according to the well known published scales for voluntary service in the Navy. Of the approximate number of 537 men embarked, 267 are from 36 ports in England and Wales, 178 from 11 ports in Ireland, and 92 from 8 ports in Scotland.

NAVAL MANŒUVRES.
SIR EDWARD GOURLEY: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether any and what experiments are to be made during the Naval Manœuvres for coaling the fleets at sea, or are all the vessels requiring fuel to return to assigned harbours for this purpose?
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY: The Naval Manœuvres will not include experiments for coaling the fleets at sea.
CAPTAIN DONELAN: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether it is intended to utilise Queenstown Harbour as a rendezvous for Her Majesty's ships during the forthcoming Naval Manœuvres?
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY: As I have before explained, I cannot give any further details as to the probable movements of the fleets, beyond that already published.

SOUTH KENSINGTON ART LIBRARY.
LORD BALCARRES: I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education if he can state the approximate number of engraved national portraits in the Dyce and Forster Collection in the Art Library at South Kensington which are not included in the recently published catalogue of engraved national prints?
SIR J. GORST: There are about 360 separate engraved national portraits in the Dyce and Forster Collection. They are included in the Dyce and Forster printed catalogues.

MUTINY (REPORTED) (H.M.S. "ORLANDO").
MR. J. F. HOGAN: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he has received any official confirmation of the statement that there was recently a serious mutiny on board H.M.S. Orlando, caused by the intolerably long hours the men were compelled to remain on duty?
THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. W. E. MACARTNEY,): No, Sir, I know nothing about it.

STREET COLLECTIONS.
MR. HOGAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether women who make collections for alleged charitable purposes in the streets of London on Saturdays are paid by commission on the amounts they collect; and whether, having regard to the dimensions that this practice has assumed of late and the peculiar liability of such a system of collection to abuse and imposition, he will call for police reports on the subject?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir MATTHEW WHITE, RIDLEY): I have no knowledge or means of knowledge as to the point raised in the first part of the question. It is obvious that the system of street collections may easily become a cause of annoyance or be taken advantage of for fraudulent purposes, and it is no doubt one that requires watching. No complaints, however, have reached me as yet, and there is nothing at present before me on which I can ask the police to report.
MR. GIBSON BOWLESasked whether the collections in question did not come under the law as to begging.
SIR MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEYsaid the law as to beggars treated them as rogues and vagabonds, and he doubted whether those who carried collecting boxes in the streets for charitable purposes would come under that description. [Laughter.]
*SIR F. DIXON HARTLANDasked whether the Home Secretary was aware that collections were made in boxes last Sunday
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in all the parks as well as in the streets.
SIR MATHEW WHITE RIDLEY: I am not aware of that fact.
MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Does not the law as to molestation apply to this? I was molested at least half a dozen times. [Laughter.]

POOR LAW SCHOOLS.
MR. JAMES STUART: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he will take such steps as may be necessary to secure that Poor Law Schools shall, where the guardians apply and where the Local Government Board assents, be placed, so far as the education of the children is concerned, under the inspection of the Education Department of the Privy Council?
THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. HENRY CHAPLIN,): Subject to the concurrence of the Education Department, I shall be quite willing and very glad to facilitate the transfer to that Department of the inspection of Poor Law Schools, so far as the education of the children is concerned.
MR. MUNDELLA: Has the right hon. Gentleman secured the assent of the Education Department, or endeavoured to do so, because there is a strong feeling amongst the Poor Law Guardians of the country in favour of the suggestion.
MR. CHAPLIN: I am aware the Boards of Guardians are strongly in its favour, and I am in communication with the Education Department
MR. STUARTasked if the President of the Local Government Board would look at certain memorials that had been addressed to the Local Government Board, and take into account the fact that the year before last the Education Department was willing to undertake the Inspection of Poor Law Schools.
MR. CHAPLINsignified assent.

VALUATION ROLLS (SCOTCH COUNTIES.)
MR. J. W. CROMBIE: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate, whether copies of the Valuation Rolls of the Scotch counties are kept at the Scotch

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Office, and if they are accessible to Members; and, whether he will endeavour to arrange with the proper authorities that copies of these Valuation Rolls of the current year be kept in the Library of the House?
*THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. GRAHAM MURRAY,): A few years ago the Secretary for Scotland made inquiry with the view of having these Valuation Rolls supplied to the Scotch Office, but it was found that many of them were not printed and from one cause or another it was practically impossible to carry out the idea to the full extent. There is consequently no set of the Valuation Rolls at Dover House. The same difficulties naturally present themselves in regard to the suggestion made in the second part of the Question and though personally I cannot speak for the Library authorities of the House, do not for the reasons given, see my way to suggest such a course.

COLONIAL OFFICE STAFF.
CAPTAIN NORTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware of the statement made in this House, on the 10th December 1888, by the then Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, that the Secretary of State was of opinion that any increase of staff in the Colonial Office which might be rendered necessary thereafter by the increasing business of the Office might be met by an extension of the number of second division clerks, and whether he has satisfied himself that the increase of staff in his Department, which the pressure of work renders necessary, can be made in the manner contemplated; whether he is aware the essence of the proposals of the Ridley Commissioners, as stated by them in paragraph 118 of their second Report, was to assign a greatly increased share of the work of the public Departments to clerks of the second division, and whether he is prepared to give effect to that recommendation; and, whether he has considered the representations made to him by the second division clerks serving in his Department, in their letters of the 6th February and 22nd May last regarding their prospects in the Colonial Office.
MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Since the year 1888, and particularly during the last year, the business of the Department has increased to an extent that has rendered necessary an increase of staff in the Colonial Office, not only in the second division, but also in the upper division. Steps have been taken since that date, and are still being taken, to assign to the clerks of the second division a larger share of the work; it is recognised that they perform such work as can properly be assigned to them most creditably, and I am still in correspondence with the Treasury as to various arrangements which will improve their prospects. But after careful and full consideration of the representations made by the second division clerks, and of the important and complicated nature of a large number of questions that are constantly arising in the Department, I have satisfied myself of the primary necessity of securing for the work of the Department a slightly increased staff of gentlemen of the highest education who can be secured by open competition for the public service. Accordingly two of the latter class are about to be added to the staff. On the general question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by Mr. Buxton on this subject on December 5, 1893, with which I desire to associate myself.

RAILWAY ACCIDENT AT PRESTON.
MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the serious accident which occurred to what is known as the London and North Western "Racer" at Preston, at mid-might on Sunday night, on its journey from Euston to Aberdeen, a train which held the record this year for travelling 105 miles in 105 minutes; and, whether, in view of the great risks to the travelling public connected with this practice of rival railway companies racing to Scotland, the Board of Trade will make strong representations to the said companies on the subject?
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. C. T. RITCHIE,): I have received a Return of the accident referred to, and have directed an inspecting officer of the Department

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to hold an Inquiry. Until I receive the Report of his Inquiry I am unable to say what representation (if any) I shall make to the railway company.
SIR WILFRID LAWSONasked whether there had been a single accident due to the high speed of those trains?
MR. RITCHIE: I cannot answer that question without notice; but I am not prepared to admit that high speed means danger.

ROYAL CANAL (IRELAND).
MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury what steps, if any, have been taken to put the Commissioners of Works in Ireland in motion regarding the complaints made as to the want of facilities for traffic on the Royal Canal; and, whether he will have an Inquiry ordered into the complaints as to the depth of water in the canal, and its choked up state for want of weeding and proper attention?
MR. HANBURY: The Treasury are awaiting a Report from the Commissioners of Works on this subject. When it is received, they will consider if any, and what, action should be taken.

LIGHT RAILWAYS (IRELAND) BILL.
MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he intends to proceed with the Light Railways Bill in Committee of the Whole House, or refer it, as was done in the case of the Labourers Bill, to the Standing Committee on Law?
MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I propose that this Bill should be sent, as the English Light Railways Bill was sent, to the Standing Committee on Trade.

BURMAH AND CHIN HILLS MILITARY OPERATIONS.
CAPTAIN GRICE-HUTCHINSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India, whether, in view of the fact that a decoration is to be issued to the troops employed in the late Ashanti expedition, he will reconsider the decision arrived at to withhold a medal from the British and
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Indian troops who served in the operations in Burmah and the Chin Hills in 1892–3?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (LORD GEORGE HAMILTON,): After fully considering the question, I can see no reasons for modifying the decision arrived at in 1894 not to grant the Indian medal to troops who served in the operations in Burmah and the Chin Hills in 1892–3, and to that decision I must adhere.

GOLD COAST (EUROPEAN OFFICIALS).
DR. FARQUHARSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been directed to the exceptionally heavy recent rate of mortality among European officials on the Gold Coast; and, whether anything is being done, or can be done, to remedy this unsatisfactory state of matters?
MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes, Sir; my attention has been directed to the exceptionally large number of deaths which occurred among the European residents, unofficial as well as official, in the early part of this year, and on March 11 I wrote to the Governor begging him to consider what further steps could be taken to improve the conditions of life on the coast. It cannot be hoped that all the causes of malarial fever will be removed; but much has been, and is still being done, by the erection of new buildings in better situations, and providing means of recreation, to keep the European officers in good health, and attempts are being made by boring to obtain a supply of good water, which will be of immense benefit to the whole community. The Governor, Sir William Maxwell, is giving the most careful attention to the subject, and will be supported by me in any improvements he may be able to introduce.

SCOTCH OATH (MIDHURST BENCH).
DR. FARQUHARSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the proceedings before the Midhurst Bench on 30th April, as reported in the British Medical Journal for 30th May, from which it appears that the chairman refused to accept the

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evidence of an essential witness in an important case, because he claimed to be sworn in the Scotch fashion; and whether, seeing that any witness has an absolute right by statute to demand to be sworn in the Scottish fashion without kissing the book, he will call the attention of the Lord Chancellor to the matter?
SIR MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEY: I have made inquiries, and am informed that the report is incorrect. It seems that the Clerk to the Justices was on the point of administering the oath to a witness in the case alluded to in the Scotch form, when it appeared that the evidence which he was about to give was immaterial, and on an intimation from the Justices that they regarded it in that light, the solicitor for the defence withdrew the witness. In no instance, I am informed, have the Justices refused to administer the oath in the Scotch form.

METROPOLITAN COUNTIES WATER BOARD BILL.
MR. B. L. COHEN: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he can give facilities for the Second Reading of the Metropolitan Counties Water Board Bill, which has passed the other House of Parliament; and, if it should be impossible to pass the Measure into law this Session, whether Her Majesty's Government will introduce a Measure next Session to arrange for the transfer of the water supply of the Metropolis from the Water Companies?
SIR F. DLXON-HARTLAND: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he is aware that the Homo Counties interested are utterly opposed to the Metropolitan Counties Water Board Bill, and desire to maintain the rights they already possess, and have control over their own water, and will give the most strenuous resistance to a Measure which virtually places them under the London County Council: and, whether, under these circumstances, he will consider the advisability of withdrawing the Bill?
MR. CHAPLIN: My right hon. Friend, the First Lord of the Treasury, has asked me to answer these questions. In reply to the latter, I must guard
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myself against any adhesion to the proviso of the hon. Member that the Home Counties interested are utterly opposed to the Bill in question. My information would lead me to a rather opposite conclusion. In reply to the first question, it is obvious in the present state of public business that unless the Bill was absolutely uncontentious it would be hopeless to pass it into law during the present Session. [Opposition cheers.] I do not propose therefore to proceed with the Second Reading. The Government, however, are fully alive to the importance of this question, and they hope to take an early opportunity of dealing with it next Session. [Cheers.]

LAND LAW (IRELAND) BILL.
MR. JOHN DILLON: Possibly the Chief Secretary would be willing now to make the statement in reference to the Irish Land Bill which, in reply to a Question put by me last night, he promised he would make tonight on the adjournment of the House, because the Finance Bill is down for tonight, and it is possible that the discussion on that Measure may go on until such an hour to-night that it would not be convenient for him to make the announcement be promised?
MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I would gladly comply with the hon. Gentleman's request; but before I make the statement I should like to ascertain a little more of the views of hon. Gentlemen opposite. [Laughter.]
MR. DILLON: Would the right hon. Gentleman say, if he does not get the opportunity of making the statement to-night, he will make it at the commencement of public business to-morrow?
MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Yes, Sir; if I am unable to make the statement to-night, will try to meet the wishes of hon. Gentlemen and make the statement to-morrow.
MR. JOHN MORLEY: I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree with me that it would be highly inconvenient to leave an important announcement of this sort in doubt as to when it will be made; and does he not think it would be better to put it off definitely until the commencement of public business to-morrow? ["Hear, hear!"]
MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Yes, Sir; if that is the general wish, I will agree to it. ["Hear, hear!"]
MR. T. M. HEALY: I wish to ask the Chief Secretary whether he would postpone the Vote on the Land Commission in Supply until we make further progress with the Land Bill?
MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I will communicate with my right hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury on the matter; but, at all events, I can undertake that the Vote will not be taken next Friday.

SURVEYORS (DUBLIN COUNTY).
Bill to amend the Law relative to the appointment of Surveyors in the County Dublin, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Clancy and Mr. Horace Plunkett; presented, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Thursday, and to be printed.—[No. 316.]
CONVEYANCING AND LAW OF PROPERTY.
Bill to amend the Conveyancing Acts, ordered to be brought in by Sir John Brunner, Sir Robert Reid, Mr. Arthur O'Connor, and Mr. Lyttelton; presented, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed.—[No. 317.]
ACCOUNTANTS (No. 2.).
Bill to complete the organisation of the profession of Accountant throughout the United Kingdom, ordered to be brought in by Colonel Denny, Mr. Colville, Mr. Pryce-Jones, Mr. Matthew Fowler, and Mr. Patrick O'Brien; presented, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed.—[No. 318.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  AGRICULTURAL RATES, CONGESTED DISTRICTS' AND BURGH LAND-TAX RELIEF (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed to Question [13th July], "That the Bill be now read a Second time":—
  And which Amendment was, to leave out from the word "That," to the end of the Question, in order to add instead thereof the words:—
  "this House is of opinion that the money to he allocated to Scotland under this Bill ought not to he applied almost exclusively to the benefit of one class only of the people of Scotland,"—(Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman.)
  Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  Debate resumed:—
  MR. ROBINSON SOUTTAR, who was speaking at 12 o'clock the preceding night when the Debate stood adjourned, resumed his speech. The Lord Advocate, he remarked, when asking leave to bring in the Bill, said:—
  "We give the agricultural occupiers relief. Note, that we give the relief to the occupiers alone. We do not touch the landlord; and I hope we shall hear no more of doles to the landlord. Speaking generally, the land in Scotland is let on five years' leases; and as regards that peculiar class, the crofters, it is impossible that relief to them can in any way reach the landlord."
  *THE LORD ADVOCATE: I never said the land in Scotland is let on five years' leases, but on leases with a minimum currency of five years to run, which is a different thing.
  MR. SOUTTARsaid it was the same thing so far as his argument was concerned. What the Lord Advocate had said in regard to the crofters was perfectly true in the parts of Scotland that were under the Crofters' Act, but crofters in parts of Scotland which were not under that Act would be in the same

  1437
  position as leaseholders of every kind. Again, what the Lord Advocate had said in regard to leases would be perfectly true and just if it were the fact that all leases began to run before the policy of the Government had been declared. But leases were falling in every day; and in the case of every lease that fell in now, or during the five years the Act would be in operation, the landlords would certainly discount this allowance to the occupier. It would be much more straightforward if the Government would boldly declare that they intended to reduce the land's share of the burden of local taxation, and that they did not care whether the farmer or the landlord got the benefit of the reduction. That would be an intelligible policy, though it would come with a better grace after the Inquiry Promised by the Government had been concluded. He did not believe that the Government grasped the true reason of the agricultural depression any more than the Royal Commission had done. The Commission's Report discussed various quack remedies, but none which did not merely shift the burden from the farmer to someone else. As to low prices, there was not a tradesman or manufacturer who was not suffering from them as much as the farmer. But the manufacturers kept abreast of the times, improved their machinery, and watched the markets keenly. No doubt agriculturists in Scotland were more abreast of the times than in England; and that was largely due to the fact that in Scotland there was a Board School in every parish. But he had visited places in England where farmers were making great profits, in one case out of new potatoes, in another case out of asparagus and fine vegetables, and in a third case out of strawberries. One of these places was in Cheshire, another' in Worcestershire, and the third in the eastern counties. And as to cereals, only last week Members were given an opportunity by a noble Lord of seeing some remarkable results obtained by cross-fertilisation. A Member of the House of Commons had spent his life and broken his heart in experimenting for the benefit of the English farmer; and that gentleman said that if common sense were shown in the cultivation of cereals, 400 millions could be added to the value of our agricultural
  1438
  produce. Scientists had declared that the soil of England ought to produce from 30 to 50 per cent. more than it was producing; and why did not the Government find some cause for that leakage? It was simply and solely the result of the conditions on which land was held in this country. He had nothing to say against landowners, but that did not alter the fact that if the farmer put energy, intelligence, enterprise and money into his land the landlord would ultimately get the benefit of it. The reason of the agrarian disturbances in Ireland 25 years ago was the miserable condition of the Irish peasantry. But a great change, largely due to the efforts of the Nationalist Members, had come over Ireland, and the Irish peasants were rapidly becoming thrifty and contented. The ease of the Scotch farmer was only different from that of the Irish in degree, and in the fact that his landlord was his own kith and kin, and of his own religious faith. But supposing the British farmer took up some new system of cultivation and made a great profit, how long would he be able to keep it to himself? Only till the expiration of his lease. No one who did not conceal his prosperity had the slightest chance of doing more than earn his living. The only remedy was to insure to the toiler the result of his toil. If the Government were to devote the money available under the Bill to enabling small holders to become possessed of their holdings, they would do much more good than by the present proposals. No compulsion would be necessary, as whole estates were only waiting for buyers. It was the magic of ownership which turned the sand into gold. If the Government would legislate on these lines they would earn the gratitude of all Scotchmen, and would do good to every class in the community.
  MR. C. B. RENSHAWobserved that the hon. Member who had just sat down avoided discussing the particular clauses of the Bill, and he did not envy his feelings when he visited Dumfriesshire after opposing this Bill. He denied that, as the Amendment suggested, the money would be applied almost exclusively to the benefit of one class. He should show that that was not the case in many parishes. There

  1439
  seemed to be an underlying fallacy in the Amendment. The other side appeared to think there was a possibility of stirring up the feeling of the towns as against the rural population in regard to this question. He ventured to say that, suffering as the farmers did from low prices, there was no class which so benefited from the difficulties of the farmers as the industrial population in the large towns. There was a singular appropriateness in the suggestion of the fraction which was to be dealt with under this Bill. The tenant-farmer would be relieved to the extent of three-eighths of his valuation, that being exactly the amount on which he was now rated in respect of Income Tax under the Finance Bill of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer. That was a strong reason why, in respect of his contribution to local expenditure, a similar amount should be fixed. In the circular issued by the Board of Supervision in 1868 it was laid down that in assessments for the relief of the poor the equitable principle should be observed that everyone should contribute in proportion to his income. That principle had been observed in most cases where classification had been brought into operation, but still there were other eases where genuine hardship was felt. Take the case of a farmer in a classified parish paying a net rental of £500 a year, and his county and parish rates 1s. in the pound. That made his contribution, paying upon the net rental, £25; but the professional man in the same parish, living in a house of £100 rental, would only pay £5. There could be no doubt that the farmer was not able to contribute to the local rates on his rent of £500 so easily as the individual who lived in a villa was to pay upon his £100 house. The proportion was altogether preposterous and ridiculous. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bridgeton in his speech rather suggested that there was practically no depression in agriculture in Scotland. The Report of the Agricultural Commission told a very different story. Mr. Hope, in his Report, stated that in all quarters he had ascertained that depression of a very acute kind had prevailed during the last 10 years. Mr. Spiers reported that in Ayrshire, Wigtown, Dumfries and Kirkcudbright depression existed to
  1440
  a greater or less extent, and that both landlords and tenants had felt the pinch of hard times. Mr. Hope, again, speaking of Fife, Forfar, and Aberdeen, of Roxburgh, Selkirk, Peebles, Linlithgow, Edinburgh, Haddington, Elgin and Nairn, stated that throughout all those districts he had been informed that during the last 10 years there had been agricultural depression, and that it was very severe in all districts with the exception possibly of a certain area in Mid and West Lothian. Mr. Hope, in his Report on Forfar, Aberdeen, and the other counties, said of the Poor Rate that the burden should not fall on lands and heritages only; it should rest on a fair basis, and should be distributed over all material wealth. Mr. Spiers said that when the bulk of the present burdens was imposed on land Protection was the order of the day, and, in his view, all wealth should be taxed alike. No one could read the evidence given in respect of the heavy burden which existed in the shape of rates on agricultural land without seeing that the farmers had a claim to consideration in this matter, and that the Government were right in making a response to it. The rents in Scotland since 1848 were about the same as now, notwithstanding the enormous expenditure which had taken place on farms. In 1879–80 agri-agricultural rents were estimated at £7,769,000; they had fallen to £6,000,000. But the rates were shown by Mr. Skelton, in his Report, to have increased from £463,000 in 1848 to £674,000 in 1893. It was said that there had been a fall in the Poor Rate during that period from 1s. 1d. in 1856 to 7½d. in 1893. But if hon. Members would look at the list of 15 agricultural counties, they would see that while the average Poor Rate fall in those counties had been 2¾d., agricultural land had during that period been heavily burdened by new rates, such as the Road Rate, the Education Rate, and the Public Health Rate. Therefore the aggregate burden on agricultural land had increased while rentals had fallen, and in consequence of lower prices agriculturists were far less able to meet the charges placed upon them than they were 40 or 50 years ago. The hon. Member for the Leith Burghs attended, along with a representative body of the Chamber of

  1441
  Agriculture, to interview Lord Balfour, the Secretary for Scotland. This deputation went to Lord Balfour representing upwards of 50 agricultural societies in Scotland, asking for a reconsideration of the burden of taxation of agricultural land in Scotland. In moving a vote of thanks to Lord Balfour, the hon. Member for Leith Burghs, whose factor had been one of the spokesmen during the discussion said that—
  "former Governments had neglected the just claims of agriculturists in this matter, but they looked forward with confidence to the present Government adjusting the incidence of local taxation."
  ["Hear, hear!" from Mr. MUNRO FERGUSON.] It was clear, therefore, that the hon. Member must have sympathised to a considerable extent with the objects which the deputation had in view.
  MR. MUNRO FERGUSON: The hon. Member has quoted my words on the subject, and by those words I stand. I stated that I was in favour of a readjustment of local taxation, and to that opinion I adhere just as much now as I did then.
  MR. RENSHAWsaid that on the 8th of July a meeting of the Scottish Chamber of Agriculture was held to consider the Rating Bill for Scotland, and they passed resolutions highly favourable to the Measure of the Government. Mr. Prentice, the factor of the hon. Member, expressed approval of the resolution, saying that he thought it had been made perfectly clear at the deputation to Lord Balfour that the farmers of Scotland wanted justice only, and pointing out that since the repeal of the Corn Laws they had been unjustly taxed; the present system of rating was unjust, and he thought the Bill of the Government was in the right direction. Other speakers joined in the same expression of opinion, and Mr. Spiers, a Sub-Commissioner, was present.
  MR. MUNRO FERGUSON: Is it seriously contended by the hon. Member that because Mr. Prentice, my factor, who happens to be a Conservative and a country neighbour of mine, represents certain views, that thereby I am held to entertain the same views?
  MR. RENSHAW: I do not suggest anything of the kind; I quote it as
  1442
  evidence of local opinion, and that this language was used at the deputation when the hon. Member was present. In the opinion of the skilled agriculturists, therefore, who had considered this matter, the opinion was prevalent that the Bill did not go far enough. A great deal had been said about the effect of the Bill. He was the owner and occupier of land in the neighbourhood of Greenock, and he was surprised to see, in the North British Daily Mail of Saturday last, the report of a long speech made by Sir Charles Cameron, and a long article founded upon it, supporting the arguments. He could not understand, as was alleged in that speech, how the rates could be raised, and he had been led accordingly to study the Bill carefully. Sir Charles Cameron alleged that the facts in connection with the Bill had only to be known in order to cause the Bill to be dropped—that agriculturists would not be much benefited by it, and that they would have to pay two or three times the rates they paid at present. Was this statement correct? Take a farm whose gross rental was £140, net rental £136 10s., assessed to the Poor, School and County Rates at £5 11s. 11d. Sir Charles Cameron said that the effect of sweeping away the classification at Greenock would be to necessitate an equal rate on all subjects in the parish of 1s. 2½d. in the pound. Taking this farm, and calculating it on three-eighths of the valuation, the effect would be to give rates on that farm of £4 8s. 1d. instead of £5 11s. 11d. The Bill would have an exceedingly beneficial effect upon the county rates, which were at present a very heavy burden upon the agricultural land, which were not affected by classification, and which amounted to a larger sum than the parish rates. Reference had been made to Paisley and Greenock, and as his works were situated in the parish of Paisley, he might say that under the old system of classification land was rated at one-fourth that of every other class, but the Parish Council had now adopted a highly-artificial classification which embraced six different classes, and by rating factories higher than dwelling-houses, tended to prevent the establishment of factories and the employment of

  1443
  workpeople. Whilst it was said that only 168 out of 882 parishes were classified, yet those 168 parishes included a population of 1,600,000 people. In Aberdeen only 10 parishes out of 83 were classified, but those 10 parishes covered a population of 147,000 out of 284,000; in Forfar, out of 53 parishes only 12 were classified, and embraced a population of 210,000 out of 277,000. He commended the benefit which the Bill would bring to those who, like himself, were interested in county administration, especially in reference to the Public Health Acts, and said that he strongly supported the Government because he believed it to be a Measure of justice which would certainly benefit the agricultural tenants, and he hoped the Government would soon see their way to introduce something which would go beyond the statutory classification which this Bill would give them, namely, a statutory system of deductions.
  SIR ROBERT REIDsaid it seemed to him most desirable in the interests of the opponents of the Bill that they should discard all these irrelevant matters. This Bill was simply the putting the hand into the pockets of the boroughs for the purpose of giving money to a small number of persons who lived in the counties. ["Hear, hear!"] He wished to say a few words with regard to his own constituency. The Land Tax had been capable in comparatively recent years of being redeemed, and each of the ancient burghs had had allocated to it since the year 1805 the particular quota which it had to pay towards the total of the Land Tax, and which it had been authorised by Act of Parliament to redeem. A great many of the burghs in Scotland did not possess in the highest degree foresight and thrift, but there was one burgh which in a particular degree possessed those qualities. That, he need hardly say, was the Burgh of Dumfries. They had been paying off for the last 20 years, or even less, for the sake of saving themselves from the future incidence of this tax, the whole of their quota, until in this year came the last payment that had to be made in order to redeem themselves from this burden. The money had gone into the pockets of the British Treasury, and had
  1444
  been applied by them in some reduction of the National Debt. And now, when Dumfries was hoping to reap the advantages of all their care and foresight, in came the Government and said they were going to pay off the whole of this Land Tax, "and you will derive no benefit from the £7,000 a year." He hoped before the Committee stage the Lord Advocate would reconsider his decision, and recognise the injustice of such a proposal as this. The Bill divided Scotland into two classes, those who were agricultural and those who were burghal. It proposed to give absolutely nothing except this paltry sum of £7,000 a year to the burghs and to give nearly £200,000 a year to the counties. The next thing the Bill did was to divide the counties into two portions, namely, the agricultural part of the community which was to receive benefits, and the agricultural part of the community which was not. He considered the burghs were quite as deserving as the counties, and he thought that part of the agricultural community which was not to receive the benefit of the Bill—such as the labourer and the struggling shopkeeper or artisan—was far more meritorious in every point of view than those who were to receive its benefits. It was the farmer, and the farmer alone, living in a county area, who would get the benefit of this £200,000 a year. One other change was effected by the Bill. It interfered with one of the most democratic and just principles that could be conceived, and that was the principle which related to the classification of rating. The ancient Scotch law was that persons should be rated in proportion to their income and ability to pay. That principle had never been departed from altogether. There was no set of men more desirous of doing what was fair between different classes who were rated than the burghal authorities in Scotland. They had cast agricultural subjects at one-quarter of the rates; shops and factories at one-half; and general houses, in which they themselves lived, at the full rate. This Bill suspended the whole of this classification, and prevented any other for a period of five years. What would be the effect of the Bill in the case of burghs where classification was adopted? Shopkeepers

  1445
  and owners of factories would not pay a proportion of rate as heretofore, but they would pay the full rate. What had that got to do with agricultural rating? It was one of the exigencies and corollaries of the method in which the Government had brought forward the Bill that they must abolish classification. Classification existed in 21 out of 31 burghs of over 10,000 population, and in all these the whole thing was swept away.
  *THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid that, while the Bill in one sense abolished classification, in another sense it introduced a compulsory classification all over the country.
  SIR R. REID: I was dealing with it in burghs.
  *THE LORD ADVOCATE: It includes burghs.
  SIR R. REIDsaid that the Bill did not abolish classification so far merely as it affected agricultural subjects, but abolished it all over Scotland. Why should classification be abolished so far as the shopkeepers were concerned? These people got absolutely no benefit whatever in return for the abolition of classification, receiving no portion of the £200,000 which was to be allocated to agriculture. The result in parishes and counties was a little more complicated. Where, at the present time, there was a classification which rated agricultural subjects at one-quarter only of the rate, this Bill said they should henceforth pay three-eighths. He wondered whether they would like the improvement in their position which would be the result? On the general subject, he wished to say they were giving money which belonged to all to a very limited class of the population. Practically they were giving it to the farmers and to nobody else, although indirectly, and sooner or later, they were giving it to the landlords. They further reduced the proportion in which the farming class paid the rates, and threw additional burdens on all other classes of ratepayers in the county. The law of rating in Scotland, he admitted, required redress, and if the Government proposed a Measure for effecting this purpose he should be glad to support it, for there was ground for a careful inquiry into the incidence of local taxation in Scotland. It was not to be dealt with lightly.
  1446
  While agricultural tenants and occupiers might pay more in some cases than their proportion, it must be remembered that they have been in the habit of paying at least that proportion for 100 years. It must also be remembered that there were other classes than agricultural tenants who paid a great deal more than they ought to do, and that there were also persons owning land who paid a great deal less than they ought to do. He admitted that the system of local taxation required adjustment. The question was—in what direction? In his opinion it ought to be more apportioned to the ability of the person who had to pay. That might sound to English Members, accustomed to English principles of rating, a somewhat broad proposition, but it was the ancient Scotch practice which had never been departed from. He should like to see a graduated rate, and that he believed would come, for Scotland. The difficulty had been to find out the ability of the person, and so localise it as to be able to make him liable. But what was this Bill? It took £200,000; it did not distribute it to any persons according to their ability to pay, but to the just and the unjust, the rich and the poor, to everybody who was a tenant-farmer paying rates. A large proportion would go to people who were as well able to pay their rates as he and other Members of Parliament were. The Bill was a step in the wrong direction. It would suspend classification and the possibility of rating reform for five years. It was a crude and partial step in the interests merely of some, and mostly in relief of those who needed it least at the expense of some who needed it most. What fairness was there in giving in relief of rates in county areas and not in borough areas? The rates were increasing more in the boroughs than in the counties, and while he admitted that agriculture was not as prosperous as it might be in Scotland, they could not say that that meant distress. If they were to deal with it from that point of view, no one could say that in the burghs and in the counties there were not many classes besides agricultural tenants who were far more deserving of consideration than the farmers. Were there not many suffering from want of employment; was there not infinite mischief done

  1447
  from overcrowding and from scanty wages? Yet only the farmers were to be relieved—the very men whose thrift and care caused people to drain in to the burghs from the counties. He knew the extreme destitution and want that existed in Scotland of which the people never spoke. The poor people in Scotland were too proud to complain of it, but they would not tolerate injustice, and there would be a strong feeling of injustice when they saw how this money was divided even among the agricultural population, for it was to go to those who least required it. He did not deny that there were farmers who suffered a good deal, and who had seen their capital largely reduced. He wanted to see them relieved, but relieved in a way which would take from them their real burdens. It was no use giving them a small percentage from the rates. He believed the true solution was that given by Mr. Spier, who said:—
  "Everybody is of opinion that nothing can rid agriculture of the millstone which hangs about its neck so much as a readjustment of rents in accordance with present prices."
  Let full compensation be given for everything the tenant adds to the letting value of land, and then, if you are strong and bold enough, take the railway companies by the shoulders and insist that they shall give fair rates to the farmers for the carriage of produce. If Parliament, instead of spending its time—with some heat which he thought would be reflected in the constituencies—in considering what they should do with the £200,000, and how they should allocate it to a particular class whom the outside world would say were their political favourites, would make the position safe for farmers in regard to the fruits of their labour, and see that they had an opportunity by fair rates and rents to make a living for themselves, he had no doubt they would be able to cope with the competition of the whole world. [Cheers.]
  MR. T. H. COCHRANEsaid the hon. Gentleman the Members for Dumfries Burghs was entirely wrong in thinking that the Bill was intended for the relief of agricultural distress. It was a small instalment of the justice to agriculture. Everyone admitted that agriculture was distressed; but that distressed industry was also
  1448
  suffering from a certain injustice in regard to local rating, and this Bill was primarily an attempt to remove that injustice, though at the same time it would probably do something towards relieving the distress. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Stirling Burghs declared that the Bill would meet with the most stubborn and protracted opposition amongst his Friends. Those words bore a family resemblance to "wilful and persistent obstruction," for which the Standing Orders provided penalties. [Laughter.] But why had not the right hon. Gentleman taken the bold step of moving the rejection of the Bill? The reason was obvious. It was because the right hon. Gentleman knew that throughout Scotland the Bill was appreciated by very large classes of the community. [Cheers.] The Bill would relieve an absolute injustice to agriculture in such a way as would not impose a hardship on any other class, but which would, on the contrary, benefit every class of the community. Take the class of parishes where there was classification of rates. In those parishes the ratepayers would have returned to them from the Imperial Treasury the addition to the rates which they had to pay in consequence of agricultural land being rated on a lower classification. Then take the parishes where there was no classification at all. Did the opponents of the Bill mean to say that the crofter in those parishes would not be delighted to get £1 10s. out of his rates, and would not be enchanted if he had £2 10s. returned to him? He therefore hoped that the stubborn opposition to the Bill which had been foreshadowed would not be persisted in.
  MR. JAMES BRYCEsaid the aspect of the House, as frequently happened during Scotch Debates, was not very encouraging to those who believed that arguments should tell in a Measure of this importance. The few Members present were Scotch Members, but when the Division was called a large number of English Members who had not heard the Debate, who, even if they had been present, would not have heeded it—would come in and overbear the opinion of Scotland. With reference to the opposition to the Bill, he would remind his hon. Friend who had just sat

  1449
  down that there were two kinds of opposition. There was the opposition by argument, even in the teeth of a large majority, which was sometimes successful—[Opposition cheers]—and there was also the opposition which was aroused in the country. The opposition which they expected to bring to bear upon this Measure was the opposition which they would raise in the country, and they felt bound in fairness to lay their arguments before the supporters of the Bill in order that they might know what they intended to repeat in the country. This Bill was an illustration of many Bills that had been introduced for Scotland; but a Bill had been introduced for England, and as a parallel to it something of the same kind must be done for Scotland. If there had been no Rating Bill for England they should never have seen this Bill at all. ["Hear, hear!"] The two Bills were supported by arguments which could be applied with more plausibility in the case of England than in the case of Scotland. The supporters of the English Bill tried to ride two horses, or rather to exchange one horse for another according to the exigencies of the moment. The Bill was represented at one minute as an attempt to relieve agricultural distress, and at another time as an attempt to reform the general system of local taxation. The hon. Member for Ayrshire supported the Bill on both grounds.
  MR. COCHRANEsaid his contention was that the Bill was a measure of justice towards the ratepayers, and that at the same time it would incidentally assist in relieving agriculture.
  MR. BRYCEsad the hon. Gentleman also spoke of the Bill as a small instalment of justice. That showed that the hon. Gentleman had in view a larger measure of reform for the relief of the injustices to ratepayers.
  MR. COCHRANEsaid his hope was that some day the incidence of Imperial burdens in Scotland would be inquired into, and that some of the sums which Scotland now unfairly paid would be returned to her.
  MR. BRYCEwas glad of that admission that Scotland was not fairly treated in the matter of Imperial taxation. But let them look at the Bill in respect to those two questions—the relief of agricultural distress and the remedy of the injustices of local taxation. The Lord
  1450
  Advocate had said he looked upon the latter as the more important of the two. As to agricultural distress, everyone knew that farmers were suffering all over the country; but the distress had been very unequal. Travelling from the East to the West of England, it would be found that the fall in rents diminished the further west one went; and it was the same in the north as compared with the south. There was no case in Scotland like that of Lincolnshire and Essex. In some parts of Scotland there was still a great competition for farms, notably in Aberdeenshire. The farmers there were doing fairly well and they would be far more vexed with the Cattle Diseases Bill than they would be gratified by this Bill. Scotch farmers had not suffered so much because they had put more brains into the land; and their labourers worked with greater capacity. It was far more in the direction of improving the intelligence of farmers and labourers that a remedy must be sought than in doles of this kind, which would do no permanent good. As to local taxation, he did not assert that our system was perfect. But the Bill did not propose a thorough inquiry into the question; it only applied the crudest of all remedies—drawing a distinction between classes. The Government were applying their remedy first, and making their inquiry afterwards, which was the spirit of "Jeddart justice." If the Bill were worth anything it ought to be based on an examination of the facts; but the Government were launching out into a most complicated problem, without attempting to ascertain the principles on which it should be solved. Then the relief to be given was only temporary, and any reform of local taxation ought to be permanent. The Bill would only increase the confusion and difficulty of local authorities. Many people would receive relief who did not want it. Much would go to the landlords and much to the occupiers who were not in distress, such as market gardeners near large towns. It had been said that, if the Scotch farmers did not need relief, there was no need to pass the Bill. But it did not follow that the equivalent grant to Scotland should be devoted to the same purposes as in England. The right course would have been to carry this money to the Scotch account, and

  1451
  determine, after consulting Scotch opinion, in what way it could he most usefully applied. If money were to be given to towns it would be better to give it to great public improvements, and if to counties the relief of rates was not the best object. If it were expended on education it would be well spent. The relief to agriculture was so trivial that it would be useless where real distress existed. He had a graver objection to the Bill—it was a part of that principle of subventions from the Imperial Exchequer to local taxation which was fraught with great danger to the community. That principle promoted waste and extravagance. If the local taxpayer learned to look to the central Treasury as a fund on which he could draw, the motives to local economy would disappear. Moreover, a door was opened to much more dangerous enterprises than the present. In discussing the Home Rule Bill, one of the most horrible possibilities suggested in connection with a reckless local Legislature was an Imperial Poor Rate. Pro tanto that was done by this Bill and the English Bill. No small part of the Poor Rate would in future be defrayed out of the Imperial Treasury. Class legislation, also, was capable of a much more dangerous application; and, in future, other and larger classes might quote this Measure as a precedent for particular relief. It was a new thing for Parliament to be called on to relieve a temporary distress. The French Treaty concluded by Mr. Gladstone in 1860 brought considerable distress on our working classes and employers. He remembered for instance, that in Coventry there were distress and want of employment, which was the direct result of the action of the Government. That, therefore, was a case in which it might have been expected that some relief would be given, but no relief was given, and any claim of the kind was generally scouted. It was said the people must take their chance in this way; and if they were now to enter into this new policy of relieving an interest as bad times came, he could fancy many cases in future in which a dangerous use would be made of the precedent laid down. A great many of the worst precedents were made in small cases, where it was thought the insignificance of the instance was sufficient to sanction a
  1452
  dereliction of principle, and he believed the Conservative Party was quite as likely, if not more likely, to go wrong in that way than the Liberal Party. What would have been said of the Liberal Party if it had proposed to relieve any class at the expense of the general taxpayers. He looked with very great disquiet and anxiety at the course which was now being embarked upon. All he had been able to hear from Scotland led him to believe that this Bill was not regarded with any general favour, even in agricultural districts. If the Opposition wished to lower the credit of the Government in Scotland, and to damage them for the future, they could desire nothing better than that they should have brought in this Bill. To this Bill or any other Bill which aimed in the same way at sacrificing the general interests of the community for those of a particular class, or which extended the dangerous principle here laid down, he would continue to offer a constant and an earnest opposition.
  *MR WALTER THORBURNsupported the Bill just because of the strong feeling existing in his constituency in favour of it. It was a small measure of justice too tardily offered. For years he had advocated a readjustment of taxes upon farms, because they were paying entirely out of proportion to any other class. Few of the right hon. Gentlemen who occupied the Front Opposition Bench knew from personal experience the actual state of agriculture in Scotland. He could not only speak with knowledge, but from painful experience. Whilst very much connected with industrial pursuits, he also held a farm which was tenanted by two noble Lords, brothers of the present Prime Minister. When they entered that farm the rent was £1,300 a year; when he took it the rent was £770. During seven years' tenancy only once had he a balance on the right side, and that was simply to the extent of £45, after charging his capital with interest. Every other year he had suffered largely, and, in fact, even if he had been farming at a small rent, he could not possibly have made ends meet. The cultivation of the land in the higher districts of Scotland had become a ruinous occupation, and only districts where agriculture could be carried on

  1453
  with any show of success was in the neighbourhood of large towns. He believed 90 per cent. of the farmers were not making any income, and, on the other hand, there was a steady process of exhaustion of capital. He knew a great many farmers, once well off, with investments outside their farms, who were now practically cleared out. It was said that rents ought to be reduced, but at all events, in his county, they had been greatly reduced. He knew many cases where the reductions of rents ranged from 30 to 50 per cent., and notwithstanding all that, farmers could not make ends meet. Hon. Members opposite were doing their best to convince urban ratepayers that their rates were to be increased in consequence of this Bill. But the assertions of hon. Gentlemen were purely imaginary, their object being rather to extract some political capital out of the Measure by appealing to the urban vote. By the practical compulsory classification under this Bill, two-thirds of the burghs in Scotland with a population above 10,000 would pay less than at present. The principle of the Bill had been embodied under the Poor Law Act of 1845. One hundred and fifty-eight parishes adopted the classification, and in those parishes the agricultural occupier would suffer slightly under this Bill; but in 750 other parishes they would get relief. There were two classes of opponents to the Bill—first, the Radical politician who misrepresented the Bill for purely Party purposes; and secondly the Radical urban ratepayers who wished that as much taxation as possible should be put on the land and as little as possible on his property. Farmers felt that this Bill was a welcome relief to them, and the farm servants knew that every pound which the farmers could save helped to furnish means to employ labour. In several of the southern counties in Scotland, farm labour was diminishing and agricultural labourers were being dismissed, with the consequent result that the rural population was being driven into the towns more and more. He believed, therefore, that the more this Bill was thoroughly understood by the people of Scotland, embracing both the agricultural and the urban interests, the more they would consider it a Measure of genuine justice to the agricultural
  1454
  interest, which ought, indeed, to have been granted long ago.
  *MR. JOHN WILSONsaid that the hon. Baronet the Member for Kirkcudbrightshire had referred to the times when farmers were well off and had good balances at their bankers, but now times were changed, and asked who was to blame for this? No doubt the price of agricultural produce had gone down, but the landlords had not cut down their rents, with the result that farmers had either to quit their farms or remain where they were with the certain prospect of losing all their capital. He knew a farmer who was once well to do. He took a farm during the reduction of prices, and he lost capital so much that bankruptcy stared him in the face The farmer appealed to his landlord for redress; he showed the landlord his books; and being a man of great industry, thrift, and independence of character, he felt degraded that he should be required to go to his landlord and ask for a favour year after year. The result was that in the end the landlord, at the request of the farmer, was obliged to allow him to leave the farm. The man took another large farm subsequently, in connection with which the previous tenant had been ruined, and he got this farm at the reduced rent of 30 per cent. The farmer was now doing well and was fairly comfortable. This Bill, however, was at variance with the characteristics of Scottish character and of those engaged in fanning in Scotland. The farming class in Scotland could have little pleasure or satisfaction in taking relief when they knew that it was coming to them at the expense of those who were the consumers of agricultural produce. He believed that there would be a considerable reaction among the working classes in Scotland when the nature of this Bill was thoroughly understood. Where would the farmers and the landlords be without the industrial classes? No doubt there was some agricultural distress in Scotland, but it was not acute. The farmers and the landlords were a great deal better off than the inhabitants of the towns. He represented an industrial county, in which there was a police burgh with 70,000 inhabitants. Not a farthing under this Bill was to go to the toilers in this community. The landlords around large towns were reaping

  1455
  enormous harvests from the extension of industrial communities, and they were keeping up the price of agricultural land in the neighbourhood until the people were forced to build upon it. The Bill was unfair and unjust. If the money provided under it were to be allocated according to population, instead of his constituents getting nothing, they would receive £3,500 per annum. Did the Government think that the working classes were likely to tamely submit to this one-sided legislation? If they did they would find to their cost that such a Measure as this would be bitterly resented. It was chiefly the landlords who would be benefited by this Bill, of whom a Member of the present Cabinet once said, "They toil not, neither do they spin." The landlords had much less right to this money than the needy artisans of the towns. He had presented a petition to the House from the Parish Council representing the parishes of Govan, in which there were 280,000 souls. That petition declared that the principle of giving grants from the Exchequer to the local authorities was not a good one, that it was unjust that public funds should be applied exclusively to the benefit of one class of ratepayers, and that as the greater part of the agricultural land in Govan had a market value far beyond its agricultural value, and was being held for an appreciation, it should not be dealt with as proposed in this Bill. The Govan Commissioners, at a meeting held on the previous night, had also agreed unanimously to petition against the Bill. He did not understand how the Government could think that this Bill was going to be quietly put through, and that no protest would be made against it by the representatives of the people of Scotland. Whore was this pernicious system of subventions to end? Was every other industry that was supposed to be distressed to go to the Treasury for money? There were at the present moment in Scotland other industries besides the landed and farming interest that were languishing and in great straits; but they got no sympathy or charitable contributions from the Government. If the Government really desired to help the landed interest and the farmers, he counselled them to withdraw this Bill, and to substitute for it a Land Bill, for the purpose of giving
  1456
  the farmers fair rents. That was what they wanted, and if such a Bill were passed they would hear no more about agricultural distress in Scotland. For his part he should follow the right hon. Gentleman who had moved the Amendment into the Lobby.
  *MR. T. SHAWsaid that it would appear that either the Government viewed this Bill as unimportant in principle and trivial in substance, or that they thought they could at any time angle with every prospect of success for support in Scotland with a silver hook. But the Scotch Members did not consider this Measure to be unimportant in principle or trivial in substance, and they were determined not to have either the Scotch people as a whole or the farming class debauched by subventions such as that proposed to be given under this Bill. The standard of political thinking in Scotland was such that if the Scotch constituencies were polled, they would emphatically reject this Measure; and the standard of political principle in Scotland was, he believed, high enough to lead the people, both in town and country, to repudiate this offer scornfully. Either this Bill was intended as a Measure to mitigate agricultural distress, or it was a Measure for reforming the law of rating. As a Measure for the relief of agricultural distress, it was an utter sham; as a Bill for the reform of local rating, it was a gigantic fraud. The main grievance of farmers in Scotland, as was proved before the Agricultural Commission, was the inadequacy of the Agricultural Holdings Act. Scotch farmers were determined to have before long a legal right to just and equitable compensation for their improvements. That most important question was not touched by this Bill, nor the equally important question of just rents. It was probably too much to hope that the present Government would pass any Measure which would take anything from the landlords and put it into the pockets of the tenants. Year by year, and season by season, there continued in Scotland a process of confiscation of tenants' goods in favour of the landlord. It was a process to which they wished to see an end put, but this main grievance of the Scotch tenants was left without remedy by the Government. Next he would ask why when people held farms under contracts

  1457
  which they had entered into with full knowledge of the amount of the rates, the State should intervene to relieve them pro tanto of a hard bargain. The hon. Member for Peeblesshire had told them that he had held a farm for seven years, and that it had not paid, and after demonstrating that he had made a bad bargain, he said that he cordially approved of this Bill, which would pro tanto relieve him out of the British Exchequer in respect of his rates. Anything more opposed to sound economic principle he had never heard uttered on the floor of the House of Commons. It might be asked why the farmer did not put the good year against the bad year, as was done in other industries. Mr. Rutherford, whose evidence appeared in Mr. Hope's Report, gave some very blunt testimony on this point. He was asked, "What became of all the money made by the tenants in the good times?" and he replied, "it was all put into the land and the landlords got it by increasing the rent." Compensation for improvements and just rents were the things that the farmers wanted; they would be substantial benefits, but they were not found in this Measure. In those directions the Government would not lift a finger to help the industry of agriculture in Scotland. This Measure was not even accepted by those concerned in agriculture as a Measure of relief. If ever a Measure was damned with faint praise it was this Bill. The Secretary of the Scotch Chamber of Agriculture—a body to which the Bill might be supposed to be specially acceptable, had said:—
  "It was too ridiculous for any one to affirm that the relief proposed to be given to agriculture was in any way connected with agricultural depression."
  He would adopt that language. It was too ridiculous to imagine that this was a relief at all. ["Hear, hear!"] Sooner or later—in England sooner, in Scotland later, but only a little later—this remission of rate would be conveyed into the pocket of the landlord. What was taken off in rates would be laid on in rents, and until rents were compulsorily and impartially determined it must be so. It was argued that, at all events, the position of the crofters was secure, and that they had fixity of tenure. He totally denied the proposition. They had fixity of tenure no
  1458
  doubt, but they had not fixity of rent. Every seven years it was open to the landlord to have the rent determined by the Crofter Commission, and the Commission was by statute bound to take into account the whole circumstances of the case. Did they think that the Commission would shut, their eyes to a cardinal fact in the new circumstances—namely, the relief pro tanto of the rates paid by the crofter tenant? In order to test the sincerity of the Government he would make them this offer—would they accept an Amendment to this Bill in the shape of a clause forbidding the Crofter Commission to take into account in the landlord's favour and against the tenant, at the next readjustment of rent, this remission of taxation? If the Government declined that fair offer they would be convicted of wilfully attempting to delude the entire tenantry of Scotland. They had in this Debate heard but few and feeble echoes of the taunt, "why if this is so bad a Measure, will the agricultural tenants accept it." He was not surprised that but few hon. Members who were offering this temptation to the tenantry sneered at them for accepting the offer. What was wanted in Scotland was less rent on the land in view of the decreased prices, and a just and not a delusive compensation for improvements. These were due from the landlord, but the Government stepped in with their handful of the nation's money and asked them not to press the landlord. They preferred to pauperise the tenantry rather than to make them independent.
  "The strongest castle, tower, or town,
  The golden bullet beats it down."
  That was the policy of Her Majesty's Government. But they might depend upon it that, as their delusive favours slipped through the hands of the tenantry of Scotland, their vision would become clearer as to where the real remedy lay. The Government had raised the land question in all its bearings [cheers], and that, he frankly confessed, was his only consolation in regard to this Bill. As this sham Measure was exposed the people of Scotland would recognise the necessity for more radical proposals—proposals which were recommended by just principle, by the reports of commissions, and by universal experience. As to the statement that this Bill was one to change the

  1459
  incident of local rating, he denied it flatly. What they did was to make a hotch-pot of the subject of rating by importing Imperial funds into local finance in such a way as to commit a fraud on the general body of the people. ["Hear, hear!"] The subject of classification was not a difficult one—it was a variation of local rating. This Bill abolished classification altogether and enacted uniformity, but did it in such a way as to make the body of the people relieve a particular class. What had been the past history of this matter? For 50 years the parishes of Scotland were able to adopt classification if they thought it to be "just and equitable," but the Scotch parishes, by a majority of five to one, declared that it was unacceptable to the general body of the Scotch people. The theory of classification was that the locality knew best how to adjust its own burdens among the parishioners inter se. It made the closest approximation to an assessment upon means and substance The Lord Advocate in his speech on the Second Beading said that the Bill was an attempt to make personalty bear some equivalent share with realty of the local burdens, but in the next sentence he seemed to speak with scorn of a certain parish which had put an extra assessment on sporting rents. Why should not it do so? Sporting rents were the luxury of people of enormous means and substance, and why should they not pay a heavier rate for the benefit of the local parishioners? He would ask the House to assume that this Bill was founded on the principle of classification, but where had they found any classification in Scotland which would justify this Measure? Only one in five parishes had seen any justice or equity in classification at all; only one in 11 parishes had been divided into two classes; in only one in 18 had land been put in one class and everything else in another; and there was only one parish in Scotland which had adopted the principle of this Bill, namely, assessing the agricultural rents at three-eighths of the valuation. That parish ought to be mentioned—it was the parish of Forgan in Fife, with only 1,200 inhabitants. Happy Forgan!—home of political and financial wisdom for distressed Statesmen! The Government's finance was on the principle of "lightly come,
  1460
  lightly go," and being at a dead loss for a precedent for this expenditure, they had in their despair found rest in Forgan. What a confusion, also, the Bill was going to introduce into the classified parishes. It roughly came to this: that in the local finance of 120 parishes chaos would be produced, and that in a great number of these the agricultural tenants would be the worst lowers by the transaction. It really was not classification, it was class subvention. In his Report as an Agricultural Commissioner, Mr. John Clay had stated:—
  "I do not consider that true relief can be assured for agricultural distress by resorting to a system which relieves one class of ratepayers at the national expense."
  The ordinary toiler had to contribute to the fund which it was now proposed to divert from its proper object to the relief of the rates of a class. Under this Bill the poor man in Scotland would be far worse off than the poor man in England, because while in the latter case the poor man would see only 64 per cent. of the relief pass his door to go into that of the rich man, in the former case the poor man would see 86 per cent. of the money pass his door to go into the pockets of the rich. The humble rural ratepayer in Scotland would only obtain 14 per cent. of the dole, the toilers in the Scotch towns would obtain nothing. People, however, were coming to understand the meaning of this Bill, which would have the effect of putting £7,000 out of every £10,000 of the relief into the rich man's pocket. The principle of classification was that the strong in a parish should help the weak, but the principle of this Bill was that the weak should bear the burden of the strong. ["Hear, hear!"] The result was that in Scotland the nation as a whole was on one side and the landed interest alone upon the other. Had the Government chosen to leave this question alone it would have slept as long as they remained in office, which apparently was a shortening period. ["Hear, hear!" and laughter.] What would happen in any of the Scotch counties when some extravagant expenditure was proposed? Why, the thrifty villages who paid the whole of their rates would oppose it, while it would

  1461
  be supported by the rural ratepayers who only paid 7s. 6d. in the pound of their rates. ["Hear, hear!"] To employ public funds in the relief of local taxation would be to encourage waste and extravagance. The Government did not appear to have any idea as to what they intended to do for the congested districts in Scotland. The attempt that had once been made to relieve those districts by sending the inhabitants of them abroad, had resulted in the most pitiable failure. The right hon. Gentleman desired to earmark a portion of this money. Let the Government consent to earmark the whole of it. To-day Scotland desired to pause and consider its position. It had done so before, with conspicuously successful results. Possibly all classes might be united on this subject if it were agreed to apply this money to the purposes of education. ["Hear, hear!"] He believed that in their hearts many hon. Members were with him when he made that proposal. The foundations of Scotch education were already laid broadband deep, and sure, and he thought that all Scotchmen would rejoice to see secondary and university education in the country also made free—thrown open to every capable son and daughter of Scotland by means of the money of the nation at large. His advice to the Government was that they should profit by past experience on this question, and that they should take counsel of Scotland with her broad and enlightened views rather than of England with her sectional demands. ["Hear, hear!"] If they took that advice they would do honour to their administration, this Bill with its pitiful errors would be quickly forgotten, and Scotland would remain the abiding debtor of this Imperial Parliament.
  MR. J. E. GORDONsaid he had noticed that a great deal of the opposition to this Pill arose from those who represented burgh constituencies. As he had the honour to represent two counties, and was rather favourably situated from the fact that he was neither a landlord nor a tenant, he asked the House to allow him to make a few remarks. Until the hon. and learned Gentleman who last spoke rose,
  1462
  the Debate had been carried on with considerable good humour on both sides and it took a considerable amount of courage to rise as a Member of a degraded Party, who was seeking to debauch the farmers and commit fraud all round. [Laughter.] He had heard the hon. Member's remarks almost equally strong in another place when his mouth was closed, and on that occasion he found that there was no foundation for the statements. On the present occasion he would ask the hon. and learned Gentleman to confer with the hon. Baronet who represented Banffshire, and who promised his support to the Bill when the Second Reading came on. He (Mr. Gordon) would put the support of the hon. Baronet against all the heated speeches made against this Bill. He himself telegraphed that afternoon asking how many of his constituents, in one of the counties he represented, would receive benefit by this Bill, and the answer was given to him—2,250. That was a pretty good number in one small county. It seemed to him that there had been much ado about very little in this matter. As a practical man he knew that this was not any relief to distressed agriculture. Relief to distressed agriculture could not be be effected by that House. It required better seasons, and higher prices, but the primary function of that House had always been to apply relief to those industries which required it. Let him remind the House that only a few years ago Members on the other side voted the Death Duties, the effect of which in his constituency was that on the death of certain individuals a large sum in cash would be removed therefrom. Under the provisions of this Bill a large amount of Imperial money would be left in his country. The farmers and the crofters and the other members of the agricultural population valued that, and he had never heard of any Scotch community that did not value the cash down. [Laughter.] He regretted that a great deal of the opposition to this Bill had been the suggestion of partial interests in the community—town against country and class against class. That was not statesmanship, and when it was brought down to the domestic circle it was called

  1463
  pure mischief making. He was in close touch with several burgh constituencies, and he had never heard a word from them objecting to this Bill. That was because the people in those burghs were sensible, and they lived on the prosperity of agriculture. No one regretted more than he did that the relief of local taxation to the farming interest and the cottagers would, under this Bill, be small. But what would the farmer do? The first thing he would do would be to go into the county town and spend the money in the county shop. This money arose from the fact that the Government had a large surplus to distribute; and he reminded the House that five millions of that surplus had been expended for the purpose of the Navy in town communities. The agricultural population in this country was suffering from the competition with foreign producers, who paid no share of the rates and taxes of this country. Until they relieved the home farmer of those local rates they were really penalising the home producer; and he therefore hailed this Measure as a step in the right direction. He did not agree with the argument that this money was coming from the poor man. While a large amount of the taxation of the country was raised from its cumulative wealth, another large portion was raised from the enormous prosperous industries of the country. He maintained that the surplus at the disposal of the Government was most distinctly obtained from the Death Duties, and also from the marvellous increase of prosperity in our financial and commercial operations last year. Therefore, payment was coming out of the capitalist class; and the capitalist class had not raised a word of protest. If anyone should complain, it ought to be the Income Tax payer, especially the smaller Income Tax payer. He thought it was a great pity that the Radical Party were so inclined to attack land. The landlord was held up as a sort of bogey; but, so far as he knew him, the landlord carried out his duties to the community with quite as much propriety as many members of other professions. He did not like to hear a member of a learned profession—a profession received in that House with unusual kindliness and dignity—talk of those who were interested in land, whether as hirers or
  1464
  owners, in the manner which they had just heard. The result of all that was very disastrous to a country community such as the one he represented, in this way: In all industries, whether it was coal mining, or cotton spinning, or land, the capital employed was always being eaten out and destroyed, and it was essential to the prosperity of land as well as other industries that further capital should be induced to come in and replace the old. They knew that when they talked of a landlord now-a-days it was a misnomer. The real landlords were largely bondholders. Thousands of middle class people who had insured their lives for moderate sums, and the real difficulty in remitting the rent of the farming class—which, of course, was the source from which the temporary user of land must recoup his position—was that the landowner was merely a steward, and that if they pushed him much farther they would find him approaching a condition of bankruptcy. If they had not so many political cries, there was lots of capital which would be glad to employ itself at an unusually low rate of interest, but that sort of replenishment for the country districts was closed in the, meantime. Inequality with regard to financial arrangements was not unusual. It was only a year or two ago that a most important constitutional Measure was introduced which would have landed us in this position—that on one of the islands we should have been paying 35s. a head of taxation, whereas on the other island it would only have been 7s. 6d. per head. As long as this world was carried on in its present rough form there must always be inequality. He urged the House to pay no attention to the red herrings that had been dragged across the path of the Debate. The Government sought by a very plain simple Measure to put the rating of land in a more favourable position. The hon. Member for Dundee explained his position with regard to mill owning. How would he like it if the Government came down and proposed to tax the raw cotton, or wool, or jute, brought into Dundee just as the raw material of the farmer was now taxed. In conclusion, the hon. Member said he was sure the House would pardon him for having intervened, but he could not but speak up

  1465
  for his two little counties, which contained a large number of people who would be thankful for this relief.
  *MR. AUGUSTINE BIRRELLsaid that, unlike the last speaker, he had foreborne to ascertain how many of his constituents would benefit by this Bill. He approached the consideration of the Bill from no such sordid standpoint. The hon. Member had, with great candour, as had other hon. Members, frankly admitted that this Bill was no panacea, and was indeed no measure of relief for agricultural distress. He thought, therefore, that his hon. Friend the Member for Peebles might have fore-borne making the House more melancholy, by telling them how great the agricultural distress in Scotland was and how lamentable his own experience had been. The hon. Member had with great candour admitted that the Bill was not a panacea or, indeed, any measure of relief, for agricultural distress. The microscopic relief afforded to the occupier under the Bill would in no way resuscitate agriculture or meet the constant complaint of the farmer with regard to low prices. The farmer could only be benefited in two ways—either by paying less rent, or getting higher prices for his produce. ["Hear, hear!"] There was nothing in the Bill either to lower rents or heighten prices, and, therefore, agricultural distress, if it existed, must continue. The difficulty in approaching the question was that, although the motif of the Bill was said to be the inequality which existed in the incidence of taxation, the Bill did not even profess to cure it. All the Bill did was to assert, without proving it, that the present system was unfair, and then proceed to give a dole in order to induce people to allow that unfair state of things to continue a little longer. It was as if one man were to say to another: "If justice were done I should owe you £10; but as justice is not to be done here is 6d." [Laughter.] He was not prepared to agree that the present system of local taxation in Scotland was unjust. All sorts of mythical persons had been invented. They had heard of the man of boundless wealth living in a remote agricultural district in a mean house, sometimes it was even hinted in lodgings, and who did not contribute as he ought to do to the local burdens of the community. He did not believe in
  1466
  these mute, inglorious millionaires. [Laughter.] He could not believe that any man who, ex hypothesi, might live a voluptuous life in a villa on the Medriterranean would live in lodgings in the Stewartry [laughter]; and he would remark that if once they began rating this individual in this way he would pack up his nightshirt and toothbrush and go away, for the only object one could have for lodging in the Stewartry was to effect economy. These persons to whom allusion had been made were persons not of boundless wealth, but of small means. Why should a man pay for roads when he had no carts to cut them up, or for educating the children of farm labourers whom he did not employ; or, under the Poor Laws, for men worn out in the service of other people than himself? There was something to be said for taking the rent of a man's house as some measure of his interest in a particular community. His own belief was that the Scotch system of local rating, which divided the burden equally between owner and occupier, and which allowed for classification, was as rational a system as it was possible to find. It was the system recommended for England by the Duke of Richmond's Commission. Speaking for a constituency where there was a great deal of classification, he regretted that the system was to be abolished. This Bill was the consequence of the English Bill, and was not the result of any genuine demand on the part of the people of Scotland. [Cheers.] The Scotch people would take a £5 note when it was offered them. [Laughter.] The hon. Member opposite who laughed would take 5s. if it was offered to him; but it was another thing to demand that the money should be offered to them, This was a lamentable example of England dragging Scotland in its wake. Scotland took the money because it was Scotch money, but it was not an unreasonable demand that it should be earmarked until the Scotch people decided how it was to be spent. He was certain, if they had time and opportunity to discuss it, the Scotch people would be able to devise some better way of disposing of the money than that suggested in the Bill.
  *SIR J. STIRLING MAXWELLsaid he had the honour to represent a part of Glasgow,

  1467
  and his constituents were not, as a rule, backward in expressing their opinions. So far he had received no notice whatever of any hostile feelings on their part towards this Bill. ["Hear, hear!"] It had been known for some time that this Bill would come on, and in his opinion it was an honest attempt to meet the difficulty. He welcomed it heartily, and believed it was only denounced by those who knew little or nothing about agriculture.
  MR. J. CALDWELLsaid the case of Scotland was different from that of England. In England the owner paid no rates; the whole local rates in England were borne by the occupier. The object of the English Bill was to relieve distressed agriculture from what was alleged to be an unfair proportion of local rates borne by agriculture. The agricultural tenant in England, before these Bills were introduced, paid the whole rate applicable to his land. The Treasury had now stepped in and removed the alleged injustice by paying one-half of the tenant's rates. In Scotland there was no such injustice existing with regard to the rate as existed in the case of England, because in Scotland there was no agricultural tenant who paid more than one-half of the rates applicable to his land. Therefore the English Bill simply placed the agricultural tenant in the same position as the agricultural tenant in Scotland. Why then was this money given to Scotland? It was the result of the Separatist policy of a Unionist Government adopted in 1889. Scotland had got this money as a separate nationality. The amount given was without reference to agricultural distress in Scotland, but was simply the 11–80ths of the amount required for England. In the first place they objected to the amount—£214,500—which was given to them. The Lord Advocate said that the proportion was carefully calculated at the time of the Probate Duty grant. So was Ireland's share carefully calculated at the same time, and yet they had the Commission which had been considering the financial relations between the United Kingdom and Ireland reporting, or about to report, unanimously that Ireland had been overtaxed, and that she bore far more than her fair share of taxation. They had been pressing the Government for a similar Committee for
  1468
  Scotland to inquire into what Scotland's fair share was, and he had no doubt the same principle which was discovered in the case of Ireland would bring out an equal result in the case of Scotland. And in the case of Scotland there was no setoff, as there was said to be in the case of Ireland, because it could not be maintained that Scotland received anything more than her fair share of grants out of the Imperial Exchequer. Indeed, their complaint was that she did not receive as much as she ought to receive. Therefore they said, in the first place, that the money which the Government were giving here was not in fair accord with what was their just proportion; and they protested against the delay which was taking place in appointing a Committee to investigate this matter. They had gone on time after time adopting and giving effect to that proportion without having that proportion fairly ascertained by a responsible Committee of the House. The £214,500 being Scotch money, the question was how was it to be applied? Their contention was that, being Scotch money, it ought to be applied in accordance with Scotch wishes. They ought to give the people of Scotland the opportunity of being consulted regarding the application of the money. Scotland had had no such opportunity. The time had been far too short, and the Bill was to be rushed through Parliament on the English lines although the cases were quite dissimilar, and they were to be voted down by an overwhelming majority of Tory English Members in a matter which did not concern the people of England and which concerned the people of Scotland alone. This was not the first time that this question had arisen. It arose at the time of the Probate Duty Grant. Then the Unionist Government of the day intended by their Bill to deal with Scotland exactly as they had dealt with England. The money was to go to the relief of local rates, but opposition was raised to that method of dealing with Scotch money, and it was allocated to local authorities for one year only, and the next year the Government brought in a Bill, which had the unanimous consent of the people of Scotland, giving the money practically to free education. That was what they asked the Government to do in the

  1469
  present case. He would like to point out that although classification was competent and could he adopted by the landed interest in Scotland, yet they found that, out of about 900 parishes, only 150 parishes had adopted classification down to the present time. That showed that classification was not a popular method in Scotland. He quite admitted that, in the case of purely rural parishes, there might not be the same necessity for classification as in the case of burgh landward parishes; but, even in purely rural cases, they had the case of private villa and other residents, and there was no reason why, if they were going on the principle of means and substance, those should not have been classified if the people of the counties thought that was the proper assessment. By the Local Government Act of 1889, the Unionist Government of that time established a county rate, and they imposed it equally upon landlord and tenant. They observed no principle of classification in that rate, and therefore practically admitted that the principle was wrong, by imposing the rate half on the occupier and half on the owner. That was the modern principle which had been adopted in Scotland, but the present Bill proposed to depart from it, and to institute a classification under which the agricultural tenant was to get the benefit. If classification was to be adopted, it should be applied to all and carried out fully, but under this Bill agricultural land was to be made an exception. The principle of non-classification in Scotland was that every tenant should pay taxes upon the rental of the particular portion of the parish he occupied. The question was not one of rates, but of rental. If relief was given in rates, the tenant would necessarily take into consideration in offering rent how much the rates were, and would offer accordingly. Relief therefore should be given on the rental, and not on the rates. Consequently he thought the Bill was founded upon a wrong principle, and would lead to endless difficulty.
  *CAPTAIN PIRIEdrew attention to the paucity of attendance in the House during the Debates on this Bill, and said he did so in order that the people of Scotland might know what degree of interest was taken by Members generally in matters affecting their
  1470
  national interests. This Bill would effect a revolution in the matter of voting in Scotland, and there ought to be good ground for its introduction. But he believed the only reason that could be truly alleged for its introduction was that a similar Bill had been brought forward for England. But no Measure deeply affecting the interests of the people should be introduced except in accordance with their wishes, and he considered that no evidence whatever had been adduced to show that the people of Scotland wanted this Bill, or even that there was any necessity for it. He admitted that depression might exist in agriculture in Scotland as elsewhere, but not to a greater extent than in other industries. In fact, there were some forms of industry at the present time in even a more depressed condition; and regarding Great Britain as a whole, he contended that agriculture was not so depressed as to justify the present legislation. But even were the depression greater than it was, why should the agricultural industry alone be selected for relief from the State? Why should not other forms of industry, which, perhaps, were suffering to a greater extent, claim, and be granted, similar relief? ["Hear, hear!"] He ventured to say that the Scotch farmer, whose great characteristic was the spirit of independence, would repudiate, and not welcome, the relief which it was proposed to give him under the Bill. It was the spirit of self-reliance and independence among the people which had made Scotland what she was, and the effect of a Measure of this kind would be to undermine that spirit. ["Hear, hear!"] No Measure would be welcomed which in any way whatever tended to destroy that spirit of independence which was a characterstic of the Scottish nation. It had been said by the hon. Member for North Ayrshire that the Opposition had not brought in a Measure for dealing with this purely Scotch money. It was not their business to do anything of the kind, but if they were to introduce a Measure it would be one for perfecting education in their country. It was a fact of which Scotchmen were justly proud that their nation was the best educated of any of the nations which formed the United Kingdom, and any

  1471
  Measure which would make their education even more perfect would be very acceptable to them. In introducing the Bill the Lord Advocate tried to make it more palatable by saying it was merely a temporary Measure. The right hon. Gentleman must either have been hard pressed, or he must underrate the intelligence of the Opposition to resort to such a subterfuge. It was maintained that the money would really go in relief of agriculture, but what was the benefit which could possibly accrue to the 80,000 agricultural holders in Scotland? On the average it would come to the vast total of 1s. per week each. The hon. Member for Elgin and Nairn stated that he had received a telegram to the effect that 2,250 constitutents of his would receive relief under the Bill. If 1s. each per week was what they would get, he did not grudge them the money. The hon. Baronet the Member for Midlothian, in speaking to the House yesterday, referred to some of the results which it was supposed the last General Election was to bring about. He did not, however, refer to what was maintained by many Conservatives, namely, that the the result of the General Election showed that Home Rule was dead. There was never a greater fallacy, and for hon. Members opposite to make such a statement proved conclusively how very little they understood the true feelings which animated Members of the Opposition who, when they adopted principles, adopted them not merely because it was opportune to do so, but because they intended to see them eventually paramount. The introduction of this Bill would resuscitate the cry for Home Rule, and he and his hon. Friends would not do their duty to their constituents if they did not do everything in their power to ensure the withdrawal of the Bill.
  On the return of Mr. SPEAKER, after the usual interval,
  *MR. JOHN COLVILLEsaid it would be his duty in the Recess to inform his constituents of the great want of interest taken in Scotch affairs by the majority of hon. Members in the House. He thought it was
  1472
  another argument in favour of devolution in such matters. In his constituency there were thousands of miners who had suffered much more severely from the existing depression than the tenant-farmers of Scotland. He had, on the previous day, presented a petition from the premier county of Scotland, Lanark, a section of which he had the honour to represent, praying that the Bill should not be passed. There were a very large number of people directly engaged in industrial avocations in that county who, in his judgment, would suffer very severlely from the operation of the Bill. It was not disputed, and he should be sorry to dispute it, that there was undoubtedly agricultural depression existing, and there had been various propositions made for dealing with it. The miners to whom he had referred earned, many of them, only 4s. a day, and were often not able to obtain employment for more than four or five days in the week. These men did not live in the large burghs so much as in the comparatively rural districts and the little villages which were scattered over the country, and upon these men the effect of the proposed change would fall seriously. The hon. Member for Peeblesshire had challenged them to come down to his part of Scotland and attempt to get the ear and support of the ratepayers and electors. He was prepared to accept that challenge, and hoped that if he did visit that part of the country as proposed, the hon. Member would return the compliment and visit his (Mr. Colville's) constituency, where the hon. Members' arguments would not find favour with the vast majority of the electors. There were not many counties in Scotland that could claim to have a greater stake in agriculture than Lanarkshire, and yet its County Council, after mature consideration, had not hesitated to oppose the Bill and to petition the House against its being passed into law. If the rates were to be increased after the passing of this Bill, the result would be that the miners would have to pay the increase. There were many other industries which were quite as much in want of assistance as agriculture. The hon. Gentleman opposite had asked who it was that really bore the burden of these rates in Scotland. The question

  1473
  was not a difficult one to answer—it was the bone and muscle of the country, the horny handed sons of toil that paid not only the rates but the rents. There had been many suggestions made as to the proper mode of dealing with this question of agricultural distress. Although he could not pretend to have any special knowledge with regard to this important industry, he fully sympathised with its distressed condition, and he suggested that the Government, instead of trying to pass this Bill, should do their best to give the tenants security for their holdings, whilst the landlords should reduce their rents proportionately to the fall in the price of agricultural produce. The Government should also propose some scheme that would enable the tenants to become the owners of their holdings. That would be a far better form of relief to give than to grant this dole out of the public Exchequer towards paying a portion of their rates. The people of Scotland objected to the principle of the Bill, and to the proposal to spend national funds for the benefit of one class of the community. If this Bill were to become law it would be an inducement to other industries to claim relief on the same ground. He should oppose this Bill because he believed it to be unjust and injurious. ["Hear, hear!"]
  *MR. JOHN McLEODsaid that apart from the principle or rather want of principle underlying the Bill, the Measure had other objectionable aspects that would justify him in voting against it. If this sum of £200,000 were cut up among the various Scotch counties in the manner proposed, the poor counties in Scotland would get the least benefit from the Bill, while the rich counties would get by far the largest share of the grant. The road rate was admitted to be one of the heaviest rates, yet Sutherlandshire, with its 618 miles of road, would receive comparatively little relief; whereas Stirling, which had only 523 miles of road, would, on account of its high valuation, obtain an enormous amount of relief. The Highland counties, with their low valuation and high rates, would receive nothing like the amount of relief that the highly-rented carse-lands of Stirling would receive. In the same way the small tenants in the Highlands would get little
  1474
  relief, while the well-to-do farmers would benefit to a large extent. In his own constituency of Sutherlandshire, there were between 2,000 and 3,000 holders of land under £30 rental, and not more than 200 or 300 holders above £30 rental. The operation of the Bill would be that the small holders of land would receive some £600, whilst the large holders would receive from £1,600 to to £1,800. There were parishes where nineteen-twentieths of the population would not receive more than a £5 note between them, whilst a few individuals would receive several hundred pounds. The average crofter's rental in Sutherland was £3 per annum, and the average rate was from 1s. to 1s. 2d. in the £. The result would be that the utmost the crofter would receive from the Bill would be the magnificent sum of 3s. or 3s. 6d. per annum, while the large farmer would receive scores if not hundreds of pounds. The operation of the Bill would therefore be to put money into the pockets of those who least required it, and give next to nothing to those who really deserved assistance. As to the question of classification, he could assure the right hon. Gentleman the Lord Advocate that the agricultural occupiers had no reason whatever to be afraid of the burghal authorities. In no single instance the right hon. Gentleman had mentioned would the Bill improve the position of the agricultural tenants in the burghs. The burghal authorities had already recognised that some system of classification should be introduced, and so much had they recognised the peculiar position of the agricultural occupiers, that they had gone further than the Bill would go in relieving them. Therefore they would do a great deal worse than to leave this matter of classification to the localities. He had made a calculation as to how the agricultural occupier in the parish of Inverness would fare under the Bill as compared with the present mode of rating, and he found that he would be worse off under the Bill than he was at present; and, in passing, he might just refer to the question of the Land Tax. The borough of Inverness, while this huge sum was being paid out to the counties, was to be bought off with the munificent sum of £156. He was very much mistaken if the people of Inverness were prepared to allow their whole system of classification

  1475
  to be overturned for so paltry a sum. In conclusion he would say just one word with regard to the grant of £15,000 to the congested districts in the Highlands. Supposing that every farthing of that money were to go to the congested districts for a much longer period than five years, it would not touch the fringe of the question. The amount of relief which would come to each crofter tenant in his constituency would come to about 3s. each. Under the Crofters Act they had had reductions of rent of from 4s. to 10s. in the pound. He had no hesitation in saying that the sum proposed was entirely inadequate, and the Government, by introducing a short Measure including the small leaseholders within the scope of the Crofters Act, would do infinitely more good to the agricultural community in the Highlands than would ever be done by this miserable sum of £15,000. In his opinion, to accept the sum in any way in lieu of the claim they made for a reform of the land laws would be selling their birthright for a mess of pottage, and he for one would never be a party to a Measure which struck at the very root of the finance of the country, and would do nothing whatever towards removing the undoubted grievances that existed. They desired no doles from the Imperial Exchequer. All they asked for was justice. Their complaint was, not that they were rated at too high a figure, but that they could not get sufficient land to be rated upon; and he said unhesitatingly that if the House were to place the enormous area of land that had been proved to exist at the disposal of the Highland people, with some temporary assistance they would be relieved from all their present difficulties.
  *MR. J. MARTIN WHITEsaid that on one ground he had to join hon. Members opposite in thanking the Government for what they had done. By this scheme a large number of Members of the House would have a great deal of money given to them, and thus the present Government were taking up in a practical fashion the Liberal policy of paying election expenses. [Laughter.] His only regret was that the bulk of the payment fell to the other side of the House. But, speaking seriously, he declined to accept the Measure because, as a landlord, most of whose farms fell
  1476
  in within the next two or three years, he knew that he would then get the full benefit of the Bill. Farmers and landlords would have to sit down and discuss the whole situation in the light of this Measure. Then he objected to the Bill because the distribution of the grants was entirely unequal and unjust. He had property in two parishes. In one there was classification, in the other there was not. In those parishes where there was classification very little relief was to be given. He should like to know whether it was urged that in these parishes agriculturists were not suffering from the depression while in other parishes they were. He should also like to know why farmers whose leases ran on for 19 years were going to get the benefit for that period, while farmers whose leases were for one year would only get the benefit for one year. Experience showed that the further land was from the centre of population, the greater was the reduction in the rent, but the Bill took no cognisance of that. It did not recognise, for example, that railway rates were kept high, though everything else had fallen in price, and that that was the reason why land in remote districts was in a much more distressed condition than land near to populous districts. The Bill was chokeful of injustices. He opposed it on the further ground that the Scotch were an independent people, who would not filch money from the general taxpayers, who, after all, included farmers and ploughmen. This Bill frittered away the money that was available. It was a mere drop in the bucket, compared with the relief that would come from the readjustment of the railway rates, or a change in the law regarding the importation of cattle or agricultural holdings. A case could, he thought be made out for an alteration in the rating of land. But a Committee was to be appointed on the subject of local taxation. Why should they not wait for two or three years. Several Scotch Unionists had admitted to him that they were entirely against this Measure. If the money was to go to the rural districts, it seemed to him by far the most satisfactory way would be to wait and take up the education money promised next year, and with the two sums to deal with the whole question of Scotch

  1477
  education at that time. They might in that way be able to have a splendid education scheme for Scotland. ["Hear, hear!"]
  MR. J. B. BALFOURsupported the Amendment. The Bill, whatever its merits might be, was somewhat in the nature of a surprise for Scotland. There had been Commissions and Committees, but none of the suggestions made before them had the slightest resemblance to those embodied in this Bill. He would take as the reason for the Bill that what had been stated by the Lord Advocate—namely, that its principle was to bring about a partial rectification or redress of the inequality which the hon. and learned Gentleman stated to exist between the rating of the real or heritable estate, as it was called in Scotland, and personal estate. He was not going to argue the question as to whether more should be laid upon personalty than at present, but he thought, under modern conditions there was a great deal to be said for making personalty give a larger contribution to local burdens than now, and that there would be a very prevalent disposition to consider any Measure directed to that end, not only in a candid, but sympathetic spirit. But was that what this Bill did, or anything in the least like it? What was done by the Bill was that there was a reduction of one class or kind of real or heritable estate to which a particular subvention was to be given and no account whatever was taken of any other real or hereditable estate. Upon that consideration alone, he should submit that there was a fatal objection to the Bill, because he utterly denied that the great problem of the controversy between contributions for real and personal estate could be dealt or grappled with unless they had placed before them at once the whole of the problem. One of the gravest objections to the manner of dealing with it in this Bill was that it practically prejudged by Parliamentary vote a portion of the question which should be left to the consideration of the Commission which had been promised on this subject. It would be vain to go to the Commission and adduce evidence upon that subject without feeling that the hands of the Commission were largely tied by the judgment which Parliament would be said to
  1478
  have pronounced if this Bill should become law. The Bill took no cognisance of an assessable ratepayer, but it took from the general taxpayer, altogether apart from his residence, a subvention for the purposes of the Bill. Whatever might be said with regard to the mode of dealing with personalty, he submitted it was clear that without having the means of deciding how the whole question as to realty should be solved, they could not arrive at a just decision. Here, however, it was not only that the whole realty of the country was not submitted for consideration, but there was not even a measure drawn as between urban and rural property. One kind of rural property was carved out, and that alone was made the subject of the provisions of this Bill. He said if the Bill was to be regarded as directed to that end, these were absolutely fatal objections to its being received. Whatever might be said upon it as defended upon these grounds, that was certainly one upon which it could not be defended. A good deal had been said with regard to the matter of classification. He thought classification was within its own limit and sphere a very fair and just principle. They had recognised it in Scotland down to this time in legislation, and very largely in practice, and it was not only under the Poor Law Act of 1845 that that had been recognised, but in the more recent Act of 1892 relating to police burghs the same principle had been recognised by which agricultural land was rated at one-fourth of the value of certain other kinds of property. He thought it was plain there were good reasons for such an arrangement, because there was no doubt that a very large proportion of the expense that was incurred in the administration of a burgh or rural community was one from which the agricultural land within it derived little if any advantage, such as in the matters of lighting, watching, and paving. There was a variety of classification in some parishes, and no classification in others—the majority of parishes. A good many reasons might be given for many parishes neglecting classification. If parishes were so circumstanced that all the property was of the same character there was nothing to classify. If the parish was purely rural, there was no

  1479
  material for classification under the Bill. Where there was property of different kinds in the same rateable area, some of which took the least benefit from the expenditure of local expenses, or cost less local expense than others, there would be not only two classifications, but in some cases as many as seven. This Bill proposed, indirectly, and without any rural community having been consulted, to enforce classification virtually under two heads, one being agricultural land, which, however, by the Bill, included a great deal not agricultural land, and the other property which was outside that description. It was plain this Bill at once destroyed a great deal of property of an intermediate character. There were, for instance, mines, a class of property generally placed between houses, shops and factories on the one hand, and agricultural land on the other. But without consulting those interested in the mining industry that classification was swept away from this class, and would be treated in the same way as houses and shops. He supposed they all knew that the industry of mining was sometimes a good deal distressed, and he was sorry to say at this moment, there seemed rather a dark cloud hanging over it. But here was a proposal indirectly and incidentally to place a very much larger charge on the industry of mining for the sake of giving a contribution to the industry of agriculture, and that was a very serious objection to the Bill. There were also burghal communities in which classification was abolished, and yet these were communities which derived no benefit whatever from the Bill. Not only would the urban communities get no benefit under the Bill, but it would be very injurious to them, and he did not see how it could be easy, looking at the framework of the Bill as it stood, to carve out these faults. He gave these illustrations to show how far the Bill was from being an attempt to deal with the great question of personalty and realty. It disturbed the assessment on realty without bringing it into contact with personalty at all. Therefore, under a Bill like this they had not the means of solving even any part of the problem, because it could not be solved in part. They must have all the elements for total solution, otherwise it would be much better to let it alone. [Opposition
  1480
  cheers.] Why should not the Government, when they were in the course of appointing a Commission to consider this great question as between real and personal estate, postpone dealing with the matter legislatively? [Opposition cheers.] They knew how to open suspense accounts when it was desired, because they proposed to put the relief for the crofters into a suspense account. [Opposition cheers.] He suggested to his right hon. Friend that he might do the same with the rest of the money, and then, if the result of the labours of the Commission were to recommend that the apportionment of the money should be in the way proposed by the Bill it could be done. But it did not require any prophet to see that the Commission would not do that alone. [Opposition cheers.] They would either do a great deal more or a great deal less. Let them look to what Parliament would have committed itself, and how it would have tied the hands of the Commission before that time. What was the excuse for taking up this fault and dealing with it, and leaving all the rest, not only undealt with, but leaving the case prejudiced? Because, if it should come to be the opinion of the Commission that a fair allocation from personalty should be different from that proposed by the Bill, this, at all events, would be mortgaged for five years, and probably in perpetuity. The certain results of the Bill would be to produce great hardship and injustice in some localities. He would like to hear the rural ratepayers on this matter. [Opposition cheers.] He had had no opportunity of saying a word about it. He would not go into the question of whether there was any defence for the Bill on the ground that it was to go in aid of a depressed industry, because that was repudiated by the Government, except as an incident of the Bill. But the great majority of the supporters of the Bill spoke mainly of the depressed industry, and said next to nothing about an adjustment of local taxation. [Opposition cheers.] Very great inequalities would be brought about in burghs. Urban communities, which would not get a single penny out of the Bill, would nevertheless have their whole system of taxation overturned, and those discriminations, which were called classifications between different

  1481
  descriptions of property, would be obliterated without any compensating advantage. That, to his mind, was the great objection to the Bill. He would not go into the question whether there was any defence for the Bill on account of its going to the aid of distressed agriculture, because that object was repudiated by the Government except so far as it was an accident of the Bill, although all, or nearly all, the supporters of the Bill spoke about the distressed industry and said nothing about the undue allocation of local rating as between personalty and realty. No one connected with Scotland could doubt that both the landlord and the tenant had suffered from the fall in prices of agricultural produce; and he was glad to say that in Scotland the landowners had shown a disposition to share the losses with the tenants. But, however that might be, there had not been, nor was there now, in Scotland that acute depression which should cause Parliament to anticipate the proceedings of the proposed Commission as to the rating of personalty and realty; and therefore there was not that urgency which would alone excuse hurried legislation in the interest of one class.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL (Sir ROBERT FINLAY,)said that his right hon. Friend had advised the Government to carry this Bill into a suspense account. The Government had not the slightest intention of following that advice. [Cheers.] They intended to pass the Bill with the least possible delay, and in doing so—whatever hon. Gentlemen opposite might say—they would be carrying out the real wishes of the people of Scotland. [Cheers.] He heard with satisfaction the admission of his right hon. Friend that there was an injustice in the present system of rating as between personalty and realty. But his right hon. Friend complained that the Bill prejudged the result of the Commission which was to be formed without delay to inquire into the whole subject of rating. His right hon. Friend forgot that the Bill was a temporary Measure. The inquiry into rating must take some time if it was to be complete, and did his right hon. Friend desire that the agriculturists of Scotland should continue subject to an admitted injustice without the application
  1482
  of any palliative while this Commission was sitting? [Cheers.] It had been asked what the object of the Measure was. Most of the speeches from the other side of the House had been founded on a complete misapprehension of the subject. Hon. Gentleman after hon. Gentleman had declared that the Measure was paraded by the Government as a complete remedy for agricultural distress in Scotland, and that it was nothing of the kind. But the Measure did not profess to be a cure for the evils from which agriculture in Scotland was admittedly suffering. What it did profess to do was to remedy one specific injustice in the matter of local taxation from which agriculture in Scotland was suffering. The scope and object of the Measure were described in one sentence in a resolution unanimously passed in its favour by the Scotch Chamber of Agriculture. The Bill was an attempt, said the resolution, to redeem land of the excessive share of local taxation which it at present bore. [Cheers.] The Bill, in the first place, proposed to reform local taxation and to give some relief to the agricultural interest; in the second place, it proposed to set aside a sum for providing a fund for the relief of the congested districts in the Highlands of Scotland; and, in the third place, it proposed to put an end to the Land Tax in the Scotch burghs during the term of the Bill. Two justifications had been brought forward for the first part of the Bill, which dealt with the rating of agriculture. It had been said on the other side of the House that those justifications were mutually inconsistent. He disputed that contention. The Government said, in the first place, that the system of rating was unfair to agriculturists; and, in the second place, that there was a special urgency for the relief of that grievance, having regard to the depressed condition of agriculture in Scotland at the present time. What was there inconsistent in those two positions? Somehow or other personal property had slipped out of its due share of the burden of rates, and, owing to the facility of collection, the whole burden had fallen upon real property. ["Hear, hear!"] It was pointed out long ago by Adam Smith that a tax upon the value of a dwelling-house was one of the fairest

  1483
  taxes that could be devised, because by such a tax they got as near as they could get, without inquisition into details, to what a man's income was, as what a man spent on his dwelling was a fair test of what he had got to spend on himself and his family. But he had a greater authority on that matter than Adam Smith in the hon. Member for West Fife, who had enlivened the Debate with an admirable speech. [Cheers and laughter.] There was a story told of a friend of Sir Walter Scott's who prided himself on his conversational powers, and who, having once met an obdurate subject on whom he could make no impression asked:—
  "Is there anything you would like to hear me talk about?" "Can you say anything clever about bend leather?"
  asked the other—[laughter]—and the conversationalist had to confess himself defeated. [Laughter.] But the hon. Member for West Fife would have been equal to the occasion, because he had been witty on a subject compared to which bend leather was a trifle. [Cheers and laughter.] The hon. Gentleman said that a tax on dwellings was a fair tax indeed; but when agricultural land was assessed in the same way as a dwelling-house great injustice was done. It was not assessing the farmer on his income, but upon his business premises, together with his raw material and his stock-in-trade. [Cheers.] Would anything but the force of habit allow such a state of things to endure for a day? The principle of classification was introduced into Scotland to enable parishes to mitigate the evils of this system. So long ago as 1850 Sir G. Cornewall Lewis, in his evidence before the Select Committee of the House of Lords on parochial assessments, was strongly in favour of the classification system. But the principle of classification was left in the hands of the parishes, and it had been carried out very partially. In only 158 parishes out of 877 had the principle been carried out; but in every case it had told in favour of agricultural land, and what this Bill proposed was to make the system universal, so that the local diversities and divergences in particular parishes might be swept away. The hon. and learned Member for Dumfries had made it a matter of complaint
  1484
  that "local peculiarities" should be interfered with. But surely it was preferable that local eccentricities should be swept away and one uniform and intelligible principle of classification applied throughout the whole of Scotland. The question was whether there was not a way of palliating the admitted injustice to agriculturists pending the Inquiry which was to be instituted. There was a considerable depression in agriculture in Scotland. The right hon. Member for the Bridgeton Division devoted a great part of his speech to proving that depression in agriculture did not exist in Scotland; but since the right hon. Gentleman spoke there had been a consensus of opinion on his own side that his statistics must, somehow or other, be quite wrong. [Cheers and laughter.] The Convention of Royal Burghs in Scotland, in their memorial of July 4, said:—
  "Agricultural depression has reached a point unprecedented in this country, and that, notwithstanding that trade generally throughout the country has been increasing, particularly during the last year."
  He would refer again to the figures quoted by the Lord Advocate as to the fall in values, for the purpose of comparing them with the English figures. As between the years 1879–80 and 1893–94, while on the assessment in England on agricultural land under Schedule A there had been a fall of 23 per cent. in value, in Scotland there had been a fall of 20 per cent. Therefore, if it could not be denied that there was agricultural depression in Scotland, the Government were justified in claiming this as the time to remedy by a temporary Measure, pending fuller inquiry, what was admitted to be an injustice. [Cheers.] Language had been used by Gentlemen opposite which seemed to imply that the grant from the Imperial revenue meant an increased rate in the burghs. The hon. and learned Member for Dumfries had spoken of "putting your hand into the pocket of the burgh ratepayers," and some hon. Gentlemen had prophesied a storm of indignation in the burghs. He asserted that any pressure on the burghs in respect of this Measure would be absolutely inappreciable. [Cheers.] There was no such antagonism between the

  1485
  ratepayers of the burghs and the country in Scotland as hon. Gentlemen represented. The smaller burghs were closely identified with the country round them; and if agriculture suffered, they suffered. They would rejoice to see a Measure which promoted the prosperity of agriculture. His hon. and learned Friend opposite said this money was to be given only to the farmers in Scotland. He seemed to be under the impression that each farmer, as soon as he got a certain remission of rates, was going to dig a hole in the garden and there bury it. ["Hear, hear!"] The farmer was going to expend it on his family, with the result that more money would be spent with the village shopkeeper. The agricultural labourer, too, would profit. It would very often make the whole difference of that extra 1s. a week which the farmer would like to give, but which he could hardly give because of his present burdens. [Derisive laughter.] Right hon. Gentlemen opposite said that this would all go into the pockets of the landlords. Would it? In Highland parishes, so far as the crofters were concerned, it could not by any possibility, and as to landlords elsewhere, it could only do so where leases fall in. And, as this remedy was only for five years, it really was an extravagant supposition that in respect of a temporary remedy of this sort there would be an increase of rents even in those cases in which leases did fall in. The truth was that in this matter the language used on the other side perhaps justified the suspicion that they disliked landlords so much that, lest incidentally they should give any benefit to landlords, they were willing to continue an injustice to farmers. [Cheers.] The right hon. Member for Bridgeton spoke of the relief to the congested districts as utterly inadequate, and he arrived at that conclusion by mutiplying the £15,000 a year by five, and then said the interest on £75,000 would be perfectly contemptible. But who told his right hon. Friend that only the interest of this sum was to be applied to the benefit of the congested districts? ["Hear, hear!"] The Government proposed that this money should be intrusted to a proper authority, to be determined, for the purpose of applying not merely the
  1486
  interest but, as far as they thought right, the capital, and they believed a better investment could not be made. It was not desired to encourage emigration from the congested districts in the Highands; what was desired was to show the people there the way to live and thrive at home. The Government believed that this sum of £75,000, properly applied, might do a vast amount of good in districts which sorely needed such help. ["Hear, hear!"] As regarded the abolition of the Land Tax in Scottish burghs, did the House know what it cost to collect the £7,000 of Land Tax which was got from the burghs? The collection of that £7,000 actually cost £2,000, £1,300 of which was defrayed by the burghs and £700 by the Crown. Could anything more utterly extravagant be conceived? And had not the Government, in these circumstances, acted wisely in saying that the tax should be put an end to? [Cheers.] It was said that in some burghs this tax had been redeemed, and his hon. and learned Friend opposite waxed quite pathetic in depicting the woes of Dumfries and Wemyss when they saw their neighbours getting advantages out of this Bill which they had paid for in hard cash. He did not know whether the moving picture which had been drawn would soften the hard heart of the Lord Advocate, but the fact was redemption had proceeded to a very small extent with regard to the Land Tax in burghs. It was originally £8,000, and only £1,000 had been redeemed. In the Inverness burghs the tax stood at £156; of that they had redeemed £3 7s. In Nairn the whole £7 16s., which was the quota, remained unredeemed, and Forres with £15 12s. and Fortrose £3 18s. also remained unredeemed. This was precisely one of those imposts which, having regard to the trouble and cost of collection, it was proper should be brought to an end. [Cheers.] On the whole he asked the House to say that it was a beneficial Measure, one which would do good in Scotland, which would redress admitted grievances, and bring some palliation, if not a remedy, to a most deserving industry, the backbone of the country, which was suffering under severe depression. [Cheers.]
  MR. R. WALLACE, who spoke amid cries of "Divide!" said his constituency took a simple and homely view of this Bill. A great deal of learning had been expended on this question, and a large amount of inchoate philosophy had been uttered. [Laughter.] But the people of the Canongate of Edinburgh took a direct view of the subject, and so far as he understood them their first blush of the matter was pleasant. [Laughter.] They were to have £215,000 of their own money returned, though when they looked at the way in which it was to be returned they were not so sure about its pleasantness. According to the Government the incidence of taxation in regard to personalty and realty was so obscure that a special investigation, to occupy five years, was to be instituted. At the same time, they were rushing through in this Bill what was a distinct and pronounced principle in the philosophy of taxation. There was no question in which a larger proportion of the electorate took a deeper interest and one specially antagonistic to the views of the Government than the susceptibility of realty to special taxation. The people did not like the look of the £7,000 remission of the Land Tax; they felt it was the thin edge of the wedge. Then £15,000 was to be devoted to the congested districts. The people of the Canongate were not quite sure what a congested district meant, and he thought it was a phrase which had crept into philanthropic politics without being thoroughly understood or what its consequences might be. But the Canongate was quite as much congested as any district in the Highlands, and why should not money also be devoted there, and if there, where was the system to stop? He thought that the relief to agriculture ought to have come out of the rents. In his constituency they did not believe in the divine right of the landlords; in fact, they had strong opinions as to the responsibilities of those who came into the possession of the soil, and he believed that he had correctly expressed the feelings of the vast mass of the people of Scotland with regard to the provisions of the Bill.
  Question put:—
  The House divided:—Ayes, 276; Noes, 139.—(Division List, No. 331.)
  The announcement of the figures were received with Ministerial cheers.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read a Second time, and committed for Monday next.

FINANCE BILL.
As amended, considered.
MR. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWENbrought up the following new clause, which was read a First time:—

FINANCE BILL.

  RELIEF FROM LAND TAX OF POOR BENEFICES.
  "If the incumbent of any ecclesiastical benefice (1) applies within two years after the passing of this Act to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue and satisfies them that the aggregate value of his benefice (2), estimated according to the rules and regulations of the Acts relating to the income tax, does not exceed one hundred and sixty pounds a year, and that part of that value arises from land subject to land tax, whether actually assessed thereto or not, the Commissioners shall exonerate that land in like manner as if the land tax charged thereon had been redeemed:
  Provided that the Commissioners, before granting such exoneration, may satisfy themselves that the land tax in the land tax parish comprising such land is equally assessed upon the present value of the land in the parish subject to land tax, and for that purpose the surveyors of taxes shall, with a view to obtaining a correct assessment, have the like right under the Land Tax Acts as if he were assessed to the land tax."
  He said that this clause would naturally have been moved on the Committee stage, but as the hon. Member was late, and in order to suit the convenience of the Committee, he withdrew it. In so doing he informed the Chancellor of the Exchequer and everybody else whom he could that he intended to move it at the present stage. He certainly understood his right hon. Friend to say that the Government were prepared to accept it.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EX-CHEQUER (Sir MICHAEL HICKS BEACH,)dissented.
  MR. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWENsaid that was what he understood. Since then he had been informed that certain words which were used by the Chancellor of the Exchequer were misconstrued by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouth, and that, owing to that, the Chancellor of the Exchequer felt he would not be acting strictly in accordance with, at all events, the understanding come to if he accepted the clause on the present occasion. He confessed to being exceedingly disappointed at this state of affairs, and he thought there would be very considerable disappointment in the country that a clause which would have conferred a small boon upon a very deserving and hardworking class could not have been pressed owing to that mistake. But, of course, he recognised that if the Government would not accept it, it was of no use his pressing it. He recognised that if the Government could not accept the Amendment it was of no earthly use for him to press it, and there were two additional reasons for his not doing so—that the sum involved was a small one, the proposed relief amounting to only £2,300 a year, and, secondly, that all Church people, he was sorry to say, were not agreed as to its policy. Under the circumstances, though he regretted he was not enabled to press the new clause, he should formally move it to put himself in order, merely adding that he trusted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be able to hold out some hope that next year something would be done to relieve the clergy, who were taxed most heavily and unfairly. [Cheers.]
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTsaid he understood that when they were making arrangements for passing the Bill through Committee certain new clauses, of which this was one, would not be pressed, and that understanding did assist in passing the Bill in a moderate time. Under those circumstances, he felt quite sure, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not feel at liberty to depart from the understanding arrived at.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir MICHAEL HICKS BEACH,)said he was afraid that there was more than one misunderstanding on the matter. He did not intend
  1490
  the other night to convey to the right hon. Gentleman opposite anything more that that his hon. Friend had informed him that it was not his intention to move the clause in Committee, and he certainly did not convey to his hon. Friend any promise whatever to support it on Report. The clause, undoubtedly, related to a class which at the present moment was very heavily pressed by taxation. [Cheers.] He was not satisfied, however, that this clause was the best way in which the question could be dealt with, but he would undertake to examine into the matter more thoroughly before next year, bearing in mind that the proposals in the Bill with regard to the Land Tax would certainly prove to be a considerable boon to the clergy as well as to other Land Tax payers. ["Hear, hear!"] It would be his wish, if possible, to make some proposal to Parliament which would improve the position of the clergy in respect to taxation. [Cheers.] He trusted that in the circumstances the clause would not be pressed.
  VISCOUNT CRANBORNEcould not say how much he regretted the decision at which the Government had arrived. ["Hear, hear!"] Considering the history of the present Session, he thought something was due from the Government to the request of Churchmen in this matter. He was concerned privately in the arrangement come to on Thursday night, and felt bound, therefore, to say a word or two to the House. The hon. Member for Tunbridge suggested to him that the clause then under discussion should be postponed until the Report stage, and his own opinion was that such an arrangement would be justifiable if the Government entered into an engagement to accept the clause on Report. He was under very great obligations to his friends in the country, whom he had assured that he saw every prospect of the clause being accepted, though he had no authority to pledge Her Majesty's Government at that time. His hon. Friend informed him that the Government had undertaken to accept the clause—mistakenly, as it turned out; and, speaking, as he had the right to do, on behalf of a certain number of his hon. Friends in whose names the clause had been placed on the Paper, he said that it would be proper for the clause to be

  1491
  withdrawn and moved on Report. Unfortunately, a misunderstanding arose with the Leader of the Opposition. Apparently, there was some kind of an arrangement made with the right hon. Gentleman, which, although the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not mean it, was interpreted by him as meaning that the clause would not be moved on Report. It was a mistake on the part of the Leader of the Opposition, who had no right to come to that conclusion. As to whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have been so ready to make a concession to the other side, that was a question on which he should like to reserve his opinion. As it was, the clergy of the country, who had been excluded from the Rating Bill, would have to wait until next year, when this Act might be extended to them. He understood that the Leader of the Opposition spoke the other night in very high terms of the clergy, and reprobated the Government for not having included them in the Rating Bill. The right hon. Gentleman said that the clergy were admirable people, and gave more of their substance, according to their means, than other persons. He very much regretted the decision arrived at, but desired to extend his respectful congratulations to hon. Gentlemen opposite for the great influence they had exercised on the Government business during the present Session. [Cheers and counter cheers.] Three or four, or perhaps a few more, Welsh Members had, by their ability and persistence, for which he respectfully complimented them, succeeded in producing a very profound impression upon Her Majesty's Government, and he wanted to compliment the Leader of the Opposition also, although he imagined the right hon Gentleman was under exactly the same control as Her Majesty's Government. [Laughter.] He trusted the decision arrived at would not form a precedent for other decisions. The matter was a very small one, but he hoped that when they had under consideration some important subjects relating to the Church and Church interests, Her Majesty's Government would see their way to consider the interests of their friends more than the saving of two or three hours time of the House of Commons—[cheers]—and would
  1492
  not be ready to make concessions without entering into very full explanations with their friends first. [Renewed cheers.]
  *THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EX-CHEQUERexplained that he never asked the hon. Member for Tunbridge to postpone this matter to the Report stage. His hon. Friend said he intended to postpone it until Report, and he conveyed that intention to the Leader of the Opposition. As to whether this was a concession to the Opposition or not he could only say that if his hon. Friend had moved the clause in Committee he could not have accepted it; because he could only have treated it in the same way as a clause which he had himself proposed, and had withdrawn in deference to objections that were made to it, in order to secure the conclusion of the proceedings in Committee.
  MR. STANLEY LEIGHTONthanked the Government for the line they had taken in this matter. [Laughter and cheers.] Speaking as a Churchman, he was wholly opposed to the Amendment. There was a very distinct difference of opinion amongst Churchmen in the country and in the House of Commons as to the policy or the propriety of accepting State aid or money from the taxes towards the clergy. [Cheers.] He protested against the speech of his noble Friend.
  Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 11,—

  PROHIBITION AGAINST POSSESSION OF SUGAR AND OTHER SUBSTANCES BY DEALERS IN AND RETAILERS OF BEER.
  (1.) A dealer in or retailer of beer shall not receive or have in his custody or possession any sugar, saccharine substance, extract, or syrup (except for domestic use, the proof whereof shall lie on him), or any preparation for increasing the gravity of beer.
  (2.) If a dealer in or retailer of beer receives or has in his custody or possession any article in contravention of this section, the article shall be forfeited, and he shall incur a line of twenty pounds.
  (3.) This section shall not apply to sugar and other preparations deposited in conformity with section seven of the Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1885, in the entered sugar store of a brewer of beer for sale, who carries on upon the same premises the trade or business of a dealer in or retailer of beer.
  *THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER*THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER moved, in Sub-section (3), to leave out the word "who," and to insert the words
  "nor to sugar or syrup kept for sale in the ordinary course of trade of a grocer, where the brewer or grocer."
  Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 18,—

  INTEREST UPON ESTATE DUTY AND OTHER DEATH DUTIES.
  (1.) Simple interest at the rate of three per cent. per annum without deduction for income tax shall be payable upon all estate duty from the date of the death of the deceased, or, where the duty is payable by instalments, from the date at which the first instalment becomes due, and shall be recoverable in the same manner as if it were part of the duty.
  (2.) The foregoing provision shall apply to the interest on all death duties as defined by section thirteen of the principal Act in like manner as if it were herein re-enacted and made applicable to those duties.
  (3.) The Commissioners of Inland Revenue may remit the interest on any of such death duties where the amount appears to them to be so small as not to repay the expense and trouble of calculation and account.
  *THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER*THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER moved, in Sub-section (1), after the word "instalments," to insert the words "or becomes due at any later-date than six months after the death."
  Amendment agreed to.
  *THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER*THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER moved, in the same subsection, before the word "becomes," to insert the words "or the duty."
  Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 20,—

  OBJECTS OF NATIONAL, SCIENTIFIC, OR HISTORIC INTEREST.
  (1.) Where any property passing on the death of a deceased person consists of such pictures, prints, books, manuscripts, works of art, scientific collections, or other things not yielding income as appear to the Treasury to be of national, scientific, or historic interest, and is settled so as to be enjoyed in kind in succession by different persons, such property shall not, on the death of such deceased person, be aggregated with other property, but shall form an estate
  1494
  by itself, and, while enjoyed in kind by a person not competent to dispose of the same, be exempt from estate duty, but if it is sold or is in the possession of some person who is then competent to dispose of the same, shall become liable to estate duty.
  (2.) The person selling the same, or for whose benefit the same is sold, and also the person being in possession and competent to dispose of the same, shall be accountable for the duty, and shall deliver an account, in accordance with section eight of the principal Act, in the case of a sale within one month after the sale, and in the case of a person coming into possession, or if in possession becoming competent to dispose, within six months after he so comes into possession, or becomes competent to dispose.
  MR. H. C. F. LUTTRELL MR. H. C. F. LUTTRELL (Devon, Tavistock) moved to omit Clause 20, in order to afford the Government an opportunity of making a statement of what they intended to do with respect to works of art. He understood from the discussion a few days ago that the Government would make a proposal which would allow of objects of art supposed to be of national interest being open to the inspection of the public on certain days of the year at any rate. Upon the Amendment Paper there was nothing to show the intentions of the Government. The Opposition believed the exemption of works of art from taxation was a retrograde step, because such works were luxuries and ought to be subject to taxation.
  *THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERfeared that he had nothing to add to what he had already said on this subject in Committee. The principle of the clause was that when a person was simply a curator of artistic objects, which rather involved him in expense than gave him any profit, he should not be, chargeable with duty, but that as soon as those objects could be sold the duty should become payable.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTsaid that he wished to know what decision the right hon. Gentleman had come to upon the question of public access to these collections.
  *THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERwas understood to say that he would express his views on the subject when a subsequent Amendment was reached, as it would not be in order for him to do so on the present Amendment.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTsaid that he must vote against the clause if nothing was going to be done to secure

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  that the public should have access to the collections in respect of which the exemption was to be granted.
  *MR. GIBSON BOWLESsaid that the right hon. Gentleman had exaggerated, no doubt unconsciously, what the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said with reference to this clause. He had had a great deal of consultation with the Chancellor of the Exchequer for a long time with regard to these Death Duties, and he had had many differences of opinion with him, he was sorry to say; but he had always found him ready and prepared to carry out, not only in the letter, but in the spirit, any undertaking he had made. [Cheers.] The right hon. Member for West Monmouth had said that he must vote against this clause on account of something that was not in it; and the hon. Member for the Tavistock division said that he was going to vote against the clause on account of something that was in it—although he was prepared to show the hon. Member that that was not the case. The hon. Member contended that this clause imposed a duty on poor people, and let the rich people off; but he thought the hon. Member had forgotten Clause 15 of the Finance Act of 1894. That clause made it lawful for the Treasury to remit the Estate Duty in respect of such art or science collections, etc., as might appear to the Treasury to be of national, historic, or scientific interest—[cries of "Go on!"]—and which were given or bequeathed for national purposes, or to a university, county council or municipal corporation. [Opposition cheers.] By that clause the richest of conceivable contributors was exempted from the Death Duties, namely, the State. By that clause, also, no such additional conditions were attached as were attached by the clause under discussion.
  MR. J. H. DALZIELthought the hon. Member had hardly shown his usual ingenuity. They always expected from him, especially on financial matters, some important contribution
  1496
  throwing fresh light on the subject; but the hon. Member had, he thought, referred to the worst possible instance from his own point of view. The section which the hon. Member had referred to had reference to exemption in the case of the proprietor of valuable possessions who was going to leave them to the State for the advantage of the people as a whole. If the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer would say that the State was going to benefit from these collections, no objection would be raised to the Government proposal. But the view taken by many hon. Members was, that whilst the State was going to give up this large amount of taxation, there was no assurance that the people were going to benefit in a corresponding degree. The right hon. Gentleman had taken up the position that it was impossible to frame a clause which would carry out the object that was in view, although he recognised that some such return as he suggested ought to be given in respect of the remission in taxation. If the right hon. Gentleman empowered the Treasury to determine what was and what was not a national possession, he would be throwing a very great responsibility upon them. In that case, the right hon. Gentleman ought to insert a provision that the Treasury should have reasonable facilities given them for investigating the matter. The right hon. Gentleman had objected that if he were to adopt that course he would be making the Act retrospective, but all he had to do was to say that the provision should not come into operation until the passing of the Act. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would admit the force of the arguments in favour of the Amendment, and would accept it. ["Hear, hear!"]
  *SIR JOHN LUBBOCKsaid that he was surprised that these collections should be regarded by hon. Members opposite as luxuries. They were not made without great expense and labour, and those who

  1497
  created them were public benefactors, because, most undoubtedly, they conferred a great benefit upon the community at large. He could not understand how it could be contended that scientific collections, which were often of great value and importance, were not of interest to the public, because they were of great use to persons who were studying the particular branches of science to which they belonged. Whoever had heard of persons making scientific collections merely for the purpose of shutting them up in drawers? It was the pride of such collectors to render their treasures available for the purposes of study, nor could it be denied that the owners of valuable pictures had been most generous in affording the public opportunities of seeing them. He thought it would be impossible to put words into a clause of an Act of Parliament which would cover all the circumstances of the case, and he thought they must trust that those who had made these collections would, from the same feeling that had induced them to make them, make it their pride and pleasure to make them accessible to the public in the future as they had in the past. ["Hear, hear!"]
  *THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid he had looked very carefully into this matter in accordance with the pledge he had given to the House, and he was as anxious as the right hon. Gentleman opposite or any hon. Gentleman could be that those who benefited by this clause should make some return to the country. But he had been entirely defeated by the extraordinary difference in the kind of articles that would come under the clause and the kind of circumstances in which their possessors would be placed. It would be very easy to lay down some definite regulations on which persons having large collections placed in special galleries should open those galleries for the advantage of the public. They did so now at comparatively very small
  1498
  inconvenience to themselves. But in the case of a man of moderate means, living in a house in London of no great size, and possessing only two or three family pictures of value, surely it would be intolerable to require of such a man that he should admit the public for two hours on six days of the week to view those pictures. ["Hear, hear!"] Obviously no one in such a position would avail himself of the clause, and Parliament would by that tyrannical act deprive a person it was especially desired to favour of the advantages of the clause. ["Hear, hear!"] Then there was the case of a person possessing valuable family manuscripts or books. Why should he admit the public to his library to inspect books and manuscripts about which the public in the ordinary sense would know nothing at all? There were obviously many cases in which the articles to which the clause would apply would be articles of public interest only if consulted by experts, and to admit the public might result in great injury to the articles themselves, while it would not be of the smallest advantage. Further, was this to be a prospective or retrospective provision? If retrospective, how in the world was the Treasury to find out whether admission had been given to the public? The thing would be impossible. Again, if it was to be prospective, was it fair to the possessors—not the possessors of galleries, for in this matter they had to deal with possessors of comparatively few articles of this kind, keeping them in their private houses—would it be fair to place a person owning articles of this kind in such a position that he might be invaded every day by some passing traveller? ["No!"] That would be a rod hanging over him. Anybody might say, "I understand you have this picture, and I claim to see it as one of the public, and if you do not give me the opportunity I shall complain to the Treasury." He had carefully considered the matter, and, looking to all these difficulties, he felt

  1499
  that if he attempted to lay down any provision which would be fair and not too harsh, he would really be proposing to Parliament to enact something which was very much less than was given to the public now voluntarily by the owners of great collections; he would be suggesting to such owners that they should diminish the facilities they now afforded, and would he doing much more harm than good. ["Hear, hear!"] Having in view the reasons for this clause, on which he had already, he thought, said enough, he trusted the House might not be disposed to embody in it a provision which might suggest to the owners of important collections to deprive the public of the advantage they now received, and which might in its operation be extremely hard to the very persons whom every person desired to benefit. ["Hear, hear!"]
  *SIR SAMUEL MONTAGUconsidered the right hon. Gentleman adduced no real argument against the desires expressed on the Opposition side of the House. He felt justified in saying a few words upon this subject because he originally proposed an Amendment to the Finance Bill of the last Government in order to exempt bequests to the nation from the Death Duties. He protested against the proposal of the present Government to exempt certain articles in private hands without any return whatsoever. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had mentioned the cases of those who possessed in London one or two pictures. There was a complete answer in such cases. No one expected them to admit the public to private houses. They could lend them to one of the various exhibitions which were always very willing to exhibit works of art which were of interest to the public. They had a very generous example in Her Majesty the Queen, who lent constantly to different exhibitions. It was really to prevent the selfishness of certain persons that they desired a general rule should
  1500
  be applied by which the Treasury could decide whether articles were of historic and artistic value. They could ascertain very readily whether they had been exhibited in galleries in London and the provinces. Nothing could be easier than to ascertain whether such articles had been exhibited, because records were always kept. It had been said that these exemptions would prevent works of art being sent out of the country. He did not believe that would be the effect. They had had heirlooms sold very frequently, before the introduction of the Finance Bill, or of anything of the present nature, and he believed they really imported more works of art from abroad than they exported. There was no danger of private houses being invaded, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had suggested, as there was nothing easier than for the owners of works of art to offer them to the galleries in London and the provinces. He should, therefore, vote against the clause.
  Mr. COURTENAY WARNERobserved that hon. Members did not desire private houses to be thrown open for two hours upon six days of the week or anything of that kind. What they were asking was that those collections which were valuable should be made accessible to students. The Treasury would be able to decide what inconvenience the owner was to be put to. The Museums or National Gallery should have lists of the most important of these works of art and collections, and they should be able to grant leave to students to go and see them at such times as the owners should decide. This clause was a proposal to remit a tax on private individuals who did absolutely nothing for the public. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would see his way to make some modification in the wording of the clause in the direction which had been suggested.
  Mr. EDWIN LAWRENCEsaid that private collections

  1501
  of rare and valuable books and works of of art were of great advantage to the country. In private establishments they were kept intact. In public museums they would probably be soon damaged.
  MR. J. W. LOGANsaid he did not think those who collected works of art from disinterested motives desired to escape their fare share of the taxation of the country. If collections, which were only of interest to students and not to the general public, went untaxed on that account, the poor people of this country would have to make up the deficiency. Works of art were collected for the pleasure derived from them, and because they did not yield any money income was no reason they should not be taxed. If any works of art were of national interest, then let the owners make them over to the nation. On behalf of the poor people of this country, he protested against the clause which taxed the poor for the benefit of the rich.
  MR. T. R. LEUTYsaid the proposal contained in the clause was part of what had been described as "a rich man's Budget," and it was the most indefensible and disgraceful part. The bulk of the money under the clause would go to those who had the most already. It was quite touching to see how unanimity spread over the benches opposite when the question was one of giving relief to those who had the most. Differences of opinion which were accentuated when it was an ecclesiastical or educational question, disappeared when it was a question of dipping into the public purse in order to give relief in due taxation to those who possessed the luxuries of life. It was said that the clause was intended to save some poor miserable owner from selling his picture. If a man were in such a state of poverty that he could not pay the duty, how could relief from the duty enable him to keep the picture? It was certain that a man in such circumstances would sell the picture.
  Question put, "That the words of Clause 20 down to the word 'and', in line 31, stand part of the Bill."
  The House divided:—Ayes, 213; Noes, 82.—(Division List, No. 332.)
  MR. DALZIELsaid that he did not intend to move an Amendment of which he had given notice, but he hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would give an assurance on the point just decided, and adjourn the Debate until to-morrow.
  *THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid that he understood it was the desire of the House to finish the Bill that evening. [Cheers and cries of "No."]
  *MR. B. L. COHEN*MR. B. L. COHEN (Islington, E.)> moved to omit from sub-section (1) the words:—
  "not, on the death of such deceased person, be aggregated with other property, but shall form an estate by itself, and while enjoyed in kind by a person not competent to dispose of the same, be exempt from Estate Duty, but if it is sold, or is in the possession of some person who is then competent to dispose of the same, shall become liable to Estate Duty,"
  and to insert, instead thereof, the words:—
  "On the death of such deceased person be valued and aggregated with the other property of the deceased person, but shall be exempt from Estate Duty while enjoyed in kind by a person not competent to dispose of the same, but if it is sold, or if it passes into the possession of some person who is then competent to dispose of the same, it shall become liable to Estate Duty at the same rate at which the other property of the estate of the deceased person was assessed."
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer would, the hon. Member said, see that this Amendment did not in any way interfere with the exemption from duty of works of art in the Bill, but was intended to come in aid of the Exchequer and to prevent the relief which the Bill afforded to those works of art from being extended to them in a manner he should think not anticipated by, and certainly not just to the Exchequer. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer cited the case of an estate of £1,000,000, of which £500,000 was in works of art and £500,000 in Consols. The effect of the Bill in such a case was not only to make a present to that estate of £40,000, but, in consideration of that present, it would make a further present of £5,000 out of the duty paid by Consols. That was a case so extreme that it would rarely arise. There were, however, at this moment a large number of estates of half-a-million to a million, and the number was increasing year by year, which

  1503
  included large collections of works of art, which answered to the description in the Bill. It was monstrous that those estates should have the duty which properly devolved upon them under the Finance Act of 1894 reduced simply because the owners of those valuable properties had thought fit to invest a fifth or a tenth of their fortunes in works of art for which they ought to pay duty at the full rate prescribed by the Finance Act of 1894. The only plea which could be urged against his Amendment was the hardship which it was alleged would result on small estates. But let him point out, in the first place, that the amount of difference on a small estate of £10,000 to £25,000, or £50,000, would be small, and, in the next place, there could not be a farthing difference at all unless the estate was just on the borderline fixed by the Finance Act of 1894. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was giving away money which he could never recover. The large estates did not ask for it, and he believed they would be the first to realise they were not entitled to it.
  SIR W. HARCOURTsaid it seemed to him that the Amendment was a most reasonable one. As the hon. Member had pointed out, they had already made the man of great fortune a present of £40,000 in respect of one part of his fortune, and as to the rest of his fortune they proposed to put that on a lower scale. A more monstrous injustice than that it was impossible to conceive, and he felt sure that when it came to be understood it would be universally condemned. They were now dealing with the very wealthy, and the Government proposed to give them an exemption which could not be defended on the ground of the character of the property. When they came to deal with the residue of the fortunes of those rich men and then found they were giving them a special exemption merely on the ground that they had property which was after all, property of luxury, it would be regarded as one of the most indefensible financial propositions it was possible to make—a proposition which, when it came to be worked out in practice, and when it was seen what were the character of the fortunes which had enjoyed this exemption from the taxation which fell upon other people, would be so universally
  1504
  condemned that an Amendment of it would become absolutely necessary. The hon. Member opposite had said very truly that it would not at all affect the people who had got less than £25,000, but in those other cases, where a man had a picture or historial ornament of some kind or other, it was quite enough in his opinion, to exempt him from payment of that article. To say, however, that the possession of that article was to affect his taxation upon the whole of the rest of his worldly possessions seemed to him to be a monstrous exaggeration of the principle of this clause. He hoped the Government, in the interests of the clause itself, would accept the Amendment.
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir RICHARD WEBSTER,)said his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated, when he was dealing with the clause itself—as to which the right hon. Gentleman opposite expressed his sympathy—that, from his information, he did not think the reduction which would result from this clause was likely to be a large one, but that if it should be shown by experience that the great estates would be those which would escape duty by virtue of its provisions, obviously it was a matter that would have to be considered. He would respectfully submit that it was not the great estates which would be dealt with unfairly if this Amendment were not carried. The right hon. Gentleman opposite was aware that taxation did not increase above the 8 per cent. upon £1,000,000 and over; and, therefore, the suggestion that £30,000 or £40,000 or some such sum would go to the millionaire if this Amendment were not adopted was, he thought, one which would not bear the test of investigation. If this Amendment were adopted, not only would there be the greatest practical difficulty in working the matter, but what was, to his mind, much more important, a great injustice would be done. It was, no doubt, the fact that in the case of fortunes between £25,000 and £50,000 and £75,000, the possession of a work of art might change the tax from one class to another. It would be unjust to put an additional tax on a man's property because of the fictitious value added to that property by virtue of his possession of a work of

  1505
  art, after the House had already to exempt such articles from taxation. The Amendment, if adopted, would create great difficulty, having regard to the decision the House had previously come to, and in those circumstances they had no right to treat this kind of property as taxable for the purposes of aggregation.
  MR. HENRY LABOUCHEREsaid that the Attorney General had put forward matters as great difficulties which were not difficulties to anyone but a lawyer. [Laughter.] The hon. and learned Gentleman had spoken about millionaires, but there was some misapprehension as to what a millionaire really was. It seemed to be supposed that he was a man who possessed so many hundreds of thousands of pounds; but that was an error. A "millionaire" did not mean anything of the kind. "Millionaire" was a French and not an English word, and it really meant a man who had a million francs. [Laughter, and cries of "Only £40,000."] That was to say £40,000. He and his friends would most undoubtedly make it their business to get this decision of the Government reversed. They would go to the country. [Ironical cheers.] What were they there for? They had opinions and they wished the country to hold the same views. They would point to the Rothschilds and the Duke of Westminster and show what advantages they got under this Bill. The Attorney General was still more astounding when he came to speak about small estates, for, he said, if a man had £25,000 in Consols or in anything else, and £10,000 in a picture, it would be cruel to make him sell the picture. He thought the man would be a perfect fool if he did not sell it. He always regarded Charles Surface as a most sensible man in selling his ancestors. He had no ancestors to sell, but if he had he would sell them at once. In his opinion in the case cited by the hon. and learned Gentleman the man ought to pay on the £35,000. His blood boiled—[laughter]—he did not know whether it was owing to the introduction of this Bill or the heat of the weather, but his blood really did boil. [Renewed laughter.] He was not using a figure of speech. He was perfectly shocked at the way in which, when an intelligent Member opposite proposed a reasonable Amendment, the Attorney
  1506
  General was put up to defend the Bill against his own follower. He congratulated the hon. Gentleman upon saying that nobody opposite wanted to protect large estates, he always thought that some of them did, but he was glad to find that they did not. The Opposition wanted justice to be done in regard to both large and small estates. They were not desirous, on his side of the House, that the rich man should be deprived of his property; but they were desirous that he should pay his fair share of taxation.
  *SIR JOHN LUBBOCKsaid that the supporters of the Amendment seemed to think only of the interests of the Treasury or of the owners, and to forget those of art and science. They wished to encourage the formation of collections, and he was sure that all those who had the interests of science and art at heart would thank the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the step he had taken.
  *MR. GIBSON BOWLESdesired to point out that the interests of millionaires would not be affected by this clause. Their estates would pay eight per cent. in any case. It did not exempt from taxation the kind of property to which it referred; it only postponed the payment of duty until the property passed into the hands of a person competent to sell it. The right hon. Member for West Monmouthshire declared that it was a monstrous doctrine that the rate of taxation to which a property was to be subject should be affected by the possession of a picture or other valuable object. And yet that doctrine was the foundation of the right hon. Gentleman's own Finance Act! His sympathies were not on the side of the millionaire, but on the side of unfortunate people like Mrs. Cox, the Herefordshire washerwoman, who had to pay £5 on her miserable tumble-down cottage, because another cottage was left to somebody else, and because the value of the two cottages taken together was over £100. The right hon. Gentleman could not logically object to a principle which he had himself introduced in an Act of Parliament. What was proposed in this clause was that certain property should be segregated. There was nothing new in that proposal, for there were at least seven instances of it in the Finance Act of 1894. One

  1507
  instance was the case of property given to the nation, and another the case of the Indian pension. It was a little late to complain of the principle embodied in this clause, and he could see in the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman a great deal of difficult work for the Revenue for which there was no justification.
  MR. LEUTY, who spoke amid cries of "Divide," said the Government did not care two straws about the case of Mrs. Cox which was referred to by the hon. Member for King's Lynn, all they cared for was the putting down of an Amendment of this character. The right hon. Member for the University of London said that the care on the opposite side of the House was for art and science, but what had that to do with this Amendment? It was not a question of exempting the value of these art treasures. The best thing to do with this miserable kind of legislation was to get it out of the way as quickly as possible, and then at any rate they would be spared the sight of members of the well-to-do classes brought down to the House from their rides in Hyde Park in the afternoon to parade their fictitious rags in order to obtain the commiseration and doles of the House.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
  The House divided;—Ayes, 170; Noes, 55.—(Division List, No. 333.)
  Clause 25,—

  INCOME TAX.—RATE OF FOR 1896–7.
  Income Tax for the year beginning on the 6th day of April one thousand eight hundred and ninety-six, shall be charged at the rate of eightpence.
  *MR. HERBERT LEWIS*MR. HERBERT LEWIS (Flint Boroughs) moved after the word "charged" to insert the words—
  "in the case of incomes under £500 a year at the rate of 4d., between £500 and £750 a year at the rate of 6d., between £750 and £1,000 a year."
  He observed that the question of the graduation of the Income Tax was one which had been frequently before the House in the past few years, and the importance of the subject was his justification for now bringing it forward. The principle of graduation had been
  1508
  definitely and finally accepted on both sides of the House, and it was now established as part of our fiscal system. As the Leader of the Opposition, when Chancellor of the Exchequer, said, the difficulties that lay in the way were of an administrative and practical nature. The right hon. Gentleman said in Committee it would be difficult for a man to make a statement as to the aggregate of his income. He could not see the difficulty. Surely there was nothing on which a man could have completer information than the amount he received every year. Having regard to the principle involved and of the acceptance in a large measure of that principle, the House was entitled to know exactly from the right hon. Gentleman what difficulties were in the way of the adoption of that principle. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not raise any unnecessary difficulty in the way, because the reform would be welcomed by the largest section of the taxpayers. He had no fault to find with the way the Chancellor of the Exchequer approached the question when the matter was in Committee. The right hon. Gentleman had said there was a good deal to be said for and against the graduation of the Income Tax. If there were disadvantages attending the operation of the scheme he would ask the right hon. Gentleman to put the advantages against the disadvantages and he would find that the advantages outweighed the disadvantages.
  *THE CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUERsaid that he understood the hon. Gentleman to move this Amendment in order to raise the question with which it was connected. But if the system suggested by the Amendment were adopted, graduation would have to begin at a higher point and be raised to a higher amount in the pound. His great fear in this matter was that any change of the kind—and it would be a great change—in our Income-Tax system would tend to evasion in regard to the larger incomes. Through the law relating to the Death Duties, they were able to obtain a more or less correct indication of what a man's whole property was. But it would be difficult to ascertain all the sources from which the income of a very rich man was derived. He might have money

  1509
  invested in many ways in all parts of the world. And although, with regard to a certain class of investments the officers of Inland Revenue might trace them, the result would be this anomaly—that where a man had all his eggs in one basket he would almost certainly be taxed at a higher rate than a man of the same means whose investments were manifold. However, he had already undertaken to examine into the matter.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSthought it was important that these matters should be brought up year after year, because some day a graduated Income Tax must be established. There was no reason why the Income Tax should not be collected at the fountain head, from the large companies. If the highest scale of Income Tax was 1s., why not charge all investments at that rate, and leave it to the individual taxpayer to claim any abatement. This was already done in reference to the great banking and railway companies. He hoped the Amendment would be pressed to a division.
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
  The House divided:—Ayes, 34; Noes, 134—(Division List, No. 334.)
  Clause 26,—

  APPLICATION OF INCOME TAX ACTS.
  (1.) Where this or any other Act enacts that income tax shall be charged in any year at any rate, there shall be charged, levied, and paid during that year in respect of all property, profits, and gains respectively described or comprised in the several Schedules A, B, C, D, and E in the Income Tax Act, 1853, the tax at that rate:
  for every twenty shillings of the annual value or amount of property, profits, and gains chargeable under Schedules A, C, D, or E in the said Act; and
  for every twenty shillings of one third of the annual value of lands, tenements, hereditaments, and heritages chargeable under Schedule B in the said Act in respect of the occupation thereof.
  (2.) The deduction of one-eighth out of the duties chargeable under Schedule B shall cease.
  (3.) All enactments relating to income tax which are for the time being in force shall apply to the duties of income tax from time to time granted by any Act, so far as the same are consistent with that Act.
  MR. HEYWOOD JOHNSTONE MR. HEYWOOD JOHNSTONE (Sussex, Horsham) moved to omit Sub-section
  1510
  (2) of Clause 26. He drew the attention of the House to the change in the wording of the Finance Act of 1895 and of 1894, and of the Income Tax Act, and though it might appear at first sight that there was an advantage in the present form, that advantage disappeared when they took away the allowance of one-eighth which had hitherto been enjoyed. The moment that this allowance was taken away the beam went the other way, and the alteration of the Act was not in favour of the taxpayer, but against him. He did not think it was the intention of the Government, in changing this well-known old established form of words, to do a disadvantage to the agricultural taxpayer. They had shown their desire to consult his welfare during the present Session, but the effect of the alteration was to place him at a disadvantage. He asked the Government to let them know that night what were the real grounds for the alteration in their Finance Act. Land was assessed under Schedule B at a higher rate than under Schedule A; and, if they took the taxation of land under the Bill at one-third of the present assessment under Schedule B, the amount would be higher than the present assessment of one-third under Schedule A. He thought the Government could easily meet the difficulty in the way he had suggested; but if they did not see their way to do so, he should be content if it was arranged that land under Schedule B should be assessed at the same amount as the one - third assessment under Schedule A.
  *THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid he could not detain the House at that late hour by fully explaining the matter in detail—["hear, hear!"]—but he assured the hon. Member that the clause as it stood was to the advantage of the taxpayer. As had been stated, an alteration was made in 1894–5, when his predecessor, at the request of a large number of hon. Members representing agricultural districts, lowered the rate of the Income Tax under Schedule B in England. What the Government now proposed to do by the clause in question was to place all three countries with regard to Schedule B on the same footing of one-third of the assessment under Schedule A, and the proposal would be

  1511
  to the advantage of the payers of Income Tax under the former schedule, while at the same time the arrangement would simplify the law. If the sub-section was struck out, the result would be that an injustice would be inflicted on Scotland and Ireland; and, in these circumstances, he hoped the Amendment would not be pressed.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 31,—

  LAND TAX.—REMISSION OF LAND TAX IN EXCESS OF ONE SHILLING IN THE POUND.
  (1.) The amount assessed in any year in any Land Tax parish on account of the unredeemed quota of Land Tax charged against that; parish shall not after the passing of this Act exceed the amount which would be produced by a rate of one shilling in the pound on the annual value of the land in the parish subject to Land Tax, and any excess above the said amount shall he remitted for that year.
  (2.) Sections one hundred and eighty and one hundred and eighty-one of the Land Tax Act, 1802, shall be construed as if the rate of one shilling in the pound on the annual value of the land were substituted for the rate of four shillings therein mentioned.
  MR. W. JONES, on behalf of Mr. DALZIEL, moved to omit Clause 31.
  Question proposed, "That Clause 31 stand part of the Bill."
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER moved, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
  Debate adjourned till to-morrow.

  LIGHT RAILWAYS BILL.
  Third Reading deferred till to-morrow.
  MILITARY LANDS ACT (1892) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Adjourned Debate on Second Reading [15th May] further adjourned till tomorrow.
  UGANDA RAILWAY BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.
  NAVAL RESERVE BILL.
  Committee deferred till Monday next.
  MILITARY WORKS [MONEY].
  Committee thereupon deferred till Tomorrow.
  RAILWAY ASSESSORS (SCOTLAND) SUPERANNUATION BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.
  LABOURERS (IRELAND) BILL.
  Consideration, as amended (by the Standing Committee) deferred till Thursday.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (ALDERSHOT AND FARNBOROUGH) BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.
  PUBLIC HEALTH (SCOTLAND) (No. 2) BILL [H.L.]
  Second Reading deferred till Thursday.
  HOUSING OF THE WORKING CLASSES (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
  Second Reading deferred till Thursday.
  RAILWAYS (IRELAND) BILL.
  Read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee on Trade, Etc.
  LAW AGENTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Third Reading deferred till Tomorrow.
  BENEFICES BILL.
  Further Proceeding on Consideration, as amended (by the Standing Committee) deferred till To-morrow.
  LETTING OF SPORTING RIGHTS BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.
  SPURIOUS SPORTS BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.
  CRIMINAL LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.

  LOCAL AUTHORITIES (SCOTLAND) LOANS BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Monday next.
  House adjourned at Ten minutes before Two o'clock.