Commons Sitting of 5 July 1895

Preamble
The House met at Three of the Clock.

EDUCATION ENDOWMENTS (IRELAND) (LIMERICK DIOCESAN SCHOOLS).
THE VICE CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSEHOLD (Mr. CHARLES R. SPENCER)reported Her Majesty's Answer to the humble Address of the 20th May last, as followeth:—
"I have received your Address praying that I will withhold My consent from so much of Paragraph 6 of Scheme 90, framed by the Educational Endowments (Ireland) Commissioners, relating to the Limerick Diocesan Schools Endowments, as provides for the conveyance and release by the Commissioners of all their estate and interest in the lands, buildings, and premises described in the First Schedule thereto, Part IV., subject as therein to the Rev. James Fitzgerald Gregg on the notice and payments therein set forth by him to the Commissioners in that behalf to be given and made; and disapprove of that part of said scheme which makes the default by the said Rev. James Fitzgerald Gregg in giving said notice or making said payments within certain times therein set forth, a condition precedent to the Commissioners putting up for sale by public auction and selling it to the best advantage all their estate and interest in the said premises subject as aforesaid, and conveying same to the purchaser thereof; and disapprove of any part of the said Scheme which, if retained therein, will operate to compel or allow the Commissioners to take any course with regard to the said premises other than to put up for sale and sell to the best advantage all their estate and interest therein, and convey same subject as aforesaid to the purchaser thereof. I will comply with your advice."

LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (TOWER BRIDGE SOUTHERN APPROACH) BILL.
Lords Amendments agreed to.

PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 7) BILL,
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 10) BILL,
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 16) BILL,
As amended, considered; read 3°, and Passed.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 21) BILL.
Read 2°, and committed.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 15) (SALFORD) BILL.
Reported, with Amendments; Title amended; [Provisional Order relating to Salford not proceeded with; remaining Orders confirmed]; costs awarded;
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Bill, as amended, considered; read 3°, and Passed.

TRAMWAYS PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Orders confirmed];
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Bill, as amended, considered; read 3°, and Passed.

ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 5) BILL [H.L.]
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]; read 3°, and Passed.
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 6) BILL [H.L.]
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed]; read 3°, and Passed.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 5) BILL,
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 6) BILL,
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 9) BILL,
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 13) BILL,
Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.

KITCHEN AND REFRESHMENT ROOMS (HOUSE OF COMMONS).
Leave given to the Select Committee on the Kitchen and Refreshment Rooms (House of Commons) to report their Observations to the House.—(Mr. Leveson Gower.)
Second Report, with Observations, brought up, and read.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 385.]

POLICE AND SANITARY REGULATIONS BILLS.
Special Report brought up, and read;
Special Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of Proceedings to be printed. [No. 386.]

POST OFFICE SAVINGS BANKS.
Return [presented 4th July] to be printed. [No. 387.]
LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (PORT AND RIPARIAN SANITARY SURVEY).
Copy presented—of Reports and Papers on the Port and Riparian Sanitary Survey of England and Wales, 1893–4, with an Introduction by the Medical Officer of the Local Government Board [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT (TRAINING COLLEGES).
Copies presented of Reports and Statistics for the year 1894, &c. [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT (GENERAL REPORTS).
Copies presented of Reports of the Chief Inspectors of the Eastern, North Eastern, North Central, South Western, and Welsh Divisions for the year 1894 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
EDUCATION DEPARTMENT (UNIVER SITY COLLEGES.)
Copies presented of Reports from University Colleges participating, in accordance with the Treasury Minute dated 1st July 1889, in the Grant of £15,000 made by Parliament for University Colleges in Great Britain [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
EDUCATION (SCOTLAND).
Copy presented of Report of the Committee of Council on Education in Scotland, with Appendix, for 1894–5 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
EDUCATION (SCIENCE AND ART DEPARTMENT).
Copy presented of Return showing the manner in which and the extent to which Local Authorities in England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland are applying funds to the purposes of Technical Education (including Science, Art, Technical and Manual Instruction) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
EDUCATION (SCIENCE AND ART DEPARTMENT).
Copy presented of Calendar, History, and General Summary of Regulations of the Department of Science and Art for the year 1896 (with Tables) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
QUEEN'S COLLEGE (CORK).
Copy presented of Report of the President of Queen's College, Cork, for the Session 1894–5, with Appendices [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (IRELAND).
Copy presented of Annual Report for the year ended 31st March 1895, with Appendices [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
PARLIAMENTARY ELECTORS IN COUNTIES (SCOTLAND).
Return presented relative thereto [ordered 20th May; Sir George Trevelyan]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 388.]
PARLIAMENTARY ELECTORS IN BURGHS (SCOTLAND).
Return presented relative thereto [ordered 20th May; Sir George Trevelyan]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 389.]
ISLE OF MAN.
Account presented of Revenue and Expenditure for the year ended 31st March 1895, with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 390.]
UNIVERSITY OF ABERDEEN.
Copy presented of Abstract of Accounts of the University of Aberdeen for the year ending 15th September 1894 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 391.]
CHARITABLE ENDOWMENTS (LONDON).
Paper laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House: Further Return relative thereto [ordered 2nd August 1894; Mr. Francis Stevenson]; to be printed. [No. 392.]

TRAMWAYS (STREET AND ROAD).
Return ordered—
"Of Street and Road Tramways authorised by Parliament, showing the amount of Capital authorised, paid up, and expended; the length of Tramway authorised, and the length open for the public conveyance of passengers, down to the 30th day of June 1895; the gross receipts, working expenditure, and net receipts; the number of passengers conveyed; and the number of miles run by cars during the year ending the 30th day of June 1895; together with the number of horses, engines, and cars at that date (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 270, of Session 1894)."—(Mr. Hanbury.)
Copy presented accordingly; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 393.]

NEW MEMBER SWORN.
Right Honourable Charles Thompson Ritchie, for the Borough of Croydon, on his re-election, after acceptance of the Office of President of the Board of Trade.
QUESTIONS.

  DELAGOA BAY ARBITRATION.
  MR. STAVELEY HILL: On behalf of the hon. Member for Tower Hamlets, Stepney (Mr. Wootton Isaacson), I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs—(1) whether Her Majesty's Government is aware that the Delagoa Bay Arbitration Tribunal has again postponed pronouncing sentence for ten weeks; (2) whether they are aware it is reported that the Government of the South African Republic is negotiating with that of Portugal for the purchase of the line; and (3) whether they will take steps to ensure that no properties affected by the arbitration shall be disposed of either publicly or privately before the tribunal has pronounced its sentence, so that all the properties sequestrated may remain at the entire disposal of the bondholders in case the sentence should be given in their favour?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. GEORGE CUHZOX,): By a decision dated the 3rd of June the Court of Arbitration has fixed a period of one month for the filing by each party of a summary, as short as possible, of the points of law and fact on which they base their conclusions; and a period of six weeks for delivery of schedules of the documents comprised in the written cases, the authenticity of which is challenged by either side, and for the enumeration of the points on which it is desired to take oral evidence or the opinion of experts. Both periods are to commence from the 15th of June, the day on which the decision was communicated officially to the British, United States, and Portuguese Legations at Berne. With regard to the last two paragraphs of the question, Her Majesty's Government have no knowledge that such negotiations are in progress. They would be inconsistent with assurances which we have received from Portugal that, until the Award is given, no steps whatever will be taken which will affect the future of the railway.

  INCOME TAX.
  MR. WILSON LLOYD: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, if, in the Finance Accounts, Revenue, the accounts arising from the Income Tax, under Schedule D, embracing professions and trades, could be divided into three sections, showing the amounts—firstly, from manufactures and industrial occupations; secondly, from professions; and thirdly, from distribution, with the object of showing if our industries are progressing or otherwise?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH,): I am obliged to my hon. Friend for his suggestion, and I will take care that it shall be considered. Of course, in these matters, one has to place the expense and trouble of additional returns against the advantage that may arise from them, and to take care to avoid, also, anything interfering with secrecy.
  MR. WILSON LLOYDasked whether one schedule did not descend to the lower figure of £253,000, whereas in the other there was over £8,000,000.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I will look into the matter.
  SIR RICHARD PAGETasked whether the right hon. Gentleman would also consider the advantage of setting out the amounts derived from realty and personalty respectively.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I think that will hardly apply to the question of my hon. Friend below the Gangway.

  TIPTON RIFLE RANGE ACCIDENT.
  MR. WILSON LLOYD: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War, if the War Office will recommend that a gratuity of £60 be paid by Her Majesty's Government to Mr. Henn towards his expenses arising from the accident which occurred on the 9th June 1894, to his son, who was standing at his house door, by a stray bullet from the rifle range near Tipton, which caused his death; and whether he is aware that Mr. Henn's house is almost in a direct line behind the rifle range, and that,
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  since the accident on 9th June, 1894, many bullet marks have been found on Mr. Henn's house.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (MR. BRODRICK,): Volunteer battalions are held primarily responsible for claims arising out of accidents such as that referred to, and in cases where there has been no negligence on the part of, and no blame attaches to the corps, it is reimbursed any legitimate expenditure it may necessarily incur. If the corps has not already discharged the claim which was made on it last year by Mr. Henn it will be instructed to do so. The house is not quite in a direct line of fire. The range was closed after the accident and consequently the house has not since been examined for bullet marks.
  MR. WILSON LLOYDinquired whether that would give to Mr. Henn power to claim some compensation for loss.
  MR. BRODRICK: Yes, Sir. The expenses will be paid by the Volunteer corps, and, if there has been no negligence, they will be reimbursed by the War Office.

  PERSONAL CLERKS IN CIVIL SERVICE.
  MR. HENRY KIMBER: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether the allowance made in a lump sum to the Head of a Department to enable him to obtain copying or clerical assistance in accordance with the provisions of the Treasury Minute of 10th August 1889 (paragraphs 24, 25, and 26), is intended to be applied in the employment of persons at a higher rate of pay than that formerly paid to the old class of temporary copyists, or on work of a more important character than that formerly performed by that class; whether the allowance of £1,300 (Bankruptcy), and £1,200 (Companies (Winding-up), entered in the Civil Service Estimates (page 119) as required by the Inspector General in Bankruptcy for clerical assistance for the year 1895–96, will be applied in the employment of persons receiving a higher rate of pay than 35s. a week; whether one personal clerk employed temporarily under these regulations in the office of the Inspector General in Bankruptcy is paid a salary of £400 a year

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  out of this allowance, and another personal clerk is also employed in the same office at a salary of £150 a year, payable out of the same allowance; whether any other personal clerks, employed under these regulations and paid out of an allowance for clerical assistance of the character referred to in the aforesaid Treasury Minute, are employed in any other Government Department at a higher rate of pay or salary than 35s. weekly; and, if so, whether the right hon. Gentleman would have any objection to have a Return of such employments, with the rate of pay or salary assigned to each post, placed upon the Table of the House; whether these appointments are in the patronage of the head of the Department; and whether the personal clerks so appointed undergo any examination at the hands of the Civil Service Commissioners?
  *THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. R. W. HANBURY,): The paragraphs of the Treasury Minute referred to apply only to copyists. The higher appointments referred to are made by arrangement between the Treasury and the Departments concerned, under the authority of the Order in Council, dated June 4th, 1870. Such lump sum allowances as are referred to are not necessarily confined to purely copying and routine work. The two sums allowed to the Inspector General in Bankruptcy are not confined to such services. The distribution of such an allowance, when the total allowance of the amount has been fixed, has been left to the discretion of the head of the Department, and the Treasury have not hitherto interfered with it; and, therefore, I have no official information as to the details. I am unable on such short notice to say whether the suggested Return could be given, without communicating with the Board of Trade and other Departments concerned; but I will gladly make further inquiry. Persons so employed are selected by the head of the Department, and without any examination by the Civil Service Commissioners.

  SITTING OF THE HOUSE (SATUEDAY.)
  Resolved, "That this House do meet To-morrow, at Half-past Ten of the clock a.m."—(First Lord of the Treasury.)
  CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIA TION) BILL.
  Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; to be read the third time To-morrow.

  EXTRADITION BILL. [H.L.]
  Considered in Committee.
  Mr. MELLOR in the Chair.
  (In the Committee.)
  SIR EDWARD REED SIR EDWARD REED (Cardiff) moved to insert the words:—
  "Clause 1, page 1, line 16, after 'is,' insert 'and at the request and with the consent of the criminal, made or given in writing, the order may, if the Secretary of State is of opinion that that course is necessary to avoid danger or injury to the health of the criminal, permit the case to be heard by the magistrate in the absence of the criminal.'"
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,)said that, as far as he was able to form an opinion, he saw no objection to the proposed Amendment; but he might mention that he had been informed by a high legal authority in the House of Lords that their Lordships might take a different view of the situation. If so, the Bill would be lost, and if the hon. Member insisted on moving his Amendment, the hon. Member must take the risk of that.
  MR. H. H. ASQUITHsaid, there was certainly a difference of opinion as to this provision, which, though undoubtedly a novel one, safeguarded as it was here, could not, he thought, do much harm. As, however, his hon. Friend had been told that the Bill might be lost altogether if he persisted in pressing his Amendment, his hon. Friend might find that, in his attempt to make the measure more perfect, he might lose it altogether, and he ought to weigh well the responsibility he was incurring.
  SIR EDWARD REEDsaid, that he gave full weight to that consideration, but it was balanced by the future consideration that the Bill could be of no use without the Amendment in the particular case that it was designed to meet. He was aware of the peculiar nature of the proposal he was putting forward. He would ask the First Lord of the

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  Treasury, if the Amendment were now inserted and if the Bill should be thrown out by the House of Lords, whether the Government would give a pledge that on the reassembling of the new Parliament they would take the whole case into their consideration and see what could be done; because he thought that, circumstanced as they were at this moment, it was desirable to make provision for cases of this nature.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURYsaid, that he did not know on which side of the House he might be sitting in the next Parliament. But whoever might be sitting on the Treasury Bench when the next Parliament reassembled would probably feel very little energy or desire to get through more than the necessary financial business. The hon. Member seemed to look at this Bill as a measure for the relief of one particular individual, but it was not from that point of view that it should, he thought, be regarded. He looked upon the Bill as effecting a desirable Amendment in the present law, which required that these accused persons should only be tried at Bow-street, although they might live at the other end of the kingdom.
  SIR EDWARD REEDsaid, he thought the point was not an unreasonable one, and that it was one which was sure to receive the attention of the right hon. Gentleman.
  MR. HENRY LABOUCHEREsaid, the Bill itself was a reasonable one, for it simply proposed that the case should be heard in a county town as well as in London. That was no new principle, but there was the point of hearing a criminal charge in the absence of the criminal. At that late period of the Session he did not think that this Amendment ought to be allowed.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURYsaid, it appeared there was some feeling in the matter, and therefore he could not accept the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Bill reported without Amendment; read 3°, and Passed, without Amendment.

  JUDICIAL COMMITTEE AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
  Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; read 3°, and Passed, without Amendment.

  NATURALISATION (RESIDENCE ABROAD) BILL [H.L.]
  Read 2°.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURYsaid, as the Bill was one to which no objection was taken, he hoped the House would allow it to pass through its remaining stages.
  Bill committed: considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; read 3°, and Passed, without Amendment.

  FIRES (FALSE ALARMS) BILL.
  Lords Amendments to be considered forthwith; considered, and agreed to.

  RETIRED SOLDIERS AND SAILORS (EMPLOYMENT).
  Message from the Lords, That they request that this House will be pleased to communicate to their Lordships a Copy of the Report, &c., of the Select Committee appointed by this House in the present Session of Parliament on Retired Soldiers and Sailors (Employment).
  Printed Copy to be communicated.

  ROYAL PATRIOTIC FUND.
  That they request that this House will be pleased to communicate to their Lordships a Copy of the Report, &c., of the Select Committee appointed by this House in the present Session of Parliament on the Royal Patriotic Fund.
  Printed Copy to be communicated.

  ADJOURNMENT.
  Motion made, and Question, "That this House do now adjourn,"—(First Lord of the Treasury)—put, and agreed to.
  House adjourned accordingly at Four o'clock.