Commons Sitting of 22 February 1895

Preamble
The House met at Three of the Clock.
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  LAMBETH WATER (TRANSFER) BILL.
  MR. J. STUARTmoved: "That this Bill be read a second time."
  The hon. Member said the Bill provided for the purchase of the undertaking
  1374
  of the Lambeth Waterworks Company by agreement or, failing that, by arbitration, the arbitrator to take into consideration all the circumstances of the case. He would not stop to argue that it was necessary or desirable that a community should possess the control of its own water supply; the time was now passed when such a point needed to be argued. The opinions that had been expressed by the right hon. Member for West Birmingham and others, rendered it unnecessary to say anything in support of the general proposition. The London County Council had been practically obliged to bring in this Bill, and the other eight water Bills they had introduced in consequence of the opinions expressed by important Committees of this House. The growth of the views of these Committees was remarkable, and they had advanced steadily in one direction. The Duke of Richmond's Commission, in 1869, reported that the future control of the water supply of the Metropolis should be entrusted to a responsible public body, with powers conferred on them for the purchase or the extension of the existing works. In 1880 there was a Select Committee, presided over by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer; that went a step further than the Commission, and reported that it was expedient that the supply of water to the Metropolis should be placed under the control of some public body which should represent the interests and command the confidence of the water consumers. In 1891 there was another Committee, presided over by a gentleman whose position on the Committees of the House was of undisputed pre-eminence, the hon. Member for Blackpool (Sir M. White Ridley); and that Committee reported that the London County Council was the body to whom the duty named should be entrusted. They recommended that the London County Council, as the responsible municipal authority of London, should have power to inquire into the whole position of the metropolitan water supply and to come to a conclusion as to the policy which, for financial and other reasons, it was desirable to adopt, and, if it were so resolved, that they should have power to promote a Bill or Bills for the purpose of constituting themselves the responsible water authority,

  1375
  and further that the London County Council, if it were the constituted water authority, should be required to purchase, either alone or in conjunction with such authorities in outside areas as might enter into arrangements with them, the undertakings of the eight water companies by agreement, or, failing agreement, by arbitration within a fixed period. It was to be observed that this report was made after the consideration of a suggested water trust, one of the alternatives which had been much pressed upon the public; and the proposal of a water trust was condemned by that important Committee. Further it was stated in the Report that in doing this the London County Council should take over the duties and obligations of the outside authorities to the consumers of water, and then it proceeded to lay down the conditions of dealing with the outside authorities of the counties round about London embodied in the present Bill. In the 1888 Committee, three alternatives were proposed, the alternative of strict regulation of the water companies, of an independent supply and purchase of such of the companies as could be got on fair and reasonable terms. Many papers and documents dealing with the Bill had been circulated in the House. The objection to these Bills seemed to lie in two directions. Firstly, it was said the County Council were about to ruin the debenture-holders; and secondly, that they proposed to confiscate the property of the shareholders. With regard to the debenture-holders, the Bill proposed that their security upon the undertaking should remain. It was said that the water companies had a property worth many millions, yielding a net income divisible at present of a million a year, and that the County Council representing a great and wealthy community would play such ducks and drakes with the property that it would not be able to meet even the £100,000 a year interest on the debentures. He really thought that went beyond the limit of reasonable argument. The County Council would have to reckon with the ratepayers of London long before anything like that came about. As to confiscating the property of the shareholders it was stated in the Press, and in the documents he had referred to, that the County
  1376
  Council were about to propose an arbitration in which every point that went against the companies would be taken account of, and nothing which was to their advantage would go before the arbitrator. That was an utter misrepresentation of the facts. The Bill provided that the arbitrator should consider what, having regard to all the circumstances of the case, was a fair and reasonable price. He wished now to put before the House the origin of the various proposals to be submitted to the arbitrator. They had not emanated from the brain of the London County Council. With one exception, they were all subjects regarded as necessary for consideration in connection with the purchase of the companies by the Committee of the House itself and the Royal Commission which had recently sat. There was the state of the filtration works of the various companies, and the Committee of 1891 said that, should it be impossible to carry out a purchase, it would be necessary to consider what further obligations and further control should be put on these companies, and the County Council were prepared to consider these specific points at the arbitration. The competing powers of the various companies would be taken into account in assessing their value. Lord Eldon, one of the highest authorities on the subject, speaking in the House of Lords, once said—
  "If the object of the Legislature in passing the different Bills for the supply of water in the Metropolis—which may not be supposed to have been that of competition—have been defeated by the different companies joining together to establish a monopoly, I hope your Lordships will not separate without its being distinctly understood that it is perfectly within the competence of Parliament to set that right."
  One of the documents relating to the Bill which had been circulated in the House, said that—
  "instead of settling the question of water supply, it appears that the County Council contemplate asking Parliament in another Session to sanction an entirely now and costly scheme."
  The companies themselves admitted that large additional works were necessary for the supply of London, and, therefore, by purchasing the works of the present companies, they could not finally settle the London water question. The additional supply of water required, and the bearing of the matter upon the

  1377
  position of the companies was one of the chief subjects the Parliamentary Committee would have to consider. The great point was, where should they obtain the additional supply, and who should bring it to London? But the purchase of the companies on fair and reasonable terms was an essential preliminary to any proper solution of the question of additional water supply. It was said that they were going to destroy the value of these companies. The arbitration would necessarily be a long and difficult subject, but from the day when it was determined that any company should sell, and that the County Council should buy, the latter would become responsible, and, as the proprietors of the company, would be bound to pay and to continue to pay half-yearly to the shareholders their present dividends. They would take over all the obligations of the company. If the London County Council or any other public representative body were capable after acquiring such undertakings of destroying their value, they would be condemnable in the extreme, and unworthy of being treated with by the House. If this Bill passed its second reading they should go on with the Southwark and Vauxhall Water Bill, because these two Bills stood very much in the same category. They were not making a grab at the most valuable property; on the contrary, they were endeavouring to purchase on fair and reasonable terms the two companies which it was most in the public interest should be purchased. These two companies taken together made the lowest dividend of any of the companies. They were in the worst condition as to their sources of supply, their filtration, and works. They would be bound, if not dealt with by a public authority, to come themselves to the House for very large and extended powers at a very early date. They were the companies about which there had been most dispute as to propriety of their charges, and they charged the highest sums to the ratepayers. Under those circumstances they felt it was their duty, as representing the public in this matter, to deal with these companies first. Many of the companies, like the Kent, East London, and New River Companies, had the larger portion of their area outside
  1378
  the county of London, but these two companies had a very small portion of their area of supply, or of their Parliamentary area, outside the county of London. If the House granted leave to the County Council to purchase these companies they would still be workable, and would not bring them into competition with any other companies. These were some of the reasons why these two companies should form a separate group. The different water companies differed in regard to their powers, charges, and supply, in relation to the counties in which they were situated and to the County of London, and in regard to the water consumer. There was no common body called the water companies of London; they were separate and competing bodies, and they had always been regarded as such. It was essential, therefore, that they should proceed with the consideration of the different Bills in detachments. They had introduced the whole of the eight Bills because they wished to solve the whole water question, and they hoped to be able to proceed with them at a later period of the Session. They hoped also that in some cases they might come to an agreement, and they were not prepared to carry all these Bills before the Committee for consideration at once. They must bring their case before the Committee in their own way. The procedure they proposed was the least expensive for all the parties concerned. They had been met by a proposal of the right hon. Member for the University of London that the further consideration of these measures should be deferred until the County Council which was about to be elected had had an opportunity of pronouncing an opinion. He had never ventured to claim for a moment that the House should wait, hat in hand, to know what it was to do on a great question of public interest until they had received the answer of a local body; yet this was what the hon. Member proposed. Were they going when the County Council pronounced again to listen to it or not? If they were not, why did they defer the matter? It was almost a greater victory for the County Council if the House accepted the hon. Member's proposal than if they passed the Second Reading. But by waiting a couple of months all

  1379
  the parties concerned would be kept in doubt whether the House was going to permit any such legislation to proceed or not, and if the House did not want this legislation, it was in the interests of the rateyayers of the County of London that they should say so. Since 1889 this question had been constantly before the County Council, and only on one occasion had there ever been a Division taken by the so-called Moderate Party against the present water proposals. It was a dream to imagine that the County Council were going to reverse their policy on the water question, because the Progressive and the Moderate Parties alike had never been so unanimous on any matter as upon the policy represented by the Bills in question. The Council wanted the Second Reading now, and, if it was accorded by the House, there was nothing to prevent the present Council or the future Council withdrawing the Bills if afterwards they did not approve of them. But he maintained that a great necessity like this, affecting the health of the largest community in the world, should not be left in the hands of private companies, whose main consideration was, of course, the interests of the shareholders. It was a matter which every municipal reformer interested in the better sanitary condition of our large centres of population must regard as of paramount importance, and in these circumstances he asked the House not to postpone decision upon it, but to pass the Bill he now moved.
  *SIR JOHN LUBBOCKproposed as an Amendment—
  "That the further consideration of all Bills for the acquisition of the property of the London Water Companies be postponed until the County Council shortly to be elected shall have had an opportunity of pronouncing upon the subject."
  The right hon. Baronet said, considering this was a matter involving an expenditure of £30,000,000, and that a new County Council was to be elected next week, he thought the hon. Member for Shoreditch would have seen the reasonableness of postponing the question for a few days at least. The true spirit of democracy might have suggested that this opportunity of ascertaining the opinion of the people of London on the question should be taken before any definite course was adopted. He had
  1380
  reason to believe that the majority of the representatives of London would support his Amendment. He was not a shareholder of the water companies, and was acting solely in what he believed to be the interests of the ratepayers. They had been told that the present County Council represented an overwhelming majority of the citizens of the Metropolis, but that was not the fact. The Progressive majority at the last election for the whole of London was 30,000 out of 560,000 voters. Moreover, there were six seats not contested by the Progressives, and, if they allowed the Moderate majority of 2,500 in each, it would reduce the Progressive majority on the whole to 15,000 only. That could hardly be called an overwhelming majority. He contended that the present was a most unsatisfactory time to purchase; and that it would necessarily involve a serious addition to the rates of the Metropolis. The arbitrators who settled the price of purchase would have to look to the profits the company were making. What did the County Council tell them on that point? The Lambeth Company had a Bill before the House which the County Council were opposing, and in their petition the Council stated that—
  "The dividends paid would be found not to be justified if the accounts of the Lambeth Company were properly investigated and proper allowance made in respect of depreciation of capital and superseded works, and that any such profits must undergo considerable reductions in consequence of the additional expenditure and liabilities in which, according to the report of the Royal Commission and the opinion of your petitioners, the Lambeth Company must be involved in the future."
  With those facts before them, was it right or judicious to enter into the question of purchase? But even supposing that purchase could be effected at a fair price, and that the Council could carry out the work economically—which he very much doubted—there was the consideration of the addition to the rates which purchase must involve. The County Council were already overwhelmed with work, and he questioned the wisdom of their undertaking in addition the enormous responsibility of the management of the water supply of the Metropolis. But, putting that point aside, the House was aware that the County Council were under an obliga-

  1381
  tion to pay off their loans in 60 years. The Water Companies were under no such obligation. If the Council bought the Companies, the present ratepayers would not only have to pay for the water, but for the redemption of stock, and this payment of£30,000,000 in 60 years would mean an addition to the water rate of 4d. in the pound. Moreover, an additional water supply, which the County Council believed was absolutely necessary, from distance might involve an increased expenditure of 20 or 30 millions. Under present circumstances that expense, if necessary and undertaken, would fall on the Companies, but if the Bills of the Council passed it would fall on the ratepayers, involving at least another increase in the rate of 4d. in the pound, and he urged that this was a further strong reason for postponing purchase. He was curious to know how the ratepayers of the Metropolis would vote next week if they fully realised the facts of the case. His hon. Friend seemed to imagine that in introducing this Bill he was acting in accordance with the recommendations of the Committee which sat in 1880. But that Committee, over which the present Chancellor of the Exchequer presided, did not recommend a Bill of this kind. In its Report it said—
  "Without absolutely prescribing tin composition of such a body, your Committee are of opinion that it should include elements lo be derived from the Corporation of London and the Metropolitan Board of Works, together with a due representation of the districts at present supplied by the Metropolitan Water Companies."
  But that was not what Bill did. Perhaps it might be said that the London County Council was not in existence when the Committee sat. But the areas of the Water Companies extended beyond the boundaries of London, and clearly the intention of the Committee was that the water supply should be in the hands of some body which was coterminous with the districts to be supplied with water. He resided in Kent, and he felt satisfied that the people of that county would very much object to the water supply of their district being in the hands of the London County Council. His hon. Friend stated that there could be no doubt that the tendency of public opinion was in favour of these Bills. He disputed this statement. What
  1382
  had happened on the point? When the Bill of the London County Council was before the House in 1891, Lord Farrer gave evidence in its favour, and, when his (Sir John Lubbock's) opinion was quoted that "such undertakings are, as a rule, more economically managed as private enterprises than by public bodies," the noble Lord declared that "Sir John Lubbock was in a minority of one on the question." Since then that little party had been increased by the addition of the noble Lord himself, for in his evidence before the Labour Commission two years afterwards he said—
  "The action of the London County Council on the Labour question had caused many to doubt the wisdom of transferring to it public undertakings, and it considerably damped his own ardour with regard to the water supply, so that he was almost inclined to think with Sir John Lubbock that the water should remain in the hands of the Companies."
  An opinion of that kind, coming from so high an authority, must have great weight with the House. Mr. Burdett, in his great standard work on "Stock and Share Companies," referring to Lord Farrer's evidence, says—
  "This evidence indicates a change in public opinion, which now seems to be settling down to the support of the policy of leaving the water supply in the hands of existing companies."
  He knew he was not bound, in opposing the Bill, to suggest an alternative policy, but he had given the subject the most careful and anxious consideration for nearly a quarter of a century, and he would endeavour to indicate the policy that, in his opinion, ought to be pursued. The Water Companies, with, perhaps, one exception, were limited to a dividend of 10 per cent., and they were bound to apply any additional profit in reducing the price of the water. At present four of the Companies were able to pay the maximum dividend, one was paying 9½ per cent., one 8½ per cent., one 8 per cent., and one 6 per cent. Thus in the case of seven of the Companies practically any increase in their profits must go in the reduction of the price of water, while, if there should be a loss, it would fall upon the shareholders. The hon. Member asked them to surrender that position and to enter into this gigantic speculation. If the under taking improved, the ratepayers would

  1383
  gain no more than under present conditions; but, on the other hand, if it went badly, they would be involved in the loss. They must, no doubt, take into consideration that the Companies were entitled to make up their back dividends to 10 per cent. The Chancellor of the Exchequer's Committee suggested that that right should, as in the case of the Gas Companies, be limited to six years, and he thought that suggestion was a very reasonable one. He would suggest that two or three directors should be placed on each Board to protect the public interest—one from the Board of Trade, one from the London County Council, and, in the case of those Companies that supplied the outside districts, one from the County Council of those districts. He submitted that under that proposal the ratepayers would obtain all the benefit of the water supply, while any loss would fall on the Companies. That arrangement, he thought, would be satisfactory, not only to the ratepayers, but to the Companies themselves. It would save the present endless expense of litigation to which they were put, and it would give them a security for their dividend which would be an ample recompense for any sacrifice of possible future profit. With regard to the manner in which the Companies were treated under the Bill, he said he was sure the County Council had no intention of doing any injustice to the holders of debentures. But what the House had to consider was, not the intentions, but the proposal of the County Council, and that proposal was that these debenture-holders should be bought out at the price of the stock last March. They knew, however, that since last March securities of this kind had gone up, for reasons quite apart from the introduction of these Bills. The House, he thought, would never agree to the Second Reading of a clause which would be so unjust to the holders of these Debenture Stocks. In these remarks, however, he was not making any attack on the London County Council, who did not, he felt sure, intend any injustice; but the House could not deal with intentions, they had to look to practical matters as they were brought before them.
  MR. STUARTsaid he was sorry to interrupt the right hon. Baronet,
  1384
  but surely these were questions for consideration in Committee.
  *SIR J. LUBBOCK: That was a point for the House to determine; and he protested against the suggestion to refer a question of great principle of this kind to Committee. It seemed unreasonable to press on a question of such magnitude at the present moment, and he would give a precedent for that course not being followed. When the London County Council was formed six years ago, the Metropolitan Board of Works was terminated some three weeks or a month before the appointed time. Why was that done? Because they were going to commit London to the Black-wall Tunnel Scheme, involving an expenditure of something like half a million. On that occasion Lord Rosebery called a special meeting of the London County Council, and at that meeting said—
  "he felt that a contract of this sort, involving a vast expenditure, which must be defrayed by the London County Council, was one which ought not to be entered into by a body which was about to expire within three weeks."
  He said he spoke "with a solemn sense of responsibility," and proposed that the existence of the Metropolitan Board of Works should be at once terminated, a view in which the Council and the Government concurred. As Vice Chairman of the Council he seconded that resolution, and therefore he was only consistent in proposing the Amendment now standing in his name. The present case was even stronger. In the first place, the Metropolitan Board of Works had three weeks more to act, and their scheme involved an expenditure of £500,000, whereas the term of the present County Council expired next week, and their scheme involved an expenditure of nearly £30,000,000. Surely, in these circumstances, the consideration of this great question, so deeply affecting the welfare of the people of London, ought to be postponed until the new County Council had had an opportunity of considering it in all its bearings. He concluded by moving the Amendment.
  *THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. G. J. SHAW-LEFEVRE,thought it would be convenient to the House if lie took an early opportunity of stating the views of the Government on the

  1385
  question. He had listened with surprise to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman who had just spoken, as the whole of it was an argument against the policy of the purchase. The right hon. Gentleman questioned the policy of purchase from an economic point of view, and in that differed from every authority of importance. The Amendment was not in direct opposition to the Bill, but was one for postponement, and he wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in the event of the House agreeing to the postponement of the Bill until after the County Council election—and as the ratepayers approved of the policy of the Council they knew what the result of the election would be—he would support the proposals now before the House.
  *SIR JOHN LUBBOCKwished to point out that, if London decided at the next election in favour of the Bill, it would be perfectly useless for him to oppose it further.
  *MR. SHAW-LEFEVREasked whether he was to understand that, in the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman, the House was to take the verdict of London. [An hon. MEMBER: "Why not?"] He was glad to hear that, knowing as he did what the result of the election would be. His right hon. Friend had a plan of his own in dealing with this subject, but he rather distrusted men who had plans of their own. That plan proposed an amalgamated water company with a representative of London upon the board.
  *SIR.J. LUBBOCKsaid he had never said so. There would be no amalgamation, because if the companies were amalgamated, arrangements would have to be made as to the different classes of stock, which would be very difficult and expensive.
  *MR. SHAW-LEFEVREsaid, the right hon. Gentleman had stated that there would be representation of London on the companies, and, as he understood, one company would be so formed as to be, in the opinion of his right hon. Friend, competent to effect whatever improvements were necessary in the direction of giving fresh water supplies to the Metropolis. And he also gave the impression that it would be undesirable and inexpedient to procure additional supplies from the river Thames. If the water companies were compelled to
  1386
  expend capital out of their existing resources, and in reduction of their present profits and dividends, for the purpose of providing the future supply of London from a distance, it would be a serious burden upon them, and he should not be surprised if the conclusion to which the companies would come was that they had better embrace the present opportunity of purchase. The right hon. Gentleman had quoted Lord Farrer as being almost inclined to leave the supply in the hands of the companies, but he was hardly justified in quoting Lord Farrer. His opinion, no doubt, was a competent one; still, the right hon. Gentleman was not justified in quoting him.
  *SIR. J. LUBBOCK: I quote his evidence given before the Commission.
  *MR. SHAW-LEFEVRE: I am not speaking without knowledge of the matter. All that Lord Farrer had to say was, that he was almost inclined to think that it would be better to leave the supply in the hands of the companies. At any rate, the right hon. Gentleman had not the support of any large body of the members of the London County Council, the majority of whom had approved the principle of purchase. He believed also that the new Council would not be unwilling to adopt the scheme. The County Council had only followed the example of other great corporations, and they had all proceeded in the same direction—to take over the control of the water supply, obtained through some river passing through the district, from private companies. It had been found necessary then to obtain fresh supplies, and with the view to obtaining that it was always necessary for the corporation to step in. There were cases without end in which corporations had come before the House with schemes of this nature, and they had all been sanctioned by that House on the Second Reading, and approved finally by Select Committees. The House need not be frightened by the great amount involved. There was the case of Birmingham, where the Corporation was ultimately involved in from £6,000,000 to £8,000,000 in perfecting their schemes. They were told the other night by the Member for West Birmingham that London was ten times

  1387
  larger than Birmingham; and if Birmingham spent £6,000,000, why should not London undertake to spend a considerable sum of money? He hoped it would not be required to spend money in the same proportion. It was said, as to repayment of capital, that an increase of 4d. in the £1 would be necessary; but if that were a correct estimate it must apply to every other corporation in the country. There was no instance yet of a corporation being deterred from purchase by fears of that kind. He could not but hope that, by good management by the Council, it would be found that there would be no serious increase of charge. He pointed out that there had been a constant consensus of authority in favour of the transfer of the supply of water to local authorities. They began with the Duke of Richmond's Commission in 1866. Then in 1880 there was the Committee of his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Nothing could be stronger than the conclusions of that Committee in favour of the transfer of the water supply to the local authorities. His right hon. Friend seemed to think that the Committee recommended some form of trust; he forgot, however, that the County Council was not then in existence, but the recommendations of the Committee clearly showed that the formation of such a body was in their mind, for these words were used:—
  "In the absence of any single municipal body, a water authority of a representative character should be constituted."
  *SIR J. LUBBOCKsaid he quoted those words.
  *MR. SHAW-LEFEVREsaid, apparently his right hon. Friend did not see the force of them. A central authority had been created, and they might now transfer to it the control of the water supply. Then followed other Committees and other Reports. There was a Committee presided over by the Member for Northumberland, and it reported that the County Council should have the power to promote a Bill with the object of taking over the water companies. He did not propose at this stage to enter into the details of the scheme. Many of the proposals were open to consideration and would receive consideration by the Committee. The proposals in the Bill, however, were not nearly so arbitrary as those in the Birmingham Bill, and the
  1388
  House allowed that arbitrary Bill to pass, on the ground that all the objections should be considered by the Select Committee. He ventured to say that these were not objections which should be taken to the Bill on a Second Reading. In his opinion, the proposal of the County Council was a wise one in the interests of London. He believed that there was nothing in which the people of London were more interested than in obtaining a supply of water. The object of the Amendment was, that the opponents of the County Council might vote against the scheme without showing their hand, and he was confirmed in that by a statement in The Times that morning to the effect that—
  "although ten London Conservative Members would vote for Sir John Lubbock's Amendment on the Second Reading, they were not prepared to support a Motion for the rejection of the measure."
  They wanted to postpone the Bill and delay it. The effect of postponing the Second Reading would be the waste of another year. In a matter of this great importance it was essential that they should send the Bill to a Select Committee which, at best, could hardly get to work before Easter. If, at the coming election, the policy of the London County Council should be reversed, it would still be open to the new Council to withdraw the Bill at any moment. He had, however, the utmost confidence that the people of London would confirm the policy of the Council, and insist that the control of the water supply must pass into the hands of the County Council.
  MR. E. BOULNOISsaid, they had been told that the County Council was unanimous for acquiring the water supply of London, but it would not be denied that there was a fair minority in the Council which was opposed to the principle, at all events. He thought these Bills should not be proceeded with until they had more evidence on the financial aspect of the question. The minority did not know the real facts, and they were entitled to know them. He would urge three reasons why the Amendment of his right hon. Friend should be accepted, and they were reasons simply for delay. The first reason was that there was no information before the House upon the

  1389
  financial aspect of the question; the second, that there was no mandate from the electors to deal with it; and the third, that the London County Council did not know their own mind on the subject. With regard to the first point, some members of the Council had tried over and over again to ascertain what would be the effect of this policy on the rates, but all in vain. Even now, it would be observed, if hon. Members looked at the Bill, there was no disclosure as to how the money was to be raised. The outlay had been variously estimated at from £30,000,000 to £50,000,000. Reports received from the engineer to the County Council were not disclosed to the Council, and therefore not to the public, but it was quite clear that the sum involved would be gigantic. That being so, the House should have some indication of what liability the ratepayers were likely to be involved in by the schemes of the County Council before they were asked to assent to the Bill. As to his second point, that there was no mandate from the electors, he had a strong opinion that when the ratepayers knew what the schemes were likely to cost they would hesitate before they pronounced in favour of them. Mr. Arthur Arnold had admitted in the County Council that "they had not made any adequate calculation" as to the cost, and it was generally believed that no calculation whatever had been made by the Council in this matter. The London County Council did not know their own mind. They had presented Bills for the acquisition of the undertakings of the Water Companies, and they knew that tens of thousands would probably be spent upstairs in fighting over those Bills. At the same time they had passed a Resolution which declared that the supplies from the Thames and the Lea were contaminated water and not fit for potable purposes, and the true solution of the problem was to obtain additional supplies from purer sources, and they accordingly instructed their engineer to proceed with the preparation of a scheme. So that next Session the House would see a Bill brought in for this new scheme, and then there would be more lavish expenditure of money on witnesses, on expert evidence, on inquiries. The expenditure on this alone would probably
  1390
  not be less than £1,000,000 sterling. He thought it highly probable that the new County Council, not withstanding what the President of the Local Government Board had predicted, might think that the introduction of eight Bills was inexpedient. It certainly was an extremely costly proposal, and they might think it more expedient to bring in one Bill, and one would have thought that would have been really the better course. It was also probable that the new Council might desire to enter into negotiations with the Joint Authorities of Middlesex, Hertford, Kent, Surrey, and Essex, and avoid their opposition, which would be only reasonable. He was, indeed, surprised that the London County Council had not got on their side these Authorities before coming to this House. At all events the new Council might think it desirable to carry out the recommendation of the Committee of 1891, that the Council should endeavour to purchase the undertakings in conjunction with the Authorities of the outside areas. The object of the County Council had now been openly avowed. They did not intend to acquire the whole of the undertakings. Their determination was to acquire the Lambeth undertaking in the first instance, and the hon. Member in charge of the Bill stated that the principle which induced them to do so was that that Company supplied an area which was almost entirely inside London and very little outside. Now, what were the facts? The area in the County of London supplied by that Company was 25 square miles, and the area outside 46 square miles; the reservoirs in London covered 17 acres, and outside 75 acres. The new Council might think it advisable to deal with the question as a whole, and not to tinker with it piecemeal, as the present Council was doing. Other Corporations which had adopted this policy had, at all events, bought the undertakings in their respective districts honestly and fairly. The London County Council were not doing that, but were approaching the water companies in a very different spirit. It would be said with some truth that the London County Council, in its expiring moments, with only a few hours' breath left in its body, was endeavouring to force upon Londoners a gigantic scheme, involving them in enormous expenditure, whilst after the speech

  1391
  of the President of the Local Government Board it would also be said that an expiring Government were aiding and abetting the London Comity Council in forcing these claims upon what might turn out to be an unwilling electorate.
  *MR. H. L. W. LAWSONdesired to intervene in this Debate as a member of the Committee which sat in 1891 to consider the Water Trust and Water Commission Bills. That was a hybrid Committee, the members of the Party opposite were in a majority, and yet that Committee was absolutely unanimous in deciding that the water authority of London ought to be the London County Council. More than that, they had submitted to them statements to show the successful working of municipal enterprise in water supply from many urban centres and great cities. There was no evidence on the other side, and he recollected the Member for Blackpool saying that the Committee would take as their starting-point the report of the Committee of 1880, presided over by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and not consider whether municipal ownership of the water supply was a good thing or not, but take it as granted by the reference from the House. Therefore it was not, as the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down contended, a party question; for his own party on that Committee agreed to assume it, and that put it for ever outside the range of party controversy. The Amendment before the House was not for the rejection of the Bill, but to postpone it until after the re-election of the London County Council. He submitted to the House that, although Members of all sides might be rushing about the metropolis from hall to hall speaking for one candidate or another, it was beneath the dignity of the House of Commons to postpone its decision until after the re-election of a local body. Suppose this were the case of the Corporation of Liverpool, or the County Council of Lancashire, would the House be asked to postpone its decision on Bills introduced by these bodies until the re-election of their members? Such a thing was without parallel or precedent. The right hon. Gentleman the member for the University of London spoke of the Board of Works as a parallel case. But that was the extinction of a governing
  1392
  body which had been weighed and found wanting. It could not be compared with the re-election of a body like the London County Council, which carried on the traditions of government and did not lose its corporate existence. It would be very inconvenient for the members of the newly-elected Council to find their hands were tied, and they were unable to proceed with these bills if they decided they were worthy of support. They had to deal not only with the Standing Orders of the House of Commons but of the House of Lords. The hon. Gentleman who last spoke said it was an unprecedented thing for the London County Council to try and buy up the Companies one by one. He had authority for saying they intended to purchase all the existing water companies, but they hoped that by dealing with one or two of them, they would be able to purchase the others by agreement instead of by arbitration, and thus save expense. The Committee would settle the principles, and the arbitrators would work out the figures of purchase. As to the possible economy that might be effected, he did not know that they were called upon to discuss it, but he believed in the unification of the water supply. The concentration of management and machinery would be in itself a saving which would compensate for the extra expense in other ways. But the people of London had had it demonstrated to them during the last week or two that this was not only a matter of pocket, but of health and convenience. The decent comfort of the home depended on water administration. He thought the House would be taking a strong and unprecedented course if they accepted the motion of the Member for the London University, considering that the London County Council was not only following the uniform practice of this House, but the uniform advice given by every Royal Commission and Select Committee that had ever inquired into the subject.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: This subject is one in which I have taken a great deal of interest, and, although not a member of the London County Council, I should like to say a few words based upon my own experience. I cannot altogether on this occasion sympathise with my right hon. Friend who sits beside me. Whatever

  1393
  may be the intention of his Amendment, I think his argument goes further than the Amendment, and does go the length of negativing the idea of the purchasing of the water supply by a public authority. That raises an issue we have first to dispose of. If my right hon. Friend is right in his very interesting speech and in the very weighty arguments he has brought before the House, not only ought we to reject this Bill, but we ought to dismiss, at all events for the present, any idea whatever of any local authority ever becoming the owner of the water supply of London. As I say, I cannot go so far with my right hon. Friend. T do not agree with his view, which, I think, is really rather a novel view, at all events, during recent years, because in all our discussions, both of this London question and also of the question of a similar supply in the provinces, there has been an almost universal consensus of opinion that wherever possible it is desirable that the local authority should become the owner on fair and reasonable terms. That I believe to be the recommendation of various Committees, not speaking of London alone, but of sanitary and other Committees, that in the public interest, every assistance ought to be given by this House to local authorities, to become the owners of their own water supplies. In regard to London, I think the case is very strong indeed. In the first place it is not, after all, in the public interest than an enterprise which is of necessity in the nature of a monopoly, should remain in private hands. We may give every credit to the public spirit of the directors of a private company; but still it is true, after all, that their first duty is to their shareholders, and that the interest and convenience of the public, are likely to suffer if they are at any time antagonistic to the interests of the shareholders. My right hon. Friend has brought forward a new argument in this respect, because he says that, as the companies are confined to a maximum dividend, the ratepayers of London, have the advantage of not suffering loss. If there is a loss they are not obliged to pay more. But the universal experience of provincial corporations, has proved that when a company has secured its maximum dividend, the object for economy has
  1394
  gone. There is no longer any pressing stimulus to effect economy and make further profits which would lead to any considerable reduction in the price of the water or any considerable advantage. I hold that it is most inconvenient, to say the least of it, that a local authority should not have the control of its own streets. When private companies have the power of breaking up streets which are under the control of the local authority there is sure to be a clashing of interests and friction which very often produces very bad results. Then, Sir, I cannot doubt, and this applies especially to the case of London, that there is an opportunity here, without injustice to anybody, of making a very considerable saving. I do not think that any man of business will contend that, if the management of the water supply, after its transfer to the local authority, is wise and prudent, there will not then be an opportunity in the unification and consolidation of all these undertakings, for a very large saving. It cannot be to the interests of economy that there should be eight companies doing the same thing, with eight separate boards of directors and eight separate staffs and all the paraphernalia of eight separate companies. But, Sir, it follows from that if there is, as I believe there is, this great opportunity for the County Council to make an arrangement which would be to the advantage of the ratepayers, that also there is no necessity for them to behave in an illiberal, ungenerous, or unjust manner towards the shareholders in these companies. And, Sir, after all, I venture to say to the House, here is the crux of the whole question. My hon. Friend opposite who spoke last but one, and who is able to speak in some sense for the companies, said incidentally in the course of his speech that, if the companies could get fair terms—the Birmingham terms—there would be no objection on their part to the purchase of their undertakings. An hon. Gentleman below me laughs at that. Birmingham has been held up in this Debate and in previous Debates as having acted wisely in reference to the purchase of the water supply; and I venture to say here that that purchase has been, in the case of Birmingham, satisfactory to the shareholders of the water companies and also

  1395
  perfectly satisfactory to the ratepayers themselves. Why, if you are going to follow the example of Birmingham, should you not accept Birmingham's terms? It may be that there are special conditions in the case of London which render it impossible to accept ipsissimis verbis the Birmingham agreement. Very well, why on earth will you not accept fair and open arbitration? Now, Sir, I hold very strongly—and have urged it again and again to the House on private Bills—that we should not undertake to refuse a Second Reading of a private Bill except on some great question of principle. If it is merely a question of detail, I think the great majority of the House has always been prepared to admit that the House is not a competent tribunal to deal with such a matter, and that it could only be dealt with by a Committee upstairs. I say exactly the same with regard to this Bill, only I find there are principles of the very greatest importance, which are novel, laid down in the Bill of the County Council, and on which the House ought to pronounce an opinion if the County Council adheres to them. What is the principle? In the statement of reasons in support of the Bill I find it alleged that the water companies want to sell their property to the County Council, and, at the same time, to fix the price. I have never seen on the part of the water companies any desire or intention to do anything of the kind, but that is exactly what the County Council propose to do. The County Council in one clause of the Bill proposes that, failing agreement, the valuation of these companies should be arrived at by arbitration, and that the arbitrator should take into account all the circumstances of the case. I think that is perfectly fair, and if the County Council had stopped there, I, for one, would most heartily support their view; but they did not stop there. After having said it is to be a fair arbitration, and the arbitrator is to take into account all the circumstances of the case, they proceed to specify half-a-dozen or a dozen different items and considerations which they think are in their favour and which the arbitrator is specially to take into account. Let any man of business who has ever been engaged in arbitration consider what the effect of that is. The special attention of the
  1396
  arbitrator is called to a number of circumstances connected with the sale of the undertaking, and, on the other hand, no reference is made to any single circumstance which might be held by the arbitrator or the companies to be in favour of the companies. Anything more one-sided, more absolutely or evidently unfair than a condition of that kind it is impossible for me to conceive. I do not know who is responsible for putting that clause in the Bill. Nothing could be fairer than the statement of my hon. Friend in introducing the Bill. What he said was, that they wanted to buy, not one company, but the whole of the companies, and to buy them at a fair valuation. If the Bill had only carried out that statement I can hardly believe there would have been any necessity for even proposing to refuse it access to a Committee. I want to ask those who in this House are entitled to represent the County Council on what they intend to stand. Do they intend to stand by the declaration of the hon. Member who so ably introduced the Bill, or will they be satisfied with a fair and open arbitration, in which the arbitrator shall be instructed to take into account all the circumstances of the case, or do they want to prejudge the matter in their own interest? According to the reply which the hon. Gentlemen give me, my vote will be given on this occasion. If they mean what I regard as a perfectly unfair system of arbitration, I think they are laying down a principle which the House ought not to accept. I protest against the tone of the speech of the President of the Local Government Board. He ought to speak, in a case of this kind, in the interest of the public, and in the interest of this House, if you like; but he spoke entirely in the interest of the Progressive party on the London County Council, and he tried to make electioneering capital out of the matter, which, I hold, is altogether outside party questions. It has already been pointed out by my right hon. Friend (Sir J. Lubbock), who certainly, as a Member of the London County Council, cannot be considered hostile to its general policy, that a very large majority of the County Council have been in favour of the purchase of the water supply, and I do not regard this as one of the questions which is a political question,

  1397
  or even a municipally political question, in considering the questions which are in dispute between the two sides of the County Council. But it is a question in which not only the water companies, but, above all, the ratepayers of London, have the greatest possible interest. Thousands and thousands of pounds have been spent both by the County Council and the water companies in litigation. What is going to be done now? Suppose the House carries the Second Reading of this Bill, there would then have to be a hotly contested fight in Committee of this House and in Committee of another House. Whatever the result of that contest is, many thousands of pounds will be unnecessarily spent in litigation. After that there will have to be an arbitration. Who is to pay these expenses? It is not the water companies, although in the first instance they have to provide the costs. So long as they are within their statutory maximum they can always get out of their rates expenses of this kind. Therefore, in the long run, the expenses both of the County Council and the water companies would fall on the unfortunate ratepayers of London. If there is reason to believe there is no real difference on the merits between the two parties—if, on the one hand, the companies are willing to go to fair and open arbitration, and if, on the other hand, the Member for Shoreditch is willing to stand by his own declaration, and to accept a fair and open arbitration, all that seems to be necessary is that some one authorised to speak for the County Council should agree to strike out the clauses in the Bill which specially confine and direct the arbitrator. In that case I cannot help thinking that almost unanimously we might proceed to the second reading of the Bill. There are two other points about which I do not know there is any controversy. The one is that debentureholders ought to lie made absolutely secure. I do not think any member of the County Council intends to injure the security of the debentures in which trustees have been allowed to invest. The other point is that it would not be fair if it were an ulterior object on the part of the County Council, which I will not believe after the speech of my hon. friend the Member for Shoreditch, to
  1398
  deal with one company only and use the result as a lever to depreciate the value of the properties of other companies. I see that such an idea has been suspected. I say that if that existed it would be monstrous, it would be most unjust, and I cannot believe the House would assent to it. My hon. friend has stated in the clearest possible terms it is the intention of the County Council to deal with the companies in the sense of the recommendation of the Committee of 1880 which was presided over by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and on which I had the honour to sit as a Member. The spirit of the recommendation of that Committee was to deal with the whole of the water supply of London, and to place it in the hands of one central authority. There can be on difficulty presented by that, and I imagine my hon. Friend would have no objection whatever to make it absolutely clear to the House that the Bills which are before the House and which deal with the other companies would be proceeded with, or, if one were dropped, all would be dropped altogether. These are the only three points at issue. The principal point I venture to say, is the question of arbitration, and I would be much delighted if hon. Members speaking for the County Council would give me an assurance in that respect which would enable me to feel there would be a fair and open arbitration in which the shareholders of the companies would have full justice done to them. In that case I should vote for the second reading. If that assurance is not given, I think we must consider the issue is deliberately raised that this House is asked to say whether it will permit in future a local authority to take the property of individuals, and take it at the price which the local authority itself is to fix. I say to a proposition of that kind I should certainly have to give a negative.
  The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Sir W. HARCOURT,: I am sure that on matters of principle there will be on difference between us. As the right hon. Gentleman has said, he and I sat on the Water Committee of 1880, and, according to a practice which is common, we collaborated and produced the report of that Committee. What was the principle of that report? It was that it was for the

  1399
  public interest that the water supply of London should be in the hands of the local authority. In the report we stated that the great misfortune of London was that there was no central local authority. We constituted, with the material at our disposal, a body which should act for London in respect to water supply. What we looked forward to then was that, whenever a central authority for London was created, one of its first duties should be to acquire the water supply. So far the right hon. Gentleman and I are in absolute agreement. All the great towns of England have acquired an abundant supply of pure water. Why is it that the moment it is proposed to do for the five million people of London what has been done for Birmingham, Liverpool, Glasgow, Manchester and Leeds, there should arise a vehement opposition? The right hon. Baronet (Sir J. Lubbock), who is himself a most distinguished member of the County Council, argued against such a proposition. That, however, is not the effect of his amendment on the paper. The amendment is one which I confess I have not been able to understand. What is the meaning of postponing the consideration of this matter until after the elections? Would you do that with any other municipal body? Such a proposition would be laughed out of the House at once. The right hon. Baronet seemed to assume that in the next Council the majority might be opposed to the Bill. To postpone the consideration is not the way to meet a proposal of this kind. If the Bill is read a second time, the next Council will have the opportunity of supporting the measure or otherwise, just as they please. We do not bind ourselves to the details of the Bill in giving a vote for its second reading. All we have to look at now, in my opinion, is whether the Public Authorities ought to be intrusted with powers to acquire the property of Water Companies. In the Report of the Committee of 1880 we suggested an alternative—and I have always thought it a very powerful alternative—which was a separate supply. If anyone chooses to look at the production for which the right hon. gentleman and I are jointly responsible, they will see that it was on that alternative supply we relied, so as to ensure that the people of
  1400
  London get fairer terms, and a proper supply of water at a fair price. There are only two courses open to us—an alternative supply or purchase. If they cannot purchase on fair terms, the alternative supply is the only other course open to the people of London. I do not see any question of principle that divides the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham from us. He spoke of the nature of the arbitration and of the security for debenture-holders. These, surely, are questions for the Committee. Under all these circumstances I for one come to the conclusion, being still of the opinion I maintained on the Committee of 1880, jointly with the right hon. Gentleman—namely, in favour of purchase, if it can be made on fair terms, and in favour of an alternative supply if purchase cannot be effected on fair terms—and, the representative body of this metropolis having came forward with a proposal in this matter, I do not see how we can possibly take any other course except to vote for the second reading.
  MR. G. J. GOSCHEN: My right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham has raised a point to which no Member of the County Council has yet replied. The right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down says it is a question for the Committee whether the arbitration is to be open or not. But as a London Representative, I wish to speak in regard to the naked question put before the House by my right lion. Friend the Member for the University of London—namely, whether this matter should be referred to the next County Council. The Chancellor of the Exchequer asks, by way of reply to that question, whether such treatment would be applied to any of the large towns in the provinces. But what is the position? Important Members of the minority in the County Council have stated, in this House, that they do not consider the present County Council has given sufficient information to enable the constituencies to judge fairly on this question. I ask, is it right, on a question of this stupendous magnitude—because I think the President of the Local Government Board will admit that this may be a question of £40,000,000 or £50,000,000—that there should be so strange a reticence on the

  1401
  part of the London County Council to give information? Is not that a strange proceeding on the part of the present County Council? I think my right hon. Friend is perfectly justified in believing that, when the London County Council is differently constituted, it may take a different view as to what is the fair method of dealing in a case of this kind.
  SIR W. HARCOURT: And so they may, even though the Bill be read a second time.
  MR. GOSCHEN: Yes, after all the expense has been incurred, and after our constituencies have been committed by a Vote of this House. But I think the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham affords us an opportunity to come to an arrangement upon this question. There stand on the Notice Paper two Instructions. One, in the name of the hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Banbury), is as follows:—
  "After Second Reading of Southwark and Vauxhall Water (Transfer) Bill, to move:— 'That it be an Instruction to the Committee that the arbitration shall be an open arbitration, and that the arbitrator shall consider impartially all points that are favourable to both sides.'"
  I think that is the point on which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham wishes an assurance. Then the other Instruction, which is to be moved by the hon. Member for Chelsea (Mr. Whitmore), is:—
  "That it be an Instruction to the Committee to insert a clause providing that the said Bill shall not become law until the whole of the Bills dealing with the Purchase of the London Water Companies by the London County Council have received the Royal Assent."
  If an assurance were given that these two Instructions will be acceded to by the Friends of the County Council, I am sure the matter would be settled without a Division.
  MR. B. L. COHENsaid, it had been urged that the London County Council ought not to be treated differently in a matter of this kind from the municipalities of Birmingham, Manchester, or of any other large provincial town. But he should like to know whether there was a practice on those municipal corporations of having reports and accounts presented to Sub-Committees of these Standing Committees, kept back from the Members, as reports and accounts were kept back on the London
  1402
  County Council; and not alone kept back from the Members, but returned to the officers who drew them up because, forsooth, they had not satisfied the calculations which had been expected from them! He had been a Member of the Finance Committee of the London County Council ever since that body was instituted by Parliament, with the exception of three weeks, and he was sure the House would be surprised to hear that there had not been laid before that Committee any Report of any kind as to the probable effects of this proposed gigantic acquisition of water companies on the finances of the London County Council and on the ratepayers of London. No person would dispute the advantage and necessity of an abundant supply of water, which was one of the primary necessaries of life, to the people of London; but he did not believe there was a Corporation in England, and he was quite sure there was not a business body in the world, that would approach such a project without having first inquired into its probable cost. If such reports existed they were withheld from those who were entitled to them. At a recent meeting of the London County Council, he asked the Vice Chairman, who was also Chairman of the Parliamentary Committee, whether any Report had been presented by officers of the Council as to the financial burdens that would be entailed on the Council and on the ratepayers of London by this undertaking. The reply of the Vice Chairman was, that no such inquiry had been instituted. On the next day, at a meeting of the Finance Committee, he again inquired into the matter, and was startled to find that such a Report had been presented. Perhaps, the fact had escaped the memory of the Vice Chairman, but it was a surprising fact that that Gentleman was in the chair when the Report was submitted to the Committee, and was, for some reasons he did not know, referred back by them for re-examination. Therefore, while he was not in any way opposed to the transfer of water undertakings from private Companies to public authorities, he thought the action of the London County Council was of a character so much calculated to inspire misgiving, if not distrust, that there was abundant ground for postponing the advance

  1403
  of these Bills until they could be considered by the new County Council. The President of the Local Government Board said that all knew that the next London County Council would be of the same constitution. That confidence of the right hon. Gentleman was not shared by those who were opposing this Amendment; because if they really had that absolute and precipitate confidence in the return of another Progressive majority it would be less rather than more reason for opposing the Amendment. If it were the intention of the London County Council to proceed on the equitable and almost rudimentary principles suggested by the right hon. Member for Birmingham, then the postponement of the Second Reading at this moment would not retard, but would promote, the ultimate passage of the Bill. Instead of costly and dilatory fighting probably in both Committee-rooms, they would speedily and readily get the just terms.
  *MR. J. FLETCHER MOULTONsaid, that the greater part of the hon. Member's speech seemed to be utterly unworthy of the dignity of the House. In saying this, the hon. Member would know that he meant nothing personally unpleasant to him, because they were the best friends on the London County Council. Here was a great municipality asking, as other municipalities have done, to have the charge of its own water supply; and was it worthy of the dignity of the House to have dissentient members of a particular committee grumbling as to the amount of information furnished to them, and as to the unsatisfactory reply given to a certain letter? Parliament having created a municipality in London could listen only to the voice of that municipality, and must believe that it had done its work properly. If it had not its constituents were the tribunal to judge it. It was beneath the dignity of the House to go behind the conduct of a responsible municipality. The right hon. Member for West Birmingham had put forward a question with regard to the terms of purchase. At present the question was only one of whether powers of purchase should be granted, and on arbitration terms. But the suggestion had been made that the terms provided in the
  1404
  Bill were unfair and inequitable to such an extent as to constitute a matter of principle rather than of detail. He would call the attention of the House to what the proposals in the Bill were. He thought they were perfectly equitable, and that if any addition had to be made to them to make their scope clearer, it could well be done in Committee. The first proposal was that, if an agreement could be come to, the London County Council was authorised to enter into the agreement. Arbitration for compulsory purchase was only in default of agreement. It was suggested by the right hon. Member for West Birmingham that the County Council were to fix the price.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: The hon. and learned Member is only reading a part. I hope he will go on and read the rest.
  *MR. J. F. MOULTONsaid, that it was impossible to read more than one part at a time. He had no intention of stopping until he had put the House in full possession of the terms—
  "For the purpose of the arbitration under this part of the Act, the Council shall appoint one arbitrator, and the company shall appoint one arbitrator, and then the two arbitrators shall, before proceeding to the reference, appoint a third arbitrator, who shall, if necessary, act as umpire."
  That was not only a fair tribunal, but one appointed in the ordinary way for such arbitrations. Then again—
  "The consideration to be paid by the Council for the transfer of the undertaking, if determined by arbitration, shall be such sum of money as the arbitrators determine to be fair and reasonable value of the undertaking, after allowing for the liability involved by debenture stock, and having regard to all the circumstances of the case. In determining the fair and reasonable value of the undertaking, the arbitrators shall, among other matters, have regard to the following."
  Anyone who had had anything to do with arbitration knew how very vague an expression "all the circumstances of the case" was; and it was necessary, when there was anything peculiar in the arbitration, to put in terms pointing to matters which ought to be considered by the arbitrators. There were a number of things mentioned in this case, not one of which was unfair, and in order that these might include "all the circumstances of the case," the County Council would not object in the

  1405
  slightest degree to the Committee putting in those in favour of the other side. These terms specified were only those which the Council believed that they must have in, in order to get a fair judgment of the case. He quite agreed that the arbitrators should impartially consider all points favourable to both sides; and he was sure that the London County Council did not desire to exclude any point which would be in favour of the other side. Knowing the long history of these water companies, and knowing the peculiarity of their position, the London County Council would not have been doing their duty if they had not secured, in other than the vague words, "all the circumstances of the case," the proper consideration of many different points. One of the things to be considered was: "The condition and state of repair of the reservoirs, filter beds, &c., of the Lambeth Company, and the probability of future expenditure thereon, together with any liabilities or obligations in connection with their undertakings, which the Lambeth Company might reasonably be expected to bear." Another consideration was the probability of the limitation of the company's legal powers.
  "The adequacy and efficiency of the present sources of supply, and of the reservoirs, filter beds, &c., to meet the present and future requirements; the probable necessity of the future introduction of a new source of supply, and of new and improved works."
  Were not these considerations which ought to come into a fair and equitable valuation of the undertaking? There was no objection to other things on the other side being mentioned, but on the Second Reading of the Bill, it was not for the House to go into details which the Committee could deal with. Again—
  "The legality of the charges now made or claimed to be made by the Lambeth Company, together with the circumstances under which powers have been granted by Parliament. The deductions from such claims may be reasonably made by reason of the insufficiency of the present storage or filtration of the Lambeth Company, or of the deficiency of the supply. The deductions to be made in respect of works, lands, or appliances, which have become wholly or practically useless."
  These were also fair matter for consideration. [The Hon. Member then read the remainder of the conditions.] Those were the whole of the conditions which had been suggested, which made
  1406
  an unfair arbitration. They were all included, in one sense, in those words "all the circumstances of the case;" and it seemed impossible to suggest that they were unfair, or to make it appear that the question whether they ought to be added was a question otherwise than for the Committee to whom the Bill would be referred. He submitted, that this was a question with reference to which Committee after Committee had said that it was the duty of this Municipality to get possession of London's water supply. The County Council took powers in the Bill to agree; without agreement it took powers to lay before an impartial tribunal after considering "all the circumstances of the case." He submitted that the House ought not in a matter of this kind to depart from the custom which it had always observed—namely, that of encouraging Municipalities, the greater the better, and most of all London, to get into their own hands that on which the health and comfort of the population which they governed so largely depended.
  SIR R. E. WEBSTERsaid he would have been better pleased with the eulogy of the London County Council by his hon. and learned Friend, if the hon. Member had not himself been so prominent a member of the Progressive Party of that body. In reading the directions in the Bill, however, his hon. and learned Friend had omitted to observe that from beginning to end there was not a single direction which was in favour of the Water Companies. He had the good fortune to enjoy considerable experience of the work in connection with arbitrations, and he frankly said that he had never seen any directions to an arbitrator which were so onesided and so obviously put down for the purpose not only of enabling the arbitrator to take into consideration "all the circumstances of the case," but entitling him to speculate on matters upon which no arbitrator ought ever to take into consideration in a question of this kind. Had any hon. Member ever heard of an arbitrator taking into consideration "the probability of legal powers being limited in the future? "Again, the arbitrator was to inquire not only into the legality of the charges, but into the circumstances in which such powers and charges had

  1407
  been granted by Parliament—that was to say, into the history of the undertakings for the last 40 years. It was all very well for his hon. and learned Friend to say on behalf of the London County Council that no doubt they would be willing to insert any other clause which the Water Companies desired in the Bill; but he was afraid that when the London County Council got a Bill into Committee, the story would be very different. If a promise of that kind was to be given in the House, he thought that the opponents of the scheme would rather see it in writing, and they would be more impressed with the impartiality of the London County Council after it had shown an indication to be fair in this matter on the face of the Bill itself. It was in his judgment a very strange thing that the circumstances which were to be enumerated were all on one side; the circumstances in favour of the other side were to be left out. He did not possess the interest of a farthing in any Water Company undertaking in London, directly or indirectly; he approached the question simply as a ratepayer of London, and with a desire to see fair terms of acquisition fixed by the London County Council. Again, what was to be the position of the outlying authorities, and had that position been considered? He believed that there was no case in which either for water or gas a County Council or Corporation had been allowed to purchase powers extending outside the boundaries of the municipality without terms being imposed in the Bill providing that the outlying authorities should have the power to come in and purchase their interests on the same terms as the County Council. He remembered the terms under which Birmingham acquired its water and gas, and Stockton its water; before schemes of this kind were allowed to be pressed forward the interests of the outlying authorities had been considered, and those authorities had been consulted. What step had been taken here to consider the interests of Kent, Surrey and Hertfordshire, and to see whether they were protected or interfered with by the Bill? Another point was this, that there was nothing to prevent the County Council, after securing the passage of one Bill, delaying to go on with the others in the meantime. He submitted that the water
  1408
  supply for London ought to be acquired as a whole, as part of one scheme. Surely it ought to be a part of any scheme promoted by the London County Council that it should not be granted power to acquire the powers of one company without acquiring the powers of them all. There ought not to be an attempt on the part of the County Council to rush these Bills through in order to secure some advantage; measures ought to be submitted showing a feeling of impartiality with reference to the interests about to be acquired, and some care that the procedure was to be such that those authorities whose interests were to be taken were properly represented. If there had been a real desire to deal fairly with this question, the offer of his right hon. Friend the Member for St. George's, Hanover Square (Mr. Goschen) would not have been treated with so slight notice by the representatives of the Country Council. He there fore asked the House to pause before it allowed those Bills to be rushed into Committee at a time when the question was engaging the attention of the electors of the Metropolis, and until the provisions which ought to be inserted in the Bills securing justice to the companies had been adequately considered by the representatives of the County Council.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. SYDNEY BUXTON,said, the question had been raised by the last speaker as to whether all the Bills ought to be taken at once. The County Council had no intention to go through with all the Bills at once, but they believed that by taking two Bills first it would, in the first place, be a shorter, less expensive, and more expeditious process than if all were dealt with at once. They thought also that if the Committee laid down certain principles with regard to the acquisition of the Companies it would be less difficult for the two parties to meet without incurring further expense in coming to the House or otherwise; and the other Companies might come to terms with the London County Council.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAINsaid, in these circumstances he supposed the promoters would have no objection to allow locus standi to the other Companies?
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid, the County Council would not oppose the

  1409
  granting of locus standi. As to the more important matter, the terms of instruction to the Arbitrator, he believed, as far as he knew anything of the position and feelings of the County Council, they had no desire, by special instruction, to narrow down and prejudice the case of the Water Companies so that the Arbitrator should not be able to take into account any circumstances favourable to the Companies. But the position surely was this; the only matter favourable to the Companies which could be taken into account was the present value of each undertaking as a going concern. From that there were certain deductions to be made, and the County Council had stated them clearly in the Bill; but they quite understood that the insertion of them would not preclude the Committee from adding other points, and would not preclude the Arbitration from taking into account all matters favourable to the Company as well as unfavourable to them. If it would meet the views of the House and obtain a unanimous vote, he was authorised on behalf of the County Council to say they would accept, as an instruction to the Committee, in lieu of the somewhat crude one which was on the paper in the name of the hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Banbury), the following words:—
  "That the Committee have power to insert in the Bill directions to the Arbitrator to take into consideration any points favourable to either party in addition to those specified in the Bill." [Laughter and Opposition cries of "No, no."]
  That was his olive-branch; and, as it did not seem to be acceptable, he would only say that he believed the County Council had no intention in any way to exclude anything from the arbitration which might be favourable to the Companies.
  SIR HENRY JAMESbelieved the House was getting into an unnecessary mess, which could be avoided if matters were allowed to take their natural course. If the special instructions in clause 6 were struck out there would be no difficulty. The Arbitrator would be bound to take into consideration everything on one side and on the other, favourable and unfavourable, and, if it were thought that he made any mistake, either party could obtain the opinion of the Judges as to whether any ingredient had been unduly considered
  1410
  or left out of consideration. If the instructions in Clause 6 were in accordance with the existing law of compensation they were not required, and they would only confuse the Arbitrator; but, if they referred to subjects which ought not to be taken into consideration, then they were put in specially in derogation of the rights of the Company and in order to prevent them obtaining proper compensation. If the House would only say to the promoters of the Bill, "The special instructions shall come out," no instruction to the Committee would be necessary. If the promoters would not consent, it would be evident that the considerations named were intended to take away from the Companies something they were entitled to get.
  MR. J. STUARTsaid, he could not withdraw Clause 6, but was perfectly prepared to give locus standi to all the Companies in the first Bill—[An hon. MEMBER: "You can't"]—on the understanding that the Second Reading of the other Bills was deferred.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of Question."
  House divided:—Ayes, 187; Noes 149.—(Division List, No. 11.)
  Motion agreed to.
  Ordered,—That the Bill be referred to a Select Committee of Nine Members, Four to be nominated by the House, and Five by the Committee of Selection.—(Mr. James Stuart.)
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That subject to the Rules, Orders, and Proceedings of this House, all Petitions against the said Bill be referred to the Committee; and such of the Petitioners as pray to be heard by themselves, their Counsel, Agents, or Witnesses, be heard on their Petitions against the Bill, if they think fit, and Counsel heard in support of the said Bill against such Petitions.—(Mr. James stuart.)
  Amendment proposed, in line 1, to leave out the words "subject to the Rules, Orders, and Proceedings of this House."—(Mr. Boulnois.)
  The hon. Member objected to the appointment of a Hybrid Committee, and contended that the ordinary course should be followed and the Bill referred to a Committee appointed by the

  1411
  Committee of Selection. A Hybrid Committee did not partake of the same judicial character, and added enormously to the cost both to promoters and opposers. He quoted the opinion of the Secretary of State for India (Mr. H. H. Fowler), when President of the Local Government Board, in support of his contention, and hoped the hon. Member in charge of the Bill would consent to its being referred to an ordinary Committee.
  MR. E. B. HOAREagreed with the remarks of the previous speaker. In Hybrid Committees, the Divisions were on Party lines and he had known an hon. Member vote purely as a Party man without a having heard any of the evidence. He hoped the House would consent to the Bill being referred to an ordinary Select Committee.
  MR. STUARTreminded hon. Members that the proposed Committee was similar to that which dealt with the Streets and Buildings Bill, and gave so much satisfaction, last year. The promoters of the Bill thought it was much too important to be referred to an ordinary Committee and divisions on Party lines had been guarded against.
  MR. GOSCHENwished to ask those best acquainted with the practice of the House, what was the ordinary way in which a Bill for Birmingham or Liverpool would be dealt with. His impression was that they were never referred to Private Bill Committees, and he did not see why they should depart from the usual practice and refer this Bill to the same kind of Committee as Bills from the municipalities of the places he had referred to.
  MR. STUARTsaid, he could not accept the Amendment, as they desired that petitions might be presented within six days of the sittings of the Committee, and to give a locus standi to Water Companies whose interests might be considered to be prejudiced.
  SIR R. E. WEBSTERsaid, the London County Council were assuming to themselves the powers of the House. If other Water Companies than those immediately concerned were to have a locus standi words should be inserted specially providing for it.
  MR. STUARTsaid that should be done. If there was any difficulty he would give notice of his intention to
  1412
  move the insertion of the necessary words.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.
  Ordered,—That subject to the Rules, Orders, and Proceedings of this House, all Petitions against the said Bill be referred to the Committee; and such of the Petitioners as pray to be heard by themselves, their Counsel, Agents, or Witnesses, be heard on their Petitions against the Bill, if they think fit, and Counsel heard in support of the said Bill against such Petitions.
  Ordered,—That the Committee have power to send for Persons, Papers, and Records.
  Ordered,—That Seven be the Quorum.—(Mr. James Stuart.)
  MR. F. G. BANBURYmoved:—
  "That it be an Instruction to the Committee to provide that the Arbitration shall be an open Arbitration, and that the Arbitrator shall consider impartially all points that are favourable to either side."
  The hon. Member remarked that the effect of his Instruction would be that instead of those points which were favourable to the County Council being alone considered, the points which were favourable to the Water Companies would be considered also. Thirty or forty millions of money were involved in this rate. These were undertakings in which people had invested their money on the faith of an Act of Parliament.
  MR. STUARTdeclined to accept the instruction, but said they were willing to insert the words suggested by the Under Secretary for the Colonies, which would do all that was necessary.
  SIR R. E. WEBSTERpointed out that the County Councils could scarcely refuse this instruction. They would be prepared to assent to the Arbitrator being allowed to take into consideration what was fair to either side. Why then, if those were the terms on which the Arbitrator was to preside, was he to have specific directions given to him which referred only to one side. He was quite sure his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer would agree that every single clause of these

  1413
  directions was intended to depreciate—whether fairly or unfairly the property of the water companies.
  House divided:—Ayes, 143; Noes, 157.—(Division List, No. 12.)
  MR. STUARTgave notice that he would move on Monday, 25th February, that the Committee have power to insert in the Bill directions to the Arbitrator to take into consideration any points favourable to either Party in addition to those specified in the Bill.
  MR. C. A. WHITMOREmoved:—
  "That it be an Instruction to the Committee to insert a Clause providing that the said Bill shall not become law until the whole of the Bills dealing with the purchase of the London Water Companies by the London County Council have received the Royal Assent."
  The hon. Member said that if a Central Representative Body was to acquire the Water Companies at a fair price, the transactions should be carried out as a whole, and not in a piecemeal manner.
  MR. STUARTsaid he could not accept the Instruction, because there might be Bills rejected by the House and others passed.
  Motion put, and negatived.
  MR. E. BOULNOISmoved:—
  "That it be an Instruction to the Committee to delay proceeding with the consideration of the Lambeth Water (Transfer) Bill and the Southwark and Vauxhall Water (Transfer) Bill until the remaining six Water (Transfer) Bills have been read a second time and referred to the same Committee."
  The hon. Member said he would simply move the Instruction formally, although he attached great importance to it.
  MR. STUARTsaid, the Instruction was in direct opposition to the arrangement arrived at by the House, namely, that they should defer the other Bills, go on with the two in question through the Committee, and get the locus standi upon them. He therefore could not accept the Instruction moved. He would put down on Monday a form of words which would give the locus standi to the two Bills.
  MR. T. F. HALSEYwished to point out that there were several Local Authorities affected by those Bills, and one, in particular, to a
  1414
  very large extent. He wished to know whether locus standi would be accorded to those Local Authorities whom, he thought, it would be very unfair to shut out.
  MR. STUARTsaid, he should like to consider this question before giving an answer to it, because he did not know to what it might lead. He was not satisfied that it would not lead to great difficulty on the Committee. He would, however, be prepared to answer the question on Monday.
  SIR J. SAVORYasked, whether the Corporation of London would have a locus standi on the question.
  MR. STUARTsaid he did not understand that the London Corporation opposed the Bills.
  SIR J. SAVORY: They are opposing them.
  MR. STUARTsaid he could not answer the question then.
  Motion put, and negatived.

  SOUTHWARK AND VAUXHALL WATER (TRANSFER) BILL.
  By Order—
  Read 2o, and referred to a Select Committee to consist of Nine Members, four to be nominated by the House, and five by the Committee of Selection.
  Ordered,—That subject to the Rules, Orders, and Proceedings of this House, all Petitions against the said Bill be referred to the Committee; and such of the Petitioners as pray to be heard by themselves, their counsel, agents, or witnesses, be heard on their Petitions against the Bill, if they think fit, and counsel heard in support of the said Bill against such Petitions.
  Ordered,—That the Committee have power to send for Persons, Papers, and Records.
  Ordered,—That Seven be the Quorum.—(Mr. James Stuart.)

  LONDON (BOUNDARY STREET, BETHNAL GREEN) PROVISIONAL ORDER.
  Bill to confirm a Provisional Order made by one of Her Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State for modifying the London (Boundary Street, Bethnal Green) Improvement Scheme 1890, ordered to be brought in by Mr. G. W. E. Russell and Mr. Asquith.
  LONDON (BOUNDARY STREET, BETHNAL GREEN) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
  Bill to confirm a Provisional Order made by one of Her Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State for modifying the London (Boundary Street, Bethnal Green) Improvement Scheme 1890. Referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 138.]

  A POINT OF ORDER.
  *MR. J. T. BRUNNERdesired to bring to the notice of the Speaker a matter which he had submitted to him privately in writing, and of which he had given private notice to the right hon. Member for West Birmingham. He desired to know whether the right hon. Member for West Birmingham voted in last night's Division on the Motion of the right hon. Member for Bury, and whether the right hon. Member for West Birmingham endeavoured to pass out by the door facing the Chair after that door was locked, and whether the Serjeant-at-Arms refused to allow him to do so. He was informed that the right hon. Gentleman was in his place when the question was put, and if he was right in the statements suggested in the question; it remained for him to ask whether, under the circumstances, the right hon. Gentleman ought not to have recorded his vote?
  MR. C. DIAMONDdesired to supplement the question of the right hon. Member for the Northwich Division of Cheshire by directing the attention of the Speaker to the fact that several Nationalist Members were named and suspended on February 3, 1881, because, having heard the question put, they refused to vote; and it was desirable that the House should have the Speaker's ruling, so that hon. Members might know whether they might not openly refuse to vote, and might escape by the subterfuge of playing a game of hide-and-seek with the officials of the House.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Allow me to say that I did not hear the question put.
  *MR. SPEAKER: I think it is too late to bring the matter forward now. It should have been brought to my notice yesterday immediately after the division, either before the numbers were declared or immediately after. Hon. Members who were present in the Lobby
  1416
  would have observed the action or non-action of the right hon. Gentleman, and, if it were to be noticed at all, it was their duty to have brought the matter immediately before me. With refrence to what the hon. Member for Monaghan has stated, I am sorry to have to revert to a matter so painful as that was. I was not Speaker at the time, but I well recollect the circumstance. The Irish Members were called on to leave the House to take part in the Division then in progress, and they declined to do so. The Speaker of that day, observing that a similar occurrence had happened shortly before, told them that it was their duty to leave the House and take part in the Division, and on their persistent refusal submitted their conduct to the House. That, however, is an entirely different question from the one now raised, and there is no analogy between the two cases.
  *MR. BRUNNER: Will you allow me, Mr. Speaker, to bring to your notice what Sir Erskine May has said on this question? In his "Parliamentary Practice," page 338, in the chapter on "Divisions," he says:—
  "A Member who is within the folding doors of the House when the question is put from the Chair for the first or second time must give his vote. If he has not heard the question put, either the first or the second time, the question is again stated to him from the Chair, and if he has entered a Division Lobby he may therefore claim to give his vote irrespective of the Division Lobby into which he may have passed. If a Member has heard the question put, then his vote must accord with the Division Lobby that he has entered."
  And in a note on the same page Sir Erskine May adds—
  "The rooms behind the Speaker's Chair are not within the House for the purposes of a Division, and Members may retire to these rooms after the House has been cleared for a Division, and before the question has been put from the Chair a second time."
  The right hon. Gentleman did not retire from the House before the question was put a second time, but afterwards.
  *MR. SPEAKER: The case referred to does not now arise, and I cannot go into that matter now. If the hon. Member asks for my ruling on the general question involved I shall be happy to give it. The general rule is, that Members who have heard the question put, either the first or second time, ought to go into the Lobby and vote. I have known the side

  1417
  door held open that Members in the Division Lobby might hear the question put. It is as well, however, not to insist upon Members having heard the question put, because owing to the imperfect accommodation of the House this is frequently impossible; but, speaking generally, Members within the folding doors should record their votes. The hon. Gentleman has alluded to the rooms behind the Chair. There was a case in which Sir Henry Drummond Wolff, then a Member of this House, called the attention of the Speaker to the fact that several Members on the Treasury Bench deliberately left their seats on a Division being called, and did not appear in either Division Lobby. The Speaker of that day ruled that they were intitled to withdraw. Though Members go into the Lobby, I do not know that it is absolutely imperative that they should vote. Members go into the Lobby, but to my knowledge they do not always come out of the Lobby. I do not think it is possible for the House to maintain that a Member shall be forced to vote. I think it would lead to some very disagreeable consequences if all Members in the House were forced to vote, but it is convenient that they should withdraw before the question is finally put. Some Members are accidentally shut within the outer doors of the House and do not wish to record their vote, and there are means of escape which are known to Members. No Member is allowed, after the outer doors are closed, as they were on this occasion by the Serjeant-at Arms, to have egress from the House into the outer Lobby. What becomes of him inside the doors is another matter.
  *MR. BRUNNER: I wish to add, as one who will always pay respect to you, that it was impossible for me, until the Division List came into my hands this morning, to know that the right hon. Gentleman had not voted.

QUESTIONS.

  PRISON OFFICIALS.
  SIR A. K. ROLLIT: I
  beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether there exists in any other Department under his
  1418
  control any such Order as that recently issued in the Prison Department, prohibiting testimonials or subscriptions being raised among the officials under any circumstances; and, whether lie will consider the advisability of recommending the withdrawal of such an Order, as appertaining to a Civil Service Department?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. H. H. ASQUITH,): The Metropolitan Police Orders provide that subscriptions or testimonials from police officers are not to be received by officers removed from one district to another if they are still serving in the Police, and the Prison Department Order, copying that rule, prohibits the receiving of testimonials by any officer while in the service, or of subscriptions on transfer from one station to another, or any other occasion. In services of this kind it has been found to be undesirable that an officer should receive testimonials or subscriptions from other officers who may come under him as subordinates; by doing so he would put himself under an obligation to them which might not always be compatible with the strict discharge of his duty. The rule does not apply to the case of officers leaving the service.

  INTERCOLONIAL TRADE.
  MR. W. F. LAWRENCE: On behalf of the Member for the Central Division of Sheffield (Colonel C. E. Howard Vincent), I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if the promised consideration has yet resulted in notice being given to Belgium and to Germany to terminate the clause in the British Treaty of Commerce precluding British Colonies from giving better terms to British goods than to foreign goods, in accordance with the recommendations of the Ottawa Conference and of Her Majesty's Imperial Commissioner; and, if not, what is the reason for the delay?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir E. GREY,): I understand that the question of Intercolonial Trade is, as stated the other day, under consideration. Her Majesty's Government have no Treaty right to give notice for the termination of special clauses mentioned

  1419
  in the question separately—without the abrogation of the entire Treaties of which they form part; and therefore no such notice has been given.

  PARISH COUNCILS.
  MR. H. L. W. LAWSON: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether any discretion is given to any County Council under the Local Government Act of 1894 to refuse an application from a duly constituted parish meeting for the establishment of a Parish Council; whether his attention has been drawn to the action of the Gloucestershire County Council in adjourning the consideration of such request for one month, and to the official letter of their clerk asking certain parishes to reconsider their decision, in view of the provisions of the 19th Section of the Act; and, whether it is within their province to take such proceedings in order to postpone or prevent the constitution of a Parish Council in the usual way; if not, whether he will issue a Circular to County Councils in England to prevent the repetition of such attempts?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (MR. G. J. SHAW-LEFEVRE,: My attention has been drawn to the action of the Gloucestershire County Council referred to in the question, and totheir official letter. The Local Government Act, 1894, provides that if a parish meeting of a rural parish, having a population of 100 or upwards, so resolve, the County Council shall provide for establishing a Parish Council in the parish. In such a case a County Council have no power to refuse the application, and it appears to me that they would not be justified in taking any action to prevent the constitution of a Parish Council. I am informed, however, that the Gloucestershire County Council were under the impression that some further regulations on the part of the Local Government Board were necessary before they would make orders establishing Parish Councils, and I am in communication with them as to this. I have no reason to suppose that there is any indisposition on the part of County Councils generally to establish Parish Councils where application is made to them for the purpose, and hence it does
  1420
  not seem to me necessary to issue any Circular on the subject.

  AN INTERMENT REFUSED.
  MR. H. J. WILSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been directed to the action of the Rev. John Prowde, vicar of Netherthong, in the Holmfirth Division, who has refused to permit the interment of the body of Mellen Cook in a family grave, on the ground that the deceased and his widowed mother were non-resident, unless she would allow him to conduct the funeral service; and whether the vicar was within his legal rights; and, if so, whether steps will be taken to amend the law?
  MR. ASQUITH: My attention has been called to this case. The legality of the vicar's action appears to depend on the question whether or not the deceased had a right of interment in the grave in Netherthong Churchyard, and I have not sufficient materials before me to enable me to determine that question; but in any case, I think the course adopted by the vicar is greatly to be regretted. As a Bill has been brought in by the hon. Member for the Mansfield Division of Notts which deals with questions affecting burials and burial services, I would rather postpone until that Bill comes on any expression of opinion as to possible alterations in the law.

  THE LABOURERS' ACTS.
  MR. S. YOUNG: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Guardians of Cootehill Union have refused to make an improvement scheme under the Labourers' Acts, as recommended by Mr. Kelly, the Local Board Inspector; whether the Local Government Board have appointed a vice-guardian to carry out the Labourer's Acts in the Union; whether several representations have been made to the Local Government Board from Cootehill Dispensary District for an inquiry under Section 4 of the Act of 1891; and whether the Local Government Board have yet ordered such inquiry?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. J. MORLEY,: The fact is as stated in

  1421
  the first paragraph. The Local Government Board have made an Order giving authority to their inspector to carry out the Labourers' Acts in this Union. Representations were received, as stated, from the Cootehill Dispensary District, and will now be dealt with by the Board's Inspector acting as the Rural Sanitary Authority. The Board informed the Solicitor for the applicants to this effect on the 29th December last.

  INDIAN STAMPS.
  MR. HENNIKER HEATON: I beg to ask the Postmaster General—whether, in the case of Indian stamps, the likeness of the Queen-Empress in Angeli's Jubilee portrait is always given on any new stamp denoting a new rate of duty: whether the late Mr. Raikes caused the likeness on the foreign postcard to be taken from the same portrait; and whether he, following this precedent, will direct that in future, at least in the case of new adhesive British stamps being required, the Angeli likeness, or one equally good and recent, shall be impressed upon them?
  THE POSTMASTER GENERAL (Mr. ARNOLD MORLEY,: The likeness of her Majesty taken from Angeli's Jubilee portrait which has appeared on certain Indian stamps of recent issue is, I am informed, to be adopted for any further new Indian stamps required. The likeness on the foreign postcard introduced by the late Mr. Raikes was taken from the same portrait. I cannot pledge myself at this moment in regard to the design to be adopted for British stamps of new values hereafter, but the likeness of Her Majesty is one of the points which will have to be considered.

  PATENT AGENTS BILLS.
  *MR. T. H. BOLTON: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade what the Government propose to do with regard to the Report of the Select Committee of last Session on the Patent Agents Bills?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. J. BRYCE,): The Select Committee of last Session appeared to consider that proper opportunity should be given for some such Bill as that which they reported
  1422
  last Session to be passed at the instance of a private Member, and the Board of Trade, therefore, propose to await for the present such action by some private Member.
  *MR. T. H. BOLTON: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the conduct of those who at present control the register of patent agents has not been so unsatisfactory recently that the Board of Trade have had to interfere to correct their arbitrary conduct; and having regard to that, whether he has considered the propriety of giving effect to another recommendation of the Committee that the Board of Trade should take the register of patent agents into their own hands, and appoint a registrar?
  MR. J. BRYCE: The register is not satisfactorily conducted, but it does not follow that this matter should be undertaken by a Public Department, and, as at present advised, I am inclined to doubt the desirability of that course.

  DISTRESS IN IRELAND.
  MR. D. SHEEHY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the resolutions of the Gort Board of Guardians, passed on the 16th instant, relative to the distress now prevailing in the Union; and whether the suggestion made in the resolution, that the road from Ballyturin to Gort (commenced in 1848, resumed in 1882) be now finished, will be at once accepted by the Local Government Board.
  MR. J. MORLEY: The resolution in question has been brought under my notice. I am informed that the rates in this Union are moderate and that there is no increase in the number of applications for relief as compared with last year. Upon ohe information at present before the Local Government Board, they are of opinion that the resources of the Union are sufficient to meet any destitution which has so far arisen in the district.

  IRISH VOTERS LIST.
  MR. SHEEHY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that, in the Return (No. 300) showing the amounts received by the county and borough Treasurers in Ireland from the Clerks of the Peace in respect of the

  1423
  sale of copies of the Registers of Voters and Supplemental Lists, no receipts appear to have been credited for the years noted in the Return for the Counties of Westmeath, Cork and Galway; whether it is the practice of the Clerks of the Peace in these constituencies to charge for copies as required by Statute; and could he explain why the amounts have not been placed to the credit of the county and borough Treasurers respectively; whether he can state if, in any of these cases, any moneys have been credited since the passing of the Act requiring the same to be done in 1850; and how it has happened that the responsible Auditors of the Local Government Board, who audit the Grand Jury accounts twice a year, have not called attention to the matter; whether he is also aware that in the Return no sum appears anywhere audited under the heading of "Fines" for bogus claims and objections, although it is notorious that these are made in thousands annually; and who is to blame for the neglect?
  MR. J. MORLEY: The Return was prepared in accordance with the information supplied by the Treasurers of the counties and boroughs named in the question. I am in communication with these gentlemen, and with the Local Government Board, and will ask the hon. Gentleman to defer the question for a few days.

  THE CZAR AND THE SCOTS GREYS.
  MR. T. W. LEGH: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Officers taking part in the recent military mission to the Emperor of Russia have been permitted to accept and wear a Russian Order, whereas the Regulations state that such permission shall not be granted to any British subject except in consequence of active and distinguished service before the enemy; and, if he can state why the Regulations relating to Foreign Orders are strictly enforced against members of the Diplomatic Service, but habitually relaxed in favour of persons employed in missions of the character indicated?
  SIR E. GREY: Permission to wear the Order has not been granted to these Officers under the Regulations, and no warrant has been or will
  1424
  be prepared for that purpose. It is manifest that the Queen may, when Her Majesty sees fit, make exceptions to the Regulations, and it is understood that she has given her personal permission in this case as in that of the Officers who proceeded to Berlin under similar circumstances.

  IRISH MAILS.
  MR. F. A. O'KEEFFE: I beg to ask the Postmaster General if his attention has been directed to the many memorials requesting a car service, cross countrywise, to meet the Dublin morning mail, passing from Limerick, at Ardrollus, County Clare, at about half-past eleven o'clock; and, whether he will endeavour to meet the wishes of the inhabitants of Tulla, county Clare, and district, numbering nearly 4,000 persons, for this communication, which would secure a delivery of mails and papers one day in advance, and would, it is estimated, pay its expenses by passenger traffic?
  MR. ARNOLD MORLEY: The applications which I have received upon this subject contemplate the postponement of the morning delivery at Tulla until past mid-day for the purpose of including therein the letters arriving by the day mail from Dublin. But such a change would cause delay to five times as many letters as it would benefit, and would be attended with very serious inconvenience. It could not, moreover, be carried out except at a considerable increase of expense, which the circumstances do not warrant.
  MR. O'KEEFFEasked whether the right hon. Gentleman would not try an experiment in this matter, as the extra cost would only be about 15s. a week.
  MR. ARNOLD MORLEYpromised to consider any representations the hon. Member might lay before him on the subject.

  ARMY RESERVE PAY.
  MR. D. SULLIVAN: I beg to ask the Secretary for War whether Patrick O'Neill, late Corporal Army Reserve (1st Depot Division Field Artillery) has had a sum of £23 stopped from his reserve pay because of two-and-a-half years' absence in America, where he had gone to visit his friends, notwithstanding that he apprised the paymaster as to his whereabouts, and gave

  1425
  an undertaking to return at any time at his own expense on being summoned; whether he is aware that O'Neill's discharge describes him as of very good character, thoroughly trustworthy, very handy, and fit for any position of trust; and that O'Neill suffers from deafness arising from having been treated with quinine while in a military hospital in India suffering from fever and ague, and is thereby incapacitated from many kinds of employment; whether, under these circumstances, he will consider whether his reserve pay might be allowed to him; and, whether it would be possible to provide him with some employment in the Army Clothing Department, in which his deafness would not be a disqualification?
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN,: Reserve pay is essentially a retainer, in virtue of which the soldier is required to be at all times available should he be called on to serve. If a reservist quits the United Kingdom without leave he obviously violates this condition, and his reserve pay is necessarily forfeited during his absence. There is nothing against the character of O'Neill, but that fact would not justify the restoration of his forfeited pay. There is nothing in his military medical history to bear out his statement as to the cause of his deafness. There is no vacancy in the Army Clothing Department to which this man can be appointed.

  OIL FUEL.
  MR. T. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether Her Majesty's Government have received information to the effect that any vessels of any foreign navies are being fitted for the use of oil fuel instead of, or in addition to, coal; whether the substitution of oil fuel for coal fuel has the effect of doubling or trebling the fuel endurance of the vessel in which it is effected; when the last experiments were made by or under the supervision of the Admiralty with a view to test the relative advantages of oil fuel and coal; whether it is proposed to make any further experiments of a similar kind; and, what is the present conclusion which has been reached by
  1426
  the Admiralty relative to the employment of oil fuel?
  THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. E. ROBERTSON,: Full information has been received by the Admiralty in regard to the use of oil fuel in foreign navies. The substitution of such fuel for coal does not, in the opinion of our advisers, treble or even double the fuel endurance of a vessel. The last experiments made under the supervision of Admiralty officers to test the relative values of oil and coal fuel were in 1889, and it is not at present proposed to carry out further experiments of a similar kind. The present conclusion of the Admiralty is that, on the whole, coal is to be preferred to oil fuel in Her Majesty's ships.

  DISTRESS IN IRELAND.
  MR. T. SEXTON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, what measures have been adopted, or determined upon, for the purpose of dealing with the exceptional distress prevailing in the Listowel (County Kerry) Poor Law Union, owing to the failure of the potato crop and the general want of employment for labourers, as testified by evidence of the ex-officio and elected Guardians, Rate Collectors, and Relieving Officers in November last, and by repeated and urgent resolutions of the Board of Guardians since?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (MR. J. MORLEY,: The information received by the Local Government Board with regard to Listowel Union, within the last few days, is to the effect that the number of persons on outdoor relief compares very favourably with the number at corresponding period of last year, there being a decrease of 337, while the number of persons in the workhouse has not sensibly increased. The Relieving Officers' reports are also satisfactory. Under these circumstances, there does not appear to be sufficient reason at present to adopt exceptional measures for relief of the people. However, careful inquiries will be made from time to time into the circumstances of the people.
  MR. SEXTON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, whether he is aware that the construction of a boatslip at

  1427
  Ballyheigue, County Kerry, the outlay for which was sanctioned several months ago by the Congested Districts Board, has not yet been commenced; and that the cause assigned for this extended delay is that the Board are awaiting the sanction of the Admiralty; and whether, in view of the pressing want of employment, and the urgent need of this work, in the interest of the fishing population, the necessary sanction will be given without further delay?
  MR. J. MORLEY: I am informed that the Admiralty have now given their consent to the improvements proposed to be carried out on this boatslip, and the work will no doubt be proceeded with without delay.
  MR. M. M. BODKIN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, if his attention has been called to the meeting of the people of County Roscommon and County Mayo, held at Ballybodreen, at which a resolution was passed urging the Government to assist in the drainage of a small part of the river Lung, both as a relief work to give employment to the starving inhabitants of the district and on account of the great and permanent advantage such work would afford to the neighbouring occupiers of land; is he aware that the general objection which he stated to drainage relief works, that the labour should be imported, does not apply in this case, as there is a large though very poor population in the district by whom the work could be carried out; and, if he will give his favourable consideration, and, if possible, have a local inspection to ascertain the extreme advantage and feasibility of the proposed work, and the willingness of the inhabitants whose lands are injuriously affected to assist according to their means in carrying it into effect?
  MR. J. MORLEY: The attention of the Local Government Board has been drawn to the Resolution referred to. I have no doubt the drainage work mentioned by my hon. and learned Friend would be one of public utility, but I must remind him that it is only intended to adopt exceptional measures of relief by the opening of works, where the circumstances of small landholders are likely to become so straitened owing to the partial failure of the potato crop that they would be pressed for sufficient
  1428
  food for themselves and their families. The Local Government Board advise me that they have no grounds for apprehending that the condition of the people in this district will reach this stage, on that it will be necessary to open relief works.
  MR. BODKIN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if his attention has been called to a resolution unanimously passed by the Castlerea Board of Guardians, pointing to the extreme poverty of the people and the sterility of the soil in the parish of Kiltulla, and the complete failure of the potato crop in the district, declaring that the people are now on the brink of famine, and urging that relief works may be at once set on foot to save them from absolute starvation; and will he give this representation his early and favourable consideration?
  MR. J. MORLEY: I have been furnished with a copy of the resolution in question. From the repeated and careful inquiries which have been made into the condition of the people in this district, the Local Government Board believe that any cases of sporadic distress which may arise can be better met through the agency of the Poor Laws than by the establishment of relief works, and the Board have authorised the Guardians, if necessary, to temporarily relax the restrictions upon the granting of outdoor relief. Further inquiries are now in progress as to the condition of the people.
  MR. BODKINasked whether the Chief Secretary would make further inquiries on this subject, as he had been into the district, and found there had been a total failure of the potato crop?
  MR. J. MORLEY: I do not know whether it as gone has far as that, but no doubt there has been serious failure.

  EXTRA POLICE IN COUNTY KERRY.
  MR. SEXTON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland what is now the number of extra police in the County of Kerry, and what is the amount of the annual charge for them upon the county funds; whether there is anything exceptional in the condition of the county in respect to agrarian or ordinary crime; and when it may be expected that the extra charge will cease?
  MR. J. MORLEY: The extra force of Kerry consists at present of 111 men, and there are also in the county 5 men of the reserve force. The cost to the county of this extra force would be about £3,700 per annum, and of the reserve force about £172, making a total annual charge of say £3,870, all of which is levied off the county at large. Recently 16 men of the reserve force have been absorbed into the free quota, and it has been decided to reduce the extra force from 111 to 96 men. This reduction will carried out before the 1st April, and both reductions will be equivalent to a relief of over £1,000 per annum in the future charge to the county and districts concerned. Six years ago the number of extra police in the county was 375. With reference to the second paragraph, there is nothing exceptional in the condition of Kerry in respect to crime. On the contrary, there has been a marked improvement in the state of the county from this point of view, both in regard to agrarian and non-agrarian crime. The number of extra police in a county does not, however, so much depend upon the number of outrages committed as upon the number of cases in which special police protection has to be given to individuals, and having regard to the demands made upon the county establishment in this respect it is not possible at present to reduce the extra force beyond the limit which I have indicated.
  MR. SEXTONasked whether, as this monstrous charge upon one of the poorest counties in Ireland depended entirely on personal protection, the Chief Secretary would give directions for an investigation into the circumstances of the protection, and to see how many, and what was the nature of the cases which rendered the garrisoning of the county necessary.
  MR. J. MORLEYsaid, that on the 31st December 1892, there were 98 persons protected, and the number of police employed in that duty was 134. On the 31st December 1894, the number of persons protected had gone up from 98 to 110, and the number of police protecting them went up to 171. There were 77 police stations in the county.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLasked what kind of people were under protection?
  MR. J. MORLEY: I have not got all the Kerry cases in my mind, but I will look through them, and shall be glad to answer another question if it is addressed to me.
  MR. SEXTONasked whether the right hon. Gentleman would see whether protection was really necessary?
  MR. J. MORLEYsaid he would look over the cases and see.

  PRIVATE BILL PROCEDURE IN SCOTLAND.
  MR. W. THORBURN: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland, whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce a Bill this Session for the Reform of Private Bill Procedure in Scotland?
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Sir G. O. TREVELYAN,: The Government have prepared a Bill for the Reform of Private Procedure in Scotland, which they will introduce and hope to pass into law.

  INCORRIGIBLE CHILDREN.
  MR. W. JOHNSTON: On behalf of the hon. Member for North Fermanagh (Mr. R. M. Dane), I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, whether his attention has been attracted to a resolution recently unanimously passed by the Enniskillen School Attendance Committee, asking for an Amendment of the Irish Education Act of 1892, granting further power to deal with incorrigible children, through their parents, in the manner prescribed by Section 16 of the English Industrial Schools Act of 1866; and whether it is the intention of the Irish Government to take action in this direction?
  MR. J. MORLEY: My attention has been drawn to the resolution in question, and I brought it under the notice of the National Education Commissioners. The Commissioners inform me they do not consider that the number of incorrigible or truant children in Ireland is sufficient to warrant them in recommending that any provision should be made in the Amending Bill for dealing with such children. It is not, therefore, intented to take action in this direction.

  MEETING DISTURBED IN IRELAND.
  MR. J. C. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord

  1431
  Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the proceedings at a meeting of tenant farmers in Stewartstown, County Tyrone, on the 19th inst., held in support of the Report of the Select Committee on the Land Question; is he aware that the proceedings were interrupted by a number of Orange youths, who indulged in shouting and beating drums, and afterwards attacked the promoters of the meeting; and, were the police present; and, if so, why did they not intervene to protect a meeting held for a lawful purpose?
  MR. J. MORLEY: The meeting to which reference is apparently made was held, not at Stewartstown, but at Clonmacate, in the Portadown district. I am informed that there was no organised opposition to the meeting prior to its being held, but that when it assembled some of the lower class of Unionists turned out with three drums and commenced to beat them in the vicinity of the meeting, whilst some got on the platform and interrupted the proceedings by shouting. No assault, however, was committed. A number of Orangemen attended the meeting as supporters of the object with which it was held, and no opposition was created by this body. The disturbance was solely the work of some low-class Unionists. The police were in the vicinity of the meeting, but not actually present at the proceedings, and the promoters of the meeting did not call for their services.
  MR. BODKINasked if these disturbers of the meeting were stimulated by loyalty or otherwise.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLpointed out that Portadown was not in the County of Tyrone.
  MR. ALPHEUS C. MORTON: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what is a low-class Unionist.

  ALDERSHOT WATER SUPPLY.
  MR. R. W. HANBURY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether samples of the water supplying the Camp at Aldershot, and particularly water taken from a tank supplying the Officers' Mess, Tournay Barracks, Marlborough Lines, have been on examination found contaminated with animal and vegetable matter; how many cases of enteric fever occurred during the last year at Aldershot; to what cause or causes have they been traced; and,
  1432
  what steps are being taken with regard to the drainage generally of the camp?
  *MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Samples of the water from the Bourley Reservoir, whence the Tournay Barracks were supplied, have been found to be contaminated. The supply was immediately cut off from the Camp and barracks; and all necessary steps are being taken to provide good water from the Aldershot Waterworks. During the year 1894 there occurred at Aldershot four cases of enteric fever among officers and seven amongst the men. Out of these 11 cases, four are stated to have been contracted outside Aldershot; one was in the person of an orderly who had nursed an enteric patient; in one case the milk supply was suspected; two were attributed to unsatisfactory sanitation, and the origin of the remaing three cases was considered doubtful. The reconstruction of the whole of the drainage of the camp is in hand, and considerable progress has been made with it—Stanhope Lines are completed, Marlborough Lines will shortly be so, and Wellington Lines are well in hand. Arrangements are under consideration which would enable the sewage farm to be closed.

  SENTRY DUTY IN LONDON.
  MR. R. W. HANBURY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what was the extent of the reduction in the number of sentries in London which took place in 1892; at what public buildings, other than barracks, are they still posted; whether the number of night sentries especially was largely reduced, and in what proportion; whether his attention has been drawn to the statement of the Duke of Connaught before the Wantage Committee, that this sentry duty, especially night duty, was injurious to the health, the instruction, and the recruiting of the Army, and that, in consequence of his urgent representations, what he described as the immense number of sentries at Windsor and Buckingham Palace were reduced, in spite of the greatest possible opposition from the Home Office on the ground that the place of the sentries would have to be taken by the police; and, whether he will undertake that Army funds shall be expended on military instead of police duties?
  *MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The number of sentries reduced in

  1433
  London in 1892 was five by day and six by night. The buildings, other than barracks, where sentries are still posted are Kensington, St. James's, and Buckingham Palaces, Marlborough House, the War Office, the Horse Guards, Whitehall, the Bank of England, the Tower of London, and the Hyde Park Magazine. The night sentries were reduced from 33 to 27. The Report of the Wantage Committee was fully considered; and, as I stated on the 12th instant, the number of sentries was brought as low as was considered right. A reduction of four sentries by day and five by night was made at Windsor for such times as Her Majesty might not be in residence.
  MR. HANBURYasked whether it was a fact that this reduction took place in face of great opposition from the Home Office?
  *MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid, he had not heard of any such opposition.

  ACQUISITION OF ALLOTMENT LAND.
  MR. H. L. W. LAWSON: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if he has received a memorial from Tetbury Urban District Council praying that the powers of a Parish Council in respect of the acquisition of allotment land may be conferred upon them; and, if, in view of the urgent need of such powers, he will give it immediate attention?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. SHAW-LEFEVRE,: I have received an application from the Tetbury Urban District Council to have conferred on them all the powers of a Parish Council, and I am now in communication with them on the subject.

  NEWFOUNDLAND.
  SIR FRANCIS EVANS: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies if the Government will agree to the Motion for a Return relating to the present financial crisis in Newfoundland, which stands on this day's Paper?
  SIR E. GREY: The correspondence at present is telegraphic, and therefore incomplete; but if my hon. Friend will move in the usual form we will give the official telegrams up to date.

  PARISH COUNCIL ELECTIONS.
  MR. W. MOUNT: On
  1434
  behalf of the Member for the Tewkesbury Division of Gloucester, (Sir J. E. Dorington), I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board when regulations under Section 57 of The Local Government Act, 1888, applicable to the creation of Parish Councils in parishes under 300 population will be issued; and whether rules under Section 48 of the Local Government Act, 1894, are being prepared for the conduct of elections of such Parish Councils and for casual vacancies, those at present issued being only applicable to the past year?
  MR. SHAW-LEFEVRE: There are at present in force regulations under Section 57 of the Local Government Act, 1888, and these regulations apply to the steps to be taken when an order has been made by a County Council to establish a Parish Council. The Local Government Board have, however, in preparation new regulations under the section, and these will be issued as early as practicable. Rules for the election of Parish Councillors in cases where County Councils have established Parish Councils have now been issued. Casual vacancies amongst Parish Councillors will be filled up by the Parish Council, so that in such cases no rules as to elections will be required.

  WATER RATE DURING THE FROST.
  MR. JAMES ROWLANDS: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that a heavy burden has been placed upon inhabitants of the Metropolis by their being compelled to pay for water being conveyed to their houses; and whether, under these circumstances, he can make any representation to the water companies to waive some portion of their water rate, or whether at least they can be asked to forego their power of collecting their water rate one quarter in advance?
  MR. SHAW-LEFEVRE: I regret that any inhabitants of the Metropolis should have had to pay for water being conveyed to their houses during the recent frost, but as I have no power to compel the companies to reduce their charges, it would not be within my province to make representations to them to that effect.
  SIR WILFRID LAWSON: Does the right

  1435
  hon. Gentleman mean to say that these companies have power to charge for an article they do not supply?
  MR. SHAW-LEFEVRE: That is a legal question I am not quite certain about, but I have no power to interfere.
  MR. ROWLANDS: May I ask whether the only responsibility of the companies is to get their rates in advance?
  [No reply was given.]

  ADMIRALTY DEPARTMENTS.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: I beg to ask the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether he can now state the results of the adoption of the reduced hours of work in the Admiralty Departments last year; and whether the amount of work done per individual person has diminished; and, if not, whether he will consider the advisability of a still further reduction in the hours?
  MR. E. ROBERTSON: The Admiralty are, so far, satisfied with the results of the new system, but it has not been long enough in operation to justify a definite conclusion to be yet announced.

  PERTH POST OFFICE.
  MR. WILLIAM WHITELAW: I beg to ask the Postmaster General when the building of the new Post Office at Perth will be commenced?
  MR. ARNOLD MORLEY: I am afraid there must be some delay in commencing the building of the new Post Office at Perth. The purchase of the site has not yet been completed, but I learn from the First Commissioner of Works that provision for some expenditure on the building will be made in the Estimates for the ensuing financial year.

  ELECTRICAL INDICATORS IN THE HOUSE.
  MR. C. W. RADCLIFFE COOKE: I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works, whether he will cause electrical indicators, similar to the one now in the Members' Smoking Room, to be placed in the Libraries and Strangers' Smoking Room?
  THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. H. J. GLADSTONE,): The cost of six additional indicators would be £350, with an annual charge
  1436
  for maintenance of £130. I will arrange for one to be fixed in the Terrace Smoking Room. I gather, however, that many Members object to the proposal to place indicators in the Library Rooms on account of the perceptible noise they produce. I shall be glad to consult further with hon. Members.

  VOLUNTARY SCHOOLS AND THE RATES.
  COLONEL J. P. NOLAN: I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education, what is the average sum per child, in primary schools conducted mainly by Roman Catholic teachers and mainly filled by Roman Catholic children, received from the rates levied by School Boards?
  THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Mr. A. H. D. ACLAND,: I am sorry I am not able to give the information asked for by the hon. and gallant Gentleman, as these schools are Roman Catholic schools. Money is only allotted by School Boards to schools which are under their control.
  COLONEL NOLAN: May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman can procure any returns on this subject either from Roman Catholic or Protestant schools?
  MR. ACLAND: The point of my answer is that no Roman Catholic or other Voluntary schools receive money from the rates levied by School Boards in any part of the United Kingdom.

  THE ASHBOURNE ACTS.
  MR. F. MANDEVILLE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, are occupying ratepayers, who have purchased their landlord's interest in their farms (under the Ashbourne Acts), entitled to get the compensation awarded by the Local Government Board Arbitrator for the land they give to Poor Law Unions in Ireland for sites of labourers' cottages, and for allotments under the Labourers' Acts.
  MR. J. MORLEY: The tenants who purchase their holdings under the Land Purchase Acts are entitled to the compensation or purchase money awarded by the Local Government Board Arbitrator for the land given up to Poor

  1437
  Law Unions in Ireland under the Labourers' Cottages Acts, &c., subject to the right of the Land Commission to require such compensation to be applied in discharge of any advances made by the Land Commission to enable the tenant to purchase his holding.

  BRITISH INFLUENCE IN THE NILE BASIN.
  SIR R. TEMPLE: On behalf of the Member for the Ecclesall Division of Sheffield (Sir E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT), I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to a statement just made by M. de Brazza, Commissary General for the French Congo, to the following effect—
  "The recent Treaty between France and Belgium assures to France access to the Valley of the Nile; that access to the Valley of the Nile from the south is the only way in which France may be enabled one day to settle the Egyptian question in a manner consistent with her interests; and that it is easy for France to join the Congo Territory to that of the Soudan by drawing to France the population of Darfur."
  And whether Her Majesty's Government will clearly state that the whole of the Nile waterway, the security of which is essential for the prosperity of Egypt, is within the sphere of British influence, saving the suzerain rights of the Porte, and cannot be encroached upon by any other Power.
  SIR E. GREY: I cannot say whether M. de Brazza is correctly reported to have made such a statement. The British sphere of influence in the basin of the Upper Nile is defined in the Agreements with Germany and Italy. I cannot add to the definitions which are given there.

  TELEPHONE EXCHANGES.
  SIR CHARLES CAMERON: I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether he has taken advice as to the powers of municipal corporations to work telephone exchanges in case of their being licensed by the Post Office; and whether, in the view of his Department such work is legally competent to municipal corporations, or would, in order to be competent, require express Parliamentary powers?
  MR. ARNOLD MORLEY: I have consulted the solicitor to the Post Office, and I am advised by him that even if a
  1438
  Corporation obtained from the Postmaster General a licence to transmit telegrams by telephone, it could not erect and maintain telephonic apparatus, and manage what is generally understood by exchange business at the expense or risk of the corporate funds or rates, without the express sanction of Parliament.

  DEAD BODIES IN THE THAMES.
  MR. J. C. MACDONA: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that at a coroner's inquest, held recently upon the body of a young woman on the north side of the Thames, it was stated the body was still warm, although it had been towed by a rope attached to a boat for some distance on the river after it had been found, indicating that possibly the young woman may have been alive when first discovered; whether he is aware that a reward is only given in case of life being extinct in bodies rescued from the Thames, which fact may possibly exercise a restraining influence upon those inclined to try and save drowning persons; and whether the Government will take steps to prevent such a possibility?
  MR. BRYCE: No, Sir; the facts are not within my knowledge. The matter does not fall within the jurisdiction of my Department. But I cannot believe that anyone would be guilty of the detestable inhumanity suggested in the question, and would leave a fellow creature to drown for the sake of a paltry reward.
  MR. MACDONA: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if I may read a letter which shows that such a case has occurred?
  MR. BRYCE: The matter does not belong to my Department in any way. If the hon. Gentleman has any communication to make he had better make it to the Metropolitan Police.

MOTIONS.
  MARRIED PERSONS' SMALL INDUSTRIAL

    INCOME TAX RELIEF BILL.
    On Motion of Mr. G. C. T. Bartley, Bill to extend Relief in Income Tax to Married Persons with small Industrial Incomes, however earned, which do not exceed five hundred pounds a year.
    Bill presented, and read first time; to be read a second time upon Monday 4th March, and to be printed. [Bill 139.]

    POLITICAL OFFICES PENSION ACT (1869) REPEAL BILL.
    On Motion of Mr. Alpheus C. Morton, Bill to repeal the Political Offices Pension Act, 1869.
    Bill presented, and read first time; to be read a second time upon Wednesday, and to be printed. [Bill 140.]

    NEWFOUNDLAND (FINANCIAL CRISIS).
    Address for "Copies or Extracts of Correspondence which has passed between the Imperial Government and the Government of Newfoundland relating to the present Financial Crisis in that Colony, and to the request for aid by the Government of Newfoundland."—(Sir Francis Evans.)

    SUPPLY.
    Order for Committee read.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

    THE ENFRANCHISEMENT OF WOMEN.
    MR. W. S. B. MCLARENin whose name the following Motion stood on the Paper—
    "To call attention to the desirability of extending the Parliamentary Franchise to Women; and to move that no person should be disqualified from exercising the Parliamentary Franchise on the ground of sex,"
    asked Mr. Speaker if he would be in Order in moving it.
    MR. SPEAKER: In reply to the hon. Member, I have to say that there are two Bills, one standing in the name of the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean, and another in that of the hon. Member for the Rotherhithe Division—I am not sure whether there is not a third—which deal with the whole question of the enfranchisement of women. In these circumstances I think the hon. Member will come within the rule against forestalling the Discussion on Bills, and is therefore properly out of Order.
    MR. MCLARENasked the leave of the House to make an explanation. There were three Bills before the House—namely the two mentioned by the Speaker, and a third in his own name. The right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean was very kindly quite ready to withdraw his Bill, and he had made an appeal to the hon. Member for Rotherhithe Division to do the same, but he regretted to say that the hon. Member had refused to do so.
    MR. G. C. T. BARTLEYinterrupting, asked whether it was
    1440
    fair to attack an hon. Member when he might have obvious reasons for his action.
    MR. MCLARENsaid, he did not intend to cast any reflection upon the hon. Member. He had made every effort to induce him to withdraw his Bill, but he declined to withdraw, and that was the reason why the House had been put to any trouble in the matter.
    MR. J. C. MACDONA: May I explain, Sir, why I declined? I was unanimously appointed by the Parliamentary Committee to take charge of this Bill, and at their unanimous request I have stuck to the Bill, and I mean to stick to it.

    VOLUNTARY SCHOOLS.
    *Mr. H. S. FOSTERrose to move:—
    "That, in the opinion of this House, the Voluntary Schools of this kingdom are entitled to the most considerate treatment at the hands of the Education Department, and that this House, while desirous of seeking a fair and healthy rivalry between the School Board and the voluntary school systems, views with disfavour any policy designed either to unduly harass the voluntary schools out of existence or to ignore the special difficulties under which they labour as compared with the Board Schools."
    The hon. Member said that last year the Education Vote was taken during the last four days of a very exhausting Session, and the discussion was carried on in a very thin House and was of a perfunctory nature. The object of his Resolution was to ask the House to affirm, what it ought not to be necessary to affirm at their time of day, namely, that the voluntary schools of the kingdom were entitled to considerate treatment at the hands of the Education Department, and that the House should do all it could to encourage a fair and healthy rivalry as between Board and Voluntary Schools. He would, no doubt, be challenged by the Vice President of the Council as to the treatment of voluntary schools by the Department, and to the complaint which had now become widespread, of what had been called the undue pressure upon them.
    Notice taken that 40 Members were not present: House counted, and 40 Members not being present:
    The House adjourned at Five minutes after Eight o'clock till Monday next.