Commons Sitting of 9 December 1890

MR. SPEAKER'S CONTINUED ABSENCE.
The House being met, the Clerk at the Table informed the House that Mr. Speaker was again unavoidably prevented from taking the Chair of the House this day.
Whereupon Mr. Courtney, the Chairman of Ways and Means, proceeded to the Table; and, after Prayers, took the Chair as Deputy Speaker, pursuant to the Standing Order.

QUESTIONS.

  NATURAL HISTORY MUSEUM— ELECTRIC LIGHTING.
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, considering that the public are now deprived of the use of the Great Natural History Museum, not only in the afternoons and evenings, but also on foggy winter days, and that the facilities of lighting are now such that the Museum has already been temporarily lighted by electricity for societies meeting there, the Treasury will again consider the advisability of providing funds to light the Museum?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. JACKSON,: Temporary arrangements for electric lighting have occasionally been made by societies who have been allowed the use of the Natural History Museum, but until further experience has been obtained of the effect of evening opening at the British Museum it is not proposed to take up the question of making a permanent installation for electric light at the Natural History Museum.
  SIR G. CAMPBELL: I wish to know whether the Government, in considering this matter, have had regard to the fact that the British Museum is an institution of an unpopular character, whereas the South Kensington Museum is one of an extremely popular kind; and whether, therefore, some opportunity should not be given of seeing the latter in the evening?
  MR. JACKSON: I do not think the hon. Member's description of the British Museum accords with the description given in the House when the Government were pledged to introduce the electric light into the Museum, and I may add that the experience there is not extremely satisfactory—[Sir G. CAMPBELL: "Hear, hear!"]—because evening attendance, which in February averaged 635, fell in March to 367, and has continued to fall since, until in November it was only 145.

  THE CITY PAROCHIAL CHARITIES.
  SIR ROBERT FOWLER: I beg to ask the vice President of the

  747
  Committee of Council on Education whether, inasmuch as in respect of applications to be heard on objections against the Central Scheme framed under "The City of London Parochial Charities Act, 1883," the Education Department, in April last,
  "Decided to approve the scheme without further delay, so as to allow time for its consideration by Parliament,"
  and that the Education Department approved the scheme and laid it upon the Table of the House on the 2nd December, without hearing any objectors and without publication, and having regard to the fact that on the 31st January it will only require the Royal Assent to become law, the Government will undertake to give any, and what, opportunity for its consideration by Parliament?
  THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Sir W. HART DYKE,): My hon. Friend is in error in supposing that the scheme was laid on the Table of the House without publication, and in assuming, as he appears to do, that no hearing has been given to objectors. All the objections to the scheme have been carefully considered, and not only were its general features the subject of a Debate in this House early last Session, when an almost unanimous feeling in its favour was elicited, but the scheme itself lay on the Table without challenge for seven weeks, from July 3rd to the prorogation in August last. Looking, therefore, to the delay which has already taken place, and to the magnitude of the interests depending upon the success of the scheme, I can only refer my hon. Friend to the opportunity that will still exist of moving an Address to the Crown when the House meets again in January.

  ELECTRIC LIGHTING IN LONDON.
  MR. RICHARD CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the long continued default of the Chelsea Electric Supply Company to furnish the statutory currents of 100 volts, and to the serious loss of illuminating power sustained by consumers in consequence; whether the Board of Trade have allowed this company
  748
  a margin of four volts either way, and that the latter have taken advantage of this concession to give an average during lighting hours of 97 volts instead of the 100, to which consumers are entitled; whether complaints of this default were made to the Board 12 months ago, and assurance then made by the company of immediate amendment; and whether he will take steps to compel this company to keep faith with the public or to forfeit their concession?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Sir M. HICKS BEACH,: Last winter the hon. Member complained to the Board of Trade of the deficiency in the standard pressure of the current supplied by this company. The Board of Trade communicated with the company, and were informed that the cause of complaint had been removed. Under the regulations imposed upon the company under their order, they are bound to declare to the consumer the constant pressure at which they propose to supply him with energy, and the variation from the pressure so declared must not exceed 4 per cent. under a penalty not exceeding £5 for each default, and a daily penalty not exceeding £5 so long as the default continues. If the regulations are not complied with, it is open to the consumer to proceed against the company for penalties.
  MR. R. CHAMBERLAIN: May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman's attention has been called to the fact that the variation mentioned has been taken advantage of in order to supply the consumers not with an average of 100 volts, but of 97, in that way taking advantage of the concession of the Board of Trade?
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: However that may be, if the company are in default the consumers have their remedy. It is not for the Board of Trade to enforce the law.
  MR. R. CHAMBERLAIN: I understand from the right hon. Gentleman that we have no remedy unless they get below 96—the 4 per cent. referred to in the answer just given?
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: Yes, Sir; that is so.

  THE WAR OFFICE AND PRIVATE ESTABLISHMENTS.
  MR. CUNINGHAME GRAHAM: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War why should men be discharged and machinery standidle in the Arsenal while the work is being done by private contractors?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. E. STANHOPE,: It is the policy of the War Office to give a share of its orders to the trade with the special object of having large sources of supply to rely upon in case of emergency. The Ordnance Factories have got through their share of work quicker than the trade.
  In reply to a further question by Mr. GRAHAM,
  MR. E. STANHOPE said: I admit that the work done by the Ordnance Factories yields more profit to the Government than work done in private establishments, but it is of advantage to obtain a supply, not only from our own factories, but from private firms.

  THE MANCHESTER SHIP CANAL.
  MR. CUNINGHAME GRAHAM: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will lay upon the Table a Return of the number of accidents, fatal or otherwise, that have taken place upon the Manchester Ship Canal during its progress?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. MATTHEWS,: I have not this information in my possession, nor have I the means of ascertaining with anything like certainty what non-fatal accidents have taken place.

  ROYAL WARRANTS.
  MR. CUNINGHAME GRAHAM: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been drawn to a letter in the London Times, of 7th January, 1890, headed "Royal Warrants," and signed "D. Jamieson, Pensioner, Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant," complaining of Royal Warrants being interpreted to his disadvantage and also to the disadvantage of soldiers by the War Office; and whether
  750
  the statements are well founded; and, if so, whether he will take any steps to rectify the grievances therein complained of?
  MR. E. STANHOPE: This man could have been pensioned either under the Warrant of 1878 or under that of 1881. Under the former he would have been entitled to a pension of 2s. 6d. a day; under the latter he has been granted 2s. 9½d. He cannot have the advantage of both Warrants conjointly, as he suggests, in order to increase his pension still further. I may add that his case has been repeatedly under the consideration of the War Office and of the Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital.

  THE CAVALRY BARRACKS AT WINDSOR.
  SIR SAMUEL WILSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the Cavalry Barracks at Windsor are in a most insanitary condition at present, and whether some cases of typhoid fever have occurred there recently; and is he prepared to take such steps as may be necessary to prevent further risk of disease from the cause referred to amongst Her Majesty's troops now stationed there?
  MR. E. STANHOPE: The sanitary state of the Cavalry Barracks at Windsor is reported to be very good. Two cases of enteric fever have occurred in the Royal Horse Guards. In one case the disease was probably contracted while on leave; the origin of the other case cannot be traced.

  TRUST FUNDS AND COLONIAL SECURITIES.
  MR. PETER MCDONALD: I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can now state the result of his consideration of the question whether permission be given by the Government to Trustees to invest their Trust Funds in Colonial Securities?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. GOSCHEN,: I have had no direct communication, as far as I can remember, from the Agents General since the Committee reported, urging me to take action in the matter.

  TELEGRAPH MESSENGERS.
  MR. PICKERSGILL: I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether telegraph messengers are being employed on postmen's duties; and, if so, what wages they are receiving, and whether the proper duties of the telegraph messengers now so employed are performed by boys at wages lower than those usually paid to telegraph messengers?
  THE POSTMASTER GENERAL (Mr. RAIKES,: A certain number of the older telegraph messengers are being employed upon postmen's duties to fill temporary vacancies, and in order that they may have an opportunity of learning the work. These youths, if found suitable, will be appointed to the postmen's class, and in the meantime are paid wages of 17s. a week. The duties of the telegraph messengers, withdrawn from their ordinary work, are performed by temporary substitutes at the minimum of the telegraph messengers' pay, in accordance with the general rule of the Service.
  MR. PICKERSGILL: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many telegraph messengers are now employed in postmen's duty?
  MR. RAIKES: No, Sir; but I will make inquiry, and let the hon. Member know.

  THE DISMISSED POSTMEN.
  MR. PICKERSGILL: I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether, having regard to the good character of the dismissed postmen and their urgent distress, he will give them the preference for temporary employment during the Christmas "pressure" of work? I have also to ask whether postal employés will render themselves liable to dismissal or other official punishment by collecting subscriptions, either from the public or from their brother officers, for the dismissed postmen, who, with their wives and families, are on the verge of starvation?
  MR. RAIKES: For the reasons given yesterday in reply to the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets, I regret that no employment in the London Postal Service can be given to the dismissed postmen.
  752
  Post Office servants can, of course, collect what money they please among themselves; but, except in the case of Christmas boxes, they are forbidden to collect from the public for any object. To this prohibition I regret that no exception can be made.

  THE CIVIL SERVICE.
  MR. JOHN KELLY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he can state whether a Treasury Minute, explanatory of the Order in Council, in August last, dealing with the First Division of the Civil Service, will be issued; and, if so, at what date it will be published?
  MR. JACKSON: Some Heads of Departments have addressed questions to the Treasury on two or three points in connection with the recent Order in Council, and the Treasury reply, which will most conveniently be in the form of a Minute, is on the point of being issued.

  QUEENSLAND.
  MR. HENNIKER HEATON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is the intention of the Secretary of State for the Colonies to lay upon the Table of this House any further Papers having reference to the erection of the northern portion of Queensland into a separate colony; whether the subject of the formation of such colony has occupied the attention of the Cabinet; and whether he is in a position to state the intention of the Government in the matter?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Baron H. de WORMS,: It is not proposed to present any Papers immediately, as the correspondence is in an incomplete state, but Papers will be presented at the proper time. The subject has received the attention of Her Majesty's Government, but I am not yet in a position to make any statement with regard to it.

  HOUSE DUTY AND INCOME TAX.
  MR. MORTON: I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will take steps to allow to

  753
  owners of houses under £25 assessment a discount off the House Duty and Income Tax, as is now done by the Local Authorities with regard to the Rates, on condition that the owner pays for the whole year, whether the property is let or unlet?
  MR. GOSCHEN: There is no reason for allowing a discount "to owners of houses under £25" off House Duty and Income Tax, because House Duty is a tenant's tax and payable by him, and because an owner is only bound to allow Income Tax (Schedule A) on actual rent received; and if the house be void for any quarter, relief is afforded from the Income Tax charge under the 70th section of the Act 5 & 6 Vic., cap. 35.
  MR. MORTON: I beg, further, to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will take steps to make the assessment of property on which House Duty and Income Tax are collected the same as that used (the rateable value) by the Local Authorities, so that the assessments for Imperial and Local Taxation may be uniform?
  MR. GOSCHEN: A common basis of value is an almost indispensable condition of the proposal of the hon. Member; but the whole suggestion involves Budget considerations of too great a difficulty to be dealt with in the limits of an answer across the floor of the House.

  WATER SUPPLY IN EGYPT.
  SIR JOHN SWINBURNE: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any communications have been recently received from Her Majesty's Agent and Consul General in Egypt with reference to the summer supply of water in that country for agricultural and sanitary purposes; whether the repairs of the barrage have given satisfactory results; whether the water supply of Alexandria during the season of low Nile in 1888, 1889, and 1890, has been improved in quality and quantity by the changes effected by th Irrigation Department; and whether, in case communications relating to this subject have been received by Her Majesty's Government from Her Majesty's Agent
  754
  and Consul General in Cairo, these communications, or the substance of them, will be laid upon the Table?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir J. FERGUSSON,: As to the first and fourth paragraphs, information with reference to the summer supply of water will be given in the Papers respecting the condition of Egypt about to be distributed. The repairs to the barrage have given very satisfactory results. We have no information as to the water supply of Alexandria during low Nile.

  THE POSTAL AND TELEGRAPH SERVICE.
  MR. BRADLAUGH: I beg to ask the Postmaster General if he can state when the revised scheme for the superior officers of the Postal and Telegraph Service, which has already been applied in Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, Newcastle, Bristol, and Leeds, will be extended to Nottingham, Derby, Leicester, Oxford, Northampton, Cambridge, Coventry, and to offices in similar towns?
  MR. RAIKES: In reply to the hon. Member, I have to state that the case of most of the larger post offices is under examination at the present time with reference to the pay and position of the superior officers, but I am not yet able to state what changes may be found necessary in the particular instances referred to. I can, however, assure the hon. Member that the matter is receiving my anxious consideration, and that there shall be no avoidable delay in dealing with it.

  THE CUSTOMS.
  MR. BRADLAUGH: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether the agreement which, on the 24th April, 1890, had been practically arrived at between the Commissioner of Customs and the Treasury as regards the future status and rates of pay of the men engaged on statistical abstracting in the Customs Department, has yet been put into formal shape; and, if not, whether he can state the cause of the delay?
  MR. JACKSON: Some difficulties of detail occurred in giving effect to the re-arrangement of the Statistical Abstracting

  755
  Department of the Customs, to which the hon. Member refers. These difficulties have now been solved, and we shall at once inform the Customs of our decision in the matter.

  THE IRISH MAILS.
  MR. M'CARTAN: I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether he is aware that, by the proposed mail route from London,viâ Stranraer and Larne, to Belfast and the North of Ireland, the English mails would reach Belfast at 8.47 a.m., Ballymena at 9.2 a.m., and Derry at 11.22 a.m., whereas the earliest hour at which the English mails, viâHolyhead. now reach Belfast is 10.25 a.m.; whether he will state at what time they reach Derry and Ballymena; and whether, considering the great advantage which these and many other towns in Ulster would derive from the accelerated service by Larne and Stranraer, he will state when he can give a definite answer as to the adoption of this route?
  MR. RAIKES: I am not unaware of the advantages which might be expected from the adoption of the Larne route, but a proposal has been made to me for an acceleration of the existing service from Dublin to Belfast, and this must be carefully examined in conjunction with the first scheme. According to the Time Table furnished in connection with the proposal to which the hon. Member refers, the English mails would be due at the times mentioned. They now reach Derry at 12.15 p.m., and Ballymena at 12.18 p.m.
  MR. JOHNSTON: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he has not been carefully considering the subject for some time with the view of solving the difficulty?
  MR. RAIKES: No time will be lost by me in arriving at a decision.

  THE CASE OF MR. WALSH.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: I beg to ask the Attorney General for Ireland when the first warrant for Mr. Walsh, of the Cashel Sentinel, was signed, and who signed it, and on what ground was it delayed?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. MADDEN,: I have already said that the County Court Judge, with whom the matter rested, is not under the control of the Government.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: Why was the second warrant held over and not put in force? Under what statute did the police act?
  MR. MADDEN: I have already told the hon. Member that the second warrant was put in force after the termination of the imprisonment under the first warrant. This course is in compliance with the regulation of the Royal Irish Constabulary.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: This is a matter of vital importance. I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that there is no statute, and that it was only the regulations of the Constabulary that were acted upon. Are those regulations in accordance with the law? I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman as a lawyer to examine the statute, and to see whether what has taken place is in accordance with the Petty Sessions Act. Will he as a lawyer say that the Royal Constabulary Code is in conformity with the statute?
  MR. MADDEN: Yes.

  MATRONS AT POLICE STATIONS.
  SIR ROBERT FOWLER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what recent progress has been made in the employment of women as resident matrons or caretakers at police stations in London and the provinces; and have any police stations in London and the provinces been yet appropriated exclusively to the reception of females under arrest; and, if so, how many are there of such stations?
  MR. MATTHEWS: I am informed by the Commissioner of Police that this question is now under the consideration of a Board of experienced officers, who will shortly make a Report; and I await that Report before taking any further steps. The answer to the last paragraph is in the negative, as far as London is concerned, and I am not aware that any police stations are appropriated to this purpose in the provinces.

  SAVINGS BANK DEPARTMENT.
  MR. LAWSON: I beg to ask the Postmaster General, with respect to the fact that the two officers who happened to deliver a Memorial addressed to the Treasury, and signed by upwards of 350 officers of the Savings Bank Department, have been transferred to other branches of the Post Office, it being alleged against them that they are responsible for the publication of the Memorial in the Evening News and Post, notwithstanding their emphatic denial of the charge, whether either the Postmaster General or the Controller of the Savings Bank has received a further request that the Memorial be withdrawn from further consideration; and whether, in view of the foregoing, and also of the increasing difficulties connected with the work of the Department, he will take steps to appoint a Committee of Inquiry into the grievances complained of by the officers concerned?
  MR. RAIKES: I beg to say, in answer to the first question of the hon. Member, that I have received a request from certain officers of the Savings Bank Department that the Memorial to which he refers may be withdrawn from further consideration. In reply to the second question, I beg leave to say that I see no necessity for the appointment of a Committee of Inquiry. It is the fact that the two officers referred to, and to whom a confidential communication from myself to the memorialists was entrusted, have been transferred to other branches of the Post Office in consequence of these documents having been divulged. They were afforded an opportunity for explanation, but failed, in my judgment, to divest themselves of responsibility for this proceeding. Every officer in the Department is well aware that official communications between the Minister and the staff are strictly confidential; and it would, indeed, be impossible for departmental questions to be discussed freely between the Head of a Department and his officers if this honourable obligation is not recognised. I felt it necessary, therefore, to mark my disapprobation of what has occurred by transferring to other branches officers in
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  whom I could no longer place confidence as intermediaries in any question affecting the Savings Bank.

  SCALES AND WEIGHING MACHINES.
  MR. CAUSTON: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the great pressure that is being put upon scale and weighing machine manufacturers in order that the requirements of the Act, which will come into operation on 1st January, shall be complied with; and whether the Government will grant an extension of time for affixing the Government stamp to all weighing instruments?
  SIR MICHAEL HICKS BEACH: The Act which was passed in July, 1889, came into operation on January 1, 1890, and provides that persons who use for trade, after January 1, 1891, any weighing instrument not verified and stamped by an Inspector of Weights and Measures shall be liable to a fine. The Government have no power to extend the date fixed, and it appears to me that unless an Inspector considers that a weighing instrument is not correct, and declines on that account to stamp it, there is no necessity for the interference of a manufacturer to adjust it. With reasonable conduct on the part of the Local Authorities and the traders, I do not see why any difficulty should arise.

  PRESUMPTION OF LIFE LIMITATION (SCOTLAND) ACT.
  MR. BUCHANAN: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether he will introduce legislation to amend "The Presumption of Life Limitation (Scotland) Act, 1881?"
  THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. P. B. ROBERTSON,): During the Recess I shall be happy to consider whether there are any considerable number of cases not covered by the Statute.

  IRELAND—THE CONGESTED DISTRICTS.
  SIR LYON PLAYFAIR: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Reports made by the Inspectors, as to the state of the Congested Districts, will be presented to Parliament?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (MR. A. J. BALFOUR,: Yes, Sir; it is my intention to include the Reports of the Irish Local Government Inspectors among the Papers to be laid upon the Table on the subject mentioned.

  THE LAND PURCHASE BILL.
  MR. KEAY: I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as the moneys of the Sinking Fund are to be all re-lent or re-lendable for long periods under the Land Purchase Bill, if he would state what monies will be available for the redemption of the original land Stock?
  MR. GOSCHEN: The moneys of the Sinking Fund are not to be re-lent. They are to be applied as a Sinking Fund. Supposing £1,000,000 had been lent, in the first year there would be £40,000 payable on the £1,000,000 as an annuity, of which £10,000 would go to the Sinking Fund and might be employed in cancelling £10,000 of Guaranteed Stock. In consequence, at the beginning of the next year there would be only £990,000 of that Stock, and there would be £10,000 to lend again, bringing up the sum to the original £1,000,000. By such a process the amount of the Guaranteed Stock not covered would never exceed the £1,000,000. Or, again, the £10,000 might be invested in Consols, and the Consols themselves and the interest thereon would stand as an asset in favour of the Fund.
  MR. KEAY: I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is not the case that under the system which he has described it would be necessary to issue fresh Stock on the occasion of re-lending?
  MR. GOSCHEN: Yes; it would; £10,000 would be cancelled, and £10,000 would be freshly issued. Consequently, the total would stand as it was at the commencement. Under that process the total would never exceed £30,000,000, which would be covered by the security.
  MR. SHAW LEFEVRE: Will the right hon. Gentleman lay on the Table a Return showing the
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  effect of the accumulated Sinking Fund under the Land Purchase Act?
  MR. GOSCHEN: I will confer with my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary, and see what we can do.

  SOUTH-EAST AFRICA-AFFRAY IN MUTACA'S COUNTRY.
  MR. BRYCE: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can now give the House any further information regarding the recent reported affray near Mutaca's Kraal, in South-East Africa, between the police employed by the British South Africa Company and the Portuguese; and if he can make any statement as to the progress of negotiations with Portugal, regarding her relations to Great Britain, of the two countries in South-East Africa, and the means to re taken for averting disputes and collisions between the subjects of the two Governments?
  SIR J. FERGUSSON: No information has been received from the Cape except the telegram already quoted. Portuguese reports give a different version, stating that the British were the aggressors; but we have no reason to doubt the accuracy of the statements forwarded by the High Commissioner. The latest step in the negotiations is the conclusion of the modus vivendi. The necessity of observing this has been strongly impressed on the South Africa Company, and it is understood that the Portuguese Government is equally anxious to secure its observance. It is hoped that there will be no more collisions between the employés of the rival companies, but they are beyond the immediate control of the Governments.
  MR. BRYCE: May I ask whether Papers will be laid upon the Table before the House re-assembles?
  SIR J. FERGUSSON: I cannot say when the Papers will be produced, as it is manifest that the Government must wait until the Despatches arrive before laying the Papers upon the Table.
  MR. BUCHANAN: Will the Papers referring to the modus vivendi be laid upon the Table?
  SIR J. FERGUSSON: No doubt those Papers will be presented.

  CHRIST'S HOSPITAL.
  MR. MUNDELLA: I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education whether the governing body of Christ's Hospital has been appointed, and when the names will be gazetted?
  MR. J. W. LOWTHER: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to answer this question. The time fixed by the scheme for Christ's Hospital, for the completion of the body of almoners, has been extended by an Order of the Charity Commissioners to the 15th inst.; and the like time for the completion of the body of governors so constituted (in which body these almoners are included) has been similarly extended to the 1st of January, 1891. No provision is made in that scheme for the publication in the London Gazette, or otherwise, of the names of the persons appointed in pursuance of the scheme to be governors or almoners.

  PROFESSOR KOCH'S CURE FOR TUBERCULAR DISEASES.
  MR. ERNEST SPENCER: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture if he has yet received any of Professor Koch's fluid for the cure of tubercular diseases; and whether it can be obtained, on application to the officials of his Department, by the authorities of recognised public institutions?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE (Mr. CHAPLIN,: The Board of Agriculture has applied for a small quantity of Professor Koch's fluid for purposes of experiment upon animals, but we have not yet received it, and, consequently, it cannot be obtained on application to the officials of the Department.

  "MITCHELL V. REGINA."
  MR. CUNINGHAME GRAHAM: I beg to ask the Attorney General if he will lay upon the Table of the House a Copy of the Allocatur or taxed costs of the Crown in "Mitchell v. Regina," amounting to £160 15s. 6d., and dated 8th May, 1890, and inform this House if it is true that the following is written on it:—
  "By consent of the parties I hereby cancel this Allocatur.
  "(Signed.)
  "W. F. ARCHIBALD, June 18th, 1890.
  "A Master of the Supreme
  Court of Judicature."
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir R. WEBSTER,: There is no necessity to lay upon the Table a Copy of the Allocatur. The Crown did not press for the costs of the proceedings out of consideration for Colonel Mitchell, and at his request, on the distinct arrangement in writing that Colonel Mitchell's supposed claim should not again be raised in any shape.

  THE CROFTER DISTRICTS.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the Government are now able to state what action they contemplate to give effect to the Report of the Commission appointed to inquire into the question of Public Works in the Crofter Districts of Scotland?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. W. H. SMITH,: The Report in question is receiving careful examination by the Secretary for Scotland in conjunction with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and myself, and we believe that we shall be in a position to submit proposals to Parliament with reference to the recommendations made by the Commissioners shortly after the re-assembling of the House.

  WATER SUPPLY OF LONDON.
  MR. LAWSON: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, on the re-assembling of Parliament, he will ask the House to appoint a Select Committee to consider the various Public and Private Bills affecting the water supply of the Metropolis, and the method of assessing the charges thereon, introduced this Session?
  MR. W. H. SMITH: The Government are not in a position to state what course they will advise the House to adopt with regard to the various Bills affecting the water supply of the Metropolis until the Bills have been printed and are before the House.

  LOANS TO IRISH TENANTS.
  MR. FINUCANE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the Government will lend money to the Irish farmers at the same rate of interest charged by a previous Government to the landlords in the year 1879, for the purpose of—first, executing useful works on their farms; and, secondly, of giving employment to the agricultural labourers during the next six months?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for having given me notice of his question and for the letter with which he accompanied it. I do not, however, think it would be advisable to comply with the implied suggestion which it contains. In most of the districts where serious distress may be apprehended there are no large farmers, and relatively few agricultural labourers, the population consisting almost entirely of small occupiers. Moreover, many of the objections which apply to the system adopted in 1879 for lending money to landlords apply, though with less equal force, to the proposal made by the hon. Gentleman.

  MUSIC AT FRIENDLY SOCIETY MEETINGS.
  MR. WOOTTON ISAACSON: I beg to ask the Home Secretary whether at the meetings of lodges of Masons, Oddfellows, Foresters, Druids, and other Societies on licensed premises, when only members of the Society are present, piano playing and singing are forbidden; and. if so, under which Act are the members of those Societies (who number many thousands) precluded from participating in such innocent amusement?
  MR. MATTHEWS: The question is hardly definite enough for me to give a very satisfactory answer. I may say, however, that the only general Act bearing on the subject is the 20th George II., c. 36; and, speaking generally, the penalties in that Act fall upon the owner of the house, and not upon the visitors. Moreover, the police do not in practice interfere unless there is proof of actual disorderly conduct, immorality, or real mischief.
  MR. W. ISAACSON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that last week the police summoned members of one of these Societies for playing the piano and singing?
  MR. MATTHEWS: No; I am not aware of it.

  NATIONAL EDUCATION BOARD (IRELAND).
  MR. CLANCY, for Dr. KENNY (Cork, S.): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether a vacancy is expected in the post of Catholic Chief of Inspection, under the National Education Board, Ireland; whether such vacancy, both by right and custom, belongs to the Catholic Inspectors of National Schools; and whether it is the intention of the Government to go outside the ranks of Catholic Inspectors in making the appointment; and, if so, will he consent not to make any appointment to the expected vacancy during the Recess, in order that the matter may be discussed in the House?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: There is no immediate prospect of any vacancy.

  RAILWAYS IN COUNTY DONEGAL.
  MR. LEA: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if any decision has yet been come to for the construction of the railway between Buncrana and Cardonagh, in County Donegal?
  MR. JACKSON: I must ask the hon. Gentleman to postpone the question for the present.

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  That they have agreed to,—Seed Potatoes Supply (Ireland) Bill, without Amendment.
  That they have passed a Bill, intituled "An Act to provide a close time for Hares in England, Scotland, and Wales." [Hares Preservation Bill [Lords.]
  And, also, a Bill, intituled "An Act to Amend the Law as to the Endowment of the Archdeaconry of Cornwall." [Archdeaconry of Cornwall Bill [Lords.]

  NAVAL RESERVES (No. 1).
  Return ordered—
  "Of number of Naval Reserve Drill Ships and Batteries, with details as under, commencing in each case with the name of the ship or battery where the largest number of officers and men were drilled, for the year ending the 31st day of March 1890, in the following form:—

  Port or Place.

  Name of Ship.

  Number drilled 1889 and 1890.

  Armament.

  Rifles.

  Pistols.

  Drill Swords.

  Facilities for Target practice.

  Batteries.

  Drill Sheds, including those hired.

  Miscellaneous Memoranda.

  Officers.

  Men.

  Total number.

  Guns.

  Type of Gun.

  Nordenfelts and Maxim.

  Number.

  Type.

  Number.

  Type.

  Gun.

  Rifle.

  Distance to Range.

  Pistol.

  When built.

  Condition.

  Dimensions.

  If sufficient accommodation.

  When built.

  Condition.

  Dimensions.

  If sufficient accommodation.

  —(Mr. Gourley.)

  NAVAL RESERVES (No. 2).
  Return ordered—
  "Showing total cost of Royal Naval Reserve Drill Ships and Batteries, including Salaries, Allowances, and Emoluments of all Ranks and Ratings, except Instructors, for the year ending the 31st day of March 1890, in the following form:—

  Port or Place.

  Name of Ship or Battery.

  Annual cost of maintenance and repairs.

  Staff.

  Incidental charges.

  Other charges.

  Total.

  Officers (including Warrant Officers showing rank of each Officer.)

  Petty Officers and Seamen

  Total Pay and Allowances of each rank and rating.

  Dock charges for Drill Ships.

  Allowances to Battery Officers for drilling Royal Naval Reserve.

  Rifle ranges.

  Travelling to rifle practice.

  Ground and other rents for Batteries.

  Hire of sheds or other buildings.

  Receipts.

  Payments.

  Number.

  Rank.

  Number.

  Rating.

  —(Mr. Gourley.)

  MESSAGE TO ATTEND THE LORDS COMMISSIONERS.
  The House went;—and being returned;—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker reported the Royal Assent to,—

  1. Transfer of Railways (Ireland) Act, 1890.

  2. Seed Potatoes Supply (Ireland) Act, 1890.

  COURT OF EXCHEQUER (IRELAND) (LORD CHIEF BARON'S OBSERVA TIONS ON APPLICATION FOR HABEAS CORPUS).
  Return ordered—
  "Of the Observations of the Lord Chief Baron of the Irish Court of Exchequer on delivering the Judgment of the Court on an application for Habeas Corpus by Michael O'Brien Dalton and others on the 1st day of December last."— (Mr. T. W. Russell.)

MOTIONS.

  KINGSTON-UPON-HULL (COURT OF RECORD) BILL.
  On Motion of Sir Albert Rollit, Bill to amend the practice and procedure of the Court of Record of the borough of Kingston-upon-Hull, ordered to be brought in by Sir Albert Rollit, Mr. Charles Wilson, Mr. King, Mr. Grotrian, Mr. Sykes, Mr. Duncombe, and Commander Bethell.
  Bill presented, and read first time. [Bill 158.]

  MUSEUMS AND GYMNASIUMS BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. Powell, Bill to enable urban authorities to provide and maintain Museums and Gymnasiums, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Powell, Dr. Farquharson, Mr. Edward Hardcastle, Sir Albert Rollit, Mr. Kenrick, Mr. Mallock, and Mr. Samuel Smith.
  Bill presented, and read first time. [Bill 159.]

  TRAMWAYS (IRELAND) ACT (1860) AMEND MENT BILL.
  On Motion of Sir Edward Harland, Bill to amend "The Tramways (Ireland) Act, 1860," ordered to be brought in by Sir Edward Harland, Mr. Sexton, and Captain M'Calmont.
  Bill presented, and read first time. [Bill 160.]

  FORGED TRANSFERS BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. Pitt-Lewis, Bill for preventing purchasers of Stocks from losses by Forged Transfers, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Pitt-Lewis, Mr. Kimber, and Mr. Maclure.
  Bill presented, and read first time. [Bill 161.]

  ARCHITECTS' REGISTRATION BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. Noble, Bill for the Registration of Architects, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Noble, General Goldsworthy, and Mr. Justin M'Carthy.
  Bill presented, and read first time. [Bill 162.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  LAND DEPARTMENT (IRELAND) BILL.—(No. 112.)
  Bill considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Clause 1.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Thursday, 22nd January.

  PURCHASE OF LAND AND CONGESTED DISTRICTS (IRELAND) [ADVANCES &c.]
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "1. That it is expedient to authorise—

  (a.) the temporary advance out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of any sums that may be required for making good any deficiency in the Land Purchase Account for the payment of dividends on guaranteed Land Stock and payments to the Sinking Fund;

  (b.) an annual Exchequer contribution of £40,000 out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom to the Guarantee Fund.

  (C.) the payment out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of the salaries of the Land Commissioners.

  "2. That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of the salaries, remuneration, and administrative expenses of the Congested Districts Board, in pursuance of any Act of the present Session relating to the Purchase of Land in Ireland, the Land Commission, and the Congested Districts in Ireland."— (Mr. A.
  J. Balfour.)
  MR. T. M. HEALY: I understand from Her Majesty's Government that the pledge of the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury was that no further stage beyond the Second Reading would be taken of any of these measures. We have allowed the Government in connection with these two Bills to take another stage— one that I understood was reserved for after the Christmas holidays.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. W. H. SMITH,: Progress cannot be made

  769
  in Committee with this Bill until a formal Resolution has been passed, which Resolution was included in the programme of the Government—that is to say, the programme of business to be taken before the adjournment for the Christmas holidays.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: I refer not to the arrangements of the Government, but to the pledge of the right hon. Gentleman. I apprehend that the right hon. Gentleman stated that the Government would not press these Bills beyond the Second Reading stage, but they have now achieved a further stage, which has prevented Instructions being moved on going into Committee.
  MR. W. H. SMITH: The pledge I gave to the House was that no progress should be made in Committee on the Bill until after the Christmas Recess, but it was distinctly understood that all the steps necessary to get the Speaker out of the Chair should be disposed of, and the Money Resolution is one of those steps.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: I will say no more on the point, but I hope the Irish Members will have sufficient notice given them of the intention of the Government to make effective progress in Committee on the Land Bills. I understand from the Government that the early part of the January Sitting will be occupied with the Tithe and the Scotch Private Legislation Bills. That is, no doubt, right and proper; but I think we should have a few days' notice of the Irish Bills, so as to enable us to put down our Amendments. We do not want to spend our Christmas in preparing Amendments. We cannot be expected to devote our whole lives to work of this kind. We ought to have ample notice as to when effective progress will be made with the Irish Bills in Committee.
  MR. W H. SMITH: I will undertake that the effective notice which the hon. Member requires shall be given. I think the hon. Member will agree that that is a course which has always been adopted by the Government, at the request of the Irish Members. No Bill other than the Scotch Private Legislation Bill and the Tithe Bill will be proceeded with in Committee before January 29th; and if the Tithe Bill is not through
  770
  Committee on that date, no other Bill will be proceeded with in Committee on that date. The hon. Member will see by the progress made with the Tithe Bill and the Scotch business whether the attendance of himself and his friends will be requisite. However, I will undertake that ample notice of the Land Bills shall be given.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolutions to be reported upon Thursday, 22nd January.

TRAMWAYS ORDER IN COUNCIL (IRELAND) (ATHENRY AND TUAM RAILWAY) BILL.—(No. 157.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,: Owing to this Bill not having been printed yesterday the House was not able to pass it through all its stages, as was intended. Even if the House agrees to pass it through all its stages at the present Sitting, it cannot become law before Parliament re-assembles in January, because it will be impossible to pass it through the House of Lords. Still, if all the stages are passed by this House, I think action may be taken on the Bill by the company, although it has not formally become law. I therefore suggest that all the stages should be taken at once.
  Bill read a second time, and committed; considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.

  ADJOURNMENT (CHRISTMAS RECESS).
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House, at its rising, do adjourn till Thursday, 22nd January, 1891."—(Mr. William Henry Smith.)
  MR. MARJORIBANKS: I would point out that great inconvenience will be caused to Scotch Members if the Scotch Private Legislation Bill is taken on the day of the meeting of Parliament. It has always been the custom to put off measures affecting the extreme parts of the Kingdom to some day after the day of the meeting of the House, Scotch Members

  771
  have no sort of idea of offering undue or obstructive opposition to the measure. I think Thursday, January 29th, would be a more convenient day.
  MR. A. ELLIOT: I consider it inconvenient not to go on on the earliest possible day with a measure we are interested in, and I may say, on behalf of the Scotch Members, that we have reason to feel considerable disappointment at no progress having been made with Scotch business before Christmas, seeing that there has been time and to spare. We could have made progress with Scotch business, and could have resumed the consideration of the Bills at the stage at which they were left when we met again after the holidays. I would protest against taking away precedence from the Scotch measure dealing with Private Bill legislation, as it is desirable that it should be passed with the utmost expedition. The Bill has been before the House year after year, either in the hands of private Members or in the hands of the Government, and yet we have made no progress with it. Scotland is anxious that the Bill should pass, and there are not many signs that it is likely to be opposed on its merits by Scotch Members; therefore, I would ask the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury to keep the measure well to the fore, giving it the, earliest possible place on the Paper.
  MR. COX: Before the House adjourns it would be satisfactory—to the Irish Members, at any rate—to know from the Chief Secretary whether he intends placing on the Table of the House the Reports of the two engineers he has appointed to make inquiries as to remunerative and useful works for the relief of distress in Ireland. I think it would be useful if he would state whether the Report will be submitted during the Recess or after the re-assembling of the House.
  MR. P. J. POWER: I think the Ashbourne Act has been more in operation in East Waterford than in any other district in the South of Ireland. I have received four large Memorials from tenants who have purchased on various estates. One Memorial is signed by tenants who purchased on Lane Fox's property, another by tenants who purchased on property
  772
  owned by Mrs. Curtis, and I have an immense Memorial here signed by nearly all the tenants on the Curraghmore Estate. The tenants on the Marquess of Water-ford's Estate say they are in arrear. Many of them are very largely in arrear. Though the potato crop has not been a complete failure, the yield has been much below the average. The yield of butter, too, has been very small. There have been several sales on the Curraghmore property owing to the tenants' failure to pay their install vents, and in some oases the Marquess of Waterford has re-purchased the holdings. I take it that when the Bill became law it was intended that landlords should not re-purchase holdings. At a Board of Guardians' meeting last week a man who had purchased his holding at 18 years' value applied for relief. He was unable to keep up the instalments, and those conversant with the property say his is only a typical case, and that before many years pass many more men will be compelled to apply for outdoor relief. Some people will say they made the bargains with their eyes open, and they have no one to blame but themselves. But we must acknowledge that when a person is in arrear, and likely to be thrown on the roadside, he is not in a condition to make a fair bargain, and many men in that position will accept terms which conscientiously they cannot fulfil, in the hope of putting off the evil day. The prayer of those who have signed the Memorials to the Land Commission is that the term for paying their instalments should be increased from 49 to 69 years. Some may say that is a very unreasonable proposal. Yes; but I presume you want dual ownership to end. I submit that in the interest of the community, and of the carrying out of the spirit of the Ashbourne Act, the prayer of the memorialists is worthy of the serious consideration of Her Majesty's Government.
  MR. SINCLAIR: I hope sincerely the First Lord of the Treasury will not accede to the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Berwickshire (Mr. Marjoribanks) with regard to the Scotch Private Bill Procedure Bill. I trust that this Bill, which the burghs of Scotland are extremely anxious to see passed into

  773
  law, will receive the assent of the House, but there will be considerable difficulty in attaining such, an object if the Bill is put behind other very important Bills with which the Session is already weighted.
  MR. ESSLEMONT: I desire to refer to another Scotch Bill—the Burgh Police and Health (Scotland) Bill. The other day the Lord Advocate renewed the offer of the Government to take the Bill if it could be taken unopposed. The right hon. and learned Gentleman also said the Government could not see their way to give any time for progress with regard to the Bill. I cannot help thinking that the Government are somewhat unreasonable. The Bill consists of 531 clauses, and therefore it is not unreasonable to expect the Government to give some time to its consideration. I wish now to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, if a private Member brings in this Burgh Police and Health (Scotland) Bill, the Government will give him, some benevolent assistance, so that the measure may be passed if possible. It interests the whole of the smaller burghs in Scotland and some of the larger burghs too, and under these circumstances I hope more reasonable counsels will prevail with the Government.
  DR. CAMERON: I would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to yield to the appeal which has been made to him by my right hon. Friend. I do not do so on the ground of the convenience of the Scotch Members. The convenience of some of us must be sacrificed, and I should be sorry to find Scotch Members making more of their convenience than others. But the Bill is a most important one in view of the principle it involves. The question has never been threshed out in the House at all. It was the subject of debate last Wednesday, but has never been debated as a Government measure and in a full House. It affects not only Scotland, but every English Railway Company that has running powers over Scotch lines. I am as little enamoured of the system of Private Bill legislation as anyone in this House, and should be glad to see it amended, but I think that when the question is dealt with it should
  774
  be discussed by all the Members of the House, as embodying a plan which, sooner or later will be extended to the other portions of the kingdom. It would certainly not be a wise thing to proceed with a measure of this sort in an empty House in the first days after the Recess.
  MR. C. S. PARKER: I so far agree with the hon. Member who has just sat down that I think it would be a mistake on the part of the Government to insist on great haste in dealing with a Bill that is generally approved of in point of principle, but which it would be scarcely safe to pass rapidly in a very thin House. If it should be put forward on the first day of the resumed Session I intend to be in my place to take part in the Debate upon it. It is, however, a Bill that ought to be discussed by English as well as Scotch Members. With reference to the Burgh Police Bill, the City of Perth is much interested in its becoming law. It has been exhaustively discussed both in Parliament and locally in Scotland. The opposition to it is limited to a very few Members, and it appears to me that if Scotland is to have confidence in the Imperial Parliament for Scottish legislation the Government ought to make an effort in favour of a Bill so well supported by Scottish opinion.
  MR. D. CRAWFORD: I wish to support the appeal to the Government that the Private Legislation Bill should be postponed for a few days. I think the popularity of the measure is considerably exaggerated in the minds of those who have spoken in its favour. No doubt, a change of some kind is required, but the Bill deals with questions of great difficulty and importance, and it would be very undesirable to let it be rushed through a thin House. I should think the Tithes Bill will fully occupy the attention of the Government at the beginning of the next Sittings, and it is only reasonable to ask that the Bill to which I refer should be postponed for a week or so. As to the other measure, it is a Government Bill, and is almost unanimously approved in Scotland. It was considered for two months by a Select Committee, and when it was ripe for passing and ready to pass, it was

  775
  only prevented from becoming law by a supporter of the Government putting down two or three pages of Amendments when there was only one day left. Under these circumstances, I think we have a somewhat special claim upon the consideration of the Government.
  SIR G. CAMPBELL: There are two sides to the question of the Burgh Police Bill. I quite agree that it contains much valuable matter and many useful clauses. If the Government would consent to make the Bill permissive, as many people in Scotland meant it, I for one, and I think many of those who oppose it, would be inclined to withdraw our opposition. If, however, it is to be imposed on all the small burghs the Government must expect strong opposition to it.
  MR. J. SEYMOUR KEAY: I desire to elicit a piece of information from the Chief Secretary with regard to a very important matter raised to-day by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bradford (Mr. Shaw Lefevre). He has on the Paper a Motion in which he moves for a Return, and we have just heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer in replying to my right hon. Friend intimate that he would give some sort of Return, though I did not exactly gather whether or not it would, as promised, satisfy the terms of the Motion of my right hon. Friend. In this connection I wish to fortify the Chief Secretary in making this Return as full as possible, and in doing this I would remind the House of a circumstance which is not likely to be forgotten, namely, that, on the occasion of bringing in the former Land Purchase Bill last Session, the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary, or the leader of the House—I have forgotten which—gave a pledge in response to the request of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Lothian, who expressed the desire that the Government would, in asking the House to deal with such a complex measure, lay as many Returns and Papers as possible on the Table so as to enable the House to arrive at a correct judgment on the many involved and important points in the Bill. The Government gave the desired assurance, and produced certain Papers on the last
  776
  occasion when this Land Purchase question was before us. Reminding the Government of this, I now beg them to give us an assurance that the Return the Chancellor of the Exchequer has promised shall give information in full, so as to satisfy the terms of the Motion and completely meet all the points raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: I wish to make an appeal to the Chief Secretary on the matter raised by my hon. Friend the Member for East Waterford (Mr. P. J. Power). He has informed the House as to the condition of the tenantry of the Lane Fox estate and Lord Waterford's estate, and what I ask the Chief Secretary to do is this. The right hon. Gentleman has assented to the Motion of the hon. Member for South Tyrone (Mr. T. W. Russell) for laying before the House the Judgment given by Chief Baron Palles in the well-known case of Mr. O'Brien Dalton. Will he also lay upon the Table of the House two Judgments of Mr. Commissioner Lynch in relation to certain of Lord Waterford's tenants, delivered a couple of years ago in the cases of "Welch v.Waterford" and somebody else v.Waterford? These Judgments show the genesis of the difficulties on Lord Waterford's estate. I learn from a report in a local newspaper that one of the tenants on the estate has become a pauper a year after he became the purchaser of his holding. The man was made a freeholder, he was rooted in the soil, and in consequence of the manner in which this operation was carried out he became an applicant for Poor Law relief. He went into the Land Court to buy under crowbar pressure, and the Land Court Judge gave his Judgment that this crowbar pressure was not duress. Mr. Foley went before the Guardians of the Union for relief as a destitute and evicted tenant. He was evicted by the Land Commission, and observe, no sooner was he evicted than Lord Water-ford bought back from the Commissioners his own holding. Now, I call this "bulling" the market. The landlord having parted with his shares—I call the land his shares—his shares in

  777
  Irish land at a high price, I will call it par; then, they having fallen in value, say 50 per cent., he purchases back the shares from the Commission, and pockets a handsome dividend by the transaction. Now this is a very serious state of things, and we prophesied that it would arise. We pointed out what would be likely to happen, and in the result you have the Waterford tenants evicted, and one of them appealing to the Carrick-on-Suir Board of Guardians for out-door relief. Is this not a painful position? Mr. Foley was asked several questions as to his tenure, and questions elicited the information that he purchased at 18 years on the old rent, which was reduced by £10. He was asked to purchase or to give up the land. Mr. Thompson, a Tory Guardian, asked how much rent was owing to Lord Waterford, and Mr. Foley said two years. Lord Waterford forgave him I suppose, as it is called, the 10 years' rent. He got 18 years' purchase on the old rent from the Land Commission. Now, I suppose the Chief Secretary will not pretend that it is acting from a statesmanlike view or from purely patriotic motives to conceal the truth upon these matters, and I ask him to lay on the Table the Judgment of Commissioner Lynch that it is not duress to compel a tenant, under threat of eviction, to buy at a given rate. I really cannot see the position of the Chief Secretary. He has struck out, I believe, all limitation of years' purchase. I understand in the old Bill the limit was 20 years, but now there is no limit, and we shall see the result. I beg of him, claiming conscientious motives as he does in forcing on this Purchase Bill—in forcing Irish tenants to buy at a rate fixed by the Land Commissioners under landlord pressure—I ask him, in the name of Heaven, if Ireland is to be a going concern under a Home Rule, Liberal, or Tory Government, not to load down under a horrible dead weight of debt miserable, impoverished tenants, forced to buy at a ruinous rate. Some of the Lane Fox tenants came to me and the late Mr. Biggar when we were in the district, and our advice was, Buy if you can get the land at a desirable rate. Mr. Biggar was most emphatic. You may say that
  778
  dishonest motives prompt this begging for a reduction now, and that the tenants have money in the stocking or the Savings Bank, but I do not believe you have so demoralised the Irish people that a body of them would be guilty of such a course of conduct, except under the greatest stress of circumstances. The Chief Secretary is willing to lay before us a Judgment of Chief Baron Palles whenever it is in his favour, though he refuses it when it is against him; but will he lay on the Table these Judgments of Commissioner Lynch? That the right hon. Gentleman approves of the actions of Mr. Commissioner Lynch we know from the fact that that gentleman's salary is to be raised by £1,000 a year. I do not see my way to support the suggestion that the number of years over which payments should be spread should be extended. I would not recommend it, for this reason: the more the period is extended, and the smaller the payments, the greater will be the bait held out to the smaller tenants to buy on the landlords' terms. I know that on the Duke of Leinster's estates, Lord Waterford's estates, and other estates in which I am deeply interested, there is a feeling in favour of a term of 69 years, and I know this will be an additional inducement to tenants to come to terms with their landlords. I do not advise that now; later on, perhaps, matters may be regarded in a different light upon the general policy of purchase. We may now fairly ask that we shall have laid down and placed before us the exact principles upon which the Land Commissioners will work, and we can have no better guide than the result of the purchases by the Waterford tenants.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,: I will first refer to the matters raised by the hon. Member for Waterford and the hon. and learned Member who has just spoken. I am asked to lay upon the Table a copy of the Judgment of Mr. Lynch in a certain case—
  MR. T. M. HEALY: Two Judgments.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: In certain cases connected with sales of Lord Waterford's property. Well, I will at once inquire from Mr. Lynch if any

  779
  authentic report of his Judgment exists, and I shall be happy to lay a copy on the Table of the House for the convenience of hon. Members who may wish through this means to make themselves acquainted with the methods adopted by the Commission in settling the terms upon which purchases have been effected. The hon. and learned Member for Long-ford (Mr. T. M. Healy) seems to agree with the hon. Member for Waterford (Mr. P. J. Power) in thinking that there was some undue profit given to Lord Waterford by permitting him to buy back land which had previously been sold to a tenant, subject, of course, to the annuity placed on the land by the process of sale. Well, if Lord Waterford gained by the transaction, it is evident that the terms were good upon which he sold to the tenant. He will not be able to sub-let without the consent of the Commissioners; and if Lord Waterford buys back the land, subject to the sale annuity, the tenant would pay, and, subject to the unavoidable difficulties of cultivation by the landlord, it conclusively proves that the tenant to whom the sale was effected must have had an uncommonly good bargain.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: He captured the tenants' interest.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: But I do not understand, so far as the facts have been laid before us, that there are any grounds for supposing this was a hard case for the tenant. We are informed that the sale was effected at 18 years' purchase, and, so far as my mental arithmetic goes, it will be found that involves a reduction in the previous rent paid by the tenant of 28 per cent. Now, I do not think the payment of rent reduced by 28 per cent. can be regarded as excessively hard upon the man who pays it. The hon. Member for Waterford (Mr. P. J. Power) pressed upon me the desirability of acceding to the terms of the Petition he read to the House, and of extending the term over which the payment is required from 49 to 69 years. The hon. Member for Longford objects to that proposal, and I agree with his objection; and, other terms of purchase being fairly settled, my own view is that the period of repayment should be adhered to. It will be noted by the House that I have no power to interfere. Nothing but legislation can
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  effect the change, and I am sure the House will pause for a long time before making the alteration. Then the hon. Member for Clare (Mr. Cox) asks me to lay upon the Table the Reports of the two engineers in relation to such public works as are intended to be undertaken in the West of Ireland. These Reports are not, I think, of a character to be safely laid upon the Table, because they do not give a list of the works actually going to be executed; they consist of plans and observations on possible works that might, should necessity arise, be undertaken. It would be inexpedient to raise false hopes by detailing a large number of works only some of which, should necessity arise, are ever likely to be carried out. The hon. Member for Elgin (Mr. Keay) asks if I will lay on the Table a full table showing the financial scheme of Purchase Bill No. 1. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated earlier in to-day's proceedings that he would consult with me and endeavour to lay such a table before the House, and the hon. Member may be assured that the pledge so given will be fulfilled. We will do everything we can to make the working of the scheme perfectly clear to every hon. Member. I think I have dealt with all the points that have been raised.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: The Scotch Bill, so far as I can learn, seems to be a very suitable Bill to put down for the first business on re-assembling after Christmas, for the reason that it seems to have little interest to Members generally. But my object in rising is to try to extract from the First Lord of the Treasury a promise that he will show some respect to private Members' nights. During this extra Sitting we gave up our time to the Government in order that this ante-Christmas Session might come to an end as early as possible. But now I hope we may look forward to our Tuesdays and Fridays, and I hope we may have some assurance from the Government that our nights on those days will be respected. It is rather hard, after we have obtained an opportunity in the Ballot, carefully prepared our subject, and secured the assistance of our friends to keep a House, that we should suddenly have our opportunity

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  taken from us at a very few days' notice. I hope also that when the Government do consider themselves under the necessity of asking for a larger share of the time of the House, they will take the whole of one private Members' night, and not as they did last Session— institute Morning Sittings at an early period, thus practically depriving private Members of both opportunities. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, after a Morning Sitting devoted to Government business, it is almost impossible to make a House at 9 o'clock except for a subject of the greatest interest. So far as I am concerned as a private Member, I desire to retain one night; and if the right hon. Gentleman finds he must infringe upon our time, let him lay hold of the whole of one of the nights—Tuesday or Friday—and leave us the other. I think we may fairly claim so much consideration having regard to the spirit we have all shown during the Sittings of the last few days, assisting the Government to make extraordinary progress with their Bills. The Government might, I think, reciprocate by some concession to the rights and privileges of private Members.
  DR. TANNER: I regret that the Chief Secretary is not now in his place, but I am glad to see the Attorney General for Ireland there, for I take advantage of the Motion now before the House to try and get some assurance in regard to two or three public works within my own constituency. I refer to the three light railway works mainly promoted by private enterprise, and in the present lamentable condition of affairs I trust we may have a full assurance that every possible assistance will be given towards the promotion of these works. Also I would invite an expression of opinion in regard to the lamentable condition of the poor in the Schull Union, upon which many representations have been made. Immediate action is necessary; the state of affairs does not admit of delay. The district is not within my own constituency; its Representative is absent through ill-health. Further—and I am putting these matters briefly as thus being more likely to get a satisfactory reply—I would ask that attention should be paid to the representations of Father O'Connor, the parish priest of Achill, as
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  to the starving condition of the poor people there, and that the Government should provide some means of employment and assistance for this population.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. W. H. SMITH,: In reference to what has fallen from the hon. Member who has just spoken, I have to say that my right hon. Friend and Her Majesty's Government are fully cognisant of their duty and responsibilities in the matters the hon. Member has alluded to. The hon. Member for Poplar (Mr. Sydney Buxton) has asked me to give a pledge in regard to private Members' nights, such as I think it would be scarcely prudent for me now to give. It is a very serious thing to give such pledges. We have the greatest possible regard for the privileges of private Members, and I desire that they should exercise those privileges to the fullest extent. Hon. Members have it in their power to give to the Government all the time that is considered necessary by facilitating the progress of Government measures, and by assisting the Government to pass those measures into law. If hon. Members opposite will assist the Government to the same extent as no doubt they have done in the course of the present Session, there will be little occasion to interfere with the privileges of private Members on the resumption of the Sittings after the holidays, but the hon. Member cannot expect me to make any engagement which would prevent the Government from carrying forward their own measures with reasonable speed. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Berwickshire (Mr. Marjoribanks) objects to the consideration of the Scotch Legislation Bill being appointed as the first business when we renew our Sittings, and I am always placed in a position of difficulty when these objections are urged—one portion of the House desiring progress should be made in one direction, other Members in another. Unfortunately, it is not in my power, much as I should like to do so, to meet the desire of every individual Member, but I may remind the right hon. Gentleman that the Government are only going to advance the Scotch Private Legislation Bill to the stage at which the other

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  Bills in the programme of the Government have arrived. We want to get the Bill into Committee, and it will then take its place among our other Bills. The right hon. Gentleman says he and other Members concerned have no objection on principle to the measure, and it is the principle that has to be considered on the Motion for Second Reading. It is not a measure of the first importance, but it is one whose adoption has been urged on the House many times by hon. Gentlemen from Scotland. The Government, therefore, feel bound to make an effort in the course of the present Session to pass the Bill; and I think that, on the whole, I am consulting the convenience of hon. Members and the interest of the measure by asking the House to proceed with its consideration on the re-assembling of Parliament. As the right hon. Gentleman approves of the principle of the measure, he need not be put to the inconvenience of attending on that day. The hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire (Mr. Esslemont) has referred to the Scotch Burgh and Police Bill, and the Government have received information from the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy that if every clause of the 571 the Bill contains, to which he takes exception, were omitted, then there would be no objection to it.
  SIR G. CAMPBELL: I beg pardon; that is not what I said. I said that if the Bill were made permissive like the other Bill I would withdraw my opposition.
  MR. W. H. SMITH: I hope that the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and the one or two other Members from Scotland who object to the Bill may be influenced by their colleagues not to avail themselves of the power of obstructing this measure of great domestic interest and importance, so that it may pass into law during the present Session. If hon. Members from Scotland will come to an understanding with one another upon the subject, the Government will certainly afford them an opportunity of passing the measure, giving them that benevolent assistance which is asked for. The Bill has been before the House several times, and has been received on a previous occasion almost without opposition. It ought not to be met by obstruction, which
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  would prevent progress being made not only with that, but with other important measures. I trust that now the House may be able to adjourn, and that we shall meet again in January determined to do our business as well and as efficiently as possible.
  Question put, and agreed to.

  LAND DEPARTMENT (IRELAND) [SALARIES, &c.]
  Committee to consider of authorising the payment, out of the Consolidated Fund, of the salaries, pensions, and superannuation allowances of the Land Commissioners, and the payment out of monies to be provided by Parliament of the salaries, remuneration, and superannuation allowances of the officers of the Land Department, and of the expenses of carrying into effect any Act of the present Session to constitute a Land Department, and to amend the Laws relating to the Purchase of Land in Ireland (Queen's Recommendation signified), upon Thursday, 22nd January.
  House adjourned at twenty minutes before Six o'clock till Thursday, 22nd January.