Commons Sitting of 23 March 1888

MINUTES.
STANDING COMMITTEES—Law and Courts of Justice and Legal Procedure, nominated; Trade (including Agriculture and Fishing), Shipping, and Manufacture, nominated.
PUBLIC BILLs—Resolution in Committee—Customs, Isle of Man.*
Ordered—First Reading—Metropolitan Board of Works Commission* [191].
First Reading?Railway and Canal Traffic * [190].
Second Reading—Westminster Abbey [165]; Stipendiary Magistrates (Pensions) [92] [House counted out].
Committee—Report—Third Reading—Statute Law Revision* [186], and passed.

Third Reading—Army (Annual)* [179]; East India (Purchase and Construction of Railways)* [143], and
passed.

COMMITTEE OF SELECTION (STANDING COMMITTEES) (SPECIAL REPORT).
Ordered, That the Committee of Selection have leave to make a Special Report.
SIR JOHN MOWBRAYaccordingly reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had nominated the following Members to servo on the Standing Committee for the consideration of all Bills relating to Law and Courts of Justice and Legal Procedure which may by Order of the House be committed to such Standing Committee:—Mr. Tyssen Amherst, Mr. Asquith, Sir G. Baden-Powell, Mr. J. B. Balfour, Mr. Bartley, Mr. Beach, Mr. Beadel, Mr. William Beckett, Mr. George Cavendish Bentinck, Mr. Bradlaugh, Mr. Jacob Bright, Mr. Bryce, Mr. Burdett - Coutts, Sir George Campbell, Mr. Jesse Collings, Mr. Commins, Mr. Curzon, Colonel Dawnay, Mr. Dillwyn, Sir John Dorington, Colonel Duncan, Viscount Ebring-
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ton, Mr. Arthur Elliot, Mr. John E. Ellis, Mr. Elton, Sir Thomas Esmonde, Mr. Finlay, Mr. Henry H. Fowler, Mr. Gardner, Mr. Herbert Gladstone, Lord Claud Hamilton, Sir W. Vernon Harcourt, Mr. T. M. Healy, Mr. Staveley Hill, Mr. Samuel Hoare, Mr. Hobhouse, Mr. Atherley-Jones, Sir Ughtred Kay-Shuttleworth, Mr. Kenyon, Mr. Compton Lawrance, Sir Charles Lewis, Mr. Lockwood, Mr. J. H. A. Macdonald, Mr. Frederic Maclean, Mr. Swift MacNeill, Mr. Madden, Mr. Mahony, Mr. Marum, Mr. Story-Maskelyne, Mr. Matthews, Mr. John Morley, Mr. William O'Brien, Mr. Pickard, Mr. Picton, Sir John Puleston, Mr. John E. Redmond, Mr. Russell, Sir Charles Russell, Mr. J. E. Spencer, Sir Richard Temple, Mr. Tomlinson, Sir George Trevelyan, Mr. Howard Vincent, Mr. Waddy, Sir Richard Webster, Mr. Whitmore, Mr. Wodehouse, and Mr. Stuart-Wortley.
SIR JOHN MOWBRAYfurther reported from the said Committee; That they had nominated the following Members to serve on the Standing Committee for the consideration of all Bills relating to Trade (including Agriculture and Fishing), Shipping, and Manufacture, which may, by order of the House, be committed to such Standing Committee: Mr. Addison, Mr. Asher, Mr. Baring, Mr. Barran, Sir Walter Barttelot, Sir Michael Hicks-Beach, Sir Edward Birkbeck, Mr. Bolitho, Mr. J. C. Bolton, Mr. Bonsor, Mr. Boord, Mr. A. H. Brown, Mr. Brunner, Mr. Burt, Mr. Joseph Chamberlain, Mr. Henry Chaplin, Mr. Childers, Sir Edward Clarke, Mr. Colman, Mr. W. J. Corbet, Sir James Corry, Sir Charles Dalrymple, Baron de Worms, Mr. Dillon, Mr. Dixon-Hartland, Sir George Elliot, Mr. T. E. Ellis, Mr. R. V. Penrose FitzGerald, Mr. Gilliat, Sir Julian Goldsmid, Mr. Goschen, Mr. Dwyer Gray, Mr. Grotrian, Mr. A. W. Hall, Mr. Hanbury, Mr. Frank Hardcastle, Mr. Timothy Harrington, Mr. Heneage, Sir William Houldsworth, Mr. Howell, Mr. Hoyle, Mr. William Lowther, Sir John Lubbock, Mr. M'Lagan, Mr. Mundella, Mr. Muntz, Sir Stafford Northcote, Mr. T. P. O'Connor, Sir Richard Paget, Mr. Parnell, Sir Joseph Pease, Mr. Richard Power, Mr. Rathbone, Mr. Edmund Robertson, Mr. J. Robertson, Colonel Saunderson, Mr. Craig Sellar, Mr. Sexton, Mr. Sinclair,

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Mr. Slagg, Mr. Samuel Smith, Mr. T. D. Sullivan, Mr. Wharton, Mr. Whitley, Mr. S. Williamson, Mr. C. H. Wilson, Mr. Winterbotham, and Mr. Wood.
Ordered, That the Report do lie upon the Table.

QUESTIONS.

  POST OFFICE (SCOTLAND)—COMMUNICATION FROM OBAN TO LOCHMADDY.
  MR. FRASER-MACKINTOSHasked the Postmaster General, Why the mail communication by steamer from Oban to Lochmaddy has been withdrawn; whether he is aware that great dissatisfaction and inconvenience has arisen in consequence to the people of North Uist; and, whether he can see his way to restore the communication, which had only been obtained a year ago after much solicitation?
  THE POSTMASTER GENERAL (Mr. RAIKES) (Cambridge University): With a view to give effect to wishes frequently expressed, a mail packet was recently established between Portree and Dunvegan, calling at Lochmaddy in both directions, and affording to Lochmaddy every day of the week, Sunday excepted, a convenient means of communicating with the mainland viâ Strome Ferry. It is in these circumstances that the continuance of the mail communication by steamer from Lochmaddy viâ Oban (which had been afforded under very different circumstances) did not appear to the Government to be justified; and I regret that I can hold out no prospect of its restoration.

  TRUCK ACTS (SCOTLAND)—DUNFERMLINE COAL COMPANY.
  MR. PRESTON BRUCEasked the Lord Advocate, Whether his attention has been called to an alleged breach of the Truck Acts by the Dunfermline Coal Company in February last; whether the complaint set forth a primâ facie case of breach of these Acts, such as would lead to a conviction if the facts were proved; and, whether he will communicate with the Procurator Fiscal, with a view to a reconsideration of his refusal to institute proceedings in reference thereto?
  THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. H. A. MACDONALD) (Edinburgh and St. Andrew's Universities): My attention has been called to this question, and I have made some inquiry, from which it appears that the Procurator Fiscal did not consider there was a primâ facie case made out on the information which was laid before him; and I am informed that, the case being a difficult one, he consulted the Sheriff Substitute, who agreed with this view, and thought he should not interfere. It appears to be a question of some doubt and intricacy; and I shall go into the matter more fully, and consider whether proceedings should not be instituted.

  LAND PURCHASE (IRELAND) ACT, 1885— LOANS.
  MR. MULHOLLANDasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether the loan sanctioned by the Land Commissioners under "The Land Purchase (Ireland) Act, 1885," amounted to over £3,600,000, while only about £2,000,000 has been paid to the vendors; what is the cause of the delay which has taken place in the issue of the loans; and, whether interest will be credited to the vendors from the dates at which the loans were sanctioned?
  THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER SECRETARY (Colonel KING-HARMAN) (Kent, Isle of Thanet)(who replied) said: The figures are substantially as quoted in the Question. The Laud Purchase Commissioners inform me that loans are provisionally sanctioned as soon as the Commissioners are satisfied as to the security; but it is, of course, impossible to pay over the purchase money until the vendors have proved their titles and executed the necessary conveyances. Every possible facility is afforded them for this purpose; but the greater or less expedition must necessarily depend on the nature of their titles, and on the energy of their solicitors in prosecuting the proceedings. The Commissioners have no power to allow interest on purchase money agreed to be advanced; but in cases where proceedings are likely to be protracted, landlords, by availing themselves of the provisions of the 14th section of the Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1887, may, by the investment of the purchase money, secure interest upon it pending the necessary legal investiga-

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  tions. They may also, by their agreements for sale, provide for the payment of interest by tenants pending the completion of the sale. It is expected that over £200,000 will be issued in the present month.

  VACCINATION ACT—MR. LESLIE CREERY, CLERK TO THE EAST ASH FORD BOARD OF GUARDIANS.
  MR. M'LARRNasked the President of the Local Government Board, Whether Mr. Leslie Creery, who, as Clerk to the East Ashford Board of Guardians, advises the Board to prosecute offenders against the Vaccination Act, is the same Mr. Leslie Creery who, as Clerk to the East Ashford Magistrates, advises the Bench as to what fines and costs should be inflicted on them; if so, whether it is in conformity with the Regulations of the Local Government Board that the legal adviser to the prosecutors should also be legal adviser to the magistrates; and, whether, in his capacity as clerk to the magistrates, he receives a portion of the costs of each of the cases, such as for summonses, and copies, administering oaths, &c. which, in his capacity as Clerk to the Guardians, he has advised should be prosecuted?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. MATTHEWS)(who replied) said: Mr. Creery is both Clerk to the East Ashford Board of Guardians and also Clerk to the Justices of the Division. tihe Local Government Board Regulations do not deal with the point of both these appointments being held by the same officer. I am informed by Mr. Creery that in his capacity as Clerk to the Justices he receives the costs and fees payable on all convictions; but they are at once credited to the County Authority, as he is, and has been for some time, paid by a fixed salary.

  EDUCATION DEPARTMENT—SCHEMES OF THE CHARITY COMMISSIONERS.
  SIR WALTER FOSTERasked the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education, Whether the Committee of Council on Education have now before them any Schemes of the Charity Commissioners involving the alteration of Trusts of any Charities; and, if so, whether he will
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  state the names of the Charities and the places to which they belong; the volume and page of the Charity Commissioners Reports in which the original Trusts are given; and, the amount of property and income approximately with which it is proposed to deal?
  THE VICE PRESIDENT (Sir WILLIAM HART DYKE): All Schemes of the Charity Commissioners which are before the Education Department are submitted to that Department under the provisions of the Endowed School Acts; and all those Schemes provide, in accordance with Section 9 of the Act, 1869, for the alteration of the existing Trusts of the Endowments dealt with. The information asked as to names, places, and amounts of income is from time to time, stated in the Appendix to the Annual Reports of the Commissioners. The Report for 1887 has been forwarded to the Home Office for presentation to Her Majesty, and will shortly be laid on the Table of the House. The information thus given removes all difficulty in referring in any particular case to the original Reports of the Commissioners of Charity (1818–37), which Reports are fully indexed. I will consider the possibility of giving an earlier publicity to the Scheme of the Commissioners in the localities affected.

  GENERAL CATTLE DISEASES FUND— INCOME AND EXPENDITURE.
  DR. KENNYasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, What is the total amount of the income of the General Cattle Diseases Fund since the passing of the Contagious Diseases Animals Act in 1878, and what is the balance (if any) now to the credit of that Fund; what was the amount in the £1 assessed by the Local Government Board under the Contagious Diseases Animals Act, on the various Unions in Ireland, and the dates upon which said assessments were paid; and, whether, since, as directed by the recent Order in Council, steps are about being taken to stamp out pleuro-pneumonia in the Dublin District, by the compulsory slaughter of all cattle that have been in any way, however remotely, exposed to contagion, and as such compulsory slaughter will benefit the cattle trade not of Dublin alone, but of the entire country, it is the intention

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  of the Irish Government to take advantage of section 83, sub-section 8, of the Act of 1878, to increase the poundage rate throughout the entire of Ireland to an extent under said sub-section sufficient to meet the claims for compensation arising out of the compulsory slaughter of healthy animals?
  THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER SECRETARY (Colonel KING-HARMAN)(who replied) said: The total amount received into the General Cattle Diseases Fund since the passing of the Act in 1878 has been £92,648 6s. 2¾d. The balance to the credit of the Fund on the 1st of the present month amounted to £9,168 10 s. 4d. The assessments referred to have been on each occasion ¼d. in the £1. The dates on which they were made are as follow:—December 24, 1879, February 3, 1881, June 19, 1882, December 13, 1883, July 22, 1885, and May 27, 1887—averaging about £14,300 each levy. Pleuro-pneumonia has been practically confined to the Dublin District for a very considerable period; and there can be no doubt that the continued and continuous existence of the disease in the Dublin dairy-yards is due mainly to their insanitary condition and the manner in which the cattle kept in them are housed and fed, and to concealment of disease from the proper authorities. Under these circumstances, it would be manifestly unfair to tax the whole of Ireland to meet cases for compensation in the Dublin District on an equal scale with the ratepayers of the affected Unions. The Government, however, recognize that the recent Order, while absolutely necessary, may press severely on the rates of the Dublin Unions if their resources are at once called upon to meet all the cases for compensation; and they are considering a scheme by which assistance may be given to the districts mainly affected by the Order in the event of its provisions being promptly obeyed and carried out.

  LOCAL TAXATION (IRELAND)— GRANTS IN AlD.
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR(for Mr. O'DOHERTY)asked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, What proportion the annual amount raised by county cess, borough rate, and other town rates bears to the total amount raised by local taxation in
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  Ireland; are any grants in aid of such county cess and town rates made from the Imperial Exchequer; and, why are the cesspayers practically excluded from such relief in aid?
  THE CHANCELLOR OE THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. GOSCHEN): According to the last Return, the total amount raised by local rates in Ireland is £2,797,451, and the county cess, borough rate, and other town rates amount to £1,760,125, or 63 par cent of the whole. The grant for the maintenance of pauper lunatics goes in aid of the county cess. It amounts to about £105,000. The counties also benefit by the cost of prosecutors and witnesses in Crown cases, which were formally provided for by presentment, being now borne by the Imperial Exchequer and by a small grant made to certain public infirmaries. But these are not, strictly speaking, grants in aid of the county cess. In the same way in towns in which the Commissioners are Urban Sanitary Authorities half the cost of the sanitary officers' salaries is borne by the Government; but it is the poor rates which are relieved by this, rather than the town rates proper. I think I may take the hon. Member's Question as indicating his wish that any further relief given to local rates in Ireland should be applied in aid of the county cess and town rates. I cannot, of course, make any promise now; but I note his wish.

  POST OFFICE (IRELAND)—PARCEL POST—SUNDAY WORK.
  MR. TUITEasked the Postmaster General, Whether the officers of the Parcel Post in Dublin are at present obliged to work for eight hours every alternate Sunday without any extra pay, and are only paid for every hour they are on duty after the first eight hours; whether, when the Parcel Post was established in 1883, the then Postmaster General gave an undertaking that no Sunday duty would be expected from the officers engaged in that service; and, whether, having regard to the fact that in London the Parcel Post officers are paid for every hour they are on duty on Sundays, the officers in the Irish Department will be placed on the same footing?
  THE POSTMASTER GENERAL (Mr. RAIKES) (Cambridge University), in

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  reply, said, he had put himself in communication with the Department; and as soon as he had received the desired information he would answer the Question of the hon. Member.

  THE MAGISTRACY (ENGLAND AND WALES)—THE ALNWICK BENCH— CONVICTION FOR STEALING JETTISONED TIMBER.
  MR. FENWICKasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether it is true, as stated in The Star newspaper on the 21st of March, 1888, that—
  "On the 31st of December, 1886, five men and one girl were brought before the Alnwick Bench of Magistrates, for having brought off the beach some pieces of timber,"
  and were fined—
  "£3, odd, each, with the alternative of one month each in gaol for the men, and 14 days for the girl;"
  whether the girl was taken to gaol on Saturday last, and those of the men who have not paid the fine are also "threatened" with imprisonment; whether the timber was washed in with the tide, and practically valueless; and, whether he can state the reason why the policeman refused the "offer of the men to go to gaol."
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. MATTHEWS): I am imformed by the Clerk to the Alnwick Justices that five men and a girl were convicted on the 22nd of December, 1886, for having in their possession timber which had been jettisoned from a stranded vessel, and had been salved by the fishermen and stacked on the shore. The statutory penalty for this offence is £20, or six months' imprisonment. Four men were fined £2; one man and the girl 10 s.; the alternative being a month and a fortnight's imprisonment respectively. Time for payment was given in each case. On the 10th of this month, three of the men only having paid, the Justices issued commitments against the rest. The girl paid on the 17th instant. The timber was not valueless; two of the pieces found in the possession of one of the defendants were valued at 4s. 2d., and four pieces in the possession of another defendant were valued at 6s. 10 d. The Justices did not wish to send the men to prison if they could help it.
  MR. FENWICKasked, whether it was not true that the men, during the
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  time of the trade dispute to which the right hon. Gentleman had just referred, said that they could not pay the fine, but offered to serve their term of imprisonment during the trade dispute; whether their offer to go to prison was not refused by the policeman; whether they did not offer to pay the amount of the fine by instalments; and whether that offer was also refused? He also asked the right hon. Gentleman to state why the sentence was deferred for such a length of time?
  MR. MATTHEWS: I am afraid I can only answer the last part of the Question. I understand the Justices to say that the payment was deferred from time to time, and that the Justices were unwilling to send them to prison, inasmuch as the men were out on strike, and unable to earn wages. Time was given on five occasions, until ultimately three of the men paid; and the Justices thought it was unfair to those three if proceedings were not taken against the others.
  MR. FENWICKsaid, the men told the policeman that they were unable to pay, and that they preferred to go to prison during the time of the trade dispute. Afterwards, when the men were in employment, they took them from their homes when they had offered to pay the amount of the fines by instalments.
  MR. MATTHEWS: If the hon. Member will give me particulars, I will make inquiries on the subject.
  MR. FENWICKgave Notice that he would repeat his Question, and would also ask the right hon. Gentleman to state further why the offer of the men was refused.

  ADULTERATION OF FOOD ACTS— AMERICAN REFINED LARD.
  DR. CLARKasked the President of the Board of Trade, Whether his attention has been called to the evidence given by George H. Webster, of Chicago, before the Committee at Washington, as reported in The Chicago Tribune; whether it is the case that the American so-called refined lard is composed of about 60 per cent of lard, 25 per cent of cotton seed oil, and 15 per cent of beef fats, and the mixture is stiffened with lard stearine; whether the manufacturers of lard in America use about $4,000,000 worth of cotton seed oil, and about $2,000,000

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  worth of beef fats; whether a large portion of this adulterated lard is sold as a food in this country under the name of refined lard; and, whether the present Acts against adulteration will meet this case?
  THE PRESIDENT (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH): The Board of Trade have not received a copy of The Chicago Tribune, referred to by the hon. Member; but they have official information as to the extensive use of cotton seed oil in the United States in the manufacture of lard. The substance of this information was published in The Board of Trade Journal for March. How far this adulterated lard is sold in the United Kingdom as food it would be impossible to say; but lard is imported in considerable quantities from the United States. As to how far existing Acts against adulteration will meet such a case, I am not in a position to give an authoritative opinion; but it would, no doubt, be contrary to the object of these Acts to sell an adulterated importation as genuine lard of home production.

  LOTTERIES ACTS—WILLIAM STREET REFORM CLUB, DARWEN.
  MR. BYRON REEDasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether his attention has been called to a lottery announced to be held on behalf of the William Street Reform Club, Darwen, on which occasion prizes consisting of a piano, a gold watch, and other articles are to be drawn; and, what stops he proposes to take in reference to the matter?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. MATTHEWS): I have not received any information with regard to this lottery. The local police can prosecute if there is a sufficient case; and I do not propose to interfere.

  ROYAL UNIVERSITY OF IRELAND— FELLOWSHIP IN NATURAL PHILOSOPHY.
  MR. M'CARTANasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether any appointment has yet been made by the Senate of the Royal University of Ireland to the vacant Fellowship in Natural Philosophy caused by the resignation of the Very Rev. G. Molloy; and, whether he
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  can state the date of his resignation, and the cause of the delay in making the new appointment?
  THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER SECRETARY (Colonel KING-HARMAN)(who replied) said: The Senate of the Royal University informs me that the Very Rev. G. Molloy resigned his Fellowship as from the 18th of April, 1887. They have postponed filling the vacancy, pending their decision in regard to the conditions of appointment and tenure of Fellowships which they have had under consideration.

  ARMY (AUXILIARY FORCES)—THE VOLUNTEER PERMANENT STAFF— PLAIN DRESS OFF DUTY.
  MR. KINGasked the Secretary of State for War, Why it has been decided to withdraw from the Permanent Staff serving with the Volunteers the privilege of wearing plain clothes when not on duty, which they have hitherto enjoyed; whether Commanding Officers of Volunteer corps have been asked their opinion on the matter; and, whether, as a fact, the majority of Commanding Officers have exercised the discretion given them under "Army Order 84, 1st March, 1888," par. 474 (a.) to permit Sergeant Instructors to wear plain clothes?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. E. STANHOPE): Members of the Permanent Staff of Volunteer corps serving on their Line engagement are soldiers of the Regular Army, and, as such, bound to appear in uniform. The matter is one of Army discipline, and would not be referred for the opinion of Commanding Officers of Volunteer corps. As, however, the circumstances under which Sergeant Instructors serve are sometimes peculiar, a discretion has been given to General Officers commanding Districts (but not to the Commanding Officers of Volunteer corps, as stated in my hon. Friend's Question) to allow, when expedient, a dispensation from the strict Rule.

  DISTURBANCES (METROPOLIS), NOVEMBER 20—ACTION OF THE POLICE.
  MR. PICKERSGILLasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether he will institute an inquiry into the truth, or

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  otherwise, of the following statement made by Mr. William Smith, bath attendant; 51, Lever Street, Goswell Road, E.C.:—
  "On Sunday afternoon, 20th November, 1887, about 3 o'clock, I was in a procession proceeding along Holborn to Hyde Park. As the procession approached Southampton Street, I saw a cordon of police drawn right across the roadway of Holborn. When the procession was from 20 to 30 yards from the police, the latter, without any notice or warning, ran towards the procession with their truncheons drawn. Before I had time to get out of the way, I was knocked down by a policeman with his fist. I was struck on the nose and mouth; three of my teeth were knocked out. I got up, and was immediately knocked down again by a blow from a policeman's baton over the right eye."
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. MATTHEWS): If Mr. Smith will make his statements not through the hon. Member in this House, but to a magistrate or to the Commissioner of Police, they will be duly inquired into. I am informed that there is no record of his having made any complaint.

  NATION AL DEBT (CONVERSION) BILL— TRUSTEES OF MARRIAGE SETTLE MENTS.
  MR. LEAasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether he has considered how (if the Conversion Scheme is carried) performance is possible in the case of a covenant in a marriage settlement to transfer to the Trustees thereof, for benefit of the younger children within three months after covenanter's death, £50,000 Bank Three per Cent Annuities?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. GOSCHEN): I think the hon. Member will find that the case he puts is met by a sub-section inserted in the Bill on Tuesday last, which provides that—
  "In any Act passed or instrument executed before the passing of this Act references to any stock liable to be converted or exchanged in pursuance of this Act may, if the stock is so converted or exchanged, be construed as references to new stock."

  THE MAGISTRACY (SCOTLAND)— SHERIFF CLERKSHIP OF FORFARSHIRE.
  MR. CALDWELLasked the Lord Advocate, Whether the Sheriff Clerkship of Forfarshire
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  has been filled up by the appointment of a gentleman holding the office of Clerk to the Justices of the Peace; and, if so, whether it is intended that he shall hold both offices?
  THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. H. A. MACDONALD) (Edinburgh and St. Andrew's Universities): I answer the first part of the Question Yes, and the second No.

  CRIMINAL LAW—EXECUTIONS AT HEREFORD—THE EXECUTIONER.
  SIR EDMUND LECHMEREasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether his attention has been called to the proceedings of James Berry, the executioner employed to hang two men at Hereford on the 20th of March last, who is reported in the local papers to have been
  "Fêted at a smoking concert at one of the hotels in Hereford on the evening preceding the execution, Berry himself being a performer;"
  and, whether, if such a report be true, he will take steps to prevent the repetition of such proceedings on the part of the officer charged with the duty of carrying into effect the extreme penalty of the law?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. MATTHEWS) (Birmingham, E.): Yes, Sir; I have seen a report in the local papers to the effect stated in the Question. The hon. Baronet is aware that the executioner is appointed by the Sheriff; and neither the Prison Commissioners nor the Secretary of State have any control over him or his movements. In 1885 the Governors of Prisons were instructed by the Secretary of State to inform the Sheriff that it was desirable that the executioner should be required to reside and sleep in the prison. I will consider whether, by additional instructions, I can prevent a repetition of such proceedings as the hon. Baronet has referred to.

  WAR OFFICE—THE ARMY MEDICAL STAFF.
  DR. TANNERasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether it is the intention of the War Office to prolong the period of foreign service for officers of the Army Medical Staff; and, whether, in the event of such an event

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  taking place, any compensation will be given for the increased risk?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. E. STANHOPE): The length of the term of foreign service will be extended by one year in all departments in the interests of economy, and for the purpose of lengthening the period of service at home. As the service of an officer is available wherever Her Majesty may require it, no case for compensation arises.

  IRELAND—DESTITUTION IN ARRAN.
  COLONEL NOLANasked the Chief Secreeary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If he has received any Reports from magistrates or others as to the destitution occasioned on the shallow soil of Arran by the past dry season; and, what measures have been undertaken by the Government to give seed potatoes or other relief to the Islanders?
  THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER SECRETARY (Colonel KING-HARMAN) (Kent, Isle of Thanet) (who replied) said: The Government have received Reports on the present condition of the Arran Islanders, which appears to be mainly due to a failure of the potato crop last year. They have arranged for the distribution of seed potatoes; but a difficulty has arisen in regard to obtaining a suitable time. A private Relief Committee has been also formed, who are about to furnish the Islanders with a supply of potatoes for current consumption.

  IRISH LAND COMMISSION—SUB-COMMISSION, CO. DOWN—FAIR RENTS— DECISION OF MR. E. GREER, ANTRIM.
  MR. DILLONasked Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland, Whether his attention has been called to a decision of Mr. Edward Greer, Chairman of the County Down Sub-Commission, delivered at Antrim on Monday last, whereby he dismissed the fair rent application of a leaseholder, named Edward Nelson, who is a tenant on the estate of Sir Richard Wallace; whether Mr. Greer held, on the authority of "Donoughmore v. Forrest," that the assignee of a lease which contains a clause against alienation, even though he had been accepted as tenant by the
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  landlord many years ago, is not entitled to the privileges of the Land Act of 1887 unless the lessor or landlord had, by endorsement in writing, consented to the alienation; whether it is a fact that upwards of 75 per cent of the agricultural leases in Ulster contain covenants against alienation, and that the practice generally followed on the assignment of leaseholds there was merely to enter the name of the assignee in the rent-book as the new tenant, and give him the rent receipts in his own name; whether he is aware that, if this narrow interpretation be put on the word "lessee" in "The Irish Land Act, 1887," more than half of the leaseholders in Ulster will be debarred from having fair rents fixed; and, whether, considering the importance of the subject, and the danger with which these leaseholders are threatened, the Government will take steps to have the benefit of the fair rent clause secured to all the leaseholders to whom it was intended to apply?
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. MADDEN): The Question of the hon. Member only appeared on the Paper this morning, and I, therefore, have been unable to obtain the necessary information as to the decision referred to in the Question. All I can say at present is, that I quite agree with the hon. Member as to the importance of the subject; and I shall take care to ascertain the grounds of the decision referred to, and consider them with reference to the working of the Act of last year.
  MR. DILLON: I shall repeat the Question after Easter.

  EMPLOYERS' LIABILITY BILL.
  MR. BURTasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether he can say when the second reading of the Employers' Liability Bill will be taken?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. MATTHEWS), in reply, said, that, in regard to the second reading, he wished to consult the convenience of the hon. Member and others who took an interest in the Bill. If the hon. Member would communicate with him on the subject, he would fix the second reading for a day generally acceptable.

  BOARD OF INLAND REVENUE—CONTRACTS WITH DE LA RUE & CO.
  MR. MOWBRAYasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, with reference to the contracts entered into by the Board of Inland Revenue in 1880 with the firm of De la Rue and Company, Whether he has called upon the Board of Inland Revenue for any explanation of the circumstances under which those contracts were made?
  MR. HANBURYalso asked, Whether the Inland Revenue Department itself had made any contract with Messrs. De La Rue & Co. for the supply of its own Department?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. GOSCHEN): I did not call upon the Board of Inland Revenue for such an explanation, for they at once communicated with the Treasury on the subject, and inclosed a copy of a Minute drawn up and signed by Sir Charles Herries, who, in 1880, was Chairman of the Board, in which the circumstances under which the arrangements with Messrs. De La Rue were concluded are fully detailed. I propose to lay upon the Table of the House a copy of the communication of the Board of Inland Revenue and of its inclosure. I may add that the Board—though they do not by any means accept the figures given by my right hon. Friend the Postmaster General as correct, and I did not understand him to have any authentic information on the subject—have long been aware that, owing to the fall in prices and improved processes of production, it is tolerably certain that when the contract expires in 1890 considerable savings will be effected.

  IRISH LAND COMMISSION—FAIR RENT APPLICATIONS, CO. DOWN.
  MR. M'CARTANasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, with reference to the new arrangements to be made in order to expedite the hearing of fair rent applications in the County of Down, Whether he can now state what those arrangements are?
  THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER SECRETARY (Colonel KING-HARMAN)(who replied) said: As has been already stated within the past few days, the Government are anxiously considering the question of the arrears in cases awaiting a hearing to have fair rents fixed in Ireland. They are not at present in a position to state what steps the Land Commissioners will take as regards individual counties; but they must manifestly be guided by considerations of the general claims of the public.
  MR. M'CARTAN: Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman state when he will be in a position to give us the information?
  COLONEL KING-HARMAN: No, Sir; I am afraid I cannot give the date.

  ELEMENTARY EDUCATION COMMISSION —TECHNICAL EDUCATION.
  MR. F. S. POWELLasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether he has ascertained what are the intentions of the Elementary Education Commission as to presenting a preliminary Report on Technical Education; and, whether they intend to present such a Report?
  THE FIRST LORD (Mr. W. H. SMITH): No, Sir; I have not been able to ascertain what are the intentions of the Elementary Education Commission as to presenting a Report on Technical Education.
  SIR BERNHARD SAMUELSON(a Member of the Commission)said, he might be allowed to state that the Commission had considered the question on the preceding day, and had decided not to make a preliminary Report for the present.

  JOINT STOCK LIMITED LIABILITY COMPANIES—INVESTMENTS.
  MR. WATTasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether he can state approximately the total sum which has been invested in Joint Stock Limited Liability Companies since the passage of the Act of 1862?
  THE FIRST LORD (Mr. W. H. SMITH): The Government have no information which would enable me to state, even approximately, what sum has been invested in Joint Stock Limited Liability Companies since the Act of 1862.

  FINANCE, &c.—SURPLUSES OF CIVIL LIST CLASSES.
  MR. E. ROBERTSONasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether there is now any objection of a public character to laying upon the Table of the House a Copy of such Directions as may have been made from time to time by the Lord High Treasurer or Commissioners of the Treasury, in conformity with the provisions of 1 Vict. c. 2, s. 9, with reference to any savings or surplus on any of the Classes of the Civil List, that at the end of each year it shall be lawful for the Lord High Treasurer or Commissioners of the Treasury for the time being, or any three or more of them, to direct the same to be applied in aid of the charges or expenses of any other Class (except the Fifth Class), or of any charge or charges upon Her Majesty's Civil List Revenues, in such manner as may, under the circumstances, appear to be most expedient?
  THE FIRST LORD (Mr. W. H. SMITH): I can hold out no hope of laying upon the Table any directions issued by the Treasury in regard to the savings on the Civil List. The arrangement between the Crown and Parliament is that the Civil List is only brought under the review of the House—(1) when there has been an excess on the expenditure; (2) on the demise of the Sovereign; or (3) when an application is made for a provision in excess of the amount fixed. None of these circumstances at present exist, and the question is not, therefore, one with which the House can deal. I would remind the hon. Member that on the 19th of March, 1872, a similar question was brought before the House by Sir Charles Dilke. The Return was refused by the Government of the day, and after debate the view of the Government was supported by an overwhelming majority. The 1 Vict. c. 2, s. 9, is to the effect that the Treasury may direct savings in any Class of the Civil List to be applied at the end of the year in aid of any other Classes (except the Fifth Class, Pensions), or of any charge on Civil List Revenues, in such manner as may, under the circumstances, be most expedient.
  MR. E. ROBERTSONasked whether the refusal of the House was not due
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  rather to a speech made just before by Sir Charles Dilke at Newcastle?
  MR. W. H. SMITH: It may be so; but I have no information on the matter.

  RAILWAYS AND DEEP SEA FISHERY HARBOURS (IRELAND).
  COLONEL NOLANasked the First Lord of the Treasury, When the Government intend to propose measures to give effect to the recommendation of the Royal Commission appointed by the present Government to consider the question of an extension of railways and of deep sea fishery harbours in Ireland?
  THE FIRST LORD (Mr. W. H. SMITH): The Commissioners themselves settled the order in which they should deal with the questions referred to them, and selected the drainage question as the one which was most urgent. Her Majesty's Government are pushing forward the steps necessary for giving effect to the drainage part of the Commissioners' Report; but they are not prepared to deal with the further questions of extension of railways and deep sea fishery harbours, both of which involve large financial arrangements, and both of which will require legislation, till they have had more time to consider the matter.
  COLONEL NOLAN: Do the Government intend to deal with the matter this Session?
  MR. W. H. SMITH: I am not yet able to say; but I hope to be able to inform the hon. and gallant Gentleman after Easter.

  IRISH LAND COMMISSION—THE WEXFORD UNION.
  MR. J. BARRYasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Has his attention been called to the Resolution of the Guardians of Wexford Union, passed on Saturday last, as follows:—
  "That we are greatly disappointed at the action of the Land Commissioners in only setting down 137 cases for hearing in this Union at the forthcoming Sub-Commission; whereas we understand that nearly 1,000 applications from this Union to fix fair rents were made before the 1st of November, 1887;"
  and, when do the Government hope to announce their intention as to strengthening the Land Commissions?
  THE FIRST LORD (Mr. W. H. SMITH): My at-

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  tention has only been drawn to the Resolution of the Guardians of Wexford Union by the Question of the hon. Member. Her Majesty's Government will do what they can to hasten the hearing of the applications to fix fair rents.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid, this was about the 40th time that the right hon. Gentleman had promised that. He asked, would the right hon. Gentleman now give them some definite idea as to whether the Government in Ireland were waiting until the tenants' six months' period of redemption ran out, when their last chance of benefiting by the Land Act of the past year would be gone before taking steps in the matter?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The hon. and learned Gentleman is perfectly aware of the difficulty. He knows that it is not such an easy and simple matter as it looks to increase the strength of the Land Commission to the extent that is necessary. The Government fully recognize the importance and urgency of the matter, and they are doing their best to press it forward.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: Will the right hon. Gentleman state, in view of the fact that four months have now elapsed since something over 40,000 cases have been put into the Land Court, and that they have done nothing to meet the emergency, when they will be able to do something?
  MR. T. W. RUSSELL: Before the right hon. Gentleman answers that Question, will he be kind enough to state for the information of those who are interested in this question—and they include every Member representing an agricultural constituency in Ireland—whether he can give the information required before the House adjourns for Easter?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I really do not know what answer the hon. Member expects beyond that which I have already given—namely, that I am doing all I can to press on the matter. That, surely, ought to satisfy the hon. Member.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNOR: Can the right hon. Gentleman give us some indication of what are the difficulties standing in his way? Is it that there are not a sufficient number of applicants for Sub-Commissioner-ships?
  MR. T. M. HEALY: In order to avoid attention being called to the subject by a Motion for the adjournment of the House, will the right hon. Gentleman state whether there are any more difficulties in the way of the present Government than existed in 1881, when means were immediately taken, after the passing of the Land Act of that year, to appoint a sufficient number of Sub-Commissioners; and, whether there were not more applications in 1881 than there are now in 1888; and what are the difficulties which the Government experience?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Obviously, I cannot answer the hon. and learned Gentleman's Question as to what was done in 1881 without Notice; but I think the hon. and learned Gentleman will see that there are necessarily difficulties in the matter. There are Treasury difficulties, and there are difficulties in appointing the necessary Sub-Commissioners—if, indeed, the method to be adopted by the Government necessarily consists of appointing extra Sub-Commissioners. But I am desirous, if I can, of finding some other method than that, and that necessarily causes delay.

  RAILWAY AND CANAL TRAFFIC BILL.
  In reply to Mr. MUNDELLA (Sheffield, Brightside),
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH)said, his object in putting down the Bill for the 5th of April was that he should then be able to name a day for the second reading. He was anxious to take the second reading as soon as possible, in order that the Bill might be referred to a Grand Committee.

  INDIA—THE SIKKIM EXPEDITION.
  MR. BRADLAUGHasked the Under Secretary of State for India, Whether any news had been received to-day from Sikkim?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE (Sir JOHN GORST) (Chatham): I am happy to be able to inform the House that a telegram received this morning from the Viceroy at Calcutta states that—
  "The Lingtu Fort has been occupied without resistance; garrison has fled; fort now being demolished."

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY.—COMMITTEE.
  Order for Committee read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

  PERPETUAL PENSIONS.
  RESOLUTION.
  MR. BRADLAUGH, in rising to call attention to the Report of the Select Committee on Perpetual Pensions, and to move—
  "That, in the opinion of this House, steps should be forthwith taken to give effect to the Report of the said Committee; and that, considering the large and increasing annual charge upon the country for general pensions and non-effective services, it is desirable to adopt measures for the thorough revision of the entire pension system,"
  said, that the subject divided itself into two heads, of which the first—namely, that relating to perpetual pensions—had now become of comparatively minor importance, for since the matter was first raised in the House a large number of perpetual pensions had disappeared by commutation. The second portion of the Motion was not only very much the more important, but was also much the more difficult, because on the first he was fortified in the action he now took by the unanimous Report of the Select Committee, on which the Government's own Attorney General sat; on the second—though he could easily point out the evil—he did not pretend he could be as clear as to what the proper remedy for the evil was. It might be—though he hoped it world not be—that the noble Lord the Member for South Paddington (Lord Randolph Churchill) would think that he had a right to complain that in the second part of the Motion he was trespassing on the ground he was attempting. If he did, he should plead as an excuse that in one of the noble Lord's speeches during the vacation he held out to him an inducement to take the matter up in the House. He would now refer to the Report of the Select Committee, in which they were unanimous, although the Radical element in the Committee was in a perfectly small minority. The Committee reported—
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  "That pensions, allowances, and payments ought not in future to be granted in perpetuity, on the ground that all such grants should be limited to the persons actually rendering the services intended to be rewarded by such grants, and that such rewards should be wholly or in main part defrayed by the generations benefited by the services so recognized. That it is unjust that future generations should be burdened with payments to persons who have had no share in the original services. That offices with salaries and without duties, or with merely nominal duties, should be abolished. That all existing perpetual pensions, allowances, and payments, and all hereditary offices should be determined and abolished. That in all such commutations the Lords of the Treasury should take into consideration the circumstances of such pension, allowance, or payment, and whether or not any real service had been rendered by the original grantee or was now performed by the actual holder of the office."
  The Committee further reported—
  "That in all cases the method of commutation ought to involve and insure a real and substantial saving to the nation."
  He now asked the House to give effect to the recommendation of the Committee, and in doing so he trusted that he should be fortunate enough not to raise any kind of Party feeling, and that he should win the consent of the Government to carry out the recommendations of a Committee of which their own Attorney General was a Member. There now remained uncommitted 76 perpetual pensions, involving an annual payment of between £60,000 and £70,000, and they varied from £19,000 a-year to £1 and a few shillings a-year. He, however, proposed to deal on this occasion with only two, one relating to the Duchy of Cornwall and one relating to the Duchy of Lancaster. With regard to the former, amounting to £16,216, it appeared that it was granted in 1838 to the Duchy of Cornwall for the loss of the annual revenue of £11,536 derived from tin coinage duties, post groats, and white rents. It appeared, however, that for the 10 years preceding the 1st of October, 1838, the Duchy of Cornwall had only received £10 per annum in respect of these post groats. By a Treasury Minute dated 1839, it was stated that His Majesty King William IV. had expressed his intention that the post groats in Cornwall should cease after the 5th of April, 1841, on the termination of the existing lease, and that Her present Majesty on her accession had been pleased to confirm such intentions, and

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  that, therefore, it did not appear to the Lords of the Treasury that the sum of £630 14 s. 2d. should be provided for beyond the 5th of April, 1841, and that the compensation should be diminished after that date. It would, therefore, appear that a perpetual pension of £16,216 had been granted in respect of the loss of the annual sum of £11,300, and that a part of the former sum consisted of the annual sum of £630 14 s. 2d. granted in respect of the loss of an annual sum of £10. The annual payment of this sum of £630 14 s. 2d. had, however, been continued ever since 1841 without any legal authority and by what might be termed the quiet connivance of the Treasury. It was a monstrous thing that such an unjustifiable payment should continue. He also asked the House to take into consideration the payment of £800 per annum to the Duchy of Lancaster for "butlerage" and "prisage." Presage was the right which the King had by ancient prescription of taking to his own use and at his own valuation as much of all merchandize belonging to merchant strangers out of every ship importing the same as he had occasion for. A perpetual pension in consideration of this "butlerage" and "prisage" had been granted to the Duke of Grafton. It had been sometimes said that the whole question of perpetual pensions was a small one, but if the whole amount which had been paid in respect of all the existing and the commuted perpetual pensions had been invested at compound interest the nation would not only have been able to pay off the National Debt, but would have had several hundreds of millions of money in hand. He (Mr. Bradlaugh) further found that an annual payment of £100 10 s. 10 d. had been commuted for the sum of £2,700. The original sum was the aggregate amount which suitors had to pay to their Earls on going to the County Courts in the time of Henry III. He would not, however, trouble the House further with perpetual pensions, but would proceed to other points raised in the Report. In coming to the general Pension List he (Mr. Bradlaugh) fully admitted that, in whichever way they dealt with the question, huge difficulties stared them in the face. He believed that Parliament had already on one or two occasions tried to deal with the subject but
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  had failed, and he imagined there was no logical way out of the difficulty except one in which he did not think the House—not even his Radical friends—would hardly support him. This solution was in the direction of the view advocated by Joseph Hume, that no servant of the State ought to receive a pension for services rendered to the State unless he was injured in its service. Joseph Hume also held that the servant of the State ought to be compelled, by the ordinary consideration which impelled every human being struggling for existence, to provide by his own thrift and economy against a time when he could no longer work and when sickness came upon him. He submitted that the sum for pensions of nearly £7,000,000 sterling, which was constantly growing, despite commutations, would grow to such a degree that in hard times the House would find that it was one of the matters which would call forth the loudest denunciations of the people in their misery. He would mention some of the suggestions which had been made to deal with this question rather than venture to propose any special remedy of his own. Perhaps one of the ablest compositions on this subject was a Memorandum by Sir Robert Hamilton, to be found in the appendix of the Report of the Civil Service Commission. There was a point raised in that Memorandum which was often raised in conversation—namely, all the servants of the State were in a different position from ordinary employés, and ought, therefore, to be differently dealt with. But they did not superannuate or pension all servants on length of service or for sickness. There was an excellent class of public servants known as "temporary" Civil servants. Although most of them had been over 25 years, some of them 30 years in the Service, none of them were entitled to any kind of superannuation because they happened to be called "temporary" Civil servants. Sir Robert Hamilton said that superannuation could not be defended as a charitable institution, but it could be defended on the ground that it was a means of procuring cheaper service and keeping down the amount of the salaries. He (Mr. Bradlaugh) maintained, however, that the experience of the last 30 years showed that the statement was not true.—that the system of pensions kept

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  down salaries. Compared with the general service through the State he urged that they did not get such services cheaper; they often paid more for, and got less out of their servants than any other employer. The present system of pensions was demoralizing to the age, discouraged industry and thrift, and was an incentive to idleness. It was a condition of employment demoralizing to the employed. Being assured in their position, and with the knowledge that they would have a pension at a certain period, Civil servants were disposed to do as little work as they possibly could, especially some of those who filled the higher grades of Departments. With reference to the Army pensions he would only select one or two of the most remarkable instances which came to his notice lately. One was that of a gentleman who died last week in Westmoreland. He was held in such high respect in the neighbourhood that the local paper which announced his death appeared with mourning borders. The gentleman had filled the office of Clerk of the Peace, and, indeed, of almost everything official in the district where he lived. In addition to the emoluments he received from these offices, he had drawn a military half-pay for over 70 years. At 12 years of age he became an officer in the Army. In 1815 he started to join in the war, but the war ceased while he was in the course of his journey; and from 1815 to the day of his death last week this gentleman had drawn a military pension for services he had never rendered. What was the use of going through the farce of the House holding the purse strings of the nation, if it held them so lightly? There were a very large number of cases of this kind. The Civil Service Commission pointed out that in the re-organization of the Accountant General's Department of the Admiralty in 1877 the numbers of the staff were 259, costing £70,562. In 1881 the numbers were 245, and the cost £55,885; in 1885 the numbers were 267, and the cost £61,324, although pensions to the amount of £20,097 a-year and bonuses of £51,299 had been granted on reorganization that were supposed to reduce this kind of thing. He again asked the House what was the use of placing Estimates on the Table, criticizing them, and moving reductions of a few sums,
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  if this National burden was to go on constantly swelling? Those burdens were considered to press most severely on labour in this country; every pension reduced the purchasing power of the wage-earner's wages. As a further example of the abuse of pensions, he would remind the House that some time ago he put a Question to the Secretary of the Treasury with regard to a gentleman who was receiving a pension up to the age of 137 years, at least that was what the official records stated, and he, of course, relied on them. That gentleman came into his pension at the age of 68, and at the time he retired he was page to the Princess Charlotte of Wales. They could thus prove by a sum in arithmetic that the enjoyment of a pension beat Old Parr's Life Pills altogether as a means of prolonging human life. There would be no hardship in abolishing pensions in the Government Services. They were not paid in any merchant's office. There the employés, by means of life insurance, sick and provident societies and thrift, made provision for old ago and incapacity; but by the system of pensions the moral obligations of a whole class of persons who came upon the bounty of the State were destroyed. He hoped the Government would not oppose the Motion. He had not ventured to commit them to the course they should adopt with reference to pensions generally; but he thought there must be enough material to warrant that a small and strong Committee should be appointed to endeavour to find the most reasonable way out of the difficulty. He would leave the question of perpetual pensions to the absolutely unanimous Report of the Committee on the subject. He asked hon. Members who had Notices of Motion on the Paper in regard to the employment of the unemployed to join with him in doing that which would render the condition of the employed better, and would lesson the burdens which fell upon all industry. The country looked to that reformed Parliament to do something like justice in that matter, without regard to politics. These should not be Party questions. There was one class of pensions for which he could find no defence, though he had tried—he meant those mentioned at pages 51 and 52 in the accounts for the year under the heading of political and diplomatic pensions. They seemed

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  to him to have less justification than any others. The noblemen and gentlemen mentioned in the pages to which he referred were, in the belief of the people, out of the need of such pensions. They seemed to rest on less justification than any others. He did not say that they had a right to go back on those pensions which had been already granted; but he asked the House to come to the decision, on the Report of some such Committee as he suggested, that they would not make their professions of economy unreal, but would make them practical, and that they would sweep their own doorsteps first. The hon. Member concluded by moving the Resolution of which he had given Notice.
  MR. JENNINGS, in seconding the Resolution, said, that the junior Member for Northampton had rendered good service for some years past in endeavouring to call the attention of the country to the abuses of the pension system. No doubt, there were many instances in which perpetual pensions were given for distinguished services in the Army and Navy; but in the majority of cases those pensions were such as the country ought never to have been saddled with. In some instances the money had not been paid, and was not even now paid to descendants of the persons to whom the pensions were originally granted, a pension having been bought and sold in the market more than once, and nobody was able to explain the reason for which it had been given. The case of the Penn pension was a scandalous and notorious one. William Penn never rendered any services to this country, and had no claim upon it; he was simply compensated by the State of Pennsylvania for any losses he had sustained. Yet down to 1881 £4,000 a-year was paid on account of that pension, and then, to complete the transaction, £107,000 was paid for its commutation. Thus close on £500,000 was wrung from the British taxpayer, and paid to persons who were not even descendants of the man to whom the pension was originally granted, and who himself never had any claim on the nation. That was one of the most extraordinary jobs to be found in the political history of the country. Again, many years ago, there was a Mr. Heneage, who held the office of Hereditary Grand Proclamator
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  and Usher with a salary of £588 a-year. No doubt, the duties of the office were entirely visionary, though the salary was tolerably substantial. That case became so glaring that the post was abolished, but the salary was transmitted to the descendants of the Chief Proclamater. The claim was ultimately commuted for £15,852, the whole affair being from first to last nothing less than an outrage on the people of this country. As the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Bradlaugh) had stated, most of those pensions had been commuted; but, unfortunately, one of the most scandalous of the whole still remained on the list—that of the so-called Master of the Hawks. It was conferred 200 years ago on one of the sons of Nell Gwynne, for the ostensible purpose of supplying hawks, and pigeons to feed the hawks, and meat to feed the pigeons, and ever since then £1,000 a-year had been taken under these false pretences from the taxpayers for the purchase of hawks, pigeons, and meat. On his asking Sir Reginald Welby whether there was any prospect of the termination of that pension, the answer he received was that, so far as the Treasury was concerned, the money would have to be paid for ever. He ventured, however, to express a hope that the House would decide differently, and that the pension, which was a species of legalized blackmailing, would be summarily put an end to. If the House would kindly look at the Instructions given to the Committee on Perpetual Pensions, they would see that it was directed to inquire how far the present pensions should be continued, having due regard to the just claims of the present recipients and to economy in the Public Expenditure. Tested by those principles, he asked the House what right had the St. Alban's family to the continuance of that pension? There was no conceivable right, unless it was that the taxpayers had been defrauded to the amount of £225,000 in the past. That fact, however, hardly established a right to defraud them out of another £225,000 in the future, or to repeat the process as long as the British Empire lasted. They were told in the Committee upstairs more than once that if they interfered with the claims of individuals they would commit the sacrilegious crime of destroying vested

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  interests. They had heard a great deal in Committee and elsewhere about vested interests, and it struck him as a curious thing that it was always the vested interests of individuals that were referred to, and that the vested interests of the public never got even a passing notice. He would venture to suggest that in asking the House to abolish the St. Alban's pension without further form or ceremony, they were only asking it to follow a very important precedent set by a Committee of the House in 1838. That Committee recommended that six pensions should cease at a much earlier period than that for which they were originally granted, and that 14 other pensions should absolutely cease then and there, no more money being paid to the recipients of the pensions than was due on the date the Committee made their Report. It seemed to him that that was a precedent quite good enough to follow in the case of the monstrous pension to the Master of the Hawks. The whole system of perpetual pensions was a relic of the good old times, when the institutions of the country were supposed to be kept up for the benefit of a few privileged families, while the common people were expected to return humble thanks, morning, noon, and night, for the privilege of being allowed to toil for these superior beings. There were still many persons who seemed to think that this country was a sort of free warren in which Providence intended them and their descendants to multiply and grow fat. But that was a tradition which was bound to perish in a short space of time, and it would be a great step towards bringing it to a final end if the House voted the Resolution which had been moved by the hon. Member for Northampton. The second part of the Resolution suggested that the whole pension system of the country required revision. Of course, it must be admitted that there were many cases of persons who had served the State, or were serving it, who deserved pensions. Our soldiers, our sailors, postmen, and many others of that class fully deserve pensions, for the simple reason that they were underpaid during the greater part of their lives. But he maintained that clerks in Public Departments who received from £600 to £1,200 a-year for
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  work, if it could be called work, had no earthly claim to be supported by the State after their period of service was over. He would ask hon. Members to look over the Pension List and examine it carefully. It would be found that it was made up, not of persons who had been underpaid all their lives, but of persons who had been overpaid. Some appeared on the List because they had been used as Parliamentary tools and hacks; others because they had been useful in electioneering operations; and others because they were of no earthly use to anybody, and it had been found absolutely cheaper to pay them for doing nothing than to keep them muddling around Public Offices. On that point much evidence had been given before the Commission on the Civil Services now sitting. Mr. Collet, the Director of Naval Contracts, stated that the reorganization of his Department meant the pensioning off of a lot of incompetent men. It could be proved that the reorganization game, as played at the Admiralty, had burdened the country with hundreds of persons who were heavily pensioned for no other reason than that they were found so intolerably useless that it was desirable on any terms to get rid of them, or their places were wanted for the friends of newcomers into office. It would be seen, by an examination of the Return moved for by the hon. Member for Morpoth (Mr. Burt), that in 1857 the reorganization of the Accountant General's Department alone cost £4,517 a-year in pensions; in 1869 another reorganization cost £8,400 a-year; and in 1878–9 a further reorganization cost £21,000 a-year in pensions and £52,000 in bonuses. Clerks who at that time were not more than 42 or 43 years of age received pensions of £328 a-year, and bonuses of £600 or £700. Another thing in connection with these pensions, which, he believed, was peculiar to this country, was that a man who received a very high salary in a Public Office was provided with a comfortable pension when he was bound to go out of office, which pension he received until he got another appointment, so that whether in or out of office the country took care of him. No matter what changes went on in the political world, he had a good salary or pensions. There was one case, at least, at the present moment which was nothing

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  more or less than a public scandal. There was an amount of £1,200 a-year added to the Civil List on the recommendation of the Ministers of the day. The object for which that money was provided by a Resolution of that House in 1834 was that it should be annually given to those who by personal services to the Crown, by the performance of duties to the public, or by useful discoveries in science, or by their attainments in literature and the arts, had merited the gracious consideration of the Sovereign and the gratitude of the country. No one who was acquainted with the way in which these matters were managed in this country would be surprised to learn that literature, science, and art had seen very little indeed of this money. The pensions had generally gone to political friends of the Ministers of the day, or to someone who was already receiving pensions from another Department of the State, and literature, science, and art had been coolly kicked out-of-doors. It was very difficult to get together the instances in which these pensions of £1,200 a-year had been awarded. They were not published in any one Paper. They appeared in separate Papers, but were not brought together. He had been over these Papers, and he would venture to trouble the House with two or three specimens of the way in which the fund for the relief of necessitous persons had been applied. Joseph Haydn, the author of The Dictionary if Dates, who was living in great want and misery, was allotted a pension of £25 a-year in order to make his declining years more comfortable. The widow of Thomas Hood received £100 a-year, and the widow of Douglas Jerrold also received £100 a-year. Those were genuine pensions given to literary persons, or those who were nearest and dearest to them in the world. But let them compare with these the pension given to Prince Lucien Bonaparte, who received £250 a-year from the same fund, which was understood to be intended for the recognition chiefly of services connected with literature, science, and art. Another pension of £500 a-year was given to Lady Stratford de Redcliffe out of the same scanty fund, although her husband received enormous sums during his period of service to the State. Whether Lady Stratford de Red-
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  cliffe deserved a pension was one thing, but whether it should be taken from this scanty fund, while poor literary men and artists were allowed to starve, was another question which he would leave to the House. Surely there were other funds from which these extravagant pensions might be taken. The principle on which the pensions were awarded often baffled comprehension. Two years ago £100 a-year was awarded to Mr. Augustus Mongrodien, while Mr. Jefferies, an author of great and singular merit, who had added very charming books to the literature of this country, was vainly seeking a pension, and was allowed to pass the remainder of his useful days in the utmost penury and want. Would any three Members of that House say that Mr. Mongredien deserved £100 a-year for anything which he had written? That pension was a specimen of the maladministration of the fund. The fund was small at the best, and it ought to be awarded by the Minister of the day with the utmost discretion, tact, and good feeling. He came next to pensions given to Civil servants. He had counted 406 persons who were comfortably pensioned off before they were 40 years of ago, and 774 who were pensioned off when between 40 and 50 years of age, or 1,180 who received pensions before they had reached 50 years of age. Scarcely one of them, as far as he could ascertain from the records, deserved either a large salary or a pension. In 1851 a pension of £500 a-year was given to a man of 25 years of age. What service could he have rendered to the country to deserve such a pension as that? Another person of 25 years of age got £300 a-year, and a lad of 22 got a pension of £150 a-year. He contended that if there were any principle under which these persons were entitled either to pensions or compensation allowance, that principle ought to be abolished forthwith, and nothing should be paid to persons who had done nothing for the country. In the Foreign Office a chief clerk received a salary of £1,250 a-year—and from his observation of the world he should say that £1,250 a-year was a very fair salary for a chief clerk, and that there were many men who would do the work for half the money. This gentleman, however, received in addition £950 a-year in the shape of compensation for the abolition of certain

  205
  imaginary agencies, so that he got altogether £2,200 a-year. Prince Bismarck got £1,500 a-year; but, no doubt, this Foreign Office clerk was worth more than Prince Bismarck, and they had been told that they must not compare anything German with anything English. Another clerk in the Foreign Office received a salary of £925 a-year for 29 years, and at the age 47 he was retired on a pension of £650. No one could say that this clerk had served an ungrateful country. In the Bankruptcy Department of the Board of Trade it was found that 14 persons were not required, and they were quartered on the taxpayers at a cost of £3,135 a-year. If they had been employed by a private firm they would simply have received notice to go and there would have been an end of the matter. One of these persons after 14 years of easy service received a pension of £1,200 a-year. This was what was called managing the funds of the country in an economical and creditable manner. In 1859 several offices connected with the Order of the Bath were abolished. One of them was a "blanc Coursier Herald," whatever heraldic prodigy that may be, and he received £124 a-year for life. Admiral Seymour held three offices and received a different pension for each, in addition to his other emoluments, which were very considerable. The best thing that could happen to a man in the public employment was that his office should be abolished. It was true that he lost his appointment, but he retained, what he valued far more, the emolument, and whatever happened he was well taken care of for the rest of his life. He would ask hon. Members to look at a case, which would be found in the Appendix, on page 8, of a Consul who retired in 1852 and was supposed to be done with. Yet this gentleman had been receiving a pension of £600 a-year ever since, and he was at the mature age of 38 when this stroke of good look overtook him in the entire abolition of his office. Then there was the Second Secretary at Constantinople, who retired at the age of 44 with a pension of £900 a-year. There was an extra chaplain, who had only served for two years, and had preached, perhaps, 100 sermons, more or less indifferent, during that period, and who was retired on a pension of £75 10 s. for life, after having received his salary of £350
  206
  a-year for two years. He had now received £1,600, and the profits were still pouring in. Clearly, literature, science, and art were not in it with the chaplains. A third class interpreter in China was paid £528 a-year, and then retired exhausted at 32, after 11 years' service, with a pension of £146 a-year. Ill-health was the cause assigned for the retirement in 1875; but, as he was still alive, it was probable that the pension had re-invigorated him. Then there was the solicitor in the Office of Works, who received £1,800 a-year, and was pensioned off in 1868 at £1,200 a-year. They all knew that solicitors got the best of it in this world; but he thought that very few of them drew such a prize as that, The Legal Profession, as anyone would suppose, came well out of a scramble of this kind. There was the case of Sir T. B. Maule, Director of Public Prosecutions, who received a pension of £500 a-year for life after four years' service. He called that a monstrous abuse of the public money; and he believed the country, when the facts came to the knowledge of the taxpayers, would regard it as an outrage upon them. The Legal Visitors of Lunatics had a pension of £350 after seven years' service. That case was very remarkable, because the Comptroller and Auditor General had reported that the gentlemen in question was not entitled to compensation at all. Nevertheless, the money was given all the same. The Registrar of the Court of Bankruptcy retired on a pension of £666 after six years' service. The payment of that money, also, was an outrage upon the public. He had dipped into the book, and had taken the cases at random from the Appendix. He did not search for them; but he had opened page after page of the book at random, and he thought he had given sufficient cases to show the necessity for a revision of the whole of the pension system. It might be contended that the pension system was absolutely necessary for the maintenance of the efficiency of the Public Service; but other nations, quite as clever and as prosperous as we were, did not think so. The United States paid no pension to the President, or to the Cabinet, or to any person in Civil employ.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. MATTHEWS): No.
  MR. JENNINGSsaid, yes. Probably the right hon. Gentleman knew more about the United States than he did; but he ventured to inform the right hon. Gentleman that he was strictly accurate in his statement, and that there was no pension system in the United States, as the right hon. Gentleman would find out if he would institute such an inquiry into the matter as he (Mr. Jennings) had done. No doubt, large amounts of money had been paid of late years in the shape of pensions—an amount of money exceeding our own Pension List; but it was only for services rendered during the Civil War. [Mr. MUNDELLA: Hear, hear!] He was quite aware of the pensions spontaneously given to the soldiers, or their wives and children, who suffered in the Civil War; but that could have no sort of application to the point now before the House. There was no pension system whatever in the United States; but the people of that country had come to the conclusion that the wives and children of those who had lost their lives in maintaining the integrity of the country deserved some sort of reward. The United States, moreover, were in the singular position of having a Revenue much greater than they knew what to do with, and, therefore, they had decided that those who fought in the Civil War should have pensions for themselves, and for their wives and children when they were dead. That was the only instance of pensions being paid in the United States. And from the President down to the humblest Civil servant, no man received a pension of one penny. No one could suppose that the people of this country would go on much longer paying extraordinary high salaries accompanied by pensions. What he demanded was that we should either pay lower salaries with pensions, or the present rate of salaries without pensions. It had been suggested, and he thought it was a very reasonable suggestion, that 10 per cent should be deducted from all salaries, in order to form a pension fund, and that the Government should add 10 per cent to that. He believed that something of that sort would have to be done. He did not suppose that anyone, either in the House or out of it, could believe that in these days, when everything was being turned topsy-turvy, the people of this country
  208
  would be content to pay twice or thrice the fair market value of labour, and in the end be required to support in idleness the innumerable horde of Tite Barnacles who now infest the State. He begged to second the Amendment.
  Amendment proposed,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "in the opinion of this House, steps should be forthwith taken to give effect to the Report of the Select Committee on Perpetual Pensions; and that, considering the large and increasing annual charge upon the Country for general pensions and non-effective services, it is desirable to adopt measures for the thorough revision of the entire pension system,"—(Mr. Brad-laugh,)
  —instead thereof.
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  MR. C. HALLsaid, he did not propose to follow his hon. Friend in the interesting speech he had just delivered. He wished rather to refer to the first matter brought forward by the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Bradlaugh) in moving his Resolution—namely, the annual payment by the Commissioners of the Treasury to the Duchy of Cornwall. There seemed to be some doubt and misapprehension on the part of the hon. Member for Northampton; but the matter was an exceedingly simple one, and it had been most clearly explained to the Select Committee by Sir Reginald Welby in his evidence. His (Mr. C. Hall's) only apology for addressing the House upon the matter now, was the desire he felt to correct a doubt which appeared to prevail in the mind of the hon. Member for Northampton; as a matter of fact the payment in question was not a pension at all. The facts were as follows: By an Act of Parliament, or, rather, under a Charter of Edward III., there were granted to the first Duke of Corn wall certain tin duties, post groats, and white rent. By the Charter they were made payable to the Duke of Corn wall, and it was expressly stated that they were never to be severed from, but were to be part and parcel of the possessions of the Duchy of Cornwall. In the first year of the reign of Her Majesty it was decided to abolish the tin duties, owing to the fact that tin was no longer converted into coin, and one of the first acts

  209
  of Her Majesty's Government was to decide that those ditties should be abolished and a payment made in lieu thereof. The Lords Commissioners of the Treasury were empowered to ascertain the average annual value of those duties during the last 10 years, after deducting the expenses of collection, and on that being ascertained the Commissioners were to pay out of the Consolidated Fund to Her Majesty—or whoever was then in possession of the Duchy of Cornwall—the average annual amount so ascertained, year by year. That was the way in which the matter stood then, and the amount was arrived at after careful consideration by the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury for the time being. The amount then fixed had been correctly stated by the hon. Member for Northampton, and was ascertained to be on the post groats a sum of £620 per annum. The Lords Commissioners then issued a Treasury Minute stating that his late Majesty William IV. had announced his intention of not pressing for payment of this £620.
  MR. BRADLAUGHsaid, the words were that His Majesty expressed his intention of abolishing post groats, tin duties, and white rent front the 5th of April, 1841. It further stated that His Majesty was pleased to confirm that intention; and therefore that the Lords' Commissioners were of opinion that it was no longer necessary to provide for this sum of £620 beyond the 5th of April, and that the compensation would be terminated after this date.
  MR. C. HALLsaid, he was quite aware of that, and was just going to read the Minute. The hon. Member, however, had saved him the trouble; but it had nothing to do with the argument. Any lawyer would hold that the Sovereign had no right whatever to surrender those duties beyond the time she was entitled to receive them herself. She could not surrender duties which belonged to any succeeding Duke of Cornwall, and directly there was a Duke of Cornwall—that was to say on the birth of His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, the surrender would cease to have effect. It was expressly enacted that Her Majesty should have no more power to surrender the money payable by the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury in lieu of the duties than she had to sur-
  210
  render the duties themselves. The fifth section of the Act, which the hon. Member seemed to have overlooked, expressly enacted that.
  MR. BRADLAUGHasked, if the hon, and learned Gentleman would read the section of the Act which abolished the duties altogether?
  MR. C. HALLsaid, he would do so if the hon. Member desired; but it really had nothing to do with the question. Although the duties were abolished the Act went on to say that a payment was to be made instead of duties, and Her Majesty had no more power to surrender that payment than she had to surrender the duties before the Act passed. That disposed of the legal part of the question. He now came to the other part, on which the hon. Member for Northampton based his complaint. As a matter of fact, the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury, knowing the intention of William IV., and the expressed intention of Her Majesty, issued a Minute, which was in fact the fons et origo mali of the complaint of the hon. Member. That Minute stated that in future the sum of £620 would not be required to be paid. But shortly before the Prince of Wales was born, the officers of the Duchy pointed out to the Commissioners that Her Majesty had no power to surrender the rights of a future Duke of Cornwall. The Lords Commissioners of the Treasury, no doubt being well advised in the matter, came to the same conclusion, and upon the birth of the Duke of Cornwall directed the payment to be continued. He ventured to say that no other conclusion was possible.
  MR. BRADLAUGHsaid, that not only was there no evidence of that; but Sir Reginald Welby had stated in his evidence that there was no Minute of any kind after the year 1841.
  MR. C. HALLsaid, the hon. Member was again a little premature. He was just going to state that there was no Minute to that effect; but there was a correspondence to that effect, of which evidence was given before the Select Committee. [Mr. BRADIAUGIT: No.] If the hon. Member would exhibit a little more patience, he would find that he was stating the facts quite correctly. He wished, however, to point out an inaccuracy of the hon. Member. The hon. Member had stated that King William IV. announced his intention of

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  not pressing for this payment, because it was only £10 a-year. There was no evidence whatever to support that. The lease for that sum was given to a gentleman who had been a distinguished officer in the Duchy, and at the expiration of the lease, king William would become entitled to the £620 a-year in the same way as His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales was now, and the sum had been paid ever since. He believed he had dealt with the matter before the House. The sole complaint of the hon. Member for Northampton was that the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury, when they received a communication from the Council of the Duchy, and determined that they must pay, having no alternative but to do so, forgot to issue a Minute recording the fact. This was no new matter. The hon. Member had called the attention of the Government of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Lothian (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) when it was in power, to the matter; he had brought it before the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Henry H. Fowler), who conferred on the subject with the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury. He ventured to say that the subject had been most carefully sifted by the present and late Government, and the result was as had been stated. The payment had been made for over 40 years without dispute or opposition; but there was one fact which came out in evidence, and it was that when the Government for the time being considered the question of the allowance to be made to His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales on his marriage, computations were made in which this amount of £620 a-year was taken into account as being part of the revenues of the Duchy, so that the country had not been the loser of one penny in this respect. He had thought it necessary to make these observations in order that the circumstances should be understood by the House. The hon. Member had, he ventured to say with all possible respect, discovered a mare's nest; and he regretted that he was so 10th to admit the fact after the conclusive evidence given before the Select Committee.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. W. H. SMITH) (Strand, Westminster): I may, perhaps, follow the hon. and learned Gentleman, who has disposed of the two most important charges made in the speech of the hon. Member for Northampton. But before I proceed to say anything on the question, let me at once admit that this is by no means a Party question. I have, therefore, no reason to complain of hon. Members on either side of the House, who endeavour to lessen the public burdens and to cure any defects which may have grown up in the past in the public administration. Both sides of the House and we ourselves on these Benches will cordially welcome any assistance which may tend to do justice to the public at large as well as to public servants. The hon. Member, in speaking of the subject of pensions, laid down the proposition that every Civil servant should make provision for himself. He was bound to admit that this principle was sound, and should be generally applied if possible. The justification for pensions can only be found in the public advantage and necessity. The question we have to consider is whether those who have accepted office and come into the enjoyment of pensions should be deprived of them. I apprehend that no one would desire that faith should be broken to anyone who is entitled as the result of past service to pensions or superannuations, or any payment out of the public funds. I agree that justice should be done without regard to Party partiality or interest. The hon. Member directed special attention to certain pensions paid out of the Consolidated Fund. It is not for me to defend these pensions. They have been established by Parliament, and must be presumed, therefore, to have been established on the ground of public policy. I can imagine that many pensioners have rendered great service in the past, and have arrived at high office and distinction by reason of their ability and devotion to the Public Service. I can imagine that these gentle-men, having been withdrawn from the ordinary occupations of life, have not bad the opportunity of increasing their private fortune or providing for the vicissitudes of affairs. I state this because I have had occasion to consider whether it was fair or right that certain applications should be entertained; and I have come to the conclusion that probably none are of greater consideration

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  to the State than the men who have devoted themselves through a long life to the Public Service, having thereby deprived themselves of the opportunity of making a fortune adequate to their positions in life. The hon. Member is aware that a declaration is required from all public servants who accept pensions that they need such assistance to enable them to live in private life. The hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Jennings) made a serious indictment against the action of our forefathers. We are not here to defend that action, but we are here to maintain public faith, and with a qualification that due regard should be had to the just claims of the recipients of pensions, I can have no objection to the Motion. My hon. Friend, in the course of his interesting speech, spoke of persons who have no earthly claim to pensions; of incompetent men who have been pensioned, of persons pensioned simply because places were wanted for newcomers, who were intolerably incompetent. I have probably as great a knowledge of what is called the organization of the public offices as any man in this House. I have had the experience of 20 or 30 years. I have some experience, also, of business in private life, and I have found cases in which employers have felt themselves bound to make some provision for men who, after having served them faithfully for 10, 15, or 20 years, or perhaps longer, have become gradually less capable and less competent for the work required of them; and under these circumstances, if there were no positive fault, their employers have felt it to their interest and advantage not to leave them absolutely without means. I am riot urging anything which appears contrary to the public interest, nor do I desire to incur any charge which might be avoided with due regard to the public interest. How would you have the public served? Would you have them served by faithful servants who know that they have a certainty or by men who know that they may be used for a given time and then cast aside? I am aware from my own experience that one of the great reasons which induces competent men to enter the service of the State is the knowledge that they cannot be thrown aside, that they will make a career, and that not even the caprice of a superior officer can have the effect of determining that
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  career unless some grave fault is committed. Undoubtedly that security has some great disadvantages. It has the disadvantage of a superannuation charge and of the comparative independence which an officer may have with regard to those under whom he serves; but it has great advantages, inasmuch as it gives the officer himself a motive for giving all his energies and devoting himself entirely to the service of the State, because he knows that he will be cared for in the long run. Another argument by which pensions can be justified is that we take young men into the public service just at the age when they would otherwise be able by entering into some business or profession to make a position in life for themselves. The Government are fully prepared to go with the hon. Member for Northampton in a desire to effect economy and to examine into the system under which these pensions and superannuations are given. I am prepared to go as far as we can with the hon. Member, but do not let us take a step which would deprive the Public Service of the best servants. Do not let us sacrifice efficiency for the sake of a temporary economy. My hon. Friend behind me made the very important statement that there were no pensions in the United States Civil Service; I believe that statement to be entirely accurate, but if there is one subject which more than any other attracts attention in the United States, it is that very condition of the Civil Service. Until recently, at all events, a Civil servant in the United States was liable to dismissal on a change in the Presidency. Well, I cannot think that the Public Service gains by that system, and I believe it has been admitted by some of the best men in the United States that a Civil Service founded on something like our own system would be a great advantage to their country, and would leave the Civil Service out of the area of public politics. I have also to remind the House again of one fact in connection with the present serious charges for superannuations. It is that this subject has been under the consideration of the House of Commons repeatedly for the last 30 or 40 years. In 1857 an Act was passed which abolished the contributions made by public servants themselves to the Superannuation Fund, on the ground that the abolition was a

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  public advantage. The Resolution on which that Act was founded was carried in opposition to the Government of the day. [Mr. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: Lord
  Naas's Resolution.] The House of Commons at that time had the whole subject under consideration. I am not, however, by any means unwilling that the House of Commons should again review the conditions under which these allowances are made. I ask the House to assist the Government in a matter which is not a Party question at all, for I have no doubt that right hon. Gentlemen opposite are as anxious as I am myself that there should be economy and above all that there should be efficiency in the Public Service. I have, therefore, Sir, to suggest to the hen. Member for Northampton that in lieu of the words on the Paper he should move:—
  "That in the opinion of this House steps should be forthwith taken to determine hereditary pensions and allowances with due regard to any just claims of the respective recipients and to economy in the public expenditure; and that, considering the large and increasing annual charge upon the country for general pensions and non-effective services, it is desirable to adopt measures for the thorough revision of the entire pension system."
  If the hon. Gentleman will adopt these words the Government will cordially accept them, and we will endeavour, as far as in us lies, to give effect to them.
  MR. BRADLAUGHsaid, he gladly assented to the proposed change, and he did so the more readily because the words suggested by the right hon. Gentleman were precisely the same as he had himself placed on the Order Book of the House when he first moved in the matter. He would ask the indulgence of the House to explain one statement of the Attorney General for the Duchy (Mr. C. Hall), whom he was afraid he had too often interrupted. There was no Correspondence whatever which showed that the Treasury had considered and decided on the continuance of the £630 14 s. 2d. There was a protest by the Duchy, and nothing more. In the examination of Sir Reginald Welby before the Select Committee, Question 420, the Chairman asked—
  "You assumed from that, in your former answer, that there was a subsequent decision of the Treasury, which might not be recorded upon the Minute Book, that the payment ought to be continued?"
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  Sir Reginald Welby answered—
  "I have got no evidence to put before the Committee in confirmation of such an opinion. It is difficult for me to suppose that the payment would have been continued without some instruction. At the same time, I wish the Committee particularly to understand that I have got no evidence whatever to offer in support of this opinion."
  This clearly showed the accuracy of the statement he had made to the House.
  MR. W. E. GLADSTONE: I am somewhat unwilling to interpose, but the question is one of great importance, and there are a few words which I think it is necessary for me to say about it in consequence of a portion of the speech of the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Jennings), although with regard to the general tenour of that speech I thought it was a valuable addition to this debate. I am extremely glad that the Government have taken a prudent course in accepting the substance of this Motion, and I agree in thinking that the modification which the right hon. Gentleman has made in the terms of the Motion is in the nature of an improvement. I feel that the Government in accepting such a Motion have undertaken very considerable responsibility, for there is no question of promising to give consideration in the sense in which naturally and necessarily such promises are often made. It is quite evident, considering the vastness of the subject and the extent and divergence of its branches, the Government will have to consider, first, how far provision has already been made in the Commission already sitting as to some portion of the subject; and, secondly, what course should be taken to promote a practical handling to promote a careful examination of other branches of the question. Undoubtedly I for one, and the Mover and Seconder of the Motion also, will expect that some practical course should be adopted. The question is perhaps a wider one than most Members of the House are aware of. While the attention is attracted by a great mass of figures which express the burden of the country in connection with the necessarily very large and extended Civil Service, there are many branches of the subject which require distinct and separate examination. I may now criticize that portion of the speech of the hon. Member for Stockport in which he found

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  it necessary to refer in some detail to the delicate and difficult questions relating to the administration of the annual grant of £1,200 a-year at the disposal of the First Lord of the Treasury. In the first place let me say, having had the administration of it for 11 years, and having known something of its administration by others, I can venture to assure the hon. Member that he is under an entire misapprehension in supposing that the grant, so far as I know, has ever been distributed with reference to political considerations. I venture to state that with very great confidence. Undoubtedly a case did happen many years ago—nearly 50 years ago—on which grave criticism might be made from that point of view; but it is entirely out of date, and I will not revive it by mentioning names, though it is obvious that the reception that event met with became the best security against any similiar abuse. The hon. Member also seemed to imagine that poverty was the main qualification for the receipt of these pensions. That, I think, is not the case. The terms are laid down with great care in an Act of Parliament of 1837. As I read the Act, and as it has always been read, distinction is the necessary element, and poverty, if it intervened at all, is a secondary element. It is an element which will not dispense with the element of distinction. There are pensions upon the Civil List of the Queen which are available for poverty, but that is not the case here. The £1,200 at the disposal of the First Lord of the Treasury must be distributed on the ground of distinguished service, though no doubt it would not be entirely decent to give or to accept such a grant in cases where a large income was enjoyed. I will now mention one or two cases to which the hon. Member referred, and for which I myself am responsible. I will only say with regard to these cases, and with regard to the Civil List generally, having been responsible for a long time for two of the most difficult and the nicest branches of the pension system—namely, the Civil List, pensions for distinguished merit, and pensions for distinguished service, that nothing would give me greater pleasure than to appear before a Committee and give an account of every single act I have performed in this respect. I was not surprised at the
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  observations of the hon. Member, and I make no complaint at all with regard to them. They were not conceived any more than is any Party speech in a Party spirit; they were observations perfectly fair for the hon. Member to make; but at the same time I cannot accept their justice. The hon. Member commented adversely on a pension of £250 granted when I was Prime Minister to Prince Louis Lucien Bonaparte. I do not think poor mortals ought to be proud of anything they do, but if I were proud of any pension I ever gave it would be of that one, because it was a pension in every point of view most eminently excellent and requisite. It so happens that it was made the subject of pointed comment in this House at the time. I made a lengthened statement in answer, and I do not think I ever had the pleasure and satisfaction of sitting down after making a statement amid more universal cheering. Prince Lucien Bonaparte is a person who has rendered enormous service to literature at his own expense when he was a comparatively opulent man. But the ruin of the French Empire in 1870 entirely altered the position of Prince Lucien and wholly cut off his literary pursuits. He was not responsible for the French Empire or its ruin, but the circumstances made it desirable—and it was no dishonour to him—that he should receive an honourable notice of this kind. There was this additional reason for the pension. One of the rules—a very good one—which are generally observed in the distribution of this £1,200 is not to give to the popular branch of literature. The popular branch of literature pays itself; but the services of Prince Lucien Bonaparte, in connection with which he incurred a large expenditure, were in the department of philology, an extremely difficult subject, but one very necessary to be explored. At the same time it is one which addresses itself to a very competent but extremely narrow public; indeed any book published hardly ever pays its expenses. Prince Lucien was a naturalized subject of the Crown, and in every point of view he was one of the fittest, if not the fittest, recipient of this grant. The hon. Member also referred to a pension of £100 a-year to Mr. Mongredien. I cannot recollect if that pension was granted by me or not; but at least it was not a very

  219
  large one. The hon. Gentleman also dwelt upon a case in which I was responsible for granting a pension of £500 a-year—I admit a very large sum under this grant—to the widow of Lord Stratford de Redcliffe. I am glad hero to be able to illustrate what I have said to the effect that these grants were not made with reference to political predilections. This is seen by the fact that Prince Lucien Bonaparte voted against the Liberal candidate in the borough of Chelsea, where he has a house, while the distinguished nobleman, Lord Stratford de Redcliffe, was a well-known Conservative, who sat for between 30 and 40 years on the other side of this House, or of the House of Lords. Whether a pension of £500 could properly be given to the widow of Lord Stratford de Redcliffe is, I think, a matter which may well attract the notice, or even the animadversion, of the hon. Member, and I should be happy to lay fully before a Committee the considerations which influenced me in it. Lord Stratford de Redcliffe, while he lived, enjoyed an income from a diplomatic pension and there was no case for making any application on his account. But when he died that pension expired. He had never been a wealthy man. All his life he had devoted himself to the Public Service, and the services which he rendered in Constantinople were undoubtedly of the highest order. I admit that there may be differences of opinion as to these services—that is to say, as to the policy on which his acts were founded, and as to the justice of the sanguine expectations which he entertained in common with Lord Palmerston and some other able men as to the capacity of the Turkish Empire for what is sometimes called regeneration. Although I myself have never been a sanguine believer in the regeneration, there is no doubt whatever that many things were done in the time of Lord Stratford de Redcliffe, when he was Ambassador in Turkey, which were of the nature of great and substantial reforms. If the hon. Member wishes to know the height to which Lord Stratford ascended as a diplomatist, and the place he occupied in the estimation of the great majority of people at that period, let him consult the history of Mr. Kinglake, and there he will find the great and eminent services rendered by. Lord Stratford at
  220
  Constantinople set out with a splendour I cannot rival. Lord Stratford, as I have said, was not a wealthy man, and I believe it is a well-known fact—there is no disgrace in it—that his private means and economies disappeared in consequence of the repudiation by the Turkish Empire of its debts. Believing in the Turk, and in Turkish regeneration, he had given that strongest of all evidence of his belief when he invested in their funds—and unquestionably it became a matter for consideration whether, so far as the public were concerned, Lady Stratford was to remain without provision. I believe that all the Members whom I address would, in the circumstances in which I then stood, have done just as I did with respect to the Motion before the House. I will not dilate upon the reasons which lead me to support it. They are very strong indeed. I have pointed to the fact that I do not think it possible that it can be treated as a mere abstract Motion. I consider it a Motion intended and likely to lead to practical results, and I thank the Government for having accepted it in that sense. And the evident intention of the Government is to give effect to the views of the mover of the Amendment, which was so ably seconded by the hon. Member opposite, and to place this matter upon a footing which shall be above Party considerations. In these circumstances I trust that in the few hours which this debate has occupied, a fair amount of public business has been transacted.
  MR. BRADLAUGHasked leave to withdraw his original Amendment in order to bring it up in an amended form.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Amendment proposed,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "in the opinion of this House, steps should be forthwith taken to determine the hereditary pensions and allowances, with due regard to the just claims of the respective recipients, and to economy in the public service, and that, considering the large and increasing annual charge upon the country for general pensions and non-effective services, it is desirable to adopt measures for the thorough revision of the entire pension system;"—(Mr. Bradlaugh,)
  Question proposed "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  SIR MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEYsaid, as Chairman of the Civil Service Commission, and as one greatly interested in the reform of the system of pensions in the Civil Service, he desired to say, in behalf of the Committee, that the action of the Government in accepting the Motion of the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Bradlaugh) had materially tended to assist them in their labours. He was glad that the system of pensions was to be made the subject of inquiry. The hon. Member for Northampton had quoted some evidence given before the Committee of which he (Sir Matthew White Ridley) was Chairman, to the effect that, whatever might be thought of the pension system, it was high time that it was inquired into, not only from the point of view of the expense to the country, but also from the point of view that it did not conduce to the extent intended to the efficiency of the Public Service. He was not entitled on that occasion to express any particular opinions which he might entertain; but he might express his belief that there was not one of his Colleagues on the Commission who did not feel the importance of the inquiry on which they were engaged, and who did not expect, before many weeks had elapsed, the Committee would be able to present their Report to the House. The reform suggested in the course of the debate would be, of course, of material assistance to the Committee, who had already taken evidence on the subject. Evidence had been taken since the Report had been issued; but he pointed out that the more the subject was gone into the more difficult it appeared to present a scheme which would have a chance of lasting for several years; the great difficulty being that so many years must elapse before the scheme to be proposed could come into operation. He, therefore, asked for the indulgence of the House if the Committee were not able to present their Report as quickly as many would desire. He rejoiced that the limited Report they had been able to present had received what he conceived to be substantial approval, and trusted that before much more time had elapsed the Committee would be able to present a successful scheme to the House.
  MR. A. E. GATHORNE-HARDYsaid, he rose to
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  protest against the remarks made by the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Jennings) with regard to a very distinguished gentleman—Sir J. B. Maule—whose pension of £500 the hon. Member had adverted to. Sir J. B. Maule had, for a great number of years, been a distinguished Member of the Party opposite; he had served on the Commission which inquired into the Jamaica outrages; he had served as an unpaid member of the Municipal Commission for four years, and, to his personal knowlege, declined the high position of Chief Justice of India, because he preferred to carry on his professional practice. Sir J. B. Maule had been likewise selected at a salary of £3,000 a-year to discharge the office of Public Prosecutor. The operation of that office had not been satisfactory; but he ventured to say that whatever failure there might have been it could not be laid on the shoulders of this gentleman. It had been thought desirable, in the interest of the Public Service, that the appointment should lapse, or rather be transferred to the Solicitor to the Treasury, who was made Director of Public Prosecutions. For the loss of his office, Sir J. B. Maule had received the very small pension of £500 per annum. As a political opponent of this gentleman, he felt bound to make these remarks in reply to the statement of the hon. Member for Stockport, and he regretted that some personal matters had been introduced into the discussion which had, in some degree, obscured the main question on which he thought there was no difference of opinion in that House.
  Question put, and negatived.
  Words added.
  Resolved, That, in the opinion of this House, steps should be forthwith taken to determine the hereditary pensions and allowances, with due regard to the just claims of the respective recipients and to economy in the public service, and that, considering the large and increasing annual charge upon the Country for general pensions and non-effective services, it is desirable to adopt measures for the thorough revision of the entire pension system.

  THE ROYAL MILITARY ACADEMY, WOOLWICH.—OBSERVATIONS.
  SIR HENRY ROSCOEsaid, it would be in the recollection of the House that on the 15th of February, in answer to his hon. Friend the Member for South Salford (Mr.

  223
  Howorth), the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War (Mr. E. Stanhope) stated the preponderance of marks in the Examinations at Woolwich was given for subjects which were of the most practical value to the majority of officers, and which were able to be least easily crammed. In this examination it was clear that the marks attached to scientific subjects were low, out of all proportion to their importance; for while no less than 11,000 marks might be obtained by candidates for languages alone, only 2,000 marks could be obtained for those subjects which went under the wide title of experimental science, the practical importance of which, with regard to the Army, was admitted by the War Office themselves. For on page 13 of the Regulations it will be seen that in the course which was compulsory on those who had entered the Academy, Science stood next to Mathematics, while it stood above Modern Languages. It was, therefore, clear that the War Department itself attached importance to the teaching of Science, although in the entrance examinations for Woolwich its value was practically ignored. So much, then, for the statement that the War Office in these examinations laid stress upon those subjects which were of practical importance to the majority of officers. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War had gone on to say, in reply to the Question of his hon. Friend, that those subjects least easily crammed were included in the Examinations. That was an important statement, because the subject of Experimental Science was not easy or liable to be crammed. The result of former examinations showed that Science was offered less frequently than other subjects by successful candidates—that meant that the candidates did not find it pay to bring in Science and that it could not be easily crammed. Another important matter was the influence which the new Code of Regulations had on the great public schools of the country, from which a large number of candidates came. He said that in those schools, having regard to the disproportion of marks as between Science and languages, Science teaching would fail and gradually disappear because it would not pay. It seemed to him that, under the present system, young men
  224
  might be chosen who had not the slightest aptitude for the scientific work which at the present day was absolutely necessary in this the chief scientific arm of the Service. A young man might enter Woolwich now with purely linguistic acquirements; at any rate, a young man might pass who had those acquirements in addition to mathematical training; and he maintained that by the system at present in force it was impossible for the authorities who examined the candidates to choose those young men who showed a capacity for scientific training. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War had also said that this question had been considered by a strong Committee. But was it strong in an educational or a military sense? He could not believe that a strong educational Committee could have framed the present rules, because they were full of faults. First, they led to the rejection of candidates best fitted for the work that had to be done. Then they offered, too, a high premium for modern languages, and thus ran the risk that young men would prefer to go abroad in order to acquire languages rather than stay at home and pass through the regular curriculum of our great public schools. Thirdly, the regulations were liable to act fatally on the general tendency of what it was now most desirable to encourage—scientific training in our schools. He trusted they might hear that the Secretary of State for War, with the frankness that distinguished him in his statements, would undertake that these regulations should be remodelled, so as to give Science its proper position in these preliminary examinations.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. E. STANHOPE)said, he had listened to the statement of the hon. Member with all the interest which attached to his high authority on the subject. He could assure the hon. Gentleman that he would pay the greatest possible attention to the views which had been urged. He explained that the regulations alloting a number of marks to particular subjects on examination for the Royal Military College were made in 1884. At that time there had been a very careful investigation, and the number of marks awarded for Science was reduced. Representations were made to the Se-

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  cretary of State for War at that time by various scientific authorities, and the result was that the number of marks allotted to Science was raised. Practically, that system was established by a general consensus of opinion, was recommended by upwards of 50 head-masters, and considered by the Civil Service Commissioners and other high authorities. That system had been tried in the Royal Military College since 1884, and it was curious that, although the hon. Member appeared to complain of the regulations, as far as any experience seemed to show, the War Office had only heard that the regulations with regard to the Royal Military College had worked exceedingly well since that date. There had been an investigation by a Committee, presided over by Lord Morley, and it recommended that the original intention should be carried out, and that the system of the Royal Military Academy should be assimilated to that in the Royal Military College. It was not, however, a matter thoroughly adapted for being brought before the House. He would be glad to meet the hon. Gentleman and others who might be interested in the subject in order to hear and discuss what considerations should be urged in order to induce him to modify the regulations and see what alterations should be made.
  SIR LYON PLAYFAIRsaid, he thought that the right hon. Gentleman had met the case very fairly. The question was one of great public importance. Woolwich had given more impulse to the study of science in the public schools in the country than any other motive power. When the scheme of 1884 was brought forward for Sandhurst, it was modified owing to representations made in the House. But what had been the result? The result had been exceedingly disastrous to scientific education. Before 1884, 8 per cent of the candidates at Sandhurst took science subjects. Since then only 2 per cent had done so. In the collegiate education at Woolwich, Experimental Science had a greater position than modern languages, but, according to the system which they were now bringing forward, a lad might enter Woolwich as a candidate for a scientific service without scientific knowledge. The linguistic capacity of a man was a perfectly different thing from his scientific capacity; and though he approved
  226
  of high marks for French and German, yet he thought they should take care that they did not, by their entrance examination, admit men who gave no evidence, by previous training, of scientific capacity. They were about to bring young men into a scientific institution without sifting them to see whether they had scientific knowledge or a scientific capacity. They might get 11,000 marks through languages, and it would only be possible for them to get 2,000 marks by experimental science. Therefore, all the schools of the country would go back to the old mode of preparing lads in languages, and would discontinue preparing them in sciences. He asked that the growing love of Science, which was important for the interests of this country, should not be extinguished. They had a scheme brought before them which would certainly prevent the colleges which were not giving so much attention to Experimental Science from going on with that work, because it would not pay. By the conference to which the Secretary of State for War had invited them, in order more fully to discuss that matter, he hoped to be able to convince the right hon. Gentleman, and to induce him to consent to a small change. They only wanted him to raise the 2,000 marks for science to 3,000 marks, and put it on the same footing as languages, French, German, and Latin, and they would then be content.
  SIR HENRY TYLERsaid, there were many schools now engaged in preparing candidates for Woolwich, the Royal Military College at Sandhurst, and other Institutions; and it was, of course, the desire of the masters as well as of the boys in such schools to prepare for those subjects which commanded the most marks. He was, therefore, correct in saying that the education given was really in a great measure dependent on the number of marks allotted to each subject at the examinations. That being so, it was very desirable not only that the marks should be properly regulated as between the different subjects, including, of course, modern languages and science, but that there should be a system thoroughly considered and organized, and recognized as a durable system; because it had been a great evil in the past that constant changes had been

  227
  made, sometimes backwards and forwards, and the systems were not of a more permanent character. He had considerable experience, and took a great interest in the matter, having himself been at Woolwich, having passed five sons through the Royal Military Academy, and hoping to pass a sixth; and he felt that it was a great evil that changes were being constantly made in the system of examinations. Every boy intended for a Woolwich military career had to spend four or five years in preparatory studies, at great labour and expense, and he thought it a great hardship that a boy should find that the number of marks allotted to the different subjects had been altogether altered at the end of his preparatory course, and that, consequently, a great part of his time and money had been more or less wasted. He was, therefore, glad that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War had invited the scientific Gentlemen opposite to confer with him, and he hoped that an arrangement would be made of a more durable as well as of a more satisfactory character than those which had obtained in the past.
  Resolved, That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Committee of Supply.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

  PARLIAMENT—PALACE OF WESTMINSTER —SEATS IN THIS HOUSE.
  RESOLUTION.
  MR. H. GARDNER,, in rising to move a Resolution,
  "That a Member serving on a Select Committee shall be entitled, without being present at Prayers, on any day on which such Committee shall sit, to retain a seat in the House by affixing there to a card, distinguished by colour and marked 'Committee,' which shall be delivered to such Member on his application;"
  said, he thought he should best consult the wishes of hon. Members and the despatch of the Business of the House if he spoke as concisely and briefly as possible. The object of the change which the Amendment implied was, as hon. Members would see, the further convenience and comfort of the Members serving on Select Committees or Private Bill Committees. The change he proposed would oven do more than
  228
  promote the comfort of hon. Gentlemen serving on Committees—it would materially affect and advance the pecuniary interests of the public. If the House of Commons was constructed in the same way as most of the Houses of Legislature of the world were constructed there would be no necessity for the Amendment which stood in his name, because there would be reserved in the House a seat or locality for each Member. But the wisdom of their predecessors had decreed that on the floor of the House there should not be space for more than 100 out of the 670 Members, and what the wisdom of their predecessors had decreed the matured common sense of the present generation saw no way of getting out of. And so it came about that any Member who was desirous of obtaining a place in the House from which to speak or listen to a debate was obliged to come down one, two, or three hours before the House met—possibly at great personal inconvenience—place his hat on a seat, be present at Prayers, and affix a card on the back of the seat. If a Member serving on a Private Bill Committee wished to obtain a seat in the House on any day on which that Committee was sitting, it would be necessary in future that the Committee should adjourn in order that he might be present at Prayers; This sometimes happened under the old régime; but under the new Rule, providing that Committees were not to rise when the House met, it would be always necessary, supposing the Members wished to retain seats in the House, for the Committee to adjourn, and for the Members to come down to the House. The proceedings of the Committee would thereby be stopped, and, as a consequence, the suitors would be put to very largo expense. His Amendment provided that a Member of a Committee, when he came down to the House, should be able to obtain a different card from that at present in use, affix it to his seat, and thus ensure for himself a seat. It would not be necessary for him to be present at Prayers. Hon. Members would see he suggested that the cards to be used by such Members should be of a different colour to those ordinarily used. He hoped no one would suspect for a moment that he made this suggestion because he imagined that any hon. Member of the

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  House would so far let his personal convenience, or his desire to hear the eloquence of the House, overcome his natural respect for the Rules of the House as to make use of the provision he (Mr. H. Gardner) proposed. It was, however, desirable there should not be any ground for a shadow of suspicion, and that was the reason why the use of cards of a different colour should be used. He stated at the outset that one of the objects of the Amendment was the pecuniary advantage of tire public at large. As the House was aware, suitors before Committees often employed very eminent counsel, and it was a peculiarity of learned gentlemen that when they were eminent they were also very expensive. To suitors before Committees, therefore, time was essentially money. A friend of his, formerly a Member of the House, told him that he calculated that the adjournment of a Committee for an hour had cost the suitors £100. It must be obvious to the House that the adjournments necessary, unless some such Amendment as he proposed were adopted, would cost suitors a considerable sum of money. Under these circumstances, and having very great trust from the answer of the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. H. Smith) the other day that the Government would accept it, he begged to move the Amendment which stood in his name.
  Amendment proposed,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "a Member serving on a Select Committee shall be entitled, without being present at Prayers, on any day on which such Committee shall sit, to retain a seat in the House by affixing thereto a card, distinguished by colour and marked 'Committee,' which shall be delivered to such Member on his application."—(Mr. Herbert Gardner.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. W. H. SMITH)said, he had endeavoured, so far as he could, to gather the general feeling of hon. Members of the House upon the question which had been raised by the hon. Gentleman (Mr. H. Gardner), and he had arrived at the conclusion that the Members generally desired that some such provision as that which the hon. Member had suggested should be
  230
  adopted. Therefore, without at all going into the question, even at the length the hon. Gentleman had, he suggested it would be desirable that the House should adopt an Order of this character upon the understanding that the cards should be delivered to the Members of the Committees who desired to have them by the Committee clerks. It was obviously necessary that the cards should be in the custody of persons on whom absolute reliance could be placed.
  MR. SINCLAIRsaid, the words of the Motion were "a Member serving on a Select Committee." Would those words include Members serving on what were generally called Grand Committees?
  MR. W. H. SMITHsaid, he was hardly able to say whether that would be the case or not. It must be remembered, however, that the hon. Gentlemen serving on Grand Committees would probably be 80 in number; that they would be able to come in from the Committee Room, take their seats, and go away then. Such Members were not required to be in as constant attendance as the Members of Select Committees or Private Bill Committees. A Member might leave without exposing himself, or anyone else, to inconvenience—at any rate, without causing any expense to the parties before them. Perhaps it would be well they should have some experience of the working of the Rule as applied to Members serving on Select Committees or Private Bill Committees before applying it to Members of the Grand Committees.
  Question put, and negatived.
  Words added.
  Resolved, That a Member serving on a Select Committee shall be entitled, without being present at Prayers, on any day on which such Committee shall sit, to retain a seat in the House by affixing thereto a card, distinguished by colour and marked "Committee," which shall be delivered to such Member on his application.
  SUPPLY—Committee upon Monday next.

  WESTMINSTER ABBEY BILL.— [BILL 165.]
  (Mr. William Henry Smith, Mr. Secretary Matthews, Mr. Jackson.)
  SECOND READING. [ADJOURNED DEBATE.]
  Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [22nd March], "That the Bill be now read a second time,"
  Question again proposed.
  Debate resumed.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. W. H. SMITH)said, that, as his remarks on a former occasion were necessarily short, owing to the hour of the night when the debate was initiated, he would now explain a little more fully what the Bill sought to effect. The Bill had been prepared in order to insure the safety of the Abbey, which would, he was sure, be regarded by all hon. Members, whether belonging to the Church of England or not, as a great public monument which they were bound to preserve. It was at the present moment in a very grave condition. It was estimated when arrangements were made by the Dean and Chapter of Westminster in 1868 that £20,000 would then be sufficient for the work of repairing the building. Recently, however, it had been found that the repair of the fabric would now necessitate an expenditure of nearly £60,000; and the funds in the hands of the Dean and Chapter were wholly inadequate to meet that charge. The Dean and Chapter had been for a considerable period in entire ignorance of the serious condition of the Abbey, owing to the fact that the dilapidations were in portions of the building which were inaccessible. In 1886 an advance of £10,000 from the funds of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners was authorized by a Bill passed by the late Government, and that advance was made a charge on the funds of Westminster Abbey, if they were capable of discharging it. It was therefore sought in the present Bill to relieve the Abbey funds from the payment of that amount. It would be impossible for the Dean and Chapter to meet such a charge as £66,000, even if it was spread over a long period of years. The funds of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, which had suffered very much from the agricultural depression, did not enable them to make the necessary grant. It was, therefore, proposed by the Bill that the Dean and Chapter should be at liberty to surrender their estates to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, who should have authority to grant to them an annual income equal to that which in 1868 it was estimated those estates would yield. There had been great depreciation in the value of
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  property in some parts of the kingdom, notably in the land belonging to the Dean and Chapter. The proposal, therefore, of the Bill was to give the Dean and Chapter that same amount of security in regard to their income which it was intended they should receive in 1868. It was not proposed to relieve them of the responsibility which attached to them out of that income to maintain the fabric, but it was intended that the funds which would be provided by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners should be recovered from the Dean and Chapter, as they were able to pay the amount. Under this Bill considerable economies would be effected in the establishment of the Abbey, which would secure a sufficient income to meet the large charges which would be involved in repaying the capital sum required for the restoration of the Abbey. The Bill provided that on the next avoidance of a canonry other than those which attached to the parishes of St. Margaret's and St. John's, Westminster, the appointment should be suspended so long as it might be necessary to do so, and also authorized the Dean and Chapter to submit now Statutes which would effect considerable economy in the establishment of the Abbey, and would provide sufficent income to meet the charges on the capital sum advanced. The sole object of this Bill was to make provision for the maintenance of the Abbey; there was no intention to carry out any structural alterations, or to effect any architectural changes in the building, but merely to maintatn and to restore the fabric to the condition in which it had been handed down by our predecessors. He hoped that this short explanation would be considered satisfactory and that the House would agree to pass the second reading of the Bill, which he believed to be essential for the preservation of one of those national monuments to which was attached much that was interesting in the history of England, and which Englishmen would regret to see falling into decay. He desired to repeat that no charge whatever would be thrown on the national finances by this Bill, and that it dealt entirely with ecclesiastical funds.
  MR. J. E. ELLISsaid, he desired to say that the interesting statement the First Lord of the Treasury had given them,

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  showed that the hon. Member for Swansea Town (Mr. Dillwyn) was amply justified in the action he took the other evening in protesting against such a Bill being read a second time without a word of explanation from the Treasury Bench. He was very glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman's definition of the word "restoration," and he assured the right hon. Gentleman that no one was more ready than hon. Members on the Opposition side of the House to support a measure for the preservation of a great historical monument like that of Westminster Abbey.
  MR. BLANEsaid, that by the Bill they were asked to apportion funds between the maintenance of the fabric and the stipends of the Dean and Chapter and other ecclesiastics. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. H. Smith) would say what connection there was between the restoration of Westminster Abbey and the stipends in question. It appeared to him that this Bill was introduced for the purpose of enabling certain parties to have a claim to compensation at the time of the Disestablishment of the Church. They now found that ecclesiastical situations were made for temporary purposes, but that, finally, they became permanent. The office bearers became holdfasts, and would assuredly claim compensation. This was only a species of public plunder. [Cries of "Oh, oh!"] Of course it was, because the money for these repairs would be provided out of the funds of the nation at large. He should like to see the fabric of Westminster Abbey maintained. The Abbey had been diverted from its original purpose, but still he supposed it was a national monument. If the Government could show him there was anything between a national monument of this kind and the distribution of funds to Dean and Chapters, and so forth, officials already highly paid—and amongst whom a large amount was distributed only last year—he should raise no objection to the Bill. It seemed to him most extraordinary that those men should be tacked on to the Bill. The payment of stipends could have nothing to do with masonry. The right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury had said that no taxation would be used for the purposes of the
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  Bill; but last year between £60,000 and £70,000, raised by taxation, was spent upon Westminster Abbey. If that money had been properly used there would have been no need for the expenditure now proposed. If the authorities chose to turn the Abbey into a theatre and then turn it back again into a church, that was their business; but why the Dean and Chapter and other officials should have stipends provided for them by this Bill he could not understand. He regretted he should have had to interfere in this matter. He only did so because he saw that the proposition contained in the Bill was not honest. If the Government wanted to distribute money amongst already overpaid Churchmen, who had large churches and no flocks worth speaking of, it would be well they should bring in a separate Bill for the purpose.
  SIR JOHN R. MOWBRAYsaid, he joined in the regret the hon. Gentleman the Member for South Armagh (Mr. Blanc) had just expressed, that he should have interfered in the discussion, because it was quite clear the hon. Member had not read the Bill. The fact was, that the Bill proposed to deal with the property of the Dean and Chapter of Westminster Abbey, and it created for the first time a fabric fund—[Cries of "No, no!"] He (Sir John B. Mowbray) spoke with knowledge of the Bill. At present, the first charge on the revenues was the salary of the Dean and of minor officers, and, so far from giving them any increased claim on the revenues, it gave them a decreased claim. It made the maintenance of the fabric the first charge. If the hon. Gentleman had read the Bill, he could not have made the remarks he had addressed to the House.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read a second time, and committed for Monday next.

  STIPENDIARY MAGISTRATES (PENSIONS) BILL.— [BILL 92.]
  (Sir Richard Temple, Mr. Godson, Mr. Hastings
  STIPENDIARY MAGISTRATES (PENSIONS) BILL.— [BILL 92.]

    SECOND READING.
    Order for Second Reading read.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Sir Richard Temple.)
    MR. BIGGAR, in moving the adjournment of the debate, said the hon. Baronet could never have expected to bring the Bill in to-day, and, perhaps, it was as well that they should have the Easter Recess in which to consider the provisions of the Bill.
    Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members not being present,
    House adjourned at half past Seven o'clock till Monday next.