HC Deb 13 June 1887 vol 315 cc1846-54

Order for Second Reading read.

MR. J. E. ELLIS (Nottingham, Rushcliffe)

I need hardly say it is not my intention to detain the House at this hour—2.10 a.m.—with a speech in support of this Bill. It was introduced some years ago by the hon. Member for West Nottingham (Mr. Broadhurst), and discussions were taken upon it in 1884–5. Last year it was placed in my hands, when my hon. Friend became Under Secretary to the Home Department, and it passed its second reading without any Division. I hope I may appeal to the Government not to throw any obstacle in the way of the second reading now. It is a simple and a small measure, having for its object the giving facilities for the acquisition of sites for places of public worship. It contains 11 clauses and provisions by which persons belonging to any religious denomination can obtain compulsorily by a certain procedure set forth land for the purpose of building a church or chapel. There are many districts where such persons are placed at great disadvantage by reason of landowners refusing to sell for the purpose, and this Bill is to place all denominations in possession of an advantage now possessed by one particular demomination—the Church of England. I am sure there will be a general disposition that power possessed by one denomination should apply to all. Strictly adhering to my promise not to make a speech at this late hour I now move the second reading.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Mr. J. E. Ellis.)

MR. J. G. TALBOT (Oxford University)

I do not propose to follow the example of the hon. Member for the Rushcliffe Division of Nottingham (Mr. J. E. Ellis) and not discuss the principle of this Bill, and so, I think, I have sufficient justification for the course I propose to take to move the adjournment of the debate. There is a simple reason and a conclusive one; the Bill explained in a very moderate speech by the hon. Member, who affirms that its principle is a moderate one, really does go a very great way in the direction of confiscation. It proposes to take property, whether the owner wishes it or not, for what is called public purposes, though I am not quite sure that it can be maintained it is for a public purpose. But this is not a question we can argue now, and at this late hour I believe I shall be consulting the convenience of the House by moving the adjournment of the debate.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. J. G. Talbot.)

MR. BROADHURST (Nottingham, W.)

I do not know who is in charge of the Party opposite. I do not see the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House (Mr. W. H. Smith); but whoever is in command of the army, or exercises control in the ranks opposite, I sincerely hope that he will use his influence to induce the hon. Gentleman to withdraw the Motion just made. The subject this Bill deals with is a perfectly simple one and is, I think, well understood by every Member in the House, and it has frequently been debated in the House. It is but a simple act of justice to confer on Nonconformists the same privileges as are now possessed by the Church in regard to acquiring space for places of worship. I sincerely hope that the Government, having appropriated all the time of the House for purposes of their own, will not crush out this little attempt at legislation, but will allow the Opposition this crumb of comfort of having obtained the second reading of a measure that excites the greatest interest throughout the country among persons of both Parties, for this is by no means a political Bill. It is simply to confer on Nonconformists a position of equality with that possessed by Churchmen. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Matthews) appears to look as though he has taken the position of Leader opposite. I appeal to him to induce his supporter to withdraw this unreasonable Motion, and allow us to take a decision on the Bill. If the Government do not think proper to do that, I sincerely hope my hon. Friend the Member for the Rushcliffe Division (Mr. J. E. Ellis) will take a Division on the adjournment, and we will count that as a Second Reading Division.

COLONEL NOLAN (Galway, N.)

I will only remind the House that I originally brought in a Bill of this kind for Ireland, and I may say the whole of Ireland wants it just as much as do the Nonconformists of England. I will not detain the House now; but I do think it is shockingly unfair to adopt this means of defeating a Bill of this kind. We have an opportunity of doing a little good after passing whole nights in unprofitable discussion of the Crimes Bill. Here we have a pennyworth of wholesome bread to the "intolerable deal of sack" we have been spilling so freely, and we are met with a motion for adjournment! I will only say the Bill is very much wanted in Ireland, and I hope the Government will take some step to check the misdirected zeal of their followers.

MR. CONYBEARE (Cornwall, Camborne)

I do not think that anyone on the other side can complain of taking the Bill at this hour, considering that every available moment of what may be called reasonable time is employed by the Government for another purpose. We are perfectly justified in availing ourselves of such a chance as this when we get it. If you are afraid of this Bill then say so fairly and boldly; do not endeavour to get rid of it by a side wind. I agree with the hon. Member for West Nottingham (Mr. Broadhurst) if we are to have a Division then that Division shall be considered as a Second Reading Division. I should not have risen to say one word in support of the measure if it had not been for a remark of the hon. Member for the University of Oxford (Mr. J. G. Talbot), who said he doubts whether this Bill has to do with public purposes. Well, it is usually considered that the religion of the country might well fall under the definition of public purposes, and I fail to see why the religion of the greater part of the population is less a public object than that of one particular denomination. We are met by the cry of confiscation. I will only——

MR. SPEAKER

Order, order! The Motion before the House is the Motion for the Adjournment of the Debate.

MR. CONYBEARE

Very well, Sir. I quite understand it is impossible, under the circumstances, to meet the objections the hon. Gentleman has urged against the Bill. It only shows how exceedingly inconvenient—I will even say how unjust—such a Motion is, especially when the hon. Gentleman made a speech against the Bill before he concluded with his Motion for Adjournment.

MR. A. M'ARTHUR (Leicester)

I hope the hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxford University (Mr. J. G. Talbot) will not press his Motion. Some of us have been waiting here eight or ten hours for this Bill to come on, because we understood it was to come on, there being no strong objection to it, nor could there be, for it is a most reasonable Bill. It is brief, the clauses are few, and once the second reading is passed we should dispose of it quickly. I hope it will not be postponed in this indirect manner. If there is to be a Division at all, let it be upon the Bill itself.

MR. CAINE (Barrow-in-Furness)

I join in the appeal to hon. Members opposite to allow us to take a Division on the second reading. I think the fact that the Order is not blocked, that there is no Notice of objection put down, will justify us in pressing the desire in which I heartily join to take a Division on this stage of the Bill.

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR (Liverpool, Scotland)

I will not stand between the House and a Division for more than a second or two, but I must express my regret that no Gentleman from the Treasury Bench seems to be in a position to state what is the attitude of the Government towards this Bill. I do not say that as desiring to find fault; but I think this is a question on which we have a right to ask the opinion of the Government. I know that many of my constituents who do not belong to the same persuasion as myself are deeply interested, and it does not raise any Party issues. As to the time of the morning, I do not think there is much force in that objection, for—and I do not refer to that now in any controversial spirit—we know that all the time of the House is taken by the Government for Business they consider necessary; and, unless a Bill of this kind comes forward at an hour such as this, there is no opportunity of discussing it at all. But, late as it is, we have a full House. I have rarely seen so large an attendance at half-past 2 in the morning, and from appearances there does not seem the smallest reason for supposing that either Party is taken at a disadvantage; certainly the Party to which my hon. Friend belongs has no advantage in numbers over his opponent. But, from personal experience, I think hon. Members opposite are much more inclined to take an impartial view of questions at this hour than they are earlier in the Sitting. On one or two occasions when we have had another Bill before the House, we have found hon. Gentlemen opposite willing to desert their own Friends and support a Bill on the Liberal programme. I hope, when the Division is called, hon. Gentlemen on the other side will be true to the assurances they have given, and assist us to remove a small remnant of religious bigotry that does not commend itself to the mind of any reasonable, tolerant man.

MR. O. V. MORGAN (Battersea)

I wish to join in the appeal that the Motion may be withdrawn. This is a Bill in which many of my constituents are very much interested, and I happen to know one instance where a congregation found it absolutely impossible to get the land to build a place of worship. They made application for land, but the owner held different religious opinions, and absolutely refused to sell for the purpose. I know that a feeling also exists in favour of the Bill in the neighbouring parish of Clapham, the hon. Member for which constituency showed a readiness to second the Motion for Adjournment. At half-past 11 to-night the hon. Member for Wandsworth asked me to pair with him, and I agreed, making an exception in favour of this Bill, and it would be hard and unjust to many of us who have waited for the same purpose if the Bill were shelved by adjournment.

MR. BYRON REED (Bradford, E.)

I rise simply for the purpose of appealing to the hon. Member for Oxford University (Mr. J. G. Talbot) and to Her Majesty's Government not to insist on the Motion for Adjournment, but to allow us to decide on the second reading. I think it would be an advantage to the House if the hon. Gentleman opposite in charge of the Bill were allowed to go on with the discussion to-night, and for us to devote a brief space to the discussion of its principle. I, personally, have no wish to take any action that would lead to delaying the Bill, but I know on this side there is a strong feeling of objection to the measure, and some of us are prepared to debate it on its merits if the opportunity is given either to-night or on some other occasion. I appeal now to the hon. Gentleman to withdraw the Motion for Adjournment.

Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes 160; Noes 130: Majority 30. [2.30 A.M.]

AYES.
Ainslie, W. G. Bonsor, H. C. O.
Ambrose, W. Borthwick, Sir A.
Amherst, W. A. T. Bridgeman, Col. hon. F. C.
Anstruther, Colonel R. H. L.
Bristowe, T. L.
Ashmead-Bartlett, E. Brodrick, hon. W. St. J. F.
Baden-Powell, G. S.
Baggallay, E. Burghley, Lord
Bailey, Sir J. R. Campbell, J. A.
Balfour, G. W. Charrington, S.
Bass, H. Clarke, Sir E. G.
Bates, Sir E. Commerell, Adml. Sir J. E.
Baumann, A. A.
Beach, W. W. B. Compton, F.
Beadel, W. J. Cooke, C. W. R.
Bentinck, Lord H. C. Corry, Sir J. P.
Bentinck, W. G. C. Cotton, Capt. E. T. D.
Beresford, Lord C. W. De la Poer Cranborne, Viscount
Cross, H. S.
Bethell, Commander G. R. Davenport, H. T.
Davenport, W. B.
Bigwood, J. De Cobain, E. S. W.
Birkbeck, Sir E. De Lisle, E. J. L. M. P.
Blundell, Col. H. B. H. De Worms, Baron H.
Bond, G. H. Dimsdale, Baron R.
Dorington, Sir J. E. Lechmere, Sir E. A. H.
Douglas, A. Akers- Leighton, S.
Dyke, right hon. Sir W. H. Lewisham, right hon. Viscount
Eaton, H. W. Long, W. H.
Edwards-Moss, T. C. Low, M.
Egerton, hon. A. de T. Lowther, hon. W.
Elcho, Lord Macartney, W. G. E.
Elton, C. I. Macdonald, right hon. J. H. A.
Feilden, Lieut.-Gen. R. T.
Maclure, J. W.
Forgusson, right hon. Sir J. M'Calmont, Captain J.
March, Earl of
Fielden, T. Marriott, right hon. W. T.
Finch, G. H.
Fisher, W. H. Matthews, rt. hon. H.
Fitzgerald, R. U. P. Maxwell, Sir H. E.
Fletcher, Sir H. Mayne, Admiral R. C.
Folkestone, right hon. Viscount Morgan, hon. F.
Mount, W. G.
Fowler, Sir R. N. Mulholland, H. L.
Fraser, General C. C. Murdoch, C. T.
Gathorne-Hardy, hon. A. E. Newark, Viscount
Noble, W.
Gent-Davis, R. Northcote, hon. H. S.
Gibson, J. G. Norton, R.
Gilliat, J. S. Peily, Sir L.
Godson, A. F. Penton, Captain F. T.
Goldsworthy, Major-General W. T. Plunket, right hon. D. R.
Gorst, Sir J. E. Price, Captain G. E.
Grimston, Viscount Raikes, rt. hon. H. C.
Gunter, Colonel R. Rankin, J.
Hall, C. Reed, H. B.
Halsey, T. F. Ridley, Sir M. W.
Hambro, Col. C. J. T. Ritchie, rt. hon. C. T.
Hamilton, Lord E. Ross, A. H.
Hamilton, Col. C. E. Round, J.
Hanbury, R. W. Royden, T. B.
Hankey, F. A. Russell, Sir G.
Hardcastle, E. Saunderson, Col. E. J.
Hardcastle, F. Sidebottom, T. H.
Herbert, hon. S. Sidebottom, W.
Hermon-Hodge, R. T. Smith, rt. hon. W. H.
Hervey, Lord F. Smith, A.
Hill, right hon. Lord A. W. Stanley, E. J.
Sykes, C.
Hill, Colonel E. S. Temple, Sir R.
Hoare, S. Tomlinson, W. E. M.
Holmes, rt. hon. H. Townsend, F.
Houldsworth, W. H. Trotter, H. J.
Hozier, J. H. C. Walrond, Col. W. H.
Hubbard, E. Webster, Sir R. E.
Hulse, E. H. Weymouth, Viscount
Hunt, F. S. White, J. B.
Isaacson, F. W. Whitley, E.
Jackson, W. L. Whitmore, C. A.
Jarvis, A. W. Wilson, Sir S.
Kenyon - Slaney, Col. W. Wood, N.
Wortley, C. B. Stuart-
Kerans, F. H. Wroughton, P.
King-Harman, right hon. Colonel E. R. Young, C. E. B.
Knowles, L, TELLERS,
Kynoch, G. Powell, F. S.
Lambert, C. Talbot, J. G.
NOES.
Abraham, W. (Lime- rick, W.) Baird, J. G. A.
Banes, Major G. E.
Acland, A. H. D. Barry, A. H. Smith-
Agg-Gardner, J. T. Bartley, G. C. T,
Allison, R. A. Biggar, J. G.
Blane, A. Harrington, E.
Bright, W. L. Hayden, L. P.
Burt, T. Hayne, C. Seale-
Caine, W. S. Healy, M.
Caldwell, J. Healy, T. M.
Campbell, Sir A. Holden, I.
Campbell, H. Hooper, J.
Chance, P. A. Hughes, Colonel E.
Channing, F. A. Hunter, W. A.
Clancy, J. J. Jacoby, J. A.
Cobb, H. P. James, C. H.
Coghill, D. H. Johnston, W.
Coleridge, hon. B. Joicey, J.
Commins, A. Kelly, J. R.
Connolly, L. Kenny, C. S.
Conway, M. Kenny, M. J.
Conybeare, C. A. V. Kenyon, hon. G. T.
Craven, J. Lawson, Sir W.
Crilly, D. Lawson, H. L. W.
Dillon, J. Lea, T.
Dillwyn, L. L. Lees, E.
Ellis, T. E. Lewis, T. P.
Esmonde, Sir T. H. G. Lowther, J. W.
Evelyn, W. J. Mac Neill, J. G. S.
Evershed, S. M'Arthur, A.
Eyre, Colonel H. M'Arthur, W. A.
Fenwick, C. M'Cartan, M.
Finucane, J. M'Donald, P.
Foster, Sir B. W. M'Lagan, P.
Fox, Dr. J. F. Maitland, W. F.
Gedge, S. Mason, S.
Gill, T. P. Milvain, T.
Grey, Sir E. Montagu, S.
Grotrian, F. B. Morgan, O. V.
Neville, R. Sexton, T.
Nolan, Colonel J. P. Shaw, T.
Nolan, J. Sheehan, J. D.
O'Brien, J. F. X. Sheil, E.
O'Brien, P. Stack, J.
O'Brien, P. J. Stanhope, hon. P. J.
O'Connor, J. (Kerry) Stuart, J.
O'Connor, J. (Tippry.) Sullivan, D.
O'Connor, T. P. Sullivan, T. D.
O'Doherty, J. E. Swetenham, E
O'Hanlon, T. Tanner, C. K.
O'Hea, P. Tapling, T. K.
O'Kelly, J. Thomas, A.
Paulton, J. M. Tollemache, H. J.
Pickersgill, E. H. Tuite, J.
Pinkerton, J. Verdin, R.
Powell, W. R. H. Wallace, R.
Power, P. J. Watt, H.
Power, R. Williams, A. J.
Price, T. P. Williamson, J.
Priestley, B. Wilson, H. J.
Pyne, J. D. Wolmer, Viscount
Quinn, T. Wright, H. S.
Rondel, S. Yeo, F. A.
Roberts, J.
Roberts, J. B. TELLERS.
Rowlands, J. Broadhurst, H.
Rowlands, W. B. Ellis, J. E.
Russell, T. W.

Debate adjourned till Monday next.

House adjourned at a quarter before Three o'clock.