Commons Sitting of 13 September 1886

MINUTES.
SUPPLY—considered in Committee—CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES; CLASS II.—SALARIES AND EXPENSES OF CIVIL DEPARTMENTS; Votes 25 to 35, inclusive; 37, 40, and 42; CLASS III.—LAW AND JUSTICE, Vote 21.
Resolutions [September 10] reported.
PUBLIC BILL—Committee—Report—Third Reading—Submarine Telegraph Act (1885) Amendment [45], and passed.

QUESTIONS.

  LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)— COURT OF BANKRUPTCY—MR. C. H. JAMES, LATE OFFICIAL ASSIGNEE.
  MR. P. MCDONALD)asked Mr. Attorney General for Ireland, Does it appear by the books of Mr. C. H. James, late Official Assignee of the Court of Bankruptcy in Ireland, that he received as per centages in the year 1868 the sum of £3,104, and that he only returned in the Parliamentary Return of that year £2,320; that in the following year he received £3,011, and only returned £2,616, thereby suppressing in the two years £1,189; does it further appear that these suppressions continued undetected down to the date of his dismissal; does it appear that many of the sums and undivided balances of long standing found due by him by the Treasury Remembrancer were suppressed by the said late Official Assignee from the annual Parliamentary Returns; and, were these Returns, as required by the statute, certified to Parliament as being correct by the Chief Registrar of the Court; and, if so, what steps the Government mean to take to render these officers amenable for their conduct?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES): There was no book kept in the office of Mr. James containing an account of the percentages received by him in the years 1868 and 1869. I am, however, informed that after Mr. James left Ireland his son brought from his father's house, and handed to the principal assistant in the office, a book in which such an account was entered. This, with all the other books in the office, was handed over to the Treasury investigators; but it was not returned by them, and cannot now be found. I am, therefore, unable to answer the first part of the Question. It appears that many of the sums and undivided balances of long standing found by the Treasury Remembrancer to be due by Mr. James were suppressed by him from his annual Parliamentary Returns. These Returns were certified to Parliament by the Chief Registrar; but I am informed that this officer did not conceive that by such certificate he was vouching the accuracy of the Returns, but merely
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  that they were the Returns required to be made by the Statute. This was the view taken long before the present Chief Registrar came into office in 1872, and I am of opinion it is in accordance with the terms of the Act.

  LABOURERS (IRELAND) ACT—SLIGO UNION—INQUIRY UNDER THE ACT.
  MR. P. MCDONALDasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether the elected Guardians of Cliffony North, Cliffony South, Lisadell West, and of other divisions of the Sligo Union, received notice to attend the inquiry held on the 30th of August at Sligo Workhouse by the Local Government Inspector, Captain Sampson, into the necessity of erecting labourers' cottages in certain divisions of that union; whether it is mandatory on the Inspector to send such notice 14 days before to all parties interested—namely, the occupiers, the labourers who have made application, and to the sanitary authorities of the union, as well as to the landlords and ex-officio Guardians; and, whether, if such due notice has not been given, the Government will cause another inquiry to be held, so as to give the labourers an opportunity of making good their case, in order that the cottages which may be approved of shall be erected before the ensuing winter?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH), in reply, said, he was informed that the course of procedure indicated by the hon. Member was not that required by the Act. It was the practice of the Local Government Board to give notice of a pending inquiry, and the Board of Guardians were, at the same time, informed by letter that if they were prepared to offer any evidence in support of their case they might do so. It was not necessary for the Inspector conducting the inquiry to give any further notice. On the occasion referred to the usual notices were given; and he understood a small number of the Guardians attended, and stated that the proposed cottages could not be erected. The Local Government Board proposed to consult their legal adviser as to what should be done in the case, and the Guardians will be directed in the matter.

  THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE—RETURNS OF COST AND RECEIPTS FOR THE SEVERAL DIVISIONS.
  MR. TOMLINSONasked the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether Her Majesty's Government would object to make an amended Return, pursuant to s. 38 of "The Supreme Court of Judicature Act, 1875" (38 & 39 Vict. c. 77), so as to show separately, in respect to each Division of the High Court of Justice, the actual cost of the administration of Justice in such Division and the amount of the stamps and fees received from suitors and applicants in the same Division?
  THE SECRETARY (Mr. JACKSON): I am afraid I cannot adopt this suggestion. There would be great difficulty in giving separate accounts of the receipts and expenditure in the several Divisions of the High Court. Many of the administrative departments of the Court perform services for all the Divisions; and it would be almost impossible to accurately separate in each ease the receipts and expenditure properly applicable to each Division.
  MR. TOMLINSONasked if any approximation could be arrived at?
  MR. JACKSONsaid, he would consider the matter.

  PURCHASE OF LAND (IRELAND) ACT, 1855, SEC. 23—PURCHASERS OF GLEBE LANDS.
  MR. M. J. KENNYasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If he can state how many applications have been made by purchasers of glebe lands in Ireland pursuant of the 23rd section of the Purchase of Land (Ireland) Act, 1885, to the Irish Land Commission, and if he can state the principal sum upon which the reduced rate of interest therein specified is now payable; if he can state the amount of outstanding purchase-money and interest now in arrears on account of glebe lands; if he is aware that sub-section 3 of section 23 of the above Act, which necessitates the payment in full of all interest on simple mortgage debts and all instalments due upon debts secured by an "instalment mortgage" before an order for the re-auction of the rate of interest on the amount remaining due can be made, renders it impossible for the greater
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  portion of glebe purchasers to avail themselves of the advantages provided in the Act; if the Church surplus money, voted by Parliament for the relief of ordinary tenants under "The Arrears of Rent (Ireland) Act, 1882," was derived in part from the payments of glebe purchasers who have themselves received no corresponding relief; and, whether Her Majesty's Government is prepared to give effect to the claims of the glebe purchasers by cancelling all sums outstanding and over six months in arrears, and thus allowing them to partake of the benefit of reduced annual payments provided by Parliament?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH): Seven hundred and forty applications have been received from instalment mortgagors for the advantages provided by the 23rd section; but in 85 of these cases the necessary conditions as to payment of arrears had not been complied with. In 1,132 cases the interest on "simple mortgages" has been reduced from 4 to 3⅛ per cent. In 362 cases of this kind the reduction has been postponed on account of the non-payment of arrears as required by the Act. The principal sum on which the reduced rate of interest is now payable is £300,213. The total arrear on March 31 last was £40,963. It is a mistake to suppose that, as alleged in the Question, the conditions laid down by the Act render it impossible for the greater portion of glebe purchasers to avail themselves of its advantages. The records of the Land Commission show that 597 out of 2,834, or about one in five of the glebe purchasers, are so affected. The sum borrowed under the Arrears Act was secured on the Church revenue, which is only to a small extent derived from payments by purchasers under the Church Act. The proposal to cancel arrears due by the glebe purchasers would not, I think, be fair to those who have paid their instalments; but I have already promised to look into this question after the end of the Session, and I will certainly endeavour to do so.

  MIDLAND GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY (IRELAND)—POOR HARVESTMEN.
  MR. J. P. X. O'BRIENasked the Secretary to the Board of Trade, If he will use whatever influence or authority he possesses with the Mid

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  land Great Western Railway (Ireland) Company to induce them to make better provision for the poor harvestmen carried on their line, and for traffic accommodation for fairs, markets, &c.?
  THE SECEETAEY (Baron HENRY DE WORMS) (Liverpool, East Toxteth): The form in which the hon. Member has asked his Question seems to show that he is aware that the Board of Trade have no authority to intervene in the conduct and management of the traffic, which is a matter for which the Railway Company is responsible. I have little doubt, however, that a proper representation made to the Company would meet with due attention.

  WAR OFFICE—THE FIRST ARMY CORPS.
  MAJOR GENERAL GOLDSWORTHYasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether the First Army Corps is complete in every particular, and ready for service; if not, whether he will will arrange for its being placed on a proper footing?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. W. H. SMITH): During my short term of Office last year I gave my serious attention to the condition of our two First Army Corps, and I have now before me the Reports of the Departmental Committees which I then appointed to examine into the subject. The Intelligence Department is now engaged in collating these Reports, and in pointing out the deficiencies which exist. I think that with my present knowledge it would be inexpedient to make any definite statement in reply to the hon. and gallant Member's Question.

  LAW AND JUSTICE (ENGLAND AND WALES)—THE MAGISTRATES OF DARTFORD—SEVERE SENTENCES.
  MR. SHIRLEYasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether his attention has been called to another severe sentence awarded by the Dartford magistrates in the case of a cripple named Phillips who, on Saturday September 4th, was awarded a month's hard labour for destroying his clothes; whether he is aware that one of the Dartford magistrates, who is of Her Majesty's counsel, has frequently pro-
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  tested against the severity of his colleagues in dealing with the cases which come before them; and, whether the Government propose to take any steps in the matter?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. MATTHEWS): I have obtained a Report from the Dartford Justices with regard to this case. I am told that the Justices added "hard labour" to the sentence with the intention and belief that the Prison Authorities, acting on the advice of the medical officer, would put the prisoner to such labour only as was compatible with his physical state. I think the medical officer's discretion can well be trusted in such a matter. I am informed by the learned Queen's Counsel referred to that it is not the case that he has frequently protested against the severity of his colleagues, though he has had occasion to differ from them on questions of costs and points of law. The question of reconstituting the Bench rests with the Lord Chancellor; but I am aware of no reason for calling his attention to the matter.

  EXCISE DEPARTMENT—INLAND REVENUE OFFICERS.
  MR. TOMLINSONasked the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether Her Majesty's Government are taking, or contemplate taking, any steps with a view to giving further consideration to the grievances of the Inland Revenue Officers of the Excise Department?
  THE SECRETARY (Mr. JACKSON): The case of the Excise officers has been fully considered by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer and myself. We have personally gone into all the questions raised by the officers, and have come to the deliberate conclusion that the Service has received fair and liberal consideration, and that no substantial ground for complaint exists.

  LABOURERS' (IRELAND) ACT—THE KILMALLOCK GUARDIANS—INQUIRY UNDER THE ACT.
  MR. FINUCANEasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether Mr. Posnett, Local Government Board Arbitrator under the Labourers' Act, held an inquiry in Kilmallock Union on the 3rd of last August;

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  if so, has he sent his draft award yet to the said Union; and, if not, for what reason; and, will he be directed to do so immediately, so as to enable the Kilmallock Guardians to proceed at once with the erection of the labourers' cottages?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH)in reply, said, Mr. Posnett's Report in this case had not yet been received; but attention had been called to the matter.

  LUNACY LAWS—LEGISLATION.
  MR. W. J. CORBETasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, What are the intentions of Government with reference to the amendment of the Lunacy Laws; and, whether the Bill of last Session, which passed the Lords and was read a first time in this House, will be proceeded with next year; and, if so, whether it will be extended to Ireland?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. MATTHEWS): I have nothing to add to the statements made by the Under Secretary of State for the Home Department during the discussion on the Estimates on Friday last—namely, that it was the intention of the Government to proceed with legislation on the subject. It will be a matter for consideration whether this legislation shall extend to Ireland and Scotland.

  RAILWAYS (IRELAND)—PARSONS-TOWN AND PORTUMNA BRIDGE RAILWAY.
  MR. HARRISasked the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether the Parsonstown and Portumna Bridge Railway is now derelict; that everything removable and of value is being taken away, such as timber, cut stone, iron rails, &c.; and, whether the Government Loan Commissioners had charge of it for five years, and at the expiration of that time they removed the five caretakers engaged in its protection, and allowed the station house, sheds, and rails to be made objects of plunder; and, if so, will the Government do anything to protect all that remains of the property, with a view to its future utilisation?
  THE SECRETARY (Mr. JACKSON): The hon. Member's information as to the present state of this
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  unfortunate line is, no doubt, more complete than mine. The Loan Commissioners held it as mortgagees in possession for five years, and during that time preserved it from dilapidation in the hope of obtaining a purchaser; but, in 1883, failing all their attempts at selling it, they withdrew from possession. They do not consider themselves justified in spending any money upon it unless in some reasonable hope of a return. May I suggest that the hon. Member should help us to some arrangement for taking up and working the undertaking.
  MR. HARRIS: Do I understand the hon. Gentleman to say that the railway is to be left there derelict without anybody taking care of it?
  MR. JACKSON:I am afraid, if we can find no purchaser, there is no other means of disposing of it.

  INDIA (NORTH-WEST PROVINCES)—NAYAT ALI KHAN.
  SIR THOMAS ESMONDEasked the Under Secretary of State for India, Whether Nayat Ali Khan, brother of the Nawab of Maler Kotla in the Punjaub, was deprived in the year 1872 by the Indian Government of judicial and police powers within his own Jaghire; whether Nayat Ali Khan was divested of these powers during his minority and without his consent or knowledge; whether that Jaghirdars do exercise judical and police powers within their own Jaghires; and, whether Mr. Kavanagh memorialised the Indian Government and the Secretary of State for India on behalf of Nayat Ali Khan, and upon what grounds were the memorials rejected?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE (Sir JOHN GORST): Prior to 1872, by an old barbarous usage, each descendant of the original Nawab of Kotla exercised semi-independent powers in the jagirs which fell to his lot. The result was, as might be expected, perpetual conflict of authority and continual disputes and hostility between the various members of the family. To put on end to this state of things the Government of India, in 1872, centred all jurisdiction, criminal and civil, in the hands of the Head of the State alone. Nayat Ali Khan, at that time a boy of 12, was liberally provided for, and it was arranged that he should, on coming of age, exercise such police and civil

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  powers as his brother the Nawab might delegate to him. In 1882 Mr. Kavanagh memorialized the Secretary of State, and was advised that his client should address himself to the Government of India. It appeared afterwards that this course had been adopted by Nayat Ali Khan; but his Memorial had been rejected for the reasons of State above-mentioned, which were fully explained to him.

  THE CIVIL SERVICE—THE PLAYFAIR SCHEME.
  SIR GUYER HUNTER(for Mr. PULESTON)asked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether any conclusion has been arrived at with reference to the reconsideration of the Playfair Scheme of the Civil Service; and, if so, whether it can be stated to the House?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Lord RANDOLPH CHURCHILL): The operation of the Playfair Scheme has long been the subject of controversy, and various classes of public servants have, from time to time, found cause to object to its operation, and have enlisted more or less sympathy in the House of Commons with their complaints. The Government are of opinion that the time has arrived when the operation of this Scheme may be usefully and comprehensively inquired into. But they are also of opinion that it may conveniently form part of the general inquiry with reference to the whole of the Civil Service Establishments, which they have decided immediately to initiate. I may, therefore, be permitted to take this opportunity of stating to the House that the Government have determined to appoint a Royal Commission to investigate the Public Departments of the State, more particularly with regard to their clerical establishments. I will lay on the Table of the House this evening a Minute of the Treasury which sets forth at some length the grounds for the initiation of this most important inquiry. Perhaps the House will allow me to quote two paragraphs from the Minute, which will give the House fully and clearly the Reference to the Commission—
  "The Commission will inquire into the number, salaries, hours of labour, superannuation, costs of the staff, and the administration, regulation, and organization of the said offices.
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  They will state whether, in their opinion, the work of the different Offices is efficiently and economically performed, whether it can be simplified, whether the method of procedure can be improved, and whether the system of control is deficient or unnecessarily elaborate. As 10 years have now elapsed since the adoption of the Playfair Commission, the time has come when the working of the Scheme may with advantage be reviewed. The Commission will, therefore, report whether the Scheme has been fairly tried, whether its provisions have met the requirements of the Service and deserve confirmation, and whether any modifications are needed to give complete development. Lastly, they will examine the non-effective charge of the Civil Service, and advise whether the present pension scale and regulations are equitable alike to the State and to its servants."
  I am also in a position to state the names of the Commissioners. They will be Sir Matthew White Ridley (Chairman), Earl Brownlow, Lord Lingen, Lord Rothschild, the Right Hon. G. Sclater-Booth, M.P., the Right Hon. Henry H. Fowler, M.P., Mr. Charles Lewis, M.P., Mr. Arthur O'Connor, M.P., Mr. Peter Rylands, M.P., Sir Edward Guinness, Mr. J. Cleghorn (Director of the North-Eastern Railway), Mr. A. S. Harvey (Secretary to Messrs. Glyn, Mills, and Co.), Mr. A. B. Mitford, C.B. (late Assistant Commissioner of Public Works), and Mr. Walpole (Permanent Assistant Under Secretary at the India Office), who will be Secretary to the Commission.

  ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY—DISTRICT INSPECTOR TILLY.
  MR. COXasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether District Inspector Tilly of the Royal Irish Constabulary, at present stationed in Cavan, has served for 25 years in the rank of District Inspector; whether he has for three years in King's County, and nearly three years in county Cavan, discharged the duties of County Inspector in the absence of the County Inspectors of those counties; whether, in November last, it having come to Mr. Tilly's turn to be promoted to the rank of County Inspector, he received the following certificate, signed by the Inspector General of Constabulary, Deputy Inspector General, and the Commandant of the Royal Irish Constabulary Depôt:—"An officer whose character, private and official, is above reproach;" whether, instead of receiving his promotion, he was in-

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  formed by the Inspector General that he was to be passed over; and, whether the Government will allow him the promotion to which his long and meritorious services and high character entitle him?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH), in reply, said, District Inspector Tilly was an officer of long service and good character, and as temporary County Inspector performed the routine duties of that office. But it was found that at the end of last year after inquiry he laboured under some serious defect of speech which rendered him unable to discharge the duties of a higher and more responsible position. Nothing had been brought to his notice which would show that the decision that had been arrived at could be altered.

  EDUCATION DEPARTMENT—THE LONDON SCHOOL BOARD—SALE OF LAND.
  MR. BUXTONasked the Vice President of the Committee of Council, Whether it is true that the London School Board are about to sell the site in St. George's Row, Pimlico, instead of erecting a school thereon; whether there is within reasonable reach any school at which the fees (including the cost of books) do not exceed two pence per week per child; whether, in consequence of the high fees in the neighbouring schools, many of the children in the district are obliged to attend Board Schools in Chelsea; and, whether he will cause the Board to reconsider their determination?
  THE VICE PRESIDENT (Sir HENRY HOLLAND): I have made inquiry of the London School Board, and learn that it is their present intention, subject to the sanction of the Education Department, to sell the site referred to; but no steps have yet been taken. Permission to sell a large part of it had been granted by the Department in 1881, when it was understood that fees in the neighbouring voluntary schools had been reduced. I am not aware whether they have since been raised, or whether there is a voluntary school within reach at which 2d. only is charged, including school books; but I may inform the hon. Member that resolutions were lately passed by the managers of these voluntary schools as to remitting and lowering fees which ap-
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  peared in The School Guardian of last week, and which remove any grounds of grievance.

  FISHERY PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND)—GREYSTONES HARBOUR.
  MR. W. J. CORBETasked the Secretary to the Treasury, When the Contract for Greystones Harbour was made; what is the amount of the Contract; what is the date by which the works are to be completed; and, what progress has been made, and is it probable they will be finished within the time specified in the Contract?
  THE SECRETARY (Mr. JACKSON)said: The contract for Greystones Pier was made on July 6, 1885; its amount is £9,000, and the date prescribed in it for completion is the 1st of next November. All the concrete blocks required have been made, but the work will not be finished within the specified time as it has become necessary to replace the contractor. We are promised completion on the 1st of May next.

  PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND)— ARKLOW HARBOUR WORKS.
  MR. W. J. CORBETasked the Secretary to the Treasury, What progress is being made with the Arklow Harbour works, which were to be completed by the 1st June, 1885; whether any remonstrance has been received from the Local Committee, complaining of the almost complete stoppage of the works during the Spring and Summer of the present year; and, whether he can give any indication of when they will be finished?
  THE SECRETARY (Mr. JACKSON): It is expected that the South Pier at Arklow will be finished by November 1. Its completion was delayed in consequence of representations from a local committee, which resulted in the suspension of the works pending further inquiry. The works were resumed in July, as there seemed general agreement that the South Pier should be completed at once.

  CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)— RIOTS AT RATHFRILAND, CO. DOWN.
  MR. H. CAMPBELL(for Mr. M'CARTAN)asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieu-

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  tenant of Ireland, Whether his attention has been directed to the series of outrages alleged to have been committed by "the Castlewellan Conservative Flute Band" on its way from Rathfriland to Castlewellan on Saturday the 28th August last; whether the members of the band remained for some time on the public street of Rathfriland, adjacent to the police barrack and in the presence of the police, cheering for "the Skankhill Lewis'," "the Islandmen," "Harland and Haslett," and groaning for "Morley's Murderers;" whether the same party indulged in cursing the Pope and in firing off revolvers at frequent intervals on the public road leading from Rathfriland to Castlewellan; whether complaints have been made that revolver shots had been fired by members of this band at Catholic houses in Letalian and Dromena, and at the Roman Catholic Church of Kilcor; and that several persons on and near the county road had very narrow escapes from the bullets so fired; and, what steps have been taken by the authorities to bring the offenders to justice?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)(who replied) said: I have received Reports in reference to the matters referred to in the Question of the hon. Member which are not in accordance with all the statements contained therein; but as I will probably consider it necessary to direct legal proceedings, I do not think it would be right to discuss the details.

  PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (IRELAND—POLLING PLACES IN THE NORTH MONAGHAN DIVISION.
  MR. P. O'BRIENasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether he is aware that the Parliamentary electors, numbering over 500, of Tullycorbett district, comprising 33 townlands of the North Monaghan Parliamentary Division, are obliged to travel to record their votes in the town of Monaghan, distances of from 8 to 10 miles, without either rail or tramway accommodation; and, whether he will take the necessary steps to cause an. additional polling station to be held at Tullycorbett, where there is a commodious National School which would serve the purpose, and which would be
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  within five miles of the most remote parts of the district?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)(who replied) said, the facts were as stated. As to the last portion of the Question, the late Law Advisers had advised that the Lord Lieutenant had no jurisdiction to add a new polling station by varying the order. He was consulted on the subject, and had concurred in that opinion.

  ARMY (INDIA)—THE TROOPS AT QUETTA.
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLasked the Under Secretary of State for India, Whether there has been, and is, very excessive sickness among the Troops at Quetta; whether, before constructing the Railways to the Quetta District, Her Majesty's Government took steps to satisfy themselves that the climate of the Country at and about Quetta was favourable for the location of European and Native Troops, and with what result; whether, for barracks and offices, large sums have been spent at Quetta, which now proves to be unhealthy; whether there is any reason to suppose that healthy sites may be found; and, what is now proposed to be done?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE (Sir JOHN GORST): Sir, during the 10 years, 1874 to 1883, there was no excessive sickness at Quetta; but in 1884, which was a year of abnormal sickness throughout India, there was. The Returns for 1885 have not yet been received. Her Majesty's Government occupied Quetta and made the railways on political rather than, sanitary grounds. Quetta had already been occupied in the first Afghan War, and no special inquiry into the climate was therefore necessary. Large sums have been spent at Quetta on barracks and offices. In consequence of the abnormal sickness of 1884, the Bombay Sanitary Commissioner was sent to visit Quetta in 1885. This Report is now under the consideration of the Government of India, and until it is received at the India Office, I am unable to answer the further Questions.

  POST OFFICE—TELEGRAPHIC COMMUNICATION WITH AUSTRALIA.
  SIR SAMUEL WILSONasked the Secretary of State for the Colo-

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  nies, Whether, in view of the unsatisfactory state of the existing telegraphic communication between this Country and Australia, the Government will consider the question of an alternative route through Canada, with a cable from Vancouver City, the terminus of the Canadian Pacific Railway, to Australia?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. E. STANHOPE): The subject of a telegraphic line from Vancouver to Australia has been brought under our notice by the Government of the Dominion, and I have promised to give it careful consideration. The expense involved appears, however, to be very great; and until the opinion of the Australasian Colonies upon it has been ascertained Her Majesty's Government will not be in a position to form any judgment as to the scheme.

  ARMY—CHARGES AGAINST THE ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT.
  MAJOR RASCHasked Mr. Attorney General, Whether his attention has been called to a statement by Colonel Hope, in a letter published in The Times of 9th September—
  "That the Attorney General has been deceived and misled by some one presumably in the incriminated Department;"
  and, whether he is able to give any explanation of the matter?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir RICHARD WEBSTER): I must refer the hon. and gallant Member to my letter which appeared in The Times of Friday, the 10th, in reply to that of Colonel Hope of the 9th instant, and I can give no explanation of the matter, except to repeat that there is not the slightest foundation for the statement from Colonel Hope's letter quoted in the Question of the hon. and gallant Member.
  MR. E. ROBERTSONasked the Secretary of State for War the following Question, which stood on the Paper in the name of Captain Selwyn:—Whether his attention has been called to a letter from Colonel Hope, V.O., in The Times of 9th September; and, whether it is a fact, as stated in that letter by Colonel Hope—
  "That he made charges in the statement that he submitted to the Secretary of State for War, and that in some cases he gave names, dates, and full details?"
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. W. H. SMITH):
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  Does the hon. Gentleman ask the Question at the request of the hon. and gallant Member?
  MR. E. ROBERTSON: No, Sir.
  MR. W. H. SMITH: I do not know what the practice of the House is; but I am quite in the hands of the House.
  MR. SPEAKER: It is quite unusual, according to the practice of the House, in the absence and without the sanction of the hon. and gallant Member, to put the Question.

  WAR DEPARTMENT—GUNS—THE ORDNANCE SPECIAL COMMITTEE.
  SIR HENRY TYLERasked the Secretary of State for War, When he will be prepared to state on the authority of the Ordnance Special Committee with Associated Members, the factor of safety as between the calculated bursting strain on the one hand, and the calculated strain with service charges on the other hand, of the guns that burst on board the three of Her Majesty's Ships Active, Thunderer, and Collingwood; and, when he expects to be able to quote the opinion of the same Committee as to whether "jamming" of the shot in the increasing twist of the rifling would not be sufficient to account for each of those failures?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. W. H. SMITH): With reference to the factor of safety in the Active's and the Collingwood's guns, it is stated in the Ordnance Committee's Report of 1883 that the factor of safety between the service pressure and the bursting pressure should be four—that is, that the maximum working pressure should be one-fourth of the bursting pressure, arrived at by a formula in use at that date, and the service charges of these two guns were regulated by the recommendation of the same Committee to give this factor. The factor of safety on the Thunderer's gun has not been gone into by the Ordnance Committee; but, calculated on the same basis as the factor just given, is also four. It is to be noted that the method of calculation referred to by the hon. and gallant Member is now obsolete, and that all recent calculations of strength bring out the relation between the service pressures and the pressure which would strain the gun beyond its limit of elasticity. With reference to the second portion of the hon. and gallant Member's Question, the

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  accident to the Active's gun was referred to a special Committee, who reported that they were clear that the burst did not arise from jamming; and the specially-constituted. Ordnance Committee subsequently concurred in that view. The specially-constituted Ordnance Committee have also assigned causes entirely unconnected with jamming for the accident to the Coiling wood's gun. The case of the Thunderer's gun was not laid before the specially-constituted Ordnance Committee; but it formed the subject of an inquiry conducted by two special Committees, the Reports of which were presented to both Houses of Parliament. Both Committees agreed in attributing the accident to a cause quite distinct from jamming. It should be noted that in the Active's and the Collingwood's guns the forward portion of the bore where the burst occurred was rifled with the uniform twist, and, therefore, the accidents could not be attributable to the jamming of the shots in the increasing twist.

  LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)—THE BARBAVILLA PRISONERS.
  MR. TUITEasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether, during the trials of the prisoners charged with conspiracy to murder at Barbavilla, in the county of Westmeath, on the police being cross-examined as to the facilities afforded the M'Keons, the chief Crown witnesses, to meet and confer, privately or otherwise, before the second information was made by the younger M'Keon, Judge Lawson made use of the following observation:—
  "'To insinuate,' said he, 'that the M'Keons had interviews while in the hands of the police, is to insinuate that the very sources of justice are polluted, and he scouted the insinuation as an impossibility;'"
  whether, since the trials, Constable Fitzgerald, a man of exemplary character in the Constabulary force, has made the following statement, which he offers to affirm upon oath:—
  "On a morning immediately after young M'Keon was brought from Clonmel to witnesses depôt, business brought me at an early hour from another part of the city towards the depôt. I came up to old M'Keon and Head Constable Lynch, who were standing about ten or fifteen yards from the depôt. We spoke to each other, and the conversation turned on the Barbavilla case. Lynch said Pat (meaning M'Keon, then present) was trying to help him with it. He
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  then said he had M'Keon's son there, but could get nothing out of him. Old M'Keon then said 'When I have a talk with him it will be all right,' or, 'Let me have a talk with him and it will be all right.' I asked Lynch if he meant to do so, when he clearly gave me to understand that he did. In fact, old M'Keon said he had come up from Castlepollard expressly for the purpose with him (Lynch). In a very few minutes after this I saw both father and son together in a room in the upper part of the building.
  "MAURICE FITZGERALD, Sergeant;"
  whether it was subsequent to the above interview that the younger M'Keon made his third deposition of the 17th of July, in which he swore to the formation of the conspiracy at the house of the widow Fagan; whether in the deposition of the 17th May he made no allusion to it, and on the 27th June he merely said—
  "I was at the house of the widow Fagan the Friday week before the murder;"
  whether it was upon the holding of this meeting the whole case against the prisoners hinged; whether he is aware that one of the jurors who convicted the prisoners made the following statement, in a letter addressed to the Rev. John Curry, of Collinstown, in the county of Westmeath, which letter has been published in The Freeman's Journal:—
  "I have no hesitation in stating that I would have acquitted the prisoners if it had been proved on their behalf that the M'Keons had an opportunity of communicating with one another while in the hands of the police;"
  whether it was proved at the trials that the M'Keons were men of disreputable character; and, whether, having regard to the above facts, and to the evidence offered by the Rev. John Curry, establishing the innocence of the prisoners, he will cause a sworn inquiry into the means by which the convictions were obtained?
  MR. T. D. SULLIVAN: Arising, Sir, out of that Question, I beg to ask the right hon. Baronet the Chief Secretary for Ireland, If he is aware that after the trials and sentences on the prisoners were carried out, Patrick Cole, one of the principal witnesses for the Crown, made a declaration in the presence of a number of witnesses, stating that the evidence given by him on the trials was false?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)(who replied) said: I have no report of what Mr. Justice Lawson said

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  during the trial; but I am informed that he made some such observation as that quoted when, in reply to a question put by him, Head Constable Lynch stated that the M'Keons had no opportunity of meeting before young M'Keon made a certain statement to the constable in Clonmel. He could hardly, however, have conveyed that they had not at any time had opportunities of communicating, as it was shown that such opportunities existed after a certain period. I have read in a letter of the Rev. John Curry that Sergeant Fitzgerald made the statement referred to; but I have not been able to learn anything more about it, beyond that it is not consistent with other matters reported to me. It was proved at the trial that young M'Keon's character was bad; but nothing disreputable was alleged, as far as I am aware, against the old man. It is the duty of the Lord Lieutenant to consider any application made to him for the remission of punishment, and to inquire into the circumstances on which it is based. This duty he will always be ready to perform; but he has no power to direct any kind of sworn inquiry. In answer to the further Question put by the hon. Member opposite (Mr. T. D. Sullivan), I have only to say that on the first trial the man Cole was not examined at all. He was examined on the second trial, and I believe it is a fact that he subsequently made a statement that there was no truth in his evidence.
  MR. SEXTONasked if the right hon. and learned Gentleman was aware that Sergeant Fitzgerald was in the police force?
  MR. HOLMESreplied, that Sergeant Fitzgerald was in the police force.
  MR. SEXTON: Has Sergeant Fitzgerald himself been asked?
  MR. HOLMES: My recollection is that he was asked; but, although I have communicated with the Constabulary by wire, I have not been able to ascertain whether he has been recently asked or not.

  ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY—THE MEDICAL ADVISER AT CASTLEBAR.
  MR. COX(for Mr. DEASY)asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether the position of Medical Adviser to the Constabulary at Castlebar has been
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  refused to the Dispensary Medical Officer; and, whether he will state the reasons for this departure from custom by the police authorities?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH), in reply, said, he had already answered the Question. He had already explained that the Inspector General sought the most eligible professional man who was capable of performing the duties. In this case it was found desirable to secure the services of someone of more experience than the Dispensary Medical Officer, who had only a few weeks before obtained his diploma.

  PRISONS (IRELAND) ACT, 1877—REFUNDING CERTAIN LEVIES.
  MR. COX(for Mr. DEASY)asked Mr. Attorney General for Ireland, Whether the sums declared by the Court of Queen's Bench in 1882 to have been illegally levied on counties in Ireland under "The Prisons (Ireland) Act, 1877," have yet been refunded?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES), in reply, said, he was not aware of any proceedings in which the Court of Queen's Bench declared that any sums were illegally levied in counties in Ireland under the Prisons (Ireland) Act, 1877.

  IRISH RIFLE CLUBS (BELFAST, &c.) —FIRING PRACTICE.
  MR. SEXTONasked the Secretary of State for War, What is the result of his inquiry into the questions raised in the House concerning rifle clubs in Belfast and other places in Ireland, especially as to the supply of ammunition from such clubs to Her Majesty's Stores, and the permission given to members of such clubs to practice firing at ranges in Military Barracks, under the supervision of Military Sergeants?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. W. H. SMITH): In answer to the hon. Member, I have to say that recommendations from the Lord Lieutenant and from the War Office are necessary in each case before the requisitions are complied with. I have ascertained that in some instances Government ranges have been used, and

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  that non-commissioned officers have assisted in the matches.
  MR. SEXTON: The right hon. Gentleman has not answered my Question. What I wished to elicit was, what determination have the Government come to with regard to the continuance of the system?
  MR. W. H. SMITH: The hon. Member will see that he did not ask that Question; but I will look into the subject.
  MR. SEXTONsaid, he would raise the question on the Vote for the Lord Lieutenant's Household.

  FACTORY ACTS—INSPECTORSHIPS.
  MR. BYRON REEDasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether the number of Her Majesty's Inspectors of Factories is adequate to the duties which these officers are called upon to perform; and, if not, whether the Government will take the necessary steps to provide a sufficient increase in the staff; and, in the event of such increase being found necessary, will the Government appoint, as far as may be possible, working men to the Inspectorships?
  THE SECRETARY or STATE (Mr. MATTHEWS): No official representation has been made by the Factory Department at the Home Office that the number of Factory Inspectors is inadequate to the performance of their duties; and although various Trade Councils have requested that the number should be increased, I do not think the Treasury can be asked to charge the public funds with an increased expenditure in this Department until it is clearly shown by experience that the present staff, if properly distributed, is unable to satisfy the requirements of the Factory Acts in a manner practically sufficient. If an increase is found necessary the Government will fully consider the claims of working men to be appointed Inspectors.

  REGISTRATION OF ELECTORS (IRELAND)—SOUTH TYRONE REVISION COURT.
  MR. P. O'BRIENasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether he is aware, in South Tyrone Revision Court, during its sitting on Thursday last,
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  claims were lodged for a large number of persons whose names were already on the voters' lists; whether it is alleged the said claims were lodged by the representatives of the Orange Unionist party, who admitted, through their solicitor in court, that they claimed for these people because they were Protestants, and therefore assumed that they were political supporters of theirs; whether, on learning that the persons so claimed for were supporters of Mr. William O'Brien at the last and preceding General Elections, the agents above referred to lodged objections to these same people; whether the Revising Barrister condemned the practice when brought under his notice; and, whether the Government will so amend the Registration Act as to prevent such vexatious interference with the rights of the people in future? The hon. Gentleman also asked the right hon. Gentleman the following Question, of which he had given him private Notice:—Whether it is true, as alleged, that during the sitting of the East Tyrone Revision Court, on Thursday last, Dr. Magill, J.P., Mr. Robert King, J.P., and other gentlemen, who might be described as belonging to the landlord class, occupied seats on the Bench; whether, while two bailiffs named Aberneathy and Devlin, were being examined in support of objections lodged by the Orange landlord and Unionist party against a number of farmers and labourers, claimants for the franchise, the Revising Barrister observed that the above-named occupants of the Bench were prompting the witnesses, and forthwith ordered them to leave the Bench; whether he does not consider the presence of landlords or their satellites on the Bench in Revision Courts calculated to intimidate and prevent farmers and labourers from securing the franchise; and will he take care that such people are not allowed to occupy the Bench under such circumstances in future; whether he will consider it his duty to bring the conduct of Mr. Magill and Mr. King in this matter under the notice of the Lord Chancellor, with a view to their removal from the Commission of the Peace?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)(who replied) said: The Government has no means of learning what occurs in a Revision Court beyond what appears in the newspapers. The only

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  thing that I know of the matter is what I read in The Freeman's Journal of Friday last. The only practice which, according to that report, was condemned by the Revising Barrister was the practice of using names without authority. The Question cannot be accurate in suggesting that objections were lodged during the revision, as this would be contrary to law. In answer to the Question of which the hon. Member has given private Notice, I have to say that I am informed that no magistrate sat on the Bench at the Revision Sessions; but that a magistrate called Robert King sat for a time in the Registrar's seat, and on his speaking to a witness the Revising Barrister directed him to leave the Court. Magistrates and landlords have the same rights, neither more nor loss, than other persons in Revision Courts.

  LIGHTHOUSE ILLUMINANTS—EXPERIMENTS AT THE SOUTH FORELAND.
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, Whether the object of the experiments conducted by the Trinity House at the South Foreland was to ascertain whether oil, gas, or electricity is the best illuminant for lighthouses; whether, in these trials, the best form of oil light and the best form of electric light were tried, and whether a trial was refused to the double quadriform, the best form of gas light; whether the reasons given for refusing a trial to the double quadriform gas light are not completely set aside by Professor Barrett's description to the Royal Dublin Society of the light and its performance; whether that description plainly indicates that the advantage of increasing the light to double its power, claimed for the gas system, cannot be obtained by the oil system; and, whether it is expedient that this question should be tested by practical trial?
  THE SECRETARY (Baron HENRY DE WORMS): The object of the recent experiments by the Trinity House at the South Foreland was to ascertain the relative value of the three lighthouse illuminants named. The best adopted forms of lighthouse electric and oil lights were tried; also the best form of gaslight yet adopted as an illuminant by any general lighthouse authority. The Board of Trade are not aware that the double quadriform
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  is the best form of gaslight, and no lighting authority has yet applied to them for sanction to its adoption. The reason for not trying other lights than those experimented with was, as stated in an answer given to the hon. Member by my Predecessor on the 17th of June last, and I am still advised, that the value of the double quadriform gaslight can be calculated from the results already obtained. Professor Barrett stated his opinion that the high temperature within the lantern when double quadriform lights were burning would be fatal to the employment of mineral oil. The Board of Trade are of opinion that no further trials are necessary to demonstrate the possibility of increasing the intensity of the various illuminants to the highest power required by the mariner. Since the experiments were completed, the lighthouse authorities have devised, and the Board of Trade have sanctioned, both gas and oil lights of about equal intensity to the double quadriform gaslight referred to, with a lower temperature inside the lantern.

  ARMS (IRELAND) ACT—HOUSE SEARCH AT BALLYRUSH, CO. SLIGO.
  MR. SEXTONasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether, at 12 o'clock on the night of the 29th of June last, District Inspector Smith, of Riverstown, county Sligo, accompanied by Acting Sergeant Glennon and a constable, demanded admission to the house of Mr. Willis, Bally-rush, and, having entered the house, proceeded to search it; whether District Inspector Smith unlocked, by means of a key which he had brought with him, a box, the property of the Ballyrush Branch of the Irish National League, and examined the papers contained in it; and, what were the reasons and authority for this proceeding?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)(who replied) said: I am informed that the statements in the Question are substantially correct. The Sub-Inspector reports that he acted under the authority of a warrant to search for specimens of handwriting given by Colonel Ffolliott, a magistrate. I may add that I do not understand, and am not satisfied with, this explanation, and I have asked for a copy of the warrant

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  and the information, if any, on which it was based. I intend to investigate the matter fully.
  MR. SEXTON: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman lay a copy of the warrant on the Table of the House?
  MR. HOLMES: As I have not seen the document I am not prepared to answer that Question.

  INDIA—THE CIVIL SERVICE—THE COMMITTEE OF INQUIRY.
  SIR ROPER LETHBRIDGEasked the Under Secretary of State for India, Whether the inquiry into the Civil Services, stated now to be taking place in India, is conducted by a Committee composed almost exclusively of covenanted officials; whether any and what facilities are offered by this Committee for the public expression and examination of the opinions of members of the uncovenanted Civil Services, and of the Natives of India generally; and, whether any intimation has been received by Her Majesty's Government, either officially or through the Indian Press, that this Committee does not command the confidence either of uncovenanted civil officers or of the Native public?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE (Sir JOHN GORST): Sir, the inquiry in India into the Civil Services will be conducted by a Commission; but no intimation as to its actual composition has been yet received by the Secretary of State. It is intended that some of its members shall be Natives, and that it shall extend its inquiries over various parts of India, and among all classes of the people. No intimation has been received by Her Majesty's Government of any want of confidence in the proposed Commission. The Secretary of State has received no information as to the proceedings of the Finance Committee at Bombay last week; but this Finance Committee is not identical with the Commission for inquiry into the Civil Service.

  PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND)— CAPPAGH PIER, KILRUSH.
  MR. JORDANasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If the Kilrush Town Commissioners are now an urban sanitary authority; if, as such, they should have charge of the Cappagh Pier, Kilrush;
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  if the Board of Trade has been communicated with repeatedly on the matter; if, up to the present, no satisfactory reply or information has been received; and, if the Department will be instructed at once to perfect the arrangements by which the pier will be handed over to the Kilrush Commissioners?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)(who replied) said, that a draft order framed by counsel for transferring power to the Kilrush Town Commissioners could be completed in a few days.

  CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)—THE RIOTS AT BELFAST—COMPENSATION FOR DAMAGE TO THE ROYAL HOSPITAL.
  MR. SEXTONasked the noble Lord the Chancellor of the Exchequer If it was the intention of the Government to submit a Supplementary Estimate for a grant in aid of the Royal Hospital at Belfast; and, if so, whether the amount of the Vote would be the amount incurred by the treatment of persons injured during the riots?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Lord RANDOLPH CHURCHILL): The hon. Member will recollect that what I stated was this—that if the Irish Authorities should be of opinion that the grant should be allowed, I would bring the matter before the Treasury. The Treasury would be prepared to give it every consideration. But, so far, the Irish Office has made no communication on the subject.
  MR. SEXTON: Will the noble Lord have any objection to communicate with the Irish Office?
  LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL: I think the hon. Member is a far greater adept in the art of setting the Irish Office in motion than I am.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOE IRELAND (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH)confessed he had heard the statement of his noble Friend with considerable satisfaction, because it held out some hope of liberal treatment on the part of the Treasury, which would be very agreeable to him in the future. He would look into the matter again, in order to see what course he could recommend to the Treasury. But he

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  should like to say that, as at present advised, it seemed to him not right to recommend the Treasury to submit a Vote to the House to make a grant in aid of the Royal Hospital in Belfast for treating the inhabitants of Belfast, who had themselves been presumably concerned in the riots, and had been admitted into the hospital in consequence. There might be cases in which some grant might be made to the Royal Hospital in Belfast if the constabulary and military had been treated in that hospital. He would endeavour to make himself acquainted with the facts, and if he could see his way to do so, he would make a recommendation to that effect.

  CHANNEL FISHERIES—FISHERIES REGULATION, 1843—DETENTION OF ENGLISH FISHING SMACKS AT HAVRE.
  MR. ROUNDasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether he could give the House any information respecting the case of the 11 fishing smacks, chiefly belonging to the River Colne, detained at Havre for nearly a week; what charge was brought against them; and, what steps Her Majesty's Government were taking in the matter?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE (Sir JAMES FERGUSSON): Certain English fishing smacks entered the port of Havre to pass there Sunday, the 5th instant. By the Convention of 1843, regulating fishing in the British Channel, British fishing boats are only allowed to enter French ports in bad weather. The weather was fine on the 5th instant, and therefore these fishermen acted against this regulation. We are also informed that these boats are accused of having gathered oysters in French waters, and transferred them to other vessels at sea. It appears that the observance of the rule against entering French ports has not been enforced for several years, and that this presumably has been to the benefit of the provision trade at French ports. The Board of Trade, however, in consequence of this action of the authorities at Havre, will issue a notice to British fishermen not to enter French ports except in stress of weather; and Her Majesty's Minister at Paris has been instructed to take such action as he properly can on behalf of the fishermen in question.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY—CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.
  SUPPLY—considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)

  CLASS II.—SALARIES AND EXPENSES OF CIVIL DEPARTMENTS.
  (1.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £10,043, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of Her Majesty's Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues, and of the Office of Land Revenue Records and Inrolments."
  MR. CLANCY: I wish to draw attention to the figures given by the Commissioners of Woods and Forests with regard to the income derived from the woods and forests, and the expenditure incurred upon them. I think the figures are somewhat extraordinary, and deserve the closest attention of those who desire to see the public money applied to some useful purpose and not absolutely wasted. I find that the total receipts for Windsor Parks and Woods was £4,335 17 s. 8d., and the total expenditure £23,681 18 s. 1d., showing an excess of expenditure over income of £19,346 0s. 6d. For the New Forest, the total receipts were £12,215 9s. 10 d., and the expenditure £11,401 10 s. 11 d. For Dean Forest, the total receipts were £7,677 7s. 1d., and the expenditure £6,503 17 s. 6d. For the High-meadow Woods, the total receipts were £1,869 4s. 11 d., and the expenditure £1,608 11 s. 1d. For the Alice Holt Woods, the total receipts were £1,468 12 s. 3d., and the expenditure £836 17 s. 4d. For the Woolmer Estate, the total receipts were £1,081 12 s. 6d., and the expenditure£166 1s. And for the Bere Woods, the total receipts were £1,315 7s. 5d. and the expenditure £922 4s. 2d. The total receipts for all these parks and forests amounted to £26,251 19 s. 1d., and the expenditure to £22,007 0s. 5d., leaving an excess of receipts of £4,244 18 s. 8d., which is carried to the credit of the country. That seems to me to be a most extraordinary result, and one that requires some explanation in defence of the Vote on behalf of the Commissioners

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  of Woods and Forests, and unless there is a satisfactory explanation, I shall feel disposed to move the reduction of the Vote by the amount of the salary of the Commissioners. Allow me also to draw the attention of the Committee to the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General in reference to the accounts of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests of last year. In the first place, I must say that the way in which these Reports are laid before the House is most inconvenient. They may be produced at any time within three months of the 31st of March—that is to say, the autumn may have been reached before they are presented; they then take some time to print, and by the time they are submitted to Parliament the Estimates have been passed and there is no possibility of checking the accounts for that year. According to the Report last published there are several things in regard to this Vote which require explanation, and I trust that the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury, being the official who is responsible, will endeavour to explain them. They include a receipt for £20,000 from the South-Eastern Railway Company for the purchase money of Sandgate Castle, and upon that item the Comptroller and Auditor General remarks, in reply to an inquiry whether interest is not payable on the purchase money between the dates of the sale and the completion of the purchase—
  "I am informed that it could not be ascertained that there was a binding contract for the sale until the purchase was completed."
  There is no charge for the demolition of Sandgate Castle, or for the erection of new works; but there are some items in reference to the expenditure on Sandgate Castle in the earlier Votes. The Comptroller and Auditor General says—
  "I am of opinion, in the absence of any explanation to the contrary, that the surplus should be paid over to the Exchequer."
  He goes on to say—
  "In my Report on the accounts last year, I called attention to the practice adopted by the Crown Receivers, of applying rent received from ordinary tenants towards the expenses of carrying on farms in hand, and I expressed a hope that this objectionable practice would be abandoned, but it has not been abandoned."
  The Comptroller and Auditor General adds—
  "Although it is only a small amount, this practice can only result in casting a doubt upon
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  the accuracy of the balance in the hands of the Receiver."
  Now, these balance-sheets are presented to the Committee, and we are asked to accept them as containing a proper account of the income and expenditure of this Department; whereas it turns out from the remarks of the Comptroller and Auditor General that they are nothing of the kind, and the objectionable practice which he has pointed out, instead of having been abandoned after attention was called to it, has gone on now for two years in succession. I think it is high time that some attempt should be made to deal with the matter and put a stop to a practice which misleads Parliament, and may lead to the misappropriation of the public money. It appears to me that all this arises from the fact that Members of the Government perform their duties in this and many other matters in a very perfunctory manner. These Reports are presented to Parliament year after year; they cost a great deal of money to prepare, present, and circulate, and the net result seems to be nothing at all, as the Members of the Government do not seem to pay the least attention to them, and wink at the malpractices of gentlemen who have failed to do their duty. I should like to know from the Secretary to the Treasury, whether the Report made by the Comptroller and Auditor General last year was brought under his notice or the notice of his Predecessor, and, if so, whether any action was taken upon it? There is another paragraph in this Report which refers to another matter, but which I think deserves the careful consideration of the Secretary to the Treasury. In the early part of last year the Comptroller and Auditor General says—
  "Cases occurred in which an account of certain public monies was not returned to me."
  They had relation to the Crown rents, and on writing to the Receiver, Mr. Clutton, on the 6th March, 1885, the Comptroller and Auditor General obtained not only a refusal to hand over his bank pass-books in reference to the appropriation of this money, but a statement that the money itself had been incorporated by the Receiver of Crown rents in the banking account of his firm—namely, that of Messrs. Clutton. Mr. Clutton says—

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  "I have not, and never have had, any separate account, and I cannot therefore produce the pass-book as requested."
  This gentleman is so high and mighty in himself, and so thoroughly independent of the Government, that when called upon for an explanation of these accounts, he returns a most jaunty reply, which amounts in fact, to a virtual negative. I commend this reply to the Treasury, and the part which concerns the Treasury is the intimation from the Comptroller and Auditor General that he at once communicated the reply of Mr. Clutton to the Treasury—a reply which I cannot help looking upon as not only unsatisfactory but even impudent. In December last, the Comptroller and Auditor General refers to the same matter again, and he states that he had not yet received any intimation that Mr. Clutton had accepted the invitation addressed to him, and he adds—
  "I am still without the evidence which would be afforded by the bank pass-book to show whether the amount in the hands of the Receivers is correct."
  There can be very little doubt now as to who is the real master of the Treasury. It appears to be Mr. Clutton, the Receiver of the Crown Rents. All the officials bow their heads before the great Mr. Clutton, and when he is asked to give an account of the public money received by him, and to show his passbook to satisfy the Comptroller and Auditor General of the correctness of his statements, he simply declines to do anything of the kind, and tells the Comptroller and Auditor General that he keeps the account mixed up with the private money of his own firm. He further implies that if the authorities do not like that arrangement, they may do what they like in the matter. When I find that conduct of this character is tolerated by the Treasury, I can only come to the conclusion that the responsible Ministers of the Crown, to whom the Irish people will have to pay attention in future, are the firm of Messrs. Clutton, and hereafter I presume it will become our duty to study the best means of conciliating those gentlemen. The policy of this House may be good or bad; but if Messrs. Clutton do not approve of it, it will make a very considerable difference. I want to know how it is that Messrs. Clutton exercise this ex-
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  traordinary power over the Government, and why they are allowed to be so independent of the control and authority of the Treasury? If an explanation on this head is not forthcoming, and is not satisfactory, I shall certainly move to reduce the Vote by the amount of the salary of Mr. Clutton.
  MR. MOLLOY: Before the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury answers the Question, I wish to ask him to give some information to the Committee as to how much Mr. Clutton receives in the course of the year. Does the money, which I believe to be a very large sum, remain for any length of time in the bank to the private account of his firm? I want to know what amount has been received upon this account during the year, and how much, if any, has been paid in to the Treasury? I must also draw the attention of the hon. Gentleman to the fact that anything more unbusinesslike—I do not want to use harsher words—but anything more unbusinesslike it is impossible to conceive than for the Receiver of Crown Rents, or, in other words, the Receiver of trust money, to mix up that money with his own banking account. What makes it worse in the case of Mr. Clutton is, that when he is called upon for an account by the Government authority, he declines to give any, on the plea that he has been guilty of what I merely characterize as a most unbusinesslike act. What I want to know is whether the authorities are content to be held at arms-length by Mr. Clutton? Mr. Clutton has been called upon for such an account as will enable the Comptroller and Auditor General to state to the Department whether the Returns sent in are correct. Mr. Clutton declines to give that information; whereupon the Comptroller and Auditor General sits down and writes a letter, but does nothing more; and I want to know what the Government are going to do? Are they going to follow the example of the Comptroller and Auditor General; or are they disposed to exercise their authority and compel Mr. Clutton to keep their accounts in such a way as will enable the authorities to see whether they are correct or not?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. JACKSON): In answer to the hon. Member for North Dublin (Mr. Clancy), I have to say that

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  I regret equally with him that the income from the Woods and Forests to which he has referred is not larger; but I am informed that these woods are in what may be called a growing condition; but, at present, it is impossible for them to bring in a larger income. The hon. Member seems to think that the expenditure upon them is too large, and I am disposed to agree with him in that opinion. But after the preliminary discussion of the Motion of the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere) which took place the other day, the Committee will be aware that I promised to pay attention to the question, and I hope that before this time next year the points which have been referred to will be cleared up. With regard to the remarks which have been made by the hon. Member on other points, I may say that the sum for the purchase of Sand-gate Castle has been paid by the South Eastern Railway Company to the Government in consequence of damage done to Government property. As to the question he has raised in reference to Mr. Clutton, the Receiver of Crown Bents, and what has taken plane in connection with that matter, I understand that the hon. Member was not reading from the last Report of the Public Accounts Committee, because I find that in the Report of the Public Accounts Committee for 1885 a question was put by the Chairman of that Committee—Sir Reginald Welby—to this effect—"There is a note made by the Comptroller and Auditor General in regard to the manner in which certain accounts are kept. Have arrangements been made that they shall be kept in a more regular manner in future?" The answer is—"Arrangements have been made, and I believe the course suggested by the Comptroller and Auditor General has been adopted." [Mr. MOLLOY: What Report is that?] It is a Report of the Public Accounts Committee which relates to a meeting which took place on the 1st of July, 1885. Mr. Culley was under examination, and in reply to the Chairman's question he said that that was so, and that the course suggested by the Comptroller and Auditor General had been adopted. Being asked if there was anything more he desired to say, he answered "No." In the Public Accounts Committee this year certainly no question was raised, as far as I
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  remember, and I was a Member of that Committee. I understand that arrangements have been made since the date of the Report to which the hon. Member has referred—arrangements under which these accounts have been placed on a more satisfactory basis. I certainly go full length with the hon. Member and the hon. Member who followed him in saying that the mixing up of public money with private money is a system which no man of business would for a moment tolerate. I am not able to speak with regard to the details of this case; but I will inquire into the matter, and will satisfy myself that the system has been put straight. There was another question asked by the hon. Member for King's County (Mr. Molloy) which I think I can answer. He inquired what the amount is which Mr. Clutton has received in the course of the year. I hope, notwithstanding all that has been stated about the great power and authority of Mr. Clutton, that it will not be supposed for a moment that the Treasury consider it necessary to take any steps against him, or against anybody else, for the protection of the public interests. [Mr. MOLLOY: I made no charges against Mr. Clutton.] I think the hon. Member used the words, "misappropriation of public money," which, to my mind, certainly amounts to a charge. The amount received by Mr. Clutton in the course of the year, in the shape of poundage on revenues collected, amounted to £4,873 10 s. 3d., and he received a sum for professional charges amounting to £2,505 16 s. 11 d. I hope the hon. Member will be satisfied with my assurance that the question shall receive, at the hands of those responsible for the business of the Treasury, most careful consideration in order that it may be placed on a proper basis.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: I presume that by poundage the hon. Gentleman means commission?
  MR. JACKSON: Yes.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: I stated a day or two ago, when the Speaker was in the Chair, my intention to draw attention to this matter, and I understood then that the commission was 4 percent. I should like to know if that is so, and the hon. and gallant Member for North-West Sussex (Sir Walter B. Barttelot) will perhaps be able to tell me by-and-bye. If it is the fact, all I have

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  to say is that 4 per cent is very excessive. My hon. Friend behind me (Mr. Clancy) has called attention to one or two points in regard to the revenue derived from Woods and Forests. His principal point was the large amount of expenditure upon Windsor Great Park and Windsor Forest. In a certain sense, we are paying rent for this property—that is to say, we give to Her Majesty a Civil List on condition that she hands over to us this property which is supposed to be remunerative; but, on consideration of receiving these rents, the country absolutely loses by the Windsor Great Park and Windsor Forests more than £21,000 per annum. It was said, when attention was called to the matter the other day, that a large amount of money is spent in maintaining the roads. I would again appeal to the hon. and gallant Member for North-West Sussex whether he would not take Windsor Great Park and Forests, and undertake to keep up the roads, without incurring an annual loss of £21,000 per annum? We all know that it would be done for a much less expenditure than now takes place. At present a most reckless and wasteful system is followed with regard to these Crown lands. I find that in the Windsor Park andForests£500 is spent in food for game. Seeing that the game and deer are maintained for the benefit of the Members of the Royal Family, I do not see why we should be called upon to pay £500 per annum for feeding the pheasants in this park. I presume that this matter, as well as others, will be referred to the Commission that is about to be appointed; but I maintain that we shall never have any real control over this large expenditure until we have publicity; and I would suggest, therefore, that all such items should appear in the Estimates. I have never been able to understand why this expenditure should not figure, like other expenditure, on the Estimates, and why it should not be submitted, in the usual way, to this House. We often move for the reduction of a Vote, although we seldom carry it; but still the fact of the accounts being submitted to this House, and of complaints being made of excessive expenditure, does exercise some sort of control over the authorities. I find that where there is the greatest waste is precisely in those matters that are not submitted to the House. I am sure that
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  the Secretary to the Treasury has no desire that there should be any waste in this matter, and I would urge him to use his influence in insisting upon the whole of the accounts being presented, like all other public accounts, to this House.
  MR. CLANCY: I wish to say that I made no charge against Mr. Clutton, except that made by the Comptroller and Auditor General. I did say, and I repeat it, that the action of Mr. Clutton was calculated to mislead Parliament, and that if similar proceedings were allowed it might possibly lead to the misappropriation of public money. It is obviously wrong to mix up the public money with private accounts.
  MR. JACKSON: I have already informed the hon. Gentleman that that is not the case now.
  MR. CLANCY: The hon. Gentleman quoted from the Report of the Public Accounts Committee for 1885; but I quoted from the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General of the 30th of June, 1886. If the hon. Gentleman will read this document, he will see that this is the second occasion upon which the matter has been mentioned.
  MR. JACKSON: I may say that the Receivers not only give an adequate security for the money they have in their hands, but, in this particular case, it has been arranged recently that a separate account should be kept. Such separate accounts are, as a matter of fact, now kept by the Receiver.
  MR. CLANCY: I do not understand when this change occurred. The Report I am now alluding to refers to a matter which was in existence in January last, and the Comptroller and Auditor General says that this is the second time he has called attention to it. He says in the early part of last year—
  "I requested that Mr. Clutton's bank passbook, relating to transactions in reference to Crown rents, should be sent to me for inspection."
  Then came the answer of Mr. Clutton, which I already read. The Comptroller and Auditor General says—
  "I at once communicated this reply to the Treasury, and in December last I received a letter in reference to the subject; but I have not, as yet, received any intimation that Mr. Clutton intends to accept that invitation addressed to him; and I am actually in doubt, owing to the absence of the bank pass-book, whether the balance in the hands of the Receiver is correct."

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  I want to know if the request of the Comptroller and Auditor General has been complied with since January last? I strongly suspect that the Secretary to the Treasury is referring to something which took place in the previous January; and as I am not satisfied with the explanation which has been given I beg to move that the Vote be reduced by the sum of £4,000, being the amount of poundage received by this great authority.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £6,043, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of Her Majesty's Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues, and of the Office of Land Revenue Records and Inrol-ments."—(Mr. Clancy.)
  MR. BRADLAUGH: A phrase has been used during the course of this debate which I think ought not to be passed over—namely, that the lands under the control of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests are lands which have been surrendered by Her Majesty, and that in return for the surrender of those lands a Civil List has been granted. That is a pure fiction, and although it has been often repeated, it has not a word of truth in it; and I think it is necessary, every time it is repeated in this House, that it should be contradicted. I took occasion, in the late Parliament, when a Vote relating to this matter was under consideration, to quote to the then Members of the Government, who represented the Treasury, the whole of the Act of Parliament relating to this matter. It is not necessary to go very far back, because the first Civil List was only granted on the occasion of the accession of William III., and there is no pretence for saying that the Act 9 & 10 Will. III., c. 23, recites any surrender, or pretends that there was any surrender. On the contrary, it is an Act granting certain revenues for life to the King for the Civil Government of the country. When William III. died his whole interest in the Civil List ceased, and the grant reverted to the grantors—namely, the nation. On the accession of Queen Anne a new Civil List Act was passed, and that Act, 1 Anne, c. 1, contains no reference to any surrender.
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  It was simply a grant to the Queen for her life only. On the accession of George I., when Queen Anne died, I believe it is not assumed that he had anything to surrender, because neither he nor his family, when they came to this country, had anything here which it was possible for them to surrender; when George I. came to the Throne a Civil List was granted to him by the Act 1 Geo. I., c. 1, and a similar Act was passed on the accession of George II. It was not until George III. succeeded to the Throne that any kind of alteration was made in the Act, and even then it was only in the recital portion of it. There is no claim in that Act on account of any surrender; but it says that—
  "His Majesty has been graciously pleased to signify that such disposition may be made of his interests in certain hereditary revenues as might best conduce to the utility and satisfaction of the public."
  That signification is as nude and devoid of real meaning as it possibly can be. There never has been any surrender of any specific lands at any time, and the Civil List, for good or evil, is a grant on the part of the nation for the government of the country, and there is no pretence whatever for saying that there has been a single farthing surrendered to the nation.
  MR. MOLLOY: The hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury commenced his remarks by protesting against charges having been made against the Receivers of Crown Rents. Now, neither my hon. Friend the Member for North Dublin (Mr. Clancy) nor I made any charge whatever. The only charge that was made was against the manner in which these accounts are kept; and since the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury made his reply my hon. Friend has shown that the answer of the Secretary to the Treasury gives no information at all, and does not tend in the slightest degree to elucidate the matter. All the hon. Gentleman told me was the amount of poundage received by Mr. Clutton. I did not ask for that information. I presume that the amount of poundage on commission is a matter of agreement between the authorities and Mr. Clutton.
  MR. JACKSON: I understood the hon. Gentleman to ask me how much Mr. Clutton received during the year,

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  and I gave him the amount paid for his professional services, and also the amount which he received in the shape of poundage.
  MR. MOLLOY: The hon. Gentleman misunderstood what I said, and I will explain what it was that I meant. I understand that Mr. Clutton is the Receiver of Crown Rents, in regard to which there is very little trouble as respects collection. They are not like agricultural rents or house rents; and what I wished to ascertain was the sum received per year by Mr. Clutton, on behalf of the Crown, in the shape of Crown rents. There appears to be a gigantic salary received by Mr. Clutton, seeing that the Treasury pays him more than £4,000, in the shape of poundage, at 4 per cent. Now, I would submit that 4 per cent is more than a landlord gets out of his rents nowadays. The question I asked wasthis—what was the total sum received by Mr. Clutton during the year, not as poundage or commission, but the total amount received by him and paid in to the account of the Treasury? It is quite evident that it must have amounted to more than £100,000; and any person having a large sum of £50,000 or £100,000 lying in the bank would certainly place some of it at deposit, and would receive interest upon it; and the interest upon £50,000, payable under a deposit arrangement, would amount to a very considerable sum. I do not say that Messrs. Clutton make any such arrangement, or that they kept the interest they received. I should be very sorry to make any statement of the kind; but so little do the Treasury seem to know of the manner in which the accounts are kept, that, although we are discussing very large items, there is no one present who can tell us such a simple fact as this. What I maintain is that it is impossible for the Government to find this out so long as the two accounts are kept together; and I and my hon. Friend laid stress upon the fact that the trust account and the private account should be kept together. By pursuing such a system of keeping the accounts, it is impossible for the Comptroller and Auditor General to vouch for the correctness of the accounts; and accordingly he writes to the Treasury Authorities and says—
  "I have been unable to get this bank passbook. Messrs. Clutton have refused to allow me to look at it, because the two accounts
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  are mixed up, and therefore I am unable to tell the authorities whether this account is correctly or incorrectly kept."
  That was the point upon which I asked for information from the Government. I hope the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury will not suppose that I am making this a personal matter between him and myself. I am aware that he has only just accepted Office, and that it must be very difficult for him to understand these matters. I am not complaining of anything that he has done; but I am simply pointing out that this is a vicious mode of keeping the public accounts, and I laid stress upon it because I wish to justify the opposition I am making to it. I may state to the House the opinion of one of the highest Government authorities we have at present. I am told by the gentleman to whom I refer that if the Civil Service Accounts were properly kept, and due attention devoted to the items which are presented to this House, without in the least degree affecting the good work of the Civil Service, about £1,500,000 per annum might be saved to the country—a sum equal to the receipts from 1d. of Income Tax. The hon. Gentleman will therefore understand why I press the matter, and that I am not actuated by any personal motive with regard to the hon. Gentleman himself. I am satisfied that it is impossible for him to make himself master of these details in the short time he has been in Office; but his Predecessor, and others, ought to be able to give some information, because this kind of arrangement has gone on from time immemorial. The whole system is vicious; and, although I do not apply this remark to Mr. Clutton, it opens the door to waste.
  MR. J. W. BARCLAY: I should like to have an explanation from the Government of the duties which Mr. Clutton has to perform for the large amount of £4,800 which he appears to have received in the shape of poundage. For my own part, I see no necessity for employing Mr. Clutton at all. The Woods and Forests have a large estabment of their own, and I do not see why they should not collect the Crown rents without the intervention of any person outside. As to the management of the Crown estates, I think it would be a better arrangement to employ a surveyor belonging to the Department, who

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  should be directly responsible to the Commissioners for the management of the estates, and that this would be a more advantageous arrangement, not only for the State, but also for the tenants. I will ask the Secretary to the Treasury what is the nature of the arrangement with Mr. Clutton, and if it is not possible for the Department of Woods and Forests to manage the estates and collect the rents themselves without the intervention of Mr. Clutton; and if he does not think that that would be a much more advantageous arrangement for the tenants of the property?
  MR. DILLON: I find here a salary of £900 paid to a Receiver General in connection with the Department of Wood and Forests and Land Revenues. I want to know if that gentleman also gets poundage, or whether the Receiver General is Mr. Clutton? I also desire to know how much money is collected altogether through this officer; and, secondly, if the sum be £100,000 or £200,000, whether it takes more than one person to collect it? My own impression is that there is a sufficient staff of clerks in the Establishment to collect these rents easily. I cannot understand why so large a number of officials should be necessary in the Department. I also want to know why Mr. Clutton is not paid a reasonable salary—say £1,000 a-year—instead of getting a monstrous sum in the shape of poundage? According to the statement of the Secretary to the Treasury, Mr. Clutton receives something like £6,000 a-year, and, so far as I can make out, he receives that large sum for doing almost nothing at all; for not only are there other Receivers paid by the country, but there is an ample staff employed in the office, consisting of Commissioners at £1,200 a-year, Assistant Commissioners, a surveyor, a principal clerk, assistant clerks, junior clerks, Chief Mineral Inspector, Receiver General, Receiver for the County of Middlesex, assistant to the Receiver General, book-keepers, and drawing clerk, all of whom are liberally paid for doing the work of the Department. Then I want to know what Mr. Clutton does for this £6,000 a-year, and whether there are any other Receivers who are also paid for collecting this Crown Revenue, or whether the Receiver General, who appears here with a salary
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  of £900 a-year, is Mr. Clutton, or some other official?
  MR. JACKSON: In regard to the question as to the system of keeping the accounts, to which reference has been made in the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, what I desired to convey to the Committee was that the system has been altered in consequence of what the Comptroller and Auditor General stated. It was altered after his remarks, and before the last meeting of the Public Accounts Committee; and, as hon. Members know, no reference was made to it at the last meeting of the Public Accounts Committee. I think that hon. Gentlemen opposite may accept that fact on my statement—namely, that the system has been altered, and that there is no mixing up now of public and private moneys. What I desire is to satisfy the hon. Member for North Dublin and the Committee that the system of which the hon. Member has properly complained has been changed. I am informed that Mr. Clutton regularly remits the money he receives, and that he seldom retains a larger balance than £500, which, he is allowed to do by Act of Parliament. That, I think, disposes of all question about the supposed loss to the public of a large amount of interest on the money in hand. I may point out that Mr. Clutton has nothing to do with the collection of rents with regard to public property in Pall Mall. Mr. Clutton has in his hands the valuation, letting, and collection of the rents of certain farms, together with their management, in the South of England; and I believe the amount of rent collected is something like £120,000 a-year. He has nothing whatever to do with the collection of rents upon house property. The hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) referred to the Receiver General connected with the Department of Woods and Forests. That gentleman is, I think, Mr. Higgins. He is paid a salary of £900 a-year, and he has the collection of certain rents for houses in London and Windsor. An other Eeceiver—Mr. Gower—is paid a poundage and a small sum in consideration of other work he performs. His duties are similar to those of Mr. Clutton, and he has to deal with the same kind of property in the North of England. The amount of his collection is about £44,000. He receives 2½ per cent on £6,000, and 4 per cent upon

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  £18,000. Referring again to Mr. Clutton, I may say that he has to deal with the management of farms, and he has had a long experience in connection with, the work he performs. I think I have now answered all the questions which have teen put to me.
  MR. BEADEL: Some expressions have been used in reference to Mr. Glutton to which I think it necessary to advert. I may say that, as far as Mr. Clutton is concerned, he stands at the head of his profession, and is altogether beyond reproach. I may go still further, and say that I have some little practical knowledge of what his management of the Crown estates has been, although I have not the slightest interest in his firm. The duties which devolve upon Mr. Clutton are of an extremely arduous and responsible character; and if hon. Members imagine that they are confined to the receiving of rents they are altogether mistaken. Mr. Clutton has to keep up a large and able staff in order to carry on the Crown business, and that staff he pays out of the sums received from his private receivership. In these troublous times, in consequence of the fall in rents, and the terribly low prices which the farmers are now receiving for their produce—a fact which is equally as applicable to this country as it is to Ireland—Mr. Clutton has not only to receive the Crown rents, but to undertake, to a great extent, the management of the farms on the Crown estates, and the duties which devolve upon him are much more responsible than could possibly be carried out by any other official, however competent he might be. Moreover, Mr. Clutton has to find people on the spot to look after the interests and rights of the Crown; and he is called upon to manage large forests over which, comparatively speaking, there is very little supervision indeed, but, nevertheless, involving a considerable amount of trouble and attention. In the interests of the Crown estates, I think it would be absolutely impossible to find anybody as competent as Mr. Clutton to do the business which he now performs.
  MR. J. W. BARCLAY: I quite understand that Mr. Clutton is at the head of his Profession; but I do not understand that any exception has been taken to the manner in which he has discharged his duties. The question which I put to the Com-
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  mittee was, whether the Commissioners of Woods and Forests might not have the services of someone in the Department, instead of employing Mr. Clutton at all? We all know that Mr. Clutton has a large number of estates under his management; and I am under the impression that the Commissioners of Woods and Forests would be able to manage the Crown property better than Mr. Clutton by employing a staff of their own, and placing themselves more directly in contact with the tenants than is now the case. The Commissioners are quite capable of exercising a sound judgment in regard to the management of land; and it must not be forgotten that we already possess, in connection with the Department of Woods and Forests, a very large staff indeed. Mr. Clutton has an important business, altogether independent of that which he conducts for the State, and it is impossible for him to devote to the Crown lands more than a small portion of his time. He is obliged to depend upon his officials; and I do not see why the Woods and Forests should not depend, in the same manner, upon the judgment of their staff of officials. I should like to know whether the hon. Member who addressed the House last (Mr. Beadel) has of late years been able to make any profit out of any of the land which he may have farmed? I have certainly not heard that any landed proprietor has been able to do so. They are obliged to be content with whatever amount of rent they can get, because, by taking the land into their own hands, they find that they receive much less. I am satisfied that it would be of great advantage to the tenants of the Crown lands if they were able to deal directly with the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, rather than with a third person.
  MR. BEADEL: I am quite aware of the condition in which farming operations are now placed, and that there are landed proprietors who are unable to make a profit out of the land in hand. However, with regard to Mr. Clutton, there is no doubt that he has the management of a very large business, independently of that which he looks after for the Crown; but, at the same time, he is able to bring to bear on the management of the Crown property, in consequence of that large business, a judgment which no private person can possibly

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  possess. Therefore he is the right man in the right place. With regard to the land in hand, if the hon. Member for Forfarshire had one tithe of the experience of Mr. Clutton, he would know that it is absolutely impossible to let certain farms, even if no rent at all is charged upon them; and the little loss which the State sustains in connection with the Crown lands is entirely owing to the management of Mr. Clutton.
  MR. CLANCY: The apology offered by the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Beadel) on behalf of Mr. Clutton is of the stereotyped form which we are accustomed to hear in this House. No official has ever been attacked in Parliament, or any abuse exposed, without our hearing from some authority or other that the person incriminated was a man of the highest possible ability and character, with the most respectable antecedents, and the very best man who could be obtained for the position. I will repeat again that I have made no charge against Mr. Clutton, except that which was made by the Comptroller and Auditor General; but I may add this—which I know from experience to be true—that a man may get a very good character in this House, and yet be quite a different sort of being in actual fact. Last year one of the most degraded and basest villains over employed in any country was sent to prison on a disgraceful charge in Ireland, although he had been only a couple of weeks before excessively lauded from the Treasury Bench. All that I have done in regard to Mr. Clutton has been to call the attention of the Committee to a statement of the Comptroller and Auditor General; and, in my opinion, that statement has not yet been answered by the Secretary to the Treasury. The hon. Gentleman assures us, and asks us to accept his assurance, that Mr. Clutton will graciously consent in future not to place the money of the Crown into his own private account, and that he will also graciously surrender his pass-books to the Comptroller and Auditor General; but he has not answered the charge made against him by the Comptroller and Auditor General in his last Report, dated January, 1886, which stated distinctly that Mr. Clutton defied the Treasury, and refused to surrender his pass-books with regard to past transactions. A pitched battle seems to have been fought between
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  the Comptroller and Auditor General and Mr. Clutton, with the result that Mr. Clutton was able to walk off triumphant. Having gone off with the honours of war, he graciously consents now to comply with the conditions imposed by the Government. I do not think that his past conduct ought to be passed over without comment; and, therefore, I have moved the reduction of the Vote by £4,000, the amount of poundage received by Mr. Clutton.
  MR. DILLON: I think that what has been stated by the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury justifies my hon. Friend the Member for North Dublin (Mr. Clancy) in going to a division on this Vote. What are the facts now before the Committee? They are that Mr. Clutton, whose earnings amounted to between £6,000 and £7,000 a-year, only spends a very small portion of his valuable time upon the Crown property. Now, I never heard the name of Mr. Clutton before, and I know nothing of him. I have heard the hon. Member for Chelms-ford (Mr. Beadel) declare that his services are exceedingly valuable; but the question is whether the services of any man are of sufficient value to the State that, for a small portion of his time, he ought to be paid £6,000 or £7,000 a-year. Are we to be told that the Government cannot get a man in England to give all his time and do all of this work for less than £6,000 or £7,000 a-year? Why, Sir, the President of the Board of Trade only gets £2,000 a-year, and the President of the Local Government Board a similar sum. Those Gentlemen are supposed to be men of ability, and they give all their time to the duties of their Department. Mr. Clutton, however, gets £6,000 a year for collecting the Crown rents, and has permission to devote the best part of his time to his own private business. We have heard the warm eulogium which has been passed on the conduct of Mr. Clutton by the hon. Member opposite. Mr. Clutton may be a man of great ability, and he may deserve all the praise which has been poured upon him; but, although the Secretary to the Treasury assures us that a change has been made in this most reprehensible method of keeping the public accounts, I cannot find that any severe reprimand has been passed upon Mr. Clutton for the course he has hitherto pursued.

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  Then, again, how do we know that he manages these Crown farms so wonderfully well; because in this Report we find that he is continually in collision with the Comptroller and Auditor General in regard to the large expenditure he has incurred upon farm buildings. It may be a good expenditure; but the fact still remains that he has been spending £2,000 or £3,000 in that way, without making a proper Return to the Treasury, and that it has been necessary to call him to account. Now, I venture to submit that there is not a man in England, I do not care what his qualifications are, or what services are required in a collector of rents, who is worth £6,000 a-year to the State. I am perfectly satisfied that £1,500 would secure for the service of the State as good a man as can be required, and at least £4,500 a-year would in that case be saved to the Treasury. I therefore think that no time should be lost in reducing the emoluments now enjoyed by this gentleman.
  MR. JACKSON: I wish to point out to the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Dillon) that he can hardly be aware that the sum paid to Mr. Clutton cannot, in any sense, be called a payment for his personal services. For the duties for which he receives this sum he has to keep up a very large establishment, and a considerable staff; and, therefore, it cannot be treated as a payment for his own personal services. I think the hon. Gentleman will clearly see that, if he will consider the vast amount of work that has been done in connection with the management and collection of rents for property extending over a large area of country. I am sorry that I have not been able to make the matter clear, and that the hon. Member for the Northern Division of the County of Dublin (Mr. Clancy) is still dissatisfied with my answer. I have endeavoured to show that the Report to which he refers was a Report made by the Comptroller and Auditor General before the last meeting of the Public Accounts Committee. It was made at the beginning of this year. This year the Committee of Public Accounts made the ordinary arrangements for the collection of these rents, and at this moment everything which the Comptroller and Auditor General asks is carried into effect. I may appeal to the fact that, at the last meeting of the
  208
  Public Accounts Committee, the Comptroller and Auditor General did not call the attention of that Committee to Mr. Clutton, as he undoubtedly would have done, unless there had been an alteration in the system. Therefore, I hope the hon. Member will accept my assurance that the accounts are now kept as he desires.
  SIR JOSEPH M'KENNA: I quite accept what the hon. Gentleman says—that the accounts are now kept according to the rules laid down by the Comptroller and Auditor General; but what I think the Committee have a right to complain of is that the accounts now presented to us really do not show what the actual remuneration received by Mr. Clutton is. I believe that between £6,000 and £7,000, which appears to be the gross sum paid for his services, is excessive; and I think that the Vote should be reduced, at all events, by £2,000. I would, therefore, ask my hon. Friend (Mr. Clancy) to withdraw the present Amendment, and move the reduction of the Vote by £2,000. I think my hon. Friend would, in that case, obtain more support than he is likely to get for the Amendment as it now stands.
  MR. CLANCY: At present Mr. Clutton receives more than £6,000 a-year.
  SIR JOSEPH M'KENNA: A portion of that sum, no doubt, is required for the payment of the staff; but I think, if the Vote were reduced as I suggest, Mr. Clutton would still receive ample remuneration for the services he performs. I would, therefore, ask my hon. Friend to withdraw his proposal for the reduction of the Vote by £4,000, in order to substitute £2,000.
  MR. MOLLOY: I will not prolong the discussion; but I will point out to the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury that the sum received by Mr. Clutton is more than the salary of a Cabinet Minister. The Secretary to the Treasury says that Mr. Clutton does not receive the whole of it, because he has to pay his staff. Now, all that the staff has to do for the State is to keep the accounts that relate to the collection of rents, and I am satisfied that Mr. Clutton could get all the assistance he requires for £500 or £600 a-year. The fact still remains that a very large sum of money is paid to this gentleman for duties in the performance of which he employs

  209
  only a small portion of his time. As a matter of fact, he actually receives a higher salary than the Prime Minister of this country.
  MR. BRADLAUGH: I am not able to suggest whether Mr. Clutton is well or ill-paid; but I think there is one thing in which the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury will agree, and in regard to which probably he or the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is now in his place, will give me some assurance. I hold that payment by poundage is a very bad mode of payment, and that it very often results in gross jobbery. Whatever is the right sum to be paid for the services rendered Mr. Clutton ought to receive; but, in order to prevent the abuses which may result from the system of payment by poundage, we ought to have some assurance from the Treasury that steps will be taken to terminate that bad system.
  MR. J. W. BARCLAY: I should like to know from the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury what extent of land belonging to the Crown is being farmed by the Commissioners of Woods and Forests without being let to tenants? I do not like to speak from memory; but I think there was a very considerable public clamour two or three years ago as to the excessive rents of the land belonging to the Woods and Forests. I cannot help thinking that it is an exceedingly bad system for the Government to keep the land in their own hands; because by that means it is producing no rent at all, and there is no land at the present moment in England which would not let for something or other.
  MR. JACKSON: There is no difference of opinion between the Commissioners of Woods and Forests and the hon. Member that it is exceedingly undesirable to have farms in hand. The farms which are under the charge of Colonel Kingscote comprise, I believe, upwards of 70,000 acres; and the amount of land now in hand which has been held by seven tenants, two of whom held less than 120 acres, altogether comprises 1,762 acres. The farms now are practically managed as private farms.
  MR. CLANCY: I desire to express personally my full sense of the courtesy of the Secretary to the Treasury. The hon. Gentleman's manner in this House is all we could desire; but I hope he
  210
  will forgive me for repeating again that I am not satisfied with the explanation he has given. I have already admitted my perfect satisfaction that there is to be a new system for the future; but what I want still to know is whether, with regard to the past, Mr. Clutton has surrendered his pass-books? To that question I have obtained no answer, and I understand the Secretary to the Treasury to inform the Committee that he can give no answer. I am very much inclined to accept the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for South Monaghan (Sir Joseph M'Kenna). I think that to cut off £4000 at one blow from Mr. Clutton might be too great a shock to so mighty a person, and I have no wish to hurt the susceptibilities of so important an individual. Perhaps, if £2,000 were taken off his income for next year, he would be induced hereafter to be more civil to his superiors, and probably he would give way on the first attack that might be made upon him by the Representatives of the Treasury. With that view, and considering also that the amount of poundage paid to this gentleman is out of all proportion to that which is paid to other Receivers, I will, if the Committee will allow me, withdraw the Motion for reducing the Vote by £4,000, and substitute a Motion to reduce it by £2,000.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Original Question again proposed.
  Motion made, and Question put,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £8,043, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of Her Majesty's Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues, and of the Office of Land Revenue Records and Inrolments."—(Mr. Clancy.)
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 73; Noes 149: Majority 76.—(Div. List, No. 23.)
  Original Question put, and agreed to.
  (2.) £21,059, to complete the sum for Works and Public Buildings Office.
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: This, I know, is an Office which is generally held to be beyond criticism; but in regard to its work this year I wish to ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman in charge of the Vote to explain how it is that certain items in-

  211
  serted in the Estimates for this year have not been submitted to the Committee? It will be in the recollection of the Committee that the first Votes we had to consider were, in accordance with a printed statement, circulated by the Treasury, and in that statement there was a Vote for the New Admiralty and War Office, and another Vote for Dover Harbour. When the Committee began its deliberations, we expected that those two Votes would, be put from the Chair; but they have been passed over, sub silentio, and the consequence was that a third Vote came on unexpectedly, and was passed without the discussion which would otherwise have taken place upon it. Now, Sir, the insertion of Votes of this kind for Services which do not, in reality, require any Vote of the sort is, at any rate, an unusual proceeding; and I should like to ask the First Commissioner of Works to explain the state of the case in regard to the Vote for the New Admiralty and War Office Buildings, and also the circumstances under which the Vote originally presented for Dover Harbour is not required?
  THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. PLUNKET): I think I can give the hon. Gentleman a satisfactory explanation of the matter. It is quite true that a Vote for the new Admiralty and War Office Buildings was originally inserted in the Estimates, and that now it is not brought forward. The reason of that change is that during the last Parliament a suggestion was made by my right hon. Friend who is now Secretary of State for War (Mr. W. H. Smith) that it was desirable to reconsider the plans for the Admiralty and War Office Buildings. That suggestion was approved of by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Sir William Harcourt); and accordingly it was afterwards proposed that a Committee should be appointed for the purpose of reconsidering the whole question, and such a Committee was nominated with the assent of the House. It was stated by my Predecessor (Lord Elgin) on the 27th of May, when a Vote on Account was taken, that nothing would be done beyond what was absolutely necessary in the way of demolition until Parliament had had an opportunity of reconsidering the matter, and until the Select Committee
  212
  had reported upon it. A further statement to that effect was made in this House by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the last Parliament. Under these circumstances, it would obviously not be proper to press the Vote. It is the intention of the Government to propose the appointment of the Committee to report upon the subject in the next Session as early as possible. I know nothing whatever as to the Estimate for Dover Harbour.
  THE CHAIRMAN: The question of Dover Harbour does not arise under this Vote.
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: The right hon. Gentleman has not been long in Office; but I should like him to give some promise that he will pay some attention to that melancholy subject to which attention has been called on more than one occasion—namely, the dying away of the trees in Kensington Gardens. I called the attention of the right hon. Gentleman's Predecessor to that matter. Things are now going from bad to worse; and, in these summer days, anyone who walks there for a little fresh air will find the trees still visibly dying. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give us some assurance that attention will be paid to the subject.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman propose to do anything in regard to the extension of Westminster Hall? It has been allowed to remain in the same condition now for some years.
  MR. PLUNKET: Yes, Sir; I have recently been over the ground, and I can assure the hon. Member that the works will be proceeded with at once.
  Vote agreed to.
  (3.) £10,000, to complete the sum for the Mercantile Marine Fund (Grant in Aid).
  (4.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £30,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for Her Majesty's Foreign and other Secret Services."
  MR. BRADLAUGH: I do not intend to do more now than express a hope that what the Government nave done in regard to the Secret Service

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  money charged upon the Consolidated Fund they will do next year in regard to this Vote. The saving to the Consolidated Fund appears to be a sum of more than £9,000 a-year, and it is reasonable to hope that some similar saving may be effected in this Vote; and that, instead of having a Secret Service Vote of £50,000 for the year, an Estimate may be brought forward for the various Departments, each Department stating the sum which it deems necessary for Secret Service. There would then no longer be a large sum which Parliament is unable to trace, even to any Department, or to know what becomes of it.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Lord RANDOLPH CHURCHILL): I wish to point out to the hon. Member that if Secret Service money be granted at all, it must be granted so that Parliament cannot trace it. It is a Vote granted by Parliament to Ministers for public purposes, as to which Parliament trusts absolutely to the discretion of Ministers; and it is granted on the distinct condition and understanding that the employment of the money shall be absolutely secret. Therefore, on that ground, I would object to the arrangement suggested by the hon. Member, that the sum expended by each Office should be placed upon the Estimates. I would object to it on the ground that by so placing it on the Estimates it would diminish the secrecy of the expenditure. If Parliament chooses to grant this money as Secret Service money, the expenditure of it must obviously be left to the Ministry. If you do not choose to grant Secret Service money that is quite a different thing. If the House of Commons choose to deprive the Ministry of the day of these funds, that will be a very serious step for the House of Commons to take; and certainly, if the money be not granted, I do not believe that in the present day the Government can be carried on, or that the Services could be provided for, unless Parliament granted very liberal Estimates. I think the hon. Member will admit that the Government have established a claim upon the House by altogether sweeping away the expenditure on account of Secret Service hitherto charged upon the Consolidated Fund, which, I thought, was an expenditure which could not be defended in modern times; but I do
  214
  hope that the Government, having shown that they are determined that Secret Service money shall be expended only in the interests of the State and for purposes Parliament controls, inquiry as to the details of expenditure will not be pressed.
  MR. BRADLAUGH: I desire to acknowledge, in the fullest manner, the concession made by the Government in reference to the charge upon the Consolidated Fund. I desire, on the part of Radicals, to acknowledge that in the frankest manner. But what the noble Lord now says in defence of the Vote is precisely what used to be said in defence of the very expenditure the noble Lord has abandoned. I cannot help thinking that the same kind of consideration arises here. There are no means of knowing how this money is expended; and it appears from answers given by witnesses examined by the Public Accounts Committee that it has sometimes been used to supplement payments in the shape of salaries.
  LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL: That was many years ago.
  MR. BRADLAUGH: Yes; but the expenditure was secret still; and perhaps a more acute Public Accounts Committee may extract similar information. While I admit that the noble Lord has been frank in recognizing the distinction between this Vote and the charge on the Consolidated Fund I shall be compelled to divide the House against the Vote.
  Sir GEORGE CAMPBELL: I am not suprised that the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Bradlaugh) should have called attention to this Vote; but I do think that in a great Empire like this it is quite impossible for the Public Service to be carried on without the employment of Secret Service money. Nevertheless, the abstraction of £10,000 a-year from the Consolidated Fund for that purpose was an abuse, and I am glad that the system has been abandoned. I think the Committee ought to rest satisfied after the stop which has been put to the spending of Secret Service money for electioneering purposes. This sum of £50,000 is expended on the responsibility of Her Majesty's Ministers; and all that can be required by this House is a statement from Ministers on honour that the money has been expended for the Secret Service for which it was required.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: A good deal of Secret Service money spent by the Foreign Office is not really Secret Service money in any sense of the word, but is expended in giving pensions to the widows of persons who have been employed by the Government. I think it would be better to separate the two items—namely, the money really employed for Secret Service purposes, and that which is given away in pensions. I am not asserting for a moment that these pensions to widows and others who have rendered service to the Government ought not to be paid; but still they are not Secret Service money, and it appears to me far more desirable that the Government should ask for a certain sum for pensions to widows and others, where there is no fund specially available for them, instead of putting it down for Secret Service money.
  MR. SEXTON: I wish to ask if there is any truth in the report that the Government have employed a shorthand writer, together with a detective, to follow Mr. Michael Davitt on his public tour in the United States; and, if so, whether the pay of those individuals is provided for under the head of Secret Service money?
  LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL: The hon. Member must know that no Minister has ever answered a question with regard to the expenditure of Secret Service money, either negatively or affirmatively; and I cannot depart from that practice. With regard to the employment of a shorthand writer, I have no information on the subject, neither has my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 159; Noes 54: Majority 105.—Div. List, No. 24.)
  (5.) £3,393, to complete the sum for the Secretary for Scotland's Office.
  MR. J. W. BARCLAY: I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland (Mr. A. J. Balfour) what authority he exercises over the Local Boards sitting in Edinburgh? It was one of the principal reasons for the appointment of a Secretary for Scotland that these Boards were practically irresponsible, and it was hoped that when the appoint-
  216
  ment was made the Minister would be able to exercise some authority over them. The Boards to which I refer are the Fishery Board, the Lunacy Commission, the Poor Law Board, and the Board of Supervision. It has often been stated in this House that none of these Boards were responsible. Very considerable complaints have been made from time to time regarding the interference of the Board of Supervision in the administration of local affairs; and we know quite well that the Board practically consists of only one individual, the Chairman. The Board of Lunacy and the Fishery Board also require looking after; and I shall be glad to hear from the right hon. Gentleman whether he is in a position to exercise control over these Boards, so that he may be responsible in this House for their doings. It will be a very great satisfaction to the people of Scotland to know that the administration of affairs relating to Scotland is in the hands and under the control of a responsible Minister. If the right hon. Gentleman has not yet sufficient authority under the Act of Parliament, I hope that he will direct his attention to the subject, with a view to bringing the Local Boards in Scotland under his control. I believe this is the desire of the people of Scotland; and I am sure, if he succeeds in accomplishing this object, he will have done a great deal to justify the creation of his Office. I should also like to know whether the right hon. Gentleman exercises as much authority and control over the Boards in Scotland as the Local Government Board does over the various Local Boards in England?
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: My hon. Friend the Member for Forfarshire has put a very important question to the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland; and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to give a satisfactory answer with regard to the Fishery Board, Lunacy Board, Poor Law Board, and the Board of Supervision. With reference to the other question asked by my hon. Friend, as to the extent of the control over the Local Boards in Edinburgh, I think the right hon. Gentleman would be in a much better position if he had that control in Scotland which the Home Secretary and the Local Government Board together have in England. Now, Sir,

  217
  coining to the establishment of this Office—the Office of the Secretary for Scotland—I find we have the Secretary with a salary of £2,000 a-year; we have the Permanent Under Secretary, with a salary of £1,500 a-year, and £500, the portion of his pension in respect of service in the Education Department. We have then an Assistant Under Secretary, with a salary of £920. But under these three great Officers we have only three clerks. It would, therefore, seem that this Office has a very large head, but a very attenuated body. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will see that it is much better that he should have all these Scotch Offices and Local Boards under his control.
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR): The hon. Gentleman (Sir George Campbell) has asked me the nature of the powers exercised over the Scotch Local Boards. The authority I exercise over these Boards is precisely the same as that which was exercised by the Lord Advocate under the law which existed before my Office was constituted by Parliament; and in answer to the hon. Member for Forfarshire (Mr. Barclay) I have to say that the authority I exercise over these Boards is as great as that formerly exercised by the Secretary of State for the Home Department here. The Statute by which my Office was created simply transferred to me the powers which the Secretary of State for the Home Department possesses. These powers, I admit, are not very great in extent; indeed, the control I have over any separate Department is very small; but I am not sure that that is a thing wholly to be regretted. The Scottish Boards are very peculiar institutions, and there is nothing analogous to them in England. They have worked well, and so long as they work well we are enabled through them to avoid undue centralization; and, therefore, I do not think it would be consistent with the ordinary rules of administration and legislation in favour in this country that we should, in deference to theory, abolish institutions which work well in practice. The hon. Gentleman said the Board of Supervision was complained of in Scotland because of its arbitrary interference with local affairs; but I would remind the hon. Member that the
  218
  powers exercised by the Board of Supervision are as nothing compared with the powers exercised in England by the Local Government Board. When I first went to the Local Government Board about a year and a-half ago I was astonished at the minute supervision and control which that Board exercises over everything connected with the Poor Law Boards and other local institutions in England. There is nothing like that in Scotland; and so long as we get on without that control I do not think we ought to regard it as necessary. With regard to the Fishery Board and the Board of Lunacy, the work in those Departments is very great, and only one or two members of those Boards are paid for their work, the other assistance being given gratuitously; and it should be borne in mind that neither the Board of Supervision, nor any other Department, can altogether avoid complaints, sometimes just and sometimes unjust. For my own part, I do not think we Scotchmen have serious reason to be discontented with the system which already exists. Whether it will be modified by the Government bringing in another Local Government Bill is not settled. The hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell) asked me whether I can say conscientiously that I have earned my pay. Well, Sir, I have not had a long opportunity of studying that question; and I do not know, if I came to an unfavourable conclusion with regard to it, that I should care to confide my opinion to my hon. Friend. But I must say that the duties of the Scotch Office are not so insignificant as the hon. Member apparently supposes, because, as Secretary for Scotland, I am not only at the head of the general administration of the country, but also, as Vice President of the Council, I am at the head of the Education Department. These two Offices together may well prevent the duties of the Secretary of Scotland being those of a sinecurist.
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: I simply expressed my surprise that there were three heads of the Office and only three clerks.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The hon. Gentleman commented on the high pay of the two head permanent officials in the Scotch Office. He said one of them received £2,000 a-year. That is true;

  219
  but he does not receive that as Under Secretary for Scotland; he receives only £1,500 a-year in that capacity. Owing to the fact that Sir Francis Sandford is the Permanent Under Secretary for Scotland, we have not only secured the services of one of the very ablest public officials, but we have also saved the country a large amount in hard cash; because Sir Francis Sandford is entitled to a large pension, the whole of which he does not draw, so long as he occupies the post of Permanent Under Secretary. The hon. Gentleman appears to me to think that you should not have highly paid officers at the head of a Department unless you have a large number of clerks under them. I cannot agree with that. The duties may not be so heavy and so numerous as to require a large staff of clerks; but in this case they are of so important a character that the gentlemen at the head of the Office must be equal in position and character to those of any other Office at Whitehall. Therefore, I say that these gentlemen eminently deserve the salaries paid to them; and I do not think we could secure the kind of men we want for less money.
  MR. J. W. BARCLAY: I do not desire that the Secretary for Scotland should have any more interference with local affairs than there is at present. What we want is a responsible Secretary for Scotland, and not an irresponsible Board as in Edinburgh. Complaints have been made as to undue interference on the part of the Board of Supervision in Edinburgh, and in regard to the other Boards I shall have more to say later on. I desire that the supervision of the Boards should be exercised by someone who is responsible for it, and not by an irresponsible person in Edinburgh. The Board of Supervision, as I have said, consists only of the Chairman. ["No, no!"] The Lord Advocate expresses some doubt about that. I recollect that a Return was made of the attendance of the Board, and we found that seldom anyone besides the Chairman attended. When the Chairman alone was present it was called a Committee, and the Committee had the full powers of the Board. This question has been discussed in the House for many years. The Board has been unsatisfactory, and is unsatisfactory now; and I want the Secretary for
  220
  Scotland to be responsible for the Board of Supervision, and also for the Fishery Board. I think that was what the Scottish people asked for when a Secretary was appointed for Scotland. I invite the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to these subjects, and to say that it would be better to have an improved control by the Secretary for Scotland, who is responsible to this House.
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: I have known Sir Francis Sandford all my life, and I am aware that we could not have a more valuable public servant; but it does seem to me, from the very modesty and slenderness of the Staff, that there must be very little detailed work in the Office, with the exception of the educational work. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Forfarshire that it would be desirable for the Secretary for Scotland to exercise a more complete control over the Scotch Boards, which I agree are unpopular in Scotland, and centralize too much. We want a controlling power over them; and in so far as they are not responsible to the Secretary for Scotland they are not responsible to Parliament. I think these Boards should be made over to the Department of the Secretary for Scotland, in order that he may have full working power in connection with them.
  Vote agreed to.
  (6.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £2,755, granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of the Queen's and Lord Treasurer's Remembrancer in Exchequer, Scotland, of certain Officers in Scotland, and other Charges formerly on the Hereditary Revenue."
  MR. LABOUCHERE: I observe in this Vote a charge of £500 for the Lyon King-at-Arms, and also a charge of £75 for three heralds at £25 each, and three pursuivants at £16 13 s. 4d. each. Now, I have asked many times in this House what is the use of these heralds, pursuivants, and Kings-at-Arms; but I have never had a reasonable reply. I understand the duties of the Lyon King-at-Arms is to provide pedigrees and arms for those who have neither pedigrees nor arms. I am told by an hon. Member from Scot-

  221
  land that he pursues a species of touting system. An hon. Friend of mine received a letter from the Lyon King-at-Arms, not long ago, offering to provide him with a pedigree at a reasonable price if he was ready to pay for it. Of course, my hon. Friend being a sensible man, entirely declined to have that pedigree forced upon him. Then there was another case of a gentleman from Scotland having a shield before his name in Dodd's Parliamentary Guide, on which a wild animal was exhibited; immediately he got a letter from the Lyon King-at-Arms, asking him what he meant by exhibiting this animal on the shield, and stating that he ought to pay a sum of money and have a genuine coat of arms. I may be told that this office pays for itself. That makes the case even worse. There are certain things which are immoral and ought not to be done. This is one of them, and we ought not to provide a salary for a Lyon King-at-Arms and persons connected with him, in order that he should foist off upon poor, simple-minded, ignorant Scotsmen pedigrees and arms for a small fee. I regard the whole thing as utterly immoral; and I object to the State having anything to do with these tomfooleries. By all means, let us do away with these heralds and pursuivants and this Lyon King-at-Arms. I shall divide the House against this Vote. I may not, perhaps, get a majority—I never do; but I shall give hon. Members an opportunity of protesting against this ridiculous office. If we do not continue to protest against the Lyon King-at-Arms we shall, perhaps, be called upon hereafter to pay £500 a-year for a Unicorn King-at-Arms.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £2,125, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of the Queen's and Lord Treasurer's Remembrancer in Exchequer, Scotland, of certain Officers in Scotland, and other Charges formerly on the Hereditary Eevenue."—(Mr. Labouchere.)
  MR. HUNTER: Can the right hon. Gentleman inform me what was the amount of fees received in the office during the year 1885?
  SIR HERBERT MAXWELL (A LORD of the TREASURY) (Wigton): The amount of fees received last year was
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  £500, and the same amount is calculated as the receipts this year. The fines and forfeitures in the Justiciary and Sheriff Courts which come to the office of Lyon King-at-Arms amount to £4,500, making in all £5,000, against a charge for the Lyon Office of £6,425. The cost of the Lyon Office is not, as was stated by the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere), £500, but a little over £160.
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL:: I agree with the hon. Member for Northampton that the office of Lyon King-at-Arms is a very ridiculous one, and I shall vote with him for the reduction of the Vote. I shall ask the support of the hon. Member in opposition to some other items in the Vote to which I object—namely, those for the Law Agent and Clerk to the Bible Board, £180; Queen's Plate, £198, run for at the Caledonian Hunt.
  SIR HERBERT MAXWELL: With regard to the Bible Board, the position is one which can be defended on the score of its cheapness, the annual cost being only £180. At the same time, its duties are not unimportant, inasmuch as it guarantees the text of every Bible in Scotland. The members of the Board perform their work gratuitously, and the £180 to which the hon. Gentleman takes exception is really paid to the Lord Advocate and Solicitor General. The offices of Majesty's Limner and Historiographer are the sole remnants of the ancient Monarchy of Scotland, and as they cost so very little I think they must be considered a very cheap memorial. With regard to the money voted for the Queen's Plates, I would ask the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy to compare the very modest amount for the Queen's Plates in Scotland with the sums voted for them in England and Ireland.
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: I have always held that two blacks do not make a white; and I object to the Queen's Plates in England as well as in Scotland. With regard to the Bible Board, I should have thought that the correctness of the text of the Bible might very well have been left to the printer. I am under the impression that not long ago an august body found that the text of the Bible was very impure and incorrect.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment, in order to in-

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  clude, in another Amendment which I will then move, the items to which my hon. Friend objects. The amount of the reduction I shall propose would be £1,200, and my Amendment would then include the items for the Bible Board, the Queen's Limner and Historiographer, and the Queen's Plates. It is very gratifying to find this feeling of economy amongst Scotch Members. I have generally found, in moving such a reduction, that Scotchmen have been inclined to think that all is grist that comes to the Scotch mill. I have, in this House, opposed Scotch Votes, and I have found even economical Scotchmen indignantly protesting against anything which the Saxon gave being cut off. They have generally acted on the principle of taking all they can get. I include the Historiographer and the Limner all the more readily for the explanation which the hon. Gentleman (Sir Herbert Maxwell) has given. The hon. Gentleman says that these are remnants of the Scotch Monarchy. The Scottish Monarchy has disappeared entirely. From his statement one would imagine that the hon. Gentleman was a Separatist. I do not see why we should pay salaries to two gentlemen of £184 and £97 respectively, merely to perpetuate the recollection of the existence of the Scotch Monarchy. The Scotch Monarchy is entirely merged into the English Monarchy. [Sir GEORGE CAMPBELL: No, no!] I see that I am now treading on dangerous ground, and I will, therefore, not continue my observations on this point; but simply ask leave to withdraw my Motion for the purpose of moving to reduce the Vote by £1,289.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Original Question again proposed.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £1,466, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of the Queen's and Lord Treasurer's Remembrancer in Exchequer, Scotland, of certain Offices in Scotland, and other Charges formerly on the Hereditary Revenue."—(Mr. Labouchere.)
  MR. JORDAN: If there be not a single Bible Board connected with England and Ireland, I do not see why we should pay for a Bible Board for Scotland, except on the
  224
  ground that the Scotch people are much more religious than the people of the other two countries. With regard to the offices of Queen's Limner and Historiographer, I understand that these are remnants of a past Monarchy, and on that ground I think they ought to be abolished. Finally, as to the Queen's Plates, if there ought to be Queen's Plates, by all means let them be Queen's Plates in reality, but do not pay for them out of the taxpayers' money.
  MR. CLANCY: I shall support the Motion of the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere). I do not support the hon. Member's Motion from any desire to cut down Scotch Votes, because I do not think that the people of Scotland get their fair share as it is; but I am perfectly prepared to vote for a similar reduction in the case of Ireland, and when we reach the point I shall propose to reduce the Estimate by the item of the charge for the Ulster King-at-Arms. I think, however, it would be more satisfactory if the hon. Member would exclude from his Motion the charge for the Bible Board. For my part, I am certainly in favour of retaining that particular portion of the Vote, because I do not think that a provision of this kind, tending, as many consider, to the well-being of religion, ought to be excluded. I am, therefore, willing to vote with the hon. Member for Northampton, provided the charge for the Bible Board is excluded from the proposed reduction.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: I am unable to make that alteration. I must point out to the hon. Member that this Vote for the Bible Board has nothing to do with religion. The printers' reader takes a Bible of any particular edition, and sees that the words are the same as in the orthodox edition. The same sort of thing goes on in every printing office. The Law Agent is simply an idle gentleman who takes the salary, and employs a reader to do the work.
  MR. HUNTER: I should like the Government to tell us who is the Historiographer, and who is the Limner.
  MR. ANDERSON: Can the hon. Baronet tell us what is the arrangement with regard to the Law Agent and the Bible Board?
  SIR HERBERT MAXWELL: The original arrangement was that this Vote

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  should be omitted from the Estimates for 1884–5. I am informed that a settlement of the question is at present pending; and it is to be considered whether the duties shall continue to be retained by the Office, or be transferred to the Office of the Secretary for Scotland.
  MR. J. W. BARCLAY: I should certainly think that the Secretary for Scotland, with a printer's reader, could do this work without the assistance of a lawyer. I understand that the effect of this arrangement is simply to create a monopoly in the book market. I suggest that the Secretary for Scotland might, with advantage, devote some of his attention to these matters, which take up a great deal of time year after year, and which, I think, could be very easily put on a satisfactory footing.
  MR. O'HEA: I shall support the Motion of the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere); and I shall do so on the ground that I think a case has been abundantly made out on behalf of the taxpayers generally. These items ought not to be allowed, on the ground of economy, to remain on the Estimates, unless they are, at any rate, very considerably reduced. The remarks of the hon. Gentleman have been perfectly satisfactory to me, and I think they ought also to be so to the Committee. I altogether object to the extravagance of the sums proposed to be voted for this obsolete system. I understand that the function of the Bible Board has been to preserve the Bible in its condition of orthodoxy. Years ago there was a considerable outcry, and that outcry had the effect of extinguishing altogether in Ireland the circulation of Bibles purporting to be Douay Bibles, but in reality Bibles published by a proselytizing Protestant Society in England. The Catholic Episcopacy are quite able to attend to their own interests in this matter; and I think that the Scotch Presbyterians, in like manner, should themselves look after what they conceive to be the purity of their Bibles, and protect their own interests. An item which seems to me to be an unnecessary extravagance is that for the Queen's Limner and the Queen's Historiographer. If anybody wishes to make himself acquainted with the history of Scotland, he will find no difficulty in tracing that history down to the present time from the very earliest
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  period of antiquity—from the very era of fable—by going to the public libraries and consulting their comprehensive histories. I, therefore, fail to see why we want this item for a Royal Historiographer.[Cries of "Divide!"] Even the cacoëthes loquendi of hon. Members opposite will not prevent me from making such observations as I deem expedient. As to the item for Her Majesty's Limner, it is to be supposed, and to be hoped, that Scotland possesses picture galleries in addition to libraries and museums—that it possesses portraits of celebrities who figured in the Monarchical times of Scotch history; and now that photography has been brought to such perfection, if anyone wants to have a copy of any of these pictures, he can get a photograph of it for 1s. I think, therefore, that this item for Her Majesty's Limner might be very well dispensed with. I make these observations purely on the ground of economy, as I think this portion of the Estimates should be very considerably reduced.
  MR. HARRIS: I did not intend to take part in this discussion, though, indeed, I have felt for a long time that the Scotch people had been making fools of themselves with regard to this Limner and Historiographer. Next to this form of humbug, I think they are very much making fools of themselves about the Bible.
  THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member will please address himself to the Vote, which is a financial question.
  MR. HARRIS: I notice that in the debate on the Crofters Bill—["Order!"] —the right hon. and learned Gentleman the present Lord Advocate recommended that the only concession which should be made to the crofters should be to allow them to go to Manitoba, Kamschatka, or other places where they would be allowed to take their Bibles with them. Well, however valuable the Bible may be to the Scotch crofters—
  THE CHAIRMAN: I must request the hon. Gentleman to attend to my advice, and to address himself to the Vote.
  MR. HARRIS: Well, Sir, allow me to say that I support the hon. Member who has brought forward this proposition.
  MR. HUNTER: We, as yet, have no information as to who this Limner and Historiographer are.
  SIR HERBERT MAXWELL: The Historiographer is Dr. Skene, a very well known gentleman in Scotland, and the Limner is Sir Noel Paton.
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: Does the Limner supply any pictures for the money?
  MR. JORDAN: Is there a similar Vote for Ireland or England?
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 59; Noes 141: Majority 82.—(Div. List, No. 25.)
  Original Question put, and agreed to.
  (7.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £12,780, he granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Fishery Board in Scotland and for Grants in Aid of Piers or Quays."
  MR. J. W. BARCLAY: When the Vote on Account on the last occasion, was before the House, I took the opportunity of calling attention to the constitution of the Scotch fishery Board, and to some of its proceedings. The right hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. J. B. Balfour) who then spoke for the Secretary for Scotland told us that everyone in Scotland was satisfied with it. But if the Secretary for Scotland had the advantage of representing a Scotch constituency he would find that that is not the case. All round the Coast of Scotland there are general complaints as to the constitution of the Board and its working. The people think it is practically worthless. There is no one practically acquainted with sea fishing on this Board. I have nothing whatever to say against the scientific portion of the Board. I have read, with great interest, their last Report, and I think the scientific side of the Board is well represented, and that it has done as much as could be expected in the direction of scientific investigation. But the fishermen complain, and I think with a great deal of justice, that there is no one on the Board practically acquainted with fisheries who can be of assistance to them on fishing questions, procure for them the information they ought to possess, and guard their interests in every way. We had a very good example of the acting Board, on a recent occasion, in an attempt to carry out the law
  228
  with respect to restrictions on trawling. In that effort the Board defined certain areas, in accordance with the powers contained in a recent Act, one of these areas being on the Coast of Fife, and the other along the Aberdeenshire Coast. There was not much complaint about the Firth of Forth; but the fishermen in Forfarshire and Aberdeenshire complained very strongly that the areas there laid off were altogether inadequate in extent to answer properly the questions which the Board proposed to decide as to the habits of the fish and the effect of trawling on the food supply of the country. A deputation of fishermen came up to London, at great expense, both of time and money—a considerable number of them—and they stated their case to Lord Dalhousie, then Secretary for Scotland. As might have been anticipated, however, Lord Dalhousie did not feel himself justified in overruling the judgment of the Fishery Board. But I think that those present on that occasion, who were disinterested and took an impartial view of the case, were satisfied that the fishermen had made out their case, and that they had been put to the trouble and expense of coming to London unnecessarily. They saw, in fact, that though the fishermen had a good case, the result of their interview was a foregone conclusion. That is one illustration of the disadvantage the fishermen experience through having no fishermen on the Board, who would be able to keep the Board right on matters such as the area which should be allowed to test the effect of trawling, and would be able to satisfy the men that their interests were duly protected. Another important question with which the Board deals, I am sorry to say, in an unsatisfactory manner is that of fishing harbours. I think that a large proportion, if not the whole, of the money which has been spent by the Board on harbours has been practically thrown away. The last experiment was the making of a harbour at Ness Point in Skye, and that harbour has now silted up with sand, a contingency which, I am informed, was foreseen by the fishermen and foretold to the engineer of the Board. I do not wish to say a word against the engineers to the Board, who are gentlemen of high reputation. We know that all Government officials, when their

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  doings are discussed in this House, are said to have a high reputation, and to be thoroughly qualified for the performance of their duties; but I think it would be much better for the Board to have an engineer exclusively at their own service, and not to have to take professional advice such as that of the Messrs. Stevenson. It has been strongly represented to me by those able to judge of this matter that it would be much more to the advantage of the Fishery Board if they employed their own engineers. Then I think the Board are in the habit of spending far too large sums of money on one harbour. The small amount of the grant was not intended to be accumulated in order that it should be spent in one large sum on one harbour, but to give assistance in comparatively small sums to many small fishing villages round the Coasts. I have myself brought under the notice of the Fishery Board a fishing port on the Forfarshire coast, where, I think, a very small expenditure may be made with great advantage to the fishermen and to the development of the fishing, and it was a case where arrangements might be made whereby the local proprietor would cooperate with the Fishery Board in order to produce the desired improvements. I think it would be very desirable if we could have a Return placed before us of how the money has been expended for some years past. [Sir GEORGE BALFOUR (Kincardine): We had that.] These are all points to which I wish the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland would direct his attention. I would request him to bestow his attention particularly upon the constitution of the Board. Since I called attention to this subject in, I think, June last, one of the Members of the Board has resigned. I believe the Members are appointed for five years, and that the period of retirement of the other Members has not yet arrived; so that it will, of course, be impossible for the Secretary of State to exercise any active interference with the other appointments until the expiration of the term of Office. But I desire the right hon. Gentleman to express an opinion in favour of appointing to the present vacancy some practical fisherman—some person who is really acquainted with fishing, and who will keep the Board right on these matters. Several Members on the Board are, no
  230
  doubt, very well acquainted with salmon fishing; but I do not think it can be said that any single Member has any practical acquaintance with sea fishing. I trust the right hon. Gentleman will be prepared to use his utmost endeavours to increase the efficiency of this Board in the filling up of the existing vacancy by a practical fisherman. I can assure him that there are many fishermen all round the Coast who have taken a very great interest in the subject, and that the universal opinion at the present time among them is that for their purposes the existence of the Fishery Board, as at present constituted, is practically useless.
  MR. MARJORIBANKS: My hon. Friend who has just sat down (Mr. Barclay) has referred to three special points with regard to the action of the Scotch Fishery Board. The first of these three is with regard to the constitution of the Board. I think the hon. Member is rather unfair on the Board, for he gave us to understand that, as at present constituted, it is thoroughly worthless. I do not agree with the hon. Member in that case. As reconstructed, the Board has proved itself an exceedingly useful body; and its Reports, issued during the last four years, are exceedingly valuable. The work the Board has done in the collection of useful information in regard to sea fishing, and as to the way in which it may be better conducted, and as to the amount of fish caught at different places, is very valuable, and will be the foundation for much that will be very useful in the future. Then, again, I think the hon. Gentleman should remember that this Board, which carries on its work so well, is an unpaid Board. The Chairman is paid, and the Secretary receives a salary, and I believe that a scientific gentleman—Professor Cottar Ewart—also gets some remuneration; but as for the others they give their valuable work and services for nothing. Moreover, I think they are much better qualified to deal with the subject than the hon. Gentleman seems inclined to admit. As to the desirability of introducing some practical fishermen on the Board I entirely sympathize with the hon. Gentleman, so far as thinking that the Board is undoubtedly weak in this respect—that there is no one on it to give expression to the views of the

  231
  fishermen themselves. But I doubt very much whether it would be possible to appoint a practical fisherman on the Board. I want to know, if you did appoint such a man, how he could give up his time and his occupation of fishing and go to live in Edinburgh, in order to attend to the business of the Board? I do not think that any fisherman of my hon. Friend's constituency would like to be constantly attending the Board. Still, I do think the Board might very well be strengthened by the addition to its Members of some gentleman who is thoroughly acquainted with all the views of the Scotch fishermen, and I recommend that consideration to my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland (Mr. A. J. Balfour). Now, as to the question of trawling, let me, first of all, say, as a Member of the Trawling Commission, that our recommendation that power should be given to the Scotch Fishery Board to stop trawling in the territorial waters was something in the nature of a compromise between the opinions of the different Members of the Commission. I think the far better plan would have been to have altogether prohibited trawling in all territorial waters. That might have been done without injury to the trawling industry, and it would have been found of the greatest use and service to that very class of fishermen who are least able to go far to sea, and who carry on their arduous profession under most difficult conditions—I mean especially the very young and the very old fishermen, men who, perhaps, are possessed of only a small boat, who cannot get far out to sea, but who manage to eke out a living by fishing close to shore. These are the men with whom the steam trawlers, particularly those on the Coasts of Scotland, most interfere. But another thing to be considered is this—that the amount of fish caught by trawlers within the territorial limits of any coast is infinitesimal. Trawlers, as a rule, are well-found vessels, well able to go to sea, and well able to carry on their work. I need hardly say that a vessel which drags a heavy trawl behind her should be a strong vessel, and a vessel that will stand a considerable amount of knocking about at sea. Then, it seems to me that the conduct of the Fishery Board itself, in respect to our recommendation, was probably also the result of a compromise. They have done some-
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  thing rather less than we intended should be done when we included the recommendation I have mentioned in our Report. The Board have taken it as if the recommendation was purely for the purpose of an experiment; but everyone who reads the Report will see that that is not so, but that it was recommended the Board should be given full and complete power to prohibit trawling within the three-mile limit all round Scotland. I think it is exceedingly unfortunate that when this recommendation was adopted in the Act of 1885 the Fishery Board did not extend the area of prohibited water; at any rate, they might have extended it to the Moray Firth. It must be remembered that on the Coast of Scotland the places within the three-mile limit where trawlers can come are few; it is essentially a rocky coast, and, excepting in a very few places, it is impossible to carry on trawling at all. My hon. Friend the Member for Forfarshire proceeded to deal with the harbour question, and to find considerable fault with the Scotch Fishery Board with regard to its action in connection with the harbour grant. Well, now, it is hardly fair to blame the present Board; and in regard to the old Board I must say that, in my opinion, its administration of this fund ever since it was granted in 1829 has proved most unsatisfactory. As a matter of fact, the Scotch Fishery Board between 1829 and 1882 dealt with no less than 28 harbours on the Coast of Scotland. Since then, of course, some others have been dealt with. If my memory serves me, the amount of public money spent on the 28 harbours between 1829 and 1882 was £149,000, and the money raised in the localities during the same time amounted to something like £71,000; in all, something like £250,000 sterling was spent on those harbours. Of that £250,000 sterling, £140,000 was spent on two harbours alone—namely, £60,000 on Dunbar Harbour, and £80,000 on Anstruther Harbour. Now, what is the result of this expenditure of money? Why, that of all these harbours on the Coast of Scotland, there is not a single one which an ordinary big fishing boat can enter at all states of the tide; indeed, there is hardly a single one which is not absolutely dry at low water. That is not at all a satisfactory state of things. The first requirement of a fishing harbour is

  233
  that it can be entered by fishing boats at all states of the tide. The very least water that there should be at low water is 10 feet. Now, I quite admit that there is a grievance with regard to the engineers. The Fishery Board refuse to consider, or to help, any harbour, the plan of which is not drawn by their own engineer. The result of this is that every authority who is going to make a harbour instantly applies to this one engineer, or one firm of engineers, for the plans, in the expectation that in some way or other they may get helped by the Fishery Board. In that way the whole of the harbour business of the Coast of Scotland is practically thrown into the hands of one firm of engineers, who assist the Board in arriving at the conclusion which harbour they ought to make, and how the harbours are to be inspected whilst they are being made. That, I think, is an unsatisfactory state of things. My own idea is that it would be far better if the engineer employed by the Fishery Board to help them to arrive at a decision with regard to any particular harbour were specially appointed, and had nothing to say to them with regard to the plans of the harbours which are to be made. The preparation of the plans should be open to all engineers, and any harbour engineer's plans should be equally considered by the Board. Then, my hon. Friend (Mr. J. W. Barclay) alluded to the surplus from the herring brand fees. The Committee on the Herring Brand was, I believe, the first Committee of this House I had the honour of sitting on; and the recommendation we made was that any surplus from the fees should be handed over to the Scotch Fishery Board to use in any such a way as it might think fit, either for promoting harbours, for improving telegraphic communication, or for other purposes. That has been done since. If my hon. Friend refers to the Estimate, he will see that this surplus has been paid over to the Board, and that the way in which it has been expended is also accounted for.
  MR. HUNTER: I am anxious to press on the attention of the Government one point only, and that is the constitution of the Fishery Board. The fishermen on the Coast of Scotland feel it to be a very great grievance that there are no fishermen upon this Board. It is a Board which is constituted of
  234
  three persons, who hold their offices under an Act of Parliament—these are three Sheriffs—and of six persons who were appointed in 1882, whose term of office expires in 1887. It is, therefore, important that the Government should take the question of the reconstitution of the Board into consideration without delay. Now, Sir, the Chairman of the Board is the only Member who is paid, and he is paid a salary of £800 a-year. Sir Thomas Boyd is a member of a well-known firm of printers in Edinburgh. He belongs to the Edinburgh clique, which has always managed to fall into the patronage of the Liberal Government; and he possessed the two indispensable qualifications of office under the Liberal Government. First of all, he knew absolutely nothing of the subject with which he had to deal; and, secondly, he had conspicuously failed to render any service to the Party which was so anxious to render him service in return. When they gave £800 a-year as salary to a gentleman who knew nothing whatever about fishing, it was reasonable to suppose that the Government would try to make up for the deficiency by appointing some gentlemen as Members of the Fishery Board who knew something about fishing. But they appointed two or three landed proprietors, one or two of whom are well acquainted with salmon fishing. I do not object to there being gentlemen upon the Board who are acquainted with salmon fishing; but I think it is most important that the sea-fishing industry should be represented on the Board. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Berwickshire (Mr. Marjoribanks) has said that fishermen are not rich men, and cannot afford to give their time to the duty of the Board; but that is a problem which could be very easily solved. All that is necessary is to take £200 off the salary of the Chairman, and expend it in paying the expenses of the fishermen who may be appointed to the Board. The salary of the Chairman is fixed on the amplest scale. I find that it amounts to £37 for every Board meeting. There are very few Chairmen or Directors of Companies who are so well paid for the services they render to their Companies. With the preparation of the statistics and the conduct of scientific investigations the Chairman has nothing to do; there is an abundant staff to

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  attend to these things; and, therefore, I beg to move that the Chairman's salary be reduced by £200, in order to provide the means of paying the expenses of fishermen who may be appointed Members of the Board.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum not exceeding £12,580, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Fishery Board in Scotland and for Grants in Aid of Piers or Quavs."—(Mr. Hunter.)
  MR. P. MCDONALD: I desire to say a few words on the subject raised by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Forfarshire (Mr. J. W. Barclay). I think that, in the first place, I ought to congratulate my Scotch Friends upon the very creditable condition of the Scotch fisheries; the creditable condition compared with that of the Irish fisheries. In respect to the question dwelt upon at length by the hon. Member for Forfarshire, I find from the Report of the Scotch Fishery Board for 1885, page 333, that 653,425 barrels of herrings were branded in that year—an increase over the previous year of 182,429 barrels. The Board deemed it of importance to call attention to the fact that the demand for branded herrings continues to increase. In 1859, the year in which 3s. 4d. per barrel was charged for branding, the number of barrels branded was 156,676; in 1869, or 10 years later, the number had increased to 244,000; in 1879 it was 342,000; and last year the number had increased, to 653,425 barrels. There has thus been a continual and gradual increase, which proves very conclusively the value of the system of branding. The Board, in their Report, also pointed out that the great bulk of the branded herrings are sent to the Continent of Europe. They consider that the figures I have quoted afford most gratifying proof of the high and growing estimation in which the brand is held. The Commission which sat in 1846, and upon whose recommendation the system of branding was adopted, estimated that the fees ought to realize £3,500 a-year; but from the Report we have now in our hands we find not that that sum ought to be realized, but that the large and respectable amount
  236
  of £11,488 has been received. Evidently, the increase in the amount of fees must be proportionate to the increased value that is attached to the branding. It is quite clear that the purchaser does regard the brand as some guarantee of the genuineness or soundness of the fish. The Report goes on to say—
  "It may be here mentioned that the Board continues to do everything in its power to maintain the high character which the brand deserves."
  Why are we not given the brand in Ireland? If it be good for Scotland it ought to be good for Ireland. If the brand is so advantageous, as I think I have proved it is, by all means let our Fishery Board, if Fishery Board we can call it, adopt the brand, and benefit the Irish fisheries in like way. It may be said—I believe it has been said on previous occasions—that the Irish fishermen do not demand the brand. But I, as the Representative of a constituency which is bounded very largely by the Coast, ask, on behalf of the fishermen of Ireland, to have the brand applied to Ireland, and I believe I shall be joined in that request by a great number of my Friends around me. I maintain that a Government which professes to deal equally with England, Ireland, and Scotland, must grant to Ireland that which I have proved to be so beneficial to Scotland. I congratulate my Scotch Friends on the success which one of their industries has attained, and I hope they will persevere in their endeavours to secure still further and greater advantages and the removal of any defects that may exist. My sympathies are entirely with the Scotch and Welsh as well as the Irish fishermen. I shall, therefore, vote for the Amendment of my hon. Friend (Mr. Hunter) merely as a protest against the fact that the benefit which is conceded to Scotland is not granted to Ireland.
  MR. ANDERSON: As the Representative of a constituency that has a very large fishing population, I desire to say a few words to the Committee on this subject. Having discussed the matter with fishermen, and ascertained their opinion in regard to the Fishery Board, I must agree entirely with the views expressed by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Forfarshire (Mr. J. W. Barclay). The fishing popu-

  237
  lation of Scotland look upon the Fishery Board, I regret to say, as having been, so far, a failure. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Berwickshire (Mr. Marjoribanks) seems to think that the Board has been a success. I understood him to get up in order to differ from my hon. Friend the Member for Forfarshire; but he had not proceeded very far in his remarks when he came to the very important question—the very burning question—of trawling. The right hon. Gentleman threw over the Fishery Board, for he thought their conduct with regard to trawling had been entirely wrong. Now, that is a rather curious way of proving that the action of the Fishery Board has been successful in promoting the fishing industry. This question of trawling is a most important one. As the right hon. Gentleman has said, it affects, very materially, the Moray Firth. The constituency I represent is by the side of the Moray Firth, and the fishermen there have over and over again protested that they ought to be protected from the depredations of trawlers. I have no doubt that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland (Mr. A. J. Balfour) is aware of the evidence that was given before the Trawling Commission on this subject. With regard to the Moray Firth, the present officials of the Fishery Board came forward, and said they considered that trawling there did unquestionable harm to inshore fishing. In the face of that, and in the face of the other fact, that a great amount of injury is undoubtedly done in the Moray Firth to the line and drift-net fishermen, I ask this question—I asked it the other day, and the right hon. Gentleman was kind enough to get me the answer of the Fishery Board; but I am going to ask him to tell me to-night why, when it has been proved by evidence, given without contradiction, that considerable injury is done to fishing by the system of trawling, when it is admitted that there is a very large population on the Moray Firth of old men, many of whom have not the physical strength to go out for deep-sea fishing, the Moray Firth is not included in the area within which trawlers are not allowed to come? I am sure hon. Members of the Committee will agree with me that this is a very serious matter for Scotland. It is very hard for these men, when they have been going
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  to church on a Sunday, and have been keeping the Sabbath in the way it is the custom to keep that day in Scotland, to see, as I have seen, one of these steam trawlers come up within 200 or 300 yards of the shore of the Moray Firth, doing great injury to the fishery, and, at the same time, wounding their susceptibilities by fishing on a day which they think ought to be kept sacred. It is but natural that, under such circumstances, a feeling of indignation at the present state of things should be engendered in the minds of the fishermen of Scotland. With these facts before him, I sincerely trust the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. A. J. Balfour) will tell us to-night that he will reconsider the question of the inclusion of the Moray Firth in the area within which trawlers are not allowed. As the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Berwickshire said, there is ample room for trawlers elsewhere. They only go on certain occasions to inshore waters; and I do appeal to the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland (Mr. A. J. Balfour) in face of the evidence generally, and of that of one Member of the Trawling Commission, most valuable evidence indeed—namely, that he was in favour of prohibiting inshore trawling altogether, to let us have some action in the matter if the Fishery Board or the Government is to be of any practical use at all. Trawling, as the right hon. Gentleman must be aware, is prohibited within three-mile limits on the Coast of France and Germany for the express reasons which have been urged to-night in favour of the prohibition on the Coast of Scotland. Do not let us hesitate in the matter any longer, and do what the Fishery Board is now doing—as far as I know with the sanction of the right hon. Gentleman—namely, starting on a career of fresh experiments. The Board say they do not propose to include the Moray Firth, because they are going to have some experiments in the Firth of Forth. I see that on the Board there is a Professor. I do not wish to say anything against this Professor; personally, I believe he is a very eminent man; but a Professor is a most dangerous person to have on any Board. This Professor seems to lead the Fishery Board completely by the nose, because they allow him to conduct whatever scientific investiga-

  239
  tions he likes. There is, I see, to be a scientific investigation into the specific gravity of the water of the Moray Firth. What on earth, I should like to know, is the value of that? He is not satisfied with that; but there are elaborate plans produced in this Report of which the non. Member for Forfarshire (Mr. J. W. Barclay) speaks so highly. I hardly think the hon. Gentleman has examined it very carefully. There is to be a scientific investigation as to whether certain kinds of fish have red or white muscles; and there is in the Report a long disquisition as to the comparison between the muscular development of fish and poultry. The Professor goes on to investigate whether whiting can have fatty degeneration of the heart. Well, I am bound to say that these investigations may be very interesting; but it seems to me they spring from the inventive brain of this Professor. I imagine, too, that the idea of making an experiment in the Firth of Forth was also conceived in the brain of the Professor; and after you have experimented—after you have taken samples of water from parts of the Moray Firth, and analyzed it, and reported upon it; after you have made your investigations as to the muscular development of the unfortunate fish, you will be just where you are now. The Fishery Board has been a signal failure; it has been a signal failure for the very reason pointed out by the hon. Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Hunter) and the hon. Member for Forfarshire (Mr. J. W. Barclay), and that is that you have not got on the Board any practical men. The Committee is probably aware that the Chairman of this Fishery Board is a bookseller in Edinburgh. Do let me ask the Committee what would be thought if, supposing it was thought necessary to appoint a Board for the purpose of protecting the bookselling industry, for some reason or other a fish curer was appointed Chairman of the Board—not at all a more absurd thing than you have done here. I do not agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Berwick-shire saying it would be difficult to get persons in the fishing trade to attend to the duties of the Board. I could get any number of men in the different branches of the trade who would be delighted to join the Board with the object of promoting the prosperity of their in-
  240
  dustry. What I wish to ask the Secretary for Scotland is this—and here I must ask for a specific answer—will Her Majesty's Government undertake to say that when this Board comes to an end next year there shall be placed upon it a practical man whose appointment will be looked upon by practical men with confidence? With the indulgence of the Committee I will refer to another point. I understand that by Act of Parliament—and here I think the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. A. J. Balfour) will agree with me—it is part of the duty of the Fishery Board to take cognizance of everything relating to the Coast and Deep Sea Fisheries, and take such measures for improvement as, in their judgment, seems right. I think the Committee will see that one of the most important matters that the Fishery Board can consider is the question of bait. We all know that the success of line fishing depends on the supply of bait. There is an Act of Parliament which provides that the beds shall not be interfered with; and I know that they are interfered with. And, therefore, I say that it is the province of the Fishery Board to take cognizance of this matter of mussel beds. I think the Committee will be astonished when I tell them what occurred in the month of June last to some 20 fishermen from Lossiemouth, who were engaged below low water mark in the occupation of dredging for mussels to be used for the purposes of their industry. I think most hon. Members, as well as the Solicitor General, and, I hope, the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate also, will agree with me that it is very hard to prevent the right of dredging for mussels below low water mark. It is above low water mark that the alleged private rights with regard to mussel fishing exist—alleged rights which I think it will be proper to investigate and abolish, because I am of opinion that upon investigation they will be found to have no valid foundation. I ask the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland when a Return will be furnished as to the alleged granting of private rights for fishing on the Coast of Scotland?
  THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Gentleman is travelling beyond the Question before the Committee.
  MR. ANDERSON: I shall, of course, conform to your ruling, Mr. Chairman.

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  I am criticizing now the conduct of the Fishery Board for not taking action with regard to the case which I have just mentioned to the Committee. I was saying that there were 20 fishermen dredging for mussels below low water mark; whilst they were dredging a person appeared in a boat from the shore, who said he was the agent or factor of someone who lived at a distance. The fishermen took away the mussels, and they were followed and prosecuted; they were brought before the Sheriff of Tain, and I think, although the Committee must be astonished that such a right was put forward, they must be still more astonished to find that a Court could be found to convict these men in heavy penalties. That took place in the month of June last. Now, Sir, I ask this question—where was the Fishery Board on that occasion? It seems to me that they should have been the first people to come forward and protect these men. I will go further, and say that, in my opinion, they were bound to do so. I have asked if anything can be done with regard to the remission of these penalties, and the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate says that at present nothing will be done, because the matter is under appeal. I sincerely hope that something will be done, and that this matter of the Fishery Board will be taken into the consideration of Her Majesty's Government. I am afraid that I am wearying the Committee with these details. [" No, no!"] There is another important point to which I desire to allude, and that is in reference to the question of harbours on the Coast of Scotland. It was stated, and it is perfectly well known, that one of the main objects of the creation of the Fishery Board was that they should interfere for the purpose of making these small fishing harbours capable for boats to enter at all states of the tide. It was, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, manifest that, in consequence of the fishing harbours being closed at low tide, the men could not enter them, and that loss of life as well as loss of boats had occurred; and, moreover, tons and tons of fish had to be thrown overboard in consequence of the harbours being in this imperfect condition. Here we have loss of life, loss of boats, and loss of fish, and one would think that something would have been
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  done by the Board to remedy this state of things. I think that someone is to blame for the fact that, although you have created this Fishery Board and placed in their hands large powers, literally nothing has been done to improve these harbours, and to insure to a greater extent the safety of the fishermen who use them. When we consider the magnitude of the industry, and the importance of the various interests connected with it, I think the Committee will agree with me in the hope that Her Majesty's Government will take care that something is done in this matter. For these reasons, I venture to say that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Berwickshire was hardly accurate in saying that the Fishery Board was such a complete success. There are various other points about which the fishing population in Scotland have great cause of complaint, and which probably may be mentioned by other hon. Members in the course of this discussion; but I think I have said enough to show that the action of the Fishery Board calls for the most serious consideration on the part of Her Majesty's Government.
  MR. A. SUTHERLAND: I have no desire to detain the Committee with any remarks upon subjects which hon. Members have already discussed; but, being interested in the question of the Fishery Board, I should like to have from the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. A. J. Balfour) some information with regard to the provisions of the Crofters' Act of last Session. In that Act the Fishery Board is empowered to procure money from the Treasury, in order to assist fishermen to purchase boats and nets. I find, however, no sum included in this Vote for the purpose I have mentioned. Possibly I may be wrong in supposing that this is the proper place for the money to appear. I understand, however, that the money voted now is the money which is to be available for the year; and, that being so, I shall be obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for some information on the point I have referred to. As to what has fallen from my hon. Friend (Mr. Anderson) in regard to the question of mussels for bait, I would say that, in any case, it is a matter which the Fishery Board might very well undertake to look after; because it is within

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  my own knowledge that fishermen often have to pay more for the mussels than they receive for the fish they catch with them. I have not sufficient confidence in the Fishery Board to make me so congratulatory and sanguine as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Berwickshire (Mr. Marjoribanks). I have seen, on several occasions the gunboats and steamers employed for the protection of the fishermen actually retarding the work of fishing. I fancy the only way in which these vessels are sometimes employed is in preventing the boats from going to sea. I think that, at least, some money might be given for the purpose of enabling poor fishermen, who have not got them, to purchase boats and nets. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give us some definite information on this point.
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR): Before replying to the observations made by hon. Members upon the general subject I will deal with the point raised by the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken. The hon. Member for Sutherland has reminded the Committee that under the Crofters Act of last Session, and another Act passed last year, there is power to grant loans on certain conditions to fishermen. But I must point out that before that portion of the Act comes into operation it is necessary that an Order in Council should be passed. I can assure the hon. Member that the matter will be completed as soon as possible; and I may also inform him that already a Circular has been issued by the Fishery Board to the fishermen in crofting parishes, putting certain questions to them in regard to loans, and that everything is being done to hasten the work, so that when the Order in Council is passed there will be no delay in supplying the fishermen with the funds in the manner provided by the Act. Coming next to the general question with regard to the Fishery Board, Her Majesty's Government have no reason to complain of the discussion which has taken place this evening. I am perfectly aware of the great interest taken in this question in every part of Scotland, especially those having a seaboard, which few counties of Scotland are without. But although I do not complain of the length or the tone of the discussion, I cannot give a
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  complete assent to some of the views which have been put forward by hon. Gentlemen opposite. I observe that hon. Gentlemen themselves are not wholly agreed in their criticisms upon the Fishery Board. The hon. Member for Forfarshire (Mr. J. W. Barclay) told the Committee that he did not complain of the scientific work done by the Board; but the hon. Member for Elgin and Nairn (Mr. Anderson) tells us that the scientific work of the Board is a signal failure.
  MR. ANDERSON: I said that a great deal of the scientific work was unnecessary and useless.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I took down the words of the hon. Member, which I believe were that all the scientific work of the Board seemed to be useless. He protested against the presence of a Professor on the Board. He asserted that you ought not to have a Board dealing with the subject of fishing unless you have a fisherman upon it; surely then, by a parity of reasoning, you cannot have a Board to deal with scientific matters relating to fishing unless you have upon it a man scientifically acquainted with the subject. Then the hon. Member for Forfarshire complained of the fact that the Fishery Board had excluded trawlers from only a limited area on the Coast of Scotland. That area is from St. Andrew's along the Coast of Aberdeen-shire. Those who complain appear to think that the Board intended by their action to protect fishermen using drift net s from fishermen who trawl—that the object of the Board is to protect one class of fishermen against another class.
  MR. J. W. BARCLAY: I said that the area taken by the Fishery Board was too limited for the purpose that they themselves intended to carry out.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am aware that that is what the hon. Member fur Forfarshire said; but it is not all that other Members have said. Those hon. Members are attacking the system which he is in favour of; they appear to think that the Board had in view a protective object. Well, Sir, that is not the object of the Board. The Board considered themselves entirely precluded from taking the line of protecting one class of fishermen as against another, and selected the area simply and solely with a view to scientific investigation.

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  The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Berwickshire (Mr. Marjoribanks) has said that, in his opinion, trawlers ought to be excluded from fishing throughout the whole of the three-mile limit. I must point out that the danger is that legislation which steps in to protect one class may do so at the expense of another. The accusation against trawlers I understand to be not merely that they compete successfully with line and drift net fishermen, but that, in the course of their operations, they destroy capital which the drift-net fishermen use. That introduces a complication of the question which leaves a doubt in my mind whether it might not properly be the duty of the Government and the Fishery Board to consider how far they ought, or ought not, to exclude a class of men who, in pursuing their ordinary calling, cannot help destroying the small capital of their poorer brethren. There now remain two other questions for me to touch upon—the one as to the constitution of the Board; and the other the question of the use to which they put their powers. I say that if this discussion is taken as an index of the feeling in Scotland, it must be admitted that a considerable amount of dissatisfaction exists because no practical fisherman has been put upon the Board. The hon. Member for Forfarshire has complained of that, and allusion has been made to it by the hon. Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Hunter). I must point out that to take a fisherman out of his boat, and put him upon the Board to represent the whole of the fishing class in Scotland, will probably not give satisfaction to the fishermen themselves. It would be extremely difficult to get a fisherman who would take a national and not a local view of the question, and there would also be the question of payment. Hon. Gentlemen must recollect that the Fishery Board is not merely a scientific body, nor is it merely a body connected, except in a general way, with the interests of the fishing population. It has specific administrative duties of a very important kind. It has to look after fishing boats, to see that the trawling boats are numbered, and to do police work generally; it has to do with the inspection of inland fisheries; and it has, more than all, to exercise functions which may be described as semi-judicial in their character.
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  Well, Sir, what kind of fisherman do you intend to put on the Board? Are you going to have a drift-net fisherman, or a trawling fisherman? If a drift-net fisherman, you will have the whole trawling industry think that they will be ill-used; if a trawling fisherman, you will have all the clients of the hon. Gentleman opposite up in arms. This is a question of very great difficulty, and I think the best solution of it will be not to put on the Board a practical fisherman—that is to say, a man actually engaged in fishing; but, if you can, to put on it some gentleman intimately acquainted with the ins and outs of this great industry, who is accustomed to practical administrative work, and who shall supply to the Board that practical knowledge which is said to be now wanting. How far it will be possible to find such an individual I do not know; but the attention of the Government will not cease to be directed to this most important subject. A great deal of criticism has been passed on the Fishery Board on account of their management of harbours; and I will point out to hon. Gentlemen that, at all events, the construction of harbours is not a subject in which the advice of a practical fisherman would be of much use. ["Certainly, it would!"] The hon. Member for Forfarshire says—"Certainly, it would." I confess I have my doubts about that. What is required in the case of a harbour is not fishing knowledge, but engineering knowledge. The difficulty is not to know what you want, but how to get it. Therefore, I repeat that I do not think a practical fisherman would be of much use on the Board. The hon. Member for Forfarshire has ciriticized the Fishery Board for expending considerable sums of money on large works, and not spreading out the wretched pittance at their command over many small ones. I think that the hon. Member for Elgin and Nairn, and those who agree with him, are directly opposed to this opinion, because he says you should make your harbours such as will admit fishing vessels at all times. But I would point out that works of that kind, or anything like that kind, can only be carried out by the expenditure of considerable sums of money on each harbour. The engineers in the service

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  of the "Fishery Board cannot be described as incompetent, inasmuch as they belong to one of the most eminent firms in the country. It is easy to allege that some of the harbours have not fulfilled the expectations entertained of them; but no alteration of management would alter that state of things. Harbours are a standing reproach to engineers. Wherever you go in Ireland, Scotland, England, France, and Germany, the difficulties are so great, and the forces of nature so difficult to control, that, whatever command of skill and money you may have, to a certain extent failures must and will take place. The hon. Member for Elgin and Nairn has related to the House a certain number of failures that have occurred in connection with the Fishery Board; but I have no ground whatever to believe that the percentage of failures has been greater in the case of the Fishery Board in Scotland than we must expect. I do not know that I have anything more to add to the statement I have made. I think I have dealt with all the points raised by hon. Gentlemen who have taken part in this discussion; and I need only say, in conclusion, that it is very easy for hon. Gentlemen to criticize this Board. I never knew a Board that was not open to criticism. I will not say that I never knew a Board that did not deserve it; but what I do say is, that no alteration, no re-organization, no change in the class from which its Members are derived, no revolution in its constitution will ever make the Fishery Board or any other Board proof against all criticism. The truth is that the public naturally and inevitably expect more of such Boards than they can possibly do. I think that, though it may be true that, like all other human institutions, the Fishery Board of Scotland may have erred, they have, nevertheless, earned the gratitude of all who are interested in the fishing industry in Scotland. They may not be perfect,—it may be possible to improve the Board—but I would remind the Committee that a majority of the Board give their services gratuitously; that they laboriously work for the benefit of the fishing population, whose interests are so eloquently represented by hon. Gentlemen opposite; and if those hon. Gentlemen think it their duty to criticize the Board, I would yet ask them to recol-
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  lect that no Board can be perfect. I doubt whether it would be easy to find any body of men who would do more thoroughly and more efficiently the work which the public have entrusted to these gentlemen.
  MR. HUNTER: There is only one observation of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland to which I wish to reply; and I wish to do that, because he has fallen into a gross error on the exceedingly important subject of trawling. He said that the question, so far as regarded trawling, was really a question of protecting one class of industry against another. Well, it is nothing of the sort, and there is no fisherman who would for a moment advance such a contention. The most important objection of the fishermen is one which has already been referred to, although the right hon. Gentleman has omitted to notice it. That principal objection to trawling is, that it is a mode of fishing which is very injurious to the fishing industry, and which destroys the fish, and especially enormous numbers of young fish. Whether or no there is any ground for that objection is a moot point. There is a considerable difference of opinion upon it; but, at any rate, that is one ground on which the fishermen in Scotland object to the Fishery Board. They say that trawling is disastrous to the fishing industry. Then as to the difficulty of appointing practical fishermen upon the Board; surely, when you consider that there are three lawyers put upon the Board by statute, it is not too much to ask that there should be three fishermen, or three persons acquainted with the fishing industry, put on the Board, if it were only to balance the three lawyers. It is quite clear that the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken does not represent any constituency where there are many fishermen. If he did, he would have found that there was not very much difficulty in obtaining exceedingly intelligent and well-informed men to represent the fishing industry on the Fishery Board of Scotland.
  MR. J. W. BARCLAY: I cannot help feeling disappointed by the speech we have listened to from the Secretary for Scotland. I must concur in the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman to this extent—that we cannot expect the Fishery Board to be perfect; that we

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  cannot expect it to be above criticism; but what we do expect is, that the Government, in appointing the Board, should take reasonable steps to insure the attainment of reasonable results from the action of the Board. The reasons given by the right hon. Gentleman, if they are worth anything at all, would simply go to show that it is an advantage in appointing the Members of this Board that gentlemen should be selected who know nothing whatever about the subject with which they are expected to deal. It seems to me that that has been the principle on which the Board has been constituted. The Chairman knows nothing whatever about the subject which is dealt with by the Board over which he is called to preside. There is no Member on the Board who knows practically about sea fishings, and the consequence is that the Board is of little practical use as regard sea fishings. All that we ask is that in future the Government should endeavour to select men who do know something practical about sea fishing. It would not be so difficult, as the right hon. Gentleman seems to think, to get members on the Board who are practically acquainted with the fishing industry, and who could give judicial opinions on such questions affecting sea fishing as came before them. Of course, there would be a difficulty in getting all sections represented; but the Government who appointed the present Board made little difficulty in appointing Members all interested in the river salmon fishing, and did not take measures to place upon it gentlemen connected with the fishings in the sea. I should have no objection to anyone representing the trawlers being put upon the Board, if the line fishing were also represented. I trust that when the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland is better acquainted with the affairs of Scotland—and I hope he will be by-and-bye—he will know that many gentlemen connected with sea fishing in Scotland could be got to fill vacancies on the Board. I know that the Government did apply to a gentleman perfectly qualified by practical experience to sit upon the Board, and who was acquainted with the sea fishing industry; but this gentleman could not be induced to join it, because he considered that it was not sufficiently practical, and that the fact of
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  joining it would not be likely to do him any credit. But if the right hon. Gentleman will exercise discrimination and common sense in making appointments, I think that the services of qualified persons might easily be secured. Why should he not appoint persons who have a practical knowledge of the subject with which they have to deal? I do not know that the Sheriffs are particularly well qualified to deal with matters affecting fishing. Probably the idea is that the Government will be able to get all the law required from them; but I fail to see that there is any great demand for law in connection with the work of a Fishery Board. Another point to which I would direct the attention of the right hon. Gentleman is the fact that no adequate steps are taken by the Fishery Board to protect the mussel fishing. In many instances the mussel beds have been taken by the landowners arbitrarily, the fishermen not having been able to resist them. The proprietors have done nothing to establish or cultivate these mussel beds, and yet they have seized upon them, and say that the fishermen shall not make use of them unless they pay. The rights which in this way are claimed are by no means natural rights; and it is, therefore, not extraordinary that the fishermen should complain. If the legal element on the Board would, in cases of this kind, advise the fishermen in contesting the legality of these proceedings on the part of the proprietors, their services would be valuable. They might inspect the titles of the landlords to the land, and ascertain to what extent they could lay claim to the mussel beds. In many cases, I believe, it would be found that the landlord's title is of the slightest description. The Sheriffs, I think, might be of use for this purpose, if they would apply themselves to the work; otherwise, I think it would be much better to have the Board composed of practical men.
  MR. CRILLY: I was very glad indeed to hear that the Government did not find fault with hon. Members for having discussed this question at some length, because it was, as they said, a matter of great interest to Scotland. Now, there is also great interest taken in this question in Ireland; and as the Representative of a large fishing community in that country I should like to as-

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  sure Gentlemen from Scotland, who are taking action in this matter, that they have all the sympathy of my countrymen, and will have all our support in their endeavour to obtain what they possibly can to develop their fishing industries. The statement which has been put before us, and which has been referred to so interestingly by Scotch Representatives, is of much interest to Irishmen also, because it shows conclusively that the State nourishment of the fisheries of every country is not merely good in itself, but is profitable to the State, and to the people who engage in these industries. Now, for instance, as has been pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for North Sligo (Mr. P. McDonald) in a speech he delivered in the course of this discussion, the branding of herrings in Scotland has brought in a surplus of £5,200. If the same system were pursued in Ireland I am quite sure that the Irish fisheries would benefit in the same degree; but it is not merely, we conceive, from this statement in the matter of branding that the Government do all they can to encourage and develop the Scotch fisheries. We see that they grant annually in aid of piers and quays in Scotland sums which are required for the development of those works. We find that this year the sum of £3,000 has been allotted for that purpose. Now, nothing of that kind is done in connection with the fisheries of Ireland. We who represent Irish constituencies, and are familiar with Irish matters, know that wherever any money has been applied to the building of harbours it has been absolutely thrown away; but that is not the case in Scotland.
  MR. AMBROSE: Mr. Courtney, I rise to Order. I understand that the Question before you is an Amendment to reduce the salary of the Chairman of this Fishery Board; and I wish to ask you whether the hon. Member is entitled to enter into a discussion in regard to Irish harbours?
  THE CHAIRMAN: The question as to the Scotch Fishery Board is not confined to the Chairman's salary; therefore the hon. Member is not out of Order.
  MR. CRILLY: I was expressing my gratification, Mr. Courtney, in dealing with this Vote, that the Government had put down the sum of £3,000 for the building of piers and quays in connection with the Scotch fisheries; and I am glad that in
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  doing so I am not out of Order. I desire to he permitted to express a hope that the same generosity will obtain in regard to Ireland, because we know that the harbours built in that country are really monuments of the incompetence of the Irish Board of Works. But not merely does the Government grant large sums of money in aid of piers and quays in Scotland; but I find that there is a grant made in aid of telegraph extension. Where a line between a certain town or place and a fishing village will not pay the expense of working, the Government, very wisely, as I think, grant a sum of £392, and sometimes as much as £500, to sustain the telegraphic communication. This is as it ought to be. I am very pleased indeed to find that the sum of £26,780 has been allotted to develop and nourish the Scotch fisheries; and I believe that the right hon. Gentleman will carry out, or will do all he can to carry out, his promises to meet the representations which have been made to him by the Scotch Representatives. At present, undoubtedly, the Scotch Fishery Board does not seem to be an altogether capable one. On the contrary, on the face of it, I should say that it was an incapable Board; because we find that, although its main object is to maintain the fisheries of Scotland, the Chairman of that Body is actually a newsagent in Edinburgh, as if a news agent or a stationer were the best man to discharge the onerous duties connected with the Chairmanship of the Scotch Fishery Board. I have nothing further to say, except to express a hope, incidentally, that the Government will show towards the Irish fisheries the same kindly generosity and desire for their nourishment and their development that they have shown in regard to the Scotch fisheries. I find, as I have said, that the Government have allocated £26,780 to this purpose; and I find on a later page in this statement of Estimates, that the paltry sum of only £4,000 is granted to develop the Irish fisheries. I trust, therefore, that the Government will see its way—
  MR. AMBROSE: I am afraid, Mr. Courtney, that you did not clearly understand my point. Are we, Sir, discussing the Scotch Vote?
  THE CHAIRMAN: The line of argument which the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Crilly) is now indulging in has been

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  admitted in Committee of Supply for many years. I cannot, therefore, interrupt the hon. Member.
  MR. CRILLY: If the hon. Member opposite would only have a little patience he would find very little to complain of, as I am just now concluding my observations. I merely desired to address a few words to the Committee on matters that struck my attention on looking over the Estimates. I only hope that the Government will extend to the Irish fisheries the same consideration and generosity that they have extended to the Scotch fisheries.
  MR. BYRNE: I also congratulate hon. Members from Scotland on the interesting discussion which has taken place on the question before the Committee—the question of the Scotch Fishery Board. I beg to support the Amendment proposed. It appears to me to be a very proper Amendment. I think Scotland is very much more favoured than Ireland, although that is no reason why either I, or any of my Colleagues, should be jealous of the Scotch in this respect. On the contrary, I should like to see the Scotch sea fisheries very much better developed than they are. And it seems to me that the best way to bring about this development would be to appoint Scotch fishermen on the Board, and give them the management of their own affairs. I cannot believe that the best thing for these fisheries—and in this I differ from the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland (Mr. A. J. Balfour)—is to appoint gentlemen to manage them who know nothing whatever about fishing. I think there should be at least two or three individuals on the Board who are well up in nautical affairs and understand all about fishing. It appears that the Chairman of the Scotch Board receives the large salary of £800 a-year, and that he is not a fisherman, nor in any way connected with nautical matters. He only gets his appointment as a matter of patronage. It seems to me that the Government are not doing their best in the interests of Scotland, or of Scotch fisheries, when they foist a man of this kind upon the Fishery Board. There is another thing upon which I congratulate the Scotch fishing industry, and that is that the Government have not only given them a grant for piers and quays, but have also granted
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  £2,000 for scientific investigations. I do not object to that at all; but I think it desirable that a thorough investigation should be made into the subject of preserving fish, and the best method of sending them into market; because, as well as being a benefit to Scotland, a satisfactory settlement of this question will conduce to the introduction of a larger quantity of fish into the centres of consumption in the United Kingdom and all over the world. The right hon. Gentleman says that the Scotch Fishery Board has employed a very clever and experienced engineer, although he admitted that this gentleman made serious mistakes. The right hon. Gentleman went further, and said that the making of mistakes in this manner was inevitable. Well, if you employ a man who does not understand the business—if you engage upon the construction of piers and harbours a fresh-water engineer who knows nothing about marine matters, no doubt he must make mistakes. A watchmaker may know a great deal about the wheels of a watch; but when he comes to deal with the wheels of a mill he may find himself without experience, and altogether incapable of turning out good work. Therefore, I contend that you should have upon the Scotch Board gentlemen who understand fishing matters. The Scotch people know perfectly well what they want and what they ought to have in this matter; and I trust that the Committee will assist in carrying out their wishes. A reformation is required on the Board, so that the fishing industry of the country can have the business of the Board more under its control.
  MR. CALDWELL: I cannot join in the condemnation of the Chairman of the Fishery Board which has proceeded from hon. Gentlemen who are not connected with Scotland. I do not suppose that hon. Members from Scotland will find any fault with the ability of Sir Thomas Boyd, the Chairman of the Board. That gentleman was, for a considerable period, Lord Provost of Edinburgh, and he has talent sufficient to undertake the duties of Chairman of this Board. There is, however, one practical suggestion which I would offer to the Secretary for Scotland, and it is this—I quite agree that there ought to be representatives of the fishing interest

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  on the Scotch Fishery Board. It seems to me that the salary of the Chairman might be reduced to about £500. I think that would be a reasonable remuneration for the Chairman of such a Board. With regard to the remaining £300, I would suggest that it should be given to representatives elected by the fishermen of Scotland. You might have either two representatives of the Scotch fishermen at £150 a-piece, or three at £100. In the case of Glasgow Harbour, it was found very beneficial to have representatives of the shipping interest on the Clyde Trust. That arrangement has worked remarkably well, several interests being represented on the Trust; and I venture to suggest that the interests of the fishermen can be represented in a somewhat similar manner. There is a roll made up of the shipowners in Glasgow, and there would be no difficulty in having a roll of fishermen made up, and in having an election of representatives of fishermen every five years to hold office for five years. If a plan of that kind were carried out it would satisfy the fishermen of Scotland, and would give them an opportunity of making any complaints they might have. I do not see any objection to this plan. One representative could come from the East, and another from the West; and this would give the fishermen a channel for communicating their suggestions, and would do away with any feeling that exists that their interests are being neglected by the Board.
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: I am sure we cannot settle to-night the difficult subject of sea fisheries. I only rise to express my satisfaction at what has been done in the Firth of Forth in regard to trawling. I am sure that all Scotch fishermen will have derived satisfaction from what has been done, and I trust that the result will be to show what the effect of stopping trawling is.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 65; Noes 154: Majority 89.—(Div. List, No. 26.)
  Original Question put, and agreed to.
  (8.) £2,482, to complete the sum for Lunacy Commission, Scotland.
  MR. MOLLOY: I am not going to raise any discussion on this Vote, because the Lunacy Commissioners in Scotland manage their business as well, I believe, as it is managed anywhere in England; but I want to ask you to make a comparison with another Lunacy Board. I wish to ask how many visits the Scotch Lunacy Commissioners pay to Scotch lunatic asylums during the year? I see there are only two Commissioners in Scotland. Can the right hon. Gentleman tell me how many visits they make?
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR): This question I am unable to answer with precision. The hon. Gentleman is in error in saying that there are only two Lunacy Commissioners. There are seven who have to do with the inspection of Scotch asylums. I cannot tell the hon. Gentleman how many visits the Scotch Lunacy Commissioners make, for I believe the question has never been raised before.
  Vote agreed to.
  (9.) £3,089, to complete the sum for the Registrar General's Office, Scotland.
  (10.) £3,340, to complete the sum for Board of Supervision for Belief of the Poor, and for Public Health, Scotland.
  (11.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £2,516, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for the Salaries of the Officers and Attendants of the Household of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland and other Expenses."
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: On this Vote I desire to bring before the notice of the Committee a matter which is of great importance, not only with regard to a particular Department of the Public Service, but as it appears in connection with the whole Tory administration of the Civil Service Estimates. We are asked, Sir, to vote a sum of, altogether, £7,516 for the Household of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland; but it by no means follows that we can feel at all assured that this £7,516 is for the financial year in which we are asked to vote it. Now, Sir, with regard to the accounts of the last financial year which have now closed, it would

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  appear that when nearly the whole Vote was exhausted, there was sent in a claim for a sum of money of about £50 or £60. The Department was not able, out of the Vote for the year, to defray the charge, and accordingly they resorted to the very simple expedient of appropriating the sum of £27, which then remained to them unexpended from that year's Vote, in payment of part of the claim, and they deferred the balance of the claim until the next financial year. Naturally, the Comptroller and Auditor General took exception to the proceeding, and it came before the Committee of Public Accounts. The Committee of Public Accounts put it before the House, and stated that an important question of principle was raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General on this Vote.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. JACKSON): Would the hon. Gentleman say to what page he refers?
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: To page 6 of the Report of the Public Accounts Committee. They say that an important question of principle is raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General on tills Vote. They point out that an amount of £55 5s. accrued to incidental expenses in one of the Departments, and of this £27 was paid on account, leaving £28 5s. to be defrayed out of the account for 1885–6. And they say that the deliberate postponing till next year of payments which have become due, for the purpose of avoiding expenditure in excess of the grant, is the common expedient in all Departments of the Civil Service. In the evidence taken before the Public Accounts Committee, with which I will not trouble the Committee at any length, reference was made to this matter. The representative official who was before the Committee was asked this question by the Chairman—
  "Are the facts stated by the Comptroller and Auditor General in his Report correct—namely, that liability to the extent of £55 was incurred, of which only £27 was paid on account, and that the balance of £28 was left to be advanced out of the grant for 1885–6?"
  The answer was "Yes." The next question was, if the witness could state if the whole liability had been left to be defrayed out of the following year's account, what would have come before the Comptroller and Auditor General that would have shown him that the
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  Department could have incurred any such liability? The answer was—
  "I do not think he would have found out the fact. I think no document would have come before him from which he would have observed the postponement of the payment."
  I draw attention to the significance of that answer. It amounts to this, that, under the present system, a liability incurred by a Department may not be defrayed in the year in which it was incurred, but may be defrayed out of such Votes as we are now taking—out of the Votes of a totally different financial year—and that it would be impossible for the Comptroller and Auditor General, or anyone else, until long afterwards, to find out anything about it. The witness was asked to explain what was the view of the Treasury after the observation made by the Comptroller and Auditor General as to this postponement of payment. The answer was—
  "The Treasury would adhere to the view they took in the Minute of the 3rd of November that has been laid before the Committee. That is to say, that, in the first place, liabilities should not be incurred at all unless there was a prospect of being able to meet them; but if they are incurred, postponement is preferable to excess."
  In reply to definite questions put to him by various Members of the Committee, the Treasury official showed that the Treasury was exceedingly anxious to avoid, by hook or by crook, anything like an excess Vote. An excess Vote involves the Treasury coming down to this House and making a special explanation of the circumstances under which the amount voted in Committee has been exceeded by the Department in question. Of course, the necessity of the special explanation involved in an excess Vote exposes the Department to a good deal of criticism, and, possibly, to a close examination of the circumstances under which the excess has been incurred. It was admitted then by the Treasury official, that the Treasury are exceedingly anxious to avoid an excess Vote, no matter what the circumstances are under which the excess has been incurred—
  "Where it is impossible to secure a postponement, you have an excess Vote?—Yes,"
  And—
  "Where it is possible—"
  THE CHAIRMAN: Order! The question which the hon. Member for

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  East Donegal (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) is directing attention to is one of great importance, but it appears to have arisen in connection with the Vote for the Lord Lieutenant's Household in a former year. It is not pertinent to this particular Vote; indeed, it rather concerns the administration of the Civil Service altogether than any particular Vote. I think he is out of Order in entering upon it at this stage.
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: I propose to move the reduction of the Vote by £27, which I hope to show to be necessarily connected with this financial year's and a past financial year's accounts, and which, if defrayed at all, must eventually fall upon this particular Vote—
  "Where it is possible you avoid an excess Vote by adopting the plan which was adopted in this case?—Yes."
  THE CHAIRMAN: I do not think it would be in Order to move a reduction of this Vote in order to correct what is said to be an irregularity in a former year.
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: No; I I do not want to correct an irregularity. I want to withhold from the Treasury the sum of £27, which, if withheld from them on this ground, they will be unable to appropriate from the Vote anything towards the expenses of a former year.
  THE CHAIRMAN: They will be unable to appropriate that without a reduction. It is against the law to appropriate a part of this Vote towards an irregularity in a former year. A reduction of this Vote will neither increase nor decrease their power.
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: It is precisely because it appears that it is not out of their power—it is so stated by the Treasury official, and it is so stated by the Comptroller and Auditor General—and it is because I am anxious to enforce the rule which you have laid down as the law, I am bringing the question before the Committee.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I understood the hon. Member to complain of the difficulty of detecting irregularity.
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: The irregularity has been detected, and through its detection the general system has been revealed.
  THE CHAIRMAN: That being so, it would be improper to appropriate any
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  part of this Vote to cover an irregularity in a former year, which must come before the House by way of a Vote in Excess. It would be irregular to discuss the matter on this particular Vote.
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: I will endeavour to confine myself closely to the remarks of the Public Accounts Committee on this Vote. The Public Accounts Committee report that the postponement of payments that have become due appears to be a common expedient in all Departments, and that it is defended by the Treasury as being the lesser of two irregularities. The Accounting Officers of the War Office and of the Admiralty state, on the other hand, that no such practice is ever adopted in their respective Departments, and they object, as a matter of financial principle, to the postponement of payments which have accrued, and which ought in the ordinary course to be paid.
  "Your Committee concur with the Comptroller and Auditor General in the view that such, practice withdraws from the knowledge of the Comptroller and Auditor General and of Parliament the fact of expenditure in excess of grant having been incurred."
  In this case part of the excess has been paid, and the postponement of the payment of the residue obtained. If the whole, instead of part, had been postponed, the irregularity would probably never have been discovered until the accounts of 1885–6 were under audit. The Committee are strongly of opinion that if the practice heretofore sanctioned by the Treasury was allowed to continue, every payment postponed should be shown on the face of the Appropriation Account. Now, of course, Mr. Courtney, after your decision I am precluded from going over that portion of the ground which I had marked out for myself. If I were permitted to do so, I think I could show that it is practically impossible for the Department responsible for this particular Vote to defray the arrears of liability without infringing upon the Vote we are now asked to grant. But I think the noble Lord the Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord Randolph Churchill) will recognize the importance, the far-reaching importance, of the question which has here been raised, and I think that every Member of this Committee, who has at all interested himself in the administration of public monies, will recognize at

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  once that this is a matter which ought to be dealt with, and dealt with authoritatively once and for all, because, if the allegation of the Treasury official—
  THE CHAIRMAN: I must interrupt the hon. Member again by reminding him that the question before the Committee is the voting of a certain sum of money to defray the expenses of the Lord Lieutenant's Household.
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: I will endeavour to put myself in Order as far as possible. I am exceedingly anxious to keep in Order, and I will, therefore, move the reduction of this Vote by the sum of £27, on the ground that I believe there is an item to that amount involved in the sum we are now asked to vote which does not belong to the present financial year, and, I may be allowed to add, that I believe that if the whole of the Civil Service Estimates were investigated closely, it would be found that, in a very large number of cases, there are items of a like description that would be equally open to challenge. In this particular case the amount involved is small, but, small as it is, the principle is great. The illustration of the application of the principle may be infinitesimal; but, under the circumstances, I think there is nothing more to be done than to move the reduction of this Vote by £27, and I will throw myself upon the Committee so far as to ask them to express their sense of the system which has been adopted. I am not in a position to go into those details which I consider necessary to vindicate the position I take up; but unless there is some explanation of the way in which this £27 has been got rid of, the way in which this money has been furnished to pay the liability of the year before last, I think the Committee will see there is very good ground for impressing upon the minds of ths Treasary officials and upon the Heads of every Department in the Civil Service, the necessity of restricting their outlay to the Vote which Parliament makes for the Service of the financial year. I beg to move the reduction of the Vote by £27.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £2,489, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for the Salaries of
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  the Officers and Attendants of the Household of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland and other Expenses."—(Mr. Arthur O'Connor.)
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Lord RANDOLPH CHURCHILL): I am sorry, in one way, that the hon. Gentleman has been interrupted, though, of course, I easily see it is absolutely necessary that the discussion on this Vote should be confined to the Vote itself, and that the Chairman's ruling is indispensable. It is difficult to connect the point which the hon. Member has raised with the Vote before the Committee; but I think I can satisfy him so far as to induce him not to press his Motion to a division. I understood the hon. Gentleman to point to the fact that the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Public Accounts Committee have agreed that a certain transaction of the Civil Service Departments is a transaction wrong in principle and in practice. [Mr. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: Of the whole of the Services.] Just so. I think, in all probability, the hon. Member is right, and that he has acted properly in calling attention to the matter. My own opinion is this—that the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Public Accounts Committee, acting together, ought to be a superior authority to the Treasury, and that, if they distinctly lay down a rule as to the expenditure of money, it is the business of the Treasury to acknowledge their authority as superior to their own. Therefore, if the hon. Member will be content to leave the matter where it stands at present, I will undertake that the remarks he has made are carefully considered, and that an endeavour is made to bring the Treasury practice into accord with the recommendations of the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Public Accounts Committee.
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: I am sure the Committee will feel with me that the reply of the noble Lord the Chancellor of the Exchequer is eminently satisfactory, and that I may venture to congratulate him upon the breadth of view with which he always looks at matters of this kind. In asking leave to withdraw my Motion for the reduction of the Vote, I may also add that I value the statement of the noble Lord very much indeed. He has committed himself, with the high authority of his Office, to the statement that the Comp-

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  troller and Auditor General and the Public Accounts Committee are together, when they agree, an authority; if not greater, at any rate as great as that of the Treasury. I am the more gratified, because, only this very year, when the Public Accounts Committee reminded the representative of one of the great spending Departments that the representations of the Committee, made in a previous year, had not been carried out, he answered us, rather jauntily, that he did not take instructions from the Public Accounts Committee or the Comptroller and Auditor General, but from the Treasury, and that, if the Treasury do not choose to act upon the representations of the Committee, the spending Departments pay very little heed to them. Considering what the noble Lord has said, I am extremely gratified with the result of my intervention.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Original Question again proposed.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELL: I desire to move the reduction of this Vote by the sum of £1,563, the amount set down for Queen's Plates. I believe that money to be wasted. I voted with hon. Members below the Gangway in favour of the Motion to disallow £218 for the Queen's Plates for Scotland. I hope I shall now receive their support.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £953, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for the Salaries of the Officers and Attendants of the Household of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland and other Expenses."—? (Mr. Thomas Russell.)
  COLONEL NOLAN: I would like to say that it is really unfair to make this Motion with regard, to the Queen's Plates for Ireland. There are Queen's Plates run for in England as well as in Ireland, and the value of those in England is much greater than those in Ireland. Unfortunately, the money given in England is given out of the Queen's Privy Purse; while that given in Ireland is put on the Estimates. Men opposed to racing always attack the Irish Queen's Plates, while, in reality, any attack that is made ought to be made on the Plates in this country. I quite understand the hon. Member (Mr. T. W. Russell) has not made this Motion out
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  of any hostility to the Irish Plates in particular, but simply because he objects to Queen's Plates generally, and he cannot attack the English Plates. I put it to the hon. Gentleman, whether he is acting fairly? Would it not be much fairer that he should ballot for a place on Tuesday or Friday in next week, to propose a Resolution to the effect that no money should be given for Queen's Plates in England? If Queen's Plates are good things in England, they are equally good in Ireland. Indeed, in Ireland they are particularly wanted. In the first place, it is well known that the great difficulty in Ireland is to get proper sires; and we know also that racing encourages a good class of horses. If you take away the Queen's Plates, you take away the only incentive to keep up any thoroughbred horses in Ireland. Ireland is peculiarly well suited for the breeding of horses, though Irish racehorses are not as good as the English. [An. hon. MEMBER: Yes; for Queen's Plates.] If you take away the Queen's Plates, you strike Ireland in the most vulnerable point as regards racing. The soil of Ireland is good for breeding; but take away this money, and you will practically destroy the very few racing establishments there are in the country; compared with the number in England there are very few. I look upon this sum, small and wretched as it is, as really one of considerable importance. I believe the Jockey Club will not allow Irish horses to be entered for the English handicaps until they have run three times in England; in fact, at the present time Irish horses are "Boycotted" in England. ["No, no!"] Let anyone inquire, and he will find that within the last six or 12 months a rule has been passed by the Jockey Club by which Irish horses cannot compete for certain races until they have run a given number of times in England. This is a very small sum of money, and I hope the hon. Member will withdraw his Motion, and thus refrain from doing anything to destroy the incentive to breed good horses in Ireland. If he objects to racing, let him bring up a Motion condemnatory of the system as applied to England, Ireland, and Scotland generally.
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: It is really very sad to find some Irish Members who are always so ready to appeal to us with regard to Irish

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  grievances, and who, while attacking English and Scotch abuses, are still ready to defend some Irish abuses. It seems to me that this is one of the worst of Irish abuses. I do hope that in the interest of the people of Ireland we shall deprive them of these temptations to gamble. I believe that some day or other the Irish people will have self-government, and thus be able to regulate these matters for themselves; but, in the meantime, I shall support the Motion of my hon. Friend (Mr. T. W. Russell).
  MR. LABOUCHERE: I voted just now against Queen's Plates in Scotland, and, if I remember rightly, pointed out that what is fair for the Scotchman ought to be fair for the Irishman. If we are not to have Queen's Plates in Scotland we surely ought not to have them in Ireland. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Galway (Colonel Nolan) said that the breeding of good horses depended upon Queen's Plates. I am not myself a racing man, but I do know something about horses in general. I know perfectly well that the more racehorses you have the worse horses you have. Racehorses can run very quickly with a very light weight on their backs, but they are a weedy set of animals. If you want to encourage the breed of horses you ought to send some good stallions about the country—good sound roadsters and such like horses. It is absurd to think that this £1,563, given in 15 Queen's Plates, will benefit the breed of horses in Ireland. If Irishmen want to have races, let them get them up themselves. I want them to legislate for themselves in everything, horse-races included. Let them have gala meetings if they like. They can easily get up races; they have simply to charge something for entrance, and give good prizes. I hope they will have the courage to support a true economic principle, even when applicable to Ireland, and that they will join with the hon. Gentleman (Mr. T. W. Russell) in protesting against Queen's Plates, just as Scotchmen themselves joined with the Irish in voting against Queen's Plates in Scotland.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 36; Noes 178: Majority 142.—(Div. List, No. 27.)
  Original Question again proposed.
  MR. TUITE: I rise to move a reduction of the Vote by the sum of £3,469. My reason for doing so is the very unsatisfactory reply which I received this evening in connection with the Barbavilla conspiracy. In that case there are persons suffering penal servitude for a crime of which I believe, and the people of my country believe, they are innocent. They were convicted of an alleged conspiracy to murder, and I maintain that the real conspiracy is among the Crown officials who concocted that charge. It will be remembered that on April 2, 1882, a murder was committed in the county of Westmeath, the intended victim of which was a Mr. Smyth. The assassin missed his aim, and a lady was unfortunately killed.
  THE CHAIRMAN: It would be more in Order if this discussion were raised on the next Vote, which relates to the Department of the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland.
  MR. SEXTON: May I ask you, Sir, if your ruling applies to the question of the Proclamation of Arms by the Lord Lieutenant?
  THE CHAIRMAN: That will also properly be discussed on the Chief Secretary's Vote.
  DR. TANNER: I rise to move the reduction of this Vote by the sum of £789 for the salaries to the Chaplain and others in the chapel of Dublin Castle. The Chaplain for the Castle receives the sum of £184 12 s. 8d., and also an allowance of £150 for a furnished house. I understand that it is a distinct mistake to have any chaplain set apart for the private use of the Lord Lieutenant. Last year, this Chaplain was of no use whatever, because the Lord Lieutenant happens to have been a member of the Presbyterian Church. Of course, I do not know of what persuasion the present Viceroy is; but the late Viceroy was certainly Presbyterian, and the consequence is that this item of wastful expenditure was of no use, except for keeping up a small fashionable church in one of the back parts of the City of Dublin. At the present day we are always trying to get rid of intolerance, no matter in what shape or form it may present itself. In Ireland, we have done away with the Established Church because it was unsuitable. This

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  Chapel Royal appears to be one of the lineal successors of a state of affairs which we have abolished; and I think hon. Members will agree with me that it is altogether superfluous, and that it would be a great deal better that we should do away with it. I hope that in Ireland we may soon have a Catholic Lord Lieutenant; and when that comes about these matters will be placed on a footing more in conformity with the susceptibilities of the majority of the people of Ireland who have been so badly treated in the past. I hope this House, even in its present mood, will see that this item of expenditure is certainly an unjust one—not only unjust, but stupid, and I hope it will disappear from the Estimates.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £1,727, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for the Salaries of the Officers and Attendants of the Household of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland and other Expenses."—(Dr. Tanner.)
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH): I do not quite understand if the hon. Gentleman objects to the amount paid to the Chaplain, or whether he desires to abolish the office of Chaplain altogether? [Dr. TANNER: Yes, Sir.] Yes, says the hon. Member; but that really depends on the Office of the Lord Lieutenant. If the Office of the Lord Lieutenant is to be maintained, and I understand the hon. Member and those who sit near him wish that it should be maintained, it must be maintained in the state and dignity appertaining to it; and part of that dignity is the religious establishment which is attached to the representation of Royalty. The hon. Member suggests that some day there may be a Catholic Lord Lieutenant, and says that the late Lord Lieutenant was a Presbyterian. Whether it would be permitted that the Lord Lieutenant should be a Catholic, is a matter for future consideration; but, at present, they are Protestants, and, being so, they are provided with the religious establishment which appertains to the Office, which, in the present case, I hope the Committee will not be unwilling to grant.
  MR. M. J. KENNY: I do not think that my hon. Friend objects to the form of religion which Lord Aberdeen professed. I think arrangements might be made by which the Chaplain might be brought into conformity with the religion of the Lord Lieutenant for the time being. Everyone knows that if the Lord Lieutenant were to be a Catholic, there would be no objection to it from any quarter. I think, in these cases, we should come to some understanding by which a Catholic or a Presbyterian Lord Lieutenant would be provided out of the public funds with a chaplain of his own religion, and if this were done, I think that, in future, this Vote would not be challenged. In the absence of an assurance to that effect, I think my hon. Friend is quite right in challenging this portion of the Estimate, and I shall support him if he divides the Committee on his Motion for its reduction.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELL: The late Lord Lieutenant attended more than once the Presbyterian church in Rutland Square and in Rathgar; but it is an error to suppose that he did not attend service in the Chapel Royal.
  DR. TANNER: The hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has had the singular advantage of attending both places of worship, and I could expect nothing else from the hon. Gentleman. But I cannot at all agree with the right hon. Baronet, that the bringing forward of this Motion to reduce the Vote is striking a blow at the Lord Lieutenant. We understand that nothing would tend to make the position of the Lord Lieutenant more secure than the doing away with these absurdities. This rev. gentlemen, like the Vicar of Bray, will be Chaplain at the Castle whatever King may reign. I am rather astonished that the right hon. Baronet should make the suggestion that a man of this sort would be any ornament to the position of the Lord Lieutenant. On the contrary, I think that, having regard to the circumstances, it is a piece of decorative absurdity, and that if it were done away with it would be a great deal better for the Lord Lieutenant and the country.
  MR. JOHN MORLEY: Whether or not the office of Chaplain at the Castle of Dublin is futile, I will

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  not discuss; but as far as the late Lord Lieutenant is concerned, he, on a previous occasion, when the same point was raised, desired me to say that he found considerable edification from the ministrations of the Chaplain. And, that being so, hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway may think that there is no sort of moral to be drawn from the fact of Lord Aberdeen having attended a Presbyterian place of worship. I think Lord Aberdeen would desire that no interference should take place with this office. I say all that without prejudice to my own views.
  MR. JORDAN: I do not object, Sir, to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland having a chaplain; but I do not see why the Chapel Royal is a necessity in a city which contains Christchurch Cathedral and St. Patrick's Cathedral. I think that Christchurch would be as convenient a place as the Chapel Royal for the Lord Lieutenant to worship in. I remember being at Christchurch, Dublin, when the Prince of Wales was there; and I think that there would be nothing derogatory to the state of the Lord Lieutenant if he were to attend there. In my opinion, the Chapel Royal is unnecessary as a place of worship, and that the two Cathedrals offer quite enough facilities for the Lord Lieutenant in that respect. If the Household of the Lord Lieutenant wish to attend prayers on week days—and I much question whether they do—they may be theoretically held to go to the Chapel Royal; but I think very few of the Household find their way there. There are many other places of worship which they can attend, and, therefore, for the Lord Lieutenant's Household I think the Chapel Royal is wholly unnecessary.
  MR. W. ABRAHAM: I desire to raise my voice against this charge. If it were necessary to put forward the claim that the Lord Lieutenant should have a chaplain, and that he should be of the form of religion which the Lord Lieutenant professed, I could understand that the Committee should be willing to vote a sum of money for the purpose. But when we consider the changes which the Office of Lord Lieutenant is likely to undergo, and the possibility of our having a Catholic, and, I trust, an independent Lord Lieutenant, it is most undesirable that we should have permanently in Dublin Castle a chaplain belonging to the
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  Church which has been disestablished in Ireland. Therefore, without wishing to do anything to lower the state of the Lord Lieutenant, I feel bound to object to this expenditure for a useless purpose.
  MR. MAHONY: I think, if the Lord Lieutenant requires a chaplain, an allowance should be made so that he may obtain one to suit his own views. I do not see that the Church will gain any advantage by being placed in a false position in this respect. The office seems to me to be clearly a relic of the old state of ascendancy, and, therefore, I shall vote against the charge if the hon. Member goes to a division. I see with great regret that the Episcopalian Church in Ireland is fast degenerating into a mere political sect.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 55; Noes 179: Majority 124.—(Div. List, No. 28.)
  Original Question again proposed.
  MR. CLANCY: Earlier in the evening I supported the Motion of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere) to strike out of the Estimates a sum on account of the Lyon King-of-Arms, and I stated then I did so because I object to the retention of such offices, and that I should be quite prepared to move at the proper time a similar reduction in the Estimates for Ireland. I now beg to move the reduction of the Vote for the Lord Lieutenant's Household by the sum of £1,089, the amount of the salary of the Ulster King-of-Arms, and the salaries and allowances for clerks, messengers, and others connected with the office. We have heard to-night about me-diæval mummeries; but surely this is as good a specimen of mediæval mummery as is to be found in the civilized world. What on earth the use of the Ulster King-of-Arms is I cannot imagine, except, as the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere) has said, to present coats of arms and mottoes to persons who have not got them. I do not want to discuss this question at any length, especially as other subjects of importance are waiting to be introduced; but I cannot help saying that if the present Ulster King-of-Arms were not an extremely inoffensive and harmless gentleman, the probability is that this office would long since have been abo-

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  lished by the force of the Irish Party in Parliament. I think an effort should now be made to effect a reform in this Department of the Household of the Lord Lieutenant by the total abolition of the absurd office of the Ulster King-of-Arms. I beg to move the reduction of the Vote by the sum of £1,089.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £1,427, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31at day of March 1887, for the Salaries of the Officers and Attendants of the Household of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland and other Expenses."—(Mr. Clancy.)
  MR. CRILLY: I do not wish to take part in the division without knowing what I am voting for or against, as the case may be. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland will inform us what the duties of the Ulster King-of-Arms are, and also what the Athlone Pursuivant-of-Arms is supposed to do?
  MR. O'HEA: There is a good deal of curiosity, and no wonder, as to the functions appertaining to the office of the Ulster King-of-Arms. If the Ulster King-of-Arms is the custodian of Irish pedigrees, he has not shown himself courteous in all his dealings with the public. I may mention the instance of a clergyman who was presented by his parishioners with a new card. He was anxious to obtain some explanation of the armorial bearings on the card, and he wrote to Sir Bernard Burke requesting him to supply him with an explanation. A week passed and the rev. gentleman received no reply. He wrote a second letter, and on this occasion enclosed a stamped envelope addressed to himself for the reply. He did not receive an answer to his second request. This is one of those ornamental offices, the expenditure on which is considerable, but the utility of which is only fanciful. The Ulster King-of-Arms may be a very ornamental personage, but he is not a useful functionary. I certainly shall vote with my hon. Friend (Mr. Clancy).
  MR. M. J. KENNY: It would be well if the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland would explain to us what particular functions are discharged by the Ulster King-of-Arms. I believe there are cer-
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  tain persons in Ireland—baronets and lords—to whom this functionary is of some service; but, as far as the general population is concerned, Sir Bernard Burke is of no assistance. I am not surprised that the rev. gentleman my hon. Friend (Mr. O'Hea) alluded to failed altogether in his object, because, although he sent a stamped envelope for the reply, he did not enclose the necessary fee. I suppose that for a fee Sir Bernard Burke will give anybody a pedigree dating from the Norman Conquest. But we have a gentleman in Ireland—Mr. O'Hart—who engages to supply anyone with a pedigree from the time of Brian Boru. Anyhow, we do not know what Sir Bernard Burke does except to give pedigrees to distinguished people. Now, in Holland and other Continental countries, there are in every parish Marriage Registrars who profess to give the pedigree of people for at least 500 years. There are no such officials in Ireland. If there is anything to be done in the nature of the King-of-Arms business, it ought to be carried on on popular principles, so that those who may desire to have an account of their antecedents can obtain one. With regard to the inheritance to property, it is very desirable that some establishment should exist in the country by which the pedigrees of families may be traced. In Ireland we have practically nothing of the kind. Up to within the last 50 years, in fact, more recently than that, there has been nothing in Ireland of the nature of a regular registry of marriages, and the result is there are frequent disputes with reference to succession to property. I trust that we may receive some explanation from the Chief Secretary with respect to the duties Sir Bernard Burke performs.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH): I did not anticipate from what I have known of Sir Bernard Burke, and heard of him since I was first connected with Ireland, that any hon. Member would have objected to this office on the ground of unpopularity or misconduct on the part of Sir Bernard Burke. He is not only a gentleman who is universally respected and liked, but he thoroughly understands the peculiar duties which attach to this office. I must candidly confess I am unable to explain what the duties are; but the

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  office is a very ancient estate and dignity. It is more than 300 years old. Of course, it has charge of matters connected with the history of Ireland, and the history of individual families in Ireland, and although hon. Members may not attach as much importance to these things as was formerly attached to them, I do not think the office should be abolished, especially when similar offices are maintained in England and Scotland. Now, I may state that, as far as I can gather, this office is of no real cost to the State at all. When Sir Bernard Burke was appointed to the office he was paid entirely by fees. Hon. Members will see what his emoluments from the office are. In a period of five and a quarter years after the commutation of the fees no less than £6,000 was paid to the Treasury in fees; therefore, I think it will be clear that as the Treasury now receives the fees, and Sir Bernard Burke only a salary, the country is the gainer and not the loser by the bargain. This, however, is one of those offices which, when it falls vacant, will have to be considered. It is clearly understood with regard to this and several offices of the same kind that, in the event of a vacancy occurring, it will not be filled up without full consideration of the duties of the office and the pay which should be given to any person who may be appointed as the successor of Sir Bernard Burke. I am afraid I can say no more than this upon the subject; but I hope what I have said will show that the office is one of antiquity, and that it does not involve any cost to the State. It is part, no doubt, of the appanage of the Lord Lieutenant's Office, and as such I think that for the present, at any rate, it ought to be maintained.
  MR. CLANCY: I believe I stated, Mr. Courtney, that I made no attack upon Sir Bernard Burke. I said, on the contrary, that he was a harmless and inoffensive gentleman, and that if he had not been of that character the office would probably have been abolished long ago, or, at least, an attempt would have been made to abolish it. The right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland now says the office is 300 years old. It has existed 300 years too long. This is the first time I have heard an abuse defended in this House on account of its antiquity. I
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  object to the absurdity of the office, and I do not think its absurdity is diminished in the least by the fact that Sir Bernard Burke collects a certain amount every year in fees. We find the Ulster King-of-Arms, who discharges duties which the Chief Secretary for Ireland is not able to describe, is paid £750 a-year; the Athlone Pursuivant-of-Arms, who has to discharge duties which the right hon. Gentleman has not attempted to describe, is paid £20 in lieu of official fees; the allowance to a clerk in the Office of Arms as official reporter during the Castle season, whatever that may be, is £30; the allowance for the clothing of one kettle-drummer is £12 6s., though in another place it is said to be £13. The only persons who, in my opinion, deserve to be paid are the office cleaner, and he or she receives £30 a-year, and the porter or messenger, who gets £76. I should like to allow these officials their salaries; but, of course, if we abolish the office we shall not want an office cleaner or messenger.
  MR. O'HEA: I, and I have no doubt others, imagined when the right hon. Gentleman rose that he would give us some information as to the functions of the Ulster King-of-Arms; but beyond informing the Committee that it was an office dating back 300 years, and that its antiquity is a recommendation for its maintenance and continuance, he has said nothing to induce any hon. Members on this side of the House to alter the intention they had formed of voting against the items in the Estimates to defray the expenses of the office. Now, Sir, I think that the speech of the right hon. Gentleman confirmed us in the opinion we had formed of this office—namely, that it is one of those fossil remains that perhaps sprung from the feudalism which was in its expiring state some 300 years ago. I do not think antiquity could be put forward as the reason for the maintenance of any office in this country. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for North Dublin (Mr. Clancy) that a hardship may be inflicted upon a couple of very deserving and, no doubt, very meritorious individuals by the abolition of this office; but perhaps there are other ways in which the services of these people may be brought into requisition. The Government have given no satisfactory explanation, and, therefore, I

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  trust the good sense of hon. Members will prompt them to take the step necessary for the abolition of the office.
  MR. BIGGAR: This is one of the Votes upon which there is a discussion every year, and I appeal to the Government whether it would not be better to give Sir Bernard Burke a lump sum and abolish the office at once? It is all very well for the Chief Secretary to say—"We will take it into consideration when Sir Bernard Burke drops off." There is not the slightest doubt someone will exist then to whom it will be considered desirable by the Government of the day to give outdoor relief. This is the way in which the money of the British taxpayer is squandered in very considerable sums amongst a very considerable number of people. Why not treat this office like that of the Chaplain to the Castle of Dublin, in relation to which there is this foot-note—
  "This allowance is personal to the present Chaplain, and will not be continued to his successor?"
  If, to-night, we put in the Votes that the office of Ulster King-of-Arms will not be filled up when Sir Bernard Burke ceases to hold it, there might be some reason for future Committees of Supply to pass the Vote over rather lightly; but as long as there is a risk that this office will be filled up again, it is perfectly certain that successive Committees will give the Vote their attention, and the Minister of the day the trouble of getting up to defend something which he knows to be perfectly indefensible. I think the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary should go so far as to say that the Department will undertake that when Sir Bernard Burke ceases to hold this office it shall not be filled up. This gentleman seems to be very liberally paid, because, besides the £750 he gets as Ulster King-of-Arms, he is paid £500 as the Keeper of State Papers in the Irish Record Office. Taking everything into account he has a very comfortable competency for a gentleman who seems to be very inoffensive, not to have much intelligence, but who is really a burlesque upon public officials.
  DR. TANNER: There does not appear to be any feeling of animosity amongst hon. Gentlemen sitting on these Benches against Sir Bernard Burke. On the contrary, everybody appears to coincide in the view
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  that Sir Bernard Burke is an extremely inoffensive gentleman. We have also heard, in the course of this really interesting debate, that another gentleman, a Mr. O'Hart, who has a love for genealogical research, and is good at supplying pedigrees of distinguished people, would be much more suitable for this post than Sir Bernard Burke. Mr. O'Hart, we are told, has looked up the genealogy of Her Majesty, and discovered that she is descended from Moses—
  THE CHAIRMAN: I must ask the hon. Gentleman to address himself seriously to the Vote before the Committee.
  DR. TANNER: Mr. Courtney, the reason why I called attention to Mr. O'Hart is that he has published a volume dealing with this very question of genealogy, which Sir Bernard Burke has never done. If you want to have a really good man in the absurd position of Ulster King-of-Arms, why not have the best man you can possibly get? If this country is called upon to pay the sum of £750 in order that Privy Councillors and others may get their pedigrees drawn up, it would be better to get the most capable man to do the job. For that very reason I have to advocate the cause of Mr. O'Hart against that of Sir Bernard Burke; if the post is to be kept up, it ought to be filled by the best man. There is another curious functionary provided for in this Vote—namely, the Athlone Pursuivant-of-Arms. One of my hon. Friends has asked what this office is. This may be an office in the Militia for aught we know. What is the position that this gentleman holds? There is also a very singular fact in connection with this account. The Athlone Pursuivant-of-Arms gets £20 in lieu of official fees. It does seem to me to be absurd that this Athlone Pursuivant-of-Arms, whoever he may happen to be, should be kept in office if there are no fees; if the office is a sinecure, it ought to be done away with. If the services of the Athlone Pursuivant-of-Arms are required by no one, and if, in lieu of employment, he has to be paid £20 a year, it is a palpable absurdity to keep up the office. There are many items of this character in the Estimates—in the English and Scotch Estimates—but surely it does not at all follow that because you happen to have

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  absurdities in one section of the Estimates, you should try to perpetuate them in another. Sir Bernard Burke has given great satisfaction on many occasions. I do not like to speak at too great length, but there are two or three facts in connection with Sir Bernard Burke I should like to mention. He was the man who originated the celebrated Dublin botanical—
  THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Gentleman must be aware that his remarks are not pertinent to the Vote before the Committee. If he persists in irrelevancy, I must call upon him to resume his seat.
  DR. TANNER: I had no intention of overstepping the limits of Order; on the contrary, I was only trying to illustrate what I was saying. My desire always is to keep in Order, and I now bow to your ruling, Mr. Courtney. I sincerely hope that those items will be erased from the Estimates. I will not detain the Committee longer.
  MR. J. O'CONNOR: If my hon. Friend (Mr. Clancy) goes to a division, I shall follow him into the Lobby with very great pleasure indeed; but only through a sense of esprit de corps shall I do so. I sincerely hope that we shall be able to prevail on my hon. Friend to withdraw his opposition to this Vote. This Ulster King-of-Arms is, to my mind, a relic of old decency in Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland took great pains to show that he was quite unacquainted with the duties of this office, which has occupied the attention of the Committee so long; in fact, it appears to me the Ulster King-of-Arms has nothing else to do but draw his salary, and that he does that with the greatest possible precision. At the same time, I do not think the Irish people are sufficiently democratic yet to abandon all the pride, pomp, and circumstance of glorious war in which they were once accustomed to indulge. Now, the Ulster King-of-Arms is a very martial term, and I am inclined to think the Irish people will stick to their martial terms as long as they possibly can. The right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary also said that this office is one of the appanages of the Household of the Lord Lieutenant. If we are to play at Royalty in Ireland, let us stick to all the appanages. I should be very sorry
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  to abolish the Ulster King-of-Arms if he adds éclat to the many parties we have at Dublin Castle from time to time. I have no doubt he impresses with very great solemnity the minds of the gay and festive young ladies and gentlemen who assemble at the Viceregal Lodge from time to time. Now, Mr. Courtney, I would not like to see such offices abolished, so long as we are to have a Lord Lieutenant at all. I believe it is contemplated by both sides of this House to dispense with the position of Viceroy of Ireland, if possible, in the very near future. Then let the Ulster King-of-Arms, and the Athlone Pursuivant-of-Arms, and the kettle-drummer, and the rest go with the Lord Lieutenant; but, until you are prepared to abolish the Viceregal system altogether, let us have everything that adds to its lustre and its glory. I have never seen the Lord Lieutenant in State in Ireland; but I believe that at times, it is a very glorious sight. I believe it pleases our people, because our people are not a democratic people. They have not been impregnated with your principles of democracy at all. The Irish people are by tradition and by religion, aristocratic.[A laugh.] It is a fact, and let us not deceive ourselves. The Irish people are by race, religion, and tradition, aristocratic; at all events, they are not democratic in the sense the word is understood in England. ["Oh!"] You do not understand the true meaning of democracy. The Irish people have never been inoculated with democracy. Let us have our Ulster King-of-Arms. If my hon. Friend (Mr. Clancy) recognizes the truth of these statements, he will withdraw his Motion, although, as I said at the outset, if he presses it to a division, I shall be bound to follow him into the Lobby.
  MR. O'HANLON: I must join my hon. Friends in protesting against this Vote. The Conservatives in the district from which I come know little about the office of Sir Bernard Burke, and the Liberals are just in the same position as far as that is concerned. The Chief Secretary is unable to explain the duties of the Ulster King-of-Arms, and that, to my mind, is a most extraordinary fact. I cannot understand how it is possible for the Committee to be

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  asked to vote away money for an office which is of no real advantage to the people of Ireland. I trust that the division which is to be taken will lead to the abolition of this absurd office.
  MR. CONYBEARE: I am bound to say I listened with great interest to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for South Tipperary (Mr. J. O'Conner) in which he advocated the retention of aristocratic usages of which Conservatives usually think there is too little in Ireland. [Interruption.] I also listened with interest to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland, a speech which may be summed up in a couple of lines, which are probably familiar to hon. Gentlemen opposite, as lines written by one of their Leaders not many years ago—
  "Let laws and learning, wealth and
  commerce die,
  But save, oh save, our old nobility!"
  [Interruption.]
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: I rise to Order, Mr. Courtney. I wish to know whether the hon. Gentleman, being in possession of the Committee, is not entitled to proceed without interruption?
  THE CHAIRMAN: Of course, there is only one answer. He is entitled to proceed.
  MR. CONYBEARE: I thought that would be your ruling, Mr. Courtney. I shall certainly proceed. We have heard from the hon. Gentleman the Member for South Tipperary an interesting disquisition upon the difference between democracy in England and in Ireland. ["Question!"] I will not follow him in that respect, because I desire, as far as possible, to keep within the ruling of the Chairman, and to address myself with all seriousness to this absorbing topic. I find, however, a little difficulty in addressing myself in a serious spirit to the question of paying the Ulster King-of-Arms £920 a-year, the Athlone Pursuivant-of-Arms £20 a-year, and sundry allowances for kettle-drummers and other personages of a similar kind. Anybody who has been in the habit of watching with care Royal pageants must be struck with the ridiculous aspects they assume. [Interruption.] If I were not afraid of a fresh howl from hon. Gentlemen opposite I would comment upon the tomfoolery of these Royal exhibi-
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  tions. No one with common sense can look seriously upon these matters; and therefore we are bound, in the fulfilment of our duty as the Representatives of persons who do not enjoy large salaries such as the Ulster King-of-Arms and such like people get for doing nothing, and as the Representatives of persons who are not in the habit of having their names genealogically and historically reported upon in the pages of Sir Bernard Burke, to protest against the continual voting of money for these ridiculous personages. I want to know who and what the Athlone Pursuivant-of-Arms is? I believe the question has already been asked twice this evening; but if it has been asked twice it has not been answered, and that is all the more reason why it should be asked a third time. It is incomprehensible that we should be seriously asked to vote away money for people whose names and duties we cannot ascertain. I suggest that the allowance to the Ulster King-of-Arms be refused and given to somebody who does something. I observe that there is an office cleaner who is paid £30 a-year, and a porter and messenger who receives £76 a-year. As it may be taken for granted that the office cleaner and porter and messenger do five or six times as much work as the Ulster King-of-Arms and the Athlone Pursuivant-of-Arms, I would humbly suggest that we should discontinue the salaries to the latter functionaries, and apply some portion of the money to those who work for their living, and let the remainder go back into the pockets of the people who are now called upon to supply these salaries.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 62; Noes 172: Majority 110.—(Div. List, No. 29.)
  Original Question again proposed.
  MR. DILLON: I cannot allow this Vote for the sum of £40 for the Insignia and Banners of the Order of St. Patrick, and £20 for Emblazoning Arms, &c, to pass without dividing against it, at least unless some assurance is given that it will not be repeated. I do not know what are the customs of this country in matters of this kind; but I do know something of the Order of St. Patrick, and I feel bound to protest against spending any further sums of

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  public money on that barren insignia. The wish of the people of Ireland is that, at any rate, no more money should be spent upon it. But I wish to say, besides, that there is a principle involved in this sum of £60, because from time to time very much larger sums are called for in connection with the Order on the installation of Knights, when any Imperial persons happen to be in Ireland. Therefore, with the view of insuring that no more money shall be wasted on this Order in Ireland in future, I shall move that the Vote be reduced by the sum of £60.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £2,456, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1887, for the Salaries of the Officers and Attendants of the Household of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland and other Expenses."—(Mr. Dillon.)
  MR. MOLLOY: I have no particular wish to see the Order of St. Patrick abolished. I think if the Lord Lieutenant is desirous of retaining these honours that the least he can do is to pay for them himself. We are, however, called upon to pay, and to this I strongly object. If a man wishes to have a banner in St. Patrick's Cathedral for his family, I do not see why he should come upon the taxpayers of the country for the expense; nor do I see why, if he wants his arms emblazoned for the purpose of magnifying himself in the eyes of those who think as he does in these matters, he should come almost as a pauper and ask the people to pay for them. The people never see these banners and never see these arms; in fact, they knew nothing about them, and it does seem to me a mean thing for men who want honours for their own gratification to call on the public to defray the cost. We are called upon year after year for these sums, although it is true that the present demand is not a large one. As far as my observation goes, these honours are not granted in Ireland for distinguished services. They are merely political grants, and I ask the Chief Secretary whether it is quite fair to call on the people of Ireland to pay for these honours? The noble Lord the Chancellor of the Exchequer belongs to a family of renown, and I put it to him whether he does not
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  think it right to put an end to this scandal and allow these gentlemen to pay for them themselves? I ask the Chief Secretary to give us some assurance that this scandal shall appear no more on the Estimates.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH): It is not the case that when a person is made a Knight of St. Patrick the cost of his receiving that honour is paid by the country, unless special circumstances arise, in which case a special Vote is proposed. As a rule, the fees paid by the Knight amount to £300; and, besides, he has generally to pay £250 or £300 for the collar and badge. These are honours appreciated by those who receive them. The charge in this Vote is for a banner, a helmet, and so on, which are placed in St. Patrick's Hall, Dublin Castle, just as the banners of Knights of the Garter are placed in St. George's Chapel, Windsor; and they cost very little indeed as compared with the large expense charged on the Knights themselves. All I would say is that if the Order of St. Patrick is to be maintained, and I understand that it is the desire of hon. Members that it should be, you must have this expenditure. How far it should be borne by the country is a matter for consideration.
  MR. CLANCY: I object to the Order of St. Patrick altogether. I have here a list of the members of the Order to whom I should like to call attention. Excluding the Royal Princes and one or two others, amongst them Viscount Powerscourt, there is scarcely any one of the Order deserving of the respect of the people. The Order is composed of men who stand in the position of convicted rack-renters.
  THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is using language unworthy of this Assembly. He must withdraw it.
  MR. CLANCY: I withdraw the words in obedience to your ruling. I was explaining that these persons have been found guilty of having extorted exorbitant rack-rents for many years past, and, accordingly, their rents have been cut down by the Land Commission. For instance, there is the Earl of Kenmare, and I ask what respect can Irishmen have for men like him? The Earl of Cork is in a similar position; and then there is Lord Wolseley, who some time ago expressed the intention of leading

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  a portion of the people of Ireland against the Queen's troops. ["Question!"] This is the question; and I say, further, that to this charge Lord Wolseley has never given a denial. There is also the noble Lord who has a residence in my constituency, but who is very seldom there, and he is about the greatest obstacle to the welfare of the little town near which he lives. What title have these gentlemen to be Knights of St. Patrick? Let them call themselves by any other name than this. I think that half my objection to the Order would vanish if this anti-Irish gang called themselves by any other name than that of the Apostle of Ireland. It is absurd that, in the 19th century, Parliament should vote money for the sake of having a few gentlemen pretending to be Knights and ready to wage war on horseback, when most of them can hardly keep their seats on the steadiest old nags that can be bought in Ireland. I shall persist in the Motion for the reduction of the Vote.
  MR. M. J. KENNY: I remember that last year there were two installations of noblemen in the Order of St. Patrick, and it was made a pretext for expending £1,000 in doing up a room in Dublin Castle for the purpose. My hon. Friend, therefore, is quite right when he says that the expenditure does not end at £60. It goes on, and no one knows where it stops. In the Estimates of last year there was a charge of £1,000 on account of the installation of these gentlemen. Although they themselves paid £500, they put the country to the expense of £1,000 for preparing the room in Dublin Castle for their gratification; and this is the reason why I, for one, oppose this Vote. The amount of taxation upon the people makes it essential on our part to oppose this useless outlay. I am bound to say that if these gentlemen would pay for the cost of installation there would be no objection on my part to their being made Knights of St. Patrick; but so long as the cost is thrown upon the country, so long shall I resist this Vote.
  MR. DILLON: The right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary says that the hon. Member for King's County (Mr. Molloy) does not object to this Order. I, however, do object to it, and I say that it is a distinct grievance that the country should be called on to
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  pay large sums in connection with it. I object to the Vote chiefly because I object to the Order. It is an Order of so-called merit, and is conferred upon men who are detested by the people of Ireland. Not a single individual who enjoys the respect and confidence of the people of Ireland is a Knight of St. Patrick, and I will go further and say you could not get any person enjoying the respect of the Irish people to accept the Knighthood. As sensible men we ought to get rid of this Order at once, and the fact that you cannot get a single man who enjoys the confidence of the people to accept the Knighthood is alone sufficient to condemn any Order; and to call upon the Committee to support such an imposture as this is mischievous.
  MR. O'HANLON: I observe that the amount charged for insignia and banners for last year was £50; whereas this year the charge is £40; and I should like to know what is the cause of this reduction? With regard to the insignia, we have had no explanation whatever from the right hon. Baronet as to why this expense is charged upon the Estimates at all. And although the right hon. Baronet has told us that everyone who is installed as a Knight of St. Patrick has to pay fees amounting to £300, he has not explained whether this amount goes to relieve the taxes of the people? These are two points which I think the Chief Secretary for Ireland should fully explain.
  MR. P. J. POWER: I think the Irish Representatives would be wanting in duty if they did not protest against this charge. It would be interesting to know what the Members of this Order have done for Ireland, because it seems to me that it is on account of their having done a good deal of good for England that they have been made Knights of St. Patrick. In my opinion, they have done nothing whatever for Ireland, where they have simply acted as an English garrison. Why, then, should we be called upon to pay anything towards the expenses of these Knights? I say that it is our duty to enter a protest against this sham, which most Irishmen look upon as a disgrace and dishonour.
  MR. A. BLANE: We are here asked to vote money not for the use of the Lord Lieutenant, but for a purpose which we are told is highly or-

  285
  namental. I say it is strange that these sums should be uselessly expended in the face of so many complaints of bad trade and want of employment on the part of the people throughout the country, and which is constantly made the excuse for not voting money for useful purposes. I protest against these Votes for ornaments in society; they are utterly worthless, and the sooner they are brought to an end the better. This Vote is only one instance of the way these persons foist themselves upon the public purse, and I shall, for the reasons I have given, vote with my hon. Friend against this charge.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 56; Noes 165: Majority 109.—(Div. List, No. 30.)
  Original Question again proposed.
  MR. CRILLY: Before we leave this Vote I desire to enter my protest against a system associated with it which I consider to be unjust and vicious. It appears to me, in studying these Estimates, that establishments such as the one we are discussing are merely vehicles for reckless expenditure. They are, it seems to me, establishments for providing snug places for various persons—they are offices in which the duties are in an inverse ratio to the pay. The duties are light and the pay is heavy; and not merely do we find gentlemen associated with one situation such as this, but we find them cropping up continually like Jack-in-the-box. They are, to use an illustration which was adopted some time ago, as thick in these Estimates as barnacles on the bottom of a Transatlantic liner. I intend to move the reduction of the Vote before I have done. I find that the Master of the Horse is put down here to receive £200, and I also find that, in the Vote we have passed, this gentleman is also down as Deputy Ranger of the Curragh of Kildare at a salary of £276. I find, further, that a gentleman described as Surgeon to the Household, is down for £100, and in addition to that I see he receives a salary of £245, and a large sum for travelling expenses, as Surgeon to the Dublin Metropolitan Police, and £150 from the Public Education Department in Ireland. Before we leave this Vote I want to enter my protest against it, because I object on principle to the coupling of offices in the way I have
  286
  described. It is, in my opinion, wrong and immoral; and amongst other things it has this injurious effect, that it prevents deserving men from receiving salaries. The salaries go to people who are in occupation of four or five or even half-a-dozen different positions in the Public Departments in Ireland. To put myself in Order I will move that the Vote be reduced by £362, which is made up of £200 paid to the Master of the Horse, £100 paid to the Surgeon of the Household, and £61 13 s. 3d. paid to the State Porter.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £2,154, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for the Salaries of the Officers and Attendants of the Household of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland and other Expenses."—(Mr. Crilly.)
  MR. SEXTON: No one in this part of the House will disagree with the remarks of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Crilly). It occurs to me that the observations he has made upon this Vote could, with equal justice, propriety, and relevance be applied to every other Vote for Ireland; but as this question can be raised on almost every other Vote, and as we have had a long discussion upon the matter before the Committee, perhaps my hon. Friend will not persist in his Amendment, but allow the Vote to be taken.
  MR. A. BLANE: I find that under this Vote the Queen's Plates in Ireland are provided—["Order, Order!"]
  THE CHAIRMAN: Does the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Crilly) withdraw his Amendment?
  MR. CRILLY: Yes; of course, Sir.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Original Question put, and agreed to.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £17,866, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Offices of the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland in Dublin and London, and Subordinate Departments."
  MR. SEXTON: My hon. Friend the Member for North Westmeath (Mr. Tuite) endeavoured to raise his Motion preliminary to going

  287
  into Committee with regard to the prisoners in the Barbavilla case. My hon. Friend was unable to go into that matter at that time, and it was ruled that he could do it on this Vote. I would ask the Government whether they think that that inquiry can be entered upon conveniently at this hour? My hon. Friend is willing to go on with it if the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland thinks it desirable.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH): I feel there is some reasonableness in the appeal the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Sexton) has made. This is an important Vote, and the question the hon. Member (Mr. Tuite) proposes to raise will lead to considerable discussion; but we have been a very long time on the Votes we have taken, and the nature of the discussion we have had can hardly be said to have been important. I would rather appeal to the hon. Gentleman to endeavour to make progress with the Votes which are coming on. There are some following the one before the Committee which are not of great importance. I refer to the Votes dealing with the Record Office, the Registrar General's Office, the Ordnance Survey—and which, I think, may be taken practically as unopposed Votes. If hon. Gentlemen opposite will allow us to take those Votes, we will consent to postpone this Vote, and also the Vote for the Irish Local Government Board, so that they may be discussed at a more convenient hour. I think, however, we may be allowed to make some further progress with Supply.
  MR. SEXTON: I understand from my hon. Friends around me that they would be willing for all the Votes mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman to be taken without discussion, except the Registrar General's Vote.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  (12.) £819, to complete the sum for the Charitable Donations and Bequests Office, Ireland.
  (13.) £2,414, to complete the sum for the Record Office, Ireland.
  MR. DILLON: I do not wish to discuss this Vote for the Public Record Office; but I desire to ask the Government if they can give us any in-
  288
  formation as to who it is proposed shall fill the vacancy which has taken place? The position is an exceedingly important one, and I have heard a rumour on the question which I should like to have contradicted or verified.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Sir MICHAEL HICKS - BEACH): I do not think the matter is absolutely settled.
  MR. DILLON: The appointment, I assume, rests with the right hon. Gentleman?
  SIR, MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH: I think the Lord Lieutenant makes the appointment, with the consent of the Treasury.
  MR. DILLON: I will not prolong the discussion, but I trust that the Chief Secretary will give us the information I seek as early as possible.
  Vote agreed to.
  (14.) £8,826, to complete the sum for the Valuation and Boundary Survey, Ireland.
  Resolutions to be reported.

  CLASS III.—LAW AND JUSTICE.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £29,041, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, of Criminal Prosecutions and other Law Charges in Ireland, including certain Allowances under the Act 15 and 16 Vic. c. 83."
  MR. DILLON:: Surely it is not proposed to take this Vote tonight?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Lord RANDOLPH CHURCHILL): It is proposed to postpone the contentious Irish Votes, and to proceed with the English Votes.
  MR. DILLON: That would not be in accordance with the arrangement just arrived at. Several English Members below the Gangway on this (the Opposition) side of the House have come to us Irish Members to ask if the Irish Votes were likely to occupy the rest of the night. We have told them that they would, and I therefore do not think it fair, when those English Members have gone away, that we should take important English Votes in their absence.
  LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL: The hon. Member cannot expect the Government to agree to such an arrange-

  289
  ment as that which he has brought forward, and which he alleges has been arrived at. We are most anxious to meet the legitimate views of hon. Members, and my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary for Ireland has agreed that the Vote which might be expected to give rise to some discussion shall be postponed until to-morrow, when it will be more convenient for hon. Members opposite to discuss it; but we obviously cannot meet the expectations of those hon. Members who think that the Government should at this hour stop all further progress with Supply. Our progress to-night has been extremely slow, and I do not think I am making an unreasonable demand on hon. Members when I ask them to proceed further with the Votes.
  MR. DILLON: What are the Votes it is proposed to go on with? The Votes for Law Charges in England have all been passed.
  MR. CONYBEARE: I think we have a right to protest against the course the Government propose. I know the noble Lord (Lord Randolph Churchill) is a master of surprises, so that nothing that he can do is likely very much to astonish any of us. I came here this evening under the fall idea and impression that we were to discuss the Irish Votes, and not the English Votes; and it is a very extraordinary thing that at this hour of the night we should be asked to turn our attention from what has been occupying it all the evening, and to go on with English Votes which we had been led to believe would not be taken. Many of us are not prepared to discuss, with a proper amount of care and attention, the English Votes which we did not expect to come on, and which are only brought before us now by surprise. This is another of those un-Constitutional practices to which the noble Lord is so partial. I must protest against his action; and, therefore, I will move to report Progress.
  MR. J. O'CONNOR: I certainly am surprised at the course taken by the noble Lord, and the reason for that surprise is this. I remember when the noble Lord occupied a place on this Bench below the Gangway, and other noble Lords and Marquesses sat on the Bench he now occupies above the Gangway—["Order, order!"]
  THE CHAIRMAN: The course the discussion is taking is altogether irregular. The Vote before the Committee is the first Vote in Class III.
  Several hon. MEMBERS: No; Progress.
  THE CHAIRMAN: The Vote has not been withdrawn. It is irregular to go on discussing the course the Government propose to take.
  MR. CONYBEARE: I moved to report Progress.
  THE CHAIRMAN: No; no such Motion reached me.
  MR. CONYBEARE: I certainly moved to report Progress.
  Several hon. MEMBERS: Yes; Progress.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I did not put the Motion.
  MR.CONYBEARE: I certainly moved it.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Conybeare.)
  MR. JOHN MORLEY: It seems to me that the position of the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not appear to be an unreasonable one. I think, as the noble Lord indicated, we ought to be now prepared to get through a certain amount of Business so as to leave more time for discussion in the future upon those important Votes which are postponed and which are contentious. I would, therefore, suggest to my hon. Friend (Mr. Conybeare) that he would do well to withdraw his Motion.
  MR. DILLON: The Government say that the Vote before us is the first in Class III. I think the whole of the English Votes in Class III. have been voted. Is it the first Irish Vote that they propose to take?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH): There is some mistake. We were not aware that the first Votes in Class III. had been taken, and that the first of the remaining Votes in that Class was that for Criminal Prosecutions in Ireland. We, therefore, propose to take the first Vote in Class IV.
  MR. DILLON: And what is that?
  An hon. MEMBER: Public Education in England.
  MR. DILLON: To tell us that the Vote for Public Education in England, one of the largest and most important Votes on the Estimates, should be taken sub silentio, is most absurd. I must say that the Government have endeavoured to make a most singular bargain, and a most extraordinary feeling appears to prevail on the opposite Benches.
  An hon. MEMBER: You have not the control of the House.
  MR. DILLON: Someone over there says we have not the control of the House. That is perfectly true. But I wish to point out to the Committee, as I have already said, that some English Members came to us earlier in the evening and asked this question—whether or not we thought that the Irish Votes would occupy the whole of our time to-night? We, of course, answered in the affirmative, and that answer went round amongst hon. Members. As a mere matter of courtesy to these hon. Gentlemen who have gone home on the understanding that the Irish Votes would occupy the whole of the evening, I think we are bound to postpone these important English Estimates. It is a very common arrangement, as hon. Members know, to give each other information of this kind, as far as we can anticipate the course of proceeding on matters in which we are especially interested. We were notoriously within our knowledge in saying that if the Votes were taken as they were on the Paper, and discussed in the ordinary manner, the Irish Votes would consume the whole of the evening. Even if we had discussed them in a much more perfunctory manner than we have adopted these Irish Votes would naturally have consumed the whole of the evening. I maintain that it was a legitimate thing to tell English Members, when they applied to us, that the Irish Votes would consume the whole of the evening. We have given this information for the convenience of English Gentlemen; and they, therefore, went home under the impression that the English Education Vote could not come on until to-morrow.
  MR. F. S. POWELL: I hope the Committee will allow me to remind them that already considerable discussion has taken place on the Vote for English Education. The right hon. Gentleman the late Vice President of the Council (Sir Lyon Playfair) made the
  292
  usual official statement in an extremely valuable speech, and one full of detail, in the late Session. The present Vice President also submitted his views, and other Members laid before the Committee facts and arguments in support of their opinions. I, therefore, do trust that the former discussion may be regarded as sufficient, and that this Vote may pass without discussion.
  MR. J. O'CONNOR: I, to some extent, agree with the hon. Member who has just sat down. No doubt the late Vice President of the council (Sir Lyon Playfair) did make a very interesting statement. It was one to which I listened very attentively; but we must remember that that statement was not made in the Parliament now sitting. It was made in the late Parliament, and there are many new Members in this House who did not hear it, who have not read it, and who have come amongst us with totally different views with regard to education to those which were entertained by hon. Members who sat here last Session. Under the circumstances I think that facilities should be given to those hon. Members to discuss the question of English education at a time when their speeches will have effect. I think upon this matter they ought to be allowed to put themselves right with their constituency. I appeal to the noble Lord (Lord Randolph Churchill) to allow Progress to be reported. ["Order, order!"] I submit that I am in Order; but as I do not wish to come into conflict with the Chair I shall not continue the remarks I had intended to make. I wish to put myself right with the Chairman; and I wish to say that I distinctly heard the Motion for Progress made. In pursuing my argument in reference to that matter I do not think I am out of Order.
  THE CHAIRMAN: The Motion was not put from the Chair.
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: With regard to the Motion to report Progress, rather than proceed with the Votes in Class IV., I must say I am astonished at the condition of memory of the noble Lord (Lord Randolph Churchill). I would remind him that on two separate occasions I pointedly put questions to him, and to another right hon. Member of the Cabinet sitting on the Front Bench, as to the order in which these Votes were to be taken.

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  The noble Lord informed us that the Army Estimates would be taken first, the Navy Estimates next, and then the Civil Service Estimates in the order in which they appeared on the Paper. Trusting to that assurance, I, for one, have relied upon the Estimates being taken exactly in their proper order. So far was I from anticipating the possibility of Class IV. being taken this evening that I have not brought with me papers I had intended to use in regard to the case of a certain school in which I take some interest. I should not be able to do justice to the question in the absence of these papers. With regard to the second Vote in Class IV., it is within my knowledge that hon. Members who take considerable interest in technical education in Ireland have reserved themselves for another day, expecting that it would be impossible for Class IV. to be reached this evening. Under these circumstances it appears to me hardly fair that we should be asked suddenly to consider Estimates with regard to which we have not thought it necessary even to look at the papers. If any further Supply is to be taken, I trust that we shall proceed with the Votes as they are on the Paper. I am sorry that the pledges given by the Front Bench opposite are considered by right hon. Gentlemen opposite as so little binding upon the Government.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Lord RANDOLPH CHURCHILL): No doubt the Government have made a mistake in this matter, and it is one which they are not likely very soon to be guilty of again. They sought to consult the convenience of hon. Members opposite by postponing a certain Vote in which those hon. Members were interested. They believed that hon. Members opposite desired that Vote to come on at a convenient hour to-morrow. A request for the postponement of this Vote was made at half-past 12, and an arrangement was made in a space of time that did not cover more than a minute. It evidently was the intention of hon. Gentlemen opposite that these proceedings in Committee of Supply should come to a conclusion there and then; but that was certainly not the intention of the Government. Half-an-hour has now been taken up with frivolous discussion as to whether Committee of Supply should proceed or stop. Hon.
  294
  Members should be clear as to what their attitude is. An hon. Gentleman opposite has risen in his place and made a demand on the Government which is altogether unreasonable. ["No, no!"] Yes; that is the position taken up by the hon. Gentleman. The demand he makes, so far as the Government are concerned, it is impossible to comply with. We do not feel at all inclined to give way, without very strong protest, to a demand which appears to have another object than to prevent the Supplies of the year being voted with expedition and decency. As to what has fallen from the hon. Member for East Donegal (Mr. Arthur O'Connor)—namely, that he received an assurance from the Government that the Votes would be proceeded with in the order in which they appear upon the Paper, I must say that, although we entered into a contrary arrangement with the hon. Member's Friends just now, we very much regret it after what has happened. We did it to consult what we thought was the convenience of hon. Members opposite; but for the future we will be very careful not to take any Votes out of their order.
  MR. SEXTON: We understood that the Votes would be taken in a certain order. Certain Irish Members have, in reply to inquiries from English Members sitting not on one side of the House alone, but on both sides, informed them that the discussion of the Irish Votes would occupy the whole evening. If these English Members came down to-morrow and found that over £250,000 had been taken for education in England without discussion, they would have a perfect right to consider themselves ill-treated. I can understand the anxiety of the noble Lord (Lord Randolph Churchill) to get on with Supply. If any of us were in his position we should feel the same anxiety; but I would ask the noble Lord to look back upon the evening and to say whether, as a matter of fact, the progress we have made has been really so slow as to warrant all these comments? When you get 14 Votes, many of them highly contentious, it is only right to say that good progress has been made. Hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House will confirm me when I say that to take 14 Votes of this kind in one evening is not a bad night's work.

  295
  As I said, I understand the anxiety of the noble Lord; but I think I may claim the right to say that in representing facts from the Front Bench opposite he ought to endeavour to make at least an approximate approach to accuracy. He says that the Government agreed to postpone certain Votes for our convenience. What happened was this. When the Vote for the Chief Secretary's Office was called on I rose and submitted to the Government whether they thought it would be convenient—["Oh, oh!"] Yes; those were my very words. I submitted to the Government whether they thought it would be convenient to go on with a Vote of this importance at such a late hour? I said that my hon. Friend the Member for Westmeath (Mr. Tuite) was willing, if they desired it, to enter upon the consideration of the Barbavilla case, and I appealed to the Leaders of the Government whether they considered that such a discussion should be taken at such an hour? Well, they evidently did not think it would be convenient. I did not; in fact, nobody did. A discussion of that kind once entered upon certainly could not be finished to-night, and no one would have gained anything by the arrangement. I put it to the noble Lord, therefore, whether the Irish Members did not appeal to the Government in a spirit, not impeding, but meant to facilitate the progress of Supply? ["Oh, oh!"] I put it to the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach). He rose and said that four Votes were not contentious. We gave way upon those Votes, and allowed the Government to take them without discussion. The noble Lord seems anxious to make a statement to the public. Well, he has made it; and I make mine. The action we took showed that we had no desire whatever to impede the Government; but that, so far as was consistent with the due discussion of Votes on which questions of great importance are to be raised, we were willing to give the Government, from now to the close of Supply, every reasonable facility for getting through the Business.
  MR. DILLON: I must say that the account given by the noble Lord (Lord Randolph Churchill) of what took place is extremely inaccurate. I do not mean to insinuate that it is wilfully inaccurate; but it is distinctly
  296
  wrong. What took place was this—and I am open to correction if I myself am inaccurate in the statement I make—but I wish to give my version of what transpired, seeing that the noble Lord has made a rather angry charge against us, a charge which I maintain is absolutely unfounded—the Chief Secretary got up and said the Government were willing to withdraw the contentious Irish Votes provided we allowed certain other Irish Votes which were named as Votes of an uncontentious character to be disposed of. That is exactly what took place. When the Votes were put one of them was found to be of a contentious character. We pointed out the fact, and the Chief Secretary, admitting the justice of our representation, assented to its postponement. Three Irish Votes were therefore taken without discussion, Nothing was said about the Votes in Class IV. What I complain of is this—that during the negotiations which passed across the floor of this House—and every hon. Member knows that I am stating the truth—three uncontentious Votes were disposed of without comment. Not one word of discussion took place upon them, and then the Government tried to spring upon us a number of Votes of which no mention had been made. I say it is unfair and unjust on the part of the noble Lord the Chancellor of the Exchequer to turn round upon us and say that we have not acted loyally. I think, so far as the Irish Members are concerned, we have a right to resent such an accusation. It may suit the noble Lord to charge the Irish Members with Obstruction; but let him try it. We have not obstructed, and he is perfectly aware of the fact. He has shown us a good example in this respect. In former years I have sat here for many long hours whilst he has taught us the science and art of Obstruction, and perhaps the time may come when we may benefit by his teaching and follow in his footsteps. There is not the slightest reason why we should be bullied by charges of this kind when we have adhered most loyally to our part of the bargain. We certainly shall have to take a division against proceeding with the Vote before the Committee.
  MR. CLANCY: There are certain questions involved in the Votes in Class IV. in which I take

  297
  great interest. For instance, there is the question of the Science and Art Department. [Laughter.] Hon. Gentlemen opposite may laugh; perhaps they do not know that our Science and Art Department in Dublin is governed from London. Yes; it is. It is actually governed from London just as much as is any other Irish Department. Then this Vote for Public Education concerns a large number of Irish people in England; and while we Irish Members are here we are determined, so far as we can, to safeguard the interests of our fellow-countrymen in this country. I can only say, with reference to what has fallen from the hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. F. S. Powell), that I hope his constituency, to whom he has given the idea that he is a supporter of denominational education, will watch his conduct this evening, and see that, when an opportunity is offered for forwarding the cause of denominational education, he has taken the very reverse course, and has insisted on the Education Vote being taken as it stands on the Paper without discussion and comment. ["Order, order!"] If I am out of Order I presume the Chairman will correct me.
  THE CHAIRMAN: The Question before the Committee is that I report Progress, and ask leave to sit again.
  MR. CLANCY: I am willing to obey you, Sir; but I am not willing to obey the instructions of amateur Chairmen. I repeat that there are several questions on these Estimates that we are quite as much interested in as we are in Irish questions, expressly so called.
  MR. CONWAY: I myself am very much interested in this question of education, and am prepared to bring forward several questions which I think will commend themselves to the Vice President of the Privy Council (Sir Henry Holland), if I have a fair opportunity of doing so. We to-night understood from the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) that in giving way on these Votes which we have just passed, on one of which I had intended to speak—I have voluminous notes here which I had intended to use—I say that we understood in giving way that only Irish Votes would be dealt with. I am prepared to deal with the Education Question even now; but
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  it is only fair to take into consideration the interests of those English Members who have been led astray with regard to the action of the Committee to-night, and who have gone away believing that we should not proceed beyond the Irish Votes. These hon. Gentlemen would feel a serious grievance if no opportunity is given them of discussing such an important Vote as this for education. As to what has fallen from the hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. F. S. Powell), I would point out that last Session we had no opportunity of discussing the Education Question at all. ["Oh, oh!"] Hon. Gentlemen may say "Oh, oh!" but the "Oh, oh's!" were not here then. They know nothing about it. Where ignorance is bliss it is folly to be wise. A statement was made by a Minister of the Crown on the Education Estimates in the last Session of Parliament; but we who take an interest in the question were limited to one speech. The speeches made were so very few that they attracted no public attention at the time. Only some half-a-dozen Members spoke, and their remarks were mainly devoted to the subject of technical education. On the question of education as it stands we shall be able, if we have a proper opportunity, to enter into the particulars of the grievances we have in regard to the Science and Art Department and the ordinary school institution. The hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. F. S. Powell) knows right well that we had no opportunity of bringing up these matters in the last Parliament. No opportunity was allowed, and we depended upon the new Parliament for an opportunity being given to discuss the Votes at length. On this Education Vote I am prepared to ventilate other grievances, and there are other Gentlemen who are equally interested in the matter, and I appeal for them as well as for myself. I do protest against our being called upon at this late hour to discuss Votes of such importance, especially after the understanding which has been come to. The other day I was proud to bring forward a grievance with regard to denominational schools. There are particular cases in connection with that matter that I wish to bring forward on the Education Vote. I and others will be prepared to deal with these matters if the Government will give us a little time.
  MR. SEXTON: Does the noble Lord opposite (Lord Randolph Churchill) see any use in prolonging this discussion? Had we not much better go on with the Belfast Riots Bill, and pass it through Committee?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Lord RANDOLPH CHURCHILL): The Government have their own idea of what is best for the convenience of the Committee, and certainly are not inclined to take any suggestion, after what has happened, from that quarter.
  MR. DILLWYN: I never remember important Votes like these in Class IV., which affect our constituencies so vitally, being entered upon at so late an hour as this. I heard what took place between the hon. Member for Belfast (Mr. Sexton) and the Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach), and there seemed to me to be a clear understanding between them that the three Irish Votes which have been passed should be taken without criticism. ["No, no!"] Yes; that was what I understood. We were to take the three Irish Votes which were not contentious, and then report Progress. I certainly think it would be very unfair to go on with the Education Votes, seeing that English Members have gone away on the understanding that these Votes would not be taken. I repeat that the Vote is one which materially affects the English constituencies.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH): I thought the desire of the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn) to promote progress in Supply would be the same whatever Government was in Office; but I appear to have been mistaken. I remember very different sentiments from those which have fallen from the hon. Gentleman being expressed by him when his own Party were in power. I distinctly deny that an understanding was entered into by me to the effect that Progress would be reported after the three uncontentious Irish Votes were passed. I never said anything of the kind; on the contrary, in assenting to what I understood to be the request of the hon. Member for Belfast (Mr. Sexton) that the Vote for the Chief Secretary's Office should not be proceeded with to-night, I asked hon.
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  Members to consent to take what I believed to be three or four unopposed Votes which would obviously not occupy time, and which as a matter of fact, did not occupy more than a minute in being put from the Chair. Then I went on to say that I apprehended that in no case would the Committee consent to report Progress at so early an hour as 20 minutes to 1 o'clock. ["No, no!"] I venture to say that it must have been obvious to the Committee that it was in my mind that we should proceed with other Votes after disposing of the three uncontentious Votes relating to Ireland. I had thought that Class III. would be taken, for I was not aware that the English Votes in that class had already been voted. But when the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn) says that the Vote which it is proposed to proceed with is of an important character, and therefore ought not to be taken to-night, I would venture to remind him of the important statement made by the right hon. Gentleman the late Vice President of the Council (Sir Lyon Playfair). The Education Vote has already been discussed. I must say I am sorry I acceded to the request of the hon. Member for Belfast (Mr. Sexton), seeing the turn matters have taken. I did so with the view of promoting progress, but it seems to have had a contrary effect.
  MR. SEXTON: If the right hon. Gentleman thinks it desirable we are perfectly willing to go on with the Estimates in their proper order.
  SIR MICHAEL HICKS - BEACH: The hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) repudiates the charge of Obstruction. I do not wish to say anything about Obstruction; but I will say this—that if we are to spend as much time on the Votes which have to come as we have spent in an absolutely useless discussion of the Vote for the Lord Lieutenant's Household, it will be a very long time before we are fortunate enough to arrive at the close of the present Session.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNOR: I do not wonder at the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland refraining from all reference to Obstruction, because I suppose he wishes to spare the blushes of the noble Lord the Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord Randolph Churchill). I am surprised

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  at the argument which has come from the hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. F. S. Powell). He says that the Education Vote does not require discussion, because the late Vice President of the Council (Sir Lyon Playfair) made a long statement on the subject in the last Parliament. Surely the hon. Gentleman is not forgetful of the fact that the statement to which he refers was made by an ex-Minister in a dead Parliament. Does the hon. Gentleman mean to say that the present Parliament is exactly the same as the last Parliament? I was not particularly in love with the last Parliament; but I must say that I looked upon it as a good deal better than the present Parliament. Certainly there is a very great difference in its constituent elements, [Laughter]. Yes; that, no doubt, affords gratification to hon. Gentlemen opposite; but it affords equal satisfaction to hon. Gentlemen on these Benches. But their gratification and our satisfaction are founded upon the state of facts—namely, that this Parliament is different from the last, and that any statement of a Minister in the last Parliament is not to be taken as in any sense binding upon the present Parliament. I must say that the friends and supporters of the last Government on the Education Question would be more than astonished if they found that a demand made at half-past 1 in the morning that an opportunity should be given for the adequate discussion of the Education Vote had been refused, and that the discussion had been shelved for a Session. The constituencies at the last Election would have been very much surprised if they had known that on the first opportunity the Tory Party had of discussing the Education Question they would take the course of endeavouring to smuggle the Vote through without comment by what I will call a stratagem, because I do not like to call it a trick. I protest in the strongest manner to the addition which the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland has made to his original statement. I am sure that no one could intend less than I to cast any aspersion on the bona fides of the right hon. Gentleman. I was not present when he made his statement; and, therefore, I am not going to give an account of what happened on my own authority. Hon. Gentlemen appear
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  to be unaware that it is customary for an hon. Member to stand up in this House and express the views of hon. Gentlemen with whom he is acting. Well, all my hon. Friends agree that what the right hon. Baronet (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) believes he said, and what he may have wished to say, he really did not say. None of my hon. Friends have any recollection of his saying that he hoped the Committee would not report Progress at five minutes to 1 o'clock. The understanding was that if these non-contentious Irish Votes which had been referred to were passed, and the Vote for the Chief Secretary's Office passed over, Progress would be reported. It was on these terms that my hon. Friends abstained from debating the three Irish Votes that were passed; but, in spite of their having performed their part of the engagement, up got the Government and sprang upon them a new Class containing one of the most important Votes in the whole Estimates. Now, Sir, fortunately, we Irishmen are not fighting alone in this matter. The hon. Gentleman sitting below me (Mr. Dillwyn), who is so high an authority on the Order of this House and the Procedure of this House, joins with us in stating that this Education Vote is one in which a large number of Members in all quarters of the House consider of the highest importance. Well, a great number of Members, as has already been pointed out, have already gone away, not anticipating for a moment that the Education Votes would be reached. Hon. Members went away after putting questions on this subject to my hon. Friends. ["No, no!"] Hon. Gentlemen opposite seem to have no hesitation in casting doubt upon the statement of one of the most honourable men in the House. Let them get up and say that they do not believe my hon. Friend (Mr. Dillon), if they think it decent to do so. My hon. Friend has distinctly made the statement that several hon. Gentlemen have gone away—["Name, name!"] I would suggest to the noble Lord opposite that for the sake of decency, and to save himself from that which would be a subject of future regret, he should abstain from casting doubt upon the veracity of my hon. Friend (Mr. Dillon). [Renewed cries of "Name!"] If hon. Gentlemen

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  are to be interrupted by these—I am at a loss for a word—these noisy demonstrations, then all decent discussion is at an end. My hon. Friend said that several Liberal Members had gone away under the impression that the Education Votes could not be taken to-night. Would it not be a singular thing and a surprising thing to these hon. Gentlemen to find that in their absence, at this hour of the morning, the Committee were plunged into one of the most interesting controversies which can take place within these walls? If the noble Lord opposite (Lord Randolph Churchill) wishes to enter upon a career of bulldozing and brow-beating the Committee, I can promise him that the heroic spirit that he himself practised for five years on the Bench below me has not been lost upon us.
  MR. DILLON: On behalf of myself and my Friends, I wish to say that, whatever feeling the Government may profess to entertain with regard to our action, it is outrageously untrue to charge us with disloyalty to our engagements. It was monstrous to say that we have been guilty of any disloyalty in this transaction. The right hon. Baronet the Chief Secretary for Ireland said he would withdraw the contentious Irish Votes in order to make Progress. Those Votes were accordingly postponed in order that three other Votes might be taken. These we immediately gave him. There was no further understanding as to what should be done after that. I do not state that he or any other Member of the Government gave us to understand that after that Progress would be reported. I say that frankly. But, on the other hand, he never said one word that reached our ears that he would not report Progress. I fully understood that the Government did intend to report Progress. What occurred after that transaction? Why, the Government have clearly shown that they did not look ahead at all. Let them remember what has occurred. Class II. being disposed of, one would have thought that the Government would have looked ahead; but they proposed to take Class III., the first Vote of which is for "Criminal Prosecutions and other Law Charges in Ireland." I, of course, got up and protested against that Vote being taken, and the Government at once ad-
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  mitted that it was another contentious Irish Vote. I say they did not look ahead, and no one on the Government Bench knew what was about to be done. They had to hold a hurried consultation, and when they found that all the Votes in Class III. were contentious they passed on to Class IV. I submit that that is not the way to do business at a quarter to 1 in the morning. I say, even they themselves did not know that this Education Vote was coming on. On the face of it, it is clear that they could not originally have intended to bring on for discussion at this hour of the morning a subject which is decidedly of the greatest importance, and a subject upon which in the present Parliament not a single syllable has yet been said. The course proposed is preposterous; and I say, if the noble Lord (Lord Randolph Churchill) thinks he is going to frighten us by hinting at Obstruction, he is very much mistaken in the effect it is likely to produce.
  MR. CONYBEARE: It was I who moved the Motion to report Progress, and I wish to say a word—[Cries of "Divide, divide!" and interruption.] I wish to point out—[Cries of "Agreed!" and continued interruption.] When hon. Gentlemen opposite have finished I will go on. I was going to point out that, whatever may be the merits of this agreement with the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Chief Secretary for Ireland and hon. Members who came from Ireland, that agreement does not bind us who are English Radicals. We come here, as I have had occasion before to remark, in the fulfilment of our duty. One of the most important duties we have to fulfil is to look after the interests of our constituents in regard to this matter of education. Education is one of the most important questions that can come before the House; and when we are asked to vote money at this hour of the morning amidst an exhibition of childish impatience—when I see we are asked to vote away more than £1,000,000, which represents an enormous proportion of the total Education Vote, I think it is quite time that we insisted on Progress being reported. [Cries of "Agreed!" "Divide!" and continued interruption.] I say without the slightest hesitation that in face of the persistent interruption of hon. Gentlemen opposite no

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  decent progress can be made. There are many of us who did not have an opportunity of taking part in the discussion of the Education Estimates in the late Parliament on the statement of the Vice President of the Council (Sir Lyon Playfair), although we had many important questions to raise and many important matters to discuss. I am glad to agree with the noble Lord the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the point he has put before the Committee. He has expressed his desire of seeing these Votes passed with expedition and decency. We are desirous of seeing them passed with decency, and if decency can be had together with expedition all the better for us. All I can say is that neither decency nor expedition is likely to be served by exhibitions of angry feeling on the part of Gentlemen on the opposite Benches. I have only one word more to say, and it is this—if the Chancellor of the Exchequer thinks he is going to get this Vote passed to-night he is mistaken, for it will not be passed.
  MR. P. J. POWER: I desire to say that the remarks which the Chancellor of the Exchequer states that he addressed to the Committee did not reach this portion of the House. I think the position taken up by the Government is more than unreasonable. They have already taken 14 Votes for Ireland and Scotland, and I can assure hon. Gentlemen who have had but a short experience in this House that to obtain that number of Votes in the evening is very good work. If the noble Lord the Chancellor of the Exchequer will go back to the time when he sat on these Benches below the Gangway, and when he was a thorn in the side of Sir Stafford Northcote, he will recollect that one Vote at a Sitting was considered sufficient. I say that the programme of to-night has been adhered to. We understood that when certain uncontested Votes were taken we were to report Progress; and we contend that the Vote which the Government are now seeking to take is, perhaps, one of the most contentious on the Paper. It is one in which Irish Members have a very great interest, and in which the people of Ireland have a strong interest; and I assure the Government that it is one in the discussion of which we intend to take an active part. The Government will perceive
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  from the attitudes of some of their followers that the Committee is not in a proper frame of mind to go to-night into this complicated matter, which will require for its consideration more coolness than is likely to be displayed on the opposite Benches. Be that as it may, we are determined that the Government shall not proceed with the Vote until we have exhausted all the Forms of the House to prevent it.
  MR. BIGGAR: The Committee will be aware that in the Parliament of 1880 we had some experience of late Sittings; but in the Parliament of 1874–80 half-past 12 o'clock was looked upon as the proper time for reporting Progress. It was then understood that Supply should not be continued after 1 o'clock in the morning; and I do not think the noble Lord the Chancellor of the Exchequer has any right to make a very strong protest against alleged Obstruction, seeing that no Motion to report Progress was made until half-past 12 tonight. In addition to that I may say that I recollect that on one occasion the Scotch Fishery Vote occupied the whole of the Sitting; at any rate, the debate was very prolonged. But to-night the discussion on the Fishery Vote has been confined entirely to Scotch Members. Well, Sir, taking the matter for all in all, I think that the number of Votes obtained by the Government ought to satisfy the noble Lord. The last Vote was eminently one for discussion, and I do not think it can be said that we have discussed it at any great length. It is unreasonable to tell us, under the circumstances, that we are to go on with a Vote of a very contentious kind at half-past 1 in the morning.
  MR. SEXTON: I think hon. Members on both sides of the House will agree that the Chairman is as likely to draw a correct conclusion as to what was said as any Member of the House. You will recollect, Mr. Courtney, that you put from the Chair the Question that you should report Progress.
  MR. MOLLOY: Several of my hon. Friends have left the House on the understanding that this Vote would not be proceeded with; and I am sure that if any one of them had had the slightest idea that this important question would come on, he would have remained to take part in the discussion.

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  My hon. Friend the Member for Poplar (Mr. Buxton), believing that there was no more important Business to come on, went away, and I am certain that it never entered into his mind that this important Vote would be taken. I appeal to the Government as to whether it is fair, in the absence of Members more intimately acquainted with education even than the Government themselves, to bring on a Vote which these hon. Members can have no opportunity of discussing? I do not think it fair that the Education Vote should be brought forward.
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: Before we go into the Lobby for the first of what may be a long series of divisions, I appeal to the noble Lord the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say whether it would not be more conducive to the dignity of the House and to our own convenience to settle this question without going into the Lobby at all? It is desirable that we should not perambulate the Lobbies for an hour, or an hour and a-half, to settle this dispute; because that is what will undoubtedly happen unless the Government agree to report Progress. But there is no reason why it should happen. The right hon. Baronet the Chief Secretary for Ireland has told us that he made an announcement to the Committee, having in his own mind a clear understanding of what the intention of the Government was. The statement of the right hon. Baronet is, to my mind, sufficient; but I am quite satisfied that hon. Members on these Benches did not hear it, and did not come to the same understanding. I appeal to the memory of hon. Members of this and of the last Parliament whether there is any more fruitful cause of dissension than these so-called "understandings?" The reason of this is to be found always in some departure from the recognized position. Now, the understanding we had was that the Votes were to be taken seriatim in the order in which they appeared on the Paper. The Government asked to be allowed to take one or two non-contentious Votes, and these we allowed to be taken; then a departure from that position occurred, the Government proposing to go on to Class IV.; but it certainly was never in the mind of Members on either side of the House that this Vote should be proceeded with.
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  Under these circumstances, you cannot get a very considerable section of the House to enter upon the consideration of the Education Estimates; and even if you try, you will do nothing more than walk about the Lobby for an hour and a-half, at the end of which time everyone will be thoroughly disgusted with the proceedings. There is an easy way of avoiding this. ["No, no!"] I suggest that the Vote put from the Chair—namely, the first Vote of Class IV.—should be withdrawn, and that we should recur to the Vote which we ought to have taken up according to arrangement.
  MR. J. NOLAN: The noble Lord the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made repeated charges of Obstruction against Members on this side of the House. Now, I respectfully submit that the charge of Obstruction cannot be brought against me, inasmuch as I have not ventured to address the Committee throughout the evening. I have listened to the very temperate addresses made by my Colleagues to the Leader of the House, and also to the appeal made to him by one of the oldest and most respected Members of this Assembly. A deaf ear has been turned to these appeals; and I venture to say with all respect, no matter what the consequence may be, that I, for one, am determined to persist to the end in the present opposition to the Government. I protest against hon. Members being forced to enter upon the consideration of a most important Vote in an undignified manner. I think we may safely appeal to the feelings of right hon. Gentlemen opposite to put an end now to what otherwise is likely to be a very prolonged discussion, and one which is likely to degenerate into an unseemly wrangle. Hon. Members opposite have not displayed during the past hour that feeling which would lead us to expect that they would give a fair, calm, and impartial consideration to the Vote which the Government wish to bring on. As my hon. Friend has stated, the question of education is not a purely English question; it is one in which the Irish Members take a very deep interest. I have been for years engaged in the work of education in this country, and I know that there are hundreds and thousands of Irishmen in England, the education of whose children is a thing

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  which is very dear to them; and, with the exception, perhaps, of my hon. Friend the Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool (Mr. T. P. O'Connor), there is no Representative in the House to put forward their views. For these reasons I unite with my Colleagues in their appeal to the Government to allow the Business to come to a close.
  MR. DEASY: I am sorry to see that the noble Lord the Chancellor of the Exchequer appears to be about to leave the House. It must be patent to everyone who has had experience in matters of this kind that it is useless to prolong the present discussion in opposition to the large number of Members who support the Motion before the Committee. Suppose we were to give way on the question and allow the Education Vote to be discussed, what would be the consequence? There would be very few Gentlemen on this side of the House who would not have many observations to make. Irish Members are deeply interested in this question. A great number of us have been through England during the last Election, and we know from actual contact with Irishmen in this country that there are many grievances which they desire to have redressed. I may remind the Committee that my hon. Friend the Member for King's County (Mr. Molloy) has given the names of Gentlemen—Members of the Royal Commission—who have left the House, but were very anxious to speak upon this Vote. It is evident that many English Members above the Gangway have also this question at heart. For myself, I take a very deep interest in the Education Question, and I shall certainly have something to say on the subject if I have the opportunity; but at this hour none of us can agree that this is a proper opportunity, and we think, on the other hand, that we cannot reasonably be expected to sit here till 7 o'clock in the morning, which will be the case if the Government choose to keep us. I, therefore, appeal to the Government to make no attempt to force on the discussion of the Education Vote. I remember that in one Session the discussion on the Lord Lieutenant's Household occupied the entire night, but on this occasion it has not occupied more than an hour and a half; and with regard to other Votes I may say that the consideration of the Vote for the Board of Works and other
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  similar matters might reasonably have occupied more time than has been expended upon them to-day. I must say that if we had understood the Chief Secretary to make the statement which he alleges he did make in the course of his speech, we should have taken a very different course with regard to three of the Votes which have been passed. I think that the progress made to-night in taking 13 Scotch, English, and Irish Votes, including one most important Irish Vote, ought to satisfy the ambition of hon. Gentlemen opposite. We are not anxious to remain here—on the contrary, we are quite as alive to the desirability of getting home as other Members of the House. We may not have quite the same inducements; but, at the same time, we have a great deal to do in Ireland, and after a very long and laborious Session we are entitled to have a long rest, and that rest will be quite as much needed by us as by Gentlemen opposite. I can assure the Committee that the Education Vote, when it does come forward, will be discussed point by point. If we bring it on now it is clear that Gentlemen opposite are not in a position to discuss it in a temperate and proper manner. The scenes we have witnessed for the last hour have had the effect of placing us in a state of mind by no means conducive to the proper consideration of the Vote. The word "Obstruction" has been hurled at us freely. I am bound to say that we have had no intention whatever of obstructing the Business of the House. We desire nothing more than a full and open discussion of a question in which we take a deep interest, and we have certainly not pushed our opposition to an improper length. ["Oh, oh!"] I would ask hon. Members to go back and say what time this Vote would have occupied in a former Session of Parliament, more especially under the conduct of the noble Lord when he sat on these Benches. I do not think there are any grounds whatever for charging us with Obstruction; and certainly, as far as I am concerned, I repudiate the idea that I have made any attempt in this or any other Session to obstruct the Business of the House. It seems to me quite right that we should take any steps that may be necessary to prevent any further progress in the Estimates being made to-night. We were first told to consider Class III.,

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  but this was changed, and we were then I told to go on with Class IV. It appears to me that the Government did not know what Class to go on with, and I am sure that had they known at the time that the Education Vote was the first of the Class they would have agreed to Progress being reported. But they have got into a line, and they are determined to keep to it.
  MR. TOMLINSON: I rise to Order, and wish to ask whether the hon. Member is speaking to the Motion before the Committee?
  THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is very discursive in his remarks, and I must invite him to be more precise.
  MR. DEASY: I wish to impress upon the minds of hon. Members opposite that their interruptions will not have the effect of advancing the Business of the Committee. I shall conclude by expressing a hope that on no consideration will the Vote which the noble Lord wishes to be taken be given to the Government to night, and, if for no other reason, because the Committee is not in a condition to discuss it in a proper spirit.
  MR. YERBURGH: I think it must be very evident to hon. Gentlemen who have listened to the remarks made on both sides of the House that there is a misunderstanding in this case. It is clear to me that right hon. Gentlemen on the Treasury Bench have put forward an arrangement which in some way has been misunderstood. There is an entire misunderstanding between the Government and hon. Gentlemen opposite, and I would appeal to both sides whether it is not possible for some understanding to be arrived at.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 54; Noes 150: Majority 96.—(Div. List, No. 31.)
  Original Question again proposed.
  MR. J. O'CONNOR: I beg to move, Mr. Courtney, that you do now leave the Chair.
  Motion made, and Question put, "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair."—(Mr. John O'Connor.)
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 55; Noes 154: Majority 99.—(Div. List, No. 32.)
  Original Question again proposed.
  MR. HUNTER: I beg to move, Sir, that you do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again. It is now 24 minutes past 2 o'clock, and it cannot be expected that at such an hour we should pass on to the discussion of such an important subject as the English Education Estimates. I am one of those who consider that the Committee would best consult its own dignity and the advantage of the country if it adjourned not later than half-past 12 o'clock every night, and I am quite prepared to join every League that may be established for early closing. It seems to me that it is most unreasonable to expect those of us who are private Members, and are not, like the Government, paid for their attendance, to remain until the small hours of the morning—those of us, particularly, who have to get up in the morning to do our own private work. I trust the Government will be reasonable, and will come to the conclusion which I think every reasonable man should come to—namely, that half-past 2 o'clock in the morning is not the time to begin the discussion of important Estimates.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Hunter.)
  COLONEL NOLAN: I would appeal to the noble Lord the Chancellor of the Exchequer not to persist in his refusal to allow Progress to be reported. He said earlier in the evening that he would not allow Progress to be reported without making a strong protest. Well, he has made a strong protest. He has taken two divisions, and has been supported by a considerable majority. ["Hear, hear!"] I quite allow it. No less than 150 Members have stayed with the Government, all Conservatives; but the noble Lord will allow that there is a formidable minority, and that for 55 Gentlemen to be kept together at so late an hour in order to resist what they conceive to be an inconsiderate method of dealing with important Estimates is a most unusual thing. The noble Lord may choose to keep us here until 5 or 6 o'clock in the morning; but he must remember that he is dealing with Scotch and English Members as well as Irish Members, and that they do not think that British Esti-

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  mates ought to be dealt with at half-past 2 o'clock in the morning. ["Oh, oh!"] Well, there may be some English and Scotch Members who would like to go on with Supply; but, as I say, there are others who do not think that such matters should be proceeded with at half-past 2 in the morning. My opinion is—though, perhaps, it is not worth very much—that the view of the 55 Members is worth more than of the 154. I maintain that it is no use continuing this wrangle, and that nothing is likely to come of it beyond the keeping of us out of bed two or three hours longer. Enough has already taken place to inspire the Conservative papers—["Oh, oh!"]—yes, they will all be able to write upon it to-morrow. The whole of this thing has been got up in order that to-morrow the Conservative papers may write that the Irish Members are offering undue opposition to the Estimates. ["Hear, hear!"] Hon. Gentlemen opposite bear me out. Well, but we are not opposing the Estimates, nor have we been doing so. We have only been insisting upon the proper consideration of them; and I think such of the newspapers as are not blinded by their prejudices will say that, on the whole, there is a good deal to be said in favour of not proceeding with the Education Estimates at half-past 2 o'clock in the morning. I would point out to the noble Lord that he will not strengthen his protest by taking more than two divisions. Whether he takes six or two, it will come absolutely to the same thing.
  GENERAL GOLDSWORTHY: As an independent Member sent here to represent my constituents, and to assist in carrying on the Business of the country—["Hear, hear!" and laughter]—I must protest against the proceedings of this evening. No doubt, half-past 2 o'clock is not a reasonable hour at which to begin the consideration of the Education Estimates; but I must say that half-past 12 was, under the circumstances of the present Session, a very reasonable hour. Hon. Members have been wasting time since half-past 12 o'clock. ["Hear, hear!"] I cannot consider that any good would be served by dividing the House because the Chief Secretary for Ireland did not know the name of a subordinate in one of the offices. Yet
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  this was proposed by the hon. Member for the Camborne Division of Cornwall (Mr. Conybeare). I wonder if the hon. Member is acquainted with the name of the housekeeper in the office to which he referred. Unnecessary delay has taken place, simply because certain hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway on the Opposition side have made arrangements with other Members occupying seats on the same side that certain Estimates shall not be taken. They have practically done that. Practically, then, the arrangement of the Business of this House is to rest with hon. Gentlemen opposite, rather than with the noble Lord the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I myself am prepared to stop here to any hour which may be considered necessary as a protest against the waste of time which has taken place this evening. The hon. Member who last spoke—[An hon. MEMBER: Hon. and gallant.]—yes; the hon. and gallant Member who last spoke—I give him the "gallant" willingly, for we served together some years ago. He said that the remarks on some of the Estimates had not been unreasonable. I say that those remarks were unreasonable, because, as hon. Gentlemen opposite have desired to commence consideration of debateable matter at that hour when it suited them, I hold that the majority ought to rule the minority. I hope that will always be the case, especially where the majority is so large as it is on the present occasion.
  MR. KIMBER: Mr. Courtney, I beg to call your attention to Standing Order No. 11, which is in these terms—
  "If Mr. Speaker, or the Chairman of a Committee of the Whole House, shall be of opinion that a Motion for the Adjournment of a Debate, or of the House during any debate, or that the Chairman do report Progress, or do leave the Chair, is an abuse of the Rules of the House, he may forthwith put the Question thereupon from the Chair,"
  and to ask your opinion whether, as Chairman of this Committee—["Order!"]—I think I am in Order, Mr. Courtney, in asking your opinion as to whether, having regard to the way in which the last two hours have been consumed, and to the fact that the present Motion is the third of the same kind that has been made within the last two hours, this Motion is not an abuse of the Rules of the House?
  MR. T. P. O'CONNOR: On the point of Order I would like to ask you whether the plain meaning and spirit of that Rule is that the Chairman of Committees shall form that opinion of his own motion and initiative; and I would like, further, to ask you whether, if any suggestion be made to the Chairman of Committees on a question like this, it should not come from a Minister of the Crown?
  THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! The observations of the hon. Member (Mr. T. P. O'Connor) are out of Order. Neither is it a question of Order to ask the Chairman what his opinion may be as to what transpires in this House.
  MR. DILLON: The hon. and gallant Gentleman (General Goldsworthy) who has just addressed the Committee before this disorderly interruption took place gave it as his opinion that in all cases the majority in this House should rule the minority. Now, if that doctrine had always been put into force no reform would ever have taken place in this country, because I never heard of any reform or change being made without its first of all being advocated by a minority. ["Question!"] The question is, whether our position was a reasonable one when this wrangle was started? ["No!"] I say it was. I say it was a position assumed in good faith, and according to what we understood to be an agreement; and, furthermore, laying aside that altogether, I maintain that the hour at which the proposition to report Progress was made from these Benches was not an unreasonable hour to make such a Motion. Hon. Members have totally misrepresented the position which we took up. My hon. Friend the Member for West Belfast (Mr. Sexton) said to the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland—["Agreed, agreed!"] We have not agreed. My hon. Friend told the Chief Secretary for Ireland that we were quite prepared to go on with certain Irish Votes if the Government thought it was convenient. The Government said they did not consider it was convenient. The hon. Member for West Belfast distinctly said we were prepared to go on with these Votes if it was convenient; but the Government got up and said—"No; we admit that it is not a suitable time of the night to enter on so important a discussion as that for Law Charges in Ireland; but
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  we consider that if we postpone this Vote we are entitled to ask for the assistance of hon. Members in taking three Votes," which were named. We accepted that arrangement, and, so far as we are concerned, it has been honourably carried out. I maintain, therefore, it is preposterous to charge us with any failure to carry out the agreement which was arrived at. The hon. and gallant Gentleman (General Goldsworthy), who was particularly inflamed, seemed to think that we claimed to regulate the Business of the House; he said that we had made an arrangement with English Members. Now, nothing could be more distant from the real facts of the case. The hon. and gallant Gentleman is a new Member of the House; but any Gentleman who has sat for any considerable length of time during discussions in Committee of Supply knows perfectly well that nothing is more common than for one class of Members interested in one class of Votes to come to others and ask the question—"Can you tell us whether your discussion will occupy the whole night or not?" These exchanges are the ordinary courtesies of the House. What happened to-night was this—a number of English Members came to us and said—"Do you believe the Irish Votes will occupy the whole of this evening?" We said we did believe they would. The hon. and gallant Gentleman is quite wrong in supposing that we regulate the Business of the House; it is not we who regulate the Business—
  MR. DE LISLE: Mr. Courtney, I beg to ask you whether the hon. Gentleman is not guilty of tedious repetition?
  THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! That is not a point of Order at all.
  MR. DILLON: The hon. and gallant Gentleman (General Goldsworthy) accused us of undertaking to regulate the Business of this House. We have not undertaken for a single moment to regulate the Business of this House; but we did understand that the Business of the House had been regulated by the Government, and upon their regulation we relied when we endeavoured to give information to English Members, which I have now learned for the first time is to be considered a crime in this House—when we endeavoured to give information to English Members, what we

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  relied upon was the regulation by the Government of the Business of this House. We had frequently asked the Government what was the order in which they would take Supply, and they had always replied that they would take it in the order in which the Votes appeared on the Paper. Now, I want to impress on the Committee what the effect of that statement was. The Government, as I have already pointed out, had stated that they proposed to take Supply in the order in which it was placed on the Paper. Now, nobody can deny that fact; it was stated over and over again by the Government. When they stated that they would withdraw a certain contentious Irish Vote if we consented to take the remaining Votes in Class II, we were entitled to suppose they would go on with Class III. They commenced with the first Vote in that Class, and it was not until I protested against Class III being taken that they hopped on to Class IV. I put it to the Government whether that is a business-like way of carrying on the Business of Supply; is it a mode by which order and decency can be maintained?—["Yes!"] I say that it is not a way in which order and decency can be maintained. If you commence by trying to take one large Class of Estimates, and then, when a protest is made against one of the Votes, skip over 20 Votes and hop on to another Class, it is manifest that the proceeding will end in confusion. If the Government desire to carry on the Business of this House as it has been carried on during the whole of last week and this evening—namely, in a way which is satisfactory to the country—[Laughter.] Hon. Members laugh at my statement; but I would refer them to a leading article in the London Times of last Saturday, a paper not over favourable to us, in which The Times declare that Supply has been carried on in a perfectly fair and legitimate way. I do not think that The Times is doing us more than justice, and therefore I am justified in saying that the Business of Supply has been carried on in a way to satisfy the London Times. If the Government desire to carry on Supply in a fair and honourable spirit, they certainly ought to treat us with more courtesy than they have treated us to-night. The beginning of this trouble arose, as I contend, from a departure from the under-
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  standing which we loyally kept; we loyally adhered to the agreement, so far as we understood it and heard it; and for the distinct attack made upon us by the noble Lord the Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord Randolph Churchill) there is not one shred of justification. I regret exceedingly the condition into which things have got. While it is perfectly true that in all great matters the majority in this House must prevail over the minority, I must say that in all my experience—and it is very considerable—I never have seen an attempt on the part of a majority, so small as the present is as compared with the present minority, to bear down the minority by brute force in such an unreasonable way as it has been attempted to be done tonight. I have seen minorities in this House of 5 to 1 stand up with less cause and win. In this instance you are not 3 to 1, and the majority is made up, with the exception of five or six hon. Gentlemen, from Members on one side of the House.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I wish to correct a misapprehension which has arisen as to the Business before the Committee. It is not the fact that the Education Vote is before the Committee, though it is proposed to go on with it—the Irish Vote was never formally withdrawn; that is the Vote before the Committee on which the Motion was made to report Progress.
  MR. CONWAY: There is one lesson to be deduced from the proceedings of this evening, and that is that the constituencies of Great Britain will know upon whose shoulders the responsibility for the present state of affairs rests. Sir, I know many of the constituencies in the North of England—
  THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! The hon. Member must remember that the Motion before the Committee is to report Progress, and that he must confine his observations to that Motion.
  MR. CONWAY: I wish to point out that we have been asked to discuss the Education Vote, and that hon. Gentlemen have been returned to this House on the question of education. Many hon. Gentlemen obtained the Irish Votes on the understanding that they would look particularly to this Vote. I see many hon. Members opposite who were sent to this House on the under-

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  standing that they would give their heartiest support to denominational education—
  THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is not confining his observations, as he must, to the Motion to report Progress.
  MR. CONWAY: With regard to this Vote, Sir, am I not in Order in referring to the Education Vote, which there has been an attempt to take?
  THE CHAIRMAN: It is irregular to refer to that Vote at all.
  MR. CONWAY: With regard to the Motion to report Progress, I will point out that it is the Vote for Education that blocks the way.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I have told the hon. Gentleman twice that he must not discuss the Education Vote, but must keep himself to the Question before the Committee.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNOR: It is somewhat significant of the state of confusion to which the Committee has been reduced by this discussion that we require to be reminded by you, Mr. Courtney, what the Vote is which is really before us for discussion. I wish to say that nearly every hon. Member of the Committee was under the impression for the last two hours that the Vote before the Committee was that for education. [" No!"] Well, hon. Gentlemen on the opposite Benches give a negative to that statement; but I repeat the statement. Every Member of the Committee, without distinction of Party, whether on the Conservative Benches or—["No, no!"] Well, if my statement be contradicted before I make it, it shows the state of intelligence and impartiality in which hon. Members on the opposite Benches are. Now, Mr. Courtney, I will attempt once more to make my statement. My statement is that every Member of the Committee, without distinction of Party, whether on the Conservative or the Liberal Benches, was under the impression that the Vote before the Committee was the Vote for English Education—["No!"] Well, all I can say is this—that when we were discussing the Vote before the Committee, and discussing it as the Education Vote, not a single Member on those Benches corrected us. Hon. Gentlemen opposite cannot boast that they were particularly modest in the cries in which they indulged, and therefore it is not too
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  much to suppose that had hon. Gentlemen known the Education Vote was not before the Committee they would have corrected us. Now, Mr. Courtney, we are surely not now in a position to conduct with decency, decorum, and dignity the Business of Supply. I do not make any appeal to the Government. I regret to say that it appears to me that debates of this kind in Committee will not, so long as the present Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord Randolph Churchill) is Leader of the House, be conducted in a spirit of mutual concession. The noble Lord has, for the first time in the history of the Leadership of this House, thought discourtesy a good mode of expediting Supply—[Cries of "Withdraw!"] I have not the smallest objection to withdraw the observation, though I think it is more than justified by the circumstances. We met the Government to-night in a perfectly fair spirit—we met them with fairness and impartiality, which, I think, might well have been imitated by some of the right hon. Gentlemen on the Treasury Bench. They made an offer; we accepted that offer—we carried out the offer; the Government broke the offer. The Government asked for four Votes; we gave them three of the Votes without a word of discussion, without a moment's delay; and when we had done that the gratitude and fair play of the Government was to forget their own promises, to swallow their own pledges, and even to try and force down the throats of the Committee one of the most important Votes in the whole Estimates. The country will judge between the Government and us. I think it will be seen that the Government are trying to make a case for themselves. They have no idea and no intention of carrying any further Votes in Committee to night; they are making a sham demonstration; they rely upon the ignorance of the outside public in closely watching the course of the proceedings in this House to lay the blame, not on the shoulders of the Government where it really lies, but on our shoulders. I am glad to think that when the case comes before the public the Government will not be able to represent this as a case of purely Irish Obstruction. We have been supported by the most able and the most experienced Members of the Liberal Party—["Oh, Oh!" laughter, and cries of Name!"]—men who were in-

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  telligent and honoured Members of this House long before some of the Gentlemen who jeer at them were politically born, and men who will remain honoured Members of this House long after those Gentlemen are politically dead. The last Motion for Adjournment has been moved by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Aberdeen (Mr. Hunter), one of the most highly respected Members returned from Scotland; we have been supported in the Lobby by nearly every Member of the Liberal Party in this House—[Ironical laughter.] The hon. Gentleman who, though sitting upon the Liberal Benches, really belongs to the other side of the House thinks it right to jeer. I do not count him amongst the intelligent.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I invite the hon. Gentleman to adhere more closely to the Question before the Committee.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNOR: I think you will acknowledge, Mr. Courtney, it is rather hard to adhere to the Question when one is constantly interrupted by unseemly conduct on the part of hon. Gentlemen. I call upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he has any regard for the decency of his Leadership and for the dignity of the House of which, by a temporary accident, he happens to be Leader, to put an end to the unseemly wrangle on which he has rashly embarked. We have fulfilled our part of the undertaking; we mean that the Government shall fulfil theirs if we can possibly do so; and we defy any misrepresentation of our conduct outside the House.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 56; Noes 148: Majority 92.—(Div. List, No. 33.)
  Original Question again proposed.
  MR.DILLWYN: It seems to me that I cannot consent to go on with an important Vote of this kind at so late an hour; and therefore I move that you, Sir, do now leave the Chair.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair."—(Mr. Dillwyn.)
  MR. LEAMY: A few moments ago, when the hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool (Mr. T. P. O'Connor), stated that
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  for the last two hours we had been under the impression that the Vote before the Committee was the Education Vote, several hon. Members on the opposite Benches cried "No, no!" The Chief Secretary for Ireland and the Chancellor of the Exchequer have both given their reasons for not accepting the Motion for Progress.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I think it right to say that I stated it was intended to go on with the Education Vote, and to withdraw the Vote for Criminal Prosecutions in Ireland, and that it was still technically before the Committee. I simply wish to prevent hon. Members and the Committee falling into error.
  MR. LEAMY: I have no objection that you should think it necessary that you should come to the defence of these right hon. Gentlemen, because it is the best proof that we were right in this contest. A moment ago you brought forward this contentious Vote, one of the Votes which it was agreed should be excluded, and you expect that the noble Lord would agree to the Vote being withdrawn. Well, Sir, the noble Lord I think has confessed that we were right, and that he has been in error. It is proved conclusively—and let hon. Members take notice of it—that for two hours the noble Lord, as Leader of the House of Commons, sat in his place and did not know what was the Business before the Committee. I beg to support the Motion of the hon. Member for Swansea.
  MR. BIGGAR: I think it must be acknowledged on all sides of the House that to commence any contentious Business at a quarter to 1 in the morning is out of the question. It is a course which I do not think the Government ought to propose; and I must say, also, that nothing is more natural at so advanced an hour than that we should move to report Progress. I do not think the Government are right in prolonging this discussion, and of course it is impossible that at this hour the public outside can have any report of what is taking place on this question. It is all very well for the Government to ask to take non-contentious Votes at an unreasonable hour, but this is a very different thing; and I am of opinion that it would be much better to get to other Business on the Paper, and close the evening in a satisfactory manner.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Lord RANDOLPH CHURCHILL): The hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar) says that he does not think it reasonable that the Government should proceed to contentious Business after 1 o'clock in the morning. To a certain extent I think the hon. Member is right in that proposition; but we do not hold that the Business we are asking the Committee to proceed with is of a contentious character. The Education Estimates having been discussed at great length in the last Parliament, we were distinctly of opinion that the Committee would be ready to make progress with them. We do not hold that the proposal made to the Committee is of a contentious character; but what hon. Members seem to forget, and what it is right that they should be reminded of, is that the right hon. Gentleman who is in the position of Leader of the opposite Benches, in the absence of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Lothian (Mr. W. E. Gladstone), got up and asked the Committee to say that it was a reasonable course. Therefore, we have the high authority of the right hon. Gentleman opposite for saying that the course of the Government is a reasonable one, and that the course which hon. Members below the Gangway are pursuing is unreasonable. This is a fact that should be brought strongly before the public, and that the Government have taken three divisions against this very great waste of time, for which hon. Members opposite must bear the responsibility, and particularly those Members of the Liberal Party who, although in former days they were the greatest possible advocates of more expeditious despatch of Business, are now the Leaders of Obstruction. I repeat that the Government have taken three divisions, and have been supported by a large majority of the Committee. There is no particular use in continuing this discussion under the circumstances. The public will judge of the position which the Government occupied, and of the difficulty with which they have to contend in conducting the indispensable Business of the country. I have no doubt that the proceedings of to-night will leave their mark on the public mind, and will produce the feeling that a very considerable alteration
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  should be made in the procedure of the House.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Original Question again proposed.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: I ask whether it is understood that in future the Government will take the Votes precisely in the order in which they stand?
  LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL: The Government in future will certainly make no concession demanded by hon. Gentlemen opposite which does not suit their convenience.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNOR: What the noble Lord had better understand is, that we have never asked for concession; we never will ask him for concession; and we are quite willing to have open war with him.
  MR. CONYBEARE: I wish to add that it will be well for the Government to understand once for all that, as Radicals, we are determined to see that the interests of the people are properly represented in this House. [Interruption.]
  MR. O'HEA: I rise to Order. I beg to ask if it is in Order that these continuous interruptions should take place, which, when a Member of the House is speaking, makes his voice inaudible at the Chair?
  THE CHAIRMAN: If the hon. Member attempts to speak under such circumstances it is in Order to express dissent.
  MR. CONYBEARE: I think I am justified in saying that, as far as hon. Gentlemen are concerned, they had better go out of the House if they are exhausted. [Interruption.]
  THE CHAIRMAN: As far as I can catch the observations of the hon. Gentleman they are not addressed to the Question before the Committee.
  MR. CONYBEARE: But, Sir, I have not been allowed to make any observations. I am attempting to finish the sentence I commenced with. I was giving the noble Lord to clearly understand, in connection with the Motion for Progress, that we shall continue to protest against having sprung upon us important Votes

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  in the manner that was done at an earlier period of the evening, even if we have to remain here for weeks.
  Motion agreed to.
  Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.
  Committee also report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

  SUPPLY.—REPORT.
  Resolutions [10th September] reported.
  Resolutions 1 to 9, inclusive, agreed to.
  (10.) "That a sum, not exceeding £8,326, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Public Record Office."
  MR. DILLON: I have already informed the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury that I should be obliged to raise a question of importance on this Vote. I propose to move a reduction of the Vote by £100, part of the amount voted for the translation and editing of Irish Papers relating to the Brehon Laws. This is a question of the utmost interest in Ireland, and in order that the Secretary to the Treasury may be able to cut short the discussion I hope that he will see his way to make this concession. My object is that this Vote may appear on the Estimates of next year, and not after an interval, as has hitherto been the case. If the hon. Gentleman will consent to strike off £100 of the Vote, it can be taken in the Estimates, of next year. We trust, by having an opportunity of bringing forward this question on the next Estimates, we shall be able to effect a reform which is of pressing importance.
  Motion made, and Question proposed)
  "That a sum, not exceeding £8,226, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1887, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Public Record Office."— (Mr. Dillon.)
  THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. JACKSON): I hope the hon. Member will not press the Motion for the reduction of this Vote. As I understand the matter, his object is to have a further opportunity next year of bringing forward this question. I think it is almost certain he will
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  have the opportunity he desires. My own impression is that the £200 placed on the Estimate will not be expended; indeed, I think it may be taken for certain that it cannot be expended. I may say, as a matter of fact, that the gentleman now engaged upon the work is paid only when the work is wanted—he is paid for the publication of one additional volume, and has not to proceed with the whole. I think the hon. Gentleman will see that the amount now voted will not be expended in the financial year.
  MR. M. J. KENNY: Do we understand from the Secretary to the Treasury that the editing of the remaining volumes—for there are, altogether, 10 in Irish, six of which have already been translated by the most eminent scholars, whilst the seventh is in process of being translated, so that there are only three that remain to be dealt with—I say, therefore, are we to understand that the work of translating and editing will be regularly continued? I understood the hon. Member to say, when he was addressing the House, that the amount we are now voting would not be expended within the financial year. [Mr. JACKSON: I believe so.] Well, it is an unusual thing to ask for money to be voted when it is not for the financial year. I think it is irregular. There was no money voted last year for the purpose for which the present Vote is asked. I do not know that there has ever been money specifically voted for this purpose before. Hitherto, I believe, the question has always been raised in connection with other Irish Votes. Well, I should like now to know, if this sum is not to be expended during the current financial year, what assurance we shall have that we shall have an opportunity of discussing the question some other year? If we do not get some assurance on that point I think my hon. Friend ought to force on his Amendment, so as, if possible, to reduce the Vote, render it necessary for application to be made to Parliament next year, and in that way afford us another opportunity of discussing the subject.
  MR. T. P. GILL: I think if the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury will recall the fact that there has been no Vote for this purpose for the last few years he will be much more ready to accept the proposal of my hon. Friend the Member for East

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  Mayo (Mr. Dillon). The whole question of these translations requires looking into; and we ask that such provision shall be made for the reduction of the Vote as will secure that the subject shall be brought up again next year, when we hope to open up matters of great importance. The translating and editing of these works is a matter of great importance from an archæological, historical, and legal point of view. Students in all parts of the world take great interest in it. This Commission has been sitting and drawing money from Parliament for the past 34 years. Three Members of it were originally necessary to form a quorum; but the House will be astonished to hear that there is only one Commissioner now living, and that it is impossible for him to form a legal quorum—I refer to the Bishop of Limerick, Dr. Graves.
  MR. JACKSON: I do not wish to interrupt the hon. Member; but perhaps he is unaware that the Commission has been reconstituted.
  MR. T. P. GILL: That is a fact I was not entirely certain about. The information, at any rate, is not to be found in any of the Records of this House. I have been for some time engaged in looking up every bit of information that is to be found—in the Libraries, the Stationery Office, the Record Office, and everywhere else where information is procurable—in regard to this matter; and so far the information with which I have been furnished goes to prove that there is no evidence to show the existence of a Commission. On the contrary, there is no Report to be had since 1864. The Report of 1864, I understand, was the last Report published by the Brehon Laws Commission; consequently there is every reason why we should have this matter gone into. There is the greatest dissatisfaction amongst those who take an interest in Celtic studies in Ireland, in England, and, I may say, all over Europe, at the way in which the work connected with these Brehon Laws is being done. M. d'Arbois de Joubainville, and other leading Celtic scholars in France, Germany, and elsewhere have made complaints that there has been a Commission sitting 34 years that has published four volumes, and is only now publishing a fifth. The thing is an absurdity. We ask a very reasonable thing in requesting that this Vote should
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  be reduced, so that the matter will be brought before us next year. There was no Vote for the Commission last year, and we have no security that the same thing will not happen next year, and that it will be impossible for us to renew this discussion for years to come. All that the Motion before the House will do will be to give us another opportunity for discussion. The demand we now make, therefore, is not an unreasonable one. It will rob no one, and will only secure that the subject will be brought under notice again next year.
  MR. LEAMY: I hope the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury will consent to the suggestion made by my hon. Friend the Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon). Of course, the hon. Gentleman will understand that we who take part in this discussion are in entire sympathy with the work of the Commission. We desire to see the Brehon Laws translated, and all we want now is that we shall have an opportunity of discussing the work done by the Commission during the last 30 years. We are not quite satisfied with the work. It is, however, too late to enter into a discussion of that matter to-night. It is more than probable that the hon. Gentleman would not be able to give us the information we want. He, presumably, does not himself possess sufficient knowledge of the matter to be able to inform us upon it.
  MR. JACKSON: I can promise that an opportunity will be afforded for the discussion of the subject next Session.
  MR. DILLON: Then I have the greatest pleasure in withdrawing the Motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Resolution agreed to.
  Remaining Resolutions agreed to.

SUBMARINE TELEGRAPH ACT (1885) AMENDMENT BILL.— [BILL 45.]
(Baron Henry De Worms, Sir James Fergusson.)
SUBMARINE TELEGRAPH ACT (1885) AMENDMENT BILL.— [BILL 45.]

  COMMITTEE.
  Bill considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Clause 1 agreed to.
  Clause 2 (Confirmation of declaration).
  MR. T. P. O'CONNOR: I would ask the hon Gentle-

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  man in charge of the Bill whether it has anything to do with Submarine Telegraph Companies, whose monopoly costs the public so much inconvenience?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (Baron HENRY DE WORMS): The Bill has nothing to do with any Company. It is the confirmation by this country of an international arrangement for the general protection of all cables.
  Clause agreed to.
  Bill reported, without Amendment.
  BARON HENRY DE WORMS: Perhaps the House will allow the Bill to be read the third time.
  Bill read the third time, and passed.

  EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL.
  (Sir Herbert Maxwell, Mr. Jackson.)
  EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL.

    [BILL 46.] SECOND READING.
    Order for Second Reading read.
    THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. JACKSON): I move that this Bill be now read a second time.
    MR. SEXTON: I beg to propose that it be taken to-morrow.
    Second Reading deferred till To-morrow.
    House adjourned at a quarter before Four o'clock in the morning.