Commons Sitting of 31 May 1886

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Second Report—Ventilation of the House [No. 173].
PRIVATE BILL (by Order)—Considered as amended—Belfast Main Drainage, debate adjourned.
PUBLIC BILLS—Ordered—First Reading—Revising Barristers' Appointment* [245].
Second Reading—Government of Ireland [181] [Eighth Night], debate further adjourned.
Second Reading—Referred to Select Committee—Peterhead Harbour of Refuge* [232].
Committee—Medical Acts Amendment [163]—R.P.
Committee—Report—Freshwater Fisheries [218–244]; Jurors' Detention [202].
Committee—Report—Third Reading—West Indian Incumbered Estates [233]; British North America* [234], and passed.
Considered as amended—Parliamentary Elections (Returning Officers) Act (1875) Amendment* [241], further proceeding deferred.
Withdrawn—Conveyancing (Scotland) Act (1874) Amendment (No. 2)* [242].
PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS—First Reading—Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) (No. 2)* [243].
Third Reading—Gas and Water* [206]; Water* [207], and passed.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
  BELFAST MAIN DRAINAGE BILL. (by Order.)

    CONSIDERATION.
    Order for Consideration read.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now taken into Consideration."—(Sir James Corry.)
    MR. SEXTON: I rise to move the insertion of the following new Clause:—
    Part 12.—Municipal Franchise.
    "And whereas it is expedient to alter the qualification of burgesses in the borough under the Act passed in the session of Parliament holden in the third and fourth years of Her present Majesty's reign, intituled 'An Act for the Regulation of Municipal Corporations in Ireland,' and to assimilate the same to the qualification of burgesses of the borough of Dublin and of boroughs in England and Scotland, and for such purposes to amend the provisions of the said recited Act so far as regards the borough of Belfast: Be it therefore Enacted, That, from and after the passing of this Act, so much of the thirtieth section of the said recited Act as requires that the house, warehouse, counting house, or shop therein referred to shall be of the yearly value of not less than ten pounds, shall be and the same is hereby repealed so far as regards the qualification of burgesses in said borough; and, for the purposes of such qualification, the said section shall be read and construed as if it were therein enacted that every man of full age who on the last day of August in any year shall be an inhabitant householder, and shall for six calendar months previous thereto have been resident as such within such borough or within seven statute miles of such borough, and who shall occupy within such borough any house, warehouse, counting house, or shop, shall, subject to the provisions in said section contained (save only the provision as regards the yearly value of said premises), if duly enrolled as therein, be a burgess of such borough and a member of the body corporate of the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of such borough: Provided that a person occupying any such premises as aforesaid jointly with any other person or persons shall be deemed an occupier of such premises within the meaning of this and the said section. Nothing in this section contained shall affect any existing burgess roll, but from and after the passing of this Act all persons making out or revising any list or lists of burgesses or preparing any burgess roll, or doing any act in relation to same, shall have, and they are hereby required to have, regard to the provisions of this Act as regards the qualification of burgesses, as if such qualification

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    had been prescribed in the Acts under which such lists are made out."
    Sir, I hope very shortly to be able to convince the House that if this Bill is to pass at all the clause which I have to propose ought to be inserted in it. The House will perhaps remember that this is a Bill the chief purpose of which is to authorize the execution of a main drainage scheme for the important town of Belfast. The scheme came before a Committee of which I had the honour to be a Member, and it was estimated to cost about £200,000. The Committee, however, found that the scheme was incomplete, as it only proposed to provide a high level system of drainage; and they, therefore, imposed upon the Town Council of Belfast, who are the promoters, the condition that they should also execute a low level system, which is estimated to cost another £100,000. Considering how generally, in Belfast as well as in most other places, estimates are exeeeded by the actual expenditure, it is not rash for me to assume that the execution of this scheme will require about £500,000 to carry it out. The public debt of Belfast at present amounts to £750,000, and the town of Belfast is charged with the payment of interest on that debt to the extent of £45,000 a year. The execution of this scheme will add to that public debt a further sum, in the shape of annual interest, of £25,000, and it is calculated that that burden will last from the present time until about the end of the first decade of the 20th century. This being so, it is only natural to inquire what is the position of the municipal franchise in Belfast? Belfast, next to Dublin, is the most important town in Ireland, and there is no other town in Ireland, except Dublin, which can at all compare with it. It is a city which at present contains a population approaching 250,000. If Belfast was situated on this side of the Irish Sea, the municipal voters would number at least from 20,000 to 25,000; but, being on the other side of the Irish Channel, the municipal voters are only between 5,000 and 6,000 in number, and the municipal vote is so manipulated that a minority of 1,500 to 2,000 burgesses, finding they could obtain no influence in the municipal affairs of the town, and that they could not return a single Member to represent their opinions, have ceased
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    to take any interest in municipal affairs, and the result is that the municipal affairs of the town, with a public debt of £750,000 and a payment of an annual interest of £45,000, has fallen into the hands of some 3,000 persons. Now, the Parliamentary Register contains the names of 32,000 electors; and thus, out of every 10 persons in Belfast who have a right to vote for the election of Members to this House, only one has the right to vote in the election of an ordinary Town Council. I submit that that is a state of things which should not be allowed to continue. There are special reasons in Belfast why the municipal franchise should be extended. Complaints have been made that the ratepayers and burgesses have not been consulted in regard to the present Bill, and public meetings have been held to protest against the conduct of the Town Council. On the other hand, there has been no public meeting in favour of the scheme; but I have already been intrusted with a Petition, signed by a considerable number of ratepayers of Belfast, protesting against the conduct of the Town Council, and inviting the House to reject the Bill unless the municipal franchise is extended to those who have to pay the taxation of the town. For the last 20 years the Corporation has consisted of a ring of persons representing a small fraction of the inhabitants, and they have taken care that the burden should lean lightly on the wealthy, while it is made to press heavily on the poor. Differential rates have been reduced, while uniform rates have been raised; and the consequence has been that the rates have become so high that within the last 20 years the rents of houses occupied by working men have been almost doubled. Belfast has lately, and is at the present moment, passing through a crisis of acute depression, and that is an additional reason why this scheme, involving the expenditure of £500,000, should not be passed until the men who have to bear the expenditure are given some share in the representation upon the Town Council. While the Corporation of Belfast has not been behind any Corporation in the Empire in the lavish expenditure of money in those parts of the town which concern the business or the comforts of the well-to-do, the paving and other arrangements of the town in the work-

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    men's quarters are a scandal to civilization. The streets which workmen, workwomen, and children have to pass along six times a-day are paved, not with flags, but with stones locally known as "petrified kidneys," which may have been of use to the mediæval pilgrim, but are not often seen nowadays in an important town. Offensive odours continually assert themselves in these districts; and I may say that the condition of this House, of which so much complaint has lately been made, is quite salubrious compared with the working men's quarters of Belfast. I maintain that these are reasons why the working men of Belfast should have some voice in this main drainage scheme before it is carried out. If they are not allowed to have a voice in it, it is not likely to be carried out for their benefit. The position of this municipal franchise question is a peculiar one. In several Sessions of the last Parliament this House passed a Municipal Franchise Bill for all the boroughs of Ireland. It was agreed to extend to every borough in Ireland what I am now asking for in connection with the borough of Belfast. But what was the result? The House of Lords on every occasion threw out the measure; and, therefore, when I am told that it is unusual and inconvenient to introduce a measure of public law into a Private Bill, my reply is that when the wish of this House, in respect of the Irish municipal franchise, is defeated year after year by the action of the House of Lords, this House is not only entitled, but bound, to seize every opportunity which may offer itself to make its will effectual. Since I first moved in this matter, in the early part of the Session, this question has been somewhat advanced, because the new Parliament has adopted the second reading of the Irish Municipal Franchise Bill. By so doing it has affirmed the principle I seek to enforce; but of what use is it to pass that Bill here? What assurance can we have that the Bill would be passed into law? The assurances are all the other way. The probability is that the Bill this year, as in former years, will be rejected in "another place;" and I therefore invite the House, as a matter of self-respect, and in the assertion of its own judgment, to take the opportunity afforded by the presentation of this Private Bill to show that they have a
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    real regard for the interests of the poor ratepayers of Belfast. Early in the Session the second reading of this Private Bill was taken by surprise. The Bill was read a second time on the first day after the Recess, caused by the change of Government, and it was taken at a time when the Irish Members had no idea that it was intended to take that stage. It was taken, in point of fact, at a time when the Irish Members had not returned to this House. I subsequently moved an Instruction, the object of which was to extend the boundaries of Belfast in accordance with the recommendations of a Royal Commission, which reported, some time ago, on the redistribution of boundaries. The hon. Gentleman the Chairman of Committees (Mr. Courtney) objected to that part of the inquiry, because it might involve a lengthened investigation and detailed arrangements; but I maintain that that was no reason why it should not be done. I have now got rid of that part of my former Motion, and I now make the simple request that the municipal franchise, which for four years past has prevailed in the boroughs of England and Scotland, and for the past generation has prevailed in the City of Dublin, should be also extended to Belfast. The House, since I moved my Instruction, has recognized the principle that the wishes of the Irish Members should be respected in matters of Private Bill legislation in connection with Ireland. Only a short time ago the House rejected the third reading of the Dundalk Gas Bill, because the measure was opposed by the majority of the Irish Members; and it is that manifestation of feeling on the part of the House which relieves us of the necessity of making at this time a more determined stand against the whole of the absurd system of Private Bill legislation for Ireland. When I moved my Instruction on a former occasion, the Chairman of Committees objected to part of it, on the ground that it involved a large measure of public policy; and I find it now asserted in one of the reasons put forward by the supporters of the Bill for the rejection of my Resolution, that it is an attempt to make use of a stage of a Private Bill to open up a large question of public policy. Now, this involves no new assertion of public policy. The hon. Gentleman the Chair-

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    man of Committees urged on the former occasion that it was unusual and inconvenient to deal with a measure of public law in a Private Bill. But the hon. Member was confronted in that debate by many cases to the contrary. I have looked into the subject since, and I find that, so far is it from being unusual to incorporate the public law in a Private Bill, that it has been the usage and rule. In the Local Acts for Black Rock, Clontarf, Kilmainham, Kingstown, Pembroke, Rathmines, Bray, and Galway measures of public law were incorporated. In addition to these particular cases the Commissioners Clauses Act of 1847, which is an Act
    "for consolidating in one Act certain provisions usually contained in Acts with respect of the constitution and regulation of bodies of Commissioners, for the purpose of facilitating their incorporation in special Acts both public and private, and insuring uniformity,"
    contains a series of clauses dealing with the franchise on which Commissioners are elected, and these clauses must have been incorporated in dozens of English Local Acts. The House will be astonished, after the argument of the Chairman of Committees, to hear that up to the year 1847, when that Act was passed, these provisions of public law were usually inserted in all Private Bills relating to the government of municipal towns. I have looked into the Local Acts in question, and I find that they contain, not merely provisions of public law, but actually whole public statutes; and if these things may be done by the promoters of Private Bills, and by Select Committees, why should they not be done by the authority of the House itself? On the day before the day fixed for considering my Instruction, a meeting of the Corporation of Belfast was held, and a motion was made in support of my Instruction. That motion was encountered, not by an amendment on its merits, nor by a direct negative, but by moving the previous question. After the motion in favour of my Instruction had been defeated in that way by the Corporation of Belfast, the Town Clerk posted in hot haste to London, and The Belfast News Letter trumpeted the fact in the columns of that newspaper. In accordance with the example set by the Corporation of Belfast the hon. Gentleman the Chair-
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    man of Committees moved the Previous Question in this House.
    THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: Allow me to say that I had not heard of the act of the Belfast Corporation.
    MR. SEXTON: The coincidence, nevertheless, was very curious. A meeting of the Corporation of Belfast was held on Saturday last to consider the subject of the present Motion, and upon its conclusion the Town Clerk left again for London. That remarkable official, who enjoys a salary of £2,750 a-year, and who has the honour to hold a roving commission from the Corporation of Belfast, is now in London for the purpose of communicating his views and ideas to the Chairman of Committees. A correspondent writes to me as follows:—
    "The Town Clerk left here last evening for London to obtain all the Parliamentary influence he could to defeat your forthcoming Motion. The Committee were not unanimous in passing the resolution. The Town Clerk says that Lord Arthur Hill has issued a four-line Whip to obtain the rejection of your Motion; and I am also told that the Clerk will use his influence with Mr. Courtney to obtain some Liberals."
    In these days even a four-line Whip by the Tory Party has ceased to be a formidable weapon; and I do not think that the supporters of the measure are likely to obtain the advocacy of any Liberal Members except the Chairman of Committees. The House, however, usually agrees with the suggestions of the Chairman of Committees as to Private Bills. No doubt, the House respects the position which the hon. Gentleman holds, and is anxious that it should be respected; but I am afraid that if the language and action of the Town Clerk of Belfast were brought under your notice, Sir, as a matter of privilege, that gentleman might find himself standing at the Bar of this House before he returned to Belfast. On the 14th of July last the Rathmines Bill, which had come down from the House of Lords, was considered in this House, and upon that occasion the right hon. Baronet the Member for Chelsea (Sir Charles W. Dilke) moved an Amendment analogous to the Resolution which I am now moving. The right hon. Baronet said—
    "As one of the Members of the Royal Commission, over which, indeed, he had had the honour to preside, he had become acquainted,

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    through the evidence adduced before it, with the pressing character of the evils which now existed in Ireland with regard to municipal representation, and of the necessity which existed for a reduction in the borough franchise."
    The right hon. Baronet added that—
    "The evidence of witness after witness given before the Commission—and he was bound to say that it was most uniform evidence—the evidence of witnesses belonging to every political Party from all parts of Ireland was of the strongest possible kind as to the effect of the very high franchise which at present existed in the Irish townships. The statement which was heard everywhere was that the franchise was limited to a certain class of people, by whom the representatives returned to the Irish municipalities were only capable of being elected. The effect in regard to the Town Commissioner-ships was to place the entire power, so far as election and administration was concerned, in the hands of a small ring of persons, upon whom the general public opinion of the locality could have no bearing whatever. The result of that was seen in the extreme difficulty which there was of securing a proper administration of the Sanitary Laws in the Irish townships, and in the fact that the death-rate in the Irish towns was threefold that of the rural districts in Ireland."—(3 Hansard, [299] 636–7.)
    The Motion of the right hon. Baronet was opposed only by two Members, both of whom were Members for the county of Dublin, and the only reason they gave for their opposition was the lateness of the period of the Session and the fact that the Bill had yet to go back to the House of Lords. That reason does not apply in the present case, as there is abundant time for the consideration of the Bill; and we have the further fact that the two hon. Members who opposed the Bill were neither of them returned for the county of Dublin at the last General Election. One of them—the hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Thanet Division of the county of Kent (Colonel King-Harman)—was obliged to seek for a seat in England, and the other—Mr. Ion Trant Hamilton, who again contested the representation of the county of Dublin—was defeated by my hon. Friend who now sits for the Southern Division (Sir Thomas Esmonde). Sir Arthur Otway, who then held the position of Chairman of Committees, took part in the debate, and said that—
    "Having given a great deal of consideration to this matter after the Amendment of his right hon. Friend the late President of the Local Government Board had been brought under his notice, he had come to the conclusion that it would not be proper to retain the franchise under which those Commissioners were elected. He was, therefore, prepared to advise the House
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    to consent to the Amendment of his right hon. Friend.…. When he looked into the matter he came to the conclusion that, under the circumstances in which they were living, with the changes that were constantly taking place, although this franchise had been in existence so far back as the year 1847, it was, nevertheless, of so restricted a character that it ought no longer to be retained for any township. He therefore supported the Amendment of his right hon. Friend, and advised the House to assent to it."—(Ibid. 650–1.)
    I would strongly recommend to the right hon. Gentleman the present Chairman of Committees the example of his Predecessor in the Office he holds. The right hon. Baronet the Member for Chelsea (Sir Charles W. Dilke) said, further, in moving his Amendment upon the Rathmines Bill—
    "The most likely objection he could foresee was this—'We admit that it is probable it may be desirable to reduce the borough franchise in Ireland, or the franchise for the election of Town Commissioners, and, indeed, all the local franchises in Ireland. But, although we admit that, we should not be prepared to reduce the franchise in the case of the first Private Bill which comes before the House this Session in which the question is raised.' He had considered that objection, believing that it might probably be taken to his present action. Of course, it might have some weight with the House, and some hon. Members might be persuaded by that view to refuse to alter the franchise in an exceptional case. He therefore felt fully the responsibility of the course he was taking; but, in the face of all the facts which had come to his knowledge, he felt that he could not be a party to the continuance of the present high franchise."—(Ibid. 640.)
    The right hon. Baronet moved his Amendment with a full knowledge of the objection which has since been taken by the Chairman of Committees, and yet the right hon. Baronet persevered with his Motion, and obtained the assent of the House to it. Further than that, the then Chairman of Committees (Sir Arthur Otway), although he entertained a high sense of the value of the scheme proposed to be carried out in the Rathmines Bill, was, nevertheless, prepared to accept the Amendment, even if, by so doing, he risked the loss of the Bill. Now, if that reform was of importance to Rathmines, it is indispensable to Belfast. Rathmines is simply a suburb of Dublin, where the houses are of such a description that almost the whole of the occupiers have votes; whereas in Belfast it is felt by the working men that there is not the slightest prospect of their obtaining any control over the expenditure connected

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    with the municipal affairs of the town unless my Amendment is adopted. I have been furnished with a Statement of Reasons on behalf of the Corporation of Belfast in opposition to my Motion, and it is said that the change ought not to be made except with adequate discussion. Now, for how many Sessions has this House been engaged in discussing the matter, and what is the use of wasting our time in further discussion, when we know that a radical change must be made in the Government of Ireland before any reasonable reform will be adopted by the House of Lords? This Paper says that the Resolution—
    "Emanates from a Gentleman representing a remote constituency in Ireland, having no concern with the borough of Belfast either as a resident or ratepayer."
    But this Amendment emanates from 85 out of 100 Irish constituencies, and I wonder at the taste of the gentlemen who put this reason forward, when they know very well that, at the last election for that borough, I obtained more votes than two of the gentlemen who are actually sitting for the borough. The Statement goes on to say—
    "There is no evidence of any desire on the part of the inhabitants and ratepayers for any such change as is proposed being effected by the present Bill, while all the Members for the new constituencies of Belfast are opposed to dealing with the municipal franchise in an exceptional manner."
    It is said that this question was not raised at the last municipal election for Belfast. Why should it have been raised there? The municipal elections in Belfast are controlled by a very narrow body of persons who have never shown themselves eager to extend the municipal franchise. What is far more important than the fact that the question was not raised at the last municipal election is the fact that it was raised at the Parliamentary Election, and two of the hon. Gentlemen now sitting above the Gangway presented themselves to the electors as municipal reformers, who adopted the principle I am now seeking to enforce. They were elected upon that principle, and upon that principle alone they succeeded in defeating Sir James Corry and Dr. Seeds—the regular candidates adopted by the Tory Party. The hon. Member for South Belfast (Mr. Johnston), early in the Session, introduced a Bill for the extension of the municipal franchise in Ireland; but the
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    hon. Member, from some inscrutable reason, has moved the discharge of the Order. The hon. Member has an unfortunate habit of saying one thing in Ireland and doing another in this House; but considering that my Motion, if carried, will effect the object he has in view, I venture to hope that I may promise myself the honour of his support. The promoters of the Bill go on to state in their reasons—
    "The present position of the Corporation of Belfast and its municipal affairs will be generally known to Members of the House as comparing favourably with that of any other town in Ireland; and the Corporation of Belfast, and the important commercial and mercantile classes of that town, would probably prefer to continue subject to the existing difficulties in regard to the pollution of the River Lagan and the sewerage of the town, rather than that the municipal arrangements should be revolutionized in the manner and to the extent now proposed. The proposal is, in fact, an attack from outside on the town of Belfast, and the Corporation would not feel justified in making such a sweeping change without a distinct expression of opinion in its favour from the inhabitants generally."
    Yes, Sir, this ring which at present controls the government of Belfast, and the expenditure of £200,000 a-year, would rather have the death-rate of the town influenced by the present condition of the sewage, and the inhabitants be liable to pestilence, than that the ratepayers generally should be admitted to a share in the government of the town. If that does not satisfy the House of the spirit by which the Corporation of Belfast are actuated and their moral incompetence to continue the performance of their functions, I cannot imagine what argument will. My Motion is supported by five-sixths of the Members from Ireland; it is sure to be supported by the Members of the Liberal Party who have affirmed over and over again the principle I seek to carry out; and I shall be greatly surprised if the Motion is opposed by the Party above the Gangway who arrogate to themselves the position, in an inclusive sense, of being the champions of the Protestants of Ireland. Sir, I beg to move the insertion of the clause which stands upon the Paper in my name.
    COLONEL DUNCAN: Although a Tory, I rise to second the Motion of the hon. Member; and I rise perfectly independent of my brother Conservative Members. I am acting

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    purely of my own free will; but I think that, although I approach the question from a very different standpoint from the hon. Member who has just sat down, I am right in saying that he has adopted a correct view of the matter, and that in carrying this Motion we should do something to place the Irish municipal franchise and local government in Ireland upon that footing of equality with local government in other parts of Great Britain on which it ought to stand. I confess that I differ very much from hon. Members who sit below the Gangway on that question of Home Rule which is so dear to them; but I have always recognized the propriety of stimulating the action of the Government in taking steps to remodel the existing municipal system throughout the United Kingdom. On more than one occasion when I have at first felt opinions strongly opposed to the views of the Irish Members on some matters, I have been convinced by their arguments, and I have found myself in the same Lobby with them. I am prepared to admit that there is a certain amount of eccentricity, and it may be inconvenience, in tacking on a general principle to a clause of a Private Bill; but if there is no other way of carrying the point, I am not going to quarrel with it. If I had any doubts as to the course I ought to take on this subject, those doubts would have been removed by the paper which has been circulated among Members this morning by the promoters of the Bill. That paper is very contradictory in its terms, as I hope presently to show. During the late Election I was one of the many Conservative candidates opposed to Home Rule; but I always expressed a readiness to give to the Irish people precisely the same advantages which are given to the English and Scotch people; and I desire to remove all those differential hardships which are supposed to exist in the Sister Kingdom. I have no desire to go back from my words now; and I think the hon. Member has proved satisfactorily that in this particular instance a grievance does exist in Belfast. As a Tory, I have an idea that, in politics as in surgery, when a sore is discovered the best thing is to eliminate it, and that there is no advantage in concealing it, denying it, or maintaining it. I have no doubt that a sore does exist with regard to the people
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    of Belfast in not being allowed to exercise the franchise, although they are required to contribute to the rates. It seems to me preposterous to give the Parliamentary franchise to these people and to deny them the municipal franchise. I have always looked upon the exercise of the municipal franchise, in relation to the Parliamentary franchise, as something like a primary school distinguished from the secondary school. If we desire that those upon whom we have conferred the Parliamentary franchise should exercise it well, why deny to them the education which will undoubtedly be given to the people by the possession of the municipal franchise? In this document we are told that there is already a Bill before the House covering the whole general question—namely, the Municipal Franchise (Ireland) Bill—and that it has passed through certain stages. I can only say that if the effect of the Motion which has just been moved will be to stir up the Government and hurry through that Bill I shall be delighted, and I am certain that in that case this Resolution might be withdrawn. But we are reminded of the now classical expression, "that the sands are dropping through the hour-glass," and unless the Government are almost omnipotent it will be difficult to pass many of the Bills which we now have before the House. We are told that the admission of so many ratepayers of Belfast to the franchise is viewed with something like horror by the promoters of this Bill, and, therefore, the support of those gentlemen would not be likely to be given to the Municipal Franchise Bill which has been referred to. For my part, I look upon this Resolution as a very mild one, indeed, after the discussions we have had during the past half-century in favour of municipal reform. Why should we refuse to grant the municipal franchise in Ireland as in England? The valley of Parliamentary debate for the last 50 years is strewn with the dry bones of arguments against extension, and there is no intellectual magician in the House who can stir those dead bones into life? Therefore, I think it is absolutely a waste of time in this House to raise up the question of the franchise again, and also a great waste of energy, however honest Members may be, in wishing to discuss the

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    question. In the present case a large number of those who contribute to the rates have no power to participate in the municipal government under which they live. We have given to the people the power of exercising the political franchise, and surely it would be wise to instruct them how to exercise that power beneficially which we have so given to them. What is the use of giving a sword to a man and refusing to teach him how to use it lest it may be used against those who give it? It should be remembered that, in the end, if the man who has the sword directs it against the man who has given it, he may inflict clumsy wounds, because he has not been taught, but his arm will be nerved by a sense of anger at not being trusted. When we have once decided upon arming the people and conferring power upon them, we ought to witness with pleasure their skill in using the weapon with which we have armed them. I can quite understand that Parliament may refuse to give it if it thought it right to refuse; but, having once given it, I do not understand why we should do anything to minimize the value of the gift. Let us trust all in all, or not at all. We want to see in this country all classes working together; and I think it would be much better if we were to show in this House that we are anxious to see the people upon whom we have conferred the franchise exercise it beneficially by intrusting them also with the municipal franchise, rather than by imposing little barriers here and there. I feel, as a Conservative, that the barriers which now exist between class and class, created simply by the possession of wealth and educacation, or by circumstance, are things which a child's foot might kick away, and that they will do no harm unless they are cemented with the hardening mortar of a sense of injustice. Let us do away with every idea of injustice which may have been introduced into the minds of those to whom we have just given political power. I am quite sure that if we had carried out more of this principle in the past the cry for Home Rule would not have become so accentuated as it now is. Let us now try to be just and endeavour to trust the people. It is perhaps an eccentric mode of dealing with the subject to insert a principle of general law into a Private
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    Bill; but unless something is done to arrest the proposed expenditure of public money in Belfast, however desirable that expenditure may be, until the people feel that they have their full share in controlling the expenditure, we shall only intensify the feeling of injustice which now prevails. I am not one of those who believe that the interests of the small ratepayers are hostile to those of the large ratepayers. On the contrary, I believe that the interests of both are absolutely identical. People are rated according to their means, and if a man is guilty of encouraging municipal extravagance he soon finds that it recoils upon himself, and that the small and large ratepayers suffer in equal proportion. As we have done so much in conferring Parliamentary power upon the people, let us do a little more; and although we view these matters from a very different point of view, I hope it will be admitted that we can even discuss Irish local affairs and Irish local administration effectively. Perhaps the hon. Member who has just moved this Resolution thinks and hopes for something very different from what I do. I dare say he believes that if this Motion is rejected, he will be justified in maintaining that another argument has been forged for him to use both here and in Ireland as to the impossibility of obtaining justice for Ireland in this House. Now, I feel that Irishmen do know a great deal in regard to what they want; that they are not people to be legislated for, but that they have a right to legislate in their local affairs for themselves; and if the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary will give some assurance that the general question of the municipal franchise in that country will be pushed forward, I hope that the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) will withdraw the Motion. ["No!"] If such an assurance as that is not given, I can only say that, having studied the question on both sides, I shall undoubtedly feel it my duty, as a Tory, to go into the Lobby with the hon. Gentleman.
    New Clause (Part 12.—Municipal Franchise,)—brought up, and read the first time.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be now read a second time."
    THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. JOHN MORLEY): I must congratulate the hon. and gallant Member who has just spoken upon having made a most eloquent exposition of sound Radical doctrine. And I think the whole spirit of his remarks, when he comes to make, as we all hope he will, a speech upon another Bill that is before the House, should be to the same effect as that which has now animated him. [Colonel DUNCAN dissented.] The hon. and gallant Member shakes his head; but I do not see why he should limit the principles he has so forcibly laid down to the Bill now before the House. The hon. and gallant Member has thrown out a suggestion which has already occurred to my own mind as the proper and best way of meeting the views of the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton). Upon the merits of the hon. Member's Amendment we are most of us on this side of the House absolutely at one with the hon. Gentleman. It is impossible to defend a state of things under which some 4,000 or 5,000 persons decide questions which, if Belfast were an English constituency, would be decided by 25,000 or 30,000. That is a state of things which cannot be defended politically, and it produces a vast number of exceedingly evil social results. I remember a discussion on the Municipal Franchise (Ireland) Bill in the earlier part of this Session, in which I reminded the House that the death-rate in Ireland was lower than the death-rate in England, while the death-rate in the Irish boroughs is higher than in the English boroughs. One very reasonable explanation of that is to be found in the fact that in the English boroughs the population have a very direct influence on the regulation of the affairs of the town, whereas in Ireland this regulation is confined to a very small oligarchy of the people. The hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) at once saw the changed aspect put upon his Amendment since he moved his Instruction much earlier in the Session on referring the Bill to a Select Committee. Since that time the House has read a second time a Public Bill extending to the Irish boroughs the same rights in regard to the municipal franchise as those maintained in the English boroughs. That being the case, it seems to me that it would be particularly undesirable and equivocal to
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    admit the extension of the franchise to the borough of Belfast by a side wind when the House has already affirmed the principle of the propriety of that extension, not only in reference to Belfast, but in regard to all the boroughs in Ireland. Now, what we propose is that we should give facilities for taking up the Bill relating to the extension of the municipal franchise in Ireland at such an hour that it would evade a block. The hon. Gentleman said that very likely the same fate would await the Municipal Franchise (Ireland) Bill "elsewhere" as has affected proposals of the same kind in other years. I do not know how that may be, but I may remind the hon. Member that whatever the direction of probability may be, it is equally probable that the same decision may be applied to this Bill when it reaches "another place" if it contains a clause in the sense of the hon. Member's Amendment. Either the whole Bill or the clause may share the same fate which he apprehends for the Municipal Franchise Bill. [Mr. SEXTON: Let the Bill wait.] The hon. Member says—"Let the Bill wait." I should have thought that in taking up that position the hon. Member was placing himself exactly in the position which he reproaches the promoters of the Bill for taking up in the Circular which they have issued to Members of this House—a position which, I am bound to say, seems to me not only astonishing but most indefensible. The Corporation say—
    "The present position of the Corporation of Belfast and its municipal affairs will be generally known to Members of the House as comparing favourably with that of any other town in Ireland; and the Corporation of Belfast, and the important commercial and mercantile classes of that town, would probably prefer to continue subject to the existing difficulties in regard to the pollution of the River Lagan and the sewerage of the town, rather than that the municipal arrangements should be revolutionized in the manner and to the extent now proposed. The proposal is, in fact, an attack from outside on the town of Belfast, and the Corporation would not feel justified in making such a sweeping change without a distinct expression of opinion in its favour from the inhabitants generally."
    That is the position which the hon. Gentleman himself is now ready to take up. [Mr. SEXTON: No.] I cannot distinguish between that position and the one occupied by the promoters of the Bill. It is to my mind a position that is most indefensible.
    MR. SEXTON: Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to explain? I say that the Corporation of Belfast should give up the scheme until they can give the ratepayers an opportunity of expressing their opinion with regard to it. I say that the scheme should be postponed until the ratepayers are admitted to power.
    MR. JOHN MORLEY: In either case the ratepayers of Belfast will continue to be poisoned by bad drainage. Now, Sir, I will not argue the matter further, but will say that we make the offer in perfect good faith, believing that the passage of the Municipal Franchise (Ireland) Bill will be a very great boon to the Irish boroughs. We see, therefore, no reason why the hon. Member and his Friends should not accept the broader position we offer them, instead of the narrow one that they now hold.
    MR. T. M. HEALY: I think the right hon. Gentleman somewhat misapprehends our position. A Circular, in the form of a threat, conveying some sort of intimation that the Bill will be lost if this Amendment is added, has been issued by the promoters. I would, however, remind the House that exactly the same intimation was conveyed last year to us by the promoters of the Rathmines Bill before the Amendment which was proposed by the right hon. Baronet the Member for Chelsea (Sir Charles W. Dilke) was added to the Bill. It was said then, as it is threatened now—"We will abandon the Bill if you insert that clause." An hon. and gallant Member who then represented the county of Dublin, but who now represents the Isle of Thanet (Colonel King-Harman), and Mr. Ion Trant Hamilton, who also represented the county of Dublin, but who is no longer a Member of this House, said—"If you insert this clause the promoters will be inclined to drop the Bill. The House of Lords will throw it out." Well, the House of Lords did not throw it out. The House of Lords were friendly to these gentlemen, and they surrendered upon that Bill, as they will have to do upon this. The promoters having spent hundreds, and, perhaps, thousands, of pounds on the Bill, will not be inclined to waste all that money if they know that the House of Commons will insist upon this Amendment. The House of Commons has a grip on the House of Lords in regard to
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    Private Bills which I wish they had as regards Public Bills. It is, however, a novel and an exceptional position. In respect to Private Bills we have got the House of Lords in a vice, for this reason—that the promoters are on terms of friendship with many of them. They have invested money in the promotion of the Bill, and they will not be content to let it drop. I therefore invite the House of Commons to insist upon the Amendment. I have to tell the right hon. Gentleman that his proposal to give us a day for discussing the Bill will not meet the case at all, for this reason—it would meet the same opposition as this clause from Gentlemen who are all of one view. Let us take this Bill as a hostage until the House of Lords have passed the Franchise Bill. Let us have an adjournment of this debate, and postpone the Belfast Drainage Bill until the other has passed. Is it nothing that £500,000 is proposed to be spent by a little narrow ring in Belfast who were signally defeated during the last Parliamentary Election, by the return of the hon. Members for South Belfast (Mr. Johnston) and East Belfast (Mr. De Cobain)? Everything at the last Election turned upon this question, and it resulted in the defeat of the former Member (Sir James Corry), who was beaten in his own town on this very question, and who is now Member for Mid Armagh. One of the Gentleman who won a seat as an Orange Democrat was the dismissed cashier of the Corporation. He was dismissed by the Corporation because he had opposed their candidate, Sir James Corry, who received a Baronetcy for his services to the Tory Government. We are told that we want to injure Belfast—we are told we want to restrict its liberties—but here, Sir, when we are attempting to extend and amplify the liberties of Ulster, we are opposed by the Torty Party, who say we want to restrict them. I have said that it is an immense amount of money that this Corporation propose to expend—an expenditure amounting to £500,000 sterling—and all we say is, that every capable citizen in Belfast ought to be allowed to have a voice in the matter. It is said that if you delay the Bill the people of Belfast will be poisoned; but they have been poisoned for 20 years. The death-rate has still, however, not yet arrived at any extra-

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    ordinary high figure. We in this House are also being poisoned. We have been poisoned more or less for 20 years, and are none the worse for it. I therefore think that such arguments are wholly irrelevant. I trust the House will adhere firmly to the principle we have laid down, and until the House of Lords passes the larger Bill, it is our duty to insist that this Bill should go up to the House of Lords with a Franchise Clause inserted in it.
    MR. HASLETT: We have had a number of instances quoted, but no good authority has been given for inserting a clause of this class in a Private Bill promoted for an entirely different object. The instance of the Rathmines Bill has been quoted as a precedent for the course now proposed to be taken; but the Rathmines Bill, not only in its clauses, but actually in its advertisement, contained statements, covering the question of franchise, through which the public were made acquainted with all the purposes of the Bill. I think it would be inopportune to accept such a clause as is now proposed, seeing that the entire subject is one upon which legislation is pending. The Rathmines Bill, besides being a Private Bill, related to certain districts outside Dublin—[Mr. SEXTON: This is a Private Bill.] [A laugh.] I am quite aware that this is a Private Bill. If the hon. Gentleman would wait until he heard the remainder of my sentence, he would probably find that the laugh might be turned against him. My argument is, that while this is a Private Bill, and the Rathmines Bill was also a Private Bill, yet, in connection with the latter Bill, public Notice was given of the contemplated Amendment. My contention is, that due Notice ought to be given of any intention to change the character of the Governing Body. That was done in regard to the Rathmines Bill, but it is wanting here; and, therefore, the analogy is entirely fallacious. On the last occasion when the Bill was before the House, and we were asked to pass a similar but somewhat larger Resolution, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in a very clear manner, pointed out the great inconvenience which would arise if questions of public policy were introduced into these Private Bills; and I now commend that consideration to the House. I am bound to say that, for
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    the convenience of the House, no wiser or clearer principle could be laid down than that which was laid down on that occasion, both by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Chairman of Committees. The hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton), with an evident intention of catching the votes of hon. Members through the principle he puts forward, asks the House to pass his clause, with a view to equalize the franchise in the various Irish boroughs to that which exists in England and Scotland, and even in Dublin. But the hon. Member does not inform the House that his clause would not accomplish that object, and he keeps back the information that in not one solitary instance he has spoken of would there be an assimilation of franchise. The proposed clause would give the franchise to "every occupier" and to "every joint occupier of a house" under the old system. We might have, I suppose, 30 men occupying one house, and though only paying 1s. a-week rent each, they would all be capable of exercising the municipal franchise. The hon. Member asks, moreover, to give the franchise for six months' occupation, while Dublin requires three years' occupation.
    MR. T. M. HEALY: No, no. That is repealed. It is not so now.
    MR. HASLETT: I am aware it is said to be partly repealed.
    MR. T. M. HEALY: It is absolutely repealed.
    MR. HASLETT: Only partially repealed.
    MR. T. M. HEALY: No; absolutely.
    MR. HASLETT: The qualification in England is 12 months' occupation. In regard to Scotland, I cannot say what it is, because it varies in different boroughs, and yet we are asked to pass a clause to extend the franchise, and to assimilate it to the franchise in other boroughs, when, as a matter of fact, it is almost impossible to find throughout the whole of Ireland a parallel case. Is it unreasonable, therefore, that we should ask that great public issues of this kind should be decided by Public Acts of Parliament, and not by a Private Bill which can apply to one town only? The hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) dwelt very strongly upon £500,000 being required to carry out this scheme, notwithstanding the fact that, as a Member of

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    the Committee, he had sworn testimony before him from a respectable constructor of sewers, who has done an immense amount of work of that kind even in Dublin, that he was prepared to carry out the works in Belfast for the sum named in the Bill. Yet the hon. Member, in defiance of that testimony given before himself as a Member of the Committee, said that it would cost double that sum, and would throw great hardship upon the town to meet it. The entire taxation in one year under this Bill cannot exceed £15,000, of which the larger ratepayers who now possess the franchise will contribute £12,000. There has been a distinct expression of opinion from these larger ratepayers of the borough on this very question of drainage. Then, again, we are asked to consider this Bill, which relates to Belfast only, in conjunction with an Act which has been passed for Rathmines. I do not know how the Rathmines Act was procured. I only know that the clause relating to the franchise, which was inserted in it by this House, simply altered the amount of the franchise. That alteration was previously notified to the public, who had full opportunity of expressing their opinions upon it; but a similar course has not been adopted in regard to this Bill. For once I agree, and I am glad to do so, with the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland that a question of this kind is much better dealt with on a broad basis than the mere question of the alteration of the franchise within the narrow limits of a single borough which would leave all the other boroughs in Ireland in an exceptional position. It has been said that there have been very strong protests against this Bill. I know of none. I have lived in Belfast all my life, and I am not aware of it. There may have been Petitions, but they were not public Petitions, and I have not seen them, and I know nothing of their scope, and, indeed, I never heard of them until now, though, no doubt, as the hon. Member speaks about them, there have been Petitions. All I can say is that I know nothing about them. I remember, however, that on a former occasion we were told that certain witnesses, who desired to be heard against the Bill, were so poor that they were unable to pay the expenses of coming from Belfast to London to give evidence. Yet those poor
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    witnesses, who were said to be two poor to bear the expense of coming to London, and on whose behalf the hon. Member presented a Petition, were afterwards found sitting in the House, having come over, at their own expense no doubt, for the purpose of priming the hon. Member with information. We have been told that the artizans of Belfast are cruelly wronged, and that owing to the heavy taxation imposed by the Corporation rents have been doubled. I can bear testimony, as the owner of a very considerable amount of house property, to the fact that the rents have been doubled in the wrong direction. [A laugh.] Hon. Members from England and Scotland are not likely to understand what I mean. But all my Irish Friends will thoroughly understand the Irishism. The houses of the Belfast artizans have been worth less within the last two or three years, by 20 per cent, than they were formerly. Their value has fallen, and the reason is, not that the population has decreased, but that capital has gone in that direction. The result is that the Belfast artizans can now command a better house and better accommodation than can be obtained for the same money in any other town I have visited—and I have seen a good many—in England and Scotland. ["Oh!"] Yes; I maintain that statement, for I speak from my own personal knowledge. I have lived in Belfast all my life, and I have not acquired my knowledge as a passing stranger visiting special streets for a few hours for special purposes. If any complaint can be justly made it is in reference only to the older portions of the town, and these are being cleared away as rapidly as we can, with a view to improvements, without injury to their poor occupants. Hitherto the difficulty has been that frequently these houses are the only income the poor people have, and we have accordingly shrunk from depriving them of them. But in this Bill we have introduced a clause which will enable us to pay any persons whose dwellings it is found necessary, for sanitary reasons, and for the general public good, to deprive them of. I do not know whether this House requires any information in regard to Belfast. A good deal of information was given to the Royal Commission, and the town was complimented for the manner in which the artizans are housed. The

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    hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) says that the lighting, paving, and sanitary state of Belfast are a disgrace to civilization. All that is utterly beside the question, and it is not in accordance with facts. We have been told that the streets are paved with "petrified kidneys." Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, you never heard that expression before, but it is the nearest description which can be arrived at of the old mode of paving some of the smaller thoroughfares. But it must be remembered that, even in an important city like Belfast, it is impossible to overtake all the desired improvements at once; and it must also be borne in mind that this is a kind of pavement which cost 2s. or 2s. 2d. a-yard, whereas the more modern flagging would cost from 7s. to 7s. 6d. a-yard. Up to a recent period the Corporation of Belfast, in applying to Parliament for special powers, did not consider it necessary to interfere with the gradual development of the town by compulsory legislation; but, for the information of the hon. Member for Sligo and the House, I may say that in recent Acts they have taken power to compel the flagging of the streets, and they refuse to allow the streets to be paved except with flags. A resolution has been passed that every square yard of the old paving shall be taken up and replaced with flagging at a cost of one-third to the owner and two-thirds to the general taxpayers of the town. Surely no more reasonable proposal could be made in view of all the difficulties. We are flagging our leading thoroughfares as fast as we can, and we are providing funds for the complete flagging of the town, from the centre outwards, as our funds enable us, without unduly pressing on the taxpayers. We hope to overtake the work very speedily. In spite of all this, we are asked if we are afraid to trust the people. I know the artizans of Belfast intimately, and I am prepared to state here broadly that I am neither afraid nor ashamed to trust them with the franchise; but I also know that the artizans of Belfast are prepared to express their opinion that they would prefer the general Act dealing with the question to the proposal of the hon. Member for Sligo. [Mr. T. M. HEALY: What is it to them?] It is everything to them. They knew perfectly well that with the general Act will come the enlargement of
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    the boroughs. ["No!"] I believe the larger Bill will be passed. If I can help it I certainly will do so, and when the general Bill comes on I shall be ready to give my most earnest attention to every line connected with the franchise in the boroughs. ["Oh!"] If hon. Members below the Gangway are not prepared to do the same, they will, perhaps, find the subject dealt with in a manner they scarcely expect. In conclusion, allow me to come back again to the main question, and to ask the House if it is wise in a Private Bill to adopt a general principle of public law which is absolutely new? ["No!"] I repeat that it is absolutely new. What precedent can be cited for inserting in a Private Bill a Franchise Clause which is altogether foreign to the Bill?—a Franchise Clause of which no public Notice has been given—which is not hinted at in the provisions of the Bill itself, and upon which the inhabitants who will be influenced by it have had no opportunity of expressing an opinion. Is the House prepared to take a course which may hereafter be used as a lever for legislation of the most inconvenient kind? I think the House is scarcely prepared to take such a course. I trust that the good sense of hon. Members will induce them to reject the clause which has now been submitted, and that in fairness and justice they will decide that the duty of effecting a large alteration in the municipal franchise of an important city should be thrown upon a Public Act and not upon a Private Bill.
    MR. STOREY: I only wish to say two or three sentences. I am anxious that it should not be left to the hon. and gallant Member for Finsbury (Colonel Duncan) solely to utter Radical opinions on this question. I heard what my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary proposed; but I cannot help thinking that the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) would be wise to prefer a bird in the hand to a possible two that there may be in the bush. I cannot pretend to understand the speech of the hon. Member for West Belfast (Mr. Haslett). I only comprehended one sentence of it, and it was the one in which the hon. Member said he was not afraid to trust the people, but that he is quite willing to grant an extended municipal franchise, not only to the inhabitants of Belfast, but to the people

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    of every other borough in Ireland. If that be really so, I ask him why he does not take the present available opportunity of doing so? I certainly think the Chief Secretary ought to listen to the appeal which has been made to him on this question. He put the case in this way—that if the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) will consent to withdraw the Resolution, the general measure for dealing with the municipal franchise in Ireland may be pushed on; the Government will use their influence to have it passed, and in that way the hon. Member will gain his point. May I put the matter in this way? The general measure may pass this Session or it may not. If it does not, then the hon. Member by passing this Resolution will secure an object which we all, both Liberals and Tories, admit to be necessary and just. If, on the other hand, the General Bill does pass this Session, of which I entertain some doubt, then this clause will become merged in the general law, so that I do not see what inconvenience would arise from inserting it at the present moment. For this reason, without troubling the House further, I, at any rate, intend to vote for the clause which has been moved by my hon. Friend.
    MR. SCLATER - BOOTH: The hon. Member who moved this clause cast no imputation upon the Committee which considered the merits of this Bill, and over which I had the honour of presiding. I will not, therefore, take up the time of the House by defending the action of the Committee. I will merely say that the plan of main drainage proposed by the Bill is a reasonable one, that it will be carried out in the usual way, and that it has received the approval of the most eminent authorities upon the subject of main drainage who exist in the United Kingdom. Then what I desire to put to the House is this—the hon. Gentleman does not go so far as to say that this plan is a bad one, or that it is not required in the interests of the inhabitants of the town of Belfast.
    MR. SEXTON: I said nothing at all about the plan.
    MR. SCLATER-BOOTH: I am aware of that; but if the hon. Gentleman's Motion is carried, it may have the effect of prejudicing the future progress of the Bill. The hon. Member takes it as
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    a matter of course that the new constituency which he proposes to create will take the line carved out for them by their predecessors; but I do not see that that would at all follow. By assenting to such a clause, I think that the House would be not only setting a very inconvenient precedent, and one that is entirely unknown, but would be doing something calculated to bring the whole conduct of Public and Private Business into confusion. It might also inflict a serious evil upon the town of Belfast by delaying for an indefinite period the prosecution of this main drainage scheme. It is said that the House of Lords will throw out the Bill, or that, at any rate, they will throw out this clause. Undoubtedly, they would have very good reason for doing so, if they found that advantage was taken of the peculiar privileges afforded by our system of Private Bill legislation to prejudge a question which ought to be dealt with by a general measure, and which is, in fact, dealt with by a Bill now before the House which has already received a second reading, and in regard to which it simply rests with the Government to say whether it shall pass into law this Session or not. I therefore trust that the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) will accept the invitation of the Chief Secretary, and will consent to withdraw the Motion. It might really seem, from some of the language which has been used in the debate, that it was the duty of the Corporation of Belfast to propose, in a Private Bill, an extension of the municipal franchise. Not only was it not their duty to do so, but they would have laid themselves open to serious comment if they had endeavoured, by Private Bill legislation, to anticipate the views of Parliament on the general subject. That is a very important question of principle in regard to which, I imagine, there will be very little dispute. I certainly do not know what anomalies might not be introduced into the provisions of a Private Bill, if this clause dealing with the municipal franchise in Ireland is to pass. Then, again, it is quite possible that the question of the municipal franchise may eventually be dealt with in the General Bill in a very different manner. I really think that the House would be taking an unprecedented step if it were to accept the proposal of the

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    hon. Member, and I hope on reconsideration that the hon. Member himself will accept the advice of the Chief Secretary.
    MR. BRADLAUGH: If I could feel sure that the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down is correct in the statement he has made to the House, I should not feel it necessary to rise. He has told us that it only depends on the Government whether the General Bill which is to extend the municipal franchise throughout Ireland shall become law this Session. If I could feel sure that he was authorized to speak for his Party in the other House, or if he will give any intimation that he is so authorized, I will not detain the House for one second further with any remarks of mine. I presume that the silence of the right hon. Gentleman must be taken to mean that while he desires to see the general measure pass, he is not quite sure that his Friends in "another place" would give the same aid in carrying out his wishes that he would himself. Now, I quite feel that the Chief Secretary for Ireland has made a very generous offer to the Irish Members; but if the hon. Member who moved the clause goes to a division upon it, I certainly intend to go into the Lobby with him. I therefore deem it necessary to say why I so intend. I do not believe that the Government are strong enough to carry the General Bill in the other House. I do believe that the general disposition of the other House is to throw out Bills of this nature, and to prevent any kind of extension of the suffrage. They would, therefore, delay the passing of this Bill; and I feel that the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, if he does not agree with me in opinion, will, at any rate, agree with me in the result. I am going to vote for the clause, because it is one which embodies, as I understand it, a principle which has been repeatedly affirmed in this House, and repeatedly rejected in the other. Although, therefore, I agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary that it is undesirable to get by a side wind that which ought to be asserted in a general Act of Parliament, yet when the broad proposition cannot be obtained, but has been rejected over and over again, I am in favour of obtaining a recognition of the principle in
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    the best way I can. I submit that that is not an unconstitutional course; and I think it will be within the memory of some of the Members of this House that there have been occasions when desirable legislation on the part of this House has been rejected in "another place." I will not go into the wider matter, but some hon. Members will recollect that a clause securing the repeal of the taxes on knowledge found its place into a particular Bill, simply because a more direct measure had been rejected by the House of Lords, and it was known that they would not reject the entire Bill, however reluctant they might be to assent to this one part of it. But, if I understand rightly, there has already been one Private Bill passed in the House of Lords in which the Suffrage Question has been dealt with; and I intend to vote for this clause in the hope that, if a general measure does not pass, at any rate this Bill may pass, and it will be an assertion of the Radicals to allow no opportunity to slip by which an extension of the municipal franchise can be secured.
    MR. DILLON: The right hon. Gentleman who spoke from the Front Bench on this side of the House (Mr. John Morley) made an appeal to us not to proceed with this Motion, as there is every reason to suppose that it may be settled on the broader questions involved in the general Bill. But we have the best evidence, and I need not go further than the Paper circulated by the Corporation of Belfast against this Motion, to show that they will oppose to the very utmost the settlement of the question on the broader basis; for what do they say? They say that they will be content to allow the Bill to drop, and the population of Belfast to suffer from all the evils they propose to remove by their Bill, rather than allow the working men of Belfast to have the municipal franchise extended. They know perfectly well that the moment an extension of the municipal franchise is secured, the supreme influence of the Tory Party in the Town Council will be destroyed, and the insertion of this clause in the present Bill will be quite sufficient for the purpose. Therefore, in the event of the withdrawal of this clause, all their influence, and that of the Tory Party generally, would be brought to bear upon the other House of Parliament to

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    reject the general measure which the Chief Secretary has kindly offered to push through this House. When the Bill reached the other House it would be immediately dealt with as it has repeatedly been before. Now, what are the facts of the case in regard to the proposal to settle the Irish municipal franchise on a wider basis? We are told that the Bill has been read a second time in this House. How many times has it been already read a second time in the House of Commons and not passed? Will hon. Members be surprised to hear that it has passed the House of Commons four or five times; that it was read a second time 10 years ago, and that it has not yet succeeded in passing the House of Lords? The hon. Member for West Belfast (Mr. Haslett) has political Friends in the House of Lords, who have slaughtered the Bill over and over again, and we have listened to the latest apologia from the Corporation of the City of Belfast for not accepting the extension of the franchise which my hon. Friend the Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) proposes in his clause. The hon. Member for West Belfast has succeeded in demonstrating to the House his extraordinary ignorance of the state of Irish municipal law, and of the custom and procedure of this House. He said that the term of occupation in Dublin is three years, whereas that provision has been repealed by an Act which became law last year, and it is now enacted that the period shall be 12 months' occupation. That is a specimen of how careful the hon. Member has been in acquiring a knowledge of the law of the subject. Then he also said that under the Municipal Bill the boundaries of Belfast will be extended, whereas there is no such proposal in the Bill at all. That shows the great interest he takes in the general scheme for dealing with the question on a broad basis. We know that there is very little chance of extending the franchise in the borough of Belfast so as to give the ratepayers a voice in the spending of the money, and what we want is that the general body of the people of Belfast should have a voice in the execution of this great work, so that it shall no longer be possible for the richer parts of the town to be well drained, while the poorer parts are badly drained and altogether neglected.
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    The right hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Sclater-Booth) said that nobody before the Committee complained of the scheme or of any of its details. We make no complaint of the plan; but what we desire is that the plan, which will take six or seven years to bring to a conclusion, shall be executed under control of the people who are directly interested in its execution. The execution of the plan is far more important to the people of Belfast than many hon. Members seem to suppose, and we want that they should have full control not only over the execution of the work, but over the expenditure connected with it and the raising of the money. We know, further, that this is our only chance of bringing about a change; if we let this Bill go without this clause we shall have no chance whatever. I come now to the offer which has been made by the Chief Secretary, That offer looked a tempting and plausible offer; but I maintain that the right hon. Gentleman has made an offer which he has no power to carry out. He made the offer to pass the Municipal Franchise Bill through this House. So far so good. He has the power to do that; but he has no power to secure that the Bill shall pass through in "another place." We, however, have the power to secure that this clause shall become law; and what we are invited to do is to abandon that which we have power to do for the sake of another measure, the fate of which is extremely doubtful. The offer of the Chief Secretary cannot secure for us the extension of the municipal franchise in the borough of Belfast; but we believe that the passing of this clause would carry out that object, because, in spite of the braggadocia of hon. Members on the other side, I think the House of Lords would pause before they sacrificed the whole of the Bill, and the expense which the promoters have already incurred in connection with it, for the sake of rejecting this provision. Therefore, if this clause is insisted upon and inserted in the Bill, it will result in one of two things—it will either appear in this Private Bill, or the General Bill, dealing with the question on a wider basis, will be allowed to go through the House of Lords. However, by way of a compromise, what I propose to do is this—to move the adjourment of this debate, and that it should be adjourned to such

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    a period as will enable the House to test the power of the Chief Secretary to settle the question on a broad basis. If the General Bill goes through the House of Lords and becomes law, I need hardly say that my hon. Friend will withdraw his clause and any further opposition to the Private Bill; and I have no doubt, if the hon. Members for Belfast are sincere in their professions, they can assist the Chief Secretary very materially in securing that the General Bill shall become law. I will, therefore, move that the debate be adjourned to this day four weeks, so as to give a reasonable time to see if the Chief Secretary can carry out his offer; and then, if the General Bill becomes law, we will withdraw our opposition; but if that Bill is slaughtered by the House of Lords, every Member of this House will recognize the reasonableness, the justice, and the necessity of the Motion of my hon. Friend as the only mode by which we can achieve the object we have in view.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Dillon.)
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT): I think the hon. Member has made a very reasonable proposal, and I hope the House will agree to it without a division. There are two points which are quite clear as far as we are concerned. We think it is a very objectionable proceeding to deal with general questions in a Private Bill. On the other hand, there is no doubt—no one has risen in this debate to deny—that the municipal franchise in Belfast is in a most unsatisfactory state. Even the hon. Member for West Belfast (Mr. Haslett) has admitted that fact. The Government are prepared to give facilities for pomoting the general measure for putting that matter on a proper footing, and I may assume that we may count on the support of the Members on that side of the House. After the speech of the hon. Member for West Belfast I presume they are prepared to do their best in getting the Bill through. It would not, under those circumstances, take very long to pass through this House. It would then have to go to "another place." We have heard predictions made on both sides of the House as to what may happen to the Bill there.
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    The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Sclater-Booth) is confident that it will pass. I do not know whether that will be so or not; but if the Bill did not pass hon. Members sitting below the Gangway will have acquired the strongest and most convincing argument in favour of Home Rule they can possibly desire. If the House of Lords were to refuse a Municipal Franchise Bill—to refuse that which the hon. Member for West Belfast (Mr. Haslett) declares to be a proper Bill—an argument would be provided in favour of Home Rule such as could not be answered. I therefore assume, with the right hon. Gentleman, that the Bill will succeed. That being so, before the period to which the hon. Member proposes to adjourn the debate arrives, we shall probably have reached the object desired in an unobjectionable manner. I, therefore, trust that that course will be adopted.
    SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH: I do not know what course the hon. Gentlemen who represent Belfast in this House may feel it necessary to take on this subject; but it appears to me that if the proposal of the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) is accepted, the town of Belfast may find itself in a somewhat remarkable and awkward position. It is admitted—at least I have not heard it denied—that this Bill is in itself a necessary and a proper Bill; that it contains powers which the Corporation of Belfast ought to possess, and which, indeed, it is necessary for them to have for the proper government of the town. But, Sir, this debate is now proposed to be adjourned until such time as Parliament shall have decided upon a general proposal to reduce the municipal franchise in boroughs throughout Ireland to the point at which hon. Members below the Gangway desire it to stand. Now, I do not imagine that this is the proper moment for discussing whether the municipal franchise of Belfast or of Ireland should be reduced. For myself, I do not think that this franchise is in a satisfactory condition; and it is a matter which may fairly claim to receive full discussion and consideration in this House. I hope the result may be satisfactory, not merely in reference to the municipal franchise in Belfast, but in the other municipal towns of Ireland. Every matter affecting the municipal

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    government of the towns of Ireland will be found exhaustively dealt with in the Report of a Committee over which I had the honour to preside some time ago. But if the course now proposed is taken, what may happen, as it seems to me, to the City of Belfast is this—Supposing that it is found impossible for the general reform of the municipal franchise to be effected even in this House during the present Session, is Belfast on that account to be deprived of those rights and powers which the Corporation think necessary for the proper government of the town, and even for the health of the inhabitants? That is the suggestion. The health of the people is surely of primary importance. It certainly would be most unfair if the postponement of this stage of a Private Bill, until a general measure can be passed, should have the effect of depriving Belfast of the advantages she would obtain under the provisions of this Private Bill. I do not object to an arrangement for the discussion of the larger measure, nor, I imagine, do the hon. Members for Belfast. But I do trust that hon. Members, in whatever part of the House they may sit, and however anxious they may be to deal with the Irish municipal franchise, will also remember that the powers of this Bill are of great importance, because they materially affect the health of a large population. If I am correctly informed, under a Standing Order of the House of Lords, the 25th of June is the last day for receiving Private Bills from this House; and as the adjournment of the debate has now been moved until the 26th, there is considerable danger of the present Bill being lost for this Session. I cannot, therefore, agree to the proposal for adjournment.
    MR. DWYER GRAY: The right hon. Baronet seems to be unaware that the general question has been discussed and settled, as far as the principle is concerned, by passing the second reading. What the opponents of the proposal of my hon. Friend are evidently anxious to secure is that this Bill shall pass through the House without any assurance that the general measure should be dealt with at all. We do not wish to stop this Bill; but what we want to do, in order to meet the objection of the right Gentleman the Chief Secretary—an ob-
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    jection, I think, very much to be regretted, and one which certainly very much astonished me—is to secure, by some means, either by means of the General Bill or otherwise, the extension in Belfast of the franchise so as to assimilate it with that of all the great English towns before Belfast is permitted to incur this enormous expense. It has been suggested on all sides that this is a matter of very great and extreme urgency; but that is really not the view of the authorities in Belfast, and that argument does not hold water for a moment, seeing that the Bill has reference to a subject that has been under discussion for 15 or 20 years, and therefore manifestly is not a matter which must be dealt with instantly. A main drainage scheme, no doubt, is very desirable; but the carrying out of it is not a matter that vitally affects the town of Belfast. In trying to fix on my hon. Friend the responsibility of delay in the event of the House of Lords throwing out the Bill, or the clause we seek to insist on, the Chief Secretary is putting the saddle on the wrong horse. It is completely within the power of the promoters of the Bill to secure the passage of the Bill if they will consent to this clause being inserted. The House of Lords is not at all likely to throw it out of their own Motion. It would be only when entreated to do so by the promoters of the Bill that they would dream of throwing it out if this House is determined to insert it. It is, therefore, unfair to endeavour to fix on us the responsibility of throwing it out. The responsibility must rest solely upon the promoters. But I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that he need not have the slightest fear on that account. If the promoters abandon the Bill, they must pay the costs out of their own pockets. They may bluster and threaten to withdraw the Bill; but it is absolutely certain they will do nothing of the kind, because the members of the Town Council of Belfast have as good an appreciation of their own pecuniary interests as any Gentlemen in or out of this House. The right hon. Baronet alluded to the Standing Order. He thinks that by hanging up the Bill until the 28th of June its passage may be endangered; but surely he is aware that, although the 25th of June is fixed as the last day on which the House of Lords will receive a Pri-

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    vate Bill from this House, it is perfectly easy to secure the suspension of the Standing Order. The extension of the franchise is a matter of great importance. I certainly have been under the impression that it was the Orange Members for Belfast who have been the Gentlemen to propose this extension of the municipal franchise; and yet I have observed with surprise that they have taken no part in this discussion.
    MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Gentleman is now travelling beyond the reasons to be urged for the adjournment of the debate.
    MR. DWYER GRAY: I will only say, in conclusion, that the sole reason which I have heard urged against the Amendment is the suggestion that the Standing Order of the House of Lords would interfere with the progress of the Bill. The Lords would, I believe, suspend their Standing Order. I would urge that there should be a postponement of this Bill for, say, four or five weeks, until we have an assurance that the Municipal Franchise Bill will be passed in the other House. In the meantime, we ought not to lose the opportunity of asserting the principle in the present Bill.
    MR. DE COBAIN: The hon. Member who has just sat down has taunted the Belfast Members with having maintained an attitude of silence during this debate. I had, however, risen three or four times when the Speaker called upon hon. Gentlemen sitting below the Gangway. As regards the principle of the clause introduced by the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton)——
    MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Gentleman is, perhaps, not aware that the Question now before the House is the Question of the Adjournment, and to that Question the hon. Member must confine himself.
    MR. DE COBAIN: I bow, Sir, to your ruling. As regards the Question of Adjournment, I am not a believer in the adjournment of either Imperial or local questions—questions which may more or less seriously affect the interests of the nation. I think this adjournment would present no new phase of the question; and, therefore, I think the Chief Secretary for Ireland has made a very fair proposition, and I entirely agree with it. I am thoroughly in
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    favour of the principle which he has presented of the extension of local influence in municipal matters; but I cannot understand the new phase of the question introduced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Gentleman must confine himself to the Question of Adjournment.
    MR. DE COBAIN: I only wish to point out that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has supported the views of hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway who have spoken in favour of the adjournment; and I thought that I might be permitted to say that I disagree with the right hon. Gentleman without being out of Order. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in that respect, is at variance, as I understand him, with the Chief Secretary, who preceded him in this discussion, and who I understood to be in favour of giving facilities for the progress of the Bill. I think that a question of this kind should not be postponed, and I hope the House will reject the Motion for Adjournment.
    SIR JAMES CORRY: I have only a few words to say on the Question of Adjournment, and they are these—If the House refuses now to come to a conclusion in the matter, and if we defer it too long, it will be difficult, if not impossible, for the Corporation to get the Bill through the obstacles which would be interposed to its progress in the other House. I may say that, if the House agrees to an adjournment for a fortnight or three weeks, we should not be opposed to that, if it is not now agreed to take the sense of the House upon it. The question is a very serious and important one for Belfast; and I hope that if this question of the municipal franchise is taken up it will be dealt with by the Government, and not by a Private Bill. Therefore, if the Government will agree to take the matter up, I have no objection, so far as I am concerned, to an adjournment of the Belfast Bill for three weeks in the meantime.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be adjourned till Monday, the twenty-eighth day of June next."—(Mr. Sexton.)
    Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "twenty-eighth," in order to

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    insert the word "twenty-first,"—(Sir James Corry,)—instead thereof.
    Question proposed, "That the word 'twenty-eighth' stand part of the Question."
    THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. JOHN MORLEY): I am prepared to accept the hon. Baronet's Amendment.
    MR. T. M. HEALY: I would like to ask the Government upon what day they will be able to take the broader Bill, as that must govern the view of the Irish Members as to date? We do not think the House of Lords would have an opportunity of considering this Bill for at least four weeks; and if they were asked to do so in a shorter period, their Lordships are very fond of complaining that they have not been allowed sufficient time to consider Bills of this sort. The General Bill now stands for Wednesday next; but it stands very low down on the Paper, and cannot be reached on that day. It is the last of 20 or 30 Orders. On Thursday we have the Home Rule Bill, and on Friday the ordinary Motions. Therefore, the first day on which it can be taken is Monday, so that there will have been one week gone. I would, therefore, ask what facilities will be given to press forward the other Bill at once?
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT): I think it can be taken on Friday. I would suggest to hon. Members that they should accept the suggestion made by those who represent Belfast. If it comes on, and there is nothing to delay its further progress, it can pass; if anything does happen to prevent the Bill being gone on with, they can propose a further adjournment. We will do all we can to further the Bill here, and send it up to "another place," and if it is accepted before the 21st this Bill can be dealt with. If a further adjournment is required, the matter can be duly considered. I think it would be of great advantage, not only to this Bill, but to the General Bill, that as far as possible we should come to an agreement.
    MR. SEXTON: Allow me to say, Sir, that I accept the suggestion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer; but if the other Bill be not passed, I will reserve to myself the right of making a
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    further proposal until the Lords have declared how they intend to deal with the question. The distinct understanding is, that this Bill is to wait until the Municipal Franchise Bill has passed in the House of Lords.
    MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. Member withdraw the 28th?
    MR. SEXTON: Yes.
    Question put, and negatived.
    Question, "That the word 'twenty-first' be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
    Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.
    Debate adjourned till Monday 21st June.

QUESTIONS.

  CONTAGIOUS DISEASES OF CATTLE— M. PASTEUR'S DISCOVERIES.
  SIR RICHARD PAGETasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, Whether the attention of the Agricultural Department of the Privy Council has been directed to the discoveries of M. Pasteur, with regard to the possibility of protecting cattle, sheep, and pigs from certain contagious diseases by inoculation with attenuated virus; whether, in view of the National importance of this question, the Department are prepared to undertake a series of careful experiments to determine the value of the discoveries referred to; and, whether, with the object of at once dealing with one prevalent form of contagious disease, they will be good enough to commence, without delay, the requisite experiments in relation to swine fever?
  THE CHANCELLOR (Sir UGHTRED KAY-SHUTTLEWORTH): The attention of the Agricultural Department has been called to M. Pasteur's investigations regarding the contagious diseases of cattle; and, by way of a first step in the direction suggested by the hon. Baronet, instructions have been given to Professor Brown to undertake a series of experiments with the virus of swine fever.

  POST OFFICE (IRELAND)—PAT OF LETTER CARRIERS.
  MR. GILHOOLYasked the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether

  489
  it is a fact that Daniel Hartigan, a rural postman, who delivers letters and parcels at Dunns and Dunbacon, has a salary of only six shillings per week; whether he has to walk eight miles each day, including Sunday; and if his case will be inquired into with a view to grant him fair remuneration for the performance of his duties?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. HENRY H. FOWLER): Inquiry is being made respecting this case, and as soon as the Report is received the result will be communicated to the hon. Member.

  SALMON FISHERIES (IRELAND)—THE RIVER SHANNON.
  MR. JORDANasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If the Inspectors of Fisheries called a meeting by public notice to be held at Kilrush, county Clare, on November 27th 1885, to inquire into complaints against fixed nets in the River Shannon, for infraction of the Law; if two of the Inspectors, Messrs. Hayes and Hornsby, attended that meeting; if Mr. John Burns, of Labasheeda, in pursuance of a notice and letter from the Secretary to the Inspectors, travelled a distance of over ten miles to attend that meeting; if, notwithstanding the letter stating that the Inspectors would be glad to hear Mr. Burns' evidence, the question was not satisfactorily gone into, and Mr. Burns only partially heard; if Mr. Burns wrote to ask what decision had been arrived at by the Inspectors, and no reply has been sent to his communication; and, if steps would now be taken to cause the said Inspectors to make a report on the proceedings, and also to state what decision has been given on the subjects complained of?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. JOHN MORLEY): On the date in question two Inspectors of Fisheries held an inquiry at Kilrush into four different subjects, in one of which Mr. Burns was interested. When the case came on it was found that the complainants, who were fishermen, had no professional assistance, and no one to conduct their case, whereas there were three professional representatives on the other side. The Inspectors, nevertheless, gave the fishermen every assistance, and the inquiry was opened. It
  490
  was soon, however, manifest that neither the ends of justice nor the interests of the fishermen themselves could be served by allowing the inquiry to go on, and the Inspectors accordingly adjourned it, at the same time intimating their willingness to resume it when the complainants were in a better state of preparation to put their case before the Court. Mr. Burns was in Court at the time, and the decision was made known to him as well as the other complainants. The receipt of the letter referred to in the latter part of the Question was acknowledged, and it will be, as he was told, laid before the Board. Owing to local engagements, however, in the country this has not yet been done; but it will be shortly.

  CUSTOMS DEPARTMENT—REDUNDANT CLERKS.
  MR. M'CULLOCH(for Mr. MACDONALD CAMERON)asked the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether, in a Treasury Order dated 12th March 1880, granting "certain measures of relief to the redundant clerks" of the Customs, the measures of relief were subject to four specified conditions; whether one of the conditions was that, when any redundant clerks were in receipt of more than £300 per annum, every fourth vacancy on the Upper Division should not be filled up; whether the gradual reduction of the Upper Division clerkships then contemplated has been upset by the reorganizations effected since the date of the Treasury Order, so that many more Upper Division Clerkships have been dropped than those provided for in the Treasury stipulations, whereby the prospects of the redundant clerks have been seriously injured; and, whether, by way of compensation, the maximum salary of the redundant clerks could not be raised to that of Upper Division clerks, without entailing extra cost upon the Exchequer for several years to come, if it would do so at all?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. HENRY H. FOWLER): The Treasury Order of March 12, 1880, granting certain measures of relief was subject to four conditions. One of these conditions was that every fourth vacancy in the Upper Division should not be filled up so long as any redundant clerk was in receipt

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  of more than £300 a-year. The gradual reduction of the Upper Division clerkships then contemplated has been upset by the re-organizations effected since the date of the Treasury Order; but this gradual reduction of the Upper Division clerkships has been accompanied by a gradual reduction in the number of the redundant clerks who had the prospect of promotion to them, so that the proportions of the two classes are as nearly as possible the same as they were in 1880. The prospects of the redundant clerks are thus, apparently, the same as in 1880; but, practically, they are not as favourable, because the proportion in the redundant class should be smaller, owing to the promotions made since 1880, and because, in the reductions made in the Upper Division, the older men have been selected for retirement. The result is that the ages of the men in the two classes are now practically much the same, and the prospect of promotion is not good. There are 53 redundant clerks to be considered. If the Treasury agree to raise their maximum salary from £340 to £400, the present maximum salary of the Upper Division, the increased cost to the public would not commence till February, 1889; but no estimate could well be given of the cost, as it would depend upon the question whether men were promoted before they attained the existing maximum of £340, which at present none have reached.

  WAR DEPARTMENT—THE STEAMERS ON THE NILE.
  MR. W. H. SMITHasked the Secretary of State for War, If the light draught steamers which were sent out to Egypt by the War Department for service on the Nile have been withdrawn in safety below Wady Halfa; and, whether it is proposed to hand over any of them to the Egyptian Government?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN)&c.): The three Thornycroft stern-wheel steamers, which I presume are those to which my right hon. Friend refers, have never been south of the First Cataract. They are at present at, or north of, Assouan. These boats are officered, manned, and properly cared for. I am not aware of any intention of handing them over to the Egyptian Government.

  REPUBLIC OF HAYTI—IMPRISONMENT OF A BRITISH SUBJECT.
  SIR HENRY HOLLANDasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether the attention of the Secretary of State has been drawn to the case of a Mr. Coles, a British subject, who was, as he alleges, unlawfully tried and sentenced to imprisonment at Port au Prince; and, whether any steps have been or will be taken to investigate the facts of the case, and, if his statement be correct, to obtain redress for Mr. Coles?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. BRYCE): Her Majesty's Government are fully acquainted with the details of the trial, which led to a sentence of three years' imprisonment being passed on Mr. Coles by the Haytian Court of Assize. In their opinion, that trial was a gross miscarriage of justice. Her Majesty's Government have made vigorous representations to the Haytian Government on this subject, but so far without effect. Her Majesty's Government are consequently sending, as Commissioner to Port au Prince, Mr. Clement Hill, of the Foreign Office, who will be instructed to call the serious attention of the Haytian Government to this case, as well as to the complaints received from other British subjects resident in Hayti, of acts of oppression and denial of justice to which they had been subjected by the Haytian Authorities.

  THE CURRENCY—CIRCULATION OF FOREIGN COPPER COIN.
  MR. MONTAGUasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether he is aware that Foreign copper coins circulate in increased quantities, reaching in the East of London to one-fifth of the copper coins current; and, whether the Government intend to take steps to prevent loss from falling upon the working classes?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT), in reply, said, that, while not accepting the statement of the hon. Member as to the amount of the coins in question in circulation, it was the intention of the Government to introduce legislation on this subject in the Revenue Bill.

  PUBLIC PETITIONS—PETITIONS AGAINST HOME RULE.
  MR. BIGGARasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If his attention has been drawn to the fact that the officials of the Cork Spinning and Weaving Company, and of the Ulster Spinning and Weaving Company, have been urging their employés to sign Petitions against Home Rule; and, whether there is any means by which such conduct can be punished? The hon. Member said, he wished to point out that there had been a typographical error in the printing of the Question. "Cork Spinning Company" should be "York Street Spinning Company."
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. JOHN MORLEY): I thought it was. We have found, so far as we could learn in regard to the Ulster Spinning Company, that it is said that the movement originated amongst the workers themselves. I cannot speak as to the other Company, because I was not quite sure what it meant; but I may say that these are matters in which the Government cannot well interfere.

  ARMY CONTRACTS—REGIMENTAL SUPPLIES.
  MR. HOOPERasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether he is aware that the contract for supplying the canteen of the 11th Hussars at Ballincollig Barracks was by order of the Colonel transferred from a local contractor to one of the Army Supply Associations, against the expressed wish of the sergeants of the regiment; whether he is aware that Colonel Kelly-Kenny, of the 1st Battalion Queen's Royal West Surrey Regiment, while stationed at Cork Barracks, took means to ascertain the feeling of the sergeants of his regiment as to dealing locally or otherwise for the regimental supplies, and that they unanimously decided in favour of local dealing; and, whether, under all the circumstances, he will consider whether it is desirable that measures should be taken for ensuring that these contracts for regiments should only be conferred under an open system of competition by tender?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN)&c.): Sir, I am informed that, in consequence
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  of some irregularity in the payment to the sergeants' mess of the 11th Hussars, the officer commanding directed that through a committee payments would have to be made weekly. This had the effect of diverting the custom from the local contractor. In the 1st Battalion Surrey Regiment, the sergeants, on being asked, expressed an opinion in favour of local dealing. I agree with the hon. Member that the best method for obtaining supplies is by open competition; but the regulation for a committee of sergeants' messing and of leaving a large discretion to their committees of management works very well, and gives satisfaction to the Army, and I do not think it is desirable that the management should be interfered with by any directions on the subject.

  POOR LAW (IRELAND)—THE CLARE-MORRIS UNION—DESTITUTION.
  MR. JAMES O'BRIENasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether it is the fact that the medical officer of the Claremorris Union has, after an inspection of the poorer parts of his district, reported to the Board of Guardians that—
  "Destitution prevails to a large extent. Many of these poor people are suffering severely from the want of, and inability to procure, the necessary amount of food to sustain them in health. I therefore apprehend that, unless assistance can be had for them, fever and other low and debilitating diseases will be the result;"
  and, seeing that, in a resolution of the Board of Guardians of that Union, it is stated that—
  "Relief from the rates would be entirely inadequate, and would impoverish the ratepayers,"
  what is to be done to meet this state of distress?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. JOHN MORLEY): Mr. Speaker, the Report of the medical officer has been before the Local Government Board. They have written to the Guardians calling attention to the provisions of the recent Relief Act, and expressing their willingness, if so desired, to order an extension of the scope of outdoor relief. But there is no means by which the Guardians could be afforded extraneous assistance. They must provide out of their own resources support for the poor of their own Union.

  CONTAGIOUS DISEASES (ANIMALS) ACTS—ABORTION AMONG CATTLE.
  MR. AINSLIEasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, If he is aware that abortion in cattle is contagious, and is rapidly on the increase, and annually responsible for the premature death of thousands of calves; and, if he will consider the advisableness of scheduling abortion in cattle under the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act?
  THE CHANCELLOR (Sir UGHTRED KAY-SHUTTLEWORTH): Abortion among cattle is, doubtless, a cause of heavy losses; but there is no evidence that it is rapidly on the increase. The recurrence of such cases is due to a variety of causes, including insufficient precautions in cleansing places where it has occurred. But abortion is not a contagious disease, and does not call for the intervention of an Inspector, or the slaughter of cattle, and cannot, therefore, be included among the diseases to which the Act applies.

  ARMY DISCIPLINE ACT—REDRESS OF WRONG—APPEALS.
  MR. R. POWERasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether, when officers applied to the Duke of Cambridge, under the "Redress of Wrong, Army Discipline Act," he will make it compulsory on Generals commanding districts to forward the letters within eight days to the War Office; whether it is true that a case has lately occurred in the northern district of an officer of rank and service in the battlefield appealing to the Duke of Cambridge under the "Army Discipline Act;" and, whether his letters were not only delayed for several weeks, but strong measures applied to induce him to withdraw them and to leave the Army?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN)&c.): In answer to the hon. Member, I have to say that General Officers are bound to forward appeals without delay; but there are many advantages in allowing them some discretion as to time. With regard to the particular case referred to, I cannot answer the Question without knowing the name of the officer con-
  496
  cerned. If I am furnished with that information I will cause inquiry to be made.

  WAR DEPARTMENT—THE 43-TON GUNS.
  SIR HENRY TYLERasked the Secretary of State for War, What steps have been taken to prevent risk from the firing of guns of similar construction to the 43-ton gun which recently failed, pending inquiry into the cause of failure, and the best means of strengthening such guns; also to state the names of any members of the Committee appointed to inquire into the recent failure of the 43-ton gun who have not been directly or indirectly concerned in the design, construction, consideration, or approval of guns of this description; and how many guns have been constructed, and how many guns have been issued and are in service, of similar construction to the 43-ton gun which recently failed, and at what cost per gun?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN)&c.): The guns will not be fired again, under ordinary circumstances, until strengthened by being chase-hooped, an operation which can be easily and rapidly effected. Fourteen guns of this class have been constructed. Three have been appropriated to the land service, and 11 to the Navy. The cost per gun is about £6,000. The Members of the Committee who have not been directly concerned in any previous consideration of questions affecting this gun are the President, Lieutenant General Sir Michael Biddulph, the Vice President, Admiral Ward, Captain Hammill, R.N., General Fraser, Colonel Baylay, Colonel Davies, Major Colquhoun, and Mr. Gledhill.

  WESTMINSTER ABBEY— RESTORATION.
  MR. W. H. SMITHasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, If Her Majesty's Government are now prepared to take steps to provide in some way the necessary funds for the maintenance of the fabric of Westminster Abbey, for which the existing provision has been found to be wholly inadequate?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT)
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  (who replied) said, that his right hon. Friend had requested him to say that he hoped to introduce within a few days the Dean and Chapter Bill of last Session, with certain Amendments, which would arrest the hostility which the Bill had encountered last Session. This Bill would provide for the case of Westminster Abbey.

  SALE OF CROWN LANDS (IRELAND)— THE FORT OF CULMORE.
  MR. T. M. HEALYasked the Secretary to the Treasury, Does any record exist as to the terms and conditions on which the Fort and lands of Culmore, county Derry, were sold by Government to the Irish Society of London about twenty-five years ago?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. HENRY H. FOWLER): The fort of Culmore and the lands held with it were granted by the Crown to the Irish Society in fee in the Reign of Charles II., the Crown retaining the right to appoint a Governor of the fort, who was not only to enjoy the rents of the lands annexed to it, but also to receive an annuity of £200, Irish currency, from the Society. The legal interest in both the fort and the lands was, however, vested absolutely in the Society. The fort itself not being necessary for defensive purposes, and the Governorship being a sinecure, Her Majesty's Government determined, on the death of the last Governor of the fort, Field Marshal the Earl of Strafford, in 1859, to come to an arrangement with the Society, and it was finally agreed in 1861 that the Society should pay to the Treasury the sum of £12,000, in return for which the Crown gave up in favour of the Society all claims in respect of the lands and fort, and surrendered its right of appointing a Governor of the fort. In consequence of the arrangement, the lands became the entire property of the Society, and the liability of the Society to pay the annuity of £200 was extinguished.
  MR. T. M. HEALYasked whether any provision had been taken in the arrangement that there should be no increases of rents on the tenants' improvements?
  MR. HENRY H. FOWLER: I can hardly answer a Question without No-
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  tice which relates to what took place in 1859.

  PRISONS (IRELAND)—IMPRISONMENT OF MAURICE MOLONY AND OTHERS.
  MR. LALORasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, with regard to the case of Maurice Molony, Michael Galvin, Cornelius M'Auliffe, and James Quinlan, who were tried and convicted before Mr. Justice Fitzgerald, at the Cork Winter Assizes of 1881, and sentenced to penal servitude for five years, If it be true that there is a prison regulation by which 12¾ months are allowed to a prisoner sentenced to a term of five years, provided he does not violate the prison rules; whether Maurice Molony or Michael Galvin ever broke the prison rules; were Maurice Molony and Michael Galvin entitled to their discharge on or about the 6th of November last, and are they still in prison; does a prisoner for every breach of the prison rules receive some days' punishment, and are those days deducted from the 12¾ months which he would otherwise have a claim to as a reduction of his term of imprisonment; were Cornelius M'Auliffe and James Quinlan, who suffered a loss of one month from their claim to a reduction of 12¾ months in consequence of having broken the prison rules, entitled to their discharge on or about the 6th day of December last, and are they still in prison; and will the Chief Secretary order the release of the said Maurice Molony, Michael Galvin, Cornelius M'Auliffe, and James Quinlan from prison?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. JOHN MORLEY): Sir, the facts are substantially, I believe, as stated in the hon. Member's Question. The release of convicts on licence before the expiration of their sentence is frequently delayed by the Crown in the exercise of statutory authority for special reasons. In these cases the release has been delayed in consequence of the disturbed state of the part of the country from which the prisoners came. The time has now, I think, arrived when the case of these men may be submitted to the Lord Lieutenant with a view to their release on licence, and I will give instructions accordingly.

  NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND)— SCIENCE AND ART DEPARTMENT— THE MAY EXAMINATIONS—ELIGIBILITY OF PUPILS IN NATIONAL SCHOOLS TO EARN PAYMENTS.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIENasked the Vice President of the Committee of Council, What has been the result of his communication with the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland with regard to the eligibility of pupils enrolled in the sixth class in Irish National Schools to earn payments under the Science and Art Department at the May examinations?
  THE VICE PRESIDENT (Sir LYON PLAYFAIR): Sir, in answer to the hon. Member I have to say that, owing to a misapprehension, the letter to the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland was only sent about 10 days ago, and we have not yet received an answer. The teachers in Ireland will not suffer, however, on account of this delay, as no change in the rules can be made until the new Directory or Code of the Science and Art Department has been issued, which will be in about six weeks. Before then, the matter will be fully inquired into.

  LAW AND POLICE (IRELAND)—RIOTING AT DOWNPATRICK.
  MR. SHIRLEYasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether it is true (as stated in The Sheffield and Rotherham Independent of May 28th) that at Downpatrick, on May 27th, four lads were charged under an Act of Edward III. with disorderly conduct, by shouting and cheering for Home Rule after ten o'clock at night, and were each sentenced to three months' imprisonment; and, if true, whether he will state to the House what this Act of Edward III. is; and, whether it is really intended that these boys should be kept in prison for three months?
  MR. SMALL: Before the right hon. Gentleman answers the Question, might I ask if it is not also a fact that the magistrates only allowed one hour to obtain bail, and thereby increased the difficulty of finding bail?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. JOHN MORLEY): I cannot answer as to details. The hon. Gentleman has just brought before the House
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  a question of bail which I cannot answer. There are three Questions on this subject on the Paper to-day, which, with the permission of the House, I will answer together. The four young men referred to were not exactly boys, all but one being over age, and that one over 20. They were brought before the Downpatrick Bench for disorderly conduct at night in the public streets, cursing, and using violent Party expressions. Three local magistrates presided. The defendants were ordered to give moderate security for their future good behaviour, or, in default, to be imprisoned; and, as a matter of fact, were all released on bail the next day. As the Towns Improvement Act—under which proceedings of this nature are an offence—is not in force in Downpatrick, the prosecution was under 34 Edward III., c. 1, and the Justices' Commission. The Statute of Edward enables magistrates to take security of persons for their good behaviour, when their conduct is likely to lead to a breach of the peace, and I understand that prosecutions under it are by no means uncommon.
  MR. T. M. HEALYasked who were the magistrates, and also how many Catholics were on the Downpatrick Bench? He would also ask whether the Statute of Edward III. only applied to marauders and murderers?
  MR. JOHN MORLEYsaid, he was obliged to point out that he had answered the paragraph in question. He was unable to say how many Catholics were on the Downpatrick Bench.

  THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND)—THE CORONERSHIP OF NORTH ANTRIM.
  MR. T. M. HEALYasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Is it the fact that, although in accordance with his suggestion, a memorial of five Justices has been sent to the Viceroy to appoint additional polling places for the Coroner's election in North Antrim, the High Sheriff has fixed the nomination for Monday (to-day) and the polling for Wednesday; and, will the Government take any steps to secure proper facilities to the voters in the district for recording their votes?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. JOHN MORLEY): I re-

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  ceived, on the 28th of this month, a copy of the original memorial sent to the Lord Lieutenant in regard to this matter. I find, upon inquiry, that it was received in Dublin yesterday. The writ having been issued, and the dates of nomination and the polling having been fixed, there is, I am advised, no power to deal with the matter before the coming Election. I should explain that these fixtures ware made before the Question of the hon. and learned Member, some days ago, was put.
  In reply to a further Question,
  MR. JOHN MORLEYsaid, he had every reason to believe that the arrangements had been made in perfect good faith.

  DEVONPORT DOCKYARD—THE QUEEN'S BIRTHDAY.
  CAPTAIN PRICEasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether it is the usual custom to close the gun wharves at Devonport on Friday afternoon, when Her Majesty's Birthday is kept on a Saturday; and, why the usual course has not been followed this year?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN)&c.): I find that it was through inadvertence that the half-holiday was not granted on Friday. The men will be allowed the time on another day.

  POST OFFICE—POSTAGE TO AUSTRALIA.
  MR. HENNIKER HEATONasked the Secretary to the Treasury, Is the Postmaster General aware that the Government of Germany has made arrangements to send letters from Germany to Australia for 2½d. each; and, will the Postmaster General at once take measures to reduce the cost of postage on letters from England to Australia from 6d. to 2½d. per letter to protect the revenue and encourage trade?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. HENRY H. FOWLER): The Postmaster General is not aware of any such arrangements. Moreover, there is every reason to believe that the Australian Colonies, which, on fiscal grounds, have always declined to join the Postal Union, would object to any reduction of the present postage rates.

  STATE OF IRELAND—MOCK FUNERAL AT WOODFORD, CO. GALWAY.
  CAPTAIN M'CALMONTasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether a mock funeral was recently held in Woodford, county Galway, at which a large number of persons were present, who marched up and down the town with a band playing, preceded by a coffin bearing the inscription "Death to Orangemen and Freemasons;" whether the coffin was set fire to and burnt, amidst great public exultation and delight, within a few yards of where Finlay was brutally murdered last March; whether the police were confined to barracks during these proceeding's; whether in Lurgan, a short time since, a number of Orangemen were accompanying the funeral of a member of the Orange Institution, and were ordered by the police to take off their colours when going through the town; and, whether he can give any reason for the apparently different course pursued by the police on these occasions?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. JOHN MORLEY): The reasons for the apparently different courses pursued by the police on these two occasions is, that in the case of Lurgan there was sworn information that a serious collision would take place if the procession attempted to pass through the Catholic portion of the town wearing Party colours. In the case of the Woodford procession no such collision was to be feared.
  MR. JOHNSTONsaid, he would remind the right hon. Gentleman that he had not answered the first and second paragraphs of the Question.
  MR. JOHN MORLEYsaid, he believed that those paragraphs gave a fairly correct description of what occurred.

  ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIONERS— EVICTIONS NEAR BREAM'S BUILDINGS, CHANCERY LANE.
  MR. INCEasked the honourable Member for Launceston, as an Ecclesiastical Commissioner, Whether the order for the eviction of 1,000 poor people, in 1874, from land near Bream's Buildings, Chancery Lane, by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, was actually given by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners themselves, or by the Church

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  Estates Commission, and, if by the latter, whether the Ecclesiastical Commissioners had not the power to make rules to restrain wholesale evictions; what were the names of the Commissioners who were present at the meeting when the above order for eviction was given, or who were otherwise responsible for it; whether the Ecclesiastical Commissioners would undertake that, before any order for the giving of notice to quit, or for evicting more than fifteen persons of the labouring classes in any one locality was made by them, precautions should be taken that notice of such intended order, specifying number of persons to be evicted, locality in which they lived, and reasons for eviction, should be given to each member of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and the like notice should be laid for one month upon the Tables of both Houses of Parliament; whether the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, after having evicted the 1,000 poor people, were now sanctioning the destruction of their church, viz. St. Thomas in the Liberty of the Rolls, on the alleged ground that there was now no population; whether it is a fact that, at present, there is a large day population in the parish or district belonging to the church, comprising large numbers of young men, among whom a clergyman might usefully work, and that this will be greatly increased when the Ecclesiastical Commissioners let the land which has now stood vacant for many years; and, whether the Ecclesiastical Commissioners will give a Return of the sums which they deduct for "commission" on money which passes through their hands and the rates of commission which they charge, and to whom eventually such sums are paid, and also the amount charged during the past year to donors of land by them or their solicitor for the legal expenses, exclusive of stamps?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. C. T. D. ACLAND): In reply to the first paragraph of the Question of my hon. Friend, I have to state that the order for clearing the ground alluded to was given by the Estates Committee. The removal of the inhabitants took place gradually. There was no wholesale eviction. Any regulations made by the General Board have by law to be laid on the Table of the House; but
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  none have hitherto been required. I am not prepared to give the names asked for in the second paragraph; nor am I prepared to make any such undertaking on behalf of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners as is asked for in the 3rd paragraph. The contemplated removal of the church named in the Question was initiated by the late Bishop of the diocese, and is entirely approved by his successor, who is fully aware of the circumstances of the case after careful inquiry. The Commissioners do not agree in the opinion conveyed in the 5th paragraph; but the resident population is not likely to increase. With regard to the 6th paragraph, the Commissioners are at a loss to understand to what the first part of it refers; but if it relates to receivership, the figures appear in the Appendix to the Commissioners' annual Parliamentary Report. The amount charged for the legal expenses mentioned was, I believe, £309 7s. 7d.

  NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND)— DISMISSAL OF THE SCHOOLMISTRESS OF BALLYCAREW, CO. WEXFORD.
  MR. JOHN REDMONDasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether his attention has been called to the recent dismissal from the office of National Schoolmistress at Ballycarew, county Wexford, of Miss Hanlon, by the Rector of the parish, the Rev. Mr. Gerrard; whether the reason for this dismissal was alleged to be the fact that Miss Hanlon had attended a special service at the local Methodist Church; and, whether she had in any way contravened the Rules of the National Education Board; and, if not, whether steps will be taken to reinstate her in her position?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Mr. JOHN MORLEY): Mr. Speaker, the Commissioners of National Education have heard nothing of this matter, beyond receiving an intimation from the teacher of the school that the teacher's resignation will take place about the end of next month. An Inspector visited the school a few days ago, and in his Report he makes no reference to any exceptional circumstances. We may therefore presume that, if any injustice was contemplated, some sort of representation would have been made by the teacher herself to the Department.

  MERCHANDIZE MARKS ACT, 1862.
  MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTasked, What were the intentions of the Government as to their promised legislation on this subject?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. C. T. D. ACLAND): My right hon. Friend the President answered this same Question on May 6, to the hon. Member for the Central Division of Sheffield (Mr. Howard Vincent). He then stated:—
  "We had prepared a measure before Easter for the amendment of the Merchandize Marks Act, 1862; but, after conferring with our Representatives at the International Conference at Rome, including the Master Cutler, it was deemed advisable not to introduce a measure until after the Conference had completed its labours."—(3 Hansard, [305] 365.)
  I may now add that the Delegates to the Industrial Property Convention have returned from Rome, and their official Report is in course of preparation. The Amendments to the Bill rendered necessary to carry out the Resolutions of the Convention are in the hands of the draftsman, and the Bill will be introduced when they are finally settled.

  THE GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND AND THE LAND PURCHASE BILLS.
  MR. HENEAGEasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether, in view of his declaration that the two questions of Land and Irish Government were closely and inseparably connected, and has since stated that
  "The position of the Government is simply this.… to establish by a vote on the Second Reading the principle of the Government of Ireland Bill,"
  he can now inform the House whether the Government still regard the Land Bill as an essential portion of their policy, and the two Bills as still inseparable the one to the other; and, whether it is the intention of the Government to establish by a vote on the Second Reading the principle of the Land Purchase Bill?
  THE FIRST LORD (Mr. W. E. GLADSTONE): With regard to the first portion of his Question, I am not able to give any answer to my right hon. Friend beyond what I gave to an hon. Gentleman opposite three or four days ago—that is to say,
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  I have no new declaration to make on the subject of the relation existing between the Government of Ireland Bill and the Land Purchase Bill. With respect to the second portion of the Question, I can give an answer to my right hon. Friend. I do not think that the Government could ask the House to pass any judgment upon the Land Purchase Bill, excepting at a time when what I may call the principal Bill is on the Orders of the Day with a view to its prompt or immediate prosecution through its stages. That being so, it is not our intention to ask for any vote upon the Land Purchase Bill after the determination of the House has been given upon the second reading of the Government of Ireland Bill. I may say that I think when the first Question was put to me as to the Government of Ireland what I announced was that we did not intend to take any proceedings upon the Bill or on the subject after the second reading.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
  GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND BILL.— [BILL 181.]
  (Mr. Gladstone, Mr. Secretary Childers, Mr. John Morley, Mr. Attorney General.)

  SECOND READING. [ADJOURNED DEBATE.]
  [EIGHTH NIGHT.]
  Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed to Question [10th May], "That the Bill be now read a second time."
  And which Amendment was, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."—(The Marquess of Hartington.)
  Question again proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
  SIR HENRY TYLERsaid, that before the debate was resumed he wished to ask a question on a point of Order—one of the most important that was ever brought before the Speaker to decide. That question referred to the proceedings which took place in the House on Friday night last. It would be remembered that there was a very interesting discussion on that evening between the noble Marquess

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  the Member for Rossendale (the Marquess of Hartington) on the one hand, and the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the other; and, as the result of that discussion, it appeared that the Government had determined not to proceed—and, indeed, the Prime Minister had told them again that evening that they would not proceed—any further this Session with the Government of Ireland Bill, after the division on the second reading had been disposed of, and that at the end of the Session Parliament would be prorogued. Inasmuch, then, as the Bill, as the noble Marquess had said, was practically dead, and as the Bill was now admitted by the Government to be in that condition, he wished to ask whether it was in accordance with the principles and practice of the Procedure by which that House was governed that a Bill, under such circumstances, should be debated night after night? ["Order!"] He submitted that that was a very grave and important question. He knew that there were numerous precedents for a Bill being abandoned after the second reading; but he ventured to suggest that there never had been any previous case in which a Bill, declared by the Government to be abandoned, and admitted to be practically dead, had been gone on with and discussed after that fashion. He asked whether it would not be a most unjustifiable and outrageous waste of time to go on discussing night after night this Bill, which was admittedly dead? [Cries of "Order!"]
  MR. SPEAKER: I must call the hon. Member to Order. He must confine his observations to the point of Order which he was raising, and must not make any comments. What is the question of Order which the hon. Member wishes to raise?
  SIR HENRY TYLERsaid, that the question which he wished to put was simply this—whether it was in accordance with the principles and practice of the Procedure in that House that it should proceed from night to night to discuss the Home Rule Bill after Her Majesty's Government had intimated that they would not proceed with it that Session, and after the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that Parliament would be prorogued at the end of the present Session, and after the House had, there-
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  fore, been informed officially that the Bill would be thus abandoned?
  MR. SPEAKER: In reply to the Question of the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth, I have to say that nothing has come to my knowledge as to any statement of any Minister, or as to any understanding which alters my view in reference to the point of Order with regard to this Bill. The Bill stands for second reading to-night according to the Orders of the House, and no facts have come to my knowledge officially to show that the Bill is about to be withdrawn from the Orders of the Day; and I do not, therefore, see any reason to interfere, nor have I anything to do with what may be the ulterior stages of the Bill.
  Debate resumed.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. HENRY H. FOWLER)said, that the hon. and learned Member for the Isle of Wight (Sir Richard Webster), in the able speech with which he closed the debate on Friday night last, had made some strong criticisms upon the doctrine which the Prime Minister had laid down with regard to the responsibility of that House at the different stages of this Bill. He (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) did not propose to enter into a conflict between two such high authorities as the Prime Minister and an ex-Attorney General, especially in the absence of the latter; but if the hon. and learned Gentleman had been present he should have wished to have quoted to him a precedent upon the point at issue which would be binding upon the Prime Minister, inasmuch as he himself had been a party to making the precedent, and which was binding upon hon. Members opposite as an example set by their late Leader—Mr. Disraeli—in moving the second reading of his Reform Bill in 1867. On that occasion certain Resolutions were proposed and were withdrawn, a Bill was introduced and was withdrawn, and, finally, a second Bill was introduced. The introduction of the latter Bill—for history was prone to repeat itself—cost the Government of that day three Cabinet Ministers of the first importance, and when its second reading was moved all its details were strongly attacked. On that occasion the present Prime Minister said that—

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  "If the Question to be put from the Chair were that the Bill should be read a third time, instead of a second time, he did not hesitate to say that the measure would be rejected by a very large majority;"
  and he then referred to nine or ten vital points of the Bill which must be altered before it could be allowed to pass. In the controversy which arose on this Bill the senior Member for Birmingham (Mr. John Bright) said that, from the Preamble to the last word of the Bill, there was not one single provision which a real intelligent Reformer could consent to. The present Marquess of Salisbury, who was then Viscount Cranborne, and who then occupied, towards the Government and the measure, the same relative position which the noble Marquess the Member for Rossendale (the Marquess of Hartington) now occupied with reference to the present Government and the present Bill, pressed the Government to say what course they intended to take on those disputed vital points, and urged that those who asked them to support the second reading of the Bill were "asking them to take a leap in the dark." Mr. Disraeli, however, who was a great master of political strategy, almost in the very words which the Prime Minister himself used on Friday night, firmly declined to be taught tactics by his political opponents. Mr. Disraeli was unmoved and immovable, and he said that—
  "He had heard much of changes of Parties and of combinations, but that all he could say on behalf of himself and his Colleagues was that they had no other wish than to bring the question before them to a settlement."
  In the end, the second reading of the Bill was carried. It was completely eviscerated in Committee; so that, when the Bill passed its third reading, scarcely one of its important provisions remained unchanged; and, in point of fact, it was a totally different measure, only preserving its main principle intact, of amending the law with regard to the representation of the people. There was, therefore, sufficient precedent for the House reading a measure a second time with the full knowledge that many of its details would be altered in Committee. The hon. and learned Member for the Isle of Wight had further said that this measure would impair the supremacy of the Imperial Parliament; but he (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) denied that there
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  was any foundation for the hon. and learned Member's assertion. In fact, had he believed that there was any ground for that assertion, he should have ranked himself among the opponents of the Bill. The position of Her Majesty's Government upon that point was that there was, and could be, but one Sovereign Parliament in the British Empire, and that Imperial Parliament could not denude itself of one jot or tittle of its own legislative supremacy. It could do almost everything, but one thing it could not do. It was impossible for that Parliament to pass any Act that should bind its successors, or prohibit them from repealing it if they thought fit to do so. Thus, in the case of the Act of Union between England and Scotland, one of the fundamental provisions was that the Professors of the Scotch Universities should subscribe to the Confession of Faith, and yet that provision had been swept away by subsequent legislation. Again, by the 5th Article of the Act of Union between England and Ireland, it was attempted to establish eternally the Irish Church, and yet that Establishment had been abolished by the Imperial Parliament. The hon. and learned Gentleman had further said that if, in the future, any dispute were to arise between the Imperial and the Irish Parliaments, the Irish Judges would be bound to obey the latter. Reasoning from the cases of our Colonial Legislatures, he (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) asserted that the Irish Judges would be bound to obey the Acts of the Imperial Parliament, whenever they came into conflict with those of the Irish Parliament. Professor Dicey had dealt with this case, taking as an illustration a supposed conflict between the Imperial Parliament and the Parliament of Victoria. Professor Dicey, at page 100 of his work on The Law of the Constitution, says—
  "If a Victorian law really contradicts the provisions of an Act of Parliament extending to Victoria, no Court throughout the British Dominions could legally, it is clear, give effect to the Victorian enactment. This is an inevitable result of the Legislative Sovereignty exercised by the Imperial Parliament. In the supposed case the Victorian Parliament commands the Judges to act in a particular manner, and the Imperial Parliament commands them to act in another manner. Of these two commands the order of the Imperial Parliament is the one that must be obeyed. This is the very meaning of Parliamentary Sovereignty."

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  The hon. and learned Gentleman also took the objection that under the provisions of the Bill the Imperial Parliament would be restricted in its action by the decisions of the Privy Council. To that objection he replied that the duty of the Privy Council was to interpret Acts of Parliament, and not to legislate. With regard to the veto of the Crown, it was quite clear that under the Bill the Lord Lieutenant would act upon the advice of the Irish Executive, subject, of course, to an appeal to the Privy Council. But, if the Irish Parliament attempted to legislate on any Imperial subject, that veto would be subject to any instructions which might from time to time be given him by Her Majesty. In that event, he wanted to ask the hon. and learned Gentleman upon whose advice such instructions would be given? Why, they would be given upon the advice of the Ministry possessing the confidence of, and responsible to, the Imperial Parliament. A great many very able speeches had been delivered in that debate in opposition to the Bill; but he had noticed that one marked characteristic which had distinguished the great bulk of those speeches was a total want of recognition of the present political difficulties arising out of the condition of Ireland, and its relations to this country. The speeches seemed to him, to use a popular simile, to relegate the present political condition of Ireland to Jupiter and Saturn. But they had to deal, not with a legal, but with a practical question. They had to confront, not abstract theories, but a living people, alive to all the susceptibilities and sentiments, and he might say prejudices, of national feeling; and, at the same time, they had to deal with a Constitutional difficulty of the gravest magnitude and of immeasurable importance. An hon. Member, speaking on Friday night, said that the Government, while putting forward their measure as a remedy for the state of Ireland, had not told the House the evil which it was intended to cure. He (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) would endeavour to approach the question from the point of view of the evil which they had to cure, and the political remedy which they wanted to apply. But, first, he wished to express his strong objection to the assumption which had pervaded a good many speeches on the Ministerial side of the House, in opposition to the Govern-
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  ment, that the opponents of the measure were the exclusive friends and champions of the Union, and that those who advocated the Bill were Disunionists, Disloyalists, and Separatists. [Opposition cheers.] Hon. Gentlemen opposite cheered that observation, but he frankly conceded to them what he claimed for himself. He thought that those who called upon them to retain the Legislative Union between Great Britain and Ireland at any cost were bound to point out to them how that Union had stood the test of experience. He might be deluded; he might be pursuing a wrong course; but he claimed, equally with others, that his own desire was to promote a true and permanent Union between the two countries; but that was entirely different from the Legislative Union. It must be understood that he was now arguing the question from the Unionist standpoint, and that those Gentlemen who defended a Legislative Union were bound to tell them, not what the Union was intended to be, not what it ought to be, not what it might have been, but what it had been and what it was. Had that Act, in the defence of which such great political force and great political intelligence were rallying, had that, as they called it, fundamental Act stood the test of time? It had been tried under every conceivable political circumstance, by every variety of Administration, by both political Parties, with Constitutional liberty and Constitutional law, with exceptional, arbitrary, coercive legislation, under sectarian ascendancy, and with religious equality, accompanied by agrarian legislation of the worst kind, and agrarian legislation of the best kind, by competent and incompetent Chief Secretaries and Lord Lieutenants. They could suggest no political situation, no political difficulty, no political advantage, with which this Union had not been familiar. And what had been the dreary, monotonous, unvarying result? Hopeless, absolute, and irretrievable failure. Had it fulfilled the anticipations of any of those who were active in promoting it? In order to show how little it had done in that direction, he would give one or two quotations from the principal authors of the Union. The first was King George III. His Majesty, in a private and confidential letter to Mr. Pitt, dated February 1, 1801, indicated not

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  only his own private opinion, but the public action he took apparently without the advice of responsible Ministers, when addressing a deputation from both Houses of Parliament. The King said—
  "When the Irish propositions were transmitted to me by a Joint Message from both Houses of the British Parliament, I told the Lords and Gentlemen sent on that occasion, that I would with pleasure and without delay forward them to Ireland. But I could not help acquainting them that my inclination to Union with Ireland was principally founded on the trust that the union of the Established Churches of the Two Kingdoms would for ever shut the doors to any further measures with respect to the Roman Catholics."
  The King spoke not only as a Sovereign, but as the Head of a political Party existing in those days, and known as the "King's Friends," which was so powerful as to be able to displace Mr. Pitt. They had here the honest, transparent views of the King, in which he declared the Union to him was a barrier against the concession of civil rights to the Roman Catholics. And the King was right. If Ireland had retained her own Parliament, that humiliating chapter of their history would never have been written, which told of the broken pledges to the Roman Catholics, of their long struggle for political freedom, and of the final surrender of the Duke of Wellington, not to reason or justice, but to the dread of civil war. It was the legislation of 1829, and of 1869, that had swept away the principle on which the King and a large portion of the Tory Party desired Legislative Union between England and Ireland. Then, again, Mr. Pitt, in a confidential letter to the King, stated what was his intention in promoting the Union. He said—
  "The great object of the Union is the tranquillizing of Ireland and attaching it to this country."
  Had either of those objects been attained? Whatever else the Union might have achieved, it had absolutely, signally failed in securing the objects at which Mr. Pitt aimed, and for which he lavished the gold, the titles, and all the other mess of pottage for which the Irish Parliament sold its birthright. If Mr. Pitt could come back to this House, he would find that, at the expiration of nearly a century, the tranquillity of Ireland, and the attachment of Ireland to this country, were just the two things which mocked their legislation, and eluded their
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  grasp. After 86 years' experience of the Union, with the extended franchise in Ireland, under which the population were in possession of electoral rights of which Mr. Pitt had never dreamed, they had in that House—and he did not wish to be offensive, he wished to call a spade a spade—a solid, organized body of Irish Representatives acting in a manner unique in the history of Parliament. Many of those hon. Members differed among themselves on social and political questions; but every difference of opinion on other points was dominated by the one desire to obtain an independent political existence for their country—the object for which the Irish people had sent them to Parliament. The attachment of Ireland to Great Britain, for which the Union was promoted, was now demonstrated by the presence in that House of a body of Members from Ireland, who avowed that they treated Imperial questions entirely in the light in which they thought they would best advance the one object of Irish interest and Irish sentiment. In the last Parliament many Votes of Censure were proposed on the policy of the Government. In the most crucial Vote, the hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool said that the Irish section, in determining to walk into the Lobby to censure the Government, were not thinking so much of Egypt, but were thinking of Ireland.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNOR: The hon. Gentleman will doubtless excuse me for interrupting him. I said that hon. Members from Ireland thought more of Ireland than of Egypt.
  Mr. HENRY H. FOWLER, said, he was quite willing to accept the qualification of the hon. Member. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) succeeded in defeating Her Majesty's Government by the aid of men who had no sympathy with his policy and who repudiated his finance, but who helped him to turn out the Government because they thought that by putting the Tory Party in power they would further the cause which they had at heart. The same considerations operated in the constituencies. With the knowledge of what he would call that deplorable, if not dangerous, feature of their political life, he could not understand how it could be desired to defend, or to perpetuate, legislation from which such dis-

  515
  astrous results had followed. He maintained that the Act of Union had really destroyed the Union. It had created ceaseless internecine strife. They had destroyed the Irish Parliament; and now, by a singular Nemesis, the Irish were paralyzing their Parliament. The hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Whitbread) had truly said we could not remedy that state of things by any alteration of the Rules of Procedure of that House. They might surrender their Parliamentary freedom and their Parliamentary life; but they could not, while the presence of that organized force remained, prevent the weakening of their Parliamentary power, and the arrest of their Constitutional and Parliamentary progress. With reference to the tranquillity of Ireland. In 1886, as in 1800, the main consideration of British statesmen was the preservation of peace and order in Ireland. This present Administration, as well as every other Administration, had found themselves incapable of discharging the elementary duties of government without the assistance of an armed Constabulary unknown in any other part of the Empire, supplemented by a Military Force greater than that by which we defeated Napoleon. Not only that, but these enormous armed forces, as they were told by hon. Gentlemen opposite, must be strengthened and supported by the aid of a coercive legislation utterly unknown in any other part of the Queen's Dominions. Sir Robert Peel, in the zenith of his power, uttered the mournful but memorable words—"Ireland is my difficulty." It was the difficulty of every one of his Predecessors and of every one of his Successors. It was the difficulty of the present Prime Minister; and it would be the difficulty of right hon. Gentlemen opposite if they exchanged sides in the House. And yet, with this accumulated evidence, which no man could gainsay or evade, they were asked by the Representatives of the great Whig Party to rally round the Legislative Union as the essence and kernel of the British Constitution, and the glory of the British Empire. He yielded to no man, not even to his right hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Goschen), in his belief in the wisdom, the advantage, and the necessity of a Union between Great Britain and Ireland; but he objected to be denounced as a Dis-
  516
  unionist, and to be classed as a Disloyalist, because he raised his voice and gave his vote against a hideous failure which had kindled and fanned the spirit of separation, which had aroused the criminality and the folly of outrage and insurrection, and which, even to-day, calmly contemplated the horrible prospect of civil war. To the arguments which had been used the unanswerable reply was the inexorable logic of facts. The Union had been tried in the balance, and the verdict of English and Irish history, and of the civilized world, was that that Union had been found wanting. Under those circumstances, he asked the House, if the Union was to be preserved, what was desirable, and what was practicable? He agreed with much that had been said as to the intermittent policy which had been pursued. However, the time had now passed for Laodicean lukewarmness. They must either concede frankly, freely, fearlessly, or they must coerce vigorously, sternly, and unflinchingly. The two panaceas could not be combined. They could not walk down both sides of the street at the same time. And in making their choice, forgetting the sad history of the past, and dealing exclusively with the problem as it stood today, they had to consider the enormous alteration that had taken place in the condition of Ireland, not only since the Union, but during the last quarter of a century. The legislation of that House had indirectly destroyed the social forces by which the local government in Ireland was previously carried on. The political power of the classes who ruled in Ireland was neutralized, if not swept away, by the disestablishment of the Church and by the two Land Acts. The ascendancy of faith and the ascendancy of property had had their day. They might, indeed, show some fitful ebullitions of their former spirit; but, as a practical power in Irish politics, their day was past and gone. He called that a social revolution. Side by side with that revolution Ireland, as an agricultural country, had been passing through an economic crisis. Laud Acts and Land Commissioners might adjust excessive rents caused by the abnormal demand for the occupation of the soil; but no legislation could arrest or alleviate the depreciation in the value of the products of the soil. In addition to this economic change, there had been an organic

  517
  change. During the last year they had practically effected in Ireland a political revolution by extending the franchise to the people. All these were conditions which were utterly unknown to those statesmen of the 18th century who had been quoted in this debate as authorities binding upon us at the present day. And not only had the conditions in Ireland changed, but the conditions beyond the sea had changed. In the United States, and in Canada, Australia, and almost every other great British Colony, there were many Irishmen and sons of Irishmen whose longest and whose latest memory was the story of the wrongs they themselves and their forefathers had endured on their native soil. [Laughter.] They might laugh; but those Irish people were a numerical, a moral, and a political power, which no American or Colonial statesman, and which, therefore, no British statesman, could afford to despise. Political wisdom and patriotic loyalty must recognize those conditions. He did not wish to indulge in any threats; but these were facts which were confronting this Empire with weakness, danger, and disruption; and he considered that every Englishman was bound, if he could, to put this question entirely outside Party consideration, for it was one of the gravest crises in the history of the British Empire. The Government, in order to effect that, had in the Bill submitted to the House a plan and a principle. At all events, there was this peculiarity about the principle which the Government asked the House to accept. The Irish people perfectly understood it, and they must try in due course to induce the English people also to understand it. That principle was the creation of a Representative Body sitting in Dublin, elected by the people of Ireland for the exclusive control of specifically Irish affairs. If the principle were unsound, no perfection of the machinery could justify its acceptance. On the other hand, if the principle were sound, it claimed acceptance totally irrespective of the details of the measure. The principle was subject to three conditions—the supremacy of the Crown, the unity of the Empire, and the final authority of the Imperial Parliament. As to the first of these conditions, he apprehended there would be little difference of opinion. The Crown was an integral part of the Legis-
  518
  lative Body. Its prerogatives were the same with respect to that Body as with respect either to the Imperial Parliament or to any other Legislative Body in the Empire. The controversy raged round the second of these conditions—the unity of the Empire—with which he also associated the authority of the Imperial Parliament. That unity might be disturbed in two ways—either by allowing two separate Legislative Bodies to deal separately with questions of a character with regard to which all the citizens of the Empire had equal rights; or, secondly, by so dividing the Supreme Authority, or, rather, by so subtracting from its influence and power, that it could not utter that united voice and exercise that united action which were the instruments and the symbols of national unity and strength. He had already dealt with the first of these difficulties at the commencement of his speech; and he apprehended that the second objection was met by the reservations and restrictions affecting the Irish Legislative Body. What were the subjects which were specifically reserved, and which the Legislative Body could not touch? They were matters in which Great Britain and Ireland were jointly interested—matters which were of the essence of Imperial existence and Imperial policy—the dignity, the prerogatives, and succession to the Crown; the foreign policy of the Empire, with all its cognate questions of International Law and Political or Commercial Treaties, what, in other words, the Americans called "the Treaty-making power;" the Military Forces of the Empire, land, sea, Volunteers; the control of all arsenals, fortifications, and materials of war; the Colonial policy of the Empire in all its ramifications; the commercial policy of the Empire, comprising not only the items of trade and shipping, and the levying of duties on exports or imports, but the control of the coinage, and protection of copyright and patent property; the Criminal Law of the Empire, so far as it affected the Sovereign Authority, or any attempt to assail its supremacy. These were what were rightly termed Imperial affairs. They constituted the rights and the duties of the Empire; their control admitted of no divided authority; and it was their unity which made and guarded the "One Life, one Flag, one Fleet, one Throne." So long as

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  the Imperial Parliament retained all authority, all legislation, all expenditure affecting these matters in its own hands, the unity of the Empire could no more be touched by the legislation of an Irish Legislative Body on exclusively Irish affairs than it could be touched by the creation of one Municipality for that Metropolis. There was no doubt but that anxiety was felt with respect to the working of the measure involving certain risks or dangers. One danger arose from the unhappy cleavage which divided the Christianity of Ireland into two hostile camps, and which separated the owners of the soil from those who occupied it. It was too late in the day to waste time in idle recrimination as to who was to blame in these unhappy contests. They existed, and any settlement of Ireland which claimed to be complete or final must recognize their existence; and while it might anticipate a time when those animosities would cease, it must provide for equal justice and protection. The professors of any faith must not, wherever the Queen ruled, be placed at the mercy of the majority. If this principle had been maintained in Ireland, the blackest pages of its history would never have been written. Protestant ascendancy, as embodied in the Irish Establishment—perhaps the saddest parody of Christianity which the history of the Church recorded—had left scars on the social, moral, and national life of Ireland which it would take generations to efface, and the Liberal Party, who swept away that masterpiece of ecclesiastical injustice were bound to prevent any of Her Majesty's subjects being placed at any disadvantage or subjected to any disability on account of their religious faith. This Bill recognized the rights of the minority who held the Protestant faith, and the minority who represented the property and capital of Ireland. If that recognition was incomplete, if the machinery for defending those rights was inadequate, if there was danger, or the possibility of danger, to any man in Ireland on account of what he believed or what he possessed, then those deficiencies must be supplied. His right hon. Friend the Member for the Border Burghs (Mr. Trevelyan) had referred to the financial question, which he (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) ventured to say his right hon. Friend had entirely misconceived. His
  520
  right hon. Friend had stated the net Revenue of Ireland as £7,500,000, and out of that he estimated £4,600,000 as the contribution to the Imperial Exchequer under the present Bill. The actual amount now paid the right hon. Gentleman put at £2,300,000, and even that hon. Members from Ireland considered to be too much, as they contended that their country was over-taxed. Now, in fact, the present Revenue was £8,350,000, and not £7,500,000. Out of that, Ireland cost this country, in Collection and working the Post Office, £834,000. The Irish Civil Charges were £4,010,000. Thus the total Expenditure was £4,844,000, and apparently a balance was left of £3,506,000 as the payment by Ireland to the British Exchequer; but there was to be deducted £1,400,000 paid in Ireland in the first instance, but really paid by the English and Scotch consumers of beer, whisky, and tobacco. Deducting that sum, the real contribution was reduced to £2,106,000. Now, under the new plan how did the figures appear? The gross Revenue appeared as £8,350,000; contribution to the Army, Navy, and other Imperial Charges, £3,242,000, leaving a balance of £5,108,000. Deducting from that £1,000,000 for the Constabulary, he found the spendable income to be £4,108,000. Then the Civil Charges were £2,510,000; the Post Office and Collection, £834,000; and the net balance, £764,000. Out of this had to be provided Ireland's share of the Sinking Fund—namely, £360,000, which brought the surplus down to £404,000; but, again, Ireland was credited with the £1,400,000 really paid by the English and Scotch consumers; thus her net contribution to the Imperial Exchequer was £3,242,000, less £1,400,000, or only £1,842,000, or less than she paid at present—or, putting it in another form, the real tax payment of Ireland, after deducting the £1,400,000, the cost of Collection and the Post Office was £6,116,000. This would be appropriated as follows:—Irish Expenditure—including £1,000,000 for Constabulary—£3,510,000; Imperial "tribute," £1,842,000; Sinking Fund, £360,000; surplus, £404,000—£6,116,000. That financial position was exceedingly good—better than that which we occupied ourselves, and better than any State in Europe and than

  521
  many English Colonies—and the surplus of £404,000, as compared with the total Revenue, was a very handsome one, and equivalent to a surplus of £4,000,000 or £5,000,000 on our own total Budget of £80,000,000 or £90,000,000. The financial position seemed therefore to be, as he had said, an exceedingly good one, and if expenditure was reduced, as it well might and ought to be, the taxation might also be reduced, and the financial condition of Ireland might become the envy of this country. The other danger was that Irish autonomy was a step towards separation, that it was but an instalment of a demand that would never be satisfied until separation was accomplished, and that it would afford a leverage for advancing and enforcing that demand. That was the argument used against every reform; but he could never see the force of it, and he would not refuse to do a just thing today, because he might be asked to do an unjust one to-morrow. He thought the instalment theory was played out; but he told those who believed in it that there were two safeguards and guarantees against separation, which this Bill did not create, and could not destroy. These guarantees were the material interests of Ireland, and the material forces of England. They would have to regard the Irish people as idiots in the last hopeless stage of imbecility if they precipitated that wholesale destruction of property which any attempt at separation would involve. Ireland was exclusively an exporting country. She exported about £20,000,000 worth annually, and of that we took £19,250,000. To destroy her best if not her only customer, she would have to create a Navy, towards which she did not possess—and under this Bill could not obtain one single ship—ready to meet and conquer the greatest Naval Power on the globe. With her barracks and arsenals occupied by the armed Forces of Great Britain, she would have to create an Army, the first step towards which would be a violation of the law, which English force could and would at once put down. There was more than that. Ireland would have to raise a loan, and he wondered what the Stock Exchanges of England and America would say to the security—he was not saying anything derogatory of the Irish people—but with Ireland in conflict with England, what would they say to
  522
  the security? If Ireland ever contemplated separation from England, she would bring about what John Stuart Mill had said would be a disaster to Ireland, and a disgrace to England. The assent of Ireland to separation as an alternative would be an assent to national suicide, and the question, whenever raised, would not be settled by Acts of Parliament, or by Customs' regulations, but—which God forbid!—by the supreme arbitrament of force. He would conclude by asking hon. Members who objected to the Bill, as practical men, to face the realities of the case and say what they meant to do. English legislation for Ireland had been bad, the people of Ireland detested it and rejected it. The conflict might be continued, for it was in the power of the House to do that; but for how long? Every man in the House must know what would be the sure and certain end. The greatest speech perhaps ever delivered in that House—a speech which Mr. Fox said every man should read, and re-read, until it was imprinted on his heart—was the speech of Mr. Burke on conciliation with America. In that superb combination of genius and eloquence and wisdom, the principles for which the Government were now contending were defended with masterly power. Every argument which had been urged against the present concession, and which was then urged against concession to America, was demolished with resistless force. The loyal and patriotic Unions of that day, the advocates of the integrity of the Empire and the supremacy of the Crown, triumphed, and Mr. Burke was defeated by a majority of over 200; but what was the consequence? Why, nine years after that division, England, humiliated and disgraced, assented to a settlement such as Mr. Burke had never contemplated. He (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) had thought that Englishmen had grown wiser since 1775. They had in their treatment of their own Colonies, in their advice to other European Powers, in their extension of their own electoral limits, declared their belief in Representative Institutions. As a Party, they had emblazoned on their banner, "Trust in the people." Was the Sister Kingdom to have no part or lot in the matter? Were they to be told that Ireland alone of all the Dominions of the Crown, and of all the States of Europe, was not fit for independent

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  self-government? Ireland was, no doubt, in comparison with England, a poor country, poor in minerals, in manufactures, and in commerce; but she was rich in genius, wit, and eloquence, and in her splendid contribution of some of the most illustrious names to the Bede Roll of English history. Irishmen had been sent three times to rule the great India Empire. Some of their foremost Prime Ministers, their most distinguished Lord Chancellors, their most brilliant soldiers, and most accomplished diplomatists, had been Irishmen; and yet there were men of light and leading who laughed to scorn the idea of a Cabinet of Irishmen. They wanted to con-concentrate and invest the intellectual wealth of Ireland in the Administration of Ireland, and by so doing to weld that nation into closer, deeper, more lasting harmony with their own. His hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General had said he was a Unionist. He (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) himself reiterated that remark. He was a Unionist; but he was not a believer in a Union which united the Parliaments while dividing the peoples, but rather in one which, while it might divide the Parliaments, would unite the nations. He was not a believer in a Union founded on fraud and maintained by force; but in a Union based on mutual rights, on mutual interests, on mutual respect, and mutual confidence. From such a Union he believed would spring not only the tranquillity of Ireland, but the uniting and knitting together of all hearts, not only in Great Britain and Ireland, but in the Greater Britain and Greater Ireland beyond the seas, in unswerving allegiance to that united Empire which was at once the home and the citadel of those great principles of Constitutional freedom which were the proud and inalienable inheritance of all the subjects of the Queen.
  LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, the eloquent speech of the hon. Member who had just sat down was one which, he was sure, they were all pleased to hear. The hon. Gentleman did not seek refuge in any vague generalities. With regard to the Bill, he advocated its second reading, and gave the House his reasons why he should support the leading characteristics of the Bill. He said, that the House should vote for the second read-
  524
  ing of the Bill in order to insure the pacification and improvement of Ireland. The hon. Gentleman, in the latter part of his speech, asked the House what it was prepared to do? He (Lord John Manners) ventured to think that the majority were prepared to reject this measure on the second reading. The hon. Gentleman had wound up his speech by a panegyric on Irish statesmen, generals, and Irishmen of light and leading, of whom the hon. Gentleman said all Englishmen were proud. Doubtless all Englishmen were proud of them; but would the hon. Gentleman allow him to ask him what side did they take on this momentous question? Were they in heart and soul with us, or with the right hon. Gentleman opposite? Were these Irishmen who had distinguished themselves in every one of those lines of life to which the hon. Gentleman alluded—were they in his favour on this Home Rule Question or against him and the Government to which he belonged? Let the hon. Gentleman claim, if he could, any one great distinguished living Irishman who was in favour of such a measure as this. At the commencement of his speech the hon. Gentleman contended that the precedent which the Prime Minister had produced the other day for his conduct in asking the House of Commons to give a second reading to a Bill which he intended to withdraw immediately was not a new precedent nor one of a startling character. The hon. Gentleman said that in 1867 the Leader of the Tory Party in the House of Commons introduced a Reform Bill, and on the second reading of that Bill was supported by the right hon. Gentleman the present Prime Minister on the ground that, although he might not agree with all the principal characteristics of that measure, as it would go into Committee and afterwards to a third reading, he saw no reason why he should not support the Bill on the second reading. What a precedent! Did the Government intend to subject this Bill to the ordeal of Committee, and then, if it did not emerge in a satisfactory condition, to give the House of Commons the opportunity of rejecting it on the third reading? The precedent told directly against the hon. Gentleman and not in favour of the position he had assumed. The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister had said that in 1870 Mr.

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  Disraeli, as Leader of the Opposition, voted for the second reading of the Irish Land Bill, although he objected to certain portions of it. Undoubtedly, Mr. Disraeli did support the second reading of that Bill; but why? He gave the reason to the House, and a very remarkable reason it was, and he would direct the attention of the House to it. Mr. Disraeli said—
  "Now, Sir, let me remind the House of what they have probably forgotten—namely, what was proposed in reference to this subject by the Government of 1852, with which I had the honour to be connected. We laid upon the Table of the House four Bills, forming a complete code as regards the land of Ireland. I can describe those four Bills in a sentence. They adopted every recommendation of the Devon Commission. Sir, if those Bills had passed we should not now have been discussing the measure of the right hon. Gentleman. Circumstances, however, occurred which prevented those Bills from passing. There was a change of Government."
  How was that change of Government brought about, and by whom? Mr. Disraeli had laid those four Bills for the reform of land tenure in Ireland in all its principal branches in accordance with the four great recommendations of the Devon Commission, on the Table of the House of Commons; a few months afterwards he had to introduce his Budget. There was great debate on that Budget, and amongst those who took the most vehement and violent part in opposing the Budget, and turning out the Government over it, was the right hon. Gentleman the present Prime Minister. But he did more than that, he not only turned out that Government, but he brought himself into Office. Now, he wanted to ask this question, What steps from 1852, when the right hon. Gentleman came into Office, up to 1870 did he over take in the direction of reforming the Land Laws of Ireland? The right hon. Gentleman not only prevented the Government that was anxious to do so, and had formulated a great scheme for the reform of the Land Laws, from proceeding with it, but during the whole of that time, in the course of which he was many years in Office, he never stirred hand or foot in the matter till 1870. That was the second precedent which the hon. Gentleman had adduced to justify the unprecedented course of asking the House of Commons to read so momentous a Bill and then withdrawing it; but he (Lord John Manners) ventured to say
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  that it formed no precedent for such a proceeding. They came next to consider, as the hon. Gentleman did very frankly, the main features, objects, and provisions of the Bill. After the answer of the Prime Minister this evening they might assume that if this Bill were read a second time it undoubtedly carried with it, in the mind and intention of the Government, the prosecution of the second great measure dealing with the land of Ireland. He hoped the House of Commons would not forget, when it came to decide the second reading of this Bill, that it was virtually deciding the second reading of the Land Purchase Bill as well. Now what, without any circumlocution, was the general purpose and intention of these Bills? The object of the first unquestionably was to hand over the lives, the property, and the liberty of Her Majesty's subjects in Ireland to this new Representative Body, and still more, perhaps, to the new Executive in Ireland. That being so, if the Government showed a want of confidence of the manner in which this new Government in Ireland would deal with one great class of the Queen's subjects, as they unquestionably did by the introduction of the Land Purchase Bill, he had to ask what were the provisions and the safeguards in the measure guarding and protecting the other classes who were not to be expropriated or expatriated? The Prime Minister had dealt in the vaguest generalities when speaking of those safeguards. The first safeguard, it appeared, lay in the constitution of the new Legislative Body. Was ever such a constitution invented since the days of the Abbé Siéyès? Twenty-eight Representative Peers, who, as they died out, were to be supplanted by gentlemen who were possessed of £200 a-year. [Mr. GLADSTONE dissented.] They hoped Her Majesty's Government would take care that, at any rate, they would be preserved for the purpose of maintaining the rights and vindicating the liberties of the 1,400,000 people who would be left to the protection of the new Parliament. It was perfectly clear that after 30 years the Irish Representative Peers would cease to exist. Whether, in view of their ultimate extinction, the Irish Representative Peers would be found willing to undergo the frightful ordeal of being cooped up in a Chamber absolutely

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  powerless, and subject to all the amenities of debate to which they in that House were not infrequently subject, he left for the House to consider. It was clear that the intention of the Government was that, on the formation of this Legislative and Electoral Body, the Irish Peers should be excluded after a lapse of a certain number of years. What was to be the constitution of the popular Body? Two hundred and four Members were to be elected in accordance with the views of the hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway, and they were to be kept in order by the 28 Peers, plus the gentlemen who were elected on the £200 a-year qualification. The scheme was altogether too absurd. The Prime Minister wanted to hear as much as possible of Mr. Burke's views. Just fancy what Burke would have said if he had bad to criticize the right hon. Gentleman's proposal to constitute in one Chamber these two marvellous "Orders," who were to form by their junction a protection to the minority in Ireland. Now the scheme of bringing differing Orders together in one Chamber received a very practical illustration in the year 1789 in Paris. They all knew the result of the junction of the Orders in one Chamber at the time of the French Revolution. Mr. Burke had to comment upon the melancholy result of that frightful experiment, and this was what be said—
  "In the calling of the States-General of France the first thing that struck me was a great departure from the ancient course. I found the representation for the third estate composed of 600 persons. The were equal in number to the representatives of both the other Orders. If the Orders were to act separately, the number would not, beyond the consideration of the expense, be of much moment. But when it became apparent that the three Orders were to be melted into one the policy and necessary effect of this numerous representation became obvious. A very small desertion from either of the other two Orders must throw the power of both into the hands of the third. In fact, the whole power of the State was soon resolved into that body."
  From that they could judge what would be the result of making the two Orders in the Irish Parliament meet in one Chamber. Another of the safeguards on which the supporters of the Bill relied was the agreeable speeches delivered by two or three Members of the Irish Party below the Gangway. He contended that for men responsible for the
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  life, property, and liberty of their fellow-subjects in Ireland to rely upon two or three sugary speeches from those Benches, and to profess unmitigated confidence in those who delivered them, was one of the most lamentable signs of the times. The Gentlemen who made these declarations of confidence seemed to forget the last five years of outrage and violence, which had rendered the history of Ireland a scandal. They appeared to forget that they themselves, good, easy men, were not exposing their own persons, families, or property to those frightful risks. They said—"Look at our noble confidence; see how generous we are; mark the trust we repose in the gallant Irish people." But not one of them, so far as he knew, was risking anything dear to himself; therefore they could afford to play that magnanimous part, and to expose to the risks and hazards of this novel Parliamentary creation the rights and liberties of their Irish fellow-subjects. It was very remarkable that since the first night when the Prime Minister occupied three hours and a-half in explaining the provisions of the measure not a single word with reference to Ulster had fallen from any Member of the Government. Was Ulster to remain in the Bill or was Ulster to be excluded from it? On April 8 the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government said—
  "There is a counter voice; and I wish to know what is the claim of those by whom that counter voice is spoken, and how much is the scope and allowance we can give them. Certainly, Sir, I cannot allow it to be said that a Protestant minority in Ulster or elsewhere is to rule the question at large for Ireland. I am aware of no Constitutional doctrine tolerable on which such, a conclusion could be adopted or justified. But I think that the Protestant minority should have its wishes considered to the utmost practicable extent in any form which they may assume. Various schemes, short of refusing the demand of Ireland at large, have been proposed on behalf of Ulster. One scheme is that Ulster itself, or, perhaps with more appearance of reason, a portion of Ulster, should be excluded from the operation of the Bill we are about to introduce. Another scheme is that a separate autonomy should be provided for Ulster, or for a portion of Ulster. Another scheme is that certain rights with regard to certain subjects—such, for example, as education, and some other subjects—should be reserved and should be placed to a certain extent under the control of the Provincial Councils."
  It was plain, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman himself realized the enormous difficulties presented by the

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  position of Ulster. Was any one of the schemes referred to by him to be embodied in the Bill next autumn? If not, what was the position of Ulster to be? If included in the Bill, Ulster would be treated as a conquered Province. So far as Ulster was concerned, this Bill was one of penalties, disabilities, and privations. At the present moment there was no subject discussed in the Imperial Parliament with reference to which the views of Belfast and Ulster could not make itself heard and felt. He referred to such subjects as Commercial Treaties, Conventions like the Suez Canal Convention, the Transvaal War, and the Egyptian Expedition. If the Bill should pass in its present form Ulster would be unable to discuss these questions in the Irish Parliament, and could not discuss them in the Imperial Parliament. The House was told that in the new Bill of next autumn an attempt would be made to open the door a little wider to Irishmen who should wish to take part in the discussion of such questions on this side of the Channel. Well, he understood that a door could be shut or open without causing inconvenience. The Bill as it stood represented the shut door; the Bill, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. J. Chamberlain) would remodel and reconstruct it, would represent the open door; but the new scheme, so far as it had been developed by the Prime Minister, represented the door ajar. Most Gentlemen would have a very distinct recollection of the inconvenience resulting from a door that was continually ajar. There was a terrible creaking, and very unhealthy and disagreeable draughts blew in upon the unfortunate occupants of the apartment. Arguing by analogy, he could not help coming to the conclusion that equally undesirable consequences would follow the right hon. Gentleman's scheme for enabling Irishmen to return to the House of Commons whenever great questions affecting the Empire at large might be under consideration. He was very sceptical about the possibility of drawing a dividing line between those questions which were completely Irish and those which were partly or wholly Imperial. At the commencement of these debates the Prime Minister had said that he had laboured at it, and to invent such a scheme passed the wit of man. Yet
  530
  now he said a scheme had been framed. As the wit of man had failed, one might assume that the wit of the other sex had found the mode of accomplishing this object, and that some Egeria had come to the assistance of our bewildered and perplexed Numa. He, for one, would await with the greatest anxiety the further development of this now scheme in the Autumn Session. According to the Bill, at the end of 30 years the Irish Peers would not be good enough to send to the Irish Parliament; they were to become extinct; but, then, although not good enough to legislate upon purely Irish matters in Ireland, they were to be kept alive for the purpose of legislating upon Imperial affairs in the English Parliament. Could absurdity go further than that? But how could the scheme work? They were told that the 28 Representative Peers were to come over from Dublin on great Imperial occasions, and that 103 Irish Representatives were to be selected by the Parliament in Dublin to accompany them. Let them imagine the strife and tumult which would arise in the Dublin Assembly when the 204 Gentlemen comprising it should proceed to elect 103 of their number to represent them in the House of Commons. A great deal had been said of late about Grattan's Parliament, and the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Parnell) had declared in a memorable speech that he would only accept a similar Parliament. But this mongrel Assembly which it was proposed to establish in Dublin lacked all the first elements of Grattan's Institution, which was based on the principles of the Resolution passed at Dungannon. That Resolution declared that—
  "A claim of any body of men other than the King, Lords, and Commons of Ireland to make laws to bind this Kingdom is unconstitutional, illegal, and a grievance."
  Grattan, therefore, insisted on the importance of the "Lords and Commons" of Ireland. But what would be the position of the Lords in the proposed new Parliament? Why, 28 Peers, shut up in a Chamber, were to be outvoted and bullied on every conceivable occasion for 30 years, at the end of which period they would finally disappear. He maintained that the proposed Assembly would bear no real resemblance to Grattan's Parliament, either in its constitution or its functions. If Grattan's

  531
  Parliament, constituted of all the ablest men in Ireland, had not succeeded, what hope could the House of Commons entertain that that Body would perform the great functions which the right hon. Gentlemen on the Treasury Bench were so satisfied that it would perform? He had had access to some interesting letters which passed between his Grandfather and Mr. Pitt, soon after Grattan's Parliament was established. His Grandfather went to Dublin as Lord Lieutenant in 1784. Here was an extract from a letter dated August 15, 1784—
  "This city is in a great measure under the dominion and tyranny of the mob. Persons are daily marked out for the operation of tarring and feathering; the magistrates neglect their duty, and none of the rioters (till to-day, when one man was seized in the act) have been taken, while the corps of Volunteers in the neighbourhood seem, as it were, to countenance these outrages."
  In June of the same year—he should have read this first—his Grandfather wrote—
  "The Northern newspapers take notice of an intention in some of the corps (Volunteers) to address the French King, which they recommend as a very proper and spirited measure. No meeting for such a laudable purpose has yet taken place. I can scarcely believe it, though the madness of some of these armed legislators might go to anything. Were I to indulge a distant speculation I should say that without a union Ireland will not be connected with Great Britain in 20 years longer."
  That was a remarkable prophecy, and strictly fulfilled. Grattan's Parliament died of its inherent weakness and its faults. After eight years' experience of his own Parliament, Mr. Grattan said this—
  "What has our renewed Constitution as yet produced? A Place Bill? No. A Pension Bill? No. Any great or good measure? No. But a City Police Bill, a Press Bill, a Riot Act, great increase of pensions, 14 new places for Members of Parliament, and a most notorious and corrupt sale of Peerages. Where will all this end?"
  That was Mr. Grattan on his own Parliament. Let them carry that a little further. The House of Commons was actually set fire to by the mob in 1793; it was invaded by a tumultuous mob in 1794; it had to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act in 1796; it passed the Convention Act in 1797, and Mr. Grattan got so tired of it that he retired from public life for a year or two. Then came the Rebellion of 1798, and exit Grattan's Parliament. That was a short but true
  532
  history, he believed, of Grattan's Parliament. The hon. Gentleman who had preceded him uttered a very confident prophecy that if the Parliament had continued to exist it would have passed Roman Catholic Emancipation. That was easy to say, but it was impossible to prove anything of the sort. All they knew was, that Grattan's Parliament went on until it was extinguished after the great and cruel Rebellion of 1798. With respect to the intense eagerness of the Irish people for a repeal of the Union and the passing of this Bill, he could not help thinking that it was a remarkable fact that, so far as they knew, not one single outrage during the last five years on man, woman, or beast, had been perpetrated for the purpose of obtaining repeal of the Union. Every one of those atrocious outrages was committed for the purpose of obtaining somebody else's property, or wreaking personal revenge on somebody who in the exercise of his undoubted civil freedom had committed some act or abstained from some act, and had so brought upon him the vengeance of the murderers and Moonlighters in the country districts. That being so, and the Bill having, as he ventured to think, all the inconveniences, incongruities, and absurdities he and others had ascribed to it, they were asked to go to the second reading. They were told that it was to be a sort of an abstract Resolution to which no effect was to be given this Session, but that in due course there would be a new Bill which they would be called upon to pass. He ventured to think this—that if the House of Commons were beguiled by any considerations of that sort into passing that measure in its present shape, if those Members who objected to all its leading details were beguiled into giving it a second reading, they would find when the autumn came that their position was one of increased difficulty and embarrassment. He alluded to the second Bill, which was inseparably connected with this. His belief was that when the autumn came those Members who voted for the second reading of this Bill—who disliked one Bill and abominated the other—would find when they came into the House that those Bills would be tied round their necks by the autocrat of the Treasury, and that they would very much resemble

  533
  the condition of the unfortunate burghers of Calais, and it would be more than the ingenuity of Members could effect to extricate themselves from the coil they would find round their legislative necks. No! Those Members of that Imperial House of Commons who believed the principle upon which the Bill was founded to be erroneous, who disliked and condemned many of the leading provisions by which the principle was endeavoured to be put into action, had now an opportunity of expressing that opinion. Surely now was the time for the House of Commons to act. Let the House of Commons rise to the dignity, responsibility, and duty of its position. Let the House of Commons, by refusing the second reading, save Great Britain from shame, humiliation, and disgrace, and Ireland from ruin, confusion, intestine strife, and, it might be, civil war and reconquest.
  MR. F. S. STEVENSONsaid, that in deciding this question existing facts must form the basis. They could not revert to the methods of Cromwell and of William III.; Grattan's Parliament was now remote, and they had to consider, not the opinions of Mr. Pitt, but the facts of the case, and it was with facts that they had to deal. They were confronted now with three general propositions under which the problem of Ireland had to be faced. In the first place, there existed in Ireland that sentiment of race which formed an important factor in the settlement of any question of this nature. Secondly, in a country where the land formed the principal means of subsistence, the system of land tenure was an unjust one; and, in the third place, millions of Irishmen had emigrated to the New World, animated by a sense of the wrongs which their country had suffered, and carrying with them a sense of the miseries that had resulted from the British connection. That feeling had not died away under new conditions in the New World, but was handed down to their descendants. In addition, they were now confronted with certain special conditions at the present juncture. In former times Parliament had been composed to a very great extent of landowners or the Representatives of the landowning class; but under the extension of the franchise matters were now very different. Now the actual cultivators of the soil had a
  534
  direct voice in the management of their own affairs; and, in his opinion, it would be inconsistent and illogical to give them that power and not to take their wishes into account. Among the rural population, and in large towns as well, there was a strong feeling in favour of giving to Ireland those rights to which she was justly entitled, and a feeling that if they acted under the promptings of a sense of justice they would not go far wrong. It was felt that this Irish problem could not be delayed, but must be faced; that it could not be shirked or shelved, but must be settled in one way or another. It was perfectly clear that a step had been taken from which it would be impossible to recede. Under these conditions, it would, in his opinion, be absolutely fatal to delay any further settlement of thin question. The Irish people could not be educated into a sense of responsibility until they had the control of their own affairs, and 20 years of coercion would not do that. They had heard much on the subject of guarantees and safeguards in connection with that measure; but he held that the truest guarantee they could have was not one which rested on mere paper or parchment, but which was inscribed on the tablets of the heart of the Irish people, and which would spring from their consciousness that the greatness and the unity of the Empire were indispensable not to Great Britain only, but also to Ireland. They had been told over and over again that if legislative powers were conferred on an Irish Parliament that Parliament would at once proceed to enact a series of confiscations, spoliations, and what not. Those who brought that charge against the Irish Parliament now sought to be established forgot that this was not borne out by history. It was for the opponents of the measure to show that in times past regularly constituted Governments had resorted to spoliation. History, on the contrary, showed that when settled Governments were set up a sense of responsibility induced them to refrain from adopting any such course; and there was no good reason for supposing that an Irish Parliament when created would form any exception to the general rule in that respect. They had been told that the supremacy of the Imperial Parliament, and what was called the unity of the Empire, must be carefully maintained. Members in all parts of the

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  House were agreed upon those points; and until a few days ago Gentlemen sitting on his (the Ministerial side) thought that the supremacy of the Imperial Parliament was put in some jeopardy by the Bill. Although the power to be given to the Irish Legislative Body would be a delegated power, it was pointed out that there would be a practical difficulty in the way of the Imperial Parliament at any time resuming those powers. It was felt that if they were resumed in the absence of the Irish Members it would be grossly unfair towards Ireland; while if they could be resumed only with the consent of the Irish Parliament, then, as the right hon. and learned Member for Bury (Sir Henry James) had shown, the Imperial Parliament would have parted with a portion of its supremacy so far as one part of the Kingdom was concerned, thus introducing into the Constitution an element of rigidity that was alien to its spirit. Now, however, that dilemma no longer confronted them, but had been completely removed by what had taken place at the Foreign Office last Thursday. They were told that the Irish Members were to be retained at Westminster not only for fiscal but for Imperial purposes. The problem to be solved, when that measure was reintroduced by the Prime Minister, resembled that which was presented by the existing relations between Hungary and Crotia. The Crotians had a separate Body which dealt with questions that were specifically and exclusively Croatian, and yet they sent Members to the Hungarian Diet who voted only on matters of common interest. Those matters of common interest were reserved, and formed the subject of debate either at the beginning or the end of each Session. There, therefore, we had a case in which the difficulty that we had to meet had been faced, and to a great extent to the satisfaction of all concerned. Acting in accordance with what he conceived to be the dictates of justice, and also of that expediency which the House never lost sight of, he heartily supported the second reading of that measure.
  COLONEL HUGHES-HALLETTsaid, that there had not been a sufficient raison d'être shown for the Bill. Three points stood out clearly from the mass of arguments for and
  536
  against that Bill to which they had listened. The first was the justification for the Bill involving motives which had led to its introduction; the second was the security for its provisions, if they were passed, ever being fulfilled; and the third related to whether or not it came up to the final demands of the Irish people. He assured Irish Members below the Gangway that he desired to treat that question in a thoroughly calm and dispassionate spirit. With regard to the justification for that Bill or the motives which had produced it, he had been struck by the fact that the Prime Minister throughout the debates upon it had avoided making any allusion to that powerful organization, the National League, which had been described as the apostolical successor of the Land League. That organization had been the cause of the effect now exhibited in the Bill before the House. He maintained that the movement which had set this scheme in motion had come into existence not from any feeling that justice had to be done to Ireland in order to remedy grievous wrongs that were supposed to have been committed in the past, not from a feeling that the Irish people were entitled to make their own laws, but it was the outcome of the stern necessity imposed upon the country by the voice and the action of the National League. The mandate against the payment of rent and the raising up of the terrible system of "Boycotting" had terrorized, not only the masses in Ireland, but had succeeded in terrorizing the mind of the Prime Minister of England, and had forced him to lay a scheme of legislation before Parliament which must prove dangerous, if not destructive, to the interests of the British Empire. But was it really the case that Ireland was in favour of Home Rule? Was the demand for a Legislative Assembly in Dublin the free and unfettered expression of the Irish people? It was maintained by the advocates of the scheme that the answer was to be found in the fact that 86 out of the 103 Irish Members were returned to Parliament on distinctly Nationalist grounds. But was this result a natural or an artificial one? He did not say that it was artificial, but certainly he did not hesitate to say that it was not entirely natural. If the power of the National League had not hung over every Irish elector at the Elec-

  537
  tion, it was probable that he would not have voted as he did, and that if he had been entirely free no doubt he would have voted otherwise. The uneducated Irish peasant seemed to have voted as he was told by the parish priest and under the domination of the National League. He had been a great deal in Ireland, and had conversed with Irishmen of all classes, and he believed that there was not a man in Ireland who by his industry had become possessed of an independence, however small, and who had anything to lose, who, in his heart, was desirous of Home Rule. He granted that the proletariat and the small mechanic were in favour of Home Rule, and that the small shopkeepers in many cases might cry out for it; but he questioned whether the cry was genuine, and whether it was not the result of a feeling that by opposing the movement their interests might be ruined by the action of the National League. The farmers in Ireland made no cry for Home Rule. All they wanted was to get the land cheap. A great deal had been said in disparagement of Coercion Acts, and of the futility of this kind of legislation; but he wished to point out that coercion was nothing more than the simple insistence of a British Government for the maintenance of law and order in all parts of the United Kingdom alike. As a matter of fact, however, certain classes in Ireland found that agitation paid better than honest industry, and rebellion paid better than both. In order to remedy this state of things, Parliament was asked to establish a Parliament in College Green, or what the Irish Members called the restoration of Grattan's Parliament. He was inclined, however, to think that it would be much more like Tyrconnel's Parliament, which, to the best of his recollection, passed Acts of attainder against Protestants and English landowners. Supposing the Parliament proposed by this Bill were established in Dublin, it seemed to him that the Representatives of the Nationalist Party now or in the future would be subject to wire-pulling by a Council sitting in Chicago or New York. But, assuming that the Irish Nationalist Party were able to cut themselves adrift from the influence of the Party in America, what guarantee had they if the Bill passed that no further concessions would be demanded? The conditions under
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  which the Irish Parliament would be called into existence furnished no adequate guarantees that the authority of the British Parliament would not be impaired. There was no stipulation provided which would be of any practical value; and it must not be forgotten that the forces which sent the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Parnell) into Parliament, when the time came for him to bring forward measures of Home Rule for his countrymen, might and would confront him in such a manner as to defy the passing of any laws which civilized communities must require in order to preserve their social and Constitutional existence. He asked whether this scheme of autonomy for Ireland was brought forward by the Prime Minister in the honest conviction that it would cut the Gordian knot of the Irish difficulty, or to suit the exigencies of Party? Was it founded upon the honest conviction that it would restore prosperity to that country, or was it extorted by fear? Was it honestly introduced with the object of preserving law and order in Ireland, or was it a mere capitulation entered into with the object of retaining place and power in England? It had been declared that the Prime Minister entertained no idea of the ultimate separation of the two countries; but who could insure us against the time when it might suit the convenience of the Leaders of the National Party to demand such a separation? In such a case, until that separation was obtained, Ireland might become the camping ground for hostile nations, and the Business of the Imperial Parliament might be brought to a deadlock by the votes of Irish Members. The Irish Party had obtained as their breakfast the disestablishment of the Irish Church. They had now got this Bill for their dinner; and they might demand Separation for their supper. Lord Beaconsfield had declared, many years ago, that Home Rule meant the dismemberment of the United Kingdom, and that those who favoured such a policy were false to their Sovereign and to the country, and might live to lament the disasters which their policy had brought upon the nation. The Prime Minister had held similar language; while in 1873 the Chancellor of the Exchequer had warned the House that governing Ireland according to Irish ideas meant our not

  539
  governing Ireland at all. The old proverb said that it was only the first step which cost; and that freely translated into Latin meant facilis est descensus Averni. And if they once lent themselves to carrying this Bill it was impossible to predict where they would finally find themselves landed. If Ireland suffered under any real grievances, by all means let them endeavour to remove them; but let them cease to treat her as though she were a nation of children, to be first coerced and then coddled. If Ireland were to be treated on the same lines as England, Scotland, and Wales were, she could have no real cause of complaint. If they were to adopt the wise and prudent policy towards Ireland that he had suggested they might yet see the murky clouds that now environed her lifted and the sun of prosperity and contentment shine over her and illumine with its beneficent rays those who, if left alone, were a warm-hearted and a loyal people.
  MR. STOREY: I am not one who has taken up the cry of Home Rule recently; but one who, since I have had a beard on my chin, have advocated the right for the Irish people which I, as an Englishman, claim for my own country—the right of self-government. There may have been sudden conversions on the side of the House from which I speak; but you must remember that sudden conversions are not necessarily false ones. St. Paul was converted suddenly, but his conversion was real; and it is idle to suppose that, before he saw the light from above, he had not many searchings of heart. Although there have been sudden conversions on this side of the House—the conversion, for instance, of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who, doubtless, by-the-bye, will be able to explain the process by which he has arrived at his present position of mind—I want hon. Gentlemen opposite, in fairness, to believe that there are a very large number of Members in this quarter of the House, some who were in the last Parliament, but, notably, many who have come into this Parliament, who hold the Democratic view, and believe that peoples everywhere have the Divine right to govern themselves, and to shape their own destinies. If I have been struck with one thing in this debate more than by an-
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  other, it has not been with the change of opinion I have heard expressed by some hon. Gentlemen on the Ministerial side of the House. I admit that it is rather remarkable; but more remarkable still has been the reticence of right hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition side of the House. Some here may have changed their views; but my difficulty is to know what is the real opinion of those who lead the Tory Party? I think the noble Lord the Member for Paddington (Lord Randolph Churchill) especially might be called upon to state in this debate what his views are. I notice that he seems to look on and observe the duel on this side of the House. If I might do so without offence, I would compare him to Iago, and recall a very remarkable scene in the play of Othello. I can imagine the noble Lord peeping from behind the Speaker's Chair, and, whilst he observes the Roderigo of West Birmingham proceeding to make his onslaught upon the Cassio of Mid Lothian, saying to himself—
  "Now, whether he kill Cassio,
  Or Cassio him, or each do kill the other,
  Every way makes my gain."
  [Cheers.] I beseech hon. Members who sit behind the noble Lord to be chary with their cheers when he addresses the House. They will make a mistake if they bestow too much confidence upon him. You tell us on this side of the House that the Prime Minister converts us, and leads us in ways we do not wish to go; but I have no complaint with hon. Gentlemen opposite. I am not going to say a single word that will give offence to one of them, because, if the Prime Minister and my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary do not carry this Home Rule Bill, as is very likely, owing to the action of Roderigo, the noble Lord is the man in whom I place my confidence. The Tory Party is the Party which will do the great thing the Liberals failed to do. Therefore, it is with especial regret I look upon the action of the noble Marquess the Member for Rossendale (the Marquess of Hartington). I would not in this House say one word disrespectful to the views and the character and the conduct of the noble Marquess. He is a Whig of the pure type. I am a Radical of the dangerous type; but I respect the noble Marquess. I have honoured him ever since I entered this House; and,

  541
  although I can seldom follow him, I commend the dignity and honesty with which he supports every view he puts before the House. I deplore the position in which he is about to be put in regard to this Home Rule Bill. I know what is going to happen. There have been so many prophets that I venture to prophesy. I prophesy that if the acts of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Mr. J. Chamberlain), the Radical Member, result in the defeat of the Bill which contains the very essential principle of Radicalism, the noble Marquess the Member for Rossendale and his Whig Friends will see, as we have seen three or four times in this century, the Tory Party allied to the Radical Party, and reinforced by the Irish Party, carrying a Bill after all. Now, as the question has been approached in half-a-dozen different ways, I should like the House to permit me to put before it in 20 or 30 sentences the point of view from which a Radical looks at this question of Home Rule. I was particularly struck by the generous words in which the Prime Minister excepted the people of Scotland from any charge that they were concerned in the evil government of Ireland in the past. I freely admit it; but I wish the right hon. Gentleman had gone a little further. I wish he had generously added—as I think he would if he had thought of it—that the English people neither have a right to be charged with complicity in the nefarious Acts by which Ireland was bound to England in this unholy union, and by which she has been mismanaged for so many years. If any part of this Kingdom is to be charged with the evils of the past, it cannot be the common people. They had no power until 1867. In 1867 half of them gained power, and the first use they made of their power was to hold out the right hand of fellowship to the people of Ireland. Since 1885 the whole people of the country have had power; and as they have had no complicity in the misgovernment of the past, so I, one of themselves, the Representative of a Democratic constituency, say that the people of England—the common people—haee no will, no inclination, no interest in perpetuating a state of things under which Ireland feels bound to act in antagonism to England; but, on the government for the people; Turkey co-
  542
  ercing Bulgaria, the Divine right of self-contrary, as Englishmen, believing that they would resist to the death every attempt to misgovern them, or to govern them against their will, so they will give to another nation—their brothers in blood and in heart—the same right to govern themselves as they enjoy. Why is it I propound this Radical doctrine? For three reasons. First of all, because I admit that we have misgoverned Ireland in the past. Nobody denies it. There is not a Member who dare rise on that side of the House and say that we have governed Ireland well. We have mismanaged Ireland. There are people who look with a light heart at the matter; but, in my opinion, the historian, the impartial historian—not the historians who write nowadays in the daily newspapers, but the impartial historian of the future—who comes to write the history of the connection between England and Ireland in the 19th century, will not point out the petty details which hon. Members opposite occupy themselves with, but will write in broad characters this damning accusation against England—"A diminished population, languishing industries, ruined agriculture, the people in heart and soul opposed to yourselves," he will say; "this is the record the English have made in 86 years of government." That, Sir, will be our condemnation. But it is not merely when I look at Ireland I claim for her this right to self-government. Common shame makes me do it. Common shame ought to make every Radical do it, and it ought to make the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham do it. I do not speak to the Conservatives in the House, or the Whigs either. ["Hear, hear!"] I hope hon. Members will not think I mean to be disrespectful. If I am to speak to anyone at all, I would rather speak to those who, I think, are going astray, than to those who are, I think, consistently following their own principles. I admit hon. Members opposite are consistently following their own principles, and I would rather speak to erring brothers on this side of the House. Now, look at what we have done. There is not a country in Europe, where the people have sought this right of self-government, but we Radicals have supported it. If it was Russia coercing Poland, the Divine right of self-

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  government for the people; Austria coercing Italy, the Divine right of self-government for the people; but when it comes to England governing Ireland, not as Ireland wants, but as England wants, then we seem to forget our principles and deal out to the Irish people a very different meed to what we deal to those at a distance. There has been one exception to this; I allude, of course, to the case of America. I have never heard during the course of this debate the case of America fairly quoted; but I will put before the House my case if von, Sir, will permit me. In the case of America the argument was this. The people of the Northern States, by force, compelled the people in the Southern States to remain in the Union. What I want to know is, What was the Union? What is the Union between England and Ireland? What was the Union between England and America? Thirteen Sovereign States met, and after solemn argument and prayer bound themselves in solemn bond that they would stand together. But how did we obtain the Union with Ireland? Not with prayer, but bribes; not with argument, but base corruption. If the Irish people wish to withdraw from that Union, we have no moral right—we may have the right of force—to stop them. If these people make a solemn bond with us, binding themselves and the two nations, then, but not till then, our moral right exists. I have heard in this House declarations that we can compel the people of Ireland to stand to this Union. I say as an Englishman, knowing my own people in the North—hard-headed, clear-minded men—that although they would hold the Irish to any bond they might enter into, they entirely revolt against the idea that they should use the sword to compel the carrying out of the present Union. It is no Union of which we can be proud. It is no Union in the eyes of the civilized world; and, therefore, I say it is time that this base and unworthy Union should be done away with, and that there should be substituted for it a Union which, in my judgment, will bind the two nations together more closely than they have been bound together before. I do not object to hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite opposing this measure; but I should like to ask the House, how can any Radical oppose it?
  544
  The very essence of the Radical creed is that a country should be allowed to govern itself; and yet we have Radicals in this House opposing this measure, and proposing some sort of plans of their own. I have not yet ascertained positively what those plans are; but, whatever they are, they seem to err in one particular point; they never seem to consider the Irish people as a people, or to imagine that Irishmen have hearts and souls of their own. The Radical Leader, as he is called, does not seem to think that Irishmen are to be treated as men of flesh and blood. He seems to think that they are so many manufactured articles, to be disposed of at so much a dozen, a heavy discount being allowed if the business be intrusted to him; and, therefore, he objects to the plan put forward by the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister, and I understand he is going into the Lobby against him. I have got a quotation here, and I am sorry the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham is not here to enjoy it, for I should like him to recollect what he said in September, 1885. He said—
  "Two million voters, hitherto silent and unheard, will now demand attention, and the claims which they make, and the rights upon which they insist, will be an important factor in our future legislation. The programme which satisfied a limited electorate is much too restricted for the new constituencies. This has even attracted the attention of the 'Stupid Party.'"
  I beg hon. Gentlemen opposite to understand that these are not my words. I should address them much more respectfully. These are the words of their trusted ally. Let me resume the quotation—
  "They based their hopes—that is the Tory Party—on the expectation of differences in our ranks, of a great secession from the Liberal camp. I do not think there are any of us who will be tempted to desert our old camp in order to make new political allies with that heterogeneous combination which includes Free Traders and Protectionists, Ulster Orangemen and English Roman Catholics, Licensed Victuallers and Established Churchmen, Tory Democrats and Fossil Reactionaries, all uniting their discordant voices in order to form a mutual protection society, and for assuring to each other place, privilege, and power."
  Sir, after that quotation, I do not wonder that the noble Marquess at the head of the Tory Party (the Marquess of Salisbury) said he would use the right hon. Gentleman, but he would not trust him.

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  I do not want to say any more about the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham; but I wish him to consider—no doubt he has considered, he does nothing without consideration—to consider what he is going to defeat this Bill for, in support of what policy is he going to give his vote? I am not going to explain that policy at any length. Twenty years of coercion the noble Marquess promised us. ["No, no!"] Well, then, I will substitute an Elizabethan euphemism, and say a Government firm and stable—a firm Government by those who, in the face of a General Election, dare not renew the Coercion Act. I have been in the House only some four or five years; but I have seen enough sitting here, and seldom speaking, watching hon. Gentlemen, and especially right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench, long enough to know that whatever else we may look for—and I look for many things from them—I do not look for a Government firm and stable. Nor do I look for it from any Government on that side of the House or this. No; not till we get a Radical Government. Hon. Members entirely misapprehend the Radicals of this country; they are firm, and they will find that out when the Radicals come into power. The noble Marquess, if he did not ask for 20 years of coercion, at any rate proposed that £150,000,000 should be spent in deporting 1,000,000 Irishmen. ["No, no!"] Well, I am unfortunate. I cannot please hon. Members when I quote what was said. I will put it in another way. He said he would not propose it, yet the money would be better spent in that way. ["Hear, hear!"] Oh, I am glad I am right this time. Then here it is I join issue with hon. Gentlemen and with the noble Marquess. I would rather spend £150,000,000 in any way in the world than in deporting the sons of toil from either this county or Ireland. I deplore the aristocratic offensiveness of the proposal. Speaking as a son of the poor, there is nothing I object to more than that any one Marquess, or anyone else, should make the deportation of 1,000,000 of men from their native country a high question of State. If there must be deportation, I can tell you a much better way of spending the money. A shipload of Marquesses, a few Earls thrown in, as many Baronets,
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  especially the newly-made ones. In that way if we spent £150,000,000 we might get a good return; but of the men who work and make the wealth of the country, I tell the noble Marquess and all those who agree with him, we will keep as many in the country as possible. I have very little more to say; I thank the House for listening to me so long. I want hon. Members opposite just to realize the fact that what we feel, what I feel, speaking for myself and my constituents—and I feel I can speak on this matter for my constituents—I only wish that all my hon. Friends on this side of the House could honestly say the same—speaking for myself and my constituency, we feel this—we do not want separation from Ireland; we do not want to injure by one jot or tittle the great fabric of the British Empire; but we want union with the Irish people by agreement and by affection. We deplore the circumstances of the past 86 years; we think they have brought harm to Ireland; we are sure they have brought shame to England. We say the time has come for a new state of things; and we believe that in the proposals of the Prime Minister for giving Irishmen the management of their own affairs we have proposals that will bring peace between the two countries. For 86 years Ireland has protested against this state of things. Up to 1829 inarticulately, from 1829 to 1885 semi-articulately, and since 1885 with the articulate voice of a great people. I say we are bound to listen to the voice of those Gentlemen, who represent Ireland. I know all the time I am speaking—at least, I think so—that when the division on this Bill is called, the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government and his supporters will be in a minority. ["No, no!"] I say I think so; and, Mr. Speaker, I cannot but recall the analogy between now and 100 years ago. That analogy has been referred to in eloquent terms by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) in his magnificent speech; but I will just refer to it again in a word or two. A hundred years ago there was a great Minister, venerable, venerated, potent—like the right hon. Gentleman who is at the head of the Government now; not even the voice of faction could say of that great Minister of 100 years ago that he was not patriotic, and did

  547
  not love his country, for in the darkest days of her misery and degradation the elder Pitt took hold of her fortunes when her soldiers were flying from the enemy, when her ships were driven from the seas, and when her spirit failed within her. He, by the magic power of his patriotic soul, brought England to the height of her fortunes, and delivered her from all her enemies. He was a patriot, and he loved his country, did this great Minister. In his old age, and when tottering on the verge of the grave, there was a great question—as there is a great question now—of the right of an English-speaking people over the sea to govern themselves according to their own ideas; and this patriot Minister, the great-souled Chatham, in his old age proposed to Parliament some such measure of conciliation and justice as the Prime Minister proposes now. Then the Whigs and Tories—aye, not the Tories alone—the Whigs, ever faithful to their tradition of giving as little reform as will suit the petty circumstances of the time—the Whigs and Tories of the time united to defeat the Minister and his Bill. His Bill was defeated, and the Minister passed into his grave. Within a few brief years, the time for conciliation having passed, the English-speaking race over the sea asserted by arms its right to that self-government God means a people should have; their efforts succeeded, and England was degraded. It will be an evil omen if, after 100 years, the miserable experience of that time should be repeated by a British Parliament now. Happily, there is one difference between 1776 and 1886. In 1776 the common people of the country had no power; they were but carriages drawn by the power or will of their own politically, aristocratic steam engine; they had no Now ft is different. If the verdict of this House—a verdict of a heterogeneous Party of Tories, Whigs, and so-called Radicals—if a verdict here should defeat the Bill, repeating the blinded course taken by Parliament 100 years ago, then I trust the Prime Minister will appeal from the House to the country; and sure I am—it may be not the first time nor the second time, it may not be by these hands, but at some time not far off, and by one Party or the other—the right of the Irish people to manage Irish affairs on their own soil will be
  548
  conceded by the Parliament of Great Britain.
  MR. MACNAGHTEN: I am sure that every Member of this House is desirous that this debate should close without unnecessary delay. The Bill is practically dead. [Cries of "No!"] Yes; it is dead, and buried too. The debate has sunk into a hollow discussion upon a measure which will never appear again in the same form; and even if it should re-appear it is very doubtful whether it would be accompanied by the measure which the Prime Minister has declared to be an inseparable part of his great scheme. Under these circumstances, I think that any ordinary Member who intrudes in the debate owes an apology to the House. My apology and my excuse are that the views of a large body of Irishmen, of whom I am one, have not been laid before the House, at any rate by one of themselves. I am not an Orangeman nor am I a Nationalist. And if I may venture to say so, I do not agree in the estimate which each of these Parties passes upon the action of the other. If I may say so without offence to Orangemen, I cannot deny to the Nationalists the possession of patriotic motives; and I am certainly unable to agree with the hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General (Sir Charles Russell) in the statement that the utterances of the Orangemen are mere bluster and brag, and that they are nothing but the tools of their superiors. The Orangemen are a very independent body, jealous, and properly jealous, of interference. They are, in fact, the democracy of the Protestant element, and are quite capable of directing their own actions. Still, I am bound to say that I do not agree with the violent language which some members of that Party have used; and I desire to avoid, as far as I can, giving offence either to the Orangemen or to the Nationalists. But I wish, as an Irishman, to state what my objections to this Bill are. I object to it on two grounds—in the first place, because it appears to me to place Ireland in a very degraded and humiliating position; and, secondly, because it opens the door to absolute separation and independence. These two arguments are contradictory, as the hon. and learned Attorney General said the other night; but that is not my fault.

  549
  The Bill itself is contradictory. I have tried to understand it as well as I could. I have read it over and over again; and I think I have listened to everything that has been said about it. Whether the Government have thrown as much light upon it as they could I do not know. I rather think they have not, because I observe that, at the historic meeting held at the Foreign Office, a young and artless Member of the Party rose and begged the Prime Minister not to commit himself at that stage to any definite statement which might hamper him later on in the year in the framing of a new Bill. That seemed to me to be a most extraordinary request to make of the Prime Minister. I think the hon. Member cannot have studied the speeches of the Prime Minister with the same care that I have done. Did the Prime Minister ever commit himself to any statement? But the right hon. Gentleman was equal to the occasion. With admirable gravity, he thanked his youthful adviser and promised he would follow his advice. I think the most suspicious and most sceptical of the Tory Party will believe that the Prime Minister will religiously keep that promise. With the Bill before the House, and such statements as the Government have vouchsafed—definite or indefinite—in regard to it, one thing is clear. It has been said over and over again. This is a Parliamentary contract, or a Parliamentary compact. Now, I am not aware that there is any difference between a contract and a compact; but I have always thought it was essential in any contract or compact that the terms should be clear, precise, and definite. That is not the belief of hon. Gentlemen opposite. The Chief Secretary said that this was not a "cast iron Bill;" and what he prided himself most of all on in the measure is its adaptability. His words were that he prided himself most of all on its "flexibility of adaptation." That notion of flexibility of adaptation is greatly in favour with some of the Party opposite. I think the House was very much enlightened the other day by a speech from the Treasury Bench, in which a Member of the Government said that he had always thought that in advocating Liberal politics he was supporting a Party who were prepared to alter their policy "as frequently as circumstances demanded."
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  That was the language of a young Member of the Government; but you do not learn the secrets of the Party from "an old Parliamentary hand." I think the Chief Secretary was right in claiming "flexibility," the governing principle of the Liberal Party opposite, as the leading feature of this Bill. To my mind it is a very novel and very dangerous idea to have a compact vague and flexible. I think I can retort on the Chief Secretary that we in Ireland are not fools or children, and I say—"Tell us exactly what you are binding us to." Nothing is so dangerous, and so likely to lead to quarrels and bickerings, as a vague and flexible compact. I have said that I object to the Bill, because it is likely to lead to the degradation of Ireland. Let me leave out for a moment the flexible quality of the Bill, and let us see what it is the Bill really purports to concede to Ireland. We have often heard hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway say that they would not be satisfied with anything less than Grattan's Parliament. We all know what Grattan's Parliament was. It was as near independence as it could possibly be. But does this Bill concede Grattan's Parliament, or anything like Grattan's Parliament? What is more, does it concede a Parliament at all? Why, we were told that the other night in the speech which the Secretary to the Treasury praised so deservedly to-night. The hon. and learned Member for Wisbech (Mr. Rigby) is a great Constitutional lawyer, and he told us that this Body the Government propose to create is not a Parliament; that there cannot be two Parliaments; and this is not a Parliament at all, but a Legislative Body, just like a Local Board, or a parcel of Judges meeting to devise rules under the Judicature Act. The hon. and learned Member for Wisbech went on to combat the very admirable arguments of the hon. and learned Member for the Inverness Burghs (Mr. Finlay), and, commenting on some of his observations with regard to the omission of the clauses in the Colonial and Indian Acts which had been referred to, said that there was nothing in it, but that the clause, if not expressed in the Bill, was plainly understood. Well, I do not venture to differ from the hon. and learned Member. He is a Member of my own Profession, and a great Constitutional authority. Hon.

  551
  Members opposite, commenting on the arguments of hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House, always say that there is nothing in them; and here they say that, although that clause is not in the Bill, it is plainly understood. But do hon. Members below the Gangway know what the clause is. Let me read it to them. It is this, only substituting "Ireland" for "the Colonies," and "Irish" for "Colonial"—
  "Any Irish law which is or shall in any respect be repugnant to the provisions of any Act of Parliament extending to Ireland shall be read subject to such Act, and shall to the extent of such repugnance, but not otherwise, be and remain absolutely void and inoperative."
  ["Hear, hear!"] Hon. Members below the Gangway say "Hear, hoar!" Do they know where they are? The Act of George I., which has been before referred to, contained two clauses, and two clauses only—one was, that the Kingdom of Ireland should be subordinate to the Kingdom of Great Britain, and that the King and Parliament of Great Britain could make laws which were to bind Ireland; and the other was to the effect that the English House of Lords should be supreme over all actions at law in Ireland. That Act was so obnoxious, so hateful, to the Irish people that they almost rose in rebellion, and Grattan's Parliament was the result; and yet this Bill is actually re-enacting both of those clauses—one you will find in Clause 36, and the other the hon. and learned Member for Wisbech tells us is understood, though not expressed. That I think is a very degrading and humiliating position. But it does not stop there. Irishmen are forbidden to legislate about many things—for instance, about trade. But trade is the one thing which, if Ireland has a Parliament of her own, we are told she will try to revive. They are forbidden to legislate about foreign politics. The hon. and learned Member for the Inverness Burghs (Mr. Finlay) says that in a certain class of foreign politics which create difficulties with England the people of Ireland have always taken a deep interest; and he instanced the exploits of the Mahdi. I will make a more pleasing reference. I have myself a clear recollection that one or two hon. Members sitting below the Gangway have taken a very lively interest in the affairs of India, and their interference has been of public service.
  552
  But all that is to be changed. I was astonished to hear the Secretary to the Treasury say to-night that Irishmen may not even discuss these matters. I do not find that in the Bill. Why, these matters are discussed at almost every Board of Poor Law Guardians in Ireland; and yet the Legislative Body of Ireland is to sit mute, and if an hon. Member happens to rise and refer to any of them, I suppose the Irish Speaker would call him to Order, and say that he was trespassing on very dangerous ground. I say that that is a degrading and humiliating position, and while you are pretending and making believe to concede Grattan's Parliament, what you are really doing is to restore the state of things which Grattan's Parliament was intended to do away with. You are creating a Body which will be more fettered and hampered than the Irish Parliament which preceded Grattan's Parliament, and which was restricted by Poyning's Act and the Statute of George I. That is my first objection to the Bill. My second objection to the Bill is that it opens the door to separation. That is due to this very element of flexibility. I have shown, I think, how different this Bill is from what the Irish people have been led to expect. The result will be that when these limitations and restrictions are recognized, and thoroughly understood in Ireland, the feeling of discontent created by the Act of George I. will be produced by this Act. And then some new Lead or may arise—possibly one of the hon. Members who sit below the Gangway, or, if they find themselves so fettered by the declarations they have made, it may be some other and some younger patriot, who will say, in words we all remember, that "No man has a right to fix the boundary to the march of a nation." And then he will try to evade the Act, and for a time he will be the most popular man in Ireland. Will it be difficult to evade this Act? I am prepared to say that any man could easily drive a coach and six through almost every section of this Bill. Take one case—take the case of the Volunteers. Ireland would be prohibited from legislating on that subject. But there may be Volunteers without any legal enactment. As far as I know, the old Irish Volunteers did not owe their existence to statute; and what has been before may be again. If

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  troublous times come, and there was a war with France or America, a body of Volunteers would be an awkward factor if the Irish people became dissatisfied with this Act. It is said there may be Volunteers; but how are you to pay them, and how are you to arm them? I do not think there would be much difficulty about that. We all know what enormous subscriptions have come within the last few years from America to Ireland to forward the cause of Irish independence, and I cannot help thinking that what has happened already may happen again. But I take leave to say that over and above that there is nothing whatever in the Bill which would prevent the Irish Legislature from devoting taxes raised in Ireland to the payment and equipment of Volunteers. And so it is with regard to trade. The new Body is to be forbidden to legislate upon, or even, if the Secretary of the Treasury is right, to discuss, questions of trade. I cannot think he is right about that, but it may be so. But I do say there is nothing in the Bill which would prevent the Irish Parliament from giving bounties to Irish industries, if they desired to drive English trade from the country. It is said that Ireland would be bound by the statutory contract into which by this Bill she would enter, or England should recall the boon. That might be so, if we knew what the terms of the contract really were; but that is the very thing we do not know. If the terms of the contract were definite and found within the four corners of the Bill, I could understand a person saying—"You have overstepped the limit, and must take care what you do." But what this Bill does is this—it says—"You must not legislate with regard to certain things; but with regard to all the rest you may be as free as air." If that is so—if it is so flexible—where are you to draw the line, or to say that an Irish patriot is overstepping due limits? I can understand what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that the time may come when it would be necessary to reconquer the country with "the unanimous voice of a united people, and the consenting conscience of the civilized world." I think we should have some difficulty in getting the unanimous voice of a united people, or the consenting conscience of the civilized world. I can understand
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  that, however; but I cannot understand how the abiding sense of England's greatness can keep Ireland within the strict limits of its duty. It has never done so yet. The Prime Minister once said to Lord Spencer, and Lord Spencer has repeated the observation, that England could do what she liked with Ireland—that she could drag Ireland behind her as a mighty man-of-war drags through the sea a little eight-oared boat.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. W. E. GLADSTONE): Meaning, if England were in the right.
  MR. MACNAGHTEN: Yes; but who is to be the judge of that? It would be all very well if there were a supreme arbitrator to whom we could have recourse. The Prime Minister may depend upon this—that a very different view of what is right would be taken in Ireland from that taken in England. For the last 86 years England had been doing what she thought right in Ireland; but during a great part of that time, and certainly during the last few years, Ireland has said that England has been doing wrong. Who is to decide between the two? Even now, at the last moment, the Prime Minister comes forward and says that Ireland has been right and England wrong. That is not what he said a few years ago. I have heard him in this very House say that he was pursuing the path of justice, and that in the end what was just would prevail. [Mr. W. E. GLADSTONE: Hear, hear!] I am glad the right hon. Gentleman agrees to that. But has it turned out so? Has the path which the right hon. Gentleman has pursued pacified Ireland; if so, what is the meaning of this Bill? Upon that ground, and upon these two points, I object to the Bill as an Irishman; but, as an Ulster man, I have a special objection to it. I have a special objection to the inclusion of Ulster in the Bill. Whether, in the result, the Prime Minister has determined to include Ulster or not I do not know. As far as I could gather from his speech when he introduced the Bill, he left somewhat uncertain the question whether or not Ulster is to be included; but the recent utterances of the Treasury Bench lead me to the conclusion that the Bill is to include Ulster. We have heard the subject discussed with rather a light heart by my hon. and learned

  555
  Friend the Attorney General, who has said that he is an Ulster man himself—and so he is, and in Ulster we are very proud of him, and whether we agree with him in political views or not we are all delighted at the success which he has obtained at the English Bar and in this House; but there is one thing for which I do pity the Attorney General, and it is this—that in ignorance of this Bill and of the blessing which it will confer upon Ireland, and upon Ulster in particular, he should have transferred his home and his fortunes to England. That is an error which I am sure the hon. and learned Attorney General will be anxious to repair; and if this Bill were to pass I think the only difficulty the hon. and learned Gentleman would have would arise from the profusion of choice at his disposal in selecting a residence in Ireland. I must say, however, that, in the meantime, the opinion of the Attorney General would have had more weight with me had he selected for his home—as I have done—Antrim instead of Surrey. The hon. and learned Gentleman greatly amused the House by reading certain foolish speeches which were delivered by Irishmen at the time of the Disestablishment of the Irish Church. Whether that was worthy of the hon. and learned Gentleman I do not care to inquire; but he read some extracts with great dramatic power, and made very amusing comments upon them. As to threatening to die, that, I am sorry to say, is in Ireland a common form. The Irish Volunteers were always threatening to die in the field; and I can assure the House that the Orangemen have no monopoly whatever of this noble desire for death. The desire is equally common, and, perhaps, even more wholesale, among hon. Members below the Gangway. I find that the hon. Member for North Fermanagh (Mr. W. Redmond) has used the most alarming expressions. The hon. Member has said that he
  "would never raise his voice upon any platform except to proclaim that Constitutional means might fail, and if they did fail it was the duty of every Irishman to look into his heart and see whether he was prepared to do and die under the green flag."
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg the hon. and learned Gentleman's pardon; but I should like to know the date of that speech, in order that I may know whe
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  ther that was the occasion on which I was referring to the doctrine laid down by the noble Lord the Member for South Paddington (Lord Randolph Churchill).
  MR. MACNAGHTEN: I think I can satisfy the hon. Gentleman. The date of the speech was the 24th of May, 1885, which was before the noble Lord had spoken upon the subject; and, therefore, the hon. Member must have been the original.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Then the noble Lord appears to have followed me.
  MR. MACNAGHTEN: It may be that it was in order to prevent such a general catastrophe that the Prime Minister has brought in this Bill. Returning to the speech of my hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General, that hon. and learned Gentleman proceeded to argue that the opposition to the Bill in Ulster was not serious, inasmuch as similar expressions had been used by Ulstermen at the time of the Disestablishment of the Irish Church, and nothing came of them. But, Sir, the two cases are not parallel in the slightest degree. At that time the Presbyterians, who have been justly called the right arm of Protestantism in Ireland, supported the Prime Minister in his proposal for disestablishing the Irish Church. At that time the only persons who felt any deep resentment at the proposal were the members of the Established Church. The Presbyterians, who form the largest body of Protestants in Ireland, either stood aloof or supported the measure, and the Dissenters were altogether indifferent. Now, however, things are entirely changed. Now the Presbyterians of the North of Ireland are united with the members of the Disestablished Church. [Mr. W. E. GLADSTONE dissented.] The right hon. Gentleman shakes his head; but I can assure him that, with some very trifling exceptions, which really are not worth mentioning, the whole Protestant Body of the North of Ireland are united against this measure. Well, I think the consequences may therefore be very serious, and in this way—If this Bill is passed, capital will, undoubtedly, to a very large extent, be withdrawn from Belfast, and a large number of persons will necessarily be thrown out of work; and if those persons

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  feel that their want of employment is due to this measure, and if the whole Protestant Body in that part of Ireland are found to be united, I venture to think that the consequences may be very serious indeed. I do not think that it is consistent with either the highest form of statesmanship, or with good sense, to argue that because nothing followed upon the foolish things which were said under one set of circumstances, therefore nothing would follow upon things said now, when the circumstances are entirely and absolutely different. Those who take the optimist view of the matter have asserted that this measure will not affect Belfast. But are hon. Members aware how it has affected Belfast already? The fear of the passing of this measure has already so affected that city, that trade and business have come to a standstill; no man buys goods unless he sees exactly when and to whom he can sell them; and I have been informed by a gentleman on whom I can entirely rely that the absolute loss, in the depreciation of local securities, has already reached £1,000,000 sterling. Now, I should like to know why Ulster should be included in this measure? It is said that the measure has been brought in because the people of Ireland decline to be bound by laws which come to them with a foreign aspect and in a foreign garb. But the Imperial laws have never worn a foreign garb or aspect in the eyes of the people of Ulster; whereas, if our laws are to be made by the Nationalist Party in Dublin, they will most certainly come in a foreign garb and aspect to us. Belfast has nothing in common with Dublin. Belfast is bound up with Liverpool and the thriving Lancashire towns, and also with Glasgow; but with Dublin it has little or no concern. Now, there is one thing which has rather pleased me in the course of this debate, and that is that hon. Members below the Gangway are beginning to disparage us very much. They say that Ulster is neither prosperous nor well-conducted; that Belfast has not increased since the Union; and that, in point of fact, they can get on well without us. Then why do they want to include us in this measure? Somebody has said that the sober common sense with which we are sometimes credited might be of use; but the hon. and learned Member for
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  South Londonderry (Mr. T. M. Healy) has, I think, disposed entirely of that argument. I heard him the other night challenge comparison between the Members who sit on those Benches and the Conservative Members for Ireland; and I am bound to say, with the unanimous applause of those who sit beside him, he decided the issue entirely in his own favour. I am not going to quarrel with the hon. and learned Member for that; I should be very sorry to place myself in any comparison with him. I am very glad to find that even that reason for the Bill has been cut away. We have, certainly, the gravest apprehensions, and are those apprehensions without foundation? In the first place, I should like to know what the Government are going to do with the Land Bill, which they say is an inseparable part of this measure? I can only make a passing allusion to it. As it is referred to in the Bill I suppose I may say one word about it. Now, the Members of the Government who have spoken upon that subject are Lord Spencer, Lord Ripon, and the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant, and what they say is remarkable. Lord Spencer says that all the Members of the Cabinet are agreed upon it, and that it was a mistake to suppose that he had any peculiarly strong views upon the subject himself. The noble Lord said further that for the peace of Ireland, for the good government of Ireland, this question must be settled by the Imperial Parliament, and not left to the new Body; that it would be too great a strain upon them; that it is too enormous a burden to throw upon the legislation of a young and untried Legislature that will have enormous difficulties of its own to cope with. Lord Spencer added—"There will be no peace in Ireland if the Land Question is not settled." After that declaration—that there will be no peace till the Land Question is settled—are you going to leave that question out? If these views of the Government are correct, are there not some grounds of apprehension? Then there is another matter, and I think a very serious matter to all persons who have property, and to all persons who are engaged in business, and that is the way in which the Government have dealt with the Judges of Ireland. Certainly, this is the oddest

  559
  thing I ever came across. The Prime Minister said—
  "Some of these Judges, by no fault of their own, have been placed in relations more or less uneasy, with peculiar influences, and what, under the new Constitution, will in all probability be the dominating influence in that country."
  And then the proposal is made for hustling the Judges out of the country. That proposal is so grotesque and so extraordinary that, for my part, I may be pardoned for thinking the Prime Minister was not serious about it. My own mind turned to a Chief Justice who, in Shakespere, had placed himself in uneasy relations with the coming Sovereign; and I could not help thinking that this was a piece of by-play arranged between the Prime Minister and his new allies for the purpose of inaugurating this new era of peace and conciliation with proper dramatic effect. The Prime Minister's words, speaking on behalf of his Parnellite allies, are almost a copy of the wards used in regard to the Chief Justice to whom I have alluded—
  What! rate, rebuke, and roughly sent to prison
  The immediate heir of Ireland! Was this easy?
  May this be wash'd in Lethe, and forgotten?"
  And then I thought the hon. Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell), or, perhaps, the hon. and learned Member for South Londonderry (Mr. T. M. Healy), would take up his part, and would consider what these Judges had really done, and would be able to say—
  "You are right;
  Therefore still bear the balance and the sword.
  With this remembrance,—that you use the same
  With the like bold, just, and impartial spirit,
  As you have done 'gainst us."
  If the hon. and learned Member had taken up the Prime Minister's challenge in that spirit he might have gone on to say they had come—
  "To mock the expectation of the world;
  To frustrate prophecies; and to raze out
  Rotten opinion, who hath writ us down
  After my seeming."
  But the hon. and learned Member was not equal to the occasion. The hon. and learned Member the other day received the Prime Minister into his favour as a father welcomes back a prodigal son.
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  He greeted him with the homage of lips unaccustomed to flatter and the choicest passages of the Hebrew Prophets. He has forgiven the people of England centuries of wrong; but the hon. and learned Member draws the line at the Irish Judges. He has no forgiveness for them.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: I did not say a word about them.
  MR. MACNAGHTEN: I beg the hon. and learned Member's pardon. I am in the recollection of the House. I heard him—and I heard him with deep regret—only the other night, refer in very uncomplimentary terms to Mr. Justice Lawson, and I must say that I was much surprised that no Member of the Treasury Bench rose to repudiate the hon. and learned Member's allegations. I know that Mr. Justice Lawson is a good lawyer, and I believe him to be an honest and upright Judge. I do say that it is a very alarming thing to us that the Judges of Ireland, in whom we have confidence, and who have acted fairly, justly, and impartially, although they may have given offence to some persons in the exercise of their duty, should be replaced by a completely new set of officials open to new influences. Passing from that, we are told that we ought to trust the Irish people. Well, I would trust them as far as a man may. It is said that a sense of responsibility will make them just and considerate, and endow them with every virtue under Heaven. I should have more confidence in the success of the experiment if those who recommend it were themselves about to undergo it. And I must say, also, that I should have more confidence in its success if it could be proved that in any one single instance—I do not say they have not—if it could be proved that in any one single instance up to the present time hon. Members below the Gangway had interfered to suppress outrage and "Boycotting." I do not say that they have not done so; but there is no proof that they have. I can understand that, when their power was growing, it might have been too much to hope that they would interfere to suppress and put down and destroy that which was the very source of their power; but why did they not interfere when their power was established? There is one case which has created a very pain-

  561
  ful feeling in the North of Ireland—that of the City of Cork Steam Packet Company. The "Boycotting" of that Company is one of the most alarming incidents, so far as trade and commerce are concerned, that has occurred in recent years. The war—if I may call it war—with that Company began on October 7, when the power of hon. Members below the Gangway was completely established; and no one could doubt that they were about to come back to this House with at least 80 or 90 Members. They might then have interfered; and I am sure that the slightest word from them would have stopped the outrage at the outset. The Steam Packet Company were subject to the laws which regulate the rights and duties of common carriers, and were bound to convey anybody's goods. Unfortunately for themselves, they carried the goods of some persons who had made themselves obnoxious to the National League. [Mr. T. M. HEALY: HOW?] The hon. and learned Member asks me how. I did not try the case. Let the hon. and learned Member, who is in the secrets of that Court, say how it was that the Company gave offence to the National League.
  MR. PYNE: I rise to Order. I wish to know whether the hon. and learned Member is in Order in saying that the Company, in which I am a shareholder—namely, the Cattle Association—had not the right, as well as any other trading Association, to start a Company to carry cattle if they so desire?
  MR. MACNAGHTEN: I think the hon. Member is a little mixed. Whether the hon. Member belongs to the Company that was "Boycotted," or to the Company started with the object of ruining it, I do not know. I do not wish to go further into the case than to say that the fact remains that the Cork Steam Packet Company were "Boycotted," and that their trade was ruined through the influence of the National League. Then what did they do? They employed their vessels to carry coals. But the National League sent out bands of music to the wharves, and forbade the landing of the cargoes. A peace has now been patched up, but upon what terms? For two months the Cork Steam Packet Company have to carry free cargoes for the persons who
  562
  have done their best to ruin them, and then at half rates for two months more.
  MR. T. C. HARRINGTON: Perhaps the hon. and learned Member will allow me to interrupt him. [Cries of "Order!"] I wish to say that for the last three or four years I have been intimately associated with the National League as its Secretary, and I never had a word to say as to the dispute between the cattle trade and the Cork Steam Packet Company. It was purely a question between the Cattle Trade Association and the Cork Steam Packet Company. The National League never interfered in the matter.
  MR. MACNAGHTEN: If the National League never interfered actively, these things were done under its cover and sanction. ["No, no!"] Then, am I to understand that things have come to this pass in Cork, that, even where the League does not interfere, persons are afraid to carry on their legitimate business? Sir, I will pass from that. I have said nothing about the religious question involved, and I desire to say nothing on that subject; but, as everybody knows, there is a strong feeling in Ulster. It may be wholly unfounded. Perhaps the Catholics never did persecute; but I say there is a strong feeling on the subject in Ulster, and I do not think it can be entirely disregarded, and especially when we bear in mind that this Bill is founded on sentiment and sentiment only. Is it too much to expect that you should pay some regard to the feelings of the people of Ulster, even though they be sentimental, and not founded on good reasons as you think? There is one other argument, and only one, to which I will refer. It is said that we ought to have faith, and that we ought to have confidence in the declarations of public men. One hon. Member said—and said, I have no doubt, with truth—that the words which the hon. and learned Member for South Londonderry used on a late occasion came from the heart. I do not doubt it for a moment. I am not questioning the sincerity of hon. Members below the Gangway. I give them absolute credit for sincerity; but I am bound to say—and I say it with something like shame—that recent events in this country have done a great deal to shake confidence in the permanence of the declarations of public men. I am not going into particular cases;

  563
  but I am perfectly certain that, in their own hearts, both the Secretary of State for War and the Chancellor of the Exchequer will agree with me. I am deeply obliged to the House for the kindness and attention with which it has listened to me, and I have only one or two words more to say. I would ask hon. Members now, before this Bill passes, to look forward and to consider what may happen supposing that it does pass. What will be the first thing that will occur in Ireland? Why, it will be welcomed with extravagant joy. There will be a delirium of excitement; and the humblest Member who may have assisted in passing it will be welcomed with the homage denied to the Heir to the Throne. What will be the next thing? After that will come the distribution of the spoil; and the spoil will be greater than any spoil that was ever at the disposal of the Executive of any civilized country at one and the same time. To the victors, of course, the spoil will belong. Next, after that, will be a measure to provide for the payment of Members—I do not say that that would not be perfectly proper—and then the trade of the politician and the vocation of the patriot will be the most lucrative profession in Ireland. Well, you cannot get on in a profession if you sit still and do nothing. And these new patriots—I am quite satisfied the old ones will do nothing of the kind—but these new patriots will take Grattan's advice—and who can blame them?—they will go on, as Grattan said, knocking at the Union, or so much of the Union as is left, and they will recall all the wild and extravagant words used by hon. Members below the Gangway and their supporters during the last few years. They will recall those expressions I mentioned just now about fixing the boundary to the march of a nation, and dying under the green flag. They will begin by asking if these Gentlemen have acted on those principles, and if they have really given them Grattan's Parliament, and then there will come something like discontent; people will be surprised that credit does not grow up in one night like Aladdin's palace, and that trade has not revived as a matter of course. Then there may come a famine; famines recur in Ireland. Then there will be disturbances, rash words, and rash deeds.
  564
  Then, possibly, the Chancellor of the Exchequer may interfere; but I think the end will be less tragic and more commonplace. I think the new Irish Constitution may end in universal bankruptcy and a regular smash. This is what you ask us—what the prosperous, law-abiding, and hard-working people of Ulster are asked to take part in—I assure you they desire nothing but to be left alone. You will not let us alone—is it too late to appeal to the common sense of the people, and to the teachings of history? Sir, I think it is not. We appeal to Scotland, and we appeal to England. Already one Scotch Member has given a response, and has in manly and eloquent terms declared that Scotland, Presbyterian Scotland, will never coerce Ulster men who are united to them in blood and religion. And, Sir, I do not despair of England. I trust the people of England—I trust the democracy of England. Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
  MR. DWYER GRAY: I am astonished that the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim (Mr. Macnaghten) in his speech, which otherwise, so far as we are concerned, was of an inoffensive character, should have thought it necessary to introduce into it the suggestion that we are advocating this measure for the sake of procuring payment for the Irish Members in the new Legislative Body. I take it that if we are actuated by any motive of that kind it would be a very much better speculation for us to remain where we are; because I imagine the question of the payment of Members is likely to arise as speedily in the Imperial Parliament as it is in an Irish Parliament, and the remuneration here is likely to be of a very much more substantial character. The hon. Member alluded to the speech of the hon. and learned Attorney General, and while paying to the hon. and learned Gentleman a tribute of praise, he expressed a hope that he would transfer his services and his residence to Ireland when the new Legislative Body is established; but, at the same time, to a certain extent, he sneered at what he called the lightness and levity with which he said the hon. and learned Attorney General had treated a serious subject. Perhaps I may be permitted to remind the hon. and learned

  565
  Gentleman, who himself occupies a distinguished position at the English Chancery Bar, that he can also transfer his exceedingly valuable services to the Irish Bar, when this change shall have been accomplished, and then the levity and light-heartedness of the hon. and learned Attorney General will be counterbalanced and prevented from assuming an undue preponderance by the solidity of the hon. and learned Gentleman who has just addressed the House. The hon. and learned Member has alluded to the Cork cattle trade dispute, and he has led the House to believe that the action of the Cork Cattle Association was instigated by the National League. Now, I think the hon. Member ought to have endeavoured to make himself master of the facts before he made a statement calculated to prejudice the National League, and a large number of Irish Members connected with that organization in the eyes of the House. The fact is that the dispute was of a purely local character. The National League not only had nothing to do with it, but refused to have anything to do with it. It was essentially a trade dispute, carried on with vigour on both sides; but not stained by any of those excesses which frequently accompany trade disputes both in England and Scotland. It was a dispute between those interested in the regular cattle trade on the one hand, and those who had endeavoured to set up a trade competition to the detriment of that trade on the other, and after a struggle of a few months an amicable compromise was arrived at, not on account of extreme compulsion on either side, but a compromise brought about by mutual friends, and arranged to the mutual satisfaction of all concerned. If that is the most formidable accusation the hon. and learned Member has to make against the popular organization in Ireland, and if that is his sole ground for apprehending that, by this Bill, trade will be destroyed in Ireland, and that there will be general bankruptcy and a universal smash, then I think all sensible men will say that there is very little ground for the exaggerated fears the hon. and learned Member has expressed—fears which I venture to think in his own secret heart he does not entertain. These accusations against the popular Party in Ireland, of their desire to destroy trade in Ireland, and drag down
  566
  commercial enterprize, are not at all confined to the hon. and learned Member. I am glad to see the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Goschen) in his place, and I would scarcely have ventured to intervene in this debate if it were not that I desired to reply to an attack made by the right hon. Gentleman upon me in his speech on the first reading of this Bill. The right hon. Gentleman in that speech quoted an extract—an extract which I venture to say did not convey the true meaning of the article, but which, no doubt, was supplied to him probably by the agents of the Loyal and Patriotic Union—he quoted an extract from an article in a newspaper owned by me, The Morning News, published in Belfast—and he pointedly alluded to the fact that it was owned by me—which contained a suggestion inimical to the linen trade. That extract struck the House as being very extraordinary in a newspaper owned by me. I did not exactly recollect at the moment what that article could be, or how it could have got into any newspaper over which I had any control. I have since looked into the facts, and if the right hon. Gentleman desires to verify my statement, and wishes to allude to the subject in his speech, which I think I am almost entitled to ask him to do, I will forward him the series of articles on which he can form his judgment. In 1884 the linen trade of Ulster was in a state of extreme depression, and the Ulster Association, which represents all the manufacturing industry in flax in the North of Ireland, published a very lugubrious Report, pointing out the extreme depression of trade, and the fact that the area of flax under cultivation had been falling off from year to year, until it had reached a very low point indeed compared with what it was 10 or 20 years before. It had decreased from 380,000 acres in 1864 to something like 80,000 acres in 1884. I read the Report, and I was greatly struck with the figures it contained, and also with the fact that many of the flax mills were closed; that many limited companies had ceased to pay any dividends; and that their shares had ceased to be marketable, and were only quoted at nominal figures, although the shares were fully paid up. I was also struck by the fact that many of the gentlemen who had

  567
  been interested in the flax trade had failed, and that their mills were closed. I thought it was a good thing to investigate for my newspaper the cause of this lamentable condition of affairs. I asked a gentleman interested in the linen trade of Belfast, whose sole means of livelihood was the linen trade, who was, 20 or 25 years ago, engaged in the trade, and who was extremely competent to deal with the subject, to write a series of articles in The Belfast Morning News on The Decline in the Linen Trade: Its Cause and its Remedy. These articles were not intended to depreciate the linen trade, but were rather an independent attempt to investigate the causes which have led to the depression in the trade, and to make suggestions which might help towards its revival. These articles were written in a very independent tone, which may have been liable to misinterpretation. The article to which the right hon. Member referred was an allusion made by the writer to a speech made by a gentleman in America regarding the fact that the Belfast merchants had "Boycotted" the Dublin Exhibition, and what an effect it might have on the resuscitation of the linen trade and on public opinion, and more especially on Irish public opinion. He warned the people of Belfast that such narrow-minded conduct was not calculated to enlist Irish support in America. I am speaking in the presence of many hon. Gentlemen in whose faces I saw indignation when the quotation was read. These are, however, the facts of the case. The article excited a certain amount of controversy, and did good. I venture to say that if the right hon. Gentleman will peruse the whole series of articles, which I will forward to him, I am sure, with that spirit of justice and impartiality which is his great characteristic, he will withdraw or qualify the most injurious suggestions he made, doubtless because he had only received a garbled extract from a long series of articles. The right hon. Gentleman staked his great authority in this House upon the financial aspect, founded, no doubt, on certain figures supplied to him, I presume, from the same tainted source. [Mr. GOSCHEN: No.] The right hon. Gentleman says "No." That only makes the matter worse; because, if he knew the whole of the facts, he only quoted a
  568
  portion of them, and quoted figures calculated to mislead the House. Some of the figures may have been mentioned before in this debate; but in view of the emphasis which has been placed on the question of Ulster by the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim (Mr. Macnaghten) it is important to go into them again, and I crave the indulgence of the House while I do so. The right hon. Gentleman said that if Ulster were separated from the rest of Ireland, Ireland would be unable financially to carry on the work of Government. To prove this, he took Schedule D of the Income Tax, which deals alone with trade profit and professions. He compared, on that single Schedule, Ulster with the remainder of Ireland; but he said that from that calculation of the income from trades and professions the City of Dublin, the capital of Ireland, must be excluded. Upon that extraordinary calculation, he arrived at the conclusion that the Nationalist portion of Ulster only contributes some £300,000 under Schedule D of the Income Tax, while the non-Nationalist portion of Ulster contributes £2,500,000, I think. But will the right hon. Gentleman be astonished to hear that of that £2,500,000 he attributes to the non-Nationalist part of Ulster £2,100,000 comes from the town of Belfast. Therefore, if you exclude Dublin on the one hand, and Belfast on the other, this enormous preponderance under Schedule D disappears at once. Surely it is the merest folly to take the one great town in the South out of the calculation of the Income Tax derived from trades and professions, and to leave in the great town in the North, and then compare the two. There is a much fairer method of calculating the matter, and I will ask the House to consider it for a moment. I have taken the assessment for the Income Tax in an agricultural county not under the single Schedule of trades and professions, but under the whole four Schedules into which Income Tax is divided; and the result of that is that in the three Southern Provinces the assessment is £24,000,000, while in the Northern Province it is only £9,900,000. That is a very different comparison indeed from that which was made by the right hon. Gentleman; and I trust that when he comes to deal in his speech with the question of Ulster again, he will take

  569
  some general statistics which will give him a fair notion of the comparative wealth of the different portions of the country, and that he will not take one particular Schedule, leaving out one portion of the trades and professions of the country and including another, by which means it is only possible to arrive at an erroneous conclusion. Now, the Income Tax per head for Leinster is £10 6s. 9d.; while in Ulster it is only £5 14 s. 5d. per head. That gives a very different notion of the comparative wealth of the North and South from that given by the right hon. Gentleman. But even in despised Munster it is £6 0s. 7d. per head, as against £5 14 s. 5d.; and these figures prove where the wealth, as well as the intelligence, of the country is concentrated. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Border Burghs (Mr. Trevelyan) procured a Return of the rateable value of property in Ireland, and this affords a fair criterion also. The result is exactly the same. Leinster stands valued at the rate of £3 13 s. 5d. per head of the population; Munster £2 10 s. 10 d.; Ulster £2 9s. 11 d.; and Connaught £1 15 s. 2d.—that is to say, that Ulster stands lower than either Leinster or Munster. It is constantly dinned into our ears that Ulster is wealthy and prosperous, and that we represent the three impoverished Provinces, and want to seize upon Ulster because she is prosperous. But, as a matter of fact, so far as the rateable valuation is concerned, only one of the four Provinces stands lower than Ulster, and that is Connaught. The other two are rated at a higher figure. So that in neither the assessment for Income Tax, nor in the valuation for rateable property, does any Ulster county stand amongst the first 14 in Ireland. Therefore, no hon. Gentleman will, I think, venture to cite facts to bear out the assertion that it is because the other parts of Ireland are so impoverished and Ulster so prosperous that we want to have a central authority, instead of having the country cut up into districts. The Income Tax in Leinster, excluding Dublin, is £7 16 s. 6d.; while if yon leave Belfast out of the calculation for Ulster the valuation is only £5 1s. 0d. Turn the figures as you please, if you take them fairly you will find that the views so persistently put forward are fallacious. It will be found that Ulster
  570
  does not occupy anything approaching the position of supremacy claimed for it by its friends. Another test by which the comparative wealth and prosperity of Ulster and the other portions of Ireland may be ascertained is the test of emigration. Emigration is the index of poverty and of discontent; and yet, as proved by the figures for 10 years, will the House be astonished to learn that emigration from Ulster has been higher than from any other part of Ireland? In 10 years down to 1881 the emigration from Ulster was 5·38 of the population; Munster, 5·26; Leinster, 4·68; and Connaught, 3·59. Thus the emigration from Ulster was not very far from double what it was from Connaught. I take it that there are fair methods of seeing if Ulster is contented and prosperous; but hon. Gentlemen who are always proclaiming the wealth, contentment, and loyalty of Ulster, never adduce facts and figures. I should like to know what right the hon. and learned Member for Antrim has to speak on behalf of Ulster at all? Hon. Members above the Gangway speak of themselves as Ulster Members; but why do not these Members remind the House that they are a minority even from Ulster? If the representation from Ulster is divided between the Nationalists and the so-called Loyalists, it will be found that the real Loyalists—the Nationalists—are in a considerable majority—a majority of some 20 or 25, and quite sufficient to constitute a working majority in regard to the Business of this House. Is it not astounding—I do not wish to be offensive—but is it not something approaching to impudence for hon. Members from what is called the "Imperial and Loyalist Province," although in a minority, to be perpetually telling us what Ulster will do and what Ulster thinks? If the House wants to know what Ulster will do and think, they will have to turn to these Benches to know, for we are the majority, expressing the Constitutionally-expressed opinion of Ulster. We are perpetually reminded of what the Protestants of Ulster will do, and what they will not do; of what yoke they will submit to, and what steps they will take to resist the edicts of this House by force of arms. They are continually speaking of Protestant Ulster as if Ulster is Protestant as a whole. The right hon. Gentleman the Member

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  for West Birmingham (Mr. J. Chamberlain) seems always to have fixed in his head the notion that Ulster is essentially Protestant, and he is much concerned to defend Protestant Ulster against being put under the yoke of the Catholics. He was not always so concerned for them. It is worth while to examine with a little care the pretensions of Ulster to be called Protestant Ulster, and to see how little right there is to that claim. As a matter of fact, the Catholics of Ulster enormously outnumber any denomination of Protestants in Ulster; and it is only by combining the other denominations in Ulster that you can secure a small percentage of Protestants over the Catholics. Even with all these denominations—Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Unitarians, Independents, Moravians, and Jews—and bulking them as one, you only get 52 per cent of non-Catholics who are not homogeneous in any sense, and 48 per cent of Catholics. It is only in four counties in Ulster, out of nine, that Protestants are in a majority at all. In the majority of the counties of Ulster the Catholics are in a majority in returning Members to this House numerically in five out of nine counties; and when hon. Members, without any justification, speak on behalf of Ulster, they speak of the four counties of Armagh, Antrim, Down, and Londonderry, because in those counties alone are they in a majority. If you eliminate Belfast, the Catholics are in a majority in the remainder of Ulster over all other denominations combined. I take it that the warlike pronouncement of which we have heard so much, and to which an evening paper devoted five pages the other evening, is not so much to be afraid of, or to alarm hon. Members; but even if there was anything in these warlike sounds, the fact that, take Belfast away, there is a majority of Catholics over Protestants of some 80,000 over every other denomination may make us feel not quite so much alarm. The right hon. and learned Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Plunket), in a speech which he made some time ago in England, said that Ulster, tried by every test of wealth, education, and the comfortable dwellings of the people, would not be found wanting. I have already examined the test of wealth and education; let me try the matter now by the test of
  572
  the dwellings of the people, as we are challenged to do by the right hon. and learned Gentleman. Let me take the case of dwellings of £1 and under—the worst class of hovels to be found—we find in Ulster 152,499; Connaught 105,008; Munster 92,632, and Leinster 85,040—that is to say, that in wealthy Ulster, in regard to which the right hon. and learned Gentleman challenges this test of the dwellings of the people, there are more than one-third of the whole number of the worst class of houses valued at £1 and under, and nearly double as many as in Leinster or Munster, and 50,000 more than in Connaught. Therefore, I am afraid that, taken even by that standard, Ulster has very little to boast of. But let me go from the worst class of houses to those of the very best class—namely, those rated above £12, and what are the facts there? In Leinster there are 18,745; Ulster 11,950; Munster 6,598, and in Connaught 2,452; so that neither tested by the worst nor the best class of houses does Ulster reach that point of perfection which we are continually told she has long ago attained. I therefore hope that hon. Members above the Gangway who may continue this debate will cease to speak either of Ulster as essentially Protestant, or as monopolizing the wealth and intelligence of the country. These figures ought to be a lesson to those who still presume on the ignorance of English public opinion to talk in this manner of what they call "Loyal and Protestant Ulster." The Dublin Evening Mail is the ostensible organ of the Orange Party in Dublin and in the South of Ireland. It is an organ of the strongest and most pronounced Tory principles. It has always fearlessly advocated those principles; but it is not without a certain amount of intelligence, and, on occasions, a certain amount of frankness. Writing, within the last fortnight, of these statistics, which had been published in another Irish newspaper, it deprecated the practice of speaking of Ulster as a single homogeneous Province, and suggested that Ulster ought to be divided into what it says should be "Celtic Ulster" and "British Ulster." It gave a list of the nine Ulster counties, and went on to say—
  "The first four of these counties—that is Down, Antrim, Armagh, and Derry—constitute

  573
  what we call British Ulster; but the title of Derry to that name is precarious."
  Therefore, the Orange Tory organ in Dublin acknowledges that only four of these nine counties have any pretension to be called "British Ulster," and that the title even of one of the four is precarious. The article goes on to say—
  "It is not merely in the interests of abstract truth or of convenience of nomenclature that we wish to discard the notion of Ulster being a homogeneous Province, a political unit, having as good a title as all Ireland to pronounce on its own political destiny. The pretended unity of Ulster is a danger to the cause of British Ulster. The Nationalists have the wit to see this, and are now parading the majority of one which their side obtained in Ulster at the late General Election as an argument for treating Ulster as a whole, and that whole Nationalist."
  That is exactly what the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Mr. J. Chamberlain) wants the House to do. But the Orange organ in Dublin tells us it would be dangerous to do what the right hon. Member for West Birmingham proposes to do. The writer goes on to say—
  "We apprehend that if Mr. Gladstone succeeds in kindling a civil war in Ireland, a good many counties in Ulster will stand in for the College Green Parliament, and their share of whatever plunder is going."
  So that, whenever an appeal is made to the right hon. Gentleman to say what he will do for Ulster, and if he proposes to exclude Ulster from the Bill, the appeal must be made on behalf of three counties only which have a decided claim to be called Protestant; and I should like to know whether the right hon. Gentleman would seriously stand up in this House and propose that 29 counties should be included under one national Representative Body or Council and the three Orange counties left out? If hon. Members above the Gangway will study these figures, I think they will see that they altogether dispose of their right to speak on behalf of Ulster, or to talk of "Protestant Ulster." Not a single Member who has taken part in this debate has attempted to deny these facts, or the natural deductions to be drawn from them. I have many more figures; but I am aware that the reading of dry statistics is very irksome to hon. Members who have to listen to them. I have endeavoured to show that Ulster has no special claim to be called wealthy, as compared with the rest of
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  Ireland, or to be called exclusively or mainly Protestant. But we are told that all the intelligence of Ireland is concentrated in Ulster—that it embodies not only the wealth but the intelligence of Ireland. [An hon. MEMBER: Hear, hear!] An hon. Member says "Hear, hear;" but I will leave the House to judge for itself. It would be most indecorous and presumptuous for me to express any opinion upon that subject, although I may have formed an opinion in my own mind. I will take a more legitimate test, the test of the percentage of persons able to read and write. I do not find that, judged even by that test, Ulster possesses that predominant position in regard to intelligence which is claimed for it, both in and out of this House. The number of persons who can neither read nor write were, according to the last Census Returns, in Leinster 58·5; Ulster 53·4; and Munster, where, of course, all the stupidity and ignorance are concentrated, 53·2, or practically the same as Ulster; and Connaught 41·5. Thus we have the fact that judged by the standard of education, Leinster is higher than Ulster. We have not been much astonished at the attitude taken by the noble Marquess the Member for Rossendale (the Marquess of Hartington). His action has been at least straightforward and open from the beginning. He has been a fair opponent, and we have towards him, although an opponent, nothing but feelings of respect. But I confess the attitude of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Mr. J. Chamberlain) has been a standing puzzle to me for some months. It is a matter of extreme difficulty to ascertain exactly what the opinions of the right hon. Gentleman are on this subject of Ireland on any given day. We know that, in 1874, he was a Home Ruler, and that he was then an advocate of the federal scheme of Mr. Butt; but more recently, in publications which, although not given to the world with his name, yet bear his imprimatur, and which, I think, he will not venture to repudiate, he discussed the system of federation, and had very strong faith in it as a settlement of the Irish Question. [Mr. CHAMBERLAIN dissented.] I see the right hon. Gentleman shakes his head.
  MR. JOSEPH CHAMBERLAIN: If the hon. Gentleman

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  wishes to know why I shook my head I will tell him. I understood him to say that in some article supposed to have my approval, I spoke in favour of federation as a possible solution of the question. I assure him that he is mistaken. In that article I pointed out—in that article it was pointed out—[Laughter and ironical cheers]—hon. Members are really a little too hasty. As I have already stated in this House, that article was not written by me; but in that article, the general lines of which I am ready to say I approved, it was stated that federation would be a solution quite consistent with the unity of the Empire, and the attribution of large powers of local government to Ireland; but it was pointed out that it would involve so great a disturbance of the English Constitution that at that time it was outside the range of practical politics.
  MR. DWYER GRAY: I understand, then, from the right hon. Gentleman that although he did not write that article, he is willing to take the responsibility for it. [Mr. CHAMBERLAIN dissented.] At all events, the Press of the United Kingdom attributed it to the right hon. Gentleman. When it appeared to be a popular article, and perhaps when it was assumed that it might contain the germ of a solution of the Irish Question, the right hon. Gentleman was perfectly ready to take credit for it. There was not a newspaper in the Kingdom which did not publish a statement that the article was that of the right hon. Gentleman, and contained his plan; and it was published in the Radical programme, which, I believe, the right hon. Gentleman ignores also. Am I also to understand that the right hon. Gentleman repudiates the second article in The Fortnightly Review? I take the silence of the right hon. Gentleman with reference to the second article as his assent to my assumption that he is, at least, responsible for the second article. In the second article occurs this sentence—
  "In the first place, there is the proposal for National Councils, which was put forward with the authority of Mr. Chamberlain in the pages of this Review, July, 1885."
  So now we have this condition of affairs—that in 1885 the article was published with the authority of the right hon. Gentleman.
  MR. JOSEPH CHAMBERLAIN: The statement that the proposal for National Councils was put forward with my authority is perfectly correct; but that does not make me responsible for the whole of the article, which was not written by me.
  MR. DWYER GRAY: The House will understand the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman. But we are in this position. The article was published in July, 1885, which contained a scheme for the solution of the Irish Question; every newspaper attributed it, if not to the pen, at least to the inspiration, of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham; during 18 months the right hon. Gentleman took every credit for that article; he never, in speech, or paper, or by any other means, denied that he was responsible for that article. He was responsible for an article published this year in the same magazine; the article published this year stated that the article of the previous year was published on the authority of Mr. Chamberlain. The right hon. Gentleman never denied that; but now he comes forward and says he is not responsible for it. The right hon. Gentleman, who has no difficulty in writing contradictions to the Press when it suits him, was in this case unable to write a letter of two lines to remove the belief, which we are now told is a misapprehension, that he was responsible for the article of last year containing a scheme for the solution of the Irish Question. I do not wonder that the right hon. Gentleman is willing to shift from himself a portion of the scheme of the article of July, 1885, because one of the strongest objections which he has to the scheme of the Prime Minister is on account of the two Orders, and the dual system of representation. The right hon. Gentleman alleged that this was not sufficiently Radical for him—it contains the principles of representation of property, and of the two Orders—but in the scheme of July, 1885, these principles were embodied. Whoever the mysterious and undiscoverable author of the article of July, 1885, was, he proposes that upon the County Boards there should be representatives of owners of property distinct from, and elected in a different manner from, the representatives of occupiers; and he

  577
  proposed to carry on that dual system. Thus we have embodied in the scheme the principle of the two Orders, which we are now told is sufficiently Radical to be in the Radical programme. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will tell us when he makes his speech, which we are all looking forward to with so much interest, what is his present opinion upon this question of dual representation, and whether he withdraws now from that portion of the scheme in the article which he does not deny is his own, and which The Fortnightly Review referred to as being published last year on the authority of Mr. Chamberlain. Now the right hon. Gentleman interrupted me to say that in the authorized document of this year, in contradistinction from the unauthorized programme of last year, when he was criticizing the various proposals, including that of National Councils, he was not opposed to the principle of federalism, and that he thought there might be in it the foundation of a system which would grant to Ireland sufficient rights of self-government, while maintaining the unity of the Empire. I have nothing to say against the system of federalism; no one, however, has grappled with the argument of the Prime Minister, or has shown how the objections which the right hon. Gentleman urged against that scheme are to be met. But in view of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham has no objection to federalism, and that he thought that in it might be found a solution of the Irish difficulty, it is a matter of some interest to know how he asserts that the principle of federalism would work. I do not know what are the opinions of the right hon. Gentleman upon the question of a Republic; but there was a time when he professed Republican principles. He has not, as far as I know, publicly repudiated his Republican doctrines; and he may, therefore, be assumed to have still certain Republican leanings or proclivities, modified possibly, to a certain extent, by the oath he has since taken; but, as I have said, he has never publicly withdrawn, or in any way repudiated, the notions of a Republican form of Government, of which, for years, he declared himself to be the advocate. Now, the article of this year shows the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman as to
  578
  how the system of federalism would I work. I will quote one sentence from it, which is very significant in face of the determination which he has announced to vote against this Bill, as showing the opinions which he held at that time, whether they were or were not acceptable to the people of Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman said in the article in The Fortnightly Review of February, 1886—
  "It would be useless to impose benefits which would be scornfully rejected by those for whose advantage they were intended. Once more, in the history of Irish politics, we have to register the verdict—'Too late.'"
  I take it that the right hon. Gentleman is going to do his best next Thursday, or when the division is taken, to register another verdict of the kind. But the chief point to which I desire to direct the attention of the House is the way in which the system of federalism would work out. The right hon. Gentleman said it should be adopted not only with reference to Ireland, but with reference to the rest of the Kingdom; he suggested two Legislatures, one for the three Southern Provinces of Ireland and one for Ulster; he went on to suggest that there might be similar Legislative Bodies for England, Scotland, Wales, and the Isle of Man—at any rate, he made out there would be six Legislative Bodies. The article says—
  "There would be, therefore, six Legislatures, each with its separate Ministry, and it may be assumed with a single Chamber."
  In this, perhaps, some Radicals may find a solution of the most extraordinary attitude which the right hon. Gentleman has taken up; it may be that he is far more Radical, and that his schemes are more far-reaching, than anyone has an idea of. "In any case," he goes on to say, "the House of Lords, as at present constituted, must be abolished." I commend that to the noble Marquess the Member for Rossendale, who has recently entered into an offensive and defensive alliance with the right hon. Gentleman, who, in former times, scarcely spoke of him with so much confidence as at present—
  "And it is hardly conceivable that even the nominal authority of the Crown could be long preserved."
  That is the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman as to the ultimate effect of a scheme of federation, and in that, he

  579
  says, alone is be found the solution of the Irish Question. I think I am not wrong in saying that the right hon. Gentleman, with regard to the question of Republic versus Monarchy, is true to the principles of his earlier days, and that he has declared publicly that the Crown ought to be abolished—perhaps with the substitution of the right hon. Gentleman as Lord Protector. I do not know whether, following the example of Cromwell, he would propose to have hereditary succession—it is not perfectly clear—but I have shown that so recently as February last he declared that the ultimate effect of the federal scheme would be to abolish even the nominal authority of the Crown; and I presume that to-morrow, or next day, he will come here and give us his reasons for advocating the federal scheme in opposition to the scheme of the Prime Minister. The right hon. Gentleman goes on to say—
  "The scheme, in fact, involves the absolute destruction of the historical Constitution of the United Kingdom, the creation of a tabula rasa, and the establishment thereupon of the United States Constitution in all its details. It may be that such a proposal would not be seriously objected to by consistent Radicals."
  We do not go so far—
  "And it is probable that it would work without friction, and preserve a real union of the Empire—"
  observe, without the Crown—
  "for defensive and offensive purposes; but it is hardly conceivable that the people of Great Britain, as a whole, are prepared for such a violent and complete revolution."
  Well, Sir, I do not think they are, and I do not think that the 40 individuals who, to-day, renewed their allegiance to the right hon. Gentleman in the Committee Room upstairs quite understand that the right hon. Gentleman's proposals mean nothing else than the super-session of the Crown. It is extremely difficult to follow the windings of the career of the right hon. Gentleman for the last few months. In the same article he declares his adhesion to the scheme attributed to Mr. Giffen for the settlement of the Land Question, his only objection being that the payment to the landlords would be too high, and might make too large a demand on the credit of the country. But far, from deprecating in February last the dealing on a gigantic scale with the Land Question,
  580
  the right hon. Gentleman uses these words—
  "Materials exist for a great transaction without risk or taxation which would place the Irish people in the possession of the land of their birth."
  The article goes on to point out that it involved a large payment to the landlords, and represented—
  "A capital sum which affords a basis for an immense operation."
  Nothing less than an immense operation would satisfy the right hon. Gentleman in February last; but now he says he will not allow the British taxpayer to be pledged "in the way of land purchase." So, in February last, if he, and not someone else, had the manipulation of the scheme, the right hon. Gentleman was, in the first place, prepared for a scheme of Republicanism which he foresaw would result in the overthrow of the Crown, and, in the next place, was ready to pledge the taxpayers of the country for an immense sum. But the right hon. Gentleman must deal with the Irish Question as a whole; and he goes on to say that the claims of the whole of the 600,000 cultivating tenants of Ireland would be entitled to serious consideration, and would not be lightly rejected. Now, we have been greatly puzzled to know what scheme the right hon. Gentleman has at present; but I think it would be still more interesting if, when he speaks on the question now before the House, he will give us a little more information as to his scheme of last February, and how it is that he so strongly objects to the Prime Minister's touching even a portion of it. But, Sir, if it is difficult to understand the attitude of the right hon. Gentleman, it is impossible to understand that of the noble Lord the Member for South Paddington (Lord Randolph Churchill). I do not intend to try to explain the gyrations of the noble Lord; but I have some information as to the course adopted by the noble Lord in reference to the last Election which may be of some slight interest to the House. Speaking at Birmingham he said, on the 23rd of October, during the last Election—
  "It was contempt for Colonial opinion and Colonial aspiration, which more than 100 years ago cost us the loss of our American Colonies."
  But now the noble Lord is urging that the Irish opinion and the Irish aspirations should be treated with contempt.

  581
  In October and November last the opinions of the noble Lord, as far as we can judge, have shown themselves to be of a very different character. Why will he not express now the opinions which he did then? Speaking at St. Stephen's Club, on the 20th of May, 1885, the noble Lord is reported to have said—
  "I believe most firmly that this ought to be the attitude of the Tory Party—that they ought to be anxious and careful beyond measure not to be committed to any act or policy which should unnecessarily wound and injure the feelings and the sentiments of our brothers on the other side of the Channel of St. George."
  The Marquess of Salisbury, speaking in Her Majesty's Theatre the other night, thus alluded to "our brethren on the other side of the Channel of St. George;" he calls them aliens in race in religion and in sentiment. The House will be glad to know whether the noble Lord adheres to the opinion which he announced in Birmingham, or to the opinion of the noble Marquess. But I wish to call the attention of the House to the fact that in the autumn of 1884 there was inaugurated in London, with a considerable amount of splutter, a Limited Liability Company, called by the name of the Conservative News Agency, Limited. The capital of that Company, whether it was paid up or not I cannot tell, was stated at £100,000, and the President of it was Lord Randolph Churchill. There were a good many distinguished Conservative members of the Association, the object of which was thus stated in the prospectus issued at the time, and published in The St. Stephen's Review—it was to "advance Constitutional principles, and especially to prepare voters for the coming General Election." That was published in July—the object of the Association being also to supply Provincial newspapers, scattered throughout the entire of the United Kingdom, with information of interest to the Conservative Party in articles stereotyped, or in proof. There were some 300 Conservative newspapers associated throughout the United Kingdom which were instructed in true Conservative principles by the noble Lord and his associates with a view to the working of the General Election on the Conservative platform. Well, Sir, this new Association, week after week, issued leading articles, London letters, political and
  582
  social articles of various kinds, and in No. 7 appeared the first of a series of articles on Home Rule by Lady Florence Dixie. Those articles did not advocate a limited Parliament, but advocated the concession of Grattan's Parliament in its entirety; it advocated the restoration of what had existed before. I take an extract from the first of these articles, and their importance does not lie in their ability, which is the characteristic of everything written by Lady Florence Dixie, but in the fact that, with a view to the next General Election, they were circulated broadcast by the noble Lord the Member for South Paddington, for the purpose of educating the electors. The first article contained the following:—
  "Ireland will, and shall, obtain Home Rule. The wild shriekers who formerly cried "never" are now racking their brains to discover how little the Irish will accept.… Home Rule is a Conservative measure. The Irish people ask but to re-establish what has been. They ask, through its instrumentality, to be made contented subjects of the Queen and loyal adherents of the Empire. Nothing to my mind is so revolting as to witness the opposition of Conservatives in Ireland to the National cause. It is a spectacle so unnatural as to cause disgust and resentment; yet I cannot believe that it will last. I am acquainted with many Conservative landlords and Loyalists in Ireland, and I know that the sentiments of many of them are in favour of Home Rule,"
  This article appeared in an enormous number of newspapers throughout the United Kingdom—it appeared in the noble Lord's special organ, The St. Stephen's Review, and was issued in a special sheet to the various newspapers with the compliments of the Association. It was supplied to me, in my capacity of proprietor and conductor of The Freeman's Journal, for publication in that journal. For that occasion only The Freeman's Journal was taken into favour, and was supplied with advanced proofs of the article for publication in Ireland, in order that the Irish people should be made aware of the attitude of the Conservative Leaders, especially the younger Leaders, towards the Irish people. In publishing these articles in The Freeman's Journal, I was very careful to point out that they were supplied by the Conservative News Association and by the noble Lord; and I marked it as a sign of the times, and a hopeful indication of the Conservative attitude, and used it as an argument why Irish voters in England should support the Con-

  583
  servatives at the Elections. How sadly is my confidence in the noble Lord shaken! But, surely, he will scarcely venture to contradict or repudiate his responsibility for the circulation of these articles. Early in September, 1885, I was supplied with another article from the same source, in which the author says—
  "There is no half-way course, and the sooner British statesmen recognize the fact, so much the better."
  She goes on to define a strong policy of concession, and says—
  "Of her own free will, Great Britain should hand back to Ireland the Parliament which she wrested from her in 1800."
  She proceeds to glorify Grattan's Parliament, and tell the history of its overthrow—
  "It is for Great Britain seriously to ask herself whether it is practicable to restore to Ireland her undoubted right to have a Parliament of her own? I firmly believe it is the only policy which will establish friendly relations between Great Britain."
  Lady Florence Dixie goes on to point to the noble Lord himself, who we know is extremely modest, and does not allow compliments to interfere with business—
  "Do I see arising amidst the Conservative ranks a young Leader who is facing the Irish problem, and recognizing the right of the Irish people to govern themselves? Shall it be from Conservative hands that Ireland will receive back her long-lost freedom? Something tells me that it will be so."
  In a further article, just before the Elections in October, the writer argues in support of the practicability of Home Rule. This was also issued in the same way as the others. The writer says—
  "I think a Parliament at College Green is eminently practicable. A day will come when this will be acknowledged. Then why should everything be done too late? Is there no patriot British statesman who will arise and tell his countrymen the truth—who will wipe away this disgraceful stain of injustice, and give Ireland her just rights?
  On November 13, immediately prior to the Election, to keep the system up, and keep the Irish vote true to the Conservative cause, we have this article—
  "Legislative independence far from its proving a source of separation and disintegration, as Mr. Chamberlain and others would have us believe"—
  and now, I may say, we have the tables turned—we have the right hon. Member for West Birmingham going for
  584
  federation, and the noble Lord the Member for Paddington going for I do not know what, but declining to go for Repeal of the Union—
  "as Mr. Chamberlain and others would have us believe, and would insure the true union of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. In this course alone true unity is centred—any other must be productive of disunion and discontent."
  And this Conservative News Agency not only circulated articles from the National League, but from other sources. The St. Stephen's Review of December 19th, 1885, also published an article from Mr. Bellingham, late M.P. for Louth, advocating Home Rule. What are we to think of the position taken up by the young Leaders of the Conservative Party in view of the Election? They established a large organization, subscribed large sums of money, and associated themselves with newspapers in England, Scotland, and Wales by a system of supplying articles to those newspapers, in order to secure that they all should speak with one voice on the question of the day. And this is the class of literature they supplied in order to educate the voters up to the point of Home Rule, or, if not that, to deliberately deceive the Irish voters, and lead them to believe that the young Leaders of the Conservative Party would use their best endeavours to secure for Ireland not only the Repeal of the Union, but Grattan's Parliament, if the Irish vote were cast for the Conservatives. I am glad that I happened to preserve these extracts I have read; it was only through an accident that I did so, for I scarcely, at the time, thought them worth drawing attention to. ["Hear, hear!"] I can understand the right hon. Gentleman saying "Hear, hear!" I can well understand that he would have preferred that I should not draw attention to these extracts. Perhaps he will tell us what the exact position of the Conservative News Agency (Limited) is at this moment, and whether the noble Lord (Lord Randolph Churchill) still occupies the honoured and trusted position of President of the Association. I feel I have already occupied the House too long, and I will say but a very few words in conclusion. We are told by some that by passing this Bill we shall drive capital out of Ireland. I do not believe that we shall do anything of the

  585
  kind. We are told that we shall destroy the industry of the North, and that capital will leave Belfast. Why, Sir, capital at this moment could not leave Belfast. Capital is locked up in Belfast, as everyone who is interested knows, and it is as impossible to realize it now as it has been at any time during the past seven or eight years. There is not a Bank in Ireland that has not large sums locked up in mills in Belfast, and not one-tenth of this capital could be realized in the event of great capitalists endeavouring to transfer their capital from Ireland to England, or other countries. Therefore, these statements as to driving capital from Ireland are all bunkum. It is impossible for capital to leave the North, for the reason that it must hold on to an industry which, I am sorry to say, is in a very depressed condition—and that not in consequence of any agitation which has taken place. The same state of things has existed eight or 10 years in consequence of the undue development of the linen industry during the American War. We are told that capital will leave other parts of Ireland. What capital? What English capital is there in Ireland? I am not aware of any, save one class. If we could procure a Return of the names of the shareholders in Irish Limited Liability Companies, Irish Railway Companies, Irish Insurance Offices, and other industrial enterprizes of every kind, I venture to say that not 5 per cent of them would be found to be English. Not 5 per cent of the capital of Irish industrial enterprizes is held by Englishmen. I was, some three years ago, greatly struck by a speech made by the Chairman of the London and North-Western Railway Company at a meeting of the shareholders of that Company—so struck by it that it has never left my memory. At that time there was a bitter contest going on in regard to the mail contract between Holyhead and Dublin. The Irish Members desired that the contract should be in the hands of an Irish Company; but the London and North-Western had obtained it, and were struggling to maintain it. Well, Mr. Moon, the gentleman to whom I refer, met the shareholders, and made a speech on the subject which I never forgot. He stated that they had more Irish shareholders and a larger amount of Irish capital invested in the London and North-Western
  586
  Railway Company—that English Company—than the whole capital of the City of Dublin Company, which was called an Irish Company. [An hon. MEMBER: Than there was English capital in the Irish Company.] Not at all. There would be nothing at all in the assertion that there was more Irish money in the London and North-Western Railway Company than there was English money in the Irish Company; but he said there was more Irish money invested in the London and North-Western Railway Company than the entire capital of the Irish Company. If we could arrive at the facts carefully by statistics, I have not the slightest doubt that there is at least three or four times the amount of Irish money invested in England that there is English money invested in Ireland, with, as I say, the exception of one single class of investments—namely, advances by way of mortgage on Irish land. We in Ireland can well afford, as far as industrial enterprizes are concerned, to do without English aid. I am not aware that we ever had English aid to any substantial extent. During the period from 1848 to 1865, when Ireland was in a state of perfect tranquillity, when the Viceroy was congratulating the Queen, year after year, on the increase which was taking place in the flocks and herds, and when emigration was going on largely, withdrawing a large part of the poor population, I am not aware that there was any influx of English capital into Ireland. The only investments to any considerable extent of English capital in Ireland are loans upon Irish land; and I think those loans, far from benefiting any section of the community, have proved a curse to the country. They tempted Irish landlords into extravagance; they tempted them to come over here, and vie with men far richer than themselves in display and ostentation. They caused them to get plunged into debt, and the result was that they were induced to put pressure on their tenants, and to raise their rents. This has brought something like ruin upon the Irish landlords and tenants. Why was it that we had this influx of English money in the shape of mortgages on Irish land? Was it from a philanthropic impulse? Nothing of the kind It was simply because any money lender, any Insurance Company, any capitalist with a large sum to dispose of, and not

  587
  knowing what to do with it, could procure from 4½ to 5 per cent on a first-class mortgage on Irish land; whereas only from 3 to 3½ per cent was to be obtained on similar security in England. One and a-half or two per cent more was to be got out of Irish than out of English mortgages. Money was lent on mortgages on Irish land for the same reason that it is lent on mortgage on American land. There was nothing of philanthropy in it, and no desire to promote the interests of Ireland. The only reason was that those who invested got a higher usury; and if these investors suffer now from the condition of things that they themselves have helped to bring about, I do not think there is any section of the House which should feel any particular commiseration for them. The loans they made to the Irish landlords, so far as we are concerned, have been a curse to the country; and this is the only kind of investment of English capital in Ireland that has taken place to any extent that I have the slightest knowledge of. And now I should like just for a moment to consider the commercial effect of the defeat, or even serious postponement, of this Bill. I say its effect will be extremely disastrous. We are told that in consequence of the action of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. J. Chamberlain) and his Friends this Bill is going to be defeated. For my own part, I do not believe these flimsy forecasts; but if the Bill be defeated, I fear that the result upon Ireland will be extremely disastrous. It is a marvellous thing for me to find some Members below the Gangway opposite telling us that they are going to vote against the Bill, not because they share the opinions of Gentlemen above the Gangway, which opinions we can understand and respect, not because of any opposition to the Bill on the principle propounded by the noble Marquess the Member for Rossendale (the Marquess of Hartington), but because they do not think the Bill good enough for us. They desire, they say, to frame a complete measure. I often wonder whether this is a real excuse—whether they really are serious. I think it is, on the part of some of the Leaders of the Party, merely a transparent excuse; that it is an excuse to cover an inveterate hostility, not only to the Bill,
  588
  but to the author of it, and to conceal a feeling of pique, and jealousy, and spleen unworthy of any man, or of any men pretending to be statesmen, dealing with a great question of this kind, affecting the lives, liberties, and happiness of millions of Her Majesty's subjects. I do believe that there are some hon. Members below the Gangway who are really thinking of voting against this Bill because they think it would be injurious to Ireland. I would ask them to consider for a moment what they think would be the effect of the rejection of the measure. I was speaking within the last three or four days to a gentleman practically at the head of one of the greatest—I think we may call it the greatest—commercial institution in Ireland. He looked forward, as all who are aware of the condition of affairs in Ireland do, with something like consternation to the rejection of the Bill. He looked forward with the utmost possible hope and gratification at the prospect of its being speedily passed. The institution he is connected with is probably more intimately bound up with the commercial prosperity of Ireland than any other in the Three Kingdoms, and its managers are probably better able to judge of the commercial effects of a measure of this kind than anyone in Ireland. Well, such was the opinion of this gentleman; but, at the same time, he said he would rather see the Bill rejected than see it mutilated, and he suggested to me to urge on every person who might have influence to urge on the Government, above all things, to maintain the provisions, and rather take all risks than mutilate the measure. Crossing over from Boulogne a week ago, I met an English gentleman at the head of one of the greatest firms in the United Kingdom, which has agencies and branch offices in every great town of England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland. He expressed himself strongly in favour of this measure. I asked him what, in his opinion, would be the effect upon the great business which he carries on in every great town in Ireland? I asked him whether, as an Englishman, he was apprehensive that it would injure his trade in any way, and he said it would have no effect. But what he said was seriously affecting his business, and would probably affect it still more seriously, was the condition of suspense

  589
  and uncertainty into which they were plunged, which checked all kinds of commercial enterprize. That is the position in which some people propose to plunge Ireland for the next 12 months. The Times the other day threatened that the English merchants in Mincing Lane were about to stop our credit, and that if this Bill passed they would supply us with no more tea and sugar, and so on. We could with equanimity bear to be deprived of supplies from Mincing Lane. We could ourselves make up for the deficiency. It is said, however, that that would have the result of dragging down two or three Irish banks. Well, I do not think the action of any merchants in England, or of the whole combined commercial community in England, would affect the stability of a single Irish bank; but the paralysis of trade throughout Ireland and the complete suspension of all but an absolutely necessary amount of business which would follow the rejection of this Bill, and the state of uncertainty in which we should be plunged, would have the most deleterious effect upon business. With some knowledge of the facts, I say that Ireland is not in a position to stand the terrible strain to which she will be subjected in the next six months or 12 months if the Bill be rejected. If hon. Gentlemen opposite go with a light heart into the Division Lobby against the measure, not because of their apprehensions as to the result of the Bill on the United Kingdom, but because, forsooth, they consider themselves better framers of Constitutions, and better able to judge of what the ultimate results of the Bill will be, than the Prime Minister, who has been 50 years in this House, and whose experience is unrivalled, I venture to warn them that possibly they may not be able to regard the results of their handiwork with much satisfaction. I have no apprehension that any outbreak of outrage of a serious character in Ireland will follow the rejection of the Bill. I do not believe anything of the kind. I believe the Irish people are sufficiently politically educated and sufficiently strong to keep their souls in peace; and I await with perfect confidence the result of the struggle, no matter how long it may be protracted. But if the suspension of our Irish legislation results in the landlords resorting
  590
  to eviction, then I warn the House that no coercive legislation, that no power which you possess, that no power that we possess, will be sufficient for the prevention of outrage. It is no use talking to desperate men, thrown out on the roadside, helpless and homeless, of the good intentions of English Members—it is no use telling them they may have this measure 12 years hence, when there is nothing before them but the workhouse. What they want is some immediate relief; and if you refuse this Bill or delay it, and Irish landlords avail themselves as far as they can of the interregnum for purposes of eviction, then I certainly regard the future outlook in Ireland with something approaching to consternation. I do not believe that great as is the influence of hon. Gentlemen around me with the people of Ireland, and loyally as I believe that influence will, under any circumstances, be exerted to check outrage—I do not believe it will be in their power to check it any more than it will be in your power to check it, no matter what course of coercion you adopt. I do appeal to hon. Gentlemen to consider seriously the nature of the step that they are about to take in voting against this measure. The spirit of the Irish people is now such as certainly in my experience, which extends over 15 years, I never saw equalled. This Bill does not meet the entire demands put forward by the Irish nation. It is essentially in the nature of a compromise; but the Irish people are now willing loyally to accept that compromise. I am satisfied they will one and all be ready to stand by it, and carry it out in the spirit and the letter. What they will be prepared to do 12 months hence neither you, Sir, nor I, know. In the words of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham, you may have to inscribe on your annals 12 months hence, when he comes to bring forward his federation scheme, the words you have had to inscribe so often on the records of English rule in Ireland—"Too late."
  Motion made, and Question, "That the Debate be now adjourned,"—(Mr. J. Chamberlain,)—put, and agreed, to.
  Debate further adjourned till To-morrow.

  MEDICAL ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.— [BILL 163.]
  (Sir Lyon Playfair, Mr. Mundella, The Lord Advocate.)

  COMMITTEE. [Progress 17th May.]
  Bill considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Clause 1 (Short title and construction) agreed to.

PART I.

  ADMISSION TO MEDICAL PRACTICE AND CONSTITUTION OF GENERAL COUNCIL.
  Qualifying Examinations.
  Clause 2 (Examination before registration) agreed to.
  Clause 3 (Qualifying examinations held by medical authorities).
  THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Sir LYON PLAYFAIR): I beg to move the Amendment which stands in my name.
  Amendment proposed,
  In page 1, lines 19 and 20, to leave out "for the time being capable of granting any such diploma or diplomas," and insert "or any medical corporation legally qualified at the passing of this Act, to grant such diploma or diplomas in respect of medicine and surgery."—(Sir Lyon Playfair.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  SIR HENRY HOLLAND: This, practically, is only an enlargement of the Amendment I have put on the Paper.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Amendment proposed,
  In page 1, line 23, after "examination," insert "in medicine, surgery, and midwifery, and of whom one at least is capable of granting such diploma as aforesaid in respect of medicine, and one at least is capable of granting such diploma in respect of surgery."—(Sir Lyon Playfair.)
  Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
  DR. O'DOHERTY: I have put upon the Paper several Amendments to this clause; but I was not aware the Bill would be brought on to-night, and therefore I am not quite prepared, to proceed with them. The Bill has been brought on unexpectedly, and therefore I ask the right hon. Gentleman (Sir Lyon Playfair) to postpone the consideration of the clause.
  Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 3, leave out "at," and insert "for."—(Dr. O'Doherty.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'at' stand part of the Clause."
  SIR LYON PLAYFAIR: This, the first Amendment, bears upon all the Amendments the hon. Gentleman suggests. It would be quite impossible to accept these Amendments, because they affect the principle of the Bill. This Bill differs from any of the 22 Bills which have been introduced with the object of reforming the Medical Laws. The qualifying examination will be, I hope, the maximum, and not the minimum; and the Amendments of the hon. Gentleman (Dr. O'Doherty) indicate the minimum standard of education in each part of the Kingdom. I am sorry I cannot agree to them.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 10, leave out "with the sanction of the Privy Council."—(Sir Lyon Playfair.)
  Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 4 (Withdrawal from medical authorities of right to hold qualifying examinations).
  SIR HENRY HOLLAND: The object of this Amendment——
  THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Sir LYON PLAYFAIR): My right hon. Friend (Sir Henry Holland) proposes to amend the clause by a provision that the Privy Council shall not, "of their own motion," have power to revoke an Order. I am obliged to take the wind out of his sails, because I have Amendments, not on the Paper, which relate to a previous part of the clause. I propose to leave out the words in lines 39, 40, and 41—
  "The Privy Council, upon the representation of the General Council, or of their own motion,"
  and to insert in their place—
  "Her Majesty, with the advice of Her Privy Council, if upon further representation of the General Council or otherwise, it seems to Her expedient so to do."
  Amendment proposed,
  In page 2, lines 39, 40, and 41, leave out "the Privy Council, upon the representation of the

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  General Council, or of their own motion," and insert "Her Majesty, with the advice of Her Privy Council, if upon further representation of the General Council or otherwise, it seems to Her expedient so to do."—(Sir Lyon Playfair.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  SIR HENRY HOLLAND: My objection is to the Privy Council having the power of themselves at any time to revoke an Order. The whole point of the section is the power given to the General Council. Why the Privy Council, upon their own motion, shall have power to revoke an Order is a point I do not understand, and it is very much objected to. I therefore intended to move to leave out the words "of their own motion." The Privy Council should certainly have the power to take this action upon the representation of the General Council, but not without it.
  MR. DILLON: The Amendment does not appear on the Paper; perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will explain why he proposes it.
  SIR LYON PLAYFAIR: I am afraid the words I propose are not fairly understood. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir Henry Holland) will find them in the 1st clause of the Act of 1858. The General Council is to move on its own representation. The words are—
  "Her Majesty, with the advice of Her Privy Council, if upon further representation of the General Council or otherwise, it seems to Her expedient so to do."
  First of all, the General Council is to make representation, and it is not upon Her mere motion that Her Majesty revokes the Order, but she does so in Council.
  SIR HENRY HOLLAND: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will explain the words "or otherwise." If he would leave out these words I should be quite prepared to accept the Amendment.
  SIR LYON PLAYFAIR: I cannot do that, because then there would be no appeal. It is right that the Corporation or University from which representation is taken away should have the power of appeal.
  SIR HENRY HOLLAND: Would the right hon. Gentleman have any objection to substitute for "or otherwise" the words "or upon appeal?"
  SIR LYON PLAYFAIR: I will endeavour to meet the wishes of the right hon. Gentleman on Report.
  Question put, and negatived.
  Question,
  "That the words, 'Her Majesty, with the advice of Her Privy Council, if upon further representation of the General Council or otherwise, it seems to Her expedient so to do,' be there inserted,"
  —put, and agreed to.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 5 (Qualifying examinations held by medical corporation with assistant examiners).
  Amendment proposed,
  In page 3, line 15, after "examinations," insert "and the General Council are satisfied that the said medical corporation has used its best endeavours to enter into such combination as aforesaid, and is unable to do so on reasonable terms."—(Sir Lyon Playfair.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  DR. O'DOHERTY: Before passing this clause—
  THE CHAIRMAN (Mr. COURTNEY): Order, order! The hon. Member proposes to move a new clause in substitution for Clause 5.
  DR. O'DOHERTY: After Clause 4.
  THE CHAIRMAN: It is a new clause, which must be taken at the end. If the hon. Gentleman objects to this clause, he must object to it when I put it to the Committee.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Amendment proposed,
  In page 3, lines 16 and 17, leave out "and subject to the sanction and control of the Privy Council."—(Sir Lyon Playfair.)
  Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and agreed to.
  Amendment proposed,
  In page 3, lines 29 and 30, leave out "subject to the sanction and control of the Privy Council."—(Sir Lyon Playfair.)
  Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.
  Amendment proposed,
  In page 3, lines 36 and 37, leave out "with the sanction of the Privy Council."—(Sir Lyon Playfair.)
  Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.
  Motion made, and question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  DR. O'DOHERTY: I propose that this clause be omitted, and a new clause inserted in its place.
  THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Gentleman will give his reasons why the clause should be omitted. The question of the substitution of a new clause will arise at the end.
  DR. O'DOHERTY: The reason why I propose to leave out this clause is that, in my opinion, it does not meet the requirement it is intended to meet; that it will not prevent one or other of these Colleges refusing to join and take part in these examinations. On that account it will prevent the object of the Bill being effected. By the clause I suggest, however, the object of the measure will be much more effectually secured.
  DR. KENNY: I also object to the clause, because, under it, it is quite possible for a powerful Corporation to very much oppress a weaker one. It is quite open to the College of Physicians in Dublin to refuse, if it chooses, to enter into an arrangement with the Apothecaries Hall. It would be utterly and entirely destructive of the object the right hon. Gentleman (Sir Lyon Playfair) has in view in bringing forward this Bill—namely, the development of medical science, if there were refusals to take part in the examinations. The clause, as it stands, will, I am persuaded, open the door to a great number of abuses.
  SIR LYON PLAYFAIR: I am sure the hon. Members from Ireland themselves will be very much disappointed if this clause is rejected. Of course, we know that in Ireland there is a Body called the Apothecaries Company. That Body may, or may not, be taken in combination with other objects; but this clause gives power to the General Council to act in such a case. I think it would be better if the hon. Gentleman (Dr. O'Doherty) allowed the clause to pass, and moved on Report, or at the end of the Committee, some words which would strengthen the compulsory powers, but which words, I must tell him, I would resist. I think he himself would be exceedingly disappointed if this clause were to be omitted.
  DR. KENNY: I do not think that the clause in any way carries out the argument of the right hon. Gentleman. It appears to me that the appointment of the Examiners will be destructive to the Local Bodies, which will have to fall back even to a lower level than they stand at the present time. The object of the right hon. Gentleman is to elevate these Local Bodies; but I am positive that the clause appointing the Examiners will have the opposite effect. If my hon. Friend moves his Amendment on Report the right hon. Gentleman will oppose it; and that I feel certain is sufficient reason for us to press on the proposal to eliminate this clause at the present stage of the Bill. Considering the lateness of the hour and the importance of the clause, I beg to move, Sir, that you now report Progress.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Dr. Kenny.)
  SIR LYON PLAYFAIR: I hope the hon. Member will not press his Motion to report Progress. There is really no opposition to the Bill. All the Corporations and Universities in the Kingdom approve of the Bill, and wish to see it pass; and, considering the present critical times, what chance is there of the Bill being carried to a successful conclusion if unnecessary delays now take place? Since 1870 there have been no fewer than 22 Bills on this subject, all of which have been strongly opposed. The present measure is not opposed to any extent. All the Medical Corporations and all the Universities have written to me suggesting alterations, many of which I have been pleased to adopt. I hope the Motion to report Progress will not be persisted in.
  DR. FOSTER: I hope the hon. Member for South Cork will not press this Motion. Although we members of the Medical Profession regard the Bill as a small one, still it contains some principles which are dear to us; and we look upon it as an important measure, which will confer good upon the public at large, and we hope to see it become law. I trust that the hon. Member will withdraw his Motion.
  DR. KENNY: The right hon. Gentleman says that no opposition has come

  597
  to this Bill from any of the Medical Corporations; that is quite true. I believe these Bodies generally look on the measure as a preservation of their rights and privileges; but I entertain very serious objection to the Bill, because I think that it does not treat the Profession at large with any fairness at all. The provision for giving representation on the Medical Council is utterly inadequate. I am not here to speak on behalf of any Corporation, but for the Profession at large, and for the public, who have still a larger interest in any questions affecting the Medical Profession, and the provisions for whose protection are entirely illusory. I am afraid that I cannot yield to the hon. Member (Dr. Foster), who has just suggested that I should withdraw my Motion for reporting Progress. If I receive any assurance from the right hon. Gentleman (Sir Lyon Playfair) that later on a better representation of the Profession at large will be provided for in the Bill I will withdraw the Motion; but from what I have heard, and from what has already taken place, I fear there is no prospect of any such assurance being given.
  MR. DILLON: I would appeal to my hon. Friend (Dr. Kenny) to withdraw his Motion. As far as I can understand it, although the Bill does not go far enough, it seems to meet the crying grievances which have existed in the Profession for years. I would point out to my hon. Friend that he will have an opportunity of raising the point at issue at a later stage of the Bill, and that an Amendment is on the Paper dealing with the point in which he is interested. I would earnestly urge him to withdraw his Motion, and bring his recommendations up at a later period.
  DR. KENNY: Under the circumstances, Sir, I beg to withdraw my Motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
  Effect of Registration.
  Clause 6 (Privileges of registered persons) agreed to.
  Constitution of General Council.
  Clause 7 (Members of General Council).
  THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Sir LYON PLAYFAIR): I beg to move, as an Amendment, in page 4, line 17, to leave out "six" and insert "five."
  Question, "That the word 'six' stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.
  Question proposed, "That the word 'five' be there inserted."
  DR. FOSTER: I beg to move, as an Amendment, that the word "four" be there inserted. I would point out that these six nominees of the Crown were originally placed on the Council in default of any representation being given to the Medical Profession; the argument used when the old Act was passed was that representation could not be given, as there was no register upon which representatives could be elected. We now think, however, that the time has come when the Profession can obtain substantial representation, and that we ought to have, at least, a majority of the minority of the Council. Under this Bill the majority will still be in the hands of the Corporations; but there will be 10 members independent of these Universities and Corporations, and I do not think it is unreasonable that the Profession should ask to have a representation of six members, and the Crown four. As I pointed out to the House on the second reading of this Bill, the vast majority of the Medical Profession reside in England; and, as I stated then, that constituency will be greatly unrepresented by only having two members on the Council. In order to increase this representation I propose to give four members instead of six to the Crown; and I think the House will see that the time has come when steps should be taken to prevent the continuance of the great disparity between the representatives of the Profession and the nominees of the Crown.
  Amendment proposed, "That the word 'four' be there inserted."—(Dr. Foster.)
  SIR LYON PLAYFAIR: Everyone will admit that the Crown nominees have always been the most distinguished men of the Profession. They have represented the Medical Profession even more than the Corporations, and have adorned the Council to which they have

  599
  been sent. I think that everyone will admit that. Although I am unwilling, therefore, to decrease the number of Crown nominees, still I was so struck by the observations of my hon. Friend (Dr. Foster) on the second reading, that I consented to sacrifice one of the Crown nominees, in order to give an additional representative to England, making five in all of the Profession, and I think my hon. Friend will consider that I have met him as far as possible. In this way no increase will be put upon the expenses of the Council, whose funds are only small, and who cannot afford to bear great expense. Under these circumstances I must adhere to the word "five."
  MR. DILLON: I do not wish to prolong the debate, but I must say this. It is an exceptional thing for me to support Crown nominees; but I do think that under this Bill it is not well to give so large a representation to Corporations as compared with Crown nominees. I am inclined to agree with the right hon. Gentleman that these Crown nominees are amongst the most distinguished men in the Profession, and represent more fully the Medical Profession than the nominees of the Corporations; and, therefore, I shall support him.
  DR. KENNY: I also am inclined to think that the Crown nominees are among the most distinguished men in the Profession; and I am much more disposed, later on, to move an increase of the representation of the Profession at large, than to move to decrease the number of the Crown nominees. No doubt, if we cannot give a better representation to the Profession at large later on, I should agree with the last Amendment, because the increase must come from somewhere; but I think it can be better met in another way. It seems to me that the proper course to pursue is, whilst we are grouping Medical Bodies in the country for the purposes of examinations, to do it also for purposes of representation. By that means we can leave the nominees of the Crown as they are, and give the Profession a much larger representation.
  MR J. H. A. MACDONALD: I hope the Committee will accept the Amendment of the hon. Member for Chester (Dr. Foster). I think it will be
  600
  preferable that we should have on the Council only four members nominated by the Privy Council. The right hon. Gentleman (Sir Lyon Playfair), in the argument he brought forward in favour of having five Crown nominees, entirely ignored what all Members of the House will expect—namely, that although these Crown nominees may be among the most distinguished men in the Profession, it will be an extraordinary thing if, when the medical practitioners of the three countries have the opportunity of selecting gentlemen to represent them, they do not themselves select the most distinguished men in the Profession.
  Amendment (Dr. Foster), by leave, withdrawn.
  Amendment (Sir Lyon Playfair) put, and agreed to.
  SIR HENRY ROSCOE: The object which I have in moving this Amendment—namely, in page 4, after line 27, insert, as new lines, "the Victoria University; the University of Durham" will be plain to the Committee. At the present moment the University of Durham has a representative on the Council; but the new University—the Victoria—has none, and under the Bill the two are to be amalgamated, and are only to have one representative between them. The Victoria University is a young and increasing University, whereas Durham is an old one. In fact, the two are of an entirely different character. The Victoria University has a well-equipped and numerously-attended Medical School, where the scientific education is of the highest kind. It includes the Owen's College, Manchester, and the University College, Liverpool, both containing flourishing Medical Schools, and it is hoped that in a short time the Leeds Medical School connected with the Yorkshire College will also become affiliated. We have, at the present moment, upwards of 500 students, who will form the bulk of the practising physicians and surgeons of the North of England; and I therefore think we deserve to have a representative of our own on the Council. Durham University is entirely removed from the centre of the Victoria University, and the appliances which it possesses for scientific education are decidedly inferior to those proposed by the younger University, which are of

  601
  the most complete and most modern description; and, therefore, I have to move that Durham University and the Victoria University have each a representative on the Council.
  Amendment proposed,
  In page 4, line 27, to leave out from the word "London," to the word "collectively," in line 29, in order to insert the words—"The Victoria University; The University of Durham."—(Sir Henry Roscoe.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  LORD FREDERICK HAMILTON: I merely wish to corroborate what has fallen from the hon. Member for South Manchester (Sir Henry Roscoe), that the Victoria University is entitled by its importance to nominate a member of the Medical Council. It is entitled to that privilege by its importance, not merely because of the work done by it, but also from the fact that it is now the educational centre of the whole of the county of Lancashire and of the West Riding of Yorkshire. The system of education there is totally different to that given at the Durham University, and the classes from which the students are drawn are different. In fact, there is nothing in common between them, except that the students are drawn from the North of England; but even the geographical argument is not a strong one, for Durham is no nearer Manchester than Oxford. No one can contend that the addition of one member to the Medical Council can be a matter of material importance; and, looking at the growing importance of the Victoria University, I think the Amendment should be assented to.
  MR. F. S. POWELL: I hope the Committee will allow me to say a word in support of this Amendment. I am quite certain that those who know what is going on in connection with the Educational Institutions of Manchester, Liverpool, and Leeds will bear me out when I say that the University which is the centre of those Institutions is fully entitled to representation on the Medical Council. The Manchester Medical School has long been celebrated for its skill and knowledge, as also have those of Liverpool and Leeds; and I feel sure the Committee will consider they are entitled to representation. I think, also,
  602
  that the University will grow rapidly year by year and become more powerful, and before long the number who belong to it will be very largely increased. Durham is not a sister University to the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, and I feel that any association between the Victoria University and the University of Durham would be valueless, inasmuch as the cause of those Universities would not be advanced by such union. I do not see how the two Universities could choose a member of the Council collectively. There seems to be a great technical difficulty which renders such collective action impracticable.
  MR. RATHBONE: I do not think I overrate the importance of these large Medical Schools of Manchester, Liverpool, and Leeds when I say I think they are justly entitled to representation on the Medical Council.
  DR. FOSTER: With regard to the Amendment before the Committee, I would point out that the representation on the Medical Council is already considered too great by the Profession, by whose taxation that representation is entirely kept up, and yet we have an Amendment before us to increase that representation by adding a member for the Victoria University. The Victoria University is young, but it is a growing University, and when it has further developed it will, in my opinion, be quite time to give it a member in the Council. I am afraid, however, the Durham University is not growing; but, with regard to the Victoria University, I have no doubt that, at the proper time, it will have a member of its own.
  DR. FARQUHARSON: I think my hon. Friend (Sir Henry Roscoe) has made out a good case for the Victoria University having its own representative on the Medical Council. It is a young school, and it is doing good work. I propose to support the Amendment of my hon. Friend on selfish grounds, as I may have a similar proposal to make on behalf of the University of Aberdeen.
  MR. WHITLEY: I can bear my testimony to the fact that the Medical School of the Victoria University is doing very good work, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will agree to the Amendment.
  SIR LYON PLAYFAIR: I am bound, with regret, to oppose this Amendment, and if my hon. Friend goes to a division I shall be unable to vote with him. The Victoria University is a very promising one; but it is, nevertheless, in its infancy, and, although many are taught there, it has very few graduates. I beg to point out that the General Council, under Clause 10, has power to give separate representation to any University which supports its claim to such representation; and, therefore, I should not feel justified in voting for the Amendment of my hon. Friend, although, in view of the general feeling exhibited in favour of the proposal, I shall not join in opposition to it.
  MR. JACKSON: I am exceedingly glad to find that the right hon. Gentleman has gone so far to meet the general opinion of the Committee. As far as the Medical Profession of Leeds are concerned, they speak with a united voice on this subject, and entirely in accordance with the view of the hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir Henry Roscoe).
  SIR JOHN LUBBOCK: I confess that my vote on this Amendment would be a good deal influenced by the number of the constituency, as to which at present I have no knowledge. Perhaps some hon. Member authorized to speak on behalf of the Victoria University will give us information on that point. I should like to know, if we are to give representation to the Victoria University and the University of Durham, what would be the constituency in both cases?
  DR. FOSTER: I do not think there are more than 100 graduates of the Victoria University at the present time, and it would be hardly fair to give that small number the same representation as London University.
  SIR HENRY ROSCOE: I would point out that the Governing Body of the Victoria University is a thoroughly representative one, and that the University Court would, in all probability, be the Elective Body by whom the representative would be chosen.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNOR: I think objection to this Amendment comes with a worse grace from the hon. Baronet the Member for London University (Sir John Lubbock) than from any Member of the House. He ought to recollect that there was a
  604
  proposal included in the Reform Bill of Mr. Disraeli to unite Durham University with the University of London. ["No, no!"] The hon. Baronet contradicts me; but I followed the discussion in the House of Commons at the time closer, perhaps, than he did, and my recollection is perfectly clear upon the subject, and I remember that it was pointed out that to attach a young and growing University like that of London to a dying University like that of Durham, was an act similar to that of tying together a living person and a corpse. If that argument was good then it is good now, against joining Durham to other Medical Bodies. I repeat that the argument against the Amendment comes with a very bad grace from the hon. Baronet.
  SIR JOHN LUBBOCK: The hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. T. P. O'Connor) quite misunderstands what I said. I remarked that when it was proposed to give one Member to Victoria University and one to Durham, it was natural to ask to be informed how large were the constituencies they would represent. I have not made up my mind how I shall vote on this question, and it will greatly depend upon the information I may receive.
  SIR JULIAN GOLDSMID: I understand the hon. Baronet to say that he wishes to know, as I also should like to know, how many graduates there are at the two Universities in question? It is known that the number of undergraduates at Durham is very limited; and though the Victoria University is a growing institution, it is only growing in the sense in which a baby is said to grow, and I think the time has hardly arrived for giving it representation. In fact, I heard the other day that there are only 20 or 30 graduates.
  MR. GIBSON: The principle on which I think the Committee ought to act in this matter is that the interests of medical education in the North of England all converge towards the Victoria University. The medical men of Yorkshire and Lancashire are, I think, entitled to have a centre of their own, and that medical centre is the Victoria University, which is a growing Institution. She ought to have more representation than Durham; but, according to this Bill, a hybrid system of repre-

  605
  sentation is sought to be established, and it is exceedingly difficult to understand what proportion of it each should take. I think it would be right for us to say that Victoria University should be represented. But we must not look alone at the interest of Universities; we must look to the interest of the Medical Profession in the North of England generally.
  DR. TANNER: I must give this proposal my strongest opposition, because it embodies a principle which, in my opinion, is false to everything which this Bill is intended to effect. If we look into the proposal we shall see that the Committee is asked to extend to these two Universities increased representation; and it is very plain that, up to the present time, the Licensing Bodies have had too great power in their hands. If I understand the general tenour of the Bill, it is to take power in a great degree out of the hands of those Bodies and place it in those of a well-selected General Council. If we commence, at this early period of the discussion, to put on the Medical Council representatives of new Universities, what is there to prevent other hon. Gentlemen from standing up for their own Universities and small Medical Schools in other portions of the Kingdom? I say that the Amendment is false to the principle of the Bill, and certainly hope that it will be withdrawn.
  SIR TREVOR LAWRENCE: The objection which I have to the proposal is that it proposes to add to the Medical Council, which is too large already. There is a great disadvantage in having so many people to talk, and in the Medical Council already debates and discussions are carried on, the extreme length of which is a great impediment to business. It would be quite as reasonable for one of the great hospitals—St. Bartholomew's, for instance—to ask to have representation on the Council, as it would be for the Victoria University. I object to this proposal; in the first place, because it would increase the number of members of the Medical Council; and, in the next, because I think there are other Universities which have stronger claims.
  Question put, and negatived.
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 119, Noes 42: Majority 77.—(Div. List, No. 112.)
  SIR HENRY ROSCOE: I beg to move, as an Amendment in page 4, to leave out lines 28 and 29.
  Question, "That lines 28 and 29, in page 4, stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.
  DR. FARQUHARSON: After the division which has just taken place I rise with a light and cheerful heart to propose the Amendment which stands in my name; and I trust that the right hon. Gentleman will exhibit, for the old University of Aberdeen, a little of that affection which he has exhibited towards the young Victoria University. There is a very strong feeling in favour of this Amendment, which is as follows:—In page 4, after line 36, insert "The University of Aberdeen; the University of St. Andrew's." Although the actual population in the North of Scotland may be small, there is no doubt that all over the world you find Scottish graduates, and, as a general rule, you find them doing excellent work. We have heard just now that the Victoria University represents the medical education of the North of England. Well, Sir, the Aberdeen University represents the medical education of the North of Scotland. It has been growing rapidly during the last few years. During the last 22 years it has nearly doubled; it now represents over 400 students, and is increasing every year. We know that the students make their mark in the world, and I think that the claim of the University of Aberdeen to separate representation is fully equal of that of the Universities of Oxford or Cambridge, and even to that of the University of London. I have not said a word about the University of St. Andrew's. It is very small, but it is growing, and it is very likely to be affiliated with Dundee, and thus to represent in the future an important educational centre. I beg to propose the words of which I have given Notice.
  Amendment proposed,
  In page 4, line 36, to leave out from the word "Glasgow," to the word "collectively," in line 38, in order to insert the words—"The University of Aberdeen; the University of St. Andrew's."—(Dr. Farquharson.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  DR. FOSTER: I shall oppose this on the same principle as I opposed the last extension of the representation of these Corporations. One of the defects of the Medical Council ever since 1859 has been that these Corporations have had all the representation, and the Medical Profession have had none. It is very hard that the Profession should have to pay all the money to support the Council, and have practically no representation. I asked that we should get a representative out of the Crown nominees, but I did not succeed—although the Committee has consented to give a representative to the Victoria University. On behalf of the Medical Profession I protest against any further representation being given to these Corporations, and on the Report stage I shall endeavour to alter the system, believing it to be wrong.
  THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Sir LYON PLAYFAIR): I voted in the "No" Lobby in the last division; but I believe that in proportion to the other representations, Scotland is not sufficiently well represented, and in the present state of feeling in the Committee it appears to me that it would be useless to oppose the Amendment. Certainly, the University of Aberdeen has a much better claim to representation than the Victoria University. It passes 73 Doctors and Bachelors of Medicine annually, and it has a very large constituency. The Committee will see how important it is, when I say that the Cambridge University, which has now an important Medical School, and to which no one would dream of refusing representation, only passes 27 medical men a year, while Aberdeen passes 73. Therefore, having given representation to the Victoria University I do not see how we can refuse it to Aberdeen.
  MR. DILLON: Before we go to a division I should like to know whether these Amendments mean a corresponding increase in the representation of the Profession? At present we are only to have two from Ireland, two from Scotland, and four from England; and before going to a division I should like to know if that number is to be in-
  608
  creased? The promoters of the Bill do not seem to recognize the fact that it is the great majority of the Medical Corporations which are in the habit of obstructing medical measures in Parliament, and if I had thought for a moment that the right hon. Gentleman was going to refuse an increase in the representation of the members of the Profession I doubt very much if I should have voted as I did on the last Amendment.
  MR. J. A. CAMPBELL: I do not think it can be said that the Scottish Universities have stood in the way of medical reforms. I will not trouble the House with facts and figures in regard to the University of Aberdeen, which I have the honour to represent in this House; but I may say, as the right hon. Gentleman has shown, it is a large and flourishing Medical School. What I would lay before the House is the inconvenience of associating the Universities of Aberdeen and St. Andrew's for collective representation on the Medical Council, inasmuch as the two Universities are not similar in regard to the matter of medical faculties. The University of Aberdeen has a Medical School, while St. Andrew's is an Examining Body in regard to medical studies. It has a large number of medical graduates, and fulfils special functions in regard to medical education. I do not suggest that those functions should be taken away; but I do think it is inconvenient, under these circumstances, to associate Aberdeen and St. Andrew's in regard to representation on this Council. Therefore, I hope the Committee will not hesitate to grant separate representation on the Medical Council to each of these Universities.
  SIR JOHN LUBBOCK: I voted in favour of the separate representation of the Victoria University, because I was unwilling that the Victoria University should have no representation at all. I do not, however, think the present Motion should be adopted, for I trust the members of the Medical Council will not be increased, because I am sure those acquainted with the working of it will agree that the numbers are sufficiently large. If my hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire (Dr. Farquharson) goes to a division, I am afraid I shall not be able to vote with him.
  MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD: As the Representative of the University of St. Andrew's, I may be allowed to say a word, particularly after what has fallen from the hon. Baronet the Member for the University of London (Sir John Lubbock). I do not think that the majority of the Committee will accept it from him that they made a mistake in their last division, and that therefore they must do a gross injustice in this case. It is plain upon the face of it that, if a member 13 to be given to each of the Universities in England, there is no reason why a member should not be given to each of the Universities in Scotland. St. Andrew's is the most ancient University in Scotland, and is quite as much entitled to separate representation as the Victoria University or the University of Durham. St. Andrew's has great prospects before it. Within a very short time it will be within half-an-hour's journey of Dundee, in which there is a flourishing University College established. [Laughter.] Hon. Members seem to be under some delusion about that. There is a University College established there, with a most excellent endowment, and in a short time there will be developed a very considerable number of medical schools there. The number of medical undergraduates in St. Andrew's is at present large, and therefore the University is fairly entitled to separate representation.
  DR. FOSTER: It is all very well for the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. J. H. A. Macdonald) to say that St. Andrew's has a large number of medical undergraduates. He must know that St. Andrew's is the University of the United Kingdom which has brought disgrace upon the Medical Profession. Boatloads of English students go up there simply to take the degrees. At the present time it has no actual working medical school, and it only makes 10 aged practitioners doctors of medicine annually. It is said there is no argument against this proposition. The argument against the Amendment is this—Scotland has six representatives, it will have one Crown and one direct representative—that is, it will have eight members on the General Medical Council, while the medical population of the country is under 8,000. England, with a medical population of
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  16,000, will only have seven representatives. I shall take a division on the question.
  MR. J. H. A. MACDONALD: How many of the medical men in England came from the Scotch Universities?
  DR. TANNER: The more I hear in the course of this debate, the more firmly convinced I am that there are too many corners being fought. This Bill is not intended to benefit the Medical Profession or any of the Bodies specified; but it is intended to benefit society at large, and, therefore, the fewer of the Corporations and Institutions that you grant power to, the better will be the provision you will make for the security of the general public. I feel great diffidence in addressing the Committee; but, having had some little experience, I feel bound to express the opinion, an opinion which I know perfectly well all my medical friends share, that the more you cut down these Corporations the greater benefit you will confer on the public. We have admitted the Victoria University to separate representation, and now it is proposed to grant separate representation to the University of Aberdeen and the University of St. Andrew's. Goodness knows where we shall stop. If the Universities of Aberdeen and St. Andrew's are admitted to representation, I shall certainly, on behalf of the Irish Bodies, ask for representation for the Catholic University and for the Magee College in Belfast.
  MR. LACAITA: This is not a question of the comparative representation of Scotland as compared with England, but a question of what is due to the University of Aberdeen. I do not think many hon. Members will admit they made a mistake in the last division; but if there were hon. Members who went into the Lobby with the hon. Member for South Manchester (Sir Henry Roscoe) by mistake, they must have been very few in number. What claim has Durham University to separate representation that is not possessed by Aberdeen and St. Andrew's?
  MR. JOHNS: I have no desire to take part in the discussion, but simply rise to say that if the Medical Gentlemen in the House will not get on a little quicker with the Business, I must ask you, Mr. Courtney, to report Progress.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 72; Noes 55: Majority 17.—(Div. List No. 113.)
  Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

  FRESHWATER FISHERIES BILL. [BILL 218.]
  (Mr. Mundella, Mr. C. T. D. Acland.)

  COMMITTEE. REPORT. RE-COMMITMENT.
  Bill considered in Committee, and reported; to be printed as amended. [Bill 244.]
  THE SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. C. T. D. ACLAND): I believe I shall be in Order in asking the House to re-commit this Bill pro formâ. There are Amendments being printed, of which I have given Notice.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be re-committed pro formâ."—(Mr. C. T. D. Acland.)
  MR. STUART-WORTLEY: On the question of Order, I wish to ask a question, I suppose the House has not lost its control over the Amendments to this Bill by the proceeding which has just taken place?
  MR. SPEAKER: The Bill is in precisely the same position as it was when the House first went into Committee upon it.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill re-committed for Thursday.

  PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (RETURNING OFFICERS) ACT (1875) AMENDMENT BILL.— [BILL 241.]
  (Mr. T. M. Healy, Mr. Chance.)

  CONSIDERATION.
  Bill, as amended, considered.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: I do not propose to go on with this matter now; but the Bill has been so amended in Committee that it will be better to make some slight alteration in the Bill, so as it shall read "to make better provision for appeals from judgments of County Courts;" then leave out the word "under," and insert "and amend," so that it will run "and amend the provisions of the Parliamentary Elections (Returning Officers) Act, 1875."
  Question, "That the word 'under' stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.
  Question, "That the words 'and amend' be here inserted," put, and agreed to.
  Motion made, and Question, "That the Debate be now adjourned,"—(Mr. T. M. Healy,)—put, and agreed to.
  Further Proceeding on Consideration, as amended, deferred till Thursday.

  JURORS DETENTION BILL.— [BILL 202.]
  (Mr. Lockwood, Mr. Crompton, Mr. Finlay, Mr. Baggallay.)

  COMMITTEE.
  Bill considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Clause 1 (Power in Court to allow jury to separate in cases of felony).
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir CHARLES RUSSELL): On the second reading of this Bill, the Government substantially accepted it; but I have an Amendment to propose on this clause, which is, in line 12, to insert the words "Provided always, that the Court may see fit."
  Amendment proposed,
  In page 1, line 12, to insert the words "Provided always, that the Court may see fit."—(Mr. Attorney General.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. LOCKWOOD: On behalf of those who are interested in this Bill, I have to say that we have great pleasure in accepting this Amendment.
  MR. STUART-WORTLEY: I should like to know whether the hon. and learned Gentleman does not think that the same effect would be obtained by a direction from the Bench?
  SIR CHARLES RUSSELL: The Amendment has been put down on the suggestion of a Judge who, perhaps, has as great experience of Criminal Law as any other man on the Bench. As my hon. Friend will see, it is not compulsory on the Judge, but he will simply have the discretionary power.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

MOTION.

  REVISING BARRISTERS APPOINTMENT BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. Attorney General, Bill for amending the Law as to the appointment of Revising Barristers in England, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Attorney General and Mr. Secretary Childers.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 245.]
  House adjourned at a quarter before Three o'clock.