Commons Sitting of 23 March 1885

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Resolution in Committee—County Officers and Courts (Ireland) [Pensions].
Resolution [March 19] reported—Ordered —First Reading — East India Loan (£10,000,000) [109]."
Ordered—First Reading—Local Government Provisional Orders (Poor Law) (No. 2) (Aller, &c.)* [107]; Local Government (Provisional Orders (Poor Law) (No. 3) (Ashcot, &c.) * [108]; Registration of Voters (Ireland) * [110].
Second Reading—Cape of Good Hope (Advance) [101]; Parliamentary Elections (Returning Officers) [99]; Army (Annual) [104]; Consolidated Fund (No. 2).*
Committee—Parliamentary Elections (Redistribution) (re-comm.) [49]—R.p. [Eighth Night].

QUESTIONS.

  PUBLIC WORKS LOANS (IRELAND)— ARKLOW BREAKWATER.
  MR. W. J. CORBETasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, If he has received the special report called for on the subject of Arklow Breakwater, the foundations of which have given way, and whether he can state its purport; whether it is the fact that the grant of £15,000 and loan of £20,000 barely cover the contract and purchase-money paid to the Wicklow Copper Mining Company for their interests in the harbour; whether he can now give any estimate of the probable cost for extra work consequent on the failure; whether the ratepayers who guaranteed repayment of the loan, and who, through their representatives, condemned the plans of the Board of Works from the first, can now be held responsible or be
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  called on to pay anything outside the amount guaranteed; and, whether the Government will fulfil their part by completing the harbour works in a satisfactory manner without further cost to the ratepayers?
  MR. HIBBERT: The Chairman of the Board of Works visited Arklow on Saturday. His Report will reach me to-morrow, and I will communicate the result to the hon. Member. In the meanwhile, I may say that the greater part of the work done is quite uninjured, and that there is every reason to hope that no excess will arise on the total amount sanctioned, there being a margin of over £3,000 between that sum and the contract price. This being so, it is unnecessary to contemplate the contingency of an excess.

  HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE—CHANCERY DIVISION.
  MR. W. H. SMITHasked Mr. Attorney General, If Her Majesty's Government have taken into their consideration the serious delays in the Chancery Division of the High Court of Justice to which attention was called last Session, and which still continues; and, whether they are now prepared to take any measure to secure to suitors a more rapid administration of justice?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES): It must be recollected that this block in the Court of Chancery is one that has existed certainly ever since the time of Lord Eldon's Chancellorship, and its removal is a work of great difficulty; but some progress has been made, and I am glad of this opportunity of stating how much has been done during the last 12 months, and is now being done, for relieving the pressure of business in the Chancery Division. It is impossible not to recognize the readiness with which the Lord Chief Justice and the Judges of the Queen's Bench Division have taken upon themselves the additional burden of rendering assistance to the Chancery Division. The Chancery Division has been relieved of Bankruptcy business. Until last year Bankruptcy was dealt with by a Chancery Judge; now it is transacted by a Judge of the Queen's Bench Division. The Queen's Bench Judges have taken upon themselves the whole burden of Circuits, and have relieved the Chancery Judges, so that all five Courts and

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  all Chambers of the Chancery Division are open throughout the sittings. Under the provisions of the Judicature Act of last year, a Queen's Bench Judge (Mr. Justice Field) is now sitting as an additional Judge of the Chancery Division, and will, as I am informed, by Easter have finished the list of causes transferred to him (50 in number). At the same time, an order has been made transferring 65 causes from the Chancery to the Queen's Bench Division, which will be heard next sittings along with the other non-jury causes in the Queen's Bench list. Any Chancery cause may now be set down for hearing in its place of origin at the Assizes instead of in London, if the parties, for any reason of expedition or expense, desire it; and if the number of causes so set down is large, special sittings will be arranged to take them. A very considerable part of the arrangements for more expedition in the Chancery Division rests with the Judges themselves of that Division; and an important Committee is now sitting (on which the Chancery Judges are powerfully represented), from which the Lord Chancellor expects material assistance in dealing with the causes of delay and expense. It is impossible to anticipate what their Report may be; but, no doubt, they will make important recommendations with reference to the most important causes of delay.
  In reply to Mr. ARTHUR O'CONNOR and Mr. TOMLINSON,
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES)said, that both the taxing-office business and Chamber business were under the direction and control of the Judges themselves, and any question with regard to them would be for the consideration of the Committee to which he had referred.

  FRIENDLY SOCIETIES ACTS, 1876 AND 1877—DISPUTES BETWEEN HEAD SOCIETIES AND BRANCHES.
  MR. TOMLINSONasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether his attention has been called to a decision of the Judge of the Wrexham County Court to the effect that he has no jurisdiction under the twenty-second section of "The Friendly Societies Act, 1875," 38 and 39 Vic. c. 60, to deal with disputes between a society and a registered branch of the same society as defined
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  By "The Friendly Societies Amendment Act, 1876," 39 and 40 Vic. c. 32; whether it was the intention of the framers of the Acts that all such disputes should be within the scope of the twenty-second section of the Act of 1875; and, whether he will bring in a Bill to remedy this defect?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS): In reply to the hon. Gentleman, I have to say that I know nothing of the decision of the Wrexham County Court Judge, except as it is referred to in the Question. I believe that it was the intention of the late Government, in framing the Friendly Societies Amendment Act, 1876, that all disputes within societies (except such as are subject to the special provisions of Section 30 of the Friendly Societies Act, 1875) should be within the scope of Section 22 of that Act. But the decision of a County Court Judge cannot, it appears to me, afford a sufficient ground for altering the law. If the higher Courts should confirm this decision I will then take the matter into consideration, with a view to see whether the law should be altered.

  EDUCATION DEPARTMENT—AYR (LANDWARD) AND AYR (BURGH).
  DR. CAMERONasked the Vice President of the Committee of Council, Whether Ayr (Landward) is a School Board district distinct from Ayr (Burgh), and how many children of school age are comprised in its population; whether it is true that beyond appointing a secretary and levying a small rate once in three years to pay his salary, the Ayr (Landward) School Board have done nothing to meet the educational wants of the district; and, whether it is the case that children belonging to Ayr (landward) district are educated at the schools and at the expense of the ratepayers of Ayr(Burgh) and Alloway; and, if so, whether he will take steps either to amalgamate the districts so as to make all the ratepayers contribute to the cost of the public education provided, or compel the board of the landward district to provide education for that district at its own cost?
  MR. MUNDELLA: Ayr (Landward) is a school-board district, and distinct from Ayr (Burgh), and contains 161 children of school age. The hon. Member is quite correct in his statement of

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  the facts of the case, and the Department would before this have issued an order of amalgamation; butt there is now before Parliament a Bill for the extension of the boundary of the borough which may affect the question. The issue of the order has, therefore, been postponed until the fate of the Bill is decided. Should the Bill be rejected the order will be issued.

  RAILWAYS (INDIA)—BHOPAL, GWALIOR, AND CAWNPORE RAILWAY.
  SIR JOHN HAYasked the Under Secretary of State for India, What was the date and nature of the agreement with a Company for the construction of the Bhopal, Gwalior, and Cawnpore Railway (605 miles); and, whether an offer was made for the construction of this line by the Great India Peninsula Railway Company in 1881?
  MR. J. K. CROSS: An agreement was come to with the promoters of the Bhopal, Gwalior, and Cawnpore Railway in February last, as to the general terms on which a Company, to be called the Indian Midland Railway Company, was to be formed for undertaking the line in question, and a contract embodying in legal form the necessary provisions is now under consideration. The agreement is similar to that made with the Southern Mahratta Railway Company, with the modification suggested by the recent Select Committee on Indian Railways, and provides for the grant of interest at 3½ per cent on an estimated capital of £5,000,000, with one-fourth of the net earnings besides. For the first seven years, the Government also guarantee that the Company shall receive not less than 4 per cent interest per annum. An offer was made by the Great Indian Peninsula Railway in 1831 for the construction of a portion of the system which is to be undertaken by the new Company. But it was not favourably entertained by the Secretary of State in Council, as it involved an enlargement of the operations of the Great Indian Peninsula Company, combined with an extension of the Government guarantee.

  THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND)—TRIM PETTY SESSIONS—MAJOR TRAILL, R.M., CO. MEATH.
  MR. O'SULLIVANasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ire-
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  land, Whether it is true that Major Traill, one of the resident magistrates for the country Meath, did, on the 2nd and 8th of August last, commence business at the Trim Petty Sessions Court two hours before the usual time for opening the Court and before any of the magistrates for the district arrived; whether the local magistrates complained to the Lord Lieutenant of Major Traill's conduct towards them; whether Major Traill's decisions on those occasions were reversed at Quarter Sessions by the County Judge and a full Bench of Magistrates; and, whether he will have steps taken to prevent the Petty Sessions Court being opened in future before the usual hour for so doing?
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The circumstances referred to in this Question, which resulted in a temporary misunderstanding between Major Traill and some of the local Justices, have been before the Lord Lieutenant. The misunderstanding has been happily removed, and His Excellency has taken such measures as seem necessary to prevent the recurrence of such an incident.

  EGYPT (THE MILITARY EXPEDITION) —SMALL POX.
  MR. HOPWOODasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether he can state to what extent, and in what locality, small pox has occurred in the English Army in Egypt; and, whether the sufferers in these cases had been revaccinated according to custom before the attack?
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON,in reply, said, from the first arrival of the Army in Egypt in 1882, down to the date of the latest Return, there had occurred among the troops, including the Forces on the Nile and at Suakin, 81 cases of small-pox, 7 of which had proved fatal. Of these, 38 had occurred at Cairo, and 20 at Dongola, the remaining 23 cases being at various stations. In 51 of these cases re-vaccination was known to have been performed; and it was believed that the regulations had been generally carried out with regard to the remainder.

  LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND)— SIR GILBERT KING'S TENANTS.
  MR. SEXTONasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If it is a fact that twenty-four of

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  the county Sligo tenants of Sir Gilbert King, who went into the Land Commission Court in order to have fair rents fixed, and who paid in November last the rent due in the previous March, were serve in January with processes for the half-year's rent due in November last; and, whether there is any legal protection for tenants who avail themselves of the Land Act, against legal proceedings contravening the custom of the estate, and imposing costs upon them?
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: This Question relates to legal proceedings taken by a private individual, as to which the Government has no information. If the gentleman referred to is acting within his legal powers the Government has no authority or right to interfere.

  LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)—DEATH OF DENIS MURPHY.
  MR. SEXTONasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether District Inspector Davis, R.I.O. Castleisland, swore, at the inquest on the body of Denis Murphy, that from the first he did not believe the case was one of outrage, but that the shot had been fired from a constable's rifle; and, if so, why he reported the case to the county inspector as being one of outrage, why he made an affidavit to procure the arrest of innocent men, and why he caused the remand of those men in custody; whether both the constables concerned persisted for some time in denying that they had been in Murphy's house that night; whether the notes of evidence at the coroner's inquest will be laid upon the Table; whether his attention has been called to the remarks of the Lord Chief Baron, at Tralee, on the 13th inst., in his charge to the Grand Jury of Kerry, who declared that, apart from the question whether Murphy was wounded by accident, there could be no doubt that a very grave crime against the administration of justice had been committed; that there is nothing more calculated to shake confidence in the administration of justice than that members of the Constabulary force should lend themselves to what had been done in that melancholy case; and that he regretted, and deemed it unfortunate, that no bill had been presented to the Grand Jury in reference to the matter, so that
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  the most searching investigation should be given to what appeared to him to be the very grievous misdemeanor of endeavouring to defeat, delay, or impede the administration of justice; why the Crown did not present to the Kerry Grand Jury a bill in respect of this offence; and, what will now be done in the ease?
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: District Inspector Davis did not swear at the inquest that, from the first, he did not believe the case was one of outrage. He stated that the surroundings did not strike him as being those of a genuine outrage. From the report of the constables, which was positive and unequivocal, he, in the discharge of his duty, reported to the County Inspector the case as communicated to him. He afterwards, from personal examination, satisfied himself that the case was not one of outrage. He did not make an affidavit to procure an arrest, nor did he cause any remand. The arrest was made by constables in his absence, and the remand was on their information. The constables did, for some time, persist in denying that they had been in Murphy's house, and this was one of the reasons for their dismissal. There is no objection to lay upon the Table the notes of the evidence at the inquest. The Lord Chief Baron did express himself to the effect stated. The charge of manslaughter was only dismissed on the 10th of March, and there was not then time to present a further charge to the Grand Jury at Tralee. A prosecution of another kind will now be instituted.

  NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND)— MODEL SCHOOL AT BAILIEBOROUGH, CO. CAVAN.
  MR. SEXTONasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether Mr. Fream, the principal teacher of the model school at Bailie-boro', county Cavan, is, and is known to be, a Freemason; whether, of the children attending the school, about two-thirds are Catholics; whether, owing to the refusal of the local landlord to grant a site, there is no other school available for the Catholic children of the place; whether he is aware that by an Encyclical Letter of the 20th of April 1884, the Sovereign Pontiff directed the Bishops of the Catholic Church to use all possible precaution to keep the young

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  apart from the influence of masters and schools connected with Freemasonry; whether the Catholic clergy of Bailie-boro' refuse to visit the model school in question; and, whether, having regard to the recent declaration of the Right honourable gentleman that the Board of Education do prohibit such action on the part of any teacher as is calculated to interfere with the attendance at his school of children of any religious creed, what course of action the Commissioners will adopt in regard to the case of Mr. Fream?
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I am informed that there is, and has been for the last 17 years, a National School in Bailieborough under the management of the parish priest. It would therefore appear that the Catholic children who attend Mr. Fream's school do so by their own or their parents' choice.

  NATIONAL SCHOOLS (IRELAND)— TEACHERS' EXAMINATIONS.
  MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHYasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, What are the "certain cases" referred to in paragraph (c) of the fifteenth regulation regarding the teaching of extra branches in Irish National Schools, and whether they include the cases of teachers who have passed the matriculation examination, and the first University examination, in the Arts course of the Royal University of Ireland?
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I am informed that the cases referred to cannot be specifically enumerated, but that the regulation does not apply to subjects in the first University examination of the Royal University in which the teacher has passed creditably.

  EDUCATION DEPARTMENT—BRAILES ENDOWED SCHOOL—A POLITICAL SCHOOLMASTER.
  MR. WILLSasked the Vice President of the Committee of Council, If Mr. A. 0. Bishop, master of the parish school at Brailes, South Warwickshire, has recently received three months' notice from the school trustees; and, if so, what reasons are assigned for such dismissal; whether Mr. Bishop has held his present mastership nearly nine years, and lately received an advance in salary, and how
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  the work of the school is reported on by Her Majesty's Inspector; if, since the notice was given, the vicar of the parish has signed the usual departmental paper, to the effect that the school managers are satisfied with him; and, whether Mr. Bishop has recently taken part in the formation of a Liberal Club in the village of Brailes?
  MR. MUNDELLA: My answer to the different paragraphs of the Question of the hon. Member are in every case in the affirmative; but I have to add that this is an endowed school, and under the scheme the master is precluded from accepting any other office, and is removable "without the assignment of cause." The Trustees object that he has accepted other offices in violation of the scheme, and they also object to his taking a prominent part in politics. I need hardly say that I have no power to interfere.

  PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND)— WORKS AT EASKY AND AUGHRIS.
  MR. SEXTONasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, What is the amount of the estimate by the engineer of the Irish Board of Works for the pier at Easky (county Sligo), and for the pier at Aughris (county Sligo); has the work been given to a contractor; and, if so, for what amount in each case; when are the works to be commenced; and what time, if any, is fixed for their completion; will copies of the plans and specifications in detail be furnished to the county surveyor of Sligo; what is the cause of the delay in proceeding with the Pullendiva (county Sligo) Pier and Harbour improvement works, for which the Fishery Commissioners recommended a grant of £2,600, and for which the Board of Works furnished plans and specifications so long ago as the 22nd of July last year; whether, in constructing the existing works, the Board used concrete in situ instead of concrete blocks, as stated in the specification, and what difference this made in the outlay, whether the Government are aware that, in the present condition of the works, boats cannot be hauled up or beached, nor can they lie inside, and that it is sometimes very dangerous to attempt to land at the steps; and, what will be done to make the works of practical use to the fishing population?
  MR. HIBBERT: The estimate for the work at Easky was £4,000, and the contract has been let for £3,553; the corresponding figures for Aughris are £2,000 and £1,898 respectively. The contractors are under bonds to commence the works during the present month, and complete them by November 1 and October 1 next respectively. Plans and specifications will be furnished to the county surveyor, should the Grand Jury so require. As regards Pullendiva, the hon. Member is under a misapprehension, no final recommendation having yet been received from the Fishery Piers and Harbour Commissioners; and, meanwhile, nothing can be done.

  THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND)— MR. SAMUEL DONALDSON, J.P., CO. DONEGAL.
  MR. SEXTONasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether the Lord Chancellor of Ireland has received two letters of the 16th of June and 11th of October 1884, addressed to him by Mr. James Kee, of Altnaparte, Welchtown, county Donegal, charging Mr. Samuel Donaldson, a justice of the peace for that county, with having, by fraudulent means, procured from the representative body of the Irish Church a sum of sixty-two pounds; and also with having, in his capacity as registrar of the dispensary district of Cloghan, in the union of Stranorlar, systematically extorted money by overcharging for certificates, in contravention of the law; whether two letters from Mr. D. Blackburn, making similar complaints respecting Mr. Donaldson, were also received by the Lord Chancellor; whether both Mr. Kee and Mr. Blackburn offered, in their letters, to give evidence in verification of the charges; whether the Lord Chancellor ever acknowledged the receipt of any of the letters; whether he made any inquiry into the truth of the allegations; and, if not, for what reason; and, what steps the Government will now take in respect to Mr. Donaldson?
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The Lord Chancellor informs me that he received two letters from Mr. Kee containing charges against Mr. Donaldson. The charges were made in vague and scandalous terms; and as no materials were furnished to show that there were any true grounds for them, the
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  Lord Chancellor declined to take any notice of the letters. The Lord Chancellor only received one letter from Mr. Blackburn. It made no charges whatever; but appeared to the Lord Chancellor to be an attack on Mr. Donaldson's position and calling which was not deserving of notice.
  MR. SEXTON: I beg to say that I will forward the right hon. Gentleman a specific statement of facts establishing a charge of fraud against this gentleman.
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: If there is any charge of fraud it must be tried in a public Court. The Lord Chancellor would not act on private communication in such a matter.

  SUEZ CANAL—THE PROPOSED COMMISSION.
  MR. NORWOODasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, If he can give the names of the British representatives on the proposed Commission to draw up the agreement for the neutrality of the Suez Canal; and, whether he can lay a copy of their instructions upon the Table of the House?
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: The British Representatives will be Sir Julian Pauncefote, Permanent Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and Sir Rivers Wilson, Comptroller General of the National Debt. The Instructions cannot be laid on the Table at present.
  MR. ONSLOWasked, considering that India had had to pay a very large sum for the maintenance of the Suez Canal, as stated by Her Majesty's Government, whether it would not be proper to put an officer of Indian experience on the Commission?
  [No reply.]
  SIR. H. DRUMMOND WOLFFasked, whether, before the meeting of the Commission, there would be any Instructions given in the shape of a basis for the conduct of the Commissioners?
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE,in reply, said, that the Circular Despatch of Lord Granville, which had long been in the hands of hon. Members, contained the basis of proceedings.
  MR. GIBSON: May I ask when the Instructions to the Commission will be laid before Parliament?
  [No reply.]
  MR. GIBSON: Will Parliament ever be told anything about the Instructions?
  [No reply.]
  MR. ONSLOWsaid, he would put a Question on the Paper on the subject.
  MR. JOSEPH COWENsaid, that, in consequence of the refusal of the noble Lord to answer the Questions, he begged to give Notice that he should move an Address to Her Majesty that, before the agreement with respect to the Suez Canal was concluded, it should be submitted to the House.
  MR. GIBSON: I have asked the noble Lord when he will lay the Instructions before Parliament, and he has not given an answer.
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: I must ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman to put the Question on the Paper.

  SUEZ CANAL—NAVIGATION OF THE CANAL—INTERNATIONAL ARRANGEMENTS.
  MR. GOURLEYasked the noble Lord to be good enough to inform the House, Whether the new International arrangements regarding the navigation of the Suez Canal will admit of its being used for the passage of ships of war and troops belonging to Powers at war with each other; if so, whether it is intended that they may engage in hostilities within or in the immediate neighbourhood of the mouths of the Canal; and, further, to inquire if the new regulations will be binding upon Turkey and Egypt with Nations with whom they may be at war?
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: The answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative; to the second, in the negative. In reply to the third part, I have to state that such was the intention of the Circular of January 3, 1883, which is adopted as the basis for the International Agreement.

  POOR LAW (IRELAND)—ELECTION OF GUARDIANS—DUNPANAGHY UNION.
  MR. SEXTONasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Why voting papers for the election of guardians in the Dunfanaghy Union have not been issued to forty-four occu-
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  piers in the Magheraclogher Division, twenty-nine occupiers in the Munacladdy Division, and fourteen for the Dunlewy Division, who claimed in respect of holdings the valuation of which is higher than the yearly rent; and, why voting papers have not been issued to Hugh O'Donnell, Dunlewy, whose aggregate valuation is £5 10s. and to Mr. Heburn, whose tenements in. actual occupation are valued at about £60?
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Voting papers have not been issued to the persons referred to in the first paragraph of the Question, because they are all valued under £4, and are, therefore, not ratepayers within the meaning of the Act. A voting paper has been sent to Hugh O'Donnell. The Returning Officer states there is no such name as Heburn on the rate book of the Union.

  INDIA — THE PERMANENT SETTLEMENT OF BENGAL, BEHAR, AND ORISSA, 1793.
  GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOURasked the Under Secretary of State for India, If he will now be able to present to the House as brief a memorandum as the subject will allow, showing the main heads of the arrangements connected with the permanent settlement of Bengal, Behar, and Orissa, entered into in 1793, so as to bring out the nature and extent of the provisions for the protection of the cultivators, also the money settlements between the Zemindars and the Government, the amounts to be paid to Government and amount to be retained by the Zemindars, contrasting these estimates with those of modern times so as to show the differences; and, further, information to be supplied, regarding public functions to be performed and public works to be executed by the Zemindars, and how far these obligations have been fulfilled and works of a character beneficial to the cultivator have been carried out?
  MR. J. K. CROSS: On Thursday last I answered a Question very similar to the one now put to me by my hon. and gallant Friend, and asked him to await the presentation of Papers, which I hoped would contain the information he wishes to obtain. I must again repeat my answer, saying, also, that the Secretary of State cannot issue such a Memorandum, as it would necessarily

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  involve questions of a very controversial character.

  EGYPT (FINANCE, &c.)—THE INTERNATIONAL ARRANGEMENT.
  MR. M'COANasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Where, in either the Declaration or Convention on the subject of Egyptian finance which have been communicated to the House, is to be found any provision precluding "international interference with the affairs of Egypt" which supplies warrant for the statement he was understood to make on Wednesday last, that Her Majesty's Government joined in the guarantee of the proposed new Egyptian loan only on this understanding; and, whether, in the absence of any such provision in the Declaration or Convention, any other, and what, guarantee against such interference has been obtained?
  SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHasked the right hon. Gentleman, Whether his statement that the proposed International Guarantee does not involve International interference with the affairs of Egypt is based on any statement made or assented to by the Powers; and, if so, what that statement is; what were the reservations on the part of Russia which he referred to on Wednesday last, and why they are not included in the formal Declarations; and, whether the whole of Lord Northbrook's Report is included in the Papers to be presented?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS): In reply to the hon. Gentleman below the Gangway (Mr. M'Coan), and also to the first part of the Question of the right hon. Baronet opposite (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach), I have to say that my words on Wednesday last are correctly quoted by the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Baronet. I said that the proposed International Guarantee did not involve International interference with the affairs of Egypt, and I referred to the Anglo-French Guarantee of 1855, which we expressly named as our model, and which I stated was a purely financial arrangement, notably giving no right to England or France to interfere in the affairs of Turkey. We did not think it necessary to introduce into the Declaration or the Convention any reference to a claim which had not been put for-
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  ward, and for which we did not conceive that any occasion had been given. In reply to the second part of the Question of the right hon. Baronet, I have to say that the Russian reservations will be found in Nos. 17, 19, 21, and 24 of the Egyptian Blue Book, which has been, or will be, distributed this afternoon. The third part of the Question has been already answered by my noble Friend the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs some days ago.
  SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH: The third part of the Question has not been entirely answered. In the Papers circulated on Saturday there were certain extracts from Lord Northbrook's Report recommending an increase in the financial powers of the Egyptian Government and the improvement of the administration of Egypt. I wish to ask, if the right hon. Gentleman will permit me, whether the whole of Lord Northbrook's recommendations on this subject have now been published, or whether any further extracts from his Report dealing with these matters will be published? With regard to the first part of the Question—the answer to which I am afraid I cannot consider satisfactory—I should like to ask, Whether the House is to understand that no communications have passed between Her Majesty's Government and the Powers on the question whether the proposed Guarantee will or will not involve International interference with the affairs of Egypt?
  MR. M'COAN: The right hon. Gentleman does not seem to have answered any single point in the Question which I asked him. The right hon. Gentleman has said that this Convention was framed upon the Turkish Convention of 1855. I read that Convention carefully this morning, and I found nothing whatever that touches the present subject.
  MR. GIBSONalso rising to interrogate the right hon. Gentleman—
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS): I cannot undertake to reply to so many Questions at once.
  MR. GIBSONcontended that the right hon. Gentleman had not said that any provision in any shape or form had been made to carry out his assurance. In the course of his statement on Wednesday last, the right hon. Gentleman,

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  referring to the Guarantee, not only-said that it did not involve International interference, but used these words— "Neither did we object to it, provided it did not involve International interference." He wished to know how the Government had become satisfied on that point?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS)said, the right hon. Baronet had asked him a very fair Question, and he had answered it. It was not his duty to go beyond the limits of the Question in his reply; and therefore he did not think it necessary to quote other parts of his statement to which the right hon. Gentleman had not referred. The Government had not deemed it necessary to introduce into the Declaration or Convention any reference to a claim which had not been put forward. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. M'Coan) then asked him whether, in the absence of any such provision, any other Guarantee had been obtained. He (Mr. Childers) thought that was clearly covered by his answer, which was "No."
  MR. M'COAN: Then I may take it for granted that there is no assurance or Guarantee against International interference?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS): No.
  MR. GORSThoped the House would receive the fullest information on the subject.
  SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH: The hon. Gentleman has not answered my last Question.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS)said, he apologized to the right hon. Baronet for omitting to answer his, among such a shoal of Questions. It was not intended to lay any part of Lord Northbrook's Re-port on the Table.

  PARLIAMENT—PALACE OF WESTMINSTER —THE SMOKING ROOM.
  MR. ONSLOWasked the Junior Lord of the Treasury, Whether he would use his influence with the Chief Commissioner of Works, to confer a favour on many Members of the House, by removing the large pictures in the Smoking Room, and to substitute in their place large maps of different portions of Her Majesty's Empire?
  MR. HERBERT GLADSTONE: The First Commissioner would have no objection to comply with the wish of the hon. Member provided that there was a general desire among hon. Members to substitute maps for the pictures now in the Smoking Room. But it does not appear that there is such a desire.

  GENERAL GORDON'S DIARIES.
  MR. BOURKEasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether he has now any statement to make with respect to "handing over to his relatives" Vol. 6 of General Gordon's Journal; whether this has been done; and, whether he has received any replies from General Gordon's relatives on the subject?
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: I am still in communication with Sir Henry Gordon on this subject, and I hope very shortly to be able to make a statement to the House. It is possible we may not be able finally to consider the question of the disposal of these diaries until the other five are received, which, as we have heard from Lord Wolseley, have been sent by the mail of March 10.

  FRANCE AND CHINA—HOSTILITIES— INTERNATIONAL LAW—THE RIGHT OF SEARCH.
  MR. BOURKEasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether Her Majesty's Government will ascertain whether the French Government have given the same directions as to searching German ships on the high seas as those which have been acted upon with respect to British vessels?
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: The French Government have notified to the German Government their intention to exercise the right of search of neutral vessels. The notifications to this effect, which have been published in the German Official Gazette, show that the communications received by the German Government from the French Government are similar to those received by Her Majesty's Government from the French Ambassador in London upon this subject.

  SUSPENSION OF EVICTIONS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  MR. MACFARLANEasked the Secretary of State for the Home Depart-

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  ment, If, the Government having decided not to bring in the promised Bill dealing with the land question in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland before Easter, he will be good enough to say how soon after Easter it is proposed to introduce it?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT,in reply, said, it was hardly possible for him to fix an exact date; but he hoped it would not be long dalayed.

  CENTRAL ASIA—ENGLAND AND RUSSIA—THE RUSSO-AFGHAN FRONTIER.
  MR. MACFARLANEasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, If Her Majesty's Government, having acquiesced in the continued occupation by Russian troops of several places alleged to be within the Afghan frontier, any steps are being taken to ascertain whether those places are within the frontier or not; whether the question is to remain undecided until an agreement has been arrived at between the Russian Commissioner and Sir Peter Lumsden, and if any positive date has been fixed for the arrival of the Commissioner to represent Russia; and, further, what course it is proposed to take in the event of the two Commissioners being unable to agree; if in such case the points in dispute will be referred to some neutral arbitrator?
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: I do not think that there would be any advantage in my going into these matters at the present moment; and I am, therefore, unable to reply to the hon. Member's Question.
  MR. MACFARLANE: May I ask the noble Lord, if the House is to understand that so long as Russia neglects or fails to send a Commissioner to meet Sir Peter Lumsden, so long shall she be allowed to remain in possession of the places she now holds? I wish, also, to ask the noble Lord, if he can answer it without detriment to the public service, if when the original agreement between Russia and this country was made for the appointment of a Delimitation Commission, any approximate date was agreed upon for the Russian Commissioner to meet Sir Peter Lumsden; and, if he will state what that date was—I do not say to a day, but a month—and, whether any, and what, reason Russia has given for not keeping to that date?
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: No, Sir; I am afraid I cannot answer that Question.
  SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFFasked, Whether Her Majesty's Government have taken any steps to cause the agreement or arrangement with the Government of Russia, relating to the respective positions of Russian, English, and Afghan troops on the frontier of Afghanistan, and now resting on a verbal assurance by the Russian Minister to the British Ambassador, to be recorded in a formal Document, bearing the signatures of authorized Representatives of the Russian and British Governments; and, if so, whether such a Document has been drawn up and signed?
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: No, Sir; Her Majesty's Government have not done so.
  SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF: Are we, then, to understand that the agreement or arrangement, on which depends the issue of peace or war, depends upon the verbal assurance of the Foreign Minister of Russia?
  [No reply.]

  FIJI—MORTALITY, &c.
  MR. CROPPERasked the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether Her Majesty's Government have received any Reports or Despatches from Sir William des Vœux, relative to the mortality alleged to exist among the people of Fiji, and also to the labour questions connected with the Native administration of the Colony; and, if so, whether he would lay such Correspondence upon the Table?
  MR. EVELYN ASHLEY,in reply, said, he hoped very shortly to lay the Papers referred to on the Table.

  ACCIDENTS IN MINES—REPORT OF THE ROYAL COMMISSION.
  MR. J. LOWTHERasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether, having regard to recent explosions in mines, the Report of the Royal Commission on Accidents in Mines could be accelerated so as to permit of some legislation on the subject being undertaken during the present Session of Parliament?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT,in reply, said, he regretted very much the long-continued delay in the presenta-

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  tion of the Report. He had frequently urged that it should be accelerated, and he had received recently assurances that it might be soon expected, and he hoped that would be fulfilled.

  CENTRAL ASIA—THE RUSSO-AFGHAN FRONTIER—REPORTED DISTURBANCE AT PENJDEH.
  MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether there is information of any disturbance at Penjdeh; and, whether Her Majesty's Government have any information that the Russian officers have been exciting disturbances at Penjdeh; and, whether it is true, as reported in The Daily News, that Her Majesty's Government are prepared to assent to the Russian occupation of Penjdeh?
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: No such information as that referred to in the first part of the hon. Member's Question has reached Her Majesty's Government. In regard to the further Question, of which the hon. Member gave me private Notice just before the House met, I think I must, as usual, ask him for Notice.

  EGYPT (WAR IN THE SOUDAN)—GENERAL GRAHAM'S FORCES—ACTION NEAR SUAKIN (MARCH 22).
  COLONEL STANLEYasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether he has received any further news from General Graham; and, whether, without detriment to the public service, he will communicate the same to the House?
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: I have only received one telegram from General Graham since those which were published in the papers this morning. This telegram has been sent to the newspapers, and has probably been already published in the evening papers. It is as follows:—
  "From Lieutenant General Sir Gerald Graham to the Secretary of State for War.
  "Suakin, March 23, 1885, 12.5 A.M.
  "Following to Wolseley, March 22:—
  "Following just received from M'Neill, 9 P.M.:—' Berkshire—Killed, Lieutenant Swinton and 12 men. Marines—eight men killed, 12 wounded. Navy—Killed, Lieutenant Seymour, six men. Royal Engineers—Captain Romilly and Lieutenant Newman killed. Indian Contingent—about 25 killed, including Major Von Beverhondt, and 70 wounded.
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  "'It is impossible at present to get further information. Enemy broke into square of zereba, which was imperfectly formed. Attack lasted about 20 minutes. Enemy lost near 1,000. Very great loss in transport camels, horses, and mules; and no firing from enemy at present.'
  "On first hearing firing, at 2.45 P.M., I ordered out Guards, except one battalion previously despatched to Hasheen with convoy. Remaining battalions, with Horse Artillery, advanced two miles towards zereba, and were retired on receipt of telegram from M'Neill. Two battalions go out to-morrow with further supplies. I shall accompany Guards, and will send further details."

  POST OFFICE—SIXPENNY TELEGRAMS.
  DR. CAMERONasked the Postmaster General, Whether he is yet in a position to make any communication to the House with regard to the introduction of sixpenny telegrams?
  MR. SHAW LEFEVRE,in reply, said, that, having found it impossible to deal with the matter without amending the Telegraph Act, he had given Notice that he would to-morrow ask leave to introduce a Bill on the subject; and if he could bring it on at a reasonable hour he would take the opportunity of stating the intention of Her Majesty's Government.

  PARLIAMENT—PALACE OF WESTMINSTER —WESTMINSTER HALL.
  SIR HERBERT MAXWELLasked the Junior Lord of the Treasury, Whether he is aware that few honourable Members of this House have seen the complete design of the late Sir Charles Barry for the Houses of Parliament; and, whether he will cause a Copy of the general elevation to be placed in the Library before the Committee now sitting comes to a decision?
  MR. HERBERT GLADSTONE,in reply, said, all the drawings of the completed Houses of Parliament, according to the design of the late Sir Charles Barry, which are in the custody of the Office of Works, will be placed in the Tea Room.
  MR. CAUSTONasked, Whether, in order to enable Members to judge of the effect of the west side of Westminster Hall were the works to be carried out there to be limited to restoring the buttresses and flying buttresses, he will, before the House is asked to decide upon the question of restoration, give instructions to have the painted screens in the two central bays removed, and the fly-

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  ing buttress flanking them temporarily finished in similar style to the pinnacles now exposed to view?
  MR. HERBERT GLADSTONE: If, after the Westminster Hall Committee has presented its Report, hon. Members are desirous that my hon. Friend's proposal should be carried out, the First Commissioner sees no objection to it.

  EGYPT (FINANCE, &c.)—THE INTERNATIONAL ARRANGEMENT.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: I am anxious once more to repeat to the Prime Minister the Question I have put before him more than once; and that is whether he will consent to defer the discussion on the Egyptian Financial Arrangement until after Easter? I will remind the right hon. Gentleman that the Papers, which have been so long promised, are only now in the House, and have not yet been distributed to Members.
  MR. GLADSTONE: With regard, Sir, to the question of fact, the bulk of the Papers have been in the hands of hon. Members since Friday evening, and were distributed on Saturday morning. I ought to have said that they have been accessible since Friday evening. A small number are, as I understand, only now accessible.
  MR. GIBSON: I asked for the Papers, and was told they were not here.
  MR. GLADSTONE (after consulting The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER): Then, Sir, they are not accessible yet; but I believe some portions have been accessible and have been distributed, but, I admit, no circulation of them, and it will begin to-morrow morning. That is the state of the case; but the bulk of the Papers were distributed on Saturday, earlier than the Foreign Office expected to be able to do so. As the right hon. Gentleman (Sir Stafford Northcote) has repeated his Question, I must refer him to the answer which I gave on Friday. I do not enter now into detail, because I believe the right hon. Gentleman intends to give an opportunity which will, perhaps, be more regular.

  ADJOURNMENT—NEW RULES OF PROCEDURE (RULE 2).
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: Then, Sir, not wishing to interfere with the Business of the House more than I
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  can help, but feeling the great importance of this question, I have to request leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite question of urgent public importance — namely, the arrangements proposed for the discussion of the Draft Convention relating to Egyptian Affairs.
  MR. SPEAKERasked, if it was the pleasure of the House that the right hon. Gentleman be heard?
  MR. GLADSTONE: We do not object.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: Sir, if it were only a question of the convenience of private Members, I should certainly not bring the matter before the House; but I feel that this is really a matter of very great public importance, and unless time is given before the discussion to which we are all looking forward neither the House nor the country will be able properly to become acquainted with the issues that are at stake, and the House will not be in a proper position to deal with the subject. This is not really a question of the interests of the bondholders. If it were a question of a few persons, and we were well acquainted with the circumstances of the case, it might be possible, in the course of a few days, easily to master the subject; but we have to look to matters far beyond the mere arrangement with the bondholders. We have to consider what the effect of such an arrangement before us may be on the future relations of this country with Egypt, and the position of this country with regard to the Suez Canal. We are at present kept to a very great extent in ignorance of what has taken place on this matter; for although the right hon. Gentleman says the bulk of the Papers have been accessible to the House since Friday evening last, there must be a very important section of the Papers with which we have not yet been made acquainted, such as those which refer to the proceedings since the 9th of February until the time of the conclusion of the Convention, on the 17th of March. If we are to depend upon the information we can get by Questions addressed to Ministers, we find very great difficulty indeed in getting that information which really opens the case to us. In this case it is peculiarly important, when we are dealing with that which must affect us in future years, that we should look

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  carefully into the meaning and probable operation of clauses which have been agreed to after long discussion—a discussion of more than two years, in fact— and of which the motives are not fully explained to us. The right hon. Gentleman, whenever any question is raised with regard to Egypt, is in the habit of referring us back to the fact that all the Egyptian policy took its rise in the policy which established the Dual Control in Egypt. If out of that have grown all our present difficulties, it ought to make us all the more careful how we sanction other arrangements which may prove similarly, or even more disastrous. With regard to the question of the finances of Egypt, we want to know and to judge for ourselves by observation what the arguments of the Foreign Powers were, what the arguments of the British authorities were which brought about the Settlement it took so long to bring about. We are anxious that nothing should be done in this Settlement which will lay us open to the dangers that must attend a Multiple Control or intervention. Are we secure from that, or are we not? When we listened to the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer last Wednesday we imagined that we should find when the Papers were laid before us that the interference or interposition of other Powers was entirely barred; but when we look at the Papers which are presented we have difficulty in finding any reference to the point; and when we ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether there is any definite provision on the subject, he says—"No; it is not necessary." Why, Sir, it is necessary, or it may very easily become necessary, from the circumstances of the case. It is very easy to form some anticipation of what might happen within the next two years which would not only justify but require the Egyptian Government to call for a new Commission, to which all the Powers would be invited, and that Commission would go into the whole of the financial arrangements of Egypt, and, therefore, into the administration of the country. It does seem to me that, as regards the dangerous possibility of any such interposition, it is most necessary that we should have a full opportunity of carefully discussing the subject, and thrashing it out in this House, in order that we may see, and the people of this
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  country may see, what engagements the Government are entering into, and what are the provisions made for guarding against those dangers to which I have referred. I would call the attention of the House to the remarkable fact that not only is there a Convention with regard to the financial arrangements, but that our attention is particularly challenged to the fact that we are about to enter into a new arrangement for establishing regulations with regard to the Suez Canal. That is a matter which is vital to the interests of this country. It is a matter in regard to which we should have something further to guide us than what is contained in Earl Granville's Circular of 1883. That document itself, however, shows the necessity for further information. Its points are full of difficult questions and pitfalls, with respect to which we must be on our guard. If the House will look at the eight parts it contains, they will find that there are questions there which might give trouble every day, every month, every year. I do not know how we are to deal with this matter. The Government are, I admit, within their right; they are acting perfectly in accordance with the usage of Parliament in entering into an Agreement with other Powers without coming, as a preliminary measure, to this House; but when we have notice given that such a thing is going to be done, we are most anxious that we should have full information, and should obtain it while we have, to a certain extent, the power still in our hands; because, although we cannot deal with the Treaty that may be made with respect to the Suez Canal, we can deal with the Convention now before us with respect to financial matters, and are perfectly within our right in asking, before being called upon to discuss this question, to be allowed to discuss the question of the Treaty with regard to the navigation of the Suez Canal. We have a right to ask that before pledging ourselves to the financial question. It is necessary, the Prime Minister says, that the first step should be taken without delay towards sanctioning this financial arrangement. But why should we be in a hurry? He says there will still be time for us to consider the other stages of the Bill. But what is so curious is that the reason he gives for its being important that we

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  should take the first step now is a reason which almost excludes the possibility, or, at least, renders it extremely difficult, to reopen the question. He says the other Powers are waiting to see what we do. He practically says Parliament must give the first indication of its willingness to accept this Convention, and until it has done that the other Powers will not move. But, if this be so, have we not a right to say, give us time before we commit ourselves? If the right hon. Gentleman is correct in saying that it is necessary we should move early in order to dispose the other Powers to move at all, does it not show how important our first move is? If we are forced to discuss this matter on Thursday or Monday next, without the amount of consideration which the Easter Recess will afford, we shall find that we have committed ourselves in such a manner that, though we may not technically be bound, Her Majesty's Government will have a strong argument to show that we are. I do entreat the right hon. Gentleman to do justice to that which I am sure is the feeling of the great mass of the people of this country, as it is of hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House, and give us an opportunity of considering the important documents bearing on the question. We have had a part of the Papers laid on the Table on Friday. This is not a time when we have much leisure, and we have as yet scarcely had an opportunity of looking at these Papers, and there are still others to come. These are not Papers that can be merely read—they must be read and re-read, and compared backwards and forwards with the negotiations that took place and that proved fruitless some months ago, and with other matters. It is, therefore, extremely important that we should have an opportunity of examining the whole subject and coming to a definite conclusion with regard to it. I beg to move the adjournment of the House.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— (Sir Stafford Northcote.)
  MR. GLADSTONE: As the right hon. Gentleman, I hope, understands, I make no objection to his having moved the adjournment on this occasion. I think, if I may say so, that comparing it with other occasions when Motions for
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  Adjournment have been made, it stands in a very favourable position, because it exactly exemplifies the sort of case which the Rule was made to meet. The right hon. Gentleman is quite within his right in raising the question of time, if he thinks it proper that the House should be asked to take into its serious consideration the Convention which has been framed by Her Majesty's Government, and has been signed by the Powers of Europe. What is the point at issue between us? It is not the question whether we should proceed on Thursday or on Monday. We should certainly extremely regret to postpone the preliminary Resolution from Thursday; but I do not say we would not have consented to postponing it to Monday by way of accommodation. But it is of very great importance that we should go on with the preliminary Resolution on Thursday, and I am afraid the stumbling block between us is that, whereas the right hon. Gentleman declines to give any judgment on this question before the Easter Recess, and has signified that Monday, the 13th of April, was the day on which he would be prepared to give a decision, we, speaking on the 23rd of March, three weeks earlier, feel it to be our absolute and bounden duty, as the persons responsible for the conduct of public affairs, to ask the House to consider this question, and to give a definite vote upon it before they separate for the Easter Recess. Sir, I would urge, for the sake of clearness, that we should put out of the way what the right hon. Gentleman has said with regard to the Suez Canal Convention. There is no great haste with regard to the Suez Canal Convention, such as we plead with regard to the main portions of this Agreement. The case of the Suez Canal Convention I will put aside in a few words. In the first place, the House is not called upon to give any vote whatever with respect to our proceedings in relation to the Suez Canal. We proceed in relation to the Suez Canal upon our general responsibility. That is my first point—that the House will neither gain nor lose anything in regard to the Suez Canal by the vote which we ask it to give before the Easter Recess upon the pecuniary operations of the Convention now concluded. Then, of course, arises this suggestion in the minds of hon. Members. They might

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  say—"You intend to deal with this great commercial subject in the dark, and to give us no opportunity of learning what are your views in respect to it before we find ourselves finally committed." To that question we give the most explicit answer. Upon almost every point of that subject, ever since January 5, 1883, the views of the Government have been definitely before the House in the despatch of Earl Granville, dated on that day. There is, I believe, hardly anything in point of particularity that we could add to that despatch, with the exception of one point, I think, which it would be quite easy to explain to the House at any time, and with regard to which, in my opinion, it is most just and fair that the House should be aware of our views before we proceed to any definite arrangement. Of our views in general it is aware; and I have not learned that there is any disposition to question them, or to enter into any conflict with them. But if there is, the House will have an opportunity, as it has had for two years, and that opportunity has not yet passed away. So much with regard to the Suez Canal part of the arrangement. It has really nothing whatever to do with the point now at issue between the right hon. Gentleman and the Government. The right hon. Gentleman says that it is not an affair of the bondholders only. That is most entirely and absolutely true. The bondholders have a material interest in this Convention; and it is desirable in their interests, no doubt, that the judgments of the different Legislatures should not be delayed. But, as far as they are concerned, their interest in the Convention would certainly not have led the Government to the very positive conclusions at which they had arrived with respect to the necessity of proceeding forthwith in this matter. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman meant to make a complaint of the answers given by Ministers to Questions when put as insufficient, or whether he only meant that from their nature they do not admit of giving a full explanation of this subject. I agree that the nature of Question and Answer does not admit of giving a full exposition of the views of the Government in reply; but I must say with some regret that the manner in which the answers of the Government
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  on points of delicacy and importance are now almost habitually received with jeers and shouts—certainly in a portion of the House, but not in the portion in which the right hon. Gentleman sits; and it has not received any countenance whatever from him—but this manner certainly does constitute a serious difficulty and addition to the answering of Questions, and may compel the Government to adopt more restricted rules than they have hitherto, in their desire to accommodate the House, been willing to act upon. The right hon. Gentleman says that now is not the proper time for the people of this country to consider the important matters at issue in this Convention; and I, who am always contending that this House is overdone, and that this country is overdone, and has more work on its hands than it can satisfactorily get through, I am not the man to contend with the right hon. Gentleman that we are not always in a hurry with important questions. There are very few subjects indeed with respect to which that is not true. But these things are relative. What we ask is, that the House should, not less than a week after being in possession of the Papers submitted by the Government, proceed to give a vote upon them. That is the request of the Government. I would not urge that request against the right hon. Gentleman, excepting under the pressure of the most commanding considerations; but I am obliged to urge it, and I am obliged to adhere to it. I contend that, viewing the way in which the House of Commons has to transact its Business, and according to our ordinary rules and usages, those Papers, which are not of very great bulk, and the principal part of which, with the exception of 23 pages, has been in the hands of Members since Saturday—I cannot say that according to Parliamentary usage it can be considered as an insufficient time. We are absolutely bound as far as we are concerned, and it is my declaration to ask the House not to require more than sufficient time. The right hon. Gentleman says we must take care—and he is quite justified in saying it—that some past transactions go back to roots of long standing, and that we must take care that we do not have new roots planted. That is perfectly just and sound; and it expresses the desire we entertain that the most vigilant

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  care of this House should be applied in every matter relating to this tangled and difficult Egyptian business. But do not let us exaggerate the effect of this Convention. What is it that the House is about to commit itself to? It is about to commit itself to an International Guarantee. The amount to which we are to be committed is not a very large one; I believe the ultimate amount to which we are committed will be only £1,500,000; whereas the Guarantee, being a joint and several one, so far as we are concerned, there is, of course, a liability for the whole sum; and, further, on my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer no doubt will fall the burden of making a working arrangement, just as in 1855 the working arrangement of the Anglo-Turkish Loan devolved on the Chancellor of the Exchequer of that day. So far as I know, the points—the very material points—that the House has to consider, for its own sake, with the despatch which we ask it to observe are, first of all, the Guarantee; and, secondly, that in connection with that Guarantee there is an arrangement that during the period of two years we are to endeavour both to ascertain, and so far as possible to promote, the improvement of the real condition of Egyptian finance, so that there shall be no longer the question of the capacity of Egypt to bear or not to bear this or that charge. That, Sir, I believe, is the arrangement to which we ask the House to commit itself. The right hon. Gentleman says that he expected that the interference of the other Powers would be barred by some condition in the Agreement. I do not follow the right hon. Gentleman into that matter, because I think it is not quite ad rem. We are now considering the time at which we should take this question, and not the arrangement itself; otherwise I should be prepared to give a very conclusive answer.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: I only used it as an illustration of the difficulty of understanding the point.
  MR. GLADSTONE: So I understood it; but the whole argument would likewise be an illustration of the time required for the consideration of the Agreement. Therefore I take the liberty of passing that question by; but I make no reproach. Then we come back to the question—What is it that prevents
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  the Government from acceding to the request of the right hon. Gentleman? I do not wish to argue this in a grudging spirit; but, in the first place, I admit he has every title to urge on his own account, and as the Representative of a large Party in this House, and every title to urge on account of the forbearance which he has shown in waiting patiently for the conclusion of the arrangements, which were not in our hands, but in those of other Powers, and with respect to which Parliament has been subjected to a delay which might have provoked some impatience. The reason why we take our position is this: we do not think that it is fair to expect Foreign Powers to act in this matter until the House of Commons leads the way. We have the principal responsibility. Sir, we have had more than the principal responsibility. For us this has been a matter of anxiety and solicitude all along, reaching to the very highest point; but as to the Foreign Powers it is quite different. Their position has been the position of the man in Lucretius—
  "Suave, mari magno, turbantibus æquora ventis, E terrâ magnum alterius spectare laborem."
  To them it was a small matter whether this question went forward at a snail's pace or at a full canter. [Mr. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: Hear, hear!] The hon. Member for Eye cheers. He has at last got an inkling of what the matter really is. But for us it was very different indeed; because we were those who were tumbled about upon the sea in the storms and tempests, while the Foreign Powers, if they had chosen, were at liberty to stand on the shore and look on as calm spectators. Why are we in this great anxiety? Because the time has come when every expedient has been exhausted which could honourably be adopted for the purpose of staving off to a future day the financial difficulties of Egypt, and of avoiding Egyptian bankruptcy—Egyptian bankruptcy in a country where financial confusion might come also to mean confusion not financial, and other than financial—and where, whatever consequences ensued, be they financial or be they other than financial, it is upon us—not upon this Government alone, but on the Government of this country, whatever it might be, or the Parliament of this country, whatever it might be—that the whole difficulty really will fall. It comes to

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  that plain statement of the case. I am concerned to meet the wishes of the right Gentleman; but I cannot undertake to risk Egyptian bankruptcy in order to meet him. It is not at a future and a distant date that these difficulties may occur. Last year we stated, and with perfect truth, that the condition of Egyptian finance was very urgent, and so it was. Still, there were expedients —that of withholding the payments due to the Exchequer of this country, and that of withholding the Sinking Fund, which was undoubtedly a measure of the Egyptian Government which we could not refuse to approve, but which undoubtedly was a very strong measure, and which excited strong adverse feeling in the minds of the Powers of Europe. Whatever were the merits of these measures, they have gone by. We are at the end of our tether; there are no more expedients than can be used; and in the month of April, unless this House gives us the means by its Resolution—and that, we are convinced, will be sufficient—Egypt will be called upon as a matter of public faith to meet demands which she will have no means of meeting unless we are able to make such proper arrangements as are contemplated by this Convention. The other day the hon. Member for Mid Lincolnshire (Mr. Chaplin) observed to me, in the form of a Question, that I appeared to have forgotten that the House of Commons was not bound to approve the arrangement made by the Government, and that it might refuse its assent to the Convention. But I do not think, with all respect, that the hon. Member quite saw the true bearing of his own Question. Sir, if we are responsible for the affairs of this country, we cannot undertake, and we will not undertake, to face Egyptian bankruptcy through a failure to recognize the engagement into which we have conditionally entered. We cannot do it. Perhaps it will be said that others may be ready for that; and I suppose that is the case with an hon. Gentleman of great consideration on the other side of the House—I do not see him in his place—the hon. Member for Portsmouth (Mr. Bruce), who had given Notice before I entered the House to-night of a Motion condemning this Agreement. [Opposition cheers.] Very well; take care of your cheers, I advise you. ["Oh, oh!"] I do not
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  think that is an uncommon method of advice in this House; and I do not see why I should not give it to the hon. and gallant Member for West Sussex (Sir Walter B. Barttelot) without being offensive. That hon. and gallant Member will understand my meaning directly. I will tell the hon. and gallant Member for West Sussex that if he is to succeed in his object, and if he induces the House to put a negative on this Agreement, which it is perfectly and absolutely entitled to do—we have done nothing which in the least degree impairs the Constitutional right of the House—it has full power to refuse its sanction to the engagement into which we have conditionally entered. But if it does so, and if in consequence the management of Egyptian finance so pass into hands other than ours, then I tell the hon. and gallant Member for West Sussex, and I tell the right hon. Gentleman opposite, that time is more valuable even to them than it is to us. And when they assume the responsibility which the hon. Member for Portsmouth is so anxious to bring upon them, and undertake to make some better Convention and devise some better arrangement than ours—I tell them they will have neither a week, nor a day, nor an hour to spare. Now, it will be understood why I say that if the House agrees to the Convention and expects us to proceed with Egyptian affairs, hon. Members will not be surprised at our laying before them very explicitly what we believe to be the absolute necessities of the case. But if the House desires that not we but hon. Gentlemen opposite should proceed with the management of those affairs, and that they should take our places for that purpose, it is still more necessary that the vote of the House under which they would receive their title should not be delayed. And I venture to say that if that contingency should come about, not one of the Gentlemen sitting on the opposite Bench, who may doubt now the soundness of the declaration that I am making, will doubt any longer after he has been for 48 hours in contact with the actual necessities of the case. I do not say a word at this moment about the Convention. Let it be the best or the worst that could possibly have been made in the circumstances, I have argued strictly on the question of time. I have said

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  that nothing but necessity would have led me to decline the request of the right hon. Gentleman. That necessity is absolute and inexorable; and I trust that the House, whatever course it may take on the merits of the Instrument, will recognize that the responsible Ministers of the Crown are not only entitled, but bound, to give their judgment in a case of such gravity and such emergency as to the time and moment at which it is their duty to ask the sanction of the House to the arrangement into which we have conditionally entered.
  LORD JOHN MANNERS: The House, I think, will perceive that the real argument of the right hon. Gentleman for opposing the postponement of the discussion on the Convention till after Easter is simply this—We have brought the financial affairs of Egypt into such a state of hopeless confusion that if the House of Commons does not shut its eyes and close its ears and at once accept this Convention Egyptian bankruptcy must necessarily ensue. It is with this pistol held at our heads that the right hon. Gentleman turns round on the House and says—"I cannot give you time to consider this important proposal. You must accept it without further delay." That was really the right hon. Gentleman's principal argument, though no doubt there were minor arguments woven into his most skilful speech. Among them was this—that all the Foreign Powers are now agreed on this proposal; that it is essential that we should take the lead, and that the Powers of Europe are waiting on our deliberations and decisions. I would put this question to the right hon. Gentleman—Is it intended that this Convention, and all the financial arrangements depending on it, shall come into operation as soon as the British House of Commons has given its first vote; or is it intended that the sanction of all the Great Powers of Europe which have Parliaments shall remain subject to a similar Parliamentary vote? If he tells us that the Convention will not come into practical operation until the assent of the Parliaments of Prance and Italy, for example, has been obtained, then I put this question to the right hon. Gentleman—if we deliberate on this Convention now and give our sanction to it, when will the sanction of the Italian Parliament be obtained? I find from the papers that
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  the Italian Parliament is on the eve of adjourning till a distant date in April. What, then, is to happen to the Convention? The right hon. Gentleman tells us that Egypt will be in a state of bankruptcy in the month of April. But the Italian Parliament will not have an opportunity of considering the Convention until nearly the end of April. And that may also be the case, for aught I know, with respect to the Parliament of France. As to Germany and Austria, I do not feel so confident. But what, then, becomes of this plea of urgency, that England must take the first step and sanction the Convention, and then that all the other Powers will follow? I say that the statement of the right hon. Gentleman cannot be taken without further proof; and that this plea as respects foreign countries requires far greater confirmation than the right hon. Gentleman has given us. But with regard to the condition of the finances of Egypt, can anything be conceived more damaging than the confession which the right hon. Gentleman has made? The finances of Egypt, under his fostering care, are in such a state that not a week or a fortnight's delay can be permitted; and there lies, according to his reasoning, on all who presume even to discuss the question in a serious and practical manner the responsibility of Egyptian bankruptcy. I say, on the contrary, that it is not the House of Commons that will be responsible for the bankruptcy of Egypt, but the responsibility will lie at the doors of that Government which, for the last three years, has so mismanaged Egyptian finance and Egyptian affairs generally that they now come to this House, and, holding a loaded pistol at its head, seek to deprive us of all legitimate opportunity of discussing this great question. But is it correct, as the right hon. Gentleman has represented to us to-night, that this is a mere financial transaction, by which, at the outside, England will only become responsible for something like £1,250,000 sterling? Why, if this were only a financial arrangement, and one involving a responsibility on our part, even for £5,000,000, I have no doubt that the British House of Commons would rise to the emergency and meet the difficulty. But that is not the difficulty or the danger that we apprehend; nor is it the condition of affairs against which we feel bound to

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  guard. Sir, the danger is—and the right hon. Gentleman said nothing about it in the whole of his speech—the danger is that by this Convention, in order to secure this apparent limitation of the responsibility of England to £1,250,000, engagements shall have been contracted with the Great Powers of Europe, by which the whole of the vast sacrifices which this country has been making, is now making, and will have to make in treasure, and in what is still more important—blood may be thrown away; and that for the sake of that financial easement to the Treasury of Egypt, and for the sake of being able to say to the people of England that, after all, it is only a matter of £1,250,000, future complications with the Powers of Europe may have been entered into. That is the real difficulty that we feel in discussing off-hand the question of this Convention; and that is the real reason why we think it is essential in the interests not only of this Party or of the House of Commons, but in the interests of the country and of the Empire, that further time should be given for the consideration of a question of such great importance.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS): Sir, I will pass by—as I think I now ought to do—the political matters that have been introduced by the noble Lord. But I will reply to so much of his speech as referred to the question of the time at which the debate, and what we hope will be the confirmation of the Convention, ought to take place. The noble Lord has spoken of the affairs of Egypt during the last three years as having been the subject of mismanagement on our part. To that he shall have a full answer when the debate comes on. But I wish to remind the House that two years and a-half ago, before the details of the financial administration of Egypt were a matter of care to us, the estimate of the Controllers General, Sir Auckland Colvin and M. Brédif, was that £8,000,000 would have to be raised to put Egyptian affairs straight; and, therefore, the difference in that respect now is a question between £8,000,000 and £9,000,000—a difference which it will very easy to explain when we come to the subject. The noble Lord made an ingenious argument with respect to the necessity of
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  obtaining Parliamentary sanction to the Arrangement. The noble Lord admits the gravity of the occasion, and the urgency of the case. At any rate, he said nothing to dispute it. But he said it would be impossible that any relief to Egyptian finance could take place and come into practical operation until the Parliaments of the Great Powers assenting to that Arrangement had expressed approval of that assent. Now, I wish to say a few words as to what the present state of the matter is. In the early part of next month, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has said, Egypt will be called upon for certain payments, which it is impossible for her to make under the existing circumstances. Now, the noble Lord would say—"Oh, but the Parliament of Italy, possibly the Parliament of Germany, and possibly the Parliament of France, will not meet until May next; or even later." I understood him to say that the Parliament of Italy is about to adjourn, or has adjourned, for a great length of time. But the answer to that is perfectly plain. If this House approves of the Convention, it will be in the power of the Egyptian Government to borrow a sufficient amount of money to carry them through the next three weeks—to carry them for more than three weeks, probably into the month of April or May. But without that sanction on the part of this Parliament the Egyptian Government will not have the security which will enable them to borrow the money. The question, therefore, is a simple and practical one. Will you deny to the Egyptian Government the approval of the proposals of Her Majesty's Government, under which Egypt will be able to borrow a sufficient sum to meet this expenditure, or will you adopt the Arrangement arrived at by Her Majesty's Government, and enable Egypt to tide over the difficulty? It is simply a practical question of bankruptcy or not on the part of Egypt. If Parliament, within the next few days, adopts the Convention it will not be bankruptcy. If, on the other side, it declines to adopt, or postpones the adoption of the Convention, Egypt will be bankrupt, and others will have to deal with the question. On the showing of the noble Lord himself the case is most urgent, and I hope the House will not refuse an early discussion and decision.
  MR. O'DONNELLsaid, he was inclined to wonder at the anxiety displayed on the Conservative Benches for delay in the final signing, sealing, and delivering of the British surrender to International control. Whether that surrender took place on Thursday next, or on Thursday fortnight, he really could not see that it mattered very much to any British Party. Under the able auspices of the Premier, for whom he had the greatest respect, and who was the uncontrolled master of the liberties of the Members of the House of Commons, although his concentrated influence was not worth a feather's weight in the Councils of Europe—under the able auspices of the Premier, they were placed in that position, that they must surrender all their so-called sacrifices in Egypt to the Powers of Europe. This country lost its position in Europe when its Navy bombarded Alexandria, and it was now losing its Indian Empire in the blood-pools of the Soudan. It appeared that the Conservative Members wanted discussion. He thought that they were a patriotic Party, who wished for action. Was it more talk on the Egyptian Question that was necessary? The real fact of the matter was, as he had said, whether this question was settled before the Easter Recess or after it, they must surrender to the Powers. They might talk of opposing the Powers; but they had not sufficient men to garrison even their Indian Empire. This sham was going on from day to day, and it was a fact which made them the laughing-stock of their enemies, and a source of grief and shame to every Englishman who had a shadow of patriotism with whom he had the honour to be acquainted.
  SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFFsaid, that the Prime Minister took upon himself to rebuke hon. Members sitting on the Opposition side of the House with regard to their treatment of answers given by the Government. He (Sir H. Drummond Wolff) thought a little better example might be set by the Treasury Bench, where he observed that laughing and talking took place while the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War was reading out a list of killed and wounded. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer was, he understood, to be charged with the conduct of the arrangement of this Con-
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  vention. He (Sir H. Drummond Wolff) did not feel his confidence very much increased in the transaction by that announcement, because anyone more unsuccessful than the right hon. Gentleman in dealing with these Egyptian questions he could not conceive. The right hon. Gentleman was charged with the arrangement of the Suez Canal in the first instance, and there he signally failed; he was not successful in the Conference on Egyptian matters; and he (Sir H. Drummond Wolff) could not see why the right hon. Gentleman should now be Chosen as the principal factor in the new arrangement. The right hon. Gentleman had shown complete ignorance of the subject which he was discussing, inasmuch as he had stated that this Guarantee, which they were about to give, was on the same footing as the Anglo-French Guarantee of 1855, with regard to the Turkish Loan. He (Sir H. Drummond Wolff) happened to know a good deal about that arrangement, and he should like to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer and other Ministers to tell the House in what respect the two arrangements were similar? In 1855 there was a clear transaction between England and France to guarantee a loan, the Sultan having assigned certain revenues as security for that loan. In the present case, the Convention referred to the Edict of the Sultan which sanctioned the loan, and the document stated that it was necessary to introduce certain modifications into the Law of Liquidation. It then went on to create new taxes to be raised in Egypt for the purpose of meeting the exigencies of the loan. In addition to that, the Commission of the Caisse, to which had been added Representatives of Russia and Germany, were to furnish accounts and reports of the sums gathered from this new taxation.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS): I may as well remind the hon. Gentleman that the new loan is the first charge on the assigned, and virtually on all the Revenues of Egypt.
  SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFFsaid, he did not say it was not the first charge. That had nothing to do with the question. What he did say was that there were new taxes to be raised for the purpose of meeting the loan. In two years there was to be a final Report

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  to the Powers; and, meanwhile, it was laid down that the Commissioners of the Treasury of the Debt should, 15 days before each payment was due—
  MR. SPEAKER: I must remind the hon. Gentleman that the subject before the House is not the Convention itself, but simply the arrangement for the discussion of the Draft Convention. I hope the hon. Gentleman will see the propriety of confining himself to the Question of the Arrangement as proposed by the Government.
  SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFFsaid, he was trying to show that it was necessary that the House should have a clear elucidation of the point before they discussed the Arrangement; and his contention was that they had no Papers for elucidating the particular difficulty before them. There was another point upon which he wished to speak. The Prime Minister had stated that the portion of the Arrangement with regard to the Suez Canal need not come under purview of the House; and that, as hon. Members were in possession of the views of the Government, owing to Lord Granville's Circular of 1883, there was no occasion to furnish them with any other information before the Government went into the discussion of the matter. He (Sir H. Drummond Wolff) maintained, however, that the arrangement with regard to the Suez Canal did not come under the same category as ordinary Treaty undertakings. The Crown, he admitted, had a perfect right to enter into such International engagements, provided they did not come under the financial cognizance of that House; but he submitted that everything connected with the Suez Canal must come under the financial cognizance of the House. The English Government being, by the purchase of half the shares in 1876, the proprietors of half the Canal, half the revenues would before long become a portion of the ordinary Revenue of this country. Therefore, any arrangement which they might enter into with regard to the Canal might greatly affect the Canal itself, and as such might affect the pecuniary arrangements of this country. He maintained that the Government could not enter into a political arrangement in which the Suez Canal was concerned without the consent of the House, inasmuch as it might affect the pecuniary value of the shares. He
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  did not know whether that question had been discussed by the Government; but hon. Members could not discuss the arrangement now before them unless they had ample information on the point.
  MR. JOSEPH COWENsaid, that when the Prime Minister came to the House and stated that the circumstances of the case were so urgent and commanding that they required the House to give its assent to a Convention such as that provisionally effected with the Powers, within a certain time, a private Member was virtually put to silence, and it was scarcely within the right or obligation of such a one to contest the position. For his own part, he did not wish to argue the question of urgency on this occasion. There might be circumstances unknown to the House that compelled the Government to take this peremptory course, and persons like himself were not in a position to pronounce an opinion upon them. But he must say that the force of the Prime Minister's contention was somewhat weakened by the fact that he had made other declarations to a like effect on former occasions. They were told, not once, but several times last year, that the finances of Egypt were in so critical a state that an immediate decision respecting them was absolutely necessary, and that if the House did not consent to certain arrangements her position would be very precarious. But the necessity for that decision had been got over; and, reasoning from what had been done, the present crisis might probably be got over also by an effort, if the Government felt disposed to make it. The demand made upon them was a very small one, and certainly it was a reasonable one. The Government had taken 12 months or more to settle the terms of the Convention; and surely it was not a great deal to ask that the Representatives of the people should have 12 days to deliberate upon it before they gave to it an assent which would be irrevocable. He thought that that was a most modest request, and regretted that the Government did not see their way to accede to it. The Prime Minister's statement came to this —that they were to legislate in this matter under foreign pressure. The position taken up was somewhat disparaged by the Prime Minister himself,

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  for he had endeavoured to minimize the responsibilities that the Government were about to undertake; but that was not the tone that had been taken on previous occasions when speaking of the Convention, and certainly was not the idea that their Continental critics formed of the Arrangement. They regarded it as a triumph for their diplomacy, and as a defeat for ours. But, however that might be, it was an undoubted fact that the Government were about to create an International Guarantee, and it would not be unreasonable for anyone to suppose that when they consented to this International Guarantee that International Guarantee would carry with it International control. And International control meant International confusion and mischief, discontent, and possibly war. Surely, then, there was nothing exorbitant in the request to allow Parliament time to consider the details of a bargain which covered such momentous consequences to this country, to Egypt, and to Europe. His object, however, was not to discuss the question on its merits, but merely to lodge a protest against the hurry the Government were in in asking for a decision, and to make an inquiry about the Suez Canal. The House knew that the Convention carried with it the right to hold a Conference to re-adjust the position of the Canal—in a word, to internationalize it. They were told, also, that the basis on which the Government would ask for this Internationalization had been set out in the Circular Despatch of Lord Granville. This was all well enough as far as England was concerned, and there might not be much objection to most of the points that had been laid down by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs; but he would like some Minister to inform the House whether the other Powers had agreed that Lord Granville's Despatch should be taken by them as the basis of negotiations in the same way as it was taken by England? If this was not the case, the country would go into a Conference about the Suez Canal, without any guarantee as to the arrangements that might be effected. These arrangements might very seriously concern, not only special interests, but the nation at large.
  MR. GORSTsaid, that the question before the House was a question of
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  time, and upon that question the Government had completely driven the House into a corner. This was not the first time that had been done. The Government were extremely fond of driving them into a corner; and, in doing so, they showed most distinctly the contempt in which they held the House of Commons. He (Mr. Gorst) did not know that the House of Commons deserved much better treatment at the hands of the Government; because when time was given it for the discussion of the Egyptian Question, though many criticisms were delivered, yet, as a whole, it tamely endorsed any course which the Government had hitherto thought fit to pursue. But he would ask the House to contrast the time accorded to it with the time the Government had themselves taken to consider the matter. When Lord North brook came back from Egypt, the Government had not only before them the Report given to the House of Commons, but they had full Reports besides. Did they make up their minds in a week, for that was the time they gave the House of Commons to consider the question? The Government, with full and complete information before them, took considerably more than a week before making their propositions to the Powers of Europe. It was more than five months since Lord Northbrook returned, and more than four months since his full Reports were placed in writing before the Government, and the Government had taken all that time to formulate their plans. It seemed to show but little respect for the House of Commons to ask them to form their judgment within a week. He would like that the House should contrast the time given to the House of Commons with the time given to the Government of France. The Government of France had a whole month given them to consider the propositions of the Government before the Government even pressed them for any reply. When they pressed them they took another fortnight. Why did not the Government then explain to the Government of France the extreme urgency of time? [Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT: They did.] Why should they allow the Government of France to have an entire six weeks before giving a reply? When the Government of France did give their reply, it certainly did not take a long time for the Govern-

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  ment to make up their minds; for on February 4 they issued their last despatch, which was a complete surrender to France. From that time down to the present had been taken up by some sort of negotiations with the Government of France, which they could not at present understand—though perhaps it might be explained in the Papers to be circulated to morrow—before coming to an agreement. When so much time had been given to the Government of France, it was rather hard to ask the House of Commons, under pain of causing bankruptcy to Egypt, to give their consent in one week. If that was the first time in which the Government had acted in that way there might be some excuse for it; but when they were coming perpetually to the House of Commons, asking them to give an important decision at once, that was a very different matter.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: The hon. and learned Member for Chatham (Mr. Gorst) said that Her Majesty's Government had driven the House of Commons into a corner. That may be so; and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has expressed his great regret that it should be so. But the real truth is, the Government have themselves been driven into a corner. The hon. and learned Member said that one of the great faults of the Government was that they allowed the Government of France to delay their answer. I want to know what is the view of the hon. Member as to the relation of the Government of this country to that of France?
  MR. GORSTsaid, he did not say "allow." What he said was that the Government had given France more time.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: Yes, you did; I took the word down at the time. I refer to it, because it is an admirable example of the way in which the hon. and learned Gentleman would have us speak to Foreign Governments— of the way in which he expects the Government of England to treat Foreign Powers, and deal with foreign affairs. The reason of the delay, as everyone knows, is our desire to arrange financial matters with the Governments of Europe, and because they have a right to a voice in the matter. But when the hon. and learned Member and the Conserva-
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  tive Opposition jeer the Government, and ask, What do you mean by allowing the Government of France so many weeks for their answer? I wonder what sort of tone it is intended and expected the Government of England is to take upon this question. The hon. and learned Member asks how long Her Majesty's Government have taken to make up their minds? Why, it is months ago since we made up our minds as to the proposals we should offer to Europe; and if we had been in the position which, no doubt, the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Gorst) will be able to take when he comes to conduct the affairs of this country—to go to France, Germany, Russia, and Italy, and say—"Here are our proposals, and mind you answer them to-morrow. We will not give you another day," then there would have been some ground for the sort of speech which the hon. and learned Gentleman has made on this occasion. Her Majesty's Government, unfortunately, are not in that position. They cannot say to France or Germany," You must answer to-morrow, or we shall have nothing to say to you. "We placed before them the proposals we thought it right to offer, and that was done weeks and months ago. There were differences of opinion which had to be considered and reconciled, and that was all the cause of the delay which has occurred; but it is a delay which has reduced Egypt to the brink of financial ruin. The hon. and learned Gentleman argues as if it were for us to say how many weeks one Power and another should take, and how many weeks the House of Commons should take to consider the matter. But the Government has no power of controlling any of these Governments. Did it never occur to the hon. and learned Member that if the Government had not had the consent of the Foreign Powers, this Loan could never have been made a first charge on the Sinking Fund; and that there was only the option of coming to an agreement with them, in order that the Loan might be a first charge upon the Fund, or a charge at all? It is obvious that the Foreign Powers had to be consulted; but it is also obvious that they should be the masters, in saying what time they should have before they gave their answers. So much for this charge against the Government, that they al-

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  lowed the Government of France to take so much time. Well, this delay having taken place in receiving the answers of the Powers, we had no option in the matter except to accept and present the Arrangement as soon as it was concluded with the Powers of Europe, and to tell the House of Commons that the matter did not admit of a lengthened delay. And now a word upon the remarks of the hon. Member for Newcastle (Mr. Joseph Cowen). The hon. Member says he must have time to consider the matter. There may be people in this House who want time to consider it; but the hon. Member is not one of these. He does not generally want time to form his opinion. That opinion, made up, as it is, at the first moment, I am sorry to say, is generally not very favourable to Her Majesty's Government. What does the hon. Member want time for? The hon. Member says that an International Guarantee means an. International Control, which will be the cause of confusion and every kind of evil. Well, the hon. Member has made up his mind as to that, and therefore there can be no reason for delay in his case. He has condemned the Convention to-night; why, then, does he put in a plea for delay? He does not want Papers. The position in which we are placed is not one of our own making. We have been obliged, against our will, having to deal with a great many European Powers, to delay until a period which brings Egyptian finance to the verge of a very dangerous state of things. We have now, under the circumstances, only to ask the House on their responsibility to come to an early decision upon the subject, because it is absolutely necessary that the affairs of Egypt should not be thrown into inextricable confusion.
  MR. BOURKEsaid, he hoped the House would not be led away by threats of consequences, which he did not believe would follow. The right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down (Sir William Harcourt) had striven to show that the Government had been driven into a corner. But all the consequences of delay, which they were now told would be so terrible, were before Earl Granville in November last, who seemed then to be perfectly calm upon the subject. When asked by the French Government to come to a decision upon the subject
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  of Egyptian finance, he did not seem to be at all in a hurry, or to seem to think that there was the least cause for haste. At that time, when the French Ambassador pressed Earl Granville to state what the English Government intended to do, the noble Earl said that they had been so unsuccessful in their attempts to come to an agreement with France, that there did not seem any use in making propositions. All the confusion which the House was now told was inevitable must have been in the mind of Earl Granville, and must have been seen by him as the existing condition of things, so that if anybody was responsible for the present state of affairs it was the Foreign Office itself, and if blame was to be attached to anybody, it must attach to them for not expediting the negotiations. The right hon. Gentleman also said that months since Her Majesty's Government made up their minds as to the proposals they would submit to Europe. They did make proposals to Europe, it was true, but Europe treated them with perfect contempt; and the extraordinary nature of those proposals, and the manner in which they were received by the Powers, was one of the strongest reasons why the House should ask for full time for consideration. If Her Majesty's Government would but place themselves in the position of the House of Commons, they would, he believed, be amongst the most determined advocates of delay. But it must be remembered that the Government had ample means of obtaining information upon the matter. They had had 14 or 15 months to consider the matter, and they had had experts and other gentlemen at their command, who could set them right upon questions which, like this, involved enormous gravity and difficulty. But even experts themselves differed now upon the most vital points, and the very Agreement the House was called upon to ratify was actually impaired by the admissions of Her Majesty's Government. It was substantially a French Agreement, and Sir Evelyn Baring had said, over and over again, that the estimates of the French experts were altogether untrustworthy. These calculations were so complicated, that it was impossible for the House of Commons to give them their true value without ample time for consideration. They were told that the Agreement was

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  only a financial one; but he did not think anybody could be taken in by that statement. If it were so, the Powers of Europe would not be so anxious to share in it; and it would be the most unjust thing which could be done, because we were face to face with that difficulty which the hon. Member for Newcastle (Mr. Joseph Cowen) seemed to deplore?—namely, International Agreement and International Control. With regard to the question of the Suez Canal, that might possibly be, as the right hon. Gentleman had said, beyond the financial question. He doubted however, whether the French Government would not consider that to be part and parcel of the entire question, and that they would not agree with us on one of these questions apart from the other. He thought, therefore, the House should not be hurried into a decision upon a subject involving such grave issues. He believed that, under the circumstances, any decision which the House might come to at the present time would be of no value, and would only lead to further complications, and land this country in a serious difficulty.
  MR. MITCHELL HENRYsaid, that, in his opinion, it was not so much time for consideration of the Agreement that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite required, as a policy. They wanted an opportunity of going to the country to ascertain whether they could find support for views opposed to the Convention which had been proposed by the Government. The Papers which had been presented to Parliament were by no means voluminous, and could be mastered by anyone of average intelligence in a few hours. The right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down (Mr. Bourke) had evidently mastered them; but, in the course of his speech, had carefully kept out of sight the points which told in favour of the Government. Her Majesty's Government had repeatedly been accused of vacillation; but the Papers showed clearly that they had, in this instance, been exceptionally firm, and very unwillingly granted part of what Prance demanded. They had, it was true, admitted that if, in two years' time, the finances of Egypt should not have improved by the paltry amount of £200,000, an inquiry might be held; but who could doubt that, under the fostering care of England,
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  such an improvement as that would be effected? Another thing evident by the Papers was the extraordinary activity of the Foreign Office; and he thought Lord Lyons must have been hard put to it to find words in which to clothe the hints and instructions given to him to hurry on the French Government to a decision. He believed that this Convention would be happy in its results both for England and Egypt.
  MR. SPEAKERcalled the hon. Member to Order, saying that he was not entitled to pursue that course on a Motion for the adjournment of the House.
  MR. MITCHELL HENRY,in conclusion, said, if it were merely a question of time to enable hon. Gentlemen to make up their minds, he should be happy to assent it; but, feeling that delay was not necessary for that purpose, he should oppose the Motion for the adjournment of the House.
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTONsaid, he rose for the purpose of making a practical suggestion. The Government were in a corner, and asked the House of Commons to get them out of it. The dilemma in which the Government put the House of Commons was that either they must assent to the proposal contained in the Convention, with all the complications that followed in its train, or, as they were told, precipitate the bankruptcy of Egypt. But there was nothing in the Papers to show that the financial affairs of Egypt could not be carried on for a few days, while the House of Commons was considering the important matter placed before them, neither had the Government proved that the payments the Egyptian Government would be called upon to make in the next fortnight were of a pressing and urgent character. On Friday, the Prime Minister used words which clearly indicated that those payments were not of a pressing character, when he said—
  "So strongly has the condition of the persons entitled to indemnities been felt that it has been arranged in the Agreement that the payment of them shall rank as a first charge."
  It was self-evident that the postponement of payment of the indemnities, which had stood over for 18 months, for another 18 days would not make Egypt bankrupt. What, then, were these pressing payments? Having looked through the Papers, he was very sceptical as to the necessity of their assent-

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  ing to the arrangement for the purpose of keeping the country from bankruptcy. He thought they were entitled to ask the Government to telegraph to Sir Evelyn Baring, and ask him what was the excess of payments for the next fortnight over and above the Revenue which the Egyptian Government would have to make. Supposing the Egyptian Government might possibly want an advance of £100,000, would it not be better that some arrangement should be made for advancing such a sum temporarily, for the purpose of carrying on the financial business for the next fortnight, even at the risk of losing it"? But, looking at the matter as a business transaction, -was it not most extraordinary that the Prime Minister should come down and say—"You are to advance £9,000,000 to a Government; and, because that Government is bankrupt, you are not to inquire into the circumstances under which you make the advance." If this transaction stood by itself it would not so much matter; but, unfortunately, it was remarkable that all the financial proposals of Her Majesty's present Advisers were laid before Parliament under such circumstances as to prevent their being discussed. He thought, therefore, the House was entitled to a reply from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or the Prime Minister, undertaking to obtain from the Egyptian Government a definite statement as to what these pressing payments were, and as to the amount that would be actually required by the Egyptian Government within the next few weeks.
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, he did not think that hon. Gentlemen opposite had made out their case for delay. Surely they did not do themselves justice when they said they would not be able to master the details of the Papers to be distributed to-morrow morning before next Thursday. His own impression was that hon. Gentlemen opposite had already made up their minds upon the question, and all they wanted to know was what the country thought of it, so as to enable them to come back after the Recess with a policy before committing themselves upon the matter. The strongest argument in favour of the contention of the Opposition had been used by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he told the House that if they did not agree to this Convention before
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  Easter, Egypt would be bankrupt. Why should not Egypt be bankrupt? He thought it would be a most desirable thing. The errors of the present Government were due to the main fault that they had committed in endeavouring to save the sick man from the consequences of his own acts. There had been a revolution in Egypt; and one advantage of a revolution was that it made a clean sweep of all financial liabilities. Bankruptcy for the Egyptians meant that they would be able to devote their resources to improving their own country, and would not be obliged to pay those large amounts to the bondholders they now had to pay. Sooner or later, he trusted Egypt would be bankrupt, for then she would not come to this country to back her bills.
  MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTsaid, the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department had affected great regard for the rights of the Powers with respect to Egyptian finance; but the right hon. Gentleman forgot that, by the action of the present Government, a great affront was offered to the Powers by the arbitrary suspension of the Sinking Fund last September. He wished to make a protest against the ignominious language used by the Prime Minister at the close of his speech. The Prime Minister thought the House and the country were under an imperious necessity to ratify the Agreement before Easter. Did he mean that this country was now under the coercion of Foreign Powers in this matter? ["Oh, oh!"] Although the Prime Minister could not undertake that the House of Commons should assent to the Agreement, he (Mr. Ash-mead - Bartlett) understood that some such promise had been made to a Foreign Power, and that it was upon that statement that the Agreement was entered into. He could not avoid smiling when the right hon. Gentleman assured the House that it was impossible to ask the Powers for delay, and then proceeded to answer his own argument by stating, through the medium of a well-worn Latin quotation, that the matter was very trifling to them, but of great interest to England. He protested against Parliament being asked to assent to this arrangement without due consideration, when a satisfactory settlement might have been made at any

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  time during the past two years. The House of Commons was asked to vote with its eyes shut, and to assent to the establishment of an insane Internationalization and a Multiple Control, which would be equally fatal to our interests and the interests of the people of Egypt.
  MR. LAINGsaid, he wished to say two words in support of a speedy decision of the question. He did not do so from any Party motive, or any general approval of the policy of the Government in Egypt. But he thought the position of Egypt was so critical that it was the duty of everyone to throw aside all other considerations, and to look simply at what might be proper for the country. He was glad the Government, after what he might almost call the hostile attitude of the European Powers, had come back to that which ought to have been the keystone of the policy of this country—a cordial understanding with Germany. That friendship, however, had only been recently renewed, and the position was still too strained and critical to play any tricks with it. There was no doubt the London Conference caused a great deal of irritation amongst the European Powers, as they felt they were invited upon a fool's errand. What would be the feeling of the Powers now, especially if Egypt-were allowed to fall into bankruptcy, simply because hon. Gentlemen opposite wanted an extra fortnight to try to evolve a policy of their own out of the Blue Books? This was not a question which required time. As a matter of fact, there was nothing in the Blue Books which had not been perfectly well known to the country for the last month or six weeks. The question was between adopting this Convention, or else they had got to face the very much larger question by which we would have to guarantee the whole Egyptian Debt. It seemed to him unpatriotic to run any risks, especially of misunderstanding with those Powers with whom it must be recollected we were bound by international obligations, simply because hon. Gentlemen opposite wanted a little more time to study the Blue Books. A decision ought to be come to on this question, even though Members had to sacrifice their Easter Holidays. He hoped the House would do nothing by which it would expose itself to be misunderstood. When the discussion came
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  on, he would see whether a better policy could be devised; but whatever was done, it was essential that it should be done quickly. He should certainly not assent to the Motion, until he heard what was the alternative policy of the Opposition.
  MR. MACARTNEYsaid, that the Prime Minister had shown a great deal of irritation at the jeers he had evoked earlier in the discussion, and the Secretary of State for the Home Department had read them a lecture on the mode in which they should conduct their relations with. Foreign Powers. He thought all such manifestations were out of place. They did not want to eat humble pie, and they had no intention of bullying foreign countries. He supported the Motion, on the ground of the enormous magnitude of the issues involved in the question which the House were to be asked to dispose of at short notice.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEasked leave to withdraw the Motion for the Adjournment.
  MR. GLADSTONEinquired, whether the right hon. Gentleman would prefer the discussion on the Arrangement being taken on Thursday or Monday?
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: I think either day too early for the proper discussion; but as I understand that Thursday will suit the Government best, I am, therefore, ready to accept Thursday.
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid: It may, then, be taken as settled that Thursday is fixed for this purpose.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

ORDERS OF TEE DAY.

  PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (REDISTRIBUTION) (re-committed) BILL.— [BILL.49.]
  (Mr. Gladstone, The Marquess of Hartington, Sir Charles W. Dilke, Mr. Attorney General, The Lord Advocate, Mr. Campbell-Bannerman.)
  COMMITTEE. [Progress 20th March."
  [EIGHTH NIGHT.]
  Bill considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)

  SECOND SCHEDULE.

    BOROUGHS TO LOSE ONE MEMBER.
    MR. KENNYmoved, in page 15, column 2, line 22, to leave out "Limerick." The hon. Gentleman said, that the object of the Amendment was to omit from the Schedule the City of Limerick in order to preserve to it the two seats which it now enjoyed. That city differed, in many essential respects, from any of the Irish boroughs which had already been discussed in connection with the Bill, and therefore he was not at all discouraged by the series of failures which had attended the efforts of his hon. Friends who had endeavoured to secure their continued representation. Limerick was one of the three cities which it was proposed to deprive of one half of its representation, leaving, of course, the other half. The other two were Galway and Waterford. The proposal with regard to the City of Limerick, although it appeared, on the face of it, to be a perfectly reasonable, and, perhaps, a perfectly just one, would, if the circumstances of its surroundings were carefully examined, be admitted to be one of extraordinary hardship. The population of Limerick was very slightly short of the limit which, under the Bill, was necessary to entitle it to retain its present representation. The population of Limerick at the Census of 1881 was 49,000, or only 1,000 short of the number that was necessary to entitle it to retain a second Member. But it would be remembered that when the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister asked leave to introduce the Parliamentary Elections (Redistribution) Bill, he distinctly stated that no hard-and-fast line would be drawn. The right hon. Gentleman also assigned a reason on the same occasion, in words which he would quote, as it was that reason which induced him (Mr. Kenny) to bring forward this Motion. The right hon. Gentleman said that there were one or two cases where the towns proposed to be dealt with were within a few hundreds of the limit, and they would be considered as actually touching the limit. In accordance with that explanation exceptions had been made in the Bill, and no statement had been made, either by the Prime Minister or the President of the Local Government Board during the continuance of these discussions, to lead the House to believe that the Government had come to a determination to exclude constituencies nearly up to the limit, in
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    regard to which a fair case could be made out. The peculiar circumstances connected with the City of Limerick were, first, that it was exceptionally situated. It was the centre of an extremely prosperous district, and it possessed great natural advantages which, if properly attended to, were susceptible of enormous development. It was situated on one of the finest rivers in the Kingdom, and at a point of the river where its expansion would enable the navigation to be carried on to an extent fully as great, if the circumstances of Ireland would permit, as the navigation now carried on at Liverpool. Its commercial importance, therefore, if these natural advantages were developed, might be greatly extended. Some of these natural advantages had been utilized to a greater extent, probably, than in any other port of Ireland, with the exception of Dublin and Belfast. Another point entitling Limerick to favourable consideration was this—it had been constantly increasing in population since 1881. It seemed at that time to have touched bottom, and to have become a decreasing population; but since that year a steady increase had taken place. It must also be remembered that the City of Limerick was the capital of a large district comprising at least four counties, and the city itself extended partly into the county of Clare and partly into the county of Limerick. Under the Parliamentary Elections (Redistribution) Bill, however, the representation of those districts had been very much cut down, and they presented a most unfavourable contrast with other portions of Ireland. The population of the united districts of Clare and Limerick, to which he referred, and in which the City of Limerick was situated, was 332,000, and that large population in future, as arranged by the present Bill, would be represented by only five Members, thus giving one Member to every 65,000 inhabitants. That was most unfavourable when contrasted with the representation of almost any other portion of Ireland. Let hon. Members take, for instance, the population and representation of the county of Kerry, and it would be found that a population J of about 200,000 would return four Members to the House of Commons, giving one Member to every 55,000 people. The population of the county

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    of Galway was 241,660, and in future it was to be represented by five Members, giving one to every 48,500 of the population. Tyrone bad a population, including the boroughs, of 197,200, and it was to be represented in future in the ratio of one Member to every 49,000 inhabitants. If a similar basis of representation as that adapted in Tyrone were allowed to prevail in the district of Clare and Limerick, the difference in population in Clare and Limerick, as compared with that of Tyrone, would be 125,000, and yet it was proposed under the present Bill that it should be represented by one Member only. That was the proportion be had arrived at by various processes of calculation, and it certainly presented an anomaly which he thought it was almost impossible to equal, not only in Ireland, but in England or Scotland. A further circumstance in connection with this district was that the county of Clare would, under the Parliamentary Elections (Redistribution) Bill, be more unrepresented than any other portion of Ireland. The unit of representation in the county would be 70,200 under the Bill, while with an additional Member it would be considerably over 60,000, thus giving a population of more than 65,000 to each Member under the Bill. The President of the Local Government Board would, no doubt, take exception to any argument he might advance with regard to the under-representation of the Irish boroughs. The right hon. Gentleman had already, in the course of the discussion, endeavoured to point out that the Irish boroughs would even, under the present Bill, be still over-represented. Now, he thought that, to arrive at a fair argument and decision upon the particular case which he wished to submit to the Committee, it should be argued, not so much upon the future representation of the Irish boroughs as upon their present representation, and the proportion which it bore to the representation of the Irish counties under the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman told them that the future representation of the Irish counties would be one Member for every 52,000 persons, and in the boroughs one Member for 47,000 persons. That was what it would be under the Bill; but as it at present existed the proportion of representation in the Irish counties presented a very curious and striking anomaly, seeing
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    that there was one Member in the counties for a population of 81,000, whereas in the boroughs there was one Member for a population of 19,000. But the circumstances of Ireland in this respect did not present anything in the nature of an unusual anomaly, because in the whole of the United Kingdom the proportion of representation in the counties was one Member for 47,000, and in the boroughs one for 41,000. He maintained that in regard to the Irish boroughs exceptional indulgence should be extended to them, especially at a time which was marked as an era of returning commercial and manufacturing prosperity. It would be most unfortunate for these constituencies if, under such circumstances, the representation of the principal cities of Ireland was to be reduced. He made no complaint of the elimination which the Prime Minister proposed to make of the small boroughs. Those small boroughs had no special commercial claims or interests which deserved special representation, and it was only fair and just to merge them in county districts. But it was quite different in the case of the large cities and important towns like Limerick, which had interests altogether distinct from those of the surrounding agricultural districts. It had large shipping and manufacturing interests, which were showing signs every day of returning and awakening prosperity. Probably another reason which the President of the Local Government Board would advance against his appeal on behalf of the City of Limerick was that the present boundaries in the city were extensive, and that to extend them further was an idea that was quite untenable, and could not be accepted. It was perfectly true that the present boundaries of the City of Limerick were somewhat extended into the rural portion of the county; but he maintained that that was no argument whatever against a further extension, because the proposal which he intended to make, and which he had down on the Paper, as a consequential Amendment, if the present Amendment were accepted, was that a portion of the district should be admitted within the boundaries of the City of Limerick, which was entirely an urban district—namely, the parish of Castleconnell—as closely allied to Limerick as Rathmines was to the City of Dublin, or any of the suburban districts

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    of London to any part of the Metropolis proper. He therefore thought that any argument on this head advanced against him by the right hon. Gentleman would be completely met by the fact that where the boundaries extended pretty far into the rural districts the extension would only exclude places that contained a purely urban population. He thought that fact would fairly meet the objection which he was probably right in anticipating from the right hon. Gentleman. A further circumstance connected with the City of Limerick, which he thought entitled it to fair consideration under the Bill, was the peculiarly favourable geographical and commercial position it enjoyed. He had already said it was most favourably situated for the purposes of commerce; and that was so much the case that when it was contrasted with other Irish cities, the stable industries of which had declined—as, for instance, the City of Galway—it would be found that the great flour trade of Limerick had doubled and trebled within the last 20 years. That enormous increase of an important industry in Ireland was entirely owing to the favourable position and the advantages possessed by Limerick. But that was only one of the innumerable evidences there were of the increasing prosperity of the city. At present there was exported from Limerick more agricultural produce than from any other city in Ireland; certainly there was only one—the City of Dublin—which could possibly compete with it. He believed, however, that the amount of exports from Limerick by railway and by river was larger than from any other city in Ireland. There were many other claims which might be put forward on behalf of Limerick. For instance, it was exceedingly well situated for the development of the shipping industry. At the present moment it possessed a considerable number of floating docks, and a fine graving dock, and it was capable of admitting vessels of something like 5,000 tons burden. Further, the Harbour Board of Limerick were introducing a system of dock accommodation which would place them in so favourable a commercial position that they would be able to bring up in future, within a reasonable distance of Limerick, vessels of more than 6,000 tons. It might, therefore, be admitted that the day of
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    Limerick's approaching prosperity had already dawned. He did not know whether anything in connection with its historical celebrity would entitle the City of Limerick to special regard or attention from either the President of the Local Government Board or the Postmaster General. He thought it would be of very little use to appeal to the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade upon such a ground as that of historical interest, because the right hon. Gentleman had a mind which was of an exceedingly practical and unemotional description. But when the Prime Minister asked leave to introduce the Bill, it would be found reported in Hansard that he said the Bill would neither be regardless of history nor destructive of ancient rights. The right hon. Gentleman distinctly made that declaration; and if all the constituencies of the United Kingdom were taken into consideration, there was not one that could exceed the historical and ancient associations of the City of Limerick. It was as old as the Irish Parliament, and was entitled to return two Members to the Irish Parliament. No doubt, under the Act of Union that proportion was reduced; but the reduction was admitted to be so unjust that on the passing of the Reform Bill of 1832 the old representation was restored. He had pointed out already that since that time, although Limerick might have fallen off in population, it had increased in prosperity. The decrease in population had already ceased, and the turning-point had been reached. If he might refer, for a moment, to the historical claims of the City of Limerick, although it had not the same distinction Drogheda could boast of an account of its massacre, or of being dear to the people on account of that massacre, it was certainly much more endeared to the Irish people on account of its successful resistance to tyranny and despotism. Its citizens succeeded in escaping massacre by repelling those who endeavoured to oppress them, and it was one of the memorable circumstances of Irish history that if Limerick was forced to yield it yielded on terms that were honourable to itself and to Ireland. There were many other considerations which would lead Irishmen to hope that the Government would see their way to allowing the City of Limerick to retain its present representation. He was not

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    one of those who would be supposed to pay deference to any mere argument in favour of historical distinction on behalf of a constituency. He would prefer to base his argument and appeal upon the present position of the city—upon its reviving industry, upon its increased hopes of future prosperity, and upon the situation it occupied in regard to the surrounding districts. Any person who knew Limerick would recognize the marvellous change for the better which had taken place there within the last six years. A great many of the mud hovels which formerly disfigured the outskirts had given way to larger and more improved residences. The general condition of the people was one of increased contentment, and there was a spirit of enterprize abroad among the merchants. Nothing, therefore, could be more fatal, nothing more calculated to repress the development of the industry and enterprize of the city, than to deprive it of its full share of representation. He would further urge upon the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board, that in considering the question he ought to consider Limerick, not only in itself, but as the centre of a great and important district. It was in the centre of a district which under the Bill was grossly under-represented. He had endeavoured to show that whereas the district of which Limerick was the capital was only represented in the proportion of one Member to 65,000 population, almost every other district in Ireland was represented under far more favourable conditions, although there were very few districts which were able to contrast favourably with the district of which Limerick was the commercial centre. The city of Limerick, as the Committee well knew, was possessed of a vigorous and spirited municipality. It was showing signs of its recognition of the duty which was thrown upon the people of Ireland to help and aid themselves, by reviving Irish industries which for 100 or 150 years had been strangled by unjustifiable legislation. These were only some of the considerations which might be advanced on behalf of the claims of Limerick. He very much regretted that his hon. Friend the Member for Carlow (Mr. Dawson) who was a native of Limerick, and had been brought up there from his boyhood, and was well
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    acquainted with every item of interest in connection with the city, with its trade, its commerce, and its shipping, was at that moment absent in Ireland. His hon. Friend had an Amendment upon the Paper to the same effect as his own, and if his hon. Friend could have been there to move it, a better case might have been made out for retaining the representation of Limerick. However, in the absence of his hon. Friend, he would urge the Government to take into favourable consideration the claims of Limerick, on account of its present position, on account of its awakening prosperity, and on account of the position it occupied with regard to the surrounding districts, together with the unfavourable conditions in which the surrounding districts would be placed in consequence of the arrangements of the present Bill. He begged to move the Amendment he had placed upon the Paper.
    Amendment proposed, in page 15, column 2, line 22, to leave out "Limerick."—(Mr. Kenny.)
    Question proposed, "That 'Limerick' stand part of the Schedule."
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsaid, the hon. Member who had moved the Amendment had argued as if Limerick were an increasing place. That, however, was not the case.
    MR. KENNYremarked, that it had been increasing for the last four years.
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsaid, he had made inquiries on the subject since the Notices of Amendments in regard to Limerick were first given, and he was informed by the Irish Registration Office that it was not the case that there had been any increase in the population of Limerick since the last Census. On the whole, although the borough population of Ireland generally was increasing, and was very considerable in the three largest towns—namely, Dublin, Belfast, and Cork—yet if those towns were taken away the increase was very slight. The Returns showed that in the population of Ireland generally there was a decrease, but that in the borough population there was a large increase. Nevertheless, if the population of the three large towns were taken out of the calculation, Limerick would have no part in the slight increase which would still remain. On the contrary, it would be

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    found that the population of Limerick had become slightly less. There was, therefore, no force in the argument that an additional Member should be retained for Limerick, because, although the population was now below the general limit which had been fixed, it was a growing population. His next objection to the proposal was, as the hon. Member for Ennis (Mr. Kenny) had anticipated, in reference to the extraordinary size of the area proposed to be included within the boundaries of Limerick. Limerick was already the largest borough, except one, that would be left in the Bill.
    MR. SEXTONasked what was the other one?
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsaid, it was either the town of Galway or Cork. Limerick was far larger in area than any borough in England that would be left in the Bill, and far larger than any borough which had not been turned into a county district. It embraced an area of between 33,000 and 34,000 acres. Almost the whole of its population lived in a very small part of that area. Indeed, it was a very concentrated population; 39,000 people lived in an area of 2,000 acres, and the rest of the population lived outside in an area of 31,000 acres. The proposal now made was to extend the boundaries of Limerick in a manner which was entirely unknown elsewhere. Already the borough of Limerick was virtually a small county district, and a large agricultural district formed part of the borough for Parliamentary purposes. It would be converted into a real county district if they were to attach to it the village of Castleconnell, which the hon. Member for Ennis (Mr. Kenny) proposed to add. No doubt, Castleconnell contained an urban population; but if they went on extending the boundaries of a borough they must inevitably, some time or other, come to some urban population. Having made use of these special arguments as to the case of Limerick, which the hon. Member had rightly anticipated that he would make use of, he must remind the Committee that there was still a further view of the case. If they were to give a second Member to Limerick it could only be done at the expense of some other constituency, and probably at the expense of one of the Irish counties, and he did not think it had any just claim to such exceptional treatment.
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    Why should they give to a population of 49,000 persons a Member taken from a county with a much larger population?
    MR. SYNANsaid, that his excuse for intervening was that he had an Amendment on the Paper upon the same subject. He could not say that he was at all sorry that the Members for the City of Limerick, who ought to have been present to defend that city, were conspicuous by their absence, and that the task had fallen upon his hon. Friend, whose sympathies for Limerick were very strong, but who himself represented the borough of Ennis. He thought the arguments of the President of the Local Government Board fell very far short of those which ought to have been addressed to the Committee in defence of the proposal contained in the Bill, which amounted substantially to the disfranchisement of a population of 49,000. The right hon. Gentleman had not told the Committee why the arbitrary limit of 50,000 was laid down in the Bill, nor had he told them whether any departure from that limit of 50,000 was to be allowed. He would ask the right hon. Gentleman, who could answer the question because he was entitled to speak again, whether, instead of being short of the 50,000 limit by 1,000, Limerick had only been short of it by one, or two, or 10 persons, would the Government have taken one Member from it, and have conferred the seat upon another constituency? He thought some Member of the Government ought to state to the Committee distinctly upon what principle the Bill proceeded. He could understand a Bill being brought in upon either of two principles—either upon the principle of equal electoral districts, or upon the principle of going upon the old lines of the Constitution. If they adopted the former and would add together the county and city of Limerick, they would have a population entitling the City of Limerick to two Members, and the population of the county and city to four Members, because the population of the county of Limerick exceeded the fixed limit which the compact between the two sides of the House gave by 26,000, and if they threw the 26,000 into the City of Limerick, and adopted the principle of equal electoral districts, Limerick, county and city together, would certainly be entitled

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    to four Members. The Government could only justify their present proceeding by the fact that they had not adopted a scheme of equal electoral districts. Under the compact they laid down an arbitrary line which struck a heavy blow at the City of Limerick, and gave an additional grievance to the borough population of Ireland. Then, again, what would have been the result if they had gone upon the old lines of the Constitution? If they had framed the Bill on Constitutional lines, he defied the right hon. Gentleman and the Government he represented to deprive an ancient borough, as old as King John, enjoying a representation in Ireland as old as the Irish Parliament, and a representation in the British Parliament as old as the British Parliament—he defied the right hon. Gentleman on Constitutional grounds to deprive the City of Limerick of one of its Members. It appeared, however, that in order to please the Opposition, Her Majesty's Government had entered into a compact by which an arbitrary line was struck, with the result of throwing the Constitution into a kind of hotch-potch. He maintained that the Government had framed their Bill upon no principle whatever. Why had they fixed the 50,000 limit? Did they arrive at that figure by a toss up. It was a curious circumstance that in the town represented by his hon. Friend (Ennis) a jury, was recently sent back twice by a Judge to consider their verdict, and because they did not agree they were sent back a third time; when they came back they immediately delivered a verdict. Astonished at the rapidity with which they did so, the Judge expressed his surprise, when a member of the jury told him that it was a very easy matter seeing that they had tossed up. Upon that announcement the learned Judge lectured them, abused them, and finally drove them out of the jury-box. Upon leaving the box one of the jury remarked to the Judge that he thought they had quite as much right to toss up for a verdict as the Government had to toss up for a 50,000 limit, and thus disfranchise Limerick. His complaint was that the arbitrary limit of 50,000 laid down by the Bill struck the City of Limerick very hardly, because it was only just under the limit, and it might have been placed above it by a very legitimate extension
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    of its boundaries for half-a-mile in one direction. Already, as the right hon. Gentleman had pointed out, the Parliamentary limits of the borough of Limerick extended for four miles outside the borough, and they had so existed from the days of Henry VII., when the city sent Members to the Irish Parliament. What the hon. Member for Ennis (Mr. Kenny) asked was that the boundary should be extended so as to include Castleconnell, which would add some hundreds more of a homogeneous population. What was the statement made to the Committee by the right hon. Gentleman a fortnight ago? The right hon. Gentleman told them, in dealing with the Instructions given to the Boundary Commissioners, that the English Commissioners had directions where they found a homogeneous population to extend the limits of the borough to that population, so long as it did not interfere with any other arrangement. Now, if the limits of the borough of Limerick were extended to Castleconnell, a place well known to anglers from England, the Boundary Commissioners would have obtained at once a population of more than 50,000. Then, why had they not done in Ireland what they had done in England? In connection with the English boroughs, the Boundary Commissioners had been instructed to take evidence with the view of extending the area of a borough, so that it might include places where a homogeneous population could be found. In this case the extension of the boundary for half-a-mile would have secured the necessary 50,000, and Limerick need not have been disfranchised. Why, then, had the Government declined to give similar Instructions to the Boundary Commissioners for Ireland, and had placed no discretionary powers in their hands? As a matter of fact, when this point was brought before the Boundary Commissioners at Limerick they rejected the evidence tendered to them, and said they could not entertain it. The only place in Ireland where the Boundary Commissioners had been allowed to exercise a discretion was the borough of Belfast, and he certainly could not see how the exception in that case could be defended. By what argument could it be contended that an area was so large that it ought not to be extended when the extension was simply undertaken with a view of

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    including a homogeneous population? There could be no question that Castleconnel contained a homogeneous population, and if the evidence which the people of Limerick were prepared to produce had been received, the Commissioners would have been bound to admit that a good case had been made out. The third objection of the right hon. Gentleman to the Amendment was of a most arbitrary kind. The right hon. Gentleman said—"Where are we to find the Member?" It was the case of Mrs. Glass's hare over again—they must first catch their hare. Surely it ought not to be difficult for the Government themselves to find a Member. Whose act was it that had deprived the Government of the power of giving Limerick an additional Member? There were two disfranchised boroughs in Ireland already, and surely one seat might have been given from them to Limerick. Then, again, there were two Members for Trinity College, Dublin, and one of those seats might have been given to Limerick. But by their compact with the Opposition, the Government had negatived the Motion to reduce the representation of Trinity College to one Member, and now they took advantage of their own wrong for the purpose of limiting the representation of Limerick. Was that a proceeding they could justify; and was it worth while defending a grievance which could not upon any principle be justified? The hon. Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell) would sustain no injury by losing the additional Member for Limerick. The loss would be to the Government themselves, in making a grievance which they might have avoided—a special grievance that would irritate and provoke a population of 232,000 persons in the county and city of Limerick, and the county of Clare. He was afraid there was no use in discussing the question; but he should like to ask what argument had been advanced by the Government in defence of their Bill? There was only the arbitrary declaration that no Member could be found unless they robbed some other constituency. It was all very well to talk of robbing Peter to pay Paul; but why had they robbed Paul? The robbery was their own act, and they were taking advantage of it in order to say that under the compact they found themselves powerless in the matter. Surely, if
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    they had entered into a compact, it wa3 still competent for the parties to that compact to alter its terms. Had they the courage to alter it; and why had they not, when they were called upon to remedy a grievance which could be sustained by no argument whatever? Why was a population of 232,000 in the counties of Limerick and Clare to be left with two Members for 60,000 persons each; and why was Limerick, because it fell short of 50,000 by a few hundreds, to have an arbitrary rule applied to it, and be deprived of one-half of its representation? He failed to see why the county and city together should not have the advantage of the surplus population. It was not necessary to argue the matter further. He did not know what course his hon. Friend meant to pursue—whether he meant to go to a division or not; but, with the few body of supporters he saw around him, he did not think his hon. Friend would gain much by a division, except it were taken by way of a protest. Of course, under any circumstances, the Government would act in this case as they had acted in regard to all other protests.
    DR. LYONSsaid, the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board, in dealing with the question, had addressed himself solely to the question of population. It was quite true that the population of Limerick had decreased somewhat considerably from what it was at the time of the first Reform Bill. But anyone who was familiar with the City of Limerick must know that in many material respects it had exhibited a great advance. There had been an advance in commerce and in industrial pursuits of all kinds, and it was still at the present day continuing to make rapid progress. There could not be any doubt that when that revival took place which he trusted soon to see in regard to the manufacturing industries of Ireland, Limerick was one of the cities which was bound to advance in a very rapid ratio. The right hon. Gentleman had pointed out that very few cities possessed a larger area. No doubt, Limerick covered a very large space of ground besides the rural district to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, and there could be no doubt whatever that the facilities which existed at hand for the erection of residences, factories, and works of all kinds,

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    would be made available whenever a proper stimulus was applied in order to bring about the further development of the industry of that city. There would then be such an advance in the population as would fairly entitle it to two Members. How was the City of Limerick treated at the time of the Great Reform Bill? Its importance in every point of view was taken into account, although there were at the time a considerable number of claims for representation. A distinguished statesman (Mr. Stanley) made these pertinent observations upon the state of things at that time. He stated—
    "The additional Members are given to Cork, Belfast, and Waterford, not on account of the increased population of 60,000, 48,000, and 28,000 in those places, but because there are great and important interests in those towns which require representation."
    He (Dr. Lyons)"maintained that those great and important interests which Mr. Stanley referred to still remained, and, as far as those interests were concerned, Limerick was as much entitled to representation now as it was when it possessed a population of 60,000. It must be borne in mind—and this was a point which, in dealing with the question of Irish representation as based upon population, he thought the Government ought to take very seriously to heart— that the population of Ireland, under what he would venture to call an improper stimulus to emigration, had been reduced below its natural limits. If there had not been such an artificial stimulus, it was extremely probable that not only the City of Limerick, but many other districts in Ireland, would have had a population much beyond that which they were enjoying at the present day. He had always thought, at the time the Imperial Government first addressed itself to the stimulating emigration from Ireland, that the day might come when the diminished population of the country would be brought forward as an argument for depriving Ireland of some of its legislative rights in connection with its representation. That day had now arrived, and he was sorry to see so many arguments in the direction of restricting the representation based upon the fact of the decreased population of the country. It was quite true that the population of Limerick, as well as of many other important cities
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    in Ireland, had fallen below the mechanical limit fixed by the Government for depriving particular constituencies of their political power. In this case the deprivation only involved the cutting off of one Member; and speaking in all frankness upon the subject, because he believed he was not altogether in accord with the views of the hon. Members who now represented that city, he was certainly of opinion that considerations of that kind ought properly to be kept out of view in dealing with the representation of Ireland. He spoke upon the question simply as one of principle, and he begged to add his voice to those of hon. Members opposite in pressing upon the Government the important claims of Limerick to a fuller consideration than it had met with in reference to the retention of the two Representatives which it at present enjoyed. It was quite true that by including within the limits of the borough a population which really belonged to it a very fair method would be afforded for getting out of the difficulty—a difficulty which, after all, was a mere mechanical one, relating only to the question of population. He entertained no doubt in his own mind that the prosperity of Ireland would be completely revived before the end of the century, and that the City of Limerick would very soon be entitled, even in point of population, to the privilege it now asked for.
    MR. SEXTONsaid, he had not yet abandoned the hope that the representations which had been made by his hon. Friends might soften the determination of the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill. Perhaps it might have been in vain to hope that any appeal addressed to him from those Benches might have had the slightest effect upon his decision; but, on the other hand, the right hon. Baronet might not be insensible to the appeal of so devoted a follower of Her Majesty's Government as the hon. Gentleman who had just addressed the Committee. The speech of the hon. Gentleman was somewhat remarkable. It contained an admission that Her Majesty's Government had adopted an improper system in the stimulus they had given to Irish emigration, especially as it was a system of emigration produced and brought about by unjust and cruel laws. Even so slight an admission as that—that the stimulus

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    which had been given by Her Majesty's Government to emigration was an improper stimulus—was a startling admission coming from that quarter of the House. He regretted that the hon. Members for Limerick were not present; but, at the same time, he thought the City of Limerick had lost nothing from the fact that their case had been placed in the hands of his hon. Friend the Member for Ennis (Mr. Kenny). His hon. Friend had addressed the Committee in a practical and exhaustive speech, in which he had brought forward nothing but relative facts. The right hon. Baronet in dealing with the case relied upon one principle, and one principle only; and so far as the principle was concerned, it was one on which he (Mr. Sexton) was bound to say he agreed with the right hon. Gentleman. The right hon. Gentleman pointed out that the average of county representation in Ireland as laid down in the Bill was a population of 52,000 for each Member, and that it would be improper to take any portion of that representation away from the county in order to give it to a place with a less population. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman in that principle as a general rule; but the arguments of his hon. Friend, in introducing the Amendment, had relation also to the present position of the very important urban district of Limerick, which was increasing rapidly in population, and which in a very short time would have reached the limit laid down in the Bill for representation by two Members. In looking over the maps which were appended to the Reports of the Boundary Commissioners for England, he could not see that there had been any serious objection to the enlargement of a borough boundary. Let them take the case of Warwick. There they had a town which was a simple dot in the centre of a large area. Beyond it was another town also surrounded by a large rural area, and the two towns of Warwick and Leamington were separated by a road at least a mile and a-half long. Yet it was proposed in the Bill to effect a junction between those two towns, and to continue the representation of Warwick. Then, again, let them take the case of the borough of Sheffield, which some years ago they were told contained an area of nearly 20,000 acres. In point of fact, there
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    were numerous bodies in England which would run Limerick pretty close, and if hon. Members would study the maps they would soon see that numerous boroughs had had their boundaries extended for the special purposes of this Bill, without any particular captious reference being make to the size of the areas. His hon. Friend the Member for Ennis (Mr. Kenny) proposed that the already large area of Limerick should be still further increased. The objections expressed to that proposition were, no doubt, of considerable force; but all that his hon. Friend proposed was to take in a village standing on the very verge of the present Parliamentary area —a watering place, and a place of recreation and retirement for the people of the City of Limerick. It was a place which had no interests separate and distinct from those of Limerick itself; and, in point of fact, it was a mere annex to Limerick. His hon. Friend proposed to add that place to the present Parliamentary borough. Therefore, when the right hon. Baronet the President of the Local Government Board, with his usual accuracy, stated that the constituency of Limerick, as suggested by the hon. Member for Ennis (Mr. Kenny), would include many thousands of acres, it was really somewhat late in the day, and might even deserve the epithet "paltry," to object to an addition which only involved an extra 1,000 acres. The right hon. Gentleman was virtually straining at a gnat in the case of Limerick, while in reference to other boroughs, such as Warwick, he was chivalrously swallowing a camel. The right hon. Gentleman stated that the population of Limerick was not increasing; but the right hon. Gentleman upon that point had not spoken with his usual precision. The right hon. Gentleman had referred to some Returns and information which he had received from the Office of the Registrar General for Ireland; but it would have been much more satisfactory if the right hon. Gentleman could have quoted figures in support of his contention. If hon. Gentlemen had referred to a Petition which had been presented to the House on behalf of the Corporation of Warwick, they would have found that the population of Warwick was not nearly so large as had been stated, whereas the population of Limerick was rapidly increasing, and was likely to be

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    augmented by a variety of causes, among which was the decline of tillage. There could be no doubt of the fact that at the present moment the people were being driven from the rural districts into the towns for refuge or employment. At any rate, some better argument than the quotation of some vague Return should be offered to the Committee. His (Mr. Sexton's) assertion was that the population was increasing, and in that assertion he was supported by the Corporation of Limerick; and in regard to the steady decline of tillage in the Province of Munster it was likely to go on increasing, seeing that a large number of persons were constantly giving up rural occupations and going into the city for the means of obtaining a livelihood. A reference had been made to the population of the city in 1832, when the Re-form Act re-affirmed the claim of Limerick to have two Members. At that time the population of the city was 60,000; no doubt it had very much decreased since; but the fact which was stated in the Memorial from the city could not be denied—that the tonnage of the port was increasing, and that the advantages of Limerick as a commercial and shipping centre were now becoming fully recognized, and should not be forgotten in considering the claims of the city to Parliamentary representation. In 1832 the tonnage of the vessels frequenting the port was only 50,000; last year it was 180,000 tons, or within 20,000 tons of having been quadrupled in a little more than half-a-century. It was a great railway centre; it was the site of the four great Munster fairs; it was throwing out important suburbs; and in every respect it deserved consideration at the hands of Parliament. There was another argument which deserved some consideration, although no doubt it would receive very little sympathy from the Committee. He referred to the fact that the state of Limerick had lately been conspicuously affected by the action of the Irish Executive. It had been made the seat of one of the Hibernian Pashas whom the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford (Mr. W. E. Forster) sent over to rule the country a few years ago, and the consequence had been that the additional police force quartered upon the locality, and the attempt to levy an excessive Police Tax, had been the cause
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    of much heartburning and indignation. The questions arising out of the action of the Irish Government had not yet been settled, and yet it was sought to deprive the city of one-half of its representation. Personally, he felt satisfied that however that matter was dealt with, and if Limerick were altogether deprived of a voice in Parliament, its citizens would be fully able to give a good account of themselves. Another argument in favour of the City of Limerick was that it was the principal port on the Western Coast of Ireland. No one would deny that hitherto the Western ports had been badly treated by the Treasury, and that they had suffered greatly from neglect. They had not been able to obtain those loans from the Treasury which had been freely granted else; in developing their resources they had been hampered and impeded in every way, and they had not been able to compete, on equal terms, with the ports on the Eastern Coast of Ireland. Nevertheless, there were five or six of those ports which had long been struggling to maintain a commercial position—Limerick, Galway, Sligo, Tralee, and others, represented only by eight Members. Sligo had already been disfranchised; it was proposed under the present Bill to disfranchise Tralee; a Member each was to be taken away from Limerick and Galway; so that the Western seaports, with a population of more than 200,000, and extending over eight or nine counties, would in future only possess two borough Members—one for Limerick and one for Galway—a position most deplorable in which to place important interests which preeminently demanded the personal attention of Representatives in Parliament. In these days the ports of the Western Coast of Ireland constituted a special interest altogether distinct from the agricultural interest which predominated in Ireland; and if it could be avoided, without inflicting unjustifiable injury upon other interests, not only ought the representation of those seaport towns to be prevented from falling into such a contemptible minimum as to numbers, but it ought to be further increased. He did not ask that any Member should be taken from a county and given to the City of Limerick. It might be asked where he would propose to take a Member from. The hon. Member for

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    Ennis (Mr. Kenny) had referred to Trinity College. In the course of the discussions upon this Bill, everybody referred to Trinity College, because, no matter how bad a case might be made out for any other place, the case of Trinity College was worse. The Irish Members could, therefore, always ask for a Member from Trinity College, quite certain that the balance of equity would be on their side. Trinity College, with its 4,000 electors, returned two Members. Limerick, with a population of 49,000, was to return only one. Surely the right hon. Gentleman would admit that it would be much more equitable if the two cases were reversed, and that Trinity College, with 4,000 electors, should return only one Member, while Limerick, with more than 8,000 electors, should return two. If the Government were not prepared to get a Member from Trinity College, it would be easy to take one from the disfranchised boroughs of Sligo and Cashel. It was at present proposed to give the seats formerly enjoyed by those boroughs to England; but why should they be given to England? He maintained, in the first place, that the Government had no right to disfranchise those boroughs at all, and if they had a right to disfranchise them at the time they committed the offences, their status as Parliamentary boroughs ought long ago to have been restored. Seventeen years had passed away since those Irish boroughs had sinned against the mandates of Parliamentary Electoral Law. What was their sin? Some half-dozen people offered bribes and perhaps half-a-score of the electors took them. They were now widely extending the franchise in Ireland, and they had the audacity to wipe a borough like Sligo off the electoral roll, while they retained upon the English roll in England boroughs which had been proved to be sinks of political infamy. It was not necessary to name the places to which he referred; but hon. Members knew very well that there were boroughs in England in which the bribers were numbered by hundreds, and in which the persons who took the bribes might be counted by thousands. Certainly, if they were to take away the seats from the boroughs already disfranchised for bribery in Ireland, they did not do so on the ground of any moral superiority among the English
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    constituencies. If they compared the Election Petitions from England with those from Ireland, and if the principle were admitted that where superiority prevailed a borough should be entitled to enfranchisement, he might claim that all the seats taken from the English boroughs should be given to Ireland, instead of those taken from the Irish boroughs being handed over to England. Personally, he saw no reason why the settlement arrived at in the Act of 1832 should be disturbed. So far as the decrease of population was concerned, the reduction had been brought about by misgovernment on the part of the Rulers of the Irish people, and that certainly ought to form no reason for the disfranchisement of a single constituency in Ireland. He maintained that the representation of the towns in Ireland, and especially of the seaport towns, constituted a special interest, and he would point out that the moment selected for disfranchising this interest was the moment when the House had actually appointed the Committee to consider the best means of developing the almost extinguished manufacturing industries of Ireland. It was also a moment when the minds and energies of the Irish people were directed to the development of their manufacturing industries. Everyone had come to the conclusion that the country could not continue to go on with agriculture alone, and it would be a most unfortunate thing if at such a moment the House of Commons cut down the representation of the Irish boroughs to such a point that the views and interests of the Irish people would have no prospect of being clearly enunciated in Parliament.
    MR. SHAW LEFEVREsaid, he thought the Committee would be of opinion that the City of Limerick had lost nothing in consequence of the absence from the House of its Representatives, because the two hon. Members for Ennis (Mr. Kenny) and Sligo (Mr. Sexton) had advocated the cause of that city with great force and ability. For his own part, he had not been aware that so much could have been said for Limerick. A complaint was made against the Government that they had not defined the principles of their Bill. There were five or six Amendments upon the Paper containing a similar proposal to that which was now made

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    with regard to Limerick, and as the Government had been unable to accept proposals similar to that now made in respect of other boroughs, it would be seen that they could not now accede to the application which was made in the case of Limerick. He thought it must be taken as agreed to by both sides of the House that the limit of 50,000, fixed by the Bill, must be the limit entitling a town to return two Members. The hon. Member for Ennis (Mr. Kenny) proposed to add to Limerick another place; but the only question was whether Limerick had a fair ground for being excepted from the rule. What was the real position of the City of Limerick? It had already been pointed out that Limerick, instead of having an urban population of 50,000, had only an urban population of 39,000; and if they gave Limerick another Member, they would have to reduce the borough representation elsewhere, or take a Member from some county. It was now proposed to extend the boundaries of Limerick by including Castleconnell within them, Castleconnell being, as the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) had himself admitted, a mere village. Indeed, he (Mr. Shaw Lefevre) very much doubted whether the inclusion of Castleconnell would add 1,000 to the population of the borough. Some years ago he had spent some days there fishing upon the Shannon, and a very pleasant time he had. The hon. Member, however, was quite right in describing it as a mere village. It certainly did not contain a population of 1,000; and he very much doubted whether, if all the surrounding parishes were added, the population of 39,000 would be swelled up to 50,000. But the Committee had already, in various cases, refused other claims on behalf of other places, and the Government had not acceded to a claim for extended boundaries either in the case of a single or a two-Membered constituency. The real question was, whether it was possible, in a matter of this kind, to give an additional Member, that would involve the taking away of a Member elsewhere. The hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) admitted, himself, that if it were a question of giving Limerick an additional Member, or taking one away from any Irish county, there was no argument in favour of it. But there was no other way of moving
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    in the matter. The House had already rejected the proposal to take a Member from Trinity College. It was contended that Trinity College was over-represented. No doubt that was a very convenient argument, and it had been somewhat frequently handled; but there was no getting over the fact that the House had already decided to leave Trinity College, Dublin, with its two Members. Therefore, the only possibility of giving Limerick another Member would be either to reduce the borough representation elsewhere, or to take a Member from some Irish county. Hon. Members below the Gangway admitted that they did not want, nor was it possible to reduce the county representation of Ireland; and, 'therefore, they must be relegated to the plan of taking the additional Member from the borough representation, and he confessed that if the borough representation was to be increased, there were some other places with much stronger claims than Limerick. For instance, the claim which had been made on behalf of Drogheda, for one Member, was a much stronger one than the claim of Limerick for a second Member. The case of Limerick had not been sustained, and under the circumstances he felt bound to ask the Committee to reject the Amendment.
    MR. O'BRIENsaid, the argument of the right hon. Gentleman seemed to him to amount to this—that there were many other places in the same position as Limerick; and, therefore, in order to retain a second Member for that city, it would be necessary to commit an act of injustice elsewhere. The right hon. Gentleman had made no attempt whatever to reply to the arguments of his hon. Friends the Members for Ennis (Mr. Kenny) and Sligo (Mr. Sexton), and it was, therefore, idle to prolong the discussion; but he felt bound to protest, in the strongest possible way, against the slur proposed to be inflicted upon Limerick by this partial disfranchisement. Limerick was going to lose one of its Members for the very reason which the Prime Minister had refused to recognize as a reason for reducing the representation—namely, the temporary reduction of population by the enforced emigration and lack of employment which had materially reduced the population of the country from what it was at the time of the Union. The right hon. Gentleman

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    who had just spoken seemed to recognize the theory that the decline in the population of the Irish seats was to go on perpetually under English rule. He had not had the advantage of listening to the statistics of the right hon. Baronet the President of the Local Government Board; but he knew Limerick intimately, and he strongly supported the view taken by the Corporation of Limerick that the population of that city, within the last four or five years, instead of declining, had been rapidly increasing, while its commercial importance and its trade had unquestionably been growing. It was not a matter of very much consequence to the Irish Representatives whether a particular county or city in the South of Ireland had an additional Member. They were not con-tending for any political advantage in the matter at all; but they must all recognize that it was not for the public advantage that a commercial community of this kind, which, as his hon. Friend the Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) had pointed out, was the chief of the Western seaports of Ireland, should be completely swamped by the agricultural community which surrounded it. Under the new arrangement, Limerick would be the only urban constituency within a radius of something like 60 miles. Within that area was the disfranchised borough of Cashel, and he regretted that the Postmaster General had not noticed the alternative proposed by the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton)— that a seat should be secured for Limerick by retaining one of the two seats of which Ireland had already been unjustly deprived. The population of Limerick, up to within a few years ago, was fully up to the standard which would have entitled it to two Members, and it was almost certain that it would be so again. Even a small slice of the immediate neighbourhood—namely, the parish of Castle connell, would bring it up to the requisite 50,000; and he thought the Government would do a graceful and a wise thing, and a thing which no one would raise any objection to, if they could, by some such arrangement, retain for Limerick its two Members. The people of Ireland could not help thinking that if the population of Limerick had been true blues, and as amenable to Castle discipline as was the case in Belfast, the Government would
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    have found some means of enlarging its boundaries and of retaining its Representatives.
    MR. WILLIAM REDMONDremarked, that after the very exhaustive way in which his hon. Friends had put forward the claims of the City of Limerick to continue its right of returning two Members, he could not hope to say anything further that was likely to influence the Government in the decision which they already appeared to have arrived at. At the same time, he wished to state briefly that he thought the Government, in not accepting the Amendment of the hon. Member for Ennis (Mr. Kenny), were refusing to do an act which would have been received as a very gracious act of justice by the people of Ireland, and the people of Limerick especially. It was generally considered throughout Ireland that one of the greatest blots in the Reform Bill was to be found in the fact that the city and borough population of Ireland did not receive that proportion of representation which their numbers entitled them to. And of all the cases of injustice done by the Bill to the boroughs and cities of Ireland, there was none more grievous than the proposal contained in the measure with regard to the City of Limerick. It had been pointed out very clearly and very strongly, both by the hon. Member for Ennis (Mr. Kenny) and later on by the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton), that Limerick possessed an overwhelming claim to the right of returning two Members to Parliament. He had been struck by the strength and the force of the observations which had just fallen from his hon. Friend the Member for Mallow. There was not a shadow of a doubt in the minds of the Irish Members that if the City of Limerick, instead of being a National city, had been a stronghold of Orangeism and of landlordism—a city composed of men who were altogether in favour of British rule—the mere difference of 1,000 below the 50,000 limit would not have prevented Her Majesty's Government from retaining for Limerick her two Members. Surely it was a monstrous thing to say that a city should be deprived of half its representation which next year, or a few years later, would be fully up to the required standard, as far as population was concerned. There was every reason to hope

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    that the population of Limerick would be quite up to 50,000 in a very short time, and while the limit of 50,000 was taken as the standard for disfranchising a city, no provision was made for continuing the representation in the case of cities and boroughs whoso population was rapidly growing. He thought some provision ought to be inserted in the Parliamentary Elections (Redistribution) Bill to provide that when a city or borough reached the required standard of population it should have its full complement of Members. The town he had the honour to represent (Wexford) would probably, in the course of a few years, reach upwards of 15,000 inhabitants, and yet it was to be disfranchised. Although it was admitted that every town with 50,000 population should have a Member, when Wexford reached that number there was no provision in the Bill for restoring the representation it would have lost. He certainly thought that the City of Limerick should be made an exception to the 50,000 limit. The right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster General appeared to think that a conclusive argument against giving Limerick two Members was that it would be objectionable to take a Member from any of the agricultural districts of Ireland. He did not think, however, that hon. Members on that side of the House at all intended to convey the impression that it would be unfair to take Members from certain counties in the North of Ireland in order to give them to cities such as Limerick. At the same time, it would be undesirable, no doubt, to interfere with the present redistribution of seats in the counties of the South of Ireland; but if they did not take one from Trinity College, whose rights had already been saved, they might, upon every ground of justice, go to certain quarters of the North of Ireland and take a seat from the Orangemen, because the Orangemen already had a far greater share in the representation in that House than their numbers entitled them to. He thought, when the news reached Ireland to-morrow that the Government were determined to draw such a hard-and fast line, and that they would not make an exception even in the case of Limerick, it would be received with very much the same feeling as that with which the people of Ireland received the news of another
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    transaction a good many years ago, on the part of the British Government, with which the City of Limerick was not altogether unconnected.
    MR. KENNYsaid, he had no wish to trouble the Committee with any further remarks, or to press the Amendment to a division. He would only say that the City of Limerick was very hardly dealt with by the Bill. If the district in which the City of Limerick was situated were divided into equal electoral districts, instead of having four Members, it would be entitled to five and a-half, so that by the present Bill it was losing its right to one and a-half more. However, seeing that it was hopeless to expect to carry the Amendment, after the determined stand made against it by Her Majesty's Government, he would ask the leave of the Committee to withdraw it.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Schedule agreed to.

  THIRD SCHEDULE.

    BOROUGHS TO HAVE ADDITIONAL MEMBERS.
    SIR EARDLEY WILMOTmoved, in page 15, line 30, to leave out "Seven," and insert "Five." The hon. Member said, he did not bring forward the Amendment with any hope of success; but he moved it more as a protest against the mode in which the Bill had been prepared than with any hope that the right hon. Baronet opposite (Sir Charles W. Dilke) would accept it. On a late occasion, when he proposed an Amendment to limit the number of Members of that House to 658, he was taunted by the right hon. Gentleman opposite with not having proposed some method by which on the present occasion the 12 additional Members would be supplied. He quite admitted that Scotland well deserved additional Representatives, and he was prepared to propose Amendments by which 12 additional Members would be supplied without increasing the number of the House. The object of the present Amendment was to reduce the number of Members proposed for the borough of Birmingham from seven to five. He entertained great objection to the inordinate power given by the Bill to the Metropolis, and also to the large towns. He thought, judging from had occurred

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    in other countries, that there was great danger in giving largely increased power to the Metropolis and to great cities, because in turbulent times it might occasion great trouble. That, however, was not the main reason which induced him to propose an alteration in the Government scheme in regard to Birmingham from seven to five. His reason was that the town of Birmingham did not really require so many Members as seven. He was a Warwickshire man himself, and he had an opportunity of hearing everything that went on in that part of the country. What was now stated was that with seven Members Birmingham would not be able to find gentlemen to fill the seats. The argument was that while the Bill would increase the quantity it would reduce the quality of the Members. He need not remind right hon. Gentlemen who sat on the Treasury Bench that when the supply exceeded the demand the value of the article necessarily went down. He, therefore, maintained that by increasing the quantity and lowering the quality of the representation they were running the risk of having men returned who would enter Parliament for what they could get out of the country rather than what they might bring to it. If the Committee would consent to reduce the number of Members proposed to be given to Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, and some other boroughs, they would obtain eight seats, and four more could readily be obtained from other boroughs of the United Kingdom, which would give Scotland all the additional representation she required, and would prevent that which almost every Member of the House regarded as a great grievance— namely, the proposed increased in the number of the House itself. The Amendment he had proposed the other day was not largely supported in the Lobby, but it was, nevertheless, supported by many men of thought and intelligence; and he happened to know that many who voted against him fully shared the views which he entertained. There would, he thought, be a difficulty in finding proper men for these large towns, according to the scale of representation laid down in the Schedule, and the splitting up of a constituency into wards would lead to a great deal of extra expense. This was not a case in which the Conservative interests were concerned, as under the
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    present system there was no chance of those interests being represented at all. The right hon. Baronet had to deal with the anomaly that notwithstanding recent legislation for the purpose of reducing the expenditure at elections the expenses of candidates on both sides would be largely increased, inasmuch as the candidate would have to fight the battle single-handed. The right hon. Baronet would say that the area of representation would be diminished. Granted; but what diminished the expenses at elections was not reduction of area, but the union of candidates, who agreed to share the expenses between them, which enabled them to come to the House of Commons at much less expense than would otherwise be the case. He said that it would be far better to give Birmingham five Members as a whole than to divide it into many parts, which would amount, under the present scheme, to the representation of seven single wards in that great city. Finally, he protested strongly, and he should take every opportunity of making his protest against action on the part of the Government, the principle of which he believed to be fraught with danger to the Constitution. As there was little chance of his Amendment being accepted by the Government, he did not propose to divide the Committee upon it. He should, however, move the Amendment, to give the right hon. Baronet an opportunity of making a statement on the subject.
    Amendment proposed, in page 15, line 30, to leave out the word "Seven," and insert the word "Five,"—(Sir Eardley Wilmot,)—instead thereof.
    Question proposed, "That the word 'Seven' stand part of the Schedule."
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsaid, the hon. Baronet had addressed some observations to the Committee on the subject of the single-Member system, into which he should not follow him, inasmuch as that matter had been decided by the House itself. The hon. Baronet proposed to reduce large boroughs in such a way as would only allow them one Member to about every 100,000 inhabitants; but he made no proposal to re-duce the county representation. In the hon. Baronet's own county of Warwick the proportion of Members to population was one to 47,000. [Sir EARDLEY

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    WILMOT: I repudiated numbers altogether in this matter.] The main principle of the Bill was to rectify the disproportion between the representation of boroughs and of counties; and as the Amendment of the hon. Baronet was opposed to that principle he was unable to agree to it.
    SIR EARDLEY WILMOTsaid, although he did not admit the argument of the right hon. Baronet, he would ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    SIR EDWARD J. REEDsaid, he felt it his duty to call the attention of the Committee to the omission of the name of Cardiff from the Schedule of boroughs to have an additional Member. The case of Cardiff differed greatly from that of many other boroughs for which an additional Member was claimed; for whereas those boroughs for which the claim was preferred were almost stationary in respect of population, the claim which he ventured to urge on the Committee arose entirely out of the rapid growth of the town of Cardiff. If the Committee would allow him, he would show what that growth had been during the last 70 years in respect of the town of Cardiff alone. In 1811 the population was 2,557; in 1821, 3,521; in 1831, 6,187; in 1841, 10,007; in 1851, 18,351; in 1861, 32,954; in 1871, 56,911; and in 1881, 82,761. Adding-the small contributory boroughs of Cowbridge and Llantrissant, the population amounted to 85,862 for the Parliamentary borough. But, besides that, there was the population of Llandough, Cogan, and Penarth, which had to be taken into account. He considered that the question of boundaries had been very unsatisfactorily dealt with in cases of this kind; because here was a town of 82,761 inhabitants with a number of places having a large and similar population adjacent to it—places which one would have supposed in any Reform Bill worthy of the name would have been included in the Parliamentary borough —and yet this Bill did nothing to bring those places into the Parliamentary borough of Cardiff. He thought that the system of limiting the representation of such towns to one Member an unfair one, and that the requirement that in order to
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    entitle the borough to two Members the population must have increased to 100,000 was also unfair; because, while he could understand some representation of ancient towns being maintained notwithstanding their small populations, he was at a loss to understand why one town of 50,000 inhabitants should be represented by one Member, and another with a prospective population of 100,000 should also be represented by one Member. But the case of Cardiff rested upon its extraordinary development, of which the Bill took no account. In 1881 there were in Cardiff 12,185 inhabited houses; at present there were considerably over 16,000 inhabited houses in the town. So that since the last Census the population of Cardiff had increased from 82,761 in 1881 to the present estimated population of 109,067; and adding to that the present estimated population of Cowbridge and Llantrissant, 3,101, even without adding 8,150 for the population of Llandough, Cogan, and Penarth, this fact resulted—that at the present moment the Parliamentary borough of Cardiff contained a population of 112,168. And the Bill proposed to leave that borough with a single Representative. But there were circumstances which made it not only probable, but certain, that the population would go on increasing for some time to come, and that, at least, at the rate it had increased at hitherto; and he did not know what his right hon. Friend (Sir Charles W. Dilke) would think if, when the next Census was taken, he found that this town, with its 160,000 inhabitants —to which he ventured to say it would attain in 1891—was still represented by one Member. He had said that the town would go on increasing, and that statement was based upon facts well known to the Committee. In the first place, Cardiff was the outlet of a very large coal-mining area, from which about 10,000,000 tons of coal were exported every year; and this town, with an enormous export and a considerable import trade besides, was to remain under this measure represented by one Member. But there were other circumstances which strongly invited the attention of the Government in considering the claims of Cardiff to due Parliamentary representation. In the first place, Cardiff was by all acknowledged

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    the principal town in South Wales. Recently there had been great competition between Swansea and Cardiff; and when the question as to the University College was under consideration it was decided by the arbitrators that the proper position for the College was Cardiff. He believed his hon. Friend the Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn), and his hon. Friend the Member for Glamorganshire (Sir Hussey Vivian), would admit that in the time which had elapsed since the College was established there the town had done everything that could possibly be done for its development. Again, the questions with regard to the Clerk of the Peace and the County Treasurer had been decided in favour of the town. In addition to that, he would mention the large internal trade of Cardiff, the fact that it was the place of residence of three Consuls and 14 Vice Consuls; and, finally, that the colliery meetings and the Government examinations were held there. Now, he thought that all those things went to show that for a town so circumstanced and selected by the Government and by persons of high standing for such distinctions as he had described, with a present population of 112,000, and with the near prospect of having 50,000 added, representation by a single Member was not a very satisfactory arrangement. The population of Wales in 1881 was 1,359,895; it had 30 Representatives, which gave one Member for every 45,296 inhabitants. As he had shown, in 1881 the population of the Parliamentary borough almost touched that figure which, on the basis of the whole population of Wales, entitled it to a second Member; and if the population of additional areas, which might be taken into account for the purpose of giving homogeneity to the whole area represented, were added, it was then fully entitled to two Members. Looking at the figures, he was bound to express his belief that if this most reasonable and moderate proposal to give two Members to Cardiff were adopted by the Government, it would be found that before the Bill, when it became law, had been very long in operation, those two Members would represent a larger population than any other two Members in the county of Glamorganshire. That was his conviction, although the right hon.
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    Baronet might, perhaps, take a different view of the case. He believed the House was not entirely satisfied with being bound hand and foot by the compact entered into by the Leaders of the two Parties, and that if they had had the opportunity of taking the case of Cardiff into consideration they would have found that the proposed arrangement with regard to its representation constituted a great blot and anomaly in the Bill. If his Amendment, which the right hon. Baronet had given him very little encouragement to think would be accepted, were not adopted, he felt sure that, in the course of four or five years, at any rate, it would be discovered that a great mistake had been made. He would, having thanked the Committee for their attention to his statement, only say that if this Bill was to leave populous towns that were in a state of vigorous growth and progress, as was the case with Cardiff, in the hopeless position in which that great town would remain if the Government proposal were carried out, then he thought the Bill ought to have gone beyond its present provisions. He thought the Bill ought to have contained some provision, at any rate, for increasing the representation of growing towns. True, in his opinion, it was highly probable that after the great and valuable change which would be brought about by the Representation of the People Act and the present measure, minor Reform Bills would be much more frequently brought forward than they had been in the past. But whether his Amendment were agreed to or not, he had felt it his duty to call attention to an evil which existed, and which he trusted before long would be remedied. He earnestly hoped, however, that his Amendment would be accepted.
    Amendment proposed,
    In Schedule 3, page 15, column 1, after the words"Bristol—Four"(line 32), to insert the words"Cardiff—Two."—(Sir Edward J. Reed.)
    Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsaid, he must admit that the figures quoted by his hon. Friend showed a large increase in the population of Cardiff; but he had not discussed the scheme developed by his Amendment. He had left them rather in the dark as to whether he in-

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    tended the Committee to take his scheme as a whole or not. In the one case, he (Sir Charles W. Dilke) would have to discuss it a little; in the other, he should have to ask the hon. Member where he proposed to get his Member from? The hon. Member proposed to re-divide Glamorganshire; and he (Sir Charles W. Dilke) should assume, unless they were told that it was not so, that the hon. Member intended to adhere to that proposal. The hon. Member had pointed out that Cardiff was a town which was increasing very rapidly indeed, and had told them that the population was somewhere about 100,000. The hon. Member proposed to take from it the contributory boroughs of Cowbridge and Llantrissant, and add to the Census population of 82,000 a district containing 6,000, which would bring Cardiff up to 88,000. The hon. Member and himself (Sir Charles W. Dilke) were rather fellow-sufferers in this matter, because the borough for the representation of which he had declared his intention of becoming a candidate was a borough of the same population—namely, 88,000— and was rapidly increasing, like Cardiff. The hon. Member had spoken very strongly indeed about the increase of the town of Cardiff, but had told them nothing about the increase of the county of Glamorgan, his object being to decrease the representation of the county for the benefit of the town. He (Sir Charles W. Dilke) must ask the hon. Member to turn his attention to the extraordinary increase which had taken place in the population of the county. The population was now estimated at 270,000, and the rate of increase had, for a good many years, been greater than that of the borough. The increase which had taken place in Swansea, for instance, had been considerable, and in the Rhondda Valley it had gone on at an extraordinary pace; in fact, he should think that the rate of increase in the county was from 2 to 4 per cent higher than that of Cardiff. Therefore, he thought that for the purposes of this discussion they could very well afford to ignore the point of the increase of population. This question of increase was very doubtful, calculations based upon the number of inhabited houses being very liable to error. The proportion of people to houses varied in towns, even in the same places, from time to time,
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    and the difference as between town and town was sometimes very remarkable. From what he could gather, the increase of population in Glamorganshire had been very rapid; in fact, he believed that, with the exception of the increase in the proposed new borough of Fulham, the increase in Glamorganshire had been more rapid than anywhere else. There could be no doubt that the increase of population in Fulham, Glamorganshire, and Cardiff had been more rapid than in any other place affected by the Bill. The hon. Member had proposed a re-division of the county, in order to gain a seat for Cardiff from Glamorganshire; but, by the figures of the Census, that proposal was not justified, nor was it justified by any of the general principles by which they were guided. The county of Glamorgan was a little more favourably treated than some other counties; still, it was treated on the same principle, and it was but a mere accident that its treatment was a little more favourable than that of other places. If they took away one Member from the county its treatment would then be less favourable than that of other counties of the same size. He certainly could not be a party to the taking away of one Member from that county. He should be glad if he could see his way, and he was sure the Committee would be glad if it could see its way, to increase the representation of Cardiff in the manner proposed by the hon. Member. There was no doubt in the world that it was one of the most rapidly increasing seaport towns in the country. It was certain to continue to increase for a great number of years, and it must be considered as one of those places to which the Committee would gladly give a larger representation if it were possible. Whenever they left the line of population, and began to speculate, they got upon very uncertain and unsafe grounds, and his own belief was that they were justified in going upon the line of the Census population, rather than going upon fancy as to the future. The scheme his hon. Friend had placed upon the Paper did not appear to be one which had been entirely worked out in detail. He would call the hon. Member's attention to a fact which he dared say had not escaped the attention of the county Member—namely, that one Petty Sessional Division, that of Kibbor, though

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    it was shown in the map prepared by the Mends of the hon. Member, was not included in the hon. Member's Amendment; so that, should the hon. Member succeed in defeating the Government on this occasion, he would have to amend his Amendment by providing for the Petty Sessional Division, which he had entirely left out in the calculation. However, he (Sir Charles W. Dilke) trusted the Committee would support the Government in the proposal made in the Bill, and would leave the representation of Glamorgan and Cardiff untouched. The Committee would, he was sure, be glad to give a larger representation to the latter place if it could; but they must, all round, go by the Census as a basis of representation. The bringing in of a large population into the Cardiff district was a thing which might be approved of in principle. It was easy to extend a boundary, and bring in a large urban population in some cases, where only a small amount of such population stretched into adjoining urban districts across a county. But in densely populated counties, such as the county of Glamorgan, it was often difficult to extend boundaries, for the reason that when they once commenced they did not know where to stop. It was impossible to lay down a general principle in the matter. There were cases where Parliament had already created districts out of boroughs adjoining one another. They had done this, for instance, in the Potteries; but, on the whole, they had thought it desirable in the case of large, densely populated, urban districts, like the county of Glamorgan, to deal with a large portion of the population on the single-Member principle. That was why Glamorgan had been deal with in this way under the Bill. He was sorry that it appeared to press hardly upon Cardiff; but he did not see his way to diminish the representation of Glamorgan in order to increase that of Cardiff.
    MR. R. N. FOWLERsaid, he had listened with great interest to the speech of the hon. Member opposite (Sir Edward J. Reed), and he thought that a very strong case had been made out for the increase in the representation of the borough of Cardiff; but, at the same time, he could not support the hon. Member if he carried his Amendment to a division. He would make the hon.
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    Member a promise, however. Some hon. Members thought that the measure which had been passed by the Attorney General dealing with elections would put an end to corruption. He was not quite so sure about that, because he believed that boroughs would, in the future as in the past, be disfranchised for corruption. If he had the privilege of being a Member of the next Parliament, and if any borough was disfranchised for corruption, and if the hon. Member would bring in a Bill to transfer that seat to Cardiff, he would have the greatest pleasure in supporting that proposal.
    SIR HUSSEY VIVIANsaid, that the case had been so strongly put by the right hon. Baronet who had charge of the Bill (Sir Charles W. Dilke) that there was no necessity for him to say much about it. He should have been delighted to support the proposal of his hon. Friend for giving another Member to Cardiff, for he thought that Cardiff was fully entitled to a second Member. He believed that in a very short time it would be found a great anomaly that a place which was increasing as rapidly as Cardiff should not have a second Member. But he was constrained to vote against his hon. Friend, because of the proposition put forward of reducing the representation of Glamorganshire in order to effect the operation. The hon. Member had not stated the case upon which he based his attack upon Glamorganshire; and why had he not stated it? Why, for a very good reason—because he had no case to state. The case stood in the simplest possible manner, and he (Sir Hussey Vivian) would venture to give it to the Committee in two or three words. If Cardiff had two Members, each one would represent 43,000 inhabitants, while Glamorgan, which had a population of 235,000, and five Members, had one Member for each 47,000. On what ground was a borough which would have 43,000 inhabitants per Member to take away a Member from a county that had 47,000 per Member? If they did accept the hon. Member's proposal, the result would be that Cardiff would have one Member for every 43,000 inhabitants, whilst Glamorgan would only have one for every 59,000. What justice would there be in that? Then, again, a great deal had been said by his hon. Friend in reference to the

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    increase of the population of Cardiff; but how did the matter stand? Cardiff between 1871 and 1881 increased at the rate of 42·9 per cent—no doubt a very great increase—but the county of Glamorgan, outside the boroughs, had increased at the rate of 45·41 per cent; therefore, the county of Glamorgan had increased 5 per cent more than the borough of Cardiff. Of course, the hon. Member had no case, and therefore he had completely failed to show any justification for asking the Committee to take away a Member from the county of Glamorgan. If the hon. Member had attacked some of the other anomalies in the Bill, such as the small constituencies—there were five in England with a population of under 16,000 possessing a Representative—on the ground that Cardiff should have one Member for 43,000 population, it would have been perfectly right, and he (Sir Hussey Vivian) would have been able to support him. Or, again, if the hon. Member had taken some smaller Welsh constituency, supposing Wales to be limited to its 30 Members, and had proposed to hand over its seat to Cardiff, he (Sir Hussey Vivian) might have been satisfied. There was, for instance, the county of Denbigh, with a population of 88,800 and its two Members. That county had a Member for each 44,400, and it was only increasing in population at the rate of 4½ per cent, against the 43 per cent at Cardiff; and there might, therefore, have been some case made out for giving one of the seats of that county to the town in question. The hon. Member, however, had not proposed that, but had made an attack upon probably one of the strongest constituencies in the whole of Wales; and it was quite impossible for him (Sir Hussey Vivian), much as he desired to see Cardiff with another Member, to support the Amendment.
    MR. RAIKESsaid, he had no personal interest in Glamorganshire, although he had considerable interest in the adjoining county of Monmouthshire; but he could not help thinking that the Committee would do well to pause before they rejected the Amendment which had been moved by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Cardiff (Sir Edward J. Reed). The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board (Sir Charles W. Dilke) had made
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    what appeared to him (Mr. Raikes) a somewhat confused statement with regard to the boundaries between borough and county. The right hon. Gentleman had said that if they divided the Census population of Cardiff by two, they would get one Member for 42,000; and if they divided the Census population of the county by five, they would get one Member for 47,000; and the right hon. Gentleman argued that those figures did not entitle the borough of Cardiff to a better position. But if the county population were divided by four, they would get one Member for 69,000; while the right hon. Baronet (Sir Charles W. Dilke) seemed to forget that by the existing state of things they perpetuated the system under which the county had one Member for every 47,000 people, and the borough of Cardiff had only one Member for 85,000. That made all the difference with regard to the comparative claims of the county of Glamorgan and the town of Cardiff. It appeared to him that the difficulty might be met in a way different from that which was suggested by the hon. Member for Cardiff (Sir Edward J. Reed) in a subsequent Amendment he had upon the Paper. He (Mr. Raikes) did not approve of that Amendment; and if the hon. Gentleman carried this Amendment to a division he (Mr. Raikes) should vote with him on this occasion, but vote against him on the next occasion. Now, the county of Glamorgan contained 235,000 people, and by the Bill it was proposed to divide the county into five districts. There was the borough of Swansea, with a population of 73,000; but two or three minor boroughs which were connected with Swansea brought the population of the constituency to just over 100,000. Then there was a curious mining district composed of a series of mining villages—in this district there was nothing that could be called a large town—which enjoyed the status of a Parliamentary borough under the name of Merthyr Tydvil, with 90,000 inhabitants; and also the great town of Cardiff, with 93,000 inhabitants. It seemed unfair that in an important and populous county like Glamorgan there should be three considerable urban constituencies, and that the largest should return only one Member, and the other two return two each, simply because they were associated

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    with some neighbouring town or borough which brought them up to the population entitled to two Representatives in Parliament. It appeared to him that the true solution of the difficulty of finding an additional Member for Cardiff was not by taking one of the Members away from Swansea, not by confusing the districts which had been provided by the Boundary Commissioners, but simply by throwing the mining district known as the Rhondda Valley into the borough of Merthyr Tydvil. If that course were adopted, the borough of Merthyr Tydvil would be the largest in the county of Glamorgan; it would contain 134,000 inhabitants, but it would not be larger than Leicester, not much larger than Portsmouth or larger than Brighton. A second Member could be given to Cardiff by allotting to it the Member which the Bill proposed to give to the Rhondda Valley. They would thus have Merthyr Tydvil, with 134,000 inhabitants, returning two Members; Swansea, with 105,000 inhabitants, returning two Members, and Cardiff, with about 100,000 inhabitants, returning two Members—a system far more just as between those large towns and the representation of the county than that which the Bill proposed. If his suggestion were agreed to, the representation of the boroughs would amount to one Member for every 50,000 people, while the representation of the county would still remain one Member for every 47,000 people. With regard to the Rhondda Valley itself, he should say that, although marked in the county district, it was considerably smaller in area than the existing borough of Merthyr Tydvil. It was inhabited by a population absolutely homogeneous with that constituency; and by adopting his suggestion they would simply be extending somewhat the area of a district which at present, as he had already stated to the Committee, was composed largely of a number of industrial populations scattered over a very wide district of country, and creating or extending a constituency which would in every way be precisely the sort of constituency which the Boundary Commissioners were instructed to form where they were told to have regard to the pursuits and classes of the inhabitants. He maintained that, without increasing the representation of Wales, which, he admitted, was somewhat large, without
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    doing any injustice to the rival town of Swansea, without doing any injustice to the mining population, whom he would prefer to group together, and without disturbing the arrangements of the Boundary Commissioners, it would be possible, by the adoption of the course he proposed, to give to Cardiff that which was only its due—namely, a second Representative. Cardiff had wealth, intelligence, and importance; it was a place which was growing, and it certainly deserved every consideration from the Committee. He ventured to believe that in the suggestion he had made a real solution of the difficulty would be found; and if his hon. Friend (Sir Edward J. Reed) was fortunate enough to carry his present Amendment, he (Mr. Raikes) would be happy to bring forward the Amendment of which he had given Notice.
    MR. PULESTONconsidered that his right hon. Friend the Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Raikes) had shown how very easily an additional Member for Cardiff could be obtained; but that, after all, was not the question they were now called upon to discuss. All the Committee had now to determine was whether they should insert after "Bristol—Four" the words "Cardiff—Two. "They might differ as to how the additional Member was to be found; but at present they were not required to enter into the matter. Now, it appeared to him that if the hon. Baronet the Member for Glamorganshire (Sir Hussey Vivian) wished to be consistent and logical, he must go into the Lobby with the hon. Gentleman the Member for Cardiff (Sir Edward J. Reed). The anomalies of the Bill were very glaring; but he (Mr. Puleston) thought that none was more glaring than the one with reference to Cardiff. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman (Sir Stafford Northcote) who led the Opposition would be able to tell the Committee that if they voted for the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman (Sir Edward J. Reed) they would not be voting against anything which was considered vital. If it was intended that the Bill should stand the test of any considerable time, the sooner they did away with such anomalies as the one which had been exposed the better. He hoped hon. Members on both sides of the House would have no difficulty in going into

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    the Lobby with the hon. Gentleman (Sir Edward J. Reed).
    MR. MORGAN LLOYDsaid, that, as an abstract proposition, he should be quite prepared to agree with his hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff (Sir Edward J. Reed), because he thought that Cardiff was entitled to two Representatives; but the proposition could not be taken by itself. Before adopting this Amendment it was necessary they should determine where the additional Member was to come from. He had already expressed his opinion that Wales was entitled to retain its 30 Members; but he was afraid that if it was proposed to give an additional Member to Wales, and to take that Member from another part of the United Kingdom, great opposition would be raised. There was no doubt, therefore, that they were confined to Wales to find the Member which was to be given to Cardiff. Now, where was the Member to come from? It had been suggested that one Member should be taken from Glamorganshire and added to Cardiff. The objection to that was quite evident; because the population of Glamorganshire increased as rapidly, if not more rapidly, than the population of Cardiff itself. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Raikes) suggested that the Rhondda Valley ought not to have a Representative of its own. He did not know whether his right hon. Friend (Mr. Raikes) had been through the Rhondda Valley. If he had not, he had something yet to see. He (Mr. Morgan Lloyd) had been through that Valley, and he was convinced that a more populous district that was not actually a town could not be found in any part of the Kingdom. The population was large now, and it was increasing very rapidly; it was, indeed, increasing much more rapidly than the population of Cardiff; and therefore it was absurd to propose that the Member for the Rhondda Valley should be taken away in order that an additional Member should be given to Cardiff. It might be said that a Member might be taken from some other part of Wales. But where from? Breconshire had now two Members; but in future it was only to have one, and that Member would represent about 55,000 inhabitants. If they took one Member from Carmar-
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    thenshire they would create a greater anomaly than the one which existed now with regard to Cardiff. If they took a Member from Pembrokeshire they would create an equally great anomaly. Cardiganshire had already a grievance, because, since the borough had lost their Member, there would be a population of over 70,000 with one Member only. Therefore, there was no means of getting a second Member for Cardiff unless they were to disfranchise the county of Radnor. That, he admitted, was a very small constituency; but they had already taken away one Member, and it would be an extraordinary anomaly if they were to leave a county, either in England or Wales, without a single Member. It therefore amounted to this—that unless a Member could be brought into Wales from some other part of the United Kingdom a second Member could not be given to Cardiff. Although in the abstract he was in favour of the proposal, he was driven to vote against it, simply because it was impossible to find the Member to give to Cardiff. Under the circumstances, he did not think the Bill in this respect could be improved. There was this to be said with regard to Cardiff— that the area within the Parliamentary limits of the borough was not large. If the town increased, it would very soon extend beyond the boundary of the borough, and in the county itself, where it would be represented by the Member for that division of the county. He felt bound to oppose the Amendment for the reasons he had given.
    SIR HUSSEY VIVIANsaid, he could not allow the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Raikes) to pass without a word. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to be under some misapprehension in regard to the number of population. If the proposal to add the parish of Ystradyfodwg to Merthyr were to be carried out, the population, according to the Census, would be 134,113. According to the present existing population of the Rhondda Valley, which was increasing more rapidly than that of any other part of the United Kingdom, the population of the borough would be 150,564. Moreover, the right hon. Gentleman forgot that there was a high mountain between the borough of Merthyr and the Rhondda Valley, and that

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    the inhabitants of the Rhondda Valley had to go round this for some 15 or 20 miles to get to Merthyr. The right hon. Gentleman was entirely mistaken in his description of Merthyr. It consisted of two dense populations — the town of Merthyr and the town of Aberdare. He (Sir Hussey Vivian) protested against such an arrangement as the right hon. Gentleman proposed; for, in his opinion, it was the most extraordinary conception that had ever entered into the mind of anyone.
    MR. RAIKESsaid, he held in his hand a Return which was the latest authority on the subject of the population of the two constituencies. The hon. Baronet (Sir Hussey Vivian) corrected him because he said the united population of Merthyr and the Rhondda Valley — he could pronounce the name of the parish, Ystradyfodwg, quite as well as the hon. Baronet—was 151,000. He had made up the total of 134,000 thus— Merthyr, 01,373; and the Rhondda Valley, 44,046; together, 185,000.
    MR. ELTONsaid, he was acquainted with the neighbourhood of Cardiff, and he was glad to give his support to his right hon. Friend (Mr. Raikes). He did not imagine the inhabitants of the Rhondda Valley would find any difficulty in climbing the high mountain between them and Cardiff; but he would support a proposal to climb a mountain twice as high to get over the enormous anomaly which had been exposed by the discussion. Whether on the ground of historical position or of commercial importance, Cardiff being at the head of the steam coal trade; or whether, in the face of the remarkable fact that Cardiff was increasing rapidly on every side, quite as rapidly as any part of the county of Glamorgan, he would be glad to support the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Raikes).
    SIR EDWARD J. REEDdesired to say a few words in reply to his hon. Friend (Sir Hussey Vivian) before going to a division. He could not assent to the statement of that hon. Gentleman as to the proportionate improvement of Glamorganshire and the town of Cardiff. The hon. Gentleman was ingenious in the use of his figures, for what he had done was that, while his (Sir Edward J. Reed's) statement was based on the
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    actual growth of Cardiff, the hon. Gentleman had based his on the growth of the Parliamentary borough, knowing well that Cardiff was mated with two unprogressive towns a considerable distance from it—namely, Cowbridge and Llantrissant. He (Sir Edward J. Reed) spoke of the actual growth of Cardiff; and, upon re-examination of his figures, he could say that, with less than a fourth of the population of the county, the growth of Cardiff was equal to more than a third of the county increase in the period to which he had referred. The right hon. Baronet (Sir Charles W. Dilke) was very moderate in his statements, and seemed well-disposed towards Cardiff; but he was not fair in one phrase he used. He had spoken of "fancies" in regard to the future. Not wishing to detain the Committee by going into the whole question, he (Sir Edward J. Reed) ventured to say that if there was anything like certainty in relation to increase, it was so in the case of Cardiff, owing to all the circumstances connected with the town. The right hon. Baronet (Sir Charles W. Dilke) spoke of the difficulty with regard to the proposed additions to the borough; but there could be no sort of difficulty, for there were populations lying most unreasonably outside the Parliamentary borough, and practically belonging to the town, and in no way differing in character. Finding his proposal had met with a considerable measure of support, and as this was the only Amendment raised in regard to Cardiff, he would carry his Amendment to a vote. He would leave the question of finding a Member untouched, and hoped he might claim the vote of his hon. Friend (Sir Hussey Vivian), who promised that if he (Sir Edward J. Reed) would not confine himself to his own particular mode of finding a Member he (Sir Hussey Vivian) would be prepared to vote for him.
    Question put.
    The Committee divided:—Ayes 50; Noes 113: Majority 63.—(Div. List, No. 75.)
    MR. RAIKESnow ventured to submit to the Committee the first of a series of Amendments which were directed towards, as he thought, improving the scheme of the Government as regarded the Metropolis. The scheme of the Government, which the Committee was

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    upon, aimed at dividing the Metropolis into a very great number of comparatively small constituencies. It was proposed to abolish those large Metropolitan boroughs, with which they were all familiar, or at least to reduce them, as far as their names were concerned, to very shrunken dimensions, and it was proposed to establish over the whole Metropolitan area a very large number of comparatively small constituencies, returning, in many cases, only one Member each. Now, he had no desire to interfere with the system of single-Member districts; but when he put his Amendment on the Paper he aimed at the preservation of the existing structure of the Metropolitan boroughs, so far as the nomenclature and limits of the present constituencies were concerned, and then dividing these large communities in precisely the same way as the Bill proposed with reference to Liverpool, Glasgow, Manchester, and Birmingham. They were all of them acquainted with the names of the Metropolitan boroughs, most of which, from their first institution, had been represented by very distinguished men. He need not go further in proof of this than mention the right hon. Gentleman who was in charge of this Bill (Sir Charles W. Dilke), and the Prime Minister himself, who, throughout two Parliaments, represented in that House the Metropolitan borough of Greenwich. He thought they might say that the Metropolitan boroughs had justified their existence by returning eminent men in almost every case. There was also this reason for retaining them— they formed the area of election for the London School Board; and if they were broken up into smaller areas for Parliamentary purposes, a new distinction of area would be created for which there was no justification or excuse. He did not see why a number of Members should not be known as representing different divisions of the same place, and preserving the name of the constituency by making it common to all the Members, rather than cutting the constituency up and introducing such new boroughs as "Clerken well," "Newington," and other places of that sort. He did not see any advantage to be gained from this new class of names. There were two of these Metropolitan boroughs which were constituencies of consider-
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    able antiquity. He referred to the City of Westminster and the borough of Southwark. Westminster, he presumed, was as ancient a constituency as any in the Realm, and Southwark was closely connected with the history of mediaeval England. If the Government would not consent to give all the Metropolitan boroughs the same treatment as they gave Liverpool and Manchester, stronger claims could be made out for Westminster and Southwark than for the other constituencies. At the same time he thought that a very strong case could be shown for some of the others. Let them take, for instance, the borough of Fins-bury. There might be good reason for dissociating the great parish of Islington from Finsbury, just as there was some time ago for dissociating the great parish of Hackney from the Tower Hamlets; but why should not the borough of Finsbury remain otherwise unaltered? It might be desirable that great districts like some of those in the Metropolis, which had to return more than one Member, should be separated from the existing constituencies. He recognized this also in the case of St. Pancras, and also in regard to the great parish of Camberwell; but why could not the existing constituencies remain otherwise unaltered? They divided what was left of Finsbury into three constituencies, and called the two new creations respectively Clerkenwell and Holborn; but he could not understand that any special advantage would be gained by returning Members for Clerkenwell and Holborn. Coming to the case of the Tower Hamlets, he would point out that it contained a population who were proud of their connection with the Tower, and who would sooner be constituents of the existing borough than of a new creation such as Limehouse and Mile End Old Town. His Amendment had, in a special degree, reference to the City of Westminster. That constituency which, under the Bill, was to be cut up into three divisions, each returning one Member, had a population of from 220,000 to 230,000 inhabitants, and was, consequently, entitled to four Members. Therefore, if the ancient condition of the constituencies were reverted to, it would be fairly entitled to another Member, which, by the artificial arrangement proposed by the Bill, it was likely to lose. He knew, however, that

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    he should not appeal in vain in the case of Westminster. He did not wish to press that part of his Amendment which related to Chelsea, Hackney, and Lambeth; but he would still ask the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board if he could not see his way to do something in the cases of Westminster, Southwark, Finsbury, and the Tower Hamlets, which had been associated with so many distinguished men, to keep them, as far as practicable, in their old position. In conclusion, he begged to move, as a matter of form at the present moment, the Amendment which stood on the Paper in his name.
    Amendment proposed, in Schedule 3, page 15, column 1, after "Bristol—four" (line 32), insert "Chelsea."— (Mr. Raikes.)
    Question proposed, "That the word 'Chelsea' be there inserted."
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsaid, the right hon. Gentleman had appealed to him to make a statement in regard to the general Metropolitan scheme of the Government, and it might be for the convenience of the Committee if he did so. He might not be in Order; but with the leave of the Committee he would make a statement. Now, the Metropolitan scheme of the Bill had been attacked from two different quarters. There had been a certain amount of hostile criticism from those who, like the right hon. Member opposite, wished to retain the existing Parliamentary boroughs of the Metropolis and then to divide them, and it was also attacked by those who wished to divide the whole of the Metropolitan constituencies into districts of equal size. Those two sets of criticisms to some extent answered each other. The Bill showed a middle course between those two views, and was, therefore, attacked from both extremes. Still, there were certain points in which he thought it would be possible to improve the scheme embodied in the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman had made out a strong case with regard to the retention of the unity of two of the existing constituencies — namely, the City of Westminster and the borough of Southwark. Those were two boroughs which were exceedingly ancient constituencies with their present boundaries; and he agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that there was a greater case for
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    retaining the unity of Westminster and Southwark than there was in any of the other cases he had mentioned. Those were really the only two Metropolitan constituencies who could boast of antiquity in their present shape. Some of the Metropolitan boroughs—for instance, his own (Chelsea)—were completely modern creations, and had not existed long enough for the different parts to have grown together. In the case of Chelsea also there was no desire on the part of anybody to preserve the identity and unity of the present constituency. He did not think, however, that much weight could be attached to the School Board argument which had been advanced by the right hon. Gentleman, because the School Board electoral boundaries could easily be altered at any time. But the City of Westminster, no doubt, was a very large constituency, and as ancient as any in the country. It had great claims upon them, and as an ancient borough with its old boundary it was a constituency which he thought the Committee would be desirous to preserve. Therefore, he hoped he should be able to see his way to retain it as one borough, and divide it into electoral districts. The scheme of the Bill had been the grouping of local government districts where they had a population of under 40,000, and by dividing them and giving them separate representation where they had a population over 50,000. If they were to adopt a different plan for the Metropolis from the general plan of the Bill they would have one difficulty which he did not see his way to meet. There would, for instance, be the difficulty of having no constituted authority to prepare the Registers, and that would create great confusion, especially in the present year. According to the scheme of the Bill as it stood, out of the 59 Metropolitan seats, no fewer than 55 would have the Registers made up by only one authority. In considering what they should do in regard to retaining the old constituencies of Westminster and Southwark, he thought it desirable that they should not attempt to put the boundaries of those boroughs in the Bill at present, but should refer the matter to those gentlemen whose services had been retained to give advice on the subject—namely, Sir John Lambert and Sir Francis Sandford, with Colonel Owen Jones to assist them in

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    this matter. Those Gentlemen would report in time for the Government to place Amendments on the Paper for consideration at the stage of Report. It would then be open to the House to discuss the matter with a full scheme before them. This proposal, however, involved the Government in one difficulty. As the right hon. Gentleman had very fairly stated, Westminster, as divided by the Bill, would have only three Members; but if treated as one constituency it would become, on account of its population, entitled to four Members instead of three. He had considered this matter very carefully, and had taken into consideration the various parts of London in reference to one another in order to see if there was any possibility of meeting this difficulty. With regard to Finsbury, the right hon. Gentleman had proposed to treat the southern end of that constituency exceptionally; but he thought Finsbury would, under any scheme, be entitled to the proposed representation; and he did not suppose that the right hon. Gentleman would suggest any change there. But there were a number of small districts South of Clerkenwell which might be considered, and he would confer with Sir John Lambert and Sir Francis Sandford with the object of throwing those districts into St. Luke's rather than leave them with Holborn. Such a proceeding, however, would offer no help in the case of Westminster. With regard to the Tower Hamlets, the unity of which the right hon. Gentleman proposed to retain, he would rather not commit himself to any proposals which the Government might find it advisable to suggest on the Report. What was commonly known as the "West End" of the Metropolis was, by the mere accident of numbers, under-represented according to the Bill, as compared with what was commonly called the "East End." The City of Westminster, and the parishes of Kensington and Chelsea, contained almost all of what was commonly called the "West End," and they had six Members by this Bill for a population of 480,000. On the other hand, what was commonly called the East End —namely, Bethnal Green, the Tower Hamlets, St. George's-in-the-East, Mile End Old Town, and Limehouse, altogether had seven Members for 410,000 population; so that what was commonly called the East End was over-represented
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    as compared with what was commonly called the West End. If they took the East End in the wider sense of the word— that was, containing the whole of Hackney, the Tower Hamlets and Poplar, as well as the districts he had mentioned— the representation of that district under the Bill was also rather high—namely, one Member to 63,000 of the population, which was above the Metropolitan average, of one for every 65,000. If one Member could be saved from that portion of London, its representation would then be a little below the average, as it was now considerably above it, and it would be still more favourably represented than the average of Metropolitan boroughs. The West End in the wider sense, including the whole of the extreme West, Hammersmith and Fulham, and in the North West, Hampstead and Paddington, was also under-represented as compared with the East End in the wider sense, having only one Member to every 69,000 of its population. Having looked at this matter over and over again, and worked it out in every possible way, he had come to the conclusion that the mere accident of figures had led them to over-represent the East End as compared with the West End. Accordingly he proposed to accept the view of the right hon. Gentleman who had made the Motion, and insert Westminster and Southwark in the Schedule as boroughs to be divided; and he would consider between this and the Report stage, with the assistance of Sir John Lambert and Sir Francis Sandford, what suggestions could be made in regard to the representation of the East End in order to meet the case of the City of Westminster.
    Mr. W. M. TORRENSsaid, he thought it in many respects preferable that the present borough of Finsbury should be divided into two portions, one of them being that which was created in 1832, and which was properly called Finsbury. The borough had borne that name ever since, and he should be sorry to see it obliterated. He had been asked by the inhabitants of that portion of the borough of Finsbury called Bloomsbury, which contained within itself a wealthy and highly educated population, to put forward a claim to distinct representation. He would remind the Committee that Bloomsbury contained within its area Lincoln's Inn

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    and the British Museum, and some of the greatest Institutions in the Kingdom; and, that being so, it was not unreasonable that the inhabitants should have a voice in that House.
    LORD ALGERNON PERCYsaid, as he had himself placed a Notice on the Paper with the view of preserving the City of Westminster intact, and giving it increased representation, he had much satisfaction on hearing the statement of the right hon. Baronet. There had been a strong feeling in Westminster amongst both political Parties that under this Bill the City of Westminster was not receiving justice. Setting aside its antiquity and the historical position of the City of Westminster, and taking the basis of population, and having regard to its voting power or rating value, it was under this Bill greatly under-represented by comparison with other portions of the Metropolis; and he was glad that the right hon. Baronet had seen the justice of the claim for increasing its representation, and was ready to grant it.
    MR. RITCHIEsaid, he must congratulate the City of Westminster on obtaining four Members, to which it was absolutely entitled. With regard to the Tower Hamlets, although he did not think there was any very strong feeling in the remoter parts of the Tower Hamlets, yet he felt sure that the inhabitants of those nearer town would be glad to retain the ancient designation rather than have the new title, which, however respectable it might be in itself, did not suggest the ancient traditions which were conveyed by its association with the Tower. Whilst approving of that, and also the addition to the representation of Westminster, he was bound to say that he had listened with some amount of dissatisfaction to the suggestion made by the right hon. Baronet as to the place from which he was to get the additional Member to be given to Westminster. When they were discussing in Committee an Amendment on a previous portion of this Bill, and he (Mr. Ritchie) was charging the right hon. Baronet with not having agreed to any Amendments, the right hon. Baronet replied that when they came to the Schedule he would not be so rigid as he had been with respect to the clauses of the Bill; but he (Mr. Ritchie) little thought that the first Amendment which
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    the right hon. Baronet proposed to make in the Schedules of the Bill would be directed against the constituency which he (Mr. Ritchie) represented. Now, he did not at all admire the justice of taking a Member from the Tower Hamlets in any shape or form; on the contrary, he contended that there was not the slightest ground or justification for anything of the kind. The right hon. Baronet had spoken of a portion of the Tower Hamlets— Mile End Old Town, Whitechapel, Limehouse, St. George's-in-the-East—and said it might be considered that they were a little over-represented; but he forgot altogether to include in his estimate of numbers that rising portion of the Tower Hamlets, the borough of Poplar.
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsaid, he mentioned the district in such a manner as to include Poplar.
    MR. RITCHIE: But surely the right hon. Baronet would admit that Poplar, taken by itself, was much more underestimated than over-estimated. It was a borough of 156,500 inhabitants, and that would give 78,000 inhabitants to each Member. The borough was, therefore, under-represented. He contended that for the purpose of this Bill they must consider the Tower Hamlets as a whole; and, taking them as a whole, the borough had a population of 437,000, which would give 63,000 inhabitants to each of the seven Members it was proposed that it should have. The right hon. Baronet would find that there were a great many other boroughs which were very considerably below the lowest borough in the Tower Hamlets—he referred to St. George's-in-the-East; all those boroughs had populations under 40,000 inhabitants; and, therefore, he thought that the right hon. Baronet would admit that, taking the Tower Hamlets as a whole, it was not over-represented by having one Member to 63,000 inhabitants. If, as the right hon. Baronet hinted, he should take away that one Member, there would remain six Members with 73.000 inhabitants for each Member, which he contended would be distinctly an under-representation. If the right hon. Baronet wanted to get a Member from London and from the Eastern parts of London, he would recommend that his attention should be directed to the borough of Hackney. It was proposed to

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    give to the borough of Hackney, which had a population of 417,000 inhabitants, seven Members, which would be at the rate of 60,000 inhabitants to each Member, whereas the Tower Hamlets had under the Bill as it stood 63,000 inhabitants to each Member. But if one Member were taken away, there would result the anomaly that Hackney would have one Member for every 60,000 inhabitants, and the Tower Hamlets would only have one Member for every 73,000 inhabitants. He was sure the right hon. Baronet was not the man to say that, because a district was a comparatively poor district, it ought to be imposed on. He should contend that the poverty which existed in some parts of the Tower Hamlets, together with the bad condition of things there, showed the necessity for more representation, in order that the grievances of the inhabitants might be laid before the House of Commons. He regretted that the right hon. Baronet had not told them at that stage of the Bill what he proposed to do in this matter, because he had really had plenty of time to consider the question; and it seemed to him to be essentially a question to be dealt with in Committee, and not on the Report. He would not further detain the Committee on the speech of the right hon. Baronet, be-cause they did not know what his proposals might be; and he would, therefore, simply repeat his hope that the extra Member to be given to West minster would not be taken away from the Tower Hamlets, and that the attention of the right hon. Baronet would be directed rather to increasing than diminishing their proposed representation.
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsaid, he hoped the hon. Member opposite would not press him to make a definite statement on the subject at that moment. He might, however, remind the hon. Member that one portion of the Tower Hamlets was more over-represented than the borough of Hackney. He had promised to give the subject his closest attention. He had stated that he would ask Sir John Lambert and Sir Francis Sandford to look into the question, and form an opinion between then and the Report, the result of which he would frankly state to the House, together with his reasons for dissenting or otherwise from the view taken. He might, however, again remind the hon. Member
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    that one portion of the Tower Hamlets was more over-represented than the borough of Hackney; and even on the hon. Member's own showing the Tower Hamlets were over-represented as compared with the West End.
    MR. ARTHUR COHENsaid, he was obliged to take objection to the political division described in the Schedule with regard to the borough of Southwark, because it united St. Saviour's with Rotherhithe, and St. Saviour's had always been united from time immemorial with the borough of Southwark. On the whole, he must admit that the great majority of his constituents were rather unfavourable to the divisions proposed in the Bill than in favour of them. He expressed his pleasure at the arrangement which had been made by the right hon. Baronet, as he believed that the able Commissioners who had been appointed would report to the satisfaction of his constituents.
    MR. W. H. SMITHsaid, he desired to express his satisfaction with the statement of the right hon. Baronet. With respect to the City of Westminster, it had a population of 229,740 according to the last Census. The right hon. Baronet the President of the Local Government Board had said there had been some reduction; but he thought he would find that had not been the case, for the number of workmen's dwellings erected during the last four years had, in his opinion, more than balanced the removals caused by the action of the Metropolitan Board of Works. But the City of Westminster was certainly entitled, on any scale that was carried out in the Bill, to four Members instead of three, and it was also entitled, in his opinion, to retain its ancient authority. There was a strong feeling in Westminster that it ought not to be divided, which would be the case if the scheme in the Bill with regard to Westminster were carried out. The City of Westminster was rated to a larger amount for the area it covered, and the population which it included than any other borough of the Metropolis except the City of London, or any other portion of the United Kingdom. Its rating mounted to £3,800,000, which was more than double that of any other constituency in the Metropolis except the City of London. He would not pursue that subject; the justice of the claim

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    had been admitted in a handsome manner, and he felt convinced that the ultimate arrangement made would be satisfactory.
    MR. FIRTHsaid, he could not agree with all the opinions expressed by the right hon. Gentleman who had just spoken. The rating of Westminster was between £3,000,000 and £4,000,000, and the rating of Chelsea was also between £3,000,000 and £4,000,000. He understood that certain boroughs — namely, those of Westminster, Southwark, possibly Finsbury, and perhaps the Tower Hamlets, were to retain their old names, which would, no doubt, be satisfactory to the inhabitants of those districts. The people in Chelsea were not anxious, however, to retain the name of Chelsea, which included Kensington as well as Fulham and Hammersmith. There was no historical or other continuity which it was useful for them to preserve. The only suggestion made with regard to them was that made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Raikes) with respect to the School Board area. This discussion had shown clearly the under-representation which the Bill proposed to give to London. They were accustomed to hear Members from various parts of London complaining of under-representation. The hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ritchie) complained that if one Member was taken away from that constituency the inhabitants would only be represented in the proportion of one Member for every 73,000. His own opinion was, that the East End of London should be more fully represented than the West, because it was necessary and right that the interests of the poor should be thoroughly represented, and the rich could get abundant representation in every way. Therefore, to that extent he agreed with what had fallen from the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ritchie). He regretted that nothing had been said in the course of these discussions with regard to increasing populations, although he remembered that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge did exact a pledge from the Government that this would be taken into account. If the borough of Chelsea was to have five Members there would be an average of more than 80,000 inhabitants for each
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    Member, and in the particular district of North Kensington there were now no less than 95,000 people. Therefore, whilst he gladly accepted this measure as applicable to London, it could not be expected that it should be looked upon as final. He did not grudge Westminster an additional Member; but he pointed out that in giving it four Members for 229,740 people it would have a representation of something like one Member to every 57,000 inhabitants, whereas Chelsea was only to have five Members, although if they had six they would not have less than 57,000 inhabitants for each Member. The longer this debate went on the more forcibly was the conclusion thrust upon them that London must have a larger representation than it had at the present time.
    MR. LEWISsaid, that on a former occasion he had taken the liberty of calling attention to anomalies in the Bill with respect to the representation of the Metropolis. He was bound to say that the alterations suggested by the right hon. Baronet removed some of the most glaring of these anomalies, such, for instance, as those pointed out with regard to Holborn, Finsbury, Hanover Square, and St. George's-in-the-East. Unfortunately, however, the suggestion of the right hon. Baronet did not cover the whole of the ground. He thought it was to be regretted that, in making this new departure with regard to the representation of London, they should not have made representation on the basis of population somewhat more even than was proposed. The borough of Lewis-ham had a population of 86,000, and Hampstead a population of 45,000. They were both new constituencies taken out of the counties. What could be said of Lewisham could be said of Hampstead—that they were both largely increasing in population, and that they were very similar in character. It appeared to him that in these cases they were creating a great anomaly which was not likely to rectify itself, and which would be a blot on the representation of London as constructed by this Bill. He could not help expressing regret that when the Government had taken the subject of the representation of London in hand they did not make some more detailed and refined effort to create something like a real proportional representation of the Metropolis.
    MR. FRANCIS BUXTONsaid, he believed that the announcement that the Government would become responsible for the due representation of Westminster would give general satisfaction. There had already been a considerable feeling expressed in Westminster that the constituency would be greatly under-represented, especially as compared with the City of London. In one of the new divisions of the City of Westminster— namely, St. George's Hanover Square, there would be a population of 90,000 returning one Member, whereas another part of London returned two Members for 60,000 inhabitants. The right hon. Baronet would find it no easy task to decide whence the additional Member for Westminster was to come. Whatever might be the decision of the Government, he could only express the pleasure he felt at the intimation given by the right hon. Baronet; and he hoped that the new arrangement under the scheme proposed by the right hon. Gentleman would be satisfactory.
    MR. RAIKESsaid, he merely rose to tender his acknowledgments to the right hon. Baronet in charge of the Bill. Though the right hon. Baronet had not given him quite all he wished, he had given him almost more than he had hoped for—at least, quite as much, he was sure, as the right hon. Baronet felt it was possible for him to concede. The Committee, he thought, was indebted to the right hon. Baronet for the very frank and considerate way in which he had met the Amendment. He (Mr. Raikes) would now withdraw the Amendment immediately before the Committee; and, in doing so, would ask the right hon. Baronet whether it would be in accordance with his convenience if it were now moved to insert in the Schedule the words "Southwark 3, Westminster 4,"and leave the other question to be dealt with on Report? [Sir CHARLES W. DILKE: Yes.] Then I will do it.
    MR. EDWARD CLARKEsaid, that before the Amendment was withdrawn he should like to say a word. He quite appreciated the desire that the names Southwark and Finsbury should be retained in the same divisions which were to be constituted; and he confessed he thought that in both cases it would be desirable that these names should belong each to two divisions only. As regarded
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    Southwark, it would be well to have a Rotherhithe division, and then two divisions of Southwark—East and West; and, as regarded Finsbury, there should be two divisions of that name, and one Holborn division. There were two matters he should like to understand. Southwark was to retain its present boundary, and to be divided into three districts. That was what had been done already. The division had been agreed upon by the Boundary Commissioners.
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: No; in the Bill, not by the Commissioners.
    MR. EDWARD CLARKEsaid, the division had been specified in the Bill, and had been discussed by the different bodies of persons interested in the matter. If any new arrangement was proposed, he thought ample notice should be given of it to suit the convenience of the Southwark people.
    MR. R. N. FOWLERsaid, he should not have taken part in the discussion if it had not been for the speech of the hon. Member for Andover (Mr. Francis Buxton), who was an active Member of the Liberal Party in the City of London. He should think the Liberal Party in the City would be surprised to hear that the hon. Member had come down to tell the Committee that the City was over-represented.
    MR. FRANCIS BUXTON: What I said was that my experience in Westminster was that there was a certain feeling there that they were under-represented still, whilst other parts of the City of London were over-represented.
    MR. R. N. FOWLER: At all events, the hon. Member used the term "over-represented." I want to know who represents the Liberal Party in the City of London? Is it the hon. Baronet the Member for the University of London (Sir John Lubbock), who, I believe, is President of the Liberal Association in the City? Is it the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr. R. Biddulph Martin), who was a candidate for the City at the last election, or is it the hon. Member for Andover, who is going about using all his exertions to get up a contest in the City at the next election? I trust that what has transpired during this debate will become known outside the House, and that the Liberals of the City will know that one of their most active Members, the hon. Member for Andover, comes down and tells us, in defiance of

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    what I believe to be the feeling of the Liberal part of the constituency, that the City is over-represented.
    MR. THOROLD ROGERSsaid, he did not think the question of the City of London, and the utterances of the hon. Member for Andover (Mr. Francis Buxton), worth considering. In consequence of some words which had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman (Sir Charles W. Dilke) but which, unfortunately, he (Mr. Thorold Rogers) had not heard, having been prevented from attending until that moment, he was obliged to say a word or two. The point he was about to explain had not, he thought, been considered in relation to the question which the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Plymouth (Mr. E. Clarke) had referred to. Southwark and Westminster were, no doubt, two of the ancient boroughs of the Metropolis. Southwark had existed in its present form, so to speak, since the Reformation. In the arrangement of 1549 the City of London were bidden to elect Aldermen for Southwark, and they did not do it. They put in a Member of their body as Alderman for the Bridge Without, or some rubbish of that kind. They excluded this district of Southwark, and in default of anything like a legitimate municipal government the local government of Southwark had been carried on by bodies of men whose labour and intelligence, he would venture to say, were as praiseworthy as those of any men who could be found elsewhere. He said that with the greatest confidence, and, no doubt, it would be credited, because he believed that the greater part of the gentlemen who carried on the local government of the several parishes of Southwark were not, politically speaking, very particular friends of his. The services these gentlemen had rendered the district were very great—in fact, in the absence of anything like legitimate municipal institutions in Southwark a very good substitute had been set up there; and he could not help hoping that when the right hon. Baronet the President of the Local Government Board dealt—as he understood he intended to do—with the reconsideration of the boundaries, he would bear in mind that the unity and the reality of local government had been carried on in this particular district. With regard to the arrangement made in
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    the first draft of the Bill, it was to be regretted that in the volume of plans the Government had not given them plans showing the boundaries of the boroughs of London. They had not been given in the Blue Books which had been circulated amongst Members, and it was therefore difficult to make out the geographical lines of the new arrangement. He apprehended, from what had fallen from the right hon. Baronet, that the original proposal would be modified. He ventured to think that these two boroughs of Southwark and Westminster stood on a different footing to the other boroughs, and consideration should be had for them. What had happened in Southwark was this. The Vestry of Bermondsey had memorialized the right hon. Baronet—it certainly had himself (Mr. Thorold Rogers)—in favour of the details laid down in the Bill, and that district had been extremely self-denying in the matter, as its population of 86,000 would make it one of the largest districts in the United Kingdom—especially when they compared the case of Southwark with the charming arrangement of giving two Members to a county with only 50,000 inhabitants in it. He was speaking of the county of Huntingdon, to his mind one of the most scandalous anomalies in that Bill. Southwark contained a population of some 230,000, and had an assessment of £7,000,000 sterling; and yet, on the whole, it was satisfied with the proposed arrangement. There were, no doubt, small districts which were dissatisfied, such as St. Olave's and St. Saviour's. Some consideration, he maintained, should be shown for Local Bodies which had existed for centuries, and which had conducted their business in a way which was above praise.
    MR. WARTONwished to know whether it was intended, on Report, to persevere with the 3rd sub-section of the 8th clause? It would be recollected that by an unfortunate accident the question was not raised in time; and he, therefore, wished now to ask whether the 8th clause would take effect in Westminster and Southwark as it did in other parts of the Metropolis? When the Parliamentary boroughs were divided, would persons be registered as entitled to vote in each division if they possessed duplicate qualifications? He wished to know whether the right hon. Baronet

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    was going to take advantage of the fact that Westminster would still he called the City of Westminster, though divided, and that persons who had two businesses or more in the two parts of that wealthy district would not be able to vote for the respective parts? If that were so there would be a singular difference made between this part of the Metropolis and other parts.
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsaid, that the sub-section to which the hon. and learned Member referred was a subject upon which the House would be free to adopt what course it chose on Report. The matter had nothing to do with the agreement between the two Parties, and was entirely for the consideration of the House. His own impression was favourable to continuing the duplicate qualifications; but many of the voters would still have residential qualifications in Middlesex and elsewhere, and the change would be an enfranchising operation in one direction as well as a disfranchising operation in another.
    MR. BRYCEsaid, that considering what had been said with regard to the representation of the West End of London he felt bound to say a few words on behalf of the East End. Whatever might be the claims of Westminster, and wherever else it might look for additional representation, at any rate it ought not to look to the East End—certainly not to the Tower Hamlets. The Tower Hamlets was not over-represented. If there was to be any difference between one part of London and another it was reasonable that those parts of London which brought the least influence to bear directly on Parliament should enjoy a larger representation in the House than districts more favourably circumstanced in this respect. They all knew that the Prime Minister, when giving the outlines of the Bill last year, had used most copiously the argument that those parts most remote from the centre of Government were entitled to a proportionately larger share of representation. The districts around Hyde Park Corner could bring a large amount of influence to bear upon the House— in fact, four-fifths of the Members of the House lived in Westminster, and were affected by its opinion; whereas the Tower Hamlets was less known to, and less capable of affecting, Members than a district in Lancashire or Scotland.
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    The district of Westminster had a population of 229,000, and, as the Bill stood, would have one Member for every 76,000 persons. If, however, it had four Members, it would have one for every 57,000. The Tower Hamlets would have an average, on the present scale, of one Member to each 63,000; but if its number of Members were reduced to six the population would be 72,000 per Member. That figure would give a much larger average than London generally, which was one Member for each 65,000; whereas, under the Bill as it at present stood, it would have a trifle below the average number. The injustice to the Tower Hamlets, if a Member were taken from it for Westminster, would be very gross, for Westminster, with its more influential population, would have one Member for every 55,000 persons—a very low number (for London) to receive a Member— whilst, as he had said, the Tower Hamlets would only have one for each 72,000, or 17,000 more than Westminster. It would, therefore, be a serious and substantial injustice to the East End, with its constantly increasing population, to deprive it of a Member. If a Member was wanted for the West End there were many boroughs—there were even Metropolitan boroughs, although London was, as a whole, under-represented—better able to spare it than the Tower Hamlets. He hoped the Committee would reject any suggestion such as that proposed, and to which he regretted to see the Government giving any countenance.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    MR. RAIKESsaid he did not propose to move any Amendment until he came to the one, "Schedule 3, page 15, column 1, after 'Sheffield' (line 39), insert 'Southwark three.'"
    MR. WARTONsaid, he should like to know what the right hon. Baronet's reason was for inserting line 39?
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: Nottingham has an enormously increased borough population.
    MR. WARTON: There is nothing on the face of the Bill to show how it has increased.
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: Yes; in the 5th Schedule; and there is a Re-turn before the House showing the increase. It has been enormous.
    MR. RAIKES: I beg to move my Amendment here.
    Amendment proposed, in Schedule 3, page 15, column 1, after "Sheffield" (line 39), insert"Southwark—Three."—[Mr. Raikes.]
    Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: I agree to that, and also to the Amendment in line 40, after "Swansea District," to insert "Westminster—Four."
    Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
    Amendment proposed, in Schedule 3, page 15, column 1, after "Swansea District"(line 40), insert"Westminster— Four."—(Mr. Raikes.)
    Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
    MR. LYULPH STANLEYsaid, it should be thoroughly understood that the extra Member from Westminster must not come from the rest of the Metropolis.
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: This is a portion of the offer I made to the Committee, and which was accepted.
    MR. LYULPH STANLEYsaid, that if another Member were given to Westminster it should be taken from some small county or town like Ipswich. They should disfranchise some small town of 16,000 inhabitants, or take a second Member from some town of 50,000, or a second Member from some small county. They certainly should not take it from a place returning a Member for 60,000, reducing the representation to 78,000 per Member. Hon. Members ought to be free to vote against any special disfranchisement, and to propose any other special disfranchisement they preferred.
    Amendment agreed to.
    MR. FIRTHwished to draw attention to line 41, and to ask why Wolverhampton was to have three Members, whilst Kensington, with the same population, was to have only two?
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: Wolverhampton is the smallest constituency possessing three Members. The line has been drawn just between these two places.
    MR. LEWIS: I have given Notice of my intention to move to take a Member from Wolverhampton.
    DR. CAMERONsaid, he had an Amendment on the Paper to leave out, from Schedule 3, page 15, column 2, sub-head "Scotland," after "Glasgow," the word "seven," and insert "ten." Some of his hon. Friends, when they saw his Notice on the Paper, had said it was rather a "large order;" but it was not so in reality. The Members were there, and the districts were there; and all he wanted was that, instead of calling them districts of counties, they should call them districts of Glasgow. They were really suburban districts, and he wished them to be districts of the city, and not of the county. They were districts contiguous to Glasgow, and contained a population of 160,000. All Glasgow wished to have these districts united to it; and with regard to the inhabitants, many, at least, of the inhabitants of the surrounding boroughs were of the same way of thinking. When the Boundary Commissioners were at Glasgow they were pressed to receive evidence as to whether it was expedient to unite those boroughs with Glasgow for Parliamentary purposes; but they held that they were precluded by the terms of their Commission from accepting evidence of that character. All the other large towns in the Kingdom of anything like the importance of Glasgow were embraced in Schedule 5, and were to have increased representation with enlarged boundaries. But Glasgow had not been placed in that Schedule, and the reason assigned by the Prime Minister for dealing exceptionally with it was contained in his speech in moving for leave to bring in the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman had said—
    "The addition in the case of Glasgow will be four Members, which, added to the three it now possesses, will make a total of seven. The House is probably aware that the case of Glasgow, with reference to its suburban districts, is rather peculiar. There are many parts of those suburban districts which, though parts of Glasgow, for many purposes, are not ambitious—at least, they have not hitherto been ambitious— to be included in the Municipality."—(3 Hansard, [294] 376.)
    That was the impression of the right hon. Gentleman. When the Commissioners had gone down they held that they were precluded by the terms of

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    their Commission from inquiring into the matter. The reason, he ventured to say, given by the Prime Minister for removing Glasgow from the possibility of having the question of the extension of its boundaries considered was founded entirely upon a misapprehension. In 1868, when a proposal was made by the Conservative Government to extend the boundaries of Glasgow, it was opposed by the Liberal Party and defeated. But a great many things had happened since then, and they had now to deal with a very different state of affairs. It made a great difference when a different franchise existed in the counties from that which existed in the towns, and when it was of importance whether a constituency was urban or rural, town or country. It made a difference to the political Parties in those days. But now both the political Parties entertained the same views on the subject. The lion and the lamb were lying down together for the first time, he supposed, in the history of Glasgow. The Liberal Association of Glasgow and the Conservative Association had both petitioned Parliament to allow the boundary of Glasgow, for Parliamentary purposes, to be extended. There was an objection urged, for, as he had said, opinion was not unanimous in the outside burghs. The magistrates and the officials in those burghs did not like the idea of annexation for Parliamentary purposes; but if anyone would take the trouble to read the literature they had circulated on the point it was evident that their objection was to municipal annexation. He was not arguing the question of municipal annexation, and he maintained that municipal extension and Parliamentary extension were perfectly distinct. At the present moment the municipal boundary of Glasgow was considerably larger than the Parliamentary boundary; and in the case of London the Government was committed to a proposal to unite a great number of district Parliamentary boundaries and constituencies into one great Municipality. It was complained that Glasgow was exceptionally treated in this matter. Liverpool had had its boundaries enormously increased, and Bristol was another example of the extreme increase of the boundaries for Parliamentary purposes. They in Glasgow wished to be dealt with similarly. His
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    proposal was that the two districts of Lanarkshire, Partick and Govan, which were purely urban districts, and which by a stranger would be taken for parts of the City of Glasgow, should be for Parliamentary purposes districts of Glasgow, and not of the county of Lanarkshire, and that the portion of Renfrewshire in respect of which a third Member had been allotted, and which was constituted to a large extent of burghs contiguous to Glasgow — should also be united to Glasgow for Parliamentary purposes. He had no doubt that an objection would be raised to the boundaries he proposed for those districts in a subsequent Amendment; but everything except the first Question that the Chairman would put was purely a skeleton proposal on his part. He had placed this Amendment on the Paper simply for the purpose of showing that he proposed an increase of Membership for Glasgow, not on account of any under-representation of his constituency —although it was probably the most hardly dealt with constituency in that respect in the entire Kingdom—but he asked for increased representation with the intention of embracing the three districts he had mentioned. The Question that the Chairman would have to put would be that the word "seven" stand part of the Schedule; and if hon. Members who intended to speak on the matter would confine themselves to that, he thought it would greatly simplify the issue before the Committee. He merely raised the question of the expediency of extending the Parliamentary boundaries of Glasgow, and accompanying the extension with a proportional increase in the city representation. If his Motion were rejected all the subsequent Amendments would fall to the ground. Even if this Amendment were carried, he did not propose to shove the subsequent ones down the throat of the Government. He merely asked the Government to grant an inquiry—to send down Commissioners, as they proposed to do in Westminster and the Metropolitan constituencies, to take evidence on that portion of the case on which they felt themselves precluded from entering by the terms of their Commission. He was authorized by all the different parties in Glasgow concerned to say they would be satisfied with the result of such an investigation. It might be said there

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    would be some difficulty in joining to Glasgow, for example, a portion of Renfrewshire. Well, that would be for the Commissioners to judge. There could be no difficulty about joining the two portions of Lanarkshire which he asked to have annexed to Glasgow for Parliamentary purposes. The change he proposed would have no political effect. The Liberal and Conservative Associations in Glasgow had petitioned in favour of what he proposed; but there had been Petitions against it from two Liberal and Conservative Associations in the country. Meetings of the inhabitants had been held in the districts proposed to be annexed in favour of the scheme, and Memorials had been presented and deputations had been sent up, though he was bound to say those expressions of opinion on the part of the inhabitants had been repudiated by the authorities of those districts. What he wanted, and what the people wanted, was simple inquiry. It might be asked, what difference did it make whether the people of those districts voted in the burghs or in the counties? It made to the political situation no difference whatever. To 157,000 out of the 160,000 persons proposed to be annexed to the Parliamentary burgh of Glasgow it would make no difference. They would have their votes in the one case as in the other. To 3,000 out of the 160,000 who, in the case of their dwelling places being included in the county, would have a vote in the city and one in the county, it would make a difference; they would be reduced to one vote; but a large number had expressed their perfect willingness to forego the exceptional privilege of a second vote for the sake of what they considered a more equitable arrangement. As to Glasgow, the question was, whether they were to control their own representation, or whether one-seventh of the representation was to be handed over to outsiders. The communities concerned were urban and not rural. They had a community of interests for Parliamentary purposes with Glasgow, and not with the county. Their natural base as districts was to be found in Glasgow. When this matter was discussed in Glasgow they heard a good deal about the laudable and natural ambition they had to rank as the second city of the Empire. But he was not going to argue the case to the Committee on sentimental grounds. The
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    ground he took up was the gross injustice proposed to be inflicted upon Glasgow by the present arrangement—a gross and substantial injustice. The object of this Bill was to secure bonâ fide representation of localities. With that object seven seats had been allotted to Glasgow. The right hon. Baronet (Sir Charles W. Dilke) had just told the Committee that the unit of representation in the Metropolitan district was one Member to 65,000; in Birmingham it was one to 62,000; in Liverpool one to 64,000; in Manchester it was one to 70,000. In Glasgow it was one to 73,000. Well, that was bad enough; but if they were to be swamped so far as one-seventh of their representation was concerned by outsiders, the case became a very hard one indeed. It was proposed to divide Glasgow into districts. One of them would be the Central or business district. That district comprised five municipal wards, three of them chiefly business wards, and in those wards 3,768 persons were enrolled as voters in respect of the occupancy of business premises, against 1,700 enrolled in respect of being householders. The disparity between householders and occupiers of business premises was annually increasing. Since 1875 the number of persons enrolled in respect of the occupancy of business premises had increased 13 per cent, whilst the number of those enrolled in respect of being householders had diminished by 27 per cent. Now, of the 4,000 persons who in this Central District were enrolled as voters in respect of the occupation of business premises, about one-fourth resided in other parts of Glasgow. They resided mostly in the West End or College District. Now, those people would vote either in the College or Central District. They took their choice, because they would only be entitled to one single vote. But the 3,000 persons who lived outside would be entitled to a second vote. Now, in the Central District there were 2,800 electors living outside the Municipality and in the burghs which he wished to annex for Parliamentary purposes, and who were enrolled in the Central District in respect of the occupancy of business premises. The residential part of the constituency was only 10,500; but the outside voters enrolled in respect of the occupancy of business premises was each year increas-

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    ing. For many years past that portion of the electorate had been increasing at the rate of 5 per cent per annum. If the arrangement laid down by the Bill was authorized, the first election which took place in Glasgow would find in this Central District 3,000 outside voters who would be able to control the representation of the district, not on account of superior wealth and intelligence, because the 1,000 persons, of precisely the same position in the community, who lived in Glasgow would not have a second vote in respect of their business premises, but because the districts for whose annexation he contended were arbitrarily classed as county districts instead of as districts of Glasgow. This state would arise simply because, on imperfect information, the Prime Minister thought fit to treat Glasgow exceptionally when constructing his scheme. If, on the other hand, those districts which were purely urban, which consisted of residential burghs, were constituted districts of Glasgow—a position they would naturally fall into—the injustice he complained of would be entirely obviated. But if the Bill were allowed to remain as it stood, a phalanx of 8,000 outsiders would, as he had said, control one-seventh of the entire representation of Glasgow. From the sympathy the right hon. Baronet (Sir Charles W. Dilke) had expressed in favour of the "one-man one-vote" principle, he thought the right hon. Gentleman ought to support his (Dr. Cameron's) proposal. All he asked was that Commissioners should be sent down to take evidence as to the expediency of extending for Parliamentary purposes the boundaries of the city—a duty which the last Commissioners were precluded by the terms of their Commission from undertaking. The Leader of the Opposition (Sir Stafford Northcote) was a citizen of Glasgow, and on that ground he claimed that right hon. Gentleman's sympathy. The Conservative Party in Glasgow had been making tremendous capital out of the fact that when the Bill of 1868 was before the House they were entirely in favour of extension. If the right hon. Gentleman declared against this proposal, he would certainly deal to them a heavy blow and sore discouragement. He (Dr. Cameron) did not want anything unreasonable; all he wanted was that the right hon. Baronet (Sir Charles
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    W. Dilke) should do in the case of Glasgow what he had just promised to do in the case of London constituencies—institute an inquiry. He begged to move his Amendment.
    Amendment proposed,
    In page 15, column 2, line 34, after the word "Glasgow," to leave out the word "seven," in order to insert the word"ten,"—[Dr. Cameron,]
    —instead thereof.
    Question proposed, "That the word 'seven' stand part of the Schedule."
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsaid, he did not know what might be the effect on the mind of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for North Devon (Sir Stafford Northcote) of the hon. Gentleman's observation as to his being a citizen of Glasgow; but he (Sir Charles W. Dilke) would like to state to the Committee that his mind in respect to this matter was very largely affected by the question of convenience. His hon. Friend had told them they were dealing exceptionally in the case of Glasgow. He (Sir Charles W. Dilke) could not admit that that was the case. As a general rule the Bill did not deal with very large cities by extending their boundaries, but by dividing them into single-Member constituencies. The Bill dealt in that respect with Glasgow as it dealt with London. They did not by this Bill extend the boundaries of the Metropolis so as to bring in all the urban population; but they created single-Member county districts of small areas. As he had told the Committee several times in the course of those discussions, it was very difficult in many cases to include suburban populations within the limits of the towns. The urban populations frequently stretched along roads, so that to include them in the towns or cities would involve boundaries of very singular form; there were dense populations in the immediate neighbourhood of the City of Glasgow, but there was a good deal of doubt as to what was the wish of the inhabitants of the districts with regard to their inclusion in the city. It must be admitted there was a considerable difference of opinion as to their inclusion or non-inclusion. Possibly, if the inhabitants thought that the Parliamentary question would be settled without any reference to the municipal question, and

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    that the settlement would not afterwards be used as a ground for the extension of the municipal limits so as to include them within the municipal boundaries, they might be more inclined to be included then they were at present. Be that as it might, there was no doubt there was a very considerable difference of opinion amongst those outside communities with respect to the proposal now made by his hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow (Dr. Cameron). His hon. Friend had held out the bait that if the Government granted inquiry in regard to the matter the inhabitants of Glasgow would be satisfied. They only demanded an inquiry. Well, there was an inquiry, and an inquiry. If the Government were to have a full inquiry at Glasgow into such a matter as this by a Commission sent down for the purpose it would be a very formidable affair. He had no doubt that all these police burghs would have to be heard, not only in the person of their magistrates or their official representatives, but by individuals of different shades of opinion. Judging from the great mass of evidence one way and the other, he ventured to assert that any inquiry would interrupt the proceedings in connection with the progress of the Bill in the House. Then it would be impossible to limit inquiries of that character to Glasgow, or to any single case; while in respect to Glasgow itself, it would only raise false hopes as to the possibility of doing that which perhaps could not be done. It might, no doubt, be possible to have an inquiry of a less elaborate character than the one he had described. They might, for instance, ask Sir John Lambert and Sir Francis Sandford to give the House their opinion on the subject; and if it were the general desire of the House that that should be done, no doubt it could very easily and very properly be done. But even then that would be open to the objection of raising expectations which perhaps could not be realized, and of creating a great deal of unnecessary irritation, in addition to the very considerable amount which already existed on the subject. He had thought it right to state these considerations. On the whole, he thought it would be undesirable to hold an inquiry; but he should be glad to hear the views of the right hon. Gentleman (Sir Stafford Northcote) upon the question.
    SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, the right hon. Gentleman (Sir Charles W. Dilke) wished that he should express his opinion on this subject; and of course, after the reference made to him by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Glasgow (Dr. Cameron) he was doubly bound to do so. He was afraid he was not able to concur with the views taken by the hon. Gentleman in the matter. He had heard a great deal on the subject, and had had a great many representations from different classes of persons who were interested in the question; and he was bound to say that, although the evidence was rather conflicting, the impression left on his mind was that it would be wiser and better to stand by the decision which had been arrived at by the Boundary Commissioners, and which had been embodied in the Bill. [Dr. CAMERON: The Commissioners did not take evidence.] He quite understood the objection of the right hon. Gentleman (Sir Charles W. Dilke) to instituting an inquiry into the whole subject. No doubt, if they were to send down Commissioners they would undo a great deal of work, and lead themselves into what would really be a very large and elaborate inquiry. If they did in the case of Glasgow what was proposed, they would probably have to do the same thing in the case of a great many other places, for there were certainly several important places in regard to which similar suggestions to the present had been made. Personally, he was not of opinion that it was desirable to disturb the arrangement before them, because to do so would lead to great delay. Even the modified suggestion of the right hon. Baronet (Sir Charles W. Dilke) would, he thought, be open to very much the same objection. He had, therefore, though not without some hesitation, arrived at the same conclusion as the right hon. Baronet with respect to this Amendment.
    SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKEsaid, he could not give an opinion upon any form of inquiry without knowing what the scope of the inquiry would be. The hon. Member for Glasgow (Dr. Cameron) had said that his only desire was that the Parliamentary boundaries'of the city should be extended; but in regard to that matter he (Sir Edward Colebrooke) did not think the hon. Gentleman spoke

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    for the city which he represented, for the authorities who appeared before the Commissioners stated their objection to an extension of the boundaries. It would be quite impossible to hold the proposed inquiry without raising the whole question of municipal government. This was not a new question; it had been before the country for nearly than 20 years. It was very true, as stated by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Glasgow (Dr. Cameron), that in the year 1867, when the Reform Bill was brought in, there was a vote taken upon this subject; but in the following year the question was brought forward in a form in which the city desired—namely, an extension of the municipal boundaries. The latter proposal was thrown out upon his (Sir Edward Colebrooke's) Motion; and though the question had since been argued again and again, it had never been raised in a definite form. In spite of what his hon. Friend said, he (Sir Edward Colebrooke) did not think, if this Amendment were adopted, that six months would elapse before a Bill was introduced into Parliament for the purpose of extending the municipal boundaries of the city. That certainly was the belief of his constituents. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board (Sir Charles W. Dilke) had said there was considerable difference of opinion upon this subject in the urban districts it was proposed should be annexed to Glasgow. That, no doubt, was the case. The burghs which had been mentioned were, he admitted, part of the overflow of the City. When they were first formed they were not; 20 years ago they were distinct communities, and had their existence in their proximity to a great navigable river and great mineral fields. In the burgh of Govan there was a population of 60,000, and 11,000 rateable persons. The feeling there was most decidedly adverse to the present proposal, for the meeting at which a resolution in favour of the proposed annexation was adopted was only attended by 753 people. No doubt, there was considerable apathy on the subject throughout the different districts concerned; but that was owing to the belief that the Government would stand by the decision of the Commissioners. He deprecated very strongly the raising of this question under the present Bill. If
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    the inquiry asked for were granted, the door would be opened for a very wide discussion, and in all probability the end of that discussion would not be seen by the time the Bill was ready to receive the Royal Assent. Moreover, there was another and proper tribunal for dealing with questions affecting the extension of boundaries; and so long as that tribunal was open he objected in the name of his constituents to the subject being raised in the present manner. The division of the county was very satisfactory, and it ought not to be upset unless very strong reason was shown.
    MR. T. RUSSELLsaid, he would like to say just one word as to what had fallen from the hon. Member for North Lanarkshire (Sir Edward Colebrooke) as to the municipal extension of Glasgow, being involved in its Parliamentary extension. He denied that that would be so. The question now before the Committee had really nothing to do with municipal extension. It was simply a question of Parliamentary extension; and although there was a feeling that municipal extension would be acceptable, there was at present no general movement in that direction. The districts proposed to be comprised within the constituency included nine police burghs and several other districts not yet constituted. Several public meetings had been held in these burghs; and they had universally, by a majority, expressed a desire to be included within the City of Glasgow. The population proposed to be included was 160,000, of which 80,000 was wholly residential— that was to say, the residents came to Glasgow daily. The shipbuilding districts of Govan and Partick were urban in their nature, and quite homogeneous. As one who was present at the public meeting held by the Commissioner, he could testify to the serious feeling of disappointment which was entertained at the Commissioner being limited so in his inquiry. That feeling was shared by men of both political Parties, and by those outside as well as inside the burgh. They were universally agreed that the inclusion within the city of certain outlying districts would be a very desirable thing. To show the inconvenience of this, he need only mention one circumstance. In one case the electors belonging to a population of over 5,000 would have to walk two miles

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    through the City of Glasgow in order to reach their own polling place. In another district, in. which he resided himself, 9,000 people had signified then-wish to be included within Glasgow. He thought that perhaps there would be a little difficulty about further inquiry; but that difficulty had been greatly magnified. In fact, inquiry had been made already. Investigations had been going on for some time; and information was now in the hands of the citizens, and ready to be submitted to a Commissioner, if one should be sent down. He therefore submitted that the inquiry asked for would be very acceptable to the City of Glasgow and the surrounding districts; and he was sure that whatever decision the Commissioner might come to would be acquiesced in.
    SIR JOHN HAYsaid, he was sorry that his right hon. Friend (Sir Stafford Northcote) agreed with the proposal of the Government. The shipbuilding interest was represented on both sides of the City of Glasgow; and in his opinion they ought to be either boroughs by themselves, or united to Glasgow, with which all their business was connected. All the shipbuilding firms had their houses in Glasgow. They were, in fact, entirely connected with Glasgow, and not with the county. It seemed to him, therefore, that the same rule ought to be extended to Glasgow by including its industries, as had been adopted in Liverpool and other cities which had had their boundaries enlarged for that very purpose. The population of Glasgow was almost identical with that of Liverpool; but the number of Members given to Glasgow was only seven, whereas Liverpool had nine. That seemed to him to be putting one of those marks of inferiority on Scotland which were elsewhere to be found in the Bill. He was certain that, so far as Scotland was concerned, that could not be considered a lasting settlement.
    MR. CRUMsaid, that after the expression of opinion from both Front Benches, and the speech of the hon. Member for North Lanarkshire, it was unnecessary for him to detain the Committee at so late an hour by any further argument against the Amendment. He need only say that the position taken by the President of the Local Government Board, which showed that the Govern-
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    ment would adhere to the recommendation of the Boundary Commissioners in regard to the County of Renfrew, would be entirely satisfactory to his constituents, both burghal and rural.
    MR. ORR-EWINGsaid, he hoped the Government would see their way to granting the inquiry. There seemed to be some doubt in the minds of some hon. Members who were not familiar with the circumstances of the case. He was not present at the Commission during the time it sat; but from what he knew of the feelings of the inhabitants he thought the Amendment of his hon. Friend (Dr. Cameron) would enable them to carry out their wishes. The proposed inquiry was only for the purposes of Parliamentary elections. The hon. Member for North Lanarkshire (Sir Edward Colebrooke) had persistently and consistently opposed the junction of the populous places around Glasgow with the Municipality of Glasgow. But this Amendment did not touch the municipality question at all. In fact, the municipal boundaries could not be altered without the assent of the inhabitants of these burghs. But perhaps the hon. Baronet (Sir Edward Colebrooke) was not familiar with the fact that there had been meetings in almost all the burghs around Glasgow, expressing a wish to be united to Glasgow for Parliamentary purposes. The hon. Baronet said that since 1868 there had been no attempt to combine those burghs with the Municipality of Glasgow. If he was not mistaken, the Police Bill introduced by the Lord Advocate in 1883 provided for the amalgamation of these burghs with the City of Glasgow; but he was sorry to say that Bill did not pass. The contiguity to Glasgow was an advantage to the burghs of Govan and Partick, and why should they be exempt from municipal taxation? However, that question was not before the Committee that night. The question now was the extension of Glasgow by the combination of those burghs for Parliamentary purposes. It was obvious that in a few years they would be joined and form a portion of the city. Yet Glasgow would then have only seven Members, when she would be entitled to ten. It was a great pity that Glasgow, which was generally acknowledged to be the second city of the Empire, should by this legislation be put down in the eyes of the world to be

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    only the fifth or sixth city of the Empire. All he wished was that the Government should do what he thought they seemed inclined to do—namely, to send down a Commission to make a thorough inquiry as to the necessity and fairness of the proposed extension.
    MR. TENNANTregretted very much that the President of the Local Government Board had not conceded the inquiry, especially as he believed that the materials for that inquiry would be brought before him without loss of time. Both parties wore prepared to state a case, and he thought they ought to have something in the shape of an investigation before the House did what he believed would be a permanent wrong to the City of Glasgow. They were all pretty well agreed that those outlying burghs were really the overflow of Glasgow. Their interests were purely urban; they had no interests connected with the county. Their prosperity and progress depended on the prosperity and progress of the City of Glasgow; and when they were in distress—as lately they all knew they had been unfortunately—they did not go to the landed proprietors and farmers of Lanarkshire and Renfrewshire, but appealed to their own brethren in the City of Glasgow, and he was glad to say they rarely asked in vain Therefore, on the ground of their urban character, the inhabitants of those burghs were entitled to be citizens of Glasgow. If the granting of this Commission, and the extension of the boundaries of Glasgow for Parliamentary purposes, should be necessarily followed by an extension of the municipal boundaries, he was prepared to argue that on both grounds it would be an advantage. What was the condition of Glasgow in a municipal point of view? There were more employers of labour and heads of mercantile firms living without the boundary than within the Municipality. Of the 118,000 houses in the City of Glasgow, only 6,000 were rated above £5; the remaining 112,000 were below; thus leaving the responsibility of municipal government, not on the wealthy merchants and employers of labour, but on the artizans and poorer classes. If the present arrangement wore continued, the whole burden of the City of Glasgow would be thrown on the poor, who were rated at £1, £2, £3, and £4; because the number of houses rated at £5 and
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    upwards was gradually diminishing, while the number of smaller houses was proportionately increasing. At the present moment, about 70,000 people in Glasgow were living in single rooms. That was an exceedingly regrettable state of things, and ought to be remedied. This was not at all a political question. It was a question of what was just and safe for the city, and he thought they were doing a great injustice by continuing the municipal boundaries of Glasgow as they were. The fact was that the boundaries of Glasgow to-day were as they were in 1832. They were slightly increased in 1868; but, for all practical purposes, they were the same as in 1832. And what took place then? There were four burghs—Gorbals, Anderton, Bridgeton, and Calton—which were in exactly the same position as the burghs with regard to which reference had been made that night. They were included within Glasgow for Parliamentary purposes; but for municipal purposes they were not included till 1846— 14 years afterwards. It did not at all follow, therefore, that if they now extended the Parliamentary boundaries, the municipal boundaries must be at once similarly extended. For those reasons, he thought it would be a wise thing for the Government to grant the inquiry, and so prevent a great injustice being done to the second city of the Empire.
    MR. J. A. CAMPBELLsaid, he thought the question was not why the districts immediately surrounding Glasgow should be included within the Parliamentary boundaries of that city, but why they should not. If the right hon. Baronet (Sir Charles W. Dilke) would grant the inquiry, which he expressed himself as in some measure willing to do, it would be a great satisfaction both to the City of Glasgow and the suburban districts, and he should be surprised if the Commissioners did not recommend the extension now asked for.
    Question put.
    The Committee divided:—Ayes 110; Noes 35: Majority 75.—(Div. List, No. 76.)
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsaid, he would now move that the Chairman be directed to report Progress, for though the Government would have been very glad indeed to have finished this Schedule that night, it was understood that

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    considerable importance was attached to the next point which would be raised upon it. He hoped, however, that the remainder of the Schedule would not occupy much time to-morrow night.
    Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again,"—(Sir Charles W. Dilke,)—put, and agreed to.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

  CAPE OF GOOD HOPE (ADVANCE) BILL.— [BILL 101.]
  [Sir Arthur Otway, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Hibbert.)
  CAPE OF GOOD HOPE (ADVANCE) BILL.— [BILL 101.]

    SECOND READING.
    Order for Second Reading read.
    MR. HIBBERT: Mr. Speaker, in rising to move the second reading of this Bill, it is only right that I should offer a few words of explanation as to its object; and I think I can say that that object is quite as much, or perhaps more, political than financial, though, of course, it is true that the financial arrangements of the Bill are made upon satisfactory terms and upon satisfactory security. The Bill is for the purpose of enabling the Government to make a loan to the Cape Colony for the purpose of continuing the railway from Hope Town, on the Orange River, to Kimberley—a distance of 74 miles. Great inconvenience is felt at the present time in regard to matters of transport between those places, and even civilians experience the greatest difficulty in arranging for such transport. Indeed, we are informed that so great is the pressure for transport upon that distance between Hope Town and Kimberley that, although 6s. per 100 lbs. used to be the rate for the conveyance of goods, it is now the case, owing to the extraordinary difficulties of transport, that that sum of 6s. has actually risen to 15s. Of course, that makes the Cape Government very anxious, if possible, to complete the railway. It may be asked, why do not the Cape Government find money in the Colony for the purpose; but I am sorry to say that in the Cape, as well as in this country, there is depression of trade, and the Cape Government have found it very difficult to raise money either there or here for such an object; and as they were authorized in the year 1883 to raise £1,000,000 for public purposes,
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    and as they still have unexhausted powers to borrow £400,000, they have applied to Her Majesty's Government to assist them in this emergency. Now, the question is, why should Her Majesty's Government, not having for some years past made any loans to any Colonial Government, or guaranteed any of their railways—why should Her Majesty's Government help the Cape Colony at the present time in the manner proposed? It is because this line, when constructed, will be of great assistance to the Military Expedition which is now in Bechuanaland; and it is calculated that if the railway were made, it would, so long as the Expedition lasts, lead to a saving of something over £2,000 per month—I believe the calculation is £2,250 per month. Her Majesty's Government therefore think that this is a matter which is deserving of consideration, and I may say at once that that is the main thing which has induced the Government to enter into this undertaking. Then there is the question, what is the security which is to be given for the loan? In the first place, the Cape Government transfer to the Treasury a sufficient number of 5 per cent debentures to the amount of £400,000, with a margin of £25,000 over the £400,000—that is to say, they transfer as security for the repayment of this loan debentures to the value of £425,000. They also undertake to complete the railway within eight months; and if it is not completed in that time, then, instead of paying 3½ per cent interest for the loan, they will have to pay 5 per cent. I therefore think it may be said that the arrangement is not an unsatisfactory one for England, and it is certainly a satisfactory one for the Cape. Under these circumstances, I think we may fairly ask the House to give a second reading to this Bill. No doubt the policy embodied in it differs to some extent from the principle in which we have acted of late years; but I think there are strong reasons for the proposals for carrying out this particular undertaking, and I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Mr. Hibbert.)
    SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH: I do not wish to discuss the financial details of this proposal, because I am quite pre-

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    pared to admit that, so far as I can understand them, if the principle of this Bill be sanctioned there can be no objection to its details. But the hon. Gentleman has very properly stated that this is a measure of a very exceptional character, and contrary to the policy adopted by this House for many years past in dealing with the Colonies. It is a guarantee of money to a Colony possessing a responsible Government to construct a railway, the principal object of which is to develop the trade of that Colony with the interior. That is not a principle which would bear a wide interpretation or frequent application. The question is whether this particular case is so exceptional as to warrant the Bill which has been presented to us. The hon. Gentleman, looking to the nature of the undertaking, said that if it were merely considered as a commercial undertaking, it might be expected that the Cape Colony would themselves supply the money to carry it out. He went on to refer to the depression of trade in the Colony and the difficulty which the Colony had in raising money for any purpose. No doubt there has been a very great depression for the last year or two in the Cape Colony; but, without wishing to go at any length into this question, I may say that those who are most intimately concerned in the affairs of the Colony would almost unanimously admit that the present financial condition of the Colony is mainly due to that uncertainty as to its future which has resulted from the policy of Her Majesty's present Advisers. But the whole of the hon. Gentleman's argument in favour of this Bill was of a temporary character. He referred to the Imperial advantages which might be derived from this railway, if it should be at once constructed, by the Expedition which is now under the command of Sir Charles Warren in Bechuanaland. Well, no doubt that is a matter which deserves very serious consideration; and as it is put forward as an argument—and I admit a very important argument—in favour of the Bill, I hope we may have some statement from the Government as to the present position of that Expedition —that we may be told what Sir Charles Warren has done and what he is going to do. We have all seen telegrams from South Africa on this subject of a more or
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    less conflicting character, as those telegrams always are. Speaking in the absence of any official information, it seems to me that Sir Charles Warren is performing his task with great firmness and courage, and that he decidedly deserves, not only the support, but the complete confidence, of Her Majesty's Government. But I should like very much to hear something more definite than we know at present as to the condition and progress of that Expedition. I will only express a hope that Her Majesty's Government will take care that Sir Charles Warren's proceedings are not brought to an end until he has completely carried out the whole object of his Expedition to Bechuanaland, and that there will be no undue haste in attempting to carry out the desire which has been expressed by the Cape Government for the annexation of that territory to the Cape Colony. I think, as was pointed out by Sir Charles Warren himself in his comments on the instructions which were delivered to him, that that is an essential element in the success of his undertaking. I do not want at this late hour to detain the House; but there can be no doubt, not only of the temporary, but of the permanent importance of this railway which the Bill is intended to develop.
    MR. MONKwished to point out to the House that this was the first proposal which had been made since the present Government came into Office for a Colonial loan. He believed the last proposal was made in the year 1879, when the late Government were in Office, under the West India Loans Act. It really was a very serious thing, when a Government had been in Office for five years, that they should come forward and propose that this country should guarantee another Colonial loan, especially after the numerous speeches which had been made by the present Prime Minister against Colonial loans. He (Mr. Monk) recollected that so long ago as the year 1869 he acted with his right hon. Friend now President of the Local Government Board (Sir Charles W. Dilke) in moving the rejection of one of these Loan Bills; and though there was a strong feeling shown in favour of that measure, it was only carried on a division by a narrow majority of 10. At that time the present Prime Minister said

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    that before 1865 the practice had been slowly growing up of giving these guarantees, and the right hon. Gentleman contended that such guarantees ought not to be given except for objects of broad Imperial policy. He (Mr. Monk) was not satisfied, from the explanations given by the Secretary to the Treasury(Mr. Hibbert), that this railway would be of any great use for Imperial purposes. To begin with, it was proposed that the railway should be completed in eight months; but he very much doubted whether it was possible for it to be finished in that time, or for it to be of any use for their troops. What the House was asked to do was to recur to a most objectionable system—a system which had been condemned, he thought, by almost every Gentleman now sitting on the Treasury Bench. Unless some stronger reasons could be given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in favour of departing from the rule observed by Parliament during the existence of the present Government, he hoped the House would not agree to this Bill. He moved that it be read a second time on that day six months.
    Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."—(Mr. Monk.)
    Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
    SIR HENRY HOLLANDsaid, that he rose to support this Bill, and he desired, in the first place, to point out to the House that the hon. Member for Gloucester (Mr. Monk) had misunderstood the character of the Bill. He had treated it as a case of a guarantee, which it was not, and therefore his objections to it failed. It was an advance to the Cape Government. He agreed, however, that such advances should not be made except in special cases, and he did not desire that this Bill should be treated as a precedent for making advances except in such cases. He thought this was an exceptional case, looking to the state of things in South Africa; and he understood that the right hon. Baronet (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) took the same view, though he regretted—and in this regret he (Sir Henry Holland) shared— that the Government had given the House so little information as to the exact state of affairs in that country.
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    He believed, however, that this railway, when completed, would prove of great and immediate service to the Cape Government, and he thought it might also prove of use to this country in the future, unless peace was restored in Bechuanaland. He wished to be satisfied upon one part of the financial arrangement provided by this Bill, which was not in the usual form. He observed that advances might be made by the Home Government before the Colonial Legislature had passed any law providing, to the satisfaction of the Treasury, for the repayment of the advances and interest thereon. That this was the case would be seen by a reference to Sub-section 3 of Clause 3 of the Bill, by which it was provided that if the Legislature of the Colony did not pass such a law within a reasonable time, &c, the Treasury might refuse "to make any further advance;" and the Colonial Government were, in such case, to pay interest at the rate of 5 per cent, instead of 3½ on the advances already made. Now, if the present Colonial Government, or their successors—and changes of Government were tolerably frequent at the Cape— declined to introduce such a law, or if the Colonial Legislature declined to pass it, it was clear that the Home Government could not enforce the return of any advances, nor the payment of increased interest. He presumed that in such case, though not a very probable one, the Home Government would recoup themselves out of the debentures to be deposited with them by the Government of the Colony under Clause 3, Sub-section 1. He wished to know whether he was right in that assumption?
    MR. COURTNEYsaid, he did not propose at that late hour (1 o'clock) to enter into the question of the policy of this particular advance. He was content to rely on what had been the long accepted principle of all Governments formed from the Liberal side of the House—that it was very injudicious to enter upon these advances to Colonial Governments. He thought the burden of proving the case rested entirely upon Her Majesty's Government, and he did not think the case had been satisfactorily made out by the Secretary to the Treasury. He wished to point out one very extraordinary portion of the agreement, so far as it appeared in the Bill, which was his first acquaintance with it.

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    It had already been referred to by the hon. Baronet the Member for Midhurst (Sir Henry Holland). The Agreement was one apparently entered into between Her Majesty's Government and the Government of the Cape Colony; but it seemed to have been rather forgotten how very insecure in its position a Government at the Cape usually was, and how much it depended on a Parliamentary majority, which was very easily turned from one side to the other. It was an Agreement with the Government of the Cape, and had not been submitted to the Legislature of the Cape. If they were going to safeguard the financial interests of this country, they ought at least to secure that no advance should be made under the Agreement until the Legislature of the Cape had entered into an equal obligation with the Legislature of this country which we had entered into towards them. This was the first time he had ever seen in a Bill such an entity referred to as "the Government of the Colony," and he did not know what was the legal acceptation of the phrase. It might be, as the hon. Member for Midhurst had pointed out, that the Cape Legislature might fail to pass a law upon the subject. In what position would they be then as to the amount which, up to that time, might have been advanced? He thought it was clear that they would then be unable—because the Bill did not contemplate such a contingency—to exact 5 instead of 3½ per cent. If the Legislature of the Cape refused to ratify such legislation, how could they obtain from the Revenue of the Cape that extra charge which was to be the penalty for non-fulfilment of the contract? They could not propose, by any Agreement with the Cape Government, to impose a penalty upon the Cape Legislature. His hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury relied upon the debentures. He (Mr. Courtney) did not know whether there was any lawyer upon the Treasury Bench who could give them any light upon the subject; but he had very great doubt himself as to whether the deposit of those debentures could, under the circumstances he was suggesting, be made use of. He was supposing the case of the Legislature of the Cape proving hostile to the carrying out of this Agreement. He knew the Act of the Capo Legislature to which his hon. Friend had referred. It enabled the Colonial
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    Government to raise money upon debentures which should be issued at par at rates to be settled by the Government from time to time. He was not quite sure, but he rather thought there was an actual legal decision under which, though a Colonial Government might have power to raise money upon debentures to be issued at par, it had no power to pawn the debentures—it was not thereby enabled to carry the debentures off to some other part of the world and raise money upon them by pawning them. Yet that was the proposal made here. A certain number of the debentures in excess of the amount of the loan were to be pawned. That was not issuing them at par, but at a discount, in direct violation of the requirements of the Act itself. The whole transaction amounted to this—that if the Legislature viewed the Agreement with hostile eyes and did not carry it out, they would have advanced money and they would be unable to realize the security. They would have advanced money upon an illegal security. Under those circumstances, and quite apart from the political objections to the transaction which were exceeding grave, the financial aspect required a good deal of explanation, and he hoped that some further information would be given to the House before the next stage of the Bill was taken.
    MR. PULESTONsaid, he had no interest in the Bill, but he had had some opportunity since he first saw it of conversing with some people from the Cape who were sufficiently authorized to go into the facts of the case. He had ascertained in a way which satisfied his own mind that this proposal met with the approval of almost everybody in the Cape, and it was inconceivable that the Cape Legislature would refuse to ratify it, because they got, on very easy terms and in a very easy way, money to construct a work of great national importance to them. Therefore, although he agreed with some portion of the remarks of the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, he thought they must take something for granted in discussing this question, and certainly they might feel perfectly secure that no Legislature at the Cape would venture to refuse to pass a law ratifying this Agreement, in view of its terms and of what it was designed to carry out. He wished to correct one

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    statement made by the hon. Member for Gloucester (Mr. Monk), who had called this arrangement a guarantee. It was not a guarantee, it was an absolute loan, and it was made in the interests of this country as well as in the interests of the Cape.
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS): As the financial question has been raised, I may be allowed to correct what appears to me to be a misapprehension on the subject at the present moment, and to explain what the financial grounds for this proposal really are. The question is a very simple one. We were urged by the Military Department to assist the Cape Government in more rapidly constructing this railway in consequence of the advantage that would accrue to Her Majesty's Government in connection with the Bechuanaland Expedition, and because of the extremely onerous and expensive method of conveyance from the Orange River to Kimberley. There was no prospect of the railway being made during the course of the Bechuanaland Expedition unless Her Majesty's Government came to the rescue, and the Military Department would be saddled with a large expenditure for transport which would be necessary during the course of next year if there were no railway. That was the inducement for the Bill. I entirely concur on general principles in all that has fallen from the right hon. Baronet opposite (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach). Nothing would induce me to be a party to such a Bill if it were merely to lend money to a Colony for railways for the ordinary purposes of transit or commerce. But this is really in the nature of a military work, and is an exception to the general rule, which I accept quite as strongly as my hon. Friend the Member for Liskeard (Mr. Courtney). Then what was the arrangement which we had to make? My hon. Friend has asked—"Why did you not require an Act to be passed by the Cape Parliament in the first instance?"[Mr. COURTNEY: Oh, no.] I mean before an advance was made. Well, Sir, the whole reason was this. The Legislature of the Cape is not in Session, and it would be utterly unreasonable to require that Legislature to meet simply for the purpose of ratifying the arrangement under this Bill, if we had what we considered sufficient secu-
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    rity without it. We, therefore, took this precaution, stated very plainly in the 3rd section of the Bill, that there should be deposited with us a sufficient amount of debentures, with a margin beyond the amount of the loan; and we conceived that there could not be any more proper security than the deposit of such debentures that we could possibly ask for. So far, therefore, from the debentures which we are to receive being foreign to the object of the Bill, as my hon. Friend appears to think, they are distinctly germane to its object, because they are debentures on which the Cape would raise money for the very purpose of constructing this railway. We are satisfied with the inquiries we have made. We think the Cape Government are perfectly competent to deposit these debentures with us, and that if the Cape Legislature does not pass the Act completing our security, these debentures will be available, and could be disposed of by us in this country in respect of the first instalment which is not met. The security of the Treasury is, therefore, complete. The whole case is this—that, finding that the Cape Government have power to construct this railway, we have agreed, for military purposes, to lend them the money on the security of debentures. If, after making the first advance, the Colony does not go on with the undertaking, Her Majesty's Government, under the 1st clause of the Bill, have power to say they will make no further advance. I think that I have now answered conclusively the point raised by my hon. Friend.
    MR. R. N. FOWLERsaid, that having travelled over the country in question, he would like to make one or two inquiries of the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies. He believed that it would be an easy thing to construct this railway from the Orange River to Kimberley, because he apprehended that no engineering difficulties were involved; but he would be glad to know what it was proposed to do with regard to crossing the Orange River. There could be no doubt that when it was called into existence, it would be a most important line. The House was aware that the Diamond Fields at the Cape were of great importance to this country, and he might say to the world, and it was a great

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    object to the Cape Government to extend the system to the Diamond Fields. It was obvious also that the military operations in Bechuanaland would be greatly promoted by the construction of the railway. He would be glad if the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies would say whether it was intended to make a bridge across the Orange River?
    MR. FRANCIS BUXTONsaid, his hon. Friend the Member for Devonport (Mr. Puleston) had treated it as a matter of course that the Government of Cape Colony would be ready to make this railway. The object of the Bill, as had been pointed out, was to advance a large sum of money to the Cape Government, who would be responsible for the construction of the railway, the avowed object of which was to assist Sir Charles Warren and his Forces in Bechuanaland. It appeared to him that the Capo Government were far from friendly to this Mission, and, indeed, almost hostile to any military measures being taken at all. Under the circumstances, he asked whether the Government had taken due security and guarantee from the Cape Government that this railway should be pushed on with the utmost possible celerity, so that it might be used by Sir Charles Warren's Forces in returning from Bechuanaland?
    MR. CROPPERsaid, he looked with satisfaction on this railway, which would open up Bechuanaland. When he considered the fact that there was a Colony of 50,000 people at Kimberley, and that it would be on the line of the direct route into Africa, he could not help thinking that the railway itself would very soon reward the Colonists. He was of opinion that so far as the line itself was for a definite object the Colonists at the Cape would always regard it with satisfaction. The hon. Gentleman who introduced the Bill had brought forward, one very marked fact—namely, that the present rate for goods carried into the interior was 15s. per 100 lbs. weight. That alone was sufficient to show the need of better means of transport than the miserable waggon road which was at present the sole route by which goods could be carried into the interior.
    THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: I can assure the hon. Member for Andover (Mr. Francis Buxton), that if
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    he will examine the Bill closely, he will see that security has been taken that the railway will be pushed on with all possible speed. It is to be completed within eight months, and in the event of that condition not being complied with, it will be a question with the Imperial Government whether to make any further advance or not. With regard to what has been stated by the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach), the Government admit that this is an operation of an entirely exceptional character, which cannot be more strongly marked than by the fact that the proposals to the Treasury were made, in the first instance, not by the Colonial Department, but by the War Department. Representation was made by the Cape Colony that they were not in a position to proceed with it financially immediately, and they represented to us that, in view of the military operations in Bechuanaland, it might be an object of very great importance in prosecuting the war there. The question was considered by the War Department, and we were convinced that if those operations which are now proceeding under Sir Charles Warren, in Bechuanaland, were to be continued for any length of time, they would, by means of this railway, be greatly facilitated, and that if, unfortunately, operations more active than those now in operation were necessary, it would be of great advantage to have this railway—an advantage which could hardly be measured by any pecuniary cost. We thought this a question which might very properly be brought before the Colonial Office and the Treasury— that an advance might be made from the National Exchequer under the exceptional circumstances of the case. We believe that this would be a very proper use of the public money, and although the matter has passed out of our hands, I believe security has been obtained which will protect the Exchequer against any loss. The right hon. Gentleman has asked whether any information had been received with respect to Sir Charles Warren's Force, and the operations which have taken place. I am very sorry to say that the Government have very little detailed information as to the movements of Sir Charles Warren's Force, although I am expecting to receive fuller information every day. All we know is, that Sir Charles Warren

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    has moved the Force under his command with great rapidity, with great energy, and apparently so far with success. He has, I believe, provisionally settled the affairs of Stellaland; he is now in Goshen, and, so far as we know, entire success has attended all the operations which he has undertaken; he has not only not met with any opposition, but I believe he has been cordially received by a very large proportion of the population, and apparently he is making very fair progress with the Mission intrusted to him. As soon as we are in a position to make a fuller statement to the House, we shall take an opportunity of doing so; but the information we have received is so very slight that it is impossible at the present time to make any detailed statement. In reply to another question of the right hon. Gentleman, I can assure him that there will be no undue haste on the part of Sir Charles Warren's Force to leave the territory; but until we have fuller accounts than we now possess from Sir Charles Warren as to the whole position of the situation, it will be impossible to state what will be done. Certainly, after the exertions we have made, and after the success which has attended so far upon Sir Charles Warren's Expedition, I may assure the House that the Government will do nothing which would tend to undo the work which Sir Charles Warren has accomplished, and that we shall do all in our power to give fuller information on the subject.
    MR. R. N. FOWLERsaid, he should like to know what arrangement had been made with regard to the bridge across the Orange River?
    MR. HIBBERTsaid, that a contract for the bridge had been taken.
    MR. COURTNEYsaid, he wished to point out to the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he had not touched his point at all. He was afraid he had not made it clear. The point he had endeavoured to make, and which he wished his right hon. Friend to take up and look into before the next stage of the Bill, was that these debentures could not be used in the way proposed under this Bill. The debentures were issued under an Act of the Cape Legislature which gave power to issue debentures to meet its occasional wants. The words of that Act were not being carried out in the present case,
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    and therefore it would appear that the security proposed under this arrangement was no security under the Act. His right hon. Friend would doubtless see whether there was anything in the point he had raised by consulting with the Law Officers of the Crown and the Treasury. The simple fact was, as it appeared to him, that the debentures supposed to be available as security could not be used for the purpose of a loan.
    MR. HIBBERTsaid, perhaps his hon. Friend was not aware that an Act had been passed by the Cape Legislature in 1884, which authorized the construction of the railway and the use of the money available under the former Act for the purpose of making the railway? The Government were satisfied that those two Acts, taken together, formed a perfect security.
    MR. PULESTONasked if power was vested in the Cape Government to borrow money in this way?
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS)said, that the Government were satisfied, from inquiries made, that the Cape Government could deposit the debentures for the purpose of the railway, and that there would be no question as to the security. He was quite willing, however, to look into the matter again before the Bill went into Committee.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Main Question put, and agreed to.
    Bill read a second time, and committed for To-morrow.

  PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (RETURNING OFFICERS) BILL.
  (Mr. Attorney General, Sir Charles W. Dilke.)
  PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (RETURNING OFFICERS) BILL.

    [BILL 99.] SECOND READING.
    Order for Second Reading read.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—{Mr. Attorney General.)
    COLONEL MAKINSsaid, he hoped the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill would give some explanation with regard to it.
    MR. H. H. FOWLERsaid, the Bill related to uncontested elections. Under the existing Act, where there was no contest, the Returning Officer was en-

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    titled to demand that one-fifth of the amount of his expenses should be deposited as security. If they amounted, for instance, to £300, he was entitled to a deposit of £60. It had been pointed out that this was an excessive amount, 'and when the subject was brought forward the Attorney General said he would propose that the amount should be reduced. The present Bill proposed that the amount of the deposit of one-fifth should be reduced by half. He (Mr. Fowler) believed that those who had had experience would agree that the ordinary expenses of an uncontested election would be amply secured by this amount.
    COLONEL MAKINSsaid, he thought it would have been well to have included in the Bill some provision for the exceptional circumstances which would arise under the Parliamentary Elections (Redistribution) Bill. The number of Returning Officers required to be appointed would be far in excess of the present number; and it was a matter of extreme importance to ascertain whether there existed any local power for the appointment of a sufficient number of Returning Officers to discharge the necessary duties in connection with Parliamentary elections. It was obvious that those duties would be very different in the future from what they had been in the past. There would be in some cases six divisions, and in others as many as 20; and special provisions would have to be made to meet such cases. He doubted whether any authority existed at present to enable or compel the High Sheriff to appoint a sufficient number of Returning Officers, so as to insure those duties being performed. As far as he could judge, the Authorities were not at all satisfied that there was any power which enabled them to appoint those Officers, or compelled them to do so. This matter came within the scope of the Bill as it now stood, and the object of the Bill would seem thoroughly to justify the insertion of a clause which would remove the disability which he believed now existed. Without detaining the House any further, he would simply observe that he had felt it his duty on that occasion to draw attention to this matter on the Motion for the second reading of the Bill, which seemed to afford an opportunity of making a necessary reform in order to meet the altered circumstances
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    that would arise in connection with Parliamentary elections.
    MR. WARTONsaid, he had no wish to speak on the Bill in the absence of the Attorney General; but he was compelled to do so on this Motion. It would be in the recollection of the House that he had received from the Attorney General, whose absence he regretted, a kind of promise that he would afford him an opportunity on this Bill of raising a question of practical importance to all candidates at the next General Election. He had taken the opportunity of pointing out, either on the Report or the Committee stage of the Elections in Counties (Hours of Polling) Bill, he did not remember which, that in the Parliamentary Elections (Corrupt Practices) Act there was an inconsistency between two of the Schedules of that Bill with regard to the Returning Officer's charges. The Attorney General said that he should have an opportunity of raising the point upon the present Bill, and, therefore, he would be glad to know whether it was the intention of the Government to remove the inconsistency?
    THE SOLICITOR GENERAL (Sir FARRER HERSCHELL)said, the hon. and learned Member for Bridport had correctly stated that when the Attorney General announced his intention of introducing this Bill, he said that although it was intended for a particular purpose, he would take care that the title was wide enough to take in the question raised by the hon. and learned Member. His hon. and learned Friend, however, had not pledged himself to introduce in the Bill any provision of the kind referred to; but he had undertaken to introduce a Bill with such a title as would enable any hon. Member to raise the question which the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Warton) had raised. With regard to the other matter, to which the hon. Member for Mid Somersetshire (Mr. R.H. Paget) had called attention, it had frequently been referred to, and it seemed to him that it would be more properly dealt with in the Parliamentary Elections (Redistribution) Bill, which had reference to the Returning Officers. [Mr. R. H. PAGET: Only in boroughs.] Yes; but any alteration with regard to the counties would more properly come within that Bill than the one it was now proposed to read a second time, for the

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    Parliamentary Elections (Redistribution) Bill dealt with the question of who were to be the Returning Officers. He quite admitted that the subject was well worthy of attention.
    MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid, he was glad to hear from the hon. and learned Gentleman that the Bill had been enlarged in its title. The pledge which had been made had, he thought, gone a little farther than the hon. Gentleman the Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler) had said, for the Attorney General had not confined himself entirely to uncontested elections, but had, he thought, also said something about contested elections. He hoped such clauses would be introduced into the Bill as would tend to economy in the way of reducing the expenses of elections. He was sorry the Government were not going to take the initiative themselves, because he thought that such action on their part would meet with general consent. He did not think there was now a person in the House who wished to pay a farthing more than they could possibly help in connection with Returning Officers; and unless those items were effectually kept down, the Parliamentary Elections (Corrupt and Illegal Practices) Act would fail in its purpose of making Parliamentary elections inexpensive and open to larger classes of the community.
    MR. STAVELEY HILLwished to point out that, although the title of the Bill was wide enough, the scope of the measure was limited by the Preamble. He would call attention to that more especially with regard to the remarks which had fallen from the hon. Member for Mid Somersetshire. He would ask the Government whether they would be willing to introduce new clauses dealing with this subject into the Parliamentary Elections (Redistribution) Bill on Report? They had passed through all the clauses of that Bill in the Committee stage, and it would not, therefore, be possible now to introduce new clauses until they came to the Report stage. It would be difficult for a private Member to carry such clauses as those he suggested, unless he were promised by the Government that they would accept his proposals. Would the Government give such a pledge?
    THE SOLICITOR GENERAL (Sir FARRER HERSCHELL)said, that a Com-
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    mittee was to sit, for the first time, tomorrow, to go into the question of registration, and they might be able to afford some assistance in the matter; but, however that might be, he should recommend the county Members who took an interest in the subject to recommend their views to the right hon. Baronet who had charge of the Parliamentary Elections (Redistribution) Bill (Sir Charles W. Dilke). If they would let the right hon. Baronet know what they wished to be done, and would show him the necessity of it, no doubt he would endeavour to meet them.
    MR. SEXTONsaid, he had stated, last year, that the effect of the new franchise would be to greatly increase the number of working-men candidates, but that the present scale of charges made by the Returning Officers would be prohibitory to this class of candidates. He had understood the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister to assent to that view; and he had gathered from what fell from the right hon. Gentleman that the Bill to be introduced would not only affect the expenses to be paid at uncontested elections, but also at contested elections. The question that really affected the constitution of the House was not what a man should pay in the event of there being no contest, but what he should pay if the contest took place. If the Bill was to meet the necessities of the case, it would have to deal with the question of the scale of expenses in the case of contested elections, and would have to face the question of working men's expenses.
    MR. R. H. PAGETsaid, that, with the permission of the House, he would ask the hon. and learned Gentleman the Solicitor General to consider this question. The hon. and learned Gentleman had suggested that probably the Amendment he (Mr. Paget) desired could be introduced in the Parliamentary Elections (Redistribution) Bill. He himself thought the Parliamentary Elections (Returning Officers) Bill was the right place for it; and the hon. and learned Gentleman had made another suggestion — namely, that probably it would be as well to leave the matter to the consideration of the Registration Committee. Between these three stools it was not unlikely that they might fall to the ground; and he would, therefore, ask the hon. and learned Gentleman

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    whether they should press an Amendment, wait for the Report of the Parliamentary Elections (Redistribution) Bill, or go to the Committee on Registration?
    THE SOLICITOR GENERAL (Sir FARRER HERSCHELL): I would recommend the hon. Gentleman to take the course he desires in relation to the Parliamentary Elections (Redistribution) Bill, as I think the subject is more directly relevant to that measure.
    Motion agreed to.
    Bill read a second time, and committed for Thursday.

  COUNTY OFFICERS AND COURTS (IRELAND) [PENSIONS].
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of special pensions to Clerks of the Crown and Clerks of the Peace in Ireland, under certain circumstances."—(Mr. Campbell-Bannerman.)
  MR. SEXTON: I move the adjournment of the debate.
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid, that before that Motion was put the hon. Member should understand what was the character of the Bill which would be founded upon this Resolution. The Bill would relate to the Treasury, and would authorize the pay and pensions of certain officials in Ireland. The offices of Clerks of the Peace and Clerks of the Crown in Ireland were, under a certain Act passed in 1877, to be amalgamated. Cases, however, occurred where when one office became vacant it was not desirable to propose the holder of the other office to fill it, and where, consequently, a temporary appointment was desirable. In these cases there would be a pension and a temporary salary running at the same time, and the Local Authorities would have to bear the burden of a double payment. A case of this kind had recently arisen in Dublin; and what the Government were now seeking to do was to enable the Treasury to undertake the payment of the pensions so long as temporary salaries were paid for these duties. The present was merely a formal stage of the Bill.
  MR. SPEAKER: Did I understand the hon. Member (Mr. Sexton) to move the adjournment of the debate?
  MR. SEXTON: No; I did not, Sir.
  MR. BIGGARsaid, that, no doubt, Clerks of the Crown and Clerks of the Peace in Ireland were scandalously overpaid; and he would suggest to the right hon. Gentlemen that while he was on the subject he should make inquiries to ascertain what was reasonable compensation to these gentlemen for the amount of service they performed. In many cases they were practising attorneys, who were in receipt of good private incomes, and, whilst receiving official salaries of £1,200 a-year, paid a small amount to clerks who did the bulk of their work for them. Every ease of that kind he looked upon as a scandalous job. The Act had been passed at the instigation of Members who wished to make provision for their election agents. It had been pushed through, and the ratepayers had been saddled with payments for a long period in a most scandalous manner. The matter deserved to be looked into, and, if possible, these payments should be curtailed. If Her Majesty's Government could succeed in curtailing the salaries of the men in possession, the money so saved would make provision for their successors.
  Resolution agreed to; to be reported To-morrow.

  ARMY (ANNUAL) BILL.— [BILL 104.]
  (The Marquess of Hartington, The Judge Advocate, Sir Thomas Brassey.)
  ARMY (ANNUAL) BILL.— [BILL 104.]

    SECOND READING.
    Order for Second Reading read.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(The Marquess of Hartington.)
    MR SEXTON: I object. The Motion is only on the Paper for the first time to-day, and consequently Members have not had an opportunity of putting down a Notice of opposition.
    MR. SPEAKER: This is an Order of the Day, and the fact of the hon. Gentleman's objecting does not prevent it from coming on.
    MR. SEXTON: I thought that when such a Motion appeared on the Paper for the first time objection could be taken.
    MR. SPEAKER: That applies only to a Notice of Motion.
    MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid, that before the Bill was read a second time he should like to ask whether the Government were in a position to state how the Volunteers from the Colonies would be circumstanced in regard to military law when they were serving with the British or Indian troops? A similar question had been put the other day; but he believed that no clear or definite answer had been returned.
    THE JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL (Mr. OSBORNE MORGAN)said, he would answer the question as far as he could. The question involved the consideration of a great many Acts of Parliament which were not at present before him. He might say—to speak generally —that all the Volunteer Forces raised in any of the Colonies—with the single exception of the Cape Mounted Rifles, who were under a discipline of their own—were, when on military service, placed by the Colonial Legislatures under our military law. There were some modifications in the application of that law, however, so far as such Forces were concerned, the most important of which was that they were not liable to corporal punishment. Again, some of the Colonial Forces could only be tried by courts martial consisting of their own officers. Looking to those discrepancies, and to the importance of placing all men serving under the same flag under the same discipline, he had advised—and he thought the arrangement would be carried out—that the Colonial Forces serving with the British Forces should be put unconditionally under Imperial military law; but that could only be done with the sanction of the Colonies themselves. The hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Sexton) had spoken of the Bill having only been circulated that morning—
    MR. SEXTON: No; I said this stage had only appeared on the Paper this morning.
    THE JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL (Mr. OSBORNE MORGAN): I think it was put on the Paper on Saturday.
    MR. SEXTON: Yes; but this is the first Sitting of the House since it was put down.
    THE JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL (Mr. OSBORNE MORGAN)said, that, at any rate, the Bill was a simple one.
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    It was merely a renewal of the old Army Act, with only four Amendments in it, all of which were very simple. He should not have asked the House to read it a second time that night if it had proposed any serious change in the law. If the second reading were now agreed to, he should not propose to take the Committee stage until Thursday.
    MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORasked, whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman was of opinion that the law observed in the Colonies as to Colonial Volunteers would have effect when the Volunteers were serving beyond the jurisdiction of the Colonies?
    THE JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL (Mr. OSBORNE MORGAN)said, he could explain that matter. Under the 177th section of our Army Act, Colonial Forces serving with our Forces were placed under our military law, except so far as the law of the Colonies was inconsistent with that law. Of course, if the Colonies made their law consistent with ours, the Colonial troops would be under our military law altogether.
    MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid, his hon. Friend the Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) had not taken exception to the second reading of the Bill on trivial grounds, or merely for the purpose of causing inconvenience or annoyance to Her Majesty's Government or to the House; but he had had a very distinct and definite object. No one was better aware than the right hon. and learned Gentleman in charge of the Bill that the hon. Member had brought before the House very often a special grievance as to the Regulations of the Army. At present, the Army Regulations were such that the wives of soldiers when deserted were practically left unprotected. The hon. Member, in bringing the matter before the notice of the House, had acted from time to time not merely in obedience to his own feelings, but in consequence of representations which had been made to him and to several other Members of the House by persons interested in removing the grievance. The amendment the hon. Gentleman wished to bring about in the law was to compel soldiers to maintain their wives when removed to a distance from them. At present, it was optional with the Commanding Officer to compel the soldiers to maintain their wives; but

    369
    the hon. Member desired to remove that option.
    THE JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL (Mr. OSBORNE MORGAN)said, that he had two years ago consented to make a promise which was then optional compulsory. It was compulsory now.
    MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid, that his hon. Friend had watched the case much more closely than he had; and he (Mr. T. P. O'Connor) should be very much surprised if his hon. Friend were wrong. It was for the reason he had mentioned that the hon. Member had objected to the second reading. He would point out that hon. Members had been taken at a considerable disadvantage by the Government in regard to this Bill. If a Member of the Government were to be allowed to give Notice of the second reading of a Bill for the following Sitting at the very moment the House was rising, then all opportunity of blocking such Bill was taken away, and, consequently, all opportunity of securing that it should be taken at a proper hour of the night.
    THE JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL (Mr. OSBORNE MORGAN): I think I am right in what I said. In the Army Act were the words, "The Secretary of State may order," &c.; but in consequence of the action of the hon. Member, those words were changed to, "The Secretary of State shall order a sum not exceeding," &c.
    MR. SEXTONsaid, the Act said "not exceeding," so that the Secretary of State might do what he liked.
    MR. WILLIAM REDMONDsaid, he thought it extremely unfair that this Bill should be read a second time at that hour of the night. There were a large number of Members who were extremely interested in all affairs relating to the Army; and he had no doubt— and he was sure the right hon. and learned Gentleman who was now seeking for the second reading of the Bill also had very little doubt—that if proper Notice had been given by the Government of their intention to move the second reading that night, many Members would have been in their places who were now absent—who were absent simply because they were under the impression that the Government would not attempt to go on with the Bill at that hour of the morning. However, he merely wished to enter this protest. With regard to the question raised by the hon.
    370
    Member for Queen's County (Mr. A. O'Connor), he should be very glad if he could elicit a little information from the right hon. and learned Gentleman in charge of the Bill. The right hon. and learned Gentleman had said, in reply to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Queen's County, that the Volunteers and Colonial Forces serving with the British Army were under British military law. He (Mr. W. Redmond) wished to have an emphatic assurance on that point. Were these soldiers who were serving with the British Army at their own expense under British military law? That was a question which had been raised before, and in which he knew a great many people to be interested. If those men were not amenable to British law, were they amenable to Australian law; and, if not, then to what law?
    MR. KENNYsaid, he thought the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) was quite correct in the point he had raised; for though the word "shall" had been substituted for "may," the obligation was still practically optional, inasmuch as the Commanding Officer could order the soldier's wife to receive "any sum not exceeding," &c. He could order a very small sum to be paid. The condition of the law was very unsatisfactory, the obligation being really a nullity. He thought the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Judge Advocate General ought to accede to an adjournment of the debate. A quarter past 2 in the morning was an extremely unreasonable hour for such a discussion as that. The question involved was very complicated and very interesting; and looking at those facts, and at the unusual hour at which the Bill had been brought on, he begged to move the adjournment of the debate.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Kenny.)
    THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: I really hope the House will accede to the second reading of this Bill to-night. It will, I think, be seen that the point referred to by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) and the hon. Gentleman who spoke last, is one which, if raised at all, should be raised in Committee. My right hon. and learned Friend does not intend to bring

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    on the Committee stage until Thursday, which will give ample time for hon. Members to bring forward any Amendments they think it right to bring forward. Under the circumstances, I trust the House will not think it desirable to agree to the Motion for Adjournment.
    MR. SEXTONsaid, he thought that it would perhaps be as well for them to accept the suggestion of the noble Marquess, and put down Amendments for Thursday; but, with all respect to Mr. Speaker's ruling, he was still in great perplexity as to why the Standing Order embodying the Half-past 12 o'clock Rule did not apply in this case, when a Member objected to the Order being proceeded with.
    MR. SPEAKER: The ruling I have given has been given more than once from the Chair, and there can be no doubt about it.
    Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
    Original Question put, and agreed to.
    Bill read a second time, and committed for Thursday.

    EAST INDIA (LOAN) BILL.
    Resolution [March 19] reported, and agreed to:—Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir ARTHUR OTWAY, Mr. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, and Mr. KYNASTON CROSS.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 109.]

MOTIONS.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (POOR LAW) (NO. 2) BILL,
  On Motion of Mr. GEORGE RUSSELL, Bill to confirm certain Orders of the Local Government Board under the provisions of "The Divided Parishes and Poor Law Amendment Act, 1876," as amended and extended by "The Poor Law Act, 1879," relating to the Parishes of Aller, Barrington, Berecrocombe. Camerton, Curry Mallet, Curry Rivall, Drayton, Dunker-ton, Earnshill, Fivehead, High Ham, Huish Episcopi, Isle Abbots, Isle Brewers, Kingsbury Episcopi, Kingsdon, Long Sutton, North and Mid Littleton, Pitney, Puckington, Somerton, South Littleton, and Swell, ordered to be brought in by Mr. GEORGE RUSSELL and Sir CHARLES DILKE.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 107.]

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (POOR LAW) (NO. 3) BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. GEORGE RUSSELL, Bill to confirm certain Orders of the Local Govern-
  372
  ment Board under the provisions of "The Divided Parishes and Poor Law Amendment Act, 1876," as amended and extended by "The Poor Law Act, 1879," relating to the Parishes of Ashcot, Bridgewater, Cannington, Chedzoy, Chilton Trinity, Durleigh Etching-ham (two), Fiddington, Goathurst, Grointon, Hawkhurst (two), Huntspill, Lyng, Middlezoy, Mountfield, Nether Stowey, North Pethorton, Othery, Otterhampton, Overstowey, Sandhurst, Shapwick, Stockland Bristol, Wembdon, Weston Zoyland, and Wollavington; and to the Hamlet of Edstock and Beer, ordered to be brought in by Mr. GEORGE RUSSELL and Sir CHARLES DILKE. Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 108.]

  REGISTRATION OF VOTERS (IRELAND) BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN, Bill to amend the Law relating to the Registration of Parliamentary Voters in Ireland; and for other purposes connected therewith, ordered to be brought in by Mr. CAMPEELL-BANNER-MAN and Mr. SOLICITOR GENERAL for IRELAND.
  Bill presented, and read the first time.[Bill 110.]
  House adjourned at a quarter after Two o'clock.