Commons Sitting of 23 June 1885

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Metropolis (Hughes Fields, Deptford) Provisional Order Confirmation* [205]; Metropolis (Tabard Street, Newington) Provisional Order Confirmation* [204].
Report—Tramways Provisional Orders (No. 2)* [L66]; Tramways Provisional Orders (No. 3)* [167].
Considered as amended—Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 2)* [192].
Third Reading—Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 5)* [190]; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 6)* [197], and passed.

QUESTION.

  THE EXECUTIVE GOVERNMENT (IRELAND)—SPEECH OF MR. CHAMBERLAIN.
  MR. COLERIDGE KENNARDgave the following Notice:—On the first day of Sitting to ask the late President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Chamberlain), "Whether he is correctly reported as having, in a recent speech, charged the
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  late Government with ruling Ireland in a spirit of unjustifiable oppression, comparable only to the rule of Russia over Poland and of Austria over Venice; and, if so, whether the Cabinet, of which he was a Member, agreed to the course he pursued of thus publicly denouncing the Russian and Austrian systems of government?
  MR. CHAMBERLAIN: Perhaps I can save the time of the House by answering the Question at once. I did not use language which I think is capable of the interpretation put upon it by the hon. Member. What I said was, that the government of Ireland resembled that of Russia in Poland and that of Austria in Venice in its centralized and bureaucratic character.

MOTION.

  PARLIAMENT—ADJOURNMENT—ACCEPTANCE OF OFFICE BY THE NEW MINISTERS—STATEMENT OF MR. GLADSTONE.
  MR. GLADSTONE: Information which has been conveyed to me enables me to acquaint the House that Lord Salisbury has definitely accepted Office, and that his Cabinet is in the course of designation and appointment—I presume at an advanced stage—so much so that he is confidently able to expect that to-morrow, if it be the pleasure of the House to meet to-morrow, the Writs may be moved for the re-election of the Members for those places where Members of the Government may have vacated their seats. As I have no doubt that the House will be disposed to comply with that invitation, the most convenient course to take will be this—and I have no doubt the House will be disposed to comply with the invitation—that I should move the suspension for to-morrow of the first Standing Order which relates to Sittings on Wednesday; that I should then move that the House at its rising do adjourn until 5 o'clock to-morrow, which is the hour indicated by Lord Salisbury on the part of the incoming Government, and that then the House should forthwith adjourn.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Standing Order No. 1 be suspended, and that this House, at its rising, do adjourn until To-morrow at Five of the clock."—(Mr. Gladstone.)
  MR. JESSE COLLINGS: I see by the newspapers that an arrangement has been made between the Leaders of the two Parties to press forward certain Bills; but I do not find that a Bill of the utmost importance to tens of thousands of the new electors of the country is among the number—namely, the Bill to prevent disfranchisement by the receipt of medical relief. At present, therefore, the House is placed in a somewhat unfortunate and awkward position. Those of us—and I believe we form a majority of the House—think that that measure ought to be included among the number to which importance is to be given. More than a fortnight has now elapsed during which the suspension of the Business of the House has been going on. When the late—or perhaps I ought to say the present—Prime Minister moved the other day that the Orders of the Day should be postponed, he made an exception in favour of two measures, one of which he urged related to non-contentious matter—the Princess Beatrice's Annuity Bill, while the other was germane to the great measure of Reform which has just been passed—namely, the Lords' Amendments to the Parliamentary Elections (Redistribution) Bill. Now, the measure to which I refer comes, at any rate, under one, if not both, of those heads; and, therefore, I would urge upon the Government, or upon the Leaders of both Parties, to give some assurance that it should be included among the important measures to be pressed forward under the agreement which has been arrived at. Otherwise it would, I think, be my duty to take the sense of the House on the question, as I believe the majority of the House would be found to be in favour of proceeding with it. Indeed, I am not sure whether the House would not even be willing to take another stage of the measure to-night, and to read the Bill a second time tonight. Seeing that we are now hard upon the month of July, time is very precious. The Bill to which my remarks apply certainly forms part of the great measure of Reform to which the Prime Minister alluded when he made an exception in favour of the Lords' Amendments to the Parliamentary Elections (Redistribution) Bill being considered. I do not think it would be at all
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  out of Order, or at all opposed to the present situation we are now in, if he would make another exception in regard to this particular measure—namely, the one which appears as an Order of the Day, under the name of "The Parliamentary Elections (Medical Relief) Bill," its object being to remove the disqualification which now exists in connection with the receipt of medical relief, and which, as I have said, affects tens of thousands of the voters of this country. If the Prime Minister cannot give the House some assurance upon this matter, I think it will be my duty to oppose the adjournment on this occasion, in order to accentuate, at any rate, the importance which is thought to attach to this Bill outside the House. If the House agree to put off the adjournment, it would then be competent to postpone the Orders of the Day, with this exception, and to carry the Bill forward another stage to-night. That is a very moderate request, and in urging it I would use precisely the same arguments as those which were very effectively used by the Prime Minister when he made an exception of the consideration of the Lords' Amendments to the Parliamentary Elections (Redistribution) Bill. In fact, the Bill is in precisely the same category as that Bill—that is to say, that it is necessary to complete the great measure of Reform which is now on the eve of passing into law. If the Leaders of the Opposition, or those who could speak for them with authority, can give the House some assurance that the Parliamentary Elections (Medical Relief) Bill will be included in the list which it is the intention of the Leaders on both sides of the House to press forward, such an assurance will be accepted by me, and by my lion. Friends who entertain the same views, as a satisfactory statement. In the absence of some such assurance, it will be the duty of those who feel deeply the gross injustice—for I can call it nothing else—which is being done to poor people throughout the country, to oppose the Motion now proposed by the right hon. Gentleman for the adjournment of the House.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: We have been, in consequence of a statement made some time ago by the Prime Minister, expecting that some kind of statement might be made to-day with regard

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  to any communications which may have taken place as to any assurances which may have been given, or are proposed to be given, to right hon. Gentlemen opposite before they assume Office. I would venture to ask the Prime Minister if he will be good enough either to give us that statement now, or to tell us when that statement is to be given to us? We should like, in any case, to be assured that nothing has been done that deprives us, on this side, of our independent course of action in regard to any legislative measures that are likely to come before this House, and in regard to the privileges which independent Members now enjoy to bring on Amendments or Resolutions whenever they are able on the days now allotted for such a purpose by the Standing Orders of the House.
  MR. GLADSTONE: With regard to the Question which has just been put to me, very naturally and properly, by my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere), I believe Lord Salisbury is of the same opinion as myself, that not a moment ought to be lost which can possibly be avoided in giving to the House the information to which it is entitled with respect to the recent communications. I have very great hopes that it may be in my power to give that information to-morrow. I cannot, however, speak positively, as it depends upon the concurrence of another; but that is my hope and my desire. I will not now attempt to give any account of the character of this correspondence, or of the principles by which I have been guided in endeavouring to conduct it, as there will so speedily be an opportunity which will enable hon. Gentlemen to form their own opinion on an accurate knowledge of everything material that has taken place. That, I hope, is sufficient for my hon. Friend, so far as regards this particular subject. My hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Jesse Collings) has—as I understand, in a good-humoured way—threatened to oppose the adjournment of the House if it be true that an agreement has been made between the Leaders of the Party coming into Office and the Leaders of the Party going out of Office, with respect to the progress of certain Bills, and if that arrangement does not include a measure in which he is very deeply
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  interested, and which certainly has strong claims—I give no opinion on it at this moment—to be brought under the judgment of the House. But I think I can effectually relieve the mind of my hon. Friend. He is the victim of a delusion. There is no foundation whatever, great or small, for the belief that such an arrangement has been made, or that any communication of any kind has taken place upon it. The position, therefore, which his Bill has occupied, together with the freedom of my hon. Friend and of the House, remains positively unimpaired; and, under these circumstances, I think he will feel that the second reading of a Bill of that kind ought to be moved when there is a responsible Government in Office.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolved, That Standing Order No. 1 be suspended, and that this House, at its rising, do adjourn until To-morrow, at Five of the clock.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I beg to move that this House do now adjourn.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Five, o'clock.