Commons Sitting of 13 August 1885

Preamble
The House met at Three of the clock.
MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILL—Considered as amended—Re-Committed—Committee—Report—Considered as amended—Third Reading—Educational Endowments (Ireland) [176], and passed.
QUESTIONS.

  NAVY—COASTGUARDS (IRELAND).
  MR. DAWSONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether it is a fact that the Coastguards in Ireland, who were removed from their ordinary stations for torpedo practice, had one shilling per day deducted from their pay for their support; and, whether this deduction will be remitted?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Sir HENRY HOLLAND): Chief officers and men of the Coastguard generally are, when serving afloat, subject to a deduction of 1s. from the subsistence of 1s. 4d. a-day which they receive when on shore, as when on board ship they are provisioned from the ship's stores. No deviation from this practice took place as regards the Coastguard in Ireland who were embarked this year. This deduction cannot be remitted.

  REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE ACT, 1884—POLLING PLACES IN CO. ROSCOMMON.
  MR. SEXTON (for Mr. O'KELLY)asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether it is true that voters, living within a mile of Strokestown, county Roscommon, will be compelled to record their votes in the town of Lanes borough, a distance of seven miles, instead of recording them as hitherto in Strokestown; and, whether he will consider the convenience of establishing a polling booth at Tarmonbarry?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir WILLIAM HART DYKE): The Parliamentary boundary of Roscommon throws part of the former polling district of Strokestown into the Southern Division of the county, and this portion is now attached to the polling district of Lanesborough. No better arrangement can be made. I understand Rooskey is a more convenient polling place for the whole district than Tarmonbarry, and there could not well be polling places at both towns.

  RELIEF OF DISTRESS (IRELAND) ACT —NON-PAYMENT OF SEED RATES.
  MR. SEXTON (for Mr. O'KELLY)asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether ratepayers who paid on or before the 1st of July all Poor Rates then due will have a right to vote, whether or not they have paid the last instalment of the Seed Rate then due; and, whether ratepayers who tendered all Poor Rates clue at the proper time will have their right to vote disallowed by the refusal of the Poor Rate collectors to receive the Poor Rate without the Seed Rate instalment?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Sir HENRY HOLLAND): I am advised that non-payment of seed rate has the same effect as non-payment of poor rate. The Act of Parliament requires the seed rate to be added to the poor rate and collected therewith, and the collector is justified in refusing to accept the one without the other.

  ARMY—ARMS OF THE YEOMANRY.
  MR. WINGFIELD DIGBYasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether he will take note of the fact that the Yeomanry Cavalry is still armed

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  with the Snider carbine; and, whether, when the exigencies of the State allows of it, he will take into consideration the advisability of supplying the Martini-Henry carbine to the Yeomanry, which Force has, in the last few years, made great efforts to improve the shooting of its members?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. W. H. SMITH): I hope that arrangements will be sufficiently advanced to allow of the issue of Martini-Henry carbines to the Yeomanry Cavalry before the close of the present financial year.

  MERCHANT SHIPPING—LOAD LINE COMMITTEE—IRREGULAR PUBLICATION OF THE REPORT.
  MR. PULESTONasked the Secretary to the Board of Trade, If he can give the House any information respecting the Report of the Load Line Committee, and state when it will be published?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE BOARD (Baron HENRY DE WORMS): In reply to the hon. Member's Question, I can only say that the Report of the Load Line Committee, which has already been presented to Parliament, will be circulated with the least possible delay. It is now in the hands of the printers. I fear I can give the House no further information on the subject.
  MR. CALLAN: I wish to ask the Secretary to the Board of Trade, whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the Report of the Load Line Committee has been published exclusively in one of the London newspapers this morning; whether that Report has been supplied with his sanction or without his knowledge; and, whether, if it has been supplied without his knowledge, he will institute an investigation as to the culprit who supplied the Report to one newspaper exclusively—a practice which, although habitual with the late Government, is strongly to be deprecated by their Successors?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE BOARD: My attention has been drawn to the fact that this Report has been published in The Times of this morning. I am at a loss to understand how it was published in The Times. I can only say that there are only two copies in existence. One copy was sent, under seal, in a despatch box, immediately it was received, to Sir Thomas Farrer, who was cruising off
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  the Coast of Scotland; the other copy was sent direct to the Queen's Printers. So strictly have the rules been observed to prevent the premature publication of official Papers, that on inquiry made on behalf of the Board of Trade to the Queen's Printers, with the view of obtaining a copy, they sent back an answer saying that they were unable to supply one without orders from the Treasury. He mentioned these circumstances, in order to show the hon. Member that the publication which had taken place was not in any way due to a fault on the part of the Board of Trade.
  MR. CALLAN: Will the hon. Gentleman institute inquiries to find out the delinquent?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE BOARD: I shall be happy to make inquiries at the Board of Trade; but I do not think I can add anything to the information which I have given to the hon. Member.
  MR. PULESTON: Is the Report which has appeared in The Times the Report of the Committee.
  THE SECReTARY TO THE BOARD: I have not seen the original Report of the Committee, and therefore I cannot say whether they are identical.
  MR. PULESTON: I understood the hon. Gentleman to say that he has not seen the Report. Is it the practice of the Department to send a Report to the Queen's Printers before the Department has perused it?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE BOARD: The Report was sent to the Duke of Richmond in proof, and then, on its return, it was sent direct to the Queen's Printers. It did not pass through my hands.

  INDIA (BENGAL)—THE EXCISE LAWS.
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLasked the Secretary of State for India, Whether any Reports have been received at the India Office regarding the inquiry which the Government of Bengal was understood to be making into the change of late years from the in-still to the out-still system of taxing spirituous liquors; and, whether any information has been elicited tending to justify the suspicion entertained by some that the recent extraordinary increase in the Excise Revenue is in some measure due to changes of the character alluded to in having the effect of cheapening and

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  promoting the consumption of intoxicating liquors. The hon. Member added that, as the noble Lord was not in his place, he might, perhaps, be permitted to answer the Question himself. He did not expect that the noble Lord would come down to the House for the purpose of answering this one Question; but he had been furnished with a reply which was of some public interest, and with the permission of the House he would read it. The hon. Gentleman was proceeding to read the reply, when—
  MR. SPEAKER, interrupting, pointed out that the course about to be taken was contrary to the practice of the House.
  Sir GEORGE CAMPBELLthereupon resumed his seat; but upon the noble Lord the Secretary of State for India subsequently taking his seat he rose again, and asked the Question standing in his name on the Paper.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Lord RANDOLPH CHURCHILL), in reply, said, he was sorry not to have been in his place at the first; but the hour at which the House mot to-day was so unusual and inconvenient. A copy of the Report of the Commission to which the hon. Member alluded as to Excise administration in Bengal had lately been received; but they had not yet received the orders made on the Report of that Commission by the Lieutenant Governor of Bengal or the Government of India. The Commission appeared to consider that the change of the out-still system was one amongst several causes of the increased consumption of liquor in Bengal in recent years; and he might add, for the information of the hon. Member, that it was not at all impossible that the administration of the Excise Laws in India might be one of the subjects into which the Committee of Inquiry, which they hoped would be appointed next year, would make some more or less complete investigation.

  POST OFFICE—DELIVERY OF LETTERS ON BANK HOLIDAYS.
  MR. BRODRICKasked the Postmaster General, Whether the delivery and despatch of letters on Bank Holidays in rural Post Offices is the same as that on Sundays; and, if not, whether rural
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  postmasters are justified in adopting the Sunday rules on Bank Holidays?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Sir HENRY HOLLAND): My noble Friend, who is unavoidably absent, has asked me to answer this Question on his behalf. The delivery and despatch of letters in rural districts is not quite the same on Bank Holidays as on Sundays, the rule being, whether there is a Sunday delivery or not, to make one delivery and despatch, but no more, on Bank Holidays, unless the inhabitants make a special application to have none. Inquiry shall be made into any case in which it may appear to my hon. Friend that the rule has been departed from.

  ARMY—THE SOUDAN EXPEDITION— RETURN OF THE GUARDS—DETENTION IN CYPRUS.
  MR. BRODRICKasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether it is now possible for the Government to fix a term for the detention of the Brigade of Guards in Cyprus; and, whether the state of public affairs would justify their immediate return to England?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. W. H. SMITH): I am sorry that I am not in a position to tell my hon. Friend the date at which the Guards will return home; but I can assure him that they will not be detained in Cyprus a day longer than is necessary for the public interest.

  POST OFFICE (IRELAND)—WEST OF IRELAND MAIL SERVICE.
  MR. SEXTONasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, Whether the arrangement for the improved mail service between Dublin and the West of Ireland has been completed; and, if so, on or about what date the new service may be expected to begin?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Sir HENRY HOLLAND): I think I can safely say that a new contract for the conveyance of the mails on the Midland Great Western Railway of Ireland will come into force on the 1st of October next.

  EGYPT (THE SOUDAN)—THE GARRISON OF KASSALA.
  SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOT: I wish to ask the Chancellor of the Ex-

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  chequer, Whether he is able to make any statement with regard to the accuracy of certain reports in the newspapers this morning that the garrison of Kassala is in a fair way of being relieved? I am sure if such a statement can be made it will relieve the country of a very great anxiety which has prevailed with regard to the fate of that garrison.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: If I could have had Notice of the Question, perhaps I might have been able to answer it more satisfactorily. There are, I think, some hopes that the relief of the garrison of Kassala will be effected; but beyond that I do not think I am justified in saying anything.

  ARMY (AUXILIARY FORCES)—ENROLMENT OF THE MILITIA—EXPIRATION OF SERVICE.
  MR. M'COANasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether he could state the time at which the Militia battalions now embodied would be released from their services?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. W. H. SMITH)said, he had replied to a similar Question the previous day. It was not in his power to indicate the date at which the Militia would be disembodied. The Government had every desire to do so as early as possible; but they could not name a date.

  LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)—THE SALVATION ARMY RIOTS AT PORTADOWN.
  MR. MOLLOY (for Mr. O'BRIEN)asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether, in connection with the recent Salvation Army riots at Portadown, thirty Catholics and sixteen of the opposite faction were prosecuted; whether the prosecutions were so managed by the clerk of the Town Commissioners that the Catholics were tried first in batches, so that all the persons charged on the Salvation Army side could be examined against them, while the Salvationists charged with riot were enabled to be examined in each other's defence, with the result that several of the Salvationists identified by the police as rioters escaped punishment; whether the riot of the 12th of July was caused by the Salvationist faction being
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  permitted to traverse the Catholic quarter with bands and party cries, notwithstanding an arrangement come to by Mr. Hamilton, R.M., forbidding the Orange bands to parade in that neighbourhood; whether, in spite of the warning conveyed by the riot of the 12th July, Orange bands accompanied by a crowd of the lowest roughs were again, on 6th August, permitted under escorts of police to march through the Catholic quarter playing Party tunes and cursing the Pope, and otherwise insulting the Catholic inhabitants; and, whether, in view of the repeated complaints of the defenceless condition of the Catholic inhabitants of Portadown, the resident magistrate and police officers will be specially instructed to enforce the Law?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir WILLIAM HART DYKE): In a telegram which I have had from the Inspector General of Constabulary to-day he states that he has not had time to make such full inquiries as would enable him to express an opinion as to the manner in which these prosecutions at Portadown were brought, or as to how far the police were responsible. Without going into particulars, then, I will confine myself to saying that the case is one for full inquiry, and the County Inspector has been directed to investigate it himself. The prosecutions appear to have been conducted, and the summonses issued, by the Clerk of the Town Commissioners.

  REGISTRATION OF VOTERS (IRELAND) ACT—REVISION COURTS.
  MR. MOLLOY (for Mr. PARNELL)asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the arrangements for revision courts for the county of Fermanagh, recently published in The Dublin Gazette, practically leave the entire district of Fermanagh south of Lough Erne, and comprising the baronies of Knockninny, Clanawley, and Magheraboy only one revision court, that of Letterbreen, which lies in the middle of an Orange district, and within five miles of Enniskillen, where another court is appointed to be held; whether, in consequence of this arrangement, many persons from the Nationalist baronies of Knockninny and Clanawley on the one side will have to travel fifteen miles without a Railway to reach their

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  revision court, and the people of the barony of Magheraboy on the other side will be put to similar inconvenience; and, whether, to remedy this state of things, arrangements will be made to establish at least two additional revision courts, one in the petty sessions town of Derrylin, in the barony of Knockninny, and the other in the petty sessions and market town of Derrygonnelly, in the barony of Magheraboy?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir WILLIAM HART DYKE): Yes, Sir; arrangements will be made to have Revision Courts at Derrylin and Derrygonnelly.

  THE IRISH LAND COMMISSION (COURT OF APPEAL)—CASES LISTED AT KILLARNEY.
  MR. MOLLOY (for Mr. O'BRIEN)asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Why twelve appeals, listed for hearing before the Land Commission at Killarney on 10th August, were omitted from the amended list; and, whether the tenants in these cases can be re-imbursed the expenses they have been put to in preparing evidence and employing valuers for the August hearing on the faith of the list originally circulated by the Secretary of the Land Commission?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir WILLIAM HART DYKE): The Land Commissioners inform me that cases were omitted from their amended list, which was sent out nearly a month before the date fined for the hearing of the appeals, in order to reduce it to the number which would probably be heard in the time at their disposal.

  LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)— WHITEBOY OFFENCES IN KERRY.
  MR. MOLLOY (for Mr. O'BRIEN)asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether the attention of the Lord Lieutenant has been drawn to the fact that a young man named Timothy O'Rourke, convicted with three others of a Whiteboy offence in Kerry in 1880, is at present in a dangerous condition of health in Mountjoy Convict Prison; and, whether, considering his state of health, the punishment he has already endured, and the
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  fact that the three men convicted with him have been released, His Excellency will recommend that the clemency of the Crown be extended to O'Rourke, on condition of his leaving the Country?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir WILLIAM HART DYKE): The convict referred to, Timothy O'Rourke, was sentenced in 1882 to 15 years' penal servitude. The other men who were convicted with him, and who have since been released on licence, received shorter sentences, and representations in their favour were made to the Lord Lieutenant. No such representations have been made on behalf of O'Rourke, who was medically examined yesterday, and certified to be in good health.

  EGYPT—THE CHAMBER OF NOTABLES.
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether he has yet received any further information of what is going on in Egypt, especially what is the constitution of the Chamber of Notables which has been sitting there; what opinion they expressed regarding the new loan of £9,000,000 added to the burdens of Egypt; what other matters have been laid before them; and, what are the arrangements (as reported in the newspapers) under which they are said to have appointed a committee to superintend the expenditure of the sum to be devoted to irrigation?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. BOURKE): I have every reason to suppose that the General Assembly is constituted in accordance with the provisions of Article 41 of the Organic Law. It should consist of 84 Members—namely, eight Ministers, 30 Members of the Legislative Council, and 46 additional Members, who are elected. The official Report of the meeting of the General Assembly not having been published when the last mail received left Egypt, we have not a copy of that Report. The President's address to the Khedive on the occasion of the reception of the Members of the Assembly on the 29th ultimo expressed a general approval of the loan, asked for details respecting its conditions, and stated that the Assembly wished to associate itself with the Government with regard to the grant for irrigation works. The As-

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  sembly, according to custom, was not open to the public, but I understand that there was some discussion respecting the mode of applying the sum for irrigation; and subsequently Colonel Moncrieff furnished explanations to certain Notables, which appeared to them satisfactory.

  REGISTRATION OF PARLIAMENTARY ELECTORS (IRELAND)—DIFFICULTIES OF APPEAL.
  MR. SEXTONasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether, in view of appeals by considerable bodies of claimants and other persons interested in Parliamentary Registration, and of the fact that, under existing arrangements, numbers of poor persons will be obliged to travel distances varying from twenty to fifty miles, or forfeit their right to vote, the Lord Lieutenant will cause Revision Courts to be held at Keady (Mid-Armagh, for which Division only two Courts are fixed), Donananagh, and Drumguin, county Tyrone, and Carndonagh and Pettigo, county Donegal; whether the Lord Lieutenant, in dealing with applications for Revision Courts, will have regard particularly to the claims of such districts as those named, in which the bulk of claimants are very poor, the time required by long journeys in excess of what they could spare from labour, and the difficulty increased by the absence of regular means of communication; and, up to what date the Lord Lieutenant will receive applications on this subject?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir WILLIAM HART DYKE): Yes, Sir; Courts will be established at all the places mentioned by the hon. Member, and, in addition, at Bunbeg in Donegal. Having regard to the fact that an Order in Council has to be passed, and that at least five days' notice must be given of the holding of each Court, applications could not well be entertained after Saturday next.

  PAWNBROKERS (IRELAND)— OFFENCES AGAINST THE PAWNBROKERS ACT.
  MR. SEXTON (for Mr. O'KELLY)asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Is it a fact that William Hunter, of Smithfield, Belfast, carries on the business of auctioneer
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  and appraiser at above address, he being a person appointed to the office of appraiser over the pawnbrokers of county Antrim by the Grand Jury, and, in contravention of the Act, carries on the pawnbroking business at North Queen Street and Shankhill Road, also the business of money lender and bill discounter; is it a fact that Joseph Anderson, being appointed as above, manages a pawn office, and carries on the business of auctioneer in Smithfield, Belfast, the owner of said pawn office residing in Gilford, county Down; is it true that those men do not conduct their business as directed by the Act, viz. sending notice to owners of goods before the sale, and that they have not nor do they keep a record of the sales for the satisfaction of the owners, as required by the Act, the goods in no instance being appraised; is it a fact that Samuel Trimble, deputy treasurer for the county Antrim, carries on the business of a pawnbroker on the Falls Road, Belfast, and is it in conformity with the Act that pawnbrokers can carry on their business by deputy; is it a fact that James M'Keoron, of Royal Avenue, Belfast, carries on the business of pawnbroker at above address, taking in pledges before 10 o'clock a.m. and after 4 p.m. in the Winter half year, and 10 a.m. and 7 p.m. in the Summer half year, also illegally disposes of pledges over the counter, he not being a lawfully qualified person for the disposal of pawnbrokers' pledges; and, by what means does the Marshal of the City of Dublin take to ascertain if the returns made to Parliament are correct in connection with the pawnbroking trade?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir WILLIAM HART DYKE): I am informed that the statements contained in the first and second paragraphs of the Question are substantially accurate; but I am not aware that the persons mentioned do not conduct their business as directed by the Act. I am informed that Samuel Trimble does not carry on the business of pawnbroker in Belfast. I believe that James M'Keoron conducts his business during the same hours as the other pawnbrokers in Belfast, and that he disposes of pledges over the counter. I am not aware of the means taken by the City Marshal to verify his Parliamentary Returns.

  NATIONAL SCHOOL TEACHERS' (IRELAND) RESIDENCE ACT—ADVANCES FROM, AND REPAYMENTS TO, THE BOARD OF WORKS.
  MR. LEAMY (for Mr. HEALY)asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Is he aware of the inconvenience and even hardship which the present system for repayment of the Board of Works advances, made under the National School Teachers' Residence Act, entails on managers and teachers who have been induced to adopt the provisions of the Act; and is it the case that the half-yearly repayments are about equal to two-thirds the quarterly salary of these teachers; and, whether the proper authorities can arrange that in future it will be sufficient for the managers to send forward to the Board of Works each term the maximum rent chargeable to the teachers who occupy the residences, leaving the remaining half of the instalment in each case to be collected in one sum by the Board of Works from the National Education Board, who now refund to the managers one-half of each instalment previously paid to the Board of Works?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir WILLIAM HART DYKE): The hon. and learned Member put a similar Question in November last, and I understand arrangements are being made for obviating the inconvenience to which he refers.

  LAW AND POLICE (ENGLAND AND WALES)—SUPPRESSION OF DISORDERLY HOUSES—CASE OF MRS. JEFFRIES.
  MR. CALLANasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether, in view of the mass of fresh evidence and the new and material facts disclosed in connection with the Jeffries case, he would grant an inquiry by an independent tribunal into the dismissal of Inspector Minahan?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Sir R. ASSHETON CROSS), in reply, said, that, while he could make no promise, he could assure the hon. Member that any Memorial with regard to this or any other case would receive his best attention.

  ARMY—TROOPS IN EGYPT— GRATUITIES FOR THE SOUDAN CAMPAIGN.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. W. H. SMITH): I beg, Sir, to ask the permission of the House to make a short statement with reference to the rewards to be given to the troops recently employed in Egypt and the Soudan. Her Majesty's Government has decided to grant to the troops employed in the Nile Expedition and in the active operations at Suakin a special gratuity, similar in character to those allowed after the Tel-el-Kebir Campaign and the Soudan operations of 1884. The gratuity for the Nile Expedition will be confined to the officers and men who advanced beyond Wady Haifa on the Nile, and that for Suakin to those who were on shore there between March 1 and May 14, 1885. In consideration of the peculiarly arduous nature of the duty imposed upon all ranks serving with the Nile Expedition, the amount of gratuity has in this case been fixed at £5 for the men, with a proportionate increase according to rank for the officers and non-commissioned officers employed. The unit for the Suakin gratuity is the same as was given in 1884—namely, £2, and with the same comparative results to the higher ranks. The War Office is in communication with the India Office as to whether the Indian Contingent and Native followers shall receive the usual donation batta under Indian Regulations, or a special gratuity upon the same principle as that given to the British troops. It is estimated that the cost of these gratuities will be covered by the Vote of Credit.
  COLONEL KING-HARMAN: May I ask whether Her Majesty's Government have decided to issue medals to the troops in connection with the Campaign.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE: The arrangements already made for the issue of Egyptian medals to those of the troops who have not already received them have been stated. There is to be one clasp for those engaged in the Nile and Suakin Expedition, and a special clasp for those who were engaged in the severe battles which took place under Sir Herbert Stewart and General Earle.
  MR. PULESTON: Will the officers and men of the Navy engaged in the Campaign come in for the same distribution?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE: Similar gratuities will certainly be given to the officers and men of the Navy employed within the same limits and under similar circumstances.
  MR. BRODRICK: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what the corresponding gratuities to officers will be?
  MR. ARTHUR ARNOLD: Will apportion of these gratuities be paid by the Egyptian Government? Is not the amount now paid by them a fixed sum?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE: No, Sir; no portion of the gratuity will be paid by the Egyptian Government. As to the gratuities to officers, I am afraid that I shall have to trouble the House with too much detail if I state the exact amounts. The gratuities for officers are based upon a system which has been in practice for many years.
  SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOT: Do I understand that there is to be no Soudan medal, but that there is only to be an Egyptian medal similar to that issued after Tel-el-Kebir, and nothing special to recognize the services of the Army in the Soudan?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE: My hon. and gallant Friend seems to have taken rather an unfavourable view of the arrangement. There will be special recognition of the services of the Army in the Soudan by the issue of two clasps, one in regard to service south of Wady Haifa, and another clasp for the troops engaged at Suakin, and a special clasp for those engaged in the battle of the 23rd of March.

  IRISH INDUSTRIES AND IRISH FISHERIES—REPORTS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEES.
  MR. SEXTONasked the Government, What was the cause of the great delay in the Reports of the Select Committees upon Irish Industries and Irish Fisheries? He would like to be informed when they would be circulated. He had also obtained a Return showing the favourable records granted to the Royal Irish Constabulary, and would move
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  that the Return be printed with a view to its being circulated.
  MR. SPEAKER: I would remind the hon. Member that every Report of a Select Committee is printed in the ordinary course.
  MR. SEXTON: It is the printing of the Return, not the Reports, which I have moved for.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir WILLIAM HART DYKE)was understood to give the hon. Member an undertaking that the Return as to the Constabulary records would be printed and circulated.

  RELIEF OF DISTRESS (IRELAND) ACT— ADVANCE TO THE CLARE AND BANAGHER RAILWAY.
  MR. MOLLOY: I wish to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, If he is aware that the sum of £30,000 was borrowed under the barony guarantee of Garrycastle by the Clare and Banagher Railway under the Relief of Distress (Ireland) Act, by which Act advances were to be made at 1 per cent; if, to meet a deficit in the profit returns of that railway, a rate has just been struck on the basis of 4 per cent interest on the said loan in lieu of 1 per cent, as mentioned in the said Act; by whose authority and what powers this loan was made at the increased rate; if he can state what steps can be taken to relieve the ratepayers, who believe that the loan was made under the reduced terms of 1 per cent, from this excessive interest?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Sir HENRY HOLLAND): In reply to the hon. Member, I have to state that the sum of £30,000 was not granted under the Relief of Distress Act referred to in the Question; but the advance was made under the amended Relief of Distress Act, under which advances are made at 4 per cent. It is true that the advances are made under the former Act at 1 per cent.

  ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE DEPRESSION OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY.
  MR. CAUSTON: I wish to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer a Question in reference to the proposed Royal Commission on the Depression of Trade in consequence of his answer the other night as to the scope of the inquiry. I wish to ask him, as this Commission is

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  not so much for the purpose of deciding or settling on a policy as to ascertain and collate facts, why this work could not have been undertaken by the officers of the Board of Trade, and considerable delay and expense saved?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: This work has not been done by the officers of the Board of Trade because we thought it would be better done by a Royal Commission.

ORDER OF THE DAY.
  EDUCATIONAL ENDOWMENTS (IRELAND) BILL [Lords].
  (Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.)
  EDUCATIONAL ENDOWMENTS (IRELAND) BILL [Lords].

    [BILL 176.] CONSIDERATION.
    Order for Consideration, as amended, read.
    Bill, as amended, considered.
    Motion made, and Question, "That the Bill be re-committed in respect of a new Clause,"—(Mr. Attorney General for Ireland,)—put, and agreed to.
    Bill considered in Committee.
    (In the Committee.)
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES) moved the following new Clause:—
    (Salaries and expenses.)
    "The Commissioners of the Treasury shall assign such salaries as they think fit to the Assistant Commissioners, secretary, officers, clerks, and servants appointed under this Act, and, except where otherwise provided, the salaries and other expenses incurred under this Act (including the personal and travelling expenses of the Judicial Commissioners, and the travelling expenses of the Assistant Commissioners, secretary, and other officers incurred on the business of the Commission, which shall he paid on scales to be approved by the Treasury), and also any expenses incurred by the Lord Lieutenant in Council under this Act, shall be paid out of moneys to be provided by Parliament."
    New Clause (Salaries and expenses,)—(Mr. Attorney General for Ireland,)—brought up, and read the first time.
    Motion made, and Question, "That the Clause be now read a second time," put, and agreed to.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be added to the Bill."
    MR. SEXTONsaid, the Committee had no means whatever of knowing what
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    the intentions of the Government were as to the salaries of the Commissioners who were to perform the work under the Bill. Before the Bill passed beyond their reach, he would like the Government to give them some idea as to the grade to which the salaries would belong.
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. HOLMES)said, it would be contrary to precedent to mention the amount of the salaries; but he was in a position to say that the salaries would be sufficiently good to induce men of the highest position in the Education Department to accept the position.
    MR. SEXTONthanked the right hon. and learned Gentleman for his statement, which was quite satisfactory.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Bill reported; as amended, considered; read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.

  HOUSING OF THE WORKING CLASSES (ENGLAND) BILL [Lords.]

    CONSIDERATION OF LORDS' REASONS.
    Lords Reasons considered.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir R. ASSHETON CROSS)said, he should not propose to ask the House to insist upon the Amendment, although he was sorry that the Lords had disagreed with it. Another Bill would have to be introduced next year, and it must necessarily include a clause providing that no house should be let in an unfit state.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth not insist on the Amendment disagreed to by the Lords."—(Sir R. Assheton Cross.)
    SIR HENRY JAMESsaid, he agreed with the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir R. Assheton Cross) that it would not be worth while to imperil the Bill for the sake of this Amendment; but he thought that by striking out the Amendment the Lords had rendered the whole provision nugatory.
    Question put, and agreed to.

  PREVENTION OF CRIMES AMENDMENT BILL [Lords.]

    CONSIDERATION OF LORDS' REASONS.
    Lords Reasons considered.
    THE UNDER, SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. STUART-WORTLEY), in moving "That this House insists on the said Amendment," said, the clause was inserted last evening when the Bill was before the House, on account of the great objection of some Members from Ireland to the inclusion of that country in the Bill. As it was not expected that the clause would be left out, he thought it would not be fair to the Irish Members if that House were to agree with the Lords' Amendment. He therefore moved that Clause 8 be insisted upon.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth insist on the Amendment disagreed to by the Lords."—(Mr Stuart-Wortley.)
    SIR HENRY JAMESsaid, if he had thought that he could insist on the Amendment on the preceding Bill without losing the Bill he certainly should have done so.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Sir R. ASSHETON CROSS)said, this was simply a question of good faith with the Irish Members. In a full House it was arranged that this Bill should not extend to Ireland, and it would be a breach of faith if they did not insist on their Amendment.
    SIR HENRY JAMESsaid, he hoped the Irish Members would be content with this, and would not insist on the Amendment. He would appeal to the Irish Members present to assist the Government in the difficult position in which they were placed.
    MR. SEXTONsaid, there was no use appealing to the Irish Members. It was simply a question of good faith. A pledge was given them in the matter, and they expected to see the pledge redeemed.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Committee appointed, "to draw up Seasons to be assigned to The Lords for insisting on the Amendment made by this House to the said Bill, to which The Lords have disagreed:"—Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND, Mr. STUART-WOETLEY, Sir R. ASSHETON CROSS, Sir HENRY HOLLAND, Mr. SEXTON, and Mr. AKERS DOUGLAS.
    Said Reasons reported, and agreed to:—To be communicated to The Lords.

    NATIONAL SCHOOL TEACHERS (IRELAND) PENSION FUND.
    Copy presented,—of Account of Receipts and Payments for the year ended 31st December 1884, with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
    ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY (FAVOURABLE RECORDS).
    Return presented,—giving a list of all the Favourable Records received by Members of the Royal Irish Constabulary Force in the years 1870 to 1875, both inclusive, &c. [ordered 3rd August; Mr. Sexton]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 351.]
    EAST INDIA (REDUCTION OF EXPENDITURE).
    Return presented,—of Copy of Correspondence between the Government of India and the Secretary of State in 1883 regarding the steps to be taken for a reduction of the Expenditure of India [Address 12th August; Mr. Kynaston Cross]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 352.]
    METROPOLITAN WATER COMPANIES.
    Address for "Return showing the financial result, as affecting the Metropolis, of the abandonment of the provisional agreements of the late Mr. Edmund James Smith with the Metropolitan Water Companies, as embodied in the Metropolitan Waterworks Purchase Bill, 1880, with a comparative Statement showing the Capital (Share Loan and Debentures) for the years 1879 to 1884, inclusive, and the amount expended by the Companies respectively on new Works during the same period."—(Sir George Balfour.)
    DEAF-MUTE CHILDREN (FOREIGN COUNTRIES).
    Address for "Return showing the number of Deaf-Mute Children in France, Germany, Italy, Austro-Hungary, Belgium, Switzerland, Holland, and the United States, and the nature and amount of public aid given towards their education, distinguishing between the sums contributed in each case by the State, Province, and Commune."—(Mr. Ackers.)

    ELEMENTARY EDUCATION.
    Return presented,—showing, during the period from 1870 to 1885, in each year:—

    (1.) The number of Children attending Voluntary Schools;

    (2.) The total amount of Expenditure;

    (3.) The total amount of School Fees;

    (4.) The amount of Voluntary Subscriptions;

    (5.) The amount of Government Grant;

    (6.) The amount received from other sources; and

    (7.) The number of New Schools established

    [Address 13th August; Mr. Molloy]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 354.]

  MOTION.
    ADJOURNMENT.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)

    LAW AND POLICE (ENGLAND AND AVALES)—SUPPRESSION OF DISORDERLY HOUSES—CASE OF MRS. JEFFRIES.
    MR. CALLANsaid, that he had two Motions on the Paper, which he had been prevented from moving. The first was for the production of the Report of Mr. Batchelor, of the Solicitor's Department of the Treasury, who, by direction of the Secretary of State for the Home Department, watched the case of Mrs. Jeffries at the Westminster Police Court on the l6th day of April, 1885; and of the Report or Reports made by any official of the Home Office previous to the institution of the prosecution in the case, with reference to the character of the houses kept by Mrs. Jeffries. He would not go to a division on his first Motion, as it had been stated that the document referred to was a confidential Report to the Secretary of State, and could not, therefore, be produced. He had also a Motion on the Paper for a Copy of the Report made by ex-Inspector Minahan in the divorce case of "Macintosh v. Macintosh." He held in his hand the corroboration of Inspector Minahan's statement by no fewer than four policemen. The hon. Member proceeded to read a Report made by the police at Chelsea on the 9th of April, 1883, When—
    MR. SPEAKER, interposing, said: The hon. Member is anticipating a Motion which stands in his own name on the Paper. The Question is the Adjournment of the House.
    MR. CALLANsaid, that in that case he would discuss the Motion for Adjournment, and he would say with regard to it that it was most inconvenient and unfair. It was made in order to evade discussion on the Minahan case, to which his Motion referred.
    Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members not being present,
    House adjourned at a quarter after Four o'clock.