Commons Sitting of 17 November 1884

MINUTES.
— NEW WRITS ISSUED — For Greenock, v. James Stewart, esquire, Manor of Northstead; for Down, v. Honble. Charles Stewart Vane Tempest, commonly called Viscount Castlereagh, called up to the House of Peers.
WAYS AND MEANS—considered in Committee—Income Tax.
PUBLIC BILL—Second Reading—Tramways and Public Companies (Ireland) Act Amendment* [37].
Withdrawn—Parliamentary Franchise (Extension to Women)* [32].

REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL — REDISTRIBUTION.

  MINISTERIAL STATEMENT.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I wish, Sir, by the permission and indulgence of the House, to make a brief intimation which I think it desirable the Members of the House should have in their possession. A great deal, Sir, has been said with regard to the present political circumstances, or, as it has sometimes been called, "the crisis," about an interchange of views between different Parties, and about the question whether Government ought to introduce a Bill relating to the redistribution of seats before the Franchise Bill can have passed the other House of the Legislature, or even before that House may go into Committee on that measure. Sir, for my own part, with respect to those communications between Parties, I think there is no conclusive objection of a universal character to such communications. Indeed, an interchange of views on certain occasions may, in my opinion—and it is shared by my Colleagues—afford the readiest means of averting serious public evils. A noble Lord (Lord John Manners) has recently stated, in respect to the present political circumstances, that no private or public communications could be held with Her Majesty's Government. I do not wish to hold anyone to an expression which may have been one of inadvertence, and I have nothing to say now in respect of private communications in particular; but, of course, as regards public communications, no one has the power to proscribe or prevent a declaration being made openly in this

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  House. Sir, with respect to the Bill that has recently been before us, and with respect to the settlement of the question of the representation of the people, our object — the object of the Government—is to secure the passing of the Franchise Bill without delay. We could not, consistently with our sense of duty, enter into any understanding, and we could not take any step as to the immediate introduction or prosecution of a Bill relating to the redistribution of seats, or relating to any other particulars connected therewith, unless it were such as to afford us an adequate assurance that we should thereby secure the attainment of our main purpose—namely, the passing of the Franchise Bill without delay, that is to say—that there may be no difficulty as to the sense we attach to the phrase—that is to say, during the present Autumnal Sitting. If that object were gained the Franchise Bill would then come into operation, and take effect for voting purposes on the 1st of January, 1886, and not before. Now, Sir, if we are adequately assured—and I have spoken of adequate measure—if we are adequately assured of the attainment of that object—namely, the passing of the Franchise Bill without delay, in the sense in which I have explained it, then I am not aware of any demand likely to be made in relation to proceedings upon the other measure to which we should not be able to accede. In illustration of this remark—that Gentlemen may understand that it is not used without a meaning—I will specify the three following points, which I particularize because I think they are obvious and of the greatest importance. In the first place, we should be ready either to make the main provisions of our redistribution scheme or the draft of the Bill itself the subject of friendly communication at once and before its introduction, and to make every effort—every reasonable effort—for accommodation in regard to these particulars, or we should be ready, apart from what I have just said, to present a Bill at once to the House conceived in the spirit of that sketch which I made in the House, and which, perhaps, I may best describe by saying that it was one very much noticed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Ripon (Mr. Goschen), and one which, as we thought, was favourably received by the right hon.
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  Gentleman the Member for North Devon (Sir Stafford Northcote) on Friday evening, I think the 7th of November. That is the first of the three points. The second point is that we should be ready to prosecute the measure with all possible speed, even to the point of moving the second reading simultaneously with the passing of the Franchise Bill into Committee in the House of Lords; or, if any matter of procedure there rendered that impracticable, then simultaneously with any subsequent stage. I do not refer to any proceedings simultaneously with the second reading in the House of Lords; because, first of all, the time is too short to introduce that practically into the question; and, secondly, because we have understood—and the world generally appears to understand as we understand—that the second reading of the Bill is not a contested stage on the present occasion. Thirdly, we are quite willing to make the passing of our Bill for the Redistribution of Seats a vital question for ourselves, and also to use our best efforts to bring it to an issue in the House of Commons early in the coming year. That, Sir, is the substance of the communication I have to make; and I have been authorized by my Colleagues, in a matter of such deep interest, to convey it to the House at the present moment.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: Sir, the proceeding of the right hon. Gentleman is an unusual one, and I do not know whether I have any right to make any remark upon it. I will only venture to say this—that I entirely agree with him that questions of this kind ought to be made a subject of public arrangement in the presence of the House of Commons and Parliament. But I am perfectly unable to make any remark upon the suggestions he has made at the present time. They come to me as a surprise, in the form in which they are presented, and I am unable myself to say what is the view which may be taken on the subject. I hardly think that the right hon. Gentleman can expect an answer at the present moment.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I have not the slightest intention of making an appeal either to the right hon. Gentleman or to anyone upon the subject. I consider the observations I made, if I may say so,

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  to be in the nature of a prolonged Notice, but not calling upon anyone for reply; and I am sorry if by my manner, or in any way, I have conveyed the idea that I could have expected anything so obviously impossible.
  MR. JOHN MORLEY: I want to know, Sir, whether I am in Order? [Cries of "Order!"] I merely rise, Sir, for the purpose of putting a Question to the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister, and not for the purpose of making any remarks upon the statement he has made to the House. We, sitting here, did not understand from the right hon. Gentleman what was the nature of the guarantee which he expected to have from hon. Gentlemen opposite or from the House of Lords in return for which he is prepared to act upon the three courses which he has pointed out. If the right hon. Gentleman will enlighten us on that point, it would give great satisfaction to many of us here.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I cannot say that I think my hon. Friend is not quite justified in putting that Question. The phrase I used was "an adequate assurance." After all, I am not now speaking of what is to guide the conduct of the Government; and necessarily, from the nature of the case, they must be the judges, under great responsibility—they must be the judges ultimately of the meaning that they would give, for practical purposes, to any phrase of that kind. Such assurances are sometimes conveyed in a form extremely definite, sometimes they are conveyed in a form less definite. Either the acceptance or the rejection of such an assurance would be an act of high responsibility on the part of the Government. My hon. Friend may be perfectly confident that we shall be very desirous not to arrive lightly at any decision upon that question.
  Afterwards,
  SIR WILFRID LAWSONsaid: I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the statement he has made as to the existence of the Government being at stake on the passing of the Redistribution Bill has reference to the passing of the measure through this House, or through both Houses of Parliament?
  MR. GLADSTONE: When I spoke, Sir, I had in view especially the passing of the Redistribution Bill through this
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  House; but I can conceive that a pledge of that kind applies equally to the other House of Parliament.

QUESTIONS.

  PUBLIC MEETINGS (IRELAND)—THE RIOT AT PORTADOWN.
  MR. T. A. DICKSONasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, What decision the Government have arrived at regarding the continuance of Captain Whelan in the position of a Resident Magistrate; and, if the services of District Inspector Smith are to be continued at Portadown?
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The riot which occurred at Portadown on the 22nd ultimo has been the subject of the careful consideration of the Government. I very much regret that my hon. Friend and others should have suffered from the extreme violence of the mob. I further very much regret that the Local Authorities did not come to the determination of having a larger force of police upon the ground on the occasion. The Resident Magistrate, Captain Whelan, is now, and has been for some time previous to this disturbance, in a state of health which quite incapacitated him from discharging the duties of his office, at all events for the time being. He is seriously to blame for not having acquainted the Government with the fact, and having some arrangement made to have a properly qualified magistrate placed in charge of the police. A medical examination will be made of his case, and if it is found that he is not capacitated for further duty he will be retired on pension. As regards District Inspector Smith, he has been censured for not sending for reinforcements of police upon the second occasion, as His Excellency is not satisfied that so small a force should have been provided for the protection of the persons present. On the other hand, Mr. Smith is to be commended for having taken the control of the police in hand himself while he was temporarily upon a sick bed. Under all the circumstances, the Government does not see any necessity for removing him from Portadown.
  MR. T. A. DICKSON: I beg to give Notice that I shall, upon this day week, ask, Whether Captain Whelan has not sent in his resignation?

  THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND)—BAILIEBOROUGH PETTY SESSIONS.
  MR. SEXTONasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If the attention of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland has been drawn to certain proceedings of Justices at Bailieborough (county Cavan) Petty Sessions on the 16th September and the 21st October last; whether, on the former date, two Justices, Robert Gibson and Thomas Chambers, both Protestants, heard a case in which a Protestant named James Jones charged four Catholics named Caffrey, Finegan, Halfpenny, and Ward with waylaying and beating him; and, although it was proved by a witness for the prosecution that Jones had first challenged Caffrey, struck him, and knocked him down, and that a fight had ensued between Caffrey and Jones, the others merely looking on, the Justices sentenced Caffrey to a month's imprisonment with hard labour, and the three spectators to a fortnight each; whether, on the same occasion, the Justices fined the Catholics brought before them for drunkenness ten shillings each, and the Protestants only half-a-crown, even in a case where it was proved the defendant had kicked the police; whether, on the 21st ultimo, Messrs. Chambers and Gibson, Justices, both Protestants, a young man named Keating, a Catholic, charged five men—one of them, James Hunter, a Protestant—with beating him; and, after the complainant had testified against the five men, Mr. Gibson, J.P. suggested to the accused man, Hunter, that he might have held Keating "only to save him," and this suggestion being adopted by Hunter, the evidence of the complainant was rejected, and, on the evidence of Hunter, one of the other men named Gogarty was committed and sent to prison for a month; and, whether the Lord Chancellor will cause inquiry to be had into these proceedings, and will examine the condition of the magistracy in the county Cavan, and particularly in the petty sessions districts of Bailieborough, Shercock, Kingscourt, Mullagh, and Virginia, in which there is not one Catholic Justice of the Peace?
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I have received from the police authorities a full account of the proceedings at Bailieborough Petty Sessions on the occasion of the hearing of the cases re
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  ferred to. I am unwilling to trespass upon the time of the House by entering into details of the cases; but I can assure the hon. Member that the result shows no ground for imputing sectarian partiality to the Bench, or for any reference to the Lord Chancellor as to the conduct of the magistrates. As to the composition of the Magistracy of the county of Cavan, it is engaging the attention of the Lord Chancellor; and I may mention that of nine magistrates appointed by his Lordship five are Roman Catholic gentlemen.

  THE ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY—SEIZURE OF ARMS.
  MR. SEXTONasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, With regard to a seizure of arms some time since in a blacksmith's forge at Tubbercurry, county Sligo, whether a person passing under the name of Bartley, who was at that time tenant of the forge, and professed to earn his living as a blacksmith, was in reality a member of the Constabulary Force named Woods; whether Constable Woods had been sent to Tubberycurry by County Inspector James Ellis French, and provided with money, for the purpose of renting the forge, and of assuming a character in which he could provoke offences against the Law by inducing the young men of the district to engage in illegal enterprises; whether Woods is still serving in the Constabulary Force in a certain part of the north of Ireland; and, whether the Executive sanction such a use of the police as that described?
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I must not be understood as admitting any of the allegations involved in this Question regarding an individual case when, in the interests of justice and the Public Service, I decline to answer the hon. Member's inquiry. I must, however, distinctly assert that the Irish Executive do not sanction any action on the part of the police intended to induce persons to engage in illegal enterprizes.

  ENDOWED SCHOOLS — MILTON ABBAS GRAMMAR SCHOOL—THE NEW SCHEME.
  MR. MONTAGUE GUESTasked the Vice President of the Committee of Council, Whether, having regard to the

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  fact that the scheme proposed by the Charity Commissioners in relation to the Milton Abbas Grammar School at Blandford has been strongly objected to by the inhabitants as well as by the corporation of that town, and moreover that petitions have already been presented to both Houses of Parliament, and that more are in course of preparation against the proposed scheme, it is the intention of the Charity Commissioners to direct an Assistant Commissioner to hold an inquiry respecting the subject matter of the scheme; and, whether they have ignored the objections made by the locality interested in the school, and have submitted the scheme as settled by them to the Education Department?
  MR. MUNDELLA, in reply, said, that the scheme relating to Milton Abbas Grammar School at Blandford had not yet reached the Education Department, and the Commissioners informed him that they were now considering the representations made to them by the local authorities. They added that no application had been made to them for any further inquiry.

  IRELAND — THE NEW MUSEUM OF SCIENCE AND ART, DUBLIN.
  MR. FINDLATERasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, Whether, having regard to the fact that the plans for the Science and Art Museum have, with certain modifications, been approved of by the Science and Art Department, as well as by the Board of Works in Ireland, there is any reason why the Treasury should delay their sanction to the working drawings being prepared, and the contracts entered into?
  MR. COURTNEYsaid, that steps would be taken to commence the foundations that day week.

  REGISTRY OF DEEDS OFFICE (IRELAND).
  MR. SEXTONasked, If the attention of the Government had been called to the state of the public searching room of the Registry of Deeds Office?
  MR. FINDLATERsaid, that he had upon this Question to call attention to the state of the public searching and reading room; and he would ask the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, If
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  he is aware that serious complaints have been made by those who are compelled to use the present Public Reading Room at the Registry of Deeds Office, Ireland, of the want of space, and of the offensive and unhealthy character of the atmosphere when the room is crowded; and, can he state why, up to the present, nothing has been done to carry out the recommendations of the Royal Commissioners in respect of the improvement and enlargement of this apartment made in their Report on the Office issued so long ago as the year 1880; and, will steps be taken immediately to remedy the existing state of things?
  MR. COURTNEYwas understood to state that complaints had been received upon this subject, and inquiry was made some time ago as to whether the public search-room could be enlarged; but it appeared this could not be done until the Probate Registry had been removed. This, it was hoped, would soon be done, and plans for the enlargement of the Deeds Office would then be at once considered.

  LAND LAW (IRELAND) ACT, 1881 — LOANS TO TENANTS — STATUTORY ADVERTISEMENTS.
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, If he can state why the statutory advertisement published by the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland relating to loans to tenants was inserted in The Leinster Express of Saturday the 8th instant, and not in The Leinster Leader, the Nationalist organ of much more general circulation?
  MR. COURTNEYwas understood to state that he had been informed that the paper referred to was the only one published in Queen's County, and had as large a circulation as any there. Many similar advertisements for Kildare were published in The Leinster Leader.

  COUNTY LUNATIC ASYLUMS—MIDDLESEX COUNTY ASYLUMS—INSUFFICIENCY OF ACCOMMODATION.
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORasked the President of the Local Government Board, Whether his attention has been directed to the case of a poor man, whose wife, having been placed four times previously in a public asylum, was on the fifth occasion, in August last,

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  sent by the Paddington Guardians to a private asylum, at an additional cost to him of nine shillings a week, because in the three county asylums of Hanwell, Colney Hatch, and Banstead there was no accommodation; and, whether it is in the power of the Government to take any steps to cause sufficient accommodation to be provided for the afflicted poor?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT, in reply, said, that his attention had been called to the case referred to in the Question. The inadequate accommodation in the county asylums had been several times brought to the attention of the Justices by the Lunacy Commissioners, and he would do everything in his power to secure proper accommodation being provided. In the particular case in question, the husband of the lunatic would pay no more than if his wife had been placed in a public asylum.

  PREVENTION OF CRIME (IRELAND) ACT, 1882 (WARRANTS)—EXTRA POLICE, TIMAHOE, QUEEN'S COUNTY.
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether it is the intention of the Government to impose any tax in respect of additional police upon the district of Timahoe, in the Queen's County, in the absence of any actual offences, and the mere misgivings of the resident magistrate or the local inspector of police?
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: As I informed the hon. Member a few days ago, intimidation and "Boycotting" have been largely practised in this district, which cannot, therefore, be said to be free from actual offences. The "Boycotted" persons require extra protection to prevent outrage and further intimidation. It was on these grounds, and not upon mere misgivings, that the district was proclaimed as requiring additional police.
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the intimidation and "Boycotting" could be specified, or whether the Report which the right hon. Gentleman quoted from was merely couched in general terms?
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I think it is merely in general terms.

  CIVIL SERVICE (IRELAND)—PENSIONS, &c., TO MESSRS. CORNWALL AND FRENCH.
  MR. GRAYasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether he is in a position to give an assurance that any moneys which the Government may give, either by way of gratuity, allowance, or pension, to Messrs. Cornwall and French, will be placed upon the Estimates and submitted to the Vote of this House, and not paid out of any secret fund?
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The hon. Member must, I think, be aware that in no case could the Irish Government be in any way concerned in, or responsible for, the grant of a pension to an official of the Post Office Department. So far as I am concerned, I am quite willing to state that no money will be paid out of any secret fund to Mr. French.

  INDIA—BURMAH—THE MANDALAY MASSACRES.
  MR. RITCHIEasked the Under Secretary of State for India, Whether the Government are aware that, during the massacres ordered by the Burmese Government at Mandalay last month, two British subjects, natives of Chittagong and seamen belonging to a steamer owned by an English Company, were amongst the victims, and that these men were at the time being detained in one of the gaols for some petty act of smuggling; whether, if it is proved that British subjects were amongst those murdered, the Government will take any steps to bring King Theebaw and his Government to account; and, whether the Government are aware that a memorial, embodying resolutions passed at a meeting of over 8,000 citizens of Rangoon, has been forwarded to Lord Ripon, Governor General of India, and that this memorial demands from the Government some immediate interference in Upper Burmah that will for the future insure protection to British life and property?
  MR. J. K. CROSS: The Government of India telegraphs that they have received no precise information as to the report that two British subjects were among the victims of the Mandalay massacres; but they are making in

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  quires on this point. I learn from the newspapers that a Memorial of the nature alluded to by the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets has been addressed to the Government of India; but the Secretary of State has not, as yet, received any communication from that Government on the subject.

  LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)—MR. P. N. FITZGERALD AND THE TUBBERCURRY PRISONERS—COMPENSATION FOR IMPRISONMENT.
  MR. SEXTONasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether, in the cases of Mr. P. N. Fitzgerald and the Tubbercurry prisoners, the Government propose to offer any compensation, considering that several of the men accused have been held for seven months in prison, and all of them for the greater part of that time, and that the families of all of them were, and are, dependent on their exertions for the maintenance of their position in life; and, whether, in the case of Mr. P. N. Fitzgerald, the Government will particularly consider that the charge of conspiring to murder was left hanging over him until his trial for treason-felony had closed in an acquittal, and was then abandoned without any attempt being made to prove it, and that the principal witnesses produced by the Crown to establish the charge for treason-felony were declared, by a special jury of the city and county of Dublin, to be "unworthy of credence?"
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. WALKER): It is wholly contrary to precedent to compensate persons who have been tried for serious crimes by a jury and acquitted, or as regards whom a nolle prosequi has been entered after a jury had declined to convict others on similar evidence; and there is no reason in the present case for departing from that rule. The bill for conspiracy to murder against Fitzgerald was found by the Grand Jury, as well as that for treason-felony. The Crown could only put him on his trial for one charge. His acquittal on one involved in this case, in the opinion of the Attorney General, the abandonment of the other charge.
  MR. SEXTON: I shall endeavour to show cause in the case hereafter.

  CRIMINAL LAW (IRELAND)—THE CORNWALL TRIAL.
  MR. SEXTONasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether lately a special jury of the city and county of Dublin, empanelled under the provisions of the Crime Prevention Act, returned a verdict of "not guilty" in the case of The Queen v. Cornwall, and appended a rider to the effect that they had been obliged to return the verdict in question because the Crown had not brought forward sufficient evidence to justify a conviction; whether the Crown had available evidence against Cornwall which they did not bring forward; if so, why they withheld it from the jury; whether, further, a special jury of the city and county of Dublin, empanelled under the provisions of the Crime Prevention Act, returned a verdict of "not guilty" in the case of The Queen v. Fitzgerald, and appended a declaration that the principal witnesses brought forward by the Crown were unworthy of credence, and that the corroborating evidence was of a complicated and doubtful character; whether the principal witnesses so denounced by the jury were the informers Moran and Delany; whether Moran will be longer retained in the pay of the Government, and whether the Government have resolved not to make use of him or Delany in any future prosecution; and, whether the cases of any persons convicted on their evidence will now be reconsidered?
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. WALKER): The rider that the verdict referred to in the case of "The Queen v. Cornwall" was not in the terms or to the effect mentioned in the first part of the Question. It conveyed no reflection on the prosecution. All available evidence was produced, and no evidence whatever was withheld from the jury. In the case of "The Queen v. Fitzgerald" a verdict of "Not guilty" was returned, the jury in the case considering the corroboration of Moran and Delany insufficient, and declining without more corroboration to act on their testimony. Moran is not in the pay of the Government. No undertaking can be given as to cases that have not arisen. The recent trial furnishes no reason for reconsidering former cases if they existed; but the only case in which Moran was examined was at the trial of Daly

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  at the Warwick Asssizes, and any Question as regards that trial should be addressed to the Home Secretary.
  MR. SEXTON: I would ask the hon. and learned Gentleman whether he has not passed over the portion of the rider which stated that the principal witnesses were "unworthy of credence?"
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IERLAND (Mr. WALKER): I dealt with that in stating that the jury declined to act on their testimony.
  MR. O'BRIEN: Can the hon. and learned Solicitor General for Ireland say whether the Crown had any arrangement with Delany as to his liberty, or as to any reward, and, if so, whether that arrangement will now be carried out, in face of the verdict of the jury?
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. WALKER): No, Sir; they had no such arrangement.

  LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)—MR. D. BODKIN—FEES FOR DEFENDING A PRISONER UNDER THE PREVENTION OF CRIME ACT.
  MR. O'BRIENasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether his attention has been directed to a correspondence between Mr. D. Bodkin and the Under Secretary, with reference to the fees payable to Mr. Bodkin as junior counsel assigned by the Crown, under the Crimes Act, for the defence of a man named Killeen, charged with the murder of Henry East; whether the fees found due to Mr. Bodkin, in reference to proceedings in the case extending from 29th July 1882, to 14th February 1883, amounting to £32 11 s., as per solicitor's schedule of costs, were reduced to £13 13 s.; by whom, and on what principle, was the reduction made; is it the fact, as stated in Mr. Bodkin's letter, that counsel assigned for the defence of the Maamtrasna prisoners and others, who were convicted, were paid on a far more liberal scale by the Crown than that laid down in the only case in which there was an acquittal; is it a fact that additional labour was thrown on counsel for Killeen's defence, by the procedure adopted by the Crown solicitor in obtaining a list of the prisoner's witnesses, on pretence of paying their expenses, and then secretly examining them, in the absence of any representative of the prisoner, and using their statements
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  against the prisoner on his trial; and, is it a fact that any difference is made in the scale of fees paid to counsel in cases of conviction and of acquittal?
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. WALKER): The bill of costs furnished by the solicitor for the prisoner in respect of the defence was referred, according to the usual practice, to the Crown and Treasury Solicitor for taxation. The bill, as taxed, amounted to £85 5s., and that sum was paid. No exceptional principle was applied in this case. No difference whatever is made whether there be a conviction or acquittal. The fees measured in the present case were according to the usual scale applied in estimating fees. If the fees allowed in the Maamtrasna case were larger, that fact was not before the Crown and Treasury Solicitor, who judge of each case on its own merits, without regard to the result of the trial. There is no foundation whatever for the suggestion that the Crown Solicitor adopted the procedure suggested in the 5th paragraph of the Question.
  MR. O'BRIEN: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman have any objection to give a Return of the correspondence between Mr. Bodkin and the Under Secretary for Ireland upon this subject?
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. WALKER): Perhaps the hon. Member will give Notice of that.

  PUBLIC MEETINGS—THE RIOT AT ASTON HALL, BIRMINGHAM.
  MR. ONSLOWasked Mr. Attorney General, If he will cause inquiries to be made as to the allegation that certain persons, stated to have signed statutory declarations regarding the recent riot at Aston, cannot now be found; and, whether he would advise the Public Prosecutor, in the interests of justice, to use his best endeavours to discover the whereabouts of these individuals, inasmuch as the documents in question are now the property of the House, having been communicated on the responsibility of a Minister of the Crown?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES), in reply, said, he had already given the opinion that it was very objectionable for the Government to interfere in any proceedings arising out of electioneering contests. If that

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  rule were a good one to apply, he knew of no place where an exception to it was less required than at Birmingham. He might mention that the two persons who could not be discovered had now been found, and he understood that process had not only been issued but executed.

  CIVIL SERVICE (PARLIAMENTARY CANDIDATURE)—SIR WILLIAM BRAMPTON GURDON.
  MR. HICKSasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether he can now state when the notice was sent to Sir W. B. Gurdon, informing him that his candidature for West Norfolk was not compatible with his position as a senior clerk in the Treasury?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS)said, that he saw Sir Brampton Gurdon on the 12th November, and he then communicated to Sir Brampton what he subsequently communicated to the House—namely, that his candidature was incompatible with his official position.
  MR. HICKSinquired when the right hon. Gentleman received the first information of his candidature?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS)said, he could not mention the exact date; but he first knew of it some time before he spoke to Sir Brampton Gurdon.
  MR. HICKSgave Notice that he would ask the Secretary to the Treasury when he first become acquainted with the candidature.

  PUBLIC HEALTH—IMPORTATION OF BUTTERINE AND OLEOMARGARINE—REPORTS FROM FOREIGN COUNTRIES.
  MR. MOOREasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, What steps have been taken to obtain information with respect to the action of Foreign Governments with regard to oleomargarine and other butter substitutes?
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: Reports have been called for on the subject from Her Majesty's Representatives in the principal countries of Europe. They are in course of preparation, and I hope shortly to be able to lay them before the House.

  IRELAND—THE CORK BUTTER MARKET—THE BYE-LAWS.
  MR. MOOREasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether the Trustees of the Cork Butter Market have yet framed the bye-laws for the government of that Market under the Act of last Session; and, whether the Government will see that ample notice is given to all parties concerned before these bye-laws receive the sanction of the Privy Council?
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The hon. Member is aware that the Act of Parliament prescribes a limit of six months time within which the Trustees of the Butter Market shall draw up a code of bye-laws. Of that period two months have yet to run. The Trustees have not yet submitted their bye-laws to the Privy Council; but I understand that they have nearly completed a draft code for the purpose. Care will be taken that all proper publicity is given to the matter before the bye-laws are finally sanctioned. The provisions of the Statute on this point seem very explicit, and they shall be duly complied with.

  PUBLIC HEALTH — PRECAUTIONS AGAINST CHOLERA.
  MR. MOOREasked the President of the Local Government Board, Whether any and what precautions have been taken in view of the approach of cholera; whether any instructions have been issued to the local authorities regarding the use and distribution of disinfectants; and, whether it is intended to appoint any medical Commission of Inquiry to assist the Local Government Board if necessary?
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: Cholera Regulations which define the duties and powers of officers of Customs and Port sanitary authorities in view of cholera being brought by shipping were issued in July, 1883, and are still in force. The Regulations were accompanied by an Explanatory Circular, and by a Memorandum as to "precautions against the infection of cholera" prepared by the Board's medical officer. This Memorandum was reissued in July last. Regulations have also from time to time been issued relating to rags from infected countries. Orders respecting rags from France and Italy are at present in force.

  1837
  The Board have caused inspection to be made by Dr. Blaxall and Dr. De Chaumont of the sanitary condition of the principal English ports, particularly with reference to their preparedness against cholera. This inspection is to be repeated. Each rumoured case of cholera on board ships coming to English ports has been the subject of inquiry by the Board; and the local sanitary authorities have in each instance, been found to be taking proper precautions against the importation of the disease. The Royal College of Physicians of London, after consulting the Board, have issued a Paper of Advice to the public, dated July, 1884. As regards London, Sir F. Bolton has made special reports to the Board of the state of the water supplies. The Metropolitan Asylums Board have been taking numerous preliminary steps with reference to the provision of hospital accommodation in the event of an outbreak of cholera; and the Metropolitan medical officers of health have been advising the Vestries and District Boards, and taking much counsel with each other as to the most efficient preparations and the best course of action if cases of cholera should appear. The Board are prepared, if occasion should require, to put into force in England the provisions of the Diseases Prevention Act, 1855, and the Diseases Prevention Clauses of the Public Health Act, 1875. If Regulations were issued under those Acts, they would contemplate a serious epidemic and be of a stringent character. It was not deemed requisite to exercise powers under similar enactments when cholera was seriously prevalent in Paris in 1873. As regards the use and distribution of disinfectants, the sanitary authorities have their official medical advisers, and at present there would appear to the Board to be no necessity for their intervention; but they will, of course, be desirous of rendering the local authorities every assistance in their power. The medical officer of the Board, Dr. Buchanan, has had considerable experience of cholera in England, especially during the outbreaks of 1854 and 1865–6; and the Board have the greatest confidence in him and his staff. I may, however, mention that a Committee was formed in 1883 for the purpose of conferring as to cholera. This Committee included, with our own medical officer, Sir William Jenner,
  1838
  Sir Joseph Fayrer, who has had long experience of cholera in India, Sir Lyon Playfair, and representatives of the Foreign Office, the Home Office, the Customs, the Metropolitan Asylums Board, and the Local Government Board. It has not been considered necessary to call the Committee together during the present year; but not long since a conference took place between representatives of the Metropolitan Asylums managers and members of our medical staff and myself to consider the question of arrangements in the event of an outbreak in London. I may add that there is no truth in the rumour prevalent in Paris that there has been any cholera in London, or, indeed, in England.
  MR. MOORE: May I ask in what form the Paper of Advice issued by the Royal College of Physicians is published, and where it can be obtained?
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: I have seen a copy of it, and will cause a copy to be sent to the hon. Member; but I cannot speak as to the manner in which it has been circulated. I imagine it has been sent to the various sanitary officers.

  IRELAND—CORPORATION OF LIMERICK—EXTRA POLICE TAX.
  MR. DAWSONasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether, considering the many local and other questions of detail involved in the Limerick extra Police Tax, the Lord Lieutenant will comply with the request of the Corporation to appoint a Commission to inquire into the merits of the case in Limerick?
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I fear I can only refer the hon. Member to my reply to his former Question on this subject, when I stated that it would be impossible for the Government to comply with such an application.

  ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY—SHOOTING WITHOUT INLAND REVENUE LICENCE.
  MR. DEASYasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether Constables M'Carry and Brady, of the Whitegate Police Station, county Cork, frequently shoot rabbits, sea-fowls, &c. without an Inland Revenue Licence; whether the fowling-piece used by them is one which has been given to a resident in the neighbourhood for his protection; whether the constables have for many

  1839
  days together kept possession of the gun; will they be prosecuted for a violation of the Inland Revenue Act; and, what notice will be taken by the Constabulary Authorities of their conduct?
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I am informed that on one or two occasions the constables named have accidentally met a gamekeeper or another person—a retired Coastguard officer—who allowed them to fire a few shots at rabbits or sea-fowl. There is no other foundation for the statements in the Question. The men bear a high character, and they transgressed thoughtlessly in this matter. The Inspector General does not intend to take further notice of the proceeding, except to caution them to be very careful not to give any opportunity for accusing them of breaking the law.
  MR. DEASYsaid, the right hon. Gentleman had not answered the last paragraph of his Question.
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid, that contraventions of the Inland Revenue Act were matters for the action of the Inland Revenue authorities.

  NAVY—TRAINING SHIPS.
  MR. MACFARLANEasked the Civil Lord to the Admiralty, If he would take into consideration the urgent desire of the people of the Island of Lewis that a training ship should be stationed in the Harbour of Stornoway, where it is said there are 1,000 boys anxious to avail themselves of the opportunity which would be thus afforded to them of learning a valuable profession?
  SIR THOMAS BRASSEY, in reply, said, the Admiralty could not undertake to increase the number of their training ships. Any person who desired it would receive full information as to joining the Service from the officer of the Coastguard at Stornoway, and if the candidates were properly qualified they would be gladly received.
  MR. MACFARLANEasked whether he was to understand from the hon. Gentleman that the Government were not prepared to carry out one of the strongest recommendations on this subject of the Royal Commission? Had they finally decided not to give effect to that recommendation?
  SIR THOMAS BRASSEYsaid, he had already stated that the Admiralty could not undertake to increase the number of their training ships. Train
  1840
  ing ships for the Mercantile Marine were not under the administration of the Admiralty.

  CIVIL SERVICE — INLAND REVENUE APPOINTMENTS—ALLOWANCES FOR AGE.
  MR. SEXTONasked the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether the rule of the Civil Service Commissioners regarding allowances, in point of age, to candidates for appointments in the Inland Revenue is intended to exclude Irish National teachers while favouring clerks in Government offices and members of the Constabulary Force who desire to compete for such appointments; and, if so, will any steps be taken to place the National teachers on the same footing in this matter with other Civil servants of the Crown, by enabling them to qualify for competition for places in the Inland Revenue service by deducting from their actual age any time not exceeding five years which they have spent as National teachers, instead of, as now, debarring them from entering to compete after they have reached their twenty-second year?
  MR. COURTNEYsaid, that National teachers were not allowed the extension of age referred to, because, in the first place, they were not Civil servants; in the next place, their special training did not qualify them for clerical work; and, thirdly, it was not for the public advantage that they should be encouraged to abandon their profession.

  ARMY—QUARTERMASTERS—PROMOTION.
  MR. BIGGARasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether the seven young serjeants who were promoted by favour to lieutenancies on the 2nd July 1884 can all reach the Pay Department over the heads of 449 meritorious quartermasters; whether quartermasters were eligible for the post of regimental paymaster until the Pay Department was formed; whether 449 out of the 455 quartermasters shown in the Official Army List, dated 17th January 1884, are debarred from entering the Pay Department, and from all substantive promotion; and, whether quartermasters are combatant officers, as stated in the Royal Warrant of 1st April 1884, or non-combatant, as implied by recent statements by the Government?
  SIR ARTHUR HAYTER, in reply, said, that omitting the words, "by favour," the Question might be answered in the affirmative. This was the fifth Question which the hon. Member for Cavan had addressed to Ministers on the subject, and he had uniformly had the same answer. There was another Question on the Paper relating to the same matter for Thursday next. If it were put, he should appeal to the Speaker as to whether the time of the House was to be wasted by the repetition of Questions which had practically been answered.

  NAVY—ARMOUR-CLAD CRUISERS.
  MR. GOURLEYasked the Secretary to the Admiralty, To be good enough to inform the House how many ocean armour-clad cruisers are at present in commission, stating number, calibre, and description of guns, also coal endurance of each ship; how many vessels of this type are being built; when they are likely to be finished; how intended to be armed; coal endurence; and oceangoing speed; if he can state how many coast and ocean-going torpedo craft are in commission, and how many are in course of construction; and, whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to appoint a Select Committee to inquire into the condition of the Navy?
  SIR THOMAS BRASSEY: The information asked for cannot be conveniently given in reply to a Question. It has already been partially supplied in the Return presented in the last Session of Parliament by my hon. Friend the present Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant, and I cannot anticipate the statement which is to be made on Monday next on behalf of the Government with regard to the Navy.

  LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)—THE CROWN SOLICITOR FOR DUBLIN.
  MR. O'BRIENasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, What are the arrangements with the new Crown Solicitor for Dublin, by reason of which Mr. George Bolton's special services in connection with the administration of the Crimes Act are to be dispensed with; is it part of the functions of the Crown Solicitor for Dublin to undertake investigations in distant parts of the country, as in the cases of
  1842
  the Maamtrasna, Clonbar, and Ballyforan murders; if it be, why did not Mr. Anderson perform that duty; if it be not, why is Mr. Coll asked to undertake it; for what reasons was Mr. Bolton selected from the county Tipperary for these special duties; did he receive an autograph letter of thanks from Earl Spencer for his services; and, why have his services in this special department been discontinued?
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. WALKER): Mr. Anderson was appointed in 1859. His duties were confined to criminal business arising in the County and City of Dublin. He resigned his office last month, and Mr. Coll was appointed in his place. A Commission appointed last year to report on the existing system of Crown Solicitors reported that it was desirable that the Crown Solicitor for Dublin should be required to devote his entire time to the duties of his office, and be bound on the direction of the Attorney General to take up the conduct of any special case or special legal business. Mr. Coll was appointed on those terms, and the conduct of any special case will henceforth devolve upon him. Mr. Bolton was selected for the special cases referred to on account of the ability and efficiency with which he had always discharged his duties in the County Tipperary. After the close of the Maamtrasna case Lord Spencer sent to several of the officials engaged, including Mr. Bolton, a letter expressing his sense of the services they had rendered in the unravelling of a great crime and bringing its perpetrators to justice.

  ARMY—DEFICIENCY OF MILITIA OFFICERS.
  MR. TOTTENHAMasked the Secretary of State for War, If his attention has been called to the Confidental Reports of Officers commanding Militia Battalions and Brigades, with reference to the large and increasing deficiency of Militia Officers, called for by the Adjutant General in August last; whether this deficiency now amounts to upwards of 700; and, what steps it is proposed to take to remedy this state of things?
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, the confidential Reports referred to were now under consideration. The deficiency amongst Militia officers at the present time amounted to 857, including

  1843
  70 vacancies which had been lately caused by appointments to the Line. He thought it would be better not to give a digest of the Reports until some decision had been come to as to the steps to be taken in the matter.

  CIVIL SERVICE (IRELAND)—MR. CLIFFORD LLOYD.
  MR. KENNYasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether Mr. Clifford Lloyd is at present in the service of the Irish Government; and, if so, in what capacity; and, whether he is receiving pay or pension of any sort from the Irish Government; and, if he is not in their service at present, at what time was his pay stopped?
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Mr. Lloyd is at present on the list of Resident Magistrates of the first class, and receives the pay and allowances of that rank. He is at present on leave of absence with pay. This is practically the only case, I am told, in which leave has been granted other than for private purposes since 1880.
  MR. O'KELLY: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether, during his presence in Egypt, he was in receipt of pay?
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Not from the British Government.
  MR. O'KELLY: During his present absence from Egypt is he in receipt of Egyptian pay?
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: No, Sir.
  MR. O'KELLY: I beg to give Notice that to-morrow I shall ask the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs when the Egyptian pay of Mr. Clifford Lloyd ceased.
  MR. KENNY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how long the Government proposed to continue Mr. Clifford Lloyd in the enjoyment of pay without any duties?
  [No reply.]

  POOR LAW (IRELAND)—RATING—BALTINGLASS UNION, CO. WICKLOW.
  MR. W. J. CORBETasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If, as President of the Local Government Board in Ireland, the subject of an investigation granted by his predecessor in office into charges brought
  1844
  on behalf of the ratepayers of Baltinglass Union, county Wicklow, against Mr. Dagg, clerk of the Union, and George Driver, rate collector, has been brought under his notice; whether it is the fact that the following persons have been excluded from the Register by their action: Edward Byrne, Denis Halpin, Garret Byrne, Edward Cusack, Peter Reilly, James Brophy, and Patrick Byrne; whether he has observed, with reference to Edward Byrne's case, the following statement in the Report of the Poor Law Inspector, who presided at the inquiry—
  "The clerk of the Union admits.… complaint is well founded. He erroneously placed the word 'objected' opposite the voter's name, although the rates were duly paid on the 29th, June, 1883;"
  whether he has noted that Denis Halpin's complaint is that he objected for insufficient rating, but the clerk alleges he objected to insufficient rating, the amount being £13 5s. £11 15 s. separate, and £1 10 s. his share of mountain pasture; whether he has observed, in the case of Garret Byrne, that he was duly rated and voted on a former occasion, but that the name was altered on the rate-book by erasing his name, and writing "reps Martin Byrne" over it; whether the inspector reports—
  "The rate-book contains an entry 'Reps Martin Byrne,' and that entry appeared to me to have been written over an erasure of more than a blot;"
  whether he has noted, with regard to Conservative voters, that the name of William Vavasour was improperly retained on the rate-book after he had ceased to be a ratepayer, and had been struck off by the Valuation Office; whether he has noted that Rate Collector George Driver had his own name down twice in 1882 and three times in 1883; whether many previous complaints have been made from various quarters alleging partizan action on the part of Poor Law officials, in which "mistakes" and "errors of judgment" were pleaded in excuse; and, whether he approves the decision of his subordinates who do not think that there are grounds for deeming the Clerk of the Union and Mr. Driver to be unworthy of further confidence by reason of wilful dereliction of duty on their part?
  MR. M'COAN: Before the right hon. Gentleman answers I would like to ask

  1845
  whether substantially identical complaints were not addressed to the late Chief Secretary for Ireland last Session; whether he in reply did not state that the charges against Mr. Dagg were fully investigated by an Inspector of the Local Government Board, and disproved; and whether the present repetition of these complaints is not a vexatious attempt to reopen a question already settled?
  MR. O'BRIEN: Might I ask the right hon. Gentleman at the same time whether the junior Member for Wicklow has recently visited his constituents?
  MR. CAMPBELL BANNERMAN: In reply to my hon. Friend I can only say that the Question which stands on the Paper does appear to relate to a matter which has already been disposed of by competent authority. An inquiry has recently been held, as promised, by an Inspector of the Local Government Board into certain complaints made against officers of Baltinglass Union in connection with the election of Guardians, and in regard to the discharge of duties under the Parliamentary Voters' Act. The hon. Member will hardly ex-me within the limits of an answer to a Question to enter into details as to the several cases he refers to. He is, I believe, in communication with the Local Government Board on the subject. The Board has communicated to the Guardians the result of the Inspector's inquiry, and stated that, having carefully considered the facts elicited at the inquiry, they do not think that there are grounds for deeming the officers complained of to be unworthy of confidence, by reason of wilful dereliction of duty—although, no doubt, some mistakes had been made. I see no sufficient reason to dissent from that view. With regard to the complaints in respect of the proceedings under the Parliamentary Voters' Act, the hon. Member is no doubt aware that it is open to any person who may consider himself aggrieved to institute proceedings.
  MR. W. J. CORBET: With regard to the Question put by my hon. Colleague, I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is not aware that the investigation to which my Question refers was held on the 17th September last, long after the one held last year?
  [No reply.]

  EGYPT—EXPEDITION UP THE NILE—NUMBER AND COST OF BOATS.
  MR. MARRIOTTasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether he can give the number of the boats already sent from this Country for the Nile Expedition, the cost of each boat, and the several amounts paid for transporting such boats from the places where they were made to the port of embarkation from this Country to Alexandria, and from Alexandria to their ultimate destination?
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: Eight hundred boats were obtained at an average price delivered at the port of embarkation of £85. They were sent from this country to Alexandria at a cost of £20 each, and their transmission from Alexandria to Halfa cost £40 each.

  EGYPT—THE ALEXANDRIAN INDEMNITIES—MESSRS. LINADINO, RALLI, & CO.
  MR. MARRIOTTasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether it is true that the Egyptian Government have agreed to pay Messrs. Linadino, Ralli, and Co. eighty per cent. or any per-centage of their indemnity claim; and, if so, if he can give any reason why this firm should be treated differently to the rest of those entitled to indemnities?
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: Her Majesty's Government have received no information to this effect.

  EGYPT—CRIME AND OUTRAGE.
  MR. MARRIOTTasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether he can lay upon the Table of the House a Return specifying the number of murders, robberies, and other outrages committed in Lower Egypt during the months of September and October; and, whether numbers of people who have hitherto lived in their country houses (àbàdiêhs) have not during the past two weeks been sending their families to reside in Cairo for safety?
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: Her Majesty's Government are not in a position to lay such a Return as is mentioned by the hon. Member, nor have

  1847
  they received any information to the effect that families are being sent from the country to Cairo for safety. A Special Commission has been instituted in Lower Egypt to put an end to the frequent acts of brigandage which have been committed.

  LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)—MR. R. W. GAMBLE, Q.C., COUNTY COURT JUDGE OF ARMAGH.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether it has come to the knowledge of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland that Mr. R. W. Gamble, Q.C., County Court Judge of Armagh, has detained in his hands, for upwards of two weeks, a number of decrees sent to him during the Armagh Sessions for signature, to the great inconvenience, and possible loss, of suitors; whether Mr. Gamble will be admonished; and, whether the Government will bring in a Bill to render the Judge's signature to decrees unnecessary, and to substitute a court seal therefor, so as to obviate the embarrassment constantly caused by County Court Judges detaining decrees for an unnecessary period?
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Beyond the suggestion in the Question, the Lord Chancellor has no knowledge that any decrees sent to the County Court Judge of Armagh for signature were detained by him. There is some necessary delay caused by comparison with the records. The County Court Judges are not responsible to the Government. It will be remembered that last Session a Bill was introduced by my hon. Friend the senior Member for Monaghan for the purpose, amongst others, of substituting a seal for signature. That Bill was, in this respect, supported by the Government; but it met with such opposition that the hon. Member was obliged to withdraw it.

  LAW AND JUSTICE (IRELAND)—JAMES B. M'CONNELL, PETTY SESSIONS CLERK, DROMORE.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether the Irish Government is aware that James B. M'Connell, Petty Sessions Clerk of Dromore, county Down, was adjudicated a bankrupt; and, whether, under these
  1848
  circumstances, it is in accordance with the rules of the Civil Service to retain him in his position?
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Mr. M'Connell became a bankrupt between eight and nine years ago. The fact of his bankruptcy came at the time under the notice of the Government of the day. Petty Sessions clerks, who are not, strictly speaking, Civil servants, and are not paid out of Imperial funds, were not then treated as within the spirit of the Civil Service Rule as to bankruptcy. The bankruptcy proceedings ended in the appropriation of £40 a-year from salary to the creditors, and the clerk's dismissal now would deprive them of the instalments which continue to be paid by this appropriation. This would make a retrospective application of the Civil Service Rule in this case very unjust.

  ARMY—THE LATE PAYMASTERS ELLIOTT AND HARRIS.
  MR. BIGGARasked the Financial Secretary for War, Whether the public accounts of Paymaster Elliott, attached to the 2nd Battalion Yorkshire Regiment, and of Paymaster Harris, attached to to the 3rd Dragoon Guards, were found in a satisfactory state when those officers died?
  SIR ARTHUR HAYTER: I am glad, Sir, to be able to say that the accounts of these deceased officers were found to be completely satisfactory by the Boards which reported upon them immediately after their death. I protest, however, against such a Question being put, unless some strong ground existed for anticipating a contrary answer. The officers are dead, and, however innocent, such Questions suggest a slur on their memory which, unjustifiable though it be, tends to cause pain to their relatives?

  EDUCATION DEPARTMENT — OVERPRESSURE IN BOARD SCHOOLS.
  MR. STANLEY LEIGHTONasked the Vice President of the Committee of Council, Whether the strongly-marked difference of opinion in the London School Board as to the expediency of the Board, rather than the Education Department, undertaking an inquiry into the alleged overpressure in elementary schools, and the fact that the Na

  1849
  tional Union of Elementary Teachers, representing 13,000 teachers, have endorsed the conclusions of Dr. Crichton Browne and condemned the Report of Mr. Fitch, will induce him to reconsider his refusal to institute an inquiry by impartial medical men into the grievances complained of?
  MR. MUNDELLA: I cannot admit the accuracy of the latter part of the hon. Member's statement. The letter from the Secretary of the National Union of Elementary Teachers distinctly states that—
  "Into the medical part of Dr. Browne's Report the Executive are not prepared to enter."
  I am daily in receipt of evidence from teachers, many of whom are members of the National Union, entirely dissenting from the views set forth in Mr. Heller's letter. I may also remind the hon. Member that there are 50,000 teachers in England and Wales—not including pupil teachers—and 6,000 certificated teachers in Scotland. The London School Board having the whole matter under their consideration, I must decline to take any step which would practically take it out of their hands.

  AFRICA (WEST COAST)—THE LOWER CONGO—THE INTERNATIONAL AFRICAN ASSOCIATION.
  MR. DODDSasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, If the Government are aware that the Congo traders of all Nationalities are opposed to the protection of the Lower Congo by the so-called International Association; if the Government are aware that this Association is believed, on trustworthy evidence, to be either a trading concern or interested in trading projects; and, if, therefore, the Government will use their influence at the Berlin Conference to protect the traders by the establishment of an International European protectorate over the territories of the Lower Congo?
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: The status and proceedings of the International African Association do not come within the scope of the Conference. I have already explained what the objects of the Conference are, and the Papers which I have laid to-day will explain this more fully.

  NAVY—H.M.S. "ACTIVE"—BURSTING OF A GUN.
  MR. FRENCH-BREWSTERasked the Surveyor General of Ordnance, Whether it is true, as stated in the public Press, that a six-inch breech-loading gun has burst during practice on board H.M.S. Active; and, if so, whether the gun in question was of steel or iron, and of the latest pattern?
  MR. BRAND: It is true that a gun burst during practice on board Her Majesty's ship Active. It was a mark II. 6-inch breech-loading gun, having a steel tube and a wrought-iron jacket. The latest pattern of the 6-inch gun is built entirely of steel.
  MR. W. H. SMITHasked whether the Government could give any information as to the cause of the accident, and whether the gun itself exhibited any sign of weakness?
  LORD EUSTACE CECIL: And where the gun was made—at Woolwich Arsenal or not?
  MR. BRAND, in reply, said, that he had not received a final Report; but there was no reason to believe that the accident was due to any fault in construction. The gun was made at Elswick, but was of Woolwich design. It was fully proved, and successfully stood the test. He might also say that the burst occurred at a point not subject to great pressure. It was intended to appoint a Committee to inquire into the cause of the accident.

  ARMY—MEDICAL DEPARTMENT—SURGEONS MAJOR.
  COLONEL WALRONDasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether there is any reason why a communication should not be made to a Surgeon Major that he is not to be promoted to the rank of Brigade Surgeon as soon as it is decided that he is to be passed over, instead of allowing him only to become acquainted with the fact by seeing it in The Gazette.
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: It is distinctly laid down in the Royal Warrant that Surgeons Major are to be selected for promotion to the higher ranks of the Medical Staff. Under such a system, therefore, promotion is not necessarily the rejection of an incompetent officer, but the selection of the

  1851
  most competent officer; and I am not prepared to admit that that officer is passed over who does not happen to be selected for advancement, nor do I see that he is entitled to have notification made to him of his non-selection.

  PREVENTION OF CRIME (IRELAND) ACT, 1882, SECTION 14—SEIZURE OF PAPERS.
  MR. O'BRIENasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, For what reason some of the papers of Mr. Matthew Harris of Ballinasloe, seized by the police, have not been returned; and, whether orders will be given that they shall be at once restored to their owner?
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Nearly all the papers seized were returned to Mr. Harris's solicitor a few days ago. The few still retained will be the subject of further consideration, and a final conclusion will be come to in regard to them without delay.
  MR. PARNELL: I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman under what Act these papers belonging to Mr. Harris were seized, and under what Act they were detained so long?
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I presume under the Prevention of Crime Act, though that is a point on which I cannot express a legal opinion; but I presume under the 14th section.
  MR. PARNELL: Perhaps the hon. and learned Solicitor General for Ireland, who is present, would kindly state under what section of that Act these papers were seized? As I understand it, the 14th section only authorized the seizure of papers in reference to which there was a suspicion of an illegal act being committed.
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: That would probably be the case in this instance. Perhaps the hon. Member would kindly give Notice of the Question.

  LAW AND POLICE (IRELAND)—COLONEL THACKWELL, WHITEGATE, COUNTY CAVAN.
  MR. DEASYasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If it is true that about a year ago the Constabulary at Whitegate, county of Cork, received information that Colonel Thackwell, a resident in that district,
  1852
  had attempted the life of one of his servants with a revolver; and, whether any entry of the information was made in the barrack journal; and, if so, why Colonel Thackwell was not prosecuted?
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Two and a-half years ago—not one year as has been represented to the hon. Member—some disturbance occurred at Colonel Thackwell's residence. He sent a message to the police barrack that he had been assaulted by one of his servants, and he asked that some of the police might be sent up. On their arrival they found that matters had quieted down. It appeared that Colonel Thackwell had fired a shot in the air; but it is not a fact that he had attempted the life of one of his servants. The matter was closely investigated by the District Inspector at the time. There was an entry in the barrack journal; but there was no ground for prosecution.

  POLICE ACTS (IRELAND)—EXTRA POLICE TAX IN GALWAY AND SOUTH MAYO.
  COLONEL NOLANasked the First Lord of the Treasury, If he would take into consideration the low price of stock and produce in the West of Ireland, and also the peaceable state of the Country; and if Her Majesty's Government would mark their appreciation of these facts by remitting the present and future payments of Extra Police Taxes in Galway and South Mayo?
  MR. GLADSTONE: I am not perfectly certain whether the hon. and gallant Member intends in the latter part of his Question to refer to the remission of the payment or to the removal of the extra police in the districts he has named. Any question as to the removal or the diminution of the extra police in any particular district must depend upon the state of that district. During the last three years there has been a reduction in the number of the extra police of 205 in Galway and of 135 in Mayo; but the question as to the remission of the payment of the extra police taxes hardly comes within the discretion of Her Majesty's Government. I think that the subject is one that may shortly be brought under the consideration of Parliament in connection with another subject.

  SCOTLAND—ADMINISTRATION OF SCOTCH AFFAIRS.
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether, since one Irish Bill has already passed this House, and since he has suggested the possibility of passing a Bill to settle the relations to one another of the Australian Colonies, Her Majesty's Government will immediately reintroduce the Bill to settle the relations between the two parts of this island by the appointment of a Scotch Secretary, upon which both parties were substantially agreed at the end of last Session, and by which a Minister may be forthwith provided to look after the Crofter question, and other urgent Scotch affairs? The hon. Member added that on reference to the Notice Paper, it would be seen that after the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer there was no more serious business than a Bill for Women's Suffrage.
  MR. GLADSTONE: We do not propose to bring in this important Bill at the present time. It may be quite true that the House will have its labours during this Sitting occasionally considerably shortened, or it may not be true that I should not reckon on our adjourning early to-night until we have actually adjourned. In that respect I should certainly not like to count my chickens before they are hatched. But we do not think that we could draw a distinction between the Scotch Bill to which the hon. Member refers and a number of other measures which are really both important and urgent. This measure is doubtless important, and I do not deny that it is urgent; but I do not think that it is a measure that could be, with satisfaction to the House or in conformity of the spirit of the pledges which we have given to the House, taken out of the mass of the Government measures hanging over and propose it at once to the House for adoption.

  EGYPT (EVENTS IN THE SOUDAN)—GENERAL GORDON.
  COLONEL STANLEY: I wish to ask the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War, Whether he can, without inconvenience to the Public Service, give to the House further details with regard to the letter which has been received from General Gordon?
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: We have received an abstract of the letter of General Gordon which was received by Major Kitchener, dated, I think, the 4th of November. The contents of that letter have been stated with tolerable accuracy in the newspapers, so far at least as it is expedient to make their contents public at present. It appears that General Gordon himself mentions that the Mahdi knows everything, so that care must be taken as to what is published. In these circumstances, the House will, I am sure, support Her Majesty's Government in declining to communicate any information which might be of use to General Gordon's enemies; and I trust that I may also be allowed to take this opportunity of expressing the hope that the Press—who, no doubt, will receive from their numerous Correspondents information sent to them without any bad intention, but which it would be undesirable to publish—will exercise some discretion in the face of that statement by General Gordon, that the Mahdi knows all about the military operations. I am not certain whether two items in the abstract have yet been published in the newspapers. One is that the Greek and Austrian Consuls are all right, and the other is that General Gordon wishes the newspapers to say that he has received letters through Major Kitchener from Sir Samuel Baker, his sister, and Mr. Stanley from the Congo; but he does not want to have more private letters sent, as it is too great a risk. That, I think, is all the information in addition to what has been stated in the newspapers. I should add that news has been received from another source that the friendly tribes have captured a convoy of 3,000 camels which were on their way from the River Gash to join the enemy.

  NAVY ESTIMATES—DEFENCE OF COALING STATIONS.
  SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH: I understand, from the Correspondence which has recently been published on the defence of our coaling stations abroad, that a certain small expenditure has been sanctioned by the Treasury for the purpose, and I should hope that it may be incurred during the present year. I am anxious to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer when a

  1855
  Vote will be submitted to the House for these works?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS): The right hon. Gentleman is quite right. A certain small expenditure has been sanctioned by the Treasury. The Vote will be submitted to the House early next Session.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
  PARLIAMENTARY FRANCHISE (EXTENSION TO WOMEN) BILL.— [BILL 32.]
  (Mr. Woodall, Mr. Jacob Bright, Mr. Coleridge Kennard, Mr. Stansfeld, Baron Henry De Worms, Mr. Yorke.)
  PARLIAMENTARY FRANCHISE (EXTENSION TO WOMEN) BILL.— [BILL 32.]

    SECOND READING. BILL WITHDRAWN.
    MR. WOODALLsaid, it might be for the convenience of the House if he stated that he did not find himself in a position to ask for a second reading of the Bill for extending the suffrage to women.
    Order for Second Reading read, and discharged.
    Bill withdrawn.

  WAYS AND MEANS.—COMMITTEE.
  WAYS AND MEANS—considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS), in rising to move a Resolution increasing the Income Tax, said: Sir Arthur Otway, the figures in the Budget Estimate which I brought before the House in the month of April last were as follow:—We estimated that the Revenue, after deducting a small remission on account of the Carriage Duty, would amount to £85,533,000, and that the Expenditure—and here I include a small Supplementary Estimate for Civil Services, but I do not include the Vote of Credit for Egypt of £300,000—would amount to £85,427,000, leaving a surplus of £106,000. I have no remark to make, at the present time, as to the Expenditure. I think that it is proceeding pretty nearly on the lines of the Appropriation Act; and, so far as any further Supplementary Estimates for Civil Services are concerned, which may have to be proposed to Parliament in the early part of next Session, I think that they may be, as they have been generally of late years, expected to be met by the savings under other heads. As
  1856
  far as the Revenue is concerned, we have reason to anticipate a small increase upon the Estimate as I laid it before the Committee, though I should be sorry at the present time to give any precise figure for that increase. Well, that being the state of things as to the Budget and the Civil Service Supplementary Estimates of last Session, I will now proceed to the Supplimentary Estimates for the Army and Navy. During the last Session the House adopted as a Vote of Credit in connection with General Gordon, an appropriation of £300,000; and last week the Committee of Supply passed Resolutions voting, in connection with the Soudan, £1,000,000 for Army Service and £324,000 for Navy Service, making £1,324,000 in all; and in connection with the operations in Bechuanaland £675,000 for the Army and £50,000 for the Navy, or £725,000; and these three heads—namely, the Vote of Credit last Session, the Vote for the Soudan Expedition, and the Vote for the Bechuanaland Expedition, amount altogether to £2,349,000. I repeat, then, that on the corrected Budget Estimates of last Session there will be a surplus of £106,000; that in the Revenue we might expect some improvement; and, further, that any Supplementary Estimates to be proposed next Session will probaly be met by savings; so I think we should be safe, under the circumstances, in taking the present fiscal position as one which, if we do not add to the Revenue, will leave us a deficit on account of the year of about £2,000,000. Well, Sir, it has been my duty to consider from what sources of Revenue it would be proper, in the month of November, to propose to the Committee to make good that sum, and having carefully considered all the sources of taxation to which it has been reasonable to look, I am able to say that I could not recommend any change in our fiscal system with respect to indirect taxation for so temporary a purpose as the improvement of the Revenue in the remaining months of the year. Any such change would have a very disturbing effect upon our trade on whatever article the duty might be increased; and, besides, it would, if it only extended to the next four months, produce a small and unsatisfactory amount of Revenue, unless the increased rate of duty were very great indeed. Under these circumstances,

  1857
  then, I see no alternative but to propose to the House a small addition to the Income Tax. Now, Sir, it has more than once happened that such an addition to the Income Tax has been proposed, either early or late in the Autumn of the year; for instance, the last addition was in 1882, when the House voted an addition of 1½d. to the Income Tax for the operations in Egypt; and there is a case which resembles in some respects—but only in some respects—the present, and that was when the House voted an addition of 1d. to the Income Tax of 1867 on account of the Abyssinian War. The late Mr. Ward Hunt, who moved that Vote, proposed it in Parliament on the 28th of November, a little later in the year than I am proposing an addition now. That Vote was at that time adopted without practically any question in Parliament, and the Income Tax was raised from 4d. to 5d. in the pound. I propose to adopt a similar measure now, and to ask the Committee to approve an addition of 1d. to the Income Tax, raising it from 5d. to 6d. in the pound for this financial year. I will state to the House, as precisely as I can estimate it, the financial effect of that increase. If hon. Members will refer back to the statement I made in opening the Budget, or will refer to the weekly Returns of Revenue and Expenditure, in which there is a column stating the anticipated amount received from Income Tax, under the head of Revenue, they will see that a 5d. Income Tax is estimated to produce—and this year it will receive no assistance from a larger rate than in the previous year—£2,010,000 for each 1d., or, in all, £10,050,000. If the rate is increased to 6d. in the pound, the amount for each penny will not be quite so large. We anticipate that it will be at the rate of £1,995,000 per 1d., or that 6d. will pro-duce £11,970,000. That gives an increase in the receipts from the 6d. Income Tax over the 5d. Income Tax of £1,920,000. Now, all this £1,920,000 it will not be possible to receive before April 1. We cannot estimate that we should receive during the financial year closing at the end of March next more than £1,200,000. So that £720,000 will be received on and after the 1st of April next, and that is a somewhat better proportion than that which Mr. Ward Hunt expected to get, and still better than what he actu
  1858
  ally got. It is quite unnecessary, on the present occasion, to go into details as to the system of collecting Income Tax, and how it will now be possible to receive a somewhat larger portion of the addition of 1d. than Mr. Ward Hunt received in 1867–8. But these are the figures we have arrived at after very careful consultation with the Revenue officers, showing that £1,200,000 is what we hope will be received during the present financial year, and that £720,000 will be received after the end of the financial year. Upon that the only remark I have to make is, that the balances, as we expect them to stand at the end of the financial year, will be quite sufficient to bear that charge of £720,000; these balances being recouped during the early part of the next financial year, as the remainder of the proceeds of the additional 1d. comes in. Sir Arthur Otway, that is the simple proposal I have to make to the Committee. As I said before, I do not think that, at this time of the financial year, we can have recourse to any tax other than the Income Tax. I, therefore, trust that the Committee will adopt the proposal to raise that tax for the present year from 5d. to 6d. I shall be happy, as I can address the Committee more than once, and as my hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Courtney) will also be able to do so, to give the Committee any information on questions of detail arising out of questions asked us in debate. But, at present, all that it is necessary for me to do is to move the formal Resolution, which I now put into your hands.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That, towards raising the Supply granted to Her Majesty, in addition to the Duties of Income Tax granted by 'the Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1884,' there shall be charged, collected, and paid for the year which commenced on the sixth day of April, one thousand eight hundred and eighty-four, in respect of all Property, Profits, and Gains mentioned or described as chargeable in the Act of the sixteenth and seventeenth years of Her Majesty's reign, chapter thirty-four, the following Duties of Income Tax (that is to say):
  For every Twenty Shillings of the annual value or amount of Property, Profits, and Gains chargeable under Schedules (A), (C), (D), or (E) of the said Act, the Duty of One Penny;
  And for every Twenty Shillings of the annual value of the occupation of Lands, Tenements, Hereditaments, and Heri

  1859
  tages chargeable under Schedule (B) of the said Act, the Duty of One Halfpenny;
  Provided always, That, with the view of securing the additional Duties and affording the proper rights of deduction in respect thereof in the case of Dividends, Interest, or other annual sums due or payable half-yearly or quarterly in the course of the said year, where one of the half-yearly payments or two of the quarterly payments shall have been made, the other half-yearly payment or quarterly payments shall be charged with the additional Duty of Two Pence for every Twenty Shillings of the amount thereof; and where three of the quarterly payments shall have been made, the other quarterly payment shall be charged with the additional Duty of Four Pence for every Twenty Shillings of the amount thereof.
  "Provided also, That the charge under this Resolution shall be deemed to be satisfied by an addition of one-fifth of the amount of the Duties assessed under 'The Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1884,' to such amount, and payment of such addition therewith."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: The statement made by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer is very short; but it is of so startling a nature that I think it requires instant comment, because, taking the most favourable view of his own Estimates, we see here a Liberal Chancellor of the Exchequer, pledged to peace, economy, and retrenchment, coming down to the House, and admitting a deficiency of nearly £800,000. When the original Estimates of Revenue were before the Committee, in connection with the Budget of the present year, there was a unanimous opinion expressed on this side of the House, in which I certainly joined, that Her Majesty's Government had not made sufficient allowance for contingencies which were more or less certain to arise. It was a matter of almost absolute certainty that an Expedition of some kind or other would have to be sent to Egypt; but the Government made no provision for such an Expedition. We have the high authority of the Prime Minister for believing that nothing is more inconvenient to trade and commerce than to bring in a second Budget in the middle of the financial year; but now, when trade is most depressed, down comes the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, just when the trading communities have made their arrangements to meet the financial burdens of the year, with an addition of 2d. to the Income Tax for the last half-year. But, unsatisfactory as this is, it is not all. Meagre as the
  1860
  statement of the right hon. Gentleman is, and unsatisfactory as the main outlines of it are, I very much fear that a much more unsatisfactory statement will have to be made a few months hence. There is not a single man in the House who believes that the Estimates, large as they are, which have been presented by the Government, will in any way be sufficient. I cannot understand how any Government, with a knowledge of the magnitude of the Expedition they are sending out up the Nile, could present Estimates of so small a character as £1,000,000. It is perfectly clear that the object has been not to cover the actual expense, but to give the Government a plausible excuse for increasing the Income Tax by 1d. only during the present year. The one maxim which the Prime Minister is always insisting upon is, that on every occasion we ought to square our accounts for the year, and that there is no greater act of immorality in reference to finance than for a Government, deliberately, with their eyes open, to present a Budget with a deficiency. That was the one solitary remnant left of the financial policy laid down by the Prime Minister in Mid Lothian; and even that has now gone. I think, before we assent to this proposal, we ought to have a clear Estimate of what our liabilities for this year will probably be, and what our Expenditure will amount to. It is perfectly clear that, under the most favourable Estimates, there will be a deficiency of something like £1,000,000 for the present year. The Government are about to propose large additional Estimates for the Navy. Where is the money to come from? Then there is to be an addition to the fortifications used for the protection of our coaling stations. Where is the money to come from? On Tuesday next the House is to have a statement from the Prime Minister as to what charges are to be put on the English taxpayers for the finances of Egypt—a burden imposed upon the trade of this country in order to support the policy of Her Majesty's Ministers in Egypt, which has practically brought that country to a state of bankruptcy. Under those circumstances, I say that when the Chancellor of the Exchequer comes down to the House, and asks for power to impose additional taxation, he ought to give us some idea of the liabilities we have al

  1861
  ready incurred. We have heard a great deal of the extravagance of the late Government. Let me place before the Committee a statement of the Expenditure of the present Government. They commenced with an initial Expenditure of £85,500,000. To that we must add the extra receipts of the previous improvements in the Revenue, bringing it up to £86,300,000. A further addition must be made of the amount paid by India for Home Establishments, included in the Revenue of the previous year, which brings the total Expenditure of the present Government to £87,300,000. That is exclusive of the Supplementary Estimates. The Committee has sanctioned Votes to the amount of £2,300,000 more, so that the Expenditure of Her Majesty's Government, pledged as they are to peace, retrenchment, and economy, amounts this year to the enormous figure of £89,600,000. Now, Sir, these are startling figures; and if this were an exceptional year, one might pass them by without comment; but I have here a Statistical Abstract, published this year, showing the Expenditure during the past five years, and I find that this is not an abnormal year, but that every year Her Majesty's Government have been in Office the Expenditure of the country has increased at an unparalleled rate. If the Committee will allow me, I would ask their attention for a moment or two while I place before them the enormous dimensions which the Expenditure during the past five years has attained. I cannot estimate what the actual Expenditure of this year will be; but I assume that if the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer realizes the income which he has estimated that he will obtain, and adding the sums previously paid for extra receipts on behalf of the Army and Navy, and £1,000,000 paid for the Home Establishments in connection with India, the Estimate for this year's Revenue will amount to upwards of £89,000,000. In the preceding year, making the same calculations, and including the extra receipts, the Expenditure was £87,300,000; about £87,000,000 in the year before; about £85,000,000 in the year before that; and £82,000,000 in the year preceding. Adding the Expenditure in those five years together, I find that, since the present Government have been in Office, should the Esti
  1862
  mates of the present year be confirmed, the Expenditure of the country has amounted to the enormous sum of nearly £436,000,000. Now, Sir, the late Government were turned out of Office chiefly because the nation was told by the Prime Minister that they had adopted a policy so expensive that it was beyond the capacity of the nation to bear. Well, I will take the income of the last five years the Conservatives were in power, and I find that it only amounted to £399,000,000, showing a balance against the present Government of £37,000,000. But there are two deductions to be made from that. I give the Government credit, at the present moment, for having more than paid their way. I make an allowance on that account of £1,500,000. I deduct that sum from their Expenditure, and I also admit that we failed by £6,500,000 to cover our Expenditure, and that will increase the actual income we received by £6,500,000, which represents a failure of income during the five years the Conservative Party were in power. Allowing, therefore, £1,500,000 for the Liberal surplus and £6,500,000 for Conservative deficiencies, it will still be found that the income which the Government have received during the last five years is £29,000,000 over and above that received by their Predecessors in their five years of Office. Their Expenditure, taking the most moderate estimate, has been more than £29,000,000 above that of the Conservative Party. It has been asserted on Liberal platforms, and by the Prime Minister in Mid Lothian, that the increased Expenditure has been owing to the Government having to pay the debts of their Predecessors.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I spoke of the engagements inherited from our Predecessors.
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: It is quite possible for the late Government to assert that if the different and proper arrangements they had made in Afghanistan and in connection with Eastern affairs had been completely carried out by their Successors, things might possibly not have been placed in so unfavourable a position when they came into Office. Therefore, I think they can afford to leave out of the present discussion the engagements which they inherited from their Predecessors; but the present Government have spent,

  1863
  during five years of Office, £29,000,000 more than was spent by the late Government during their five years' tenure of Office. It is asserted that this is due, to a very large extent, to their paying off the debts of their Predecessors, and that the increase arises from the annual increase of the charges in reference to the reduction of the National Debt. Now, my hon. Friend the Member for the University of London (Sir John Lubbock) has for some time past promulgated that theory; but he has moved for a Return which annihilates it. If he will take the trouble to look at that Return, which shows all the payments made on behalf of the National Debt during the last 10 years, he will find that we paid £135,000,000, and that Her Majesty's present Government have paid £140,000,000, making a difference of £5,000,000 only. Well, I give the Government the full credit and benefit of that difference of £5,000,000, and also of the £3,750,000 paid to India on account of the Afghan War, and, deducting those sums from the £29,000,000 I have alluded to as their excessive Expenditure, there still remains upwards of £20,000,000 to be accounted for; and I assert, and I challenge contradiction, that the whole of that £20,000,000 is entirely due to increased Expenditure connected with the Army, Navy, and Civil Services, or, in other words, that Her Majesty's Government, who came in power to practice economy and to reverse the extravagant measures of their Predecessors, in five years have expended an average of £4,000,000 per annum more than the late Ministry did. These are startling facts, and, unfortunately, there are symptoms which indicate at the present moment that the Revenue has lost much of its elasticity; and for the first time in the history of the Income Tax it is showing signs of going back, or, at any rate, of being deprived of that progress which has distinguished it in past years. Under these circumstances, it may be asked, What are we to do? I suppose we have no alternative but to assent to the proposal of Her Majesty's Government. When the Prime Minister was in Mid Lothian, he set up a defence on behalf of the Expenditure of his Government. I read that defence, which was a very ingenious one, with the care and attention which everything that falls from the right hon. Gentleman
  1864
  deserves to receive; but it most unquestionably involves heretical principles in regard to finance, and absolutely immoral arithmetic. Allow me to explain what I mean. The right hon. Gentleman, for the purpose of defending the Expenditure of Her Majesty's Government, laid down certain doctrines, which I contend that both sides of the House ought at once emphatically to repudiate. He deducted from his Expenditure the amount by which the National Debt has been reduced during the time the present Government have been in Office. He deducted that from the Expenditure, and because the amount by which the National Debt had been reduced was greater during his term of Office than during the term of the late Government, the right hon. Gentleman went on to argue, before his audience, that his Expenditure had been less than that of the late Government. I maintain that that is a most dangerous and immoral doctrine, because nearly the whole, if not the whole, of that reduction of Debt, took place under the automatic operation of the system of Terminable Annuities. When filling the Office of Chancellor of the Exchequer, my right hon. Friend beside me (Sir Stafford Northcote) pointed out more than once the effect of the operation, and showed that, while reducing the Debt, they began, at the same time, to incur fresh liabilities. The Prime Minister has set up his argument on a doctrine which I never heard advanced before by a Chancellor of the Exchequer—namely, that he got no benefit from the Terminable Annuities set up by his Predecessors.
  MR. GLADSTONE: What is the noble Lord quoting from?
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: I am speaking only from my memory, and I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he endorses the doctrine set up by the Prime Minister, because the right hon. Gentleman has resuscitated the system of setting up Terminable Annuities, and the sole object of setting up Terminable Annuities is for the purpose of reducing Debt. The amount set apart for the purpose of the Debt, in order that an annual reduction may take place, is, no doubt, independent of the Expenditure in connection with the Army, Navy, and Civil Service; and no Chancellor of the Exchequer, or any

  1865
  Member of the Government, has, I believe, attempted to justify any excessive Expenditure by the plea that, under the automatic process of Terminable Annuities, there was an increase in the amount of Debt paid off. If that principle is allowed to prevail, we should derive no advantage from the extinction of Terminable Annuities, because the Expenditure on the Army, Navy, and Civil Service would be increased to an equivalent amount. The Return which the hon. Member for the University of London obtained puts that point in the clearest possible manner. Take two periods—say, 1874 and 1884. The annual charge for the total service of the Debt in the first year was £26,100,000; but the amount which, under the automatic process of Terminable Annuities, was paid off yearly, was £3,100,000. Ten years later, in 1884, the total charge for the Debt, including the Sinking Fund, was £28,100,000, or an increase of £2,000,000; but, by the automatic process of Terminable Annuities, no less than £6,700,000 will be paid off, and the Prime Minister, in Mid Lothian, credited himself with the difference in charge, and with the increased amount of Terminable Annuities paid off, because they were approaching termination. What I contend is that he had no right whatever to do that, or to set up the doctrine that because, under the process of Terminable Annuities, they are still reducing Debt, that, therefore, they are entitled to the same amount to increase the National Expenditure on the Army, Navy, and Civil Service. [Mr. GLADSTONE dissented.] The right hon. Gentleman shakes his head. I see that he does not like the practical application of his own theory.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I only want the noble Lord to be a little more accurate in the statement he makes. I distinctly declined to say that I was satisfied with the state of the Expenditure. So far from setting up any theory of the kind imputed to me, I never said anything of the sort.
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: That has nothing to do with my point, or my argument. I do not suppose that the Prime Minister is alone in his dissatisfaction at the state of the Expenditure. I venture to say that there is not a single person in the country who does not agree with him. I have his speech
  1866
  here. He began by warning those be addressed to be on their guard against the Tories, and he concluded by saying that he had laid the figures before his audience, and that he challenged any man to shake them or deny their correctness. All I am doing now is to submit the figures of the right hon. Gentleman to a fair criticism. The argument the right hon. Gentleman used was that, deducting from the Expenditure the amount of Debt paid off during the time he has been in Office—because the Debt was less than during the time the late Ministry were in Office—he was entitled to contend that therefore his Expenditure was less. But the reason why he paid off more was because certain Terminable Annuities were approaching their termination, and they were handed over to him at the time the present Government came into Office. It did not involve any fresh charge; but the operation of those Annuities undoubtedly did diminish annually, to an increased amount, the principal of the National Debt. Then, I say, that if the Prime Minister is justified in setting up his theory, he might deduct from his annual Expenditure the amount by which, under Terminable Annuities, the Debt is annually reduced; and, in that case, there ought to be an end to the system of Terminable Annuities altogether, so as not to allow the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Prime Minister to set up a doctrine so dangerous and detrimental to economy as that which the Prime Minister was pleased to present to his Mid Lothian constituents. I will deal with only one other point. The right hon. Gentleman deducted from the comparative Expenditure of the present and the late Governments the cost of collecting the Revenue. Why should he deduct the cost of collecting the Revenue? We keep up such large establishments of the Army and Navy, for the purpose of protecting the Revenue, and we maintain another establishment—the Civil Service—for the purpose of collecting it. If we deduct one, why should we not deduct the other? The cost of collection and of protection are both dead charge upon the Revenue; and the reason why the right hon. Gentleman deducted the cost of collecting the Revenue was because the cost was greater under the present Government than under the late Government, and if he had included it the

  1867
  figures would not have come out as he wished them. There was one sentiment which the Prime Minister gave utterance to in Mid Lothian which was a very admirable one—namely, that it was the policy of the Government that regulated the Expenditure. What I want to know is, what the policy of the Government has been in regulating this Expenditure, which is the largest Expenditure we have ever known? We are now asked to sanction the means of sending out two Expeditions, one to South Africa and the other to the North of Africa. I do not propose to trench upon the discussion which unquestionably will arise, both as regards the Expedition to South Africa, as well as that to the Soudan, and in regard to the arrangement of affairs by Her Majesty's Government. But I recollect that, two years ago, when Lord Derby was asked to put an end to certain outrages which had taken place in Bechuanaland, the noble Lord gave a characteristic reply. He said—"What will it cost? It will cost more than the fee simple of the whole country is worth." Has the fee simple of land in Bechuanaland increased so largely that Her Majesty's Government are now justified in sending out an Expedition? Again, they are sending out another Expedition to Egypt to bring home three distinguished officers of Her Majesty's Government at Khartoum, two of whom, have, unfortunately, been murdered since the Expedition was decided upon. I cannot help recollecting that not more than two years ago, when General Hicks asked for assistance, a mocking reply was sent out to our Representative to this effect—"Report quickly the opinion of Her Majesty's Government, but take care to give no advice." Now, however, the Khedive is threatened with a plethora of advice, and one of the most important of Her Majesty's Ministers has been sent out in order that he may advise his Colleagues as to the best course to be followed. I think it would have been a better and a more simple process for Her Majesty's Government to have given their directions straight to their Representatives in Egypt. There was a remarkable statement published, not long ago, by those who were specially appointed by Her Majesty's Government to inquire into the condition of Egyptian finance, and I think the Government will do well to bear it mind.
  1868
  The statement was that there is a law in Egypt by which every Egyptian subject sent to the Soudan is entitled, if wounded, to a pension; and if killed, his family are entitled to remuneration. This report states that in consequence of the operations in the Soudan there are no less than 40,000 persons or families entitled to pensions from the Egyptian Government. I do not say that all these 40,000 persons lost their lives, or were wounded through the negligence of Her Majesty's Government; but, unquestionably, most of them have, and the result is, that not only has a serious amount of life been sacrificed, but that an enormous tax has been inflicted upon the Egyptian Government, which it is altogether unable to bear, and it will have to be, in some shape or other, transferred to the shoulders of the English taxpayers. [Cries of "No!"] Well, we shall see. My impression is that some such proposal will have to be made to Parliament. I have stated the reason why I rose to take part in this discussion; and I hope we shall have, on the part of the Prime Minister, if not a repudiation of the words he is reported to have used in Mid Lothian, at any rate an emphatic repudiation of the doctrine which they conveyed.
  MR. GLADSTONE: My point was, that the sums paid for the reduction of Debt might be deducted from the ultimate Expenditure.
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: That is not exactly the point. What I maintain is, that if you set up Terminable Annuities, annually increasing in amount, you have no right to deduct the principal so reduced from your annual Expenditure. I say that if you do deduct it—and I understand the Prime Minister to say it may be deducted from the Expenditure—any Minister, by adopting such a process, could make his figures less than another Minister who had been in Office under less favourable circumstances. That is what the Prime Minister stated at Mid Lothian, and I am convinced that on no other occasion except upon the hustings would the Prime Minister have repeated that doctrine. Although I sympathize very much with the unfortunate taxpayers who will have to pay this extra 2d. in the pound Income Tax in one sense, I trust that this extra imposition of taxation will bear good fruit. It will bring home to everyone what is the

  1869
  post and the price of a policy of perpetual vacillation. Her Majesty's Government have had great advantages. They have had the largest majority ever known; they are led by the ablest Parliamentary tactician it is possible for the House to possess. Yet what have they done? They have succeeded, by their foreign and Colonial policy, in lowering the reputation and in endangering the interests of the country in every direction. [Cries of "No!"] I say "Yes;" and, in accomplishing this unlucky result, they have succeeded in wasting more money and in sacrificing more lives than the most aggressive of their Predecessors. I hope the sharpness and unpleasantness of the lesson will not be forgotten by the country, and that it will bring home to the country this fact—that, in the administration of an Empire like that of England, there is no policy so ruinous and expensive as that which is dictated not by natural exigencies, but by the internal discords of the political Party which happens for the time being to be Office.
  MR. RYLANDSsaid, that when he had the honour of bringing under the notice of the House a Resolution in favour of a reduction of National Expenditure, he was anxious to avoid, as far as he could, any comparison between Conservative and Liberal finance; and he had urged then, as he ventured to urge now, that what the Committee had to consider in regard to the Expenditure of the country was, not how it could promote Party interests or throw responsibility on one Party or the other, but whether the position in which the country was placed was such as to be advantageous to the public or satisfactory to the taxpayer. He did not propose to follow the noble Lord opposite (Lord George Hamilton) into the remarks he had made, and especially into those in which, in adverting to the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the noble Lord had attempted to show that the present Government had been much more extravagant than their Predecessors; nor would he venture to enter into the wider field the noble Lord had opened up, as to the conduct of the Government in reference to high matters of policy in Egypt and South Africa. He (Mr. Rylands) took it for granted that all those matters would come before the
  1870
  House in a legitimate manner, when they could be discussed, as no doubt they ought to be discussed, in reference to all their bearings on the administration of the country, and in the interests of the taxpayers at large. He had not been surprised at the nature of the proposal made to the Committee that evening by his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. No hon. Member could feel surprised, after having seen the Government following so closely in the footsteps of their Predecessors, that now, in the month of November, in utter disregard of the doctrine that there should only be one Budget in the course of the year, the House of Commons should be called upon to make provision for two Budgets. They were to have fresh taxation. What was it for? He fully admitted, with his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that if they were to have fresh taxation, it would be intolerable to impose it in the way of indirect taxation. He believed the Committee would fully concur in that view; but was it not a fact, and was it not felt throughout the country to be a fact, that the owners of precarious incomes were unjustly treated by the imposition of the Income Tax? Could anybody contend that real property was fairly treated in regard to taxation? [Cries of "Yes!"] How about the probate duty? Was it not a fact that millions of taxation were imposed upon the earnings of the industrious portions of the community in taxes, while the most stable property of the community escaped? Had not the Prime Minister admitted, in Mid Lothian, the injustice—and they all believed it to be an injustice—inflicted upon those who had a precarious income by the imposition of the Income Tax, and yet things were allowed to drift on, and no effort was made to remedy that injustice. And now, at a time of grievous commercial depression—at a time when capital was receiving a very miserable return—often no return at all; when every trade and every industry was suffering, the Government proposed to make the burden still heavier. [An hon. MEMBER: Free Trade.] He declined to be any party to the raising of that question. But he must say that at such a time as this, for the Government to come down to give another turn of the screw, at a period of great depression, and at a time when

  1871
  the injustice in the mode of levying taxation was left without a remedy, would, he was satisfied, be productive of great irritation and annoyance to the country. He would only remind the House that, at a period when, on every ground, people of this country ought to be dealt with leniently on the score of taxation and expenditure, it was proposed to increase their burdens. Hon. Gentlemen opposite talked about local burdens; and, no doubt, they were quite right in asserting that, at the present moment, the people of this country were bearing an enormous burden in the shape of local expenditure, not only for what they wanted for themselves at the present moment, but for the deficiencies of their Predecessors. [Cries of "No!"] That was certainly the fact. Were not the present generation improving the sewerage and sanitary arrangements of the towns, and building schools, and carrying out other local improvements which their ancestors had neglected. These works were being done now, and the people were taking the burden of making permanent improvements upon their own shoulders for the benefit of posterity. Hon. Gentlemen opposite knew perfectly well that the localities were not only discharging duties which belonged to their Predecessors, but that they were bearing burdens for the relief of their Successors. And what was the time when this additional burden was proposed? It was imposed at a moment when no relief of taxation was attempted by reducing indirect taxation, and when no attempt was made, by diminution of taxation, to give a stimulus to the industry of the country. It was at such a moment that Her Majesty's Government brought in measures for paying off the National Debt; and this very year, when we were paying £7,000,000 towards the reduction of the National Debt, Her Majesty's Government came down and proposed to place upon the shoulders of the taxpayers an additional burden to be raised by this most objectionable system of taxation. Of course, he protested against it. He believed the Expenditure of Her Majesty's Government was altogether unjustifiable. The fact that he sat on that side of the House would never induce him to support Her Majesty's Government in an Expenditure which he be
  1872
  lieved to be unwarrantable. No doubt, some persons said it was a matter of policy, and that a great deal of the Expenditure of the country absolutely depended on such policy. What was it, however, that his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said to him (Mr. Rylands) in regard to the Motion for a reduction of Expenditure which he had brought forward last Session? His right hon. Friend told him that the Treasury were most carefully investigating various branches of Expenditure with a view to secure economy. He (Mr. Rylands) had seen no evidence of the result of any such investigation. On the contrary, the Expenditure had gone on increasing, and he had seen great branches of Expenditure, in which he believed there was enormous waste of money, continued without any attempt being made, permanently, to grapple with the evil. They were about to have in their hands a most important Report from a Departmental Committee in regard to the Dockyards. He had no doubt that very considerable economy might be effected in the administration of the Dockyards, notwithstanding the fact that they wanted more ships and greater naval power. It was admitted, even by those who were interested in the matter, that the Dockyard system was a most extravagant and inefficient system. In point of fact, he had been told by a Member of the Committee on the other side of the House—a man of the highest position, character, judgment, and experience—that, in his opinion, at least 20 per cent might be saved in the cost of administering the Dockyards. The result, if the Expenditure was 20 per cent higher than it ought to be—and he had no doubt that it was, from his own personal knowledge of manufacturing operations—there was a waste of at least £ 1,000,000, or even £2,000,000 a-year, in connection with the Dockyards; and as this waste had been going on for many years, the exercise of greater economy would have provided the country with a considerable number of good iron-clads. But the extravagant expenditure of money still went on. What were the Government doing in order to stop it? Nothing whatever. But although they failed to do anything to reduce the expenditure in those branches of the De

  1873
  partment where it was now excessive, or to prevent the waste of £1,000,000 or £2,000,000 per annum, they came down now, and asked the Committee for 1d. additional Income Tax. No doubt, the Committee would grant it. Committees of Supply and Ways and Means always granted this kind of taxation, and never took into consideration how the people were suffering. He was sorry to see that that was a point which his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer never realized. The Prime Minister and his right hon. Friend constantly boasted of their surpluses, and took pride to themselves and to the Government for the fact that there was a surplus. They were constantly informing the House that they always had a surplus; that they had done this and that out of the surplus; and that they had paid certain sums out of the surplus. But where did the surplus come from? The Government did not manufacture it. If the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, by some administrative legerdemain, could manage to produce a large surplus without going to the pockets of the people of the country he would be the most admirable and charming Chancellor of the Exchequer who had ever sat on the Treasury Bench. Unfortunately, the right hon. Gentleman did not profess to get a surplus in any other way than by taking it out of the pockets of the taxpayers of the country. What did that money represent? There were millions of men in this country who, whenever they wanted additional capital in order to carry on their industrial enterprizes, had to pay 6, 8, or 10 per cent for it; and, nevertheless, the Government took out of the pockets of these poor men a certain proportion of that capital which they were not going to use for the service of the nation, but which would remain as a surplus to clear off their debts. In reality they were clearing off the obligations of the country by money taken from the pockets of people to whom it was worth from 5 to 10 per cent, when they were quite able to clear off their obligations by money raised at 3 per cent. What on earth could be the justification of such a policy? He must say that he entertained an earnest hope that the Franchise Question would soon be out of the way; because, so long as it stood in the way, neither the House
  1874
  of Commons nor the country would devote their attention to any other question. He maintained that there were many other matters to which the attention of the House and of the country ought to be turned, and one of the most urgent was that which concerned the Expenditure of the country, the obligations of the country, and the imposition of burdens upon the people in the shape of taxation. He had constantly spoken in that House against the extravagant Expenditure of the Government. He knew the feeling of a great body of the ratepayers, and he was perfectly satisfied that sooner or later, whichever Party was extravagant and imposed undue burdens upon the country, would be called to account by the taxpayers, and no mere comparison between Conservative and Liberal finance would be a sufficient answer to the complaint of the people. On the contrary, the people would express their opinions in unanswerable language, and they would show by their votes that their complaint was against the undue and unnecessary burden of taxation. He was glad to hear from the Leader of the Opposition, from right hon. Gentlemen who had acted as his Colleagues, particularly from the noble Lord the Member for Middlesex (Lord George Hamilton), and from other leading Members of the Conservative Party, that they were in favour of economizing the National Expenditure. They appeared anxious to show that in regard to the Public Expenditure they were not as bad as they were thought to be, nor as bad as other people. He (Mr. Rylands) had always been struck, however, by the fact that their performances were very different from their promises; and that, although they professed economy in reference to the Expenditure of the country, they failed to show it in their acts. It had been said that "Hypocrisy was the homage which vice paid to virtue;" and they had at least the satisfaction of seeing, from what might be called the financial hypocrisy of the Front Benches, that whilst maintaining excessive expenditure, leading Members on both sides of the House still recognized the demands of public opinion in favour of national economy. He had no intention of opposing the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer; but he could not help re

  1875
  gretting that the Government had not endeavoured to solve the present difficulty in some other way. He regretted extremely that, at that time of the year, the Government had not seen their way to throw this additional tax upon property, rather than upon industrial incomes. He should, however, have felt still more gratified to find that the Government, by economical administration, had not been driven, at that late period of the year, to ask the House of Commons to sanction a further increase of taxation.
  MR. GORSTsaid, he wished to ask a question, because he thought the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been purposely vague in one part of his statement, and that the right hon. Gentleman had not put before the Committee the exact financial result of this operation. If he rightly understood the Chancellor of the Exchequer, his previous Budget, above any provision made for any new source of expenditure, left him with a surplus of £106,000, including certain Supplementary Estimates, passed in the previous year. Apart from the new War Expenditure they were now called upon to incur, there was a small surplus of £106,000. He understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that, although there might be a small increase of income above the Estimate before them, the whole of that increase would be swallowed up by some Civil Service Supplementary Estimates in the coming Session.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS): No. What I said was that the Civil Service Supplementary Estimates to be proposed in February would probably be met by savings on other Votes.
  MR. GORSTasked if he was to understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that there would be a small estimated increase of income available for meeting the present War Expenditure? If that were the case, would the right hon. Gentleman tell the Committee what the amount of that increase would be, because otherwise there would be no means of dealing with it? So far as the right hon. Gentleman had condescended to actual figures, he had not met, by a good deal, the increased expenditure the House had voted. The House had voted increased expenditure to the amount of £2,349,000, and the right hon. Gentle
  1876
  man only proposed an increased taxation that would yield £1,930,000, leaving a deficit of £419,000. If from that was deducted the surplus of £106,000, which existed upon the former Estimates, the net result of the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman would be a deficit of £313,000. The question he wished to ask was, whether the net result of the various Budget proposals was that the country was left, at the end of the financial year, with a deficit of £313,000. If that were not so, he thought the right hon. Gentleman ought to tell the House from what other source he expected to make up the deficiency, and what the amount of such increased income would be upon which he estimated an increase of ordinary taxation equivalent to £313,000. The Committee ought to receive that information, or otherwise the Estimates of the right hon. Gentleman would remain in a hazy form, even if they did not result in a positive deficit. What he wished to have an explanation upon was, whether it was possible, under the proposals of the Chancellor of the Exchequer as they stood, to meet the Expenditure of the year out of the income of the year?
  MR. H. H. FOWLERsaid, he sympathized a great deal with the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands) in reference to the reduction of the Expenditure of the country, and also as to the desirability of the economical question being, as far as possible, removed from the disputed arena of Party politics. But, unfortunately, the noble Lord the Member for Middlesex (Lord George Hamilton), who opened the discussion, had made a purely Party speech. The noble Lord had made a Party attack upon the Government; and, not content with that, he had supplemented an attack on the finance of the Government with another attack upon their foreign and Egyptian policy. He (Mr. H. H. Fowler) found no fault with the noble Lord for doing that; but he proposed, for a moment or two, to answer what he might call the fighting portion of the noble Lord's speech, totally irrespective of the question raised by the hon. and learned Member for Chatham (Mr. Gorst). The noble Lord credited Her Majesty's Government and their followers with the total increase of the National Expenditure, and had tried, with great effect, to trace the large increase in the total Expenditure

  1877
  of the country, which had taken place during the present Administration, to the results of their foreign policy. But he (Mr. H. H. Fowler) had observed in the speech of the noble Lord, what he had often noticed in the speeches of Conservative orators, a singular silence with regard to a comparison of the Expenditure of the last Conservative Government and of the Liberal Administration which preceded it. The figures which prevailed between 1870 and 1874 were many millions less than the figures which prevailed between 1874 and 1879; and he thought the noble Lord would find that one of the charges against Conservative finance which was made in 1880, was that the effect of that finance had been steadily, and he was afraid permanently, to raise the general Expenditure of the country. The late Government, when they acceded to Office, found a low rate of Expenditure, which they steadily increased, partly by their financial policy and partly by their foreign policy. The present Government, when they succeeded the Conservative Government, found a very high rate of Expenditure. The noble Lord tried to convince the Committee that that Expenditure had been very largely increased by the present Administration. In dealing with the increase, he (Mr. H. H. Fowler) submitted that there was nothing more delusive and nothing more absurd than to say that the Expenditure of this country was the total sum which appeared in the Financial Abstract, whether it was £89,000,000, £87,000,000, or £82,000,000, as the case might be. The Government of this country, in addition to the ordinary Expenditure required for the Army, Navy, and Civil Services, carried on a large trading concern; it acted as a banking concern, and it also performed certain services for the public for which it received fees. The more trade it did the larger the Expenditure; the more banking it did the larger the Expenditure; the more service it rendered to the country in respect to the item for which the fees were received, the larger the gross Expenditure. Nothing could be more misleading than an Abstract annually presented to show the Expenditure of the country, which, as a matter of fact, might be twisted to any purpose whatever. The right hon. Gen
  1878
  tleman the Member for the City of London (Mr. J. G. Hubbard) had for some years past—since 1867—annually moved for Returns in which the Income and Expenditure of the nation were analyzed. That Return gave, for instance, the gross expenditure of the Post Office on the one side, and the cost of working the Post Office on the other, and then credited the income of the country with the net balance; and, in the same way, all the other branches of the Public Service were dealt with. The figures taken from that sheet were signed by the Secretary to the Treasury in the last and the present Administrations, and might be taken to be strictly accurate. Indeed, he (Mr. H. H. Fowler) knew they were accurate from having checked them with the Financial Account of the Public Income and Expenditure, from which the noble Lord opposite (Lord George Hamilton) had taken his figures. The noble Lord took the Expenditure of the late Government for four years and the Expenditure of the present Administration during the last four years. [Lord GEORGE HAMILTON: No; for five years.] He proposed to take the Expenditure for four years. He found that the Expenditure of the late Administration was £288,000,000 during the four years; while the net Expenditure of the present Administration during the last four years had been £299,000,000. He was not going to argue that that did not, on the face of it, show that the Expenditure had been increased under the present Administration during the past four years by £11,000,000. How had that increase arisen? The noble Lord gave them some figures showing a very large increase in reference to the sums paid by the two Governments for the reduction of the Public Debt; but the gross entries as to the cost of the Public Debt were again misleading. The net amount paid during the last four years of the last Administration for Debt charge was £109,600,000. The present Government had had to pay, and it had paid, £113,401,000, or an increase of more than £4,000,000. Of course, the explanation of that was self-evident. The permanent Debt charge of the country for the five years which had lapsed since the present Government came into power had increased. The last act of the right hon. Baronet the Member for North

  1879
  Devon (Sir Stafford Northcote) was to add Terminable Annuities for five years, in order to repay the deficit of the Administration. That sum had, therefore, to be found by the present Government, and the increased charge paid by them for interest and repayment of Debt during the time they had been in Office had been upwards of £4,000,000. Then there were £2,500,000 for the Afghan War. He did not pretend to say whether that contribution was wrong or not; but, as a matter of fact, the present Government had paid £2,500,000 in aid of the Indian Revenue in respect of the charge for the Afghan War. In addition, they had had a very large extra Expenditure occasioned by the state of things in Ireland. Further, there had been a considerable increase of Expenditure in consequence of the principle established in 1874—that most vicious and disastrous principle of subventions in aid of local taxation, which, if not speedily dealt with, would land the country in most serious difficulties. That item was steadily increasing. Then there had been a large increase, and it was one in which he rejoiced—a large increase on account of education. He took it for granted that, although there had been a good many things predicted as to what the coming Democracy would do when the Franchise Bill was passed, there was one thing it would not do—it would not economize the Education Act; and, whatever Votes might be cut down, there would be no attempt to effect economy in that Department of the Public Expenditure. Then, in addition, they had had the Egyptian Expenditure, which already amounted to something like £4,000,000, and would probably amount to a good many millions more. But hon. Members opposite should be the last persons to cry out against the Egyptian Expenditure; for they had—and certainly nobody more eloquently than the noble Lord the Member for Middlesex—all along called upon the Government to put down its foot firmly, and proceed to decisive measures. [Cheers from the Opposition.] He had anticipated those cheers. And if the Government were to proceed to measures of annexation, protection, or something more, the present Expenditure would be a mere bagatelle compared with what the country would be involved in when
  1880
  these disastrous steps were undertaken. Under these circumstances, he thought the explanation of the increase in the present Expenditure was clear. The causes could be traced, and if the House chose to arrest the cause it knew exactly the springs it ought to touch. He was not disposed to argue with his hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands) as to the best mode of meeting the Expenditure. He did not know what else the Government could do, except to put the additional Expenditure upon the Income Tax. After all, he rather agreed with the noble Lord the Member for Middlesex that those who called for and advocated a policy of warlike expeditions should pay the piper. As a Representative of a large constituency, who had to earn its daily bread by its daily toil, he should have felt strongly inclined to oppose any attempt to increase the duty on tea, or on any other article of daily consumption. The House of Commons and the country had sanctioned this Expenditure in Egypt on behalf of General Gordon, and would have held any Ministry to blame who had refused to send out an Expedition, however much they might differ as to the policy of sending General Gordon out in the first instance. When the great question as to economy came before the House again, he should only be too happy to do what little there was in his power to support the noble Lord the Member for Middlesex, or hon. Gentlemen who sat around him, in proposing a reduction of the National Expenditure. He was sorry to see that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for North Devon (Sir Stafford Northcote), in one of the addresses he had made during the Recess, had indulged in some somewhat satirical remarks at the expense of the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands) and himself (Mr. H. H. Fowler), accusing them of being ready to run away whenever any proposition was made for a real Committee to inquire into this question of the National Expenditure. He (Mr. H. H. Fowler) could assure the right hon. Baronet that he was labouring entirely under a mistake. He was deeply disappointed that the Government had not appointed a Committee. He had understood that a Committee was promised by the Prime Minister 12 months ago; and if nothing was done in that direction at the commencement of

  1881
  next Session, he should endeavour to take the sense of the House upon the question. He held that they would never get any effective system of control ever the National Expenditure until they adopted the principle of devolution. He believed that if three Standing Committees were appointed—one to deal with the Army Estimates, another with the Navy Estimates, and a third with the Civil Service Estimates—and that if those Committees had the Estimates before them at the commencement of the Session in the same way that Bills were now referred to Grand Committees, the House would be saved a great waste of time in Committee of Supply, and a considerable amount of labour which, as a rule, produced very trifling and unsatisfactory results.
  MR. W. H. SMITH: I have listened, as the Committee always does, with great interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler); and he may be certain that this side of the House would receive, in a cordial spirit, any proposals he may make that would tend to the simplification of the Business of the House, or the promotion of economy in the Public Service. I own that, for my own part, I am most anxious that there should be a most careful investigation into the Expenditure of the country; but, on the other hand, I should deprecate, in the strongest manner, any devolution of the responsibility of the Treasury, with whom it rests, to propose to Parliament economical Estimates, for which the Government alone are responsible. If the House were to take into its own hands the supervision of the Estimates of every Public Department, there might be a tendency on the part of the Department to go behind the Treasury to the Committee, and to set the Treasury, in some respects, at defiance in regard to its proposals and recommendations, throwing on the Committee, with the comparatively insufficient information in its possession, the responsibility of deciding what the Expenditure shall be. Therefore, while I concur with the hon. Gentleman that something should be done on the responsibility of the Government, with a view of checking the vast growth of Expenditure which has taken place during the past few years, still I trust the House will take no steps whatever to relieve the Treasury of its proper and Consti
  1882
  tutional responsibility. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Chatham (Mr. Gorst) drew attention to the fact that the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated his surplus this year at £106,000; and he then went on to show that there had been Supplementary Estimates for the Expeditions to the Soudan and Bechuanaland amounting to £2,349,000, leaving an apparent deficit of £2,243,000, which requires to be provided for. The Chancellor of the Exchequer says that he anticipates that there will be some growth of the Public Revenue to meet a portion of this Expenditure; but the right hon. Gentleman did not indicate how much. Assuming it to be £250,000, I am sure we shall be extremely glad to get a growth of public income to the extent of £250,000. But he then provides, by imposing an additional Income Tax of 1d. in the pound, for a gross receipt of £1,920,000; but from that tax of 1d. only £1,200,000 will be received during the financial year. The result, in the face of the account, will be a deficiency of £1,000,000, unless there is that growth of income which the Chancellor of the Exchequer expects. But, even if there is that growth of £250,000, there will still remain a sum of £750,000 which will have to be paid out of the balances, and which will not be contributed by the 1d. of Income Tax received during the present year; and £750,000 will go to the help of next year's Revenue, and not towards this year's Expenditure or this year's Debts. The result will be that the £750,000, or £1,000,000—whichever you may please to call it—will be expended out of the sum which would otherwise go towards the reduction of the National Debt. Therefore, the Chancellor of the Exchequer departs from the understanding entered into by the Prime Minister, to pay the Expenditure of the year out of the taxation of the year, and he reduces the amount which would otherwise be applied to the reduction of the National Debt by £750,000. I think I am correct in my assumption that he suggests the amount will be made good from the surplus of the Income Tax which will come into next year's account. The right hon. Gentleman knows very well that every year is dealt with by itself, and it can hardly be expected that he will estimate for a surplus of £750,000

  1883
  to pay off the National Debt which may be accumulated in the course of the present year. There is one other point to which I wish to refer. There is an expectation that some proposals may be made to Parliament in regard to the condition of the Navy, and no provision is made in this Estimate for those proposals. I am not one of those who desire that a large or a panic Expenditure should be made in respect of any part of the Public Service; but I think it necessary, in the interests of the country, that some expenditure upon the Navy should be provided for now, and that such provision should not be postponed until next year, the provision including the acceleration of the construction of ships, the supply of torpedo vessels, and other important matters. I have no desire to anticipate the discussion which we are promised next Monday; but I wish to point out that we are not making financial provision for all the deficiencies which are in sight during the Session, but that we are ignoring a subject upon which I feel convinced the country feels very warmly and very deeply, and for which there is an absolute necessity to make some provision. I honestly feel that, as completely as there is a necessity for making a provision for fire-engines or fire-escapes, there is this necessity for further provision at this moment; and I think it would be most insane on the part of any Government to postpone making that provision for another three or four months, in the hope that the danger which may be apprehended may be put off for an equal period of which we have no knowledge and no forecast. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will make it quite clear whether I am right or wrong in the assumption that there is a deficiency of £750,000 on the face of the account, which will have to be paid out of the balances.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I only propose to detain the Committee for a few minutes. I have no intention of interfering with the functions of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon this occasion; but I left the House just now, and on my return I found the noble Lord opposite (Lord George Hamilton) engaged, as is his manner, in a lively and vigorous attack upon myself. As upon this occasion it is not desirable to enter into these ques
  1884
  tions at any length; and as I wish to take upon myself the whole responsibility of some doctrines which the noble Lord has charged upon me, and which he considers formidable, but which I regard in the contrary light, I feel bound to make a few observations in reply to his speech. There is a slight difference between us—a difference which I am afraid is not likely to be reconciled. Still, there is one point with regard to which I should like to make a modification, which I will explain in a few moments. I am not quite sure whether the noble Lord intends to say that whenever an Act of Parliament has been passed which provides that certain sums shall be paid out of the Consolidated Fund for the year for the reduction of the National Debt, the payment of that money for the purpose for which it is required by law ought to be set down to the credit of those who passed the Act requiring it to be made. [Lord GEORGE HAMILTON: No.] Very good, lam quite right in that. In my opinion it is those who find the money for paying the National Debt who ought to have the credit of paying it, and not those who merely write upon paper, in an Act of Parliament, an enactment stating that such things shall be done. But then the noble Lord contended that I had committed an error in taking credit for the entire reduction of the capital of the Debt in the four years of the present Government, because he said that of the sum which was paid on account of Terminable Annuities, a small amount went to interest in the four years of the late Government, and a larger amount to the capital of the Debt. Upon that subject I differ in principle from the noble Lord; and I hold, and I am prepared to argue at length, if it should become necessary for me to do so, that every Government is entitled to take credit for the amount of the reduction of the capital of the Debt which is effected during the time of their tenure of Office. I hold that to be quite indisputable. I believe that I should gain by the adoption of the opposite doctrine, for this reason—that the proportion of capital Debt paid off under the form of Terminable Annuities is smallest at the commencement of the operation. Now, Sir, I have myself been a great founder of Terminable Annuities; and that being so, if I were to adopt the rule of the noble

  1885
  Lord, and to go back to all the time when I have been most directly responsible for the finance of the country, and to bring the account down to the present time, I should profit considerably by the adoption of it. But I do not admit that rule. I hold that the operations of a Government on the reduction of Debt are not to be measured by the amount it pays for interest, which merely satisfies the claim of the stockholder, but are to be measured exclusively by the reduction effected upon the capital. There is another question upon which the noble Lord touched. The noble Lord appeared to think that I was quite wrong to proceed as I did—that is, having, first of all, set up the gross Expenditure of the country, then to proceed to deduct the cost of collection. I will tell the noble Lord what I think upon that matter. Had I been dealing with the Budget in the House of Commons, when it would either have been expedient, proper, or practicable to enter into a great multitude of minute details, I should not have denied that by looking to the cost of collection you may trace, to a certain extent, the result of economical or lax administration, and, therefore, to some limited extent, I am prepared to admit that that observation of the noble Lord is just. It may be said that one Government would have saved £200,000 in cost of collection which the other Government had not saved. That is a very small matter, and a thing which is quite right to be set out in a minute and careful exposition, such as may be made in this House when the question at large is under discussion; but it is absurd to introduce such matters, and perfectly impossible to make them intelligible in a statement which must be given summarily and in a few figures to an audience in the country. It is quite true the noble Lord may say that you would have realized a larger profit from the Post Office if no great changes had been introduced into the administration of that Department under the present Government. I think that is true, and some small sums might be put down to the credit of the Government, when I come to a comparison of Expenditure; but then I am bound to say that, if I am to do that, I must look to many other matters for which I have not taken credit. I must look at the automatic growth of these Votes, and especially those charged
  1886
  upon us by our Predecessors; and I have not the slightest hesitation in saying that if I give the late Government credit for not having spent that money, I must also say that they would not have given the public that accommodation which they now enjoy—such as the Parcel Post, and divers other changes which the present Government have effected. If I should give the late Government credit for £200,000 on that account, and then take to ourselves credit for the automatic growth of certain Votes, all of which we owe to the late Government, we should be very considerably the gainers by the transaction. I think it is quite clear that, in point of principle, for purposes of just comparison of Expenditure, the cost of collection ought to be deducted. Speaking generally, we divide the cost of collection in this way. The Customs Department and the Inland Revenue Department incur a certain amount of the cost of collection, which does not vary very greatly; and I believe that both of those Departments—particularly the Inland Revenue—have been conducted with special regard to economy. The cost, however, does not vary very largely from year to year. But when you look at the combined business of the Post Office, the Telegraph, and the Parcel Post, that is a vast undertaking, the business of which is constantly augmenting, and in which the working Expenditure forms a very large proportion of the whole cost; and to leave all that out in calculating the gross Expenditure of the Department, and then to make your comparison, would be nothing less than absolutely ridiculous. What I have said elsewhere upon this subject is perfectly just, and I am prepared to abide by the consequences of it. I am prepared to abide by what I said, which was this—I admitted that, at first sight, on the gross Expenditure, there was an apparent balance of, I believe, £13,000,000 against us on the four years; and I ended by showing that, upon the real Expenditure, there was a balance to our credit of between £4,000,000 and £5,000,000. But I did not stop at that point—I stopped there for a moment because I had said all that was matter of fact. But then I went on to say that, with regard to our Expenditure, we must take into view questions in which we had had to meet charges entailed upon us, as we conceived, by the policy of our Predeces

  1887
  Sors. First, I took the payment of £4,750,000 which we had made on account of the Afghan War; and that, added to the other £4,750,000 already brought up, will make £9,500,000. But I went a great deal beyond that, and I did not scruple to go a great deal beyond that; and in every place, here and elsewhere, as long as I have the faculty of speech, and the duty of speech, I shall contend that the whole of our War Charges are due entirely to the policy of the late Government. The whole of the War Charges connected with the Transvaal, and the whole of the War Charges connected with Egypt, are due to our Predecessors. [Laughter.] The hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Onslow) is a profound student of these matters. I do not dispute his right to laugh in my face at the most serious conclusion I pronounce. That method of argument he is perfectly welcome to continue, as far as I am concerned; but, at the same time, do not let him think it too great a presumption on my part if I place my opinion against his; or if, honestly, I tell him, as I think I may, that on the whole, if not quite, I am nearly as capable of forming an opinion upon this subject as he is. I am aware that the hon. Gentleman has explained what his opinion was; but still I cannot withdraw altogether the opinion which I expressed last year, and which I express now. I was glad to hear the speech of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler), which I thought was a perfectly consistent speech. One point he referred to was of a practical nature—that which concerned the appointment of Financial Committees—respecting which I believe he said he intended to make a Motion, which I admit he will be quite right in making. He will understand that the pledge we gave was a prospective pledge, relating to the commencement of next Session. My hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands) laid down certain doctrines; in the first place, about the National Debt. Does he consider the scope of those doctrines? They are utterly opposed to any paying off of the National Debt whatever. What he says is, that we are paying 3 per cent for our money, and that many men who are engaged in commercial transactions are paying 10 per cent. Does my hon. Friend consider how far this doctrine
  1888
  goes? If it is cruel to take money to pay off the Debt, because we take the money from men who are paying 10 per cent, and are only relieving the State of 3 per cent. he ought to go farther still. If there is anything in the argument of my hon. Friend, it is an argument to show that the making of the National Debt is the most economical arrangement possible. Does he mean that the Debt ought to be increased, or does he mean that it ought to remain stationary? If he means that it ought to remain stationary, how does he stop the application of his own argument? How does he answer those who think that it ought to be increased? If, instead of voting £10,000,000 for the Navy, we borrowed it, we should raise it at 3 per cent; whereas, if we raised it by taxation, we should be taking the money from men who are paying for it 10 per cent. Well, then, my hon. Friend argued strongly for economy, and said that he felt he had no part of the responsibility for these increased charges. I thought he used a phrase which is not altogether gracious when he spoke of "financial hypocrisy." God forbid that I should apply it to anybody. If applied at all, it should be applied to people whose language and actions are in contradiction, and I am not sure that my hon. Friend was quite clear on that point. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has had a very heavy charge to meet for Egypt and the Soudan, which will come near to £7,000,000. I think I remember a speech of the hon. Member for Burnley, which, instead of being conceived in the spirit of the hon. Baronet the Member for Carlisle (Sir Wilfrid Lawson)—who I perfectly admit has a right to come down upon us, and to say what he thinks on this matter—recommended and advised a war policy. My hon. Friend must really take his choice; he cannot have the luxury of making speeches of that class, and at the same time the luxury of protesting against the increased Expenditure.
  MR. RYLANDS: Allow me to remind the right hon. Gentleman that from this place in the House I denounced as strongly as possible the bombardment of Alexandria; but I subsequently stated that, the Government having committed themselves to that act, I thought it necessary that they should take such a decided policy as would

  1889
  allow everyone to understand what that policy was.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I am perfectly ready to argue with my hon. Friend with reference to the bombardment of Alexandria, and to ask him what he would have done at that time; but that does not help my hon. Friend to the slightest extent, because it is since then that he said that a decided policy should be adopted; and, if so, why does he now make objection to the cost of it? He says now, I confess, that a decided policy ought to be adopted; but we all know what is the effect of language like that. Surely he cannot, with consistency, complain of an addition to the Income Tax, for the cost which is the necessary result of that policy. Well, Sir, my hon. Friend is strongly in favour of economy in the Dockyards. I hope he will be able to effect it. We entirely agree with him. My hon. Friend, however, slipped in a very awkward phrase, from his point of view, when he said we wanted more ships. Will my hon. Friend undertake to build us more ships out of the economies which he is to effect in the Dockyards? If he will undertake to say that, then he is perfectly right in protesting against this increased Income Tax, in casting blame upon the Government, and even in talking of financial hypocrisy. Well, Sir, the noble Lord (Lord George Hamilton) also finds fault with the increased Expenditure, and yet he and his Party on every occasion when increase of Expenditure is in question urge on that increase of Expenditure. There has been no increase of Establishments which has taken place that has not been strongly supported by those who sit about the noble Lord, and which I expect will be further strongly supported before a week or a fortnight is over. Now the noble Lord asks, "What is the policy which entails this vast Expenditure?" I will tell the noble Lord. It consists mainly of two propositions. One of them is, that of creating no new cause of quarrel except in deference to some imperative claim of interest or honour. That proposition, Sir, is the rule upon which we have acted without deviation from the time of our assuming the reins of Government, and we have created no new cause of quarrel whatever with any Power or person. We have not had the grand conception with which those who preceded us were either
  1890
  blessed or plagued. We have been content to be as abstinent and as quiet as we could, and we have constantly been censured by opponents for having adopted a policy of non-interference, and for having caused the influence of this country no longer to be felt in war, and for disclaiming all the grand and high-sounding sentences as to ascendancy in the Councils of Europe. The other principle on which we have acted is this, to keep the strictest faith in the execution of obligations from the policy of which obligations we entirely dissent. That is the history of our proceedings in South Africa and in Egypt. Those are the two countries in which the great and most unhappy military charges of the present Government have been incurred. But everything that we have had to lay out with regard to Zululand, Bechuanalaud, and the Transvaal grew unhappily out of that ill-omened and most dishonourable annexation of the Transvaal by the late Government—an annexation effected in spite of the protest of more, I think, than nine-tenths of the people, when the pledge had been given that the country should not be annexed, except in conformity with their view. What are we doing in Bechuanaland now? We gave certain pledges to certain Chiefs, and how came those pledges to be given? Simply, in connection with the hostile relations established in the Transvaal. Of course, it is competent to hon. Gentlemen oppposite to say—"It is not our proceedings, it is your mismanagement." [Laughter.] I do not complain of that language, and I say it is a matter of opinion between us, and our contention is not to be met by scornful laughter, a weapon which, I must say, is too much growing into use, and with respect to which those who are specially responsible set the worst example. Sir, on this question, I should speak for myself, for probably no man's conscience can be lighter on the Question of Egypt than my own, because I told hon. Gentlemen opposite in 1876—eight years ago—what would come of their first intervention, of the first attempt to bring the Government into the management of Egyptian affairs. They listened for two years, and they soon afterwards went out of Office. Then came the double engagement to keep the Khedive on the Throne, and to work in exclusive connection with France. Then began an inextricable

  1891
  entanglement of events, one linked with the other by chains which cannot be broken. There is not a step that we have taken which has not been the necessary consequence of that—I do not say guilty, for I believe it was well-intended—but that most unhappy and unfortunate proceeding. Although I have heard plenty of objection taken to the policy of the Government, no hon. Gentleman opposite has shown us an alternative policy. How were we to escape from the position in which we were bound to support, so long as he did not misbehave himself, a particular person on a Foreign Throne, and to support that person in conjunction with, another country, and to do nothing without the assent of that country? That was the condition which we inherited, and out of which every item of Expenditure one by one arose; and we are told now, forsooth, that we are responsible for the tens of thousands of lives which have been lost; that we are responsible for the war in the Soudan! Why, when you had control, did you not settle the question of the Soudan? ["It was not alive."] Not alive! Why, the Soudan had been in revolt almost continuously; it had only been kept down by foreign arms from the time of the first and most unhappy effort to occupy it. Well, Sir, the noble Lord, who thinks he makes a strong point of it, says—"You are responsible for the 40,000 or 50,000 lives lost." Why, it would be far more rational if I were to tell him that his Government were responsible for the hundreds of thousands of lives lost in the Russo-Turkish War. [Laughter.] The noble Lord laughs now. I did not laugh when the noble Lord made the statement I have just referred to. I received it with an amount of respect which I think was far greater than it deserved. I never attempted to make the late Government responsible for the hundreds of thousands of lives which were lost in the Russo-Turkish. War. But I say, without the slightest hesitation, that, in my opinion, a rational policy—and I have pointed to that policy long ago—would have prevented the loss of every one of those lives. That, Sir, is the state of the case as regards the Russo-Turkish War. We have had terrible engagements entailed upon us. We shall leave behind us, if we retire from Office, sad engagements. We have
  1892
  had frightful difficulties to contend with, from which in several quarters we have extricated the country. We found, in the Treaty of Berlin, alive and burning, two questions relating to Greece and Montenegro, either of which might have involved Europe in another mighty conflagration. Both those questions were settled without the shedding of one drop of blood. We found 50,000 or 70,000 men necessary in Afghanistan to oppose a gallant people, although imperfectly civilized, trodden down by the iron heel of military power. That war was perhaps as remarkable for guilt and folly as is recorded in any part of history. Afghanistan became free. Afghanistan is again friendly, so far as the memory of recent wrongs can be effaced by efforts to do right; and the 40,000 men whom India had to find for the performance of that odious task have returned from that country to the North-West Frontier. I admit that from South Africa we have not been able to extricate ourselves. South Africa, in my recollection, has always been a standing difficulty. I am sorry that I have been obliged to make this statement. The noble Lord has compelled me to do so; I could not sit here and receive his charge with respect to the 50,000 lives, for which he said, in his mild and moderate language, we are responsible in consequence of our perpetual vacillation, by which these lives have been sacrificed and our honour lowered. ["Hear, hear!"] Yes; our honour has been lowered since you annexed the Transvaal against its will. Our honour is lowered since you drove the friendly Ruler of Afghanistan into the grave, and went into that country without cause and without justification, and inflicted upon the country all those miseries of war of which we read the harrowing details. Why, if you had been treated with that severity with which you treated us, what would you have said? We never took the dreadful case of the murder of Cavagnari in that spirit; I am not aware that any Gentleman in this House charged that upon the late Government. What would have been said to us, if such a treacherous thing had happened in our time? No, Sir, we have endeavoured to struggle with the difficulties with which we were confronted. I am now going to make an observation that will, I think, be admit

  1893
  ted, so far as it goes, to be true on both sides of the House. My observation is, that during the last 10 years the foreign policy of this country has presented a much more disturbed aspect than the policy of the 10 years that preceded it. It is quite true that if we were to quit Office we should hand over difficult and complex questions of policy to our Successors; but I trust that we should receive a just and equitable consideration from them. But it is also true, in our judgment, that we had handed over to us a set of such questions as was never handed over by one Government to another. We may pass over to our Successors a painful inheritance. We received a painful inheritance. But has it always been the case that every outgoing Administration has given to its Successors a legacy of difficulty and despair, as now seems to be the case? No, Sir. In 1874, when the late Government came into Office, the Foreign Secretary of that Government declared that in every portion of the world the foreign relations of this country were thoroughly satisfactory. Not a single difficulty of any kind had been passed over by us to those who were our Successors. The present occasion only admits of broad and general statements in answer to the broad and general statements which have been made against the Government. I am ready to fortify and defend those statements at every point and on every fair occasion, and I am perfectly convinced that the nation will do justice to us under the difficulties with which we have had to contend and the efforts we have made to overcome them.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: Sir, we have been, I must say, rather surprised with a considerable portion of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister. I do not deny that he is quite within his right in following up some observations of my noble Friend (Lord George Hamilton), and upon them hanging a general discussion on the whole foreign policy of the present Government and its Predecessors. But I am bound to say that I think the Committee has rather been led away from the immediate questions submitted to us, and from the points of my noble Friend's speech. At the same time, it is impossible for me entirely to pass over some observations of the right hon. Gentleman in the
  1894
  concluding portion of his speech. He has again, and in a very marked manner, repeated the charge which he has so often brought against his Predecessors, and the excuse that all that has gone wrong is to be attributed to some action on the part of the late Government. Now, it is a very remarkable thing that we have never had the benefit of that kind of argument applied to ourselves. I was reminded by my noble Friend near me of a possible parallel in the case of the Abyssinian Expedition. There is nothing on which the right hon. Gentleman is so fond of twitting the late Lord Derby's Administration with as the Abyssinian Expedition. It is all put down to us; and yet, according to the method of the right hon. Gentleman, every shilling expended in that Expedition—I was going to say every life that was lost, but there was no life lost—every shilling was due entirely, not to our action but to that of Lord John Russell, who never answered the letter of the King of Abyssinia, and thereby made the Expedition necessary. That is exactly as good an answer and as good a case as many of those which the right hon. Gentleman is so fond of putting forward. But there is something rather remarkable in the way in which the right hon. Gentleman deals with these questions, and goes back to the root of the evil. If he would go back to the very beginning of all things in every case, there would be something in it; but in this, as in all cases, he selects a convenient point from which to start. I entirely deny the propriety of his charging us with all the consequences of our relations with Egypt, and all the war and all the misery that has been occasioned within the last few years. Let us for a moment grant his method of argument. He says all the difficulty arose from our opening certain relations with Egypt; but he does not take his start from the beginning of our relations with Egypt, when he says he warned us as to the result of the connection which subsisted between us and some of the financial arrangements in that country. No; because Lord Derby was then in Office—but he chooses the period at which Lord Derby left Office, and takes an act when Lord Salisbury was at the Foreign Office, and founds upon it his accusations against us. I object to his taking these things in

  1895
  this way, and assuming that the whole of the conduct of the Government flows from the acts of their Predecessors. The acts of their Predecessors do not flow from the earlier acts which were those of Lord Derby, but come from the original sin and mischief of Lord Salisbury, and from that has come all the sins of Lord Beaconsfield's later years and all the misery and mismanagement af the present Government. That, I think, is one of the most extraordinary assumptions to make upon the credulity of the House of Commons that it is possible to conceive. He turns upon us, and he says—"You took a certain line with regard to the Dual Control, and in consequence of that it became necessary for us to go step by step into the bombardment of the Alexandrian forts, into the battle of Tel-el-Kebir, into all the putting down of Arabi and his men, and into the further proceedings we have had to take with regard to the troubles in the Soudan and so forth; all these things came from your misconduct in having signed a Paper in which there was a certain provision for what is called the Dual Control." Why really, Sir, that is mocking the common sense of the House. You ask what we would have done on this point or on that. There are many points on which we should have taken a line which would, as we believe, have entirely prevented and stopped all this mischief and trouble. I take the familiar case of the Soudan, and I think if you had taken a reasonable and common-sense line when Hicks Pasha was going into the Soudon, if you had then said you would either support or prohibit that Expedition, none of these difficulties with which we are now beset would have occurred. "But" says the right hon. Gentleman, "that has nothing to do with it; it was Lord Salisbury having agreed to the Dual Control that was the cause of Hicks Pasha being killed, and the cause of Gordon going out, and the cause of this Expedition up the Nile."
  MR. GLADSTONE: I never said it was the cause of Hicks Pasha being killed, or in any way made the late Government responsible for that disaster.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: I thought that was part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech—that it was intended to be immediately relevant to
  1896
  the question before us, which is the supply of funds for the Expedition up the Nile, and which is directly connected with the operations in the Soudan. But I do not desire to go at full length into all these questions; all I say is that, if we are to discuss them as questions of the foreign policy of the Government, the right hon. Gentleman will find that he cannot maintain, and that no one will support him in maintaining, the doctrine he so constantly endeavours to establish—that everything is due to the actions of his Predecessors. Now, with regard to the Transvaal. We may have been right, or we may not have been right, in the action we took in respect to the annexation of the Transvaal; but, certainly, many hon. Gentlemen on that side of the House, who are great authorities on this subject, found no fault with what was done by us, but, on the contrary, they approved of what was done by us. [An hon. MEMBER: Lord Kimberley!] Yes; Lord Kimberley and others, Colleagues of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone). But whether that was so or not, I maintain that the Government, when they had to deal with the question, had before them two courses, either of which they might have taken; they might have maintained the act of their Predecessors, or they might have reversed it. They did neither the one, nor the other. If they had at once reversed it, if they had said—"This thing is so shocking, so bad, that our consciences will not tolerate it," they could, without the slightest sullying of the British honour, have retired from the Transvaal; they could have made whatever terms they pleased with the Transvaal Government and have retired, with the conviction that they had done nothing to lower the honour and prestige of England. They might, on the other hand, have maintained the position; that they could have done—and they themselves have often told us—they could have put down the resistance of the Boers, by sending a very small amount of force. But they did neither the one, nor the other. They did not give back the Transvaal; they endeavoured to enforce the annexation; they brought about fighting and bloodshed, and then they gave way in a manner which lowered fatally our position in the country, and when we were obliged by the commonest feelings of honour to make stipulations

  1897
  for the protection of certain of the Native races and of our Native allies, the effect of those stipulations was destroyed by the manner in which the Government had previously acted. You have no right to come down here and say all this is due to our action. It was not to our action, but it was to your action it was due. [An hon. MEMBER: Inaction.] Well, action or inaction, whichever you please; it was due to a bit of both. It was due to action, not deliberately, or carefully, or well-prepared, but action which was taken up as it were from hand-to-mouth, and which turns out much more expensive and wretched in the end. That is a point to be borne in mind in reference to the matter for which we are now providing the funds. Are we really assured that sufficient provision has been made? Are we satisfied that the expenditure which we are called upon to incur, and much of which, I believe, might have been avoided even later in the proceedings by a more distinct military policy—that is a point I will not now go into—but are we assured that we are taking enough for this Expedition, or shall we not find that we have again and again to come to Parliament for fresh supplies in this matter? Sir, I have ventured to make these few remarks upon a point to which the right hon. Gentleman leads us in the course of his very eloquent but rather discursive speech. There are several other matters upon which I am tempted to say a few words, and I trust I may be allowed to say them, though they are of a less general character—they have reference to what fell from the right hon. Gentleman in answer to the observations of my noble Friend the Member for Middlesex (Lord George Hamilton), and I do not think the right hon. Gentleman understood the point which my noble Friend, as I comprehended him, was making. What my noble Friend said was this—"If you are to compare the Expenditure of one Government with the Expenditure of another Government, if you are to say this Government has spent more or less than its Predecessor, you must consider what method or course you ought to adopt in order to bring about a fair comparison." And my noble Friend added that the comparison which the Prime Minister drew, in a speech he made recently in Edinburgh, upon this subject was an
  1898
  unfair comparison, because in the course of that comparison he deducted what he had no right to deduct. The question is, that one Government had spent so much upon the Army, Navy, Civil Services, and other sources of Expenditure, and the other Government had spent so much more. "Then," says the right hon. Gentleman, "you must deduct from the Expenditure on the part of my Government what has gone in the way of reduction of Debt; you must not deduct what we have paid in the reduction of Debt, but you must debit the amount of Debt we have got rid of," very much as you might say, when you are comparing the Navy Estimates, you must not ask how many millions one Government spent on the Navy, and how many millions the other Government spent upon the same Service, but you may deduct from the Expenditure of one Government the greater value of the ships you have obtained than the other Government obtained. It may be very proper, if you are comparing the best method of paying off Debt, to say you will have it paid off by Terminable Annunities or by redeeming so much from year to year. That is a fair question to argue, and you may be in a position to say you make out a case for better finance by adopting one or the other system. But if you are to compare Expenditure, you may set aside what you have paid for expenditure upon the Debt, and you may very fairly compare the amounts which are applied to the redemption of Debt; but if you apply those amounts to one system it will answer your purpose for your comparison, but if you apply them to another system it will not. If you apply £2,000,000, let us say, in setting up Terminable Annuities and in reducing Debt, the interest in the first years becoming less and less, and the principal in the first years becoming more and more—if you apply £2,000,000 a-year in that way, that is an expenditure of £2,000,000 a-year. You produce a certain result by it. Suppose, on the other hand, we take the system of applying £2,000,000 out of the Exchequer, without setting up Terminable Annuities, for the redemption of Debt to the amount of £2,000,000 a-year, you expend precisely the same in each year upon the Debt. It may be a question whether the one system is better than the other; but you have no right

  1899
  to deduct from your Expenditure that which is not the money you have spent in paying Debt, but the money you have gained by paying Debt. This may be a very academical discussion; but my noble Friend points his moral in a very important and significant way—and here I invite the attention of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler). My noble Friend says that if it has to be placed to the credit of a Government that it has redeemed a certain quantity of Debt, and that that is to be an excuse and a reason for its increased Expenditure, then it will follow that a Government which spends more and more upon the Army, Navy, Civil Services, or anything else, may get off without any blame on that account, because, at the same time, it has been redeeming a large amount of Debt. Is it to be argued that a Government's Expenditure is not to be reckoned as large as it really is because this fictitious sum by which it has reduced Debt is to be deducted by it? The right hon. Gentleman has, to a certain extent, explained or more fully stated what he intended upon another question which I will advert to. I only wish he had done so in Mid Lothian, to the people whom he was addressing, because they, no doubt, went away impressed with the rough statement he made. He says it was not possible for him to go into detail.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon. With regard to the Debt, I might have added some explanation on the question of the collection of Revenue. I did not enter into that; but if I had, I should have put down some items to our credit on the other side.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: With regard to the collection of Revenue, the right hon. Gentleman is perfectly at liberty to put down any items that he pleases, and to claim credit for them in a general view of his finance; but when he compares Expenditure with Expenditure, he ought to compare Expenditure with Expenditure; and we complain that that is not what he did do. There is no doubt it is monstrously unfair and unjust to shut out altogether the collection of the Revenue as an expenditure not belonging to the Expenditure of the Government. It may be that the expenses of collection are small sums when
  1900
  compared with the millions we are talking of; but there is no man knows better, or has preached more warmly, than the right hon. Gentleman himself that the small sums are the important ones to look to in the general administration of finance. It is exactly upon such matters as the collection of Revenue that you have an opportunity of making small economies, and of taking care that what you spend is spent properly and as economically as possible. The right hon. Gentleman knows quite well that, in many of these cases, it is not merely the expenditure on the Parcel Post or anything of that sort, but it is the expenditure on the Services—the salaries of those employed, for instance—which come into consideration. Let him remember that there is one charge for the collection which does vary according to the amount of Revenue, and that is the charge for the collection of the Income Tax. If you have a high Income Tax, your expenditure on collection will be large, because the higher the amount to be collected the larger the percentage amounts to. But, then, all that brings you back to the question how far that is due to the policy of the Government? How came you to have this large charge in Income Tax? How came you to bring about this larger charge for collection? These are all matters which cannot be satisfactorily dealt with in the rough; and if we are really to go into a comparison of these matters, I say we ought to have that Committee of which we are continually hearing, but which we are never encouraged to see. I think this matter could be very fairly considered by a Committee. Certainly, I should be quite prepared to go into the Committee, with a vew of arguing fairly the question of these different kinds of expenditure, and of arguing the question to which the hon. Gentleman the Member for Wolverhampton refers—namely, the system of advances to meet local charges. I do not remember whether there was anything else in my noble Friend's speech upon which I need comment. I had intended to rise to make the observations I have made upon these two points—the collection of the Revenue, and the method of dealing with the Debt; but I was led further a field by the latter part of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman. I must say that that speech did not impress

  1901
  me with the conviction that the right hon. Gentleman was satisfied with the whole course of the policy of his Government in these matters. I thought there was a good deal more of the French proverb, "That a man who excuses himself, accuses himself," than was altogether comfortable to the right hon. Gentleman. There was no occasion to have gone so fully into the matter, and I do not wish now to raise any question with regard to the actual expenditure which is now proposed. It was a matter of necessity for the honour of the country that steps should be taken to rescue General Gordon. How General Gordon has got into the position in which he now finds himself, and how the Government have contracted obligations to him, are matters which will have to be very seriously answered by the Government. No matter what the answer is, it leaves the duty of the country as regards the provision that is to be made for General Gordon's rescue absolutely untouched. Therefore, I have no difficulty to raise in voting the funds which may be necessary, though I do feel the very great disadvantage of being asked to make a Vote of the character that is now asked for by the Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Childers)—breaking in through all the arrangements of the year at this inconvenient time, and at a time when I am afraid there is a great deal of distress in the country—breaking in with an irregular Budget, and making this demand upon the income of the country.
  SIR JOHN LUBBOCKsaid, that, as the noble Lord the Member for Middlesex (Lord George Hamilton) had specially referred to him, he should just like to say that he adhered to his previous statements, though it was unnecessary for him to defend them at length, because the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler) had so ably done it. He (Sir John Lubbock) regretted, as much as he possibly could, the large increases which had taken place in our National Expenditure; but he would like to remind the Committee when those increases began. For several years, up to 1874—the year of the accession to Office of the Conservative Government—there were but very small increases in our National Expenditure. They could hardly expect that there should be no increase; because, of course, there were certain automatic in
  1902
  creases like that on Education, which he was sure none of them regretted. But the great and remarkable increases in our National Expenditure began in 1874, and rose in the five years, from 1875 to 1880, by no less than £10,000,000. The nominal increase of Expenditure had in the gross in the last four years been £13,000,000. But, during the latter period, £5,000,000 more had been appropriated towards the repayment of Debt, and £3,000,000 or £4,000,000 had been increased expenditure on the Post Office, with reference to which he should say a word or two by-and-bye. There had also been a very considerable Grant in Aid, amounting in the four years to more than £3,000,000, for National Education. The present Government had paid £7,000,000 for the War Expenditure of their Predecessors. As far as he could make out, the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir Stafford Northcote) and his supporters incurred a War Expenditure of £12,000,000, of which they only paid £4,000,000; while the present Government had incurred a War Expenditure of £6,000,000, but they had paid off £13,000,000 of War Expenditure. That, also, had to be taken into consideration, when they were comparing the Expenditure of the two Governments. The right hon. Baronet who had just sat down referred at some length to the items for the collection of Revenue. But the main increase which had taken place there had been on the head of the Post Office. If they compared the year 1880 with last year, the increase was from £3,800,000 to £4,500,000, which was an increase of £700,000. But, then, what had been the difference in the receipts? The receipts, which were, in 1880, £6,300,000, had increased to £7,700,000, and, therefore, although there had been an increase of expenditure on the part of the Post Office of £700,000, there had been an increase of revenue under the same head of very nearly double that amount. If they compared the cost of collection of the Customs and Inland Revenue, they found there had been a very slight increase, and, in some years, even a decrease, under that head. As so much had turned this evening upon the question of economy, perhaps it would be well to take the last year of the Conservative Government, and contrast it with the year 1884. They would find that, in

  1903
  1884, the real Expenditure of the country had been almost exactly what it was in the last year of the Conservative Administration; but when they came to look into the different items, there was a very considerable difference. In 1880, the cost of collection was £2,700,000; but, so far from there being, in 1884, the increase which the right hon. Gentleman seemed to imagine, the cost had actually diminished to £2,679,000, so that there had been a certain economy. Well, then, under the head of Education the expenditure in 1880 was £3,400,000, and in 1884, £4,000,000. That was an increase of £600,000; but it was an increase which neither side of the House would complain of. Furthermore, the Grants in Aid were, in 1880, £4,980,000, and in 1884, £5,600,000, showing, under that head, an increase, which he deplored as much as the hon. Member for Wolverhampton did, and for which hon. Members opposite were mainly responsible, of upwards of £600,000. But, of course, whether they regretted it or not, that was not really an addition to the Expenditure of the country, but an amount provided for in one way instead of in another. The cost of the ordinary Civil Services had increased from £5,700,000 to £6,100,000; but when the Committee remembered how much additional expense was thrown on the country under the head of Civil Services in connection with the government of Ireland, he thought they could not wonder there had been that slight increase. The charge on account of Debt was £27,350,000 in 1880, and £28,190,000 in 1884; but that, of course, they all knew was not really part of the Expenditure of the country, but a diminution of the indebtedness of the country. And, then, lastly, the net amount for the Army and Navy was £28,500,000 in 1880, and £26,800,000 in 1884, showing, the Committee would see, a very considerable decrease in 1884 over 1880. He (Sir John Lubbock) thought the noble Lord the Member for Middlesex (Lord George Hamilton) would have done well if, instead of dealing with vague generalities, he had taken, for instance, the last year of the Conservative Administration and 1884, and shown the Committee where the present Government had been extravagant. He (Sir John Lubbock) had endeavoured to give to the Committee
  1904
  the figures for those two years, and, as far as he was able to judge, he thought the Expenditure of the present Government, looked at from that point of view—and he maintained it was a right one—would contrast favourably with the Expenditure of their Predecessors, though he must confess he was disappointed that more had not been done in this respect. But, after all, this was very much a question of policy. There were two distinct questions before them that evening—one, whether the Government had been economical in their Expenditure; and, the other, whether their policy had led to unnecessary Expenditure. He, for his part, regretted, as much as any hon. Member who had spoken, the great increase of Expenditure. How had it arisen? The origin of the Egyptian policy of the Government dated from the great meeting at Willis's Rooms, attended by the Leaders of the Opposition, and having reference to the Egyptian policy of Her Majesty's Government. The Expedition to the Soudan, which he always regretted, was almost forced on Her Majesty's Government by hon. Gentlemen opposite; and it was well known that all through the Recess Members of the Opposition had been urging upon the Government to interfere actively in Bechuanaland. Deeply as he deplored the great increase of our National Expenditure, he thought that, when the country came to consider the matter, they would arrive at the conclusion that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite were mainly responsible for the increase.
  MR. ONSLOWsaid, he had not intended taking part in the debate, and should not have done so had it not been for some remarks which had been made with reference to him by the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Gladstone). He desired to make a personal explanation. Somehow or other, whenever anyone opposite the Treasury Bench smiled at the Prime Minister's observations, the right hon. Gentleman always came down with a fell swoop of his oratory upon his (Mr. Onslow's) unfortunate head. In spite of that, he should always smile—as he had done that night—whenever the Prime Minister said something utterly ridiculous and monstrous. With all due deference to the Chairman, he (Mr. Onslow) had never interrupted the Prime Minister. He certainly laughed; but did

  1905
  not think he had interrupted the right hon. Gentleman in any way.
  MR. GLADSTONE: If the hon. Gentleman says that when he laughed he did not intend to interrupt me, I am quite willing to withdraw any reference I may have made to him. I certainly thought, however, that I had the best evidence of interruption on his part.
  THE CHAIRMAN: Since the hon. Gentleman has referred to a ruling of mine, I must say that he made a most disorderly interruption by calling out the name "Harcourt!" across the House. He did so in such an audible manner that I was obliged to call attention to the interruption.
  MR. ONSLOWsaid, that an hon. Gentleman behind him had called out "Harcourt! Harcourt!" and he (Mr. Onslow) had merely repeated it. He, however, was pitched upon—as was always the case—as if he was the only one smiling. He should continue, if he thought proper, to laugh at the assertions of the Prime Minister, especially when he contended that the failure of the foreign policy of Her Majesty's Government, and the Expenditure it entailed, was wholly owing to the Conservative Government, which preceded him in Office. The right hon. Gentleman stated that it was partly owing to the policy of his Predecessors in regard to Afghanistan that £4,500,000 was given to India; but the policy pursued by the right hon. Gentleman in handing over that money was entirely deprecated by the Conservative Party. The policy of Her Majesty's Government had nothing to do with the Afghan War at all. The Opposition said India did not require to be paid that money, and India never asked for it; but it was the policy of the Government to give it. The policy they pursued was diametrically opposed to that recommended by the Opposition. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had only come down on them for £1,000,000 for the present financial year; but he ought to let them know before the next financial year—before the next Budget, which would probably be in March—whether the Estimate would be exceeded or not. It appeared to him (Mr. Onslow) that the present financial proposal was not for the purpose of defraying this specific
  1906
  Expenditure of £1,000,000; but that a 2d. Income Tax might yield a certain amount, and the Estimate of the cost of the Expedition had been framed accordingly. He believed that a great deal more than £1,000,000 had already been spent, exclusive of the £300,000 voted last August; and he therefore thought the Committee and the country had a right to know the total amount which was likely to be spent on the Nile Expedition. It might be that the money asked for the Bechuanaland Expedition had not yet been spent; but some information ought to be given as to how much would be spent by next March on this Expedition to relieve General Gordon. The noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War (the Marquess of Hartington) had told them that the Expedition was not only to relieve General Gordon, but to establish a settled form of Government at Khartoum; and, that being so, it was obvious that it would entail a vast amount of expenditure upon this country, irrespective of the cost of the Expedition itself. The cost of keeping our troops in the Soudan whilst a settled form of Government was established would be very great. The hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands) was always preaching economy in Committee; but, whenever it came to a vote with the Speaker in the Chair, his vote was diametrically opposed to the opinions he had previously expressed. Though the hon. Gentleman was a great economist, and went in for economy all round, not even his capacity would be able to reduce the Expenditure which was going on at the present time. In his (Mr. Onslow's) opinion, the Expenditure of the country must go on increasing, whether it was in respect of Education, the Army, or the Navy. They would never get a reduction of Expenditure, no matter how many Committees were appointed to investigate the matter. With regard to Revenue, they never knew one year what was likely to happen the next, as a great deal depended upon the weather and the seasons. It was impossible to reckon upon the Revenue being elastic or expanding; but Expenditure must always go on increasing. He deprecated entirely the imposition of this £2,000,000 upon one class of taxpayers. It was a very easy thing for the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer

  1907
  to raise the sum on the Income Tax; he could do it with one stroke of his pen; and it was to be hoped that when the right hon. Gentleman, or whoever might succeed him in the meantime, came forward with his Budget next March, the extra expenditure caused by what was going on now would not be put entirely upon the shoulders of one class of taxpayers in the country.
  MR. WADDYsaid, he rose chiefly for the purpose of quoting a passage from a speech of the right hon. Baronet the Member for North Devon (Sir Stafford Northcote.) Both he and the noble Lord the Member for Middlesex (Lord George Hamilton) had stated that the principle adopted by the Prime Minister, in a speech he delivered in Edinburgh, in deducting the charges for the collection of Revenue, was "monstrously unfair." What he (Mr. Waddy) wished to do was to make a comparison between the views of the right hon. Baronet in Office, and those entertained by him out of Office. On the 20th of December, 1879, it so happened that the right hon. Baronet had to defend his own finance against an attack made upon it by the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister, then in Opposition. The right hon. Baronet quoted what bad been said about himself, and these were his words—and he (Mr. Waddy) was anxious that the Committee should compare the statement that night about "monstrous unfairness" with what he would proceed to read. The right hon. Baronet said—
  "Mr. Gladstone takes the Expenditure of the last year of his own Government and compares it with that of the published accounts of the complete year 1878–9 under the Conservative Government, and he does it in a very fair way, because he deducts on either side the cost of the charges of collecting the Revenue, and he gives a comparison of the net receipts only; and, so far, I have not a word to say against him."
  That was, word for word, exactly what was said by the right hon. Baronet, on the 20th of December, 1879, at Leeds, where he was endeavouring, as far as he could, to answer the terrible onslaught that had been shortly before made on him by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone). He (Mr. Waddy) did not propose, after what had been said that night, to enter into the general question. He would not allow himself to be tempted to do so by what was said by the hon. Gentleman who last spoke (Mr. Onslow)
  1908
  with reference to India. He would not go into the cause of the expenditure—the shameful breach of honour by the late Government, in first imposing a large taxation on the people of India, and pledging the honour of the country that the amount raised by that taxation should be spent in famine insurance, and then taking every penny of it, and spending it in gunpowder. He would remind the Committee of this, however—that the real mischief was not accounted for by the operation of Terminable Annuities. The real mischief was caused by the piling up by the late Government, during their term of Office, of the Unfunded Debt. If anyone would take the trouble to look into the matter, that would be found to account for everything. Reference to only four or five sets of figures would show exactly what he meant. When the late Government went into Office, in 1874, they found an Unfunded Debt of £4,500,000, and a balance in the Exchequer of £7,500,000. When they left Office that Unfunded Debt, which they found at £4,500,000, had risen to £27,000,000; and the balance in the Exchequer, which they found at £7,500,000, they had reduced to £3,000,000. It was, in reality, £2,273,000, because £1,000,000 they had borrowed, to put a better look on the matter, from the Bank of England. But, giving them the benefit of their own calculation, £3,000,000 was nearly the amount they left. Now, on the other hand, whilst the late Government had increased the Unfunded Debt from £4,500,000 to £27,000,000, the present Government had reduced it from £27,000,000 to £14,000,000, and had raised the balance in the Exchequer from £3,000,000 to £5,500,000. Whilst the late Government had been paying off Terminable Annuities on the one hand, they had been piling up the Unfunded Debt to a more than proportionate extent. [Mr. GORST: No, no!] Yes. It was impossible here, at that time, to go in detail through all the figures; but if the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. Gorst) would examine into the matter, he would find that the increase in the Unfunded Debt was the mischief wrought by the late Government. He (Mr. Waddy) knew very well that the Terminable Annuities were paying off Debt; but if the hon. and learned Gen

  1909
  tleman would compare the amount automatically paid off by one Government with that paid off by the other, and then look at the amount the Unfunded Debt had been increased by each, he would find the difference accounted for. [An hon. MEMBER: The local loans!] He was reminded of the local loans. The difference there—in the interest, because the capital did not come into the account, being accounted for in another way—was about £800,000 in favour of the present Government. As to the other question raised—the question of the Post Office and the Telegraphs—he would not add one single remark to what had been already said, except to give the figures for the four years not mentioned by the noble Lord opposite (Lord George Hamilton). The Post Office and Telegraph receipts from 1877 to 1880 were £30,000,000, while for the years from 1881 to 1884 they were £35,000,000. It was true there had been an additional expenditure of £3,750,000, or nearly; but in that there had been £500,000 extra expenditure, or something of that kind, in respect of the Parcel Post, and the profit had been £1,570,000 odd. That was extremely good business; and, therefore, it was right to deduct it in the way that was so satisfactory to the right hon. Baronet in 1879, but which now he had discovered, in some way or other, to be "monstrously unfair."
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS): I think, Sir, the time has now come when I ought to answer one or two questions put to me by the various hon. Members who have spoken, and the challenge rather pointedly addressed to me. I will do so in as few words as I possibly can. The right hon. Baronet the Member for North Devon (Sir Stafford Northcote) asked me pointedly—and his question was repeated by the hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Onslow)—Are we asking enough provision in this Estimate? For an answer to that I would refer the Committee to the statement made by my noble Friend the Secretary of State for War (the Marquess of Hartington) the other day, on the Votes for Bechuanaland and the Soudan. He then stated that he believed it might possibly be found that, as to the Soudan, we might want something more; but that, as to Bechuana
  1910
  land, it was a full Estimate; and, taking the two together, he believed we had asked enough. The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Chatham (Mr. Gorst) made a calculation by which he arrived at £300,000 as the sum by which, according to me, the original Estimate of Revenue will be exceeded—and asked me whether I hope that the Revenue will be increased by that amount. Another hon. Member made it £250,000. Well, I decline to give an exact figure. I think there will be a moderate increase in the receipts; and if it is one-quarter per cent on the whole amount, it will be not far from the sum that the hon. Gentleman names. The noble Lord opposite (Lord George Hamilton) drew the attention of the Committee to certain figures for the purpose of comparing the Expenditure of the present Government during the past four years with the Expenditure of the late Government during the previous four years. In reply to the noble Lord, I will refer the Committee to the annual Return of the net Expenditure of the country charged on the taxes, which has been frequently declared by the Treasuries of both political Parties to afford the sound basis of comparison between different years. For this year it is No. 273 of last Session. On pages 2, 3, 4, and 5 the Return shows that the whole charge on the taxpayer between April, 1880, and March, 1884, amounted to £283,000,000; while the whole charge on the taxpayer in the four years 1876–80 amounted to £275,000,000. There was thus an increase of £8,000,000 in the years 1880–4; but that increase is explained in the following way:—We have spent £2,000,000 more on Education, £3,400,000 more in Votes in aid of Local Taxation, and £4,500,000 as a contribution to India. What we have paid off of Debt in hard money amounts to £14,000,000 more than what was paid off in the four years preceding our accession to Office. These sums come together to £23,900,000—that is to say, nearly £16,000,000 more than the increase of charge. Further, I would remind the House that, although it is true that we have had to raise more taxation in those four years, we have had to do so in order to meet not only our own Expenditure, but the deficits of the three previous years, amounting to £7,300,000. I hope that hon. Gentle

  1911
  men who really care to obtain accurate figures as to recent expenditure will observe that we spent upon the Army and Navy, in the four years ending March, 1884, £101,800,000, while the net charge in the preceding four years was £101,500,000. The net cost of the Civil Services in 1880–4 was £24,500,000, and in 1876–80, £23,000,000. Anyone who takes the pains may verify these figures from the Return I have named.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolved, That, towards raising the Supply granted to Her Majesty, in addition to the Duties of Income Tax granted by "The Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1884," there shall be charged, collected, and paid for the year which commenced on the sixth day of April, one thousand eight hundred and eighty-four, in respect of all Property, Profits, and Gains mentioned or described as chargeable in the Act of the sixteenth and seventeenth years of Her Majesty's reign, chapter thirty-four, the following Duties of Income Tax (that is to say):
  For every Twenty Shillings of the annual value or amount of Property, Profits, and Gains chargeable under Schedules (A), (C), (D), or (E) of the said Act, the Duty of One Penny;
  And for every Twenty Shillings of the annual value of the occupation of Lands, Tenements, Hereditaments, and Heritages chargeable under Schedule (B) of the said Act, the Duty of One Halfpenny;
  1912
  Provided always, That, with the view of securing the additional Duties and affording the proper rights of deduction in respect thereof in the case of Dividends, Interest, or other annual sums due or payable half-yearly or quarterly in the course of the said year, where one of the half-yearly payments or two of the quarterly payments shall have been made, the other half-yearly payment or quarterly payments shall be charged with the additional Duty of Two Pence for every Twenty Shillings of the amount thereof; and where three of the quarterly payments shall have been made, the other quarterly payment shall be charged with the additional Duty of Four Pence for every Twenty Shillings of the amount thereof.
  Provided also, That the charge under this Resolution shall be deemed to be satisfied by an addition of one-fifth of the amount of the Duties assessed under "The Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1884," to such amount, and payment of such addition therewith.
  Resolution to be reported upon Wednesday.
  Committee to sit again upon Wednesday.

  WAYS AND MEANS.—COMMITTEE.

    ADJOURNMENT.
    House at its rising to adjourn till Wednesday.
    House adjourned at half after Eight o'clock till Wednesday.