Commons Sitting of 17 March 1884

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Charitable Trust Acts, appointed.
SUPPLY—considered in Committee—ARMY ESTIMATES, 1884–5.
Resolutions[March 10, 13, 14, 15] reported.
WAYS AND MEANS—considered in Committee—£1,384,655 14 s. 10 d. Consolidated Fund.
PRIVATE BILL (by Order)—Second Reading—Folkestone, Sandgate, and Hythe Tramways.*
PUBLIC BILLS—Ordered—First Reading—Isle of Man (Harbours) *,[138]: Royal Courts of Justice * [139].
Second Reading— Revision of Jurors and Voters Lists (Dublin County) * [124].

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
  CORK BUTTER MARKET BILL.

    SECOND READING.
    Order for Second Reading read.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
    MR. MOOREsaid, the Bill was one which affected a very large number of persons in Ireland, and its object was to put an end to certain grievous abuses connected with the Cork Butter Market. Those a buses were chiefly in the matter of inspection—and inspection in reference to the export of butter was a question of great importance to the Province of Minister. A very strong recommendation had been made against those abuses by the Richmond Commission. He had no desire to oppose the second reading of the Bill, but only on the clear understanding that the provisions of the measure would be modified in accordance with Lord Fitzgerald's award. The Bill, as circulated to Members, had not been so modified; but he had had placed in his hand by one of the agents a copy of it which had been so altered in accordance with that award. With that award the House was not concerned; but he had written to the right hon. Gentleman the Chairman of "Ways and Moans stating that, on the understanding that the Cork Butter Market Bill be amended as proposed, he would allow the second reading to pass without opposition. He believed it would be found that, under the award of Lord Fitzgerald, the terms of the Bill would be beneficial to the producer, and nothing loss would be satisfactory. He gladly accepted Lord Fitzgerald's award; and, under the circumstances, he would not move the Instruction to the Select
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    Committee which he had placed upon the Paper.
    MR. HEALYsaid, he was glad to hear that the hon. Member for Clonmel (Mr. Moore) had not any present intention to oppose the Bill. He must say that personally, he regarded the Bill with the Amendments engrafted on it by Lord Fitzgerald as an excellent Bill, and he thought Lord Fitzgerald was to be congratulated on the important work he had done in the interest of all parties. He thought the award was most creditable to his Lordship, and most creditable to the Corporation, and to all parties interested in Cork—first and foremost that Lord Fitzgerald had taken the trouble he had done to go into the question; and, secondly, it was satisfactory that the City of Cork, with interests so divergent, should have agreed and have submitted to the award of a noble Lord so distinguished and so disinterested as Lord Fitzgerald. He trusted that all parties would be prepared to abide by the award. With regard to the Instruction which the hon. Member for Clonmel had proposed to move, he understood that it was postponed, at any rate, for the present. He further understood that a copy of the Amendments had been engrafted on the Bill; and, as far as one of them was concerned, that the promoters were prepared to insert, upon page 4, a provision declaring that whereas the principal object to be obtained was increased facilities for the sale of butter in the market, careful and impartial inspection and classification would be secured. He was of opinion that if that provision was inserted, and careful and impartial inspection and classification were carried out loyally by the Trustees, a great deal of good would have been accomplished. But, at the same time, he would rejoice if the Trustees came to an agreement not to impose fines. He would not, however, go into the subject at present; but he would only congratulate the Corporation of Cork and Lord Fitzgerald on the Bill as it had been amended, and he hoped the result would be to restore Cork butter to the position it had previously occupied in the markets of the world.
    Motion agreed to.
    Bill read a second time, and committed.

QUESTIONS.

  LAW AND POLICE (SCOTLAND)—CASE OF THREATENING LETTER WRITING AT ROUSAY—FREDERICK LEONARD.
  DR. CAMERONasked the Lord Advocate, With reference to the case of Frederick Leonard, a boy of 14, examined by the Procurator Fiscal of Orkney as a witness in. The Rousay threatening letter case, who, after the conclusion of his regular precognition, was asked to give a specimen of his writing, as explained, for his own exoneration; whether his attention has been called to the boy's version of the occurrence, that he was directed to write expressions apparently taken from the threatening letter; and, whether he has any objection to produce the Document written by Leonard after the conclusion of his regular precognition?
  THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR): Sir, the words and expressions which Frederick Leonard was requested to write were for the most part taken from the threatening letter. This was plainly the proper course when the question had boon whether he was the writer of that letter, and the Fiscal desired to preserve evidence for the boy's exoneration of the soundness of the conclusion at which he had arrived, that the letter had not been written by the boy. I have he objection to lay a copy of the document written by Leonard on the Table of the House, if this desired, and to exhibit the principal to any hon. Member who may wish to see it.

VACCINATION ACTS (PROSECUTIONS) —MR. J. A. PETVIN.
MR. HOPWOODasked the President of the Local Government Board, Whether he is aware that, in the case of J. A. Petvin, already summoned three times, twice convicted in full penalties, and three times condemned in costs in respect of refusal to vaccinate his child, notwithstanding the Local Government Board, by his direction in August last, sent a copy of his Evesham letter in relation to a prosecution then pending against Mr. Petvin, deprecating such repeated prosecutions to the Guardians of the Axbridge Union, that body has
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ordered a fresh prosecution against Mr. Petvin in respect of the same child; and, whether the Local Government Board will signify to the Guardians, decidedly, its disapproval of such prosecution?
MR. GEORGE RUSSELL: Sir, the convictions of J. A. Petvin were in respect of the non-vaccination of a child named Annie Petvin. The Local Government Board are informed that there has. been no prosecution in the case of that child since 1882. and that no further proceedings are contemplated. The Guardians have, however, ordered proceedings in the case of another child of Mr. Petvin, an order for the vaccination; of the child which was made in August, 1883, not having been complied with.
MR. HOPWOOD: Do the Local Government Board, then, approve of further prosecutions in respect of another child?
MR. GEORGE RUSSELL: The: Board do not disapprove of repeated prosecutions in regard to another child in the same way that they disapprove of repeated prosecutions in respect of the same child.

VALUATIONS (IRELAND).
MR. W. J. CORBETasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, If he will inquire into the circumstances under which Mr. Bell, revising valuer, struck off 100 acres of land from the valuation of Patrick Devine, a tenant on the Duke of Abercorn's property, county Tyrone; whether Mr. Bell had previously visited the land, or consulted the Rate Collector or Board of Guardians; whether the revision was made by him in the Duke's rent office; ether Mr. Ball Greene, the head of the Valuation Department, sent down another revising officer to examine into the case; and, whether a revision has been made on the Gweedore estate of Lord George Hill, in which the valuation of land has been raised?
MR. COURTNEY: Sir, I have inquired into the circumstances of this case. In 1881 or 1882 Mr. Bell, it appears, having received certain information from the estate office, visited the land held by Devine, and made the alteration mentioned in the Question. Subsequently a dispute and a considerable conflict as to the facts are se, whereupon the old arrangement was ordered to be restored. No case has been discovered of any change in the Gweedore estate.

CUSTOMS DEPARTMENT—CUSTOM HOUSE AT KINGSTON.
MR. LODERasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether it is not the case that there is now a Custom House conveniently situated and in close proximity to the Railway station at Shoreham, holden for an unexpired term of three years at a rent of eighty guineas per annum; and, whether it is true that it is the intention of the Government immediately to erect another Custom House at Kingston at a distance of upwards of a mile from the station, and why?
MR. COURTNEY: Sir, in order to follow a change in the course of trade the head office of the Customs has been removed from Shoreham to Kingston. This rendered the present Custom House at Shoreham superfluous, but necessitated additional accommodation at Kingston. The new building at the latter place will take about a year to finish, and the lease of the present one expires in 1886, so that we are not in danger of having both on our hands at once for any appreciable time.

PARLIAMENT—PRIVILEGE—"BRADLAUGH v. GOSSET"—SHORTHAND NOTES.
MR. LABOUCHEREasked Mr. Attorney General, Whether shorthand notes were taken of the argument and judgments in the case of Bradlaugh v. Gosset; and, whether he will lay them upon the Table of the House?
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES), in reply, said, it had not been the practice to lay Copies of shorthand notes on the Table of the House, as that would entail great expense. The matter, however, was entirely in the hands of the House. With regard to the notes in the case of "Bradlaugh v. Gosset," perhaps it would be sufficient if the hon. Member was allowed to see them.
MR. LABOUCHERE: Will the Attorney General allow Mr. Bradlaugh to see them?
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENBY JAMBS): Well, I have said what I have said.

THE SUEZ CANAL.
SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFFasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whe-
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ther, at the meeting of the Suez Canal Company held at Paris on Wednesday the 12th of March, the arrangement was confirmed by which seven new English Directors are to be added to the Council of Administration; and, if not, whether Her Majesty's Government are in any way bound to consider the rest of the new arrangement as conclusive and binding?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS): I have conferred with the official Directors of the Suez Canal Company, and they inform me that the Report of the President of the Company embodying the agreement between M. de Lesseps and the Association of Shipowners Trading with the East was approved at the meeting on the 12th instant. One of the articles of that agreement is in the following words:—
"In addition to the three Directors designated by the English Government, seven new Directors, chosen from among English, shipowners and merchants, shall at once he admitted as members of the Board. In order to confer upon these seven Directors the power of voting, which attaches to the present Directors, the Administration will propose to the shareholders to modify the statutes, and to revert to the figure at first fixed for the number of Directors—namely, 32. In the meantime, and until the necessary formalities shall be accomplished, the Administration will invite these seven Directors, as soon as they have been chosen, to be present at the meetings of the Board."
For the alteration of the statutes contemplated by this article, a separate vote was required. The proposal to modify the statutes in this respect was adjourned, a quorum not being present; and until that proposal has been put to the shareholders I can say nothing.
SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFFsaid, he wanted to know whether, pending the alteration, these new Directors would have the right of voting at the Board; whether, in fact, they would not be there merely as shareholders; and, further, whether it was not a fact that existing statutes could only be altered by a vote of two-thirds of the shareholders present; and whether, in case two-thirds of the shareholders did not consent, the remainder of the agreement would hold good?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS): I cannot answer the last Question, and can only reply as to matters of fact. I have already informed the hon. Gentleman that the

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seven new Directors would be at once admitted as members of the Board; but in order to confer upon them the power of voting, the Administration proposes to modify the statutes. I believe a vote of two-thirds will be necessary, but that does not appear on the report of the proceeding.
SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFFsaid, it was impossible to get an intelligible answer from the right hon. Gentleman. He wished to know whether the new Directors would be legal Directors of the Company until the statutes were altered, and whether till that was done the Resolution he had laid before the House would be of any avail?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS): I have answered that as plainly as possible. Surely the hon. Gentleman could not have heard inc. Shall I read the extract again?
SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF: I heard you.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS)then re-read a portion of his answer, and added—Of course they have not the power to vote.
SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF: They have not?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS): No.

STATE OF IRELAND—MEETINGS OF THE NATIONAL LEAGUE—INTRUSION OF THE POLICE.
MR. SEXTONasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, in view of his statement that the police are instructed not to persist in remaining at indoor meetings of the National League if the meeting object to their presence, Whether, on Sunday the 9th instant, Acting-Sergeant M'Guire entered the meeting place of the Sovey (county Sligo) branch of the National League, while the members of the branch were engaged in the transaction of their business, and, being informed by the chairman that the meeting objected to his presence, replied that he would not leave until removed by force, and dared those present to lay hands upon him; whether the secretary objected to this observation of Acting-Sergeant M'Guire, and asked him if he had instructions from his superiors to insist upon remaining; whether he replied that he had such instructions from his officer; whether the acting-sergeant re-
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mained until after the meeting had concluded; whether any intimation as to his conduct will be conveyed to him; and, what steps will be taken to restrain police constables from provoking breaches of the peace, by interfering with persons engaged in the exorcise of their legal rights?
MR. TREVELYAN, in reply, said, it was true that Police Sergeant M'Guire, accompanied by a constable, seeing the door open, entered the house in which this meeting was being held, and found about 20 persons assembled. The sergeant did not remain in the room; but as soon as he was informed that the room had been rented from the owner for the purpose of holding meetings of the National League, he withdrew outside

ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY—THE PHŒNIX PARK DEPOT.
MR. SEXTONasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If there are at present in the Constabulary Depôt, Phoenix Park, 450 men, of whom 300 are Catholics and 150 Protestants; whether, of the 12 cadets now acting as officers at the depôt, not one is a Catholic; whether the Catholic men have no Catholic officer to march them to Mass on Sundays and holidays; whether there has been no Catholic cadet at the Depôt for the last three years; whether the District Inspectors of the Constabulary throughout Ireland are drawn from the cadets at the Depôt; and, whether three Protestant cadets were admitted to the Depôt, a few days since, without examination, one of them, Mr. Penrose, being a gentleman whose family had rendered services to the Tory candidate in the recent election for the city of Cork?
MR. TREVELYANsaid, there were 680 men at the Constabulary depôt, of whom 421 were Roman Catholics and 259 Protestants. There were nine young officers, all of whom were Protestants. The Roman Catholic men were marched to church by a Roman Catholic officer. Six Roman Catholic cadets had been passed through the depôt in the past three years. The District Inspectors were drawn from the cadets, except those promoted from the ranks, of whom there were 19 during the last three years, nine of these being Roman Catholics. Three Protestant cadets in the month of January passed the prescribed examina-

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tion, one of them being Mr. Penrose; and the suggestion that his appointment: had any connection with the subsequent City of Cork Election has no foundation, as he was nominated on the 19th June,. and he was selected cut of a large number of other candidates by competitive examination conducted by the Civil Service.

THE ROYAL UNIVERSITY OF IRELAND.
VISCOUNT CRICHTONasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, How many Methodists are now in the Senate of the Royal University of Ireland; whether Dr. Scott, the Principal of the Methodist College in Belfast, was an original Member of the Senate, and continued a Member until his death; why a Methodist gentleman was not appointed in his place; and, whether there are in Ireland many Methodist gentlemen eminently qualified for that position?
MR. TREVELYAN: Sir, there is one Wesleyan Methodist on the Senate of the Royal University now. THE late Dr. Scott was, as slated, a member of the Senate, and continued a member until his death. No doubt, there are many Wesleyan gentleman qualified to occupy the position; but in tilling the vacancy the Government did not feel bound to appoint a gentleman of the same denomination. In making the appointment, the Irish Government paid careful regard to the proportion of the several denominations of the population of Ireland.
VISCOUNT CRICHTON: I be to give Notice that I will call attention to this matter.

ARMY-RECRUITING.
COLONEL CLIVEasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether the "preliminary Annual Return, which will shortly be issued," alluded to in the footnote on page o of the Annual Report of the Inspector General of Recuiting, dated 28th February 1884, will contain information as to the age, height, and weight of recruits enlisted in 1883, in continuation of Appendix C of the Report of the Inspector General of Recruiting, dated 1st March 1883; or, if not, in what form will this important information be given this year?
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: Sir, the preliminary Annual Return will show the ages of recruits passed into the Service in 1883. The statistics relative to their height and weight will not be ready at the time the preliminary Return is issued. It will, however, contain a statement of the height and chest measurement of men serving in the Army at home on the 1st of January, 1884. It is not practicable, under present arrangements, to give detailed statistics concerning the men enlisted in a year so soon after its close as the period when the Inspector General of Recruiting reports; and the information on these heads given in his Report of the 1st of March, 1883, did not refer to a later year than 1881. The information is always given in the Annual Report of the Army Medical Department, which is presented to Parliament later in the year; but I will endeavour to make arrangements so that in future years the preliminary Annual Return shall contain the particulars to which the hon. and gallant Member refers.

EGYPT-THE RIOTS AT ALEXANDRIA —INDEMNITY CLAIMS.
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether, seeing that the original promise of the Khedive to compensate the losses at Alexandria was carefully limited to the principle of doing so "to a just degree compatible with the resources of the Country," either the Egyptian or the British Government have since given any pledge that the indemnities (amounting to upwards of four millions sterling) which the representatives of the various communities at Alexandria have awarded to one another, shall be paid in full, without regard to the circumstances and necessities of the Country, if the money can in any way be found; whether consequently, if a largo new loan should really be raised, by far the greater part of it must go to these compensations; and, whether the following published telegram is true:—
"Cairo, March, I3th, evening This afternoon the French and Italian Diplomatic Agents sent an identical note to the Minister for Foreign Affairs demanding the payment of the claims awarded by the International Indemnity Commission?
LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: No pledge to pay the indemnities in full has been given. I cannot at present make any statement in regard to the financial situation of Egypt. No information of the character indicated by the hon. Gentleman has been received at the Foreign Office.

MARRIAGE WITH A DECEASED WIFE'S SISTER.
MR. BROADHURSTasked Mr. Attorney General, Whether his attention has been called to a letter, in The Daily News of the 10th instant, signed "A High Church Rector;" whether, as that letter indicates, it is possible for a person, married, while properly domiciled in the Australian Colonies, to the sister of his former wife, under the sanction of Laws solemnly ratified by the Queen in Council, to freely set aside his contract of marriage on landing in this Country, desert his children, and marry again: and, whether a person so acting would, on his return to Australia, again become the lawful husband of the repudiated wife, or render himself liable to prosecution for bigamy in respect of the marriage contracted in England?
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES): Sir, I think there has been some misunderstanding on the subject referred to in this Question. I understand the law to be that if persons who are domiciled in a Colony where marriage with a deceased wife's sister is valid in effect, such a marriage is valid and fully recognized in this country. with, however, the qualification that the children of such a marriage would not inherit real property by descent in this country.

RAILWAYS (IRELAND;—RAILWAY AND CANAL RATES.—LEGISLATION.
MR. KENNY (for Mr. O'SULLIVAN)asked the President of the Board of Trade, Whether the Government intend introducing a Bill this Session to carry out the recommendation of the Select Committee on Railway and Canal Rates and Charges, who reported to the House in 1882?
MR. CHAMBERLAIN: Sir, I answered the same Question the other day in reply to the hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. Gabbett). Any Bill introduced by the Government will be founded in part
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on the recommendation of the Select Committee of 1882.

POST OFFICE—TELEGRAPHIC COMMUNICATION BETWEEN SCOTLAND AND ENGLAND.
MR. BUCHANANasked the Postmaster General, Whether his attention has been called to the serious interruptions to telegraphic communication between Scotland and England that frequently occur, from the want of protection of the wires from storms; and. whether he will take into consideration the propriety of introducing an underground system of wires, at least on the more exposed parts of the line, so as to obviate the great commercial inconvenience caused by interruptions in the service?
MR. FAWCETT: Sir, interruptions of telegraphic communication between Scotland and England have been frequently under consideration. They have not occurred in any particular locality, but have been experienced in various parts of the country traversed by the several main lines of telegraph between London and Scotland. The placing of any one section of the lines underground would not, therefore, insure immunity from interruption, while the cost of substituting underground wires for over-ground throughout the United Kingdom, or even between the principal town, would be very great, probably not less than £1,750,000.

PARLIAMENT—BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE—FINANCIAL STATEMENT.
SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether he proposes to introduce the Budget before Easter?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS): It is, Sir, a little early to fix absolutely the day for opening the Budget; but I hope to do so before Easter, and probably on Monday, the 7th of April, provided that the Franchise Bill has been read a second time.

ARMY—COLONIAL GARRISONS—CONTRIBUTIONS.
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Why the following Colonies, which are in no degree mere Military posts, are not called on to contribute anything whatever towards the cost of British Troops

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Maintained in them, viz. Newfoundland, Jamaica, Windward and Leeward islands, and Cape of Good Hope; why Natal, an exposed Colony, very expensive to the Mother Country, with a large and increasing Revenue now exceeding £800,000, great part of which is due to Imperial expenditure, is called on to contribute no more than £4,000; and, why the rich Island of Ceylon, which exists with a very small force practically under the protection of the neighbouring Indian Army, has now been excused a large proportion of the amount properly due, on the ground of inability to pay, while India has been compelled to pay, in the very worst times, by means of loans and extraordinary taxation?
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: Sir, on behalf my right hon. Friend, I beg to say that where a garrison exists for Imperial purposes at a coaling station abroad no contribution is asked. At all other stations where the Imperial Revenues are subjected to a charge on account of military expenditure, a contribution by the Colony ought undoubtedly to be made; but in many cases circumstances render it inexpedient or impracticable to enforce the contribution. As the hon. Member intends to draw attention to this subject on the Army Estimates, it would perhaps be better to defer any further statement upon the matter.

LAW AND JUSTICE—THE SPRING ASSIZES.
MR. STANLEY LEIGHTONasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether it is with his sanction that the judges have so rearranged the places for holding the Spring Criminal Assizes that prisoners will, in some cases, be taken from their own county, through four other counties, to a town over one hundred miles from their own homes to be tried; whether, since such a change of venue may amount, practically, to a denial to them of the means of defence, he will propose any allowance of money to such prisoners to enable them to procure the attendance of their attorneys and witnesses; and, whether he will propose any deduction from the sum allowed for travelling expenses to the Circuit judges, which will be largely diminished by the arrangements which they themselves have made?
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT, in reply, said, the arrangements made by the Judges for holding the Spring Criminal Assizes were similar to those which had existed for some years past.

KGYPT (AFFAIRS Of THE SOUDAN)— THE RED SEA PORTS.
BARON HENRY DE WORMSasked the Secretary of State for War, with reference to the announcement to the effect that it is not intended to hold any of the Red Sea Ports except Suakin, and that with regard to that other arrangements may ultimately be made, What are the other arrangements which Her Majesty's Government propose to make with regard to Suakin; and, whether, in view of the declared intention of the Government, to the effect that it is essential that the British Government should take care that these ports are held either by a civilised Power or by one under the influence of a civilised Power, and that British interests demand that no European Power should have a port on the Red Sea, there is any truth in the report that Her Majest's Government propose to hand over the Red Sea Littoral to the Porte?
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: Sir, I do not think I said, and I certainly did not mean to say, that it was intended to hold any of the Red Sea ports, including Suakin, or that it was intended not to hold any of them with the exception of Suakin. What I said, or, if did not say it, certainly what I ought to have said, was that the Government had always announced their intention from the very earliest stage to assist the Egyptian Government in the protection of the Red Sea ports and the coasts of the Red Sea. With regard to the last part of the hon. Gentleman's Question, the Government have made no proposal to hand over the Red Sea ports to the Porte. Of course, I am aware that suggestion has been discussed; but I do not think it would be advisable or convenient for me at the present moment to give any answer as to the intentions of the Government with regard to that or to any proposals which may have been suggested.

ASSAM AND CACHAR—GROG SHOPS.
MR. MACFARLANEasked the Under Secretary of State for India, If he will cause to be prepared, and lay upon the

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Table, a Return showing the increase in the number of grog shops in the districts of Assam and Cachar during the last ten years, the Return to include the remonstrances made by the European managers of tea gardens and the Minutes of the Chief Commissioners of these districts upon the subject?
MR. J. K. CROSS, in reply, said, he could not find that there had been any increase in the number of grop shops in Assam and Cachar in the last 10 years. During the five years ended 1874 the number of shops averaged 276; in 1881–2 they were, 233; in 1882–3, 232. There would be no objection to give the turn asked for by the hon. Member, including what Correspondence the Government had on the subject.

EGYPT—JUDICIAL REFORM.
MR. GUY DAWNAYasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether his attention has been drawn to the account given by the Cario Correspondent of The Standard, in the issue of March 13th, of the failure of the attempts at judicial reform in Egypt, in which it is stated—
"The new tribunals cannot indeed be said to work at all. but, as far as I can learn, they have not tried a dozen oases since their establisement. Out of 3,000 prisoners awaiting trial some. 1,200 have been in gaol over six months, and some as much as five years, without trial, on charges of theft, for which, if convicted, the maximum punishment would he three months. No attempts, however, seem to be made to clear off the terrible arrears, or to effect a gaol delivery;"
and, whether he will cause an inquiry to be made into the truth of this statement?
LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: Sir, there is no reason to believe that there has been failure in the attempt at judicial reform in Egypt. The hon. Gentleman will find at pages 47, 49, and 67 of "Egypt, No. 1, 1884." a description of measures which had been taken with a view to a general gaol delivery, and Sir Evelyn Baring has been instructed to report how far these measures have been successful.

SCOTLAND—SALE OF NEWSPAPERS AT WAVERLEY RAILWAY STATION, EDINBURGH—ALLEGED ILL-USAGE OF CHILDREN BY RAILWAY OFFICIALS.
MR. HEALYasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whe-
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ther he recently received a demand for inquiry, by Ex-Councillor Reid, Edinburgh, in regard to the treatment of children selling newspapers at Waverley Station; whether he read the statements forwarded to him, from twenty children of both sexes, as to the attacks made upon them in the exercise of their calling; and, whether any notice was taken of the subject by the police authorities?
THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR): Mr. Reid's communication was received, and full inquiry made into the allegation which it contained—the boys and girls said to have been maltreated, as well as the railway officials, and others likely to be able to give information, having been examined. The young persons mentioned a number of specific instances—the dates of which, however, they were unable to state—on which they say they were subjected to rough usage, and their newspapers taken from them, but neither they nor their friends lodged any complaint with the police. The railway officials, on the other hand, deny having assaulted or struck any of these young persons, but say that they cause much inconvenience both to the public and to the officials in discharging their duty, and that the young persons have not infrequently been taken before the Police Court for contravention of the Company's bye-laws, and there fined or admonished. If any charge of maltreatment is made to the police when it occurs it will be duly investigated.

EGYPT (RE-ORGANIZATON)-NATIVE EMPLOYES DISMISSED.
MR. LABOUCHEREasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether it is contemplated to give the Egyptian employés who have been dismissed, owing to the suggestions of Sir Evelyn Baring, such compensation as, under similar circumstances, would be granted to Government employés in this Country; and, whether it is a fact that when, on the appointment of Mr. Clifford Lloyd, it was doomed desirable to relieve a French gentleman, in the service of Egypt, who would have been senior to Mr. Lloyd, of his post and salary, this gentleman was granted a large retiring pension, and another French gentleman was appointed, who was thus Mr. Lloyd's

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junior, and who is to receive the salary of his predecessor?
LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: Sir, the question of the Pension List is one of those which form part of the general financial question into which I cannot at present enter. Mr. Clifford Lloyd was appointed Under Secretary of State at the Ministry of Who Interior in the place of a Native official, who was transferred to another post. We have no knowledge of any further changes, or of any retirements consequent on Mr. Lloyd's appointment.

ARMY—THE FIRST ARMY CORPS.
MR. TOTTENHAMasked the Secretary of State for War, If it is the fact that two Battalions of the East Surrey and Royal Irish Regiments embarked last month for the Mediterranean with a nominal effective roll of 1695 privates, out of which 773 were recruits of less than a year's service, and 519 of whom had never fired a shot or been through a course of musketry instruction; whether these Battalions formed part of the first line and First Army Corps, and were pronounced by the Military authorities thoroughly efficient and fit for service abroad or in the field; whether the remaining Battalion of the Brigade, of which those formed a part, is a Battalion of the Dorsetshire Regiment, 335 men under its proper strength, and numbering only 515 privates out of an establishment of 850, and 262 of these recruits of less than a year's service; whether these Battalions are fair specimens of the state of efficiency of those belonging to the First Army Corps; and, if it is the case that some Battalions now serving at home have more noncommissioned officers than privates fit for duty?
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: Sir, I must refer the hon. Member to previous replies, in which I have declined, and have stated my reasons for declining, to give the constitution of particular regiments. I may, however, say, generally, that it has not yet been possible to give full effect to the measures contemplated by my Predecessor for bringing the battalions in the First Army Corps into a state of complete efficiency. It is part of the arrangements for the First Army Corps that battalions do not send out drafts if their battalions abroad are within 12 months of being relieved;
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but in the present instance, owing to the general deficiency last year of men in India, and from the necessity of maintaining the strength of the Army there, all men available for drafts were sent out irrespective of the position on the roster of the battalions shortly to be relieved. It resulted, in the case of the battalions quoted by the hon. Member, that they sent abnormally largo drafts to India, and had to replace them by recruits very nearly to the number quoted by him.
MR. TOTTENHAMgave Notice that he would call attention to the matter further on the Motion to go into Committee of Supply.

FRANCHISE (IRELAND)—POPULATION —INHABITED HOUSES, &c. RETURNS.
MR. TOTTENHAMasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether any Return laid before Parliament contains the present numbers of inhabited houses in the various counties and boroughs in Ireland returning Members to Parliament, classified according to their various rateable values; whether the Return ordered by the House of Lords, on the 7th February, would contain such information; whether the Government will take the necessary steps to insure that the House shall have more information as to the character of the inhabited houses in the various counties and boroughs in Ireland before proceeding with the consideration of the Franchise Bill; and, why the preparation of a Return bearing on proposed legislation is not pushed forward with all possible speed?
MR. TREVELYAN: Sir, I am not aware that any Return on this subject has been already laid on the Table of the House; but a Return giving the information indicated in the Question was obtained on the 7th of July, and its preparation is being pressed forward as rapidly as possible.
MR. HEALY: Upon this matter may I ask whether this is the Return obtained by the House of Lords in opposition to the wishes of the Government; whether the Government intends to ask the House of Commons for a Vote to pay for this Return; and will the Return be prepared before the House of Commons has an opportunity of saying whether they will vote the money or not?
MR. TOTTENHAM: Will the second reading of the Franchise Bill be taken before this Return is laid on the Table?
MR. COURTNEY: As the hon. Member for Monaghan (Mr. Healy) is aware an additional Vote to pay for this Return has boon placed on the Estimates.
MR. HEALY: But can the Secretary to the Treasury give the House of Commons any guarantee that no money will be spent in preparing this Return until the House of Commons has passed the money?
MR. COURTNEYsaid, that the special Tote would be taken in ordinary course, and in that case it would not be necessary to take it very soon. The Vote on Account which would be asked for must, however, be taken shortly.
MR. ARTHUR ARNOLD: What will be the amount of the Tote on Account in reference to this matter?
MR. COURTNEY: I cannot say now. The figures will be furnished when the Vote is asked.
MR. ARTHUR ARNOLD: Will it be £500?
MR. COURTNEY: I really cannot say.
MR. ARTHUR ARNOLD: I beg to give Notice that I will move the reduction of the Vote by the amount asked for to cover the expenses of this Return.

ARMY (EXPEDITIONARY FORCE TO THE SOUDAN—SMALL ARMS—CUTLASSES AND BYONETS.
MR. TOMLINSONasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether he has any reason to apprehend that there is any foundation for the following statement in The Daily Telegraph, as made by their reporter at the late battle:—
"I again noticed the poor quality of the steel wrought into cutlasses and bayonets fur the soldier. If those weapons touched a bone they bent like hoop-iron, without piercing the body of the Arabs;"
and, whether he will request General Graham to make a report on the subject?
SIR HERBERT MAXWELLasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether his attention has been called to the statement of an eye-witness of the battle of Tamai, to the following effect:—
"I noticed the poor quality of the steel wrought into cutlasses and bayonets for the soldiers. If these Weapons touched a bone, they bent like hoop-iron, without piercing the body of the Arabs. Their spears and swords,
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sharp as razors, cut, as I saw scores of them through bone, sinew, and every obstacle, without turning the edge of the weapon;"
and, whether he will ensure, by inquiry and experiment, that any additional troops that may be sent to Egypt from this country shall be equipped with the best quality of arms?
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: Sir, in reply to these Questions, I can only say that the present pattern of bayonet is believed to afford a thoroughly serviceable weapon. General Graham has, however, been asked to report upon those with his force, and to send home for examination specimens of any which may have been found faulty.

ARMY—STRENGTH OF BAT TALIONS.
MR. TOTTENHAMasked the Secretary of State for War, If the private soldiers furnished by the 3rd Brigade at Aldershot on the 18th, 21st, and 23rd of February for the 1st Brigade guard, belonged to the Royal Scots Fusiliers; whether any privates were furnished by the Royal Irish Fusiliers on those days for that guard; whether the 1st Battalion of the Royal Irish Fusiliers now in India is still 147 men below its establishment, after receiving from its 2nd Battalion all the men available or liable to be transferred on that Battalion embarking for home; and, inasmuch as the 2nd Battalion was unable to complete its 1st Battalion up to its establishment, why upwards of 450 men were left behind on the embarkation of 1st Battalion for India?
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: Sir, on two of the days named the privates furnished by the 3rd Brigade at Aldershot for the 1st Brigade Guard belonged to the Royal Scots Fusiliers, and on the other day to the Royal Irish Fusiliers. The 1st Battalion of the Royal Irish Fusiliers is now on the Indian Establishment, and its strength is in excess of the strength allowed for battalions on that establishment.

EGYPT—THE RIOTS AT ALEXANDRIA —CAPTURED ARTILLERY.
MR. TOMLINSONasked the Secretary of State for War, What measure of truth there is in the statements in The Army and Navy Gazette of the 8th instant, that, when Alexandria was occupied, beautiful breech-loading artillery

35
were rendered useless by the initial; tubes being split by gun-Cotton, and that a magazine of the most expensive torpedoes was destroyed; whether the guns so destroyed are to be replaced by Krupp guns lately ordered from Prussia; whether a steamer has sailed from England with torpedoes for Alexandria to replace those which were destroyed; and, whether the cost of the torpedoes so sent is included in the Army Estimates for the present year?
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: Sir, only four 40-pounder breech-loading Armstrong guns were found at Alexandria; of these none were destroyed; 674 submarine mines of various natures wore destroyed, but no torpedoes. I am not aware that torpedoes have been despatched to Egypt from this country, and no provision for suck a service has been made in the Army Estimates.

ARMY PAY DEPARTMENT—GREVANCES OF OFFICERS.
MR. J. G. TALBOTasked the, Secretary of State for War, Whether lie has received a memorial from the Officers of the Army Pay Department enumerating certain grievances under which they conceive the Department to be suffering; whether it is a fact that a largo number of vacancies in that Department remain unfilled; and, whether he can hold out hopes of redressing one of the principal grievances complained of—namely, the absence of a permanent representative at the War Office, and of thus placing the Army Pay Department on the same footing as the Commissariat and the Ordnance Store Departments'?
SIR ARTHUR HAYTER: The answer to my hon. Friend's first Question is, Yes. To the second, that there are 23 vacancies out of a total establishment of 314 in the Pay Department, for which there are 12 candidates. To the third, that there is no intention of appointing a permanent representative of the Department at the War Office.

EMIGRATION (IRELAND)—MR. TUKE'S COMMITTEE.
MR. SHELL (for Colonel NOLAN)asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If an agent for Mr. Tuke's Committee for Emigration is now making a house-to-house canvass in the parish of Moyruss, in the county of Galway; and. if a house-to-house canvass has
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ever been forbidden by the Government within that county; and, if so, would the Government at present discountenance this house-to-house canvass for emigration purposes?
MR. TREVELYAN: Sir, there is no foundation whatever for the statement that any such house-to-house canvass has taken place. It is not the practice to make visits to any house unless the owner has applied to the relieving officer of the district to have his name entered oil the list of emigrants.

SEA COAST FISHERIES (IRELAND)— REPORT OF THE TRUSTEES FOR 1883.
MR. KENNY (for Mr. LEAMY)asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether there is any likelihood that the Report for 1883 of the Trustees to Aid the Sea Coast Fisheries of Ireland will be published in time to allow it to be in the hands of Members a few days previous to the 9th April, the day fixed for the Second Heading of the Fisheries (Ireland) Bill?
MR. TREVELYAN: Sir, I understand from the Secretary to the Trustees that there is no probability of the Report being adopted before the 9th of April.

ECCLESIASTICAL BUILDINGS (ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND).
MR. ILLINGWORTHasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, If he is aware that cathedrals, and similar ecclesiastical buildings, in Scotland are under the management of the Board of Works; and, whether he will consider the desirability of placing Westminster Abbey, and all other cathedrals in England, under the same control, with the view to their adequate maintenance and preservation?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS): Sir. on the abolition of Episcopacy in Scotland and the appropriation by the Crown of the Episcopal teinds, the obligation of supporting certain of the Cathedrals and Abbeys devolved upon the Crown; and since the separation of the Offices of Woods and Works tins charge falls on the Estimates of the Office of Works. The case of the English Cathedrals and Westminster Abbey is quite different, the Church retaining the Episcopal and! Capitular Revenues. Besides, I am one of those who think that the less busi-

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ness is thrown on the Central Government the better; and I am not prepared to propose that English Cathedrals should be repaired either out of Votes of Parliament or under the responsibility of a Government Department.

AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS (IRELAND).
MR. DUCKHAMasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, Whether the Agricultural Returns for Ireland will in future be published with those for Great Britain?
MR. DODSON, in reply, said, that the Irish statistics in these matters were collected by the Irish Government, and by different machinery from that by which they were collected in England. They were very much fuller in Ireland, and consequently were somewhat later. He presumed no one would wish the English statistics to be delayed. Whether the Irish statistics could be accelerated was a question which he could not answer.
MR. DUCKHAM: Could not the Irish statistics he pressed forward?
MR. DODSON: That is a matter for the Irish Government. I represent the English Department.
MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: Could not the right hon. Gentleman make inquiries, and see whether the Irish Returns could not be got out a little earlier?
MR. DODSON: That is a Question which should be addressed to the Irish Government.

PUBLIC HEALTH—CREMATION.
DR. CAMERONasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether, after the recent judgment of Mr. Justice Stephen as to the legality of cremation, he intends to interfere administratively with cremations conducted so as not to cause a public nuisance or provoke to a breach of the peace in cases in which there is evidence that death has resulted from natural causes; and, if so, under what Law he claims the right to interfere?
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: Sir. I think I stated the other day that I did not care to express any opinion as to the legality of this practice; but I repeat, for reasons I have already stated, that any power that I have in the matter will
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be used for the discouragement of a practice which, I think, for reasons I have already given, to be objectionable and repugnant to the feelings of the general community.
DR. CAMERONasked whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman had any power in the matter; and, if so, whether he intended to use it?
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: That is a subject on which I should not like to express an opinion; but if I have any such power I shall use it the manner I have stated.

STATE OF IRELAND—PREVENTION OF CRIME ACT, 1882—EXTRA POLICE.
MR. SEXTONasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether, in view of the unanimous congratulations addressed by Irish judges to grand juries at the Spring Assizes on the state of the respective counties, and also considering the undisturbed condition of society evidenced by the records of agrarian crime for the bygone half-year, the Government will discontinue the operation of those provisions of the Crimes Prevention Act which relate to the quartering of extra police, and the lowing of taxes for compensation?
MR. TREYELYAN: Sir, there are but seven proclamations for additional Constabulary under the Crimes Act now in active operation, as against 57 in February, l883. Of these, four affect districts in the county of Kerry. In the case of that county, the Judge's address to the Grand Jury at the late Assizes is not altogether of the character indicated in this Question; but, while remarking on the diminution of agrarian crime, clearly points to the value of the extra police force as one of the means to secure that end. With regard to the levying of taxes for compensation, it seems hardly necessary to say that the improved state of a district affords no ground upon which such a district could be relieved from payment of the compensation which has already been legally awarded to persons who, during the disturbed time, suffered injury or loss.

THE IRISH LAND COMMISSION (SUB-COMMISSIONERS) —PROFESSOR BALDWIN.
MR. M'COANasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland,

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If it is true, as reported in the newspapers, that Professor Baldwin has been allowed leave of absence for a year by the Land Commissioners, in order that he may aid in conducting the business of the Migration Company promoted by the honourable Member for Cork; if so, whether there are any precedents for a judicial functionary being so lent to the promoters of a private enterprise; and, whether, during such leave, Professor Baldwin will continue to draw his salary as a Sub-Commissioner?
MR. TREVELYAN: At the request of the Irish Land Purchase and Settlement Company, arrangements have been made by the Land Commissioners to grant Professor Baldwin leave of absence for a year to enable him to act on the Directorate of that Company. He will receive no pay as a Sub-Commissioner from the date of his quitting his Sub-Commission. The Land Commissioners felt unable to grant less than a year, as they could not obtain a competent person for less than a year. I am not aware whether there is any precedent for such an arrangement. The matter was decided on its merits, and without reference to precedent. Last year Parliament showed its interest in the subject of migration by assigning £50,000 to be devoted to such purposes; and while I must not be understood to assume that, as a matter of course, this Company will be aided by any portion of that sum, I do not think that an undertaking having such objects can properly be described as merely a "private enterprize."

INDIA—BENGAL TENANCY BILL.
MR. ONSLOWasked the Under Secretary of State for India, Whether it is true, as stated by the Indian press, that the Government of India will appoint a "roving Commission" to test the provisions of the Bengal Tenancy Bill by local inquiries; and, if so, whether the Commission will be a merely private official one, or whether it will be on the lines of the Indigo Commission of 1860, that consisted of three officials and throe non-officials, sitting publicly, and taking evidence on oath?
MR. J. K. CROSS, in reply, said, that the Secretary of State had received no information that it was the intention of the Government of India to appoint a Commission of the nature indicated by the hon. Member's Question.

LAW AND JUSTICE—THE DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS—PROSECUTIONS IN CAPITAL CASES.
MR. MELLORasked Mr. Attorney General, Whether it is true that the Government have determined that the prosecutions in all capital cases shall be conducted by the Director of Public Prosecutions; and, whether he has given any directions to that effect?
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES): Sir, perhaps it will be the better course for me, in answer to the Question of my hon. Friend, to state what directions I have given to the Director of Public Prosecutions. I lately received a communication from the Homo Office that in some recent cases great inconvenience, if not injustice, had resulted from no responsible person being in charge of cases when the life of the accused was at stake. I was also informed that the Home Office had found great difficulty in dealing with cases of alleged insanity in consequence of the facts not being brought before the jury, and only suggested after the trial. It seemed to me, therefore, advisable to take steps to insure that all the evidence bearing upon the case, whether tending to prove the guilt or innocence of the prisoner, should be placed before the jury; and with that object I have requested that whenever an accused person is brought before Justices on a capital charge, the magistrates' clerk shall communicate with the Solicitor of the Treasury, and that that officer shall take charge of the prosecution unless he finds that some competent private person or local body has the conduct of it; but, in the absence of such proper conduct, it will the duty of the Treasury Solicitor, acting for the Director of Public Prosecutions, to see that the evidence in every capital case be fully brought before the jury. I have also requested that in those cases where insanity in the accused is alleged, full inquiry shall be made, and in the absence of his or his friends' ability to produce witnesses, the Treasury Solicitor shall secure their attendance.
SIR R. ASSHETON CROSS: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman say whether the chief evil in this matter has not arisen in the Central Criminal Court; and if his attention has not been directed to the way in which prosecutions are carried on there?
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES): The evils to which my attention has been directed are pretty general. One of the cases I have in my mind did occur at the Central Criminal Court. The question of the right hon. Gentleman involves the point whether the Director of Public Prosecutions should not take charge of them altogether.

POOR LAW (IRELAND)—ELECTION OF GUARDIANS—BALTINGLASS UNION —MR. EDWARD P. O'KELLY.
MR. W. J. CORBETasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If, as President of the Local Government Board, he will inquire whether Mr. Edward P. O'Kelly, of Baltinglass, County Wicklow. is duly rated on a valuation of £27 5s whether he was nominated as a candidate for the office of Poor Law Guardian, on the 4th instant, in the Union of Baltinglass; and, whether the returning officer, Mr. Dagg, rejected the nomination paper; and, if so, on what grounds?
MR. TREVELYAN, in reply, said, it was true that Mr. O'Kelly was rated for the sum mentioned; but some of the lands were held as immediate lessor, in which case he was obliged to make a claim as required by law. He did make a claim, but it was found to be informal, and his valuation being thus reduced below the amount required by law his nomination was rejected.

EGYPT (EVENTS IN THE. SOUDAN)— THE SINKAT PRISONERS—AFFAIRS AT KHARTOUM.
MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether he will empower Admiral Sir "William Hewett, now commanding at Suakin, to offer a ransom, for the release of the wives and families of the Commandant and the garrison of Sinkat, who have been sold into slavery by Osman Digna; and, whether Her Majesty's Government will lay upon the Table the instructions already issued upon this subject?
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLasked whether the Government had received any authentic information that the wives and families of the garrison of Sinkat had been sold into slavery?
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: Sir, I think that the noble Lord the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs answered this Question a few days ago. ["No."] We have called the attention of General Graham to the subject referred to, and have asked him whether it is possible to do anything for the release of the wives and families of these soldiers by ransom or otherwise. In reply to the hon. Baronet, I have to say that we have received no authentic information on the subject.
MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: In consequence of the reply of the noble Lord, I will ask the noble Lord tomorrow whether it has not been stated to General Graham, by Egyptian solders who were survivors of the garrison at Sinkat, that 200 women and children have been carried off by Osman Digna?
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: Sir, I cannot state exactly, but I be have it was reported that a certain number of women and children had been taken to the mountains, though whether they are in a state of slavery or not I cannot say.
MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTasked the First Lord of t he Treasury, Whether his attention has been called to the following statements attributed to General Gordon by The Times correspondent at Khartoum:—
"There is a certainty that the emissaries of the Mahdi will succeed in raising the tribes between this (Khartoum) and Berber. This is not owing to disaffection, but to fear caused by the pronounced policy of the abandonment of the Soudan. We cannot blame them for rising when no definite sign is shown of establishing a permanent government here. …. Be sure of one thing. If Her Majesty's Government do not act promptly. General Graham's victory will go for nought, and with the useless expenditure of blood the effect of it will evaporate. I du not be have we shall send any more telegrams, for it is no longer a question of days, but of hours;"
and, whether, in view of these grave statements, Her Majesty's Government will reconsider their orders for the abandonment of Khartoum, and will, in co-operation with the Sovereign Power, authorize the establishment of a civilized government in that region under efficient British supervision?
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: Sir, I was under the impression that the subject referred to in this Question had been dealt with in the debate on Saturday. I hardly expected that the hon. Member would renew the Question. It

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is not possible for me, or for any other Member of the Government, to give any further information on the subject at present.
MR. ASHMEAD- BARTLETT: I have again to ask the noble Lord wether he will reply to the last paragraph of this Question." [Cries of No!"] I can assure the noble Lord that there was no statement in the course of the debate on Saturday which would furnish a reply to that paragraph.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: I may say now, with reference both to this Question and the succeeding one, which stands in the name of the hon. Member for Greenwich (Baron Henry De Worms), that I stated on Saturday that I was in communication with Sir Evelyn Baring on the subject of the intelligence received from General Gordon at Khartoum and the proposal which had been made by him, and that undoubtedly I would make a statement on the subject as soon as it was possible to consult him; but I think it would be detrimental to the Public Service to make a statement now.
SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: I wish to ask whether the communication with Khartoum is now open? We were informed the other night that the telegraph was interrupted.
LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: The last news we have is that the telegraph is only open as far as Shendy, and that there is still an interruption in the telegraphic communication with Khartoum.
BARON HENRY DE WORMSasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether Her Majesty's Government have yet arrived at any decision with regard to the proposal that Zebehr Pasha should succeed General Gordon as Governor of Khartoum; and, whether, in view of the strong condemnation which has been expressed of the suggestion that the people of the Soudan should be placed under the rule of that notorious slave driver, Her Majesty's Government will give the House ail opportunity of expressing their opinion on the subject before such an appointment is made?
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: I am afraid I gave the only answer I could. In answering the previous Question of the hon. Member for Eye (Mr. Ashmead-Bartlett), I referred to the Question placed on the Paper by the
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hon. Member opposite, and the answer which I gave is the only one I am capable of giving at present.
BARON HENRY DE WORMSasked, whether the noble Lord would answer the last part of his Question, as to whether the House would have an opportunity of expressing their opinion before an appointment was made?
SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFFdesired to ask a Question of which he had not been able to give the noble Lord Notice—namely, whether there was any truth in the telegrams of to-day stating that Admiral Hewett had issued a Proclamation offering a reward for the capture of Osman Digna alive or dead; whether that Proclamation had boon issued with the previous or the subsequent sanction of Her Majesty's Government; and whether, in case this should load to the private assassination of Osman Digna, Her Majesty's Government were prepared to pay the reward out of the funds of the British taxpayer?
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: In reply to the further Question of the hon. Member for Greenwich (Baron Henry De Worms), I have only to say that I have undertaken that a full statement shall be made by the Government on this subject at the earliest possible moment. I do not think I am able to add to that. In reply to the Question of the hon. Member for Portsmouth (Sir H. Drummond Wolff), I saw this morning a statement made in the newspapers that a Proclamation of this character had been issued by Admiral Hewett and General Graham. I at once communicated with my noble Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty on the subject, and I found that he had already despatched a telegram asking Admiral Hewett whether it was true that such a Proclamation had been issued, and pointing out to him that Proclamations of such a character ought not to he put forth without communication with Sir Evelyn Baring. I ought, perhaps, to say, in justice to Admiral Hewett and General Graham, that I observe that the reports in the newspapers do not altogether agree as to the exact terms of the Proclamation said to have been issued.
SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFFsaid, he should like to ask whether, even with the concurrence of Sir Evelyn Baring, such a Proclamation should be issued;

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whether such a Proclamation should he issued under any circumstances; and, whether the Government would withdraw it at once?
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: What I intended to point out was that Proclamations of a political character such as this is ought not to be issued without the previous sanction of the vernment. Sir Evelyn Baring, on any important subject of this sort, would communicate with Her Majesty's Government.
MR. STAVELEY HILLinquired whether any answer had been received from Admiral Hewett?
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: I am not aware whether any answer has been received.

EGYPT—THE PRESS LAWS—THE "BOSPHORE EGYPTIEN."
MR. M'COANasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether the Egyptian Tress Law is still in existence; whether, according to it, three "warnings" must precede the suppression of any newspaper subject to its provisions; whether such "warnings" were given to The Bosphore Egyptien before its recent suppression; whether the decree ordering such suppression emanated from the Ministry for Foreign Affairs, as provided by the Press Law, or from the Ministry of the Interior, of which Mr. Clifford Lloyd is the Under Secretary; whether such decree has been sanctioned by Sir Evelyn Baring: whether the specific offence for which the suspension has been ordered wag the publication of an article in the issue of the condemned newspaper for the 18th of February last, in which the influence of Sir Evelyn Baring on Egyptian Administration was unfavourably, but still moderately and respectfully, commented on; and, whether he will lay Copies of such article, of the decree suppressing the newspaper, and of any Despatches received from Cairo on the subject, upon the Table of the House?
LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: The Egyptian Press Law now in force is presumed to be that of November 26, 1881. According to Article 13 of that law, two warnings must precede the suppression of a newspaper; but it may be suppressed without warning by a decision of the Council of Ministers. The execution of the law rests with the Minister of the Interior, not with the
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Minister for Foreign Affairs. Sir Evelyn Baring has been asked to communicate the facts in the particular case of The Bophore Egyptien: and, as I have already stated, there will be no objection to presenting the Papers to Parliament.

KGYPT (MILITARY OPERATIONS IN THE SOUDAN)—THE ROYAL IRISH FUSILIERS.
MR. O'SHEAasked the noble Lord the Secretary of State for War, Whether the regiment referred to as being in front of the 2nd Brigade at Tamasi, whose steadiness enabled the 1st Brigade to rally and thus saved the honour of the British Arms, was the Royal Irish Fusiliers?
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: I wish the hon. Gentleman had given me Notice of that Question. I am not in a position at present to state the position of the regiments.

EGYPT (MILITARY OPERATIONS IN THE SOUDAN)—COLONEL BURNABY.
LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL: I want, with the permission of the noble Lord the Secretary of State for War, to ask him a Question of which I have not been able to give him Notice, but which, I am sure, from his position as the responsible Minister for the Army and from his knowledge of the Army, he will be able to answer without Notice, as it concerns the honour and character of a gallant officer. The Question is this—Whether it is not an invariable and immemorial rule of the British Army that any British officer on leave, who finds himself in the neighbourhood of British Forces engaged in military operations, is bound to place his services at the disposal of the officer commanding those forces? Further, whether Colonel Burnaby, acting on this invariable rule, placed his services at the disposal of General Graham; whether he received the thanks of General Graham for his services; whether he was seriously wounded; and, whether he was not intrusted by General Graham with the distinguished honour of bringing home despatches?
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: I am not aware of any such rule as that referred to by the noble Lord; but I have not the least doubt that any officer on leave, finding himself in the neighbourhood of British Forces engaged in military operations, would offer his ser-

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vices to the officer in command. I have no knowledge of the circumstances under which Colonel Burnaby's services were accepted by General Graham; but I have not the least doubt that the military authorities out there would be very glad to avail themselves of the services of so distinguished and so able an officer as Colonel Burnaby.
LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL: That is not the Question. What I asked was, whether Colonel Burnaby was publicly thanked by General Graham for his services; whether he was severely wounded; and whether he was intrusted with the honour of bringing home the despatches? I wish, further, to ask whether the noble Lord is aware that his Colleague, the President of the Local Government Board, stated in this House, on his own knowledge, that Colonel Burnaby was under no necessity to take part in military operations?
SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: I must entirely contradict that. What I said was, that Colonel Burnaby was under no military necessity to take part in the military operations by firing on the Arabs with a shot gun.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: In reply to the other Question of the noble Lord, I am only aware officially of the fact that Colonel Burnaby was wounded. I have no further knowledge respecting Colonel Burnaby other than that which I have seen in the newspapers. I do not know whether he was thanked by the General, and I do not know whether he is bringing home despatches.
LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL: Is the noble Lord, as the Minister in this House responsible for the British Army, prepared to confirm the statement of his Colleague just made in the nature of an insult to a gallant officer? I must press for a reply to that Question.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: I do not know what the noble Lords calls the statement of my right hon. Friend.
LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL: The statement just made—that Colonel Burnaby was under no military necessity to take part in the military operations at El Teb by firing on the Arabs with a gun.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: I can only give an expression of my own personal opinion. I should certainly think that no British officer would
48
be under the necessity of taking part in an action in the manner described by my right hon. Friend.
MR. ONSLOW: I should like to ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board, in his speech on Saturday, did not use the words which he just now said he used?
SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: I beg most emphatically to say that I did make use of those words. ["Oh, oh!"]
MR. GORST: May I be allowed to ask the President of the Local Government Board on what authority he has publicly stated in this House that Colonel Burn a by did fire on the Arabs with a shot gun?
SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: The noble Lord had accused the British Army of taking part in an operation the most wanton that has ever been known.
LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL: I did not; I deny it flatly.
SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: The words are to be found in all the reports of the speech which the noble Lord made on the 3rd of March. In the speech to which I allude—a very excited speech—the noble Lord said, or was reported to have said, that we had taken part in an operation the most wanton that had ever been known.
LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL: I did not. ["Order, order!"] I did not.
SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: My statement is confirmed by all the reports of what the noble Lord said in this House on Monday, March 3. In the speech to which I alluded, the noble Lord was reported to have used these words——
LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL: No.
SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: To have used strong language in condemnation of the operations so conducted. In reply to the noble Lord, I said that I would leave him to settle that question with the gallant officer who was standing with him as a Colleague for the representation of Birmingham. The noble Lord interrupted me, and said that Colonel Burnaby was under orders when taking part in the operations in the Soudan. I, in reply to his interruption, said that I doubted that fact; and, the noble Lord having again interrupted me, I said I was not aware that Colonel Burnaby was under necessity of

49
taking part in these operations by firing with a shot gun upon the Arabs.
LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL: As a personal explanation—the House will allow me to contradict as strongly as I possibly can the statement of the President of the Local Government Board that I accused the British Army of having—what did he say?—that I accused the British Army of being guilty of inhuman—[Cries of "Wanton!"—operations. I did nothing of the kind. I stated in this House that nothing was due to the British Army for those operations, except the thanks of Parliament; and the parties I accused of massacre and blood-guiltiness were Her Majesty's Government.
CAPTAIN FELLOWES: I wish to ask the President of the Local Government Board, whether there is any other authority except the reports in the newspapers for the statement that Colonel Burnaby fired on the Arabs with a shot gun?
SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: No, Sir. I began by saying that I had not. I had not the least intention of making that statement. [Cries of"Withdraw!"] I should not have made it at all but for the interruption of the noble Lord. That statement with regard to the firing on the Arabs with the shot gun was given in much detail in all the newspapers which contained an account of the battle, and in one newspaper particulars are given as to the number of Arabs killed by Colonel Burnaby.
CAPTAIN-FELLOWES: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will let me tell him that my information is the direct contrary——
MR. SPEAKER: I beg to intimate to the hon. and gallant Member that he will not be in Order in continuing his remarks.

BUNKRUPTCY ACT, 1883 (PATRONAGE) —OFFICIAL RECEIVERS— MR. MESSENT.

  PERSONAL EXPLANATION.
  MR. DIXON-HARTLANDsaid, he rose for the purpose of making a personal explanation with regard to a Motion which he made in that House, for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the appointments made to Official Receiverships under the Bankruptcy Act of last Session, by the President of the Board of Trade,
  50
  and into the manner in which the right hon. Gentleman had exercised his patronage under that Act. That Committee was refused. On a subsequent day, when he was unfortunately absent through illness, the President of the Board of Trade read two letters to the House, which he should have answered if he had been present. He wished, therefore, to make some remarks in reference to those letters. He would have been prepared to answer the right hon. Gentleman on Thursday last; but the right hon. Gentleman was not in his place, and he thought it more courteous to defer the statement until the right hon. Gentleman was present. The first letter was from a person named Messent, who was appointed Official Receiver in Bankruptcy at Ipswich. That letter would be fresh in the memory of the House. The first part of the letter expressed indignation at the charge which he had made that Mr. Messent had asked for the indulgence of his creditors; and the second part stated that Mr. Messent, before his appointment, was permanently resident at Ipswich. It would be more respectful to the House if he stated the reasons on which he made that charge. He went to Birmingham specially to investigate the case; and he heard, not from one, but from dozens, that what he had said was the fact. He was not satisfied with that, but applied to one of the principal Trade Protection Societies. [Loud cries of"Order!"]
  MR. DILLWYN: I rise to Order, Sir. Is this a personal explanation?
  MR. SPEAKER: I understand that the hon. Member wishes to proceed to a personal explanation.
  MR. DIXON-HARTLANDsaid, that he had made certain charges, and wished to explain why he had done so. He, therefore, applied to one of the Trade Protection Societies without giving his reasons for doing so. The reply he received was as followed:—
  "It is understood that F. M. has recently been appointed Official Receiver under the new Bankruptcy Act at Ipswich. He was in difficulties when in Birmingham, hut has since paid 20s. in the pound."
  Not satisfied with that, he repeated his question in another quarter, and the reply was that Mr. Messent had not actually failed, but had been in difficulties, and that he had since paid 20 s.

  51
  in the pound. He applied to another Trade Society, and got the same answer. He thought that was sufficient reason for his statement that Mr. Messent had asked for the indulgence of his creditors; but, as his (Mr. Dixon-Hartland's) object was to perform a public duty, and not to wound anyone's feelings, he would wish to withdraw those words. But that did not alter one jot or tittle—[Cries of"Order!"]
  MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Gentleman is not entitled to enter upon matters of debate. So long as he confines himself to a personal explanation, he is in Order.
  MR. DIXON-HARTLAND: The rest of Mr. Messent's letter was that he was really an Ipswich man; but that did not alter the fact that he was a tailor living at Birmingham, a voter for Birmingham, a Guardian of the Poor for Birmingham, and an active member of the Birmingham Caucus. The second letter read by the President of the Board of Trade was from Mr. Hughes, the Mayor of Oxford; and if the right hon. Gentleman had examined the facts at first hand, instead of trusting to Mr. Hughes's testimony, he would have found that Mr. Mallam gave evidence on the Oxford Election Petition. ["Order, order!"]
  MR. SPEAKER: I have allowed considerable latitude to the him. Member, because I understood that he was going to confine himself to a personal explanation; but he is now introducing matter of fresh debate. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member; but he is really out of Order.
  MR. DIXON-HARTLANDsaid, he was only referring to the eases mentioned in the letters read the other night. [Cries of "Order!"] Might he not refer to those letters?
  MR. SPEAKER: So long as they have any reference to the personal explanation which the hon. Member desires to make. But, as I said before, to go into those cases would be to inaugurate a fresh debate, and that would not be in Order.
  MR. DIXON- HARTLANDonly wished to vindicate what he had said before. ["Order, order!" "Name!" Did Mr. Speaker rule that he could make this personal explanation?
  MR. SPEAKER: Yes.
  MR. DIXOX-HARTLANDsaid, he would read the evidence given upon the
  52
  Oxford Election Petition by Mr. George Mallam, the Official Receiver just appointed—
  "What was the next election in which you took any part?—The first election of this year. William Harcourt, with Mr. Chitty, called on my brother, and they sent for me. I came up, and they said they hoped they should get both our services. Who was acting as principal agent?—Mr. Bickerton. Did you act under him?—I acted wish him."
  He (Mr. Dixon-Hartland), therefore, thought that in this case also he was justified in saying that the appointment was for political services.
  MR. CHAMBERLAIN: Perhaps the House will allow me to make one or two observations, which shall be very brief. [Cries of "Order!"]
  SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF: I wish to ask, Sir, whether the right hon. Gentleman is entitled to continue this debate?
  MR. SPEAKER: After the statement which has just been made, and which has certainly exceeded the limits of a personal explanation, I do not think that anything more should be said on the subject.

  EGYPT (AFFAIRS OF THE SOUDAN)— GENERAL GRAHAM'S PROCLAMATION.
  MR. HEALYgave Notice that, in the event of the reports being true that a reward had been offered for the assassination of Osman Digna, he would ask the noble Lord the Secretary of State for War, Whether he would consider the effect of that Proclamation upon General Gordon in case the gentleman whom the noble Lord had recognized as Sultan of Kordofan—namely, the Mahdi—should offer a reward in analogous terms for the capture of General Gordon, dead or alive?

  SOUTHERN PACIFIC-SOUTH SEA ISLANDERS.
  MR O'DONNELLasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether any reply has been given by Her Majesty's Government to the complaints of the Imperial German Government, that "vessels sailing under the English flag, and regularly accompanied by Government officers," not only carry off South Sea Islanders into slavery under the name of free labour, but that even "the violent proceedings of the labour traffic ships are directed against the property of German traders;" whe-

  53
  ther the German Imperial Government have, as stated by Baron Plossen—
  "Permanently stationed a ship of the Imperial Navy in South Sea waters during the so-called labour season from May till end of September, with instructions to repel by force attacks upon the life and property of Germans;"
  and, what action Her Majesty's Government intend to take in case the German' Imperial Navy considers it to be necessary to use force against ships engaged' in the so-called labour traffic; under the English flag?
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: Her Majesty's Government have replied by communicating to the German Government the Report of the Commission recently presented to Parliament. The intention of the German Government, as announced to us is to station a man-of-war in the South Sea waters during the labour season, which does not commence till May. The object, as defined in Baron Plossen's note annexed to the Report, will be to control German labour ships. Her Majesty's Government, having no knowledge of any intention to interfere with ships under the English Flag, do not think it necessary to take any steps.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY.—COMMITTEE.
  Order for Committee read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

  ARMY (TERM OF SERVICE).

    RESOLUTION.
    SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL, in rising to move—
    "That experience shows that no system will provide adequately for the military requirements of the British Empire which does not provide for two distinct classes of soldiers, short service men to stay at home and form a reserve for defence, and long service men to form a professional Army to serve in India and distant Foreign possessions,"
    said, he had hoped that the Secretary of State for War would have made his statement with regard to the Army Estimates before going into Committee of Supply; but as the noble Lord had not done so he wished to call attention to a Motion that he had had upon the Paper for
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    several years. He had placed it on the Paper because he had always had a strong opinion respecting the system of long and short service. His experience of India had convinced him in regard to the past that nothing but an Army of the most thoroughly efficient character would have stood the strain that our Indian Army had had to bear. The language of his Resolution was very weak compared with that winch military men were in the habit of using every day as to the soldiers we now had in our regiments. The Resolution did not mean that they should have two Armies, but that they should attract into the Army two classes of men. They should have long service men for the defence of our great Possessions abroad, and they should endeavour; to attract to the Service intelligent men who were willing to accept the Army as their profession in life. With regard to I the short service men, he thought they should offer inducements to men of good character to accept what he might call a retaining fee for service at home in the Reserves, to be employed in the defence of their country, if, unfortunately, foreign aggression should render it necessary. As to the necessity for a long service system, he be believed that Her Majesty's Government had come to his way of thinking, as he understood, from the announcement made by the noble Lord last year, that men of good character were given the privilege of re-enlisting for long service, by which they obtained certain advantages, he hoped that would not be a temporary offer on the part of the Government, but that men would be assured that if they liked to devote themselves to the profession of arms they would eventually retire upon pensions. The present system of deferred pay, however, was almost incompatible with long service, as it acted as a kind of bounty or premium to men to retire from the Army: when their short-service term expired. Though he would be the last person in the world to object to any system under I which men of intelligence could be induced to enter the Army, he be believed that the system of deferred pay was against the interests and efficiency of a long-service Army. In former days, when the Army was under a different system, one of severe discipline, the men fought well; but nowadays men had become too comfortable and too intelligent to knock

    55
    their heads against a wall unless some kind of promotion and advantage could be offered for their ambition. It was unfortunate that in our Army promotion from the ranks to the grade of officer was not so welcome a change as it ought to be. It too often happened that a man so raised was made wretched, for he was cut off from his former friends, and he could not associate with other officers on equal terms. The East India Company got a better class of men in this way, because under the Company there was a wider field open to ambition. There was every probability that it would add to the popularity of the Army at home if men could be enlisted for short periods without the liability to serve abroad with the prospect of returning to civil occupations after they had served long enough to be entitled, as he had said, to a retaining fee for service in the Reserve. He hoped that in urging these views upon the Secretary of State for War he was only flogging a willing horse, and that the noble Lord would be prepared to extend to the Line the system of enlistment that was producing favourable results in the case of the Guards. We must make the payments that were necessary to induce men to enlist for foreign service. Without detaining the House, he would like to say just one word about the next Motion upon the Paper, in the name of the hon. Member for Kirkcudbright (Sir Herbert Maxwell). For his part, be did not hold with the view of the hon. Baronet with regard to the ostrich feather, or, in fact, with anything else that came from Egypt. He was one of those who thought that the sooner we washed our hands of everything connected with Egypt the better. He should much prefer to see the use of what might be called the national Tam o' Shanter bonnet than of these extraordinary headpieces. The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving the Resolution of which he had given Notice.
    COLONEL COLTHURSTsaid, that, in seconding the-Resolution of the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy, he did not bind himself to all the details of the hon. Member" s plan, he was inclined to think that what the Secretary of State for War did last year would have been a sufficient stop in the direction indicated, if it had only been carried out. He (Colonel Colthurst) believed that a system of free trade in enlistment was what was re-
    56
    quired—namely, that every man who enlisted in the Guards or in the Line for three years should at the end of that period have the power of going on to nine years more, and that, if approved, he might at the end of his 12 years continue his service for the purpose of obtaining a pension. The noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War would remember that it was found impossible to get 600 men who had completed six years in India to continue their service. They stated that they had their deferred pay, and could got civil employment, and that if they re-enlisted for six years more they would at the end of that time be turned adrift with worse chances of obtaining work than they then had. He thanked the noble Marquess for recognizing the situation last year, but regretted that the boon which he had given to the Army had been needlessly restricted. Without going into details, he might be allowed to express his conviction that what had boon given to the Foot Guards might with advantage be given to the Infantry of the Line. With reference to deferred pay, he hoped the noble Lord would take into consideration the possibility of giving the money in the shape of weekly or monthly pay. Deferred pay ought not to be made a premium to the men to leave the Army as it was now. Men often wasted the £18 which they received at the end of six years' service, and they then became discontented and fell back upon the 4d. per day reserve pay, and many of them fraudulently re-enlisted. He suggested that the War Office should issue a clear statement to the men pointing out that the changes which had been made with reference to re-engagement were permanent. There was a general impression that those changes were not of a permanent character, and the men had no confidence that the promises which had been made would be continued. He hoped the noble Marquess would consider the suggestion he had made.
    Amendment proposed,
    To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "experience shows that no system will provide adequately for the military requirements of the British Empire which does not provide for two distinct classes of soldiers, short service men to stay at home and form a reserve for defence, and long service men to form a professional

    57
    Army to srrve in India and distant Foreign possessions,"—(Sir George Campbell,)
    —instead thereof.
    Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
    GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOURsaid, he considered that the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy had done good service in calling the attention of the noble Marquess to the defects which especially applied to the European portion of the troops forming the Indian Army from the changes of late years in regard to the periods of service of the men. But there was one matter to which he had not referred—the deficiency in the strength of the European division of the Indian Army. He found that last year there had been a deficiency of 5,500 in the European portion of the soldiers on the Indian Establishment, and that the strength of the Infantry of the Line was still 3,500 deficient. Such a deficiency was, he thought, a serious reflection upon the Horse Guards, and he mentioned this because it was not the first time that so great a deficiency had taken place. He contended that the Mutiny would never have taken place if the Army had been kept up to its proper strength. As far as could be ascertained, the European Force was then 6,000 rank-and-file short of its proper strength, being thus one-sixth of the whole number. At that very time there were at home abundance of soldiers. Between 1860 and 1872 the European strength was again allowed to fall several thousands below the total enlistment; but by letters to The Times, pointing out the short numbers, the deficiencies were promptly made good. Again, recently, the Establishment was far short of its proper complement of men. He could not understand why last year the Indian Army was allowed to fall so far below its establishment. The defect must be owing to bad arrangements for recruiting and for training the men. Under the old East India Company recruits enlisted most freely, and any number could be obtained. But now, when all were Imperial soldiers, the deficiencies existed. The question was a serious one, and it was the duty of the Government to maintain the strength of the Indian Establishment whatever that strength might be.
    THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: Sir, I will say a very few words upon this subject before the Question is put, because it is one which may, perhaps, be discussed more conveniently in Committee. My hon. Friend is perfectly right in saying that I agree to a great extent with the views which he has expressed; and the measures taken in June Last went considerably in the direction of the proposal now before the House. Our present system does practically provide for two classes of soldiers serving in the Army—one class enlisting for short service only and subsequent service in the Reserve, and another class having the privilege of extending their short service, and ultimately of re-engaging. The system under consideration does give a very considerable amount of such elasticity as my hon. Friend desires to see in the terms of soldiers' engagements. I cannot, however, commit myself to the acceptance of the Amendment that has been moved. My hon. Friend appears to desire that the Army should be separated by a hard-and-fast line into two divisions, the first of which would contain short service men, who would serve for a very short time and then go into the Reserve, and who in no circumstances would leave this country; while the second would contain men who would enlist for some long period of service, and do all the foreign service required of the Army. Now, I do not think that it would be advantageous to have a large Army at home which would never have an opportunity of doing any foreign service. I should not like to see such a line as that drawn; although I admit that there ought to be more elasticity in the terms of soldiers' engagements. My hon. Friend has pointed out that the grant of deferred pay when a soldier leaves the Colours acts practically as a bounty to induce men to go into the Reserve. That is a fact; but we must recollect that the deferred pay is part of the inducement offered to a recruit to join the Colours; and now that the system has been established so long, we ought to be very careful how we alter or interfere with the advantages which are offered to recruits, and which experience tells us are so successful in influencing largo numbers of men to enlist. It is extremely desirable, in the interests of the Army and of the soldier himself, that he should be given the means of

    59
    taking with him into private life a considerable sum of money, in order that he may start in some business or occupation. I am afraid that too often the deferred pay is wasted; but in many cases it does enable the soldier to resume the avocation which he followed before his enlistment, and so adds to the popularity of the Service in many districts of the country. Reference has been made to the alteration in the terms of enlistment in the case of the Guards. No doubt that experiment has been extremely successful so far as it has gone; but it would be premature to say that it ought to be extended to the whole Army. As yet only half the experiment has been tried. It has induced recruits to join, but we do not know yet what number of them will be willing to prolong their service with the Colours after the expiration of the Stipulated three years. There will be no inconvenience in the case of the Guards if the period of service is not extended, because the Guards have no foreign service; but if we were to enlist men in the Line for three years only, and were not to find a sufficient number of men willing to extend their service, we should find ourselves in difficulties in connection with our battalions abroad. Therefore, before going further with the experiment initiated last year, it will be necessary to have more experience than we have at present as to the willingness of men not only to enlist, but to extend their service. Reference has also been made to the alleged uncertainty of the policy of the War Office. It has been said that this uncertainty has caused a considerable number of men to abstain from taking advantage of the changes introduced last year. There must be some misapprehension here. No doubt I have said that the changes made last June were introduced experimentally, and might not be permanent; but there is no uncertainty whatever attaching to the cases of the men who have availed themselves of those changes. The only doubt is, whether similar proposals will be made to men who may join the Army hereafter. To a certain extent, we have adopted the opinions which my hon. Friend holds, and I ask him not to press us to extend this experiment too far and too rapidly. Before I sit down, I may be allowed to make an appeal to hon. Members who have Motions on the Paper. Several of
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    those Motions will be discussed equally well, if not with greater advantage, after I have had the opportunity of making my statement in Committee. I hope I may be allowed to make that statement without any very great delay, so that the House may be placed in possession of the policy of the Government.
    SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFFasked whether the noble Lord could give him any further information about the Proclamation for the capture of Osman Digna?
    MR. SPEAKERruled that the question of the hon. Gentleman was irrelevant.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Main Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

  ARMY—DRESS OF THE ARMY—THE FEATHER HEAD-DRESS OF THE HIGHLAND REGIMENTS.

    OBSERVATIONS.
    SIR HERBERT MAXWELL, in whose name the following Resolution stood upon the Paper:—
    "That, in the opinion of this House, it is desirable to retain distinctive uniforms for the Territorial Regiments; that the proposed discontinuance of the feather bonnet, which has been worn by the Highland Regiments for upwards of a century in many victorious campaigns, is especially to be deprecated; and that, in view of the unsatisfactory materials issued from the Clothing Department to Highland Regiments, the provision of all Highland articles of clothing be intrusted to the regimental or battalion authorities, as was formerly done by the Colonels in Chief, when. Regiments were clothed by them,"
    said, he was most anxious to adopt what the noble Marquess thought was the best means of discussing his Motion; but he thought the House would know the difference between discussing a subject before going into Committee now, and discussing it in Committee, perhaps, between 2 and 3 o'clock in an August morning. There was additional reason for discussing the matter now. and that was that it had already been, no doubt involuntarily, on the part of the Heads of the Departments, the subject of several mis-statements. Those mis-statements had been allowed to go forth, and so far they had had no opportunity of contradicting them. English Members might, perhaps, not understand fully the feeling with' which the announcement had been received in

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    Scotland that the head-dress which had been so long inseparably associated with a Highland regiment, and which had been worn on the battle-Held in every part of the civilized world, was about to be abolished. Such a step ought not to be taken unless it could be shown that it. was highly expedient, and he was prepared to show that it was not. Two years ago the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was at that time Secretary of State for War, in answer to his Question whether the head-dress of the Highland regiments was to be changed, said that there had been for some time a discussion as to the suitability of the present heavy and costly bonnet, and, after many complaints, the Duke of Cambridge had appointed a Committee, consisting of officers of Scotch regiments, to inquire into the matter; that the Report had not yet reached him; but when it should he would give it his most earnest consideration. What was the result of that inquiry? The Committee separated and never made a he -port; and, what was more, the Instructions to that Committee—and he defied contradiction in that—were not to inquire into the utility of the present head-dress of Highland soldiers. The Instructions to the Committee contained the statement that the abolition of the bonnet had already been decided on, and that they were to select a proper substitute. The fact was that Sir Archibald Alison's Committee had been mixed up with another Committee over which Lord Morley presided, and the Report of which contained the recommendation that the head-dross should be abolished. But upon what ground was that Report founded? It was founded upon this—that in order to give symmetry to the artificial, and in man respects undesirable, scheme of the late Secretary of State for War, under which three additional regiments wore put in kilts, in order to meet the additional expense it was decided to take away the head-dress of the existing battalions. The late Secretary of State for "War had talked of the bonnet as heavy and costly. Now, about three hours ago he had an officer's bonnet in his hand, and what did it weigh? It weighed only 1½lbs. Twenty years ago it cost £8. and it had been in constant use ever since. In reply to a Question put by him the other day, the noble Marquess hazarded the statement that the present head-dress had no national
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    origin. [The Marquess of HARTINGTON said, that he re he d upon the Report of the Committee.] He would have to go a little into ancient history to show how utterly without foundation the assertion was. The first instance he had been able to find of an artistic representation of the feather bonnet was in a picture by Jameson, who was known as the Scottish Vandyke, of one of the Earls of Moray, in the Reign of Charles I. The Earl was represented in kilt and broad blue bonnet with ostrich feathers. The broad blue bonnet was the national Scotch headdress. The present feather bonnet had come by evolution, as it were, out of the broad blue bonnet. When the latter was selected as the soldier's head-dress, it was made as tall and imposing as possible. The broad blue bonnet was pulled up and stiffened, and feathers wore put upon it. Anyone with any experience of Infantry knew that the last instructions given to soldiers before going into action were to fire low, and the effect of the feather bonnet was to make their adversaries fire high, as it added a foot to the height, and thus afforded the men a better chance of escaping. In 1739, on the formation of the 42nd Regiment, according to one of the greatest authorities on the subject, they received a blue bonnet with a border of red, white, and green in colours of different branches of the Stuart family, and a tuft of feathers. The feathers were no unmeaning appendage, but indicated gentility and the right to bear arms, the greater part of the 42nd being duinnie-wassals, or small gentry. Was it right or just to attack the Scotch regiments—for it was nothing less than an attack—and inflict a slight upon them, by asking them to surrender, from motives of economy—which were very much, exaggerated—a distinction inherited from so honourable a source? Had this been an Irish question, hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway would have made the position intolerable for the Government. Because they were Scottish, and wore accustomed to let things pass without much discussion, did they think they were going to allow their bonnets to be taken away? Not at all. The noble Lord had stated that the Highland head-dress was never worn abroad. For the last three or four years it had not been worn abroad; but in all our great battles it was one of the most familiar of head-dresses. It

    63
    was worn by the 42nd in Flanders, and there they received the red hackle as an honourable distinction, which, up to the present time, they wear. Would the Government take away that honour from a regiment which was hearing the brunt of the present campaign in Egypt? The Highland bonnet was worn in America, at the siege of Gibraltar, at the storming of Seringapatam in 1799, in the Peninsula, at Waterloo, in the Crimea, and during the Indian Mutiny. There were 3,200 Highland soldiers at the re he f of Lucknow who all wore the Highland bonnet. Both officers and men of the 93rd Highlanders wore it from the date of lauding, all through the Mutiny, including the re he f of Lucknow in 1858, and the action of Bareilly, which was fought on one of the hottest of days, and yet the 93rd lost fewer men from sunstroke than any other regiment. And with regard to cold climates, a gallant friend of his testified that in the Crimea, on the 14th of November, when a storm wrecked the tents, he had seen a great number of bonnets swept away into the muddy trenches at Balaklava, and they were afterwards recovered, rinsed and dried, and completely restored to their normal condition. It was a well-known fact that many feathered bonnets worn in the Crimea and during the Indian Mutiny were the very same bonnets and plumes which had waved on the field of Waterloo. The sentiment connected with the Highland bonnet should not be disregarded. It was impossible with safety to dispense with the little peculiarities which distinguished one regiment from another. Mr. Kinglake had borne testimony, in his History of the Crimean War. to the reality of the sentiment attached to this fantastic head-dress, which "struck a vague terror as of things unearthly" into the hearts of the Russians. He held that the sole reason of this, movement on the part of the War Office was the unsatisfactory manner in which the clothing was made at Pimlico. They did not know how to make a Highland bonnet at Pimlico, and it was not to be expected they could. He would suggest to the noble Lord a return to the system which prevailed not very long ago in Highland regiments, by which an annual contingent grant was allowed to the commanding officers of battalions, in order to supply the stuff, which could
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    not be got in London. A great saving would thereby be effected, even in the matter of feather bonnets. The present total cost of a feather bonnet was £3 6s. 3d. His proposal was that the Government should make a grant to the battalions they had put in kilts, and who were at present without any headdress at all. If an annual grant of 7s. per man were made to the commanding officers of battalions, he pledged his reputation for intelligence and foresight that the supply of feather bonnets could be kept up in a much more satisfactory degree, and with a saving of 10 s. 3d. per bonnet. Not only wore the bonnets of unsatisfactory material, but so was the whole of the Highland clothing supplied from Pimlico. The Glengarry caps were absolutely ridiculous. It was the same as regards the tartans, about which at Pimlico they knew nothing. The tartan was not only bad, but it was inadequate. If colonels of regiments were to make the kilts out of the 6¼ yards of material allowed, the result would be a little wretched scrimp kilt that was positively indecent. The minimum quantity of cloth required to make a kilt as it should be was 7½ yards, and the difference between that and the yards supplied was furnished by the officers of the Highland regiments. The Department ought to be ashamed to allow Her Majesty's officers to help to clothe their own men. He threw all the blame on the Pimlico Clothing Establishment, and on certain officials, who would like to see the whole of the British Army clothed alike in brown paper and red tape. It was, indeed, very hard, when the Highland soldiers were laying down their lives in Egypt, that they should receive what the regiments would regard as an unhandsome and unmerited slight.
    DR. FARQUHARSONsaid, he thought it was an unfortunate thing to interfere with the Highland bonnet without some urgent necessity for that interference being shown. He believed it was practically a tailor's question. The tailors discovered that a certain dress was inconvenient to make, and so they did all they could to discourage its use. As a matter of fact, it had been found to be both convenient and not costly, and there could be no reason why the Highland regiments should be deprived of it. It was a bonnet which stood a great

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    amount of wear and. tear, and not only that, but it was very popular in the Service. He thought it would be a very unfortunate thing to interfere with the sentiment which was in favour of the bonnet, because many men in the North of Scotland joined regiments in consequence of that sentiment. This feeling was fully recognized by the territorial system. There was a widespread feeling that the Committee of 1880 either had reported or would report in favour of the abolition of the feather bonnet; but the fact was that the Committee had not completed their labours; and he believed that if they had not been hampered by the instruction given to them not to go into the question of the feather bonnet at all, they would have unanimously reported in favour of its retention. In conclusion, he urged the Government to reconsider this question, and not let the tailors have it all their own way.
    COLONEL STANLEYsaid, they were disposed to speak of this question of dress as if it were a mere trifle; but those who knew the Service wore well aware that what scorned trifles to outsiders were greatly prized in the regiments. There was, no doubt, a general feeling in favour of the retention of the feather bonnet; and he hoped, though the noble Lord might not be able to renounce the previous decision arrived at, he would, at least, be able to say that the question would be kept open for further consideration.
    SIR PATRICK O'BRIENsaid, he would be the last to say anything against the feeling of Scotchmen in favour of the feather bonnet; but it was all humbug to say that the Scotch regiments were composed entirely of Scotchmen. He believed there were over 20 regiments in the Army with Scotch designations; but the fact was that many socalled Highland regiments were in no sense Highlanders. In the British Army there appeared, by a Return he had obtained, some 44,000 Irishmen and 14,000 Scotchmen; and, if the whole thing were gone into, it would be found that there were about five regiments which were essentially Scotch. He might instance the 42nd, who wore now recruiting in Nottingham, and the 75thGordon Highlanders. It was time to get rid of this humbug about the battles of England being all won by Scotchmen. No doubt the Highlanders would and did fight
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    as well as any men; but what was the use of hon. Members bringing forward: these questions, and endeavouring to make the British public be have that every regiment that distinguished itself was Scotch, when they knew that such was not the case. The fact was that there were few Highlanders in the Highland regiments, except the 42nd, the 78th, the 79th, the 92nd, and the 93rd. When the Irish Members asked for a regiment of Irish Guards they were laughed at; but here they were solemnly talking about feather bonnets and head decorations. Let them have their Highland dress, by all means, for Highlanders, than whom no braver or more gallant soldiers need be wished for: but not for the English and Irish 75th Gordon Highlanders, or other regiments with Scottish names, but few Scottish soldiers.
    MR. BRANDsaid, although he had the deepest and most unfeigned respect for the sentiments of Scotchmen, it was possible that the opinions of Sir Archibald Alison and Colonel Macpherson, who commanded the Black Watch, might be quite as accurate an expression of the feelings and opinions of Scotsmen as even that of the hon. Baronet (Sir Herbert Maxwell). The hon. Baronet opposite quoted from Kinglake descriptions of the Crimean War and the charge of the Highlanders; but they all admitted the gallantry of the Highland regiments, and the country was proud of them; but it was not the bonnet which enabled those regiments to behave with so much heroism. As to the Motion, it resolved itself into three parts. It alleged that it was desirable to maintain the distinctive uniforms of the territorial regiments. No attempt was made to interfere with the distinctive uniforms. Scotch regiments and all other regiments had distinctive badges. The second point was that the discontinuance of the feather bonnet, worn for upwards of a century in many victorious campaigns, was to he deprecated, he disputed this statement of fact. As far as he could gather, the present feather bonnet dated from As the House would remember, the question of territorial regiments was considered by a Committee, of which Sir Archibald Alison and Colonel Maepherson were Members. That Committee reported in favour of adding four distinctly Scotch; regiments to the Army; but they also

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    recommended that the Highland bonnet should be discontinued ns an article of uniform, on the grounds that it was costly, that it was not worn by soldiers on active service, that it had no national origin, and that it would be well to replace it by the low bonnet, whir-h had a distinctly national character. If it was not true that the feather bonnet was costly, then the agitation which had recently sprung up against its discontinuance would have been justifiable; but he thought it was a pity that there should be so much feeling are used on this matter, when there were so many other things upon which money might be more advantageously spent than on the Highland bonnet. As to its cost, a Return presented to the House showed that, with the exception of the Guards' bearskin, it was the most costly headdress in the Army. As to its usefulness, it should be noted that of recent years it had been the invariable rule with Scotch regiments ordered abroad to leave their feather bonnets at home. With regard to the question of money, he thought the House would have had reason to complain if the Government had asked this year for a further amount of money in order to issue these Highland bonnets; but, at the same time, the Secretary of State for War, Slaving; regard to the public opinion which had been expressed upon this question, would consent to defer the final settlement of this question for another year, although it must be understood that no money would be taken this year for the issue of the feather bonnet. With respect to the suggestion that the regiments should be supplied with clothing regimentally, he might mention that at one time the Household Cavalry were allowed a contingent fund for this purpose, and the result was that they incurred heavy liabilities, which the country had eventually to pay. The contingent fund was consequently withdrawn, and it would be unwise to go back to that system. The hon. Member had made charges against the Manufacturing Department at Pimlico which were entirely unfounded. For instance, he complained of the feather bonnets provided from Pimlico, and alleged that they could be obtained of better material and of less cost if supplied regimentally. Now, the feather bonnets had never been provided by the Clothing Department, no
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    feathers had ever been purchased by it, so that if the material was bad the fault lay with commanding officers, and not with the Clothing Department. Exactly the same reply held good with regard to the forage caps and the tartan. The amount of the material issued was in accordance with sealed patterns approved by the Adjutant General; and the material itself in both cases was supplied, not by the Clothing Department, but by well-known Scotch firms—the forage caps by Laughland and Sons, of Kilmarnock, and Wyllie and Sons, of Stewarton; the tartan by Wilson, of Bannockburn. He was compelled to say that it would be well, if the hon. Member would take care to make himself acquainted with the real facts of the case before making such serious charges against the Army Clothing Department at Pimlico. In conclusion, he would remind hon. Members that if there was any fault to find with the quality or amount of the material, the regiments had the power in their own hands of rejecting it.
    SIR JOHN HAYsaid, he hoped that next year the War Office would be able to accede to the strong wish which had been expressed in many quarters that the feather bonnet might be restored to the Highland regiments. As far as the question of cost was concerned, he was informed that the bonnets could be supplied at a cost of 7s. 5½d. each, and that they lasted eight years, the cost being in reality less than that of any other head-dress in the Army, with the exception of the brass helmets worn by the Household Cavalry. In his opinion the feather hat was not as expensive as other military head-dresses. He was grateful to the Government for having promised to reconsider their decision upon this matter.

  ARMY—EXAMINATION OF OFFICERS FOR PROMOTION.—OBSERVATIONS.
  EARL PERCY, who had a Notice upon the Paper of his intention to move—
  "That, in the opinion of this House, the present system of examination of Officers for promotion in the Army is unjust to Officers of long service and is an inadequate test of their efficiency, while in many instances it seriously interferes with the discharge of their professional duties,"
  said, he rose to call attention to the system of examination of officers in the

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  Army for promotion. He was sorry that he could not yield to the appeal of the Government that Members having Motions on the Paper for that evening should postpone them. The fact was that the opportunities for discussing; matters of public interest upon going into Committee of Supply had been reduced to so small a number that hon. Members were bound to avail them selves of such as presented themselves to the fullest extent. The question he had to bring under the notice of the House was of some considerable importance as affecting the well being and efficiency of the Army. The system of examination of officers in the Army was established for the first time when purchase was abolished, and he contended that that system had in no way increased the efficiency of the Army. In the way in which it was carried out it was unjust to officers of long service, and it certainly interfered with the proper discharge of their professional duties. In the course of his remarks he should confine his attention to the examination necessary to attain the rank of major. This examination was especially hard upon men of long service, who had had no reason to anticipate that they would be called upon to pass any other examination than the one they had to undergo at the commencement of their career. When these examinations were first instituted, they were only intended for the sub-lieutenants who desired to attain the rank of lieutenants, and even then there were many exceptions. There were many instances under the present system of officers being absolutely precluded from passing in consequence of their being employed on active service; and, therefore, the very officers who had proved themselves to be the most useful practically were just those who were placed at the greatest disadvantage. It was not until 1880 that these examinations were made compulsory. At that time it was felt that it would be so unjust and so unfair to require all officers to pass that an exception was made in favour of a number of them who had been captains for five years. So manifest had been the injustice of subjecting all officers to an examination at that date that a paragraph was put in the General Order to the effect that it would he clearly understood that the only object of inviting officers to pass these
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  examinations was to encourage them in their military reading. But how could an officer better improve himself in military knowledge than in the practice of his profession in time of war? Yet he should be able to show the House that the very officers who had been the most active in the practice of their profession were just those who were unable to pass their examinations. In 1881 matters be came still worse, because in that year a large number of majors wore added to each battalion, and these were required to pass an examination in tactics alone. [The noble Lord then referred to the cases of different captains, who had been on active service between 13 and 14 years, and who had been unable to pass the examination.] In his opinion these officers, who had purchased their commissions, ought to be allowed to be promoted without examination, or else they should have to pass one of a less severe character. A great many of these officers, who were alleged to be utterly unfit for promotion, were, nevertheless, deemed fit to be adjutants of Militia regiments; and the consequence of the present sys tem was that they- had to absent themselves for long periods from their regiments in order to prepare themselves for the examinations. He trusted the noble Lord would be able to give the House some assurance that something was about to be done in order to remove the hardship which was now inflicted on a great number of very deserving men.
  CAPTAIN MAXWELL-HERONsaid, that if the country thought that by the present system of examination they would get the best talent for the Army they were greatly mistaken. There were many officers who had done good regimental duty, who had acted gallantly in the field, and who had capacity enough to pass the examinations, but who did not think it necessary to shirk their regimental duties in order to join the Staff College. Very frequently the men who showed the greatest amount of mental and intellectual capacity did not make the best Staff officers, for he had known men of that sort who were oven unable to ride a horse. Still, he was of opinion that there must be some test for promotion. Under the existing system there were great inequalities. He would impress upon the noble Lord that, for the good of the Service, an inquiry should be instituted into the question.

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  He hoped that some of those officers whose promotion had been interfered with might have another chance, and that the country should not lose the services of those among them who had already distinguished themselves in the field.
  COLONEL MILNE-HOMEsaid, that there was considerable feeling in the Service on the subject of the noble Lord's Motion. He had before him a syllabus of the subjects of examination for officers who desired to be promoted, he by no means wished that educational tests should be abolished in the Army; but he could not but think that the authorities had gone too far. To those parts of the syllabus which related to regimental duties and drill he had no objection, as the more proficient an officer was in those subjects the better, he thought, too, that some acquaintance with military law, which formed another division, was very desirable. An officer ought, e. g., know something of the Army Discipline Acts and the law of enlistment. But it was rather too much to expect a knowledge of the history of the Military Code of England, which bad varied so greatly from time to time. Then there were subjects which wore popularly supposed to be the province of Senior Wranglers only. A young subaltern could hardly be expected to know much about the use of a theodolite or a sextant, or about so abstruse a science as spherical astronomy. What was an instrumental parallax, with which the unfortunate candidate was supposed to be familiar? He knew of one officer who had successfully passed the Staff College who was plucked for his promotion examination. He objected also to the present system on the ground that it encouraged cram rather than real study and he should be glad if the Secretary of State for War would knock "cram" on the head. The promotion examinations were much the same as the earlier ones, and it was found that officers had really to get up the same subjects as they had learnt before, and in the interval it was found that they had forgotten all they had before acquired. It was a great evil also that officers were so much taken away from their regimental duties by having to undergo the extra labour of preparing for those examinations.
  GENERAL FEILDENsaid, he thought that with regard to the class of older officers who had not passed into the Army through Sandhurst or the Militia, some modification of the examination might be made. Either it should he almost entirely one in military subjects, or in some other way it should be so designed as not to press too heavily upon the class of officers to whom he referred.
  SIR HENERY FLETCHERsaid, he desired to speak on behalf of officers who were now in the Army. He knew of one officer who was serving in India when he was promoted from the rank of captain to that of major. Having travelled from a distant part of India to Malta, his battalion was ordered to Egypt, so that he had but few opportunities of reading up for the examination which he would have to pass at a future period. After the operations in Egypt he arrived with his regiment at Cairo, and in a short time he was called upon to pass the examination for the rank of major. He failed in one slight particular, and was, in consequence, put back to the rank of captain. That was a hard case. The officer had been in the Service for 18 or 19 years, and it could not be expected that he would be so well up in all the matters connected with the examination as a younger man who had been in the Service but a short time. So disgusted was he at the treatment he had received that when he was put back to the rank of captain he immediately retired from the Service. In another case an officer who stood fifteenth on the list was promoted over the heads of two senior officers shortly before the latter went up for examination. It would, he thought, have been to the benefit of the Service if the authorities had allowed the appointment to stand over until the result of the examination had been made known. As the matter stood, the two officers in question would probably never have an opportunity of commanding the regiment in which they served. The examinations were, no doubt, necessary under the existing Warrants; but he submitted that some limit ought to be fixed in such cases as those to which he had referred. Many good and true officers would be lost to the Service if the present excessive examinations were continued.

  ARMY—STATE OF THE ARMY—RECRUITING. —OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. TOTTENHAM, who had given Notice that he would call attention to the present condition of the Army and the system of recruiting; and to move—
  "That a Select Committee be appointed to report upon the best mode of carrying into effect the recommendations of the Committee of Military Officers presided over by Lord Airey, embodied in their Report dated March, 1880,"
  said, it was a matter of regret that for many years now past the Army and its reorganization, or rather the revolutionizing of its system and constitution, had been made a battle-ground for Party warfare, and the field of ill-judged and ruinous experiments. On the Opposition side of the Rouse there had been no desire to bring the Army within that region. In endeavouring to combat the. revolutionary theories of experimental theories, and prevent the extinction of customs and traditions which had so long stood the test of times of peace and times of war, they considered they were best serving that country whose influence they believed those changes were calculated to lower and destroy. He might be told that to expose the weakness of the Army was not the best way of supporting and upholding that influence. To those who, to hide the shortcomings of a system for which they wore responsible, used such an argument as that, he would say that it was high time that the country should know into what a state the Army had drifted, and to what shifts it had been necessary to resort to keep up a semblance of efficiency on paper. The noble Marquess now at the head of the War Department was not personally responsible for the changes to which he was about to allude; but, anxious as he might be to defend the acts of his present and former Colleagues, he must be forced to admit that the results had not been what the country was led to expect. Since 1871 the Army had been subjected to the most violent changes, and with what result? Had we got a bettor, a more contented, or more efficient Army to-day than we had in 1870? Or had the Service grown in popularity with either officers or men? He said emphatically, No. The authorities were daily increasing the number of officers compulsorily turned adrift in the prime of life from no fault of their own, but from the accident and ill-luck of pro-
  74
  motion to a higher grade not having fallen to them before they reached an ago at which they were as competent for their duties and for active work as at any period of their service. These were men who entered the Service with the intention of devoting their lives to the service of the country, and who little thought that that, country would blast all their hopes of promotion, of advancement, and the fulfilment of an honourable career, by cutting them adrift in the prime of life, after they had given the greater part of their best years to its service, with a pittance, which, without a homo, a mess, or supplementary means or employment, was insufficient to support them in the position of gentlemen. The country could not expect such men to speak of such treatment as that in other terms than of discontent and disgust, and these sentiments could not but be felt among the non-commissioned officers and men as well, and added to their own list of grievances. By this system they were daily adding to the Pension List, which had grown from £.500,000 odd in 1871 to £1,300,000 odd in 1884. Neither commanding officers nor those under them wore likely to take the same interest in men who might at any moment be drafted into another battalion. In his judgment, and in the judgment of those who had the best knowledge on the subject, it also made the worst possible school for young officers, who were taught to study the characters and capabilities of their men; but they must feel that there was no object in learning the characters of men who might be, and must be, almost immediately sent away from them. The men, in like manner, instead of being taught to look upon their battalion and their company as their own, did not know at what time they might be sent away at the shortest notice. The system of linking together regiments which had neither custom, traditions, or local connection in common was unpopular in the highest degree in the Service, and was eminently destructive of that esprit de corps, which ought to be the very soul of the Army. He had received scores of letters from officers commanding battalions who know that he took an interest in the subject, and they all agreed that the system of making one battalion feed another was fatal to efficiency. All who had any knowledge of the subject—all, at least, who were without

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  prejudice—must disapprove of the system. As far as the Army in England was concerned, it was hardly an Army at all. They had heard some after-dinner speeches which were calculated to mislead in the strongest possible degree, and to point to a state of affairs very different from what actually existed, and they had had an example of this lately in a post-prandial speech of a noble Lord. The figures quoted, or rather misquoted, by one who ought to have been very careful how he quoted, were figures which he had vouched by his own signature. But if anyone would take the trouble to see for themselves the actual material of these figures, he would find n lamentable and a pitiable exhibition. To call them soldiers was a misnomer. They were boys of 16 and 17, enlisted under false representations made by themselves as to age, boys of not necessarily more than 5 feet 3 inches in height, or 32 inches in chest measurement, by a recent Warrant. The noble Marquess had declined that day to verify some figures which he (Mr. Tottenham) had put before the House in the form of a Question. He regretted that the noble Marquess had considered it expedient to do that, because he thought that he should be wanting in his duty to the House and the country if he did not show that the figures he had put on the Paper were not only absolutely correct, but were simply typical instances of what might be multiplied over and over again in every regiment. The noble Marquess was recently asked for a Return that would have given, in great measure, figures of a similar nature to those mentioned in his Question that day; but the noble Marquess had answered that it would not be for the benefit of the Service that those figures should be given in the case of individual regiments. Now, he felt himself obliged to bring forward certain figure, leaving the country to consider whether it was not for its interest that they should be stated. Two battalions which were in the 1st Brigade of the Division at Alder-shot had recently loft for the Mediterranean. They formed part of the first line of defence of this country. They sailed at a strength of 1,695 privates, of whom no fewer than 960 were of less than two years' service, and 770 were recruits of less than one year's service, while 519 of those men had never fired a shot, and
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  had gone through no course of instruction in musketry. Those men were supposed to be all of a suitable age to go upon service anywhere, cither in the field or in a tropical climate; but 521 were supposed to be under 20 years of age. though he was informed on good authority that 721 would be nearer the mark. It would be little wonder, then, if such men melted away like flies when they went upon service in the field. In the recent post-prandial speech to which he had alluded, certain figures were given by the Adjutant General of the Army; but they had to be contradicted in "another place" by the Under Secretary of State for War as having been given in mistake. Now, he said that figures of that kind had no business to be given in mistake; and even if they had boon critically accurate, they would be misleading in the highest degree. They were told in those figures that 91 per cent of the Army were over 20 years of age, 58 per cent over 5 feet 7 inches, in height, that 83 per cent were over 35 inches' chest measurement, while 78 per cent were of more that two years' service. That was not a proper method of conveying the facts to the country. In those figures, which were taken on the 1st of January, 1883, when they had over 11,000 men of the Reserve in the ranks,. which naturally increased to an abnormal extent the averages in all those different measurements, there were lumped, together Household Cavalry, Guards,: Artillery, and all arms of a higher standard than the lane, which necessarily increased the Line averages. He said that, to give the public any just idea of the averages, they must separate the Homo and Indian Armies and calculate them separately. But he would now I give the actual figures of three Line battalions, not selected, but the first three he could obtain from one English station, and the House would see what a different story was told. In those three battalions the total strength of non-commissioned officers and men was 2,230 on the 1st of January. Of those, 575 wore under 5 feet 5 inches, 1,017 under 5 feet 6 inches, 1,485 under 5 feet 7 inches, or 66 per cent of the whole; 773 were under 35 inches' chest measurement, or 34 per cent of the whole; 708 were under 20, or 31 per cent; and 934 were under one year's service, or 41 per cent. Those figures wore critically correct, and he would vouch for their

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  accuracy, and they were the same from which the general Annual Return was compiled by the Adjutant General. Of those battalion?, one was on the highest establishment, and among' the first for foreign service. One was in the intermediate, and the other in the lowest grade of numbers. In another battalion quartered at another station, on an establishment of 520, the average height of the whole battalion was 5 feet 4½ inches, and the average chest measurement 34½ inches. The Inspector General of Recruiting's Report for 1882 showed that 554 men per 1,000 were under 20 years of age; 495 per 1.000 were under 9st. 4lb. in weight, and 272 under 5 feet 5 inches in height. Those particulars were omitted from this year's Report for the first time, for what reason he knew not. The standard for the Line was now 5 inches lower than it was in 1869 and 1870, when it was 5 feet 8 inches. The standard for the Guards was now 1 inch lower than the Line in those years, He would next examine the monthly Returns by the light of actual facts; and the noble Marquess's objection to particularizing regiments in the Return he was recently asked for, and in his answer to him that evening, would be understood. On the 1st January, 1884, a battalion of the 60th Rifles had an establishment of 520 privates, and, according to the Return, 437 Effectives; but, as a matter of fact, six companies at head-quarters had only 85 men for duty, including the band. The Royal Irish Regiment on the same day had an establishment of 950 men, being one of the first for foreign service; and yet they had only 659 Effectives, being 291 men short of the establishment. The East Surrey had an establishment of 950, and 830 so-called Effectives, being 120 short of the establishment. The Northamptonshire 1st Battalion had an establishment of 520, the Effectives 345, or 175 short of the establishment; while the 2nd Battalion had an establishment of 800, and 615 Effectives, or 185 short of the establishment, making the number short on both battalions 365. According to the Return, the South Staffordshire Regiment had 520 men; but there were only 238 men in the ranks, or 282 men short of its proper strength. Worse cases, however, remained. The Dorsetshire Regiment, the 1st Battalion of which was at home, bad an establishment of 850 men;
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  but of this number only 402 wore Effective. The 2nd Battalion, which was in India, and which was supposed to keep up its strength, had only 613 Effective men, or 207 short, the whole regiment being 665 men out of both battalions short of its proper number. The Durham Light Infantry, the 1st Battalion of which was in India, had an establishment of 820 men; but only 459 were Effective, there being 361 short. The 2nd Battalion, which was at Gibraltar, had an establishment of 950 men, only 784 being Effective, and the number short in the battalion being 166. The number short in both battalions was 527. Out of the nine battalions he had mentioned, no less than 2,240 men were short, and in two regiments alone there were 1,182 men short. To go back to the 1st of October last, he wished lo point out that there was one battalion stationed at the Curragh, in Ireland—tho Rifle Brigade—who had on its establishment 539 men, being 19 men over its establishment. On the same day, however, that battalion had 12 men tit for guard or garrison duyt—12 men out of a so-called effective establishment of 539 private soldiers. Now, he thought that a stronger case than that could hardly be made out. He defied the noble Marquess opposite, or those who were responsible for the administration of the War Department, to controvert the figures he had brought forward. [The Marquess of HARTING-TON: Which battalion?] The 2nd Battalion of the Rifle Brigade, stationed at the Curragh. The figures he had submitted to the House were taken from the monthly Return and the Annual Return which were presented to Parliament, and which were supposed to represent the true state of the facts. These were only typical cases, but they were cases which would apply to the great majority of regiments in the Service to a greater or less degree. He held that it was criminal weakness on the part of those who were responsible for this state of things to continue to deceive the country. These were the battalions on which they had to rely for defence, and many of them would compose their first line, in the event of national danger, or in the case of a European war. He had seen some of those battalions on parade himself. The commanding officer of one of them made the observation to him—" The companies which you and I commanded here in

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  different regiments 25 years ago would have walked through my entire regiment to-day." That he fully be believed, for a more miserable exhibition than the battalions he was speaking of he had never seen. He believed that the expression of that commanding officer was literally true; and all he could say was, God help the country in the hour when she had to be defended by such an array as he had seen. The boys were, no doubt, good boys enough, if time was given to them to grow; but it must be remembered that while the grass was growing the horse was starving. It was high time that the country should know that they were paying, not for an effective, but for a non-effective, Army at home. The short service system, as hitherto carried out, was a failure pure and simple. Under it a man had no sooner been made into a soldier than he was sent into the Reserve, to the detriment of his own regiment and of the first line of which it formed a part. Without its old soldiers, and consisting of nothing but young men and recruits, a regiment would not go through the same amount of work, and could not be relied upon in the hour of trial. They had had instances of that in Zululand and elsewhere; and to the mind of the soldier it was an axiom of military experience. This was not a new theory of modern times. It was one insisted upon by the Duke of Wellington, the greatest soldier of modern days. In his letters to the Prince Consort, recently published, the Duke of Wellington said—
  "The example, the life and soul of the regiment and squads is, under the officers, in the old soldiers who have served 10, or nearly 10 years, and have attained 27 or 28 years of ago."
  He also stated that the conduct of the regiment in all situations, and particularly under the fire of the enemy, depended upon the countenance and example of the old soldiers. The Duke of Wellington also referred to the painful impression made upon the minds of the officers by the Act of Parliament limiting the period of enlistment to 10 years. What stronger evidence could the country have than the opinion of this, the first soldier of the century—that was to say, if soldiers' opinions connected with their own profession were to be of any avail at all? What stronger expression of opinion than this could be adduced; and whoso were the opinions, he should like to know, which
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  could be set against those of the conqueror in a hundred fights, and whoso practical knowledge, extending over the campaigns of years, dwarfed to insignificance those of recent date, aided by every appliance which science could suggest? The opinion of the great Duke was one which was an article of faith in the minds of 99 out of every 100 soldiers in the Service past and present. The opinion was that oil the old soldiers the morale of the regiment, the steadiness, the smartness, the discipline, the pride in their regiments and in the Service depended, and, above all, that esprit de corps which was an element which recent innovations had done so much to completely and utterly destroy—an. element which theoretical civilians, who had no practical knowledge of the influence it had upon the regiments in the Service, pooh-poohed by their acts, while they uphold it by their words. Esprit de corps was not necessarily acquired by a recruit with his uniform. It was by what he saw and heard, and the force of example set him by old and experienced soldiers with whom he associated in his daily life, that he acquired by degrees those habits of discipline and unquestioning obedience to his officers. If they eliminated from the ranks all those whoso service and long training made them objects of respect and attention on the part of the recruits, they took away from these recruits that feeling of emulation which prompted them to try and become smart and efficient soldiers. A soldier could be made from average material fit to go on sentry or to take his part in a drill or parade in the course of a year; but they must also take into consideration that a soldier was something more than a military machine. The man whom they might make into a soldier in a year was not a soldier in the full and true sense of the word, and he held that they could not make a soldier under a minimum of at least five years' service. That, at the present time, was the very period at which he was shortly to be turned out of the Service into the Reserve, and just at the time when he was able to render some equivalent to the State for what he had cost it. His contention was that they were living in a foul's paradise. He supposed that nothing would house those who were holding the reins of government, and those who were responsible for the present state of the Army, until

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  such another storm burst upon this country as had burst upon their neighbours across the Channel, who, when the storm burst, found themselves totally unprepared. That might be our case any day. We were, with our eyes open, following a system which they had had ample warning was a fatal one, and which had been tried and found wanting. It was a system which had been condemned by even' person who was most competent to judge of it. It was probable that he should be told that, in the event of need, these boys he had described would be replaced by Reserve men. and that they would not be sent abroad with their battalions. This had been done in the case of the battalions going to Egypt, and notably in the case of the 87th Regiment, now called the Royal Irish Fusiliers. When that battalion went to Egypt, in 1882. it was obliged to leave 400 recruits behind, who were not of age, or who had not gone through the usual training of recruits qualifying them to go on foreign service. They were filled up by au equivalent number of men from the he -serve. This really amounted to turning their second line of defence into their first line. What was the use of having au effective strength on paper, if they were unable to produce it in the flesh under arms when the pinch came? For years they had now been sacrificing their Army to the creation of a shadowy Re-serve, and with the result that neither was efficient in point of numbers, and the first line was inefficient in point of effective qualities. Lord Card well, the father of this scheme, calculated, in 1871, that in 12 years a First Reserve would be created of 178,000 men. and Pensioners 13,493, making a total of 191,493. But in July, 1882, there were only 37,795 men of all classes. Each battalion should be a distinct unit, and once a. man was attached to a battalion he should continue with that battalion during- his Colour service, without being liable to arbitrary transfer. To enable each battalion to be kept up in an efficient state, it would be necessary considerably to increase the number of men at the depôts. Sooner or later they would have to increase the number of their private soldiers. During the last four years the tendency had been all that way. The number on the regimental establishment—he drew a distinction between that and other establishments, such, as the Stall'—
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  in 1880–1 was 123,791; and the present Estimates provided for 130,114 men, being an increase, step by step, of 6,323 in four years. That was a step in the right direction, but it was not sufficient. It would be necessary very considerably to increase the strength of the Army at all events of the rank and file. This, he understood, was the opinion not only of military critics, but of those responsible for the Army. Unless the Army was to cease to exist as an Army, the number of men must be increased. The country must make up its mind to have the Army in a state of efficiency, and supply the necessary men and the necessary funds. Turning to the Auxiliary Forces, he found that for the year 1882 the Militia were 23,638 men short, the Yeomanry 3,275, and the Volunteers 38,781, making a total of 65,694 men short of the fixed establishment. They were endeavouring to do with a standing Army of 191.000 men what was fairly the work of 250,000. Supposing that they were to increase their Army to the extent that he suggested, by increasing the establishment of the depôt to enable them to feed both battalions, what would they be doing in comparison with Continental countries? Russia, with a population of 84.000,000, had a standing: Army of 841,000 men; Germany, whose population was 45,000,000, had an Army of 445.000 men; while France, with a population of 37,000,000. had an Army of 496,000 men. England ruled over no less than 234,000,000 people, and yet had only an Army, including her Indian Establishment, "of 314,000. These figures showed that, while Franco had one soldier to every 74 persons, and Russia and Germany one to every 100 persons, England, with nearly treble the population of Russia, and more than six times that of France, had only one in every 715 persons. With such a disproportion of military force as this, the least that the country could expect was to have its Army in a state of thorough efficiency, and that it should get value for the heavy bill it had to pay. In 1880, when Lord Airey's Committee presented their Report, they were informed that at the rate of depletion then in progress 30,000 recruits would be annually required to keep the Army up to its establishment. But the number recruited short of this in 1883 was 3,000, which had to be added to previous deficiencies in 1881 and 1882. And to

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  this, again, must be added the number of men whose time had expired, and who had come homo and been discharged into the Reserve during the relief season. The country must not imagine that because 33,000 recruits were passed into the Service during the year the whole of those 33,000 were still in the Service. Taking the Annual Returns of 1882, it would be seen that out of the whole 23,395 enlisted only 21,247 were serving at a date three months afterwards, being 2,148, or 91 per 1,000, less—nearly 1–10th of the whole. Of these no less than 43·9 per 1,000 had purchased their discharge; and the balance was made up of those who had broken down, deserted, or who were found medically unfit. In the previous year the figures were even larger, showing, out of a total recruited of 25,863, a loss from the same causes of 2,568 men, or 100 men per 1,000. Taking the same rates for the past year, it followed that the number shown as recruited would not in reality be 33,000, but 3,000 less; or 30,000, as against, the 36,000 Lord Airey's Committee informed the country was what would be required. During the throe years since that Report was presented, the actual numbers of recruits joining and remaining in the Service after three months was no loss than 35,460 short of what they were then informed by the most competent and exhaustive inquiry would be required for the service of the country; and, instead of 108,000 men, they had only got 74,542. It must also be remembered that as much as £12 bounty had been given during the past year to upwards of 6,000 men in India to re-engage. Where would the numbers and efficiency of the Army be now without this extra expenditure, which had bean rendered absolutely necessary by the absence of men to make up the required drafts from home? He might be told they could not get men enough even at a reduced standard. There were, however, plenty of men if they chose to pay them. If they could not get men for a shilling they must pay more. So long ago as 1872 the desirability of all recruits joining and being drilled at the depôt was recognized by the military authorities; and on the 22nd of February, 1872, His Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief issued a Memorandum recommending the plan of regiments consisting of three distinct bodies, and that all recruits should be raised
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  and drilled at depôts. The Committee which was then sitting, consisting of General M'Dougall, Lord Wolseley, and others, recognized also the desirability of this system; and a General Order was issued in April, 1873, laying this down. At that time it was contemplated that the system of one battalion feeding the other should prevail, and that all men should be interchangeable between the two battalions. That system was again recognized and accepted by the Committee which sat in March, 1876, presided over by the right hon. and gallant Member for North Lancashire (Colonel Stanley), and it remained in vogue till June, 1879, when, in consequence of the constant complaints of defects and difficulty of working, the Secretary of State for War appointed the Committee known as Lord Airey's Committee. That Committee went into the whole subject exhaustively, and reported in March, 1880; and to that Report he desired to draw the special attention of the House, as the expression of opinion of a body of officers of the greatest experience, who. having fully considered the matter from the military point of view, came to a unanimous conclusion as to the defects of the system. Like that Committee, he had limited his observations to the Infantry of the Line, as it was in that branch of the Service that the system had most conspicuously broken down. It had broken down in; time of peace, when no strain was upon it—not even that of a small war; and it had been worse when such small wars had occurred. It was to avoid the chance of such a disaster as had been I foreshadowed in some of the letters he I had read that he had felt it his duty to: call the attention of the House and the country to the situation. Speaking of the scheme which had been carried out in 1872, the Report, in paragraph 16, said that the scheme did not provide any distinct and separate preparation for those, more frequent wars, for which the services of the British Army were so frequently required, and which were as onerous on the troops engaged as were the greatest wars, and which required that the men employed should be as thoroughly and fully trained as possible., the Report then showed the urgent necessity of making provision for such: smaller wars, by giving a list of the 42: last wars in which the country had been I engaged between the years 1831 and

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  1880. In paragraph 22 it was said that the demands for men to keep the service battalions at the established strength had been so great that, as a rule, it had been impossible to obtain recruits at the depots, and constant recourse had been had to battalions at home to supply drafts to affiliated battalions abroad, the battalions at homo being therefore necessarily denuded of their men and, again, that great difficulty was anticipated as the older long-service men disappeared in obtaining such a body of non-commissioned officers as ought at all times to exist in a well-conditioned army. The Report went on to say that from the practice as it at present existed by which recruits were kept for a short time at the depôt and then passed on to the battalion, where they remained for a few months and were then again passed on to other battalions, the interest of recruits in obtaining the good opinion of their officers was lessoned, and discipline suffered in consequence. The evidence of the Adjutant General of that date was then quoted in the Report, in the course of which he described the system of calling for volunteers from other regiments as radically vicious, and the most pernicious which the wit of man could devise." As to non-commissioned officers, the Report stated that a great deal of evidence had been taken from Stall and regimental officers, all of which pointed to the great difficulty experienced in obtaining non-commissioned officers of the same type as those which were obtainable under the long-service system, and which showed that a general apprehension existed that, unless effectual measures were taken to remedy that evil, the discipline of the Army would be most seriously affected; and in consequence of that the Report later on proceeded to recommend an alteration in the term of service. The Committee laid down four cardinal points—namely, that the term of service should be altered, that the numbers of the Army must be increased, if its efficiency was to be preserved, that the system of one battalion feeding another should be abolished, and that once a man was posted to a battalion he should remain in it during his Colour service. He apologized to the House for having troubled it with so many extracts; but he could not possibly convey a clearer idea of the situation than by quoting the words of those distinguished officers themselves, instead of attempting
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  to put it into his own words. In the words with which they concluded they showed that the question of expense had not been lost sight of by them. It was a question of expense; but the real question for a rich and powerful country was, whether she would be content with an indifferent article and indifferent service, when, by paying a comparatively small further sum, she could have that which she expected her statesmen to provide her with? He maintained that in the presence of such evidence and recommendations as that Report contained the country would be deliberately flying in the face of Providence if, for the paltry saving of a few hundred thousand pounds, she declined to listen to and be guided by the advice and opinions of such well-chosen and trusty servants. He believed had shown a case which made it imperative almost on Parliament not to ignore and pigeon-hole such a Report as that for the sake of bolstering up a system which, even to those without practical knowledge, was so transparently faulty. What he asked was a full inquiry into the matter from a financial point of view, and the appointment of a Committee which should supplement the he port of those, distinguished officers by further opinion and advice as to the best mode of carrying their recommendations into effect. He earnestly begged the Government to satisfy the legitimate desire of the country and the Army for the fullest information on so important a subject.
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, it would be convenient at that point to make a few remarks upon the two topics which had been brought forward by the noble Lord the Member for North Northumberland (Karl Percy) and the hon. Member who had just sat down. The noble Lord called the attention of the House to the system of examination of officers of the Army—a subject upon which he had recently put several Questions to him. He did not deny that there were some cases of hardship, and he could assure the noble Lord that he sympathized very much with the case of those officers who had recently returned from service, and, having failed in their examinations, had been succeeded by junior officers. But those cases were extremely rare, and with care on the part of the officers themselves would never happen. It was open to officers to pass their examinations at any time

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  within one year of receiving their captain's commission. It would only be common prudence to pass that examination at the earliest possible time. But whenever any reasonable ground of excuse could be given—such as foreign service or other duties—for a man's not having gone through a garrison course in preparation for an examination, he was not compelled to go through the examination before being promoted, but was provisionally promoted, and had an opportunity of passing through a garrison class, and corning up for his examination afterwards. The cases of hardship were those of officers coming up before the time had expired, and failing; so that if a vacancy had occurred after their failure they were superseded by junior officers. In all those cases, if officers had accepted provisional promotion, and not gone in for examinations until they had prepared themselves, that supersession would not have occurred. The noble Earl had entered into discussion of several individual cases; but as he had not mentioned any names, it was impossible for him (the Marquess of Hartington) to follow him info these cases.
  EARL PERCYwas understood to say that he would be glad to furnish the noble Lord with the particulars of the cases to which he had referred.
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: The noble Lord had referred to officers who had served in India. He had been told that the papers done in examinations by officers in India were very much better than most of those that were done at home. Then it was not incumbent on an officer who had gone through the Afghan War, or other active service, to go in for his examination until he had had an opportunity of preparing himself. The subjects in which officers were examined were tactics, military law, field fortification, and military topography. Ail those were subjects with which an officer ought to be well acquainted; and they were the same subjects which qualified a man for promotion from the ranks. No change had been made in the standard of examinations, and there had been no increase in the difficulty of the papers. There was every disposition shown to pass an officer who showed a general knowledge rather than to pluck candidates by catch questions. The noble Lord had said that many more officers had recently failed than was for-
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  merly the case. That might be in consequence of the increase since 1880 in the number of examinations for majorities. The noble Lord said, with some feeling, that those officers wore purchase officers, and had almost a right to their promotion. He believed that no purchase captains had been compelled to undergo this examination, though the rule, no doubt, app he d to a purchase lieutenant who had not purchased a captaincy. It was not denied by the hon. and gallant Member for Berwick-on-Tweed (Colonel Milne-Home) that an examination of some sort ought, to be maintained. If that were so, he did not sec what alteration the hon. and gallant Gentleman thought ought to be made. He had stated what were the subjects of examination, and the House would feel that they were such as officers ought to be tested in. As he had said, he sympathized very much with officers—in some cases with distinguished services—who had suffered supersession; but he did not see how it was possible to have a different standard of examination. All was done that could be done to allow an officer to choose his own time, and when abroad to qualify him to take provisional promotion until he was ready for examination. He had been asked to reconsider the expediency of these examinations; but he did not think it would be in the interest of the Army or the officers to make any material change. All he could undertake was to have a careful inquiry made into the character of the examination, in order to see whether there was any foundation for the allegation or suspicion that it was unduly difficult. That he would undertake should be done. He would now say a few words upon the somewhat lengthy speech of the hon. Member for Leitrim (Mr. Tottenham). He hoped the House would not think him guilty of any disrespect to the hon. Gentleman if he did not follow him through all the topics of that speech. There were some of them which he should think it his duty to deal with when the House got into Committee, which he hoped they would shortly be allowed to do. But even if the subject had been brought forward on another evening, when it would be possible for him to go into greater details, it would hardly be becoming in him to follow a statement so minute and detailed without time for

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  full consideration. The hon. Member began by referring to the grievance felt by officers in consequence of their compulsory retirement from the regiments of their choice. But we were scarcely prepared to go back to the point to which we should be obliged to go if we were to re-open the position of the officers of the Army. Compulsory retirement was owing to the recommendations of Lord Penzance's Commission, which was appointed to consider what steps were necessary to secure a due flow of promotion; and several changes had been introduced to mitigate the hardships arising from the system, and which had the effect of keeping many officers in the Army who otherwise would have had to retire. The hon. Gentleman attacked the system of double battalions, under which a battalion at homo supp he d with men the battalion abroad. It was almost, too late to go back upon that subject also. In 1881. Lord Airey's Committee reported, and the Report was laid upon the Table, and was fresh in the recollection of every one who took an interest in the subject. His right hon. Friend (Mr. Guilders), in moving the Army Estimates in 1881, made a statement of very great importance, when he pointed out that it was impossible at that time to remain where we were, and that we must either go forward in the direction indicated by the Committee presided over by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for North Lancashire (Colonel Stanley), or go back in the direction advocated by every opponent of short service and recommended by the Committee over which Lord Airey presided. He could point out the passage in the speech in which his right hon. Friend clearly described the alternative, and asked whether the House was prepared to undo a great deal of what had been done in recent years, and to adopt single battalions and enormous depôts. That was the time for the House to adopt the recommendation of Lord Airey's Committee: but, on the contrary, it adhered to the system of double battalions and of a common depôt. It appeared to him impossible now, after the lapse of three years, that the House should be asked to pull to pieces the system which it had deliberately adopted, which was gradually coming into operation, and winch certainly had not yet had a full trial.
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  The hon. Gentleman said, in a great variety of forms, and with much variety of illustration, that the Army was nothing but a sham. He did not accept a great many of the hon. Gentleman's statements; but it was impossible for him to follow those statements in detail. The hon. Gentleman said that he had very good reason for refusing to give the details of particular battalions. The rule on that subject had been laid down by his Predecessor, and he thought there was sufficient reason for it. In many cases it would be invidious to give details of the position of particular regiments or battalions. Exceptional circumstances of all sorts might tend to make their position compare unfavourably with that of other regimen Is or battalions, and it might be extremely painful to the feelings of the commanding officers and of the men if such a comparison was instituted. In the first place, the comparison could not be limited to the particulars suggested by the hon. Gentleman and his Friends. If once they gave certain particulars, they could not stop there. They would I be asked to give particulars of all sorts with regard to crime and conduct. That appeared extremely dangerous. He was quite willing to admit that the two battalions which left the other day for the Mediterranean contained a very large number of young soldiers. But that was because there was a great deficiency of the numbers in India, and those battalions had to supply very largo drafts for the battalions serving there. These battalions ought not to have supp he d drafts to India at all: and, therefore, the condition of those battalions was not a fair test of what the Army arrangements would be under other circumstances. Although he objected to giving figures of particular regiments, he was quite prepared to give some general figures as to the length of service of the men divided into large divisions; for instance, men at home and men abroad; but it would have been observed by the House that the hon. Member's statement was confined almost entirely to the state of the Army at home. He admitted that at home the Army was young; and how any man, considering the fact that they had to employ a large number of men in India and abroad, could be under any misapprehension as to that, completely

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  passed his comprehension. What was the charge against the soldiers? The hon. Member quoted some great military authority in favour of old soldiers; but no Continental Army was composed exclusively, or even mainly, of old soldiers. He regretted that the hon. Member had referred to cases in which, in the hon. Member's opinion, our Army had recently failed to distinguish itself, in Zululand and in the Transvaal. Those reverses were of a character to which every Army must be exposed from time to time; but, whatever they might think of the policy of recent military operations in the Soudan, no Member would deny that their soldiers, on the two occasions of recent battles, had shown great courage and steadiness. One would have supposed that General Graham's force was entirely composed of old soldiers. That was not the case. There were three Infantry battalions at E1 Teb 2,340 strong, of whom 470 were under one year's service, and 1,375 were under three years' service. If these engagements had ended in reverses, no doubt the numbers would have been eagerly quoted as showing the worth-lessness of young men; but as they had resulted in obtaining great credit, probably they would hear little of the ages of the troops engaged. Nothing had been said about the Army abroad. That was composed of men who were the first exposed to foreign service, and to whose ago and training, therefore, the greatest importance attached. The Army at-home would be, and must be, acknowledged to be a training school for the Army abroad, in India and elsewhere; and in case they had to call on their Home Army they must rely on the Reserves. He would presently go into statistics on this question; but it would at once appear that the calling out of the Reserves immediately altered the situation, and they had at once an Army composed mainly of veterans. He regretted that the Forms of the House did not permit the hon. Member to move his Resolution. No doubt the Motion had an innocent look; but he would gladly have seen how many hon. Members would have been prepared to follow the hon. Member in his request for a Committee. He did not conceal from them that the alteration proposed was not only a radical departure from the scheme now adopted by both Parties in
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  the House, but it contemplated an enormous addition of 70.000 or 80,000 men to the present establishment.
  MR. TOTTENHAM: I never suggested anything of the kind.
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: said, that, in the hon. Member's opinion, our present Army was doing work which required a much greater Army, and that was the same thing. But if the House desired an Army composed of men of longer service, it was perfectly in their power to have it, without destroying the arrangements now existing; but if they desired to have an Army of longer service there was no alternative but to increase their establishment; and he did not think, considering that the Army had proved sufficient for all foreign service, and that they had at home a large and increasing number of men in the Reserve, thereby making them perfectly secure against any emergency, that the House would be inclined to make any large addition until it had been conclusively proved that the military duties and exigencies of the Empire, both at home and abroad, could not be provided for without further calling upon the taxpayer. It would however, be his duty, when the House was in Committee, to state the reasons for which the Government considered that some increase of the establishment ought to be asked for in the present year. In their opinion, those additions would be sufficient for present needs; but, although he was very far from saying that at some future time the establishment should not be increased, he protested against the idea that it ought to be increased simply because some battalions n a peace establishment were rather below their authorized numbers. With these remarks he trusted ho; might be allowed to lay before the House the state of things which he had described with regard to the Army; and I he appealed to hon. Members to postpone further discussion until after that statement, when it could be carried on with far greater effect and ability.
  LORD EUSTACE CECILsaid, he was not present at the time; but he was glad to hear that the noble Marquess was quite prepared to reconsider the character of the examinations which certain officers had undergone.
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: I did not say that. I did not say I was prepared to make any alteration in the

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  character of the examinations: but that I would inquire whether there had been any undue stringency in the papers set, and whether there was any foundation in the allegation that marks had been more sparingly given.
  LORD EUSTACE CECILsaid, he was sorry he had misunderstood what had fallen from the noble Marquess. He thought there was a very great grievance felt by many, and he trusted that the impression that an attempt had been made to get rid of a certain number of gentlemen would prove unfounded. He regretted that there had hardly been a quorum in the House during this discussion; it was not a compliment to the Army or to the constituencies that the attendance should be so small. During the Recess the noble Marquess drew a commiserating cheer from an audience by saying that he was opposed by a phalanx, of Army officers who were always asking for more. As one of the phalanx, he said that all he asked for was efficiency. The real question was as to the waste of the Army. The question was not how many recruits we could enlist in a year—whether 35,000 or 40,000—but how many men fit for foreign service we could obtain; and he held that we were not able to obtain the seasoned men we ought to have for foreign service. There were only two remedies, and both would cost money. One was the old plan, which had never failed, of giving a bounty. It was had recourse to last year, when £12 was given to every man in India who agreed to continue his service; and the result was the obtaining of a largo number of recruits. The objection to giving a bounty in this country was that bad men enlisted over and over again, and that could be prevented only by marking or cupping; but sentiment would not hear of this remedy, and therefore we had to do away with the bounty system. Unfortunately, sentiment was a very expensive thing; and if the Ministerial Party would deal in a sentimental way with the Army, and not in a reasonable and practical manner, the country would have to pay for it. Another alternative was to enlist young soldiers, as boys were enlisted for the Navy, and to train them at camps, depôts, or schools. But that system was a very expensive one, although the systematic adoption of it might reduce the expense. A certain
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  amount of work was got out of a boy on board ship, but it could not be got in the same way out of a young soldier. There was nothing new in these debates he was sorry to say. Objections were yearly raised and suggestions made, and the Ministerial Party were responsible for their not being carried out. He could not understand why the noble Marquess should have refused to give the ages of the men in two battalions that were not going to the war. The late Government did not refuse to give the ages of the men who were sent to Zululand. He could not understand this policy of concealment, and why the noble Marquess should not make a clean breast of it. The noble Marquess had given the House some figures as to the ago of some of the troops in the Soudan; but unless he gave the statistics on the subject in full, neither the House nor the country would be able to form an opinion as to the actual age of the British troops engaged there. It had been stated in a morning journal of that day that one or two of the battalions now engaged in the Soudan were unfit for prolonged service in that part of the world. It was not any doubt of the gallantry of our troops engaged there, but the fear that they were unable to stand the strain of a prolonged and severe campaign, that led him to press Her Majesty's Government upon this point. If our troops were unfit for such severe service the matter was a very serious one to a great Empire like this. It mattered not what Government was in Office—whether the Head of the Government was in favour of a spirited foreign policy, or was pledged to peace and to avoid blood-guiltiness and the extension of the Empire—tho burdens of and the strain upon our Army increased year by year. We had at the present time Egypt upon our hands, and it was possible that we might have to provide for the permanent occupation of the Soudan. In these circumstances the state of the British Army was of the utmost importance; and when they were told by everyone competent to judge—by every officer of the Army from the highest to the lowest—that that Army was not in an efficient state, he did not think that the House was bound to be satisfied with the simple official denial, which was not supported by facts or figures. His Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge, at the Mansion House, had expressed himself

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  in very decided terms on t he subject. His Royal Highness had said that, although many of the regiments serving abroad were in a state of efficiency, the I condition of the Army at homo was not such as be could wish, it being so reduced in numbers that it was scarcely able to discharge the duties it had to perform, and that it was for the country to say whether that state of things should continue or not. Did the House believe the Duke of Cambridge or the Secretary for War upon this point? He asked the noble Lord why the responsible Chief of the Army, with his public character and his official knowledge, should say one thing and the Secretary for War something very like another. He did not wish to be hard upon the noble Lord. What he wished the noble Lord to do was to make a clean breast of the matter to the House, and if he did so the thanks of the country would be due to him. If the noble Lord only had the courage of his opinions, and would take steps to put the Army into a thorough state of efficiency, neither that House nor the country would begrudge him the money required for the purpose. He had always advocated the greater use of coloured troops in hot climates. In the future we should have a fine opportunity of doing with the gallant race who had opposed us in the Soudan what Lord Chatham did with the Scotch Highlanders, he could not but think that line recruits would abound in that part of the world in the future. If we could find coloured recruits in India, he did not see why we could not obtain Arab recruits who would make good soldiers, and prove of great use in holding the Red Sea littoral where English troops could hardly live. Everybody knew what it cost us to put into line a comparatively very small Army; and if any War Minister could discover the means of increasing that Army in the matter of age and in the matter of size by a reasonable expenditure, he would solve the problem which they had all been talking about during the last 20 years. He trusted that the noble Lord would, in the statement he was about to make, be able to inform them that he had devised some scheme for giving us a more efficient Army at the least possible cost to the country.
  MAJOR GENERAL ALEXANDERsaid, he thought the House was much indebted
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  to the hon. Member (Mr. Tottenham) for his interesting speech on a highly important subject. The action of the hon. Member was the more meritorious when they considered how difficult it was at the present time to of further most friendly criticism on the condition of the Army without exposing themselves to the denunciation of what the hon. Gentleman had called the post-prandial orations of distinguished military officials. The Adjutant General showed himself to be very impatient with those who differed from him on the subject of recruiting, and quoted stale statistics to prove him self in the right and his critics in the wrong. Even the great Lord Wolseley, like humbler mortals, might occasionally fall into error; but it seemed strange that he should have imagined in the month of January that he was quoting from a Return which seldom or never appeared before October. Although they were quite willing to acknowledge the error to be unintentional, they were at liberty to set aside the statistics of the Adjutant General as entirely misleading and fallacious, because they applied to a state of things which doubt less existed in 1882, but which did not exist in 1883. There was, however, in the Adjutant General's speech one fact which was perfectly accurate—namely, that in 1883 we enlisted over 33,000 recruits: but were those recruits enlisted upon the same terms and under the same conditions as the much smaller number who passed into the Service in 1882? If not, the comparison between the two years fell to the ground. The Adjutant General was perfectly aware that in April last a General Order was issued relaxing all the conditions as to ago, height, and chest measurement that were so emphatically insisted upon by the late Secretary of State for War. If the recruits of 1883 had been enlisted upon the same conditions as prevailed, in 1882 the satisfaction of Lord Wolseley would have been perfectly natural; but under the actual circumstances he failed to see any cause for elation. It had been suggested to him that many of the recruits obtained in 1883 would have gone into the Militia if they had not enlisted into the Army. As the Militia was a component part of the Army, it was a matter for regret that it should be below its strength. Lord Wolseley had stated that by the system of short service

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  what he pleased to term the miserable system of bounty had been got rid of., The noble Lord had. however, succeeded, by offering largo bounties, in inducing more than 6,000 men in India to extend; their service with the Colours. He failed to see the distinction which Lord Wolseley drew between a bounty offered on enlistment and one offered on re-enlistment. At the festive board of the Artists Lord Wolseley stated that England at no time of her existence had possessed an Army more worthy of the nation than the present one; but before the Channel Tunnel Committee he said—
  "If every available man were turned out under arms we should have 500,000 men with muskets—I will not call them soldiers."
  By which of these two statements did Lord "Wolseley elect to stand, for they I could not be "both right? They flatly contradicted each other. The Inspector; General of Recruiting, admitting that many commanding officers found fault with the ago of the men enlisted, said that lads of 18 were undoubtedly young and required time to develop, but that their youth was a fault on the right side. But there was no time for recruits of 18 to develop, for they passed into the Reserve at the age of 21. The Times had said that those who commented on the extreme youth of recruits were de-tractors of our young soldiers. He wished to say that he had never impugned the courage or steadiness of our young soldiers; but he contended that it was not wise, politic, or humane to tax the lads beyond their strength, for it was impossible for them to do the work of full-grown men.
  SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOTsaid, he would not detain the House long; but this was one of those opportunities: which, he thought, everyone who was interested in the welfare and well-being of his country was bound to avail himself of. Before the noble Marquess made his statement to the House, he wished to put two or three pertinent questions to him, upon which he hoped to obtain an explicit declaration. The one thing which they all felt was that, in the event of a great emergency, they would not have sufficient men to fight their battles. They thought the Army was neglected and inefficient; and he should like the noble Marquess to state the number of fighting men who could be put into the field if the occasion
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  should require. They were paying £16,000,000 and more for their Army at home and in the Colonies. India paid for the Army we sent there; but we paid for what was supposed to be a perfect machine at home. He had made a careful calculation of the number of men they could at that moment put into line, and he believed they could not find more than 31,000 men. They had something like 70 battalions, including Guards, and to raise them to war strength it would be necessary to take absolutely the whole of the Reserve, including the Militia Reserve. He wanted the noble Marquess to say why he thought the Reserve were the proper persons to fill up their first line in the Army—namely, the Army they ought to have at home; because it they had to do that it was virtually returning to the old system of putting absolutely and at once all of the men into the field, with no Reserve whatever to fall back upon. At present they had 30,000 men in Ireland; 10,000 in Egypt; and in the event of any other strain occurring, if they wanted to send out 20,000 or 30,000 men, it would be impossible to find them without calling upon the Reserve. And he ventured to say that that could not be done if they were to carry on the ordinary duties of the country. If they were required, as they had been before, to send out 18,000 men to Egypt, they would have to call out 10,000 or 11,000 Reserve men, 4,000 or 5,000 to make up, with efficient old soldiers, the 18,000 to be sent abroad, and the remainder to do ordinary duties at home. That was the state in which the country was; and, in his opinion, they were living in a fool's paradise unless they took steps to increase the Army very materially. If the noble Marquess could not show that the Army was sufficient for the purpose's for which they were paying all this money, he was bound to propound a scheme to render it more fit. In the 4th page of the Report of the Inspector General of Recruiting they were told that it was calculated by the actuaries that the number of recruits required to meet the wants of the year 1883, including the normal deficit, was 39,242; and the actual deficit, taking all things into consideration, was 30,607. Turning to Appendix A, a statement would be found that there were 23,096 men recruited in the territorial districts in

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  1883; and if the total number actually required was more than 39,000, he wanted to know how it could be made out that the deficit was only 7,600 on the 1st of January last? His own be he f was that it was something like 16,000; and when they came to consider the details which had been given by the hon. Member for Leitrim (Mr. Tottenham) there could be no mistake as to the condition of the Service. Indeed, he thought the requirements would be found to be somewhat larger than was given in the Inspector General's Report. If he was right in these two points, what was the value of such a Return? All these Returns could be easily cooked, and in many instances they were not substantially accurate. He should, therefore, be glad if the noble Marquess, when he came to make his statement, would go carefully into these particulars. He had been exceedingly sorry to hear the noble Marquess again say that, in the interests of the country and of the Army, he could not give details in regard to particular regiments. In olden days all the details asked for wore supplied. The only reason could be that the inefficiency of some of the regiments was so great that the noble Marquess dared not give the particulars to the public. Indeed, if a Return were given it would appal the outside public, who would then know to what Her Majesty's Government were trusting for the defence of this great Empire. He hoped the Committee would be afforded a full opportunity for discussing all the noble Marquess might say in his statement; but he (Sir Walter B. Barttelot) should certainly like to have in that statement the real facts of the condition of the Army of this country at the present moment.
  SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFFsaid, he did not propose to detain the House at any length; but he merely wished to put a question to the noble Marquess at the head of the War Department, or to any other Minister who chose to answer it. He wished to ask the noble Marquess if he was prepared at once to repudiate the Proclamation said to have been issued at Suakin for the capture of Osman Digua? ["Oh!"] Humanitarian Members opposite might, perhaps, dislike any reference to the fact that a reward had been offered, practically, for the assassination of Osman
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  Digna; but he wanted to have a distinct assurance from Her Majesty's Government on the subject. The Proclamation, which was in the following terms, was said to have been issued by Admiral Howett:—
  "I, the English Governor and General, Civil and Military, of Suakin, make known that whosoever will bring in the rebel Osman, the murderer, who has by his lies caused the blood of the tribes to be spilt at Kl Tub and Tamanieb, alive or dead, shall receive 5,000 dollars reward."
  He wanted to ask, in the first place, what right this Proclamation had to call Osman Digna a "rebel?" To whom was he a rebel? Was he a rebel to the Mahdi. or to the Khedive, or to ourselves? And by what right, unless he was a rebel, could British officers offer a reward for his head, and in such a way that if he could not be captured alive he was to be assassinated? He further wished to know whether the reward of $5.000 offered, or said to have been offered, was included in the; Estimates about to be submitted by the noble Marquess?
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: I believed have no right to trouble the House again; but perhaps I may be allowed to answer the question which has been asked by the hon. Gentleman. I have very little to add to what I stated at the time of Questions. The hon. Member now asks mo whether the Government are prepared to repudiate the Proclamation which is said to have been issued. Now, before the Government repudiate any act performed by an officer who has, in very trying and difficult circumstances, ably discharged the duties intrusted to him, it is incumbent on the Government to satisfy themselves by the fullest information as to the nature and character of the act they are called on to repudiate. I have already stated, in reply to a Question, that the moment I the Government saw the statement in the newspapers they sent off a telegram to Sir William Hewett, asking for information on the subject. Lord Northbrook: has received a reply to that telegram, and Lord Northbrook has telegraphed. for further information. I do not know where the hon. Member opposite obtained the copy of the Proclamation which he has just read to the House; but, judging from the telegram we have received, I should say it is not the Pro-

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  clamation which was issued. Until we have the Proclamation before us I think it would be impossible for the Government to take any steps to repudiate it. I cannot conceive that any funds for the purpose referred to by the hon. Member are included in the Estimates about to be presented to the House.
  Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.

  SUPPLY—ARMY ESTIMATES, 1884–5.

    DEPARTMENTAL STATEMENT.
    SUPPLY—considered in. Committee.
    (In the Committee.)
    THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: I shall endeavour to occupy as little as possible of the time of the Committee, as I can hardly hope to secure its attention after the protracted discussions we have already had. I shall, therefore, compress, as much as possible, the remarks which it is my duty to make to the Committee. I shall first refer to the financial aspect of these Estimates. The Estimates of the present year, including the Supplementary Estimates lately voted, show a reduction of £14,700; but, as compared with the original Estimates presented to the Committee last year, they show an increase of £,326,200. The Estimates of the present year include some war charges, such as the arrears for the Egyptian Expedition of 1882, and some charges for the expedition to Suakin. Omitting these, and including only the ordinary items for which the Votes were insufficient, being principally the items of deferred pay and pensions, it would appear that, instead of a saving of £44,700, the Estimates show an increase of £179,300. Omitting, further, a sum of £49,300 in respect of the Indian non - effective charges, the Estimates show an excess of £49,300 over last year. I will state the principal heads of increase in detail. Partial provision is made for the pay of additional men. That accounts for an additional sum of £45,000; good-conduct pay £5,000; deferred pay—after deducting the portion of the increased charge payable by India—.£20,000; increase of Reserve Forces £65,000; for the Militia and Volunteers, £9,700; for pensions, £15,700; and decrease of Ceylon contribution, £20,000. Altogether, the prin-
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    cipal heads of increase amount to £180,400. The chief decreases are the reductions of charge for the carriage of troops by railway, £35,000; miscellaneous charges, £32,600; and a reduced charge for stores, supplies, and clothing, amounting to £63,500; making a total of £131,100. I shall speak somewhat later of the proposed increase of men With regard to the other items, the charge for good-conduct pay has been caused partly by the extended service of the men adopted last year; and partly by an increased charge for outfit allowances, which has resulted from the larger number of commissions, principally Quartermasters' commissions, now given to noncommissioned officers on promotion from the ranks. In the amount of deferred pay there is a large increase. It has, during the last two years, exceeded the amount estimated in 1 876, when deferred pay was first granted; but the ultimate amount will probably not exceed the maximum of the original Estimate then made, except as to non-commissioned officers during their service after re-engagement, who were not at first included. As, however, a large number of men take their discharge on the completion of their 12th year of service, the maximum charge will be reached more rapidly than had been, expected. The pension charge, disregarding the reduced sum taken for Indian repayments, shows an addition required of £15,700 above the original and supplementary Estimate for 1883–4. The supplementary sum of £50,000 recently voted for out-pensions raises the charge for them in 1883–4 to the same amount as is included in the Estimates for the present year, and therefore the full amount for the two years will be practically the same; but there is, nevertheless, an excess of £50,000 over what was thought sufficient a year ago. This has been, as the Committee are aware, a very heavy and an increasing charge; but there is some reason to hope that the maximum of that charge is now very nearly, if not altogether, reached. There is a charge of £20,000, in addition, which will fall upon the Army Estimates in respect of a diminished contribution from the Island of Ceylon. That Colony is almost the only Colony which for some years has paid the full cost of its military expenditure. Of late years the Revenue of the Colony has very materially fallen off and, owing to a

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    very strong appeal having been made to the Treasury and the War Office, a temporary reduction of £20,000 in the contribution has been assented to, pending the revision of the permanent charge to be made on the Island. It is hoped that, whatever charge may be fixed upon in the future, the Island will be able to pay the full amount. The explanation of the charge for Indian Non-Effective Services is, I am afraid, of a somewhat difficult and technical character. For many years past the payment by the Indian Government has represented the capital value of the Indian proportion of the pensions, and this sum has been appropriated as Revenue. This system might have been maintained, and the Whole sum receivable from India have been appropriated in aid of the Votes, as in previous years; but the Government, having had their attention called to the subject, have thought it right to put an end to the system of appropriating capital in aid of Revenue. The measures intended to be taken will be more fully explained to Parliament when the scheme, creating a fund by means of contributions of the past, and the re-vote of money hitherto applied in aid of Revenue in excess of annual charge, comes under our notice. The immediate effect on the Army Estimates will be to increase the stun voted by the sum of £130,000. Coming now to the general statement of the state of the Army, I had to explain last year that there was a very considerable deficiency in numbers, both at home and in India, and I had also to admit that a great difficulty had been found in making up the drafts for establishments abroad, and especially in India. That deficiency was due to two causes. In the first place, an abnormal number of discharges took place in 1883, from the fact that a very large number of long-service men enlisted in 1870, and a very large number of short-service men enlisted in 1876; and both these classes were together taking their discharges last year. The second cause of the deficiency was the check placed on recruiting in. July, 1881, by the experiment which was tried of raising the age for enlistment from 18 to 19. Our return to the age of 18 has been much commented upon in the discussion to-night; but I may remind the Committee that the increase of age
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    was a measure never before attempted with regard to recruiting by any system. At the same time, a more strict medical examination of recruits had been enforced, and various minor alterations in the recruiting system had been adopted, which probably have had for the time the effect of checking recruiting. Early in 1882 there was, unfortunately, a great drain of men, which was not fully anticipated or provided for. The opportunity was thought a favourable one for endeavouring to obtain the necessary number of recruits at a somewhat more advanced age, and for otherwise raising the standard. The result of these combined circumstances was that there was a deficiency in recruiting; and a very large deficiency under the numbers authorized upon the establishment. Measures were taken last year with the object, in the first place, of providing more recruits; and, in the second place, of reducing the outflow from the ranks, especially in India. The standard was not absolutely reduced; but special permission was given to enlist men between the ages of 18 and 19. between 5 feet 3 inches and 5 feet 4 inches in height, and between 33inches and 34 inches in chest measurement, if, in the opinion of the medical officer and the military recruiting officer, such men were likely to make eligible soldiers. At the same time, the terms of service were made more elastic; although the actual terms of enlistment were not altered, except in the Guards. In the Guards the original engagement now is for three years with the Colours, with the power of extending their service to seven or 12 years, and at 12 years of re-engaging and serving for 21 years. As I have already explained, that was tried without any risk; since, except in case of war, the Guards have no foreign service. In the Line, the same permission has been granted to all men on the expiration of their service with the Colours to extend their service to 12 years; and, if of good character, they have again the opertion of re-engagement and serving for 21 years. A sum of 120 rupees is offered in India to men so re-engaging, provided they have a sufficient length of service to give. A good deal of observation has been made upon that; but I should like to point out to the Committee that I consider this practice of giving a

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    bounty to a man for extension of service is a very different thing-, indeed, from reverting to the old system of inducing recruits to enlist by offering a bounty. The result of offering a large bounty to the recruits to enlist at home was that you tempted men who had no real or natural inclination to enlist at all. with the effect that a large number of recruits enlisted merely for the sake of the bounty; served but for a very short time; and, having got the bounty, subsequently deserted, and so robbed the country, not only of a certain amount of pay, but also, in sonic cases, of a large bounty. Now, the measure of offering a bounty to men actually serving in India who are entitled to their discharge, and who would cost the Government of India a considerable sum of money to take home and replace, is a very different operation indeed; and one which appears to me perfectly legitimate, both in regard to the soldier and to the Government themselves. Well, Sir, at home a bounty of £2 has always been offered to men on embarkation for foreign service who were willing to re-engage for a certain period of service abroad. The bounty has been extended to men who are willing to re-engage, so as to give at least five years' service abroad. It is now given to all men of more than three, and less than seven years' service, if they extend their service to 12 years with the Colours. The result of these measures has been that the largest number of recruits ever enlisted was enlisted last year—namely, 33,096. The new system has been in operation only eight months. It it had been in operation for a whole 3'ear the number would probably have been about 37,000. In 1882 the number was 23,802; and, as compared with the year 1882, the difference of 9,300 probably represents the number of men between the ages of 18 and 19, and between the heights of 5 feet 3 inches and 5 feet 4 inches, who, as I have stated, were likely, in the opinion of the commanding officers and the medical officers, to make efficient and useful soldiers. I do not think I need trouble the Committee with the number of recruits for each arm of the Service; but I can give it if required. In the Cavalry no difficulty whatever has been experienced in keeping the Force up to the strength required in order to supply the larger number of vacancies caused by
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    short service in the Army. The system which was introduced last 3'ear in the Guards has succeeded very well. The Guards were last year nearly 1,000 below the Establishment; now they are only 100 below the Establishment. The Infantry of the Line reached the lowest point in July, 1883, when they were 8,717 below the Establishment. On the 1st of January of this Year they were 5,812 below the Establishment, and now they are about 5,347 below it.
    LORD EUSTACE CECIL: Will the noble Marquess give the figures in reference to the Artillery?
    THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: I am coming to the Artillery. There is a small increase in the number of recruits. In 1882, 3,982 were enlisted, and in 1883, 4,022. The deficiency in July, 1883, was 1,221; now it is about 1,012. That deficiency, which is certainly to be regretted, is entirely among the gunners. The measures which I have described had the effect of inducing 6,335 men to state in India and to take the bounty offered to them. Of these, only 1,000 would have come home this year; and, therefore, it is only to the extent of 1,000 that we have gained by this measure. I believe that the number of men who would have taken their discharges, but who have extended their service in the ensuing year, will be nearer 2,000. The total waste of the Army in the last year is given in the Appendix to the Return of the Inspector General of Recruiting.
    SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOT: What is the total deficiency in India?
    THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: There is a total deficiency, in all arms ml all ranks, of 2,195. I was proceeding to state what was the waste of the Army in 1883. The gross numbers were 47,433; but from these numbers ought to be deducted 8,500 men, who at the beginning of the year had been demobilized, and about 4,000 who would have gone into the Reserve about the end of 1882. but were retained under the Colours when the Reserve was called out. Exclusive of these, there went into the Reserve 10,940 in the last year. That was, of course, not waste in the true sense of the word. 6,496 men were discharged from long service, after 18 or 21 years' service. The discharges on this account will, in future years, somewhat decrease. 1,707 men died, being

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    the smallest number during the last 20 years. 3,374 invalids were discharged, also the smallest number during the last 20 years. 3,618 took their discharge by purchase; and 818 were freed from service by indulgence. There is some increase under that head. Men are now able, in a certain time, to obtain their discharge on payment of £10; and I think it is not unsatisfactory that a class of men exists who are able to pay that sum for their discharge, instead of deserting, as formerly was the case, if they did not find service in the Army to their taste. 1,059 men have been discharged for misconduct; and this is the lowest figure since 1871. Before that date the statistics were not so compiled that numbers can be compared. I do not think I need mention the miscellaneous sources of waste; but the net desertions have amounted to 2,550. That is the smallest number since 1870, with the exception of the years 1875 and 1879. The period for which a soldier is struck off the roll as a deserter has been reduced from two months to 21 days. There is, I am happy to say, a steady decrease in the number of desertions, and that decrease in the past year is noticeable when the very large number of recruits enlisted is taken into account, because it has always been found that the largest number of desertions takes place in the first year of the soldier's service. In 1883 the net loss by desertions was only 6·8 per cent of the total number of recruits; in 1882 the loss was 11 per cent, and the average for the last 20 years has been 13 per cent. There is, therefore, I think, a considerable and very satisfactory reduction in the rate of desertions from the Army. Now, Sir, I think I have already pointed out that, although the new Regulations were only in force for eight months of last year, they have more than kept down the normal depletion going on during the same period. The Estimate for 1884–5 is that 30,700 recruits will be required to replace 12,000 men entering into the Reserve, and 18.000 who will leave the Army from other causes. That will require recruiting "at the rate of 600 per week. Up till now we have been recruiting at the rate of 800 per week. We cannot expect that that rate will be maintained throughout the whole year; but we may fairly expect that the requirements of the year will
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    be fully met, and that, in addition, a balance will be maintained which will nearly, if not altogether, replace the deficiency that has taken place. It is further to be noted that We are now discharging into the Reserve men who had given six years' service with the Colours. The men who enlisted in 1881 and subsequent years will serve for seven years with the Colours; and, consequently, the number which we shall lose annually will be smaller than at present. Our recruiting requirements, of course, will diminish in proportion to the number of men who extend for longer service in the Army; but, notwithstanding this, I admit that the number of recruits that will be required in the present and future years is still very large. It is necessary to relax no effort to establish the popularity of the Service throughout the country, and to remove—this is a most important point—any of the causes which can be removed, and which tend to make the service of the Army unpopular. The attention of the Military Authorities is still devoted to this subject; and although much has been done, something still remains to be done to make the condition of the soldier's service—especially on his first enlistment—more popular and loss irksome than it has hitherto been found. As to the sources from which the recruits during the year have been drawn, the Militia has supplied 12,450 men. That fact I have seen adverted to as simply a destruction of the Militia for the benefit of the Army. I do not think it can be regarded at all in that light. The Militia has always been looked upon as a legitimate source for recruiting the Army; and it is satisfactory to see so large a number of men passing through the Militia to the Army, because it tends to establish and give effect to a system which we are now attempting to organize in our Army—that is to say, the territorial system—and to establish more closely the union and connection between the Militia and the Line battalions, which will, practically, form one territorial regiment. Fifty-one per cent of those recruits who came from the Militia enlisted for the Line battalions of their own regiments; and there were also 1,392 recruits who enlisted in the past year from a source which, I think, is extremely satisfactory—from the Volunteers. I think it says much for the increasing popularity of the

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    Service that men should he found in increasing numbers coming forward to enlist from a force like that—namely, the Volunteers. The remainder of the recruits enlisted from the civil population. Fifteen districts supplied over 80 per cent, 43 (including those 15) districts over 50 per cent, and 19 districts less than 50 per cent of the numbers required for their respective territorial regiments. In 50 out of the 62 regimental districts the commanding officers report that the regiments connected with the districts are becoming more and more locally identified with those districts. Now, Sir, I think I have shown that the result of the measures taken to increase the quantity of recruits may fairly be considered satisfactory. Quality, of course, is a still more important consideration than quantity. With reference to the question as to how the medical officers and the recruiting officers are discharging with judgment the discretion they possess of enlisting the men we need, and who come up to the authorized standards, I may say that the rejection of men subjecting themselves to examination was last year 399 per 1,000 men against 424 per 1,000 in 1882. That is not a large decrease, and does not tend to show that the commanding officers have been lax in the discharge of their duty. There are about 10,000 specially enlisted men, of whom about 7,000 are between 18 and 19 years of age. Formerly, 33 inches was the standard of chest measurement required for a recruit. If he came up to that standard, and was not in other respects physically unfit—if he had no physical defect—the recruiting officer would have been bound to take him. Now the standard remains as before; but the medical officer has a discretion to take a man below the standard if he thinks he is likely to make a good soldier. The General Officers commanding have, in some instances, no doubt, complained of the youth of the recruits they have inspected, but their Reports have not been unfavourable upon the whole; and the whole of the recruits, with the exception of 200 or 300 whose cases are being thoroughly investigated, have been inspected. The Reports of the commanding officers at the depôts show that in 29 districts they considered the recruits good; in 29 fair; in four they wore con-
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    sidered doubtful; and in 15 unfavourable. There can be no doubt, as I have previously said, that we are at present enlisting a younger class of men, and in some respects a class of men of somewhat inferior physique to those of some years ago. But it does not at all follow that men of between 18 and 19 are less fit or less qualified to become good soldiers than older men. It is necessary that we should obtain recruits at the ages at which they will come; and, how-over much we may desire to obtain older men, it is not under a voluntary system of enlistment practically possible to obtain them after these ages. I very much doubt whether we could obtain many more, unless we were prepared to pay a great deal more. The age of 18 or 19 is precisely the age at which the recruit is to be obtained, for he has not yet made up his mind as to his future occupation or profession in life; and if you wait yon will very likely find he has adopted some other occupation, and if you want him then you will not be able to get him. Sir, I said I would give the Committee some figures as to the service of the Army at home and abroad. I thoroughly admit, and I have assorted, that no one could have any reasonable doubt that in our short-service system a large proportion of the Army serving at home is, and must be, composed of young troops. The figures which I shall give to the Committee refer only to the Infantry of the Line. There were, on the 1st of January, 43,745 men of the Line serving at home. Of these, 18,404 were of under one year's service; but those figures do not represent all, or even mainly, men who are not fit for active service. The Return does not show the number of trained recruits; but the number of wilder one year's service is, as I have stated, 18,404. Then there were at home of short-service men 15,373 of over one year's service; and the remainder of the Infantry serving at homo was composed of 4,091 long-service men, and 5,877 re-engaged men of short service. But with regard to that portion of the Army which serves abroad, we shall find that it shows a very different state of things; and what I think we have to complain of is, that the critics of the Army in this House, and in the country generally, seem to ignore altogether the condition of the Army abroad, and to turn all their attention to the Army at

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    home, which I say must always, to a great extent, be composed of recruits. With regard, then, to our Army abroad, there were, on the 1st of January, 53,696 Infantry of the Line in India and abroad, of whom 1,832 were under one year's service, and 36,308 over one year's service—short-service men—the remainder being composed of 10,372 long-service men, and 5,184 re-engaged men. I have given the figures showing the service of the men who were engaged in the recent actions in the Soudan. Everybody admits that those soldiers were as good and as efficient specimens of British Infantry as the Army has produced up to the present time. But they were the very recruits—precisely the same men—who have been complained of and cavilled at and abused in this House, and it is in exactly the same way that the recruits enlisted under the recent system are depreciated. I say that complaints are constantly made of the inefficiency, and what is described as the miserable character, of the recruits who are being enlisted, but who invariably, when active service is required of them, do perfectly well. I have here an Actuarial Report made the other day upon the proportion of men fully and partly trained under a long-service and short-service system respectively. I will not trouble the Committee with all the details; but the result arrived at is, that with equal Establishments, in the 47 weakest battalions at homo the proportion during peace of untrained, or only partly trained, men would be 32 per cent in the long-service Army, and 65½ per cent under the short-service system. In time of war, however, the Reserve would, under the short-service system, be called out—say, 46,000 thoroughly trained soldiers; and then the proportion, if these men were divided equally amongst the battalions at home, would fall in the weak battalions from 65½ to 31 per cent of untrained, or only partly trained, soldiers; while under the long-service system it would be either impossible to fill up the Establishment at all, or, if it were filled up, the percentage of untrained or partly-trained men would at once be raised to 68. Therefore, this system of short service, although it gives us an Army at home which is, during ordinary times, largely composed of recruits, yet gives
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    us an Army abroad whose weakest battalions are composed of men who are not partly trained, but who are all in. The very prime of life and fully-trained; soldiers. As to the Establishment of; the present and next year, the effective strength, on the 1st of July, 1883—at which date about the lowest point of; last year was reached—was 154,530 rank and file; and on the 1st of January in the present year it was 108,029, or 7,357 below the increased Establishment of last year. But, as I endeavoured; to explain last year, our Establishments are maximum Establishments, and we cannot go beyond them; and, consequently, owing to the drain which takes place in the winter months, when the drafts go out to India, the Army must be at the latter part of that time, and for some time afterwards, considerably below its Establishment; because, although recruiting is tolerably constant throughout the year, the deficiency can only be made good by a very gradual process. We added, last year, 2,600 men to the Establishment, for the purpose of raising the strength of the lowest battalions from 450 to 520; but, as I explained at the time, we did not ask the House to vote any additional money for that increase of Establishment, because, on the facts which I put forward, we considered it impossible that the Army could, on an average, throughout the year, be up to the Establishment nominally voted by Parliament. Well, Sir, in the present year I shall have to ask the Committee to sanction an Establishment somewhat increased on that of last year, owing to the disturbance of normal arrangements consequent upon the occupation of Egypt. The normal distribution is 50 battalions in India, 19 in the Colonies, and 72 at home. I am not referring to those battalions which have; been specially sent to undertake operations in the Soudan, and which, perhaps, may return before long; but before those additional battalions were sent, there were six battalions in Egypt, which, under normal circumstances, ought to be at home, and there is also half a battalion which, under the same circumstances, would be at Malta. We have, therefore, to provide, during the continuance of this occupation, for 75 battalions abroad and 66 at home. One of these battalions abroad is a single bat-

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    talion regiment. Under ordinary arrangements, every battalion abroad ought to be fed by its depôt and by the corresponding battalion at home; but there are now four regiments which have both their battalions abroad, and which have to be fed entirely from the homo depôt. The demand on the depôt is thus doubled, while the supply is reduced, through the absence of the home battalion. We propose to meet this difficulty, in the first place, by withdrawing one battalion from the garrison at Halifax. This is a plan which has boon long under consideration. The garrison is, I believe, normally fixed at two battalions, one of which will be withdrawn. The next step we propose to take is to increase the depôts of those regiments which have both battalions abroad. Two of these will be increased to 300, and one to 600; While the depôt of the single battalion regiment will be raised from 50 to 200 rank and file. The foreign battalion of the remaining regiment will be sent home shortly, and it is therefore unnecessary to make for it any special provision. We also propose to make an addition to the regimental Establishment at home. Last year the occupation of Egypt was considered to be a temporary and provisional one, and the battalions there were considered as still forming part of the First Army Corps, and no special measures were taken to replace them. Now, however, that the necessity for the occupation of Egypt appears likely to be somewhat prolonged, it is proposed to place the battalions in Egypt on the ordinary Colonial Establishment of 800 strong, and to raise a corresponding number of battalions at home to take their place in the First Army Corps. The total increase that will be necessary for these purposes is 2,400 men. There will inevitably be a deficiency, and probably a considerable deficiency, upon this increased Establishment during some period of the year; but if the Committee grant the increased Establishment which we ask, it will enable us to recruit up to a higher maximum, in order to make more satisfactory and certain provision for the drafts that will be required by battalions abroad. The Reserve—including the Reserve moil who were serving with the Colours—numbered on the 1st of January, 1883,
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    29,022, as against 34,589 on the 1st of January in the present year; and it will probably exceed 40,000 in the course of the your, besides the supplementary Reserve of 2,500 men approved by Parliament last year. The Militia Reserve was 31,000 at the last training, which is its full strength There will, accordingly, in the course of the present year, be an available Reserve of 66,000 men. I have already referred to the deficiency in the Artillery. Some changes in organization have been made for the purpose of increasing the Establishment. Recruits, it is said, are deterred from enlisting into the Artillery by the frequent changes from battery to battery, which make it almost impossible for a man to have any settled home in that branch of the Service. In the first place, he enlists in the local Artillery depôt; from that he joins a home service battery, and he is sent thence in a draft to supply the requirements of a foreign service battery. It is now proposed to form four Field Artillery depôts—one in Ireland and three in England—to which recruits will be sent from the local Artillery depôt, and from which foreign drafts will be supplied. The additional depôts will require an establishment of 20 officers and 1,400 men; but no additional expenditure will be proposed. Since the reduction of Horse Artillery in India, the proportion of that arm maintained in this country has been in excess of the authorized proportion to other arms. It has been for some time under consideration to make some reduction in that arm; and it has now been decided to reduce two batteries. It is also intended to reduce three four-gun field batteries, which have been used only as training depôts, a service which can be more efficiently accomplished by the "establishment of depôts, which will be professedly training depôts, and not service batteries. The service batteries will also, by this measure, be made much more efficient, because, except in rare and exceptional circumstances, they will not have to furnish drafts for the batteries abroad. In the Infantry, as I mentioned last year, a system of musketry instruction by officers of the regiment has been adopted. The Musketry Instructors have been abolished; and the companies are now

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    not only instructed in drill, but also in musketry, by their own officers. That change, I believe, has been well received both by regimental officers and commanding officers, and the result has boon fully approved by the General Officers commanding districts. It is necessary to say a word or two as to the unusual demand for officers in the year 1883. The demand for the Indian Staff Corps, usually satisfied with less than 100 officers, was, in 1883, 166; and there has also boon a large number of officers required for service in the Egyptian Army. The abnormal vacancies number about 80, while, at the same time, the supply of officers has lessened, the numbers in the Royal Military College and in the Militia having been reduced in previous years, in order to allow for the absorption of officers rendered supernumerary by the measures of July, 1881. The admissions from Sandhurst and from the Militia were reduced by 60 in each case. The College at Sandhurst is, I believe now full; but the course of preparation there takes one year, and only a reduced number of cadets are ready for commissions. In order to moot this exceptional demand for officers, we have had recourse to the only means open to us, and have increased the number of commissions to be granted to officers of the Militia from 80 to 131. There does not appear to be any objection to this course; because the Reports of the Examinations for the Militia are very favourable. Twenty commissions have also been granted to cadets of one term only at Sandhurst, on the report of their fitness by the authorities of that Institution. There are still several vacancies in the Cavalry and Infantry; but I believe that the full number of about 300 will be obtained from Sandhurst in the course of the present year. Certain changes have been made with regard to the entrance examinations at Sandhurst, and they have been made with two objects—first, to secure a sufficient number of candidates for the Cavalry; and, secondly, to check cramming—I will not say altogether, but to check what appear to us to be its most objectionable features. Candidates, on entering, will put down their names on separate lists for Infantry, or Cavalry, or both; so that a man may secure a commission, by a somewhat
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    smaller number of marks than would otherwise have been the case with regard to the Infantry examination. It is found, or be believed, that there are two subjects most capable of being crammed for—English literature and natural science. An alteration has now been made, and in future more weight will be given to modern languages and mathematics, which are subjects which must be thoroughly taught. I believe my hon. Friend the Member for the University of London (Sir John Lubbock) has some suggestion to make, when the proper time arrives, in regard to the change in reference to awarding marks for natural science. The examinations for promotion I have already referred to, and it is not necessary that I should refer to the question again. As to the Militia, in 1883 the number of recruits for Militia was 35,524, being 9,000 in excess of the number recruited in 1882. The enlistment of 5,808 of the men recruited was duo to the fact that recruiting has been re-opened in Ireland. The re-engagements in the Militia amount to 9,171. That is satisfactory, as showing the popularity of the Force. The drain on them is very great, 12,450 Militiamen have joined the Regular Army from that Force in the year. The Militia Reserve amounted to 31,246 at the last training. It is now at about its authorized strength. The question of Militia enlistments is complicated, but a uniform system has now been adopted; and though it is objected to by some commanding officers, the former system did not work advantageously, and the present system is, on the whole, I believed, satisfactory. As I have said, the subject is one of a complicated character, and I think I had better postpone any statement in regard to it until we come to the Militia Vote. The Reports which we have received from the Yeomanry are extremely favourable; though it is a little below its establishment—a fact which may be due to the recent agricultural depression. The efficiency of the Force is highly satisfactory, and very much greater than many people may be inclined to believe. The inspecting officer of the Northern District, who has just loft his regiment in India, where he had been accustomed to smart Cavalry regiments, has recorded his satisfaction and astonishment at finding the efficiency of the Yeomanry so far

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    exceeding his anticipations. He says that in a very short time it would be made a most valuable and trustworthy body. I had hoped it might have been possible for me to announce some measures for improving the efficiency of the Yeomanry; but I will not enter into any details until we come to the Yeomanry Vote. The Volunteers have made satisfactory progress, both as regards their number and efficiency. The total enrolled numbers are 209,305, being an increase of 2,029 over the previous year. The efficients are 202,428, showing an increase of 3,054. The officers and noncommissioned officers who are classed as efficient are 17,928, being an increase of 307. 485 have passed a tactical examination. There has recently been another tactical examination which a large number of officers have passed. A good deal of interest has been excited in the Volunteer Force by the delay in the issue of the Martini-Henry rifle. The cause of the delay has been the uncertainty about the weapon with which the Infantry of the Line and Militia is to be armed in future. The Committee will be aware that the Martini-Henry has for some time been under the consideration of a special Committee; and it is hoped that its Report will shortly be received. If, as I anticipate, the Committee to which I have referred is able to make a Report within a comparatively short time, it will be, I believe, in favour of a modification of the present arm. Until that Report is made I do not think it will be in our power, in the present year, to make any considerable issue of Martini-Henry rifles and ammunition to the Volunteer Corps. The Militia is already armed with the Martini-Henry rifle; and if we were to manufacture the present Martini-Henry for issue to the Volunteers, we might probably find that a subsequent change of arms would materially increase our stock of arms beyond what is absolutely necessary. It is hoped that in a very short time a decision will have been arrived at. In saying this, I am bound to say also that, in my view, the process must be gradual, and the Vote for small arms will remain nearly the same as last year. I hope that by the time we arrive at the Volunteer Vote it may be in my power to make a statement more in detail. The next point to which I wish to refer is the Army
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    Hospital Corps. Last year a Committee, presided over by Lord Morley, reported that the members of the Corps to which I refer were very inefficiently trained as cooks and nurses; and in consequence schools of cookery have been established at Aldershot, Netley, and the Herbert Hospital, in order that the members of the Corps may have training in largo hospitals before they are detailed for duty in the small station hospitals. I hope that before long we shall have men in the Army Hospital Corps who will themselves be competent to act as instructors, and be able to give the necessary training, not only in the schools, but in the Army hospitals generally. A further cause of the inadequacy of the present body is that the Establishment is only just sufficient for the wants of the existing hospitals. The consequence has been that recruits, after a short course of training at Aldershot, have had to be sent to act as attendants on the sick without experience in ward duties. The Service requires much more; and it is quite insufficient to send nurses to the small station hospitals without giving them an opportunity of going through the ward training of a large hospital. It is proposed, in the present Estimates, to add 200 men to the Army Hospital Corps. We hope that addition will enable us to give to the men of that Corps a certain period of training in one of the large hospitals before they undertake their duties in smaller station hospitals, where they cannot obtain so much experience. With regard to the Army Medical Department, we propose to make such an alteration in the Regulations as will enable us to call upon officers, as in other branches of the Service, to prove by examination their fitness for promotion to the rank of surgeon-major. It is thought that as now regimental officers are obliged to show their fitness for promotion by undergoing an examination, it is only right and just that the fitness of the medical officers should also be tested by examination in professional subjects with which they ought to be well acquainted, before being promoted to the higher ranks of the Service. It is also intended to take such steps as shall put an end to the present relations, which are somewhat anomalous, between the Army Medical Department and the Army Hospital

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    Corps. The subject is referred to in the Report of the Committee, and I will not go further into detail upon it. I do not I know if it is possible to make any considerable alteration in the organization; but it is desired that the Army Medical Department and the Army Hospital Corps should form one service only, and that the officers of the Army Medical Department should stand to the men of the Army Hospital Corps in exactly the same relation as the Commissariat and Transport Staff stand in relation to the men of the Commissariat and Transport Corps. Some slight alterations in existing arrangements may be necessary in order to bring about the reform to which I am referring; but I hope no real difficulty will be found to exist in the way of bringing the two branches of the Service into unity, which does not exist at present in a perfectly satisfactory form. With regard to the supply of heavy guns for the Navy, fair progress has been made in the present year. During the present and the past two years we have been undergoing a double transition; first, from the muzzle-loader to the breech-loader; and, in the next place, in the material, from wrought iron to steel. Twenty years ago another transition took place, which was of an exactly opposite character. Twenty years ago we reverted from the breech -loader, the more complicated gun, to the muzzle-loader, or more simple gun, retaining the same material of manufacture. At that time the largest guns in the Service were of 7 tons weight, firing 30 lbs. of powder. In the change from the muzzle-loader to the breech-loader the guns are of 40 tons weight, firing 400 lbs. of powder. The Committee may, therefore, imagine what has been the difficulty; and the necessity there has been for hesitation and caution in undergoing such a transition under such circumstances. The main difficulty has been to obtain sufficiently large steel-forgings for these immense weapons. There are in France and Germany several firms which have been able to supply steel-forgings of the size, and also of the quality, required for these guns; but up to the present time the demand has been a new one to the English trade and there has been great difficulty in obtaining from the English trade steel forgings of the size and quality required. We hare supplied, or in a few days shall
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    have supplied, to the Navy 10 guns of 43 tons and 12-inch bore; 18 of 18 tons and 9-inch bore; 8 of 18 tons and 8-inch bore; 171 of 4 tons and 6-inch bore; besides 190 smaller guns of 2 tons and under, making a total of nearly 400 new breech-loading guns. Those first in hand were of mixed steel and wrought iron, while the later guns are entirely of steel, There has been some advantage in the delay in the adoption of the new pattern of breech-loading ordnance. We have had the advantage of the experience gained by the French and other Powers; and it is believed that we have now obtained a system of breech-loading guns of a simple and efficient character. In addition to the guns I have enumerated, there are in hand, under construction for the Navy, 3 guns of 110 tons, 4 of 63 tons, and 3 of 43 tons, besides a very largo number of smaller guns in various stages of progress. At the same time, there are under construction for the Land Service 10 guns of 43 tons, 4 of 26 tons, and other guns of smaller size. [Mr. W.H. SMITH: Are the 110-ton guns steel guns?] All such gnus now being constructed are of steel, and they are being constructed at Elswick. The power of the individual guns in the British Service is believed to be rather more than equal weight for weight to those in the Service of any other country, either France or Italy. This result has been obtained by the special dimensions of the chamber and the bore, which allow the largest charge of powder to be consumed, and which also enable the fullest effect to be given to the recent improvements in the manufacture of gunpowder for the largest guns. The 110-ton guns will be the most powerful guns in the world; but although this progress is being made we are confronted with a new difficulty. The improvements in the armour-plating which is opposed to these guns have been commensurate with, if not greater than, the improvements in the power of the guns. Armour plates are now constructed either faced with steel or altogether composed of steel, and plates are being now manufactured which cannot be pierced by any guns in existence in the world. It is doubtful, at the present moment, in what direction the attack will have to be developed in order to meet the increased power of defence. It. is possible that even still heavier guns

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    will be required, although it is doubtful whether we have not now nearly reached the limit in the size of the guns. On the other hand, the necessary power may have to be sought for in increased velocity given to the projectile of the same size. I have now only to say a few words about, the field guns. The breech-loading 12-pounder gun has been undergoing a long series of experiments. That is believed to be the most powerful weapon of its class in the world. The Ordnance Committee have been conducting trials of these guns, and they are believed to be thoroughly satisfied as to the gun itself; but further experiments are to be made with respect to carriage. Until the guns have had a further practical trial we do not propose to enter on any large manufacture. We propose to arm three batteries with these guns in the course of the present year; and if they answer our expectations we propose to re-arm the Field Artillery with them. The 13-pounder muzzle-loading guns, which the Field Artillery now have, are considered to be superior to the French, German, or Italian guns. As the House decided some time ago to appoint a Committee to inquire into the Commissariat and Transport organization, it will be hardly necessary that I should say anything upon that subject now. I should like, however, to mention that before the appointment of that Committee by the House, a Military Departmental Committee had been appointed by the War Office to investigate some questions of the same kind. I think there is no reason why these two Committees should not pursue their inquiries side by side; but until we come to a later period of the discussion on these Votes it will be as well to defer further observations on the question. I should not like, however, to pass by the subject of stores and supply without referring, in one or two words, to the great credit that is duo to the General Officers and Staff in Egypt, and to the Departmental Officers, for the manner in which, in the recent operations in Egypt, their arrangements were carried out. The telegram instructing the General Officers to organize the transport was only received in Cairo on the 12th of February. On the 18th of February the whole Expeditionary Force—consisting of troops, horses, baggage animals, and stores—was despatched from Cairo. The Naval
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    Transport met them at Suez; and the whole force—a compact and efficient force—was disembarked at the base of operations without difficulty. Some difficulty was experienced at first in the supply of camels, and a still greater difficulty in getting drivers; but a body of 330 men was finally obtained, partly from the drivers of the Egyptian Army, and partly from Natives, of whom there were 150 in the 330. The total strength of the force was about 4,082 men, with 731 horses, 780 camels, and 619 mules; and I think the promptitude with which that force was got together was very creditable to the Departments concerned. That they were able to accomplish it was due to the fact that the reserve of supplies and equipment had been fully maintained; and immediately after the despatch of that force steps were taken to fill up the supplies in Egypt. The only other subject upon which I wish to say a few words is Vote 13, for Fortifications. The defences of the Naval ports are practically complete. There may be some changes in their armament; but they will involve no serious question of construction of works. In connection with this subject, it has been suggested from time to time that Volunteers might be made use of for the protection of our mercantile harbours. That suggestion has been coldly received, on the ground that specially trained men were required; but a remarkable and successful experiment has lately been concluded with the assistance of, and principally at the instigation of, the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr. C. M. Palmer), and it has been shown by the experiment on the Tyne last year that this work could be done by Volunteers, with the assistance of a few engineers. The officer in charge of that experiment reported that after a short training of some 50 Volunteers of Durham the work could be done by the Volunteers themselves, and they could be left to look after the protection of their own waters. It is very much to be hoped that the example which has been sot by the hon. Member for North Durham, and the success which attended his efforts, will be imitated in other directions, and that the services of the Volunteer engineers will be utilized in this very important Government service. There is nothing further that requires special

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    attention in this Vote. Two important works are about to be commenced—one a barracks in Dublin, where the sanitary condition of the barracks is bad; and, secondly, a new general hospital at Malta. We hope to be able to make a commencement in both of those works in the course of the present year. Sir, I have only now to thank the Committee for the patience with which they have listened to me at this extremely inconvenient hour of the evening (1.20 A.M.). I trust it will not be considered necessary to resume the discussion after the Statement which I have now boon permitted to make, as there will be opportunities on the other Votes for asking explanations which I fully admit the Committee are entitled to receive, and which I shall be most willing to offer. I trust it may be found possible to agree to this Vote immediately.
    (1.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a number of Land Forces, not exceeding 140,314, all ranks, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at Home and Abroad, excluding Her Majesty's Indian Possessions, during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1885."
    COLONEL STANLEY: I only rise for the purpose of saying a single word. I listened with great attention to the interesting statement of the noble Marquess; and, looking at the importance of that statement, I think he can hardly desire that, at this hour of the night, we should proceed further with the discussion. Naturally, on the first night of the Army Estimates many questions of great interest arise. Upon many of these the noble Marquess has touched; but there still remain others of importance to be dealt with; and it must be remembered, when we are told that we shall have opportunities of discussing general questions affecting the Army on other Votes, that the same tiling was said on a previous occasion, and that we were not so able to discuss general matters. No one can blame the noble Marquess; but the fact remains the same, that the second opportunity we had of discussing Army matters last year was a Saturday in August.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Colonel Stanley.)
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS): It is absolutely necessary that we should take this first Vote. ["No, no!"] Hon. Members say "No, no;" but it is absolutely necessary, in order that the Ways and Means Act should be passed in time, that one Vote in the Army Estimates should be taken now. Unless it is taken now, I do not know when it can be taken before the end of the financial year. To-morrow the House meets, by general agreement, at 2 o'clock, to discuss the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Bill; and, of course, it is impossible to hope to continue the discussion of the Vote at a reasonable hour at the Night Sitting. Wednesday does not belong to us, and on Thursday we have the Navy Estimates. I hope that the understanding which has been arrived at in past years, to the effect that the second debate shall be taken, not in August, but at some reasonable time, may be come to to-night on the same terms as in previous Sessions, which were that on the second Vote the whole question of Army organization, and kindred matters may be discussed. I repeat, that it is absolutely necessary, in order to make proper provision for Army expenditure before the end of the financial year, that one Vote should be taken in the Army Estimates and one in the Navy Estimates this week. As I say, the course I suggest was agreed to last year, the second discussion taking place, not as the right hon. and gallant Gentleman (Colonel Stanley) says, in August, but early in the Session.
    EARL PERCYsaid, he wished to call the attention of the Committee to the position in which they were placed. The noble Marquess had made an important statement, not only on matters which could be discussed on the second Vote, but on other branches of the Estimates. He had made a most important statement as to the Militia, and had asked the Committee to defer the discussion upon it until they came to the Vote itself; but he (Earl Percy) should like to ask when the Militia and Volunteer Votes were likely to be taken if the Committee agreed to the course proposed? The Chancellor of the Exchequer told them it was absolutely necessary that they should pass one Vote to-night; therefore, it came to this—that the Government, knowing how vital it was that the Estimates should be

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    taken, had deliberately wasted two nights on the. discussion of the Representation of the People Bill. ["Oh, oh!"] Well, they had employed two nights in the discussion of that Bill, which, measure might very well have been put off in the interests of the Army Estimates, to allow opportunities for the general discussion of matters other than those which could be dealt with on the second Vote. He trusted the Committee would not pass the Vote before them without a pledge from the Government that not only the second Vote, but that all the important Votes in the Army Estimates would be taken on some specified early day. There was no greater right possessed by the House of Commons, and none that it behoved them more to cherish, than that of thoroughly examining and discussing the Estimates.
    MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid, the first Vote for Men, which the noble Marquess wished them to take to-night, was for the sum of £4,500,000. The Government had had some weeks—since the beginning of the Session, in fact—to arrange this work; but now, at half-past 1, on the first occasion they had had the Army Estimates before them, they were told it was absolutely necessary the Committee should pass the first Vote. It seemed to him that the functions of the Committee were becoming little better than a farce. The Committee sat for the purpose of properly considering and examining the Estimates; but what proper criticism could there be at that hour of the morning, seeing that the noble Marquess had only just resumed his seat? The Committee had hardly had time to realize the proposals of the noble Marquess and the changes which were to be introduced into the military system. The Vote with regard to the Medical Department, and some Votes affecting other Departments, were very important; and probably the Government would be able in the future to find time for their discussion; but the whole of the Army organizations came under this first Vote, and there wore many things covered by it which could not be properly discussed on the second Vote. The next Vote was for Divine Service, and what a farce it would be to discuss the details of military organization on such a Vote as that for the Chaplaincy Department. He would suggest to the Chancellor of the
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    Exchequer the desirability of his taking to-night, not £-4,500,000 without discussion, but some reasonable sum on account. [The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER dissented.] The right hon. Gentleman shook his head. He (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) had expected that he would do so; but he had no doubt that the right hon. Gentleman would find his suggestion a not altogether unreasonable one, if hon. Members on the Opposition side of the House would show something like determination and resolution in insisting on adequate discussion before these enormous Votes were passed.
    THE MARQUESS or HARTINGTON: Perhaps the Committee will allow mo to point out that, practically, at all events of recent years, the first Vote in the Army Estimates has been granted to the Government merely as a Vote on Account, the general discussion having been postponed to another occasion. Last year, at all events, the Committee had nothing to complain of in our complying with the demands made for opportunities for full discussion of the Army Estimates. The Estimates were moved on the 12th of March; they were again discussed for a whole night on the 24th of March; and they were a third time discussed on the 4th of June. [Mr. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: No; on the 18th of August.] Yes; on the I8th of August. But the Votes never had an opportunity of being passed at an early date, although there were early discussions. I quite admit what was said by the hon. Member for Queen's County (Mr. Arthur O'Connor), that the next Vote in the Estimates does not afford the best opportunity for the discussion of all those important matters which may have to be considered the next time the Estimates are discussed; but it would be quite possible for the next Vote taken to be one upon which we could take a general discussion.
    SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOTventured to hope that the Committee would not take as the first Vote the Vote either for men or for money. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had told them that there was no necessity for obtaining the grant for men to-night, and the Mutiny Act could not be brought in before April.
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS): What I said was that the Statute at present regu-

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    lating the Army ceases to operate towards the end of April. The measure will be brought in considerably before that time.
    SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOTsaid, that, as he understood it, the Mutiny Bill could not be brought in until a late period in April, and they wore now only at the 17th of March. If they were to grant £4,500,000 to the Government, they know perfectly well that the Government had power to spread that sum over the whole of the Army Estimates, and to render it the equivalent of a Vote on Account. But the Committee had not received any intimation from the Chancellor of the Exchequer that a Vote on Account was likely to be taken. It seemed to him (Sir Walter B. Barttelot) that if they gave the Government Vote 11—the Clothing Vote—£711,082, that Vote might be discussed to-night; and they would then have, on a future occasion, a fair opportunity for discussing the whole question of the men, and all those matters which the noble Marquess had dealt with in his statement. As he (Sir Walter B. Barttelot) understood it, all that the Government actually required was that there should be a sum voted this month, so as to enable them to pay any money that might be wanted in the month commencing with the 1st proximo. The condition of the Institution at Pimlico itself required a careful consideration. He ventured, at any rate, to hope that hon. Friends whom he saw sitting there that night would not allow the Vote before them to pass; because, although they had had some discussion, they knew perfectly well what the exigencies of the Government would be, and that they would have the Representation of the People Bill and other Bills perpetually pushed forward, thus relegating all these Estimates to the end of the Session, when there would be no adequate opportunity for that thorough discussion which the Committee were entitled to insist upon.
    EARL PERCYsaid, he should like to ask the noble Marquess if he could give any pledge that a Vote which interested the House very much, and which was only taken last year, on the 18th of August—namely, the Volunteer Vote—would be taken before that date this Session? Or would the noble Marquess give an assurance that when the Volunteer ques-
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    tion and other matters were alluded to, hon. Members would not be ruled out of Order?
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid, that no one wished to embarrass the financial arrangements of the Government; but what objection could there be to continuing tins discussion on Thursday, and taking the Naval Vote on Monday? Would that be too late for the passing of the Consolidated Fund Bill?
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS): Yes; that arrangement would throw us too late. I gave the House, the other night, the different stages at which the Bill would have to be taken day by day. If the Navy Estimates were not taken this day week, it would not be possible for the Royal Assent to be obtained to the Consolidated Fund Bill next week.
    MR. W. H. SMITHwould suggest that the naval discussion should be taken on the Committee stage of the Bill, which would probably be on Tuesday. The Bill might be read a third time on Wednesday, and it would still be possible to pass the Bill and obtain the Royal Assent next week. A similar course had been adopted before.
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS): I looked very carefully into that matter, and I found that it would not be possible to carry out the suggestion, even by sitting on Saturday. It is my duty, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, to inform myself on matters of this kind; and I can assure the Committee it is absolutely necessary that one Army Vote should be taken tonight. With regard to what has been suggested as to the second Vote, I think we ought to give the same undertaking which we gave last year, which was that between Easter and Whitsuntide there would be an evening given for the discussion of the Army Estimates. Tonight, as the Committee knows, we did not reach the noble Marquess's statement until nearly midnight. It is possible to interpose questions relating to the Army before the Speaker leaves the Chair; and I must say that during the last year or two that practice has been carried to an extreme point, because it has been late before the Estimates could be proposed. For 15 or 20 years of my life in this House, it used to be the practice to have the speech introducing the Army or Navy Estimates no later than half-

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    past 5 or 6 o'clock; even that, in former days, was considered a very late hour. Now, however, we have got into the habit of taking the Minister's statement' late at night. I remember on one occasion, When the House granted me its indulgence, rising to propose the Army Estimates between 1 and 2 o'clock in the morning.
    MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, the Chancellor of the Exchequer was very fond of laying down the law on these subjects; but, if his memory served him right, it had frequently been the practice to take two stages of a Money Bill on one day in this House, and two stages in the House of Lords.
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS): Let me, at once, say that we do propose to take two stages in one day in the House of Lords; but I think financial authorities sitting by the side of the right hon. Gentleman will be able to convince him that we have never taken two stages of a Money Bill on the same day in this House.
    MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that he had been anxious to make arrangements for the convenience of the House; but would it not have been as easy for the right hon. Gentleman to have made those arrangements last week as this week? Then, the right hon. Gentleman said that in years gone by it had been the custom to allow the Speaker to leave the Chair at an early hour when the Estimates were proposed, and to allow the first Vote to be taken without difficulty; but the right hon. Gentleman must remember that in those days opportunities for discussing mutters on the Motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair were much more numerous than they were at the present moment.
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS): We have taken the Army Estimates on the very first night after the conclusion of the Supplementary Estimates. We took the Supplementary Estimates at the earliest possible moment, and we have taken the Army Estimates on the first occasion open to us. No one has been more anxious than I and my Colleagues to expedite these matters.
    MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORasked whose fault it was that this was the first
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    night on winch the Army Estimates could be taken?—it certainly was not the fault of hon. Members on that (the Opposition) side of the House. He would submit to the Committee whether it was not the fact that what the Government wanted was a sum of money? It did not matter what the Vote was on the Paper, so long as the Government obtained the money they wanted. It was desirable that it should not be a contentious Tote. As the hon. and gallant Baronet (Sir Walter B. Barttelot) had said, the Clothing Vote would probably not cause much discussion. However, there might be some discussion on it; and it would, therefore, be better to take the money on a Vote which would not be debated—some non-effective Vote. There were several Votes of that kind sufficiently large to give the Government, when passed, a sum large enough to enable them to meet all their pecuniary necessities. There was Vote 95, for instance, which amounted to £1,250,000, and the Vote for Out Pensions, which amounted to £2,000,000. Any of these Votes would suit the purpose of the Government as well as Vote 1; and he objected to taking Vote 1 under the pretence that they were to discuss it on another Vote. He was anxious to move the reduction of this Vote; but if the discussion were taken on another item he would not be able to do it. It would be futile to give him an occasion for discussion when it would be impossible to submit a proposal for the reduction of the Vote. He would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how he could possibly get out of that difficulty?
    SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: I would ask the Committee to consider in what position we stand in reference to Business at this moment. The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down asks whose fault it is that we are in the pre-: sent position? I do not desire to lay the fault on anyone; but, in justification of the Government, I would ask the Committee to remember that the House has sat now for five weeks. As regards Government Business, how has our time been expended? We gave up time to those subjects to which we were obliged to give it up. First of all, we gave up a great deal of time to the Address; and it must be remembered that in the old

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    days it never took more than two nights to dispose of that. How many nights has it occupied this year? The next Business we had to deal with was the Supplementary Estimates. [An hon. MEMBER: No; the Vote of Censure."] Yes; we had to dispose of the Vote of Censure and the Address, and then we came to the Supplementary Estimates. When I first came into the House it was unusual for the Supplementary Estimates to occupy many nights; and I venture to say that anyone who has sat here for 15 years will confirm that statement. I want to know, out of these five weeks which the House has sat, how many days has the Government been able to give to the Legislative Business of the year? I want to know that, because it is a question which may be asked in the country. The noble Earl the Member for North Northumberland (Earl Percy) says—"Oh; you ought not to have introduced the Representation of the People Bill." But I should like to ask him if he remembers any single Session in which, five weeks from the commencement, the Government have not introduced a single Bill? What have we given up to the Legislative Business of the country? Why, during the first five weeks of the Session we have taken the first reading of the principal measure we have to propose; and that is said to be an inordinate and improper proportion of the time of the Government to devote to Legislative Business, when the necessity for providing time for the discussion of the Estimates is considered. I venture to say it is a most singular—I do not say an unexampled, but a rare instance when the Government are not allowed to introduce a Bill and have it read a first time on the night of its introduction. This Session two nights have boon occupied with the introduction of the principal Government Bill, not through any desire of ours, but through the desire of hon. Gentlemen opposite, who wished to have two nights for the discussion. How, then, can it be fairly said that it is our fault that the Estimates have come on so late? As I have said, five weeks of the Session have now elapsed—[An hon. MEMBERS: No; six.] Well, six weeks today have elapsed since the House met, raid hon. Members know how we are
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    situated as to Business. I want to know—and I think everybody wants to know—how the Business of the country is going to be done? If it is rendered impossible to dispose of the Address under a fortnight; if it is made impossible for us to get the Supplementary Estimates without so much delay; and if it is made impossible for us to get Votes in Supply for the principal Departments of the State, how, I ask, is the Business of the country going to be done? What are we to do if we cannot get further than the first reading of a single measure in the first six weeks of the Session? It cannot be reasonably said that it is our fault that this Vote comes so late. It comes on the first day that the Government, by a reasonable disposal of the time of the House, could propose it. That being so, and my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer having said that it is essential, in order to properly conduct the Business of the Ways and Means Act, and with reference also to the ultimate passing of the Mutiny Act, that this Vote should be passed to-night, we ask the Committee to take the course that it has taken on several occasions—that is to say, to pass the Vote for Men, and to take the full discussion subsequently. That course has been taken on several previous occasions, and I ask why it is to be departed from now? What reason is there that that which has been done in former years should not be done now? There is none; therefore I think the request the Government makes is a reasonable one. Hon. Gentlemen may say that the time occupied by Government Business in the first six weeks of the Session has not been properly so occupied. I will not discuss that now, or quarrel with the proposition; but if there was no means of preventing the Vote coming on as it has come on, I hope the Committee will dispose of it as it has disposed of it on former occasions. Different courses have been suggested, to some of which objection has been stated; but what I ask is, why should we take a different course to that which has been followed on former occasions?
    SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: I do not know that there is much advantage to be gained at the present moment from going into a discussion as to whose

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    fault it is that the first six weeks of the Session have been spent as they have been. If we did go into a discussion of that question I think we on this side might have something to say upon it. I do not wish to take tip the time of the Committee by going into that, which really does not bear upon the question which is immediately before us. That question is, what we are to do with the Vote that has been proposed by the Government? With regard to that question, I suppose the immediate question we have to deal with is that with regard to the number of men. It is important that we should take the Tote for the Men as the foundation of the Army or Munity Bill, or whatever it is; called; and I apprehend that there will bono objection to taking it. But the question then arises, whether it is necessary, for that purpose, that we should pass a Vote for £4,250,000? "What is the object of our taking that large Tote at the present moment? It is in the nature of a Vote on Account for the whole of the Army Estimates; and if it is taken at this time to give the Government complete command of such money as is necessary to carry on the whole of the Army Services—not the particular Service for which it is voted, but the whole of the Army Services—for a considerable time, say three or four months, the difficulty may arise, which has arisen on former occasions, of getting a fair opportunity for discussing this important Vote. All the other Votes hinge on it, and yet it may be deferred to a very late period of the Session. What I would suggest is this. Of course, it is necessary that a Vote should be given on account for the Army Services, then let that Vote be given as a Vote on Account, and do not let it be £4,250,000, but, say, £2,000,000, which would enable the Government to carry on the service of the Army for a considerable time, though not for such a time as would enable them to postpone indefinitely the consideration of the Army Estimates. If that course were taken, I believe that all inconveniences would be got rid of. It would be a novel step, of course. [Ministerial cheers.] Yes; but hon. Members opposite must remember that now, since the New Rules came into force, we have been obliged to carry on our Business under novel conditions.
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    As a matter of fact, what the Government want is not this £4,250,000 for the particular pay of the men, but they want it for the whole of the Army Services of every kind and sort. It is a Vote on Account, and let us take it as such, and make it one of a reasonable amount.
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS): The right hon. Gentleman has said, truly enough, that to take a sum on account, in the manner he suggests, would be a novel course; but he did not add that the taking of such a Vote is not proposed now for the first time. It is a proposal which has been often made, and which he himself has resisted as firmly as anyone. The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister has also resisted these Votes on Account, and on this plain ground—that if you once take a Vote on Account, except in cases were the Government is about to dissolve, after a Vote of Censure, you set a very dangerous precedent. In other years it might be said—"Oh; if it is inconvenient to take the Army Estimates, postpone them—it is not necessary that the Minister should now make his statement; postpone it, and take a Vote on Account." In this way you might have a Vote on Account in March, another one later on, and the Minister's important statement might be postponed to the end of the Session. That is what has been stated over and over again; and that is my recollection of the objections urged against taking Votes on Account under circumstances like the present. What was the pledge I gave just now? Why, I stated that if the Committee would pass the first Vote we would do as we did last year—namely, set aside a full day for the consideration of the Army Estimates on another Vote. That shows that we are disposed to deal in perfect good faith with the Committee. As to the amount of money that will be wanted, I understand that during the first two months of thy year—that is to say, in April and May—£3,000,000 will be required. I have undertaken that the second Vote shall be taken before the Whitsuntide Recess.
    COLONEL STANLEYsaid, the right hon. Gentleman did not quite see the objection hon. Members felt. It was this—that whether there were any

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    agreement as to the discussion of the subject before the Committee or not, it was not possible, on subsequent Votes, to be in Order in discussing a great many questions that are se on the first Vote. The demand the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Home Secretary thought they were so unreasonable in making was this—that they should not be called upon, at 3 o'clock in the morning, to vote, without discussion, a sum of money which carried with it the substance of the Army Estimates. He (Colon el Stanley) thought the only course open to them was to place on record their objection to the Vote being taken under the circumstances; and, with that view, he regretted that he must challenge a Division on the Motion to report Progress, leaving it to the Committee to take the course which appeared best.
    MAJOR GENERAL ALEXANDERsaid, he was present during the whole of the Sitting of Saturday the 18th of August last year. On that day the House met at noon, and was occupied until 7 o'clock in the evening with the postponed Irish Votes, at which hour they entered upon the discussion of 19 out of 25 Votes on the Army Estimates—that was to say, out of 25 Votes there remained 19 for discussion on Saturday the 18th of August. At about 2 o'clock on Sunday morning the deadlock was so great that in order to get the Committee out of it he took the most unconstitutional course of offering to allow the whole of the remaining Votes to be taken without discussion, on condition that the discussion thereon should be taken on the following Monday on Report. The Prime Minister, much to his surprise, jumped at the proposal. That course was adopted; the whole of the remaining Votes were taken, and a most unsatisfactory discussion took place on Monday the 20th of August on the Report. He regarded that course of procedure with respect to the Army Estimates as most unsatisfactory, and one which ought not to be followed this year.
    MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid, that hon. Members could not have failed to notice that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had omitted to meet the point which he had raised. His point was, that if an hon. Member desired to move a reduction of Vote 1 he could not
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    do so on Vote 2, or any other Vote. It would be simply out of Order to move it on those Votes, and the Motion could not be put from the Chair, Now, if an hon. Member wished to move the reduction of the present Vote, what opportunity would he have for so doing? He remembered an occasion on which he himself was successful in forcing the Government to submit to a reduction of a Vote, and perhaps on another occasion he might be able to do the same thing.
    MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, he had a Motion to make for the reduction of the number of men, and if the Vote was entered upon at 2 o'clock in the morning, he should take quite as much interest in it as he should at 6 o'clock in the evening.
    Question put.
    The Committee divided:—Ayes 70; Noes 120: Majority 50.—(Div. List, No. 43.)
    Original Question again proposed.
    MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, the Committee had gone through the ordinary course on the Army Estimates that evening. The Committee had listened to a large number of speeches from Gentlemen opposite of a not very practical kind. Those speeches had been confined to suggestions for the increase of expenditure. Some hon. Members wished that the Army should be increased by 60,000 men, and there had been a long discussion as to the colour to be worn in Her Majesty's Service. He was not surprised at these proposals, because he found that 168 Members in that House were more or less connected with the Army or Navy, and those Gentlemen were naturally anxious to carry out their views. He did not blame them; he only blamed the House for leaving the discussion entirely in the hands of those Gentlemen. Approaching the question from a different point of view, he considered that in connection with the English Army there was an enormous amount of waste and extravagance, and that the Army itself had in it too great a number of men. It appeared from statistics laid before the Royal United Service Institute in 1876, that the cost of the English Army per head was almost double that of the German Army, and that the average pay of

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    all ranks, privates included, was much greater in the English than in the German Army. Notwithstanding that, the soldier was no bettor off in England than in Germany, the reason being that the Army was at present conducted not so much for the benefit of the soldiers as for the benefit of the officers. A I colonel in the Guards, for instance, received £800 per annum, and he (Mr. Labouchere) believed that persons could I be found equally efficient who would perform the duties for a much loss sum. He wanted to call attention to these absurdities. At the age of 45 a colonel retired on a pension of £300or £400 a-year, and at the age of 42 a captain retired on a pension of £200 or £300 a-year. In almost every town in the country a number of retired colonels and captains were to be found who were living on the money of the public. It mattered not what Government was in Office—Liberal or Conservative—they were both equally to blame fur throwing on the country men in the prime of life who could serve the country perfectly well without a pension. For his own part, he would say nothing of the efficiency of the Army; but he had often heard Gentlemen connected with the Army explaining in that House that it was worth absolutely nothing. If that were the view of hon. Gentlemen opposite, he should be happy to move a much larger reduction of these worthless soldiers than he had intended. But his main object in moving the reduction of the number of men was that he thought Her Majesty's Government had far too many soldiers at their disposal. The country had been involved in wars during the last 300 or 400 years; and he did not be have there was a single war related in history which could be shown to have been of the slightest service to them. Those large wars were generally caused by their meddling and muddling on the Continent; but, besides them, there had been many small wars, the most recent examples being the wars in India and Africa. Notwithstanding the slang phrase of 20 years ago, that England could not afford a small war, we had had a good number of small wars. Since the present Ministry came into power there had been the Zulu War, the Transvaal War, the Egyptian War, and at that moment they were engaged in the Soudan War—the work of these
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    friends of peace. He had, of course, speaking politically, a very poor opinion of the Tories; but he did not think they ought to be blamed for what had happened in the Soudan. He did not believed they even know that disturbanees in the Soudan existed. However that might be, he considered that the Government had too many soldiers. They had had soldiers in Egypt for the last 18 months; and if the Government had not had so many soldiers their troops would probably not have been sent there. No one could pretend to say why their troops were in Egypt; and although Her Majesty's Government wore desirous and anxious to afford the House ail the information in their power, they had been unable to say why the troops were there, because they did not know themselves, the only reason was that they had so many men for whom they thought it necessary to find employment; and if the present state of things were to continue they would shortly have to find some other region where barbarians would have to be killed, or something done in the interest of commerce, or of their Manchester friends. This year the increase of the Army was from 137,632 to 140,314 men; in other words, 3,682 men. Deducting from that number the one or two small reductions in the Cavalry and Commissariat branches, there remained an increase of 2,687 men, and by that number he begged to move the reduction of the Vote.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a number of Land Forces, not exceeding 137,627, all ranks, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at Home and Abroad, excluding Her Majesty's Indian Possessions, during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1885."—(Mr. Labouchere.)
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid, the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere), who moved the reduction of the Vote, had described the speeches made by hon. Members in the course of the evening on the subject of the Army as of a highly unpractical character. He did not know whether the hon. Member thought his own speech a practical one; but, as far as he (Mr. Balfour) could understand it, his speech was composed of some casual statistics, mixed up with the echoes of a number of speeches delivered by hon. Gentlemen on that side of the House against the Government

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    of which the hon. Member was, or was supposed by his constituents to be, a supporter. His object in rising, however, was not to continue the discussion initiated by the hon. Member, but to suggest-to the Government that they might, perhaps, with advantage close the debate that evening, on the understanding that no objection should be raised on that side of the House to the Vote for Men and Money, provided that Tier Majesty's Government gave a day before Easter for the discussion of questions connected with the Army. That appeared to him to be a reasonable compromise; and in order that the Government might discuss it, he begged to move that Progress be reported.
    Motion made, and Question proposed. "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
    THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, he might state at once that the proposal of the hon. Member (Mr. A. J. Balfour) would not be a satisfactory one to the Government. He did not remember a Session of Parliament in which a second discussion on the Army Estimates had taken place before Easter; but, apart from the absence of precedent, the circumstances referred to by his right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department had not made it easier for the Government to find an additional day for a continued discussion of a subject such as this. It appeared to him that the proposal of the Government was a reasonable one, and the only one which it was possible for them to make. He could not but think that the proposal of the hon. Member was one which would be absolutely fatal to any chance of proceeding before Easter with the main legislative proposal of the Government; and on that ground, if on no other. Her Majesty's Government were not in a position to accede to it.
    Question put.
    The Committee divided:—Ayes 63; Noes 115: Majority 52.—(Div. List, No. 44.)
    Original Question again proposed.
    THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: Sir, I quite agree with the hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. J. A. Balfour; that the speech in which the hon. Member for
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    Northampton (Mr. Labouchere) introduced his Motion was not one of a practical character. The greater part of that speech was a comment upon what the hon. Member considered to be the enormous extravagance that went on in connection with the Army. That is a point, however, which has nothing to do with the Motion before the Committee; it rather has to do with the number of men who would remain, were the reduction proposed by the hon. Member to be sanctioned by Parliament. The only sentence of the hon. Member that appeared to me to be at all in the nature of an argument in support of his Motion was his statement that the Government had at their disposal a great deal too many soldiers, and that their having so many was the cause of the wars in which the country had been engaged. Considering the armaments of foreign nations, one would have thought that it would be the very last accusation brought against our Army, that it was too large. The additional number of men which I have asked the Committee to sanction is entirely the consequence of the prolonged occupation of Egypt, which has cast upon the British Army duties external to its ordinary duties. For these reasons, I trust the Committee will support Her Majesty's Government in their moderate and reasonable proposal.
    Question put,
    "That a number of Land Force?, not exceeding 137,627, nil ranks, he maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at Home and Abroad, excluding Her Majesty's Indian Possessions, during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1885."
    The Committee divided:—Ayes 11; Noes 152: Majority 141.—(Div. List, No. 45.)
    Original Question put, and agreed to.
    (2.) £4,230,000, Pay and Allowances.
    SIR MICHAEL HICKS- BEACHsaid, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had promised that a day between Easter and Whitsuntide should be devoted to a discussion of these Estimates. He did not wish to weary the Committee except by way of protest against this improper mode of voting money without discussion. He wished to ask that not only a day between Easter and Whitsuntide should be given for this purpose, but that two days should be given, or such fur-

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    ther time as might be necessary, to the fair discussion of those Estimates. Whitsuntide was later this year than it was last year. Last year these Estimates were not discussed until the 18th of August. That was much too late in the Session; and he hoped Tier Majesty's Government would engage that the discussion should not be put off to so late a period again.
    THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: I do not think it is possible to give a further pledge than we have given—namely, that we will undertake that there is a day between Easter and Whitsuntide for the discussion of the Estimates. There is nothing so exceptional in the present Session—no such extraordinary an amount of time—as to enable the Government to be more profuse and liberal in regard to its time than any other Government has been. We have had a very practical discussion the whole of this evening; and if hon. Members would endeavour to restrict their observations we might now make considerable further progress. With regard to the right hon. Baronet's remarks as to the discussion last year, no doubt the 18th of August was somewhat later than is desirable; still, the discussion was a very full one, and several questions were discussed at considerable length. Of course, I do not mean to say that is not later than any Government would desire to bring on important Estimates; but we had had several days' previous discussion on the Army Estimates, and the whole Vote was taken just as fully as the first Vote.
    MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, the Estimates last year were not actually discussed until the 18th of August.
    THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, the discussions were in May, June, and July, and the last was on August 18th.
    MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, no doubt there were discussions on some of the Votes in those months, but 19 were actually postponed till the 18th of August; and although, as the noble Marquess had said, there was a full discussion then, it was a discussion by but a few Members. So far as he could see, it appeared to be the intention of the Government to give only one day before Whitsuntide; and he would put it to right hon. Gentlemen opposite whether they thought one day sufficient
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    for the proper discussion of the Army Estimates? Year after year the proper discussion of these Votes was postponed, and it was likely to be again postponed this year, unless a strong protest was made on this side of the House. The Government had got tonight the Vote for Men. They had been called a Jingo Government; and he thought they would probably say to themselves that, having got the men, they would get the ships and get the money too. Considering the way in which they had got the men. and the money, and the ships in past years without proper discussion, they ought not to be allowed to do it again.
    MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORasked hon. Members who were interested in the question at this moment to consider the position of one who rose at this time of the night to move a reduction of the Vote. If he could speak a great deal more effectually than he was able to do, he feared he should have little chance of convincing anybody of the unreasonableness of this Vote; but, if time permitted, he could show that there might be a considerable curtailment, in expenses without any reduction of efficiency; but it would be absurd, at that hour, to go into that. But. with regard to one point, he had listened to the speech of the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War with interest and attention, with the hope of discovering the intentions of the Government with regard to a very important Department of their military administration—namely, the Pay Department. He observed that there were considerable changes in the figures relating to officers of different ranks in that Department, although the noble Marquess and the Financial Secretary had recently stated that several changes in the existing system recommended had not been adopted. The noble Marquess, however, passed over this subject entirely. This Department was a very important one, and was second to none in the importance of the duties and responsibilities thrown upon its officers. Pretty well half the Army Estimates went through their hands; but this was not the only Department of their Army administration which was not represented at the War Office. The Commissariat, Ordnance, Stores, Medical and Clerical Departments were represented at head-quarters; but there was no

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    representative to protect the interests of this Department. But although he thought that was a subject which deseryed considerable attention at the hands of the Army authorities, he felt that this was not an hour at which he could hope to secure any concession, or even secure any consideration, for the deserving officers whose claims he wished to bring forward. In order, however, to show how much might be said upon this Vote if it was closely examined, he would state that he was prepared to move, if the opportunity were more favourable, the reduction of the Vote by one entire item—namely, the amount for the Riding Establishment of the Artillery. That was a perfectly useless institution. It cost a great deal of money; it had done little or no good for 25 years; and it kept 50 gunners and drivers in practical idleness. It was organized, he believed, in 1859, when the Artillery was re-organized. It then became a very ornamental institution. Each brigade of Artillery they reorganized received a riding master, and recruits for the Artillery, instead of going to the regular riding establishment, received their lessons in the brigade to which they belonged; and he supposed that any Artilleryman might be enlisted and serve until he had gained a pension without ever using the riding establishment at Woolwich. But, at the same time, a General Order was issued directing that non-commissioned officers, though not drivers, should be sent by each brigade to Woolwich; but oven that limited use of the riding establishment was put a stop to by His Royal Highness, who was at that time, as now, the Commander-in-Chief. That was on the ground that there was a Cavalry depôt at Maidstone, where all the riding that was required could be taught to Artillerymen as well as to anyone else. Then, again, the officer commanding the riding establishment received an allowance £120 a-year for teaching a regiment of Artillery and a company of gentlemen cadets to ride; and it was proposed in there-organization of the Artillery to contribute this sum to the various brigades. But there was a Major Henry, a Crimean veteran, who lost his arm at the Alma, who was then in command; and principally out of consideration to him, and to do him a good turn, this allowance was turned
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    into a command allowance. It was not intended that it should be continued beyond his length of service; but it had been continued up to the present time. The commander, therefore, received£120 a-year, though he had practically nothing to do. A lieutenant colonel in command of an Infantry regiment received only a guinea a-week. It would be difficult to say what were the duties of he gunners, 60 drivers, and four combatant officers at Woolwich—it would be difficult to say why all the necessary equitation could not be taught at the depôt brigade of the Artillery. The Vote of£6,653 for Pay was a useless expenditure of money; but that represented a very small amount of the total cost of those riding establishments. How much the establishments really cost he could not make out; but it must be a great deal more than this £6,653. The Vote might be reduced by many small items; but, as he said before, it was perfectly useless then to move a reduction, or to expect the Committee to entertain any of the considerations he had put before them with regard to the character of the Vote, he would, therefore, abstain from moving anything?
    THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, he had never had his attention called to the riding establishment, and the Committee would easily understand the difficulty experienced by a Minister in making himself acquainted with all the minutiœ of a Department. He was afraid he could not give the hon. Member any details at the present moment; but he would promise him that he would make further inquiries, and give information at a later period.
    MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid, he was obliged to the noble Marquess for that assurance, and should rest satisfied with it. He had no doubt that when the matter was inquired into it would be found that the expenditure he had called attention to was perfectly unjustifiable. He was convinced that it would be seen that this charge was made for the pay of men who were of no earthly use whatever, except to draw their pay. He should look forward to a reduction of the Vote next year.
    Vote agreed to.
    Resolutions to be reported To-morrow, at Two of the Clock.
    Committee to sit again To-morrow.

    SUPPLY.—REPORT.
    Resolutions [March 14] reported.
    Resolution 1 agreed, to.
    Resolution 2.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £102.000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1884 for the Expenses of the Post Office Service."
    MR. HEALYsaid, he saw the Secretary to the Treasury in his place, and he would therefore address a question to him which if the Postmaster General had been present he should have put to that official. The Postmaster General had promised to make a statement with regard to a certain Postmaster named Walsh; and he should like to know whether the Government were able to say how it was that this official, who had been convicted by two magistrates under the Prevention of Crime Act, had been released by the Lord Justices on the motion of the Lord Lieutenant? The Postmaster General had given out that Mr. Walsh was innocent, and therefore he had been retained at his post; but it was a singular thing that other people, through the mere fact of being suspected, had been instantly dismissed. It was remarkable that Walsh, who was an Orangeman, had been retained, notwithstanding the action taken against him by magistrates under the Prevention of Crime Act; whereas a Postmaster named Barrett had been dismissed. Why had not Mr. Barrett been re-instated in a similar manner?
    MR. FAWCETTsaid, he was Sorry that he happened to be absent when the hon. Member commenced his observations. As to the matter referred to, he had obtained some information; and ha had found that Mr. Walsh, who had been arrested under the Coercion Act, charged with having sent a threatening letter, had been re-instated by the Lords Justices because they found. after reviewing the evidence, that it was by no means clear that he had committed the offence charged against him. As to the other cases, he had been asked the other night as to whether anyone who had been arrested under the Coercion Act had been restored to duty? He had made inquiries, and found that only four
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    people in any way connected with the Post Office had been arrested under the Coercion Act. One of those would have been dismissed from the Service for some irregularity, whether arrested under the Coercion Act or not; in fact, it had been recommended that he should be prosecuted, although a milder course had been adopted in his case. In another case, a Mr. Murphy, who had been arrested, had endeavoured to appoint his sister as a substitute, but had not been able to do so; but as he had discharged his work in connection with the Post Office satisfactorily, he had been allowed to retain his position of Postmaster at Milford, and was still occupying it. As to the two Barretts, who wore arrested under the Coercion Act, no application for re-instatement was received from Nicholas Barrett on his release. The other, Edward Barrett, was not an established officer of the Post Office, but had been merely employed under a private arrangement with the Postmaster of Craughwell, and no application for reinstatement had been received from him.
    Resolution agreed to.
    Remaining Resolution agreed to.

    SUPPLY.—REPORT.
    Resolutions [March 15] reported.
    Resolutions 1 to 4 agreed to.
    Resolution 5.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £1,000, he granted to Her Majesty to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1884, for (he Salaries, Allowances, and Expenses of various County Court Officers, and of Magistrates in Ireland, and of the Revising Barristers of the City of Dublin."
    MR. KENNYsaid, he did not, at this advanced hour (3.50 A.M.), press for a reply to the questions he had found it necessary to put to the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant with regard to the action of the magistrates in Ireland. Still, if the right hon. Gentleman was in a position to reply, he might find it convenient to do so now.
    MR. HEALYasked whether the two years' leave of absence, even if it were without pay, which had been given to Mr. Clifford Lloyd, had not been without

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    precedent? Professor Baldwin, notwithstanding the meritorious work in which he had been engaged, had received only one year's leave of absence. Mr. Clifford Lloyd had been transferred from Limerick to Egypt for two years, and it was desirable that some explanation should be given of that long leave—though Heaven knew they did not want him back in Ireland. Mr. Clifford Lloyd was now exercising his tyranny on the Egyptians. He had first practised on the Burmese; then he went to Ireland; and ultimately he was sent to Cairo. Would he come back to Ireland? If so, there would be no standing him. The House should have some statement to the effect that Mr. Clifford Lloyd would become worn out in the service on which he was now engaged, and that he would be one of those meritorious gentlemen deserving of a pension—or anything, so that they did not have him back again in Ireland. As to the Bill they had that morning induced the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary to promise them, he (Mr. Healy) would ask on what date the House might expect it to be brought in?
    MR. TEEVELYANsaid, he should have been very glad to have been able to answer all the questions which the hon. Member for Ennis (Mr. Kenny) had put to him; but the hon. Member himself seemed hardly to expect that he should do so. The only question he could answer was one which he was afraid he should not be able to reply to in a manner satisfactory to the hon. Member—namely, that in regard to the meeting which had boon stopped at Ennis, the hon. Member had given an accurate statement of the facts. The meeting had been stopped on the ground that several outrages had occurred within 10 miles of Ennis. On a previous occasion he (Mr. Trevelyan) had read a list of the outrages to the House in the hearing of the hon. Member, and those outrages had been of a nature which were like to have been very much promoted and encouraged by a speech which had recently been made at Tulla, County Cork, by the hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar). The hon. Member was advertized to address the meeting that was suppressed, and that was among the motives which had induced the Executive to put a stop to the demonstration. The hon. Member for Mouaghan
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    (Mr. Healy) had asked him two questions, one relating to Mr. Clifford Lloyd, and the other having reference to a. subject which he (Mr. Trevelyan) had promised to bring forward. With regard to Mr. Clifford Lloyd, his impression was that he had said that arrangements would be made for giving leave of absence, if necessary, for two years. Precedents might easily be found for gentlemen having received leave of absence of that kind, particularly in cases where public servants had been sent to Public Departments in India and other places. [Mr. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: Not for more than a year.] In the case of Sir Rivers Wilson a leave of absence of considerable length had been granted. He himself had been in India when a whole batch of gentlemen from the Treasury were sent to that country. Since then a financier had been sent to Turkey; and a Factory Inspector had just been sent for three years to Bombay. The hon. Member compared the two years' leave of absence of Mr. Clifford Lloyd with the one year's leave of absence to Professor Baldwin. An attack might be made upon the action of the Government from an entirely different point of view. As he had already stated, the case of Professor Baldwin was without precedent; but he was quite willing to make a precedent of it. The British Government had lent Professor Baldwin, not to another Government, but to a Company, for the purpose of carrying on proceedings in the success of which Her Majesty's Government took a friendly interest. The circumstance of lending Professor Baldwin's services was an entirely novel circumstance, but, at the same time, one which he was very glad to be connected with. As to the Bill which the Government proposed to bring in, and which the hon. Member for Monaghan (Mr. Healy) had referred to, he hoped there would be no difficulty in his being able very soon to lay it before the House. He had already put himself in communication by letter, and had received answers by telegraph from Dublin, on the subject. It was a Bill which, if it were not necessary for him to consult with Dublin, he could draw up with the greatest ease in a single morning in his office in London. What he would pledge himself to was that, unless hon. Members opposed its introduction, or

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    made it difficult to proceed with it, he would bring it in within the present financial year. His impression certainly was that it would be a very short measure.
    Resolution agreed to.

    WAYS AND MEANS.
    Considered in Committee.
    (In the Committee.)
    Resolved, That towards making good the Supply granted to Her Majesty for the Service of the years ending on the 31st day of March 1883 and 1884, the sum of £1,384,655 14 s. 10 d. be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom.
    Resolution to be reported To-morrow, at two of the clock.
    Committee to sit again. To-morrow.

  MOTIONS.
    CHARITABLE TRUSTS ACTS.
    Select Committee appointed, "to inquire into the operation of the Charitable Trusts Acts 1853 to 1869, and to consider and Report how far it may be expedient to amend the powers exercised under them by the Charity Commissioners."—(Mr. Shaw Lefevre.)

    ISLE OF MAN HARBOURS BILL.
    On Motion of Mr. JOHN HOLMS, Bill for amending the Isle of Man Harbours Acts 1872 and 1874, ordered to be brought in by Mr. JOHN HOLMS and Mr. CHAMBERLAIN.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 138.]

    ROYAL COURTS OF JUSTICE BILL.
    On Motion of Mr. COURTNEY, Bill to make further provision with respect to moneys advanced for the building of the Royal Courts of Justice, ordered to be brought in by Mr. COURTNEY and Mr. HERBERT GLADSTONE.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 139.]
    House adjourned at a quarter before Four o'clock in the morning.