Commons Sitting of 17 June 1884

Preamble
The House met at Two of the clock.
MINUTES—SUPPLY—considered in Committee— Resolution [June 16] reported.
PRIVATE BILLS (by Order)—Considered an amended —North Metropolitan Tramways *; South Eastern Metropolitan (Lewisham, Greenwich, and District Tramways).*
PUBLIC BILLS—Standing Committee on Law, &c. —Report—Municipal Elections (Corrupt and Illegal Practices) * [No. 220] [3–252.]
Second Reading—Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 5) (City and County of Bristol, and others) * [239]; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 6) (Bournemouth and others) * [240]; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 7) (Accrington and others) * [241]; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 8) (Borough of Aberavon and others) * [242]; Local Government Provisional Order (Poor Law) (No. 14) (Dawlish and Kenton) * [243]; Local Government Provisional Order (Poor Law) (No. 15) Saint Luke (Middlesex) * [246]; Tramways and Public Companies (Ireland) Act (1883) Amendment [231], debate adjourned.
Committee—Representation of the People [119] (New Clauses) [Tenth Night]—R. P.
Report—Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 2) (Districts of Dorking and Hendon, &c.) * [190]; Tramways Provisional Orders (Birmingham and Aston Tramways, &c.) * [180]; Tramways Provisional Orders (No. 3) (Barrow-in-Furness Tramways and others) * [194].

QUESTIONS.

  POST OFFICE ANNUITY AND INSURANCE—THE TABLES.
  MR. RANKINasked the Postmaster General, If in the New Annuity Tables shortly to be issued by the Post Office Department, he will frame a simple and easily understood Table, by which persons of either sex may, by annual payments made between the ages of eighteen and twenty-five, purchase an annuity of ten pounds payable on and after sixty years of age; and also, if he consents to do this, whether he will direct such Table to be placed in a conspicuous position at every post office?
  MR. FAWCETT: The new Post Office Annuity and Insurance Tables were issued a fortnight ago, and they can now be seen or purchased at any post office where there is a savings bank. The Department has been most anxious to make the scheme as simple and as intelligible as possible. Annuities can be purchased by any person of five years of age and upwards for any amount not less than £1, or any multiple of £1 up to £100, the annuity to commence at 60 or an earlier age. The Tables are prepared so as to show at a glance the cost of an annuity of £1 to commence at any age within the prescribed limits. It will simply be necessary to multiply the premium for £1 by the number of pounds. It is intended that the scheme should be made known as far as possible through the issue of notices containing simple examples; but I fear, if the particular suggestion of the hon. Member were carried out, of giving examples confined to the ages of 18 to 25, it might produce an impression that these were the only ages allowed. If, however, the hon. Member will communicate with me I shall be very glad to discuss the subject with him.

  THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND) — THE REV. JOHN BR1EN FRITH (CO. FERMANAGH).
  MR. SEXTONasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether the Rev. John Brien Frith, a J. P. for the county of Fermanagh, is the same person as the Rev. J. B. Frith, who was condemned by Mr. Justice Lawson for committing a fraud upon

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  the Commissioners of Church Temporalities in Ireland, whilst rector of a parish in the neighbourhood of Dundalk, by procuring an incumbent of an adjacent parish to appoint him a sham curate, he giving the said incumbent a similar sham appointment; and, whether, if they are the same person, the Rev. J. B. Frith will be retained in the Commission of the Peace?
  MR. TREVELYAN: There is no information in the possession of the Government to warrant the statement that Mr. Frith was condemned for fraud. He claimed an annuity as Incumbent of Camlough, and also as Curate of Meigh in the same diocese. Mr. Justice Lawson allowed his claim as incumbent and disallowed the claim as curate. Mr. Frith did not appeal against this decision. Another case which appears to have been intimately connected with this ended differently. The clergyman who was Incumbent of Meigh claimed in that capacity and also as Curate of Camlough. In his case also the claim in respect of the curacy was disallowed by Mr. Justice Lawson; but he appealed to the three Commissioners, and in the result the claim was allowed.

  ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY — REMOVAL OF CONSTABLE SHUDALL FROM CORBETSTOWN POLICE STATION TO THE UNION FEVER HOSPITAL.
  MR. SEXTONasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether it is the fact that Sergeant Thompson, who, in April last, was in charge of the Corbetstown (county Kilkenny) Police Station, reported that a constable named Shudall, quartered at that station, who had been attacked by fever, had been removed to the Union Fever Hospital in a "nuisance car," or a "dung car;" whether, in consequence, a personal inquiry was made at the Workhouse by Sergeant Thompson's superior officer, Head Constable Burke, and it was established that, as the owners of public conveyances had refused to allow the use of any of them for the removal of a person suffering from a contagious disease, the master of the Workhouse, by direction of the medical officer, provided for the constable the conveyance specially procured for such cases by the guardians, and had the constable removed under the care of
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  a qualified nurse, and with, all practicable comfort; whether the guardians of the Union, by unanimous resolution, adopted on the 3rd instant, characterized the report of Sergeant Thompson as calculated to impeach the administration of the affairs of the Union, and to affect, injuriously, the character of the officials, and whether the guardians unanimously called for a copy of the report; and, whether copies of the report, and all other reports, statements, or decisions in regard to it by other officers of the Constabulary Force, will be laid upon the Table?
  MR. TREVELYAN: Sergeant Thompson did complain to his officer that one of his men, who was suffering from fever, was removed to hospital on an open cart, which he believed was a nuisance cart. Inquiry showed that he was wrong in this opinion, the vehicle being an open cart used by the Union for the removal of patients. The Sergeant made no complaint against any person. The Board of Guardians asked the Inspector General for a copy of the Report. The Inspector General could not comply with this request, but informed the Guardians that the Sergeant had made some statements in ignorance of the facts, to which his attention had been drawn, with the view of his being more cautious in future. I cannot undertake to lay copies of the Report, &c. on the Table. There would be a manifest objection to the production of communications made by members of the Police Force to their own officers.

  THE LUNACY COMMISSIONERS— "THE BASTILLES OF ENGLAND."
  SIR EARDLEY WILMOTasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, If his attention has been drawn to a recent publication entitled The Bastilles of England, in which, grave charges are made against certain Lunacy Commissioners; and, if so, whether any steps will be taken to inquire into the truth of the said charges, or whether there is any foundation for them?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: I know nothing of the publication in question; but I would point out to the hon. Baronet that any complaint made against the Lunacy Commissioners should be addressed to the Lord Chancellor, who is the authority in such matters.

  EGYPT (EVENTS IN THE SOUDAN)— RUMOURED FALL OF BERBER.
  MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether Her Majesty's Ministers have received confirmation of the account of the storming of Berber, sent by the Correspondent of The Times at Korosko, on 13th June, in which "an Arab, present at the attack on 23rd May," states that "the defenders bravely fought for two hours, and then, their ammunition being exhausted, the rebels 'rushed' the town, and slaughtered the garrison of 1,500 men and about 2,000 of the male population, sparing the women and children;" why the reinforcements and ammunition for which the Governor prayed on 20th April, and which Nubar Pacha advised should be given to him, were not sent; whether the fall of Berber will affect the security of Dongola; whether it is a fact, as stated by the Correspondent of The Times, that "the Mahdi's forces are within eight days' march of Dongola or Korosko," and that there are "only 300 Egyptian troops at Dongola and 300 at Korosko, with Major Kitchener's Bedouins of doubtful fidelity; whether there is "nothing to prevent the Mahdi from sweeping down on any position in Egypt within twelve hours of Cairo;" and, whether his attention has been called to the further statements, that "opinions are unanimous that Dongola should be defended at all hazards," and that "the advance of British troops is necessary, as the majority of the population freely state that they will wait to see which side is stronger before declaring themselves?"
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: The details alluded to by the hon. Member in the first paragraph of his Question have not reached the Foreign Office. The reinforcements asked for by the Governor of Berber were not sent, because, after consultation between the civil and military authorities, it appeared that, considering the season of the year and other circumstances, it was impracticable to comply with his request. The third paragraph of the hon. Member's Question is a matter of opinion. I am not in a position to state whether the Mahdi's forces are eight days' march from Dongola or Korosko; but I may point out that about 350 miles intervene
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  between those two places. A telegram of May 30 announced that it was the intention of the Egyptian Government to raise the garrison of Korosko to a full battalion, and to send to Assouan another battalion and two or three squadrons of Egyptian Cavalry. I cannot state the exact number of men at Dongola. The fifth and sixth paragraphs of the hon. Member's Question are matters of opinion.
  SIR HERBERT MAXWELL: Will the noble Lord state what were the views of the military authorities in this country on the refusal to send the reinforcements and ammunition asked for by the Governor of Berber?
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: I do not think it is at all desirable that I should, from day to day, be called upon to enter into these purely military questions; and I wish to inform the hon. Baronet that military Questions ought not to be addressed to the Foreign Office.
  MR. J. LOWTHER: It may have been right or not for the noble Lord to state what he did; but the noble Lord did state that there had been consultations between the civil and military authorities. To whom was he alluding?
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: That is not the same Question as that asked by the hon. Member for Wigtonshire, and I have no objection to answering it. I alluded to the military authorities in Egypt.
  VISCOUNT FOLKESTONE: I wish to ask, whether, in view of the fact that on April 23 Hussein Khalifa said that— "If Berber falls there will be no hope for the Soudan;" and, also, in view of the fact that Sir Evelyn Baring, on April 20, stated that the fall of Berber would seriously affect Gordon's position, any steps, and what steps, have been taken to protect General Gordon from the consequences therein anticipated?
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: Evidently that is a Question which ought to be put on the Paper; but I do not see how, under any circumstances, I, or anybody else, can be expected to know what Hussein Khalifa said to somebody else.
  SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOT: On April 23 the Governor of Berber telegraphed—
  "We are in great danger, and have only sixty oases of ammunition. Send ammunition

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  quickly, and also troops which I asked for yesterday."
  Are we to understand that the noble Lord's answer is that the authorities decided that it would be unwise and imprudent to send troops for the relief of Berber?
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: That is exactly what I stated, and I have nothing to add.
  SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOT: And, therefore, Berber has been allowed to fall.
  VISCOUNT FOLKESTONE: The noble Lord says the Government are not supposed to know what Hussein Khalifa has said. Are they supposed to know what Sir Evelyn Baring said? My Question was founded on what Sir Evelyn Baring said, that the fall of Berber would seriously affect the position of General Gordon.
  MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: With regard to the reply of the noble Lord to paragraphs 2 and 3 of my Question, I beg to ask him, whether he will recall the telegram from Mr. Egerton to Lord Granville, dated April 23, in which he said that Nubar Pasha's opinion was that, considering the pressing demands of the Governor, the two Egyptian battalions at Assouan should be sent on at once to Berber; and, further, whether he is aware that the Prime Minister informed the House that the fall of Berber would not affect the position of Khartoum?
  MR. GLADSTONE: I must protest against this practice of the hon. Member. He is constantly making grossly inaccurate statements, which he coolly ascribes to me. I never used the words he has uttered. I must say that unless the hon. Gentleman entirely changes his habit no attention ought to be paid to him.
  MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: Out of respect to the Prime Minister I am justified in challenging him to give me a single instance in which I have quoted him inaccurately.
  MR. GLADSTONE: Yes, Sir. [Cries of "Order!"]
  MR. SPEAKER: I am bound to say this sort of irregular debate is entirely out of Order, If the hon. Member will put his statement in the form of a Question, he will be in Order.
  MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: I will repeat the Question now, giving the ipsissima verba of the Prime Minister,
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  which he says I quoted grossly inaccurately. On the 24th of April the right hon. Gentleman was asked by the noble Lord the Member for Woodstock (Lord Randolph Churchill) whether if Berber fell the position of Gordon would not then become a position of peril? The right hon. Gentleman replied—
  "We believe, according to all the information we possess, that there will be no essential change in the position of Khartoum in consequence of the fall of Berber."
  I beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, after that, he really considers he was justified in accusing me of misquoting him?
  MR. GLADSTONE: Yes, Sir, I do; both to-day and every day.
  MR. J. LOWTHER: On what does the right hon. Gentleman base that accusation?
  [No reply.]

  POST OFFICE (TELEGRAPH DEPARTMENT).
  MR. HOULDSWORTHasked the Postmaster General, Whether all communication of telegraphic news supplied to clubs at "Press rates" to persons not members of such clubs is treated by the Department as an abuse of the privilege, or if it is only when such news is communicated by means of private telephones that it is so treated?
  MR. FAWCETT: News is supplied at Press rates to clubs registered at the General Post Office, on condition that such news is used solely for exhibition in the club-rooms. The systematic communication of such news to persons other than members of the club, whether the communication be by telephone or otherwise, is held by the Department to be an abuse of the privilege.

  EGYPT (AFFAIRS OF THE SOUDAN)— SUAKIN AND NILE RAILWAY.
  SIR HENRY TYLERasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether Her Majesty's Government contemplate the construction of a Railway between Suakin and the Nile?
  MR. GLADSTONE: In answer to the hon. Member, I have to say that it has been the duty of the Government to consider very carefully all questions relating to the probability of sending an expedition southward in Egypt; and, among others, the question as to whe-

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  ther it would be expedient to construct a railway between Suakin and the Nile, and all other particulars relating to the construction of that railway. Further than that I do not think it would be for the public interest to say.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
  REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL.— [BILL 119.]
  (Mr. Gladstone, Mr. Attorney General, Mr. Trevelyan, The Lord Advocate.)
  REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL.— [BILL 119.]

    COMMITTEE. [Progress 13th June.] [TENTH NIGHT.]
    Bill considered in Committee.
    (In the Committee.)
    New Clauses.
    EARL PERCT, in rising to move the following clause:—
    (Persons serving in sea or land forces of Her Majesty.)
    "Any man serving in Her Majesty's sea or land forces, and occupying separate quarters in any building belonging to or being occupied on behalf of the Crown, shall be deemed for the purposes of this Act and of the Representation of the People Acts to be an inhabitant occupier of such building as a tenant,"
    said, he was sorry to have to raise this point again; but, with due deference to the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman, he found that considerable doubt prevailed on the part of his hon. Friends upon that side of the House whether the provision he sought to include in the Bill was already included in it or not, and he thought it was desirable that the doubt should be cleared up. No one in that House would dispute that the class included in his Amendment was fully entitled to enjoy the franchise. It included seamen and others, who, although of the same class as those who enjoyed the franchise, were at present deprived of their rights. He believed that in some cases Marines, and in other cases seamen, did enjoy the franchise; but those classes did not enjoy it generally, and would not be enfranchised unless a clause of this nature were inserted in the Bill. What he wished to learn from the Government was, whether the term "dwelling-house" included a separate room or rooms in which a non-commissioned
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    officer or an officer lived in barracks? Of course, there was this very great difficulty—that they were constantly moving about entirely without any fault of their own, and were thus deprived of the franchise. That was a difficulty which he confessed he did not see the possibility of remedying; but it was extremely hard, where a regiment was quartered for a long time in the same town, and where non-commissioned officers had separate dwellings, that they should enjoy the franchise, while those non-commissioned officers who had rooms in barracks were deprived of the vote. If there was any doubt about the matter he thought it ought to be made clear. He did not understand that there was any objection to the principle of the clause, and he was quite willing to qualify the words in any way that would gain the object in view. He put it earnestly to the Government whether they would not consent to the clause or introduce one of their own?
    New Clause (Persons serving in sea or land forces of Her Majesty,)—(Earl Percy,)—brought up, and read the first time.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be now read a second time."
    SIR R. ASSHETON CROSSsaid, that before the Attorney General addressed the Committee he should like to put a question upon this matter, because it was understood the last time the subject was brought before the Committee the Attorney General said that it was met by provisions already in the Bill in Clause 9, page 6, line 30. He wanted it made perfectly clear whether or not separate quarters such as those referred to in the Amendment of his noble Friend really, as a matter of fact, came within the term of a dwelling-house. He was not at all prepared to say that they did. He took it for granted, from what had fallen from the Attorney General, that it was the intention of the Government to allow persons in this position to vote, and if that were so it ought to be made perfectly clear by the insertion of distinct words. He confessed that considerable doubt existed in his own mind; but he had no doubt that some of his hon. and learned Friends would address the Committee before the debate closed, and settle the doubt whether, as a

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    matter of fact, a non-commissioned officer occupying separate quarters would be entitled to vote or not. It was quite clear that the words of the clause— namely, "separate quarters in any building" that might be held by a man serving in Her Majesty's sea and land forces, would come within the terms of a dwelling-house in Clause 9.
    SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOTsaid, he hoped that the case of these non-commissioned officers and men would be seriously considered by Her Majesty's Government; because he thought it would not be denied that they were very capable citizens, and certainly deserved to have a vote if a vote could possibly be given to them. There were few officers and non-commissioned officers who occupied the same quarters for more than a year, and it was owing to their being moved about; but in the case of the Marines and permanent sergeants and others, the same quarters were occupied for a considerable time, and he had no doubt in the world that the persons by whom they were occupied were entitled to have a vote. He, therefore, desired to have it clearly laid down whether an officer, living in a barrack-room entirely to himself, was not entitled to have a vote; and also whether a married sergeant or a married private, who had an independent room or rooms, was not equally entitled, supposing he occupied such rooms for a sufficient length of time to give him the right to a vote? He had received many letters on the subject from persons whom he certainly thought were left out in the cold. The Government were now going to enfranchise 2,000,000 of men; and certainly a class of men like those, who rendered valuable service to the country, deserved serious consideration at the hands of the Government.
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES)said, he hoped that, when the matter was fully understood, the noble Lord would not feel justified in pressing his new clause, because he thought the Committee would see that it was impossible for the Government to accept it. They were all agreed as to the object of it, and they were willing that officers, non-commissioned officers, and soldiers should be in the same position as all the rest of Her Majesty's subjects. But it could not be claimed that officers and non-commissioned officers
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    should have greater advantages and more rights than other people, and the Government did not want them to have less. The only reason why they had not previously had a right to vote was that rating was essential, and Crown property was not rated. They had now got rid of that difficulty by inserting in the 9th clause, on page 6, line 30, the following words:—
    "In any part of the United Kingdom, where a man inhabits a dwelling-house in respect of which no person is rated by reason of such, dwelling-house belonging to or being occupied on behalf of the Crown, or by reason of any other ground of exemption, such person shall not be disentitled to be registered as a voter, &c."
    Thus, although Crown property was not actually rated, it would be treated for this purpose as if it were; and, therefore, there would be no disqualification, either against the person or in respect of the building. If the matter were left as it was, men in Her Majesty's Service, under the general law, would be in the same position as ordinary civilians. But if they went further by accepting the present Amendment, soldiers and sailors would have certain privileges extended to them, and would be put in a different and better position than the rest of the community, which the Government did not desire to do. The Amendment of the noble Lord said—
    "Any man serving in Her Majesty's sea and land forces, and occupying separate quarters in any building belonging to or being occupied on behalf of the Crown, shall be deemed, for the purposes of this Act and of the Representation of the People Acts, to be an inhabitant occupier of such building as a tenant."
    The noble Lord asked for a definition of the term "dwelling-house;" but his (the Attorney General's) reply was that he could not give a definition. But, although there was no exact definition of the term "dwelling house," the term "separate quarters" was absolutely unknown. Did it cover the case of an officer and servant, the latter of whom, having a separate bed-room, would have separate quarters in that sense? If so, the clause would give a vote to every man in that position, as well as to the officer. But he did not apprehend that the noble Lord wished to give to men in Her Majesty's Service greater privileges than were given to ordinary civilians. If the clause meant more the Government ob-

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    jected to it, and if it meant less the noble Lord did not want it. He contended that the case was provided for under the Bill already, and that it would be unsafe to give a specific definition to the term "dwelling-house." It had been held by some persons to mean any place where men might dwell; but it had been differently construed under different circumstances. Not only might it be a separate building, but it might be part of a building. In the Representation of the People Act of 1867, it was laid down that the term "dwelling-house" should include any part of a house where that part was separately occupied. A barrack-room would probably come within that definition, if the occupant had separate control, and in that case he would be entitled to vote. A noncommissioned officer might have, for the purposes of his family, part of a common building apportioned to him, into which no one else would have a right to enter as against his occupation. If he had separate control over it, so that it could not be commonly occupied by any other person, it would be part of a dwelling-house, qualifying the occupant for a vote, and it would be much safer to leave the matter in that condition than to accept the term "separate quarters," which might mean, in military phraseology, a man occupying a bed-room or one room. As a matter of fact, he did not know what it meant, and he thought it would be most unwise to accept the term "separate quarters" in the Amendment of the noble Lord. It would be far better to leave soldiers and sailors in the same position as civilians, which was really the intention of the Government.
    MR. GIBSONsaid, the Attorney General had spoken with great clearness and fairness upon the matter; and he could not help thinking that the question itself was involved in considerable doubt. He wished that the attention of the Committee had been drawn to it when the original clause was in Committee. It now appeared that if their attention had been drawn to the particular paragraph of the Bill on which the Attorney General relied, with reference to this point, it might have been discussed with advantage, instead of coming upon the Committee now by surprise. It now appeared, according to the statement of the Attorney Gene-
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    ral, that that clause was framed with the very intention of including the classes aimed at in the Amendment of his noble Friend. Of course, he accepted at once the statement of the Attorney General that the clause was drafted with the intention of including the soldiers and sailors who were included in the Amendment of his noble Friend; but the question was whether the drafting of the Government in that particular paragraph was so clear that they could with safety leave the matter there without seeking, by a supplementary clause or by some Amendment on the Report, to make the matter more clear? This was obviously a most important and interesting question, and it might affect a considerable number of Her Majesty's subjects. Whether the number was large or small, Her Majesty's Government, when they framed the clause for the purpose of including soldiers and sailors, must have made some estimate as to how many were likely to be affected by it. They must have known how many soldiers and sailors would be likely to occupy this class of building, and, as they framed the clause with the express intention of including them, they must have formed some estimate of the number. He should be glad to know what that estimate was. He had read the paragraph in Clause 9 referred to by the Attorney General, and he would at once admit that it did take away the necessity for the rates being paid, and the house being rated. That difficulty was removed, and in future no man occupying Government property could be prevented from placing himself on the Register in consequence of the property not being rated. He thought his hon. Friend behind him had indicated a point in which greater clearness was desirable, and that was whether the words "dwelling-house" were sufficiently full and elastic to include barracks and quarters in the occupation of soldiers and sailors. It was not clear that that was so, and the matter would be left in great doubt if it were allowed to stand as it did. He granted that the Attorney General had pointed out that the term "separate quarters" was open to criticism, and that it was a term that had not hitherto found its way into any Reform Act. He admitted that it was a term that had not hitherto been explained or used; but he thought, also,

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    that the term "dwelling-house" was not a satisfactory term under which to include so many different classes as those which were intended to be grasped in the paragraph relied upon by the Attorney General. On the whole, he was disposed to think that the wisest course to take would be this. If his noble Friend, after having listened to the discussion, could see his way to the framing of an Amendment to this particular clause which would meet the objection of the Attorney General, it would be desirable to do so; and, if not, then it would be better to withdraw the clause, and consider the whole matter on the Report. The sole object was to prevent soldiers and sailors who occupied separate quarters, in the way indicated in the clause, from being disfranchised in the event of the Revising Barrister deciding that such separate barracks or quarters were not covered by the term "dwelling-house."
    SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFFsaid, it seemed to him, although there might be a vagueness in the proposal of his noble Friend, that it was absolutely necessary there should be a distinct statement in the Bill that soldiers, sailors, and the Royal Marines would be entitled to have the franchise in respect of premises for which they would, undoubtedly, have a vote if they were civilians. There were many Royal Marines and men of the Royal Marine Artillery who lived at Portsmouth, and he was afraid it would be only those who lived in a separate tenement who would have the franchise conferred upon them. He trusted that the hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General would give some assurance upon the point, in order to encourage the noble Lord to frame an Amendment that would settle the question.
    MR. CAUSTONasked if it would be the fact that, in the event of a regiment being stationed in a garrison town for a sufficient length of time, the whole of the regiment would be placed, under this clause, upon the Register of Voters? He would ask this question in order that the matter might be clearly explained. Was it the intention of the clause to enfranchise whole regiments? A considerable amount of ignorance appeared to prevail upon the question; but he imagined that, under the clause as it stood, an entire regiment would be
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    enfranchised, provided that it had been quartered in a borough for two years.
    SIR EARDLEY WILMOTsuggested that the words "or public building" should be added to Clause 9, after the word "dwelling-house." He thought that would meet the difficulty.
    MR. WARTONwished to remind the Committee that at a quarter to 7 on Friday afternoon, five minutes before the debate on the Bill must necessarily have ceased, the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill requested the noble Lord not to bring forward this Amendment. He thought that if the noble Lord had acceded to the request he would have established a very bad precedent indeed; and it was undignified on the part of the Government to endeavour to hurry through an important measure of this kind in that manner. Although he had the highest opinion of the Attorney General, he was not disposed to accept the ipse dixit of the hon. and learned Gentleman on all occasions, especially where a matter was doubtful. But although he did not always believe in the learned Attorney General, he always implicitly took the hon. and learned Gentleman's word, and he had no doubt that soldiers and sailors were present in the mind of the Attorney General when the 9th clause was drawn up. It was a great pity, however, that it was not so expressed. If his recollection were accurate, Clause 9 was passed with considerable rapidity, and not a single word was said in regard to the paragraph in line 30 in which the words "dwelling-house" were inserted. Not one word was there about soldiers and sailors, and they were now only left to the opinion of a few hon. Members that soldiers and sailors were intended, although they might not have been expressed. He did not think that that was the proper mode of interpreting the clause, and he should like to have everything clearly done in black and white. What he wanted to call attention to now was the statement of the Attorney General, that he did not wish to treat soldiers and sailors worse than civilians. He was glad to hear that announcement, and for this reason, that soldiers and sailors were not exactly in the same position as civilians. They were ordered on service from one place to another, and very often they only remained in a particular place for a very short time. He would suggest,

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    therefore, that the Attorney General should make an exception in favour of soldiers and sailors by reducing the time necessary to obtain a voting qualification. At present an officer who had not occupied a separate dwelling for the whole of the year would lose his qualification, and would not be allowed, for instance, to vote for quarters at Windsor because he happened to have been moved to some other place, and it would be necessary for him to occupy his separate quarters for two years or so before he could acquire a qualification. If the Attorney General was sincere in his wish to treat soldiers and sailors with the same justice as civilians he should take these facts into consideration, and bear in mind the actual position in which soldiers and sailors were placed, whether officers or privates. They were not like other people, but were moved about from place, and therefore had not the same opportunities for acquiring a residential qualification. Therefore, the assertion that provision was already made for them was only giving "a promise to the ear, and breaking it to the hope." He would ask the hon. and learned Gentleman whether some clause might not be introduced allowing a shorter residence for soldiers and sailors in order to give them the voting qualification? They must have a residence somewhere, and a qualification might be given to them by making a residence in barracks for a shorter period all that was necessary.
    MR. LEWISsaid, he must deny that the idea the Attorney General wished to convey was covered by the paragraph referred to in Clause 9. The provision in Clause 9 was simply to prevent the voter from being disqualified by reason of his not being rated. The qualification was incidental, and the clause certainly did away with any difficulty in regard to the house not being rated. It enabled the Revising Barrister to say that this provision in Clause 9 did away with any difficulty in respect of the non-rating of Government buildings; but it could not be taken to constitute an enfranchisement of any class of persons connected with the Naval or Military Services of Her Majesty. As to the appeal of the hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. Causton) opposite to know whether it would be possible to enfranchise a regiment of soldiers under the clause, he hoped that
    598
    the Committee might hear an answer to that question from the Government.
    EARL PERCYsaid, that a great deal more had been imputed to the clause than he had intended. There certainly was no ground for the supposition of the hon. Member for Colchester, that the whole of a regiment as well as the officers were to be enfranchised by this clause. He could assure the Committee that that was not the intention of his Amendment, and he certainly did not understand it to be the object of the Bill. As he had said before, he would be very glad to make any alteration in the phraseology of the clause which the Attorney General might, from a legal point of view, consider necessary. If the words "separate quarters" were not a term known to the law he was ready to defer to any suggestion the Attorney General might make. The hon. and learned Gentleman himself admitted the difficulty of defining what a separate dwelling was, and had told the Committee that in one Act of Parliament the definition of a separate dwelling was that it was a dwelling which no one but the occupier had a legal right to enter. In that sense it would be very difficult to say that there were any separate dwellings in barracks, because officers and others had certainly a right to enter all separate quarters and barracks. He should be glad if the Attorney General would enlighten the Committee upon that point, and also upon the point which had been raised by the hon. Member for Colchester. He was quite ready to withdraw the clause now and bring it up at a later stage if the hon. and learned Gentleman would tell him any words that he was willing to accept.
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES)said, he was of opinion that soldiers forming the mass of a regiment would not come in under the Amendment, because they had no such separate quarters as would entitle them to a vote. They all lived together, and he did not think that any difficulty existed in that direction. As to the suggestion of the hon. Member for Londonderry (Mr. Lewis) that this legislation was not sufficient because it did not enfranchise a class, all he had to say was that the class was not disfranchised now, and never had been. The reason why they did not vote was simply because they occupied property

    599
    which, was not rated, and it required legislation to get rid of the disqualification which affected non-rated property by placing it in the some condition as other property. The noble Lord asked him to get rid of a difficulty created by the clause. The noble Lord thought that part of a barracks might be held to be part of a dwelling-house, and place the persons occupying it in the same condition as the occupants of ordinary dwelling-houses who were entitled to a vote. The object of the Government was to put them in that position; but they did not think in regard to these services that the men connected with them should have any further privileges than those enjoyed by ordinary civilians. If the noble Lord asked him to say what might occur in a particular case where no definition was given he was afraid he could not help him out of that difficulty. All that the Government proposed to do was to give soldiers and sailors equal rights in regard to voting power with civilians, but no greater.
    SIR R. ASSHETON CROSSsaid, he hoped that the Attorney General would consider the question before the Report. It was quite true that an officer occupying separate quarters would escape the penalty of disqualification in regard to the non-rating part of the question by the 9th clause; but what was really behind the question was whether the officer occupying these quarters according to military law was entitled to be placed upon the Register, seeing that he was an occupant only in one sense and not in another. What the noble Lord said was quite true—military men did not occupy these premises like an ordinary householder—that was to say, that nobody could legally enter them except themselves. They occupied them as the officers of a regiment, subject to certain regulations which gave to other persons the right of going through them. The question was whether that was a qualification in regard to occupation which did not put them in a different category from the ordinary tenant of a dwelling-house. He wanted the question to be made quite clear, so that an officer might not find himself disqualified because the Revising Barrister might not consider the words in the Bill gave a vote to an officer in respect of a dwelling in barracks on the ground that he did not occupy it separately.
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES)wished to point out that the proposed clause must be read in connection with Clause 3, which provided that where a man inhabited a dwelling-house in virtue of any office, service, or employment the vote should not be invalidated. It was suggested by the right hon. Gentleman that as other persona might have a right to enter for a particular purpose it would not be a separate occupation. Now, he was not of that opinion. He did not think that the right to walk into a man's room at certain times for the purpose of inspection or anything else would disqualify a voter. If a right existed on the part of the Crown to enter an officer's room he did not for a moment suppose that that would be a disqualification. What he meant was that there should be separate occupation by separate people, and not a common occupation, and the right of a man to say to any other person—"You cannot come here because I hold dominion over that room." Bank directors might reserve the right to enter their manager's room; but that would not prevent the manager from giving a vote under the service franchise.
    MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, that as the hon. and learned Gentleman had promised to give the subject his consideration, he hoped he would not confine that consideration to the very limited portion of the subject with which he had just dealt. The hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. Causton) had thrown out a suggestion that under the clause, as proposed, a whole regiment might find themselves in possession of the franchise. To this the Attorney General replied that the Government had no intention of enfranchising soldiers as a class, but that he simply wished to place those serving Her Majesty in her land and sea forces in the same position as any other subject of the Queen. It did not appear to have occurred to the hon. and learned Gentleman that that might have been a fair argument in the days when the franchise was restricted to persons possessing a considerable stake in the country; but when practically the class from which the whole regiment, to use the expression of the hon. Member for Colchester, was drawn—that was to say, that when the franchise was exercised and enjoyed by the very class of Her Majesty's subjects from which the whole

    601
    regiment was drawn—it was perfectly comprehensible that soldiers would, under ordinary circumstances, enjoy their Constitutional rights but for the fact that they were serving Her Majesty. The hon. and learned Gentleman did not appear to recollect that, owing to the exigencies of the Public Service, and under the conditions in which the land and sea forces of Her Majesty were placed, they were precluded from exercising the rights which they undoubtedly would enjoy if it were not for the accident of their being engaged in the service of Her Majesty. In other words, a class of men who, under ordinary circumstances, would enjoy the rights of citizenship, would forfeit those rights from the accident of being engaged in the service of Her Majesty in her land and sea forces. He would not go the length of the hon. Member for Colchester in saying that the entire regiment would be entitled to give their votes in the same way as in Prance, and, perhaps, in some other countries. He regarded that notion as absurd; but he would suggest to the hon. and learned Gentleman whether, considering the peculiar position occupied by Her Majesty's land and sea forces, he would provide that, as the franchise in England was at present enjoyed, to say nothing of the attempt now being made to introduce a very much larger number of persons upon the Register, that the land and sea forces should not be placed in a position of peculiar disadvantage and disqualification. He did not suppose that those who were responsible for the discipline of the Service would undertake to say that any injury would accrue from soldiers and sailors being permitted, under proper conditions, to exercise their Constitutional rights. He did not suppose that that argument would be advanced before the Committee; but he hoped that the hon. and learned Gentleman would interpret the law in a sense favourable to Her Majesty's land and sea forces, because we ought to bear in mind that when we called upon Her Majesty's subjects to engage in the service of the Crown, we ought, as far as possible, to remove from them every stigma and disqualification which it was in our power to remove. As matters now stood, persons serving in the land and sea forces of the Queen were the only persons the right hon. Gentleman
    602
    the Prime Minister did not allow to be capable citizens. He hoped before the Report was brought up that the hon. and learned Gentleman would be able to place a clause upon the Paper which would enable the House to see for themselves how he proposed to meet the difficulty.
    MR. TOMLINSONsaid, he had heard, with great satisfaction, the statement of the hon. and learned Attorney General that he intended to put the land and sea forces on the same footing as civilians with regard to the franchise. He thought it was a very serious matter that that was not already so; and he hoped it really was intended that persons who were serving the country in this way should have the privilege of voting on the same conditions as other people, and that proper provisions would be introduced into the Bill having reference to the conditions of their service. Of course, the question of residence was a very difficult one in the case of this class of voters; and he would suggest that the proper mode of dealing with that incident in the qualification of the land and sea forces would be by substituting an incoming regiment for the one whose place it had taken; so that when a regiment was removed from a barracks, and another regiment placed in it, the officers occupying the place of those removed should be entitled to vote. In that way, an officer, for instance, removed from Windsor would not lose his vote when quartered elsewhere, and vice versê;—those who were removed to Windsor would also retain their votes. He thought that something in that direction might be devised for getting rid of the difficulty. As the case now stood, a Minister for War, having strong political tendencies, might find that in a particular borough the presence of a regiment of soldiers might have the effect of altering the balance of political Parties in that borough, and he might bring about a sudden removal of the regiment with the sole object of disqualifying the members of the Service from voting. He thought it was a matter of satisfaction that the question had not been disposed of in the hurried manner some hon. Members appeared to have desired on Friday night; and he trusted that some provision would be introduced into the clause to enable members of Her Majesty's forces to

    603
    exercise the right of voting by getting rid of any disqualification which might exist from the nature of the service which they had to perform.
    MR. GIBSONsaid, he was satisfied now, after the last statement of the Attorney General, that the Bill could not be allowed to pass the House without some understanding upon this point. The way in which the matter now stood was this—he had followed the statement of the Attorney General all through, and the hon. and learned Gentlemen said it was not necessary to accept the Amendment proposed by the noble Lord, because it was covered by the paragraph of Clause 9, which had been referred to. In other words, that the separate portion of a house might be regarded, within the meaning of the Act for the Representation of the People, to constitute a dwelling-house, and that the separate quarters occupied in a barracks might be held to be occupied separately by officers and non-commissioned officers. That was the reasoning they were at first following in the reply of the Attorney General to his noble Friend, and to that reasoning he had naturally applied his mind. It was then pointed out, as the discussion went on, that the principle by which they were to be guided with regard to the meaning of a separate dwelling-house was that that separate part of the house was the man's castle if he occupied it, that he had absolute dominion over it, and that no one could enter it without his sanction. The principle laid down, so far as he was able to interpret it, was that the man who occupied separate quarters was practically lord of his own dwelling-house, had full control over it, and that it was, in fact, his castle. But that could not be applied to soldiers and sailors, because they were subject to a certain amount of interference and supervision, and there was a right of ingress on the part of others which civilians were not subject to. In the next place, the hon. and learned Attorney General, in answer to the noble lord who moved the clause, said that, whatever the amount of interference might be, it was covered by a reference to Section 3, which was the service section of the Bill. That introduced an entirely different element. Up to that time the Committee had been led to believe that under Section 9 was to be found the
    604
    rights of the soldier. Now they were told it was to be found somewhere or other between Sections 8 and 9. He did not think that that was at all satisfactory. He did not presume to say absolutely that what the Attorney General said in reference to the last paragraph of Clause 9 might not be construed as being its meaning; but he should be sorry to have any right he was relying upon personally so obscure that it had to be eked out by reference to some other section his attention had not previously been drawn to. If the present clause were read a second time he had no doubt that some Amendment could be suggested that would make the meaning clearer, or if the clause was withdrawn, no doubt, on the Report stage, some words might be introduced in connection with the words "barracks and quarters" to show the Revising Barrister that soldiers and sailors were in the express contemplation of the Legislature when the provision was passed.
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES)said, the argument of the right hon. and learned Gentleman went far beyond the claim of the noble Lord, who had never claimed to put the position of soldiers and sailors beyond that of the Service Clause. He was bound, therefore, to refer to the Service Clause—the noble Lord having said that the qualification come under Clause 9. He, on the contrary, called attention to the fact that it came under Clause 3. The right hon. and learned Gentleman said that he had changed his ground.
    MR. GIBSONsaid, he had accused the hon. and learned Gentleman not exactly of having changed his ground, but of having enlarged it.
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES)said, that if he had added to his ground to the extent of changing it he did not see what the difference was. It was the desire of the Government to put these men in the same position as civilians who were rated for a separate dwelling. It had been hitherto necessary that all civilians, before they could possess the right of voting, should be rated. The Government wished in the Service Clause to provide that that should not be necessary in all cases; but that a gamekeeper, for instance, or a coachman, who had control over a house for his own purposes, should be entitled

    605
    to a vote. The noble Lord the Member for North Northumberland (Earl Percy) wished to put soldiers and sailors in the same position; but the noble Lord added that other persons might have the power of entering every portion of a barracks, and the noble Lord raised a question whether the access which their military superiors might have to their dwellings would invalidate the right to the vote. In this respect the masters of gamekeepers and coachmen might in one sense be said have a right to enter the premises their servants occupied, for the purpose of calling them up or saying that their services were required; but that fact would not deprive the man of the vote. It was exactly the same thing here. All he had been trying to do was to endeavour to make out that if it was practicable for a civilian who occupied a separate part of a dwelling-house to be entitled to vote, in the same way a sergeant or non-commissioned officer would be entitled to vote if the quarters he occupied were occupied in such a manner as to entitle him to keep other persons out of his part of the dwelling. The fact that his superior officers might have the right to come in and see that the Regulations of the Service were obeyed would not disqualify him, or take away his right to vote. He should be glad to consider the matter further; but he could not accept the present clause. All he said was, that he could not put these persons in a better position than civilians; but it was his desire to place them in the same position.
    COLONEL MILNE-HOMEremarked that before the Amendment was disposed of, he hoped to have an assurance from the hon. and learned Gentleman that a clause would be brought up on the Report insuring to every sergeant, soldier, and sailor, as described in the Amendment, a vote. It was impossible that these men could be looked upon in the light of civilians, inasmuch as they did not possess the separate residences which civilians ordinarily possessed. Nor could they be looked upon as being in the position of game-keepers, coachmen, gardeners, and similar persons engaged by the year and remaining constantly in one place, if they happened to render good service. The soldiers of the Crown, as everyone knew, were moved from barrack to barrack. Therefore residences must be left out of the question
    606
    altogether. The Prime Minister told them, when he brought in the Bill, that he had introduced the Service Clause in order to enfranchise, if possible, many men possessing the qualification of education as well as household residence. He contended that the sergeants and non-commissioned officers in the Army were in the same position, and that all of them possessed educational acquirements which fitted them for the enjoyment of the franchise. Then, why was not the right hon. Gentleman willing to go further and extend the principle of educational franchise to soldiers and sailors? He (Colonel Milne-Home) contended that every soldier in the Army was as entitled to the franchise as the persons the Government were enfranchising by this Bill, if not more so. Everyone who was connected with either Service knew to what a high pitch of education soldiers and sailors had now reached. The noble Lord at the head of the War Office had very properly laid down that soldiers and sailors were entitled to enjoy their political predilections as well as any other citizens, and he was sure the Army thanked the noble Lord for that candid admission. It seemed to him that there ought to be no sort of difficulty in enfranchising every soldier and sailor of a year's service. ["Hear, hear!"] He was glad to hear that cheer from below the Gangway. He was sure, from the experience he had gained of our soldiers, that they were as entitled as many now on the Register to enjoy the right of voting—if, indeed, they were not even more entitled. He had therefore heard with satisfaction the proposal of the noble Lord the Member for North Northumberland (Earl Percy); and if the noble Lord went to a Division he would vote with him. He would prefer, however, to have a complete assurance from the Government that soldiers would be enfranchised under the Bill. At present the matter was in considerable doubt. Lawyers, like doctors, occasionally differed; and it was, therefore, desirable to have a complete assurance from the Government that this was their intention, and that if the Bill, as it stood, did not accomplish the desired object, it would be amended in that direction.
    LORD EUSTACE CECILsaid, he had listened to the debate with great atten-

    607
    tion, and the point for consideration was whether soldiers and sailors, under the Bill, would be damnified or not in the exercise of their rights and privileges. Nobody in that House wished that any rights or privileges should be given to soldiers and sailors that were not possessed by the rest of the community; but, at the same time, after listening to the Attorney General, it seemed to him doubtful whether, in the mind of the hon. and learned Gentleman, the Bill really gave those rights and privileges to soldiers and sailors which they were entitled to expect. The hon. and learned Gentleman said that was his opinion; but with every respect for the opinion of the hon. and learned Gentleman—and no man was more qualified to express an opinion—there certainly did appear to exist a certain amount of ambiguity in the matter, and therefore it was desirable to provide that certain words should be inserted in the Bill, by which it should be made clear that soldiers and sailors were not to be in a worse position than other persons. No doubt it would be necessary to maintain military discipline, and there was on wish that soldiers and sailors should be called upon to do that which the discipline of those Services did not admit of. At the same time, if they were to exercise the privileges of the rest of the community, it was clear that certain laws and regulations, which were in force in barracks, might be used against them, and it might be necessary to have the case decided in a Court of Law—as, for instance, whether a soldier, confined to barracks or confined to his own room, could be said to have the right of ingress and egress. He did not know how far that might or might not be held to be an objection by the Revising Barrister. It was a question for the hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General and for lawyers to decide. He was quite ready to allow that when they came to admit soldiers and sailors, tinder these circumstances, to the privilege of the franchise, a great many anomalies would arise; but in any extension of the franchise that was proposed, a vast number of anomalies must arise, and in listening to the remarks of his right hon. Friend the Member for North Lincolnshire (Mr. J. Lowther), it certainly seemed to him that the difficulties, which his right hon. Friend and
    608
    other speakers had discovered in regard to the question, led directly to manhood suffrage. It was perfectly clear that, in regard to soldiers abroad, and in France especially, manhood suffrage existed, or otherwise it would be extremely difficult to confer upon them the right of voting. Considering the difference in the position of civilians and that of soldiers and sailors, difficulties of this kind, and constant trouble must arise, and nobody would be satisfied until the whole question was brought into a Court of Law, and a decision obtained from the Judges. He believed this was a very important point. He entertained no doubt that the Attorney General was himself anxious to do what was right and just in the matter; but he really did not see, unless the hon. and learned Gentleman gave the Committee an assurance that he would bring up a clause himself, or that he would consider the matter more closely and intimately than he had already done, that the House would be satisfied with his expression of the law and nothing more. He said this with every desire not to prolong the proceedings of the Committee; but he thought that members of these Services, and especially of the Military Service, in which he had always taken the greatest interest, should certainly not be deprived of any portion of the rights they were entitled to enjoy. After the course the debate had taken they ought to feel that their rights and privileges had just as much weight with the Treasury Bench as they had with the rest of the House. He felt that the assurance and the kind indication given by the Attorney General, that he would carefully consider the matter with the noble Lord before the Report stage of the Bill, in order to render it unnecessary to appeal to a Court of Law for a decision, would be hailed with the greatest satisfaction.
    MR. WARTONsaid, he did not think that the Committee had, as yet, come to a clear understanding as to the course which the Attorney General intended to persue, and it was not desirable to leave the matter undecided. Some of them might and some of them might not give the Government credit for a desire to bring forward a satisfactory clause; but it seemed to him that the Attorney General was of the same opinion as that

    609
    which he had originally expressed, and he had certainly quite as much confidence in the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Gibson) as he had in the Attorney General. On Friday last an endeavour was made to dispose of the question in a few minutes before the time for discontinuing the debate at 10 minutes to 7, on the ground that it was settled by a paragraph in Clause 9. Not a word was then said about Clause 3. Now, however, the Attorney General said that Clause 3 had something to do with it. The Committee had themselves heard what the hon. and learned Gentleman said. It was perfectly true that the Attorney General had entirely changed his ground; and the real fact of the matter was that, at the present moment, the Committee did not know what the Attorney General meant at all. That was his (Mr. Warton's) justification for offering a few remarks now. He thought no answer had been given by the hon. and learned Gentleman to the observations of the hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Tomlinson), or to those of the late Home Secretary (Sir R. Assheton Cross). The hon. and learned Gentleman appeared to be anxious to place soldiers and sailors on a footing of equality with the rest of Her Majesty's subjects; but he gave the go-by altogether to an essential point which had been submitted to his consideration—namely, whether soldiers and sailors, by the very conditions of their service, were not in an inferior position to the rest of the community in regard to residence. That was a point he would ask the hon. and learned Gentleman to consider. He thought it was just as well that in dealing with soldiers and sailors there should be words introduced into the Bill which were appropriate to soldiers and sailors, and the words "separate quarters" he thought were appropriate, because they were suitable to both branches of Her Majesty's Service; and, in the next place, they drew a distinction between a dwelling-house and separate quarters. Whatever the hon. and learned Attorney General might say, it was perfectly obvious that the dominion which a subject of Her Majesty had over a dwelling-house, subject only to his paying his rent to the landlord, was very different from the right a soldier had in his separate quarters. He thought if
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    the Prime Minister could have supported the contention of the learned Attorney General he would have done so; but as the right hon. Gentleman had remained silent, he took it for granted that he was unable to do so. They all knew perfectly well that by the conditions of the Service a soldier's occupancy of separate quarters was in a very different position from that of a citizen who occupied a house which was entirely within his own dominion. He wanted to know from the Attorney General, before the Committee parted from the subject, whether he was of the same opinion now as he was before, that this case was met and provided for by the 9th clause, or did he intend to bring forward some Amendment which would do equal justice as between soldiers and sailors and ordinary citizens?
    EARL PERCYsaid, he should ask the leave of the Committee to withdraw the Amendment in consequence of what had been said by the hon. and learned Attorney General. He did hope, however, that the point which had been raised would not be dropped by Her Majesty's Government. There was one remark he felt called upon to make in consequence of what had fallen from the Attorney General. The hon. and learned Gentleman had compared the right of a master to enter the house of his game-keeper or coachman with the right of an officer to enter the quarters of a non-commissioned officer; and the hon. and learned Gentleman said that as that right in the first case would not deprive the coachman or game-keeper of his vote, so, in the other, it would not invalidate the vote of the non-commissioned officer. But the right of the master to enter into his servant's house was merely a right to enter it for the ordinary purpose of looking after the dwelling, or after the men he employed. It was not the same right as that of an officer who was bound daily to inspect the separate quarters of the non-commissioned officers stationed in barracks. In the one case, the master was not responsible for the conduct of his servant in the dwelling-house; whereas, in the other case, the officer was responsible for the conduct of the non-commissioned officer and his family. He should like to be assured that that difference would not be held by the Registration Courts

    611
    to deprive a non-commissioned officer from the exercise of the franchise.
    Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
    MR. THOMAS COLLINS, in moving the following clause:—
    (Votes in case of constituencies returning two Members.)
    "From and after the passing of this Act, in every constituency returning two Members to Parliament, every elector thereof shall be entitled to give a single vote for one candidate, and for no more,"
    said, he hoped the Prime Minister would be able to accept the clause, because he did not think that it would weight the Bill very much, or be likely to impede its progress in "another place." He certainly thought he ought to have the support of hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway who had spoken in the Provinces in favour of the principle of one man one vote. His proposition was that in all constituencies where there were two Members each voter should be restricted to one vote. He very much objected to the entire system of the double vote, and they were not considering as much as they ought the effect which a redistribution of seats would have. Whenever that Bill was passed, there would probably be very few places returning two Members, and he hoped they would come to a system of one vote for one man, or else three votes for three men. What was the system of the double vote? It simply accentuated the influence of a dominant majority. This system of double voting did not apply practically to Scotland and Wales. In Scotland the only seats having two Members were Dundee and Edinburgh, and in Wales the only town was Merthyr. Therefore, practically speaking, Scotland and Wales ought to be left out of his purview in considering this question. In Ireland there were 32 county constituencies and three boroughs which returned two Members each; but, in illustrating the question, he should confine his remarks solely to England. He found that in England there were 75 divisions of counties which returned two Members each, and out of those 75 divisions 64 returned— he was not now considering bye-elections—128 Members of the same politics, and there were only 11 which were what in the North of England were called piebald — returning one yellow
    612
    and one blue. Therefore, they had in the county constituencies 64 Members returned by the pure vote of a dominant majority. He contended that that was an unfair system of voting. It was quite right that each of those 64 constituencies should return one Member representing the majority; but he could not see why the minority in those 64 constituencies should be unable to return a single Member representing their opinions. In this way, double voting accentuated the opinion of the dominant majority. In the boroughs the case was not so bad. There were 56 borough constituencies returning 112 men of the politics of the dominant majorities, and only 15 which were piebald. These were chiefly small places like Warwick and Weymouth, which a future Parliament would probably reduce to one Member a-piece. Therefore, they had as a fact that, practically speaking, in all the larger constituencies, except under exceptional circumstances, the dominant political Party enjoyed a double representation. The late Lord Boaconsfield said the origin of a system of dual voting of this kind, which allowed the boroughs to return two Representatives, was that, when the Members went to London, they might not be waylaid by highwaymen, and that they might return safe together. If that was really the reason, it did not apply now, and there was no danger that any person representing a single seat would not be as safe as the Members for Scotland and Ireland, who were situated at the extremities of the Kingdom, and had to come up singly by themselves, without being accompanied by a Colleague. When the Reform Bill of 1832 proposed to add a third Member to the counties, Mr. Mackworth Praed, who was at that time a distinguished Member of the House, objected to the proposal on the ground that it would increase the dominant power of the seven counties to which it was proposed to give an additional Member; whereupon Lord Al-thorp said that the House ought not to be afraid upon that ground, because no county constituencies would ever return two Members of the same politics. Any person who would study this subject by perusing the volumes of Vacher would find that that was now merely a lingering tradition, growing out of date. There were no counties, he believed, or di-

    613
    visions of counties, except North Lincolnshire and the North Biding of Yorkshire, which at the last General Election had returned one and one. He was quite aware that the adoption of his proposal would, in a majority of cases, place the majority and the minority on the same footing. He could not say that that was altogether desirable, and he thought that a single Representative for a single constituency would be still better. Most of the cities returning three Members, such as Leeds, Manchester, and Liverpool, were driven to dual representation; but, if driven into a comer, he contended that of two evils it was the less that the minority should have one Member and a majority one, than that the majority should have two. But what was wanted was a system such as that proposed for the old three-cornered vote. On these grounds he begged to move the clause of which he had given Notice.
    New Clause (Votes in case of constituencies returning two Members,)—(Mr. Thomas Collins.)—brought up, and read the first time.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."
    MR. GLADSTONE: The Government cannot accept this clause, because it is an attempt to introduce a perfectly novel and very objectionable mode of voting for the sake of remedying what the hon. Member pleases to call an essential defect in our present Parliamentary system, which, for the most part, depends on dual representation. The hon. Gentleman has said very truly that the whole question of whether we ought to be represented by three, two, or only by a single Member, or in any other way, is a very large question, which ought to be considered in a more regular manner. Therefore, it would be a great mistake, on the hon. Member's own showing, for the House to attempt to cobble, if I may so say, and patch up the system of dual representation, with regard to which we do not yet know what the judgment of the House may be. Of course, the hon. Gentleman is aware that he is proposing to deal with what is really a very small part of the question of redistribution in this measure, which is a Franchise Bill. We should be doing positive mischief if we were to attempt to anticipate that
    614
    measure of redistribution by a partial and a single portion of the subject, which must be brought before us in a much larger form than it could be in the proposition of the hon. Gentleman. I cannot see for myself how, from any point of view, this clause could be accepted. It involves an innovation which would be received with astonishment, and the discontent it would excite would be so universal that it could never be carried out. I must say that it would require a great deal of argument to convince me that in a constituency having a voting power of 1,500, 501 should be able to elect a Member for themselves.
    MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, that, although he was not prepared to go the full length of his hon. Friend, he thought the answer of the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister would have been far more satisfactory if it had contained some indication that the Government were prepared seriously to consider that most important question of minority representation, which lay at the bottom of his hon. Friend's clause. The other day the right hon. Gentleman took exception to an Amendment moved in Committee, which had been submitted from a very different standpoint, which dealt with the question of minority representation. He referred to the Amendment of the hon. Member for Glasgow (Dr. Cameron). The right hon. Gentleman met that Amendment by the astonishing assertion that the whole question of the representation of minorities was not a question which ought to be dealt with in any Franchise Bill; but that it ought to be considered in connection with a redistribution of seats. He had never heard a more astounding statement in his life. It was contended by the right hon. Gentleman that the representation of minorities had found its way by accident into the so-called Franchise Clauses of the Reform Act of 1867, and that the Amendment by which it obtained its accidental insertion in that Bill was due to a freak of a clerk of the House of Lords. Now, he (Mr. J. Lowther) asserted that the matter had been carefully weighed in the House of Commons, and that the position it now occupied in the Reform Act of 1867 was due to the initiative of no less a man than the noble and learned Earl who had several times filled the Office of Lord High Chancellor (Earl Cairns),

    615
    and who was undoubtedly capable of discriminating as to the most appropriate portion of a statute any specific provision ought to be placed in. Therefore, he was not speaking without authority, when he asserted that no measure professing to deal with the question of the franchise could be considered in any way perfect unless the views of the Government on the important question of the representation of minorities had been fully laid before Parliament and embodied in the law of the land. His hon. Friend the Member for Knaresborough (Mr. T. Collins) was a reasonable man, and would not probably be disposed to push his views to an illogical extreme. He would, therefore, suggest to his hon. Friend that he should consider some modification of his provision, in order to obviate what he must say was a reasonable objection on the part of the Prime Minister. He did not think that his hon. Friend intended to propose that 501 persons should override the opinion of 1,000. That was going further in the direction of the representation of minorities than any hon. Member would seriously advocate. But they had been told that afternoon that the Government, in regard to another clause, would be prepared to consider it, and he hoped they would take the same course with regard to this question. What he wished to call the attention of the Government to was this. No measure dealing oven with one branch only of the subject—namely, the franchise, which they had selected for special treatment—would deserve serious consideration unless this portion of the subject was also practically dealt with. It was of no use to say that it belonged to the question of redistribution. It did nothing of the kind. Whether there were to be two, three, or four Members, or only one accorded to special constituencies, was not the question, but whether minorities were to be absolutely snuffed out as they were now, or whether some means could not be provided for affording proportional representation to local opinion. That, he ventured to say, was a subject which no ingenuity could dissever from the question of the franchise.
    MR. STUART-WORTLEYsaid, he did not think proportional representation would be best secured by adopting the proposal of the hon. Member for
    616
    Knaresborough (Mr. T. Collins). He wished it to be understood that the proposition now made by his hon. Friend was not made officially on behalf of hon. Members who sat on that side of the House, nor did it accurately represent their views. They had no desire that the power of the electors of the country should be so materially diminished, as it would be if this clause were adopted, and without any palliating circumstances of any kind. There was only one point on which he agreed with his hon. Friend, and that was that the existing system most successfully secured what he might call the misrepresentation of the people.
    SIR JOHN LUBBOCKsaid, he agreed with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for North Lincolnshire (Mr. J. Lowther) in one remark. He did not see why, in Committee upon the present Bill, they might not, with advantage, discuss the large question of proportional representation. Indeed, lie regretted that in deference to the feeling of the House they were confining themselves in the present Bill to the question of the franchise, and that various subjects of much difficulty, as well as importance, had been postponed until the Redistribution Bill. They had now, however, a promise from the Government that the whole question of proportional representation should be fully and fairly considered next Session. His hon. Friend the Member for Knaresborough knew very well that he (Sir John Lubbock) was quite as much in favour of proportional representation as he or any other Member of the House was; but it seemed to him that the present proposal would not secure the proportional representation which he desired. When the hon. Member for Glasgow (Dr. Cameron) brought forward his Amendment to abolish the present minority vote, he (Sir John Lubbock) was unavoidably absent; but he understood it was the general feeling of the House that the subject should be postponed, on the ground that this was not the proper time for discussing it. He would venture to suggest to the hon. Member for Knaresborough that in deference to the view of the House he should take the same course. He quite sympathized with the general spirit of the remarks made by the hon. Member, but not in the particular manner in which he proposed to deal with the subject. More-

    617
    over, he felt that in discussing the question of proportional representation in connection with dual seats, the supporters of proportional representation did so at a disadvantage. The argument in its favour was much stronger as regards constituencies returning three or more Members. The proposition of the hon. Member for Knaresborough, whatever its advantages were, did not give them proportional representation. It was when they came to the great constituencies returning more than two Members that their case he-cams so strong. Under these circumstances, he hoped the hon. Member would rest satisfied with the interesting discussion he had elicited, and would now consent to withdraw his clause, leaving the House to consider the whole question when they came to the Redistribution Bill.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid, he did not rise to support the somewhat crude proposal of his hon. Friend; but he wished to call attention to the inconvenience of the course the Government were pursuing in putting off until next year the discussion of all large and important questions. Next year they must introduce a Redistribution Bill, which must necessarily be of a complicated and difficult character. They were told that it must absolutely pass next year, or otherwise the next Election would take place with a new franchise and the old constituencies. In addition to all the complicated questions which must arise upon that question next year, the Government were putting off a large number of questions which might be discussed this year. He certainly thought that the question of proportional representation and the question of the female franchise might have been discussed this year. [Cries of "Oh!"] Hon. Members objected to that statement; but he wanted to point out that the Government next year would come down and say that this was an important and interesting question, but, in the interests of passing a Redistribution Bill, they must implore hon. Members not to discuss it. If any attempt were made in the Redistribution Bill to raise a discussion upon the representation of minorities, hon. Members would be told by the Government that they were endangering the passing of the Bill, and that it was absolutely necessary to pass
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    the measure as it stood, in order that the new elections might not take place during the existence of the old constituencies with a new franchise.
    MR. RAIKESsaid, he did not know whether his hon. Friend proposed to withdraw the clause or not; but, before it was withdrawn, he wished to say a word or two upon the principle to which it related. He was not aware whether his hon. Friend was a member of the Proportional Representation Society, of which the hon. Baronet the Member for the University of London (Sir John Lubbock) was the President. He hardly imagined that he was, because it appeared to him that the proposal made to-day was so much more simple, practical, and intelligible than any which had yet emanated from that Society. He hardly could have been converted by any of the general propositions of the Proportional Representation Society, who had set themselves to work out so many ingenious puzzles. He had always been strongly in favour of proportional representation; but he thought that the proposition of his hon. Friend, although, perhaps, rough and simple and therefore intelligible, might, without a complete re-adjustment of the existing constituencies, give rather more than a just representation to a minority. At all events, wherever a minority existed of one-third in the case of three Members in any constituency it would enable them to return one Member; but under other conditions it would give rather more than their fair share. If they dealt with the question next year they would have had a sort of preliminary discussion in regard to the principle which he hoped would be serviceable. He had taken notice of the observations of the hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Stuart-Wortley), who was anxious to dissociate himself from any proposal so reasonable as this; but in the event of Sheffield returning three Members at the next election the hon. Member might scarcely still remain of the same mind. He hoped his hon. Friend the Member for Knaresborough (Mr. T. Collins) would feel that he had done good service in bringing the question before the House, and that he would now withdraw the clause rather than press it to a Division. His hon. Friend would see that there were many circumstances, apart from those which were raised by

    619
    the proposal, which might prejudice the clause on the present occasion.
    LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, the proposal of this clause of his hon. Friend and the short discussion which had taken place upon it convinced him more and more of the extreme inconvenience to which the House had been subjected by the determination of Her Majesty's Government to take one isolated portion of a Reform Bill by itself, and press it through Parliament without going through the form of taking Parliament into their confidence on all the other subjects which must come before them on the question of Reform. Nothing could be more clear than the statement of his right hon. Member for North Lincolnshire (Mr. J. Lowther) that this question was essentially a question affecting the franchise. If Her Majesty's Government had done anything at all they had signally failed to convince him that it would be injudicious to show their whole hand in respect of the great scheme of Reform. At least, they might have given to the House an indication of their view upon this question which was essentially connected with the franchise part of the subject. Her Majesty's Government declined to do that, and the result, no doubt, would be that this measure would go from the House of Commons without the slightest indication on the part of Her Majesty's Government as to the way in which they were prepared to deal with the great question of minority or proportional representation. Neither the House nor the country at large would be in possession of the views of the Government on this most important part of the question.
    MR. WARTONagreed with the noble Lord who had just sat down as to the extreme inconvenience occasioned by the determination of the Government to refuse to deal with the question of Reform as a whole. They had, however, gained one thing—namely, that although the Government had made no sign it was quite clear that the Prime Minister had a very distinct animus against the representation of minorities. No doubt he had endeavoured to affect impartiality; but it was quite clear, from the observations he had made, that he was against minority representation. The Prime Minister was too honest to disguise his thoughts and all the rest of the Ministers were afraid to state their own thoughts
    620
    until they knew what it was they would be allowed to say upon the subject. The Committee were, however, able to judge for themselves what course the Government would take next year upon this question. The Prime Minister had indicated what he thought and felt, and it was perfectly clear that the right hon. Gentleman had a strong animus in his own mind against the principle of proportional representation.
    MR. THOMAS COLLINSremarked that he had shown that in the majority of the constituencies there was what in another year he believed the House would consider to be an unfair proportion of voting power in respect of this dual representation. He hoped the prime Minister would take that into his consideration during the course of the next 12 months, and having, as he believed, done some good by moving the Amendment, he was willing to save the Committee the trouble of dividing, and would therefore ask leave to withdraw it.
    MR. LEWISsaid, he was surprised that an hon. Member of such discernment as the hon. Member for Knaresborough should allow himself to be taken in by the assurance of the Government that an opportunity of discussing the question would be given next year. Why, with reference to anything which might then be put forward in the form of an Amendment, they would be told not once, but ten times, what they had been told this Session—namely, that the Government Bill would be imperilled. They were likely to see the Prime Minister imploring his supporters over and over again not to imperil the Bill by introducing their crotchets. When they reached the Amendment of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler), he thought hon. Gentlemen on those Benches would be able to show how curious would be the position of matters if an election took place on the bastard constituencies which might yet be the result of the hon. Member's proposal. They might be assured that the Redistribution Bill put forward by the Government next year would be presented at them for acceptance as a whole, as a pistol might be; hon. Members who supported the Government, and who were in favour of the principle of the Amendment of the hon. Member for Knaresborough, would find themselves

    621
    with a General Election immediately in front of them, and there would then be far greater reason than there was now for the Government to say that their Bill must be accepted without alteration.
    Clause, by leave, withdrawn
    MR. CLARE READ, in moving the following clause: —
    (Non-resident voter for boroughs.)
    "Every man having a qualification in a borough which would, "before the passing of this Act, have entitled him to vote for a county, and who is not qualified as a householder to vote in such "borough, shall he entitled to be registered as a voter and to vote at an election for such borough: Provided, That a man shall not be entitled to be registered as a voter, or to vote at any election for a county, in respect of such qualification,"
    said, the Prime Minister, in the speech with which he introduced the Bill to the House, stated that he was not in favour of electoral districts, and that he intended to preserve the existing distinction between borough and county. With the permission of the Committee he would read the eloquent words of the right hon. Gentleman, who said—
    "The question is, whether there is not in pursuits and associations, and in social circumstances a difference, between town and country, between borough and shire, which it is expedient, becoming, and useful to maintain?"— (3 Hansard, [285] 129.)
    He (Mr. Clare Read) certainly did think it expedient, becoming, and useful to maintain that distinction; and therefore lie desired to make it more practical and more real. The right hon. Gentleman, it was true, had somewhat qualified his statement since; because, in speaking the other day upon a Motion of the hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Ecroyd), he said that the borough and county differed in this; that whereas the county had not much to do with the borough, the borough was comprehended in the county, as an island was surrounded by water. But, so far from the town being a part of the county, as the Prime Minister had stated, some had found in the course of his administration of the old Cattle Diseases Act that there was a decided antagonism between them. He did not think the Committee was aware of the extent to which the borough qualification entered into some county constituencies. In South Leicestershire, for instance, he thought he was right in saying that one-half of the freeholders who lived in the borough of
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    Leicester voted for Leicestershire, and the result was not only that electors of that flourishing town returned two Liberal Members to Parliament; but they also succeeded in returning to the House a Liberal Member to represent the county. His object was to reserve some counties which were more or less agricultural, and when he used the term "agricultural" he did not particularly refer to the owners and occupiers of land. Their case would be certainly hard; but he wished to point out that if something in the nature of the principle embodied in the clause which he was about to ask the Committee to read a second time were not included in the Bill, a large number of agricultural labourers would be overwhelmed by the votes of the freeholders in the boroughs. The old franchise law, as was very well known, distinguished between the borough and the county in this way—that the counties were supposed to represent property, and the boroughs residence. That distinction, however, had passed away, and he contended that when they were assimilating the two franchises the owner of property should be allowed to vote where his heart and his interest lay—that was to say, in the borough, if he had property there. While, as far as he was concerned, he acknowledged and appreciated the difficulties under which the Prime Minister had settled the franchise, he thought it would be well that his proposal should be adopted, and he believed it would help in the matter of registration. The right hon. Gentleman also defended the extension of the franchise to agricultural labourers, by saying that there were already some five or six boroughs in which the agricultural labourer had a vote; and he (Mr. Clare Read) would say in defence of his proposal that there were also five or six boroughs in England in which the borough freeholders voted for the borough. There was the City of Norwich, in which he had the privilege of voting, as well as others in which freeholders voted for the borough, as he believed, with success; and he was not aware of any inconvenience having resulted there-from. The custom, he believed, had existed in Scotland from time immemorial, and he considered that he was entitled to the support of the hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Anderson), who the other day, on the Amendment of the hon.

    623
    Member for Preston (Mr. Ecroyd), said he should support the Motion if the principle of dual voting which it contained could be got rid of. But there were two or three hon. Friends around him who were not in favour of his proposal. The hon. Member for South Warwickshire (Sir Eardley Wilmot), for instance, did not like it, because he said it would take from the counties a certain amount of property qualification which he would desire to retain in them. That was so; but that removal he did not think would do them any harm. While men now possessed a double vote in the borough might in course of time come to be disfranchised, his clause would provide for the manufacturer outside the borough having a vote for the borough which he was not now entitled to. The hon. Member for West Suffolk said he did not like the clause, because it was a disfranchising Amendment. He (Mr. Clare Read) understood the Prime Minister, when introducing the Bill, to say that it was not to be a disfranchising Bill at all, and that all voters who were now on the Register should continue to exercise the franchise. If that were correct, he supposed that words might be introduced to give effect to it. He had no wish whatever to disfranchise anybody, and therefore he hoped his hon. Friend would support the clause. He said that his proposal would enfranchise those who lived just outside boroughs, and had property within them, and because he believed that it would be to their interest that they should be admitted, he begged to move the clause which stood in his name.
    New Clause (Non-resident voters for boroughs,)—(Mr. Clare Read,)—brought up, and read the first time.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."
    MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, I am sorry to be obliged to oppose the Amendment of the hon. Member for West Norfolk. In the first place, it involves a very great innovation in the system of county voting for boroughs in respect of property in boroughs which the hon. Gentleman proposes to change, and the proposal is not encouraged by the fate which has attended similar proposals on former occasions, for Parliament has always shown itself unwilling to entertain them.
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    The hon. Gentleman stated that I have observed that the town was part of the county, but that the county was not part of the town. That is a principle which is recognized by the Constitution and by long practice, and I know no reason for the innovation which the clause of the hon. Gentleman would introduce. The hon. Gentleman may say that in certain cases the clause would enfranchise persons who otherwise would have no vote for the borough. I admit that proposisition; but it is subject, first, to the observation that the case would be exceedingly rare in which it would enfranchise anyone; and, secondly, that the clause was in its main features a large disfranchising clause. Of that there could be no question whatever. Another innovation which the clause would bring about would be to make the freehold franchise in boroughs independent of residence. To the extension proposed by the hon. Gentleman we are not prepared to assent. I cannot conceive that any proposal would be received with more universal unpopularity in the towns of the country.
    SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHsaid, he was somewhat surprised that the right hon. Gentleman should have opposed the clause of his hon. Friend (Mr. Glare Read) on the ground that it was an innovating and disfranchising clause. Surely there never was a greater innovation than the Bill they were considering, and he thought it hard that the Committee should be called upon to reject the clause of his hon. Friend simply on the ground that it was an innovation. The right hon. Gentleman objected that this was a disfranchising clause; but what had the right hon. Gentleman done with regard to the owners of property whom the clause proposed to deal with? He admitted that he did not disfranchise them; but he had done his best to swamp their influence in the constituencies. He could not, however, support the proposal of his hon. Friend, because it appeared to him that if any class of borough freeholders ought to be transferred from the counties to the boroughs, it was the residents, who were precisely those whom the hon. Gentleman did not propose to transfer. Under the circumstances, although he sympathized with the intention of his hon. Friend, he trusted he would not press the clause to a Division.
    MR. WALTERsaid, he knew it was quite useless to say anything in defence of the Amendment of his hon. Friend opposite. He advised him to follow the example of his Predecessors, and not press his clause to a Division. He was bound to say, however, that having had occasion to look very carefully into this matter several years ago, he saw no reason why there should be this permanent distinction between counties and boroughs which it was sought to perpetuate. Some hon. Members entertained a great horror of electoral districts. After all, what was an electoral district? What was a county but an electoral district? What was a borough but an electoral district? On what grounds could any reasonable man contend that persons ought to vote in one electoral district in respect of property lying in another electoral district? It was not the case, as some supposed, that a borough consisted merely of houses. There were some 60 Parliamentary boroughs which contained a very large area of agricultural land; and he would give an example to the Committee of what seemed to him to constitute the absurd state of things which resulted from the present system. Take the case of the borough of East Retford. It contained 200,000 acres of land, being about half the size of the county of Berkshire. It included the whole of the magnificent properties known as the "Dukeries." It seemed to him a very absurd state of things that the owners of those properties should vote for that portion of the county of Nottingham not included in the borough of East Retford, but that their tenants should all vote for the borough of East Retford. It seemed to him that the continuance of this anomaly was absolutely indefensible. They must either make a borough very different from what it really was—at least, something very different from the popular notion of it—or else they would be compelled to act on the principle—a sound and Constitutional one as he believed it to be—that a man should vote for that district in which his property lay. It was useless to speak of this Bill as being a measure for assimilating the county and the borough franchise. The Bill did nothing of the kind. The borough franchise was thrown into the county; but the county franchise was not taken into the boroughs.
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    He did not advise his hon. Friend to press the matter to a Division now. He did not think that the Committee really took in the meaning of the term "Parliamentary borough;" but he hoped that when this matter came before them again—and it was possible it would do so next year—it would be thoroughly looked into.
    MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, he hoped the hon. Member for West Norfolk (Mr. Clare Read) would not misunderstand the position he intended to take with reference to his proposal. The Prime Minister had divided this subject very properly under two heads. The hon. Gentleman proposed, first of all, that the qualification in a borough which would entitle a man to vote for the county should confer upon him a borough vote. So far as that went he agreed with his hon. Friend; and if he went to a Division he should vote for the clause with the object of amending it afterwards. He thought they should say that property in a borough should give a vote for the borough, however small that property might be; but his hon. Friend went further than that, and in an almost totally opposite direction. He went on, to say—
    "Provided that a man shall not be entitled to be registered as a voter, or to vote at any election for a county in respect of such qualification."
    That amounted to a disfranchisement of the freeholder so far as the county was concerned; and it was, therefore, a proposal which he was not prepared to support. He had thrown out a suggestion the other day which he feared he should be too sanguine if he were to expect the right hon. Gentleman to accept, but which expressed his view that a person, who was a freeholder in a borough should be entitled to vote for the borough as a freeholder, and also that he should be entitled to vote as a freeholder for the county. The right hon. Gentleman objected to the clause of the hon. Member on the ground that it was a disfranchising proposal; but he could not say that the proposal which he (Mr. J. Lowther) made came within that category. On the contrary, it would allow a voter to give a vote for the Parliamentary Division in which his property was situated, and would, at the same time, enable him to have what the Prime Minister attached so much im-

    627
    portance to—namely, his Constitutional rights as well.
    MR. CLARE READsaid, he should not have thought of bringing this clause forward unless the county and borough franchise had been made practically identical. If they abolished the real distinction between the property qualification in counties and the residential qualification in boroughs, then he said the owner of property might be allowed to vote where that property was situated. The Act of 1869, he believed, disfranchised a great number of those freeholders, because, as he thought he was right in saying, a man who occupied property in a borough must vote for the borough and not for the county, and it was only when a man had a separate property qualification for a county that if he lived in a borough he could vote for the county. He thanked the hon. Member for Berkshire (Mr. Walter) for the support he had given to the principle contained in the clause, which showed that, although hon. Gentlemen, near him had not felt able to support it, it was a legitimate corollary to a Bill which would introduce a great innovation into the electoral system of the country. He would ask leave to withdraw the clause.
    Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
    MR. H. H. FOWLER, in moving the following clause: —
    (Commencement of Act.)
    "This Act shall commence) and come into operation on the first day of January one thousand eight hundred and eighty-five,"
    said, the clause he was about to ask the Committee to read a second time had been already so fully discussed in advance that, under ordinary circumstances, he should have contented himself with formally moving it only. Having regard, however, to what had been said on both sides of the House as to the value and worthlessness of the Amendment, he hoped the Committee would indulge him for a few minutes while he explained its meaning and intention. The effect of the clause would be to postpone the operation of the Act until the 1st of January, 1885. The practical effect of that would be that county householders and artizans would after that date be in the same position as the enfranchised borough householder, and, subject to the provisions of the law with regard to the
    628
    payment of rates, would be put on the Register in the summer, and would be subject to the revision of the Revising Barrister in the autumn, and at the end of the year would be duly qualified as a voter to exercise the franchise on the 1st of January, 1886. It was said that the clause added nothing to the Bill. That was not correct, and he would ask any hon. Member to say what would be the position of the Bill if the clause were not introduced. Without the clause the Act would come into force immediately after it had received the Royal Assent; and the House before it parted with a Bill had no knowledge as to when the Royal Assent would be given to it. Assuming that to take place before the 31st of July, the new franchise could come into force immediately, and produce a state of things which would cause difficulty and embarrassment to all persons administering the electoral law. If the Bill received the Royal Assent after the 31st July, it was clear that the proposal he now made would simply be the expression of the normal state of the law. He asked the Committee to accept the clause, because he attached some meaning to it on either hypothesis. He thought the Bill should not leave the House of Commons without any indication as to when it was to come into force, and that it should not depend upon accident of time with regard to the Royal Assent. He thought the House of Commons should say what it meant in this respect, and he was asking the Committee to say that the Bill should not come into force until the 1st of January next year. He knew that in making that proposal he was not in harmony with other hon. Gentlemen who wished the Bill to come into force at once. The scheme of the Government all through had been that the Bill should not come into force until Parliament had had an opportunity of dealing with the question of redistribution. The statements of the Government had been unmistakable and clear upon that subject. The present Parliament must come to an end after the Session of 1885 had closed; and therefore, if they were to have an opportunity of dealing with redistribution as part of the same measure of enfranchisement, it was necessary that they should make provision for a scheme of redistribution to be submitted to Parliament next year. It was said that his proposal

    629
    did not secure that a measure of redistribution should be passed before the Franchise Bill came into operation. No; he did not propose that it should; that was not his object in moving the clause. He could not find better words than those of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South-West Lancashire (Sir R. Assheton Cross), who said on the second reading of the Bill that what the Conservative Party really wanted was some guarantee that the same body which dealt with the franchise should be in a position also to deal with the question of redistribution, and that both of those subjects might be dealt with in one Parliament, but certainly not in two. That was the way in which the right hon. Gentleman summed up the requirement of the Conservative Party. And that was their requirement up to the last two or three days—namely, that this Parliament, after having disposed of the Franchise Bill, should also deal with redistribution. But, supposing that next year Parliament did not deal with redistribution—either could not or would not deal with it, then in that case he protested against 2,000,000 people being any longer kept out of their rights. If next year the Government brought in a scheme of redistribution which the House disapproved, the House would be in a position to give effect to its disapproval; and if the Government entered into a conflict with the House it would not be the House of Commons that would go to the wall. The House would settle for itself whether next year it would deal with redistribution, and the newly-enfranchised voters would probably wait until the House had an opportunity of doing so; but if the present House of Commons declined to deal with that question, it had no right permanently to hang up the rights of the new voters, and a new election must take place in what he admitted would be very disadvantageous circumstances. But the fault of that would not rest with the constituencies; it would be the fault of the House, and that would be a lesser evil than the permanent postponement of the measure. He begged to move the clause which stood in his name.
    New Clause (Commencement of Act,) —(Mr. H. H. Fowler,)—brought up, and read the first time.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."
    MR. GLADSTONE: I think I am within the bounds of truth in saying that the substance of this Amendment has been dealt with by the process of exhaustion. As originally framed, the Bill would have taken effect after the passing of the Act; but that proposal the Government agreed to give up, and I think, in so doing, they acted in conformity with the general sense of the House. A proposal was then made which provided for what is called hanging up the operation of the activity of the new constituencies until a Redistribution Bill should have passed, and that without any limit of time being fixed. That alternative was fully considered, and the House disposed of it by decisively refusing to adopt it. Then another proposal was made by my hon. Friend the Member for South Northumberland (Mr. Albert Grey), which lay between those two, but which contemplated going to the very furthest point— as we thought to too remote a point— for the purpose of giving not a single but a double opportunity to the House to deal with redistribution during the present Parliament. That proposal, after being considered, was withdrawn, and evidently its withdrawal was agreeable to the general sense of the House. Therefore, Sir, I think I am right in saying that all possible alternatives to this clause have been disposed of, and they had been disposed of after very full consideration of all the interesting matters of argument that are capable of being raised, and that have been raised in connection with the several proposals. At last my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler) suggests to us what is the only remaining method, consistent with what we have heretofore done — namely, the adoption of a plan which shall enable the present House to deal with redistribution; but which shall not absolutely make the operation of the new constituencies contingent upon the passing of a measure of redistribution. I think I am justified in saying that that is substantially, though not technically or formally, the conclusion which the House has already sanctioned by large majorities. I will not go over the topics which

    631
    are embraced by the clause, but only say that the clause is heartily accepted by the Government, and that I hope it will be accepted by the Committee.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid, he did not deny that the Amendment proposed by his hon. Friend (Mr. H. H. Fowler) was an improvement of the Bill; but he maintained that the improvement was so small, so microscopic, as hardly to be capable of detection by the most careful observation. In fact, the only advantage he saw which would accrue to the Bill was in the event of the Royal Assent being given to the measure before the 31st of July; if that were to take place, the Amendment of his hon. Friend would undoubtedly prevent a confused registration. But if he looked at the question from a very much larger point of view, he could not see that the slightest benefit was gained by the change which the hon. Member (Mr. H. H. Fowler) proposed. In the first place, the Government were sincere or they were not sincere in saying that they meant to bring in a Redistribution Bill next year. He believed that they were sincere; he fully and absolutely accepted the repeated assurances of the Government as to their intentions in this matter. But if the Government were sincere in what they had said as to redistribution nothing whatever was gained by his hon. Friend's clause; if they were not sincere what security did it give them? For the sake of argument, if they could accept the hypothesis that the Government were deceiving the House and the country, did the hon. Gentleman really think that his clause would have the effect of binding the Government not only to bring in, but to pass a Redistribution Bill? If the Government were to bring in a Bill which the House did not like there would be an end of it. His hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler) had said—"Oh! but in a conflict between the House and the country the Government, of course, will go to the wall." He did not think the hon. Gentleman had considered what would really take place. If the Prime Minister proposed redistribution which was decidedly antagonistic to the feelings of the House what would occur would be this. At some stage of the Bill the House would declare its antagonism, and show in a very marked manner its
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    dissent to the Government proposal. The Prime Minister would then get up and say—"Under these circumstances I withdraw my Bill;" and he (Mr. A. J. Balfour) asked his hon. Friend (Mr. H. H. Fowler) what protection the House would have in such a state of things? What possibility would there be of the House passing a Redistribution Bill? The hypothesis was only to be suggested to be shown to be absurd. Even if the security was greater than it was, the gain which would result from the proposal would in no way destroy the objection he (Mr. A. J. Balfour) and his hon. Friends felt to the separation of the franchise and redistribution questions. It did not destroy that objection for this reason—that the action of the Government hampered the liberty of the House and of the Grown. The action of the Government in separating the two questions hampered the freedom of the Crown in this manner—that a Minister who might otherwise advise the Crown to dissolve Parliament would hesitate to do so unless Parliament had settled the question of redistribution. He had said it also hampered the discretion of the House. How could they possibly discuss freely the Government measure of redistribution when they knew that the alternative of that measure was not a better measure, but no measure at all? That was the alternative put before them by the Government, and that state of things was in no way remedied by the proposal of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton. If the Government came down to the House with a Redistribution Bill which was highly unpalatable to the majority of the House, the majority would hesitate, and must hesitate, before they endangered the passing of the Bill, because they would say to themselves—"It may be better that we should accept this exceedingly bad Redistribution Bill rather than go to the country upon the old constituencies and anew franchise." With that alternative before them the House would have no freedom of action next Session; and it was because of that that he could not regard the proposal of his hon. Friend as in any way palliating or mitigating the evils forced upon them by the course the Government had chosen to take.
    MR. LEWISsaid, he should vote against this clause, because he was per-

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    suaded that if he supported it, and the proposed arrangement were not upset, his mouth would be stopped upon the question of redistribution. He was surprised that a Gentleman of the practical experience and knowledge of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler) had not appreciated the whole of the registration difficulty. It was now the 17th of June, and it was conceded on all hands that this Bill could not possibly pass in time for the registration this year. It was perfectly obvious that that was so, because the first step in registration had to be taken on the 10th of June. Even if the progress of the Bill were accelerated to the utmost, it was impossible that the Bill could become law in time for the registration machinery to be put in motion respecting it this year. He was afraid that the Committee generally did not appreciate the fact that they would be in exactly in the same position next year in regard to the Redistribution Bill, unless it should happen that that Bill disfranchised no constituency, and did not enfranchise any new constituency; if, in point of fact, the Redistribution Bill made no new constituencies whatsoever, or did not take away the rights of any present constituencies, they would be exactly in the same position next year as regards the registration difficulty as they were in now. He would like to make the position clear to the Commit tee. He would suppose a new borough to be created; he would assume that West Ham, a suburb of London, containing a vast population, was made a borough constituency. What would be the result? The county Register for the parish of West Ham would be enormously reduced—in other words, hundreds and thousands of persons now on the county Register for West Ham, and next year entitled to be on the county Register for West Ham, would be struck off that Register. An entirely new borough Register would have to be made out. All occupiers and all occupying owners within the borough would be disfranchised for the county, and all occupiers who might be owners in the county entitled to register both for county and borough would only be allowed to register for the county. So that in the case of West Ham, a district which was very likely to be made a borough by the Redistribution Bill, an
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    entirely new Register would have to be prepared. The disfranchising and enfranchising operation would have to begin on the 10th of June. Did the Committee appreciate what an enormous amount of labour would be involved in respect to this very case? Perhaps they would do so when he said that there were as many as 19,800 houses in the parish of West Ham. The result of the operation would be this—that 3,000 or 4,000 per sons, entitled under the present system to be county voters, would be disfranchised as county voters and registered as borough voters. Let them take a converse case. What would be the case of a constituency now a borough which was disfranchised? The result would be that the separate borough Register now existing would have to be done away with, and the county Register would have to be largely increased; occupiers in a borough and owners in a county now separately registered for borough and county would only been titled to be registered for the county. This being the result of the operation of registration in the two cases, the consequence would, in all probability, be that House would be landed in the same difficulty at the commencement of the month of June of next year as they were in now; and, in spite of all their protests and petition, they would have a hybrid election— that was, an election upon the old constituencies but new electors. It could be said—"Oh, you can take the same course which was adopted in 1868—namely, expedite the registration." But the expediting of the registration which took place in 1868 had no reference whatever to any of the matters to which he had referred, and it simply amounted to the appointment of an additional number of Revising Barristers, in order that the increased work of registration might be completed by the month of October. The appointment of an additional number of Revising Barristers in the present instance would not enable the House to surmount the difficulties he had pointed out. It had been said that the Government, under the pressure of circumstances, might, instead of passing a special Act of Parliament, and instead of beginning the registration period in the month of June, begin the work of registration in September; but the result would be that in attempting to avoid

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    one great difficulty they would involve themselves in a greater one, because there would be such a confused registration that there would, in reality, be no Register at all. This, after all, was only one of those practical commentaries upon the absurd and illogical and unconstitutional way in which the Government had proceeded from the beginning. What he had shown was one of the natural and ordinary results from insisting to deal with the franchise question apart from the redistribution question; and he should be delighted to hear what was the explanation of the Government as to the practical way in which they proposed to avoid the difficulties he had pointed out. He did not think this matter had been considered by the Government; indeed, they would not now be discussing the Motion of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler) if the matter had been considered by the Government when they introduced their Bill. It could not be supposed for one moment, considering the period of the Session at which they introduced the Bill, that the Bill would pass through this House and the other branch of the Legislature, and receive the Royal Assent before the 10th of June, the date at which the registration period commenced, inasmuch as notices were served on the Clerks of the Peace and the Overseers. On the second reading he endeavoured to get an opportunity of pointing out this registration difficulty; but he was unable to catch the Speaker's eye. It was pointed out on the Committee stage by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Wolverhampton, and he (Mr. Lewis) also referred to it. The Government never seemed to have contemplated that there was this difficulty; they pitched the Bill on the floor of the House of Commons, and trusted to "another place" putting all matters right or rejecting the measure altogether. What the Committee had to determine was what course they were to pursue under the circumstances. To support the clause of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Wolverhampton would be to admit that it was a sufficient remedy for the blunder which the Government had committed. It was perfectly charming to hear the hon. Member for Wolverhampton let out the truth as to what he was looking forward
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    to, and as to what he hoped would happen. What was it the hon. Gentleman was hoping would happen? Why, that if next year a redistribution scheme was not passed there would be an appeal to the country on the old constituencies, but the new franchise. Did the hon. Gentleman the Member for Wolverhampton refer to the prospect as one which was worthy of any regret? The hon. Member for Wolverhampton evidently thought he had got the Tories in a fix, and that when the Redistribution Bill was brought in the probability was, they would be bound to submit as the Liberal Party below the Gangway had been bound to submit. Not a note of independence had been elicited from those hon. Gentlemen; they had been bound hand and foot, and been prevented from pushing forward any Amendment, on the ground that it would very likely shipwreck or forfeit the Bill. Next year the Opposition would have a turn. They would be told—Oh, you want redistribution, do you; you had better take this or you will get nothing." Practically they had been told so this Session, and he had no doubt they would be told so in a still more pointed manner next year. The Opposition could not take any part in aiding the passing of the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman the Member for South Northumberland (Mr. Albert Grey), because they did not believe it would be effectual for the purpose intended; they could with still less consistency have anything to do with the Amendment of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler). It was only the other day that the hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General (Sir Henry James) told them, that his hon. Friend's (Mr. H. H. Fowler's) Amendment freed them from that Registration Bill which the Government at one time had contemplated introducing this year as a supplement to this Reform Bill. Considering that the Registration Bill was heard of then for the first time, and that its introduction would be rather inconsistent with what had been said by the Government several times to the effect that they never intended to catch the House by the ears and get the newly enfranchised electors on the Register this year, he did not think they had much to thank the Government for in that respect.

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    This was a vital question, and the House would find it out next year when they came to deal with the Redistribution Bill. Next year would be a rather serious year for any Government, because the Irish difficulty would crop up again. Seeing that hon. Gentlemen from Ireland who sat below the Gangway had found that they had only to squeeze enough this squeezable Government to get what they wanted, it would be found that, so far from the Redistribution Bill being likely to have an easy time of it, it would have a very difficult one. But what position would the House be in with reference to the extreme section of the Irish Party in the House if this measure passed? The hon. Gentlemen forming the section to which he referred would say—"We have got our Franchise Bill — that is secure; we do not care how long you discuss the question of redistribution with all its complicated details; but the sooner you bring us to that period of Elysium when we shall be relegated to the constituencies the better." The "one man one vote principle" and all the other nostrums which were aired at the Leeds Conference, and which hon. Members opposite had put in their pockets at the entreaty of the Prime Minister, would be brought forward again, and it would be the new Parliament that would be called upon to settle the question of redistribution. He hoped his hon. Friends would not be so foolish as to be caught in this trap with their eyes open. They might go into the Lobby and be beaten by a large majority; but they would make a practical protest against the attempt of the Government to hoodwink the House of Commons and place them in a position of inextricable difficulty. He felt satisfied that the Members of the Committee would agree with him that this matter had not been by any means so much discussed as it ought to have been. He was of opinion that the matter should be turned inside out, and that they should ascertain from the Government what was their policy with regard to the registration difficulty under the Redistribution Bill. Unless the Government gave them the details of their scheme it would only intensify the opinion which was very largely held, that they meant to have a General Election before redistribution. He hoped that this clause
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    would not pass its second reading, if it did pass, he should propose to omit the word "five" and substitute "six," in order that there might be the whole of next year in which to deal with redistribution and registration matters.
    MR. JESSE COLLINGSsaid, he objected to the insertion of this clause, but for reasons precisely opposite to those which induced the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lewis) to oppose it. From his point of view, the hon. Gentleman was to be congratulated upon his political insight. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition (Sir Stafford Northcote) did not conceal his satisfaction at this clause, and he accepted it. ["No!"] Well, he did what was tantamount to accepting it, for he expressed the opinion that it was about the best substitute for the proposal of the right hon. and gallant Member for North Lancashire (Colonel Stanley) that was likely to be obtained; and in that he was, from his standpoint, very wise. He (Mr. Jesse Collings) could only characterize this as a change of front on the part of the Government at the expense of the 2,000,000 agricultural labourers it was now proposed to enfranchise; and although he had no doubt the clause would be carried, he wanted to make his protest against it, in order that he might have a satisfactory answer to give any of the 2,000,000 labourers, if, in the event of an Election next year, he were asked whether he supported the proposal to hang up their enfranchisement until 1886. This was a change of front on the part of the Government, because there was no doubt that when they introduced this Bill they contemplated the natural accompaniment of all Reform Bills, a special Registration Act. It was understood so in the country; but when the Amendment of the hon. Member for Portsmouth was accepted, he (Mr. Jesse Collings) had his suspicions as to what was being arranged as a compromise with regard to the proposal of the hon. Gentleman the Member for South Northumberland (Mr. Albert Grey). It was said it was only for the convenience of debate that the Amendment he referred to was withdrawn; but they saw now that it was preparatory to the hanging up of this matter until 1886. What was the meaning of the clause of his hon. Friend the Mem-

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    ber for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler)? If the Bill should pass before the 31st of July—and they could not deny the possibility—they said to the 2,000,000 agricultural labourers—"You shall not have the right to the franchise as soon as you might have it." But suppose the Bill did not pass by the 31st of July. They all knew that, in the natural course of events, the voters would be put on the list during the year 1885; and, therefore, this clause must be read in the light of the interpretation put upon it by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General (Sir Henry James), who, when speaking about it the other day, said that if the clause were carried he, on behalf of the Government, promised that no special Registration Bill should be introduced. Unless read in the light of the Attorney General's interpretation the clause of his hon. Friend (Mr. H. H. Fowler) could have no effect whatever; and, therefore, he (Mr. Jesse Collings) maintained that this was a change of intention on the part of the Government. He did not think it was likely; but suppose the Government went out of Office next spring upon some point of their policy, or suppose they resigned upon the Redistribution Bill itself, what would happen? The Opposition would come in, and have the whole manipulation of the redistribution. That was not a nice look-out for the 2,000,000 labourers, who were in future to enjoy the franchise; because, although the possession of the franchise was a good thing in itself, its value, from his point of view, very much depended on the nature of the redistribution. He had no fear us to the kind of Redistribution Bill which would be passed, because it could not be supposed for a moment that the 2,000,000 agricultural labourers would allow those already possessing the franchise to finally settle what the value of their votes should be. Any unfair Redistribution Bill would not be allowed to stand any considerable time after the 2,000,000 were admitted to power. He did not attach much importance to that; but what he did attach importance to was, that it should not be said that the Liberal Party, by their action, deprived these men of the exercise of the franchise until a certain date. If the exercise of electoral power by these men was to be postponed, let
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    it be postponed by the Opposition, or in "another place." If a General Election took place, as it might in 1885, do not let it be said that men who were considered by Parliament fit to have the vote were not allowed to use it. If the clause stood by itself, it was valueless; if it stood by the light of the interpretation of the Attorney General, which interpretation amounted to a promise that no special Registration Bill should be brought in, it was a retrograde step on the part of the Government, which he regretted. He would like the Government to fall back upon their original intention of introducing a special Registration Bill, or else leave the matter open, so that in the coming year those in power might be free to take what course they thought fit.
    MR. RAIKESsaid, it was impossible not to feel a sense of refreshment at the ingenuous candour of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Jesse Collings). He only wished other hon. Members opposite would place themselves so frankly in correspondence with the House as the hon. Gentleman had just done. At the same time, he (Mr. Raikes) rose to say that he, for one, did not think so badly of Her Majesty's Government as the hon. Member for Ipswich appeared to think of them. He did not believe that when the Bill was introduced it was the intention of the Government to pass a Registration Bill immediately on the heels of this measure, and so, practically, to exemplify that they were not in earnest in their promise to bring in a redistribution scheme. He believed the Government had intended to introduce a Redistribution Bill next year; and, so far as he could judge, there had been no change of position on their part in accepting the clause of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Wolverhampton. He very much regretted, however, that his hon. Friend should have been the Member to propose this particular new clause; because it appeared to him that, although very effective speeches had been made, both by the hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. A. J. Balfour) and the hon. Member for Londonderry (Mr. Lewis) with regard to this question, there had been no speech which had more completely demonstrated the hollowness of the clause than the speech made by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton himself; it appeared to

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    him that the clause merely amounted, as it were, to crossing "t's" and dotting "i's." By it they would not make the slightest difference; but they would run a great risk of attaching value to that which really had no value. He dismissed it altogether as having no real or appreciable bearing on the merits of the case. In the event of the Bill obtaining the Royal Assent before the 31st of July, the clause would have some value, inasmuch as it would tend to prevent the confusion which would arise; but he was certain that such an event was not only in the highest degree improbable, but that if it seemed to be within the bounds of possibility, it would be possible, either in this House or the other House, to take some step which would prevent the confusion contemplated. Although a good deal had been said as to what would be their position in the event of a Redistribution Bill not being passed, and as to how extremely worthless this provision would be to protect them against the inconvenience which would then arise, he wanted to ask the House to consider what effect the clause would have upon the future registration of the constituencies in the event of a Redistribution Bill passing? As he had said, he regarded it as extremely improbable that this Bill would receive the Royal Assent before the 31st of July next. What probability was there of a Redistribution Bill, even if it should pass next year, receiving the Royal Assent by the 31st of July? He did not believe, however sincere the Government might be as to passing a Redistribution Bill next year, that they would ever get it through; and though he did not believe this contingency would arise, those who supported a Government who indicated their sincerity in this matter ought to consider what would be the result if the Government policy was successful next year. Suppose there was a Redistribution Bill which was satisfactory to both Houses of Parliament, and it received the Royal Assent, what must be the first consequence? There must then be a Boundary Commission, and that Commission must examine the limits of every constituency probably in the whole of the United Kingdom. They must then report, and their Report must be considered by Parliament, and legislation must ensue upon that Report;
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    and when that Boundary Commission had been appointed, and had sat and reported, and when legislation had taken place, they would then have to pass a Registration Bill, in order to deal with the new constituencies created under that Boundary Commission; and, therefore, anybody who could suppose that the work of redistribution could come into operation next year must lay himself open to the charge of not having fairly or fully considered this question. Then, what would be the position after they had passed a Redistribution Bill, even if the Boundary Commission should report in time for a Winter Session in 1885, and a Bill should be passed in November or December, in order to enable the Registers to be made up for the new constituencies as delimited by the Commission? What a state of confusion they would be in in getting the Registers in readiness by January! He thought it extremely probable that there would be no Registers. He attached very little value to the Amendment of the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Albert Grey), though he thought that, in view of all these difficulties, even the 1st of January, 1887, would be the earliest date when the Registers would be ready; and he considered the present Amendment worth a good deal less than that of the hon. Member opposite. He hoped the House and the country would take note that if this clause was added to the Bill, at all events, it was added to the Bill in defiance of the protests of those who were really anxious to see this scheme properly supplemented by a scheme of redistribution, and which without that would only lead to confusion and unnecessary trouble, because all through 1885 the registration authorities would be hard at work providing a Register which was never to come into operation if the Government were in earnest; and after they had devoted the greater part of 1885 to making this factitious Register, at the end of the year they would be called upon to undo the whole of the work. These considerations, he thought, were worthy of attention by the Committee; and he should have been sorry to have sat through this discussion without contributing a humble opinion that, however plausible the arguments in favour of this clause might be, they were of extremely little substantial value.
    MR. A. R. D. ELLIOTwished to know whether provisions could not be inserted in the Bill making it come into operation in Scotland at the same time as in other parts of the United Kingdom?
    LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILLsaid, he was unable to agree with the right hon. Member (Mr. Raikes) as to the value of this clause, which was now moved by a supporter of the Government. Before any date was suggested nine-tenths of the House were open in mind as to whether redistribution should form a part of the scheme of Reform or not. That matter was left entirely open; but the Committee would remember that on Friday last the Prime Minister made a very precise, and, indeed, a very solemn declaration, in addition to what had previously fallen from him, to the effect that it was the intention of the Government to make "a strong and resolute effort to deal with the question of redistribution next year." Although he was not one who could be supposed to hold a very high opinion of any declaration by the Government, still this was a declaration in which the Committee might be prepared to place confidence. But, in addition to that declaration, the Government decided to accept the Amendment of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton. He put these two things together, and he noticed that, with the exception of the speech of the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Jesse Collings), there had not been a word of objection to the course which the Prime Minister had adopted from any part of the House on the other side. Therefore, they ought to take precautions to insure a reasonable and proper allowance of time for the settlement of redistribution before the new enfranchisement took effect. He did not think he put the matter too high, and he could not say that he looked upon the declaration of the Prime Minister as a concession of great value. In connection with this point, he could not help recalling the plan that was adopted by Mr. Disraeli in 1867. Having passed a Reform Bill, in which no date was mentioned, and having been beaten on the Irish Church Bill, what course did Mr. Disraeli take? He came down and announced that he had advised Her Majesty that a Dissolution should take place, and that an appeal should be made to the new constituencies. That was assented to unani-
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    mously by the House of Commons, and he thought that formed a very strong precedent in the event of a Dissolution taking place, and the Government should appeal to the new constituencies rather than to the old. But what he wanted to point out was that, if the Prime Minister adopted such a course as that, he would be only following the precedent set by Mr. Disraeli. But he thought they were completely guaranteed against anything of that sort; for, by inserting this date in the Bill, together with the declaration of the Prime Minister, they declared that so far as they could provide, no matter what might happen to the present Government, the Bill should not come into operation until 1886. This was, therefore, a guarantee of some value, if not a complete guarantee, and one which ought not to be refused. He should be glad to know from the Prime Minister, if that was possible, whether, considering the fact that the scheme of redistribution would probably be much larger than any former scheme, and considering that the time of Parliament was now much more occupied than it used to be when Reform was formerly before the House, he should be glad to know whether the Prime Minister thought the ordinary length of the Session, taking into account the other matters which Parliament must deal with, would be sufficient to deal with the question of redistribution? He thought it possible that great doubt might arise on that point, unless precautions were taken against the Session proving too short for that purpose. Then there was another matter which might be taken into consideration, and which would strengthen confidence in the declaration as to the intentions and the earnestness of the Government. He imagined that the question of boundaries need not be deferred till next year. He saw no reason why that should not be provided for in the course of the coming autumn; but on that point he was only asking for information; and if he was in error he would apologize to the Committee and to those who had made up their minds that on any pretext whatever the extension of the franchise was too large, and was altogether opposed to Constitutional safety. He could understand those who held that opinion opposing this Amendment, and declining to consider it as a concession or anything of any

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    value; but there were many others who thought that the extension of the franchise was not in itself an evil, or a measure which they should be afraid to deal with; and as they were unable to compel the Government to adopt what he thought would have been the right and proper course—namely, dealing with the two subjects at once, he thought they might consider the concession as to which a certain value did attach.
    MR. GLADSTONE: Considering the points which the noble Lord has raised, in conjunction with the general spirit of his remarks, I may answer at once. One of the noble Lord's questions relates to the possibility of an ordinary Session not being long enough for a Redistribution Bill; and the noble Lord asks me whether it would be the duty of the Government to consider the adoption of special means for pushing the measure forward. First of all, let me say that I consider the pledge, which, undoubtedly, we intend to stamp and seal by assenting to this clause, as a pledge which we give not so much as to the present Administration as a pledge representing that which will always be the Executive Government of the country. Our desire is to enable the present Government, as well as a future Government, to deal with redistribution next year. Certain things may occur to defeat that object; but that is what we consider will be the duty of the present Government, and of any that may take its place. Speaking in that sense, we think it would be the duty of the Government, having taken that pledge, to take every secondary or subsidiary measure that would give it effect. I do not like to entertain such subjects as that of lengthening any ordinary Session which is felt in our time to have reached the limits of physical or mental strength. It is a question in what way time may be saved. There are many ways of doing that. There is one case I may mention. In 1872 there was a measure dealing with redistribution; but I should like to say that it would be our duty to adopt every measure which would increase, so far as necessity demanded, the available time for dealing with redistribution next year. That, I think, probably gives an answer, as far as it is possible to do so. Then the noble Lord asks whether it might not be possible to relieve next Session, and prevent that
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    block of Business which some have anticipated as likely to impede the arrangements with regard to Reform, by issuing a Boundary Commission in the present year. That ought not to be a subject entirely neglected; and though I cannot say that we have actually arrived at a conclusion upon that point, give an opinion—though not a final yet it is a very proper subject for consideration, and so far as I am able to opinion—there is reason to hope that considerable economy of time and work might, perhaps, be effected by the adoption of that course in the present year.
    SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: The last observation of the right hon. Gentleman opens up a very serious question. I own I do not understand how it is proposed that a Boundary Commission should be appointed until we know what are to be the boroughs whose boundaries are to be investigated; and if we are to know which are to be the boroughs whose boundaries are to be investigated, we must know something of the scheme of redistribution. In point of fact, the further we go in the discussion of this Bill, the more do we see reason to feel the inconvenience of the course which the Government have adopted. I must say that the opinions which I held, and which I endeavoured to express at the beginning of the discussions on this Bill, have been confirmed and strengthened by what has taken place; and I feel more strongly now than I did at the beginning of the discussion that redistribution ought to have been made part of the measure, or, if not actually made a part of the same Bill, it ought to have been proposed in such a form as to give a clear understanding as to what it was to be. When that was refused, and we were told we must go on and pass this Bill before seeing what redistribution was to be, the next position we endeavoured to take up, was, at all events, to secure for us and for Parliament an opportunity of seeing the redistribution scheme before this Bill should become law; and, therefore, my right hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Stanley) brought forward his Amendment with a view to secure that the enormous alteration of the franchise now to take place until the redistribution had been settled. The House did not agree to that, and we were then

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    left to discuss the Franchise Bill by itself as well as we could. The other day the hon. Member for South Northumberland (Mr. Albert Grey) brought forward a Motion, to which reference has been made. That was not a Motion which, in itself, secured the object we have in view, or which was expressed in the Amendment of my right hon. and gallant Friend. We listened to the discussion that was raised by the hon. Member for South Northumberland; but it certainly seemed to us that there was very little to be gained, if there was anything at all to be gained, by putting in any date into the Bill, unless, indeed, you put in such a date as to carry the Bill over the necessary effects of redistribution, which, I suppose, nobody would propose or anybody would accept. That would be fixing a date which would have some reason about it, because we should have been sure there would be no appeal to the newly enfranchised voters until some other measure had been passed, or until redistribution had taken place. Now, with regard to what passed on the occasion when the hon. Member for South Northumberland brought forward his Motion. It is said I expressed some approval of the course which the hon. Member adopted in withdrawing his Motion, and that I had done so because I was satisfied with the approval of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton. That was not at all the case. What I said was that, looking at the Motion of the hon. Member for South Northumberland, it did not seem to me to have in it any security whatever for effecting the object we had in view, and that the only security we had was the word and the pledge of the Ministry. I do not undervalue the word and the pledge of the Ministry; on the contrary, I said I was quite sure that these pledges were given honestly, and that the intention of the Government was to redeem them, either then, or on some other occasion. I made the remark which I now repeat, that it is not altogether what may be the intentions of the Government, but what may be in the power of the Government; and it is extremely doubtful whether circumstances may not arise which, with all the good-will of the Government, may prevent their bringing forward, or at least passing, a redistribution scheme next Session. Then there is the
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    consideration that they may bring forward a scheme which may indeed be a redistribution scheme, but which will make matters worse than ever. The hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Jesse Collings) has given us to understand that what he and his Friends want is the manipulation of the constituencies. If they cannot gain that, they may say—"Very well; then we decline to allow any Bill whatever to be passed. You will then be thrown over to a new Parliament which will be elected by the new constituencies, and when we get the new Parliament to work then we shall see what we shall see." There is no concealment about it. The hon. Member for Ipswich is perfectly honest and frank, as he always is, in making his statements. He does not conceal anything. With regard to another point to which reference has been made once or twice—the idea of passing a Registration. Bill to give effect to this Bill at an earlier date than would naturally be the case. If no such Registration Bill is passed it seems almost certain that the words of this Amendment will be mere surplusage; because whether they are in or not, unless this Bill passes into law by the 31st of July, they will be of no effect. We are told that such a Bill was passed by Mr. Disraeli's Government in 1868. It is true there was such Bill for the purpose of carrying out registration in order that an appeal might be made to the new constituency rather than to the old. But that was in very different circumstances, and meant a very different thing to that now suggested. That was not to make an imperfect scheme take effect. It was to make a perfect scheme take effect. The Dissolution was caused by circumstances which had nothing whatever to do with the question of Reform, and the effect of the vote was to render it necessary or desirable that there should be a Dissolution and an appeal to the people, and then the Government of the day and the Prime Minister, Mr. Disraeli, thought it right to provide that the appeal should be made to the new constituency which had been established by the Act of 1867–8, their scheme of Reform having been perfected and completed. But that was a wholly different thing from any new registration to meet an incomplete scheme of Reform, and giving it where the franchise has been extended and the redistribution of seats

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    has not been settled. Therefore, I am thrown back on the consideration that it is impossible to suppose that a new Registration Bill could be passed under the circumstances of the present time, and that if it is not passed the words of this Amendment are mere surplusage and not worthy of high, consideration. We are told that if the Amendment is mere surplusage we may as well have it as a sort of record. Yes; but we are also told that by accepting it we are implying that we are satisfied with it. That is not the case, and we should be deceiving the House and the country. We are not in the least satisfied. My right hon. and gallant Friend made a proposal which did satisfy us; but this does not.
    MR. THOMAS COLLINSsaid, that if he went into the Lobby alone he should be glad of the opportunity of doing so against this clause, for it seemed to him to be not worth the paper upon which it was written. As a matter of fact, this clause would have no operation whatever, because there was no chance of this Bill passing through all its stages by July 31. Registration would begin on the 10th of June, which had now been a week passed; and long before the Bill could receive the Royal Assent the facts which went to make up registration would have become known, and, therefore, this clause was really worth nothing. It was an attempt to deceive the country as to the concession made by the Government. It would be better to divide on the clause, and not encumber the Bill with this Amendment.
    MR. TOMLINSONwished to make a few remarks, not in repetition of any of the arguments which had been advanced, but in reference to the important statement which the Prime Minister had just made. The Committee might recollect that on the Motion to go into Committee on this Bill he had called attention to the question of boundaries, and he had put on the Paper an Instruction to the Committee giving them power to insert clauses for the purpose of appointing a Boundaries Commission. On that proposal he obtained the best Division yet given on this Bill; and, therefore, he wished to express his satisfaction in finding that the Prime Minister had come round to his view. On the occasion he referred to the right
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    hon. Gentleman had said that the Government did not think the question of boundaries belonged to a Bill dealing solely with the franchise; but that it belonged to the delimitation of areas. He ventured to think that a Commission might be set to work at once on some of the boroughs which no possible scheme of redistribution would deprive of Members. He did not know whether that was what the right hon. Gentleman intended; but he understood him to state it to be the intention of the Government to bring in a Bill to appoint a Boundaries Commission this Sesssion. [Interruption.] What he was now asking was that the Prime Minister having now made this declaration, they should have some further information as to how he meant to deal with the subject. [Continued interruptions.] As these interruptions continued, he begged to move that Progress be reported.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again." — (Mr. Tomlinson.)
    MR. GLADSTONE: I trust that that Motion is not intended to be pressed, and I rise to answer the question of the hon. Member. The hon. Gentleman is mistaken. I made no reference to the introduction of a Bill to appoint a Boundaries Commission this Session. We entertain no such idea; nor did I understand the question of the noble Lord to refer to such an idea. The point in my mind was this—I said it was quite evident that the work of such a Commission could not be completed; but the question was whether a Royal Commission should be appointed by the authority of the Crown. That was the course taken in 1831, before the passing, or even the introduction, of the Reform Bill.
    MR. PELLsaid, he regarded the Motion to report Progress as justified by the noisy interruptions of his hon. Friend's remarks. The answer of the Prime Minister had no meaning whatever for him, because he was unable to hear the remarks of his hon. Friend, and such a Motion as this was the only means that Members had of insuring freedom of debate. The hon. Member was perfectly justified in making the Motion; but Liberal Members were not justified in their interruptions.
    MR. THOMAS COLLINSsaid, he thought that at times it was desirable to have a moral clôture; but that was not so on the present occasion. The hon. Member was not endeavouring to obstruct Business, and therefore he thought the Committee might tolerate the hon. Member.
    Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
    MR. TOMLINSONsaid, he understood the Prime Minister now to state that a Boundary Commission could be issued by the Crown without coming to Parliament for authority to do so. He thought he was right in saying that in the Act of 1868 there was a special clause inserted for the appointment of a Royal Commission; and as the Assistant Commissioners who would be required to work out the details did not, he believed, work gratuitously, it would, he thought, be necessary to come to Parliament to authorize their appointment. He wished to impress upon the Committee that this was no trivial matter. It was dealt with as a serious matter on going into Committee, and the Prime Minister had brought it forward now to meet a suggestion that Parliament would have great difficulty in dealing with this subject next Session. He thought the Committee had a right to know something more as to the intentions of the Government with reference to this matter.
    MR. LEWISsaid, he was sure the Committee would like to know something more about this Boundary Commission. This matter was like that of the Registration Bill the other day—it crept out by degrees. Looking at the matter practically, if the Boundary Commission was to be appointed by the authority of the Crown, and not by Act of Parliament, then what were they to inquire into? The boundaries of all the boroughs that might be created? A question had been asked as to what were the intentions of the Government, and the Prime Minister had replied that the Government had not yet decided; but they appeared to entertain the idea of issuing a Boundary Commission, in order to take a step ahead of redistribution. He did not think it was possible to have a Boundary Commission, unless the Government had previously defined the constituencies; but the Prime Minister had stated that the Redistribution Bill
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    had not been practically considered; that the Government had only got to certain lines, and yet it now appeared that they had been considering whether they should issue a Royal Commission to determine the boundaries of constituencies, about which they had not yet made up their minds. That seemed to him to be simply trifling with the question, and he held that the Committee had a right to be dealt with more considerately. He assumed that the Attorney General had no answer to the objections and the suggestions he (Mr. Lewis) had made with regard to registration; and he was justified in assuming that, because the hon. and learned Gentleman had referred to him on Friday as one who was experienced in the subject. It was clear neither the Attorney General nor the Government had attempted to make any answer to his objection, and next year the House and country would find themselves in the same difficulty as now with regard to registration.
    LORD JOHN MANNEESsaid, he wished to say one word, and one word only, in regard to what had fallen from, the Prime Minister—that they were to have a Royal Commission to make inquiries and advise Her Majesty's Government in regard to the boundary question. The right hon. Gentleman had told them that the same thing had occurred in 1831; but, as a matter of fact, something more than that had occurred in 1831, and he (Lord John Manners) ventured to say that there was no part of the Reform Bill that gave rise to so much angry disputation, and so much accusation of unjust and partizan action, as the mode in which the boroughs to be disfranchised and enfranchised under the recommendation of that very Royal Commission were to be dealt with. He would point out that in 1867, in order to avoid any imputation of any kind, it was determined to have a Boundary Commission, and that Commission was not only settled by Act of Parliament, but the name of every one of the Commissioners was inserted in the Act and submitted beforehand to the judgment of the House. This was done so that there might be no imputation as to the fairness and impartiality of the advice and recommendation which the Boundary Commissioners might give to the Government and Parliament. But now it seemed that they were to revert

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    to the less satisfactory system of 1831, and were to have this immense redistribution of political power virtually settled by a Commission, in the nomination of which Parliament would not be consulted, but the Members of which would be virtually the nominees of Her Majesty's Government. He ventured to say that a settlement of that kind would go no way whatever to reconcile the feeling of the country to the measure, in regard to which the Government were now imposing this fragment of a Reform Bill upon the House of Commons.
    SIR ROBERT PEEL: The Committee seems to me to be in such a state of excitement that it is hardly possible to discuss a matter of such great importance at this very late hour of the afternoon. I could have hoped that this discussion would have lasted not only to-day, but would have gone into a considerable part of a subsequent day. The statement of the Prime Minister with regard to the Boundary Commission he contemplated, when he told us himself that he had not made up his mind as to what should be the programme of redistribution, is one of a most startling nature, and one which should engage the attention of the Committee for a much longer period than seems now to be allotted to it. I should like to make an observation as to what has fallen from the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Jesse Collings), and the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler). The speech of the hon. Member for Ipswich was, no doubt, of a very candid character; but it was so candid that I have great apprehension that the Government will not deal with this question of redistribution in a fair and complete spirit. What he said was this. He wanted to avoid the possibility of the Conservative Party having the manipulation of the redistribution of seats. Well, we know that perfectly well. It is very true that the Prime Minister told us some time ago that he was anxious to deal with this question of redistribution in a fair and just spirit, and I believed the Prime Minister. But we heard also from the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Chamberlain) that this question of redistribution was not one of principle, but one of Parliamentary tactics. That is exactly what we feel, and it is upon that ground that in the few observations
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    I made upon the second reading of the Bill I pointed out to the House how important it was that we should have, as in 1832, and as in 1867, a complete scheme before us, when we should be able to deal with the subject in a practical manner. And what is the proposal of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton? This afternoon he says—"Fix the date when you can pass your Redistribution Bill next year, and then; if you do not pass that Bill, you will be able to go to the country upon the extended Franchise Bill of the present year." Sir, I do not think the House of Commons is desirous of proceeding upon those lines. Quite the contrary. The Government have told us that they wish to introduce a Redistribution Bill; but it certainly appears to me that it would be unconstitutional to tie the hands of Parliament as to when the fragment of a Bill should come into operation if the remaining fragment is not passed by the House of Commons. I look with the greatest suspicion on the conduct of hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway opposite. I have the highest opinion of their integrity when they are able to exercise their integrity free and unfettered; and I say now that I do not know that I ever saw a Party sitting below the Gangway such, as is now sitting there. They do not even allow a measure to be discussed. When an hon. Friend behind me (Mr. Tomlinson) got up to make an observation as to the most important statement of the Prime Minister, he was, I may say, hooted down in his place, and not allowed to make the remarks which he fully intended to make. Certainly, he moved the adjournment of the debate, and the Committee got into a more temperate spirit and allowed him to proceed in his remarks, and they were supplemented subsequently by observations from the Prime Minister even more startling than those we had heard from him before—namely, that he contemplated a Boundary Commission; but that that Commission would proceed on lines that were not to be submitted to Parliament before the close of this Session. I think I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that. I must say that I do not see how it is possible for a Boundary Commission to deal with this question, unless we have a scheme before Parliament. We ought to have the entire scheme before us, arid I cannot accept the

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    Amendment of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, tying the hands of Parliament to a particular course, if they do not think fit to pass a complete measure, whatever my hon. Friend may say about the earnestness of the Government to pass a Redistribution Bill. My opinion is that unless the Conservative Party take very great care they will have this Redistribution Bill thrown in their faces next year, and that if they do not feel disposed to accept it the Election will then go on the Franchise Bill passed this year, giving an extended franchise to 2,000,000 of voters; but not the complete scheme which the right hon. Gentleman has proposed to the House. I am sorry to have trespassed upon the time of the House in this matter; but I do feel it to be of primary importance that we should not tie our hands. I consider that it would be most unconstitutional if we were to accept the Amendment of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, and allow a fragment of a Bill to come into operation before the remaining portions which are promised in another Session are before us.
    MR. WARTONsaid, he had a point to urge which he did not think had been sufficiently considered by hon. Gentlemen opposite. The right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had referred to a declaration made by a conspicuous Member of the Government, who had said that that question of redistribution was not one of principle, but one of Parliamentary tactics. That was perfectly true. The Conservative side of the House was quite able to see the position in which it was put; they quite understood the alternative offered to them, to have this Franchise Bill passed without redistribution, so that when redistribution was proposed it could be handed to them, as it were, with a pistol at their heads. That was a question of tactics, and to his mind he must say there was only one method of meeting such tactics. They held one trump card; and, with all respect to "another place," he trusted that that card would be played. He hoped the House of Lords would reject the Bill.
    Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
    Question put.
    The Committee divided: — Ayes 256; Noes 130: Majority 126.—(Div. List, No. 121.)
    MR. GLADSTONE: I now move to report Progress, and in doing so I wish to make an explanation. In answering the hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Tomlinson), I am not sure whether I used the words "Royal Commission" or not; but if I did I wish to say that they were, perhaps, not quite accurate, because a Royal Commission has, perhaps, too much the semblance of authority. If the Government should arrive at a conclusion, which I have said it has not, on the subject, we should follow the precedent of 1831, when certain Gentlemen were requested by the Government to undertake certain duties and obtain certain information, but the direct authority of Her Majesty was not put in requisition.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Gladstone.)
    MR. LEWISsaid, he wished to give Notice of his intention to move an Amendment to the clause.
    LORD JOHN MANNERSthought the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister was not satisfactory, and wished to point out that in 1831 the course taken was afterwards lamented and condemned by Lord Althorp himself.
    MR. W. H. SMITHsaid, that in 1831 there was a Schedule to the Bill setting forth those boroughs which were to be disfranchised. There was a scheme before Parliament of which information could be readily obtained; but there was no scheme before Parliament at the present time.
    MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, he was afraid the right hon. Gentleman's statement with regard to the Commission was misunderstood in some parts of the House. He understood it to be a Commission, whether Royal or otherwise—["Order, order!"]—he was perfectly in Order—whether it were a Royal Commission or otherwise that was to be appointed to inquire into the Boundary Question, he wished to point out that if the right hon. Gentleman appointed his Commission before he communicated his redistribution scheme to Parliament, that Commission would have to inquire into the boundaries of non-existent constituencies, as to the calling into existence

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    of which there was no proposal before the country.
    MR. GLADSTONE: I did not moan that.
    MR. LEWISsaid, no one could doubt that after the extraordinary revelations now made by the Prime Minister it was a matter of great importance that they should report Progress. It was only fair that notice should be given to the Prime Minister that if no one else when the Committee was resumed asked what his intention was as to whether the Commission should be Royal or otherwise, on Thursday night, at all events, he (Mr. Lewis) would ask him whether the Government had made up their minds on the subject.
    MR. GLADSTONE: We have no intention whatever of making up our minds on the subject. It is a question which we have to examine carefully, whether we can obtain information which we think will be useful without authority—whether we can or cannot obtain information which would be worth having as a preliminary measure.
    SIR ROBERT PEEL: I understood the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister to say, in answer to the noble Lord the Member for Woodstock (Lord Randolph Churchill), that the Government had already been considering the desirability of appointing a Royal Commission. Does the right hon. Gentleman adhere to that assertion? It is impossible for us to deal with it at the present moment.
    Question put, and agreed, to.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Thursday.

  TRAMWAYS AND PUBLIC COMPANIES (IRELAND) ACT (1883) AMENDMENT BILL.— [BILL 231.]
  (Colonel Colthurst, Mr. Findlater, Mr. Parnell, Mr. Deasy, Mr. Sheil, Mr. Sham.)
  TRAMWAYS AND PUBLIC COMPANIES (IRELAND) ACT (1883) AMENDMENT BILL.— [BILL 231.]

    SECOND READING.
    Order for Second Reading read.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Colonel Colthurst.)
    MR. BIGGARwas proceeding to object, when—
    It being ten minutes before Seven of the clock, the Debate stood adjourned till this day.
    The House suspended its Sitting at five minutes before Seven of the clock.
    The House resumed its Sitting at Nine of the clock.

MOTIONS.

  PARLIAMENT — BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE—(PROCEDURE ON WEDNESDAYS).—RESOLUTION.
  MR. STEVENSONsaid, he rose to call attention to the Rules of Procedure on Wednesdays with respect to Bills in charge of private Members, and to move a Resolution for their amendment. He would not seek to disturb the admirable arrangement which secured to the House and the officials a free evening by the Rule which prevented the House sitting after 6 o'clock on Wednesday. But the Rule had been turned to a purpose never intended, and had been made the means of deliberately wasting the hours of the afternoon. He felt amply justified, therefore, in proposing some remedy for the grievance of "talking out" Bills. He was at a loss to understand how hon. Members could reconcile this practice with the honour and dignity of the illustrious Assembly of which they were Members. It was a great privilege, by the right of a seat in the House, to occupy the precious time of the House by speech which should never be used inconsistently with the dignity of the House and the welfare of the nation. This practice prevented both sides being properly represented in debate, the friends of a measure abstaining from speaking in its support, and the character of the debates was degraded by speeches made to waste time, and not addressed to the judgment and intelligence of the House. Private Members had large privileges on Tuesdays and Fridays of initiating debates; but Wednesday was their day for legislation. The stages of Bills on that day were known long beforehand; Members came down anxious to vote, and the public desired outside to learn the opinion of the House, and the greatest vexation and disappointment resulted from the action of one or two Members. People outside could not understand it. They said—Why not alter the Rules of the House? Any Town Council would be laughed at that wasted a whole afternoon, and did

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  not finish the first Business on the Agenda Paper. By the Resolution he proposed, the first Order on Wednesday, or any Order coming on before 2 o'clock, would be decided on at 5 o'clock—that was, after at least three hours' discussion. The House might carry the Previous Question, might adjourn the debate, might accept an Amendment, but would, somehow or other, settle the question. The Previous Question met the cases in which "talking out" was defended as a means of getting rid of a question not ripe for legislation; but talking out was the clumsiest possible method. The House must not think that the Resolution, would be often acted on. Its existence would take away the temptation to waste time. The debates would be real and business-like; the speeches would be brief and pointed; and although the Rule would be applicable to only the earliest Orders on the Paper, time would be left for useful discussion on the succeeding Orders. He could assure the House of the deep anxiety felt by their constituents on this question of the waste of the time of the House. The people were taking a deep interest in the proceedings of Parliament, and in the increasingly pressing social questions of the day; and he asked the House by adopting the Resolution to rescue itself from the impotence and incapacity from which it suffered. The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving the Resolution which stood in his name.
  MR. HASTINGS, in seconding the Resolution, said, that the function entrusted to the House by the people was to consider and decide on the legislative proposals submitted to it; but under existing arrangements this was often impossible. The process that went on from Wednesday to Wednesday was not to meet a Bill with fair arguments, but to go to such lengths of speech that it was impossible to come to a conclusion within a reasonable time. No proceedings more damaging to the reputation of the House could be adopted. The legislative Business of the House could only be dealt with in the future by a continuance of the practice of Morning Sittings; and if the habit of talking Bills out increased, the Business of the House would be greatly impeded. He could conceive no better mode of closing a debate than that of fixing a particular time. If the closing of a discussion was
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  to depend upon the vote of the majority, there would always be a feeling among the minority that they were badly used; but it would be impossible that that fooling should arise if the debate closed at a time fixed by the House. By taking this step they could apply a remedy to an. acknowledged evil, and at the same time would show the country they were in earnest in their resolve to further legislation. He begged to second the Resolution.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That on Wednesdays, if the Debate on the first Order of the Day, or any Order that has been reached by Two o'clock (not being a proceeding in Committee, nor on the Consideration of a Bill as amended, nor on the Consideration of Lords Amendments) be continued until Five o'clock, Mr. Speaker shall put the Question then under discussion; and, if the Previous Question, or a Motion of Adjournment, or an Amendment to the Main Question shall have been moved, they shall be severally put, and afterwards the Main Question shall be put without further Debate."—(Mr. Stevenson.)
  MR. WARTONsaid, that a great agitation was now on foot as to private Members' Bills; but he would remind the House that the first duty of Parliament was to attend to the Estimates, and all this cry about legislation arose from personal vanity on the part of Members and a desire to make themselves conspicuous. In the short time he had been a Member of the House he regretted to have seen that first duty of Parliament subordinated first to Government and then to private Members' legislation. Last year 19 of the Army Votes were taken on the last Saturday of the Session, and the Indian Budget was not taken till quite late; and he put it to private Members opposite whether they considered their own precious little Bills of more importance than the Army and Navy and the great Indian Empire? ["Question!"] That was the Question, and he contended that hon. Members who were under the impression that to push forward their own paltry little Bills was of more importance than such Business as he had mentioned were utterly mistaken as to their most elementary duties. Almost invariably on Wednesdays five or six Private Bills were on the Paper, and yet the interest taken in them was measured by the fact that Mr. Speaker had to wait for a time, varying from 20 to 50 minutes, before he could take the Chair. He did not

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  scruple to say that the Bills brought forward by private Members were usually utter trash. For instance, 14 or 15 county Bills had been brought in in regard to temperance. If the Members who brought them in cared twopence for the principle, they would coalesce in some practical measure. Then, again, the drafting of the Bills was disgraceful, and the grammar wretched; and that defect was even apparent in the terms of the Resolution submitted to the House by the hon. Member opposite—so much so that it was difficult to understand what on earth he meant. There was a spirit of tyranny abroad. The majority wanted to ram their opinions down the throats of the minority. The real truth was that Wednesday after Wednesday a succession of absurd measures were brought forward either from a motive of personal vanity or tyranny. It was the privilege of the majority, when a question came to the vote, to prevail; and it was the privilege of the minority, by every fair means provided by the Rules of the House, to defeat propositions which they did not approve. He objected to every kind of clôture as an infraction of the fair Rules of the Parliamentary game. The hon. Member assumed that a person rising late in the debate had no arguments to bring forward. But it often happened that a man who had listened to the whole debate and caught all its lights and shades would be able to make a very valuable contribution to the discussion. A really practical clôture would be the shortening of speeches. He had noticed that Liberal Members repeated the same arguments over and over, and that they could not speak without notes and water. But if a man could not speak without notes, it was plain that he knew very little about his subject. The most effectual way to shorten speeches would be to banish notes and water.
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid, that this was not a Motion upon which the Government could press the House to take any particular course. The Mover of the Motion had done him the favour of communicating with him, and he had looked at the matter as impartially as he could. With respect to procedure in general, when proposals had been made for introducing particular Amendments, or what were believed to be Amendments,
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  he had adopted the conclusion that it was not expedient to open the question except as a whole, and with the opportunity of surveying the entire field. But, in arriving at that conclusion, he was governed by the consideration that the Government were supposed to have a special interest in the matter. There was, however, something peculiar in this case; because as the Motion was framed, as well as the Amendment of the hon. Member for Monaghan (Mr. Healy), the Government had no interest in the subject. It was an isolated Motion, touching an isolated portion of the Business of the House—namely, the legislative work of private Members. Now, the great bulk of the work of private Members was not done on Bills, but on Motions and Amendments in Supply. He could not but admit, however, that the case of Wednesday legislation was a very pressing one. Whereas the Business of the Government was carried forward under enormous difficulties, and only a small portion of that which, perhaps, the country might desire was realized in each Session, independent Members had reached a stage in which nothing at all was done. Therefore, his hon. Friend was justified in raising the question. There was only one point about which he entertained a doubt, and that was making it a Standing Order. He thought it would be better to adopt it as an experiment during the rest of the Session. He did think, however, that his hon. Friend had made out his case—that the difficulties attending private legislation were now so severe and hostile as to require special treatment. He did not see anything objectionable in the mode of relief his hon. Friend proposed, which, while it would allow a reasonable time for the discussion of the Order of the Day, would have a considerable effect in preventing the talking out of Bills which had been fortunate enough to secure a favourable position on the Wednesday list. The first question was whether there was a case for doing anything, and to that he could not but answer that there was. The second question was whether it was right on the part of the Government to recommend the House to look favourably on private Members endeavouring to promote legislation apart from the general question in which the Government might have a special interest? To that ques-

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  tion he would answer that he thought it was right. The third question was whether the mode proposed by his hon. Friend was reasonable and moderate? His hon. Friend shut out certain stages from the operation of his proposal, such as proceedings in Committee and on Report, and Bills as amended coming from the Lords, the stopping of which at the hour named would not be reasonable; and he applied his remedy to stages where lengthened discussion and the opposition of a few might be so used with regard to Private Bills as to prevent their second reading being disposed of, or the Motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair, or the third reading. That also he considered reasonable. Therefore, as far as the general Motion of his hon. Friend was concerned, the Government concurred in it, and wished to allow it a fair trial. But with regard to the general question of procedure, the more the time drew near when he should have a less personal interest in the matter the more was he convinced that it would be necessary for the House to take effectual measures, not of a coercive kind—he believed that very little could be done by coercive means—for making its procedure more effective. His hon. Friend intended to except Government Bills. The first observation it occurred to him to make on that point was that Government Bills rarely appeared on the Order Book on Wednesday. To attempt to make Government Bills take priority on Wednesday would be so justly and universally resented that it could not be done. But towards the close of the Session the three or four last Wednesdays were generally placed at the disposal of the Government. That was at a time when it was felt to be for the general convenience, and when private Members were in despair of pushing on their Bills, and saw that nothing could be done by their individual and unaided exertions. If Wednesdays were to be given to the Government, it was better it should be done at the end of the Session, when the Prorogation was near, and when the passing of measures desired by the Government might, on the last Wednesday or two, be arrested by one or two Gentlemen watching the hand of the clock. He thought it better on the whole, then, that Government Bills should not be included in the Motion. He could not agree with the
  664
  hon. and learned Member for Bridport that no good was to be done by private Members attempting legislation. In former times a great deal had been done by private Members. But the difficulties which now fell so severely on the Government fell still more severely on private Members; and, therefore, the Government were inclined to look with a favourable and friendly eye upon any proposition like that of his hon. Friend, which appeared in itself well considered, moderate in its operation, founded on a real necessity, and which he believed his hon. Friend was ready to adopt as an experiment, so that if the House thought it did not work satisfactorily they might retrace their steps.
  MR. ANDERSONsaid, he thought his Friend ought to be very much satisfied with the speech of the Prime Minister. They were glad that the right hon. Gentleman had assented to the proposal, and the only thing he did not quite like was the desire of the right hon. Gentleman to confine the Rule to the present Session. Private Members were placed under extreme difficulties, and if this proposal were only passed for the present it would lapse at the end; and his hon. Friend would, at the beginning of next Session, have to go through the whole process of balloting for Tuesday after Tuesday, and perhaps might never get an opportunity of bringing it forward again. For his part, he would like to see the Resolution made a Standing Order, or, if not, the Rule should at least last for one Session beyond the present, in order to give it a fair trial. The Prime Minister had not alluded to other Amendments on the Paper; but, perhaps, as he was about to move one, the right hon. Gentleman would offer some remarks upon it. He agreed with one remark that fell from the hon. and learned Member for Bridport (Mr. Warton), who said there ought to be some limit to the length of speeches. That was a matter he had advocated for the last dozen years in that House, and he believed that the House had arrived at the opinion of the necessity for it. But the hon. and learned Member for Bridport spoke of other things, for he alluded to the lateness of the hour at which they got a House on Wednesday. Considering the well-known efforts made by the hon. and learned Member to prevent his Friends getting into the

  665
  House on Wednesday at 12 o'clock, he wondered he was not ashamed to allude to the subject at all. Then the hon. and learned Member read them a lecture, and urged them to go in for Supply on all occasions; but he must point out to the hon. and learned Member that it was not the practice to discuss Supply on Wednesdays. The hon. and learned Member also said that all Private Bills were brought in from personal vanity. The hon. and learned Member occasionally brought in Private Bills himself; and therefore, when he said they were brought in out of personal vanity the hon. and learned Gentleman must be judging other people by himself. [Mr. WARTON: Quite so.] He (Mr. Anderson) denied that private Members' Bills were brought in from any such motive. He was surprised to hear the hon. and learned Member for Bridport oppose the proposal, because it would be a benefit to him in bringing in his Bill with regard to patent medicines; therefore the hon. and learned Member was standing in his own light. Undoubtedly, the great sin—perhaps the worst institution of the House—was that of talking out. There was talking out on Wednesday to reach a quarter to 6, again on Morning Sittings there was talking out to reach 10 minutes to 7, and on every night in the week but Wednesday to reach half-past 12. All this gave rise to a lot of useless talk, much of it not really meant for the subject under discussion, but for no other purpose than to prevent some subsequent Bill being proceeded with. Under these circumstances, he thought they ought to be obliged to his hon. Friend for attempting to deal with the matter, though he only touched one point, that of Wednesday; and if they got that they would have gained a very great step, and possibly some other day they might make a further step. He had an Amendment to move to the Resolution, but in no sense a hostile one, but really to complete the Resolution, His proposal was in substance passed through one of the most important Committees of the House that ever sat upon the question of the Business of the House—namely, the Committee of 1871. A Resolution identical with his, though not confined to Wednesday, was proposed by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board, and was carried
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  unanimously by that Committee. The object of the Amendment was to give facilities for the passing, not of unknown Bills, but of Bills which the House had already stamped with its approval by reading them a second time. It did not attempt to facilitate the position of second readings; on the contrary, it made it far more difficult to pass them through that stage, because after the 1st of June it gave preference to those Bills on which the House had stamped its approval. An hon. Member opposite proposed another Amendment to widen the scope of his Amendment, giving place to those that had passed through "another place." He did not think they need care what was done in another branch of the Legislature—his object was to facilitate the passing of the Bills of this House. He would like to tell the hon. Member how his Amendment would work if adopted in addition to the one he (Mr. Anderson) proposed. For instance, if he, at the commencement of a Session, was unsuccessful in the ballot in getting a good place for a second reading, he should withdraw the Bill and take it along the corridor, and ask some noble Lord to introduce it. If it passed the other House, he would put it down for the first Wednesday in June, when it would take precedence of all other Bills, even those that had been read a second time. Even in the month of May it might be possible to pass a Bill through the other House, and then obtain precedence for it in this House on the first Wednesday of June and on subsequent Wednesdays over all the Bills to which this House had already given much labour, if the Amendment of the hon. Member opposite were adopted. He did not believe the House would like that position of affairs; and he thought it was an abundant reason for rejecting the Amendment proposed by the hon. Member. There was no other point that he need notice; and he would therefore move to add to the Resolution of his hon. Friend the following:—
  "When several Bills (other than Government Bills) which have passed different stages have been appointed for the same Wednesday, on and after the 1st day of June they shall he arranged on the Paper in the following order:—1. Consideration of Lords' Amendments. 2. Third Readings. 3. Consideration of Bills as amended in Committee. 4. Bills in Committee. 5. Bills standing for Committee. 6. Second Readings."
  MR. SPEAKERsuggested that it would be more convenient if the Resolution of the hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Stevenson) were first disposed of, as that course would prevent complication; and if the Resolution were agreed to, the Amendment of the hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Anderson) could then be moved as an addition when the Amendment was put as a substantive Motion.
  MR. BERESFORD HOPEsaid, he approached this question with an impartial mind, for he sometimes supported and sometimes opposed Wednesday Bills. He sympathized with the good intentions of the hon. Member; but he believed the matter was a graver one than might be assumed from the simple words of the Resolution. The framer of this Resolution had unconsciously invented a new form of talking out an important measure, by holding out to Members an inducement to keep up a discussion upon any trifling Bill which happened to precede it. It would also make the House of Commons more of a debating society on Wednesday afternoons than ever. Wednesday Bills were most generally only Bills in their form; but, in reality, only Resolutions cast into that shape to show what they looked like. They were germ Bills, which it might often be very desirable should be discussed, while it was exceedingly undesirable to force the House to a premature decision. It would often be equally undesirable to cut short a discussion which might be extremely useful and interesting in threshing out a question, and to invent a new and arbitrary clôture, which would not advance useful legislation, and would burden the Division Lists with a great deal more rubbish than they at present contained. He objected to any Member who had bestowed an essay on the House in support of any particular crotchet having the power, before the subject was fully discussed, of pressing the question to a Division, and thereby bringing about a sterile and ridiculous result. [Mr. COURTNEY interrupted, pointing out the alternative of the Previous Question.] He repudiated the suggestion. Nobody would be hoodwinked by a technicality like that, as a decision on the Previous Question would be taken as one on the matter itself. The Prime Minister had agreed to accept this proposal as
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  an experiment, which was to last for the present Session only; but he protested against making an experiment in fads. They had already quite enough of crude and premature action in that House, and he hoped there would be exhibited that night a sufficient amount of good sound common sense to secure the rejection of the hon. Member's insane proposal.
  MR. EDWARD CLARKEsaid, that since the short speech, and the equally short visit, of the Prime Minister, this discussion had lost all interest. The right hon. Gentleman had said that the Mover of the Resolution had made out his case, although the right hon. Gentleman did not happen to have heard the hon. Member's speech. The right hon. Gentleman, however, had said that he would not consent to the Resolution being carried as a Standing Order, but merely assented to it being tried as an experiment for the rest of the present Session.
  MR. COURTNEYsaid, he was anxious that there should be no mistake upon this point. It was true that the right hon. Gentleman had announced that he could only assent to this proposal on the understanding that it should endure for the present Session only; but, on reconsideration, he was willing that it should remain in force until the end of next Session.
  MR. EDWARD CLARKEsaid, that that was the most extraordinary statement that he had ever heard from the Government Benches. The House was asked to accept an assurance on behalf of the Prime Minister directly contrary to the words that had been used a short time ago by the right hon. Gentleman himself. The Resolution would only apply to seven Wednesdays during the remainder of the Session. He did not admire the practice of talking out Bills. It not only interfered with the Business of the House, but it was often a great tactical mistake. It was not only those who were opposed to the Bill who were anxious to have it talked out. Certainly, the course of Parliamentary proceedings would be more straightforward if they always took a Division instead of talking out a Bill. But this did not dispose of the question, for this Motion would place an arbitrary limit on the length of a debate; and he believed that of all methods of shortening debates

  669
  the arbitrary limitation of the length of a debate was the clumsiest and worst. They could not say who should occupy the three or four hours that were to be allowed; and it might be that the supporters of the measure might occupy it all to themselves, and when the Bill was rejected or carried there would have been no statement of the arguments against it. A short time ago a Minister of the Crown occupied three hours and three-quarters in one speech. In the same way, it would be in the power of the Mover and Seconder to occupy all the time until 5 o'clock, and then insist on a Division being taken. The Secretary to the Treasury said the Previous Question might be moved. No doubt it could. But those who voted for the Previous Question thereby ranged themselves as opponents of the Bill. This proposal was evidently directed against the full and free discussion, and absolute threshing out, of Bills connected with the sale of intoxicating liquors on Sundays, which were frequently presented to the Notice of the House on Wednesdays. He himself had more than once proposed that Bills should be carried on from one Session to the other; but the course now suggested would result in the selection by accident of a few measures which should inevitably receive the decision of the House. The proposal before the House meant the selection in a most ridiculous way of what might be the very worst measures before the House, and which would have this exceptional advantage. True, the proposal, as it had been limited by the Prime Minister, was a very trivial matter; but, trivial as it was, he believed it would be a mischievous example, and he would therefore vote against it.
  LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILLsaid, he had been amused at the speech of the hon. and learned Member, for he had hitherto been so much in favour of rapid legislation that he had brought forward a proposal that Bills should be carried over from one Session to another. The hon. and learned Member, however, was so enamoured of his own proposal that he looked with jealousy on any rival proposal for securing the same object, and which he (Lord Randolph Churchill) ventured to say secured that object in a much better way than the proposal of the hon. and learned Member for Ply-
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  mouth. The proposal before the House was undoubtedly intended to enable the House to come to a decision on Bills submitted by private Members, and from his experience of the House he was not in the least opposed to the proposal. He thought that if some Resolution of this kind were not adopted they would run the risk of having all the time of private Members monopolized by the Government. Bills were brought forward on Wednesdays which were of great interest, not from a Party point of view, but socially and nationally; and a small clique in the interests of small classes were enabled, by one manoeuvre or another, to prevent the House coming to a decision, and the day was completely and entirely wasted. He was very much disposed to doubt the utility of a debate which did not wind up with a Division. This was not a bad opportunity to allude to the proceedings which marked Wednesdays in the Commons. He had seen Mr. Speaker sitting in the Chair at the Table for three-quarters of an hour, while Members refused to come in and make a House. He had also seen the most extraordinary artifices used by Members in the Lobby to dissuade Members from coming in. The time had come when antics and manœuvres of that kind should be put a stop to, for they were a disgrace to the House. Another reason why he thought the House should consider the Resolution with favour was, that in spite of the alterations which the Government had made in the procedure of the House, the time and rights of private Members were getting more and more limited. Another reason was that private Members always seemed to think it necessary to occupy an hour of the time of the House, though that night appeared to have been a remarkable exception. He had no doubt that if a Member knew that the House was to come to a decision at 5 o'clock he would recollect that other Members had something to say, and would endeavour to compress his remarks. He had one fault to find with the words of the Motion — "When a debate has been continued until 5 o'clock." He did not see the use of putting in that particular hour, because it was quite clear that if a Division were taken, at 5 o'clock, the Division taking something like a quarter of an hour, no time whatever would be left for

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  other Business, except practically unopposed Business. It seemed to him that it would be better to make the hour 5.45 instead of 5. This would, perhaps, lead to large reforms in the hours of the House, and it would be much better if they could come to some agreement that the House should rise at a certain hour; but that before doing so, where the opinion of the House was strongly in favour of coming to a decision, it should not be put in the power of a private Member to prevent the House so coming to a decision. That, he believed, would be a most beneficial reform. He looked forward to the time when the House would perceive the folly of the proceedings which regulated the time at which it met now, and to which it sat, and that it would adopt a more rational proceeding, when it would be the rule for the House to meet regularly at 2 o'clock and rise at a definite hour. He would be glad to see the House adopt the Resolution, because it would show that they were not bound by an iron band to those proceedings which had been in force for a long time past; but that the Business of the House would be carried out in a manner which would render them less liable to the criticism and ridicule of the public. On those grounds he was in favour of the proposal of the hon. Member, and was very glad to hear that it met with the approval of the Government.
  MR. W. FOWLERsaid, he would certainly vote in favour of the Resolution. Any hon. Member who now brought forward a Bill on a Wednesday was next door to an idiot, as it was absolutely ridiculous now for a Member to take the trouble to bring in a Bill. As to the proposal of the noble Lord, he would suggest that when a quarter to 6 came they should have the Division, whether on the Main or on the Previous Question, and should go on dividing until the matter was exhausted. This would avoid the waste of time involved in dividing at 5 o'clock. He agreed with the remark of the noble Lord that the present conduct of Business in the House on Wednesdays made them ridiculous. They were constantly having long discussions without arriving at any decisions, and then the House rose with great regret that, through the freak of some hon. Member, no decision could be come to. He thought this abuse of the
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  forms of the House should be stopped without delay.
  MR. A. F. EGERTONsaid, he thought the difficulty as to the delay in making a House on Wednesdays could be got over easily by providing that the House should be made by Commission. When a House was made by Commission, the Speaker in the Chair, and even one or two Members, constituted "a House." If that were agreed to there was not the slightest doubt that Members interested in a Bill would come down and form a respectable audience. As to the Motion before the House, he should feel it to be his duty to record his vote against it. He regarded it as the most odious form of the clôture. It would oblige the House to divide on a Bill and come to a decision upon it whether it desired to do so or not, whilst other Bills of far greater importance were left unconsidered. He could not approve of such a childish idea.
  SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOTsaid, he strongly deprecated any such alteration in the Rules of the House on the mere Motion of a private Member. He agreed that the Resolution was the clôture in its most objectionable form; it was, in fact, regularly gagging the House of Commons, and he protested against it. If they were to have this clôture on Wednesdays, why not on Tuesdays and Fridays? ["Hear, hear!"] He regretted to hear his right hon. Friend the Member for North Devon cheer. He thought he was too old a bird to be caught in this way; but apparently he was prepared to follow the Prime Minister, whether the proposal was in the interests of the country or not. It was, no doubt, very easy for hon. Gentlemen opposite, who did not care what happened—["Oh, oh!"]—to support this proposal. ["Oh!"] Well, he was sorry to say he had come to the conclusion that many Gentlemen sacrificed their opinions for their Party instead of looking after the best interests of the country, and it had even been stated that they voted black was white in the interest of the Government. He passed this by however, and entered his earnest protest against the Resolution.
  MR. CHAPLINsaid, that he was sorry he could not agree with the noble Lord the Member for Woodstock (Lord Randolph Churchill) upon this subject. As to the statement of the hon. Member

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  for Cambridge (Mr. W. Fowler) that they scarcely ever came to a decision on Wednesdays, he recollected in the last three Parliaments the House coming to many important decisions on Wednesdays. It was by no means a trifling alteration in the procedure of the House that was proposed by this Resolution, for it meant that after four hours' discussion, no matter how important the subject, the House must on a Wednesday come to a decision upon it, whether it was adequately discussed or not. As he understood the Resolution, they were to have on Wednesdays a 6 o'clock clôture and at Morning Sittings for Government Business a 7 o'clock clôture. What was the general character of the questions which were very often raised by private Members on Wednesdays? He had heard it stated over and over again in the House that private Members were almost invariably the pioneers of the most important questions which came up for discussion. The difficulties of private Members in carrying Bills to a conclusion in that House were exceedingly great. Everybody knew that the main object which they had in view in introducing Bills was to obtain full and ample discussion upon the question with which the House dealt, and to educate the people in the country who were interested in those questions. There was hardly a private Member who was sanguine enough to suppose that by introducing a Bill which was seriously opposed he would be able to carry it into law in one Session. But although he knew he had no chance of carrying his Bill in one Session, he was perfectly aware of the fact that a full discussion upon it on a Wednesday afternoon would enable him or some other Member on a future day to pass the Bill into law. The Resolution now before the House, however, would destroy the opportunities which Members now had of passing Bills. If the principle of the Resolution held good and was worth anything at all, it could not possibly be limited to Wednesdays. If it was good for anything it ought to be applied to all their proceedings. He protested against distinctions being made between the rights of private Members and the rights of Members of the Government. Nothing could be more unconstitutional than such distinctions. As long as he was a Member of the House of Commons
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  he should do his best to uphold the privileges of private Members. It was because he saw that propositions of this nature would injuriously affect the independence of private Members that he should oppose the Resolution, which he believed was framed on inadequate and insufficient grounds.
  MR. COURTNEYsaid, he had always been jealous of alterations of this kind; but he had said on more than one occasion that with different manners they were compelled to adopt different laws. Things were not now as they used to be. After a long discussion on a Wednesday afternoon, instead of taking a Division as a matter of course, a Member got up at a quarter to 6 o'clock to speak, and the consequence was the question of necessity stood adjourned. Several hon. Members seemed to think that the Resolution, if passed, would compel the House to come to a decision on any subject before a full and ample discussion had taken place upon it. The power of withholding a decision upon the Main Question was amply reserved. This proposal did not compel a Division to be taken on the Main Question if the House of Commons was averse from pronouncing an opinion upon it. It was competent for any hon. Member to move the Previous Question or the Adjournment of the Debate; and if it was thought that the question had not been sufficiently discussed, the House would carry the Motion for the Adjournment of the Debate. On the other hand, if the question was one which, in the opinion of the House, was not ripe for decision on account of its novelty or any other cause, and if the House thought that no opinion could be pronounced upon it, then the perfectly fair and legitimate Parliamentary way of meeting the question was to move the Previous Question, which, no doubt, would be supported. He might cite, as an instance in point, the Bill of the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. Broadhurst) dealing with leases. That was a Bill which raised questions of great novelty and importance; and he thought he did not misconstrue the opinions entertained by a large number of Members, that a Bill proposing a remedy for the evils of leasehold tenure was not one to be considered and dealt with off-hand. The whole point really was as to whether on Wednesday afternoons, on a question

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  which involved important considerations submitted to the House, and which had been discussed for at least three hours, they were taking a rash step in saying that at the end of three hours the opinion of the House should be taken as to the Question of Adjournment, or whether a decision should be taken on the Main Question. He thought the experiment was one of an extremely moderate character. The noble Lord the Member for Woodstock (Lord Randolph Churchill) asked why 5 o'clock was proposed as the hour when the decision was to betaken, and not a later hour? Although something might be said in favour of that view, he pointed out that it might be necessary to take three Divisions in a full House before the Main Question was decided upon; and in that case, by adopting 5.45 as the hour, it would stultify the object which the hon. Member for Shields (Mr. Stevenson) had in view in proposing this Motion for the adoption of the House. In reference to the remarks of the Prime Minister, that he objected to this proposal being made a Standing Order of the House, and suggesting that it should be tried as an experiment for this Session only, the hon. and learned Member for Plymouth (Mr. E. Clarke) had pointed out, with his usual acuteness, that the Government would get the benefit of the Motion during the remainder of the present Session. On reflection, however, the Government had suggested that the Order should be made to run to the end of next Session.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: I observe that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Monaghan (Mr. Healy) has on the Paper an Amendment to exclude the case of Government Bills; but I do not know whether it will be moved, inasmuch as it would make a serious difference in the Resolution before the House. The time is not far distant when the Government will ask for Wednesdays for their own purposes; and if they have this Rule as a Standing Order, it will operate very much in favour of their Business. They will always make sure of having Divisions upon their own matters after a very limited debate. The hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury has said that, after all, there need be no fear that injustice will be done, or that debates will be unfairly curtailed. That may be so; but I can-
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  not help thinking that the hon. Gentleman speaks from the side of the majority, and that we are answering from the side of the minority; and there is all the difference on a question of this kind between speaking on the side of the majority and speaking on the side of the minority that there is between the man who holds the cart-whip and the man who receives the lash at the other end. It may be true that if the majority are not satisfied that the matter has been fully discussed, they may think it fair that an opportunity should be given for the further consideration of it. That may be so; but it may often happen, on the other hand, that the majority are determined to overbear the minority, and the minority would under this Resolution in that case be shut out from the opportunity of making a full statement of the case they wish to submit. There is great force in what was said by the hon. Member for Mid Lincolnshire (Mr. Chaplin) just now. He pointed out that these Private Bills that are brought forward on Wednesdays are, to a great extent, pioneers of other legislation; and, no doubt, a great many questions are raised in Bills brought forward by private Members which tend more to raise such discussions than bring the legislation to bear upon the questions with which they deal. It would be frequently a very great misfortune if the discussions raised on those Bills of private Members were limited to three hours, and no opportunity were given for their full examination. They are not brought forward on the responsibility of the Government, and after full examination by Her Majesty's Ministers. They are very often in the nature of tentative measures. Very often they are brought forward with insufficient preparation, only for the purpose of discussion, and the discussions that take place are very valuable as preparing the way for further discussion; but if you have this provision, you will constantly find matters arising which should be discussed for more than three hours, but which will have to be concluded at the end of the period. We must take the matter at its maximum. If the discussion begins at 2 o'clock it must close at 5; and at the latter hour, not only is the Question of Adjournment or the Previous Question to be put, but, when that is disposed of, the Main Question is

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  to be put without debate. That is a very strong proceeding, and one which the House will feel to be of very doubtful policy even in respect of private Members' Bills. But we cannot forget that if we once admit this principle, and say that after a certain number of hours' debate there is to be an absolute clôture in regard to Bills of private Members, we shall very soon have the same proposal made with regard to other Business; and I really do not see upon what principle then you will be able to refuse it. If you admit it in the case of Wednesdays, I do not see how you are to refuse it in the case of Thursdays, or any other day. Therefore, if the time is limited—which is a very serious question—in the one case, so also will it be in the other case. I quite agree with my noble Friend (Lord Randolph Churchill) that there is a great deal of waste of time on Wednesdays, and I think it would be possible to curtail the time that is so wasted; but I think the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Wigan (Mr. A. Egerton) went in that direction, and very properly. He suggested that there should be some Rule adopted by which the opening of Business on Wednesdays should take place without waiting an indefinite time till a quorum is obtained—that we should begin Business just as we do when a Royal Commission is announced. If such a Rule were adopted, I have no doubt it would save a great deal of time at the beginning of the Sitting. I must say that I look with very considerable alarm at this introduction of the principle of absolute closure, and I am bound to say that it is a very formidable proposal when we are told that this should be made a Standing Order. If this is done it should only be as an experiment.
  MR. COURTNEY: I think the right hon. Baronet has misunderstood me. What I said was, that the Rule should not be a Standing Order, but should be in force until the end of next Session.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: That, of course, would make the arrangement less objectionable than I understood; but in any case I think we should be setting a dangerous precedent, and one which ought not to be set without grave consideration. I really very much doubt whether, by the adoption of this Rule, we shall not be doing evil instead of good, and throwing back
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  the whole question of the arrangement of our debates.
  MR. PULESTONsaid, it seemed to him that they all concurred in this, that a good deal of difficulty arose out of the waste of time which took place on Wednesdays. There was also a waste of time on other days; and it had been argued that if this Rule were adopted for Wednesdays it certainly ought also to be adopted for Morning Sittings. There was no answering the argument, that they sat here frequently from 4 to 4.30 doing nothing on ordinary days, and that in this and many other ways valuable time was wasted; and he himself had ventured to make a proposal to the House, when they had an Autumn Session to discuss their Rules, to the effect that they should have no questions whatever on Government nights, except such as the Speaker might declare to be urgent, giving the whole of the two Government nights to the Government, and in that way to release the other days to the use of private Members. If a simple Rule like that were adopted it would relegate Wednesdays to its proper place, and it would be thoroughly understood that hon. Members would then have this time afforded them for the ventilation of grievances, and for the passing of private measures of great importance. The hon. Member the Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Courtney) had rather surprised him when he said that if, when the proposed Rule came into operation on the Wednesday, they had not had sufficient discussion, all they would have to do would be to move the Previous Question or the Adjournment of the Debate. Every Member of the House knew perfectly well that, however honest might be his desire to support the measure before the House, under such circumstances, if things went on as at present, such a proposal as that of moving the adjournment of the debate would be certain to be ascribed to a wish to oppose or obstruct the passing of the Bill. He felt very much disposed, then, to give effect to what the hon. Member suggested by now moving the adjournment of the debate. After a long and exhaustive series of debates they passed the clôture in an Autumn Session. But it had never since been heard of. Neither he nor anybody else had heard of it. Surely it would be better that this should

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  be put in force by the Speaker, than that they should be called on to come there and pass by a sort of snap judgment a clôture of a very intensified form. He felt convinced that that could hardly be the intention of hon. Members on the other side of the House, notwithstanding the remarks of the Prime Minister. He was disposed to give an opportunity to the House to think a little more on the question; and, therefore, he would move the adjournment of the debate.
  Motion made, and Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned." —(Mr. Puleston.)
  The House divided:—Ayes 115; Noes 92: Majority 23. — (Div. List, No. 122.)
  Debate adjourned till To-morrow.

  CHARGES AGAINST IRISH OFFICIALS —MR. FRENCH, &c.

    MOTION FOR A SELECT COMMITTEE.
    MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid, he had to move the following Resolution: —
    "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the conduct of the Government with regard to the criminal charges against James Ellis French, County Inspector Royal Irish Constabulary, Gustavus Cornwall, Secretary to the General Post Office, and George Bolton, Crown Solicitor."
    As would be seen from the terms of that Motion, he wished to bring under the attention of the House the conduct of the Government in regard to certain charges — not the charges themselves, or the merits of them, but to the conduct of the Government in respect of them. By the word "Government" he did not, of course, mean those individual Gentlemen who sat on the Front Bench opposite. It would readily be understood that he would shrink, as any other Member of the House would shrink, from entertaining for a moment the idea that, whatever might have been done by any subordinate, however highly placed, in the Post Office, the slightest stain could by any possibility attach to a character so noble and so pure as that of the right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster General (Mr. Fawcett); and although the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister was alive to the theory of the Constitution, that he was responsible for the administration of the country, yet, of course, his personal character was far above any stain
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    that could attach to any misconduct on the part of anyone under him; and as the Prime Minister was in relation to the whole of the Administration, so with the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant, who was responsible for the administration in Ireland. He (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) was very anxious to say this, because he remembered that four weeks ago, when he gave Notice of the Motion which he should have to submit to the House tonight, he observed the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary look up at him with an air of marked surprise. He (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) had felt that the surprise was due, not to the fact that this Motion had been placed upon the Paper, but to the fact that it was he who had given the Notice. He had often thought of that look since, and he appreciated it. He was anxious that the right hon. Gentleman should clearly understand that in placing this Motion on the Paper he did it without for one moment entertaining the notion that the right hon. Gentleman had done anything, or that he was capable of doing anything, unworthy of a Christian Gentleman; and on that point he trusted the right hon. Gentleman would be able easily to accept his assurances. He should conceive it as hard of him to believe of the right hon. Gentleman that he had done anything of the sort, as he trusted the right hon. Gentleman would find it hard to believe it of him. So with regard to the Lord Lieutenant, he was not actuated by any personal feeling towards him. He was opposed to the present Government, he believed, as bitterly as anyone in the House, but his political antagonism never prevented him from appreciating the personal characters of the men to whom he happened to be opposed. He knew nothing of the Lord Lieutenant. He did not even know that he should be able to recognize him if he saw him in the street. It would be impossible to deal properly and adequately with the question of the charges against these three individuals mentioned in his Motion for the reason that there were at this moment actions pending in the High Court in connection with two of them. Bolton and Cornwall had just commenced proceedings for libel against a weekly newspaper published in Ireland, of which all the House was aware. But for these pro-

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    ceedings it would be a perfectly simple matter to deal with the entire case. As they stood they were in the way of a full exposure of the situation; and, personally, he was very thankful that it was so, because, at least, he would be spared a great deal of mental distress, from which, out of a sense of his duty as a Representative of the people, and out of a sense of loyalty to his Colleagues, he trusted he should not have shrunk, but which would certainly have been one of the most painful experiences of his life. Well, the third individual mentioned—namely, French—likewise brought an action some time ago against the same newspaper, but that action had since been dismissed in default of prosecution, and he was not, therefore, precluded by the same considerations from referring to the case against that individual. He promised the House, however, that he would refer to it only so far as might be necessary for his present purpose. The charge against Cornwall was of a similar nature to that against French; but it rested on evidence which could be entirely separated, and the charge itself was quite different from that which was brought against Bolton. There was one charge, and only one charge, against Cornwall, so far as he was aware, and as it would form the subject-matter of a suit which was now sub judice in Dublin, it was not necessary or proper that he should in greater detail refer to it. Neither should he refer to the question at issue in the action now pending at the suit of Bolton. The Court of Justice would deal with both the one and the other. But he would, in the first place, ask leave to draw the attention of the House to matters entirely outside of, and altogether unconnected with, the present judicial proceedings — matters with which the Government were acquainted, and which affected the character of Bolton. There was a lady of the name of Hart, born in 1802. This lady was possessed of a large fortune. She married a Mr. Tivey, by whom she had three children. Mr. Tivey and the three children were all long since dead. In 1860, being already old, she married Mr. Brown, a solicitor. On her marriage with him there was a settlement, by the terms of which complete power over the whole of her property was reserved to herself. In connection with some differences as to the testamentary
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    disposition of her mother's property, she and her relations became estranged, and it was in connection with these differences that she first, in 1869, became acquainted with Bolton. He then held more than one appointment under the Government. He was a widower, with an income derived partly from private practice and partly from his Government appointments. Being again a widow, the old lady agreed to marry Bolton, and as one of the conditions of the marriage, she stipulated that her property should be settled on her as it had been settled by the marriage settlement when she was married to Brown. She entrusted to Bolton—and though he was a professional man, and ought to have known his duty in such a case, he accepted the commission—the carrying out of this arrangement. When the marriage was celebrated she believed that the arrangement had been carried out by a marriage settlement which he drew up; but when, some years afterwards, the matter came to be looked into, it was found that he had not carried out the agreement in that particular. There had been differences between her and her husband with regard to a female servant, and she left him. Subsequently, she instituted proceedings against him in respect of the marriage settlement. The case came to be tried before Mr. Justice Fry, and the learned Judge thought it right to send a letter to the Lord Chancellor of Ireland in relation to Bolton's part in this transaction. The right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant (Mr. Trevelyan) said, in reply to a Question put to him yesterday by the hon. Member for Waterford—
    "I am not informed of any ground for an allegation of fraud unless it be referable to transactions which occurred five years ago, and were investigated both by the late and the present Governments, and stated by both to furnish, no ground for action being taken against Mr. Bolton."
    That was partly correct, and partly incorrect and misleading. As a matter of fact, Bolton simply deceived the late Government. How did he do that? Well, he tried, first of all, to obtain from his wife a letter in which she was to make an admission that the whole affair had been amicably settled by an arrangement which was of the nature of a compromise. She could not conscientiously

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    do anything of the kind, and she refused, but she did write a letter which answered his purpose, because in its terms it was not absolutely at variance with the theory that the affair had been amicably settled. On the strength of that he maintained his position; but the real nature of the case was never known to the late Government. It became known to the present Government by the Judgment of the President of the Probate, Divorce, and Admiralty Division on the Probate suit M'Dermot and King v. Bolton, Bothmer intervening, tried in January and February of last year. He (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) had with him a report of the long Judgment, from which he would trouble the House with a few extracts—
    "The President explained to the jury what in the eye of the law amounted to undue influence, and pointed out that there was much documentary evidence in this case as to the friendship for very many years existing between Mrs. Bolton and Dr. M'Dermot. Dr. Tristram expressed great astonishment at the change of feeling on the part of Mrs. Bolton towards her husband; but it was difficult to see what ground for surprise there was in that circumstance. If the oath of the lady herself was to be believed, she had discovered that the marriage settlement prepared by her husband was a very different one from what she had supposed it to be; and, apart from the question of fraud, it was a most astonishing settlement. How any man, whether solicitor or no solicitor, could have thought otherwise it was not easy to see, for the effect of the settlement was to denude the woman of the great portion of her property. Now, it was the A B C of marriage settlements that a woman should have the first interest in the property which she brought into settlement. But in this case that rule was reversed, for the husband took the first life interest, and it was only when he died the lady herself could take a life interest in it. After that it would go to his children. By that settlement the Countess von Bothmer was entirely ousted. In her statement of claim Mrs. Bolton alleged that the terms of the settlement were contrary to her bargain, and that a large part of the property was left out of settlement, thus charging Mr. Bolton with fraud. Why, then, should we be surprised at a change in her feelings towards him? He had submitted to a decree. He said that he had done so in consequence of the conversation he had had with her, and of what she had said to his daughters; but there was only slender, shadowy evidence on that subject. What compromise had she agreed to? What more could have been gained by a plaintiff than she gained? And did Mr. Bolton rely on any terms or any compromise when he addressed her after the trial? No; he cast himself on her mercy, and she was merciful. He sent her a letter to adopt, which, had she signed it, would have been in direct contradiction to the charges she had made and
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    sworn to; but she behaved generously, and wrote the letter which had been read that day. In it she stated, what might well be believed, that her only object had been to secure the settlement of her property, and not to act harshly towards him.
    "The jury instantly found for the plaintiffs on all the issues."
    The whole case was a record of villainy, and of the charges brought against him the villain stood convicted. The Crown knew it; it could not help knowing it; all the world knew it; it was the talk of Dublin and the Irish Provinces. There were other delinquencies of this man that might be mentioned. There were other proceedings in other Courts, and other Judgments of other Courts, all of which went to make the responsibility of the Government greater; but he had no desire to make his remarks longer than were absolutely necessary, therefore he would pass from that part of the case. Now, the charge against French was, as he had said, of a different nature; compared with it the delinquencies of Bolton were venial. This man was a Director of the Detective Department of the Royal Irish Constabulary, with the rank of County Inspector. As such he had supreme control over the Detective Service at the command of the Government. His character and conduct were indicated and denounced by the newspaper against which he was subsequently forced to bring an action for libel. He (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) did not know that he could at this moment put his hands upon the first mention of French's name in the paper he had referred to; but, at any rate, early in October of last year there was a statement in this newspaper pointing him out. A paragraph was inserted which was generally understood to refer to him, and was still so understood, stating that a high official connected with the Detective Department at the Castle had been suspended, which would cause a great sensation. He (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) did not know whether that was absolutely correct; but other paragraphs appeared—whether in consequence of that or not he did not know—in other newspapers relating to this man. Well, there was a writ issued on the 12th of October, 1883. Appearance was entered by the defendant immediately. The plaintiff did not serve his statement of claim until the 23rd of November; the defence was delivered

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    almost immediately afterwards, when the plaintiff served a notice for particulars. Those particulars were furnished to him, whereupon he gave notice for further particulars on the 5th of February, 1884. The Court made an order that the defendant should give further particulars within 14 days, and on that occasion the defendant asked the Court to put the plaintiff under the terms of filing his reply, and serving his notice of trial; and he (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) had with him copies of the issues of the newspaper, which, if it were necessary, he could refer to, showing that throughout the defendant was anxious that the matter should come to trial, and pointing out that by various means the plaintiff, with delay after delay, was manifesting a totally different inclination. The defendant offered to give further particulars immediately the plaintiff was put under terms with regard to notice of trial. The Court gave the plaintiff an extension of time for the delivery of his reply before the further particulars had been delivered. He might mention that, at the time this order was made, the plaintiff's time for delivering the reply had expired; but the particulars of the plaintiff's claim were furnished, giving date and occasion, and a notice of each offence, specifying these things as briefly as possible—still these statements, condensed as they were, occupied 18 pages of paper. On the 29th February of this year the plaintiff delivered his reply and joined issue. No notice of trial was given, and he did absolutely nothing for six weeks. Accordingly, on the 14th April, having allowed February and March to go by, the defendent at last moved to have the action dismissed for want of prosecution. On the 16th April the plaintiff served the defendent with a copy of a medical certificate signed by some local doctors, stating that, in their opinion, the plaintiff was totally unfit to attend to any business whatever. No reason was given. A motion was duly heard and adjourned by the Court for an affidavit as to plaintiff's condition by a qualified doctor, and on the 17th April the case came on again. It was then certified that the plaintiff was suffering from symptoms of cerebral softening. The Court gave him a month's time, and refused to allow the defendent to have the plaintiff examined by an inde-
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    pendent medical man. Things went on in this way until, at last, on the 5th June, the plaintiff having made no move, the Court did at last dismiss the action for want of prosecution. He (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) had gone so far in order not to break the thread of the story as connected with the Court; but with regard to the knowledge of the Government and their conduct in respect of this Mr. French and his doings, he wished to say this. The day after the libel appeared, a Government official—I no less a man than Colonel Bruce, who was Inspector General of Constabulary—wired for another high official of long standing in the Service, who happened to be in the Provinces, and ordered him to attend in Dublin on the following day in order to furnish information and evidence. On that day Inspector General Bruce was not alone, the Deputy Inspector General Fanning was with him. The Chief Inspector would be puzzled to know how all this information had been obtained by the active energy of private individuals; but the result of it was that the Government did obtain from those two officials very important, not to say complete, information. They were put upon the line of knowing, not only that the charges brought in relation to recent times were true, but that they might have been brought any time during the last 12 years. He (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) had had furnished to him a statement, which he believed to be correct, to the effect that it was French's own declaration, or purported to be that he received a letter some time after, in consequence of which he went to see the Chief Secretary himself, who told him—so the allegation went—that he must bring an action.
    MR. TREVELYAN: I beg pardon; I do not wish to interrupt the hon. Member, but this is very important. I should like to know whether this is a mere allegation, or whether the hon. Member is giving the statement on the authority of any person; I should like to know whether he is going to name his informant, or is stating that which he merely believes to be correct? I do not object to either course.
    MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid, the right hon. Gentleman would appreciate the delicacy of the position in which he (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) was placed. He was obliged, as he went on, very care-

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    fully to consider what he might safely say, and what he had to leave unexpressed; but he might go so far as to say that this was a statement made by French, which, if the inquiry he asked for was granted, they would be able to prove was made by that person. In consequence of that communication, Mr. French went to see the Chief Secretary, who told him that he must bring an action against United, Ireland for libel.
    MR. TREVELYAN: Who must bring an action?
    MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: French. French replied that he had no money, and made a variety of other excuses; but the Chief Secretary pressed him. French then asked for money and for the assistance of the Crown lawyers; but the Chief Secretary refused him either the one or the other. French then went away and did nothing for a fortnight. He then received another letter, in consequence of which he again saw the Chief Secretary, who told him that he must either take action or retire from the Service. French then found himself driven to do that which he sought to avoid; and when he found he had no option he went straight to the office of Messrs. Barlow and Orr, solicitors, and instructed them to bring an action. French complained bitterly that the Castle had not given him money to fight the case; but yet he refused a sum of £500 which certain of his friends, who did not believe in the charges, offered to subscribe for him to fight the case. This matter had been investigated—as certainly it ought not to have been necessary to investigate it—at the cost and on the responsibility of private individuals. The Government officials in Ireland were bound in duty, from what they knew long ago, on evidence which could hardly admit of question, to take action—they knew that the charges were well-founded. The charges were notorious—the conduct was notorious; so much so that the senior members of the Constabulary Force were accustomed to caution cadets against forming acquaintance with French. Evidence which it had been possible to obtain in regard to this matter by private individuals could have been obtained very much more easily by the Government. They had in their service men to whom the matter was known, who had abundance of the dearest possible testimony, which testi-
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    mony could have been readily furnished if proper steps had been taken to elicit it. Those who had taken this matter in hand assured him (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) that one of the difficulties they had to contend with consisted in this—that men connected with the Constabulary Force, who were ready to make admissions, fell back upon the rule by which they were precluded from giving any information respecting the Force to outsiders. More than that, this man French was at the very head of the very Department which was specially charged with investigating matters of this kind. Moreover, when the persons necessarily employed by a private individual to sound to the depths the real truth of this matter were pursuing the work they had in hand, they were met and worked against by members of the Force under the direction of French. At the time when they were told that French was ill, and unable to attend to his own affairs, and was fit for a lunatic asylum—which was the most charitable thing-anyone could conceive—in reality he was busy using the officers of the Force for the purpose of destroying the existing evidence against himself. That appeared plainly from circumstances which admitted of but one interpretation. The defendant's solicitors made special application for a sworn inquiry in regard to this matter; a matter of the very gravest importance in regard to a thing of this kind. But what was the result? It was a proved fact that certain head constables, whose names he had now under his eye, were being employed by French to receive letters at Dublin Castle, and to carry letters to his companions in crime. The Government, or its representatives, were content, on a question for a sworn inquiry into this matter, to accept the mere disclaimer of the head constables, and to refuse the investigation; but the evidence which had been got together was complete, even in such matters as French going down on his knees and saying his prayers before going to bed. The evidence, only a portion of which he (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) held in his hand at this moment, was of a nature which was overwhelming and astounding. Admissions—such admissions—confessions—he did not know how many—lengthened, detailed, explicit with regard to time—many times—with regard

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    to persons—many persons—and with regard to circumstances. It was perfectly impossible for any human being to look over half this evidence without feeling that the Government, who had it in its power to investigate so easily these charges as the Government of Ireland might have done, failed in their duty by not prosecuting the inquiry. He was glad to think that perhaps he had said almost enough to show ground for the Motion which he had put upon the Paper, and he was also glad to state that he had almost got through what he had to say. He had been for 16 years a member of the Civil Service, and during that period he had formed acquaintances and, as he hoped, secured the friendship of a large number of men whom he highly respected and esteemed, and he felt, with hundreds of Civil servants, that the character of the Service, which, for integrity, honour, and morals, was as high as any Civil Service in the world, had not been duly considered by the Government in reference to this matter. He could sympathize with the large number of men of the Legal Profession in Ireland who resented the continuance as Crown Solicitors of men such as Bolton; and, as one of the Representatives of a people suffering under Coercion Law, he thought it his duty to point out to the House the character of one of the chief men who administered that law. He had endeavoured to make the statement which he felt it his duty to lay before the House in few words, and such as should not offend the susceptibilities of the most delicate mind. The House, he was sure, would feel that he had had to discharge a difficult and painful task; and he had nothing to do now but to thank the House for the patience with which it had listened to him, and to move the Motion which stood in his name.
    MR. O'BRIENsaid, he rose for the purpose of seconding the Motion of the hon. Member for Queen's County, and he should not think it necessary at all to supplement his very able and felicitous remarks, only that there were a few points which his personal interest in the matter rendered it necessary that he should refer to. Two actions for libel—one by Mr. Bolton, and the other by Mr. Cornwall—had been brought against him since he gave Notice of the Motion
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    which his hon. Friend had just moved. In United Ireland he had invited Mr. Cornwall to submit his conduct to the verdict of a jury of his fellow-countrymen several weeks before he had mentioned his name in that House; but he took no action. On the contrary, his solicitors, Messrs. Ellis, distinctly stated that he had determined to take no notice of the matter until he decided on a course which gave it a wider publicity than it would otherwise have obtained. Curiously enough, Mr. Cornwall sought to attack him for contempt of Court. His case was, that United Ireland was circulated so largely among the citizens of Dublin that his case, appearing in it, would prejudice the people against him. His action was brought only when his conduct had been brought under the notice of his superiors in that House, and when he knew there was no chance of shirking it. It was exactly the same with the action of Mr. Bolton. If such an attempt had been made to intimidate an English Member of Parliament as had been made to intimidate him, he fancied that Mr. Cornwall and Mr. Bolton would have been standing at the Bar of that House to answer to a charge of Breach of Privilege. He did not want the protection of any privilege; he wanted a jury of his countrymen to stand between himself and the persons in question. If they had gone into these two cases, it was because they had a perfect right to do so. The question he wanted to have decided was that of the responsibility of the Government in respect of the crimes charged; and he thought that responsibility was perfectly clear in connection with the case of French, which was, practically, beyond dispute. He did not mean to go into the details of the evidence in that case, which consisted of statutory declarations, and which, having remained unchallenged for the last six months, had, of course, all the force of evidence. The subject was too horrible to linger upon for one moment, and it was even more so to think that those who were carrying on the system under the walls of Dublin Castle knew well that they had the complicity and protection of the Detective Department. As to the circumstances under which the responsibility rested with the Government, if French's action had been brought, they would have been able to place the Chief

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    Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland and the Inspector of Constabulary at the table of the Court; but, unhappily, they had been obliged to fall back upon secondary evidence. This man received from Mr. Hamilton a summons to an interview with the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, at which the right hon. Gentleman ordered him to bring an action. A fortnight afterwards, not having done so, he was summoned again, and was peremptorily told to bring his action, or be dismissed from the Force. Now, why should he be told that if he were an innocent man? And, on the other hand, why, if he were guilty, should the proof of his guilt be thrown upon him (Mr. O'Brien)? Of course, they had been kept in the dark as to the part taken by the right hon. Gentleman in reference to this matter. He had again and again asked for information, and all that the right hon. Gentleman had told him was that the informal inquiries which had been instituted when the charge was made had been dropped, because an action had been commenced against him. Again they had to fall back upon what they believed they could prove if this inquiry was granted. They wanted to know whether Colonel Bruce reported to the Chief Secretary the evidence given by the first witness who was examined; and, if not, why he had not followed up the clue? Nothing would have been easier than to elicit facts about a case that was the common gossip of the Constabulary depôts. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would be able to state that night why the inquiries were dropped. he invited the attention of the Committee to the fact that the first paragraph in United Ireland, which referred to French, related to a mere general rumour that an officer connected with the Detective Department in Dublin Castle had been suspected under certain circumstances that would cause a sensation. No names were mentioned, and the paragraph was not actionable; and it was repeated in almost the same words in a Dublin newspaper a couple of days afterwards. It was only when they stumbled into the single erroneous statement made in reference to the matter—namely, that French had left the country, and when their information was supposed to be faulty, and it was thought the proof would collapse
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    —that this wretched man was goaded on to take action. He asked the attention of the Committee to dates. Their appearance was entered on the 20th of August; the statement of claim was not served until the 23rd of November; fully three months were wasted in fishing inquiries; all the time French was supposed to be incapable he was at work on his case, and he captured with his own hands one of their detectives; he was in the habit of writing letters to his accomplices exhorting them to hold firm, and trying to terrify or seduce their witnesses away. He kept on, that system by the help of the Court of Queen's Bench; he kept on that system, of sham medical certificates month after month, until the Court of Queen's Bench itself, after giving extensions of time, scouted the ruffian out of Court in disgust. What was the attitude of this crime-abhorring Government all this time towards the man? They allowed him. to swear, in his affidavit, that nothing whatever had occurred to damnify his position; they allowed him. to retire to the country; they sent down a doctor from Dublin, whose name he (Mr. O'Brien) could give, and whose report they suppressed, or, at least, never published; they allowed the fellow to use their detectives, and when complaint was made of the conduct of those detectives, an inquiry was refused; they continued to the very last moment of the last hour their protection of this man; they continued it until actually one of the Judges of the Court of Queen's Bench—Mr. Justice Lawson—raised his voice in the matter. Then, indeed, they dismissed French; but they dismissed him upon the false ground that he was incapacitated from illness. As a matter of fact, ever since he left work he had been driving about the country to fairs and auctions, and transacting his business just as shrewdly as ever he did in his life. If the Government had thought there really was any ground whatever for believing the man innocent, it was a downright outrage on their part to have dismissed him at the time of a crisis. What could have been more unfair towards the wretched man, if he were innocent, than to have been dismissed; and what could be more shameful than the conduct of the Government in delaying that dismissal until the very last moment? The conduct of the Government in respect to the

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    man's pension was only an illustration of the miserable, guilty policy they had pursued all through this business. The right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary (Mr. Trevelyan), when questioned by him (Mr. O'Brien) as to the pension to be given to French, said his pension would depend upon the issue of the action. Was ever such a thing heard of—that this man's pension would depend, not upon the favour of those who employed him, but upon the liability to prove his case? Well, but there was a still more extraordinary plea put forward by the Chief Secretary, and it was possible he would rely upon it to-night. The right hon. Gentleman had said there were no informations sworn against this man. What did the Chief Secretary mean by that? Did he mean that he (Mr. O'Brien) and his Friends should surrender into the hands of the Crown the evidence which they had been at infinite trouble and risk in amassing, and upon which they relied to justify their action before the jury? Were they to surrender that evidence into the hands of the Crown to be manipulated by Mr. George Bolton; and were they to have the fears and the cupidity of their witnesses worked upon by French's own allies, and colleagues, and detectives? Did the right hon. Gentleman mean that before they submitted their evidence to a Judge and a jury of their fellow-countrymen they should allow men like Bolton and Mr. Peter O'Brien to falsify it? Did he mean to say they ought to give an opportunity to such men to falsify their case, to get at their witnesses, and break them down, or, possibly, to prosecute them—it might be to represent that the whole thing was a conspiracy against a meritorious public servant? He contended that if there was the slightest shred of confidence in the administration of justice in Ireland that would have been at once their course, and it would have saved them from a most onerous and loathsome task. But they knew too well what the prosecution of Irish Government officials like French and Bolton by Government officials would end in. They knew full well that for the last two years Government and Crown officials in Ireland had stopped at no amount of illegality or injustice or foul play in order to calumniate, and wrong, and make victims of their political opponents. If the Government wanted
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    information to be sworn, it was their business to have it sworn. If the Government wanted proof of the accusations that were made, they could get plenty of it for the asking. But they had, from the very beginning, considered these men innocent; they had not up to this moment repudiated or withdrawn their protection; indeed, they had not done a single thing, or raised their little finger, to deliver Dublin from the horrors of the sink of depravity in which these men lived. If the Government had any defence to make, they ought to be glad to make it before a Committee of Inquiry such as was now moved for. If the Government refused an inquiry, they must not be surprised if the Irish people attributed to Earl Spencer's Government the immunity which this abominable fraternity had enjoyed, and attributed to that Government some of the ignominy and guilt of the whole transaction.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the conduct of the Government with regard to the criminal charges against James Ellis French, County Inspector Royal Irish Constabulary, Gustavus Cornwall, Secretary to the General Post Office, and George Bolton, Crown Solicitor."—(Mr. Arthur O'Connor.)
    MR. TREVELYAN: Sir, the hon. Member for Queen's County (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) began his speech by giving the House assurances that he was not actuated by any personal feeling against any Member of the Government; and he stated particularly that he did not bring any charge of a disagreeable nature against the action, or throw any imputation upon the character, of my right hon. Friend the Postmaster General (Mr. Fawcett), myself, or Lord Spencer. I was glad to find that the tone in which the hon. Gentleman commenced his speech was continued to the end; and I shall certainly imitate him, so far as the tone of my remarks is concerned. I think that when such frightful matters as those that have been touched upon to-night are before the House it is extremely important that we should observe the utmost moderation of language. Sir, I want, at once, to refer to some observations of the hon. Member (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) which I think particularly concern myself. I was surprised early in this Session at some

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    Questions which, were put to me by the hon. Member for Monaghan (Mr. Healy), because that hon. Member is always particularly anxious to be sure of the materials with which he comes before the House; but that mystery, for it certainly was a mystery to me, is cleared up by the hon. Member for Queen's County. The hon. Member for Queen's County states that he and his Friends—I do not know exactly what word he used—have reason to think that Mr. French has stated that after the first attack was made upon him in The United Ireland he came to see me, and that I told him he should bring an action against The United Ireland; that Mr. French asked for money to carry on this action and for the aid of the Crown Lawyers, and that the Chief Secretary refused both; that then, after a fortnight, he saw me a second time, and that I reiterated my wishes in that respect. Now, Sir, all this is pure invention. The hon. Member for Monagham and the hon. Member for Queen's County have had, I do not hesitate to say, false evidence laid before them, which they are not in the least to be blamed for believing; and I can very well guess whence this evidence comes, because there has been in Dublin for some time past a man of the name of Meiklejohn, who was formerly in the English Detective Force, but who was dismissed from that Force, put upon his trial—a criminal trial—for levying blackmail, and sentenced to two years' imprisonment, the circumstances of the offence being such that it was generally believed it was extremely fortunate for Meiklejohn that two years was the outside punishment that could be given. The House may imagine the terrible danger which Irish officials run when a man of this sort is in Dublin trumping up cases against them. How can any Irish official be free from the most horrible charges when a man of this character is in Dublin spying about to the right and left? I do not know what charges he has brought against other Irish officials; but if they are of the same value as that which he has brought against me, I must say that the House must be very careful how it accepts the outcry with which these charges have been published. For what is the fact about myself? It is very difficult and dangerous to say that you have never seen a person; but, I can assure the
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    House that, to the best of my knowledge, I have never seen Mr. French. But what I am quite certain of is that I did not see him between the time this article appeared in The United Ireland and the time when he actually brought his action against the editor of that paper—the article was published in August, and the action was brought on the 12th or 13th of October. First of all, I was in the House of Commons in August; then I went straight on to the Continent; when I came back I spent a short while in England; and though I have not got the exact date on which I returned to Ireland, I feel quite confident it was not before the 12th of October, because I remember very well that in October I had some shooting, and that I then stayed another week to see the Prime Minister. I am certain it was not until the 13th or 14th of October that I returned to Ireland; consequently, the whole story of my interview with Mr. French, from whatever quarter it comes, is entirely and absolutely incorrect. Well, Sir, I now come to the conduct of the Government in this matter. The hon. Member for Mallow (Mr. O'Brien) complains that, instead of ourselves pursuing and punishing people who have been guilty of certain atrocious crimes, we leave it for private persons, at great risk and expense to themselves, to bring the offenders to justice. My answer to that is that I think something may be said of the duty of those who are aware of these horrible crimes, or who think they are aware that these horrible crimes have been committed. These crimes are criminal matters deserving of criminal punishment; and when any person has evidence that such crimes have been committed, he should proceed against the persons who have committed the crimes in the way that the law enjoins, that is, to lay information before a magistrate, whether the offenders be Government officials or not; and it is extremely doubtful whether, when a man had got hold of such evidence, he has a right to use it in any other way until he has tried that first. That is my opinion, and I hope it is the opinion of the House. But that is not all; because it is not only a question of the hon. Member for Mallow (Mr. O'Brien) having this evidence, but it is a question of our not having it. ["Oh. Oh!"] Mr. Speaker, I must protest against the practice which

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    is gaining ground in the House, that when a statement of fact is made by an hon. Member, it should be greeted in such a manner, which means, if it means anything at all, that the hon. Member is telling a falsehood. It is absolutely the case that, until I saw in The United Ireland the article commencing—"Mr, Gustavus Cornwall, Secretary to the General Post Office, says this is no longer a country in which a gentleman can live," and challenging Mr. Cornwall to bring an action against the paper, neither I, nor any Member of the Irish Government, was in the least aware that any charges had ever been brought against Mr. Cornwall; and, at this moment, I have not the slightest notion of the nature of any charges that have been brought, or can be brought, against Mr. Cornwall, except from the columns of The United Ireland. How, then, can the Government act against a man who may be innocent, or may be guilty, when they have no evidence at all of any sort or kind except what is contained in an article in The United Ireland? ["Oh, oh.!"] I submit that this is not the way in which to conduct a debate. We are not conducting a debate; we are conducting something like a legal inquiry into private character; and in a Court, an advocate is allowed to conduct his case without interruption. In the case of Mr. Bolton, he has been frequently charged in United Ireland with being a forger. Well, we have before us the whole of the charges brought against him, and among them we have been unable to find the least particle of foundation for anything that could possibly be construed into a charge of forgery. How can we condemn a man of so horrible a crime when we have no evidence against him whatever, except that he is charged generally with that crime by United Ireland? The hon. Member for Mallow complains that Mr. Bolton did not bring his action until the hon. Member and the hon. Gentleman who was acting with him had brought forward in this House a Resolution. That was with very good reason; because, up to that time, Mr. Bolton, although he was bitterly attacked in United Ireland, had not been, attacked in such a manner as to make it absolutely necessary for him either to bring an action or retire from the society of decent mankind—
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    because this very reason, placed, as it was, United Ireland, obliged Mr. Bolton to act. I will read a passage from United Ireland—
    "I beg to give notice that whenever the Government apply for a Vote on Account, I will bring under the attention of the House a charge of felonious practices against French, Cornwall, and Mr. George Bolton, Crown Solicitor, and the conduct of the Irish Government in reference thereto."
    And then United Ireland had these words put at the top of this announcement— "A precious trio." It is very shocking to me to find that an hon. Gentleman with whom I exchange, at any rate, official communications, should seriously think it is not a very terrible thing that a man—whom the hon. Gentleman himself now says Mr. Bolton was not charged with an atrocious crime, should be placed in the same category as two other men who are charged with an atrocious crime, called with them "a precious trio," and then charged with felonious practices—and that at a time when there is no case of felonious practices charged against Mr. Bolton. The charge that was made in the House of Commons was afterwards continued in leading articles. I find an article, dated the 24th of May, in which it is said that really Messrs. French, Bolton, & Co. ought to have remembered that even an English Lord Lieutenant could not afford to identify himself with unclean beasts who insisted on bringing their profligacy into public daylight. Everyone in Ireland knew, from the columns of United Ireland, what was charged against Mr. French. Was it possible, then, for a man, who was coupled with French in that article, not to bring an action? Then, in an article on the same day, allusion is made to the Lord Lieutenant for permitting felons, like French, Cornwall, Bolton, & Co., to continue to act in the service of the Government.
    MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: The matter which the right hon. Gentleman is now referring to is sub judice, and I abstained from referring to it.
    MR. TREVELYAN: I am speaking of the reasons why Mr. Bolton brought this action. I am very sorry this case is before the House at all; but if men's names are mixed up with the charges, and the Rules of the House allow me to do so, I am obliged to state

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    all and what I know about the facts. I imagine that, as a general proposition, the one course which the Government can take, when an official of that Government is charged in a newspaper with odious, crimes, and when no evidence of those crimes is brought before the Government—the one course that Government can take, unless the charge is manifestly and ludicrously ridiculous, is to insist on the person so charged, clearing his character by an action. I know of no other course they could pursue. Of course, if the charge is an official charge; if the hon. Member opposite stated that he had reason to believe that there had been in a Government Office favouritism, or a misuse of political power, and that cases of a criminal character were very lightly punished, that would be a very different matter. Such a case could not be easily tried by a Court of Law, but was a proper subject for an official inquiry. But when a Government official is charged with felonious practices, then he has the same right as other people to be tried in a Court of Law, where witnesses can be heard and cross-examined, and the Government has a right to insist that he shall clear his character. With regard to Mr. Cornwall, he has taken exactly the course which, in my opinion, an official or a private individual should take. In the case of Mr. Bolton, he has brought an action for libel—I am not quite sure that he has not brought two —against United Ireland—and certainly not at the expense of or the desire of the Government. Before I pass to French's case, I will just observe on the remarks of the hon. Member for Queen's County (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) as to Mr. Bolton's conduct in 1879–80. The hon. Member stated the case as it appeared to him; but that case, as the hon. Member knows, was laid before the late Government by Mr. Justice O'Brien. The late Lord Chancellor Ball, the Attorney General, and the Solicitor General went very carefully into the matter, and they all agreed that there was no ground for taking any action or official notice of Mr. Bolton's conduct. When the case was again brought to light in the Court of Probate, and questions were asked in this House by the late Lord Chancellor Law, in order to see whether the case stood differently from its position when
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    examined by his Predecessors, he came to the same conclusion as Lord Chancellor Ball and the Law Advisers of the late Government in Ireland. With regard to Mr. French, his case is, in fact, precisely the same as that of Mr. Cornwall, except that it extends over a much longer period. Mr. French went on sick-leave on the 16th of August last year which, I believe, was anterior to any charge brought against him in United Ireland. He went on sick leave on the 6th of August for a month, and the first article in United Ireland, of which we have cognizance, appeared on the 25th of August. On the 1st of September the Inspector General first saw this article, and called Mr. French's attention to it, asking what steps he intended to take to repel so foul an imputation on his character? He was not forced or asked to take this action, though we may imagine that this was the original intention of the Inspector General. On the following day, Mr. French replied that he should place the matter in the hands of his solicitor, and take such action as he was advised. About the same time the Inspector General, on his own responsibility, and without communicating with any Members of the Government, commenced an informal inquiry; but nothing transpired to establish a primâ facie case against Mr. French. On the 8th of September Mr. French was informed that he need not return to his office until called upon to do so; and he then wrote, stating that the facts were in the hands of his solicitor. On the 9th of October he was urged to proceed with his action without any delay. Michaelmas Term begins, I think, at the commencement of November, and lasts till about the 21st of December, and the writs were issued, in this case, on the 12th of October. On the 22nd of October the hon. Member for Mallow (Mr. O'Brien) first appeared in the action. He proposed, I think, to remit the action to the County Court, on the ground, I suppose, of its being a sham action, and it was at this stage that Mr. French made an affidavit of innocence in the matter. On the 3rd of November the motion on the part of the hon. Member for Mallow was refused, and judgment was then demanded. I am informed that the delay between that date and the 23rd of November was not due to Mr. French;

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    but that is a legal matter, on which I am obliged to speak second-hand. The defence of the hon. Member for Mallow was put in on the 5th of December. This defence was made before counsel, and counsel differed up to a certain point; but it ended by Mr. French asking for particulars of justification on the 18th of December. On the 20th of December the Inspector General, who had again asked Mr. French to hurry on the suit as fast as possible, was informed that no time was being lost in pressing on the case. On the 5th of January, 1884, the solicitors of the hon. Member for Mallow refused to give any particulars. This caused considerable delay. On the 5th of February, 1884, the Court ordered them to give particulars within 10 days; but in consequence of this refusal of the hon. Member for Mallow to give particulars, something like six weeks at a most critical time were lost, so that if there were delays it seems to me that they were on both sides.
    MR. O'BRIEN: Allow me to say that particulars were given at once. It was further particulars that the Court ordered.
    MR. TREVELYAN: Eventually the Court decided that the action which the hon. Member was unwilling to take must go on. After these particulars were given, 12 days' notice were required, and this practically brought the case up to the 1st March, when the Circuits went out, and it was impossible to go on with the case in the Hilary Sittings. Mr. French remained on sick leave, and on the 21st of February he obtained a medical certificate stating that his intellect was more or less affected, and that further excitement would very likely cause permanent mental derangement. This medical certificate was written by Dr. Curtis, Senior Surgeon of the City and County of Cork General Hospital, and by Dr. Eames, Medical Superintendent of the District Asylum. About this time occurred an incident which has been referred to several times. It is said that the detectives who protected French interfered with the detectives who were employed to watch him. The solicitors of the hon. Member for Mallow wrote several letters to the Inspector General, one of which I will read; and I will also read the Inspector General's answer. On the 28th February, the solicitors of
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    the hon. Member for Mallow wrote this letter—
    "Sir,—Tour letter of the 27th completely evades our inquiries. You state, 'The Inspector General has not authorized any proceedings on the part of any members of the Force,' and of course we could not expect you to admit that he had. Be good enough to in form us specifically:—1st. Are you aware that Head Constable Cottingham and Irwin have amongst other matters been in communication with the plaintiff, and have requested him to point out our private detective, in order that they might follow him and watch his proceedings, for the purpose of frustrating his investigations, and also have been watching our officers? 2nd. Is this by the Inspector (General's approval? 3rd. If not, what notice does the Inspector General propose to take of their conduct? 4th. Will the Inspector General guarantee that such conduct will be discontinued? 6th. If the above statements are denied, will the Inspector General inquire on the subject? We are, Sir, your obedient servants, CHANCE & WILEY."
    THE DEPUTY Inspector General's answer was as follows:—
    "R. I. Constabulary, Dublin,
    "11th March, 1884.
    "Gentlemen,—I am directed by the Inspector General, with reference to your communication of the 28th ultimo, already acknowledged, to reply to your several queries as follows:—
    "1. The Inspector General was not aware of any action having been taken by the Head Constables referred to in reference to Mr. French. Since receiving your letter he has caused inquiries to be made from Head Constables Cottingham and Irwin, and has learned that, in consequence of a communication, made to H. L. Cottiugham by Mr. French, that some suspicious looking persons had been looking for him, they made inquiries at Mr. French's lodgings, and also at a house opposite, whether such was the fact, and ascertained that someone had been making inquiries for him. The Constables did ask at both houses what description of persons were inquiring for Mr. French, but did not ask to have them pointed out. The Constables made these inquiries solely with a view to the personal safety of Mr. French, and not for the purpose of aiding him in any way in the pending action. The Inspector General has further learned that the Constables were not aware that the persons who made the inquiries, or any of them, were acting as detectives, or engaged in assisting you in the case, or that you had any person engaged for detective purposes; he has also learned that they never watched your offices, and do not know where they are situated.
    "The above reply renders a reply to the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th queries unnecessary.
    "With reference to the 5th query, the Inspector General (from the inquiries made by him) is satisfied that there is no foundation for the charges made against the Constables referred to. He, therefore, does not consider any further inquiry necessary.
    "The Inspector General has no objection to further state that he is not aware of any action

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    on the part of any member of the Force for the purpose of aiding Mr. French in the pending action. Any such action would have neither his encouragement nor authority.
    "I am, &c. (Signed) R. F. FANNING."
    On the 18th March, the Assistant Inspector General wrote expressing dissatisfaction at the delay that had taken place, and requiring to be furnished with a statement of the case, and also asking why Mr. French had not brought his case to trial. Then came the letter from Mr. French's solicitors, stating that his condition was such that he was unable further to instruct them. What I would say about the delay is that it is very doubtful whether at the first sittings — the Michaelmas Sittings—there was delay upon the part of French. It certainly is open, to a certain extent, to that construction; but with regard to the second and longer sittings, I think the delay was owing to legitimate legal proceedings. Legal proceedings were set in motion, no doubt, by the solicitors of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Mallow (Mr. O'Brien). After that, when we come to the Easter Sittings, there is no doubt whatever of the cause of delay. The cause of the delay was that Mr. French was perfectly unable to take part in any business whatever, least of all in such a terrible business as this. On the 4th of April, the Inspector General wrote that there should be no further delay, and calling upon Mr. French to proceed to trial at the earliest day.
    MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: The Inspector General, I presume, did not believe that French was ill?
    MR. TREVELYAN: He did not know how ill he was. Three doctors were appointed, as a medical board, to examine into the condition of French—namely, Drs. Eames, J. E. Curtis, and S. J. Gordon. I think the professional character of these gentlemen is such that their certificate will be taken as of some value, and that there is no ground for the statement by the hon. Member for Mallow that this is a sham certificate. Their report is a very strong one. It is as follows:—
    "Cork District Lunatic Asylum,
    "20th April, 1884,
    "We, the undersigned, having been appointed by His Excellency the Lord Lieutenant to examine and certify, for His Excellency's information, our opinion as to the present state of health of County Inspector James Ellis
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    French, R.I.C., beg to report that, having this day visited that officer, we are of opinion that he is suffering from mental disease (softening of brain) and great nervous debility with impairment of bodily health, and that from this infirmity of mind and body he is incapable of discharging the duties of his situation, and that such infirmity is likely to be permanent.
    "JAMES ALEXANDER EAMES, M.D., F.R.C.S.I.,
    "Res. Med. Supt. District Asylum, Cork.
    "JAMES E. CURTIS, F.R.C.S.I.,
    "Senion Surgeon Co. and City Cork
    "General Hospital, and South Infirmary,
    "S. J. GORDON, Surgeon R.I. Constabulary."
    With that certificate, and hearing that French was unfit for the service, he was struck off the Force as from the 20th of April. The question of giving him a pension was postponed, pending the result of the legal proceedings; but if it is clearly ascertained that his ill-health is undoubtedly permanent, that matter will have to be reconsidered, with that sort of inquiry into his official antecedents as we should make in the case of any officer. On the 5th of June, the action, which is now well known in Ireland, was dismissed on the ground that the condition of Mr. French's health prevented him from prosecuting. I think it was an extremely unfortunate thing that Mr. French was not able to bring that action. I think that Mr. Cornwall and Mr. Bolton are perfectly right in pressing forward, as rapidly as possible, those proceedings, by which they hope to clear their characters; and I can only end, as I began, by stating that the Government have had before them no facts or evidence upon which they could properly have instituted a criminal prosecution against either of these persons. I am glad to think that hon. Members, on the whole, have hitherto conducted the debates of this kind in such a way as not to hamper the responsibility of the Government, or to raise disputed questions which are to be decided elsewhere; and I must seriously beg hon. Members who may yet take part in this discussion to remember that it is a very serious matter to make the House of Commons a Court of Law. We have before had this House made a Court of Criminal Appeal by trying over again cases already tried in a Court of Law; but in the case now before the House, the gentlemen whose names are mentioned in connection with felonious practices are certainly being tried at this moment by the House of Commons on

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    what is only too likely to be an ex parte statement, without any opportunity of being heard in their defence, and without any opportunity of the evidence brought against them being subjected to the test of cross-examination. I trust I have satisfied the House that in this grave matter the Government has acted as it has always been the practice of Governments to act, and I earnestly hope that the debate will not be continued much longer.
    MR. HEALYsaid, it appeared to him that Joe Brady had one great misfortune — namely, that he could not get three good doctors to certify to his general debility. He (Mr. Healy) felt perfectly satisfied that if that man Brady could have provided the right hon. Gentleman with a certificate from Dr. Eames, Mr. Curtis, and Mr. Gordon, he would not at the present moment be lying calcined in a shell in Kilmainham Prison, because the speech of the right hon. Gentleman practically amounted to this—that a man might be charged with the most frightful, heinous, and abominable of crimes, and if he could get three doctors to certify that he was unable to attend to his business that, in their opinion, covered him from, all responsibility. He (Mr. Healy) congratulated the right hon. Gentleman upon taking up that view of the law. He must advert to another peculiar view of the law taken by the right hon. Gentleman, which he (Mr. Healy) trusted they would profit by later on in Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman had commenced by saying that he was not surprised that terrible charges had been made against the Government officials in Ireland, because a certain man named Meiklejohn, who had been convicted of fraud and sentenced to two years' hard labour, was at present engaged in Dublin, and that in Dublin Government officials ran very terrible risks from the statements of this man. Well, if the Government officials ran very terrible risks from the statements of the man Meiklejohn, when Meiklejohn was only employed by a private individual, who had not the hosts of the State behind him, nor the machinery of the Government and the police at his back, what terrible risks did men run when the Government desired to run down some unfortunate peasant or some political opponent, and when they could scour every prison in
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    the country and employ characters like George Bolton to extract evidence from them. Was there not terrible risk run by every Member upon these Benches, when a man like George Bolton was the chief criminal investigator, and James Ellis French was the chief detective investigator of the Government? Did they run no terrible risk when they got a man like Patrick Delaney, a convict sentenced to five years' penal servitude for highway robbery, and then to 10 years' penal servitude for conspiracy to murder; then sentenced to death, being convicted of murder, reprieved by the Government because he gave them information; kept in clover in Mountjoy Gaol, and produced after 12 months to swear against other men? Who was this man Meiklejohn, whose operations placed Irish officials under such terrible risk? Why, he was an ex-Government official. Set a Meiklejohn to catch a Bolton. It was a terrible thing that they should employ this man and run the terrible risk of impugning the success of abominable proceedings of persons like Mr. James Ellis French. Was it strange that private individuals in Ireland, to convict these men of fearful crimes, should hesitate to employ a Meiklejohn, when the Government did not hesitate to employ a Patrick Delaney or a James Carey? He had often heard flimsy speeches at the Treasury Table; but he had never heard a more flimsy statement in his life than that which had just been delivered by the Chief Secretary. The right hon. Gentleman threw over James Ellis French—his case was hopeless. He was suffering from locomotor ataxy or Heaven knew what; but "oh," said the Government, "we have got two men to fall back upon, the true and trusty Bolton, and the right well-beloved Cornwall." They threw over French—he went to the wolves; but they had still in their quiver the arrows of Cornwall and Bolton. Aye, and the right hon. Gentleman spurred them on in this House to bring their actions. Of French the right hon. Gentleman had no hope. If the case rested on French, the right hon. Gentleman knew that the Government would stand condemned; but he had yet hope. Let Englishmen take courage and support the right hon. Gentleman; all was not yet lost; there were yet two men to bring actions against the hon. Gentle-

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    man the Member for Mallow (Mr. O'Brien) and against United Ireland; and then, when United Ireland had proved the charges, the right hon. Gentleman would come down, having egged them on, and would wash his hands of the whole matter at the Treasury Table. The right hon. Gentleman made a great deal of the allegation of the hon. Member for Queen's County (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) that French had been seen by himself. Well, he (Mr. Healy) had watched the right hon. Gentleman very carefully; and he had not said one word, when guarding himself, with regard to whether or not any other official had not seen French. It was the terrible Meiklejohn who had made the statement regarding the right hon. Gentleman and French, and the character of Meiklejohn was such that none of his statements were worthy of credence—the Irish officials ran terrible risks. But what was the instance the right hon. Gentleman gave of the untrustworthiness of Meiklejohn? It was that he had reported that French had seen the Irish Secretary, when, as a matter of fact, no interview had taken place between the two; but did the right hon. Gentleman deny that French had sought an interview; did he deny that he had seen the Under Secretary, Sir Robert Hamilton, or the Deputy of Deputy Jenkinson, or Colonel Bruce, or Mr. Fanning, or even Earl Spencer himself? The right hon. Gentleman made a tremendous point of the fact that he was on his holidays shooting pheasants, and that, therefore, the statement as to Mr. French having interviewed him was untrue. The allegation was truly a terrible one. The right hon. Gentleman might not have seen Mr. French; but there were plenty of Man Jacks in the Castle. If the Government had not spoken with the mouth of the Chief Secretary, surely they were not without mouths in Ireland? But the right hon. Gentleman admitted, later on, that he had written letter after letter—that a regular cat-o'-nine-tails of epistles was written to French, urging him, whipping him, goading him, threshing him on to bring an action, but yet never bringing him up to the scratch. That was the position taken up by the right hon. Gentleman. He congratulated the right hon. Gentleman, and he congratulated England and the Government on having a Chief Secretary to the
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    Lord Lieutenant of Ireland so ingenuous that he could rest upon that position a case of this magnitude, knowing that the position taken up by the Irish Members on those Benches was that an Irish official was endeavouring to crush an Irish newspaper which had been, and please God would continue to be, a thorn in the side of a hated Government. But the right hon. Gentleman said—"Thou cans't not say I did it. I was pheasant shooting." But they did not know that Sir Robert Hamilton, Colonel Bruce, or even Lord Spencer himself had not seen French. They complained that all the information they obtained on this subject had to be dragged out of the right hon. Gentleman, as it were, with pincers. Was that the way in which English Members would be treated if at any time they had to make a charge against Colonel Henderson or Mr. Vincent—and Mr. French occupied in Ireland relatively the same position as they did? Supposing that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for North Devon (Sir Stafford Northcote) or some other Member of the Tory Party brought a charge against Mr. Vincent, or other persons of his rank, and the actions were allowed to rest month after month and term after term, what would be said by English Members? Why, they would have dragged piecemeal out of the Home Secretary all the information he had in his possession. Would they not have made the charge that the Home Secretary was an accomplice in the matter? The right hon. Gentleman was a Gentleman, an English official, an English Gentleman, and he knew not what it was that compelled him to go over to Ireland and screen the conduct of officials like French. He was a Gentleman in feeling, by nature, and by birth; what obligation was there upon him to defend a dirty dog like James Ellis French? Was not all Ireland under the belief that the Government had screened this man? Would they take the verdict of men on the Treasury Bench as to whether the right hon. Gentleman had raised the standard of officialism by the delay that had occurred? The consciences of men were tried in that House by Divisions in the Lobby; but if they were written on their faces he would take the verdict of hon. Members as to whether the right hon. Gentleman had or had not lowered the standard of offi-

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    cial conduct by the course lie had taken. He knew not why, when English officials went over to Ireland, they made themselves the defenders or the accomplices of persons of this character, and why, when they stood at the Table, they could not say—"This man has not cleared his name of charges of a foul nature which have been made against him," or "The charges against so and so have not been proved." It did not apply to the right hon. Gentleman to defend a creature of the character of French. There were men who would have quitted the Government before they would have made such a defence as that made by the right hon. Gentleman. But they were told they ought to have entrusted their evidence to the hands of the Government. But they knew too much to entrust them with anything they possessed in the way of evidence. They had before their eyes the precedent of Corry Connellan. And what did the English Government do in relation to him? They were as certain of his guilt as they were certain of the guilt of James Ellis French. Some creature of a former Lord Lieutenant of Ireland had facts before him as clear as those which the present Lord Lieutenant had with regard to French. Corry Connellan was hunted by the Government out of the country for his crimes; but no prosecution was commenced against him, and he was now drawing a pension from the Secret Service Fund. Trust the Government—the protectors and advisers of Corry Connellan! Give proofs to George Bolton! Let George Bolton manipulate the evidence! He would ask English Members to make the case their own. Here was a Government official charged with crime, who, as a matter of fact, if the proofs of it were entrusted to the Government, would decide upon his own case. Mr. James Ellis French would have to say whether Mr. James Ellis French was or was not guilty, and whether he should be prosecuted or not. Why, in that case the Government would be as sure of a verdict as they were with the Green Street packed jury. Sworn proofs, however, had been furnished in Court. A volume—he might almost say half a cart load—of depositions against French were recorded in the Court of Queen's Bench. Did not the Crown Lawyers know the way to the Courts? If it were a charge against some leading Land Leaguer, how quickly
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    would the sleuth-hounds of the Government sniff out the facts! If any person whom the Government wanted to destroy were the object of these charges, and there was the same amount of evidence in existence as there was against French, how long would the Government have been in finding it out? Take himself, for instance. But this charge was made against a detective — their own darling—and, therefore, the aegis of the Government was flung around him. It was, he said, monstrous to expect the hon. Member for Mallow to supply all his evidence. The Government should be as anxious for their own reputation as a private individual was; like Caesar's wife, they should be above suspicion; the individual on whom the lives of Irishmen might rest should be a man against whom no one could throw a stone. This man Bolton—forger, adulterer, wife swindler—he who procured evidence and manipulated prisoners in their cells—did the in-door work of the Government; the out-door work was done by Mr. James Ellis French; they were the two branches of crime detection in Ireland. On the right of the Government there was George Bolton, and on their left James Ellis French. And they were asked to have confidence in the administration of justice! The right hon. Gentleman said that Bolton had been charged with felony; but that, as far as he understood the matter, the crime only amounted to misdemeanour. He thought the right hon. Gentleman might have left that defence to his learned Colleague; an indictable offence was, in the popular parlance of the Press, referred to as felonious. The right hon. Gentleman said in effect—"Mr. Bolton was charged with being a fraudulent trustee; we are advised by an English legal luminary that that is not felony. Poor George has only been guilty of a misdemeanour. He has swindled his wife; as a bankrupt he has paid 6½d. in the pound; his dealings with his tenants were most improper; he is a fraudulent trustee and a fraudulent bankrupt; but he has not been guilty of felony." He should have supposed that an English gentleman would have blushed with shame for making that defence in the House of Commons. At what a pass had they arrived, when English Members, asked to vote on this question, had to be coaxed

    711
    to follow the Government into the Lobby—that a right hon. Gentleman should be so immured in the incrustations of the Castle as to make a defence of this nature, and that English Gentlemen should be bound to him so closely by the ties of Party as to be willing to back him up in that defence! The right hon. Gentleman stated that Mr. Bolton intended to bring his action, and he then skilfully avoided all reference to Mr. Bolton's conduct; but he made a speech that would, no doubt, be appreciated by a Belfast jury. The right hon. Gentleman had evidently bright hopes of the success of Mr. Bolton's action; but why was the case not to be tried by the special jurors of Dublin, who knew Mr. Bolton so well? Why did he not avail himself of the aid of his friend Mr. Welsh, of the Constitutional Club, with whom he was in the habit of manipulating the panels of juries? A jury which was good enough to try persons accused of the most atrocious agrarian offences was not good enough to decide on Mr. Bolton's case; so he fell back on the clause of the Crimes Act which provided for change of venue, and brought his action in the county of Antrim. He would ask, seeing that Lord Spencer, when there, had to be guarded by Dragoons, what guard would not his hon. Friend the Member for Mallow (Mr. O'Brien) need? Mr. Bolton, in this act, had practically "thrown up the sponge" so far as his conduct was concerned; but the right hon. Gentleman bade him be of good cheer, because of the people of Belfast. Mr. Bolton, the manipulator of jury panels, who knew the panels of the City of Dublin a great deal better than he knew his prayers, this man had gone to Belfast to have his action tried, not being able to trust to his fellow-citizens in the capital, and upon that fact the Government rested their case. What moral weight would attach to a verdict obtained in such a way? French had gone, Bolton had gone to Belfast, and before very long they would have got rid of Cornwall. Of Cornwall's action it was not for him to speak now, although he might very fairly do so after the manner in which Bolton's case had been treated by the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary. The manifesto of the right hon. Gentleman would be read between the lines by the Belfast jury, and even if Bolton secured
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    a verdict, he would not be entitled to claim that there was any moral weight attaching to it. The Chief Secretary made a great point of Bolton being called a forger by the United Ireland; but Bolton, designated, as he had been, forger, swindler, thief, adulterer, fraudulent bankrupt, had not attempted to bring a libel action. He was called forger, according to the right hon. Gentleman; if so, where was the action for libel? He was called a thief, where was the action for libel? He was called ruffian, swindler, and every adjective that could be was applied to the hound as he was; but no action for libel was forthcoming. Why was that? According to law, a man was not entitled to recover damages for the loss of a character he had not got. Bolton had no character. He relied upon the fact that in the report of Parliamentary proceedings a Motion was given which he said was tantamount to accusing him of disgraceful offences. That was the head and front, the top and bottom, of the action which Bolton proposed to bring before the jurors of the City of Belfast. Finally, he would say that the Government had given them no satisfaction whatever in this matter. September, October, November, December, January, February, March, April, May, and June had passed away, and nothing had been got out of the Government with regard to James Ellis French. Month after month was allowed to slip away and nothing was done, and at the present moment the Government said that even the question of French's pension was under consideration. With what glee would the Radical economists vote for the pension of James Ellis French? The case of the Government from first to last was of the flimsiest description; and he regretted that a gentleman of the character and position of the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary should have been obliged to rely on a defence such as that he had made tonight. That defence would be read closely in Ireland, and the people would understand that, no matter how great the crime, if the offender were a Government official, he would be taken up by the authorities. And this was a Government which put down agrarian criminals, political offenders, men of every description who were opposed to them, while it allowed frightful crimes to be committed

    713
    under the walls of Dublin Castle with impunity. They hunted down every political offender, all the machinery of Government was available to hunt them down; but when he and his Friends brought charges of this kind against their own. officials, not only did they get no aid, but the Government's police officers were occupied in dogging the footsteps of their witnesses and detectives, and keeping close watch upon the doors of their solicitors and the persons who employed the solicitors. He made the Government a present of to-night's debate; it would ennoble them in the opinion of the Irish people. This discussion had been conducted by the hon. Member for Mallow (Mr. O'Brien) and the hon. Member for Queen's County (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) in a manner to which no one in the House could take exception. No words had been spoken by those hon. Gentlemen which ought not to have been spoken. The House and the country at large would appreciate what the Government had done. They had had this official under their eyes, they knew his guilt, and knowing his guilt for months and months they had screened him; they now screened him from prosecution, and said that if he got well again they would give him a pension. The Government were doing an evil thing for their reputation. That, however, was a matter for themselves and the country to judge upon. He would only say once more he regretted that a Gentleman of the character of the present Chief Secretary for Ireland, the biographer and the nephew of Lord Macaulay, should be known in history as the apologist of James Ellis French.
    MR. HARRINGTONsaid, he thought the Irish people, who had looked forward with some interest to this debate, would be surprised and shocked at the reply which the Chief Secretary had made to the Motion of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Queen's County (Mr. Arthur O'Connor). For many months this matter had been discussed in Ireland; and if the Chief Secretary had not had his attention drawn to it, and if he had not had an opportunity of making himself acquainted with the allegations which had been made against James Ellis French, it was only another of the many instances of the ignorance of Irish affairs which the right hon.
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    Gentleman displayed. Almost at the commencement of this Session, the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary said that the Government were acting in this matter with their eyes open, and tonight he had posed as the advocate of James Ellis French. Everyone, too, who read the observations of the right hon. Gentleman with regard to the case of Mr. Bolton would feel that there had been delivered in the House of Commons that which might more properly be delivered by the counsel for Mr. Bolton before the Belfast jury. The right hon. Gentleman had said that independent medical officers were obtained to examine Mr. French. What, however, was the fact? Why, that one of the doctors was the very gentleman whom Mr. French had called in; and he (Mr. Harrington) thought that, in calling in that gentleman, French had, at least, shown that he was capable of exercising his faculty of discretion. The Chief Secretary had said that information was not supplied to the Government in the matter, and that was the excuse which he made for the Government taking no action in the case of James Ellis French. If the right hon. Gentleman had no evidence, could he not, at least, have consented to receive evidence by assenting to the Motion for an inquiry? The allegation of the Chief Secretary was that he had no evidence on which to proceed, and that unless the Crown was put in motion the Crown would not proceed. How much evidence had he required in other cases? How much evidence did he require when he accused him (Mr. Harrington) of intimidating his constituents at Westmeath? Did he wait until action was taken by the constituents themselves? No; he immediately took the prosecution into his own hands; he underlined the observations which were alleged to have been used by him (Mr. Harrington), directed a prosecution, and appointed the gentleman who was to prosecute. A very remarkable incident, as bearing on this case, came under his notice last Saturday evening. While standing at the mail boat at Kingston, he noticed the detectives of the Chief Secretary and his Government engaged in watching the movements of any political persons who were to cross by the boat. He saw them engaged in the effort to keep in the country men who would be very anxious

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    to escape from being witnesses in this infamous case. From the nature of the offence, the House would understand the extreme difficulty his hon. Friend (Mr. O'Brien) had encountered in getting evidence which would enable him to make a solid defence. The right hon. Gentleman wanted them to place in the hands of the Government officials all that evidence upon which his hon. Friend relied for his defence, while, in the same breath, the right hon. Gentleman admitted it was his desire, and the desire of all the officials of Dublin Castle, that French should do all in his power to crush United Ireland. He (Mr. Harrington) had no wish to detain the House longer; he would only say that to the shame and disgrace with which the name of the Irish Government was associated would be added the further shame and scandal and disgrace of the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary cloaking, by his words to-night, an offence which every respectable person in Dublin believed to have been committed.
    MR. PARNELL: Although, Sir, I am a considerable shareholder in the United Ireland newspaper, I have never taken any part in the management of the paper. The management is intrusted by the Company to my hon. Friend the Member for Mallow (Mr. O'Brien), who has always shown the greatest ability and discretion in the discharge of his duties. It has not, therefore, fallen to my lot to be acquainted with the particular case of Mr. James Ellis French in any other way, or in any other more intimate manner, than as an ordinary reader of the newspaper. I have certainly looked forward to this debate with very considerable interest, in order that it might be possible for me to see upon what foundation the hon. Member for Mallow (Mr. O'Brien) rested the extraordinary and unusual charges which he has made against Mr. French, and which have produced such a sensation and such an unheard of state of affairs in Dublin and in Ireland generally. Well, now, Sir, I have listened with the greatest attention to the statements which were made by the hon. Member for Queen's County (Mr. Arthur O'Connor), who brought forward this Motion, and also to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Monaghan (Mr. Healy), and I am bound to say that I think the
    716
    Government cannot meet the charges which have been made against Mr. French, their former Chief Inspector of Constabulary. The right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary (Mr. Trevelyan) says he has had no evidence presented to him, and, I suppose, he means also that the Irish Executive have had no evidence presented to them, as to the charges which have been made against Mr. French. But I would remind the right hon. Gentleman and the House that the charge in question is a charge of felony of a very grave and gross character; and I would ask the Chief Secretary whether, if such a charge—a charge of felony of this kind, or of any other kind—were made against persons in Ireland not in the employment of the Government, he would not think it the duty of the Police Department to investigate the case with a view of sifting it to the very foundation? It is not yesterday that these charges have been made against James Ellis French. The series of charges which has culminated to-night has been lasting for a period of fully 10 months, and it has culminated in the neglect by Mr. French to prosecute the action against the hon. Member for Mallow (Mr. O'Brien), and by the dismissal by the Courts in Dublin of the action. I cannot help thinking that the Government must consider that this is a most unfortunate termination of the action. Is it, or is it not, the intention of the Government in Ireland to investigate these charges against Mr. French? If my hon. Friend the Member for Mallow, with a single detective, with all the disadvantages which must arise to a private individual engaged in such a case as this, with the very power of the Government's detective force in Ireland arrayed against him, has been able to accumulate testimony on the records of the Court of Queen's Bench in Ireland, filling, as has been described by the hon. Member for Monaghan (Mr. Healy), a volume, is it not possible for the Government, with all their detectives, with all their power, their wealth, and their means of investigating felonies, means which, as regards political offenders, they have not shrunk from using to the fullest extent—is it not in their power, after these charges have been rung in their ears for 10 months, and have now been brought forward in the House of Commons—nay, is it not their bounden

    717
    duty to investigate the case with the view of placing this man, if he be criminal, on his trial? I cannot see upon what ground the Government say that it is not their duty to interfere. If the Government maintain their present attitude, Mr. French has it in his power, by refusing to recover, to prevent his conduct from ever being investigated before a Court. If an accusation involving felony had been made against anybody other than a Government official, if that accusation had been made with such persistency, and in such detailed evidence, as has been brought forward in the case of Mr. French, would the Government shrink from a prosecution? I cannot think they would shrink from an investigation, and I believe that if crimes of a political character were so well substantiated as this gross crime has been against Mr. French, the result would undoubtedly be that all the influence of the Detective Department in Ireland, and all the power of the Government, would be used for the purpose of obtaining a conviction against the persons accused. How has the right hon. Gentleman exhibited himself to the Irish people? They know very well what steps the Irish Government have taken for the purpose of detecting and putting down offences of an agrarian and political character during the last two years. They know perfectly well that the Irish Government shrank from no means, expense, or exertion to put down such crimes; and yet, when one of their own trusted officials is accused of an offence of this character—an offence which must be notorious to the police in Dublin, not only as regards Mr. French, but also a great many other persons, I am sorry to say, it is not possible for the Government to shield these individuals without incurring the imputation of one-sidedness and unfairness in the execution of their duty as the upholders of the law and the punishment of offenders in Ireland. In this case the offender happens to be one of their own officials, and one upon whom they have relied for the maintenance of the law, and the attempt to cloak the case throws general discredit on the administration of the law in Ireland. It is utterly impossible for the right hon. Gentleman to maintain the position he has taken up to-night. He has attacked the detective Meiklejohn, and endeavoured to throw discredit upon
    718
    him by alluding to his conviction for fraud two or three years ago. I think that is not the tone he should have adopted in regard to this case. If he had not investigated this case, and had not directed it to be investigated in Ireland by the authorities, he ought to have done so; and if he had not directed such an investigation it did not lie in his mouth to speak of the persons who had investigated the matter, and the agents who had been the means of preventing French from trampling on the hon. Member for Mallow, as he had done tonight. Unpleasant as this has been, I cannot see how any other course was open to my hon. Friend than that which he has taken. He could not have gone to French, when a suspicion of French had dawned upon him, and ask French to give him the assistance of his own detective department to ascertain his (French's) guilt. Such a course would have been puerile and absurd in the last degree, and in view of the conduct of the Government and of the strange fatuity which seemed to possess the Chief Secretary; and it seemed a most extraordinary thing that his hon. Friend should have been rebuked by the Chief Secretary, and that the hon. Member's agent should be held up to defamation by the right hon. Gentleman for doing that which ought to have been done long ago by the detective department of Dublin Castle. I suppose the Government would refuse to grant this Select Committee; but an independent inquiry of some kind is necessary in regard to this matter, and unless some sufficient assurance was given that the Government viewed the matter in its proper light, and that they saw the great discredit which would be thrown on the administration of the law in Ireland, and upon the whole Executive Government in Ireland, by their further insisting upon their unfortunate and ill-judged course, I certainly think it will be the duty of Irish Members to recur to this subject until they can touch the conscience of the Government.
    MR. FAWCETT: In the position that I hold in the Government, I feel I have no claim whatever to ask the House to allow me to make any remarks on the general issue raised on this Motion; but as one of the persons referred to is an old official of the Department over which I preside, I will venture to say a few

    719
    words lest my silence should be misunderstood. As I understand the charge that has been brought against the Government, it is this—and I may say in passing that I think personally, and I think the Chief Secretary would say the same, that nothing could be kinder to us personally than the tone of the hon. Member for Queen's County—the charge against the Government is this: that we had evidence, or ought to have had evidence, which would enable us to proceed against certain officials; that we declined this duty and this responsibility, and left the investigation to be practically carried on by a private Member of this House, who brought charges against these officials in the columns of his newspaper. Now, let me explain exactly my own position in the case, and I think probably a simple explanation will be, after all, the best vindication of the Government. Far from having had any evidence; far from any hon. Members having given me any evidence or even the smallest intimation that they suspected the official of the Post Office whose name has been mentioned of the crimes which have been charged against him, I read in United Ireland, on the 8th of May, a certain article stating that there was no official in the Post Office whose character was more free from suspicion. Now, in justice to Mr. Cornwall, let me tell the House that he himself sent this article officially to the Post Office, and directed our attention to it, and this was the first intimation we received of these charges. Mr. Cornwall particularly put himself into communication with a firm of respectable solicitors. They consulted one of the counsel of the Irish Government of the highest standing, and throughout he has acted according to their advice. I think I should have enjoined upon him the necessity—and I did so—of bringing an action in a Court of Justice in order to free himself from these charges, yet, in justice to Mr. Cornwall, I am bound to say that he took that course before he was aware that I was going to enjoin it upon him. He has given me a most positive assurance that there should not be one hour's unnecessary delay in bringing these charges, so far as he is concerned, to an issue; and I can only say that, so far as I am concerned, I will take care, although I am sure that such an assurance is not necessary, that this
    720
    promise is fully redeemed. This being the case, as the hon. Member for Queen's County sees, the case is virtually sub judice, and I am sure every Member of the House will feel that it would be most inappropriate for me to say a single word further in respect to this case; but I felt it was due to him to say that he did everything which an honourable man—supposing he is honourable, and is as free from these charges as anyone else—could do. He has done, so far as I can discover, everything that an honourable man could do; and I say this without expressing any opinion as to the ultimate decision; but as soon as the charges were first made on the 1st of May, he did everything that an honourable and innocent man could do to vindicate himself; and, that being the case, I am sure everyone will be careful not to add to the painfulness of the position by saying an unnecessary word until the trial has been brought to a result. Now, with regard to the position of the Government in reference to this case, it has been constantly said that we have not availed ourselves of the evidence in our possession; but charges have been brought, and we have no evidence. If the evidence is in the possession of any Member of the Government, then, of course, we are bound to investigate it. If the hon. Member for Mallow (Mr. O'Brien), or the hon. Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell), or the hon. Member for Monaghan (Mr. Healy), had come to me and said that, from evidence in their possession, they were prepared to bring a most serious charge against officials in my Department, then, treating these Gentlemen as honourable men, and feeling that they would not bring these charges, or make such statements, unless they had some evidence to rest upon, I should have said at once—"Tell me your evidence. You may trust me. Tell me your evidence; and, so far as I am concerned, the case shall be carefully, closely, and exhaustively investigated." But that is not my position, and that has not been the position, as I understand, of the Irish Government in respect to the other officials, although any hon. Member might have told me this. As I said before, the first direct rumour I heard of this charge brought against an official of the Post Office was that I read an article which was furnished to me, not by the person who

    721
    brought the charge, but by the person against whom the charge was brought I can only say, further—although, possibly, it may be considered that I am not the right person to speak on this subject—that it seems to me that there could be no more inappropriate tribunal to investigate a criminal charge of a most grave kind than a Select Committee of this House. A Select Committee may, if the interests of other people were not involved in it, investigate the conduct of the Government, and may censure the Government; but it seems to me—and I think that in this opinion every lawyer will agree with me—that there could be no more inappropriate tribunal before which the innocence can be established, or the guilt proved, of men who are charged with heinous offences than a Select Committee. This being the case, I hope the hon. Member will not press his Motion to a Division; and I will only say, thanking the House for the patience with which, at this late hour, they have listened to my remarks, I am sure the hon. Member for Monaghan, when he reflects upon it, will regret any words which would bear the interpretation that the Chief Secretary had uttered a word in apology of the offences charged against this man. He did not say a word of apology. All he said, it appeared to me, was that he exercised great care, and great tact, and great discretion in not saying anything that could prejudice the matter, or to prejudice the interests of a man whose case is still before the Courts of Law; and, as I have said before, so far as the particular official with which I am concerned, I believe not an hour's delay will be allowed in bringing the trial or action in which he is involved to a decision.
    MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHYsaid, the Postmaster General had, of course, a technical connection with this matter, but really nothing more. No one supposed for a moment that he would screen any offender from any charge; but this was really a Dublin Castle question entirely. The right hon. Gentleman had said that a Select Committee was the worst of all tribunals to inquire into a charge against any man. He admitted that they might inquire into the conduct of the Government by a Select Committee; but that was the very thing which was asked for by this Motion. They did
    722
    not want to inquire into the guilt or innocence of these men, but into the conduct of the Government, to see whether they had screened these men. His hon. Friend said he had testimony against these men, which testimony could be seen by the Chief Secretary at this moment; and what they now asked of the Government was that they would now set an investigation going. The charge was that there was a mass of corruption festering round Dublin Castle, and they asked the Government to now take steps to have this matter sifted to the bottom. If the Government would give a promise to do so, this Motion would not be pressed to a Division; but without some pledge they could only ask the House of Commons to judge between them and the Government, and on the House of Commons must rest the responsibility of denying justice in a matter of great magnitude.
    Question put.
    The House divided:—Ayes 21; Noes 62: Majority 41.—(Div. List, No. 123.)
    House adjourned at a quarter before Three o'clock.