Commons Sitting of 5 June 1883

Preamble
The House met at Two of the clock.

MINUTES.
WAYS AND MEANS—considered in Committee—Resolution [June 4] reported.
PRIVATE BILL (by Order)—Third Reading— London, Chatham, and Dover Railway.
PUBLIC BILLS—Ordered—Consolidated Fund (No. 3) *.
Ordered—First Reading—Metropolis Improvement Provisional Order (No. 4) * [214].
Second Heading—Local Government Provisional Order (Highways) * [193]; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 5) * [194]; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 8) * [199]; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 9) * [200]; Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) [190].
Select Committee—Report—Parochial Charities (London) * [No. 185].
Committee—Ballot Act Continuance and Amendment [5], debate adjourned.
Report.—Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 3) * [172]; Pier and Harbour Provisional Order (No. 2) * [158]; Tramways (Ireland) Provisional Order (Extension of Time) * [181]; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 2) * [143].
Third Reading—Tramwavs Provisional Orders (No. 2) * [168], and passed.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
  LONDON, CHATHAM, AND DOVER RAILWAY BILL (by Order).

    THIRD READING.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
    MR. PULESTONsaid, he found that this Bill had been referred to a Com-

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    mittee as an unopposed Bill. He had placed a Notice upon the Paper in reference to it; but he found that it was impossible for him, under the circumstances, to proceed with his Amendment, seeing that the Bill was unopposed, and the Chairman of Committees would have no power to insert other clauses. He had also conferred with the hon. and gallant Member for Dover (Major Dickson), who happened to be a Director of the Company; and he had stated to his hon. and gallant Friend that he should not proceed with his Amendment. As he had also stated to other hon. Members of the House that he should not go on with it, it would not be competent for him to move the Amendment now, and he should not do so. It was right, however, that he should say the remarks made by the Chairman of the London, Chatham, and Dover Railway Company, and some of his over-zealous friends in the Press and elsewhere, in reference to the matter, had rendered it difficult for him to maintain the decision lie had come to, to withdraw the Amendment. At the same time, as he considered there was no other course open to him, he should do so; and it was not necessary that he should reply to the remarks of the Chairman of the Company, further than to say that they had no foundation whatever, and he hoped that the hon. and gallant Gentleman would himself be the first to see the propriety of withdrawing statements which were utterly unfounded and unbecoming, and in violation of the Privileges of that House.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Bill read the third time, and passed.

  WINDSOR, ASCOT, AND ALDERSHOT RAILWAY BILL (by Order).

    CONSIDERATION.
    Order for Consideration, as amended, read.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill, as amended, be taken into Consideration upon Thursday."— (Viscount Folkestone.)
    SIR GABRIEL GOLDNEYsaid, he must oppose the Motion, on the ground that it was unnecessary to interpose further delay with the sole object of enabling certain hon. Members to oppose
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    this small Bill, and perhaps, in the end, succeed in destroying the Company promoting it, when the object of the opposition was simply to put pressure upon the larger lines of railway. He thought it was a most unnatural mode of attack upon a railway simply projected as a local line, in order to enable a railway to be constructed between Windsor, Ascot, and Aldershot. He begged to move, as an Amendment, that the Bill he taken into consideration to-morrow.
    Amendment proposed, to leave out the words "upon Thursday," in order to insert the word "To-morrow,"—(Sir Gabriel Goldney,)—instead thereof.
    Question put, "That the words 'upon Thursday,' stand part of the Question."
    The House divided:—Ayes 37; Noes 73: Majority 36.—(Div. List, No. 116.)
    Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.
    Bill, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.

QUESTIONS.

  VACCINATION ACTS—PROSECUTIONS —BRISTOL.
  MR. P. A. TAYLORasked the President of the Local Government Board, Whether he is aware that Mr. C. J. Neale was, on the 24th instant, fined by the Bristol magistrates six pounds and costs for the non-vaccination of six of his children, he having previously paid about ninety pounds in fines and costs for the same children; and, whether he will issue a circular similar to that addressed by the Local Government Board to the Guardians of Evesham in 1875 in deprecation of repeated prosecutions?
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKE,in reply, said, that he was not in a position to state the exact amount of the fines which had been inflicted in this case; but he believed they were of considerable amount, as Mr. Neale had been frequently summoned for non-compliance with the law. The Local Government Board were now considering whether they would send to the Bristol Guardians a Circular similar to that sent in 1875 to the Evesham Guardians in deprecation of those repeated prosecutions.

  INLAND REVENUE—INCOME TAX ON FOREIGN INVESTMENTS.
  MR. MACFARLANEasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, If, on further advice, he adheres to the statement that the case of William Hilton, of Hemel Hempsted, decided in the year 1808, is a precedent in favour of the claim to charge Income Tax upon profits which are not imported into the United Kingdom, or if it is a fact that the case of William Hilton, decided on appeal by the local Income Tax Commissioners, is a precedent against such a claim, and that such decision was never appealed against by the Board of Inland Revenue?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS): Sir, I have looked very carefully into the two cases which I quoted in the debate on the Motion of the hon. Member to amend one of the clauses of the Customs and Inland Revenue Bill. The case of Cankrien, which occurred in 1808, is perfectly clear. He claimed not to be assessed on certain profits made abroad; but his claim was disallowed, and the tax was paid. The case of Hilton, in 1806, was as follows. He had paid the full tax in 1804 and in 1805; but I find that in 1806 the Local Commissioners relieved him from the tax on certain profits made abroad, and desired the particulars as to the year 1805 to be transmitted to the Board in London, with a view to his being allowed a repayment. The Board declined to do so, replying that they were—
  "Not aware that the Commissioners have any authority to remit the duty;"
  and adding—
  "Every trader living in Great Britain is answerable for the whole profits of trade arising in another country."
  I find, however, that the Board had at that time no power to dispute a remission actually made by Local Commissioners. But as to the law there is no question, the words being that the tax is to be levied on—
  "The annual profits or gains arising or accruing to any person residing in the United Kingdom from any kind of property whatever, whether situate in the United Kingdom or elsewhere, and for and in respect of the annual profits or gains arising or accruing to any person residing in the United Kingdom from any profession, trade, employment, or vocation, whether the same shall be respectively carried on in the United Kingdom or elsewhere."

  PREVENTION OF CRIME (IRELAND) ACT, 1882—EXTRA POLICE AT BALLINALOUGH AND KILTULLY.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNORasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether there is any necessity for still retaining the extra police force in the town lands of Ballinalough and Kiltully at an expense of £41 3s. per month over a limited and not very prosperous district; and, whether a police hut, the maintenance of which for a month and a-half has been about £72, is erected at less than half a mile of the village of Kiltully, where there is a police barrack?
  MR. TREVELYAN,in reply, said, that the proclamation under which the extra police were employed in the districts referred to was revoked by the Lord Lieutenant on the 22 ad of last month. The barracks at Kiltully did not afford sufficient accommodation for the men; and it was on this account that it was necessary to erect a hut for them in the locality.

  ARMY—ROYAL WARRANT, 1882 —PENSIONS OF OFFICERS' WIDOWS.
  COLONEL ALEXANDERasked the Secretary of State for War, with reference to paragraph I. of Article 1008, of the Royal Warrant of 1882, for Pay and Promotion, If he can state what is the amount of income which would preclude the widows of officers of each rank from receiving pensions?
  SIR ARTHUR HAYTER: Sir, as this is a question of finance, perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for South Ayrshire will permit me to reply for the Secretary of State. The definition of "wealthy circumstances" in Sub-section 1,008 of the Pay Warrant, which relates to the pensions for widows of deceased officers, is governed by "a scale of means," which has been drawn up to insure uniformity in the practice of the War Office in awarding such pensions. The actual amount of income which would preclude the widow of an officer in any rank from receiving a pension has always, I think, been regarded as confidential, for reasons which my hon. and gallant Friend will appreciate. The rules governing the amount of income to which I alluded may be varied at any time; and their application is strictly within the discretion of the Se-

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  cretary of State. It is not, therefore, in my power, nor do I think it would be desirable, to publish them.

  LAW AND POLICE—THOMAS JONES, A CONVICT.
  MR. STEWART MACLIVERasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, If his attention has been called to the ease of Thomas Jones, a convict tried at Exeter and sentenced to 15 years' penal servitude, for assaulting a warder at Dartmoor; whether he will direct an inquiry into the conduct of the deputy governor which was censured by Baron Huddleston; whether, pending the inquiry, he would remove the convict to another prison; and, whether an examination into the mental condition of the convict will be made?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT,in reply, said, that this matter had been carefully investigated; and he had directed an inquiry into the conduct of the Deputy Governor which had been censured by Mr. Baron Huddleston. The convict had been removed to another prison, and a medical inquiry into his mental condition had been made. It had been found that, although there was no absolute insanity, the man was of a low type.

  THE IRISH LAND COMMISSION (SUBCOMMISSIONERS)—GALWAY.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNORasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If the Sub-Commissioners at Galway refused to hear forty-two cases, because the tenants had changed their solicitor in the period between the originating notice and the time fixed for the hearing of the case; and, whether the Sub-Commissioner is justified in refusing to hear cases between landlord and tenants because of a disputed claim with a third party?
  MR. TREVELYAN: Sir, I have received a Report from the Land Commissioners, from which it appears that, after much discussion, the' cases were adjourned, because the tenants refused to pay the solicitor whom they had first retained, and who was entitled, under Rule 36, to claim his costs before the cases were proceeded with, and the tenants had not given the notice of change required by the Rule. The action of the Sub-Commission was
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  justified under the Rule mentioned. The cases have been again listed for the present sittings, and will be disposed of within the next few days.

  IRELAND—THE BOWLING GREEN MILLS (GALWAY) COMPENSATION CASE.
  MR T. P. O'CONNORasked the Secretary to the Treasury, If he is willing to reconsider the claims to compensation from the Treasury of the proprietors of the Bowling Green Mills; whether, in the inquiry into the grievances complained of by the Galway millers, the case of this mill was excluded, as Colonel Smith held that he was precluded from going back to a period anterior to 1871; whether, by the action of the Board, of Works, Miss Burke, the head landlord, has been deprived, without any compensation, of a rental of sixty-three pounds; and, whether he is ready to carry out the promise make to Miss Burke's representative that the whole question would be submitted to arbitration?
  MR. COURTNEY: Sir, the case to which this Question refers is a very complicated one, and imposssible to explain within the limits of an Answer. It has been repeatedly considered by successive Secretaries to the Treasury, and it could not now be re-opened. It is possible that Miss Burke has suffered some loss in connection with those mills, although I can say nothing as to its amount; but this is a case where loss must be suffered all round. The Exchequer has been a heavy loser. In the last three years £1,500 has been written off in respect of these two mills alone, besides other sums previously remitted. No promise has been given to re-open the question.

  BOARD OR TRADE—THE COMMITTEE ON LIGHTHOUSE ILLUMINANTS.
  COLONEL KING-HARMANasked the President of the Board of Trade, Whether it is true that Sir James Douglas, having been excluded by the Board of Trade from acting on the Committee on Lighthouse Illuminants, on the ground of his having a direct interest in the matters to be investigated, was afterwards appointed a Member of the said Committee; whether, about the same time, the brother of Sir James Douglas

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  and Doctor Hopkinson, Optical Engineer, who is in the employment of Trinity House, were also appointed to the said Committee; whether the proceeding of the said Committee practically came to a dead lock; whether, in consequence of the constitution of the Committee, Professor Tyndal retired; whether the Commissioners of Irish Lights, after having made strong remonstrances as to its constitution,, have withdrawn their representatives from the Committee on Lighthouse Illuminants; and, whether he will have any objection to place before the House, in addition to the Papers he has already promised, the whole of the Correspondence between Professor Tyndal, the Board of Trade, the Commissioners of Northern Lighthouses, and the Commissioners of Irish Lights, which has taken place since the inquiry was first instituted in 1881, and also the proceedings of the Illuminants Committee, up to the time of its last sitting on the 18th instant?
  MR. CHAMBERLAIN: Sir, the hon. and gallant Member seems to be misinformed as to some of his facts. This Committee, although nominally appointed by the Board of Trade, consists chiefly of representatives who have been selected, at the request of the Board, by the several lighthouse authorities. It was originally proposed that both Sir James Douglas and Mr. Wigham should be excluded from voting on the Committee, as first constituted, on the ground of their having pecuniary interest in the matters to be investigated; and they were, consequently, not regarded as Members of the Committee. The Chairman of the Committee, early in the present year, represented that this had led to complications tending to hinder the progress of the arrangements for the experiments; and asked, in addition, that the Committee might be enlarged, as the small number of Members, and the distance from London at which some of them resided, caused a difficulty in obtaining a quorum. The Board of Trade consequently agreed that both Sir James Douglas and Mr. Wigham should be Members of the Committee, and that each of the three Lighthouse Boards should be represented by one of their own body and by their engineer. Mr. William Douglas is the Engineer of the Irish Board, and is a brother of Sir James Douglas, who is Engineer to the
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  English Board. Dr. Hopkinson was added to the Committee, as having given special attention to the electric light and its most recent developments; and I am informed that there is no ground for the suggestion that he is in the employment of the Trinity House. Mr. Vernon Harcourt was to represent the Board of Trade. All the Members were to be on an equal footing as to voting; and as the names of Members voting were to be recorded, any interest which individual Members might have would be duly weighed. I have before stated that, to my regret, Professor Tyndal retired in consequence of his dissatisfaction with the constitution of the enlarged Committee. Since the enlarged Committee have commenced their deliberations, the Commissioners of Irish Lights have made to the Board of Trade two complaints of the proceedings, in the last of which they intimated that they would withdraw from the experiments. These complaints have been referred to the Committee for their observations, which have not yet been received. I cannot think that it is advisable that the proceedings of this Committee should be published piecemeal. All the Correspondence in my Department—112 letters—which has taken place since the inquiry was first instituted in 1881, up to the day the House rose for the Whitsun Recess, has been printed and circulated.
  COLONEL KING-HARMANsaid, that, without the slightest wish to say anything against Dr. Hopkinson, he would wish to know whether Dr. Hopkinson did not manufacture the whole of the optical apparatus for the Trinity House?
  MR. CHAMBERLAIN: That is not the case. He is the scientific adviser of Messrs. Chance, Brothers, glass manufacturers in the neighbourhood of Birmingham; and Messrs. Chance were the contractors to Trinity House.
  MR. LEAasked whether the labours of the Committee had concluded, or would conclude by the close of the Session?
  MR. CHAMBERLAIN: I think it is extremely improbable. What I hope is, that the Committee will continue its work, and the Irish Lights Commissioners will not withdraw from the Committee; and if then the experiments are carried out they will necessarily involve a considerable time.

  INDIA—LAW AND JUSTICE—BABOO SOORENDRO NATH BANNERJEE.
  MR. MACFARLANEasked the Under Secretary of State for India, If Baboo Soorendro Nath Bannerjee, who has been sentenced to two months' imprisonment for contempt of Court in Calcutta, is the same person who was dismissed from the Bengal Civil Service, in 1874, for conduct which Sir George Campbell, then Lieutenant Governor of Bengal, described as "dishonest and fraudulent;" and, whether the same person has been appointed an honorary magistrate in Calcutta?
  MR. J. K. CROSS: Yes, Sir; Baboo Soorendro Nath Bannerjee is the person who was dismissed from the Bengal Civil Service on the recommendation of the Government of India by the Secretary of State in 1874; and it appears from The Calcutta Gazette that last September he was appointed an honorary magistrate in Calcutta.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNORasked whether Bannerjee was not a person of great influence amongst his own race and creed?
  MR. J. K. CROSS: I believe he is a gentleman of very great influence.
  MR. ASHMEAD- BARTLETTinquired whether this person would be empowered, under Mr. Ilbert's Bill, to try Europeans for criminal offences?
  MR. J. K. CROSS: I am unable to reply to that Question.
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLasked whether it was not the case that Mr. Ilbert's Bill would not in the least degree affect the jurisdiction of honorary magistrates in Calcutta; and, whether, as a matter of fact, honorary magistrates sat in jurisdiction on Europeans quite independent of that Bill?
  MR. J. K. CROSS: Certainly; that is so.

  POST OFFICE—POSTAL SERVICE (SCOTLAND).
  MR. CRAIG-SELLAR (for Lord COLIN CAMPBELL)asked the Postmaster General, Whether it is the case that an application for alterations in the postal service of Campbeltown was seven months under consideration; whether such delay is not uncommon in connection with the Post Office inquiries in Scotland; whether such delays result from permitting no changes to be made
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  by the Post Office Department in Edinburgh without the sanction of the Postmaster General; and, whether he will take into consideration the question of establishing a more expeditious system of inquiry and supervision in Scotland?
  MR. FAWCETT,in reply, said, it was the case that this application had been some months under consideration. The proposal involved a considerable outlay of public money, and it was necessary to carefully investigate the subject. He did not think there had been any unnecessary delay, nor did he think any advantage would be gained from the change in administration suggested.

  PROSECUTION OF OFFENCES ACT, 1879 —"THE QUEEN v. TAYLOR AND BOYNES."
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLasked Mr. Attorney General, If he is satisfied that the conduct of the Public Prosecutor in regard to the question of the prosecution of Peter F. Taylor and E. S. Boynes was right, both in matter and in manner, and that the Public Prosecutor has, in this and other cases, sufficiently fulfilled the functions for which he was appointed under the provisions of 42 and 43 Vic. c. 22, and the rules made in accordance with that Statute; and, if he has received any additional information causing him to modify his statement that it was "difficult to disregard the presentment or recommendation made by the Grand Jury," since the Public Prosecutor has been permitted wholly to disregard that recommendation?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES),in reply, said, that, as regarded the first part of the Question, he hoped his lion. Friend would forgive him if he declined to express any opinion as to the "manner" of the Public Prosecutor in any individual case; but as to the substance of the Question, he had received an explanation from the Public Prosecutor, in reply to a letter which he had written, which was of such a nature that he saw no reason to interfere with the discretion which the Public Prosecutor had already exercised in the case in deciding that it was not a case in which he ought to conduct the prosecution. The whole matter of the performance of the duties of the office of Public Prosecutor was one of great delicacy, and his position was not of a very satisfactory nature. His right hon. and

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  learned Friend the Home Secretary had already appointed a Departmental Committee to inquire into the position occupied by the Public Prosecutor, and to see whether any improvement could be made in that position, and to report to the House.
  MR. R. H. PAGETasked whether the Attorney General would lay on the Table a Return showing the number of applications made to the Public Prosecutor to interfere in criminal cases, and the result of such applications?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES)said, a Paper had already been printed which gave a good deal of information; but a Return of the applications—many hundreds in number—would involve great expense. There would be no objection, however, to present the general results of the action of the Public Prosecutor if a Return of them were moved for.

  PARLIAMENT—BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE—THE HALF-PAST TWELVE O'CLOCK RULE—BLOCKING.
  COLONEL KING-HARMANwished to put a Question to the Speaker upon a point of Order. On Wednesday last there was a Bill upon the Order Book of the House, called the Sites and Places for Public Worship (Ireland) Bill. That Bill was not proceeded with, and as the Clerk at the Table stated that he had received no instructions with regard to it the Order was dropped. In the list of Public Bills issued on the following Monday, the Bill appeared as a dropped Order. But early that (Tuesday) morning, about 1 o'clock, or thereabouts, he was informed that an application was made to place the Bill upon the Order Book again, and permission was given; the consequence being that the Bill appeared on the Order Books of the day for this evening. What he wished to call particular attention to was the fact that Notice of opposition had previously been given to the measure, so as to prevent its being brought on after half-past 12; but it now appeared upon the Paper without that Notice of opposition, because no opportunity had been afforded to Members who objected to the Bill to place their Notice of opposition upon the Paper again. He wished to ask the Speaker if the Bill could be taken after half-past 12, he (Colonel King-Harman)
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  having now given a distinct Notice of opposition to it?
  MR. WARTONsaid, that, before the Speaker answered the Question, he wished to say that he had also opposed the Bill. He had carefully looked through the list of Bills issued on Monday, and he found that this appeared as a dropped Order; and, therefore, he had not renewed his Notice of opposition to it. But if this sort of practice were to be allowed to go on, it would be in the power of any hon. Member to profess to drop a Bill, and then, by some private Notice unknown to the House, to revive it and place it upon the Paper again.
  MR. SPEAKER: This Bill was appointed for to-day in the ordinary way, by a Question put from the Chair; and the proceeding is quite regular. The point raised by the hon. and gallant Member is, no doubt, one of great importance. At the same time, I am bound to interpret the Rules strictly, and in accordance with their literal meaning; and, having regard to the Standing Order, I am bound to say that this Bill is no longer blocked, and as it is no longer blocked, it may be brought on after half-past 12 o'clock to-night.
  MR. GIBSONsaid, the matter was one of considerable importance. He understood that under the old Rules, if a Bill were dropped, and were afterwards revived, the block was revived with it. [Cries of"No!"] He had asked the question, and made an inquiry; and he was given to understand that the block lasted until it was withdrawn by the Member who put it down. The block, unless it was renewed, simply died; and in the case of a blocked Order there was nothing to prevent a practical evasion of the Rules of the House. A Member might drop his Bill, and then put it down again without a block; and although it might have been blocked, not by one Member, but by half-a-dozen, it could be brought forward without any Notice of opposition to it—a palpable evasion of the instructions of the House. The consequence of this might be that a Member, seeing that objection was entertained to his Bill, might quietly allow it to become a dropped Order until the end of July or the beginning of August, when every Member who took an interest in opposing it had left the House. He would then be able to revive the Bill, and get it run through

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  without opposition. Surely the House ought to have some power of guarding itself against what would be a great violation of the decencies of legislation. And if, through some oversight, a Bill was now placed in this position, he ventured to ask the Speaker if it would not be more in accordance with the convenience of the House, as well as with the proprieties of legislation, that if it were desired to revive an Order, after it had once been dropped, that course should be taken with distinct and open Notice to the House, so that there should be abundant and reasonable Notice given to the House in order to prevent what might be—ho would not say a trick— but what might be used in an extreme case as a trick, and what might often cause surprise.
  MR. RAIKESsaid, that, before the Speaker answered the Question, he wished to put a further Question. The Standing Order made on the 18th February, 1879, as amended on the 9th of May, and 17th and 20th of November, 1882, was as follows:—
  "That, except for a Money Bill, no Order of the Day or Notice of Motion be taken after half-past Twelve of the clock at night; with respect to which Order or Notice of Motion a Notice of Opposition, or Amendment, shall have been printed on the Notice Paper; or, if such Notice of Motion shall only have been given, the next previous day of sitting, and objection shall be taken when such Notice is called."
  He understood that this, being an Order of the Day, did not fall within the express terms of this Standing Order; but he would venture to ask the Speaker whether, having regard to the evident intention of the House, in making express provision for Notices of Motion only to be taken, of which such Notice of Motion should have been given the next previous day, his hon. and gallant Friend would not be in Order in taking objection to the Order of the Day being proceeded with, and asking the Speaker to rule upon it?
  MR. SPEAKER: I cannot say that the hon. and gallant Member would be in Order, because the Standing Order applies solely to Notices of Motion. It does not apply to Orders of the Day; and therefore I should not consider that the Bill, being an Order of the Day, comes within the operation of the Half-past 12 o'clock Rule. I do not know how this inconvenience can be remedied, unless, when the Order of the Day is
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  called on, it is proposed that such Order of the Day be postponed. The House knows that an Order of the Day can be moved by any Member of the House; and an Order becomes dropped when no Member makes a Motion thereon.
  MR. GIBSONasked if it was possible to arrange that Notice should be given of the intention of an hon. Member to revive a dropped Order, by such Member going to the Table and giving the Notice just before the Motion that the House should adjourn? In that way a dropped Order would be revived in a formal manner. He would ask, with due deference, whether it would not be within the competence of the Speaker to require that some more reasonable Notice should be given of even a day?
  MR. COURTNEYwished to remind the House that in the last Parliament a similar question arose in regard to the application of the Twelve o'clock Rule. It arose in the course of a Bill promoted by his right hon. Friend the Vice President of the Council (Mr. Mundella). The Bill had become a dropped Order, together with a Notice of opposition, which had been given by the hon. Member for South Leicestershire (Mr. Pell). It was, however, revived without the Notice of opposition. When the Bill came on, the Speaker commented upon the course which had been taken; and on the strength of his observations, on an appeal being made to his right hon. Friend, he did not press the Bill that night. That showed that the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. Gibson) was wrong in supposing that there had been any change in the mode of procedure, or any modification of the Rule. It was quite evident that when the Bill was revived the block was not revived with it.
  MR. SPEAKER: I should be quite ready to comply with the instructions of the House; but, at the same time, I should not venture to insist upon Notice being given of the revival of a dropped Order, without receiving instruction to that effect from the House.
  MR. WARTONsaid, he had no wish to dispute any question which arose out of the Speaker's ruling; but he would ask, for the information of the House, whether, when a Bill appeared on the list as a dropped Order, something might not be done to make it still competent for an hon. Member to renew his Notice

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  of opposition, so that the Bill should not be revived without the block? If he saw standing in the list of Bills which wore dropped Orders, a Bill against which he had given Notice of opposition, could he also put down the Notice of opposition on the chance of the Bill being revived upon some future day?
  MR. SPEAKER: I do not think the hon. and learned Member would be in Order in giving Notice of opposition to a Bill that is dropped.
  MR. W. H. SMITHwished to make an appeal to the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House. It was quite evident that, in the existing state of things, it was possible for a Rule, which was intended for the protection of the House, to be evaded by an hon. Member in charge of a Bill. It was quite possible that a Bill might be dropped intentionally, and revived again the next day, with the Notice of opposition which originally stood against it having been got rid of. He did not say that that course would be taken, but that it was quite possible for it to be taken. He, therefore, wished to make an appeal to the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House, who was responsible, in a great measure, for the conduct of the Business of the House, to take the matter into his consideration, with a view of preventing any future irregularity. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would propose such an alteration of the Rules as would, at all events, secure fairness between all Parties. If it was in the power of an hon. Member to give Notice of opposition to a measure, and prevent the Bill thus opposed from being taken into consideration after a certain hour of the night, then it appeared to him that that Notice should live for the same length of time after the Bill was restored to the Order Book, as it would have done, if the Bill had not become a "dropped Order." If, for instance, the block remained against a Bill for a week or 10 days, then the Notice of opposition should live for the same time. He understood that the reason for allowing the block was to secure that any measure brought forward should receive consideration at a proper hour of the evening.
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid, he thought that all who had heard the conversation must be of opinion that there was clearly
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  a block at present which required to be touched in some way or other, in order to prevent evasion and the dropping of a measure to get rid of opposition. He was of opinion that they ought not to encourage such a practice; but they ought, on the contrary, if possible, to prevent it. Then, in regard to the proceedings of that night, he thought they had had an admirable precedent afforded by the judicious conduct of the Speaker in the last Parliament, when the right hon. Gentleman pointed out the inconvenience of proceeding with a Bill which had been dropped, and then suddenly revived, without the Notice of opposition being revived with it. In that case the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill felt that, under the circumstances, he could hardly persevere with the measure. With regard to the suggestion that Notice should be given before reviving a dropped Order, that might be a fair suggestion, if it were applicable only to those Orders which were dropped artificially, so to speak, and intentionally; but he was doubtful what its effect might be with regard to Orders that were dropped accidentally from the unexpected interruption of the Sitting of the House, As to the suggestion made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Westminster (Mr. W. H. Smith) that the block should be made to adhere to the Bill, notwithstanding the Bill becoming a dropped Order, as long as the Bill continued on the Order Book it appeared to him that it deserved consideration; and he should be willing to ask the aid of the Speaker, and of the other Authorities of the House, with a view to see what arrangements could be made.
  MR. BERESFORD HOPEwished to ask a Question on a point of Order. He understood the contention to be that a dropped Order was not a dead Order, but a living Order in a certain sense, though in a state of suspended animation. He wished to know whether there was any Order of the House on the subject, or whether it was simply a usage which had grown up, that the Notice of block should disappear from the Paper on the Order being dropped? If that were not so—but the Notice of opposition still possessed a relative and satellite life—it would be very easy for the Speaker to deal with the question, and to direct the printers to print with the dropped Order

  1755
  the Notice of opposition which had been given to it. That might easily be done unless there was a special Order to the contrary, of which he was certainly not aware.
  MR. GIBSONdesired to say a word in regard to what the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister had said. Although it was a very cumbrous way of overcoming the difficulty, the matter might be met in this way. A Bill was not dead when it became dropped, but was in a state of suspended animation; and it might be revived by the method which had been adopted in this particular case. Supposing, then, the analogy was followed which was applied to the Adjournment for the Whitsuntide Holidays, the period during which the Bill remained suspended should be excluded from the period that would count against the block, and then, when the Bill was revived, the block would revive with it. That would be one way of dealing with the difficulty. He would only remind the House that the last Adjournment for the Whitsuntide Holidays lasted for more than 10 days; and the right hon. Gentleman in the Chair very wisely decided that the block placed against certain Bills should extend over that period. From the necessities of the case, and for the convenience of the House, the Speaker was compelled to exclude the days comprised in the Holidays. The same convenience might suggest that the period covered by the suspended animation should be also excluded from the operation of the block. That might be one mode of getting out of the difficulty. The only other mode which occurred to him would be still more cumbrous and did not commend itself to his mind in the same persuasive way—namely, provided that inasmuch as a Bill was not dead, but only in that extraordinary position with the power of being revived, it should be competent for a Member to give also Notice of block, with the same power of reviving it in the event of a dropped Bill being revived. He admitted that that would not be a very convenient mode of dealing with the matter, but still it could be adopted; because, if a Bill was not dead and might be revived, then the objection which had been made to it might be revived with it.
  EARL PERCYsaid, that, with regard to what had fallen from the right hon. and
  1756
  learned Gentleman, there was a great difference between an Adjournment of the House and a dropped Order. The Adjournment for the Whitsuntide Holidays was a certain quantity. They all knew how long it would last, and could calculate how long the block would last; whereas, in the case of a dropped Order, the Notice naturally expired, and unless an hon. Member was constantly on the watch for the dropped Order being revived his block would be suspended. That was an entirely different case from the Adjournment for the Whitsuntide Holidays.
  MR. ANDERSONasked whether it would not be something in the nature of a trick for any Member intentionally to allow his Bill to become a revived Order in that way? Would that not be something in the nature of a trick which no hon. Member would resort to? It was quite clear that the proper thing to do, in the case of a Member wishing to revive a dropped Order, was to provide that the dropped Order should be revived in exactly the same position it was in when it was dropped with all its disabilities attached to it.

  POST OFFICE (CONTRACTS)—THE IRISH MAIL SERVICE.
  MR. M. BROOKSsaid, the first four Questions upon the Notice Paper were in the name of the hon. Member for Carlow (Mr. Gray); and as the hon. Member was not present he wished to put the first of these Questions to the Postmaster General. The Question stood in the following terms:—
  "To ask the Postmaster General, whether ha will afford the House an opportunity of discussing the terms of the new Postal Contract for conveying- mails between London and Dublin, tenders for which are to be sent on or before 11th of July next?"
  MR. T. P. O'CONNORwished to ask the Speaker if it was in Order for an hon. Member to ask Questions standing in the name of another hon. Member without having, in the first instance, obtained the permission of the hon. Member who had placed the Question upon the Paper.
  MR. SPEAKER: It has been the general practice of the House—and the House has always concurred in that practice—that no hon. Member should put a Question standing in the name of another Member unless requested

  1757
  to do so by that Member. Therefore, the Question now proposed to be put by the ton. Member for Dublin (Mr. M. Brooks) cannot be put, except by the indulgence of the House.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid, he would not have noticed it, if he had not understood that the hon. Member for Carlow (Mr. Gray) was in London; and the Question might very well stand over until to-morrow, when the hon. Member would be in his place.
  MR. FAWCETT: Sir, the Question is of so much public interest that I am quite ready to answer; and I think it will be convenient if I answer the hon. Member for Carlow's four Questions together. In answer to the first Question, I beg to say that full opportunity will be afforded to the House of discussing the terms of the new Postal Contract as soon as possible after the tenders have been received. In answer to the second Question, I may say that my attention has not been drawn to the advertisement to which the hon. Member refers; but that, inasmuch as the London and North-Western Company, equally with the City of Dublin Steam Packet Company, are bound, under the contract still in force, to effect the conveyance and deliver of the Irish mails within a specified time, the interests of the Public Service appear in this matter to be sufficiently protected. With regard to the third Question, it has been assumed that whatever contractors may, after the expiration of the present contract, be employed to carry the mails between Holyhead and Kingstown, the London and North-Western Railway Company will afford facilities for passenger traffic by the mail trains, and in connection with the mail boats. But, in order to avoid any misconception, there is no objection to state that it will be made a condition of any contract for the conveyance of the Irish mails between London and Holyhead that passengers shall be carried by the mail trains, and that through booking arrangements shall be made between the London and North-Western Railway Company and any contractors for the sea service. With reference to the fares to be charged by the London and North-Western Railway Company, the hon. Member is, no doubt, aware that these fares cannot be raised above the maximum rates specified in the Acts of the Company. He is, no doubt, also aware
  1758
  that litigation has taken place on the subject between the Dublin Steam Packet Company and the London and North Western Railway Company. Under these circumstances, there seems to be some difficulty in interfering with the ordinary course of the law. But the matter shall be carefully considered, with a view to securing, as far as possible, that no inconvenience is caused to passengers. In answer to the fourth Question of the hon. Member, the terms of the tenders for the new contract contemplate the contingency of the new contractors for the sea service not being ready to commence on the 1st of October; and in view of such contingency steps have been taken, as the public advertisement will show, to provide for a temporary service until such time as the contractors can commence the full service.
  MR. GIBSON: As this question attracts great interest and also considerable uneasiness in Ireland, particularly in reference to the closing words of the right hon. Gentleman, I would like to be quite clear as to when this matter is be brought under the notice of Parliament for discussion. The date for receiving tenders was the 11th of July. Now, we all know that a discussion brought on in Parliament in August, when, I hope, we will be all thinking of going home, is not likely to be a very lively discussion, or to be attended with very great advantage to anyone. What I would like to know is whether, when the Government selected July 11 as the date for receiving the tenders, was it with the intention that the discussion should take place while there was a full attendance of Members?
  MR. FAWCETT: Sir, I am free to confess that there is considerable difficulty in fixing the particular date for receiving tenders. I recognize, on the one hand, that we ought, if possible, to secure a proper discussion before the House will become empty. But I feel, on the other hand, that if too short a time were fixed for receiving tenders, intending contracting parties would say that they had no reasonable opportunity of making tenders. And, therefore, after careful consultation with those who were practically acquainted with the subject, we came to the conclusion that in order to secure the advantages of anything like open competition the

  1759
  11th July is not too early a date. The only assurance I can give the House is this—that the very moment the tenders are received, not an hour shall be lost in giving them most careful, consideration, and coming to a decision as rapidly as possible. And as soon as that decision has been come to, although I have no authority to state what the Business arrangements of the House may be, I think I am not going too far in saying that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, recognizing the importance of the subject, will do all in his power to allow the subject to be discussed as early as possible.
  MR. M. BROOKSsaid, he desired one word of explanation. The fact was, he had prepared a Question of similar import to that standing in the name of the hon. Member for Carlow (Mr. Gray); but as he thought he would have no opportunity of putting it to-day he had not placed it on the Paper.

  RAILWAYS (IRELAND)—WEST CLARE RAILWAY.
  MR. KENNYasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, If his attention has been called to the following remarks reported in The Clare Examiner as having been made by Mr. Richard Stackpoole, J.P., at the County Clare Presentment Sessions, held at Ennis, on Tuesday, May 22—
  "Mr. Stackpoole,—As I see it is the wish of the people I will sign it (i.e., the contract for the Ennis and West Glare Railway) when I see my co-directors. We took the greatest possible trouble in this matter. We had an interview with the Lord Lieutenant, and went to London and saw Mr. Childers, who said the contract was an immoral one."
  Whether it is a fact that the right hon. Gentleman has used the expression attributed to him; and, if so, whether he has any objection to state the grounds upon which he based the assertions?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS): Sir, I have to say that in the long interview which I had with the Directors and officials of the West Clare Railway I do not remember that the word "immoral" was used by myself, or by anyone else, as applicable to their contemplated contract. The facts, as stated to me, were as follows:—The Railway would be 26½ miles long and be constructed on the 3 feet
  1760
  gauge, and its cost in cash would be about £150,000. I was informed that by the Act under which it was proposed to be constructed, the capital was to be £255,000, of which £95,000 were to be ordinary shares of little value, £75,000 shares, the interest on which would be guaranteed by certain baronies, and £85,000, debenture capital, to be lent by Her Majesty's Government. The contractor, whose name was not disclosed, would take the whole shares, guaranteed or not, and the amount lent by the Government. I said on behalf of Her Majesty's Government that I would be no party to an arrangement of this kind, but that if the capital was to be £150,000 —that is to say, £100,000 share capital guaranteed by the baronies, and £50,000 loan capital—I would favourably consider any recommendation by the Irish Board of Works to lend the £50,000 on the usual terms.

  PARLIAMENT—BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE—LABOURERS (IRELAND) BILL.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNORasked, Whether the Chief Secretary for Ireland was ready to state the course the Government proposed to adopt with regard to the Labourers (Ireland) Bill, which was placed on the Paper for to-morrow?
  MR. TREVELYANsaid, that in the remarks which he made on Wednesday last he named a fortnight as the minimum time which would be required for the Government to agree upon the Amendments, which were of so important a nature that they would amount to something like a reconstruction of the Bill on certain points. He understood that the hon. Gentleman named to-morrow with the intention of postponing the Bill for another week, if he (Mr. Trevelyan) desired it. Any obstruction placed in the way of the Bill by a private Member had been done on his own responsibility, and, no, doubt, for very good reasons, but without the approval of the Government.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid, that an hon. Member, with characteristic meddlesomeness, had put down a blocking Notice; and he wished to know from the Chief Secretary whether the Government intended to adopt any such course towards the Bill?
  MR. TREVELYANsaid, the Government did not intend to take that course,

  1761
  and he rather protested against the hon. Member's description of the blocking Notice. He could very well understand, as this was an extremely important Bill, some hon. Members putting down such a Notice from a desire that the Bill should receive the very fullest discussion. There was a distinct understanding the other day that if the Government saw its way to adopt the Bill, with certain Amendments which he would propose, the Government would be quite satisfied to take it very late at night. The hon. Member who put down the blocking Notice might not have been aware of that proposal on the part of the Government. But that was the course which the Government wished to pursue with regard to the Bill, and they would use their influence with other hon. Members in order that that course might be adopted.
  MR. BUCHANANasked the Chief Secretary if lie would allow the House to see the Amendments which he intended to propose, and give opportunities for full discussion?
  MR. TREVELYANreplied, that he considered this Bill as of very serious importance. In the present state of Business they would be obliged to take it very late at night. The only Irish Bills which the House had considered this Session had been taken late at night, and the discussion was ample, and conducted in a business-like manner. Whatever hour the Labourers' Bill came on, the Government intended it should have full discussion.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid, that if he might enter into an undertaking, he would frankly co-operate with the right hon. Gentleman in any course he might adopt to further the Bill. He asked whether by that course he would be precluded from bringing it on late at night?
  MR. TREVELYAN: The hon. Gentleman will consult his own duty in the matter.
  MR. BUCHANANinquired if the Chief Secretary would place his Amendments on the Notice Paper before Committee stage was reached, so as to secure an adequate discussion of the Bill at that stage?
  MR. TREVELYAN: Yes; certainly.
  COLONEL KING-HARMANsaid, that while he was very anxious to see the Bill carried, he certainly did not under-
  1762
  stand the right hon. Gentleman to say that he would take the Bill at a late hour. ["Order!"]
  MR. SPEAKERinterposed, and the hon. Member, being out of Order, resumed his seat.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
  AGRICULTURAL HOLDINGS SCOT-(LAND) BILL.— [BILL 190.]
  (The Lord Advocate, Mr. Solicitor General for Scotland.)
  AGRICULTURAL HOLDINGS SCOT-(LAND) BILL.— [BILL 190.]

    SECOND READING.
    Order for Second Reading read.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(The Lord Advocate.)
    SIR HERBERT MAXWELLsaid, he thought that if Scotch Members were inclined to complain of the manner in which Scotch Business was transacted in this House, they would have a grievance on the present occasion. A most important question had been raised, affecting the whole agricultural interest of England and Scotland. One would suppose, in common fairness, that the question relating to Scotland would have been given the same prominence as was given to the same question respecting England. But that had not been the case; for whereas the English Agricultural Holdings Bill was put down as the first Order upon a Government night, the Scotch Bill was only put down as the second Order last night. Scotch Members were kept waiting in uncertainty until a comparatively late hour, and now the Bill was almost flung at their heads without a word of explanation from the Government. Therefore they approached, or might approach, the consideration of this measure in a very unfavourable mood, as they had no official knowledge of the provisions of the Bill. They would be referred, no doubt, to a great deal that had been said in the promotion of the English Bill as applicable to this measure; but, for his part, he thought it would have been a preferable mode of procedure if one Bill had been devised for the two countries, with such variations in the clauses as might be called for by the difference in the laws of the two countries. He was glad, however, to have an opportunity of considering the Bill, even at this comparatively late

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    period of the Session. Any remarks as to the details of the Bill which might suggest themselves to hon. Members would, he thought, be better deferred for discussion in Committee. Therefore, the few remarks he should offer for consideration would refer rather to the general principles involved in the Bill, and its general effect upon land tenure in Scotland. He supposed that among the many promises entered into by candidates for Parliamentary honours at the late General Election, none flowed more glibly from the tongue, none commended themselves more to the honest judgment of those who made them, and none were more acceptable to those who heard them, than the promises made to support a measure to secure the farmer in the outlay of his capital, and to give compensation for unexhausted improvements. Agriculture at that time was, perhaps, at the depth of depression. The sympathies of every class of the community had been extended towards the farmers, and any practical means of relieving them, consistent with prudence and expediency, had been discussed and considered by every class of the community. As was usual in times of perplexity and difficulty, there had been a plethora of advice. A host of plans had been suggested, and some that seemed to many of them to have a very small practical bearing upon the question at issue. Advantage had been taken of the state of matters that prevailed to recommend the abolition of long-established customs, which had not been thought inimical or deleterious to the farming interest. But even those of them who could not approve of the movement for abolishing the Law of Primogeniture or the Law of Entail, not seeing how farming was to be affected by the abolition of these laws, had thoroughly agreed that, if a sound measure could be provided to protect farmers against loss, to prevent landlords gathering where they had not strawed, they were all of one mind and one voice in promising their support to a measure of that description. He supposed there never was an abstract proposition made which commanded such universal consent as that a farmer should have reasonable security in the outlay of his capital, and that his improvements should not be confiscated either by the landlord or by the incoming tenant. It was only when the
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    question came to be practically considered and discussed that its magnitude, its complexity, and its innumerable dangers and perplexities loomed upon them. He recognized in this Bill, as drawn by the Government, an honest, and in many respects a skilful, attempt to deal with a most complicated question; but he would ask the leave of the House to point out one or two directions in which he thought it might be improved, and one or two respects in which he was bound to say he thought it objectionable. Of the many suggested improvements connected with this question of compensation for unexhausted outlay, the plans proposed grouped themselves into two classes. The first, which been ably propounded and supported by many attractive arguments, was that of mulcting the landlord of a proportion of any increased rent obtained at the beginning of a new lease; and the second group of plans based the proposed compensation on the ground of the tenant's original outlay. It seemed to him that the framers of this Bill had adopted neither of these plans. The 1st clause proposed that the compensation should be in proportion to the benefit received by the incoming tenant. There was no reference whatever to the original outlay by the old tenant. He thought a little consideration would show that this was not a practicable or a fair proposal. The compensation of the old tenant should surely be based upon the original sum of which he was out of pocket by the original improvement, and diminished by so much as the improvement had ceased to be of value. As to mulcting the landlord of a portion of any increase of rent which might be obtained on account of the rise in value of the farm, he thought Government had done well to abandon that suggestion. Although he thought it would probably have turned out in the end to be less costly to the landlords, as a class, than either the present proposal of the Government, or the second alternative he had mentioned—namely, basing it on the original outlay of the tenant—still it would be so difficult to discriminate between the rise in value caused by the improvements of the tenants and by other circumstances which constantly affected agriculture, that it would have ended in a very complicated state of things. What he wanted to impress

    1765
    upon the Government was this—that it was most important that Clause 1 should be altered so that no compensation should be awarded to any tenant greater than his original outlay. He did not suppose that any respectable tenant would ask or expect that; but very often under the proposed clause it would be granted. He would give the House an instance that affected himself. Some years ago there was erected on a farm on his property some buildings which cost £270. The agreement was that the tenant was to be compensated at the end of the lease. That agreement was modified upon a new lease being entered into by the tenant continuing the occupation of the holding and of the buildings, and the compensation was deferred till the end of another lease of 19 years. Well, the tenant died, the lease continued, and when the second lease came to an end compensation by arbitration had to be undertaken, and he had to pay his tenant, or rather his tenant's representatives at the end of the lease, whatever sum was put upon the buildings by the arbitrators. Now, if hon. Members would remember that the original outlay was £270, they would, perhaps, be inclined to attach some weight to his objections to this clause when he told them that he had to pay £500, and the ground upon which arbitrators went was that these buildings could not be erected now at a less cost than £500. It was true they were erected for £270 originally, but they had nothing to do with that. They had only to look and estimate what the cost would be if undertaken now; therefore, he had to pay nearly double the original outlay to the representatives of the tenant. That he did not think was fair. Well, there was another point which specially applied to the Scotch Bill. Farms in Scotland were generally held under leases of, as a rule, 19 years. This Bill was made to apply to existing leases, and that without respect to any conditions that might exist under these leases. For instance, the operations under the 3rd part of the Schedule—manuring and the use of feeding stuffs—although they might have been, as they frequently were, stipulated for and agreed to by the tenant in the lease, without compensation, still, under the Bill, that was to be set aside, although in fixing the rent it must have entered into the calculations
    1766
    —that was to be set aside, and compensation awarded under this Bill. Surely the right hon. and learned Gentleman who was in charge of the Bill had sufficient practical knowledge of the management of land to know that nothing was more common in the past—and it was still very common in Scotland—than the granting of improving leases. A farmer takes a farm at a certain rent, which is fixed with due regard to certain improvements which he undertakes to carry out. Now, was it light that a lease of the description should be affected and altogether set aside in this way by this Bill? He thought not; and he thought the Bill would be made not less valuable to those who would benefit by it, if some modification were made in this respect. Another point to which he should like to call attention seemed to him a very important one. That was as regarded drainage. He thought it was pretty well acknowledged by those who were most interested in agriculture that it was not worth while undertaking drainage, unless it was to pay at least 10 per cent, and for this reason, that it was not a permanent improvement; and if they undertook drainage which was only to pay 6½ or 7½ per cent, then at the end of 22 or 25 years they only got back their capital, with the interest, and no more, and very probably the work had to be done over again. Therefore, they were not a bit richer or better off at the end of 22 or 25 years than they would have been had a tile never been put into the ground at all. He thought, therefore, that when they limited the landlord to charging his tenant 5 per cent upon an improvement of this description, they were putting the figure too low, especially when a limited owner could obtain money for the purpose at a much greater outlay. But it might be said, if a landlord chose not to conduct this operation, then the tenant might do so. This was very good. It was a very proper proposal; but he thought it should be made under certain restrictions. He thought the power should not only be given, but it should be required, that all drainage executed by the tenant, for which the landlord had to compensate him, was to be executed under the inspection and with, the approval of an Inspector appointed by the Inclosure Commissioners. He thought there would be an advantage to

    1767
    both classes from this provision. The farmer would have the advantage of the direction of the Inspector, and the landlord would be satisfied that the work was done in an efficient manner. Therefore, he thought, when they imposed the condition in the Bill upon the execution of drainage by tenants and compensation by landlords, they would be doing no more against the interests of one class than already existed in relation to another class. But perhaps the most difficult question that was attempted to be dealt with by this Bill was that of compensation for unexhausted manures and feeding stuffs. There was no time limit provided for it, and yet it was well known that no manures were perennial, and some of them were of a decidedly ephemeral character. There was no condition made for the landlord satisfying himself that manures and feeding stuff's used should have been of a proper character, and should have been kept in the holding when the tenant flitted. It should be left to the arbitrators to decide whether the manures, of which they saw the results and which results might very well be confounded with the results from other operations, had been of a proper description, and whether there was really any value remaining from them. He failed to see how arbitrators, unless they were gifted with something approaching to second sight, could be expected to discriminate in questions of this nature; therefore, he would ask, would it not be well to insert a clause empowering the landlord to give notice to his tenant that he required to be satisfied as to the nature of the operations to be carried on under the 3rd part of the Schedule; that the tenant should give the landlord every facility to visit the holding, and to take samples of the manure and feeding stuffs, which should be submitted to a competent analyst, and the analysis should be taken into account in fixing the amount of compensation to be awarded? He might be told that this was an undue interference with the tenant. Well, the whole Bill was an interference; it was an interference with landlords, and he thought tenant farmers must expect to be interfered with also, as it could not be an interference altogether in one direction, and he was prepared to prove that benefit would accrue to the tenant from that very interference. Farmer
    1768
    were liable to be imposed upon, and the most worthless trash was foisted upon them in the shape of manure, and they had to pay through the nose for it. He had the last number of The Transactions of the Highland Agricultural Society, and in it there was a Report from the Strathearn Agricultural Association of the manures submitted to analysis by the purchasers and the sellers. He was told that the Report had had the effect of alarming the agriculturists of the district so much, and was making them so careful as to the kind of the manure, that the sellers of the manures were about to bring an action for libel against the Highland and Agricultural Society. He knew not how that might be; but the manures were sufficiently startling. For instance, in one kind of manure mentioned—bone manure—that was analyzed, the price charged for it was £8 10 s. per ton, and the value put upon it by the analyst was £4 per ton. There were several instances of that sort; in the case of turnip manure, the price charged was £7 10 s. per ton, and the value put upon it by the anal3'st was £5 5s. per ton. Now, if a clause such as he proposed were included in the Bill the tenant would have the advantage of analysis and a guarantee as to the manure, and the landlord, on his part, would be satisfied as to the nature and the mode and kind of application of the material for which he had to compensate his tenant. Of course, the intention of the Bill was to protect tenants against grasping landlords; but it would only be fair if the Bill was extended so as to protect landlords against fraudulent or dishonest tenants; and unless some provision was inserted to enable landlords to satisfy themselves in the direction he had mentioned, there would be a door opened to all sorts of imposition by indigent or unscrupulous tenants. They had heard a great deal during the debates on the Ground Game Act as to the terrors of a Dominus contractus. The landlord was assumed to be the Dominus contractus in that Act, and now they were going to make another. They were going to make the tenant absolute master of the situation, and deprive the landlord of every defence against him. There was one aspect of the Bill which he thought had escaped the attention it deserved. In Scotland their agriculture had always been distinguished for the system of

    1769
    leases. After this Bill was passed into law there would be no reason whatever for a continuance of this system. The object of a lease was that the tenant should enjoy absolute and undisturbed possession of a holding for so long a time as would secure him a reasonable return for his outlay. If that reasonable return was to be secured to him by this Bill what reason existed for continuing the lease? Looking at the position of the tenant farmers of Scotland at the present time, compared with that which they occupied 50 or 100 years ago, it would be seen that leases had been distinctly advantageous.
    GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR: To the landlords?
    SIR HERBERT MAXWELLreplied, that they had undoubtedly been advantageous to the landlords, and it would not be without regret that he would see the good old custom of leases departed from. It was an advantage to the farmer in this respect—that it gave to the Scotch farmer a position of independence that had been altogether unknown under the English system. Of course, this Bill was another step in the direction taken by the Ground Game Act of 1880. It was another interference with contract, and as such he regretted it. As was pointed out in Mr. Auberon Herbert's letter the other day in The Times, the word "child" was to be written in large letters on the back of the English farmer—"under State protection, and not allowed to make his own contracts." He thought that was very much to be regretted, because many of the farmers with whom he was acquainted resented this as an interference with independence and self-respect. There was an idea prevalent among Members of the Radical Party that a tenant was conferring a great benefit upon his landlord by taking his farm. He could not conceive how anybody practically acquainted with agriculture could adopt that view. He should recommend to them the perusal of a pamphlet by Sir John Lawes, published in 1881. In summing up the results of his experience, he stated—
    "When we come to the application of results given in the foregoing 35 pages of the general agriculture of Great Britain, it is hardly possible to avoid the conclusion that in most cases profitable agriculture involves the slow but continuous exhaustion of the soil—an exhaus-
    1770
    tion from that state of virgin land in other countries which British agriculture has to meet in competition."
    Therefore, so far from the benefit being all conferred by the tenant upon the landlord, in the very vocation which he pursued upon the property of the landlord he was deteriorating his property inevitably and unavoidably. He knew that many hon. Members regarded this Bill and the English Bill with indifference, because they really enforced stereotyped customs which were prevalent on the most liberally-managed estates; but he thought the history of the last few years must have been in vain if they did not perceive that no sooner would this Bill pass into law than attempts would be made to carry legislation further. This Bill, as soon as it became an Act, would be used as a lever further to alter the relations and regulations of land tenure in this country. He knew that his hon. Friend the Member for Mid Lincolnshire (Mr. Chaplin) approved of this Bill. The hon. Member told him of the established custom which had long prevailed in his county. That bore an immense resemblance to arguments which were used in favour of the Irish Land Act. If he remembered aright, in 1870 certain customs which had grown up in certain parts of Ireland were established by law all over Ireland, and they were told that that measure was final; but it was far from being so. It must not be supposed that he grudged support to this measure. He thought, on the whole, it was a tolerably successful attempt to deal with one of the most difficult problems that had ever been presented to any Government; and it was in the faith that it would not be made the basis of further legislation, and because of the respect shown therein for certain principles which he had been taught to hold in honour, that he would give the Bill his cordial support, although, at the same time time, reserving to himself the right to amend it in Committee; and he trusted that the motives of those who had framed the Bill would be carried out—namely, that it would result in the increased development of the land industry, in whose prosperity the whole welfare of this country was so much wrapped up.
    MR. J. W. BARCLAYsaid, he thought it was very evident, from the Bill which they were now considering, that the Go-

    1771
    vernment did not sufficiently realize the justice of the complaints of farmers or the necessities of agriculture, which the Bill was intended to meet. It was quite true that much of the present depression was due to the bad seasons of the last few years; but it must be remembered that the state of agriculture eight years ago was such as to demand the intervention of Parliament, and the Agricultural Holdings Act of 1875 was the consequence. That Bill, it was now generally admitted, bad proved inadequate to meet the necessities of the case. During the last eight years the position of agriculture had been still further aggravated. New countries had been opened up, facilities for transport had greatly increased, and the British farmer had now to meet a much more intense competition from abroad than formerly was the case. On the other hand, and from various causes, principally from the deterioration of the soil and the decrease of capital, the British farmer was in a worse position to meet the competition. If, therefore, legislation was necessary in 1875, it was much more necessary now, and if the Agricultural Holdings Act had failed to meet the state of matters which then existed, a much more comprehensive and efficient measure had now become necessary.
    SIR HERBERT MAXWELL: It did not apply to Scotland.
    MR. J. W. BARCLAYsaid, the hon. Baronet had reminded him that the Act of 1875 did not apply to Scotland; but, practically, that did not affect the argument. Although the Agricultural Holdings Act applied to England and not to Scotland, the state of agriculture in England was worse than in Scotland. It was quite true that agricultural depression greatly prevailed in Scotland; but it had not got to that extent that largo portions of land had gone out of cultivation, as in the case of England. Almost every Member who had addressed the House upon this subject dealt with the question of compensation for tenants as if it were to benefit tenants only, and as if the farmers were asking something at the expense of the landlords. Compensation for improvements would, undoubtedly, be a great advantage to farmers; indeed, it was his case that compensation to farmers for unexhausted improvements was indispensable to the successful
    1772
    carrying on of the business of farming. But the question was of far greater importance to the landlords than to the tenants in these times. It was not now with the farmer a question of more or less profit, but whether he could carry on the business of farming, pay any rent, and make a living? If he found he could not make a living, the farmer would take his capital to other lands. That I was a course that was hardly available to the landlord. It was quite true, as the First Commissioner of Works suggested the other night, that the landlord might farm his own land; but he did not observe that that suggestion was received with anything like approval from the other side of the House, and those who knew anything about the matter would have little difficulty in coming to the conclusion that the experience of the right hon. Gentleman in the direction of his suggestion was very slight. It seemed to him that the experience of the last five years ought to have convinced the landlords of both England and Scotland that there was something radically wrong in the conditions under which a farmer held his land. The symptoms certainly had been very decided. They had had unpaid rents, unlet farms, and large deductions from the rents where landlords were successful in re-letting their farms, and in some instances a large amount of land had gone out of cultivation. It was cultivated neither by the tenants nor by the landlords. This applied to England, where the symptoms were more intensified than in Scotland. Then there was the disappearance of tenants' capital, shown by the decrease in the numbers of cattle and sheep during the last eight years, and this decrease began to take place before the bad seasons came upon them. Under these circumstances, it appeared to him that it should be the anxiety of landlords to offer inducements to tenants to make that expenditure on the land which was absolutely necessary to meet the growing competition from abroad. What did the farmers demand? They asked, in the first place, for freedom of cultivation; and, in the second place, for security of capital. By freedom of cultivation the farmer desired the opportunity of cultivating the soil in the manner which his experience told him would be the best and most profitable. He desired to have the right to

    1773
    grow such crops as he found to be most advantageous, and to sell his produce in the market which he found the best. Security of capital meant that the tenant should have the right to reap such return as the soil might yield for the expenditure of his capital and skill on the soil, and if he was deprived of that right, that he should receive full compensation for the increased value of the holding to his successor. These were surely no unreasonable demands. These were the conditions on which every manufacturer carried on his business, and they were no less necessary to the farmer. Farmers demanded nothing which was the property of the landlords. The question which they had to consider was, whether the Bill gave that freedom of cultivation and that security of capital which was necessary? If the Bill failed in inducing farmers to increase their expenditure in raising the fertility of the soil, it would fail in its main objects. There had been heard very little during the discussion of the public interest in the cultivation of the land. He wished to point out that the interest of the farmer and the interest of the public were identical. The object of both was that the land should yield the maximum of produce. This Bill was spoken of as embodying a new principle—that the tenant should be entitled to compensation for unexhausted improvements left to benefit a successor. That was the basis of the Act of 1875; and if a declaration of principle had been sufficient then, the failure of that Act would not have necessitated new legislation now. But what was the use of declaring a principle, and at the same time declaring that the principle should not be applied? But they were told that there was a difference between this Bill and the Bill of 1875, in this respect—that the present Bill was compulsory. He admitted that it was, to a certain extent, compulsory. It went as far as the Amendment which in 1875 he had proposed to the Agricultural Holdings Bill, and that was to make the provision in respect of the 3rd Schedule of that Bill compulsory. If that policy had been adopted at that time, he did not say that agricultural depression would not have existed now, but the state of matters would not have been so bad as they were, and they would have got some experience of the ope-
    1774
    ration of such a measure, and would have found out whether it was sufficient to induce the farmer to make improvements. Although this Bill was, to a certain extent, compulsory, the difference between it and the Agricultural Holdings Act of 1875 was not very great. He thought the Government would admit that, so far as the 1st part of the Schedule was concerned, the provisions of the Bill were entirely permissive, because the Bill would have no effect without the consent of the landlord. It was of importance to consider some of the improvements which the Government thought the tenant should not make without the consent of the landlord. One of those improvements was the reclamation of waste land. The Government thought the tenant should not be at liberty to reclaim waste land unless the landlord gave his consent. He could not help thinking that that was a very extraordinary position for the Government to take up. What possible harm could arise to the landlord if his tenant did improve the waste land? If he did so it would be at his own expense and risk? Then there was the erection of labourers' cottages. This had been a question of great importance among farmers for many years, and some years ago a Bill was brought before the House, endeavouring to provide that a tenant might erect labourers' cottages, and obtain compensation at the end of the lease. He felt that a great responsibility attached to farmers in respect of the dwellings which labourers occupied; but, after the declaration on the part of the Government, that the tenant should not be at liberty to erect such cottages without the consent of the landlord, there would be sufficient excuse for the farmers to avoid incurring the expenditure themselves. The Government ought to have at least made provision to enable the farmers to make as decent accommodation as they could for the labourers, and so remove one of the scandals which affected very seriously a good many districts of Scotland. It struck him as very strange that this Bill seemed to be framed upon the idea that if it were made an effective measure, farmers would enter on a wild and reckless expenditure. He did not know what farmers had done to raise such an expectation. It seemed to him that the landlord had full security against any reckless expenditure

    1775
    on the part of his tenant, if the landlord only paid such compensation as he would receive from a successor. As regarded Part II. of the Bill, he was ready to admit that it was, to a certain extent, compulsory. Provision was made whereby, if the landlord, upon notice given, did not execute drainage, the tenant might do so at his own expense, and claim compensation at the end of the lease. He did not like very much this notice on the part of the tenant to the landlord. He thought such an improvement would, practically, always be carried out as the result of a conference between the landlord and the tenant, as the tenant would never be anxious to invest money in permanent improvements if the landlord would advance money at a moderate rate of interest. But this provision was very much better than the 1st part of the Schedule; and it would be a very great improvement to the Bill if the Government would give the tenant power, on giving similar notice, to make all improvements which he might desire and consider profitable under the 1st part of the Schedule. That was to say, if the tenant thought the improvement desirable and profitable, he should be bound to give notice to his landlord, who would have power to carry out the same, and to charge the tenant 5 per cent on the expenditure; or, if not, the tenant would carry out the improvement himself, and claim compensation at the end of his lease. Before the Bill passed through Committee, he hoped Her Majesty's Government would provide some simple means of determining what was a fair and reasonable agreement, so that there would be no room for dispute at the termination of a lease when the settlement came to take place between the parties. As regarded Part 3 of the Schedule, so far as he had been able to make out, the provision amounted to this—that an incoming tenant should be bound to pay to a way going tenant such portion of his expenditure on manure as could be ascertained to remain unexhausted in the soil. That was an extension of the present system that prevailed throughout Scotland. At the present moment an incoming tenant had to pay a way going tenant for the manures which remained on the holding; and if he understood the intentions of the Government aright, this principle was to be extended so far
    1776
    that there was to be paid, in addition to the manures which were not applied to the land, also such portions of the extraneous manure which had been applied to the land as were still unexhausted. That was an application of the principle of the Agricultural Holdings Act of 1875; but the basis of settlement was completely different, and he was not at present prepared to say whether he should not prefer the mode of settlement provided for by that Act. The broad provision in the Bill looked fair and equitable; but he thought there would be much more difficulty in carrying it out. This he would say in favour of the Act of 1875—that both the outgoing and incoming tenants had a better idea of what they were to receive and what they were to pay than was possible under this Bill. The Bill endeavoured to engraft on the Scottish system a part of that custom which obtained in considerable portions of England. He thought that was something in the nature of an experiment; but he was quite willing to recognize the compulsory character of that part of the Bill, and that it would be of considerable advantage to certain tenants. He had very considerable doubt whether the Bill would have the effect of inducing farmers to lay out much greater expenditure on manures, and thereby increase the fertility of the soil. This system of payment by Schedule for individual improvements was, in his opinion, altogether inadequate to meet the present necessities of agriculture. The fertility of the land must be largely increased before the farmers of this country would be able to meet competition from abroad. One of the great advantages of the 19 years' lease in Scotland was that it had induced the farmers to increase the fertility of the soil, and have a much larger stock of manures in it than had been the case in England. They saw the result in what had taken place in the two countries. In England, when bad times came upon farming, a great many farmers at once became submerged. Panning became unprofitable more quickly because there was not a stock of manure in the soil, and farms were either unletable, or in some cases going out of cultivation. The Scottish farmers had found out that a 19 years' lease was long enough to induce an energetic young man to enter on a course of improving, and

    1777
    much too short to enable him to reap the benefits of his improvements. In order to see how increased fertility had to be compensated for, let them consider what took place in a 19 years' lease. According to usual experience, farmers had to enter upon a farm in a poor condition, and with the soil much exhausted. It was necessary largely to increase the quantity of manure in the soil so as to produce crops which would pay. This was a very slow and expensive process. It required not less than from five to 10 years to get a farm into fair condition. During all this time the improving tenant was making large expenditure, and seven or eight years at least would elapse before his liberal expenditure began to repay him, and if the farm was in poor condition, he would find that he had sunk £3 to £5 per acre in the soil. He did not know anything in the Bill that would do much to stimulate that large investment of money; and if the Bill failed to induce the farmers to do so, he thought that, so far as the public were concerned, it failed in its main object. He admitted that freedom of cultivation was a difficult subject; but, still, he thought the Government ought to have gone, and he hoped they would still go, a step in that direction. It was absolutely necessary, to give farmers confidence, that they should have freedom of cultivation. On the best managed properties in Scotland, under the most enlightened management, farmers were now getting freedom of cultivation. He himself, under an enlightened management, 20 years ago, got full power to farm as he thought proper, and he believed the landlord had had no cause to regret giving that liberty. What Scottish farmers complained of was this. They were bound to a strict rotation of crop, and if from any accident the crop failed, it was not lawful for them to replace it by another crop. They could not change to any extent the rotation specified in the conditions of the lease. There was almost invariably a clause which provided that for every acre cropped out of rotation the tenant should pay a pactional penalty of from double the rent up to £5 or even £10 per acre. The landlord could exact this penalty altogether irrespective of damage done to the farm. This was unfair and unnecessary, and it was only unscrupulous land-
    1778
    lords and agents that took advantage of it to oppress a tenant quitting a farm. What the tenants of Scotland were prepared to accept was this. They wished free cultivation, leaving it always open to the landlord to claim damages for any deterioration of the farm. It was, unfortunately, the case that few landlords or agents had yet realized the fact that the most profitable crops to the tenant were also the most profitable to the landlord. There was another grievance of which Scottish farmers complained, of a subsidiary character, no doubt, but in some cases of very great importance, and that was that they had no power of assigning leases. It would be a very great advantage, and give great confidence to farmers, if they had power to do so under certain circumstances. At the present time the tenant could not assign a lease under any circumstances without the landlord's consent. There was another exceptionally arbitrary power possessed by landlords, in the fact that the tenant could not dispose of his lease by testament. According to the law of Scotland, the landlord had the power of refusing to accept any tenant except the heir-at-law. The farmer could not leave his lease, however much his improvements might be, to his widow without the landlord's consent. He had known cases in which this had given rise to considerable hardship. He thought it would be no violation of the landlord's rights if the power of assignment and of bequest were made by this Bill the right of every tenant under proper safeguards. Looking at the Bill as a whole, it was certainly not such a measure as the tenants of Scotland had a right to expect, particularly after the declarations made by the Prime Minister and other Members of the Government. If these declarations had been implemented, the Bill would have been highly satisfactory to the tenants of Scotland. These pledges, as they were understood to be, had certainly not been fulfilled in the measure before the House. No one doubted the intentions and the goodwill of the Prime Minister, or his desire to carry out and fulfil the expectations which he thought he was fully justified in saying were encouraged at the last General Election. He could only assume that the Prime Minister had not been able to carry out his generous intentions of doing justice

    1779
    towards the tenants of Scotland and England. They had heard a great deal of protection being desired for the sitting tenant. His great objection to the Bill was that it did not protect sufficiently the removing tenant. If it had sufficiently protected the removing tenant, it would have done a great deal to protect also the tenant who desired to remain in his holding. What the tenants looked for was not a measure on this basis of compensation which proposed that every improvement should be dealt with by itself; but they desired, and it would have been much better for the landlords to have granted, a measure which would have secured to the farmer compensation on the basis of the increased value of his holding as a whole so far as that was due to his improvements. The improvements of the farm might be due to very many causes—to improved manuring, or to superior cultivation. The system of compensation by Schedule in the Bill put off the tenant with the least compensation that could possibly be granted to him. If a farm were, during a tenancy, increased in value 10 s. per acre, and if 5s. per acre of the improvement was due to the tenant's own industry and skill, he was fairly entitled to be compensated in respect of the increased value due to his exertions when he was turned out of his holding. If such a measure had been introduced, be was confident that the farmers of Scotland would have accepted it as a settlement of the question for an indefinite period. A very considerable amount of uncertainty would prevail under the Bill, and it might operate very differently in different parts of the country, according to the arbiters appointed. So far as existing tenants were concerned, the Bill would be a advantage to them. Tenants who were anxious to give up farming, would see that in this Bill they would have a certain amount of compensation for unexhausted manures, to which at present they were not entitled. These farmers were quite justified in giving the Bill their support. But this did not give very much hope for the revival of agriculture. In fact, it seemed to him that the Bill, as it stood, would rather hasten the breaking down of the system of tenure under which farmers were now struggling to carry on their business. That system of tenure was altogether too artificial and too unnatural to resist
    1780
    the strain of free competition from abroad to which it was being subjected. If they were to make the most of the land—and they would have to make the most of it if farming was to be carried on and rents to be paid—the farmer must have such security as would induce him to apply his best energies, and all the money necessary, to the cultivation of the soil. The Bill, unless very materially amended in Committee, would greatly disappoint the farmers in Scotland. The Scottish farmers were law-abiding, industrious, and loyal. They had done as much as the tenants of Ireland to improve their holdings. If he was not mistaken, the increase of rental in Scotland between 1850 and 1875 had been two-thirds more than in any other part of the country. The Scottish farmers thought they were entitled to be dealt with no less liberally than their Irish brethren. They had looked forward to have some security of tenure, or at least full compensation for their improvements. The tenants in Ireland did not get fixity of tenure because of their historical connection with the soil, as they were told by the First Commissioner of Works. Their historical connection with the land was as great in 1870 as in 1881, and it was only by means very unfortunate for Ireland and for the credit of Parliament that the Irish tenant was able to get fixity of tenure in 1881. The tenants of Scotland had no desire whatever to imitate the policy of the Irish; but they intended to contend for their just rights. It was their intention, he believed, to continue this loyal, peaceful, and Constitutional agitation, which was now organized, until they secured that which they thought was justly their due. The Bill had been received with some satisfaction by the farmers of Scotland; but it was rather on account of what it might be made than from what the Bill really was. They had not abandoned the hope that very considerable amendments would be made in Committee; and he should be happy to co-operate with the Government in making the Bill worthy of a Liberal Administration, and to some extent, at least, redeem the pledges which farmers in Scotland understood to have been made.
    MR. ORR-EWINGsaid, he should not have trespassed on the House on that occasion but for the statement by

    1781
    the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of Works (Mr. Shaw Lefevre) in the debate on the Agricultural Holdings (England) Bill, that, with the exception of Mr. Auberon Herbert, no public man had pronounced in favour of freedom of contract, as against compulsion. That was a very strong statement to come from the Government Bench. He (Mr. Orr-Ewing) had no doubt the right hon. Gentleman had read the letter of that veteran Whig Statesman, in which he called the right hon. Gentleman to account for this great departure from the great principles that used to guide the Liberal Party, and he should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman, whether he intended his observation to extend to all future legislation, or to confine it only to the Bill before the House, or to the Agricultural Holdings (England) Bill? If he intended to apply that observation to all future legislation, it was one of the most dangerous and unfortunate principles ever announced by a Government to the House. If it applied only to the present Bill, what was peculiar to the relations between landlord and tenant, that they required such exceptional legislation? He (Mr. Orr-Ewing) believed freedom of contract to be the only principle on which business of all kinds could be conducted; and legislation which interfered with that principle must be injurious to the interest of the parties so interfered with. He, therefore, regretted that such a Bill as this had been thought necessary for Scotland. He did not blame the present Government more than the late Government. Both had endeavoured to deal with this question on what he believed to be false principles; and, indeed, there were independent Members on both sides of the House who, Session after Session, had been tinkering with the question. Under the old system of freedom of contract—of men dealing with men as rational, independent beings—farming had been conducted in Scotland in a way superior to that known in any country in the world. Notwithstanding a barren soil and a poor climate, they had, in Scotland, perhaps, the most intelligent, the most energetic, hard-working, and independent tenantry that would be found anywhere. They required no such legislation as this in order to make bargains with their landlords. They were as fit as the landlords to know what was
    1782
    best for their own interests, and, as a class, they had hitherto been fairly successful. No doubt, during the last seven or eight years, with very wet, cold, sunless seasons, bad crops, and bad harvests, and enormous importations of agricultural produce from every quarter of the world, grain-growing farms had been most unprofitable. Of course, that unfortunate state of matters must be dealt with. Some remedy must be found; but, in his opinion, the only way in which it could be properly dealt with was by an arrangement between landlords and tenants themselves. They understood better what arrangements it was necessary to make to overcome a state of matters arising from causes over which they had no control. In Scotland, the relationship between landlord and tenant had hitherto been of the most cordial description. The best evidence he could give of that fact was to state, what he believed would be accepted by every Scottish Member, that long leases were generally renewed by members of the same family, so that the same family remained in possession from generation to generation. So that there was a feeling of sympathy between landlords and tenants in Scotland, and landlords were ready to recognize losses sustained by bad seasons, and to give a helping hand by a reduction of rent, or delay in payment. But, of recent years, a set of busy bodys, few of them agriculturists, or belonging to the agricultural class, but political agitators from the manufacturing towns, had stepped in, and perambulated the country organizing societies, and stirring up class against class. At one time it was the farmers against the landlords, and at another the labourer against the farmer. Such conduct he strongly condemned, in the interest of both tenant and landlord. It was very strange—and he did not know whether it had occurred to any other Scottish Member—that that agitation had only taken hold on one part of Scotland—that was, in the North and North-East. In the West and South-West it had no effect whatever, and his belief was, that was owing to the fact that in the West and South-West the tenant farmers were constantly coming in contact with commercial and mercantile men, and, in that way, they derived a better idea of political economy, and had more confidence in themselves in deal-

    1783
    ing with business matters. It was amusing to watch the action of these agitators. At one time they assumed the character of the friends of the people in the towns; at another as the friends of the farmers; and at another as the friends of the agricultural labourers. In the large towns they urged the reform of the Land Laws in order to attract more capital into the farming interest, and, by producing a larger crop, cheapen the price of food; but, considering the fact that already the farming of this country was so superior, that they grew more than double the quantity of cereals per acre than was grown in any part of Europe or America, that was rather absurd. These agitators also desired to remedy the Land Laws, with the view of giving tenants fixity of tenure. That had been acknowledged by the hon. Member who had just sat down, the Member for Forfarshire (Mr. J. W. Barclay); and when they addressed the labourer they wanted the Land Laws reformed in order that the labourers might have better houses, larger gardens, and larger wages; and they pointed to the wages received by the artizan classes in the towns and cities. Sometimes in England those agitators had been so successful in their agitation that they had managed to bring about more than one strike; and it was remarkable that such strikes had always been agitated for at the most difficult season of the year—the harvest. Such was the tortuous course of those self-constituted friends of the agricultural classes. Was it not strange that many of these agitators, who carried_ on this work in the pretended interest of the working classes, were large employers of labour in our towns and populous districts, in some instances employing thousands of men, women, and children, who were living in miserable houses, to which the sun's rays seldom penetrated, and from which disease was rarely absent? Yet these philanthropists, who were so deeply interested in the improvement of the condition of the agricultural labourers, with whom they had nothing to do, took no steps whatever to provide better houses for the workpeople by whom they were making their money. He believed the most degraded and neglected and most miserable class of people in this country were the working people in the
    1784
    large towns; and yet nothing was done for their amelioration. They might send Commissioners to Skye and to Lewis, and those beautiful Highland districts, where there was not one-tenth part of the misery which was to be found within a stone-throw of this House; but such a thing as a Commission of Inquiry into the dreadful condition of the vast population around them was not to be thought of. The people in Skye, though they might be poor, had always a healthy atmosphere, and surroundings which elevated the mind, and sufficient food to keep them in health. The hon. Member who had just spoken had given a very gloomy view of the condition of agriculture. With that he (Mr. Orr-Ewing) could not agree. His own opinion was that dairy farms, sheep farms, and breeding farms were paying remarkably well; and in his own part of the country he had not known a farm which had been let to a new tenant which had not brought the same rent, or a little higher. He was not aware of a single dairy farm which had not brought at least the same rent, and some had brought more. Last year was one of the best for sheep farming which had happened in his day. The hon. Member for Forfarshire had also drawn the attention of the House to the different condition in which he said farmers and manufacturers were placed with regard to improvements. He (Mr. Orr-Ewing) was afraid, however, that the hon. Member was not so conversant with the position of manufacturers as he was with agriculture, for he (Mr. Orr-Ewing) could assure him that the law with regard to improvements was the same in both cases, and that if a manufacturer chose to lay out money in extending or improving his manufactory he got nothing allowed for it at the end of his lease. It was not his (Mr. Orr-Ewing's) intention to vote against the second reading of the Bill. He sincerely hoped it would be successful. He might be mistaken; but he confessed he had great doubts of its being found of much benefit to the farming class. What he feared most of all was that it would create many dissensions, many appeals to the Law Courts, and much bad feeling between landlords and tenants, who had hitherto been on the most friendly terms. He had no doubt some amendments would

    1785
    be effected in the measure, and he thought it was necessary that some improvements should be made. There was no provision, for instance, for such a case as his own. He was now about to let his land, which was in most excellent order—perhaps there was none in much better order in any part of Scotland. What provision was there in the Bill with respect to the incoming tenant? Was the latter to pay him (Mr. Orr-Ewing) for improvements he had made in the last three or four years? Again, what was to be the evidence of the condition of the land 19 years hence? It might now be worth 50 s. an acre, while perhaps at the end of the 19 years it might not be worth 20 s. an acre. In a case of that kind, what was to be paid to the landlord for deterioration? All that showed what a dangerous thing it was for the Government to interfere with matters which ought to be settled by private individuals alone. It was impossible to foresee all the evil effects of the Bill. He believed that the only way in which farms could be let was, as he had said at the outset, by freedom of contract; and the only way in which business could be properly conducted was by man meeting man and dealing with the matter for settlement on business principles. Only on these principles could the agriculture of the country be maintained.
    MR. M'LAGANsaid, he thought he was in the House of Commons discussing the Agricultural Holdings Bill for Scotland; but, listening to the speech of the hon. Member for Dumbarton (Mr. Orr-Ewing), he had been transported to a meeting of the Social Science Association, in which, no doubt, a very interesting subject was being discanted upon with very great eloquence—namely, the social condition of the people; and he had not hoard a word either in favour of or against the Bill, excepting one remark on which he should like to speak. His hon. Friend found fault with the Bill in so far as it interfered with freedom of contract. He was as much in favour of freedom of contract as any man in that House; but they must remember that freedom of contract had been tried on this subject in England, and they must remember further that the hon. Members who represented the agricultural interest on the other side of the House had come forward and said that
    1786
    it had failed in England, and that they were prepared now to try another plan. They must further remember that the Legislature of this country had placed one of the contracting parties in this freedom of contract in a far more advantageous position than the other, and that there could not, therefore, be true freedom of contract. For that reason, he was prepared to waive his opinion in favour of freedom of contract so far as this Bill was concerned. His hon. Friend the Member for Forfarshire (Mr. J. W. Barclay) said this Bill had not proceeded upon the proper principle—that was, in so far as compensation was given for the value of unexhausted improvements to the incoming tenant, while it ought to have been given to the outgoing tenant for unexhausted improvements.
    MR. J. W. BARCLAYsaid, he had not said that. What he said was, that the settlement which would be satisfactory to the farmer would be compensation, based upon the increased value of the holding, so far as that increased value was due to his improvements.
    MR. M'LAGANsaid, he was quite prepared to take it on that footing; but his hon. Friend should consider that there were two ways of putting this question. So long as agriculture was prosperous and rents were rising, it was evident he would receive the improved value. But what had been the case during the last two or three years? They found that the land, instead of rising, had been decreasing in value. In considering this question, there were the interests of four parties to be taken into account—the interests of the incoming tenant, the outgoing tenant, the landlord, and last, but not least, the public; and all these had been taken into consideration in his view in this Bill, and would be more or less benefited by it. The Government were to be congratulated on the introduction of the Bill, for two reasons—first, on account of the basis on which they had laid the compensation for unexhausted improvements—namely, that the incoming tenant should pay for what was value to him; and, secondly, for the elasticity of the Bill. He thought that a most important consideration. Let them take, first, that the incoming tenant should pay for what was value to him. It was quite just, when they compelled a man to pay for a

    1787
    thing, that they should make the law such that he would receive value for what he paid. That was the principle of the Bill. If they deprived the incoming tenant from knowing what was in the soil, it was but just they should have arbitrators, who were likely to know that he was getting value for his money. The Schedule system which was in use in Lincolnshire was, he thought, productive of much harm. He found in some parts of the district, where the Schedule system had been adopted, it had led to fraud, and had, in fact, stereotyped a system of agriculture which was most detrimental. But this was quite different to the Bill introduced by the Government; and be thought the Government should be congratulated on having solved a difficulty, in having the compensation based upon the value which the incoming tenant got of the money he paid. Not only were they to be congratulated on that, but also upon the elasticity of the Bill. The provisions of this Bill did not dictate to the agriculturists of the country any system of farming which they were to pursue over the whole country, and which would stereotype in some cases perhaps a very bad system of farming; but the provisions of the Bill gave every farmer scope for the exercise of his energy, his skill, and his experience. The Bill allowed him to adopt such systems of farming as were best adapted for him and the particular district. He believed the effect of the Bill would be to lead to the advancement of all, and on that point he differed from his hon. Friend the Member for Forfarshire, because there was no doubt that this Bill, if carried out in its entirety, or with such amendment as might be made in Committee, would be calculated to do very much good. Indeed, the hon. Member for Forfarshire had given very strong instances why a tenant farmer ought to receive compensation at the end of his lease. He was sorry to say that the hon. Member had missed the object of the Bill altogether in giving these instances. There was no doubt that, at the present time, when a farmer entered upon a farm he generally entered upon an exhausted farm. He had to lay out a good deal of money in bringing it into condition, and it would require perhaps seven or eight years to improve it. When he left the farm, it was necessary and just that he should receive
    1788
    compensation for his unexhausted improvements. That was the present system; but the object of the Bill was to prevent that in future, and to enable a farmer to keep his farm in condition right up to the end of the lease, and then the incoming tenant paid so much money on entering on the farm which was in a good condition, and not in a done-out farm, and, consequently, the instances given were quite beyond the question. Coming to the 2nd clause of the Bill, he found that a tenant under a lease, at the present time, was to receive compensation for unexhausted improvements, under the 3rd Schedule. He must say that must be made with very great caution. Indeed, the instance taken by his hon. Friend the Member for Dumbarton, was a case where a tenant would scarcely be entitled to compensation at the end of his lease. The tenant might have entered on his farm in a very high condition, and to keep up the farm he must buy every year a good deal of extraneous manure. It would be unjust to say at the end of the lease, when the farm was in high condition, that in such a case the tenant should receive compensation for the unexhausted manures. It was well known that they could not keep up the fertility of the soil without purchasing a large quantity of cake, corn, or manure. It would be a question at the end of the lease, when this Bill come into operation, whether the tenant was entitled to compensation on all the purchased food and manure which were absolutely necessary for keeping up the fertility of the soil in the state in which he got it from the landlord. He did not object to compensation; but he saw that there would be considerable difficulty, and perhaps injustice, when a question came to be decided some years hence under the 2nd clause. As regarded the 3rd clause—that which referred to the 1st Schedule—he could not say he agreed with all in the Schedule. In fact, when the Schedule system came into operation, he thought it was absolutely necessary to have a neutral party to decide between landlord and tenant. He did not see how it could be done otherwise. He was not going to advocate a Land Court for Scotland; but he thought it would be necessary to have some authority to apply to, when landlords and tenants differed, such as on the question of roads and bridges neces-

    1789
    sary for the proper work of the farm, and supply of cottages for the labourers. Then as regarded the 2nd Schedule, dealing with drainage, the tenant had to give notice from the landlord whether he should perform drainage or not, and if the landlord did not perform it, the tenant might do it himself, and claim compensation. He should be inclined to place that in the 1st Schedule, because if they had such a neutral authority as that referred to above, it would be of great advantage. It should be in the power of the landlord to have it in his power to consult some proper individual as to whether the farm should be drained or not. The hon. Member for Forfarshire said the tenant should be allowed to improve waste land. He (Mr. M'Lagan) knew some farms in Scotland where there was a good deal of waste land used for winter feeding; but in one case the landlord got an improving tenant, who improved the waste land, and the result was that he depreciated that farm, in so far as he had not winter food for his sheep. These were points that every now and then occurred, and they ought to be provided for in the Bill. As regarded the 3rd Schedule, there were certain points that he thought should be put into the 2nd—such as boning, claying, and limeing the land. He could not sit down without referring to the comparison which had been made between the Irish and Scotch tenants. He was surprised to hear that any hon. Member in the House, much more his hon. Friend the Member for Forfarshire, who understood agriculture so well, represented that the position of the Irish tenant and the Scotch tenant were similar. He (Mr. M'Lagan) was pretty well acquainted with agriculture throughout Scotland, and he must say he knew very few instances indeed where the permanent improvements had been made by the tenants. Here and there it had been done; but, as a rule, it had been done by the landlords. He did not wish to depreciate the great energy that had been shown by the tenant farmers, because he thought they were as much entitled to the merit of the increase of rent as the landlords were; but they should not praise the one at cost of the other. He knew instances where tenants had improved very largely indeed, and had, unfortunately, been turned out of their farms; but these
    1790
    were the exceptions to the rule. Then, as regarded the sitting tenants, he really wished the Government would see their way to solving the question. He knew it was a difficult question; but he knew many instances where the tenant had had his rent raised upon his own improvements, and if that could be avoided it should. It would not be so bad in the case of Scotland, where they had leases. But in England it must be serious, where they had no leases. Where they had no leases, it was necessary to have some provision for the sitting tenant. In Scotland, where they had leases, there would not be the same difficulty; but, at the same time, it would be advisable if some plan could be devised by which the sitting tenant could be compensated for his improvements. He would conclude by again congratulating the Government on the introduction of the Bill. He thought that it was an honest attempt to solve the question, and he must say that it had been solved in a much better way than he expected it to be; and, instead of making carping speeches, and putting down carping Amendments, they should all put their shoulders to the wheel, and endeavour to make the Bill as good as they possibly could. For his part, he should give all the assistance he could to the Government. He believed this was a turning point in agriculture, and that the effect of it would be to improve agriculture, and to increase the national wealth.
    MR. DALRYMPLEsaid, the speech they had just listened to from his hon. Friend (Mr. M'Lagan) had been very different, both in tone and temper, from that of the hon. Member for Forfarshire (Mr. J. W. Barclay). His hon. Friend had pointed to some Amendments in the Bill, which were in the direction of making it plainer, and guarding against possible misconception, or even fraud, and the like. But the hon. Member for Forfarshire pointed to Amendments of a very different kind. In fact, as he (Mr. Dalrymple) understood the hon. Member, the support which the hon. Member gave to the Bill was only given upon the condition of its being transferred into a very different one indeed. He (Mr. Dalrymple) took comfort, however, in the belief that it was not at all probable that Her Majesty's Government would follow the lead of the hon. Member—at

    1791
    least, if they had any desire to pass the Bill. He heard, with surprise, the reference made by the hon. Member for Forfarshire to the case of Ireland, and was glad that his hon. Friend (Mr. M'Lagan) took the opportunity of deprecating the notion that there was any real analogy between the case of the tenants of Ireland and those of Scotland. He (Mr. Dalrymple) should have been ashamed, if he had anything like the the knowledge of the farmers of Scotland which the hon. Member for Forfarshire had, to have attempted any comparison between the two cases. But that was the sort of language which was used by the hon. Gentleman, and those like him, when they met their tenant continents in Scotland. They said—"Look at the favours which have been showered oil the Irish tenants. You are a far more law-abiding class than the Irish tenants, and you do not get half as much." But there was one thing they left unsaid, and that was that the respective cases were of a totally different kind. He ventured to say that, whatever might be said by the hon. Gentleman who professed to speak with so much confidence, the great majority of the tenant farmers of Scotland would repudiate the notion that their circumstances were similar to those of the unfortunate tenants of Ireland. He would not attempt to enter into the details of the measure, as it was not opposed on the second reading, and it was quite obvious that the discussion of details must be deferred till they were in Committee; but would merely say that he should deprecate extremely anything which would seem to throw discredit on the system of leases which had been prevalent in Scotland so long, and of which, till lately, they were in the habit of expressing themselves as being proud. He could not believe that any circumstances which had occurred in reference to agriculture in Scotland, notwithstanding the sharpness of competition, bad seasons, and so forth, had in any way thrown discredit on the system of leases; and he should look upon it as a retrograde step if they gave currency for a moment to the idea that they drew back from the admirable system of leases which had prevailed hitherto. He trusted that care would be taken when the Bill was in Committee to guard against fraud in reference to some of the manures which were likely to be employed. He
    1792
    confessed he did not understand how it was to be positively discovered whether such things as bones, for instance, had been really used upon the soil. It might happen, he believed, that a man, who was disposed to behave in a fraudulent manner, might produce a bill for bones, lime, and so forth, which he professed to have purchased, and there would be no means, so far as he (Mr. Dalrymple) knew, of ascertaining whether they had been inserted in the soil. For the purpose of defeating fraud in respect of such matters, it would be important that that there should be arbitrators of a respectable kind; and it was plain that the arbitrators would have to be appointed from quarters that were above suspicion, as, otherwise, he was afraid, room would be left open for fraud. He would now leave the discussion of the Bill to others more immediately affected by it than himself, only desiring to make one further remark of a general kind. He wondered why it was not thought possible to deal with this measure relating to Scotland together with that relating to England in one Bill. He believed there was no such difference between Scotland and England in this matter, as there was between different parts of England; and, if it was not for the fantastic and ridiculous custom of dealing separately with Scotch matters, he believed that that would have been done in the present case. Was it, or was it not, a separate measure from the English one? If it was the same, then, he said, it might have been dealt with at the same time. If it was a separate measure, then, he said, it ought to have been prefaced by an introductory statement by the Government. If it was a different measure, it was a most unseemly and irregular practice that it should have been introduced for second reading without any statement on the part of the Government. They were all familiar with the somewhat disjointed condition of the management of Scotch affairs. He was not one of those who reflected, in the least degree, upon the old system. He had not, and never had had, any jealousy of what was called the bureaucracy of the Lord Advocate. He believed the old system answered very well; but what did not answer now was the absurd and fantastic and uncertain management of Scotch affairs. He was not reflecting

    1793
    for one moment upon the Law Officers of the Crown for Scotland, who were able and distinguished officers; but it was a ridiculous circumstance that the names on the back of this Agricultural Bill should be the names of the Law Officers of Scotland. Perhaps that was the reason why they had no introductory statement; because he put it to the House whether it was likely that the Law Officers of the Crown in Scotland should be especially qualified to discuss questions like those of the improvements to which the consent of the landlord was required, or improvements to which that consent was not required? It required a perfect spasm of the mind to conceive the notion of the Law Officers of the Crown sitting down to consider, critically, questions as to boning land with un dissolved bones, and questions connected with claying, liming, and marling. It was no reflection upon the Law Officers of Scotland; but it showed how exceedingly disjointed and strange was the arrangement of Business connected with Scotland. All that might have been avoided, if there had been one Bill for England and Scotland, with such separate clauses as were necessary to meet the case of Scotland. He regretted that that course of procedure had been adopted on the present occasion, as he knew of no subject which should less be treated separately than the question of land. He could not see that there were any questions involved in this Bill that would have been at all inappropriate in a general measure; and he must repeat his regret that the opportunity was not taken to introduce a measure applicable to the whole country. It was of the greatest importance that, when it could be done, there should be general legislation for the whole country; and he could not imagine a subject more suited to such treatment than that which was now before the House.
    THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR): Sir, I wish, in the first place, to thank the House for the manner in which the Bill has generally been received. I think the discussion has been highly satisfactory; and, although there have been certain criticisms of such a nature as one might have expected on a matter as to which there are considerable difficulties, and large and well-known differences of opinion, yet the reception of the Bill has been decidedly
    1794
    favourable on the whole. I do not propose to go into any general discussion of the Bill, because I think it has been very fully and satisfactorily discussed already; and I only propose to follow the course which has been adopted by previous speakers, and to make some remarks upon the main points with which they have successively dealt. I may, in the first place, say, with respect to the criticisms of the hon. Baronet the Member for Wigtonshire (Sir Herbert Maxwell), and the hon. Member for Buteshire (Mr. Dalrymple), as to the Bill for Scotland having been brought in separately from the English Bill, that we still think there are good and valid reasons for that course. The English Bill made reference to the Agricultural Holdings Act of 1875. There was no corresponding Act for Scotland. The English Bill imports, by reference, a not inconsiderable portion of that prior measure; and it would have been inconvenient that that course should have been followed in the Scotch Bill, for, from beginning to end, it contains phraseology and deals with many matters of which we have no knowledge in Scotland. It was surely very much better, when we had to make an entirely new Bill for Scotland, without a predecessor like that of 1875, that the Bill, although it is founded upon the same principles as those expressed in the English Bill, should be a separate measure, so that the Scotch tenants and the Scotch people should not require to go outside their Bill, and that they should not be bewildered or embarrassed with phraseology or subjects with which they were not acquainted. I can scarcely imagine any kind of Bill which it is more appropriate, or, indeed, more essential, should tell its own story, and not any other story, than a Bill addressed to the class of persons who are mainly interested in the present measure—namely, the agricultural tenantry of Scotland. I need, therefore, I think, say nothing more in justification of the course which, after due consideration, we thought fit to follow, and which we still think was the right course. There has been, I hope, no undue claim upon Parliamentary time in following that course, because no one who has listened to the discussion to-day will say that it has been at all thrown away. What I have already said affords also a sufficient justification for the course I

    1795
    followed in not making an explanatory speech in introducing this Bill. It was from no want of respect to the House, but simply for two reasons, the first of which was that, when I asked leave to introduce this Bill, I stated it involved the application of the same principles which are contained in the English Bill. The second was that there is no Amendment, and no block upon the Bill today; and I believe that, according to the Rules of the House, if I had spoken at the beginning, I should not have had the power of offering any explanation, or making any answers to the criticisms which have been passed upon the Bill. Well, the first hon. Member who spoke was the hon. Baronet the Member for Wigtonshire (Sir Herbert Maxwell); and he, while approving of the Bill as a whole, made certain observations upon particular portions and provisions of it. In his first point, the hon. Member seemed to indicate dissatisfaction with the measure of compensation which is proposed by the Bill. I do not think, how ever, while he enumerated three measures as possible, that he greatly preferred either of the other two to that which has been adopted. I submit that the measure which has been adopted is the most just of all measures, if it can be practically carried out. It is the value of the remanent improvements to the incoming tenant. That is an asset of the outgoing tenant. It is the thing which he would have enjoyed if he remained, and which he leaves when he goes. Therefore, whether there may, or may not, be difficulties in assessing the compensation, I can hardly imagine that anything in its general expression can be more just than to define the measure of compensation as it is defined in this Bill. The only substantial objection which I understood the hon. Member to state to this measure was that it might possibly give the tenant a larger sum in name of compensation than the amount which he had laid out. It is possible; but it will not often happen, because most improvements will have so far exhausted themselves, and it will be in exceptional cases only that the value of the asset of the tenant, which he would have enjoyed if he had remained, and which is his to sell when he goes out, will be more than he paid for it. But I would ask, if the remaining value is more than he expended, why ought he
    1796
    not to get compensation for it? [Sir HERBERT MAXWELL: That is what I object to. What has he got to sell?] The hon. Baronet may object to it; but a thing is always worth its price—that is, what it would bring if sold. The value to the incoming tenant of the outgoing tenant's improvements is treated by the Bill as a thing for which he is entitled to be compensated; and it is a form of expression which does not inaccurately describe it to say that it is a thing for which he has to get a price. [Sir HERBERT MAXWELL: Tenant right.] No it is not tenant right, with great deference to the hon. Member. I simply put it in this way. It is no objection whatever to say that, in very rare, though possible cases, this remanent improvement may be worth more than it cost; because if the additional value it gives to the land is really and is bonâ fide the result of the tenant's expenditure, and does not invade or encroach upon any increment of value belonging to the landlord, it is truly an asset of the tenant, and should be valued accordingly. Therefore, the first criticism which the hon. Member passed upon the Bill is, I venture to say, not well founded. He next made some remarks in regard to improving leases. I understood him to convey that there are, in Scotland, long improving leases, and that the making of improvements is often the consideration for a low rent, which is agreed to be taken throughout the lease. We are quite familiar with such improving leases in Scotland; but I do not see how there is any observation which arises from the existence of these leases against this Bill. But if you find, as is the case in a proper improving lease, that there are certain obligations laid upon the tenant—say, for the reclamation of a certain area of waste land, or the execution of other specific improvements—and that his rent is fixed in consideration of these things, I do not see on what ground the tenant could make a claim for them. He had undertaken to make the improvements in respect of a diminished rent; and he is thus, by his bargain, compensated for them. That is just one of the fair agreements at the commencement of a lease which is left untouched by the Bill. No injustice, therefore, will be done by the Bill in the case of improving leases. They will stand on their own proper

    1797
    basis. The next matter with which the hon. Member dealt with was that of drainage, and he had various objections to the provisions in. regard to that subject. There was one point he made which, I am bound to say, does appear to me to have something in it. He said it would not pay the landlord to execute drainage with a return of only 5 per cent; and I rather think that observation would be, speaking generally, well founded. At all events, the common stipulation in Scotland is for payment of a somewhat higher rate of interest. It must be noted, however, that this provision is only introduced into the Bill as one of three alternatives; so that if any particular landlord does not think that his land is of such a character that the drainage would be so enduring as to make 5 per cent a fair return, he has two other alternatives. He can either allow the tenant to execute the drainage works, with the liability to pay him for what residue of advantage may remain on his quitting the holding, or the landlord and tenant can make a reasonable agreement in regard to the manner of executing the works. We are all familiar in Scotland with agreements of this kind; and although the hon. Member for Buteshire seems to be of opinion that the Law Officers of the Crown know nothing about agriculture, I venture to think that we are not altogether ignorant of it. Possibly, we may have been in the country sometimes, and we may know a little about the matter otherwise. But we are all familiar with cases in which the landlord and tenant do execute drainage works by joint and reasonable arrangement. We sometimes find that the tenant executes the carriages, and the landlord provides the tiles. Again, we know that one of them undertakes to cut the tracks of the drains, while the other makes some other contribution to their execution. When three alternatives are given, two of them certainly reasonable, I do not think any landlord could complain of unjust treatment if he accepted the alternative of executing the drains and charging 5 per cent interest, when he had the other two to fall back upon. The other point that the hon. Member made with regard to drainage was, that it should be done under inspection. He suggested that drainage executed by the tenant should be under inspection, and the kind of
    1798
    inspection he proposed was by an Inspector of the Inclosure Commissioners. We think it is very much better, as far as possible, to dispense with the introduction of public functionaries between landlord and tenant—a view which, I believe, is largely shared on the other side of the House; and the introduction, unless it was clearly necessary, of a person from the outside to see work done, the execution of which the landlord could watch, would be a step in a direction which I did not expect to hear proposed from the quarter from which the criticism has come. There would be no advantage to the tenant in the drainage work being executed in an inefficient manner. In the first place, it is his interest to have good drains, because they are for the benefit of the holding of which he reaps the profits; and, in the second place, he knows that he will only be compensated at the termination of his tenancy for any residue of his improvements which may then remain effective. If he does not leave any residue, he will not get any compensation, so that he has every sort of stimulus to make his drains in the best way; whereas, on the other hand, the landlord, having the power of coming on the ground and seeing what is done, may make suggestions, or take any notes which he pleases, for the purpose of preserving evidence, to be adduced when the question arises, how the work was carried out, whether judiciously or injudiciously.[Sir HERBERT MAXWELL: Ex parte.] No; the proceedings of the arbitrator will not be ex parte. The landlord observing, and the tenant executing, I venture to say that part of the hon. Member's criticism was not well founded. The next part of the Bill dealt with by the hon. Member was the 3rd Schedule; and his objection was that provision is not made for notice being given, so that the landlord should have an opportunity of analyzing the manures that were proposed to be put in the ground. I know that is a point in regard to which there is some difference of opinion, and which deserves fair consideration; but, upon the whole, the view taken by the Government is that it would not be reasonable or beneficial to either party to require antecedent notice in the case of manures. It would be a very vexatious provision upon the tenant if, in cultivating his holding, and possibly putting in. his manure hurriedly,

    1799
    when the weather suited, he had always to send a notice to the landlord, under penalty of losing any compensation for the manure, if it proved to be beneficial. It would be putting too much upon him in the busy period of the spring husbandry; and in the not improbable event of his neglecting to give notice his just claim would be cut off. And I must point out, further, that if there is any defect of evidence with regard to the character or quality of the manure it would be the tenant who would suffer. He would require to prove his case, to prove that he made an improvement of which a certain residue remained to be valued, so that if there was any defect of proof it would fall upon him. It would, therefore, be only natural that he would take care, in his own interest, to use manure of good quality, some part of which would remain in the soil at the expiry of his tenancy. It has been suggested that, in some instances, fraudulent devices might be resorted to. Of course, such things are possible; but I am bound to say that, knowing the tenantry of Scotland well, I should not anticipate that anything of that kind would be other than of the most exceptional character. On the whole, we see no reason to alter the view in which this Bill was framed, that the ordinary operations of husbandry should be allowed to be carried out in the proper time, without going through formalities that would always be vexatious, and which might sometimes lead to injustice. The next hon. Member who spoke was my hon. Friend the Member for Forfarshire (Mr. J. W. Barclay), and his observations were in a direction diametrically opposed to the criticisms which I have just now been dealing with. On the whole, he recognized the Bill as a distinct advance, and as conferring no small benefits on the tenant; but he thought that, in some of its particulars, it did not go far enough. The first two points which he made were these—first, that the Bill did not provide for freedom of cultivation; and, secondly, that it did not afford, in his judgment, a sufficient inducement to the tenant to embark his capital in the soil. I understood his practical proposal on the first point was of this nature. He said that in Scotch leases there were frequently stipulations providing that, in the event of the land being miscropped,
    1800
    there should be a pactional rent paid for it. Undoubtedly that is true; but what did he propose? I understood his proposal to be that, by an Act of Parliament, those clauses should be cut down, and a declaration substituted that only the actual damage sustained should be allowed. That, as it appears to me, would be a very strong measure indeed. It seems a violent proposal to say that, where two persons have deliberately agreed on an additional pactional rent, in the event of something being done which they contracted should not be done, the Legislature should deny the effect of that agreement. In regard to the next criticism of my hon. Friend the Member for Forfarshire, in which he said there was not adequate security given for capital, I understood him to object to the principle of enumeration by way of Schedule. He contended that the whole improvements made by the tenant without specification should be submitted to arbitration. Now, Sir, no doubt the proposal so stated has an air of great fairness and great plausibility; but I am afraid that what we should have to consider is—is it practicable? If you put the question so much at large, as simply to say that you are to compare the condition of the farm at the beginning with its condition at the end of the lease, without having reference to special items of improvement, you would raise a question of the vaguest and widest kind. There are many improvements, in a sense, which are realty only works done in the execution of the tenant's duty, such as tilling and cleaning his land. These are points which it is suggested should be put into the Schedule, and made subjects of compensation; but I venture to say that these are simply ordinary agricultural operations, which it is the duty of the tenant to perform, both for his own interest and the interest of the holding. The theory of this Bill is, that where a man has done something beyond ordinary husbandry, something capable of definition, of proof, and of ascertainment, which adds to the value of his holding, he should be paid for it by way of compensation; and we think the proper and just mode is to schedule the items of improvement in the way we have done. Whether the Schedules would be better for being remodelled, or added to, or excepted from,

    1801
    are matters for discussion and determination in Committee; but on the general principle that scheduling is the right way, and that compensation should be given only for specified and definable items of value added by the tenant, we are disposed to adhere to the view presented by the Bill. The next criticism of the hon. Member for Forfarshire related to the requirement as to improvements contained in the first head of the Schedule, that they should be made with the consent of the landlord. Now, there is a great difference between works of the character there dealt with, and those things which are, like manuring, necessary for really getting the full advantage and benefit from the farm. You have building houses and doing things which alter the subject of letting; and it would be a very strong thing to say that where a man takes a holding under a contract, he should, without the consent of the lessor, be allowed to alter the character of the holding. Upon that ground we maintain that it is proper to distinguish between improvements which would alter the character of the holding, and improvements as to the propriety and necessity of which no two intelligent men could differ. Drainage, which occupies the 2nd Schedule, stands in an intermediate position between improvements for which we propose to require the consent of the landlords, and the third class of improvements, such as manuring, for which neither notice nor consent is required. And the reason for that distinction is this—that manuring and the like are necessary operations. Drainage may also be a necessary operation, and so it is allowed without consent; but then it is an operation of a much more important and extraordinary character; it is not a thing done every seed time—it is a thing done, probably, once during the currency of a lease; and notice is necessary to enable the landlord to say, first, whether he will do it; secondly, whether he can agree with the tenant in regard to it; or, thirdly, whether he will allow the tenant to do it, and submit to pay compensation; and I may add, fourthly, to obtain and preserve evidence as to how it was done. All these things seem to justify the placing of drainage in a separate category. With regard to what was urged by the hon. Member for Forfarshire in respect to cottages, it is,
    1802
    no doubt, exceedingly desirable that better habitations should be provided for farm labourers in many parts of the country; but I hope that this is a matter in which landlords have not been, and will not be, altogether neglectful. It is certainly much more considered now than in times past; and if the principle of classification which we have proposed is adopted, it would fall under the first, and not under the second or third heads. Of course, the landlord would get a charge on his estate, if he thought necessary. The next point that my hon. Friend the Member for Forfarshire dealt with was that part of the Bill which proposes to make the Act compulsory, and he welcomed that, in so far as it went; but he seemed to have some misgivings as to whether difficulties might not arise in defining what were fair and reasonable agreements. Now, no doubt, it is a thing that will require care and skill in working out; but, at the same time, it is not a problem that is insoluble, and we should hope that no very serious difficulty will be experienced in solving it. It would be a simple matter for inquiry whether the arrangement made at the commencement of a lease was then a fair arrangement. If it appeared to be fair, it would be allowed to stand; if it was not fair, it would be disregarded. We are not unfamiliar, in law, with examples of contracts being sustained only if they were fair and reasonable. We know that, in railway law, agreements do not stand between Railway Companies which are supposed to have a monopoly and the trader, if they are not fair and reasonable; and the Courts have no difficulty in determining what is a reasonable agreement and what is not. Cases have arisen in which a Railway Company has said in a contract of carriage—"We shall not be responsible for the thefts of our servants." But the Law Courts hold that such a stipulation is neither just nor reasonable, and therefore they do not allow it to prevail. I do not apprehend that there would be any greater difficulty—probably there would be less difficulty—in dealing with the question of what is fair and reasonable, as a matter of agricultural arrangement, at the commencement of a lease than is already experienced in other matters. My hon. Friend the Member for Forfarshire said that he preferred the mode of settlement

    1803
    provided by the Act of 1875. I am not quite sure whether he was entirely correct in supposing that there was such a difference, especially in regard to the third class of improvements as stated in the Schedule of this Bill, between its provisions and those of the Act of 1875 as he seems to imagine. If he refers to that Act, I think he will see that there is a variation in the principle adopted with regard to manures as compared with that applied to drainage and certain other improvements, such as buildings. Each is determined very much in the same manner as that which we now propose. My hon. Friend complained that there was no power conferred by this Bill to assign leases. I know that is a point as to which a good deal of difference of opinion has been entertained; but our system has been tried, and, on the whole, I do not think we have found that our Scottish leases have worked badly. They are generally for a period of 19 years. By them, generally, assignees and sub-tenants were excluded; and my hon. Friend can hardly expect that where a lessee has agreed that assignees shall be excluded—where the landlord has, in effect, said to the tenant—"I will deal with you; but I shall not deal with anyone who may become your assignee or sub-tenant"—it would be right to interfere with that stipulation, for which a consideration may have been given, possibly in a lower rent, or otherwise, when the lease was entered into. It is by no means uncommon that when a landlord comes to let his farm, he says—"If I get a good tenant, I will take a less rent." But if he has let his farm for less, because the tenant is a good tenant, the tenant has got the consideration in his lower rent, for agreeing that his lease should not be assignable. There was one point in regard to which I felt very much to sympathize with my hon. Friend, and that was in regard to the hardships that often result from the death of a tenant. There is no doubt that hardship is sometimes experienced where nobody but the heir-at-law can take up the lease, and where, perhaps, the widow and family have to be turned out. In the proposal to allow a bequest of leases, I apprehend my hon. Friend was coming nearer to sound principle than he was in dealing with assignation, and to some of the other points he men-
    1804
    tioned. In this connection I desire to say a word in regard to the appropriateness of the provisions of this Bill to the system of lease-holding in Scotland. I know that some people think it is not so appropriate to Scotland, where we have long leases—19 years usually—as to England. I venture to say that the idea is not well founded. I can hardly conceive any case to which the provisions of the Bill are more appropriate than to that of a 19 years' lease. One of the commonest experiences at the commencement of a 19 years' lease has been—but I hope it will not be so in future—that the condition of the farm had been let down, simply because the tenant would get no compensation for his improvements. The consequence of that was that the incoming tenant was occupied during five or six years in getting the farm up to its proper standard. Then, perhaps, he would keep the farm for six, or eight, or 10 years in high condition; and then, for the remainder of the lease, he, like his predecessor, having no security for his improvements, would begin to take what he could out of the farm, so that the result was that the farm was only in its highest and best condition of cultivation during about half the duration of the lease. We believe that, by providing for compensation as we have done by this Bill, we shall insure that the normal standard shall be uniformly maintained throughout. The incoming tenant will find the farm in high condition, and the outgoing tenant will leave it in the like condition. Therefore, I venture to say that the Bill is, if possible, more appropriate to our system, where, undoubtedly, the durability of tenure for 19 years did conduce to a high standard in the middle of the lease, although it allowed a somewhat low standard in the beginning and end of a lease. We believe that we shall henceforth see a high standard maintained throughout. There were various other points as to which I should have desired to speak; but I have already occupied too much of the time of the House, and we are very hopeful, as there appears to be a general consensus of opinion in favour of the principles of the Bill, that we may obtain the second reading at this Sitting. There are, of course, other matters which we shall be glad to consider and to discuss in Committee; but I submit that there

    1805
    has been a clear case made out for reading the Bill a second time now, and for the House accepting the main principles upon which the Bill has been based.
    SIR ALEXANDER GORDONsaid, that no hon. Member who had addressed the House had described, in terms sufficiently strong, the great disappointment felt by the tenant farmers of Scotland on the appearance of the Bill, and especially on one part which had been referred to by the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. M'Lagan), and to which he (Sir Alexander Gordon) was sorry the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate had not referred—the absence of any provision for giving the tenant farmer the result of his good cultivation. The whole Bill was devoted to compensation for particular outlays; but there was one class of improvement which was as beneficial as any other, and that was a continued course of cultivation. That ought to be provided for. The Bill as drawn was, in fact, simply a premium upon slovenly cultivation, rather than a measure in the interests of good cultivation. He would explain what he meant. Take the case of two farms of the same size and condition in every respect, with a lease for 19 years, at the rent, say, of£300 a-year. The man who cultivated his farm with care and attention was placed at a disadvantage in comparison with the man who treated his holding with proportionate neglect, inasmuch as the rent of the former would be raised, whilst that of the latter would remain as it was. The good tenant might then be removed to make room for the man who was willing to pay the increased rent. Any Act which introduced such a practice could not be drawn upon sound principles; and he believed that that was one reason why the farmers were so greatly disappointed with the Bill. He was very much struck with the reference of the hon. Member for Linlithgow to questions of drainage and building being referred to arbitration. He (Sir Alexander Gordon) believed that such a system would hold out many inducements for carrying out improvements, and that it would give great satisfaction to the tenants. He should, therefore, like to see the system carried out farther than was now proposed. It was already the constant practice in Scotland for disputes between landlord
    1806
    and tenant to be settled by an arbitrator appointed by the Sheriff of the county. That was actually the law of the land now in England and Scotland, disputes being settled in the County Courts in England and the Sheriff Courts in Scotland; while applications were made in England under the Agricultural Holdings Act, and in Scotland by the custom of the country. As to compensation, he thought the test of value to the incoming tenant was not one that ought to be adhered to. It ought to be the value of the holding as it really existed. The incoming tenant might have in view objects different from those of the outgoing tenant; the latter might have erected buildings unsuitable to the objects of the other; and every improvement ought to be considered in its relation to the original purposes of the holding. He thought also the erection of the buildings should include cottages for farm labourers employed on the holdings. There was no allusion to them in the Bill, and he thought that was a very great omission. He was sorry the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate did not intimate that he would be ready to consider an Amendment of that nature.
    THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR)was understood to say that he would consider any Amendment in that direction.
    SIR ALEXANDER GORDONsaid, he had not heard that part of the right hon. and learned Gentleman's speech; but he was sure many Amendments would be moved in the interests of tenant farmers and labourers in order to make it more acceptable than the present.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Bill read a second time, and committed for Monday 11th June.

  BALLOT ACT CONTINUANCE AND AMENDMENT BILL.
  (Sir Charles Dilke, Secretary Sir William Harcourt, Mr. Chamberlain, Mr. Attorney General.)
  BALLOT ACT CONTINUANCE AND AMENDMENT BILL.

    [BILL 5.] COMMITTEE.
    Order for Committee read.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
    MR. BERESFORD HOPE, in rising to oppose the Motion, said, it was hardly consistent to go on with a Bill as to which the promise had been definitely and repeatedly given that it should be only taken at an hour admitting of substantive debate. No doubt, there was a kind of religious compact between the Government and their supporters that this Continuance Bill should be passed; and with regard to the Act itself, he (Mr. Beresford Hope) would confess that it was somewhat sweetened by the abolition of the hustings. Still, his objection to the ballot in itself was unmitigated; and he would not submit to the tyranny which strove to press this thing upon the House as an immemorial inheritance for some ten years. At least, the matter now stood in the advantageous position of not being a Party question. In 1874 it gave an impulsive and casual majority to the Tories, and in 1880 to the Liberals; so that in this connection the pot could not call the kettle black on either side. He was free, as a question of simple fact, to proclaim from the house-tops that the ballot had proved itself to be a delusion and a failure. Lord Palmerston used to be laughed at for opposing it with the assertion that it was un-English; but the wisdom of that suggestion could be tested by examining: the legislative condition of so-called free countries elsewhere, where a legislative system existed which was founded on the ballot. In justification of his estimate of the ballot, he would quote the authority of Mr. Justice Manisty against its general tendency. That eminent Judge, at the trial of the Oxford Election Petition, declared that a careful consideration of the evidence which had been adduced led him to the conclusion that, whilst the Ballot Act had, to a great extent, done away with what might be called the simple evil of undue influence, it had created a compound evil of a worse kind; for while, under the old system of open voting, a man who had been bribed could scarcely avoid voting according to his promise, now there were many cases of persons who promised to vote for a candidate, who, in the end, broke their promise. Were they sinners at Oxford above all the boroughs of England? If such things could take place at Oxford under the influence of the Home Secretary, what must happen in boroughs
    1808
    that returned Conservative Members? If the Government really did believe in their own Bill, let them give the House a night to discuss it, so that the subject might be thoroughly thrashed out, and, if possible, made to disprove the criticisms of the Election Judges. In his opinion, the Corrupt Practices Bill ought first to become the law of the land, so that the electors might really know their duty, and then the Ballot Act might take its place as an appendix to it. He was always very loth to take advantage of the Forms of the House for the purpose of preventing legislation being proceeded with; but he could not help, in this instance, appealing to the right hon. Baronet the President of the Local Government Board to postpone the measure, and give a Morning Sitting for its discussion. The Bill was anomalous, if it dealt with two distinct things—namely, the hours of polling and the form of voting. Those two things had no natural connection with each other.
    It being ten minutes before Seven of the clock, the Debate stood adjourned till this day.

    WAYS AND MEANS.
      CONSOLIDATED FUND (NO. 3) BILL.
      Resolution [June 4] reported, and agreed to:—Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir ARTHUR OTWAY, Mr. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, and Mr. COURTNEY.

    PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (CORRUPT AND ILLEGAL PRACTICES) [PAYMENT OF COSTS AND EXPENSES].
    Committee to consider of authorising the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of the Expenses of the Director of Public Prosecutions, including the remuneration of his representative, and of the costs of prosecution on indictment, in like manner as the costs of the prosecution for felony in Ireland, and for crimes in Scotland are paid; and the payment, out of the Consolidated Fund, in the first instance, of any costs (not being costs of prosecution or indictment) payable by a county or borough, under the provisions of any Act of the present Session for the better prevention of Corrupt and Illegal Practices at Parliamentary Elections (Queen's Recommendation signified), To-morrow.
    It being five minutes to Seven of the clock, the House suspended its Sitting.
    The House resumed its Sitting at Nine of the clock.

  STATE-AIDED EMIGRATION.

    RESOLUTION.
    MR. RANKIN, who had the following Notice upon the Paper:—
    "That, having in view the great and constant increase in the population of this Country, and the consequent difficulty experienced by the working classes in finding sufficient employment, this House is of opinion that a judicious system of State-aided emigration to our own Colonies is both just and politic,"
    rose to speak to the Motion, when——
    Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members not being present,
    House adjourned at five minutes after Nine o'clock.