Commons Sitting of 24 March 1882

MINUTES.
SUPPLY—considered in Committee—CIVIL SERVICES, Classes I., II., III., IV., V., VI., VII., AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS.
PRIVATE BILL (by Order)—Third Reading—Lower Thames Valley Main Sewerage Board.
PUBLIC BILLS—Ordered—First Reading—Duke of Albany (Establishment) * [112].
Second Reading—Partnerships [27].
Select Committee—Arklow Harbour [96], nominated; Bills of Exchange* [70], Mr. Asher, Mr. Orr Ewing, Mr. Armitstead, Sir Edmund Lechmere, and Mr. Gibson added.
Report—Drainage (Ireland) Provisional Order * [94]; Metropolitan Commons Supplemental * [92].
Third Reading—Consolidated Fund (No. 2), and passed.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
  LOWER THAMES VALLEY MAIN SEWERAGE BOARD BILL (by Order).

    THIRD READING.
    Order for Third Reading read.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."—(Mr. Dodds.)
    MR. RAIKESsaid, he proposed to take a course which was not frequent in that House, and which, he hoped, would never become frequent, for it was most undesirable that questions connected with the details of a Private Bill should be re-opened on the third reading. It might be presumed that the details of such a Bill had been carefully examined by the Committee to which it had been referred upstairs; but he did not think this objection could be fairly taken now, seeing that the present measure was one for the purpose of providing for the payment of certain costs incurred by a District Board in promoting legislation in the year 1879, and really the question which the Committee upstairs had to decide was one which hardly admitted of such a tribunal dealing with it in more ways than one. The Bill, under ordinary circumstances, would have been an unopposed Bill, because the parties whose interest it was chiefly to oppose it were, by the recognized practice of the House, excluded from a locus standi to oppose the Bill, because they were constituents of the District Board which promoted it. That being so, a Bill of this sort generally went to the Chairman of Ways and Means as an unopposed Bill, and was adjudicated upon by him without calling on the parties to be heard. In this particular case, an opposition was offered by 11 ratepayers of the district, and these gentlemen might have been excluded from hearing before the Committee if the promoters had chosen to take an objection to their locus standi, and by that means have shut them out. But the promoters, with an adroitness which he certainly thought did them credit, did not object to the locus standi of these 11 unfortunate ratepayers, because they thought that it would tell much more in their favour if it appeared that the Bill was only opposed by 11 out

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    of a population of 118,000. But everybody who had the means of obtaining competent legal advice in the district would necessarily have been informed by every counsel they consulted that it was not of any use to present a Petition against the Bill; and that, if they did, their locus standi would be certainly disallowed. Therefore, it was only left to these 11 persons, who could scarcely have been able to obtain experienced advice, to come before the Committee, by whom their case was certain to be rapidly disposed of. Indeed, the Committee could hardly come to any conclusion but one, because, when the promoters pointed to the circumstance that, out of 118,000, only 11 persons were found to oppose this particular measure, it was a very reasonable and natural conclusion that the bulk of the population of the district was entirely in its favour. Therefore, he did not think the question of this Bill having been before the Committee really bore at all on the issue which had now come before the House. He ventured to call the attention of the House to the matter because it was one which occupied the attention of the House some three years ago, and certainly was to him a matter of very great interest and very great anxiety. At that time he had the honour to hold the Office which his right hon. Friend (Mr. Lyon Playfair) now occupied, and he frequently was obliged to make up his mind and to advise the House on matters in regard to which the arguments on either side were very closely balanced, and upon which it was rather difficult to arrive at a satisfactory conclusion. In point of fact, the difficulties of any case rendered it more and more anxious and doubtful work to advise the House satisfactorily as to the conclusion it should adopt. But, in this particular case, he had felt it his duty, after hearing all the arguments, to advise the House to throw out the Bill, and the ground on which he asked the House to throw it out was simply this. This Board for the Lower Thames Valley was formed under the Provisional Order Act of 1877, for the purpose of carrying out a system of sewerage for the districts, and he would point out what was the method that was adopted. The Act which was its origin provided, in the 23rd clause of the Schedule of the Act, that they should get their expenses in
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    a certain shape. The clause said that the expenses incurred by the Board in pursuance of the Provisional Order should be defrayed out of the common fund to be contributed by the local authorities of certain districts, and so forth. By the Bill of 1879 the District Board deliberately, for reasons best known to themselves, determined to take action outside the powers assigned to them under the Act by which they had been created. The intention that was clearly visible throughout the whole of the Act was that the District Board should act through and in connection with the Local Government Board, and the result of an application to the Local Government Board for a Provisional Order would have been that the merits of the case would have been inquired into on the spot by one of the Inspectors of the Local Government Board. He would have held an inquiry, at which all the parties would have been represented and would have been heard, and, after his inquiry, the Local Government Board would or would not have recommended the measure to Parliament. But the District Board of the Thames Valley thought they knew better than that. They foresaw that if they were to give effect to the scheme which they desired to carry into effect, and attempted to submit that scheme to an inquiry conducted by a Local Government Inspector, all parties whose rights were affected and interests concerned would have an opportunity of being heard on that inquiry. And they were equally well advised that if they came to Parliament, it would be in their power to shut the mouths of every single person whose interests were affected or whose rights were concerned except they happened to be the owners of the land they proposed to deal with. He remembered it was stated in the debate which occurred upon the Bill that some 24 or 25 schemes were submitted to the District Board, and that 23 of those schemes—all of which were perfectly practicable—could have been given effect to under a Provisional Order; but the District Board rejected every one of them, and selected the only one out of 24 schemes which came before them which required an application to be made to the House of Commons, because it touched the principle of water rights. He believed that their sole justification for the course they took was that their

    1801
    Bill of 1879 interfered with certain water rights, and therefore it was necessary to make an application to Parliament; but he ventured to state that, if the District Board had thought it proper to adopt any of the 23 schemes submitted to them by competent engineers, it would not have been necessary to come to that House at all. It was urged with great force in 1879 by his hon. and learned Friend the present Solicitor General that a great and obvious wrong would be done if the House allowed its Rules to be employed as a means of excluding from a fair hearing the owners of property and the ratepayers of a particular district. That being so, the House adopted that view, and the Bill was rejected. It was rejected, not with any regard to the precise merits of the particular scheme, but distinctly on the ground that it was an example of mala fides on the part of the promoters, who sought to use the Forms of the House as a means of excluding from opposition the parties who were most interested in the scheme. They were told that the unfortunate District Board were only doing what they were obliged to do, because they could not get what they wanted with a Provisional Order. But, subsequently, they did go for a Provisional Order, and there was a local inquiry, conducted at considerable expense. But, although it was expensive, at least it was fair, and the persons who objected to the Bill of 1879 were successful at the inquiry before the Inspector of the Local Government Board, and hence they had heard no more of this precise scheme; it had passed to the limbo of many other abortions. Under these circumstances, he did not think the House would do well, without a word of inquiry, to consent to the proposal to alter the law for the benefit of certain individuals who had been detected in abusing the Forms of the House and in trying to inflict a substantial injury upon persons who had a right to be heard. He had therefore felt it his duty to bring the matter at this stage before the House. He intended to make no Motion upon it, nor would he take upon himself the responsibility of dividing the House upon the question. He had rather that that responsibility rested with his right hon. Friend the Chairman of Ways and Means. But he did think that he had a right to complain with regard to one of
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    the Papers that had been sent abroad on that occasion. He sometimes wished that there was some Order of the House to prohibit their circulation. He would only say that he felt it his duty to take exception to the first statement which that Paper contained. It was stated by the promoters that on Friday, the 24th of March, at the time of Private Business, he (Mr. Raikes) intended to move the rejection of the Bill on the third reading. He called attention to this paragraph for this reason, that the agent who had charge of the Bill spoke to him at 6 o'clock yesterday, and asked him if he intended to move the rejection of the Bill. He told the agent that it was not his intention to do so, whereupon Mr. Wyatt, the agent in question, told him that that was very satisfactory, and went away. Nevertheless, Mr. Wyatt, in that Paper, which was circulated with a number of others, among Members of the House, made a statement which he knew distinctly to be untrue. He was sorry to express himself so strongly upon the subject, because he had had a good deal of acquaintance with Mr. Wyatt at the time he had official relations with the House, and it was a very pleasant acquaintance. At the same time, he felt bound to indicate to the House any statement contained in a document submitted to Members which was distinctly without foundation, and which might be considered to prejudice the action of any hon. Member on matters of this sort. If the House thought, out of pity, that it was desirable to pass this Bill, and if they thought that the District Board had suffered sufficiently for their rashness, and, he must add, for their sharp practice, in the year 1879, he should have nothing further to say; but he did not think he should be doing right—having a knowledge of the circumstances of the case—if he did not, at all events, give the House an opportunity of expressing an opinion as to whether such knowledge as they now had of the proceedings of the District Board rendered them deserving of the favourable consideration of the House.
    MR. SHIELDsaid, that, in the absence of the hon. Member for East Cheshire (Mr. Legh), who was the Chairman of the Committee to which the Bill was referred, as he (Mr. Shield) had had the honour of sitting on the Committee, he hoped the House would allow him to

    1803
    say a few words in answer to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Preston (Mr. Raikes). The right hon. Gentleman passed no reflection upon the action of the Committee. Indeed, it was obvious that the Committee could come to no other conclusion than to pass the Bill; but he (Mr. Shield) was anxious, if the House would permit him, to state what was the case presented to the Committee, especially as such statement would show that the House itself could take no other course than to permit the Bill, passed by the Committee, to go through its remaining stages. The Bill originally promoted by the District Board was presented in the year 1879, and its object was to provide for the disposal of the sewage of a large district in the Valley of the Thames, lying just outside the limits of London, without allowing it to flow into the Thames. The Board was constituted by an Act of Parliament, and Parliament placed upon the Board certain statutory obligations, which obligations it was their duty to carry out within a period of three years. That being so, how did they set about this duty? They obtained the best plans they could from the most eminent engineers of the day, and they appointed a superintendent engineer to report upon those plans, and eventually, after much labour and consideration, they adopted one of them. The scheme they adopted, it was quite true, had certain features and incidents connected with it which rendered it impossible that it could be authorized by the Local Government Board, and it was therefore necessary, if it were to be carried into effect, that the promoters should make an application to Parliament. The suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman was, and it was a very injurious suggestion to the Board, that the features of the scheme which rendered it inappropriate for a Provisional Order were not bonâ fide inserted in it, but that there were patches adroitly foisted upon the scheme by the promoters to give them an excuse for proceeding by Bill instead of by Provisional Order. It would take far more time to meet that suggestion than the House would probably care to allow him; but he certainly thought that the right hon. Gentleman ought not to have made such a serious accusation, and that he ought not to have talked about the "sharp
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    practice" of these gentlemen who, at all events, were gentlemen of position, and had undertaken the discharge of most important and onerous public duties. He would not enter into the defence of these gentlemen; but if hon. Members would kindly read the Papers which had been circulated, he would be quite content to accept their judgment upon the question whether the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman was or was not well-founded. Eventually the Bill of the District Board came before the House of Commons, and it was rejected on the second reading, notwithstanding that the then President of the Local Government Board expressed a strong opinion that these gentlemen were honestly endeavouring to perform the duty that Parliament had cast upon them. He trusted that the House would not entertain any Motion now for the rejection of the Bill. If they did they would set a very bad example, as the Bill was promoted bonâ fide and was strictly within the precedents of Parliament. Similar Bills had been passed in the interests of the Metropolitan Board of Works, that Board having incurred very heavy expenses in promoting Bills which had been abortive, and they had been allowed to recoup themselves for the expenses they had incurred by a Bill of this nature. In this case it must also be recollected that the work was being done gratuitously, and that the Bill had already passed a Committee upstairs.
    MR. GORSTsaid, he had no wish to detain the House for more than a few minutes; but he wished to remove an impression which must have been produced by his right hon. Friend the Member for Preston (Mr. Raikes). He understood his right hon. Friend to complain that, after having last night given Notice to the promoters of the Bill that he did not intend to oppose it, a statement had been sent out to the Members of the House to the effect that he intended to move the rejection of the Bill at 4 o'clock that day. He was sure that his right hon. Friend would quite understand that printed statements of this kind were not got up at the last minute, but required a little time in order to print and circulate them. He believed the real fact was that the statement was sent out to hon. Members some time before his right hon. Friend informed the

    1805
    agent that he did not intend to move the rejection of the Bill. His right hon. Friend would also recollect that the Bill was to have been considered last Tuesday instead of to-day, and that if there was to be any opposition it would have been unreasonable to expect that the promoters would not take all the steps they could for the protection of their own interests.
    MR. SPENCERsaid, he should not have obtruded himself upon the attention of the House if it had not been for the fact that he had been also a Member of the Committee with his hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Shield); and he wished, therefore, to express what his view was when the gentleman representing the Petitioners came before the Committee. They heard the whole of the statement for the promoters of the Bill, and nobody appeared to oppose, until at length a gentleman put in an appearance, and proceeded to make what he called a statement against the Bill. Now, he thought that all the Members of the Committee would agree that this gentleman brought forward no reasons whatever why the Bill should not be passed, but rather indulged in an acrimonious discussion with the promoters of the Bill, which was totally irrelevant to its primary object. Having listened carefully to everything that this gentleman had to say, the Committee came to the conclusion that they ought to pass the Bill; and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Preston (Mr. Raikes) admitted that they could have come to no other conclusion. The right hon. Gentleman himself had brought forward no reason why the Bill should be rejected, and he had stated that the Local Board of East Moulsley, who opposed the Bill in 1879, had withdrawn their opposition. Indeed, there was nobody opposing the Bill at all, except 11 gentlemen from East Moulsley. The Committee were acquainted with all these facts, and having talked them, over among themselves, they came unanimously to the conclusion that the Bill ought to pass. It must be borne in mind that only 11 persons, with a very small interest in the district, gave notice of opposition to the Bill, out of a population of 118,000. He apologized to the House for having troubled them with these few remarks: but he had felt that, having had the
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    honour of sitting on the Committee, it was his duty to make them.
    MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, that as his right hon. Friend the Member for Preston (Mr. Raikes) had made no Motion for the rejection of the Bill, it was scarcely worth while to continue the discussion; but as he (Mr. Sclater-Booth) was privy to all these complicated series of transactions, he thought it right to say that although, in his judgment, the District Board took the wrong course, and selected the wrong mode of proceeding, he had never any reason to suppose that they had adopted that course with any mala fides, nor did he think that their object in proceeding by Bill was to prevent an investigation being conducted on the spot. There was no reason to believe that it was so, although he must repeat that, in his judgment, the course they pursued was wrong. Under the circumstances, he did not think that the House should hesitate now to pass the Bill, for everyone would be willing to admit that the promoters must be protected, to some extent, in regard to the expenses they had incurred.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Bill read the third time, and passed.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  QUESTIONS.

    METROPOLIS—ELECTIONS TO APPOINTMENTS IN THE CITY OF LONDON.
    MR. FIRTHasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether his attention has been called to the fact that, on Thursday last, the Common Council of the City of London elected a pawnbroker of advanced age to the office of collector of wine dues for the Port of London, at a salary of £400 a-year; whether it is the fact that, in order to such election, the Common Council successively suspended their 83rd standing order, which prevents the election of present or recent members of the Council to offices in the gift of that body, and the 69th standing order, which provides that no bankrupt or insolvent person shall be elected to office under the Corporation; and, whether, in the forthcoming Local Government Bill, he will consider the propriety of excluding from the pension and compensation clauses of the Bill persons hereafter ap-

    1807
    pointed to any offices which may be thereby modified or abolished?
    SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: Sir, I have no authority over the appointments made by the Corporation of the City of London, and I ought not to express any judgment either for or against them.

    RAILWAYS (7 & 8 VICT. c. 85)— ARTIZANS' TRAINS.
    MR. BUXTONasked the President of the Board of Trade, Whether the Act 7 and 8 Vic. c. 85, 1844, which imposes obligations on Railway Companies of running cheap Artizans' Trains (Clause 6), and relieves them from the payment of the Railway Passenger Tax for passengers carried by such trains (Clause 9) is still in force, or has ever been repealed or modified by subsequent legislation; and, whether any Railway Companies are now exempt from the obligations imposed by this Act either from the fact of their incorporation prior to the passing of the Act, or from the exercise of the discretionary powers of the Board of Trade, as provided under certain conditions by Clause 6 of the same Act?
    MR. CHAMBERLAIN: Sir, the Act referred to in the first part of the Question is not accurately described, because it only relieves the Railway Companies from the Railway Passenger Tax where the passengers are carried at a charge of less than 1d. a-mile. The Act is still in force, and has not been repealed or modified by any subsequent legislation. None of the Railway Companies are exempt from the obligations imposed by the Act.

    STATE OF IRELAND—THE COUNTY OF WATERFORD.
    MR. R. POWERasked Mr. Attorney General for Ireland, If his attention has been called to the charge of Judge Harrison to the Waterford County grand jury, in which he said,
    "I am very happy to be able to tell you, on the occasion of my first visit to your beautiful county, that there is not much business of a criminal nature to come before you; the number of cases in which the Crown will send up bills to you is only six, and they are of a very trivial character. These cases are of an ordinary kind, and such as you must expect in a large community like this;"
    and, why he still considers it necessary
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    to keep so peaceful a county under the provisions of the Coercion Act?
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON): Sir, I have seen the report in two newspapers of the learned Judge's charge to the Waterford County Grand Jury. There were only six criminal cases tried. This, however, did not represent the reported but undetected crimes, which included firing into dwellings and maiming of cattle. At present the proscription of the county of Waterford cannot be revoked.

    WATER SUPPLY (METROPOLIS).
    MR. FIRTHasked the President of the Local Government Board, Whether the Reports upon the London Water Supply, prepared by Dr. Tidy, Dr. Olding, and Dr. Crookes, and which are circulated as being Reports "presented to the President of the Local Government Board," are prepared with the authority or at the request or expense of the Local Government Board?
    MR. DODSON: Sir, these Reports are not prepared with the authority or at the request or expense of the Local Government Board. They are prepared at the request, and I presume at the expense, of the Water Companies. They are addressed to the Board; but this is a purely voluntary proceeding on the part of their authors.

    PROTECTION OF PERSON AND PROPERTY (IRELAND) ACT, 1881—PATRICK MURPHY.
    MR. SEXTONasked Mr. Attorney General for Ireland, Whether Patrick Murphy, of Kerry, has now been nearly ten months imprisoned under the Coercion Act, and has only once received notice of remand, at the end of the first three months; whether, immediately after the arrest of Patrick Murphy, the house in the occupation of his wife and children was burnt to the ground, by order of the agent of Lord Kenmare, Patrick Murphy's landlord; whether the Killarney magistrates, on the 28th ultimo, fined Mrs. Murphy 22 s. for occupying a hut which had been put up to shelter herself and her children; whether Patrick Murphy applied for six days' release on parole, to provide a shelter for his family; whether the said parole was granted; and, whether, considering the

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    length of imprisonment and the circumstances detailed, the Government will now order the release of Patrick Murphy?
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON): Sir, the hon. Member asks me six Questions. As to the first, Patrick Murphy was arrested on the 23rd of May last, and has been since detained. His case was reconsidered every three months, and on each occasion the decision was certified to the Clerks of the Crown for Kerry and Dublin, in compliance with the provisions of the Statute. As to the second Question, the house was destroyed nine months before Murphy was arrested, and not after his arrest. As to the third Question, Lord Kenmare's property was trespassed on, and a hut built there by the Land League for Murphy's wife, who took possession of it, and was twice summoned for the trespass, convicted, and fined, in each case, 10 s., with 2s. costs. Notwithstanding this, the trespass was persistently repeated; and she was, therefore, summoned a third time, convicted again, and committed in default of payment of the fine. As to the last three Questions, Murphy applied to be released on parole for 12 days, and his application is now before his Excellency. Of course, if the husband and wife have been arrested, the children are naturally deprived of the protection of their parents.
    MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORasked if the right hon. and learned Gentleman would have any objection to lay upon the Table a Return showing the number of tenement processes brought by Lord Kenmare against his tenants, and the number of houses burned down on the property?
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON)could not see the exact utility of such a Return, but he would ask about it.

    STATE OF IRELAND (WICKLOW CO.)—CARRICKBYRNE LODGE.
    MR. REDMONDasked Mr. Attorney General for Ireland, Whether it is a fact that for some months past Carrickbyrne Lodge, county Wexford, the residence of Mr. Browne Clayton, has been occupied by police; and, if so, what is the nature of their duties there, and if they are paid for as extra police by the county?
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON): Sir, since the 16th of January a party of Constabulary has been stationed in Carrickbyrne Lodge for the purpose of protection and ordinary constabulary duty in preserving the peace of the district; but they are not paid for as extra police by the county.
    MR. REDMONDasked whether the district required to be protected?
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON): I take it for granted that that is so.

    RIVERS CONSERVANCY AND FLOODS PREVENTION BILL.
    MR. HENEAGEasked the President of the Local Government Board, If he will introduce a Clause in Committee on the Rivers Conservancy and Floods Prevention Bill, to enable the Conservancy Boards to make provisions for a good supply of water in the uplands in times of severe drought, should it be decided to include uplands within the rateable area?
    MR. DODSON: Sir, the Bill introduced by the Government in the House of Lords last year contained a clause to the effect indicated in the Question. That clause was omitted by the Lords' Committee, and was not re-inserted by the Committee of the Commons. Under these circumstances, I do not propose to introduce such a clause in the present Bill.

    THE ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY—SUB-CONSTABLE FORBES.
    MR. METGEasked Mr. Attorney General for Ireland, Whether his attention has been called to the case of Sub-Constable Forbes, of the Kells police force, who, on the 21st of October last, was fined £3 for being drunk, by a court of inquiry held at Kells, which fine was afterwards confirmed by the Inspector General, notwithstanding the evidence given by two medical doctors of high standing to the effect that Forbes was not drunk, but suffering from "ear vertigo," a complaint, the symptoms of which are of a similar character to those manifested by a person under the influence of drink; and whether, under the circumstances, he will have the fine remitted?
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON): Sir,

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    the Court of Inquiry into this charge examined several witnesses. Among those called for the defence were two medical gentlemen, one of whom, having seen the defendant one hour and 25 minutes after the charge was made, gave it as his opinion that the defendant was then sober; the other, having seen the defendant two hours after the charge was made, gave it as his opinion that the swaying motion and staggering gait were caused by "ear vertigo." The Court, however, on consideration of the whole evidence, came to the conclusion that the charge was established; and the Inspector General, on reviewing the proceedings of the Court, confirmed them. Under the circumstances, the fine cannot be interfered with.
    MR. METGEasked whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman had seen the evidence of the doctor?
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON): I have only seen the extract which I have read to the House.
    MR. METGEsaid, this was a matter of great importance to the Police Force. One of the doctors was a most eminent man, and he had examined the constable, and found him to be suffering from ear vertigo, and not from drink. He had found his pulse quite feeble, and his hands bloodless.
    MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. Member wish to ask another Question?
    MR. METGEsaid, he wished to ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman whether he had seen that portion of the evidence?
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON): Sir, I have not seen that part of the evidence; but I take it for granted that the Court was satisfied as to the condition of the constable.

    PROTECTION OF PERSON AND PROPERTY (IRELAND) ACT, 1881—OWEN BREHENY.
    MR. SEXTONasked Mr. Attorney General for Ireland, "Whether he is aware that Owen Breheny, of Geevagh, county Sligo, has now been over nine months in prison, under the authority of the Coercion Act, on suspicion of having been concerned in an illegal assembly; whether Owen Breheny was, in the first instance, summoned to the petty ses-
    1812
    sions on the charge in question, together with a number of other persons; whether, whilst Brebeny was arrested under the Coercion Act, before the case came on for hearing, the other persons were regularly tried and acquitted; whether a person arrested under the Coercion Act on the same day as Owen Brebeny, and in the same neighbourhood, was released some months ago; and, whether, under all the circumstances, namely, the acquittal of the other persons, the release of a man from the same neighbourhood, arrested at the same time, and the length of time, nine months, that Owen Brebeny has been in prison, he will now direct his release?
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON): Sir, the hon. Member asks me five Questions. In reply to the first three, Breheny was arrested on the 20th of June last. He was not summoned to Petty Sessions, but nine other persons were summoned; they were not acquitted, but were bound over to keep the peace. As to the fourth and fifth Questions of the hon. Member, it is the fact that a person arrested on the same day, and in the same neighbourhood, has been released, and Breheny's case also is, I am informed, at present under his Excellency's consideration.

    PROTECTION OF PERSON AND PROPERTY (IRELAND) ACT, 1881—JOHN RYAN.
    MR. SEXTONasked Mr. Attorney General for Ireland, Whether he is aware that John Ryan, of Ballykeating, county Galway, now, and for some time past, imprisoned in Dundalk Gaol as a suspect, is the tenant of a farm, which, since his arrest, has been left in the care of his mother and sister only, he having no male relative to attend to it; and, whether he will release John Ryan for ten days or a fortnight, on parole, to enable him to buy seed for his farm, and enable him to have the agricultural operations proper to this season carried out upon his holding?
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON): Sir, I have made inquiries into this case, but have not had a reply. I must ask the hon. Member to postpone the Question until a future day.

    STATE OF IRELAND—ALLEGED IM- PRISONMENT OF A BOY FOR PURCHASING A COPY OF "UNITED IRELAND."
    MR. SEXTONasked Mr. Attorney General for Ireland, Whether it is true that, a few days since, at Bruff, in the county Limerick, a boy named Ahearne was sent by the Local Bench to gaol for a month (in default of finding bail for six months), the charge against him being that he had bought a copy of "United Ireland" in the shop of a local newsvendor; whether the magistrates acted legally in the infliction of such a sentence; and, whether he will release the boy?
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON): Sir, Ahearne was summoned for obstructing a constable in the discharge of his duty. He was ordered by the Bench to enter into his own recognizances in £5, with two sureties in £2 10 s. each, to be of good behaviour for one month, and, in default, to be committed for a like period. He refused to enter into recognizances, and was accordingly committed. Under these circumstances, I cannot recommend his release; he has only to enter into the recognizances to behave himself, and then he will be entitled to be discharged as of right.
    MR. SEXTONasked the right hon. and learned Gentleman to explain the nature of the obstruction. The only evidence against the boy, as he was informed, was that he had paid a penny for a copy of the United Ireland newspaper.
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON): Sir, I am informed that is not so, nor anything like what occurred. A constable entered the shop for the purpose of obtaining a paper, and this person, who is over 17 years old, officiously interfered and snatched up the paper in a defiant manner, and contrary to law and authority. I have no hesitation in giving my opinion that the policeman was obstructed, and I think the Bench would have been wrong if on that evidence they did not bind him to be of good behaviour.
    MR. SEXTON: Had the boy not paid for the paper, and did it not belong to him?
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON): No,
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    Sir, he had no interest in the paper, pecuniary or otherwise. As stated to me, his interference was purely officious, and in defiance of law and authority.

    LAW AND JUSTICE (SCOTLAND)—SASINE OFFICE CLERKS.
    MR. DICK PEDDIEasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, Whether the Treasury have considered the memorial of the 8th June last, by the third class clerks in the Sasine Office, Edinburgh; and, whether they intend to comply with the requests made by the memorialists?
    LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH: Sir, the Treasury decision upon the Memorial of the third-class clerks in the Sasine Office was communicated to the head of their Department on the 19th of July last. The decision was that the requests of the Memorialists could not be complied with. The Treasury Letter was laid on the Table of the House on the 8th of August last, on the Motion of the right hon. Member for South-West Lancaster (Sir R. Assheton Cross).

    THE IRISH LAND COMMISSION.
    MR. M'COANasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether his attention has been called to the action of the Land Commission in, this year, calling in the half-yearly tithe rent-charges a month earlier than has hitherto been required by the Church Temporalities Commission, that is to say, on the 31st of March instead of the 30th of April; and, whether the Government have sanctioned such action, in view of the present agricultural depression and state of rent payments in Ireland?
    LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH: In the absence of my right hon. Friend, I have been asked by him to answer this Question. The Irish Land Commission have demanded payment of tithe rent-charge five months after it was due, instead of six months. They have done so because their accounts are now made up for the year ending the 31st of March, instead of for that to the 31st of December, as heretofore; and they did not wish to have to state in their annual accounts that the bulk of moneys due five months previously were still in arrear. For this reason they have changed the date of lodgment for the November

    1815
    tithe rent-charge from the 30th of April to the 31st of March. This will not cause any real hardship, as large numbers of those liable have already paid their November rent-charge without question, and no application on reasonable grounds to defer payment until the 30th of April will be refused.

    ARMY—COLONELS OF ARTILLERY AND ENGINEERS.
    MR. MACLIVERasked the Secretary of State for War, If it is intended to confer the rank of Brigadier General on any of the officers commanding the Royal Artillery and Royal Engineers in the Military districts at Home, or at any of the Stations Abroad?
    MR. CHILDERS: No, Sir, it is not my present intention to confer this rank on colonels of Artillery or Engineers; but the rates of consolidated pay for colonels on the Staff belonging to these Corps have been increased under the recent Corrigenda Warrant. We are, as far as possible, abolishing the rank of brigadier general, in some cases substituting for them major generals.

    ARMY (AUXILIARY FORCES)—RETIREMENT OF VOLUNTEER OFFICERS.
    MR. MACLIVERasked the Secretary of State for War, If he is prepared to recommend that officers of Volunteers, who have previously served in the ranks, shall be allowed to reckon the whole or any portion of such service towards retirement?
    MR. CHILDERS: Sir, I presume that my hon. Friend means by the word retirement "honorary rank on retirement." If so, I can only say that I am not prepared, to alter the rule, which requires for honorary rank or a step of honorary rank a certain number of years of commissioned service.

    SPAIN—QUARANTINE.
    COLONEL OWEN WILLIAMSasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether his attention has been called to the vexatious and expensive restrictions lately imposed on British vessels trading to the Spanish Mediterranean Ports, inasmuch as ships direct from England (should they have called at Gibraltar) are subjected to a delay of three days' quarantine, notwithstanding
    1816
    that they carry clean bills of health duly approved and signed by the Spanish Consul at that place; if so, whether he has been in communication with the Spanish Government on the subject; and, in that case, whether he has received a satisfactory explanation of the very unusual course that Government has adopted in ignoring without notice the bills of health issued by their own Consul at Gibraltar?
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: Sir, Her Majesty's Government have received no complaint on the subject.
    COLONEL OWEN WILLIAMSsaid, that he would repeat the Question in a few days. Perhaps, in the meantime, the hon. Gentleman would obtain the information?
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: Sir, I am quite sure that the records of the sanitary authority have been searched, and that no complaints have been received.

    PROTECTION OF PERSON AND PROPERTY (IRELAND) ACT, 1881—PERSONS ARRESTED UNDER THE ACT.
    MR. LEAMYasked the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs, Whether it is true that representations have been made, on the part of the Government of the United States, to Her Majesty's Government with regard to the trial or release of American citizens imprisoned under the Coercion Act in Ireland?
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: Sir, such representations have been made, and they are now under the consideration of Her Majesty's Government.

    CONTAGIOUS DISEASES (ANIMALS) ACT, 1878—SLAUGHTER OF FOREIGN CATTLE AT CREWE—INTENDED ABATTOIRS AT CREWE.
    MR. HENRY TOLLEMACHEasked the Vice President of the Council, If his attention has been called to a proposed scheme for erecting abattoirs at Crewe, in the centre of an agricultural district, for the slaughter of foreign cattle; and, if he is prepared to give his consent to such a proposal?
    MR. MUNDELLA: Sir, no such scheme has been brought under the notice of the Privy Council, and, if it were, we should refuse our sanction, as it is contrary to the provisions of the Act of 1878.

    RELIGIOUS DISSENSIONS (GIBRALTAR) —DR. CANILLA.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURasked the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether the Papers promised on recent events connected with the Roman Catholic Church at Gibraltar would be laid upon the Table before Easter?
    MR. COURTNEY: Sir, we have been promised the proofs of the Papers tomorrow if no unforeseen circumstances occur.

    PARLIAMENT—THE HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT—MEETING OF THE REFORM CLUB.
    CAPTAIN AYLMERasked the First Commissioner of Works, Whether his attention has been called to a paragraph in the "Times" of the 22nd instant, stating that a meeting of members of the Reform Club was held in the Committee Room, No. 15, of this House, with the object of adjusting certain differences connected with the election of members of that Club; whether such meeting was sanctioned by himself, or by any other authority of the House; and, whether the Committee Rooms of this House can be legitimately employed for such a purpose?
    MR. SHAW LEFEVRE: Sir, the responsibility for the use of the Committee Rooms rests, not with myself, but with the Serjeant-at-Arms. He informs me that he frequently gives permission to Members to meet in these Rooms, and I am quite sure that he does so with a wise impartiality. On the occasion in question, I am informed that none but Members of this House were present.

    ENGLAND AND FRANCE—THE CHANNEL TUNNEL SCHEME.
    SIR HARRY VERNEYasked the First Lord of the Treasury, What action Her Majesty's Government will take with regard to the proposed submarine tunnel, uniting England with the Continent, and thus destroying the insular position of our Country, which it is important to maintain for Military considerations, and which might have the effect of diverting from England, now the entrepôt of commerce between the East and the West, a trade highly beneficial to her commercial and shipbuilding interests?
    MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, the hon. Member is no doubt aware that this question has been referred to a scientific Committee for examination. The Report of the Committee will be subjected to the consideration of the military authorities. It will be the duty of the Government to advise the House, at the proper time, what course they should take; but, in the meantime, all the Bills are postponed.
    SIR HARRY VERNEY: But the work will still be going on?
    MR. GLADSTONE: The excavations are proceeding under the surface of the foreshore; and the question as to whose is the title of the foreshore is in dispute. The Board of Trade is giving attention to the subject.

    NAVY—LAUNCH OF H.M.S. "EDINBURGH."
    MR. WILBRAHAMEGERTONasked the Secretary to the Admiralty, Whether he could give the House further information with respect to the stranding of Her Majesty's ship "Edinburgh?"
    MR. TREVELYAN: Sir, the Edinburgh was being towed from the dockyard to Hobb's Point, where she is to be while she is taking in her engines. During the passage the vessel ran on to what is known as the Dockyard Bank. She was moving very slowly and she ran a little way up the shelving bank, said to be soft mud. She remained there about two hours, when she floated off with the tide, and was put safe alongside the pier at Hobb's Point. In a private letter from the Chief Constructor at Pembroke, he says—
    "I do not apprehend the slightest damage. Every single compartment has been minutely examined, and not the slightest sign of weeping, or bending, or buckling of plates or frames is anywhere visible, nor do I think the bilge-pieces have suffered."
    This refers, of course, to an examination made from inside the ship. Captain Parkin tells us that at the earliest opportunity divers will look over the part of the vessel which was in contact with the mud, and that she will be again thoroughly overhauled when she is placed in dock in the course of a few weeks.

    THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND)—MR. ANCKETELL.
    MR. HEALYasked the Attorney General for Ireland, If his attention

    1819
    has been called to the reported conviction of Mr. Ancketell, J.P. co. Monaghan, for assaulting a bailiff; and, whether it is intended to maintain this magistrate in the commission of the peace?
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON): Sir, the hon. Member asks me whether it is intended to maintain the magistrate named in the Question in the Commission of the Peace? The hon. Member has not been correctly informed. This gentleman is not, and has not for some years been, in the Commission of the Peace.

    PROTECTION OF PERSON AND PROPERTY (IRELAND) ACT, 1881—TREATMENT OF PERSONS ARRESTED UNDER THE ACT.
    MR. HEALYasked Mr. Attorney General for Ireland, Whether it is true that the Governor of Limerick Gaol stopped a letter written by Mr. M. Power (suspect) for saying, "if I was in Castleisland I would vote for Mr. Knight to be guardian;" and, if not, if he could state on what ground was the letter kept back; whether he is aware that the Limerick suspects complain that the pipes through their cells have not been heated for some time, although some of them have had to sleep in cells which were quite damp owing to being newly whitewashed; and, whether, as these gentlemen allege that it is quite useless bringing their complaints before the Governor, he will afford an independent inquiry into Mr. Eager's general treatment of prisoners?
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON): Sir, the letter referred to in the first Question of the hon. Member was stopped not on the ground suggested in the Question, which is a statement of Mr. Power's, but because it was not confined to business or personal matters. There has been no such general complaint as suggested in the second Question of the hon. Member. One person did complain, but, as the Governor states, without grounds. As to the third Question, the Prisons Board have more than once made inquiries into complaints by the persons detained in this prison, and their Inspector will shortly be there again and investigate any complaints made to him.

    THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND)—MR. CLIFFORD LLOYD.
    MR. HEALYasked Mr. Attorney General for Ireland, Whether he has seen Mr. Clifford Lloyd's letter to Mr. D. Maloney, of Ennistymon, praising the brave manner in which he defended himself against his assailants, and regretting that "the shots he fired did not take effect;" whether, as Mr. Lloyd refers to "quivering men" who do not defend themselves against attack, he can state the number of Mr. Lloyd's refusals to grant arms licences to farmers in the past twelvemonths; and, whether any record is kept of the number of such refusals all over Ireland?
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON): Sir, it was only while Mr. Clifford Lloyd was stationed in the Kilmallock district that he was licensing officer under the Arms Act. I cannot state the number of instances in which arms licences were refused there; but the suppression of outrage and the present peaceful state of that district show that his discretion was properly exercised in the matter. There is not, I understand, any record kept of the refusals of arms licences all over Ireland.

    PROTECTION OF PERSON AND PROPERTY (IRELAND) ACT, 1881—MR. HODNETT.
    MR. HEALYasked the Attorney General for Ireland, Whether the case of Mr. Richard Hodnett, of Ballydehob, county Cork, who has spent long periods in Limerick, Dundalk, and Naas Gaols, has been reconsidered; and if it is the fact that the district where he was arrested is now quite peaceable?
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON): Sir, during Mr. Hodnett's detention his case has been re-considered every three months, as required by the Statute. The last occasion was the 26th of January. His Excellency is at present inquiring into the state of the Ballydehob district.

    PARLIAMENT—PRIVILEGE—NEW WRIT FOR NORTHAMPTON (MR. BRADLAUGH).
    MR. LABOUCHERE: Sir, I beg, with your permission, to ask the following Questions:—First, whether, having regard to your ruling of the 21st Feb-

    1821
    ruary last, when you allowed me to move as a matter of Privilege a new Writ for Northampton, I am now entitled as a matter of Privilege to move that Mr. Speaker do make out his Warrant to the Clerk of the Crown to issue a Writ for the election of a Member to serve in the present Parliament for the borough of Northampton in place of Charles Brad-laugh, Esq., disabled from sitting and voting in this House by the Resolution of the 6th of March, 1882? Secondly, Sir, whether, in regard to a petition that I have this day presented from the electors of Northampton, having regard to the proceedings of this House in the matter of the Middlesex election of the 29th of April, 1769, I am entitled as a matter of Privilege to move that the electors of the borough of Northampton be heard at the Bar?
    MR. SPEAKER: In reply to the hon. Member's Question, I may say that Motions for new Writs are ordinarily made without Notice, and have precedence as concerning Privilege. Such Motions are founded upon certain events which have recently caused a vacancy—as, for example, the death of a Member, his acceptance of Office, or the report of Election Judges. In such cases there are obvious reasons for giving precedence to a Motion for a new Writ. The grounds are clear and of recent occurrence, and the seat ought not to be left vacant, in the interest of the electors. But none of these reasons are apparent on the present occasion. The Motion, indeed, can scarcely be proposed with the serious purpose of inducing the House to issue a new Writ for Northampton; but, like a similar Motion of the hon. Member on the 21st of February, seems rather designed to raise a discussion, indirectly and irregularly, upon the claim of the junior Member for that borough to take the Oath. For these reasons the Motion of the hon. Member is clearly not entitled to Privilege. With regard to the second Question of the hon. Member, I have to say that there are Standing Orders with regard to Petitions which were not in existence when the Middlesex Petition referred to by the hon. Member was heard. On that account there is no ground for dealing with a Petition of that kind stated as a matter of Privilege.
    MR. FIRTH: I beg to give Notice that, on the earliest available opportu-
    1822
    nity, I will move that the electors of Northampton be heard by themselves or by counsel at the Bar of the House in pursuance with the prayer of their Petition presented to-day.
    MR. LABOUCHERE: I beg to give Notice that on Tuesday next I shall move that the Petition from the electors of Northampton, which I have this day presented, be printed with the Votes of the House.
    MR. THOMAS COLLINS: With the kind indulgence of the House, I wish to make an explanation. Before I had taken the Oath, the hon. Member for Carlisle (Sir Wilfrid Lawson) wished to have certain questions put to me, of which he had informed me in the most kindly manner, and I then stated that if the House insisted I was prepared to make my declaration of belief in the words of the Nicene Creed, or that of St. Athanasius. Ever since that speech of the hon. Baronet was made, I have received a series of letters week by week, requesting to know if I do not hold Atheistical opinions. I had a Petition sent to me from a town not very long ago in favour of the admission of Mr. Bradlaugh to the House, with a request that I would present it, on the ground that I was a sympathizer with him. Now, I am not going to weary the House by reading the whole series of letters. But I will read one, and an extract from another. This is a letter which I received from Rochdale—
    "DEAR SIR,—Excuse me the liberty I am taking in writing to you on a delicate subject. It being constantly asserted by the admirers of Mr. Bradlaugh that you are an Atheist, I shall be very glad if you will give me your authority to contradict such a statement. As the report is generally believed, I shall be glad if you will allow me to publish this correspondence.—SAMUEL TAYLOR,"
    Well, the other day a meeting was held near Manchester, at a place called Harpurhey. It was a meeting of a Liberal Club, and, after passing a resolution condemnatory of the conduct of this House in refusing to allow Mr. Bradlaugh to take the Oath, a Resolution was passed declaring—
    "That the meeting condemns the hypocritical and cowardly action of the Conservative Party, who, while objecting to Mr. Bradlaugh on account of his conscientious opinions, allow one of their own political partizans of the same opinions to take his seat in the House without question."
    MR. SPEAKER: The House is always very indulgent to hon. Members in matters of personal explanation; but it appears to me the hon. Member does not refer to any matter concerning debates in this House.
    MR. THOMAS COLLINS: I refer to this matter, because of the hon. Member for Carlisle having brought it before the House, and having caused me to receive these annoying letters. I am not a thin-skinned man. But, at the same time, the noble Lord, a Member of the late Government, and the Member for the East Riding (Mr. Broadley) who introduced me, may have been caused some pain in being supposed to have introduced a man holding unworthy views. I hope that, after this explanation, I shall have no more of these Petitions,, and no more statements of this kind alleged against me.

  ORDERS OF TEE DAY.

    SUPPLY—COMMITTEE.
    Order for Committee read.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

    BRITISH TRADE (FOREIGN TARIFFS).

      RESOLUTION.
      MR. RITCHIE, in rising to move—
      "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the effects which the Tariffs in force in Foreign Countries have upon the principal branches of British Trade and Commerce, and into the possibility of removing, by Legislation or otherwise, any impediment to the fullest development of the manufacturing and commercial industry of the United Kingdom,"
      said, there was an essential difference between his Motion and others on the same subject which had been brought before the House. All those other Motions had asked the House to commit itself to definite expression of opinion on the subject of our commercial policy, whereas he only asked for a Committee of Inquiry. His Motion was animated by no spirit of hostility to Free Trade principles; he desired simply an investigation into the causes of the depression in trade which had succeeded the brilliant and progressive period which preceded, 1873. Since that period the country had not been progressing, but had, on the contrary, been going
      1824
      back, and all classes of the community had undergone severe trials and privations. Nothing was more remarkable than the quiet manner in which the working classes had borne those trials. Since 1880 there had unquestionably been signs of improvement. But, as far as the export trade of the country was concerned, he thought it was very questionable whether, on the whole, although it had been larger than for some years previously, it had been more profitable. The exports had increased in volume, but they had not increased in value; while, on the other hand, the imports had increased both in volume and value. But, granting that a considerable improvement had occurred in the last two years, he did not think the present was, therefore, a bad time for asking the House to appoint a Committee of Inquiry. On the contrary, he thought it it was probably better that the inquiry should be held at such a time as the present, rather than at a time of great depression. He feared, also, that the present improvement was not likely to be of long duration. There was nothing more notable during the last two years than the occasional spasmodic attempt—if he might use the expression—which had been made by trade to come round and improve. On every one of these occasions, however, owing to there having been little or no elasticity in the improvement, after making a short struggle, the improvement had died away. In asking the attention of the House to the condition of the trade of the country, he could not begin better than by recalling to the notice of the House the very grave and weighty words uttered by the Prime Minister when last year he introduced his Financial Statement. The right hon. Gentleman considered it necessary at that time to draw attention to the fact that the improvement which had gone on for so many years in the condition of the country had not only come to a standstill, but that unmistakable signs existed that we were going back instead of forward. In reply to a request made by the Leader of the Opposition, the right hon. Gentleman promised to lay on the Table the statement on which his assertions were based. Although he had applied for it more than once, it had not yet been presented to the House, and therefore he was unable to make use of a document which

      1825
      would doubtless supply a great deal of valuable information. But the statement itself was of a sufficiently grave character to warrant him in quoting it again to the House, and in asking the House to afford him the means of inquiring how that state of things had been brought about. The right hon. Gentleman said—
      "There is another point on which it is necessary to say a few words, because I think we have reached a period when I think it ought to be taken up. Changes are taking place which I believe neither the public nor Parliament are fully aware of. I wish Parliament to know that we are not making ground at present. Speaking for the last few years, without reference to Party differences, we are rather losing than making ground. The Revenue referred to is that derived from Customs, Excise, Stamps, and taxes. In the period 1842–58, the population increased ⅓ per cent; Revenue, 1¾ per cent; Expenditure, 2½ per cent. In the period 1859–73, population increased 1 per cent; Revenue, 3 per cent; Expenditure, 1⅓ per cent. In the period 1874–77, population increased 1 per cent; Revenue, 1½ per cent; Expenditure, 3¼ per cent. In the period 1878–9, population increased 1 per cent; Revenue went back 1½ per cent; and Expenditure increased 2⅙ percent."
      The right hon. Gentleman went on to say—
      "There is another result which will be more simple and intelligible than that which I have just given. The readiest and simplest of all methods of illustrating the growth of wealth in this country is to be found in a reference to the proceeds of 1d. on the Income Tax. In 1841–2 it yielded £772,000; in 1852–3, £810,000; in 1877–8, £1,990,000; in 1881–2, £1,943,000. It has gone back this year. No such period, so far as I am aware, can be founded since 1842. The 1d. in the Income Tax, which most strictly represents, not the general condition of the people, but of the wealthier classes of the country, has gone back for the first time since it was imposed."
      This statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was, of itself, sufficiently alarming; but if examined in greater detail it would assume a still more alarming aspect. The Income Tax, as a whole, gave a sufficiently unsatisfactory indication of the condition of the country; but what of that portion of the Income Tax which was obtained from the manufacturing and trading community under Schedule D? The income assessed to the tax under Schedule D amounted in 1875 to £267,000,000, in 1876 to £271,000,000, in 1879 to £257,000,000, and in 1880 to £249,000,000. As, however, the population had increased 5 percent since 1876, the decrease of 8 per cent between that
      1826
      year and 1880 did not fully describe the actual decrease. The income in 1880 under Schedule D, corrected according to the increase of population, should be £285,000,000. These figures showed a decrease of 13 per cent in four years under Schedule D. There were other indications of the condition of the country that were equally important. The Customs and Excise revenue amounted in 1876 to £47,000,000, and in 1881 to only £44,000,000. Thus the House would see that in 1881 the consumption of articles under the head of Customs and Excise decreased £3,000,000; but, correcting the figures according to the increase of population, there was a decrese in 1881, as compared with 1876, of no less than 11 per cent. The consumption of coffee in 1880 was lower than it had been in any year since 1876. The consumption of tea, also, was smaller now per head of the population than it had been for four years. The same remark would hold good with reference to tobacco; while, with reference to spirits, the quantity had not been so low since 1871. No doubt there was much reason for gratification in that circumstance; but, at the same time, the consumption of spirits had always been considered an indication of the amount of money which the working classes had to spend. The consumption of malt was also lower than it had ever been since 1866. That was, of course, not unsatisfactory in itself; but it was an indication that the working classes had been earning less money. Then there had been a considerable increase in the pauper population, both indoor and outdoor. Scotland remained about the same in this respect; but England and Ireland had greatly increased. In England alone the increase of pauperism was considerable, even allowing for the increase of population, showing, as it did, an increase between 1876 and 1880 of 42 per cent in indoor, and 20 per cent in outdoor, able-bodied adult paupers. Ireland showed an in crease of 30 per cent in the indoor paupers, and 70 per cent in the outdoor. There had been, on the whole, a steady and large increase of pauperism in the United Kingdom until 1881, and that notwithstanding the fact that there had been a much more rigorous application of the Poor Law. Emigration had also increased from 109,000 in 1876 to

      1827
      227,000 in 1880. Railway traffic afforded another indication of the commercial condition of the country. Since 1877 there had been a falling-off in the traffic receipts from £3,550 per mile to £3,453 per mile; but those figures did not show the full extent of the falling off in the goods traffic, as there had been an increase in passenger receipts; and, if that were deducted from the total traffic receipts, the result would show a great decrease in the goods traffic. It would thus be seen, from everything generally acknowledged to be an indication of prosperity, that this country had not been progressing. The fact was that the country was going back, and, rightly or wrongly, that retrogression had been attributed by large numbers of the people to the commercial policy of the country, and a want of confidence had been engendered, which ought to be removed by a proper inquiry. This want of confidence had not been diminished by the unfortunate course adopted by France in reference to the negotiations for a Commercial Treaty. The hopes this country had indulged in as to the effect on other countries of our example had been falsified. So far from other countries following our example, they saw a country which had for upwards of 20 years been enjoying the benefits of Free Trade now putting an end to that régime, and adopting in exchange a Protectionist policy. No wonder, then, that a want of confidence was engendered in our commercial policy. Mr. Bright, in 1877, said that in France Protection was becoming weaker. So far from that being so, the action of France had shown, not that Protection was becoming weaker, but that it was becoming stronger. The negotiations with France had failed; but they might be sure that they had not failed for want of unremitting exertions on the part of Her Majesty's Government. This country had been represented on the Commission by a Gentleman who had inspired the highest confidence in the commercial classes of this country—the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs; and, notwithstanding all his efforts, he had failed to conclude a Treaty equally good with that which had expired. This country was, therefore, left free to adopt whatever policy might be most conducive to its own interests; and, for his part, he thought
      1828
      this a very good compensation for the failure of the Treaty. It was, unfortunately, the case that this country, whenever it had attempted to obtain any relaxation of Foreign Tariffs, was placed at great disadvantage through having nothing to give in exchange. Franco was much the same as she was in 1846, when Mr. Disraeli said—
      "The republican party.….is opposed to what you call free trade as much as the commercial community. You have in France these two great interests, the politico-philosophical and the commercial, all working together against what they call the fatal principle of competition. There was but one way of ever gaining any relaxation of the mercantile system of France, and that was by diplomacy. The French Cabinet will do nothing without a treaty."—[3 Hansard, lxxxiii. 1331.]
      In 1860 the French Emperor negotiated the Treaty in spite of the opposition of the French people, and in return for concessions on our part. The Republicans were now in power. We had nothing more to give them, and nothing could be done. The failure to conclude a new Treaty with France had, undoubtedly, increased the feeling of want of confidence existing in this country as to its commercial policy. He had no doubt he would be charged with advocating a policy of Protection. The charge was utterly groundless. He did not advocate Protection. He believed it to be impossible; and, further, it was inconsistent with the position he took up. Not one of the large manufacturing industries of the country would be benefited by it. Take cotton, for instance. We exported four-fifths of our total manufactures, only retaining one-fifth for home consumption. No amount of protective duties in this country would raise the selling price of the four-fifths exported; and, if not the four-fifths, how could they do so in the case of the one-fifth retained? If we could not compete with foreign manufacturers in our own markets, how could we compete with them in their markets; and, if not, of what benefit to us would the relaxation of their Tariffs be? He repeated that he did not advocate Protection, nor did he desire it; neither did the manufacturing nor the working classes desire it. He felt certain that we could successfully compete with all the world if our manufacturers could secure a fair field and no favour. He hoped the inquiry he asked for would be granted, though he had,

      1829
      reason to fear otherwise. He confessed that he could not conceive, even from a Free Trade point of view, why an inquiry should be refused. The Government would probably take the same course in answer to his remarks as had been adopted on more than one previous occasion. A comparison would be drawn between the state of the country in 1840 and in the present year; and it would be shown, from the imports and exports, the consumption of articles of luxury, and the diminution of pauperism, that the country was now in a highly prosperous and satisfactory condition. It would, doubtless, be contended that the proper doctrine was to take care of the imports, and let the exports take care of themselves. But in that case the Government would be met by the difficulty of explaining the strenuous efforts made by them to conclude a Commercial Treaty with France, which was in direct opposition to such a doctrine. We always tried most earnestly to represent that all we did was done purely from philanthropic motives, and that we desired, above everything, to benefit the countries with which we endeavoured to make Treaties; but, somehow, those professions were unsuccessful, and only served to increase the suspicions of foreign nations. If the policy of the Government was that exports should be left to take care of themselves, why these efforts to make Treaties? If such be their policy, the only consistent course for them to adopt was that recommended under similar circumstances by an eminent authority—Mr. Newmarch—whose death he was very sorry to see announced in that day's papers. In 1877 that gentlemen wrote to The Economist as follows:—
      "Let the party of excellent and honourable men, whom we have foolishly sent to Paris, take a speedy farewell of their polite antagonists, and let Lord Derby, than whom no one has a better right to perform the duty, intimate, once for all, to the French and all other Governments, that, like the age of ruins, the age of Commercial Treaties is past."
      That was the only legitimate course to pursue if the doctrine that we ought not to trouble ourselves about exports was correct. A Treaty was a bargain. It was nothing more nor less than Reciprocity, and was a flagrant violation of the principle that exports should be left to take care of themselves. He had
      1830
      said that there would probably be drawn a comparison between the year 1840 and the present year in order to show the triumph of Free Trade principles. No one could deny the immense progress that had been made since the former year; but he did deny that it was altogether, or, indeed, mainly attributable to our commercial policy. It had been for more owing to the industry and energy of the people, to the enterprize of our merchants, and to the development of our railway system. The fact was that for a long period of years this country was the emporium and the manufacturing centre of the whole world, and foreign countries had to come to us for goods which we alone could supply. Then, again, a network of railways was spread all over England before the foreign railway systems were in any way developed. In one of the speeches recently delivered at Leeds by the Prime Minister, the right hon. Gentleman, dealing with this point, after giving the volume of trade done between this and foreign countries, went on to ask why, if our prosperity was so largely owing to railways, the trade of the world had not been transferred to France, Germany, and the United States, which had as many railways and telegraphs as ourselves? But at the time of our great commercial advance, those countries were deficient in respect of railways, as a glance at the figures would show. In 1860 there were 988 miles of railway in Russia, and 14,000 in 1880; in Germany, 6,000, as against 26,000 20 years later; in France, 5,800, as against 14,000; and in the United States, 30,000, as against 86,000; and with the development of railways abroad so their demands for our manufactures had fallen off. But, after all, however interesting might be the comparison between 1840 and 1880, that was not really the point; the point was not whether the country was richer now than in 1840, but whether it was poorer than it was eight years ago. A very serious question to be borne in mind, in considering the subject of imports and exports, was that we were every year becoming more and more dependent on other countries for our supplies of food and raw material. Our wants were constantly increasing, and, in order to satisfy them, we could only give our manufactures in return. Our exports, then, ought to increase in

      1831
      a direct ratio with our imports, if we were to pay for the latter out of our national income. In 1872 the value of the animal and cereal food imported into the country was £75,000,000; and in 1879, £102,000,000, or an increase of 33 per cent; while our exports, which were our only legitimate means of paying for that supply, had diminished 20 percent. In 1872 we grew 54,000,000 cwt. of wheat, and imported 47,000,000 cwt.; in 1879 we grew 28,000,000 cwt., and imported 70,000,000. And with respect to meat, in 1872 we grew 26,000,000 cwt. and imported 4,000,000; and in 1879 we grew 24,000,000 cwt. and imported 8,000,000. The House would thus see how, year by year, we were becoming more and more dependent on foreign supplies for our very existence. To enable us to pay for these supplies our exports should not only not fall off, but increase. Were they doing so? He proposed to compare the exports of the years 1872 and 1880; but the figures for 1871 and 1879 gave a precisely similar result. In 1872 the value of our exports was £256,000,000; in 1680 it was £223,000,000; or in the former year £8 Is. per head of the population, and in the latter only £6 9s. 5d. Comparing the year 1872 with 1879, the decrease was still greater, and amounted to 30 per cent. If he separated the exports to foreign countries from the exports to British Possessions, the diminution in the exports to foreign countries was very remarkable. The value of our exports to foreign countries in 1872 amounted to £195,000,000, or £6 2s. 11 d. per head; in 1880, to £147,000,000, or £4 5s. 9d. per head, a decline of no less than 30 per cent, or almost one-third, in our foreign trade. But if we looked to the British Possessions, the story was entirely different. In 1872 our exports to our Colonies amounted to £60,000,000, and, instead of decreasing 30 per cent like our foreign trade, they increased in 1880 to £75,000,000, or 25 per cent. That increase would have been still greater if it had not been for a decrease of about 20 per cent in our exports to Canada, and 25 per cent in our exports to Victoria, which was an evidence of the effect of their Tariffs. But to India, which not many years ago some Members of Her Majesty's Government did not lay great store upon as a market for our trade, our exports had increased from
      1832
      £18,000,000 in 1872 to £30,000,000 in 1880, or no less than 70 per cent. Nothing could show more forcibly the immense value to us, as outlets for our manufactures, of our Colonies, and the great importance of doing all in our power to draw them closer to us. Taking now the principal articles of our manufacture, we find that our cotton exports in 1880 were of almost exactly the same value as in 1872; but, unfortunately, to obtain the same amount of money, we had to give our friends abroad 25 per cent more in quantity. If we analyzed our cotton exports a little closer, and took the various countries separately, it would be found they had decreased between 1872 and 1880 as follows:—To Germany, from £6,000,000 to £3,000,000; to Holland, from £5,500,000 to £2,500,000; to France, from £3,000,000 to £1,750,000; to Egypt, from £4,000,000 to £2,000,000. Taking these countries together, the decrease in the value of cotton goods exported was 50 per cent; while the increase to India alone—namely, from £26,000,000 to £42,000,000—amounted to 65 per cent. With respect to woollen goods, the decrease of our exports between 1872 and 1880 was as follows:—Germany, from £12,000,000 to £3,000,000; Holland, from £3,400,000 to £1,600,000; the United States, from £7,000,000 to £2,500,000—a decrease in the case of these three countries from £22,000,000 to £7,000,000, or one-third. How had the exports of foreign countries gone on in the time? It must be remembered that they were very considerably handicapped by the Protectionist Tariffs; but, in addition, they laboured under other disadvantages. France had been invaded and overrun by foreign Armies, and saddled with an enormous Indemnity unparalleled in modern times. Her National Debt had increased from £16,000,000 to £120,000,000; and, in consequence of internal disturbance, the whole country had been completely disorganized. In such a state of things one might expect a serious decline in her export trade. But the exports of France, which in 1872 were £150,000,000, in 1880 were £138,000,000, a falling-off of 8 per cent only as compared with 20 per cent on our part; and that falling-off had been mainly in grain, flour, and raw sugar. The failling-off in the latter being owing

      1833
      to the large bounties given upon raw sugar by Austria, the bounty in France being given only on the manufactured article. From Germany, during the period he had named, there had been a continuous annual increase. The exports had increased from £116,000,000 to £152,000,000—that was according to the Statistical Abstract; but in 1872 the prices of many articles were not included in the Abstract. If they had been, the figures would have stood £136,000,000 to £152,000,000. The exports from Russia had increased 80 per cent; from Belgium, 10 per cent; and from the United States, 45 per cent. It thus appeared that while the exports of Germany had increased by £16,000,000 sterling, or 2½ per cent, those of Austria by £11,000,000, or 17£ per cent, those of Russia by £47,000,000, or 80 per cent; those of Holland by £13,000,000, or 25 per cent; those of Belgium by£6,000,000, or 10 per cent: and those of the United States by £71,000,000, or 45 per cent while the exports of France had decreased by £12,000,000, or 8 per cent—the decrease in the exports of this country amounted to £33,000,000 sterling, or 20 per cent. Was not this a sufficiently serious state of things to justify him in asking the House of Commons to inquire why we fared so much worse than other countries? On the subject of our foreign trade, there had lately been a considerable distribution of literature by Her Majesty's Government, and especially by the Board of Trade; and it seemed to be a recognized duty of the permanent officials of that Board to write and circulate disquisitions on Free Trade. He had been informed that a gentleman representing the Board of Trade had recently addressed a meeting of Trade Unionists on this question. ["No, no!"] He had been told so by one who said that he was present.
      MR. CHAMBERLAIN: Will the hon. Member give me the name of the gentleman to whom he refers?
      MR. RITCHIE: Mr. Giffen.
      MR. CHAMBERLAIN: It is not true.
      MR. RITCHIEsaid, he, of course, accepted the contradiction, and withdrew his statement. But, at all events, the Board of Trade dealt largely in the distribution of Free Trade literature, and considered it its duty to circulate its Papers at the head-quarters of the
      1834
      trades' unions throughout the country. [Mr. BROADHURST: No.] He wished especially to direct the attention of the House to a Paper recently laid on the Table of the House and signed by Mr. Giffen, entitled—
      "Report to the Secretary of the Board of Trade on recent changes in the amount of the foreign trade of the United Kingdom and the prices of imports and exports."
      If this document gave an accurate description of the state of things, then the complaints of our manufacturers were absolutely groundless, because in that Paper Mr. Giffen contends that if the prices of our manufactured articles had been largely lower of late years, the manufacturers had been recouped by the lower prices they paid for the raw materials. Before dealing with that contention he wished to say a few words on another contention of Mr. Giffen's in the same Paper. Mr. Giffen said—
      "Quantities are the main question in such a matter, for it is the things produced which make wealth, whatever may he the money standard by which the wealth is nominally measured."
      That he entirely denied. It was certain that if the values of goods fell without a corresponding fall in the price of the raw materials, all classes interested, workmen and manufacturers, must suffer. The subject was of vast importance to the working classes, because, if the value of goods fell, wages must fall. Increase in quantity and decrease in value meant bad trade and low wages, and indicated, not prosperity, but the reverse. That, however, was always on the supposition that the decrease in value was not brought about by a decrease in the cost of the raw material. There were two kinds of export trade—one the result of there being no demand at home, which was a bad trade, and another the result of a demand abroad, which was a good trade. The former was the description of export trade that had been carried on in this country for some years past. In the latter case, values were maintained, and in the former values fell often below cost price with the consequent loss to all interested. Mr. Giffen denied that such loss has been incurred in our export trade, and endeavoured to show that manufacturers had done almost, if not quite, as well in 1879 as in 1873. A more incorrect and misleading statement had rarely been made by one in Mr. Giffen's position, as he believed he could

      1835
      show conclusively. The paragraph from Mr. Giffen's Paper to which he desired to direct the attention of the House was as follows:—
      "In my two former Reports I touched upon, but did not discuss at any length, the question of the relative profitableness of our foreign trade at different times, allowing the assumption to pass that the years in which we exported at high prices would be more remunerative than the years at which we export at nominally low prices. It was hinted that this might not be the case, the actual returns in the years of export at high prices being possibly no better than the actual returns in the years of export at nominally low prices, since the official figures of imports and exports are obviously not the same as the prices realized by importers and exporters; but, as bearing on the question of relative profitableness, it may be interesting likewise to point out that, to a largo extent, the apparent reduction of our export trade between 1873 and 1877 and 1878 must be apparent only, and is due to a change in which British labour and capital are not directly concerned. For instance, the real British produce exported in our cotton manufactures is not the whole nominal amount, but only that amount less the value of the raw material imported. It may possibly happen, then, that if the value of the raw material previously imported and used in the manufactures we export could be deducted from the exports, the real exports thus shown would exhibit a steady advance. The decline in our exports would in that case have been exclusively due to the diminished value of the raw material which we had paid for. That this is the real explanation of a large part of the apparent diminution of the exports between a year like 1873 and years like the last four is also obvious. Altogether, in 1873 we imported 13,639,000 cwts. of raw cotton, at a total cost of £54,704,000, while in 1879 we imported very nearly the same quantity, viz. 13,119,000 cwts. at a total cost of £36,180,000, the exact cost in 1879 for exactly the same quantity as in 1873 being about £37,500,000. There is consequently a difference of £17,200,000 between the value of the same quantity of raw cotton available in 1879 and 1873; and allowing that four-fifths of the raw cotton is manufactured for export, four-fifths of this sum of £17,200,000, or £13,760,000, must represent in the exports of cotton manufactures a mere difference in the value of the raw material contained in them, the raw material thus contained being, of course, neither the produce nor manufacture of the United Kingdom. Actually more raw cotton was used and exported in a manufactured form in 1879 and 1880 than in 1873, the exports of piece goods, for instance, increasing from 3,483,000,000 to 4,495,000,000 yards, or about 30 per cent; but even if only the same quantity had been used, the different value of raw material used would have made a difference of about £14,000,000 in the value of the exports. Of course, there are some exports of British produce and manufactures, such as coal and iron, to which this explanation would not apply; but it applies, apparently, to about two-thirds of our whole exports of British and Irish produce."
      1836
      It would thus be seen that Mr. Giffen took cotton as the illustration from which he drew the inference that manufacturers had been recouped for the lower price of the manufactured article, by the reduction in the price of the raw material; but the fallacy of the inference would be shown on examination. In. 1879 the value of the cotton goods exported was £64,000,000, and in 1873 £77,400,000, showing a deficiency of value received by manufacturers in the former year, as compared with 1873, of £13,400,000; but against this Mr. Giffen stated that the cost of raw cotton imported was £13,760,000 less in 1879. than in 1873, thus, if his theory was correct, the manufacturers actually made £360,000 more in 1879 than in 1873; but taking 1880 the result would be still more startling. In 1880 the value of the cotton manufactures exported was £75,500,000, as against £77,400,000 in 1873, a deficiency of value received by them in the former year of £1,900,000 as compared with 1873; but if against this was put the lower cost of the raw material received in 1880, estimated by Mr. Giffen at £14,000,000, the result to the cotton manufactures in 1880 would be a larger profit by £12,000,000 than in the year 1873, which was one of the best years ever known. A further proof of the fallacy of Mr. Giffen's inference that cotton manufacturers have been recouped for the low price of their manufactures by the low price of the raw material was given in the very Paper itself, for it would be found in the tables annexed that the cotton yarn exported in 1880 was 25 per cent lower in price, and the cotton cloth 20 per cent lower in price than in 1873, while the raw material was 25 per cent lower; but as on every pound of cotton valued at 7d. there has to be expended 5d. in labour and charges before it was made into cloth, a fall of 20 per cent in the cloth. meant a fall of 35 per cent in raw cotton, and as the fall was only 25 per cent, it would be seen that the manufacturer was worse off by 10 per cent in 1880 than in 1873, instead of being much better off. If Mr. Giffen was wrong in his inferences with reference to cotton, how much more wrong was he with reference to all the other principal articles of our manufacture? Mr. Giffen says that with reference to two-thirds of our manufactures his statement would

      1837
      hold good. He had, he thought, shown conclusively that Mr. Giffen was entirely wrong as to cotton. He would now take the other principal articles of export. To coal, iron, fish, cement, and alkali, which, together, amounted to £46,000,000, being entirely of British origin, it could not be applied, the entire reduction in value being a loss to this country. In jute goods, amounting to £4,000,000, he found the reduction in the price of the manufactured material had been 25 per cent, while the raw material had been positively 12½ per cent higher. In flax goods, which amounted to £6,000,000, the reduction in the price of the manufactured article had been from 7 per cent to 12½ per cent, while the reduction in the price of the raw material had been 8 per cent. In wool, the reduction in the price of the manufactured article had been 20 per cent, while the reduction in the price of the raw material had been 7 per cent, the woollen exports amounting to £19,000,000. In refined sugar, the reduction in the manufactured article had been 20 per cent, and in the raw material 12 per cent. In oil, the reduction in the manufactured article had been 15 per cent, and in the raw material 10 per cent. In paper, the reduction in the manufactured article had been 25 per cent, and in the raw material 12½ per cent. In leather goods, the reduction in the manufactured article had been 12½ per cent, and in the raw material the same. It must not, of course, be forgotten that the reduction in the manufactured article was a reduction on the goods after all the expense of manufacture. Of these articles the total amount of the exports was £82,000,000, and, adding the amount of the cotton exports, the entire sum came to £152,000,000, out of a total sum of £162,000,000 dealt with in Mr. Giffen's Paper. It would thus be seen that the statement made by Mr. Giffen that manufacturers have been recouped for the low prices of their goods by the low price of the raw material was entirely fallacious and misleading. He had endeavoured to discover where the fallacy in Mr. Giffen's calculations lay; and he had found that that gentleman, not knowing the quantity of cotton which had been worked up into the manufactures exported, had taken the weight of cotton imported in the previous year as
      1838
      the weight of the manufactured goods exported. Every commercial man, however, would know that the weight of the raw material was no indication of the weight of the manufactured goods exported. To arrive at a sound conclusion on the point they must know what the stocks were at the commencement of the year, and what they amounted to at the end of the year. The best proof of the incorrectness of Mr. Giffen's calculation in this respect was the fact that we only imported 6 per cent more in weight of the raw material in 1880 than we did in 1873, while we exported 30 per cent more in weight of the manufactured article. He now proposed to consider the question of the adverse balance of imports over exports, which had been so much dwelt upon recently. He was not one of those who held that our imports exceeding our exports was to be regretted. What I was so unsatisfactory was that our imports increased, while our exports diminished. I Our imports must exceed our exports. There could be no profitable trade without it. So long as excess imports represented legitimate earnings it was well. If we went beyond that, we should be spending capital, which was bad. Was that the ease with us. In the years 1866–70 the adverse balance was £290,000,000, or, per annum, £58,000,000; in 1871–5, £312,000,000, or, per annum, £62,000,000; in 1876–80, £622,000,000, or, per annum, £125,000,000. In our most profitable years the adverse balance was the smallest—namely, £60,000,000—while in our years of greatest adversity the adverse balance advanced to £125,000,000, which was more than double. The change had been very sudden, and had been coincident with depression. Had the additional imports been paid for by legitimate means, or were we spending our capital? That question certainly called for investigation and explanation. The adverse balance was attempted to be accounted for by three different items—first, cost of carriage; secondly, profits; thirdly, interest on foreign investments. In the discussion last year on this subject, the hon. Member for Bolton (Mr. J. K. Cross), in order to show the necessity of our imports largely exceeding our exports, took three examples—namely, cotton, iron, and wool, of which he assumed shipments had been made of the value of £1,000 each.

      1839
      The hon. Member contended that, to recoup himself for this £3,000 exports, he must import goods for £6,920, so that in the tables of exports and imports the £3,000 exports must be represented by £6,920 of imports. How was that conclusion arrived at? Why, by calculating an outward freight of £3,050. But, as a matter of fact, the exporter did not receive that back. It was paid to the agent abroad. He had only his original £3,000 to get home. But did not the agent for the ship owner remit the freight? No; it was spent in coal, wages, charges, loading, &c, only the homeward freight and charges must be allowed for. For that M. Mongredien allowed 11 per cent; but, as one-third was in foreign bottoms, only two-thirds of the £11 could be reckoned, which was £7 per cent. Mr. New march, to whose death he had already alluded, calculated 5 percent, Mr. Bourne calculated the same, while Mr. M'Kay calculated 8½ per cent. It would be fair to take the medium, say 7 per cent. The £3,000 sent out would, therefore, be represented by an import of £3,210, and not £6,920, as stated by the hon. Member. Assuming, therefore, that the exports must exceed the imports by 7 per cent for homeward freight and charges, this would reduce the adverse annual balance by £27,000,000. Then there was the second of the two heads—profit. In a little book called Popular Fallacies regarding Trade and Foreign Duties, by E. J. Pearce, issued by the Cobden Club, he found that Mr. Pearce had corrected the figures of the hon. Member for Bolton. He had pointed out the error about outward freight; but he found fault because the hon. Member for Bolton had left out "profit." Why was that left out? For a very good reason. Because, as a rule, there had been none. It was lucky if the goods realized the invoice price. Mr. Pearce was determined not to err in this way. He supposed a case of a hardware cargo sent to New Orleans. The voyage would occupy three months, and he calculated there would be a profit of 20 per cent out, and 20 per cent home, equal to 160 per cent per annum. He congratulated Mr. Pearce on that result; he would like to be a partner with him in such an undertaking. The adverse balance would soon be accounted for in this manner.
      1840
      He need hardly say, however, that such a calculation was an absurdity. There were three different methods of shipping goods—firstly, where the merchant bought and consigned; secondly, whore the manufacturer consigned; and, thirdly, where the shipment was on account of a foreign buyer. In the third case there was, of course, no profit at all to be reckoned. The profit, if any, was retained in the foreign country. In the second case, when the manufacturer consigned it was a sure sign that no profit could be made. In such a case he was only too glad to receive the invoice price. In how many instances did this happen, and was there not more generally a loss? Was it not certain that in times of depression there was a loss? In the first case, that of the merchant buying and consigning, as for the last few years prices had been gradually but steadily falling, the turn was always against the buyer, so that even in the case of the merchant consigning there had of late years been more commonly a loss than a profit. Looking, therefore, at all the various modes of shipping goods, he thought it was much safer to accept the conclusion of the hon. Member for Bolton, founded on experience, and calculate on no profit having been made in recent years on the export trade, rather than accept the figures given by Mr. Pearce. There remained the question of interest on our foreign investments. It was assumed that the amount we had to receive on this account was from £30,000,000 to £35,000,000 per annum. The receipts from India amounted to about £10,000,000. That made a total of £40,000,000 to £45,000,000. If to that were to be added £27,000,000, the profit of our carrying trade, we arrive at a total of £72,000,000. If we deducted this sum, therefore, from the gross adverse balance of £125,000,000 per annum, it would still leave an adverse balance of £53,000,000 per annum. Mr. Giffen had recently read a very interesting Paper before the Statistical Society on the subject of our imports and exports; and, dealing with the subject of our loans abroad, he expressed views which were contrary in many respects to those of M. Mongredien and others who agreed with him. M. Mongredien expressed an opinion that, of late years, foreign countries had not increased their indebtedness to us; but, in Mr. Giffen's

      1841
      Paper, lie contended that foreign countries had increased their indebtedness to us to the extent of £209,000,000 during the last few years. If Mr. Giffen was right, we ought not to calculate on having to receive the £45,000,000 we had assumed to receive during the last five years as interest. This £45,000,000, instead of being received in the shape of imports, was left abroad and lent out again; and, if this were so, this sum must not be calculated in reduction of our adverse balance, so that we were thus left with only £27,000,000 for freight to reduce the adverse balance of £125,000,000. Mr. Giffen, however, in the Paper referred to, contended that, instead, of amounting to £27,000,000, the freight and charges to be remitted home amounted to £80,000,000 per annum. Even so, the adverse balance would be still £45,000,000. Mr. Giffen, however, calculated both inward and outward freight. He had already shown that we had no right to calculate outward freight, so that, even assuming Mr. Giffen's calculation of £80,000,000 outward and homeward freight and charges to be correct, a very large deduction had to be made from this on account of the outward freight; but could it be doubted that Mr. Giffen's estimate was greatly in excess of the actual amount, which no one had previously estimated at more than £42,000,0000? According to his calculations, the annual excess of imports unaccounted for was £53,000,000, if we calculated that the interest on foreign loans had been remitted in goods, or £ 100,000,000 if the interest had been retained abroad, and re-lent, as Mr. Giffen said had been the case. Mr. Giffen admitted that the adverse balance amounted to £45,000,000. If the lower figures were correct, the aspect of the case was very grave; if the higher, it was most alarming. How was that excess paid for? It was certainly not paid for by bullion; the only other way would be by parting with our securities. Now, in a work recently published by Mr. Bourne, an eminent statistician, and sub-head of the Statistical Department of the Customs, he asserted that there was good reason to fear that payment for our excess imports was being made in this way; and he had the authority of the manager of one of the largest banks in London for the statement that the amount
      1842
      of foreign securities deposited with, bankers had largely diminished. The net practical result of what he had been endeavouring to show was, firstly, that all the usual indications showed the state of the country to be very grave, and that, instead of continuing to advance, we were receding; secondly, that the falling-off in exports was most serious, looking to the fact that we were yearly becoming more dependent on foreign countries for the necessaries of life; thirdly, that reduction in value had not been compensated for by reduction in the price of raw material, but that, on the contrary, we were compelled to give, year by year, more of our labour for less money; and, fourthly, that the yearly increasing adverse balance of imports was not to be accounted for by our carrying charges or by our foreign income, but was, it was greatly to be feared, coming out of the accumulations of the country. Whatever objections might be taken to his statements, it could not be denied that, at least, he had made out a case for inquiry. It might be contended that he had not proved this state of things to be the direct consequence of Foreign Tariffs. It was difficult to do this; but, surely, primâfacie, it could hardly be disputed—at least, it could hardly be denied—that a reduction in Foreign Tariffs would stimulate our export trade. This was shown by our trade with France. In 1360 our exports to that country were only £5,000,000; in 1880 they were £16,000,000. It was essential to our very existence that our foreign export trade should be increased. The question was, how was this to be done? Would it have the desired effect if we threatened retaliation in the event of a continuance of hostile Tariffs? All this was a legitimate subject for inquiry. There was nothing against the principles of Free Trade in Retaliation. Indeed, the President of the Board of Trade himself had advocated that policy in regard to French wines in the speech which he made in that House last August. Again, was it not important to inquire whether our fiscal legislation was as sound as it might be, and whether it would not. be possible to relieve the taxpayers of this country of some share of the taxes they paid by increasing the duties on some of the articles we imported? Then there was the ques-

      1843
      tion of drawing closer together the bonds which united us with our Colonies. If that were feasible, he was sure it would meet with the assent and support of all classes in the country, and of hon. Members on both sides of the House. He did not say the subject was free from difficulties; but, at any rate, it was worthy of investigation. He was not absolutely wedded to the terms of his Resolution, but would assent to any modification of them, as long as they enabled the investigation to be full and thorough. The matter was one of vital importance, which ought to be cleared up by full inquiry. In the remarks he had made he had confined himself solely to the commercial and manufacturing part of the subject. If, however, he had not referred to agriculture, it was not because he did not feel the enormous importance of the subject and the sufferings which had been borne by all those interested in this, the greatest of our industries. He had sat upon the Agricultural Commission now for many months, and it had been sufficiently demonstrated to him that much suffering had been entailed upon all classes of the agricultural community, except, perhaps, the labourers. He had said nothing on this subject, because he felt that while the Commission was sitting specially to investigate this very matter, and while its Report was even now in course of preparation, it would have been unbecoming for him, as a Member of that Commission, to enlarge on this most important subject. In conclusion, he appealed to the House, in the interests of all classes of the community, that they would grant him what he asked—namely, simply and solely a Committee of Inquiry into the whole subject of the state of the country and the adverse times we had encountered for some years, with a view of finding out the means of restoring that prosperity to the country which it was essential that it should enjoy. The hon. Member concluded by moving the Resolution of which he had given Notice.
      Amendment proposed,
      "To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the effects which the Tariffs in force in Foreign Countries have upon the principal branches of British Trade and Commerce, and into the possibility of removing, by Legis-
      1844
      lation or otherwise, any impediment to the fuller development of the manufacturing and commercial industry of the United Kingdom,"—(Mr. Ritchie,)
      —instead thereof.
      Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
      MR. CARTWRIGHTsaid, that, although according to the Forms of the House he was unable to move the Amendment of which he had given Notice, and which ran in the following terms:—
      "That, in the opinion of this House, the commercial relations between the United Kingdom and Foreign Countries are not in a state to demand an inquiry by a Select Committee,"
      still, he would briefly explain why he thought the opinions enunciated by the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ritchie) were such as should not recommend themselves to the House, but were unsound and mischievous. He maintained that not one of the hon. Member's propositions had been borne out; and he believed, in fact, that the real and main purpose of the Motion was in the direction of Protection in the shape of a reversal of the commercial policy that had been pursued by this country for many years. That aim and purpose was clearly expressed in the friendly Amendment, as he had every reason to believe, which had been put down by the hon. and learned Member for West Staffordshire (Mr. Staveley Hill), That Amendment distinctly advocated imposition of retaliatory duties against foreign nations, with the view of affording relief to the British taxpayers from burdens, and of artificially stimulating a development of trade with our Colonies. The latter allegation rested on a fallacy. It assumed that a certain extension of our trade must follow on the adoption of such a line of commercial policy by this country, from the alleged greater readiness of the Colonies to take British goods. That was a statement which had been very much put before the country by people who were seeking for Protection under the disguise of calling themselves Fair Traders. There was a gross delusion in the statement. The hon. Member for the Tower Ham lets had compared our trade to the Colonies in two distinct years. No comparison of any real value could rest on

      1845
      the data of two distinct years. The only data of real value for any comparison between the relative elasticity of our trade to foreign countries and to the Colonies could be furnished by the Returns not of single years, but of a series of years. Now, the examination of the amount of our Colonial trade during a period of 25 years would prove that its proportions to the total of our trade has, practically, remained stationary. In 1856 our trade with the Colonies was about 25 per cent, and in 1880 it remained 24 per cent, of our total trade. There were fluctuations, no doubt; but he denied that the fluctuations were greater than those which marked our trade with foreign countries, and there was no indication of a greater elasticity in our Colonial trade. The reference to the undeniable extension of our trade with India was beside the purpose, for our Indian trade could not serve as a fair gauge for our Colonial trade. The Indian Tariff was made by ourselves according to our commercial views. But the Colonies were self-governing, and made their own Tariffs according to their views. Now, it was an incontrovertible fact that, with the solitary exception of New South Wales, in every British self-governing Colony the present Tariff was higher than the Tariff as it stood in 1859—the year before the conclusion of the Anglo-French Commercial Treaty—and, therefore, the point of time when commenced the commercial relations against which the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets inveighed. But, while he asked us to believe that English trade was being crushed out by the adverse and hostile action of a reactionary and protective system adopted of late years by foreign countries, how did the matter really stand? Why, whereas every English-speaking self-governing Colony, with one exception, at present imposed higher duties on British goods than in 1859, notwithstanding the unfortunate return towards a protective system in many Foreign States, there was only one which at present still had a Tariff with duties notably lower than they were in 1859—and that one State was the great English-speaking Republic in America. He wanted to know, then, how a law could be made out from these facts in favour of a discriminating Tariff against foreign countries, with their higher
      1846
      Tariff for the benefit of the Colonies with their pronounced Protectionist systems? The whole question of whether Protective Tariffs had done much injury to, and were really crushing out, British industry and manufactures might be tested by our commercial relations with the United States. The United States had been exactly following out the policy which certain hon. Gentlemen opposite wished to see prevail in this country; and what had been its effect there? A comparison between the industries of the United States and of Great Britain afforded a crucial test for the two systems. We, under Free Trade economy, produced and exported something like £190,000,000 worth of manufactured articles; the United States exported something less than £18,000,000, under the fostering care of Protection. In 1880, notwithstanding the high Tariff of the United States, we exported upwards of £24,000,000 of manufactured articles to the United States; whereas the United States, despite Protective stimulants, did not import £3,000,000 of manufactures into Great Britain. The case was still more strikingly illustrated by reference to the relative positions of British and American shipping. There was no country in the world so favourably situated for becoming a first class shipping country as America; and yet, notwithstanding Protection, upwards of 50 per cent of the American trade was carried in British bottoms, and only 16 per cent carried in American vessels. That was most conclusive as to the relative action of Protection and Free Trade. The hon. Member for the Tower Ham lets, throughout the whole of his speech, had taken not normal, but abnormal years as tests, without making any allowance for that fact. For instance, he did not hear the hon. Member say a single word as to the inflated development of British trade in the years 1871 and 1872, to which he kept referring. In bringing an indictment against the commercial policy of the country, it was not quite fair to base sweeping arguments upon abnormal years, and on exceptional circumstances. The hon. Member did not grapple with the subject of British shipping at all, which had grown immensely; and he omitted to take any account of the interest of British trade arising from monies invested abroad. Upon the question of duties it was really impossible to

      1847
      draw a distinction between raw material and manufactured material; for what was called raw material one day was called manufactured material another day. Some articles which constituted the material for important branches of our industries were ranked as manufactured articles in Foreign Tariffs. Towards the end of his speech the hon. Member touched on the subject of agricultural depression; but said he would not go into the subject because he was a Member of the Royal Commission on Agriculture, and, therefore, he thought it right not to advance any opinion; but, not being himself a Member of the Commission, he would say a word upon the subject. In his opinion, the agricultural depression had been mainly instrumental in producing the commercial depression of the country; for everyone connected with agriculture, whether landlord or tenant, had heavily suffered, and those losses had necessarily involved stringent retrenchment. But this stringent retrenchment on the part of the agricultural classes had also necessarily affected the home market, which, in a large degree, dealt with those classes. He was not about to discuss the whole question of all the causes which had led to our agricultural depression. He only wished to dwell on one point closely connected with the commercial fallacies of those who advocated Protection. It was not the case that the depression of farmers in England was wholly due to foreign competition—to their being undersold by American importers. That this was not so could be proved by figures. The hon. Member for South Leicestershire (Mr. Pell), in his Report as a Commissioner to investigate the agricultural resources of the United States, had given elaborate calculations to the effect that it would not pay to import in the long run American grain into this country for less than 48 s. a-quarter. His figures were much canvassed at the time; but they had been proved correct by fact. He held in his hand a Return with which he had been favoured of the price of wheat in Mark Lane month by month since the time when their calculations had been made; and from this Paper it appeared that only on three occasions—in September, October, and November, 1880—had the price temporarily fallen below 48 s. But what had ruined many a farmer was the cir-
      1848
      cumstance that he never was in a position to offer any article that would fetch any price at all in consequence of its deterioration through quite exceptionally disastrous atmospheric conditions. The fact was a number of circumstances concurred to aggravate the agricultural conditions. The wild and gambling speculation which had seized our industrial classes, and led to inflated periods of so-called prosperity, had also extended to farmers. They took farms at rents which were excessive, and so in evil times they found themselves involved in money engagements beyond their means, and in possession of an article so damaged as to be unsaleable. This was what had broken so many farmers in this country; but not the fact of any importation of American grain at prices of excessive lowness, for that grain, as a rule, fetched only 48 s. a-quarter; whereas the British agriculturist, from the disastrous seasons, came into Mark Lane with grain that was not fit for sale at all. There were, as it seemed to him, as many fallacies as could be crammed together in the Resolution of the hon. Member. Apparently, he feared any development of foreign industry, and thought a monopoly necessary for the prosperity of the country, though the only way of securing that monopoly was by imposing duties which he called retaliatory, but which would be paid, in reality, not by foreigners, but by the British consumer. The true test of Free Trade was whether, in the same circumstances, the position of the country would have been bettered by Protection; and he held that no arguments could be adduced in support of that proposition. He would only add, in conclusion, that he also took exception to the hon. Gentleman's statements as to pauperism, for he maintained that at no time had pauperism weighed so little as at present.
      MR. MACIVERsaid, he was glad that the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs was in his place, as he should have to refer to him in very pointed terms. With reference to the speech that had just been made, it was almost altogether nonsense, although there were one or two remarks worth attention, as they might be taken in connection with a speech made some time ago, at Leeds, by the Prime Minister. It was then pointed out by the Prime Minister how American shipping had disappeared from the seas and

      1849
      its place taken by British ships, and he argued that it was because the Americans were Protectionists. He (Mr. Mac Iver) said, without hesitation, that this question between American and English shipping was simply one of materials. Years ago, when wooden vessels were used, the Americans could build them very cheaply, having the wood at their doors; but now, when ships were nearly all of iron or steel, the cost of importing the material and the higher rate of wages in the United States made it impossible for the Americans to compete with us in that respect. Free Trade, if it existed to-morrow, would not annihilate the cost of freight across the Atlantic, or of a long railway journey from the iron producing districts of America to the seaports. He rose in no spirit of hostility to the Motion of his hon. Friend the Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ritchie), who had, in a speech free from allusion of a Party character, called attention to a subject which the working population of this country properly regarded of greater importance than mere political considerations. The Motion was practically the same as one which he (Mr. Mac Iver) presented to the last Parliament on the 4th July, 1879, and which at that time received but scant support even from those who would now cordially support the same proposition. Since that time, however, public opinion had advanced, and was advancing, and a Motion defeated in the present House might not improbably be carried in the next Parliament. His main object in rising was to call attention to some of the replies lately given him by the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on the subject of the French Commercial Treaty. The subject naturally was distasteful to hon. Members opposite; and if the clôture existed, it might be that the noble Lord the Secretary of State for India would, supported by his undoubted majority, decree that they wanted to hear no more of it. But, while free speech was still possible, he desired to show the House that he had a perfectly good case. The Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, replying to a couple of questions which he ventured to address to him last week, one of them in regard to shipping bounties, and the other in regard to the surtaxe d'entrepôt, raised a cheap laugh against him by referring him to the Blue
      1850
      Books. There was, however, a question of fact involved.
      MR. SPEAKER: I must point out to the hon. Member that he is travelling beyond the limits of the Question before the House.
      MR. MACIVERwished only to illustrate the commercial relations of England and France. Now, the answers of the hon. Baronet——
      MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is not in Order in referring to past debates of the present Session.
      MR. MACIVERsaid, he was not aware that the answers of Ministers were, for the purposes of Order, regarded as parts of past debates. His purpose was merely to refer to the Blue Books, and to say that the case which he desired to present could not be better put than in the words of M. Challemel-Lacour, as contained in one of the Blue Books issued the other day. M. Challemel Lacour, at the Conference held in London, June 30, 1881, and reported on page 289 of Blue Book "Commercial—No. 37 (1881)," used these words—
      "As to the criticisms of the French bounties to the Mercantile Navy, they are really quite out of place, the question having just been definitely settled by the Legislature. At the time of the preparation and voting of the law, the English Government might, perhaps, have sought, by diplomatic means, to influence the resolutions of the Government of the Republic; but now that it has to deal with an accomplished fact, it is impossible to see the fitness or the use of their observations, and the French Commissioners consider it necessary to decline to discuss the subject."
      He, therefore, contended that not only had this country not received any valuable concessions from France as regards the bounties on shipping, but that there was a time when Her Majesty's Government could have made diplomatic representations which might have brought about valuable concessions. He had now accomplished the purpose for which he rose, and he asked the House that the Motion of the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets should not suffer by anything he (Mr. Mac Iver) had said, because that Motion had really nothing whatever to do with those questions of fact on which he was at issue with the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. Many men of all shades of politics regarded the Motion of the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets as raising questions of more importance than Party considera-

      1851
      tions, because it vitally affected the prosperity of our people; and he appealed to the House to deal with it in that spirit. But before sitting down he desired to point out that the ships which, under the bounty system, the French were now having built in the yards of this country and of Scotland, and which for the moment provided employment for our workpeople, were built here simply because every shipbuilding yard in France was full, and only the surplus orders came to this country. That was not a state of things that was likely to last, and those who relied upon its continuance were like the person in the fable who killed the goose that laid the golden egg. The rolling mills of America wore increasing rapidly, and in a few months they would be able to make more rails than they could use. The trade of Sheffield was only temporarily brisk, and the revival would not last. He thought that every thoughtful man, knowing the condition of things, would feel in sympathy with the Resolution before the House.
      SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsaid, he felt a difficulty in replying to the hon. Gentleman who had just spoken, because he wished to avoid being called to Order, as the hon. Gentleman had been twice in the course of his speech. Perhaps, however, he might be allowed the same latitude as was permitted to the hon. Gentleman. The hon. Member had referred to the question of shipping bounties; but the question now under discussion related to Foreign Tariffs, and shipping bounties were not made the subject of Foreign Tariffs at all, and never had been so treated. The hon. Gentleman had quoted the words of M. Challemel-Lacour at the London Conference, and had said that Her Majesty's Government might have sought by diplomatic means to influence the views of the French Government in regard to those bounties. Now, the hon. Member was informed long ago that such diplomatic representations had been made. [Mr. MAC IVER: But made without result.]" What did the hon. Member think ought to have been done? The hon. Member said that the observations of M. Challemel-Lacour concluded the matter. He had advised the hon. Member to read the Blue Books, and he must repeat the advice. At the Conference in Paris he had returned to the subject and made a
      1852
      speech; and the hon. Member was not correct in saying that those were the last representations made on the matter. It would be out of Order, however, to discuss that question at length, because it did not fall properly within the scope of Foreign Tariffs, the subject immediately before the House. The speech of the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ritchie) had been already admirably dealt with by his hon. Friend the Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Cartwright), whose remarks he was very sorry to hear characterized by the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Mac Iver) as nonsense—a word seldom used in the House, and one certainly very inapplicable to the carefully-reasoned speech of his hon. Friend. The observations of the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets would be further dealt with by his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade; but he could not help remarking that the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets had proved nothing; but he had simply stated the case of his opponents, and had wound up by alleging that their observations were absurd, full of fallacies, or unworthy of the attention of the House. His speech was evidently intended to be popular with the Protectionist Party, without courageously and distinctly raising the flag of Protection. By hinting not obscurely in his closing words at the policy of Retaliation, he showed that he had that Protectionist leaning which he had earlier disclaimed.
      MR. STAVELEY HILLsaid, that the controversy between the hon. Member for Birkenhead and the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, was an incident in the debate with which the Resolution before the House had but little to do. He should contend that there might very well be Retaliation without any view to Protection at all. Retaliation had not necessarily anything whatever to do with Protection. Protectionists advocated the imposition of duties either to foster exotic trades, or to unduly encourage natural trades; but a retaliatory duty might be put on for fiscal purposes, without its being a protective duty. It did not follow that because a duty 'which was put on for one purpose might incidentally and partially have another result, that it was to take its character from that result; it would be just as reasonable to speak of drying

      1853
      the skin as the wetting of a towel. The hon. Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Cartwright) had spoken of farmers giving speculative rents in 1875. What he believed from the instances within his own knowledge was, that farms were taken speculatively and money borrowed to carry them on with, and that the loans involved the borrowers in difficulties. But he believed there were very few instances in which farms were taken at enhanced rents on the faith of a future prosperity. The Amendment of which he had given Notice was in the following terms:—
      "That, with a view to bring about a reduction of the heavy Duties now levied in many Foreign Countries upon British products and manufactures, and an assimilation of the fiscal system of the Colonies with that of the Mother Country, it is desirable for the purposes of Revenue, and to provide means for relieving many of the heavy burdens now pressing upon the producers and consumers of this Country, that Duties should be levied upon goods imported from such Foreign Countries: Provided that such Duties do not interfere with the amount of food required by the people of this Country."
      This had been spoken of as a friendly Amendment; but he had nothing at all to do with the Motion, and he thought the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets would rather regard the Amendment as unfriendly. He would not now support inquiry by a Committee, unless the proposed terms of Reference could be very much enlarged. Although he might on other grounds advocate the appointment of a Committee, he would not do so if it were only to inquire into the question of duties levied by foreign countries, and were not to inquire whether, in any circumstances, import duties might not be levied by this country without their having a protective character. It was in May, 1869, that he moved for a Committee to inquire into the working of the French Treaty. He had just been returned for Coventry, which had been vitally affected by it; and as the term of the Treaty was to expire in a year, he thought he might fairly move for a Committee of Inquiry. The Motion was opposed by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster on the ground that the time was hardly suitable; and he was led to believe that the Motion might be renewed in the following Session with more hope of success. He, however, went to a division, in which the numbers were less
      1854
      than they would have been had it not been that at the time it occurred Lord Cairns was speaking on the Irish Church in the other House, and many Members were listening to him. The proposal was renewed in May, 1870, by way of Amendment, to a Motion by the hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Birley), and since then he had not troubled the House on the subject, but had patiently waited until it should have fully ripened. What had been the result of our experience of the Treaty? It had expired, and it had had no mourners at all. There was no mistake about the depth of the feeling that pervaded the country on the subject. He had never mentioned it at meetings in Staffordshire and Lancashire, in manufacturing or agricultural districts, but the reference had been received with enthusiasm. He had been urged to bring it forward earlier, and in not doing so had subjected himself to violent restraint. He was no Protectionist at all; and he had never said a word in favour of protective duties, not even when he was Member for Coventry. If anything like protective duties were to be levied, they must be levied for a purpose wholly different from Protection, and that must be only of an incidental character. The title of the pamphlet which had been alluded to assumed that there was a question of "Free Trade versus Fair Trade." He denied that there was any such suit. The advocates of Fair Trade were out-and-out Free Traders in the fullest and most complete sense of the term. If they advocated Fair Trade, it was simply in order that they might bring about more complete Free Trade than we had had up to the present. He was sorry that a pamphlet containing such controversial statements had been issued by a permanent Under Secretary for whom they had the highest regard. In one paragraph, on page 4, sentiments were imputed to the hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Ecroyd), which he disavowed; they were put into turned commas, as if they were a quotation from a speech; and the hon. Member declared that he had never spoken the word, nor held the views that were attributed to him. He would pass away from this part of the subject with the remark that, Free Traders as they were, it was absurd to suppose that the people of England could be induced to accept Free

      1855
      Trade by such childish nonsense as was put forward in this book. There was one further point he would mention as an instance. Mr. Farrer went through the countries of the world which were Protectionists, and which, therefore, constituted the bulk of the world, and said that they sinned against light and against knowledge. It was nonsense for him to assert that a country could not be Protectionist and yet be successful; it was nonsense for him to state that countries were becoming more and more inclined to Free Trade. What was the case? France had put an end to the Commercial Treaty with this country, because she found that our imports into France were slightly increasing. On every item on which a somewhat increased import was shown she had pressed for increased duties. In three years the import of paper into France had increased by £490,000 a-year; that was stopped by the imposition of a high duty. It was obvious that France was determined to prevent any increase in our importations to her, and to become, in an evil sense of the word, Protectionist. With regard to Canada, Mr. Farrer asserted that she had greatly increased her Tariffs, and that they bade fair to rival the monstrous Tariffs of the United States. Did he mean to assert that Canada was not prosperous? She had to put on duties simply to bring her up to the level of the United States, and to prevent capital which might otherwise come to her going to the United States. She tried, under the Mackenzie Government, the policy of pure Free Trade, and the result was that nearly everyone in Canada was being ruined and made bankrupt. Then, in 1879, Sir John A. Macdonald went through the country advocating his National policy, which was Protectionist. It had been adopted, but the authors had distinctly disclaimed that it had been adopted against the Mother Country, and alleged that it had been introduced only as a protection against the United States. What had been the result of that policy? When he travelled through the country with the hon. Member for Oxfordshire, a short time back, they scarcely found one poor person. Instead of the difficulties with which the country had to contend, when the Mackenzie policy was the rule, Canada now was one of the most prosperous countries in the world. But it
      1856
      was upon the United States that Mr. Farrer poured out the full vials of his wrath. They were the greatest sinners, for they were the most intelligent, and ought to know so much better than to adopt Protection. Yet their present Tariffs ranged from 35 to 100 per cent, which, said Mr. Farrer, "was probably as near Protection as a working Tariff could be." Yet in the United States, in 1880, the imports exceeded the exports; £64,000,000 were paid off the Debt, and £20,000,000 were borrowed at 3 per cent. That was the effect of Protection upon the United States. How did Mr. Farrer account for the prosperity of the United States? He said that such were the magnificent natural advantages enjoyed by the country, and such the blessings of Providence, that, in spite of the folly of man, the United States did an enormous trade with us, and were in a prosperous condition. Did Mr. Farrer suppose that Providence was unduly kind to the United States? It would be very much better if Free Traders were to argue this question in a different manner. It would be very much better for them to admit, as all must admit, that it was possible for a country, and especially for a new country, to be Protectionist and yet to be prosperous. In discussing this question they naturally came to the consideration of the relation of imports and exports. He believed that a country might become very rich, so far as money went, by reason of cheap imports. To quote the words of the hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Birley), in 1870—
      "However beneficial it might be to the moneyed circle, to the trading class, as distinct from the manufacturing class, and to the commercial and shipping interests, it had not given any additional employment to the workpeople of this country, hut had had rather the opposite effect."—[3 Hansard, cci. 113.]
      If that were so, he did not think that the manufacturer should be protected at the expense of the two former classes; but they had to consider whether the State owed the manufacturer anything. What were the burdens which had been placed on the manufacturing classes? By their different sanitary laws they had laid upon the manufacturing classes very heavy and expensive burdens. The Mines Regulation Act, the Factory Acts, and many other Acts of Parliament had laid great and expensive burdens upon

      1857
      the manufacturing interests. He was not alone in holding that view. He held in his hand a Report containing the views of the largest ironmasters in England and Scotland. They said that one of the arguments used in 1860 by the French, in the discussions on the high duties on iron imports into France, was that the French ironmasters were then at a great disadvantage, in consequence of the legal restrictions placed upon them. The French ironmasters, therefore, claimed to be entitled to put forward the extra cost of production thrown upon them as a reason for the duty. That argument was accepted by Mr. Cobden as a reason why the French should put high duties on iron. The Report then went on to say that there was no longer any necessity for the imposition of that duty. Affairs had now changed, and it was the English manufacturers who were put to considerable expense in the production of iron ore; and the Report urged, therefore, unless the French duty were reduced, a retaliatory duty should be put on by this country. He might say that he had not selected that instance because it was the strongest. He thought that there was a right to place a certain import duty on goods coming into this country under circumstances such as these without it being considered a Protectionist duty. Very heavy expenses were laid upon the manufacturers by the Sanitary Laws; and how did they find other countries acted in the like circumstances? He hoped the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade would have obtained details from their Ambassadors abroad as to the cost of production in France, Switzerland, and Germany, and of any sanitary regulations in force in those countries tending to increase the cost of production. Though they had not that information before them, yet they knew that there was no law in France such as that which most properly existed in this country for protecting the health of workmen and shortening the hours of labour. He believed that a Bill regulating the hours of labour was lately introduced into the French Assembly and rejected. The proposition was rejected on the ground that it would be a burden on labour. A foreign producer could, as it were, smuggle into this country articles free from sanitary requirements, which could not be produced here with
      1858
      out those sanitary requirements which our Legislature had imposed. Now, then, came the question, could we determine upon any figures that would represent the cost which the law put on ordinary manufactures which did not fall upon such articles in foreign countries? He said we could. He had carefully gone through the figures presented to him, and he ventured to say that the bulk of the goods manufactured in England were produced at a greater cost by 10 per cent in consequence of sanitary regulations such as he had referred to. Were we not, therefore, entitled to place an import duty of 10 per cent upon similar goods coming from countries where there were no sanitary regulations? He, for one, would not put forward any desire that there should not be a considerable import of manufactured goods from foreign countries. There were many things produced by foreign countries which we required, and which it would be absolute folly, by protective duties, to foster the manufacture of here. There was an import of manufactured goods, as far as he could ascertain, of from £60,000,000 to £70,000,000. He did not know whether the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade agreed in that; but that was the figure, as far as he had been able to get it from Mr. Farrer's book.
      MR. CHAMBERLAIN: The imports of manufactured goods amount to £35,000,000.
      MR. STAVELEY HILL: The right hon. Gentleman had knowledge on these matters; but he (Mr. Staveley Hill) had gone through the figures many times and put the amount higher. However, taking the amount at £35,000,000, a 10 per cent duty would yield £3,500,000. There were many things which might be done with the £3,500,000. There were taxes which might be made light, and which at present pressed heavily on the shoulders of people. The Chancellor of the Exchequer might deal with the great question of tea, and also with the question of beer; and not only that, but he could easily understand that the very placing of such a fiscal duty upon foreign countries, while it would not in any way be a protecting duty, or at all interfere with the importation of any manufactured goods from abroad, would act as a deterrent against the raising of Foreign Tariffs. It would not bring

      1859
      about a war, nor should we look to its bringing about a war of hostile Tariffs. He hoped he would not be regarded in what he was going to say as unduly pandering to working men. He was not one of those who wished to put the working man in any way above his fellows. As far as they were a numerous body, they were entitled to greater consideration than any other sot of men; but he was not one of those who would urge any argument in favour of the working man, simply because he happened to be one of a most numerous body. But this was a question essentially for working men, because an increased importation of manufactured goods affected the demand for work of the wage-earning class. Imports during the year 1880 had risen from £258,000,000 to £318,000,000, being an increase of £60,000,000, and the import of manufactured goods had increased £23,500,000. How did that affect the labour of the wage-earning class, because the proposition which he had before him was that the importation of manufactured goods increased the demand for labour of the wage-earning class? He took as an instance of that what took place in Germany during the Franco-German War. In 1870 there broke out that war of desolation—the Franco-German War—and during that war there were drawn from productive industry in Germany 1,250,000 men. Those were men who were absolutely engaged under arms; but when he added to them those persons who were not employed in productive labour, the total of the men withdrawn from productive industry was close upon 2,000,000. Before the war the excess of imports into Germany over exports was about £15,000,000, In 1876, when productive labour might be supposed to have returned to its ordinary channel, the excess of imports over exports was about £13,000,000. In five years, from 1871 to 1875 inclusive, we might take the total excess of manufactured goods imported into Germany over those exported at £115,000,000, and, dividing that by five, we got an average excess of 23,000,000 a-year. How was that paid for? France paid to Germany a War Indemnity of £200,000,000, and out of that was paid by Germany about £100 per man for two years to the 1,365,000 who were under arms. A portion of the £200,000,000
      1860
      was paid by France out of capital; but the remainder was paid in goods supplied to Germany. If we knew how that excess of imports diminished the employment of productive labour, we had gone far to show that the excess of imports from France lessened the demand for productive labour. He argued that, as an excess of unemployed labour led to an excess of imports, so was an abnormal excess of imports the measure of the unemployed labour in a country at a given time. If, during one of the years alluded to by the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ritchie), there was an excess of imported manufactured goods over exports to the extent of £24,000,000, the effect must have been that £18,000,000 were taken from the wage-earning class, if 75 per cent were understood to represent the labour upon manufactured goods. It was clear now that the French Treaty was unsatisfactory; it was not really based upon the principle of reciprocal advantage, as such Treaties ought to be, according to the dictum of Mr. Huskisson in 1830. He held that we should either become parties to a Treaty which was a fair bargain or have our hands untied. England, however, might with advantage enter into a Commercial Customs Union with her Colonies, which in a few years time would be able to supply the Mother Country with as much corn as she could wish for. Though he could not move the Amendment of which he had given Notice, he maintained in the terms which he had placed upon the Paper that, with a view to bring about a reduction of the heavy duties now levied in many foreign countries upon British products and manufactures, it was desirable that duties of a light character, amounting, say, to 10 per cent, should be levied upon manufactured goods imported from such foreign countries, provided that such duties did not interfere with the amount of food required by the people of this country.
      SIR JOHN LUBBOCK: Sir, the hon. Gentleman the Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ritchie) proposes a Committee with so wide a reference and so vast a subject that, in fact, to go into the whole question not one, but half-a-dozen Committees, would be required. The Resolution as it stands would cover all fiscal enactments—not only our own, but those of all foreign

      1861
      nations—nay, it would include all measures bearing on commerce and manufactures—such, for instance, as the Mines Regulation, Factories, and other similar Bills. I cannot imagine that it could ever be wise to appoint a Committee with functions so indefinite; but even if some reasonable limitations were imposed on the scope of the inquiry, we ought to ask ourselves what ground there is for hope that such a Committee could lead to any good result. I do not, indeed, wonder that the hon. Member should propose such a Resolution. During the Recess we heard, over and over again, that Free Trade had failed, that Fair Trade was necessary for the interests of the country. These views were industriously circulated throughout the Provinces; and in agricultural districts hints were thrown about of a 5s. duty on corn, which was to bring in a considerable revenue, and raise the value of wheat, but not the price of bread. When Parliament met, the hon. Member for South Nottinghamshire (Mr. Storer), who accepted these statements in good faith, placed on the Notice Paper an elaborate Resolution, which set out all these arguments, and having secured the first place on a Tuesday evening, naturally expected that he would be supported by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for North Lincolnshire (Mr. J. Lowther) and his Friends. They were not, however, prepared in this House to defend the views advocated on Provincial platforms, or to recommend a 5s. duty on wheat. In hopes of encouraging them, the hon. Member for South Nottinghamshire, only the evening before his Resolution was to come on, threw overboard half of it; but, notwithstanding this concession on his part, his Friends could not be induced to face a discussion here. They left the House, and allowed it to be counted out. The country will draw its own conclusions. But it was necessary to do something, and the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ritchie) now comes forward with a Motion intended to cover the retreat of his hon. Friends. What can the hon. Member seriously expect from an inquiry so vaguely indicated and so unlimited in its scope? I fear, indeed, that to accept the Resolution would defeat the very object professed by the hon. Gentleman. It would be interpreted abroad to mean that our experience had created doubts
      1862
      after all, as to the wisdom of Free Trade; and it might, therefore, tend to weaken the Free Trade Party in foreign countries. The hon. Member confines his Motion to the duties imposed by foreign countries, and wishes, as I understand, to encourage our trade with our own Colonies rather than with foreign countries; but if we are to commence a war of Tariffs, we should be acting in the very opposite direction. According to Returns recently obtained by the noble Lord the Member for Liverpool (Viscount Sandon) and the hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford (Mr. J. G. Talbot), it would appear that, with the exception of Russia, most foreign countries have lowered their Tariff in the last 20 years. That is the case with Holland, Belgium, France, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Italy, Austria, and Hungary. On the other hand, it is a melancholy fact that our own Colonies show a tendency towards Protection. The duties in Victoria, South Australia, Western Australia, New Zealand, Queensland, Canada, and the Cape of Good Hope are all higher than they were in I860. New South Wales and the West Indies are honourable exceptions; but the result is that in any system of differential duties the tendency would be to raise the taxation on imports from most of our own Colonies, and lower them on those from most foreign countries. It seems to be generally assumed that our trade suffers from the Protectionist policy of other countries. Speakers often say they are for Free Trade, but not for one-sided Free Trade. But how does this matter really stand? Suppose the simplest case—that all the world was Protectionist except ourselves. What would be the result? Every country would produce some commodity in excess of its requirements, which it would export. How is it to be paid? Our manufacturers, obtaining, as by the hypothesis they would, food, raw material, and semi-manufactured products duty free, would be placed at an overwhelming advantage as compared with other manufacturers; every other country would find they could purchase most satisfactorily in Great Britain; and our manufacturers would, therefore, gradually absorb the trade of the world. This is, in fact, what, to a certain extent, happens even now. I should like to ask the hon. Member dis-

      1863
      tinctly—What is the country with reference to which he would desire to raise our Tariff? It cannot be France, who has just passed a Bill to place us on the most favourable footing. I have shown that, unfortunately, our own Colonies—the countrymen of Cobden and Bright—are at present most behindhand in the science of political economy; but I presume the hon. Gentleman does not wish to interpose any artificial barriers between us and them. Probably he is thinking either of Russia or of the United States. But, as regards Russia, we import from that country no appreciable quantity of manufactured articles—less, I believe, than £250,000. She supplies us mainly with food and raw materials, which no one seriously proposes to tax. Moreover, the only effect of putting a differential duty on Russian produce would be that it would come round through Germany, and we should pay the railway fare. Let us, then, turn to the United States. I must say, in commencing, that I doubt if England would ever consent to impose differential duties as against any English-speaking race. For the moment, however, we will discuss the question purely on economical grounds. We export to the United States £38,000,000; while our imports of manufactured articles are less than £3,000,000, a large proportion of which consist of ingenious American devices. The importation of American manufactures, therefore, is so small, that it cannot have any appreciable effect on the gigantic proportions of our national commerce. But let us look into the matter a little further, and consider the effect of the American protective duties on her own interests. The United States produce great quantities of food and of cotton. These she exports. How is she to be paid? She does not require gold or silver, for her own mines supply her. She must, therefore, import manufactures. What, then, is the result of her protective duties? Who pays them? Our manufacturers, of course, send their goods to the best market. They will not sell them to the United States if they can get better prices elsewhere. The American consumer, therefore, pays in the price of the article not only the whole cost of the production, but also the so-called protective duties imposed by his own Government. The effect of those duties is to raise prices
      1864
      in the United States, to a certain extent to divert American capital from more profitable to less profitable employments, and to exclude American manufactures from the markets of the world. For, though the Protectionist policy of America does not, as a matter of fact, shut us out of her markets, it does exclude her manufactures from the markets of the world, because her manufacturers, having to pay so much more for their raw materials, are incapacitated from competing with ours. And what is true of the United States is true of other countries. They cannot and do not exclude our manufactures; but their protective duties, raising the price of raw materials, place their own manufacturers at a disadvantage as compared with ours, and shut them out from the markets of the world. It may be said that this is theoretical. Let us, then, contrast our figures with those of the United States—a country which has all the elements of prosperity, but which has, unfortunately for herself, adopted the Protectionist Tariff. The population of the United States is 50,000,000, while ours is only 35,000,000. But the American manufacturers, who are protected, only export £17,500,000; while our manufacturers, who are unprotected, export £191,000,000. If we take the whole exports from the United Kingdom and the United States, per head of the population, for the year 1840, they were—For the United Kingdom, £1 18 s. 9d.; for the United States, £1 11 s. 1d. Last year they were—For the United Kingdom, £6 9s. 5d.; for the United States, £ 3 8s. ld. Thus, while in the case of the United States they had risen £115 s. per head, in the United Kingdom they had risen £4 10 s. per head. If, on the other hand, we take the imports, the amount of foreign productions brought into the country to promote the comfort and well-being of our people, the amount per head last year was—For the United States, £2 13 s. 3d.; for the United Kingdom no less than£11 18.s. 7d.But then our opponents say—" Oh; hut that is just what we complain of. We imported last year £411,000,000, and we only exported £286,000,000; we imported, therefore, £125,000,000 more than we exported; and if this goes on the country must be ruined." Why should it be ruined? It is estimated by the best authorities that we have to receive £75,000,000 a-year as interest

      1865
      on our foreign investments. Freight, commissions, and other items, make up, at least, £70,000,000 more; and, in fact, if it were not that we are continually investing capital in our Colonies and abroad, the difference between our imports and exports would certainly be even greater than it is. But the whole complaint is most extraordinary. We imported these goods because we wanted them. Nobody complains that we had too much foreign produce; but they lament that we did not pay enough for it. They complain that our exports were not larger; they would like us to have given more of our British manufactures, more coal and iron, and Manchester goods. If we had exported £100,000,000 more—that is to say, if the imports had cost us £100,000,000 more—I suppose they would have been satisfied. But who ever before heard of a great Party making it a serious complaint that we did not pay enough for what we consumed? Our exports are what we sell, and our imports are what we buy. If our Fair Traders would carry their principles into private life, and endeavour to enrich themselves by paying more for all they buy, they will probably see the singular error into which they are falling. They give to Canning's well-known lines quite a new application. We used to be told that—
      "In matters of Commerce the fault of the Dutch,
      Was giving too little and asking too much."
      But our Fair Traders have entirely reversed this complaint. The fault, not only of the Dutch, but of all other nations, now is, according to the Fair Traders, that they give us too much of their produce in exchange for ours. If the £400,000,000 which we imported last year had cost us £100,000,000 more than it did, the hon. Member would, apparently, have been perfectly satisfied. The motto of the Fair Traders seems to be that the way to make money is to buy in a dear and sell in a cheap market, which will give you the great satisfaction of "increasing your exports." Was there ever in this world a more singular fallacy? I observed that the other day a noble Lord, arguing nominally for Fair Trade, drifted unconsciously into Protection, and frankly said that he thought almost every trade required protection. Well, if he went a little further and protected them all,
      1866
      he would see the absurdity of his proposal; for if everybody, by an elaborate machinery, is to pay for everybody else, surely it is better to let things take their natural course. The hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Ecroyd), in his article in The Nineteenth Century, argued in favour of cultivating our trade with the Colonies rather than with foreign countries, because, he said—
      "In buying food from our Colonies we enjoy a return trade in our manufactures at least 20 times larger per head than with the Americans or Russians."
      But in such an argument there is a most singular confusion of ideas. When we import food, the "return trade," which, as he quaintly puts it, "we enjoy," is, in simple language, the price we pay for our provisions. I am not prepared to admit that for every quarter of wheat we import from a Colony we should export 20 times as great a value in manufactured articles as if we imported the same quantity of wheat from Russia; but suppose it was so, that is, after all, only to say that we should pay 20 times as dearly for it, which would surely be a singular advantage. Suppose foreign countries sent us food, and that we "enjoyed "no return trade, they would, in fact, be giving us the food for nothing. Germany, we know, has recently adopted, in some measure, the policy of hon. Gentlemen opposite. And what has been the result? Has trade improved? On the contrary, the Reports of the German Chambers of Commerce have recently been collected together, and the result is that they express an almost unanimous opinion that the New Tariff has proved injurious. I observe that the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ritchie) limits his Resolution to foreign countries, probably because, if he did not do so, his Amendment would give in practice differential duties in favour of foreign countries as against our Colonies. He limits his Amendment, therefore, to foreign countries. Then, again, I believe he would not tax food. Does he intend to levy duties on raw materials? To tax raw materials would certainly be no been to our manufacturers. But if they are also to be excluded, what remains? Out of a total importation of £411,000,000 there are only £35,000,000 of manufactured articles retained for our own use. Moreover, this comparatively small sum is

      1867
      divided among so many countries, that there is no one on which we could exercise any effective coercion by imposing a duty on manufactures, even if we were disposed to do so. That any such attempt, however, would be most dangerous and even suicidal is, I think, conclusively shown by the fact that while our whole import of foreign manufactures is only £35,000,000, our export of manufactures is £190,000,000, of which nearly £95,000,000 is to countries with Protectionist Tariffs. To engage in a war of Tariffs under such circumstances would be dangerous indeed. But what is really the state of our commerce? "What has been the course of our export trade of British products? It had gradually increased, until, in 1873, it amounted to £255,000,000. But in 1874 there was a change of Ministry. From that time we were disturbed by wars and rumours of wars. Whether right hon. Gentlemen opposite were to blame for this, or whether, as they of course maintain, these alarms were not due to any fault of theirs, is not the question now before the House. Unquestionably, however, the uncertainty thus created affected our trade most prejudicially. From £255,000,000 in 1873, it fell to £240,000,000 in 1874, £223,000,000 in 1875, £200,000,000 in 1876, £198,000,000 in 1877, £192,000,000 in 1878, and £191,000,000 in 1879. Last year, happily, it rose again to £223,000,000. Nay, if the exports of last year were estimated at previous prices, the total would, perhaps, exceed that of any former year. Sir, the immense increase in our commerce since we adopted Free Trade is patent to everyone. To a certain extent, no doubt, that increase is due to the increase in population, the improvement of machinery, the use of steam, and the improved means of locomotion—in fact, to the applications of practical science. But those advantages foreign nations share with us. Now, if we contrast our foreign trade under the system of Free Trade with that of the principal countries of the world which have that system of restricted imports to which the hon. Member wishes us to revert, what do we find? Russia, with a population of 86,000,000, has a foreign trade of £183,000,000; the United States, with a population of 50,000,000, has a foreign trade of £290,000,000; Germany, with a population of 44,000,000,
      1868
      has a foreign trade of £350,000,000; Austria, with a population of 38,000,000, has a foreign trade of £128,000,000; France, with a population of 37,000,000, has a foreign trade of £340,000,000; while Great Britain, with a population of only 35,000,000, has a foreign trade of £700,000,000. I do not deny that some great interests are suffering. It is, unfortunately, too clear that farmers especially have lost heavily from bad harvests during the last five years. But, Sir, what is, on the whole, the condition of the country at the present time? In spite of the bad harvests, in spite of our enormous National Expenditure, which I am sure no one regrets more than the Prime Minister, we are making money and saving money. No doubt there have been more prosperous times; but yet every indication shows that the country is increasing in wealth. The total annual value in property assessed for the Income Tax in 1870 was £445,000,000; in 1879 it was £578,000,000: during the last 10 years we have laid out over £100,000,000 in railways in Great Britain and Ireland; our shipping has increased from 5,700,000 to 6,700,000 tons; and it is surely a proud boast that more than half the shipping on the high seas carries the Queen's flag! The total of coal and metals produced in 1870 was £46,000,000; in 1880 was £64,000,000. The Clearing House transactions in 1870 were £3,900.000,000; in 1880, £5. 718,000,000; and' this year, I believe, will show an increase of no less than £ 500,000,000. The numbers of cotton piece goods exported in 1870 were 3,250,000; in 1880, 4,500,000. We have heard a good deal about the wool trade; but the amount of raw wool used was, in 1870, 323,000,000 lbs.; in 1880, 370,000,000 lbs. The deposits in savings banks have increased from £35,000,000 to £77,000,000. The number of able bodied paupers in 1849 was 200,000; in 1880 it had fallen to 110,000, although, the population had increased more than 30 per cent. The improved scale of comfort of our people is shown by the increased consumption per head of such, articles as tea and sugar, butter and cheese. Lastly, I think every banker will confirm me when I say that our investments in foreign securities are increasing every day. I do not deny that some trades are suffering; but, on the whole, whatever test you take, all tend

      1869
      to show that the wealth and prosperity of the country, as a whole, is increasing. Moreover, it must be remembered that this general improvement is the more significant and remarkable when we reflect that it has taken place in spite of a succession of bad harvests. If it can be proved to demonstration, as I think it can, that, on the whole, the country is richer than it was 10 years ago; and if it is admitted that, unfortunately, our harvests have been disastrous, it follows, of course, that our commerce and manufactures must have prospered. I do not say that that prosperity is wholly due to Free Trade; but that Free Trade has largely promoted it I firmly believe. When foreign nations endeavour to exclude us from their markets, they shut themselves out from the markets of the world—nay, rather, as experience shows, their so-called system of Protection, while it cannot keep us out, shuts them in. So long as there are no differential duties against us; so, long as each foreign nation admits our goods on as favourable terms as those of other countries, I doubt not that our manufacturers will be able to hold their own. The "Most Favoured Nation" Clause is, therefore, what I think we should contend for. In conclusion I trust that this House will give no support to any Motion which would in any way tend to imperil that wise system of Free Trade, under which our manufactures and commerce have attained to a magnitude and prosperity unparalleled and unexampled in the history of the world.
      MR. ECROYDsaid, that, if he were disposed to go into the question, he could bring clear proof to show that, if a marked fall in the manufacturing industries of the country had taken place while the Conservatives were in power, a recovery in manufacturing industries took place many months before the fall of the Government of Lord Beaconsfield. But such considerations were really beside the question now before the House. He proposed to deal with the hon. Baronet's argument, and to examine the effect of Foreign Tariffs on trade, and then to go on to see what could be done in the way of legislation for the promotion of the trade and industries of the nation. They had just witnessed the failure of the attempt to negotiate a Treaty with France. That was a matter for surprise, for one would have thought
      1870
      that the 20 years' experience that France had enjoyed in connection with this country would have induced her to adopt Free Trade, and to become the precursor of that policy throughout Europe. He had felt the most complete confidence in the efforts the Government had made to negotiate a new Treaty of Commerce, and in the ability of the hon. Baronet the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, who had acted on behalf of the Government in the negotiations; and those negotiations had only failed because France had determined to have a retrograde Treaty or none at all, and to fall back again upon that policy which the Emperor Napoleon was induced, by the arguments of Mr. Cobden, to abandon some 20 years ago. The hon. Baronet had challenged them to state some definite policy. He accepted that challenge, and would, in the fewest possible words, state what was the policy they believed should be adopted by this country. In the first place, they had to consider whether the present state of things was not due to the action of Foreign Tariffs. He would, therefore, proceed to deal with the question of productive industries. He believed those who said that the manufacturing classes were much more prosperous than they were 20 years ago. That was the opinion of experienced men of business. The statistics, in many cases, were completely irrelevant to the issues raised in the present debate. Statistics told them what the amount of the trade of the country was; but they did not state what would be the effect of assisting the development of the resources of the country. Again, with regard to the improvement that had shown itself in our foreign investments, it was impossible to say whether we were not thereby losing some of the resources of the country. We were absolutely without any information which would enable us to arrive at any safe conclusion upon that important element. Again, upon the question of paupers, in spite of the long period of depression of trade, only a comparatively small number of the population were thrown on parish relief. During the prosperity of the last 20 or 30 years, for which he would give credit to the Free Trade policy of the country, he and others who were engaged in manufacturing industries in the North were well aware that a considerable

      1871
      change had taken place an the condition of the manufacturing population, and that they were now able to bear a considerable amount of depression without being driven to seek parish relief. When depression took place, they first of all had recourse to their previous savings; then they took to restricting their expenditure; then, he was sorry to say, they gradually parted with their stock of furniture; and then, finally, they had to get into debt to obtain the necessaries of life. He could speak from his own personal experience of the honourable manner in which the people faced their difficulties. Not many years ago, when, in consequence of the depression in trade, he and those who were connected with him had to restrict production, they made advances to their workpeople without any security, in order to enable them to tide over their difficulties; and they were afterwards repaid without the loss of a single farthing. Taking that case as an example, we should look in vain to the statistics of pauperism to ascertain the losses suffered by the productive industries of the country. Then, as to the Income Tax, would anyone be found to assert that the landowners were not paying much more Income Tax on the same income than formerly? Had they had an allowance made to them of Income Tax anything like in proportion to the losses they had sustained? We knew they had had nothing of the kind. As regarded Schedule B, a large number of the farmers, no doubt, made accurate returns; but in many cases the return was made at random, and they were satisfied if the Commissioners reasonably assessed the Income Tax to be paid. He was satisfied that those returns did not present a safe foundation for drawing conclusions as to the losses sustained by productive industries. With reference to the effects of the Tariffs, the alterations in the Foreign Tariffs afforded no guide as to their effect in restricting British exports. The duty of 10 per cent levied on our manufactures had no restrictive effect on the trade of the English manufacturer; but the longer it was maintained the greater effect it would have, until ultimately English goods would be kept out; so that the 10 per cent, which was now comparatively harmless, became, in the course of time, absolutely prohibitive. The Foreign Tariff injured us by
      1872
      limiting our productive industries. The hon. Baronet the Member for the University of London (Sir John Lubbock), who preceded him, had stated that we obtained imports in exchange for exports. There could be no doubt as to that; but they said that the productive industries depended in great measure on the ability to purchase imports; and, therefore, by placing restrictions on the productive industries, and crippling the manufactures, a distinct injury was done to the trade and prosperity of the country. Hon. Members, if they would refer to the Commercial Blue Book, No. 38, page 72, would find a letter from Mr. Kersham, the President of the Luton Chamber of Commerce, with regard to the French Tariffs. He said there that the proposed duty would entirely prohibit the exportation of straw hats; and he further remarked that as a large quantity of those goods would be exported to France when there was no demand for them, he earnestly desired that they would urge on the French Government the importance of re-considering the matter. On page 113 of the same Blue Book the President of the Central Chamber of Agriculture, speaking of the duties on woollen goods, said that it was a matter which concerned the agriculturist as well as the manufacturer. The injury to agriculture was of a secondary nature; but it was distinctly felt, nevertheless. A reference had been made to the disastrous influence on the Bradford trade by the increase in the German Tariff. There could be no doubt that that was partly the cause of the falling-off in that trade, and that it was not wholly due to the change in fashion to soft goods, which, required Colonial wools for their manufacture. Another influence of the Foreign. Tariffs was the exaggerated fluctuations of demand. In the coal and iron trades, for instance, that was seen, especially as regarded the demand from America. The effect of the overflow of the American demand was that it unduly stimulated the labour of those industries in this country. The moment that demand failed, the American workmen would still be employed, owing to the Protective Tariff which existed there; while our workmen would cease to be employed, and the ultimate effects must therefore be disastrous to our trade. Another effect of these exaggerated demands was

      1873
      that on the moral condition of the population. The moment the demand ceased a depression followed, and the avoidance of such unhealthy fluctuations as that could hardly be bought too dear at any price. In a pamphlet which had been published recently by Mr. Farrer, that gentleman reminded the Protectionists that the cheapness of goods was owing to foreign competition. They had often been accused of being Protectionists, and had been called by that name. An endeavour had been made to prove that he and his Friends had complained of foreign competition. He had never done so. Mr. Farrer had made that assertion, and, as evidence, had quoted an article in The Nineteenth Century, which really proved the reverse. He had not complained of foreign competition, but of Foreign Tariffs, and had said that we ought to free ourselves from the effect of Foreign Tariffs. Mr. Farrer had absolutely misquoted him, and imputed to him opinions the very contrary of those which he entertained. If an opponent had recourse to such methods, he must be reduced to desperate straits indeed. Those Foreign Tariffs had caused a lamentable deterioration in our fabrics. In the same Blue Book, on page 59, would be found the evidence of Mr. John Merry, the President of the South of Scotland Chamber of Commerce, and which was to the effect that the prohibitive duties charged by foreign countries compelled the production of an inferior article. Ten per cent had to be taken off the cost of production, representing 5 per cent in inferiority of quality, and 5 per cent in reduction of wages. Wages had been reduced to the lowest possible rate consistent with the maintenance of the workman. He had found the necessity of manufacturing meretricious articles had told especially on our trade with Spain. The same effect had been produced in English plate-glass exported to France. The result was that the French consumers had to pay 20 per cent for English plate-glass above its natural price if there were no duties. Another consequence naturally was to encourage the production of an inferior kind of article. Thus, too, the French producer was enabled to pour his goods into this country without limit. He was not then discussing the effect upon the English consumers, who, it would be said, profited by this influx
      1874
      of foreign goods. Thus, an unfair and illegitimate competition was created, very detrimental to English industries. In periods of great prosperity the restraint thus put on our commerce with certain countries was but little felt, as the general trade of the country, spread over a wide area, tended to obscure the hardships in our trade with particular countries. He would compare our export and import trades in two series of years. In the years 1871, 1872, 1873, and 1874, which were exceptionally prosperous, the imports in meat, dairy produce, grain, and potatoes amounted to £305,500,000. In 1877, 1878, 1879, and 1880, the imports in the same articles amounted to £417,750,000, showing an increase of £112,000,000 in our imports of agricultural produce. He would next give the total exports abroad of our five leading industries—namely, metals, textiles, chemicals, railway carriages, &c, earthenware, china, and glass. Our total exports of these great products of our manufacturing industries in the first series of years, 1871, 1872, 1873, and 1874, amounted to £789,000,000. In the second series of years, 1877, 1878, 1879, and 1880, they amounted to £627,000,000. Thus the falling-off in the exports of these great products was £162,000,000 simultaneously with an increased import of agricultural produce to the extent of £112,000,000. He had always admitted that the income due to us from foreign investments and amounts earned on freights, and the profits on our foreign commerce, were all legitimate reasons why we should import a great deal more in value than we exported. It was not, however, that fact which we were now dealing with; but with the fact that in four years of disaster, when every source of our foreign income which ought to account for excess of imports had failed in an extraordinary manner, the excess of imports over exports was £284,000,000 more than the same excess had been in the four profitable years. It was quite clear that here was a phenomenon which required the most attentive consideration. It might be said, no doubt with truth, that the change in the amount of our foreign investments had much to do with, this phenomenon; but no more damaging admission could be made by hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House. The right hon. Gentleman the

      1875
      First Lord of the Treasury made two remarkable speeches at Leeds on the 7th and 8th of October last; and, in regard to this particular question, the right hon. Gentleman spoke of the great falling-off in the export of our industries during this period of depression to which he had just been alluding. It was estimated by the right hon. Gentleman that in 1877, 1878, 1879, and 1880, the falling off was £161,000,000. The right hon. Gentleman went on to analyze the effect of that falling-off in our exports upon the condition of the country; and he estimated the loss of profit at £16,000,000, or 10 per cent, and the loss of trade at £8,000,000, making a total loss of £ 24,000,000. But he must point out that, in his argument, the right hon. Gentleman failed to notice the enormous loss sustained by the cessation of wages and rent and interest and capital upon buildings, and the expensive machinery employed, which must in many cases have amounted not to 10 per cent, but to 50, or 60, or 70 per cent. Many of our mechanical industries, and the coalmining industries, were reduced to half work. At all events, this was the case in many districts. In South Wales the result was much worse than this, and the production of iron was actually brought to a standstill. This diminution of the national earnings, he might observe, could never afterwards be regained. If foreign nations would have accepted our goods on equitable terms, those industries would still have been employed. But for the alteration of the American Tariff, the Americans would, in exchange for the food they imported, have taken a large quantity of the manufactures and products of this country. Here we put our finger on the exact manner in which Foreign Tariffs diminished the resources of the country and injured its industries. Our loss from the failure of agricultural produce on occasions like this was aggravated by the artificial stoppage of our manufacturing industries. It was an unfortunate fact, which added seriously to the difficulty calling for solution, that not only were we liable to recurring depressions of trade, but agricultural employment was also being contracted, and land was being changed from arable to pasture, or it was allowed to remain fallow. Every thousand acres so changed displaced 28 families of agricultural labourers, and thus diminished
      1876
      the wages earned. Therefore, we had not only contraction of our manufacturing industries, and of the employment they afforded, but we had a serious diminution in agricultural employment, which was throwing the agricultural population more and more on the large towns, bringing them into competition with those employed in manufacture. In the last 10 or 15 years there had been a great reduction in the value of mill property and industrial works. The diminution of income sustained by the landed interest through the competition of American corn was a very serious injury to the nation at large, because it contracted the expenditure of an important class, and was felt through every branch of trade and commerce. These things told first of all on trade capital, which gradually melted away. As to the partial recovery of trade during the last two years, for the first time in the experience of living men a recovery of trade which brought employment to the working classes had been unaccompanied by a profit to the employers, such as would strengthen them and enable them to bear occasional pressure. The effects of these things were felt in the depreciation of the value, not only of mills and warehouses, but also of houses and shops in centres of industry. These were certainly indications of the decay of national resources and prosperity. It was, therefore, not surprising that there was a cry for Protection, not only from manufacturing communities and bodies of workmen, but also, and especially, from those engaged in the cultivation of the soil. With Protection he had not the smallest sympathy. He did not believe that the protection of any industry in this country could be of the slightest eventual benefit to that industry, while he held that it must be a disadvantage to the country at large. He had heard Protection demanded by staunch Liberals, and large numbers of Liberal working men and tradesmen held Fair Trade principles strongly. He was not surprised at the demands coming from these quarters. The production of wheat had been considered for generations by owners, occupiers, and labourers to be a safe and firm industry. But if any proposal were made for direct Protection, such as a 4s. or 5s. duty on imported corn, he should be obliged to

      1877
      vote against it. He was sure it was not Protection that could meet such a state of things. Still, we could not silence those who made the demand, nor suppress the conviction that the prosperity of the country was seriously imperilled. We could not get rid of the impression that it was much more risky than it used to be to put capital into our leading industries. We could not scold complainants into silence by telling them there was nothing the matter with them, nor re-assure them by the conclusions which Mr. Giffen drew from the Trade Returns. It might be that those with large foreign investments were saving money, that others were making large profits on our imports, and yet that there was a rapid diminution in the wealth of the owners of fixed property in this country. It seemed to him most unfair to charge those who proposed to put a duty on foreign manufactures only for the purpose of putting pressure on those who excluded our own with entertaining a desire for Protection. Nothing could be more legitimate than to impose a duty of 10 per cent, at the same time giving notice that it would be abolished in the case of those countries that admitted our goods. It would be an absolute offer of Free Trade in manufactures. Of course, by such a proposal we could not act on the United States or Russia; but it was good in its own limited area—as, for instance, between us and Belgium or France, whose manufactures we received, while they refused to receive ours on equal terms. No doubt it was more difficult to deal with the United States and Russia, from which we received large supplies of food and raw materials. He was not one of the Council of the National Fair Trade League, nor was he responsible for their programme; but he believed that all Commercial Treaties with foreign countries or our own Colonies should absolutely cease and never be renewed. But that would not preclude arrangements for the protection of mutual interests by Conventions. We ought to abandon all attempts to make any tariff bargains with any foreign country, colony, or dependency. We ought to impose a duty upon articles of food imported from foreign countries, perfectly uniform in character, not for the purpose of Retaliation or Protection, but simply to control the future course of our capital, and develop the resources
      1878
      of the Empire. In one of his speeches at Leeds the Prime Minister had spoken of the possibility of America prospering under a system of Protection. For his own part, he believed that Protection was always hostile to the interests of the country that adopted it; but the right hon. Gentleman had said that America was capable of flourishing under such conditions, because she had an incomparable field of commerce and exchange within her own limits. That was to a great extent true, and British statesmen would find that the greatest mistake they could commit was to withdraw all commercial preference from the component parts of our own Empire. It was much to be regretted that our Empire had not been so drawn together as to make all our great Colonies members of its free exchange, just as California and Texas, Minnesota and Florida, Pennsylvania and New England all shared the general commercial policy of the United States. The consolidation of the United States had been maintained 20 years ago by a fearful Civil War; but the unity of the interests that, after all, kept the States together was owing to the fact that the country could, to a great extent, subsist on its own internal commerce; and the same bond of commerce might easily be made to unite the parts of our own Empire. The greatest sacrifice we had ever been called upon to make was a very small one, and was merely the imposition of a trifling duty on foreign food, in order to drive the industry of producing it into the hands of our Colonial fellow-countrymen. It would be said, however, that our Colonies were more Protectionist even than foreign countries, and that we had no control over them. True, many of them had adopted a protective policy; but they had been thrown into the arms of Protection by the system adopted by the Mother Country, which would have the result, if it were persisted in, of forcing Canada into a Tariff like that of the United States. Had a different policy been adopted, and had the tie that bound the Colonies to the Mother Country been more satisfactorily recognized, there would have been little or no difficulty in maintaining the complete freedom of Colonial exchange and commerce. By the word "freedom" he did not mean that the Colonies would never have imposed revenue duties, but that

      1879
      such heavy duties would not have been levied as other countries—the United States, for example—placed upon the productions of this country. The comparative value to England of the foreign and the Colonial trade was shown by the following figures:—During the five years 1876 to 1880, inclusive, the United States, with 50,000,000 of people, had taken from us British manufactured goods to the value of 7s. 11d. per head of the population; Australia, with 3,000,000 of people, took goods to the value of £5 19 s. 7d. per head; Canada and Newfoundland, with 4,000,000 of people, to the value of £1 12 s. 6d. per head; Russia, with 80,000,000, to the value of 11 s. 6d. per head; the West Indies, with a population of 1,330,000, to the value of £2 1s. 3d. per head; and the Cape Colony and Natal, with a population of 1,085,000, to the value of £ 4 19 s. 7d. per head. That showed that we ought not to look merely to the absence of Free Trade, but also to the practical effect of the duties levied by our Colonies on our manufactures, as compared with the duties levied by countries like the United States; and that, instead of enforcing on our Colonies the abandonment of all duties, we ought to encourage them to find in their union with the Mother Country a continual advantage from the enjoyment of a comparatively free exchange, which should bind them for ever to this country. With those views he had never advocated the policy of dragging the Colonies into Free Trade, and had never held that it was our duty to make trade conventions with them. If that had been the commercial policy of the country, one of its earliest results would have been seen in the case of Canada. For 14 or 15 years Canada, living near a great Protectionist neighbour, had had the greatest difficulties to contend with. She had been imposing duties of 20 percent on our manufactures, while the United States had been imposing 60 per cent on the same manufactures. The immediate consequence had been that if he sent £100 worth of goods to the United States of America, the duty of 60 per cent levied on them raised the price of them for internal circulation to £160; while, if he sent an equal £100 worth of goods to Canada, the duty of 20 per cent would raise the price for internal circulation in that country to
      1880
      £120. The effect of that was to raise the rate of wages relatively to the United States as compared with Canada, and also to raise the inducements for embarking capital in the United States as compared with Canada, depriving the latter of the advantage to which, as a child of this Empire, she was entitled. He believed that it was in order to draw capital and enterprize back to their proper channel that Canada had felt herself compelled to adopt the policy she had entered upon; and he had no doubt that the adoption of such a policy as he had described was the only course that could prevent the relative decay of our Colonies as compared with the progress of nations like the United States. There were two alternatives open to a people in the position occupied by the Canadians—either to approximate their Tariff to that of the United States and to seek a commercial union with them on a protective basis, or to seek from the Mother Country such a preference for their productions as would give proper inducements for capital and enterprize within our own Empire. We were driving Canada and our other Colonies into the worst of those alternatives; and we must not, therefore, be surprised if Canada, Victoria, and our other leading Colonies had adopted a policy which we greatly regretted. He apologized for detaining the House so long; but he had been associated with that movement, and he was expected to declare his convictions in regard to it frankly in that House as elsewhere. He entirely repudiated the charge which he much regretted that the Prime Minister had brought against him and other Gentlemen holding similar opinions, that they had said one thing in the manufacturing districts and another thing in the agricultural districts. From the first moment when the convictions that he entertained found a place in his mind he had frankly declared them on all occasions. He had declared them, in the first place, to great bodies of working men in his native county of Lancashire. He had not scrupled from the first to tell them he believed that a small duty upon foreign food was the only remedy for the ills they had to meet; and he had never addressed an important meeting—and in Lancashire he had addressed many—of working men who had not been completely and enthusiastically in

      1881
      favour of that policy. ["Oh!"] He should be delighted to meet any hon. Gentleman who thought that was an over-statement on any platform he chose in any town in Lancashire. It was said that movement was a spasmodic one, and that it was waning. It had, on the contrary, been growing for four, five, or six years past. It was never growing more surely and steadily than at this moment. They had sought quietly and patiently, and by legitimate means, to make their opinions known, and to advocate the policy which they believed would be for the advantage of all classes of the community. The thought that there had been something spasmodic in the movement on that matter might possibly be attributed to events which took place last year, and which were supposed to be the outcome of that movement. He said that the circumstances of his own election—and he thought it had been proved since in the election of his right hon. Colleague (Mr. Raikes)—had nothing to do with the Fair Trade question. The discussion of that question had been forced upon him in that contest. He had taken up the challenge gladly; and the people certainly gave an unmistakable answer. But they would, he believed, have given the same answer if the Fair Trade controversy had never entered into the matter. In other parts of the country there were evidences of the continual spread of those principles. He received the other day a report of the proceedings of a debating society at Dumfries. That society consisted of intelligent men belonging to both political Parties in the place. During last summer the question of Fair Trade was discussed in that society, when only 24 members recorded their votes in its favour. The same question was debated a week or two ago, and it was carried by 97 to 82. He could mention a number of facts of a similar character. Whatever hon. Gentlemen opposite might think, they would have to lay their account with the fact that that movement had firmly rooted itself in the minds of large masses of the people; that it was spreading, and would continue to spread; that there was only one circumstance that would deliver them from having to meet it and make terms with it, and that was the possibility that foreign nations might completely reverse their policy; that
      1882
      those things long ago predicted by hon. Gentlemen opposite should begin to show some signs of fulfilment, and that foreign nations should distinctly commence to reduce the duties they imposed upon our productions, and thus relieve our workmen and their employers from those fears and anxieties in regard to the fate of their industries which had created the movement of which he had been speaking.
      MR. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not complain, Sir, of the length of the speech of the hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Ecroyd). On the contrary, as the head of an organization which has had this subject under consideration, the hon. Member's right to lay his views fully before the House must be admitted. I will say, further, that the fuller the hon. Member stated his views and the plainer the exposition of his principles, the better it is for those who have to meet him in fair discussion. I am grateful, among other things, to the hon. Member for the light which he has thrown upon what I must call the question of definition. The House has learnt from the hon. Member that the question whether a man is a Protectionist or not depends entirely upon his motive at the time. It is not a question of fact; but it is a question of intention; and if a man comes to this House and proposes to levy a 5s. duty on corn to protect the farmer, he would be a Protectionist; but if another man comes down and proposes to lay the same duty on foreign corn, and said, in the words of the hon. Member, that he did it "quietly and peacefully, in order to determine the flow of capital and labour by driving industry to the Colonies," and although the same results may follow, although the action is similar and the conditions are identical, in the one case it is to be called "Protection," while in the other the name of "Protection" is to be indignantly repudiated. That seems to be a question beyond ordinary comprehension. It is a problem in casuistry rather than a question of practical politics. The hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ritchie), with his usual skill, has devised a Resolution so vague and indefinite, that it has caught very large fish indeed; and it has obtained the support of several hon. Gentlemen who profess opposite and inconsistent opinions. I have heard that the right

      1883
      hon. Baronet the Leader of the Opposition and other right hon. Gentlemen have promised their support to this Resolution. I admit that a Resolution for a Committee of Inquiry is always a specious proposal; but I shall state the objections to it in the words of the Leader of the Opposition himself. Two years ago—on the 13th of February, 1880—when the right hon. Baronet was the Leader of the House, there was a debate upon a Resolution proposed by Mr. Wheelhouse, then one of the Members for Leeds, almost identical in terms with the Resolution now under consideration; and to that Resolution, two years ago, the right hon. Baronet gave a most determined opposition. The right hon. Baronet said—
      "I wish distinctly to say, on the part of the Government, that they, of course, recognize the importance of the question; but, on the other hand, they think it would be wrong, by any doubtful proceeding, especially if countenanced by them, to raise a false idea, or to produce a wrong impression as to their commercial policy. …The appointment of such a Committee would seem to imply a change of opinion on the part of the Government which I think would be injurious."—[3 Hansard, ccl. 619.]
      Now, if the right hon. Baronet is going to speak this evening, I hope he will inform the House what has happened since 1880 which makes him ready to countenance this doubtful, proceeding, which, two years ago, he thought would be injurious? An inquiry of the kind proposed would be necessarily one-sided and incomplete; and I think, before it is granted, we ought to know what is the object which the promoters have in view, and to what change in the fiscal conditions they expect this inquiry to lead. I find among those who support the Motion the greatest possible divergence of opinion. It appears, if the inquiry is to be an efficient inquiry, we must go into Foreign Tariffs, in order to found thereupon some alteration in our own Tariff. But, then, what alteration? The hon. Gentleman the Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ritchie) tells us he is opposed to anything in the nature of Protection. Every hon. Member opposite said so. [Mr. NEWDEGATE: NO.] I am glad to see the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate) in his place. If he had spoken he would have called things by their right names. The hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Ecroyd) proposes to go much further than
      1884
      the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ritchie). He wishes for this inquiry in order to show the necessity for levying a moderate duty of 10 percent on manufactures and on food. The hon. and learned Member for West Staffordshire (Mr. Staveley Hill), on the other hand, wishes to levy a duty upon raw materials and manufactures; but he expressly excludes food, which the hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Ecroyd) proposes to tax. They have thus entirely inconsistent proposals, which, however, amount to a practical reversal of the policy of this country for 40 years past, and a return to the policy of Protection. We have been told, both by the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ritchie) and by the hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Ecroyd), that their proposals are only for temporary change, and that they anticipate, as the result, that foreign nations will be brought to their senses, and that the duties they now put on will be removed.
      MR. ECROYD: I only spoke with regard to the duty levied on foreign food.
      MR. CHAMBERLAIN: The hon. and learned Member for West Staffordshire (Mr. Staveley Hill), at all events, stated most distinctly that his proposal was only to levy these taxes as a matter of temporary emergency, and until other nations had been brought to their senses. I wish to point out that it was upon similar promises that the Protective Tariff of the United States was introduced. It was to be a temporary measure, and was to stimulate the infant industries of the country. But, although those industries have grown to manhood and have been sufficiently stimulated, we do not find the duties removed. On the contrary, they have gone on from bad to worse, increasing the duties from year to year; and the artificially-created industries have become such a power in the State that it has been found almost impossible to deal with them. I should like to carry my reference to the United States a little further. The United States is, undoubtedly, the worst case of a hostile Tariff with which we have to deal, and I would test the case now made for an inquiry by reference to it. What kind of information should we be able to obtain, and what advantage would the inquiry give us? I think it would be found that the facts of the case are

      1885
      already within our knowledge, and that it is only the arguments which are the subjects of discussion. The first fact that would be brought out in the inquiry would be that 90 per cent of the United States exports are food and raw materials, which are not the subject of prohibitive Tariffs at all. It follows from that, and is consequent upon it, that the foreign trade in manufactures has been practically annihilated; and the competition of American manufacturers in neutral markets is practically nothing at all. Let us consider the case of the special industries to which reference has been made. In the case of cotton the raw material is extremely bulky and costly in transit, and the Americans have the raw material. In spite of that, and of the ingenuity of the population, which ought to enable them to compete with any foreign country, not only in their own supply, but in the supply of the neutral markets, and in spite of their imposing duties of from 30 to 60 per cent, their total export of cotton manufactures is less than £2,000,000 sterling. Yet, not withstanding what is called our one Sided Free Trade, this country exports £70,000,000 sterling, of which £3,500,000 go to the United States, while they send us only £751,000. Then, in the case of wool, America has not the same advantages that she has in respect to cotton; but she is, at least, on an equal footing. The woollen industries have been specially protected by duties of from 40 to 100 per cent. What has been the result? The total export of woollen manufactures from the United States is £45,000, while that from the United Kingdom is £20,000,000, and that at a time of great depression. What is still more striking is this—that the very industry which is specially protected by enormous duties should only export £45,000 worth of goods in the year, while the woollen imports into the United States from different countries during the year amounted to £11,000,000 sterling. In the case of iron and steel manufactures the duties vary from 40 to 60 per cent. The American export of these manufactures of all kinds is still less than £3,000,000 sterling, while this country exports nearly £30,000,000 sterling, of which £10,000,000 are sent to the United States. We find, therefore, in the case of the protected industries, that protection is accompanied by an entire absence
      1886
      of anything like an important foreign trade. On the other hand, the free industries of this Kingdom find their prosperity largely in their enormous exports. But I think a more startling illustration of the effect of a Tariff is to be found in the influence of the protective duties of the United States, not on the interests specially protected, but on the connected industries. I have one or two illustrations which I will venture to read to the House; although I am afraid of troubling them too long. The first case is the case of the boot and shoe trade of the United States. The boot and shoe trade is not, I am informed, a largely protected interest; but a heavy duty of from 15 to 25 per cent, has been placed upon leather. The effect upon the connected boot and shoe industry has been that the export has fallen from $1,329,000 in 1863 to 8475,000 in 1869, and it has never increased since. On the other hand, in the United Kingdom, I find that the export of boots and shoes has risen from £1,406,000 in 1860 to £1,447,000 in 1870, and that sum has increased to £1,656,000 in 1880. Well, but the most striking case of all is an illustration which has already been referred to by my lion. Friend the Member for Oxford shire (Mr. Cartwright)—the case of the shipping trade of the United States. It is a case which is in everybody's mind, and the facts are so remarkable that I will venture to quote them to the House. So long as ships were built almost exclusively of wood, the shipping trade of the United States progressed in even a more rapid ratio than that of the United Kingdom. The United States, having an enormous seaboard and an active, courageous population, there was nothing to prevent them from being the greatest carrying nation in the world, except their protective system. On iron and every article that entered into the construction of a ship, and upon the ship itself, there is a duty so onerous that the carrying trade of the world has passed away from America and has come to this country. The figures are as follows:—In the first place, I find the value of exports and imports carried in American vessels—I am dealing with the American trade, and not the general trade—fell from $344,000,000 in 1871 to $273,000,000 in 1880—that is to say, there was a fall of—71,000,000 in nine

      1887
      years. At the same time, the amount carried in foreign bottoms rose from $739,000,000 to $1,298,000,000, or an increase of $559,000,000. I find, also, that the building of American shipping, which was 272,000 tons annually in 1850, had remained stationary in 1870, and was still only 276,000 tons; while in 1880, 10 years later, it had fallen to 157,000 tons. At the same time, the annual tonnage building of English shipping has increased from 226,000 to 473,000—that is to say, the tonnage of English shipping built annually has more than doubled in the time during which the tonnage of shipping built in America has been diminished by nearly one-half. Well, I believe that the Americans are beginning to see—although at present perhaps slowly, and perhaps dimly—the effect of this foolish policy upon their own prosperity. My attention was called the other day to a speech delivered in the United States Senate by Senator Coke, of Texas, which shows that some, at all events, of the Representatives of the people are fully aware of the injury done by this protective policy. He said—
      "The commerce of no country in the world is so hampered, so shackled, so obstructed by legislation in the interest of the few to the injury of the mass, as in this boasted land of equal rights. … The Tariff under which, for 20 years past, we have lived is the most monstrous system of taxation in its burdens upon the great body of the people, and its bounties to a small percentage of the whole, that this country, in all its history, and, I believe I may add, any other country, has ever known."
      What is the conclusion to be drawn from the facts that I have laid before you? I do not like to speak dogmatically on matters of this sort, because there are so many considerations that one would be afraid to arrive at too hasty a conclusion. But it certainly appears to me that what hon. Gentlemen opposite call our present one-sided Free Trade is absolutely the very best that can be devised with regard to British interests and the interests of British trade. I believe the Free Traders are perfectly right in saying, as they do, from a cosmopolitan point of view, that universal Free Trade would be the best possible thing for the world at large; but I also believe that whenever that consummation is reached, if America, especially, becomes a Free Trade nation
      1888
      and gets rid of the shackles which now hamper her industry and her commerce, her trade will experience such a development that she will become a more formidable competitor to our manufacturing industry than we have ever hitherto experienced. I am convinced that if there were not an actual diminution in our trade, there would, at all events, be such a displacement of particular industries as must necessarily be attended by a great deal of suffering and loss. I proceed now to consider what is the nature and what is the ground for the proposal to which, we learn, this inquiry is to lead us. Well, I say, in the first place, that we ought really to have some solid, substantial reason given for any change at all. And I want to know where is the proof of such a depression in trade, such a disturbance of industry, as would justify any change in our present system? I think we may dismiss individual cases of small importance. And I say again that, speaking generally, the great branches of our industry—always excepting the agricultural interest—are in a satisfactory condition. The hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ritchie) founds his Motion upon the following statement. He said, in the first place, that exports have increased recently in volume, but not in prices. I suppose the hon. Member meant not in value. Well, that is an admission which I think is absolutely inconsistent with his contention that trade had been going to the bad during the last five years. If the volume of our exports, the extent of our production, has been increasing during the whole of that period—and that I believe is the case—I do not think our manufacturers have much to complain of. The hon. Member proceeded to comment with some severity upon a Paper, written by Mr. Giffen, which has been presented, by the Board of Trade. That Paper is a continuation of Papers which have been presented on two several occasions, in precisely the same form, in the time of the late Government. In that Paper Mr. Giffen points out that there has been a considerable fall in the value of the raw materials of our principal industries; and he shows that this fall accounts for a reduction in the value of our exports, and does not involve necessarily a corresponding loss on the part of our manufacturers. Well, that is a

      1889
      fact which I should have thought was capable of mathematical demonstration. Let us take the case of cotton. The hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ritchie) says that the raw material to the total cost of cotton is as 7d. to 1s. For the sake of argument, let us assume that it is half-and-half. Then suppose that our exports of raw cotton amounted to £1,000,000 sterling, £500,000 of that sum is a mere re-export of raw material, and it is only the remaining moiety which is the element of profit to the manufacturer and of advantage to this country. Now, supposing, what has actually happened, that the price of raw cotton is diminished by 40 per cent, then the raw material would cost £300,000 instead of £500,000; and if the exports should fall to £800,000, £300,000 of that sum would be attributable to raw material and £500,000 would remain—precisely the same sum as remains from the larger Return—and the element of profit to the manufacturer and the result to the country would be the same in both cases, although the total value of the exports would have been reduced by 20 per cent. Upon the question of exports I may say that such reduction as has occurred in exports is due wholly to a fall in prices, largely, if not entirely, to a fall in the value of raw material, and it does not represent any corresponding loss to the country. The second point made by the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets has reference to the Income Tax. I have never denied that the profits of trade have been less lately than in times of extraordinary inflation, and I would go with the hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Ecroyd) so far as to say that perhaps the reduction is not fully represented by the Income Tax returns, which are based on the average of three years. But what I think is sufficiently shown by other figures is that the depression of trade, of which, we have all been complaining, is a depression which has hit the rich rather than the poor, and which has reduced the large and excessive profits, which were made in times of inflation, without interfering with the general prosperity or the general welfare of the country. The next statement made by the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ritchie) was that the consumption of articles of necessity has decreased. But in order to show any
      1890
      ground for such a statement the hon. Member had to pick and choose his figures in a way that is hardly justified by the facts of the case. The hon. Member said that the consumption of coffee has decreased. Well, that is perfectly true; there has been a change of taste, and, for some reason or other, the consumption of coffee has declined from 1.08 lb. per head, in 1840, to 92 in 1880. But we have made up, and more than made up, the decrease, by an enormous increase in the consumption of tea, and by a very remarkable increase in the consumption of cocoa. Between 1870 and 1880 the consumption of cocoa increased 50 per cent per head of the population, and the consumption of tea has increased steadily from l·22 lb. per head of the population, in 1840, to 4·70 lb. per head in 1879; and the fall to which the hon. Member referred was a fall of ·11 in 1880, when the consumption was 4·59 lb., still being a consumption nearly four times as great as that of the year 1840.
      MR. RITCHIE: There has been a fall in the consumption every year since 1877.
      MR. CHAMBERLAIN: I can assure the hon. Member that he is quite mistaken. In 1875 it was 4·44; in 1876 it was 4·50; in 1877 it was 4·52; in 1878, 4·66; in 1879, 4·70; and in l880 there was the small fall to which I have referred—namely, down to 4·59. The consumption of tobacco has risen steadily in the same way between 1840 and 1877, from ·86 lb. in the first of those two years to 1·49 lb. in the latter. Afterwards there came a slight fall. And what was the reason of that fall? I think the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ritchie) has good reason to know. It was due to the action of the late Government in imposing a considerable increase of duty, which had the strenuous opposition of the hon. Member. In consequence of that change the consumption decreased from 1·49 lb., in 1877, to 1·43 lb. in 1880. The consumption of sugar and spirits has enormously increased, and the importation of other articles of food has enormously increased also. The last statement made by the hon. Member was based upon the returns of the Railway Companies; and in order to bring forward a favourable case, the hon. Member said the rates per head, per train mile, had decreased with-

      1891
      in the last few years. Well, that is so. No doubt the receipts per train mile have been reduced; but why? In the first place, because there has been a reduction of rates on the whole; and in the second, what is still more important, because the lines which have been opened of late years have been feeders and branch lines, and it is impossible that the traffic upon them could be equal to the average traffic upon the great main lines of the country. When, however, the total receipts from the traffic are examined a very different story is disclosed. The total traffic receipts in 1869 were£41,000,000; in l880, £61,958,000; and in 1881, though the official figures are not yet made up, they are about £64,338,000; and they are still increasing every month. If we take the returns of third-class railway traffic we shall find that the results are even more striking, and still more interesting, as illustrating the condition of the working classes. The receipts from third-class passengers have increased rapidly and continuously from £7,000,000 a-year, in 1869, to £15,000,000 in 1880. Thus in 11 years the travelling expenses of the poorer classes of the country have increased something like 115 per cent. There is only one other evidence of prosperity which I would offer to the House; but that at also is one which is very striking. It is to be found in the entrances and clearances of shipping at ports in the United Kingdom, which afford a more accurate indication of the prosperity and business of the country than even the export or import statistics themselves, in dealing with which there are many causes of error, such as the question of prices and the way in which values are computed. The comparison of import and export values, taking one year with another, may sometimes, from changes of price, be misleading, and such statistics must be used with care. The entrances and clearances of shipping, however, are not open to the same objection. I find that between 1870 and 1880—a period of 10 years—they have increased from 36,600,000 tons to 58,700,000—that is to say that there has been an increase in our foreign export and import trade, as shown by the entrances and clearances of shipping, of 60 per cent in that short period. It is perfectly clear, from these figures, that the volume of our trade has largely increased; and although it may
      1892
      not be quite as profitable, compared with what it has been in former times, still it would be absurd and foolish to suppose that it was altogether unprofitable. It may well be thought that our manufacturers may for a time go on producing at a small profit, or even at a slight loss, in order to keep their machinery going; but they certainly would not go on increasing and multiplying their works and investing additional capital in them, unless they saw their way to a remunerative result. Let us test the question another way. Looking at the great seats of industry, if there is anything like stagnation of trade it would be shown in the decline of their population and in the falling-off of their prosperity. What are the facts with regard to them? According to the Census Returns, between 1870 and 1880 the population of Birmingham increased from 343,000 to 400,000; and of Liverpool, from 463,000 to 525,000; Manchester has only slightly increased, because the limits of the borough are circumscribed, and as the ground is covered with houses already no large increase is possible. But Salford, in which a large proportion of the population of Manchester resides, has increased from 124,000 to 176,000; Bristol, from 182,000 to 206,000; Leeds, from 259,000 to 309,000; Leicester, from 95,000 to 122,000; and Nottingham, which is the most remarkable case of all, has increased from 129,000 to 186,000. I have had the curiosity to inquire into the condition of Coventry, which has been quoted as an illustration of a town that has been utterly ruined by Free Trade, and I find that in the same period the population of the Parliamentary borough has increased from 41,000 to 47,000. It therefore appears that even that town has recently, at all events, got over the blow it received through a Free Trade policy. But the increase of population is not the only index to the prosperity of a borough; and taking the rateable value of property, which largely consists of mills and other productive works, in similar boroughs, I find that between the years 1872 and 1879 the rateable value of property in Birmingham has increased from £1,229,000 to £1,454,000; Liverpool has increased from £2,768,000 to £3,211,000; of Manchester, from £ 1,805,000 to £2,296,000; of Bristol, from £719,000 to £838,000; and of

      1893
      Leeds, from £807,000 to £1,083,000. Then, I ask, where is the proof of depression? Where is the proof of stagnation in the figures I have read to the House? If we go further a field and take the newer seats of industry, like Barrow and Middlesborough, the proportionate increase has been much greater. But, whatever may have been our own progress, we are told that we ought still to he discontented because other countries have made still greater progress. That is a state of things which Fair Traders are totally unable to see with satisfaction. Now, 'I am very doubtful whether any proof whatever has been given that any other country has done as well during the last 10 years as we have. But even if other countries have progressed more than we have, I should have said that that proved nothing either for or against Protection; because in dealing with this matter it must be borne in mind what a multiplicity of factors we have to take into consideration in estimating the relative progress of foreign nations compared with our own. We should have to take into account the increase of population, the development of the means of communication, and many other matters besides the effect of fiscal regulations. A country in which the population is greatly increasing is likely to increase its products more rapidly than a country in which the population is stationary. Again, if, at the period which we select for our comparison, one country is without an efficient means of communication, and these have been subsequently supplied, we should expect the increase to be greater than in an older country where such means of communication have existed all along. We must consider also such special circumstances as war, famine, bad harvests, and other things which affect trade at particular times and in particular countries. Lastly, we have to take into account—and this is of particular importance in considering the difference which a calculation of percentages apparently shows—the initial condition of the country with which you make your comparison. In other words, if you were comparing a country with a trade of £1,000,000 and a country with a trade of £10,000,000, and both had increased their trade by the amount, say, of £10,000,000, it is quite clear that
      1894
      the increase in both cases is the same; but, calculated by percentages, the proportion of increase in the one case is 1,000 per cent, and in the other only 100 per cent. The increase is the same in amount in both cases; but the proportion in the one case is 10 times as great as it is in the other. I would gladly ask the House to listen to a comparison of the increase of the trade of this country with that of various other countries; but I feel compelled to confine myself to two. I will first take the case of France. The prosperity of France is particularly annoying to some hon. Gentlemen opposite, having regard to the negotiations for the old Commercial Treaty. Now, I find that the French exports—and I am making a concession to hon. Members opposite in dealing only with exports, for I hold that the true measure of a country's prosperity is to take both her exports and imports—during the period between the years 1850 and 1880 increased from £43,000,000 to £139,000,000, or an increase of 223 per cent. The English exports increased during the same period from £71,000,000 to £223,000,000, or an increase of 214 per cent. It therefore appears that the percentage increase in the exports of both countries has been about the same, or slightly to the advantage of France; but if we were to add the increase in what has been called our "invisible exports"—that is, in freight and shipping charges, which amounts to a considerable sum, the difference would be still less. But if you take amounts, which I contend to be the proper course, instead of percentages, the advantage is on the side of England, for while the increase in the French exports only amounted to £96,000,000 the increase in the English exports amounted to £152,000,000—that is to say that the English exports increased by more than 50 per cent more rapidly than the French exports. But, as I have stated, in all of these cases certain other circumstances have also to be taken into account in estimating the value of these figures. In the case of France the payment of the French War Indemnity has largely increased the volume of exports sent out by that country. The Indemnity had to be paid partly in bullion, but chiefly in exports, and it told upon the trade of France in the few years which immediately followed the war. The hon. Member

      1895
      for West Staffordshire (Mr. Staveley Hill) has used an extraordinary argument. He admitted that a large increase of exports from Trance into Germany resulted from the payment of the War Indemnity; but he considered that this meant a diminution of employment to a large portion of the German nation, and was, therefore, a disastrous thing—in other words, he contended that the payment of £200,000,000 was a bad thing for Germany. It followed, therefore, that its effect upon France was to stimulate employment and to encourage industry there, and that it would be a good thing for any nation to pay a tribute of £200,000,000, and a bad thing to be forced to receive it. There is also another matter—namely, the fact that about the same time the Provinces of Alsace and Lorraine became separated from the French Empire, and all goods passing thither were thenceforward transferred from the home trade account to the export account. If these two circumstances are borne in mind, it will add still further to the satisfaction with which we must regard the increased exports of this country, as compared with the exports of France. I may also point out, in the case of France, that the period I have chosen for comparison is a period during which their policy, though not of Free Trade, was a policy more liberal than it had been previously, and that that policy has largely contributed to the condition of affairs which I have described. The other case to which I wish to call attention is the case of the United States. That is a country, of course, in which the policy has been more retrograde than that, of any other country. I find in the United States that the increase in the amount of exports has been, in round numbers, from £26,000,000 in 1840 to £170,000,000 in 1880, or 554 per cent, as against an increase in this country from £5l,000,000 in 1840 to £223,000,000 in 1880, being an increase of 338 per cent, the actual increase having been £144,000,000 in the case of America, and £172,000,000 in the case of England. But this amount is altogether exclusive of what Mr. Giffen, in the admirable Paper which he read before the Statistical Society, called the "invisible exports," being the amount gained by our Mercantile Marine
      1896
      in freight and otherwise. That amount is proved, by the most conclusive evidence—by cumulative evidence—to have increased, in the same period, in the case of the United Kingdom, from £20,000,000 to £80,000,000. It will be necessary, therefore, to add a sum of about £60,000,000 to the value of our exports; and, adding that £60,000,000 to the £172,000,000, we shall obtain £232,000,000, which is nearly double the increase in the United States in the same period. There has been no increase whatever in their shipping trade, but rather, on the contrary, a decrease. Then, as to another point, if we take the exports of the United States, not at their amount, but per head of the population, and compare them with the exports per head of the United Kingdom, the advantage will be still more striking in favour of our policy. The exports per head of the United States have risen from £1 ll s. 1d. in 1840 to £3 8,s. 1d. in 1880, while those of the United Kingdom have increased in the same time from £1 18 s. 9d. to £6 9s. 5d. In other words, while the increase in the United States was 119 per cent, in this Kingdom it stands at 234 per cent. We must also take into account, in. dealing with the question, the character of the exports of the United States. They have introduced a protective policy in order to encourage their manufactures; I have already shown with what success. But the total result is this—they exported £17,000,000 of manufactures, against £191,000,000 from this country, of which we sent £24,500,000 to the United States, or more than their total exports altogether. Under these circumstances, whether the House regards the trade of the country absolutely or relatively to the trade of other countries, there is no real ground for alarm, and no cause for the inquiry which the hon. Member proposes. I will now ask permission to examine, for a few minutes, the various proposals which have been made. The first question I have to ask is this—is the food for the country to be taxed? The hon. Member for West Staffordshire (Mr. Staveley Hill) says "No"; the hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Ecroyd) says "Yes." I think it is desirable that those hon. Gentlemen should come to some agreement before supporting the Resolution for inquiry. The hon. Mem-

      1897
      ber for West Staffordshire says, in the Amendment he has put upon the Paper, that duties are to be levied on foreign produce, provided that nothing is done to raise the price or diminish the supply of food. I do not know whether the hon. Member thinks you can tax food without raising its price. I would, at any rate, lay down the axiom, to begin with, that that is impossible, and it is only by increasing the price that the object of the hon. Member for Preston can be achieved, and that you can stimulate the growth and prosperity of our Colonies. The modest proposal he makes would raise the price of homegrown corn also, and the result would be that the British consumer would have to bear a tax of £40,000,000, £14,000,000 of which would go to the Revenue if the foreign importations continued, and £26,000,000 would go, not to the farmer or the labourer—for if anything is proved by the experience of the past, it is that it would go neither to the farmer nor the labourer—but it would go to the landed interest, to enable them to keep up their rents. All I have to say of a proposal of that kind is that it could never be adopted by the country, or if adopted it would be swept away upon the first recurrence of serious distress. But now I want to ask the House to consider whether the proposition of the hon. Member for Preston is a practical proposal on another ground. At the present moment foreign countries supply us with 82½ per cent of the total quantity of food which we import, while the Colonies only send us 17½ per cent of that quantity. If we deduct the amount which comes from Colonies like New South Wales and others, which are practically free trading Colonies, only 5 per cent of our food comes from the self-governing and highly protective Colonies. The total amount of food sent by foreign countries is £138,000,000 sterling. I ask the House, therefore, whether it is possible, or whether it is conceivable, that this enormous transfer can be made? Does the hon. Member believe that these £138,000,000 worth more food can be produced immediately in our Colonies by any artificial process; or does he for one moment believe, on the other hand, that the Colonies, which are now only able to send us £30,000,000 worth of food, will be able to send us £138,000,000 in addition, and take our manufactures to
      1898
      the extent of £138,000,000 in return? I say, in the first instance, that they cannot produce the amount of food required; and then, that they could not take in return our exports to the amount indicated.
      MR. ECROYD: I never said they would be able to do so at once. My proposal was to institute a gradual process.
      MR. CHAMBERLAIN: Well, Sir, the hon. Member for Preston addressed the House for an hour and three quarters; and I certainly supposed at the end of his speech that he had put his views fully before the House. But that, it seems, is not the case. However, if the hon. Member does not think that this transfer could be effected readily with regard to the supply of food for this country from foreign countries to our Colonies, I should like to know very much what we are to do in the interval? If we are to retaliate upon foreign countries by imposing a duty on food imported from those countries into England, as a means of inducing them to alter their Tariffs, and effecting a transfer of the supply of food to the Colonies, I do not see where the food of the country is to come from; because it is impossible that in anything like a reasonable time our Colonies could produce an amount of food at all approaching to the quantity required. But even if they could, at a future period, produce it, they could not possibly accept payment for it in our manufactures. Is it conceivable that the populations of the Australian Colonies—considerably less than the population of London—and others, including Canada, the whole of whose imports from this country put together only amount to a total of £25,000,000 sterling—is it possible that they could take £138,000,000 more? And if they could not do this, look what would happen. I ask the hon. Member's attention particularly to this. If we cannot pay the Colonies for our food supply in manufactures, we must pay for it in bullion, and that would raise the "bogey" which hon. Members so dislike. Gold would be too plentiful in the Colonies, and too scarce in this country, and the consequence would be that the price of corn in the Colonies would soon rise to the price of corn in foreign countries, even with a 10 per cent duty attached. Trade will then go back into its old

      1899
      channels, and the only difference will be that this country will have to pay 10 per cent more all round. If, however, it were conceivable that, after a long series of years, the transfer to the Colonies could be effected, it would be only a transfer of business, and not a transfer that would be wholly to our advantage. Prom whomsoever we buy our food, they must take our goods in return; we cannot pay them in bullion; they must be paid in our manufactures. Foreign countries are now paid by our manufactures, although they will not continue to take our manufactures hereafter, because, upon the terms proposed by the hon. Member for Preston, we cease to find them the means of paying for them. But whereas, ex hypothesi, the Colonies are to produce dearer, and require the additional 10 per cent in order to produce at all, it is clear that they will send us less in return for our goods, and we shall be worse off than we are at the present time. Well, Sir, upon the supposition that we are going to make this extraordinary disturbance in trade which has been suggested by the hon. Member for Preston, I ask what it is supposed will become of the energy and capital of foreign countries now employed in the production of food? Do you suppose it will remain idle? No, Sir; the result will be that this energy and capital will be diverted from its present application, and you will simply have given an impetus to foreign manufactures, and raised up competition in other branches of trade. For my own part, I do not think we can contemplate without apprehension the possibility of a change under which America, which now exports 90 per cent of food, and only 10 per cent of manufactures, could only export 10 per cent of food and 90 per cent of manufactures; yet such would be the effect of the suggestion of the hon. Member for Preston, so far as the United States are concerned. Then there is another assumption which underlies the proposal of the hon. Member, and to which I am inclined to take exception. The hon. Member assumes that the Colonies which now levy protective duties would alter those duties in return for the increased produce which, under the proposed arrangement, we should take from them. But, Sir, I am of opinion that they would do nothing of the sort. At any rate, I am quite sure it would
      1900
      not be worth their while to do so, because the arrangement under which they supply us is only to be a temporary arrangement. As I understand the hon. Member, so soon as any foreign country comes to our terms we are to open our ports to it again. The hon. Member dissents from that. Then his project is one for excluding them, and is a much larger proposal than I had any idea he intended to make to the House. He proposes to exclude all food from the United States, and only to open our market to their manufactures. If the hon. Member thinks that the citizens of the United States are likely to fall in with that arrangement he must consider them much less "cute" than I do. I certainly always supposed that when the object of hon. Members opposite was attained, foreign countries which now imposed Protection were to open their ports, and that we were to open our ports in return. I should like to know what is to become of the English Protection in the Colonies which has been created. I cannot believe it possible that any Colony would allow that it would be of advantage to it to have such artificially created interests ruthlessly destroyed in consequence of some change of policy in a foreign country over which it had not the slightest control. Then I pass from the proposal of the hon. Member for Preston to that of the hon. Member for West Staffordshire, who expressly excludes food from taxation. I will not dwell on the objections which may be raised by the agricultural interest, although I would certainly say that if Protection is to be used at all, that interest has as much claim to it as any other. I cannot conceive how it can be desired to hamper that interest by adding 10 or 20 per cent to the articles required in agricultural business. But assuming that the farmers are taken in by these proposals on the part of their friends, and offer no opposition to them, then the next question I have to ask is—Are our raw materials to be taxed? And again—What are raw materials? The hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Ecroyd) proceeds on the assumption that we have, at the present time, an import of £35,000,000 worth of manufactures, which, according to the arbitrary classification adopted by the Board of Trade for purposes of comparison, is perfectly true. But if the hon.

      1901
      Member looks to the tables which give the details of this classification, he will find that there is hardly one of the articles enumerated which is not the raw material for one trade or another. Take, for instance, tanned leather. That is a raw material of the boot and shoe trade, and comes in free of duty; and to that fact was due the progress which that trade had made in recent times. If the hon. Member treated that as a manufactured article he would ruin the boot and shoe trade; if he treated it as raw material, then he would be forced to reduce this £35,000,000 of manufactures, and so on with other articles, until there would remain only an insignificant sum—certainly not more than one-fifth of the original amount. How, upon this remaining sum of £7,000,000 of bonâ fide manufactures, he is going to raise the revenue which will enable him to offer a serious reduction of the burden, of taxation, for the life of me I cannot understand. I think my hon. Friend the Member for the University of London (Sir John Lubbock) has already dealt with another part of this subject. The hon. Baronet has pointed out with perfect truth that if we are to enter upon this game of Retaliation, it is a game at which two can play, and that we shall play at it at a great disadvantage. Our imports of manufactures and half manufactures are only £35,000,000, while we export £190,000,000, which would leave a balance of £155,000,000 on which we stand to lose in the game of Retaliation; and, therefore, I cannot but regard the proceeding as a very risky one. I may mention that France is the only important case of any foreign country whose export of manufactures to us is greater than our export of manufactures to her; and I wish for a moment to look at the case of France, because it illustrates the error into which hon. Members fall, and are likely to fall, without a knowledge of all the circumstances of the case. Although the export of French manufactures to us is larger than the amount of our manufactures imported into France, yet I believe that a great part of those manufactures which appear in our Returns are manufactures in transit. It is a curious fact in connection with this that the Italian import of our manufactures is much larger than their exports to us; and I am led to believe that there is a sort of triangular trade
      1902
      going on between the three countries—England, France, and Italy; and that Italian silk and wine go first to France, where they are more or less treated, and then come to us as French manufactures, whereas, in reality, they are Italian manufactures, and we pay for them, not in manufactures sent to France, but in manufactures sent to Italy. Any proposal, therefore, for a Tariff upon French goods would not only affect our trade with that country, but would be an interference with our export trade to Italy. Then, Sir, there are other serious objections to a policy of Retaliation. There is the objection that, resulting as it does in the protection of home industries, it destroys all stimulus and competition. That, undoubtedly, is a very serious matter. The hon. Member has referred to the condition of the woollen industries, and especially to the case of Bradford, which affords one of the most striking illustrations of the advantage of our Free Trade policy. Some years ago the French made great improvements in their manufacture of wool, and in consequence substituted articles of better quality and more pleasing appearance than the English goods, and the woollen trade in this country suffered. What would have happened in the absence of the policy of Free Trade which the country adopted? The English manufacturers would have had no stimulus to the improvement of their goods, and the English manufacture of to-day would have been the same as it was 25 years ago. But under the policy of Free Trade the English manufacturers have been able to look the matter in the face; they have altered their process of manufacture, and they are now competing successfully with the manufacturers of France. I was told by an English manufacturer the other day that his orders were larger than he ever recollected them to be, and that he, at least, was perfectly satisfied with the present condition of the woollen trade. Another illustration was to be found in the case of the edge-tool trade of Birmingham, which was at one time almost destroyed by competition from America. It was not that the goods were cheaper, but American makers had discovered what was the best form of edged tools for various purposes; and I must say that our manufacturers were very slow to adopt these improvements, and some-

      1903
      what conservative in their objections. However, in the face of this competition with the English manufacture, Birmingham is now producing articles which are better in quality and cheaper in price than the American goods, and which are now successfully competing with them in Australia and other Colonies. Finally, Retaliation, Compensation, or Protection—by whatever name it is known—must have the effect of creating weak interests, which will have afterwards to be abandoned, and which will, in consequence, give rise to great suffering and loss. Sir, I ask the House to meet this Motion with a negative. Had it been possible, I should have desired the Amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Oxfordshire to be accepted; but, as that Amendment cannot be put, I hope the House will vote on the Main Question, that you, Sir, "do now leave the Chair." I express that hope upon the ground that the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ritchie) has made out no case. The condition of trade is not unsatisfactory. It is, I believe, in a state of growing prosperity. The temporary depression from which it suffered has passed away; and it has been said truly that this improved condition of things has been coincident with the advent to power of a Liberal Ministry. If hon. Gentlemen opposite are successful in their endeavours to bring about a change of Government, perhaps the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets will in the course of a few years have a much better foundation for such a Motion as this than he has at present. I remember quoting, in reference to this matter, a conversation reported to me three or four years ago, in the time of the late Government, which I might be allowed to mention once more to the House. A friend of mine was talking to a merchant in Birmingham, who happens to a Conservative, and this gentleman was expressing his alarm at the proceedings of the Radicals, and gave his idea of the evil results which would follow if my right hon. Friend (Mr. Gladstone) should ever again assume the reins of Office. My friend, out of mere curiosity, wound up by saying—"Well, but if it should happen that Mr. Gladstone should be Prime Minister, would you leave the country, or what would you do?" and thereupon this gentleman, whose candour overcame
      1904
      his Conservatism for a time, said—"Well, to tell you the truth, I should buy all the copper I could lay my hands on, and hold for a rise." Well, I really do not know, Sir, whether that gentleman carried out his intention; but all I can say is that if he has done so I believe he will have no cause whatever to regret it, because the price of copper has risen, and the demand for it has increased. The price of almost every article of our manufacture has also risen, and the demand increased. In the second place; I ask the House to reject the Motion of the hon. Member, because it appears to me to be undoubtedly a retrograde step in the direction of a reversal of that policy under which the prosperity of the country has so greatly increased, and its resources have been so enormously developed; under which wages have risen; under which the necessaries of life have been cheaper, which has added to the comfort of all classes of the people, which has, above all, removed just causes of discontent, and has done much to settle on a secure basis the foundations of settled government, and of social order.
      SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: Mr. Speaker, I will detain the House a very few minutes; but I find it necessary, of course, to rise after the special appeal which has been addressed to me by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade. Sir, I must, in the first place, remind the House what is the question before us. The question which is actually before us is that which is raised by my hon. Friend the Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ritchie), who asks that—
      "A Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the effects which the Tariffs in force in Foreign Countries have upon the principal branches of British Trade and Commerce, and into the possibility of removing, by Legislation or otherwise, any impediment to a fuller development of the manufacturing and commercial industry of the United Kingdom."
      I venture to say that that demand, supported as it is by the very temperate and very well delivered speech of my hon. Friend, is one which we ought to consider well before rejecting it. The right hon. Gentleman opposite says he can hardly understand how I could support or accept such a proposal as this, consistently with what I said when,

      1905
      two years ago, Mr. Wheelhouse made a proposition for a Select Committee on the same subject. On that occasion I certainly did say—speaking on behalf of the then Government—that we could not assent to that proposal, because it might give a wrong impression and produce a false idea as to our commercial policy. Well, Sir, the right hon. Gentleman says—"How do you consider that circumstances differ on the present occasion from what they were then?" I say, in the first place, there is the broadest possible distinction between the proposal made by Mr. "Wheelhouse, and still more the speech by which that proposal was supported, and the proposal and speech of my hon. Friend the Member for the Tower Hamlets. The Motion of Mr. Wheelhouse was for a Committee
      "To consider the Commercial Relations at present existing between England and Foreign Nations, especially with regard to the import of Manufactured Goods from Abroad, as well as the effect caused by our system of one-sided so-called Free Trade, with a view (if possible) of ameliorating the condition of the wage classes of the country."—[3 Hansard, ccl. 604.]
      And every word of the speech of Mr. Wheelhouse was directly in favour of Protection. My hon. Friend has taken an entirely different line. He has drawn attention to certain points which I will refer to in another moment, and he has asked for a Committee which would do something very different from that which Mr. Wheelhouse proposed. But I do not rest the case simply upon the difference between the Motions of Mr. Wheelhouse and my hon. Friend. We are asked what has happened since then? Why, two things have happened. One of those things is a speech that was made by the Prime Minister himself last year, and the other is the result of the negotiations respecting the French Treaty. The House can hardly have forgotten the speech that was made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the 4th of April, in moving his Financial Statement; it has been already quoted by my hon. Friend; but I am sure the House will not be sorry to hear the words again. The Chancellor of the Exchequer paused in the middle of his Financial Statement, in order to draw the attention of the Committee to a subject which he thought required attention. He said—
      1906
      "There is another point on which I think it is necessary to say a few words, because in my estimation we have reached a period at which I think the attention of the Committee ought to be addressed to it. I think this is one of those junctures which undoubtedly renders it, if not obligatory, at least expedient, that this should be done. I wish to present to the House, in a very succinct and general form, a few figures which, I think, illustrate in a striking manner the present movement of public wealth as compared with population and expenditure. This is a subject which does not annually come under the consideration of the Committee; but, undoubtedly, it is a subject that periodically it is desirable should be brought into view, and especially so when a change has been taking place with respect to which the Minister may happen to believe, as I believe, that neither the public nor Parliament are fully aware of it. We make ground at such a rate, and for such a long time, that people begin to believe we shall never cease to make ground; but I wish Parliament to understand that we are not making ground at present. I speak of the last few years, and without reference to Party differences, and I say we are rather losing than making ground."—[3 Hansard, cclx. 580.]
      The right hon. Gentleman then proceeded to draw attention to the various statistics which were quoted by my hon. Friend. We have had a very simple explanation given by the hon. Baronet the Member for the University of London (Sir John Lubbock) and adopted by the President of the Board of Trade; they attribute our losing ground for some time to the fact that we have had a Conservative Ministry. But what is remarkable is that the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade, when he quotes figures to show that the idea of the distress of the country is exaggerated, and that we are not losing but making ground, should take his figures from the very time of which he speaks so lightly. This very evening some of the figures which he gave us with regard to the growth of population, on which he so much dwelt, relate to the years from 1872 to 1879, of which two years belong to the one Government and four or five to the other. Well, then, I remarked in the speech which he made last year, and which he published with an appendix, that his comparative statements were made as to the progress of various branches of industry in the six years from 1869 to 1874, and the six years from 1874 to 1880, and that he showed greater progress in a large number of branches of industry during the last six years than during the previous six years.

      1907
      The hon. Baronet (Sir John Lubbock)—and I heard it with surprise, coming as it did from him, who is usually so fair—stated that our troubles began when the late Government came into Office. Why, it was immediately pointed out to him that the decline began two years before—in the year 1872—and that there was a small decline in that year and another in the following year. But really, if these are the arguments used, would it not be worth the while of the Government to let us have a Committee which would bring out these important points, and which would give us the opportunity of cross-questioning a little and examining into the reality of statements of this general character, which are used so glibly, and which pass muster, no doubt, amongst those who do not know better. We want to know with regard to the difference in our position in consequence of the failure of the French Treaty negotiations. I was struck just now by one of the opening observations of the right hon. Gentleman. He stated that he gathered from the speeches which had preceded him that Protection was or was not called Protection according to the object with which any particular duty was imposed; that the duty imposed for one object would be called protective, but if imposed for another object the same duty would not be called protective. I think we may turn that observation upon the right hon. Gentleman and his Colleagues, with regard to the important question that is sometimes called Reciprocity and sometimes Retaliation. It is not Retaliation, or even Reciprocity, in what is considered the sense of the word by Free Traders. If you propose to a country like France that if she will make certain concessions you will take 6d. a gallon off the duty on her wines, it is not at all objectionable. But if, on the other hand, you say to France—"We intend, if you do not make certain concessions, to add 6d. a gallon to the duty on your wines," it is called Retaliation. I adhere entirely to the views which I have always expressed on this subject. I am as firmly convinced of the soundness of the general principles of Free Trade as I have ever been in my life; but I do not see where you are to bring about the mischief which is apprehended, if you assent to the proposal which is made by my hon. Friend for a fair inquiry into
      1908
      this subject. It is obvious, if you have the confidence which you ought to have in your own system, you ought not to be so much afraid of subjecting it to examination. The right hon. Gentleman did not use the words that were uttered the other day upon another subject by the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for India; he surely will not say that the Free Trade system, as it stands at present, is either so sacred or fragile that it will not bear inquiry. What I think you would gain by an inquiry would be this—that you would clear the minds of those outside who are at present agitated by what is going on. Do you suppose there is no real excitement in the country upon the subject? Do hon. Gentlemen dispute what the hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Ecroyd) says? Do they deny that there are, in many of the Northern manufacturing towns, large bodies of persons who are much agitated upon this subject, and who are, many of them, adopting what I think to be wild and mistaken ideas, but still ideas which are deserving attention, and which it would be most profitable that you should be able to deal with and explain? I continually hear statements made here and elsewhere which are at once contradicted, and you scarcely know how to deal with the controversy. Take a question about which a good deal has been said—I mean the question of the balance of trade. I think it would be a great advantage if we were able to follow up that question more closely than we are able to do in a debate of this kind. And so with other questions, even that suggested by the hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Ecroyd)—the question of a Colonial or Imperial union for the purpose of doing away with duties between the different parts of the Empire. Even that, I think, is worth consideration and discussion, though I am bound to say that, to me, it seems to be beyond reach at the present time. It would be well to discuss the difficulties which beset many of our manufacturers; it would be well if we could go into the whole circumstances to see whether—and my hon. Friend (Mr. Ritchie's) Motion is quite wide enough to cover it—to see whether there is no other method besides that of retaliatory duties which could be adopted, and adopted with advantage, to remove—

      1909
      "The impediments to a fuller development of the manufacturing and commercial industries of the United Kingdom."
      I believe that many questions would be raised and would be discussed before such a Committee as is now proposed which, it would be extremely advantageous we should discuss. I am sorry to find that the Government do not intend to assent to the very moderate request of my hon. Friend.
      MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, when the right hon. Gentleman rose I was in hopes that he rose for the purpose of disclaiming with decision, and, perhaps, even with a little indignation, the imputation that had been cast upon him by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, to the effect that he meant to completely reverse the course that he had taken two years ago, and that, having then refused to assent to a Committee of Inquiry into the policy of Protection and Free Trade, he now meant to support a similar proposal. Disappointments, however, are not uncommon, and our political education, as the right hon. Gentleman said the other day, is always advancing, and we are constantly hearing of some possibility which we had hitherto believed to be impossible. I propose to examine what I must call the very flimsy reasons given by the right hon. Baronet for his extraordinary change of front. The first reason given is that this Motion differs from a former one on the same subject. The present Motion is one which calls upon Parliament to inquire into the effects which the Tariffs in foreign countries have upon the principal branches of British trade and commerce, and the Motion of Mr. Wheelhouse was a Motion of which the most salient point was that it was to inquire into the system of so-called one-sided Free Trade. Now, except that there is, as I must admit, a certain improvement in the English of the present Motion as compared with that of 1880,I affirm that the substance of the two Motions is precisely the same. The question of the hostile nature of foreign legislation and high Foreign Tariffs is the basis of both, and a comparison between that hostile legislation and those high Tariffs and our own system of free imports is the subject which, in that case and in this case, the Committee was to be called upon to examine. The next reason is that I
      1910
      made a speech in which I stated to the House of Commons last year that whereas we had been accustomed to take for granted that we were always making ground it was doubtful whether, at this moment, we were really doing so; and my illustration, drawn entirely from the profit-making classes and not from the wage-receiving classes of this country, was drawn from the fluctuations in the value of the 1d. on the Income Tax. [Sir STAFFORL: NORTHCOTE: Customs and Excise receipts as well.] And a comparison, likewise of the movements of the receipts in various years from the Customs and Excise. Aye, but not to show, as regarded those movements of receipt, that we were not making ground, but to show that we were not making ground as compared with the population and expenditure of the country, which is a different thing. But why an exhibition of a fact of that kind, which appeared to be a matter of public interest, and likely to have a salutary effect on the temper of this House in regard to public expenditure and public economy, should be a reason for adopting a measure which the right hon. Gentleman himself condemned a year before as calculated to shake the confidence of the country and propagate false impressions with respect to the intentions of the Government and Parliament as to our commercial relations, the right hon. Gentleman did not in any single word of his speech explain. And what was the third of these three reasons which I have ventured to call—but I will not use the word again. What is the third of these three most unsubstantial, most scanty, most ethereal, most transcendental reasons?—all these, I hope, are Parliamentary expressions, and have, at least, the tacit approval of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Bridport (Mr. Warton).
      MR. WARTON: Let me explain. ["Order!"] I did not object to the word "flimsy."
      MR. GLADSTONE: I did not intend to impute to the hon. and learned Member that he did object to the word. I meant to fortify myself against those who objected by showing that I had the sanction of the hon. and learned Member for that expression. The third reason was that we had failed in the commercial negotiations with France. Well, Sir, let that pass. Undoubtedly, at the pre-

      1911
      sent moment, the facts before the House are to the effect that the efforts which have been continued for many years to effect a renewal of the Tariff Treaty with France have now come definitely to an unsuccessful termination. Be that so; but why is that a reason for investigating our system of Free Trade? The speech of the right hon. Gentleman was to the effect—and I admit that a great deal is to be said in that sense—that these Tariff Treaties were doubtful and entangling instruments, and that they imparted something of, at least apparent, disparagement to the principles of Free Trade. Then, Sir, it appears that, escaping from the meshes of the Tariff Treaty, we have emerged from a murky into a clear atmosphere, and that those principles of Free Trade on which we stand in our fiscal legislation are no longer disparaged, no longer brought into any doubt or question by our having, at least apparently, made some portion of them ultra vires. And why is that more complete, and thorough, and rigid establishment of the principles of Free Trade, if we are real Free Traders, to be made a reason for a Parliamentary A inquiry? "Oh," says the right hon. Gentleman, "do not show a mistrust of the principles of Free Trade by refusing an inquiry into them." Why, Sir, if we were to propose in this House a Committee to inquire whether it was desirable to continue the system of trial by jury, or a Committee to inquire whether it was desirable to revive the rotten boroughs extinguished by Schedule A of the Reform Act, should I be told that I was showing mistrust in the Reform Act, or mistrust in trial by jury, if I said—"I shall vote for no Committee for such a purpose?" No, Sir; the right hon. Gentleman gave us these three reasons; but in his speech there was this one fatal defect—that he did not answer the reason he himself gave in l880. In 1880, when this same proposal was made, he said—
      "I wish distinctly to say on the part of the Government. … that they think it would be wrong by any doubtful proceeding, countenanced especially by them, to raise a false idea or to produce a wrong impression as to their commercial policy."—[3 Hansard, ccl. 619.]
      This is a proposal tending to produce a "false idea" and a "wrong impression" as to our commercial policy; and for that proposal the right hon. Gentleman
      1912
      is now going to vote. I do not like, at this unreasonable hour—1.10 A.M.—to detain the House; but two or three words I must say. The right hon. Gentleman on that occasion was emphatically right in the words he used, and he has not attempted to reply to those words; nor has he told us that the appointment of this Committee will not raise a false idea or produce a false impression. And why has he not told us that? Because he knows that the whole value set upon the proposal by nineteen-twentieths of those who will support it is just because it will give a false impression and raise a false idea. If this were a matter carried on with closed doors and within the walls of this country, as we have walls to this House, then I think that the excitement that might prevail here, and the false expectations that might be raised, would, perhaps, be comparatively harmless. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Preston (Mr. Ecroyd) might amuse the enthusiastic working men whom he is in the habit of addressing, and, no doubt, they would be exceedingly pleased with one another on the repetition of the occasions to which he has referred. Although I think a great deal of delusion would be propagated throughout the land, yet I admit that it, after all, would be child's play, and would never have a result, for the bubble the right hon. Gentleman is blowing would burst in the first moment of its existence. Unfortunately, the knowledge of these proceedings and the proposal for this Committee of Inquiry, and the knowledge that the proposal for such a Committee has been supported by the late Leader of the House of Commons, which I deem to be a fact far more important than the proposal for the Committee itself, cannot be confined within these walls, and cannot be confined within these shores, but will go abroad. I will not ask the Mover of the Motion whether he is prepared to face the consequences of his own success, for I take it that he is perfectly prepared to do so; but I should like to know how the right hon. Baronet would face the consequences? Does he not know, as well as I do, that the fact of such a vote having been given by the House of Commons, going forth through Europe to the civilized world, would at once become the strongest argument in favour of Protection, in favour of hostile Tariffs,

      1913
      in favour of those who are fighting the battle of commercial legislation, who would then be able, for the first time, to say—"See that this delusion of Free Trade, even in its stronghold, is now shaken to its base; and one, at least, of the great Parties in the country has, by the mouth of its Leader, admitted that it has become a subject for solemn inquiry, re-trial, and re-investigation whether the great struggle of 30 years ago is to be fought over again or not, and whether the system of free importation is to be reversed?" I cannot really understand by what process of mind it is that a Gentleman of a tenth part of the knowledge and experience of the right hon. Baronet could bring himself to the conclusions to which, apparently, the unfortunate necessities of his position have forced him. This I must say—I do not believe the right hon. Gentleman anticipates the success of the Motion. I must further own that, though there are no arguments for the Motion, there are some temptations to concur in it; for I should be very much interested indeed in viewing the proceedings of the Committee, considering the nature of the component parts which would make it up. There would be one Gentleman with his modest proposal of simply a retaliatory duty upon wine. There would be another Gentleman with his proposal of a 10 per cent duty upon foreign manufactures and articles of food, but not upon raw materials; and another with his proposal for a duty upon foreign manufactures and raw materials, but not upon articles of food. And, Sir, I would venture to give this advice to my hon. Friends on this side of the House, in the impossible event of the House voting the Committee, that the whole enjoyment of that Committee should be left to its supporters. If it were possible for them to secure a Committee Room within the precincts of the Tower of Babel, it would be the most appropriate site. It is not my intention, at this hour, to detain the House upon a question which I greatly regret should have already occupied so many hours of time which is wanted for purposes more urgent and more practical. The House will, I have no doubt, reject this Motion; and they will reject it on the very ground so happily stated and recorded for us by the right hon. Baronet two years ago—on the ground that the adoption
      1914
      of the Motion would do mischief in this country, and, to some extent, mischief in foreign countries, to an enormous extent, by propagating the false and erroneous idea that we, in the teeth of all the demonstrative evidence, of which portions have been laid before us tonight in the admirable speeches which have been delivered on this side of the House, are about to lose the fruits of the struggles of a generation of men, and about to compromise a system which has contributed largely and mainly to the unparalleled wealth, strength, and prosperity of the country, and to revert to a scheme of delusions and impostures which, happily, have been banished from these three Kingdoms.
      MR. O'DONNELLsaid, he would not trouble the House for more than a very few minutes. It happened that some of the Irish Members were in favour of inquiry into the system of free imports; and, without wishing to criticize the admirable and able speech they had just listened to from the Prime Minister, he wished they could hit upon some system of inquiring into the working of the rule and plan we had adopted, which would not have such terrific and formidable effects at home and abroad. He would only call the attention of the House to this fact—that in the opinion of the vast majority of the Irish people the introduction of Free Trade, under the circumstances, at any rate, in which it was introduced, simply completed and assured that ruin 'of Irish agriculture which was at the bottom of the social and political difficulties which were now tasking the energies of both political Parties. In the second place, it was the opinion of some—[Interruption.]—he begged hon. Members' pardon, and could assure them that he did not intend to delay the House long, and that conversation in loud tones was not calculated to shorten the length of his remarks. Some Irish Members, at least, were of opinion that an inquiry into the defects of our present system of absolutely free imports would throw a much-needed light upon the settlement of Irish agricultural questions. He would venture to submit this to the consideration of the Prime Minister—Supposing the effect of the present system of absolutely free imports, competing with that important branch of native industry, Irish agriculture, rendered it absolutely impossible

      1915
      to have such a thing as a fixation of fair rents for any length of time—supposing the working of the absolutely free system of imports made the system of fair rents calculated on a duration of 15 or 20 years a system of unfair rents within five years, would it not be well worth while to have some system of inquiry by which the political Leaders on both sides of the House would know that in trying to fix rents in Ireland on the basis of a 15 or 20 years' duration they would only run the risk of insuring a fresh crop of discontent? Some safer way of arriving at facts than at present existed was badly wanted; and it was the opinion of large numbers of people in Ireland that before long, in consequence of this evil, the absolutely unchecked system of free agricultural imports into Ireland must be remedied. A collection of trustworthy statistics, which could only be arrived at by such an inquiry as was now suggested, was really necessary for the settlement of the Irish agrarian question; and if that was not the opinion of the Liberal Party, he was afraid they were not likely to succeed in administration in Ireland.
      MR. NEW DEGATEsaid, he wished to express the impression which the eloquent and most energetic speech of the First Lord of the Treasury had made upon him. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to feel that dwelling under a system of free imports was like dwelling in a glass house. The right hon. Gentleman continued to use the words "Free Trade;" but he varied it with the words "free imports," because no man knew better than he did that free import on one side and Protection on the other was not Free Trade. The right hon. Gentleman and his Friends must cease to call themselves Free Traders; they had no hope of becoming so, for the negotiations with the French Government had put an end to the delusion under which free imports were instituted. Yet the House was now called upon deliberately to reject a proposal to inquire into the position of this country under these altered circumstances. He had been called a "bigot;" but if ever there was an instance of bigotry, it was in the refusal of this inquiry. If ever there was a confession of weakness, it was in the refusal of this inquiry by those who longed to be called Free Traders, but knew that the system which they had maintained
      1916
      was no longer Free Trade. He had agreed with the Prime Minister last year when the right hon. Gentleman pointed out in his Financial Statement that the position of this country had become most grave under these circumstances; and he rejoiced that the right hon. Baronet the Member for North Devon (Sir Stafford Northcote) had had the courage to repeat the demands of the country for an inquiry into this altered position.
      MR. BIDDELLsaid, he was glad of the admission that the slackness of their manufacturers had, in part, arisen from the depression of agriculture. It was evident the agricultural and manufacturing industries understood each other better than formerly. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade had stated that the total imports and exports of a nation were the best test of its prosperity. Accepting that data, he would compare the two years 1872–3 with those of 1879–80. Why he had selected the former period was that wheat in it had sold higher than for 15 or 20 years past—namely, at 58 s. per quarter; in the latter at only 44 s. per quarter. Another reason he made the comparison was to show the manufacturers that a high price of corn was not inconsistent with their prosperity. In the first period their annual imports, in round numbers, amounted to £312,000,000, their exports to £363,000,000; together, £675,000,000; while in 1879-80 the annual imports were £267,000,000, and their exports were £392,000,000; together making a total value of £659,000,000. Their poor relief and management cost in the first period annually £14,000,000, and in the latter £16,000,000. Their Custom duties were respectively £20,500,000 and £19,500,000. The right hon. Gentleman had largely alluded to the United States. Well, how stood we with them? Why, our export trade was declining. In 1872–3 we annually sent them exports to the extent of £36,000,000; while in 1879–80 we sent only to the value of £26,000,000. As to corn, their annual growth in the first period was 11,500,000 acres; in the latter only 10,750,000. Their increasing dependence upon foreign supplies for their food was, to his mind, a most serious matter, and should, if possible, be checked by encouragement to the home grower. Not that he would place any duty on

      1917
      corn to maintain rents, or he might even say to uphold the tenant solely; but, looking at the general welfare, he thought a duty placed upon wheat when only it was at a low price would be beneficial to the country in maintaining the growth of corn in it. He totally denied it was a question of rent, for, whether that was reduced or increased, the land should either be used for the growth of corn or grain, whichever was found to be most profitable. One of the strongest arguments used by the right hon. Gentleman in favour of Free Trade was that if we set the example other countries would follow us; but that prognostication had been falsified, as the proposed Committee could inquire.
      Question put.
      The House divided:—Ayes 140; Noes 89: Majority 51.—(Div. List, No. 60.)
      Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.

      SUPPLY—CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS.
      SUPPLY—considered in Committee.
      (In the Committee.)
      Motion made, and Question proposed,
      "That a sum, not exceeding £3,631,600, be granted to Her Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the Charge for the following Civil Services and Revenue Departments for the year ending on the 31st day of March 1883, viz.:—

      CIVIL SERVICES.
      CLASS I—PUBLIC WORKS AND BUILDINGS.

      Great Britain:—

      £

      Royal Palaces

      7,000

      Marlborough House

      700

      Royal Parks and Pleasure Grounds

      20,000

      Houses of Parliament

      6,000

      Monument to Earl of Beaconsfield (Re-Vote)

      500

      Public Buildings

      30,000

      Furniture of Public Offices

      2,500

      Revenue Department Buildings

      40,000

      County Court Buildings

      8,000

      Metropolitan Police Courts

      1,500

      Sheriff Court Houses, Scotland

      2,000

      New Courts of Justice, &c.

      30,000

      Surveys of the United Kingdom

      45,000

      Science and Art Department Buildings

      4,500

      British Museum Buildings

      1,300

      Natural History Museum

      8,000

      Harbours, &c. under Board of Trade

      2,000

      Rates on Government Property (Great Britain and Ireland)

      70,000

      Metropolitan Fire Brigade

      2,500

      LORD GEORGE HAMILTONsaid, he was very sorry, at that late hour (1.45), to detain the Committee; but he rose for the purpose of moving the reduction of the Vote which had just been put from the Chair by the sum of £200,000. As he understood the Vote, it was a Vote on Account for two months; and he proposed to reduce the Education Vote, which amounted to the sum of £550,000, by the sum of £200,000. That would

      1921
      give the Government a Vote on Account for carrying on the work of elementary education in Great Britain and Wales for one month. His reason for taking this course might be stated in a very few words. The Vice President of the Council (Mr. Mundella) laid upon the Table of the House on the 6th of March a new Revised Code. That Code was laid upon the Table in accordance with certain powers given to the Education Department, and, so far as he knew, the Education Department was the only great spending Department of the State which had the power of manipulating the sums placed under its control for elementary education, because there was power given to the Privy Council to alter, annul, or revise in any way they chose, any of the conditions upon which the grant was given. Any Minute which they prepared for the alteration of the Code was made to apply to every single elementary school from one end of the Kingdom to the other. Now, this was an enormous power for any Department to exercise; and when the conditions under which the grant was made were to be officially imposed, and might vitally affect the schools, it was not too much to say that such important alterations in the Code which might affect the very existence of every elementary school in the Kingdom, no matter whether that school was Roman Catholic, Nonconformist, or Church of England, should be properly discussed before they were carried into operation. Indeed, Parliament had provided this safeguard over the spending power of the Privy Council—that the Minute of alterations made by the Privy Council should lie for 30 days upon the Table of the House. Of course, the clear intention, and the only object of that provision, was that during these 30 days any Member of the House who objected to the Code should have an opportunity of discussing it. Now, the present Revised Code was laid on the Table of the House by the Vice President of the Privy Council on the 6th of March, and it would consequently become law on the 6th of April. He (Lord George Hamilton) had asked the Government some time back to do one of two things—either to delay the coming into law of the Code until time could be given for its discussion, or to place a day at the disposal of the House for discussing it. He did not think that either
      1922
      of those proposals was unreasonable. He admitted that the Government must have a certain sum of money in order to carry on the elementary education of the country; and what he proposed, therefore, was that the Government should have money given to them for one month. The House would re-assemble after the Easter Holidays before that month had expired, and then the Government might provide an early day for securing the necessary discussion. He did not wish to say that the Vice President of the Council had made any unfair or improper alterations in the Code; indeed, he would go so far as to credit him with having made several decided improvements; but the matter was one that required further explanation and a good deal of criticism. When, on a previous occasion, Mr. Lowe and his noble Friend the Member for Liverpool (Viscount Sandon) laid alterations in the Code upon the Table, they afforded the House an opportunity of discussing them within the time prescribed by law. [Mr. MUNDELLA said, that was not so.] He (Lord George Hamilton) had a distinct recollection that Mr. Lowe, in reply to Mr. Disraeli, said—
      "If I wanted to play fast and loose, I should have laid the Code on the Table upon the first day of the Session, and have trusted to its passing through in the pressure of Business."
      That was what really happened in this case; but, so far as his memory served him, his right hon. Friend the late Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir Stafford Northcote) acceded to the proposal of the Postmaster General when the last Code was laid upon the Table, and delayed its coming into law until an opportunity for discussing it was afforded. He wished to point out that although the Code would not come into operation until April next year, it would hardly be competent for any hon. Member to propose or to carry any alterations in it, and that it would necessarily become law unless the discussion were taken immediately after it was laid upon the Table. The principle upon which payments were made for elementary education was, that the schoolmasters and managers of every school should have 12 months in order to prepare the children for the examinations. It would be necessary, under the provisions of the Code, that every elementary school should be examined before April next year. He

      1923
      had received various letters, pointing out that if the Code were allowed to become law, and the discussion did not take place until some three or four months hence, no proposal could then be made to alter it, because, if such a proposal were made, the masters and managers would be placed under great disadvantage, inasmuch as they would not have had 12 months' notice. Under these circumstances, he hoped the Government would not refuse his reasonable request, which was that, so far as the Elementary Education Vote was concerned, they should only take a Vote for one month. He would move a reduction of the Vote by £200,000.
      Motion made, and Question proposed,
      "That a sum, not exceeding £3,431,600, be granted to Her Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the Charge for the following-Civil Services and Revenue Departments for the year ending on the31stday of March 1883."—(Lord George Hamilton.)
      MR. MUNDELLAsaid, the noble Lord who had just addressed the Committee had taken an extraordinary course. He thought the object of the noble Lord was not so much to criticize the Code as to obtain a little time from the Government. ["No!"] Perhaps the Committee would allow him to state why he said this. The Government had laid the Code upon the Table, and that Code was not challenged. If any discussion were to arise on any action of the Government it must be on the Motion for the rejection of the Code that the discussion arose, as no Notice, except that of his hon. Friend the Member for the University of London (Sir John Lubbock), had yet been placed upon the Paper. The noble Lord said that the Education Department had the power to alter or to annul the grant to any voluntary or other school during the year; but the noble Lord must admit that that remark would not apply to the grant for the present year. The grant up to April, 1883, must be paid according to the existing Code, as it was not affected by the new Code at all. The new Code would not come into operation until after the sums included in this Vote had been paid—namely, not until after the 1st day of April, 1883. Consequently, not one farthing of the money voted this year would be devoted to the payment of charges under the
      1924
      new Code. If the Committee refused this Vote—which always came before them every year, because the school payments went on every day of the year as regularly as the Inspectors made their Reports—the result would be, as the noble Lord knew very well, that the whole school machinery would be at a standstill, owing to the want of funds to pay the grants. He might further remind the Committee that there never was a Code known which had been discussed so much in advance as this, because he had made known the proposals contained in the Code in July last; and during the Recess he had received representations in regard to them from everybody who was at all interested in the question of education. The Privy Council had endeavoured to meet their wishes as far as possible, and the Council had received from school boards, from the masters of schools, and from all quarters, thanks for what they had done in the Code. He believed that the Code carried into effect the greatest improvements that had ever been introduced, and he was quite sure that when the House came to discuss the Code, nobody would give it better support than the noble Lord himself. He was quite satisfied of that. The noble Lord said that no opportunity had been afforded for discussing it. Now, 10 days ago, he had offered the noble Lord last Tuesday morning; and again, this week, he had offered him next Tuesday. There might be five hours' discussion of the Code then, if anybody cared to challenge it; and, personally, he should only be too glad to have a discussion. A discussion would undoubtedly arise some time or other; but he did not believe that it would result in any alteration or modification of the Code. Hitherto, year by year, it had always been after the Code had been laid for 30 days on the Table of the House that it had been discussed, and any modifications that were made were made by Minute after the Code had been laid upon the Table and become law. The Privy Council had no desire to say that this was a perfect Code, or that it was incapable of modification; and they would only be too happy if an opportunity were given for discussing it. He was satisfied that the noble Lord had no serious wish to delay the Code. Nobody knew better than the noble Lord that it was an improvement upon the

      1925
      existing Code, and that it was adapted to sweep away a great many of the imperfections which the noble Lord himself did his best to remedy when he was at the head of the Department. He (Mr. Mundella) hoped that the House would not refuse the grant upon this occasion because the Government were unable to promise a night for its discussion before the 6th of April. That was, in point of fact, the only question raised by the noble Lord.
      MR. LYULPH STANLEYsaid, he agreed with the noble Lord the Member for Middlesex (Lord George Hamilton) as to the importance of having a fair discussion of the Code. At the same time, much as the Code needed discussion, he did not think it was desirable to adopt the Amendment which had been moved by the noble Lord and force the hands of the Government by making provision for only one month. He wished to point out to the noble Lord that the course he suggested would have a very prejudicial effect. Many of the school boards and managing bodies met only once a month, and they wanted a little more time than this proposal would afford them for examining the Code. Many of the suggestions contained in the Code were absolutely new suggestions, and were departures from the principles laid down in the autumn. It was, therefore, absolutely necessary that a night should be fixed for a full discussion of the Code, and it should not be left to private Members to take upon themselves the responsibility of ballotting for a night. The responsibility ought to be taken by the Department itself, which ought to meet the House of Commons fairly, and give them a proper opportunity for discussing the Code. It was because he believed that the discussion should be full and minute, and because he did not believe that the consideration of the Code could be undertaken with the Easter Holidays intervening, that he objected to the Amendment moved by the noble Lord. It must be borne in mind that, after the Code had been criticized, it could always be modified by a Supplementary Minute; and no one would be prejudiced by its becoming law within 30 days. He hoped, therefore, that the money now asked for by the Government would be granted, and that they would not be asked to undertake this
      1926
      important discussion immediately after the Easter Holidays, before an opportunity had been afforded to the country for a full examination of the Code. Therefore, in the interests of full and free discussion itself, he should object to this Amendment.
      MR. R. H. PAGETsaid, he hoped the Committee would take the view which had been put forward by the noble Lord, that more time was necessary for the consideration of the Education Code. It was, undoubtedly, a matter of the greatest concern and importance, so far as the voluntary schools were concerned, that those who were interested in them should have a thorough understanding of the new scheme. It was not his intention to express any opinion as to whether this was a good or a bad one, because, as yet, there had been no opportunity of seeing how it was likely to act; and he challenged any hon. Gentleman, however well he might be acquainted with the details of the scheme, to say in what manner it would affect the elementary schools. As to the Board schools, their position was a very different one; and, however it might result, the new Code was a matter of little importance to them. But he repeated that, in the case of the voluntary schools, and especially those of the poorer class, it was a matter of importance, and, so to speak, of life and death to them, to know how they would be affected; and, therefore, he asked that a sufficient time should be allowed for a thorough and ample study of the Code, for the purpose of ascertaining its probable effect upon the finances of these schools. Up to the present time, certainly, there had been no opportunity of doing this. The Easter Holidays were close at hand; and he contended that it was but reasonable that the Vote should be postponed till the time suggested by the noble Lord, for the purpose of consulting with those interested in the schools as to how the new scheme would apply to their work, and whether or not they would be able to survive it. He did not say they would not be able to do so; but he contended that it was not right to force this matter upon them until its effect upon their finances was ascertained.
      MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid, the whole question, so to speak, lay in a nut-shell. The speeches of the hon. Member who had just sat down, and of the right hon.

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      Gentleman the Vice President of the Council, were proofs not only that the new Code would be made the subject of criticism in that House, but that such criticism was necessary. It seemed to him quite clear that the provisions of the new Code would be most properly discussed at the time when the Education Estimate was brought forward. The right hon. Gentleman had not said anything, in the course of the observations he had just made, in reply to the argument of the noble Lord, that schoolmasters should have, as nearly as possible, a year's notice of the Code under the provisions of which they were to come at the end of the year. That was the actual substance of the argument of his noble Friend, and it had received no attention at the hands of the Vice President of the Council. Since, then, it followed that there must be criticism, and that it must come soon, hon. Members could not insure an opportunity for this purpose unless they limited the amount asked for by Government to one month's Supply.
      MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid, the question of the new Education Code was one of vital importance to the Roman Catholic schools throughout Ireland, and he had listened with extreme surprise when the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council intimated to the Committee that the Roman Catholic clergy had expressed to him their satisfaction at the provisions of the new scheme. [Mr. MUNDELLA dissented.] He certainly understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that they had expressed to him their thanks for the new Code. But, however that might be, he could assure him that a very different feeling prevailed amongst the great body of the Catholic people in Ireland, and that they viewed the probable consequences of the Code with sentiments of the greatest alarm. The question, however, was a large one, and involved too many points of importance for it to be discussed with propriety at 2 o'clock in the morning. In leaving the subject, therefore, he would remark that the right hon. Gentleman had no right to complain of the noble Lord for raising the question of the Code on the present occasion, because he believed it would be in the recollection of the Committee that the noble Lord had given Notice that when these Estimates came forward
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      he should bring up the subject of education. But the Education Vote was only one of 142 Votes on the Estimates, and its discussion must necessarily take up a considerable time. How, then, could the Committee be reasonably expected to pass the whole of this sum of £3,631,000 without any discussion whatever? If hon. Members would glance down the list of Votes, it would be seen that there were a number of items which many Members sitting on that side of the House could not be supposed to allow to pass without every form of challenge which it was in their power to offer. For instance, there was the Vote for the Office of Privy Seal, which he would never allow to pass without a division. Then there was the Vote for Secret Service money, which Irish Members would certainly not allow to pass without a full inquiry into its application and working. Then, again, there were the Votes for Convict Establishments and Prisons in Ireland, besides a number of others which it was then not necessary for him to point to, because those he had mentioned were quite sufficient to show the utter unreasonableness of the Government expecting them to vote this money at so late an hour. Under the circumstances, he should move to report Progress.
      Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Arthur O' Connor.)
      LORD GEORGE HAMILTONsaid, the reasonable proposal he had made to the Government with reference to this Vote was entirely in the interest of education. He had no wish to force on a discussion with regard to the Code, and he was now quite ready to make even a more reasonable proposal to the Government than he had made before. He was willing to agree to a Vote for two months' Supply if the Government, on their part, would undertake that before the two months expired a day should be appointed for the discussion of this question.
      MR. THOMAS COLLINSsaid, he hoped the noble Lord did not mean that the question should be discussed at a Morning Sitting. The House had been placed in a position of great difficulty by the debate on the Procedure of the House being put off until after the Easter

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      Holidays, and hon. Members found themselves, after sitting for 10 hours, called upon at past 2 o'clock in the morning to go through a long series of Votes and discuss important questions with reference to education. He was prepared to admit that the new Education Code was an improvement upon its predecessor; but, at the same time, it raised questions of such magnitude that they would have to be fully discussed by all those Members who took an interest in the great question of education. He could see no reason why a Government night should not be set apart for this discussion. This would have been a perfectly easy matter had the Government not blocked the whole Business of the House, and consumed two months of the Session, by the unnecessary conflict which they had raised between the two Houses of Parliament, and by their mischievous proceedings with reference to the clôture.
      MR. HEALYsaid, the noble Lord the Financial Secretary to the Treasury could not suppose that Irish Members would allow the items in this Vote for Secret Service, County Court Offices, Constabulary, and Prisons in Ireland to be taken on that occasion. He therefore thought the noble Lord should allow them to understand distinctly the particular Services for which the money was required. For his own part, he took a very great interest in the Education Vote, and he desired an opportunity of expressing his views upon the English educational system. For instance, he believed that it required four or five times as long to teach a child to read under the system in force in England than it did under the systems in operation in France and Germany; and, therefore, he should like to take the English system and contrast it with the system in foreign schools. Further, it was his intention to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council to grant a Select Committee for the purpose of inquiring into that subject. He asked the noble Lord to say for what particular Services he required this Vote on Account.
      LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHsaid, he wished to point out that this Vote on Account was necessary for carrying on the whole Civil Service of the country. Hon. Members would be aware that it was clearly understood that no money would be taken except for
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      purposes previously sanctioned by Parliament, and the money now asked for was simply for carrying on the Service of the country until the Estimates of the year came forward and were passed. The present Vote on Account appeared to be the smallest ever asked for the Civil Service. He entirely agreed with the noble Lord opposite that the Education Code should be discussed; but he did not understand that it could make any difference to the noble Lord whether or not it should be discussed exactly within the period he had named. The discussion, which he admitted to be necessary, could take place, without any loss to the public, after this Vote was taken. It had already been promised that the Votes for the Army and Navy should be taken at an early date; and, although he was not in a position to say when the Education Vote would be brought forward, he could assure the noble Lord that it was the wish of Her Majesty's Government to place it amongst the earliest Votes to be discussed.
      MR. REDMONDsaid, that the fact of the noble Lord not asking for money in respect of any new Services, as he had just informed the Committee, was not of the slightest importance in dealing with this Vote on Account. The noble Lord was asking, on that occasion, for money in support of the Secret Service, which, amongst other things, was being used in Ireland to demoralize the Irish people as far as possible. Further, it had been used for the purpose of carrying out a rule in Ireland, against which he and his hon. Friends were bound, on every occasion, to protest. It was all very well for the Government to tell the Committee that the money asked for was for purposes which had received the sanction of Parliament; but his complaint was that the Government were carrying on new proceedings in Ireland under cover of the old Services. He objected to the present Vote being taken in its entirety, because it included sums on account that would be applied to various Services in Ireland which would necessarily be the subjects of discussion on the part of Irish Members. If, however, the noble Lord the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, in asking for money on account, would exclude all contentious matters with reference to Ireland, he should not object in the slightest degree to the Vote being taken. But, unless

      1931
      he was able to exclude from this lump sum the money demanded in respect of the following Services, in the way of which Irish Members felt it their duty to place every obstacle in their power, he should certainly oppose the Vote. They protested against any money being voted on the present occasion for the Establishment of the Lord Lieutenant, and in respect of the Office of the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant; they objected to the voting of money for the maintenance of Prisons and Convict Establishments in Ireland as they were at present managed, to the mismanagement of which, institutions Irish Members had, over and over again, called attention in that House; they objected to money being taken for the Local Government Board in Ireland, for reasons that had been frequently explained: for the Queen's Colleges, against which they had protested on every occasion when the question came under the consideration of the House. Then there was the Secret Service money, that was doing so much to demoralize the Irish people, as he had already pointed out. Irish Members protested against the use to which this money was being applied; and they were, moreover, bound on every occasion to object to any money being taken on account of the Post Office Service in Ireland until the recent proceedings in that Department had been explained and justified. Finally, there was the money asked in respect of Criminal Prosecutions in Ireland. They were told that no money was required in respect of any new Services; but, as he had already explained, it was under the cover of the old Services that new proceedings were being carried on against persons in Ireland. They might have allowed this Vote for Criminal Prosecutions to pass, had it not been for the novel character of the proceedings which had been carried on under this guise; but Irish Members now felt it their duty to protest against the Vote. If there was a subject upon which they were bound to protest, it was that of the Constabulary in Ireland. The proceedings of that force were a disgrace to the Government of any civilized nation; the proceedings of the Constabulary in Ireland to-day were a disgrace to the Government of England; and he was convinced that if only in this country of England the proceedings of the Irish
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      Constabulary were properly exposed, if only their protest in the House of Commons could reach the English public, and if they could understand, that the forces of the Crown and the Constabulary were being used in a barbarous manner to carry out a barbarous rule, he believed that very much indignation would be felt amongst a large class of English people who to-day gave a tacit assent to the government of Ireland. That assent was now given because the people of England were ignorant of the manner in which the government of Ireland was being carried on. He did not believe very much in English public opinion on Irish questions; but he was convinced of this—that if once they could reach the public ear of England, if they could once impress on the English people the true manner in which the government of Ireland was being carried on, a large section, at any rate, of the English, people would rise in revolt against the Government of the country. The government of Ireland to-day presented, in many respects, the worst features of a despotism. The money which they were asked to vote for the Secret Service provided a means whereby the Government could suborn false witnesses, whereby they could pay men to swear away the lives and liberties of the people he (Mr. Redmond) and his hon. Friends represented. They would be false to those who sent them to represent them in the House of Commons if they did not oppose every obstacle in their power to the passing of a single Vote, or one farthing of money, to perpetuate the system at present carried out in Ireland. In his heart he believed the Secret Service money was at the bottom of, a large portion of the crime and the outrage which to-day, unfortunately, existed in Ireland. He presumed the money which was given to informers, and which was given under the recent Police Circular to men who came forward and gave evidence of crimes which in their opinion were about to be committed, was supplied out of the Secret Service fund; consequently, it was palpably their duty to protest against this Vote. English Members, no doubt, viewed the opposition of hon. Members in his quarter of the House to Votes of this kind with great impatience. That was but natural, because they were ignorant of the manner in which the rule of their

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      nation was carried out in Ireland. ["Hear, hear!"] He ventured to ask any hon. Member who by his cheers accused them of unduly prolonging the discussion on Votes of this kind, whether he understood the manner in which the Secret Service money was being expended in Ireland? Did he know that recently a Police Circular was issued by Colonel Hillier, offering rewards to men who might offer evidence of crimes which were to be committed, and that policemen had been instructed by that Circular to go, in a friendly manner, amongst the people and worm themselves into the confidence of the people, and thus endeavour to obtain evidence from men who might be cognizant of crime about to be committed? He asked hon. Members, in a spirit of fairness, was it likely that such a system of government could tend in any other direction than in the creation of outrage? What was the effect of a Circular of that kind upon the people? The police were anxious to show their dexterity in the detection of crime, and they were able, under Colonel Hillier's Circular, to tell the men that if they gave them information about crimes which were about to be committed, even though they themselves instigated the commission of the crimes, they would obtain from the police large monetary rewards. Furthermore, the Circular went on to say that the man who gave the information would not even not have his name given to the public, but he would be treated in every way that his identification should not be arrived at. For the reasons he had given, amongst others, he considered they were bound to protest against this Vote. He had said that he believed that to the issue of the recent Circulars to the police many of the crimes and outrages which were happening in Ireland were to be attributed. He wanted, before he voted a single farthing in support of the Secret Service in Ireland, to hear some justification for the issue of those Circulars. It was all very well to tell them that the fund was required for the Public Service, and that they were not asked to vote any money in respect of Services which had not already been approved in this House; but he cared not if majorities of the House of Commons had, Session after Session, approved of the institution of the Secret Service; it still remained the
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      duty of himself and hon. Friends to oppose it by every means in their power. If the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Hartington) could by any means exclude from the bulk sum now proposed those sums which were required in respect of the contentious Irish matters, and would bring those sums up separately, he would have no further opposition to offer; but unless the noble Marquess would do something of the kind, he should conceive it to be his duty to prevent, by every obstacle the Forms of the House allowed him to avail himself of, the Government obtaining the money they now asked for.
      THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, he thought hon. Members scarcely understood the position of affairs. The Vote asked for was simply to carry on the government of the country for two months, and until the Committee should have an opportunity of fully discussing the questions, amongst others, raised by the hon. Member for New Ross (Mr. Redmond). To enter into a discussion at the present moment, which the hon. Member now invited them to do, would really rather tend to defeat than to promote the object in view. If there were to be a discussion now on the Constabulary or Secret Service Votes, the decision arrived at might be held to prejudge the opinion of the Committee when it came to vote the whole sum.
      MR. W. H. SMITHsaid, he hoped hon. Members below the Gangway would see the force of the observations which had just fallen from the noble Marquess, and not persist in a discussion which, would prejudice the position even from their own point of view. He understood that the Educational Estimates would be put down amongst the first of the Civil Service Estimates, so as to secure a full discussion upon educational matters without further waste of time. Desultory discussions like the present only resulted in a waste of time; and, upon the understanding that the Votes he had referred to would be taken early in May, he and his hon. Friends would withdraw their opposition.
      COLONEL NOLANsaid, he admired the tactics of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. H. Smith). It had been the right hon. Gentleman's task, on previous occasions, to ask for money, and he, therefore, knew the difficulties he had to face. He (Colonel Nolan) did

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      not wish to occupy much of the time of the Committee; but the present was a fitting opportunity to ask one or two questions of the Officials of the Irish Government. The first question was in regard to the provision of new potato seed. In four or five years time the value of Champion seed now being used would be spent. Some time ago a resolution was arrived at to take steps to obtain new seed, and he would like to know whether any provision was made in the Estimates in this respect? The second question was in regard to a grievance that was brought before him by a constituent of his. It was the case of a Mr. Newman, who was "reasonably suspected" by the Chief Secretary of having signed a "no rent" notice. The gentleman denied it; he had never done anything of the kind, and he had promised that he would never do anything of the kind again. He (Colonel Nolan) hoped the Committee would give him the whole of the credit of that "bull," for certainly Mr. Newman never said anything of the kind; it was entirely his own invention. Mr. Newman was a national school teacher, and by his having been imprisoned on suspicion, his result foes were greatly affected. An attempt had been made to suspend him from his position; but it appeared to him (Colonel Nolan) that to do this, when the man had not been tried, would be most unfair. They were entitled to an assurance from the Chief Secretary that unless Mr. Newman were brought to trial and convicted, his position as a school teacher should not be interfered with. In his opinion it would be well if Mr. Newman were released and allowed to return quietly to school.
      MR. HEALYsaid, he thought the course of instruction which the noble Lord (the Marquess of Hartington) had given them might very well have been delivered earlier, because he told them that it pledged the Committee in no way if they passed the Vote on the present occasion. He should have pointed that out at the outset. The noble Lord the Member for Middlesex (Lord George Hamilton) had moved the reduction of the Vote by £1,000,000; but the noble Marquess waited until an Irish Member got up, and then he opened a fusillade at the Irish Benches. He told them if they voted the money now they would not be pledged to the principle of the
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      Vote. How was it the noble Marquess did not impart that information to the Committee as soon as the noble Lord the Member for Middlesex rose? The noble Marquess did not give his very excellent instruction to the noble Lord on the Front Opposition Bench. It appeared to him the position of the noble Marquess was somewhat incongruous. Now, let them make up their minds what they were going to do? Were they going to make a night of it, or were they going to make up their minds at once? As far as he was personally concerned, he was not going to allow 1d. of the Constabulary, or the Prisons, or the Secret Service Votes to be taken tonight. Notwithstanding the charge of Obstruction, he should resist the Votes to the utmost of his power. Of course, when the Government had got the clôture, there would be no more Obstruction; it was intended to put an end to it, so that he and his hon. Friends could not be charged with it again. The present position of affairs appeared to be this. Irish Members were determined that the Government should give them ample time to discuss various matters relating to Ireland; the Government, upon their part, had determined that they would absorb all the time at the disposal of the House by discussions on the clôture and the House of Lords, about which questions no one cared anything. Owing to this determination of the Government, the House could not at reasonable times discuss many important Irish subjects; but at the fag end of a Friday Sitting they were asked to give their assent to a Vote for the Constabulary, Prisons, Secret Service, Local Government Board, and many other important matters. That sort of thing did not hang. Because the Government chose to take up all the time of the House by the consideration of the action of the House of Lords and a discussion on the clôture Resolution, he did not see why they should be asked to vote £3,000,000 at a quarter past 2 o'clock in the morning. They intended to avail themselves of every opportunity to discuss the Irish policy of the Government. They meant to sicken the Government of Ireland; they would raise Irish subjects in season, and out of season, until the Government would be sick of Ireland and of their coercive policy. He noticed that last

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      night, when he and his hon. Friends were discussing a very important matter relating to their imprisoned Mends, the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. W. H. James) and the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. J. Wilson) endeavoured to organize a "count out." Why did not the hon. Member for Gates-head, when the Business of his own Party was under discussion, try to "count out?"
      THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Gentleman must address himself to the Chair, and keep to the question before the Committee.
      MR. HEALYsaid, if the Chairman said he was not addressing himself to the Chair, of course he was not; he intended to do so. He would ask Mr. Playfair, if, under all the circumstances, it was unreasonable that Irish Members should desire full discussion of Irish questions? They knew very well that the Government endeavoured to shirk Irish questions. They gave no opportunity for their discussion; they, time after time, refused days for the consideration of Irish matters, and the consequence was that the Irish Members had to seize opportunities as they arose. These opportunities arose largely on Motions to adjourn the House and on the Estimates; therefore, when they got a chance like the present, it was too good to be lost. They found Her Majesty's Ministers wanted money to carry on their nefarious system of government in Ireland. They wanted £8,000 for Secret Service; £8,000 to debauch public opinion in Ireland; and £800,000 to enable them to turn decent people out on the road sides for not paying hardly possible rents. Then they required money to pay the Local Government Board for dismissing innocent public servants like Dr. Kenny. They wanted money to enable them to carry out the Coercion Act, and to enable them to keep in prison men in every way as respectable as anyone on the Treasury Bench. The Irish Members would make the Government give them the opportunity they wanted, and the matter had better be decided one way or the other, and that at once. It did not matter to him whether or not the Government decided to go on with the discussion of these Estimates. He would as soon stay up all night as not. He had in his portfolio, outside, valuable documents
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      relating to all these Irish subjects, which. they would take seriatim. The noble Marquess considered that if they allowed these Votes to pass now, they would not be pledging themselves to support them in the future; but that was not the view of the Irish Members. The Government had better say whether they were now going to take the discussion. ["Order!"] Gentlemen who cried out "Order!" should learn something about Order before they commenced to interrupt.
      THE CHAIRMAN: I must remind the hon. Gentleman that the Committee is not discussing the items in the Votes now, but the Motion to report Progress.
      MR. HEALY: Very well, as the Motion is to report Progress, it would be as well that we should divide and report Progress.
      COLONEL NOLANsaid, he had put a couple of definite questions to the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland, and he thought he had a right to ask for a reply.
      MR. METGEsaid, the Government should give them a guarantee that they would not bring on another Vote on Account before the Whitsuntide Holidays, and then bring on the residue of the Estimates late in the Session, without giving the Irish Members a chance of discussing them. The clôture Rules might be in force when the Estimates were finally brought on for consideration; and the Government would then be able to close the mouths of the Irish Representatives, and prevent them from discussing those questions that they looked on as so important to the country.
      LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHsaid, that, under all the circumstances, it was impossible for him to say what progress would be made in Supply. He could only assure hon. Members that the Government would be anxious to bring on the discussion of the Votes on the earliest possible day. With regard to what had fallen from the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for County Galway (Colonel Nolan), he must say that a Vote on Account was hardly the time for discussing the matters he had raised. So far as he could catch the meaning of the hon. and gallant Member, he had referred to something which concerned a new Service. He could tell the hon. and gallant

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      Member, if that was so, that no part of a Vote on Account was ever applied to a new Service.
      MR. DALYsaid, he was perfectly aware that the Business of the country must be carried on; but, at the same time, this sheet of Votes that he had in his hand was before him now for the first time. He was asked to vote a sum on account for the Constabulary of Ireland. When he compared the Vote for the coming year with that for the past year, he found an increase in the former over the latter of £114,000, In common with many other Members, he had a strong feeling that the Constabulary of Ireland were not doing so much the work of the country as the work of cruel and heartless landlords; and he did not think he should be called on to affirm, even in part, a Vote of that kind. He would put it to the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Hartington) that they should not, as it was now within 12 minutes of 3 o'clock in the morning, be called on to affirm, either in whole or in part, any such Vote as that. There were other Votes down which he would not refer to at this late hour; but he certainly did think that, as a matter of principle, this was not the time when these Votes should be submitted to the approbation or disapprobation of the Committee, because they could not receive that treatment at the hands of the Committee their importance deserved. The Constabulary Vote he should have thought of sufficient importance to have induced the Government to agree to report Progress.
      COLONEL NOLANsaid, his constituency paid from £15,000 to £20,000 under this Vote alone, and he thought it was, therefore, only right that he should avail himself of the Forms of the House for, at least, extracting information. This new charge on the Estimates was asked for last year, and was nearly refused—for he thought they would have beaten the Government with regard to it had it not been for the support given to Her Majesty's Ministers by the Conservatives and some few Irishmen. He had only just seen the Estimates and did not know where to look for the amount to which he referred. Where was he to find it? And how was he to discuss it unless he received this information? No one on the Treasury Bench seemed to know anything at all
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      about it; but he hoped he should hear an explanation of some kind from someone. They might, at least, tell him whether or not it was in the Estimates. Surely, this was a very moderate request. As to the second request, about Mr. Newman, he was sorry the Chief Secretary for Ireland was not in his place to give the necessary information. There ought to be two Chief Secretaries for Ireland, one—an Assistant Chief Secretary—in Ireland, and another in the House of Commons to answer questions. He wished to know if Mr. Newman was to be allowed to resume his position, seeing that he had not been put upon his trial? This was a reasonable question, to which he was entitled to receive an answer.
      THE CHAIRMAN: The question is that I report Progress, and ask leave to sit again.
      COLONEL NOLANsaid, he had repeated his question, and he wished to have an answer.
      LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHsaid, there was no Vote such as the hon. and gallant Member had mentioned in these Estimates. The subject had not been brought under his notice.
      COLONEL NOLANsaid, he did not moan to refer to these Estimates alone, but to any Estimates.
      LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHsaid, this lump sum was taken to carry on the entire Service.
      COLONEL NOLANwished to know whether any attention had ever been paid to the Resolution of the House of last year as to seed potatoes? If no money had been paid in respect——
      THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. and gallant Member has no right to discuss a question that is not within these Estimates. If the subject is not within these Estimates it cannot be discussed.
      MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid, that if they looked through the Estimates they would find there were two Votes under which this question as to school teachers could be raised.
      THE CHAIRMAN: That was not the point on which I spoke; it was with reference to an entirely different subject not in the Estimates before the Committee.
      COLONEL NOLANwished to know how the Chairman could say that the Vote he had referred to was not down in these Estimates? If he (the Chair-

      1941
      man) could assure him that the Vote was not down in these Estimates, of course, he was out of Order in referring to it.
      THE CHAIRMANThe noble Lord the Financial Secretary to the Treasury distinctly stated it was not in the Estimates; therefore, not being in the Estimates, it is not before the Committee.
      MR. HEALYsaid, the Vote for the Chief Secretary for Ireland and for the Lord Lieutenant was in the Estimates, and surely the question could arise upon those.
      MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid, these were Votes under which the case of these school teachers could properly be raised.
      THE CHAIRMAN: Order. The point is, whether the Vote for seed potatoes is in the Estimates, and not as to the school teachers.
      MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid, he had understood the hon. and gallant Member (Colonel Nolan) to be talking about something else. With regard to the position in which they now were, he would point out to the House the very great danger they stood in of entering upon proceedings which could not reflect credit on the House, and which were not at all likely to render the course of Business in future Sessions either more pleasant or more profitable. The noble Lord said it was absolutely necessary to vote this money. Well, he (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) thought he could show that it was not absolutely necessary to vote it—or, at any rate, that there was a great deal that the Government did not require at all. There was, for instance, "Vote 4. A. Monument to Lord Beaconsfield." He was not going to oppose that Vote, but it would serve as an illustration of the point he wished to enforce. There was £2,100, voted in the present financial year for that monument, which had not been expended. The Government had some of that money in hand, and they did not propose to spend it until the end of the year, and then they would have it re-voted to them. That was perfectly unnecessary. Then, take Secret Service money. Anyone would suppose that the Government was dependent on the Estimates for Secret Service money, but that was not the case; £10,000 was charged for Secret Service on the Consolidated Fund, and the Government had as much control
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      over that portion of the Consolidated Fund as they had over that which went to pay the Judges' salaries. Besides, the Government did not want so much Secret Service money as they used to, because out of the £23,000 voted in the past only £13,000 had been expended, and thousands were handed back to the Exchequer. As to the question raised by the hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Metge), in regard to bringing forward these Votes on Account, if they granted the Votes they would be finding the Government in ample funds for carrying on every department until June; and then in June they might find Her Majesty's Ministers coming forward again for a second Vote on Account, as they did last year—the Government telling hon. Members that it was absolutely necessary that they should have the money, and that the discussion could be taken on a future occasion. When did that discussion that the Government promised come on last Session? Why, it came on when it was hardly possible to keep a quorum together, when hon. Members were hardly physically able or willing to keep a House. Anxious as he was as a Member to do his duty, he protested against this system of doing away with all fair opportunity of canvasing the Public Expenditure as it ought to be canvassed. He would ask the Government to say whether, having regard to the very ample provision they proposed to make for their immediate requirements, they had not sufficient margin to enable them to dispense with some of the items on the long list in the hands of hon. Members. He would ask them whether it was absolutely necessary to take £500 for the Privy Seal Office; whether they conscientiously said they required £6,000 for the Secret Service; and whether they could not dispense with the items for the Lord Lieutenant's Household, and for the Office of the Chief Secretary for Ireland? He would put it to them, also, whether the Vote was absolutely necessary just now for Prisons and Constabulary in Ireland? Though there were some other Votes which, under other circumstances, he should certainly oppose, so far as he was concerned he should be content to withdraw his personal opposition if the Government would consent to eliminate from the present Votes the items he had mentioned.
      THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: I can hardly believe, in spite of what has fallen from hoc Members, that there can be a determined intention on the part of any Member of this House to obstruct the obtaining of money which it has been stated is absolutely necessary for the Public Service. The hon. Member who last spoke wishes to know if all the sums asked for are absolutely necessary? Our reply is in the affirmative, because we cannot discriminate in a Vote on Account between the various items. If we did do so, we should have to enter into long discussions, and have to waste a great deal of time in regard to matters that are really urgent. If we were to discriminate between the importance of one Vote and another, we should be declaring an opinion which might be of the utmost possible importance, and might be very inconvenient. We, therefore, ask the Committee to do what it always has done—namely, to enable the Government to continue the Services for a limited period—until the time when the Committee will be able to discuss all the Votes irrespective of their importance. I hope hon. Gentlemen will re-consider the intention announced by the hon. Member for Wexford (Mr. Healy), and will not think it necessary to enter into one of those contests which do not reflect credit on the Assembly.
      MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHYsaid, the noble Lord hardly perceived the force of the temperate and moderate intimation of the hon. Member for Queen's County (Mr. Arthur O'Connor), and the noble Lord had seen that there were many matters in this Vote which the Irish Members could not allow to pass without discussion and protest. What they hoped to do was to impress upon Parliament and upon the English people their objections to these Votes, which ought not to be taken at this hour of the night; and they wanted to know what security they would have, if they allowed the Votes to be passed, that there should be an opportunity for discussing the Votes? As the hon. Member had said, many months hence there might be a further Vote on Account asked for, and a full discussion on these Votes might be put off almost to the Greek Kalends, or to the end of the Session, when there would be no chance of discussion, and when it was supposed
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      the Government would have the clôture, under which the Chairman could bring the discussion to a close at any moment. Could the noble Lord, to whom he gave great credit for manhood and fair play, say it was reasonable to expect them to allow these proposals to pass now without some genuine assurance that they would have an opportunity for a fair discussion?
      MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, he hoped the noble Lord would adhere to the statement he had made to the Committee, and not distinguish between one of these Votes and another. It had been the practice for many years for the House to take Votes on Account which were absolutely necessary at this time of the year; but the practice had also been to take the Civil Service Estimates on the first day after the Easter Vacation. Could the noble Lord say that an early discussion would be taken on these Estimates?
      LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHwished to remind the Committee that a promise had been given that the Army Estimates should be taken on the first day after the Easter Recess, and the Navy Estimates on the earliest opportunity after that. He did not think any further pledges could be given.
      COLONEL NOLANsaid, he should not assume that, this being a Vote on Account, there would be no discussion; but he wished to obtain an answer from the noble Lord upon the question he had raised, and if the Government were determined to give no answer, and to take £18,000 from his constituents alone, he should protest against that; and he believed he should be right in doing all he could to prevent the money being so obtained.
      MR. SEXTONsaid, the hon. and gallant Member for Galway (Colonel Nolan) had been shut out from discussing the question of seed potatoes; but would not the hon. and gallant Member be entitled to discuss the grant administered by the Local Government Board, Ireland, under Class II.?
      THE CHAIRMAN: As I understand it, the hon. and gallant Member desired a Vote to be put in the Estimates this year for seed potatoes; but that has not been done, and therefore it is not a matter for the Committee.
      MR. HEALYasked whether the hon. and gallant Member would not be en-

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      titled to ask why a certain item was not put in the Vote, and why the Local Government Board had failed to put that item on the Paper?
      THE CHAIRMAN: That is not before the Committee at all. The hon. and gallant Member will have a right to ask that question in the House; but it is not before the Committee.
      THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON)said, he had made two or three efforts to answer the hon. and gallant Member; and he put it to the Committee whether it was not rather unreasonable that he should unexpectedly be asked to specify the position in which a particular individual, of whom he (the Attorney General for Ireland) could know nothing, was? All he could say was, that if the hon. and gallant Member would give him Notice, he would take care to inform himself upon the matter and give the result. [Colonel NOLAN: On Report?] He could not say he would do so to-morrow or Monday, but he would at the earliest opportunity. If the hon. and gallant Member could state that this person would promise not to do anything that was objectionable, he thought he could say there would be no difficulty about the matter.
      MR. HEALYsaid, the noble Lord had asked whether there was any intention to carry on these principles of Obstruction, There was no such intention; and the only thing the Irish Members claimed was an opportunity to discuss these Estimates. They required time to do that; and he himself had several questions which he intended to raise. It did not matter much to him whether he did so at 3 in the morning or at 3 in the afternoon, and he could not see how the noble Lord could consider his action Obstruction. The Motion for Progress might be withdrawn, and the items taken seriatim. The Chief Secretary for Ireland was not in his place; and it was a remarkable thing that when there were a number of Irish questions to be considered, the right hon. Gentleman was away enjoying himself in Dublin Castle or elsewhere. The Irish Members intended to discuss these items; and the noble Lord could not consider that there was any Obstruction in discussing them now, any more than at 4 o'clock in the afternoon. Owing to the extraordinary position of the Gentlemen on the Front Bench, they
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      could not expect to get on without Obstruction, and he thought the Committee had better enter into the matter with full heart. For instance, there were 600 suspects; and a question could easily be raised upon every one of those cases, and upon the salary of the Chief Secretary for Ireland; and the Prisons Board, &c. There were a number of questions as to the Prisons. He required to know something as to the conduct of the Governors, and the detention of suspects' letters. These things would be raised; and the Committee need not suppose that because the noble Lord brought on his Estimates at this hour, that was any reason for not discussing them. He intended to discuss them, and his only regret was that the Chief Secretary for Ireland was not in his place. Of course, they had great respect for the Attorney General for Ireland, who gave them all the information in his power; but when they came to discuss these matters, he would tell them that these matters were not in his Department, and they had better wait for the Chief Secretary for Ireland to return from Ireland. When a number of items were proposed—including his own salary, and £6,000 for his Office—that right hon. Gentleman ought to be in his place. He, therefore, protested against the interpretation the noble Lord had placed upon his remarks.
      SIR R. ASSHETON CROSSsaid, he thought it would be much better to discuss these items once for all. It would be no use discussing them partly now and partly on some other day; and, no doubt, the noble Lord could state that there would be some early opportunity of discussing these Estimates before the Vote on Account passed away, so that there might be one discussion, and not two.
      THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, he would be glad to give every assurance that was possible; but a great deal of time had already been promised, and it was impossible to say on what precise day there should be this discussion. It would be desirable, no doubt, to bring on these Estimates on the earliest opportunity, to give hon. Members a fair opportunity of discussing them; but it was impossible to fix the day.
      SIR HENRY HOLLANDasked whether, as the Committee was anxious

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      to get out of this difficulty, the noble Lord would say that the Irish items should take the first place?
      THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: It is impossible to say that.
      MR. O'DONNELLsaid, he thought nothing like a definite response had been made either to the appeal of the Irish Members, or to the appeal of the late Home Secretary. The doctrine apparently laid down by the noble Marquess, that the Government could escape all criticism by bringing in their Votes at 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning, was not a proposition which should commend itself to the Committee. He regretted that the noble Marquess had assumed that there was a disposition on the part of the Irish Members to do more than to legitimately discuss the items in which they were interested. The hon. Member for the Queen's County (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) had no other purpose in moving to report Progress than to obtain an assurance that an early day would be given for the discussion of these Estimates, feeling that they had no alternative but to discuss the items now if that assurance was not given. He did not think that course was convenient, or ought to be forced upon the House by the Government; and if the noble Marquess was not himself responsible for this state of affairs, but had been simply sent there to represent the Government without any instructions, and without any power to give a definite engagement, he thought those Members of the Government who had placed the noble Marquess in that position had hardly been fair to the noble Marquess, or to the Committee. He did not know whether his hon. Friends intended to go to a division on the Motion; but he certainly could not see that they had any alternative, in view of the nebulous response they had received, but to take advantage of the information they possessed regarding these items, and expose, at proper length, their objections. If the Government were not prepared with the requisite information, that was their own fault; and to bring forward demands for public money at this hour, without explanation and without definite statements when inquiries were made, was a most extraordinary mode of doing Business, and was not a mark of careful economy with regard to the time of the House.
      MR. BARRYsaid, if these were ordinary Estimates, it would be startling for the House to be called upon to vote them at this hour; but several of these items were of a specially contentious character. There were the Irish Prisons Vote, the Law Charges, and other Votes, which called for a great deal of investigation and discussion. Under the head of Public Works there were 10 or 20 cases of gross injustice which he intended to bring before the House. One was the case of a magistrate in Wexford. No one would suspect him of undue sympathy with magistrates; but here was a case of peculiar hardship on the part of the Board of Works in Ire land. He was very anxious that this case should be fairly sifted and inquired into; but there was very little chance of that being done at this hour of the night in a satisfactory manner. The noble Marquess stated that some time in the Session there would be an opportunity of discussing these Estimates; but, for himself, he would lose no opportunity now, or at any other time, of putting any obstacle he could in the way of Supply being granted to carry out the present infamous system in Ireland. It was very well for the noble Marquess to say there would be an opportunity; but he had consented before to Votes on Account, and then he had found, to his sorrow, that the opportunities for discussion were very limited indeed. He was inclined to think, on the present occasion, that the Irish Members should not consent—and he hoped they would not consent, if they stopped till next week—to money being granted to carry on the present evil system of rule in Ireland. The chance of future discussion would be very limited indeed; and he hoped the Irish Members would persist in their determination to oppose the Votes for Secret Service, and the Constabulary, and several other items in these Estimates.
      MR. BIGGARsaid, the present Government had introduced what seemed to him to be very much of an innovation—namely, a system of forcing on Votes of money at a very late hour. The late Government, as far as he recollected, never insisted on Supply after 1 o'clock in the morning; but the present Government had introduced what he held to be the unconstitutional principle of insisting on large sums of money being

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      voted at a time when there was no possibility of a proper discussion. For this reason, he thought the Government should either have agreed to report Progress and bring this Vote forward at some reasonable time, say, at a Morning Sitting, or some day next week; or have given a substantial and bonâ fide promise that an opportunity would be given for the discussion of Irish Estimates before the clôture came into operation, because it would be perfectly absurd to say they were to discuss the Irish Estimates with a power in the hands of the Government of stopping discussion at any time they liked before the Irish Members had pointed out their objections to particular Irish items. If the Government would undertake that before the clôture debates were finally ended time should be given for discussing these Irish Estimates, they might save a great deal of time and trouble; or, if they would agree to report Progress now, and bring forward these Votes at a reasonable hour, that would very much facilitate the progress of Business. But if the Government said they must have this money at 3 o'clock in the morning—these Votes not having been proposed until after 2 o'clock—he thought that was most unreasonable; and he must point out that the argument of the right hon. Gentleman who recommended the Irish Members to submit to this Vote on Account, that it was not the practice to divide Votes, was not consistent with the action of a Member of the Government who had moved to leave out the Education Vote until he got a promise of an opportunity of discussing that Vote. He did not wish to bind the Government to a particular day; but he thought that before Easter, before the discussions on the clôture came to an end, an opportunity for discussing these items should be given; and nothing would be lost by the Government through that course.
      MR. T. D. SULLIVANsaid, he thought the proposal to report Progress at 20 minutes past 3 o'clock in the morning, a very fair and reasonable one. There could be no doubt, looking at the headings of the Votes, that there were a number of items here which Irish Members could not allow to pass without challenge. They were bound to criticize these items on the earliest opportunity. They were told that "the Business of the country must be carried on." Well,
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      what was the Business of Ireland? What sort of business was being carried on there, and what was this money wanted for? It was wanted for the eviction of tenant farmers, for the payment of informers, and so on; and Irish Members were bound to meet the proposal for its appropriation on the very threshold, and challenge it. This Vote for Secret Service they objected to, holding that the application of the money was a fruitful cause of crime and outrage in the country. It tended to demoralize the people and create confusion and disorder in every part of Ireland. Similarly, the Irish Members had an objection to urge as to the payment of the Police Force, who were employed in harrassing ladies of the Land League, and taking up people without the shadow of a reason, except the whisper of some informer—of some magistrate or magistrate's man. The Irish Members were bound to meet this thing and arrest it at the outset. What could be fairer than to say to the Government—"Give us a reasonable and early day, give us a reasonable hour, and we will accept the offer; but to force us to go into a criticism of these Votes, which are so important to our country, at such an hour as this, is a course which is neither fair nor reasonable, and we protest against it."
      MR. HEALYsaid, he had not read the clôture Rules, and he did not care whether they were passed or not, either in their present form or 10 times more strongly worded. They did not affect the Irish Members in the slightest degree, and the Irish Members did not wish to talk about them; and he had no doubt, if the Government would give them a few hours on Monday, they would be easily able to say all they had to say and settle the whole matter as to these Votes. The Irish Members wished to expose the weakness of the proceedings of the Government in Ireland, and to do it in daylight. There should be daylight let into these proceedings; and the Irish Members, therefore, did not wish to discuss them at 3 o'clock in the morning, when what was said could not be reported. If the Government would give them Monday evening for the discussion of these matters, the Irish Members would agree not to debate them beyond 10 o'clock. By that time, no doubt, all who wanted to speak would have said their say. So far as he was

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      concerned he should not say a word upon the clôture, or do anything with regard to it until the division was taken. He ventured to say that his proposition was a reasonable one to make to the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Hartington).
      MR. SEXTONsaid, he thought the noble Marquess should by this time have fully appreciated the strange and embarrassing situation in which the Committee found itself. ["No!" and laughter.] That seemed to be amusing to hon. Members; but it would not be later on, if that which promised to be a bitter struggle was beginning. He would urge upon the noble Marquess the desirability of considering most carefully whether he should press on this Vote at the present time. The Government asked for £3,600,000—sufficient to carry on the Services for three months—sufficient to carry on the government of Ireland to the month of June; and the Irish Members had no means of knowing what facilities, if any, would be afforded them up to the end of the Session for discussing the agencies of misgovernment and oppression at work in Ireland, and which they felt bound to denounce on every occasion in their power. He could not accept the theory proposed to them by the Front Opposition Bench—that it was sufficient for them to discuss these matters once in a Session. He rather accepted the theory of the hon. Member for New Ross (Mr. Redmond), that the time for discussing these Estimates, and the spending of money for purposes Irish Members denounced, was whenever the opportunity offered itself. He should like to discuss these matters every day, if possible. He could not forget how futile were the opportunities granted them; nor, that when they put questions at half-past 4, they received offensive answers; nor, that when they put Notices of Motion on the Paper and held them over for months, when at last they got a few hours discussion, they were voted down by the House. He could not forget that it was impossible to get adequate attention paid to the Business of Ireland. He would remark that at this hour of the night, or morning, everything that they might say was lost within the walls of the Chamber, and had no effect, either on the Committee or on Ireland. What was it they
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      were asked to do? They were asked to give into the hands of the Government the money required to carry on every possible misgovernment in Ireland; and. he considered it would be a gross breach of public duty and breach of trust on the part of the Irish Members to sit there tamely, and in cowardly spirit allow this money to be taken. It was their highest, their inevitable duty, to protest against it on every possible occasion. The amount they were asked to vote was £3,600,000; two-thirds of which, probably, was for the misgovernment of Ireland. Take the Vote for Secret Service money—£6,000. How did they know to what purposes this money might not be applied? How did they know it would not be spent in stimulating the production of perjured evidence? How did they know that it would not be spent in paying people who came up at the request of Colonel Hillier—a base brood of informers that infested every country, and his poor country worst of all.
      THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member will be perfectly in Order in discussing any particular item when the Estimate is under consideration. At present, however, we are on the question of reporting Progress, and specific items cannot be discussed.
      MR. SEXTONthanked the Chairman. He wished to say that this Vote for Irish purposes would enable the Government to carry on the maladministration of Ireland till the beginning of next June. He saw nothing in the words of the noble Marquess to enable him to hope that he would give them an early opportunity of discussing these matters; but he could not wonder that the noble Lord had treated their appeals as he had done, seeing that the appeals of the regular Opposition who sat on the Front Opposition Bench had fallen on a heedless ear. No doubt there had been nothing objectionable in the tone of the noble Marquess; but he had listened with attention to what had fallen from him, and had failed to discover in it anything like a firm ground on which to resist the appeals of the Irish Members. The principle of the course adopted by Her Majesty's Government was radically vicious; and if there was anything more vicious it was the theory put forward from the Front Opposition Bench, that discussion was not proper

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      when Votes on Account were taken. When Irish Members of Parliament were in prison, for having committed no other crime than having been too strong opponents of the Government, and the demand was made for money to pay the cost of that imprisonment, could the Irish Members in the House be expected to sit still silently and vote that money? No; and he would say this—that, though he was not disposed to push the Committee to extremes, on his conscience—["Question!"]—this was the question—on his conscience, he should not feel himself entitled to desert a Member of the Irish Party to what extent soever, and in what mode soever he might push his opposition to this Vote. The money would go to pay those who harassed and pursued the ladies of the Land League, who were engaged in charitable work in every town and village of Ireland. Did the Committee think he and his Colleagues were going to sit tamely by and agree to a Vote on Account which would enable the Constabulary to continue this sort of thing? Certainly not. If they passed this Vote without the utmost protest it was in their power to make, they made themselves accomplices in the guilt of the Government—accomplices in a guilt which, in the minds and consciences of the Irish people, they would never be able to wipe out. He would close, as he began, by saying that he should to his utmost support any Member of the Irish Party in whatever mode he might at such an hour oppose the granting of this money.
      MR. GIBSONsaid, that, so far as he could find out, there seemed to be a great deal of anxiety exhibited to ascertain whether it would be possible, consistently with the due progress of Public Business, to obtain an opportunity for the discussion of some of the important representative charges of this Vote before another Vote on Account was taken. So far as he could gather, if there was any such opportunity possible—and he was sure he did not know whether there was or not—the granting of it would meet the objections taken. He did not himself pretend to be in the slightest degree acquainted with the mysteries of Supply; but he would venture to ask this question—would it be possible, before the expiration of the two months for which, he believed, this Vote on Account was
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      taken, to put down one or two of the Votes which were most likely to lead to conversation or debate as the first items some night when Supply was taken? He would not now specify the items; but probably they would be those relating to the Lord Lieutenant or the Chief Secretary. He did not know whether his suggestion would be consistent with the claims of Public Business; but, if it was, it might get the Committee over a difficulty.
      LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHsaid, the Government were most anxious to meet the wishes of hon. Members; but as to taking the Votes out of their order, he had repeatedly pointed out that nothing was more inconvenient than taking a Vote here and a Vote there. He could assure the Committee that the only anxiety of the Government would be to take the Votes in the manner and at the time that would be most convenient to the Committee.
      MR. O'DONNELLsaid, he would remind the Government that they had been asked to give an opportunity for a four hours' discussion on these Votes, but had refused. They had been asked not to fix a day, but to give an assurance that the Votes would be discussed before another Vote on Account was taken. This, however, they had not done, and there was no resource now left to the Irish Members, in the face of the attitude of the Government, but to discuss the Votes now, item by item. He hoped his hon. Friends would go to a division on this Motion for reporting Progress, to mark their sense of the conduct of the Government in bringing forward such Votes as these at this hour of the morning; but he hoped that, after that division had taken place, hon. Members would settle down to their work, and devote whatever energies they might have left to the discharge of their duties to their constituents. They must examine these Votes item by item, not at any excessive length, but fairly and sufficiently. He expected, of course, that the officials of the Government would give all the information which might be required on these items.
      MR. METGEsaid, he hoped the Government would see their way to accepting some of the suggestions which had. been made. He, for one, did not wish to challenge, much less to defy, on these matters; but he must say it was a point

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      of duty which, none of them could refuse to follow, the course pointed out by the hon. Member who had just spoken. It would have some effect on the public, even though they might not read reports of what was now taking place; because if the Government were kept in the House until Tuesday or Wednesday, or even Thursday—and it was not impossible for the Irish Members to do that, for they were young and strong—it would form a spectacle that would attract all eyes. It would be a spectacle that Europe would gaze upon. Who would be in the worse position before the world if such a thing occurred—the Irish Members who were contending for what they believed to be their Constitutional rights, or the Liberal and Radical Members who, despite their pledges to their constituents, repeated over and over again, were proceeding to force the Committee to pass a money Vote, at the same time refusing to allow them to discuss it? The effect of the Government policy would be to produce results of the most undesirable character, and he should say that the impression upon the public mind in England would be that there was something rotten in the affairs of a Government which proceeded by such means. Therefore, he should consider it his duty to oppose any of those Votes which came forward.
      THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, he was extremely anxious to arrive at some reasonable understanding which would meet the views of hon. Members opposite. As the Committee would be aware, he had already put in a protest against the practice of making use of the time at which Votes on Account were brought forward, for the purpose of entering into discussions upon the details of the Estimates to which those Votes on Account related. Now, the hon. Member for Dungarvan (Mr. O'Donnell) stated that the Government had been asked for a period of four hours certain for the purpose of discussing certain Votes, and refused it. But he would point out that the question which hon. Members desired to raise could be quite as well discussed upon the Report of the Vote, as upon the Vote itself; and, therefore, if it would meet their views to enter such protests as they desired to make on Report, he proposed that there should be a Morning Sitting on Tuesday for taking the Report, and this would place
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      at the disposal of hon. Members more than the space of time which the hon. Member for Dungarvan said would satisfy them. He made that proposal, of course, subject to an understanding being arrived at that the Government would be allowed to obtain the Report of the Vote within the limits of the Morning Sitting.
      MR. HEALYsaid, he thought it would be better to take the Report of the Vote on Wednesday.
      THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, that the time within which this Vote ought to be taken was becoming extremely short; were it otherwise, he should have been willing to adopt the suggestion of the hon. Member for Wexford. Under the circumstances he trusted the proposal he had made would receive the assent of hon. Members opposite.
      MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid, that the noble Lord had said that Irish Members could make their protests, and any other observations they had to put forward on Report; meanwhile the Government were to be allowed to have this Vote on Account. But he could assure the noble Lord that their protests were not meant for the air only; on the contrary, they intended to oppose the Votes in reality. The protest he had made, and intended further to make, did not apply to Irish Votes alone, but to the general system of taking all Votes at an hour when it was too late to bestow upon them the amount of attention and discussion which their importance demanded. He objected to the system altogether, and he trusted that the House would come to an understanding upon the question as to whether there was to be another Vote on Account asked for this Session, because, if that were to be the case, he wished it to be perfectly understood that he should do everything in his power to prevent its being taken. If necessary, he should divide the Committee against each Vote. But the noble Lord had made no concession to Irish Members. His proposal was merely that they should consent to the Vote, and go through the formality of protesting on Report at a Morning Sitting on Tuesday next. To suppose that they could do justice to the multitudinous matters they had to bring under the notice of the House within the limits of a Morning Sitting was simply to laugh at the wishes of Irish Members. The noble

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      Lord was entirely mistaken if he supposed that the offer he had made contained anything for which Irish Members ought to be grateful. On the contrary, Irish Members perfectly appreciated the littleness of the offer made to them; but, inasmuch as he (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) did not wish to be unreasonable, or to detain the Committee unnecessarily, and in view of the fact that, however long they might remain, the discussion at that hour would be of no practical value, he should be willing, with the concurrence of his hon. Colleagues, to ask leave to withdraw his Motion for reporting Progress.
      MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHYsaid, he thought his hon. Friends could not do better than accept the offer of the noble Marquess. He hoped, however, that the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant would be in his place on Tuesday morning, because he alone could answer and explain the points which would probably be proposed, on that occasion.
      MR. BIGGARsaid, he wished to detain the Committee for one moment before the Motion to report Progress was withdrawn. He believed the noble Marquess had said that there should be an understanding that the discussion should terminate within the limits of the Morning Sitting—that was to say, before 7 o'clock on Tuesday next. Now, although it was most probable that the discussion would end within the time named, he could not but regard this as an unreasonable pledge, which the Government sought to exact from Irish Members. No one Member of the House could bind others to such a limitation. Although, as he had said already, the probability was that the discussion would terminate before 7 o'clock on Tuesday, yet there was no possibility of any hon. Member knowing what others would have to say, and how long the discussion would be prolonged. He made these remarks for the purpose of showing that there was no formal pledge upon this point, one way or the other.
      Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
      Question again proposed,
      "That a sum, not exceeding £3,431,600, be granted to Her Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the Charge for the following Civil Services and Revenue Departments for the year ending on the 31st day of March 1883."
      Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
      Original Question put, and agreed to.
      Resolution to be reported upon Tuesday next, at Two of the clock.
      Committee to sit again upon Monday next.

      PARTNERSHIPS BILL.— [BILL 27.]
      (Mr. Monk, Mr. Gregory, Mr. Barran, Mr. Lewis Fry.)

      SECOND READING. ADJOURNED DEBATE.
      Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [22nd February], "That the Bill be now read a second time."
      Question again proposed.
      Debate resumed.
      MR. WARTONwished to know why the Bill was brought forward on that occasion?
      MR. MONKexplained that, with the consent of the President of the Board of Trade and the concurrence of the hon. Member for Liverpool (Mr. Whitley), it was about to be sent to a Select Committee, and it was now proposed to read it a second time, after which it would be committed pro formâ, in order that Amendments might be inserted, and the Bill be re-printed.
      Question put, and agreed to.
      Bill read a second time, and committed for Monday next.

      DUKE OF ALBANY (ESTABLISHMENT) BILL.
      Resolutions [23rd March] reported, and agreed to:—Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. PLAY-FAIR, Mr. (GLADSTONE, Secretary Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT, and Lord FREDERICK CAVENDISH.
      Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 112.]

    MOTIONS.

      ARKLOW HARBOUR BILL. NOMINATION OF SELECT COMMITTEE.
      Motion made, and Question proposed,
      "That the Select Committee on the Arklow Harbour Bill do consist of Five Members, Three to be nominated by the House and Two to be nominated by the Committee of Selection."—(Lord Frederick Cavendish.)
      MR. REDMONDsaid, he desired to alter this Resolution to the extent of making the number of Members six instead of five. His object was to include amongst the Members of the Committee

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      the senior Member for the County of Wicklow (Mr. Corbet), who was largely interested in this matter.
      Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "Five," in order to insert the word "Six,"—[Mr. Redmond,)—instead thereof.
      Question proposed, "That the word 'Five' stand part of the Question."
      LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHsaid, he thought that the number five, which was uneven, was more desirable than the number proposed by the hon. Member opposite. However, if great importance was attached to the proposal that the number should exceed five, he would suggest that it be accepted.
      MR. HEALYremarked, that his hon. Friend the Member for New Ross (Mr. Redmond) cared nothing whether the number of Members on the Committee was five or seven, so long as the hon. Member for Wicklow was amongst them. If the hon. Member opposite would agree to this there would be no further objection that he was aware of.
      MR. HERBERT GLADSTONEsaid, there would be no objection to seven.
      MR. R. POWERsaid, if the Committee of Selection appointed the hon. Member for Wicklow (Mr. Corbet) there would be no necessity to make an alteration.
      LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHsaid, he could give no such assurance.
      Amendment and Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
      Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Select Committee on the Arklow Harbour Bill do consist of Seven Members.—(Mr. Redmond.)
      Motion agreed to.
      MR. REDMONDsaid, he should, on a future day, move that Mr. Corbet and Mr. Barry be Members of the Committee.
      LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHpointed out that Committees were not only of a representative but of an impartial character. The Government, however, would have time to consider what they would do.
      Ordered, That the Select Committee on the Arklow Harbour Bill do consist of Seven Members, Five to be nominated by the House and Two to be nominated by the Committee of Selection.
      Ordered, That all Petitions against the Bill be referred to the Select Committee on the Bill, provided such Petitions are presented two clear days before the meeting of the Committee, and that such of the Petitioners as pray to be heard by themselves, their Counsel, or Agents, be heard upon their Petitions, if they think fit, and Counsel heard in favour of the Bill against the said Petitions.
      Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records.
      Ordered, That three be the quorum.
      Ordered, That Mr. HERBERT GLADSTONE, Mr. M'COAN, and Sir GEORGE BALFOUR be Members of the Committee.

      STATIONERY OFFICE (CONTROLLER'S REPORT).
      1. Resolved, That the present system, under which this House employs for its ordinary work a separate printer, working independently of, and without reference to, other Government contracts, is inexpedient, and be at the first convenient opportunity discontinued.
      2. Ordered, That the Lords Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury be authorised to make preliminary arrangements, and, at the proper time, to lay open to public competition, and enter into contracts to provide, in such manner as they may think best, for all the printing of this House, other than the printing of the Votes and Proceedings and Journals: provided that such contracts made, either separately or in connection with other printing for the Public Service, shall be laid before the House not less than forty days, and shall then take effect, unless disapproved by the House.
      3. Ordered, That all Papers printed by order of this House, or presented by Command of Her Majesty, other than those required for the use of Members or officers of this House, be placed under the custody of the Stationery Office; all such Papers to be as far as possible made easily accessible to the public by purchase, and the proceeds to be paid into the Exchequer.—(Lord Frederick Cavendish.)

      SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE.
      Resolved, That whenever the House shall meet at Two of the Clock, the Sittings of the House shall be held subject to the Resolutions of the House of the 30th day of April 1869.—(Lord Frederick Cavendish.)
      House adjourned at Four o'clock in the morning till Monday next.