Commons Sitting of 28 June 1877

MINUTES.
SUPPLY—considered in Committee—CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES—CLASS I. To VII. AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Matrimonial Causes Acts Amendment* [148].
Committee—Report—Saint Stephen's Green (Dublin) (re-comm.)* [216].
Withdrawn—Tramways* [165]; Maritime Contracts* [90].

VACCINATION ACT—PENALTIES.

  QUESTION.
  MR. GREENEasked the President of the Local Government Board, Whether his attention has been called to the meeting of the Liverpool Health Committee, reported in the "Times" on Saturday the 16th June, wherein it is stated that the father of a family of eight children had paid the fines rather than have his children vaccinated, and that no sooner did the small-pox attack one
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  member of the family than all succumbed and were lying in the hospital suffering from the disease; and, whether it is true that the anti-vaccinationists paid the fines inflicted on people for not complying with the Vaccination Act?
  MR. SCLATER-BOOTH,in reply, said, his attention had been directed to the case, and he had made some inquiries about it. He found that the father of the family alluded to resided in the township of Toxteth Park. A short time ago one of his children caught the small-pox, and the remaining seven took the disease. None of them had been vaccinated. One of them died, and the rest were lying dangerously ill in the workhouse of Toxteth Park. The family came from Glasgow about four months ago, where, according to the father's statement, he had been repeatedly fined for the violation of the Vaccination Law; but he stated that he paid the fines himself. Cases had been repeatedly brought under his (Mr. Sclater-Booth's) notice, in which it was distinctly stated that the fines had been paid by the Anti-Vaccination Society. To what extent that had been done he had no official means of informing the House.

  SPONTANEOUS COMBUSTION OF COAL—REPORT OF THE ROYAL COMMISSION.—QUESTION.
  MR. CHILDERSasked the President of the Board of Trade, What steps the Government have taken to carry out the recommendations of the Royal Commission on the Spontaneous Combustion of Coal at Sea?
  SIR CHARLES ADDERLEY: There were two special recommendations made in the very valuable Report of the Royal Commission over which the right hon. Gentleman presided—(1) that in order to make known the descriptions of coal liable to combustion, the Inspectors of Mines should inquire into all cases occurring in cargoes taken from their districts; (2) that exporters should record in their specifications the denomination of the coals in their cargo. The Customs at once undertook to carry out the second, and have caused a form to be filled up accordingly at entry outwards. The Board of Trade consulted the Home Office on the first recommendation, but no general rule has been found necessary. At a recent inquiry into a case of combustion before the Wreck Commissioner,

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  Mr. Rothery, he stated that Inspectors were not wanted, but that he had himself found this Report very useful, and, no doubt, in some cases, Inspectors might be useful assessors.

NAVIGATION OF THE RED SEA.

  QUESTION.
  MR. D. JENKINSasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, seeing the increasing importance of our trade to India and China by the Red Sea route, and the dangerous nature of the navigation and consequent serious loss of life and property in British ships which has taken place from time to time since the opening of the Suez Canal on approaching the African coast near Cape Guardafui, owing to the absence of a light, Whether there is any recognised authority in possession of that territory with whom Her Majesty's Government are prepared to enter into negotiations for the erection and maintenance of a lighthouse; and, if there is no such authority, whether Her Majesty's Government will take into consideration the advisability of occupying such territory as may be necessary for the purpose, and erecting and maintaining a lighthouse thereupon?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER,in reply, said, that Her Majesty's Government had for some time been impressed with the importance of the better lighting of the Red Sea. Whether the particular point, Guardafui, was the right point for a lighthouse was a question on which he understood there was some difference of opinion; but there was no difference of opinion as to the importance of making better provision for lighting that part of the coast. The Government were in communication with the Khedive of Egypt on the subject, and he hoped before long it would be in their power to come to some proper arrangement.

NAVY—H.M.S. "REPULSE."

  QUESTION.
  MR. P. A. TAYLORasked the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether he has any objection to produce the papers detailing the circumstances which led to the command of H.M.S. "Repulse" having been taken from Captain P. W. Wilson by his inferior officer Commander Vander-Meulen?
  MR. A. F. EGERTON,in reply, said, the facts of the case were briefly these—The captain of the Repulse during a passage home showed symptoms of aberration of mind, and was therefore invalided, and sent home in charge of the doctor, the command of the ship being taken over by the commander. It did not appear to the Admiralty that any public object would be gained by producing the Papers, and therefore he did not propose to lay them on the Table.

NAVY—GUNNERY LIEUTENANTS.

  QUESTION.
  CAPTAIN PRICEasked the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether it is the case that several gunnery lieutenants are now on half pay; and, if that is so, whether, considering the expense to the State at which these officers have been trained, he will consider the propriety of appointing them as supernumeraries to the gunnery ships, or elsewhere where their special knowledge may be of service?
  MR. A. F. EGERTON,in reply, said, it was true that a certain number of these officers—he believed eight—were on half-pay. It was not desirable to appoint them to the supernumerary list, as the staff for the gunnery ships was complete and fully adequate to meet the requirements of the Service. Moreover, such appointments could not be made without obtaining a Vote.

ARMY—LIEUTENANT COLONEL DAWKINS.—QUESTION.
LORD CLAUD HAMILTONasked the Secretary of State for War, If his attention has been called to a pamphlet circulated by Lieutenant Colonel Dawkins, late Coldstream Guards, on the Half Pay List, entitled "The Duke of Cambridge," and containing charges of the gravest character against His Royal Highness, as well as against other distinguished, officers, his military superiors; and, whether, having regard to the whole circumstances of Lieutenant Colonel Dawkins' case, he is prepared to recommend Her Majesty to dispense with that officer's further services?
MR. GATHORNE HARDY: In reply to my noble Friend, I may state that the pamphlet circulated by Lieutenant Colonel Dawkins, entitled The Duke of Cambridge,

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which is of a very extraordinary character, has been sent to me in common with other hon. Members. On becoming acquainted with its contents I directed that a letter should be written to Colonel Dawkins to ask him if he was really the author of it—because, of course, without proof of the authorship it would be impossible to proceed in the matter. To that letter no answer has yet been received. It was written three or four days ago. I am not quite aware of the fact, but I believe that Colonel Dawkins is not in town. I think until I have received some communication from the person responsible for the publication of a pamphlet of such a character I ought not to take any steps.
SIR ALEXANDER GORDONsaid, he happened to know that Colonel Dawkins was abroad.
LORD CLAUD HAMILTON: In the public interest I will repeat the Question on a future day.

RUSSIA AND TURKEY—AUSTRIAN POLICY.—QUESTION.
LORD ROBERT MONTAGUasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether he will lay upon the Table the protest sent by Count Andrassy on June 21st to Prince Gortchakow, at Plojesti, concerning the direct negotiations between Turkey and Russia, together with the previous negotiations between Austria and England, and Despatches between Austria and England concerning the Declaration of Independence by Roumania; and, whether Count Andrassy said that he would give those papers to the Hungarian Chambers if the British Government would consent to lay them upon the Table of the House of Commons?
MR. BOURKE: I am unable to lay upon the Table the protest which in the Question of the noble Lord is assumed to have been sent by Count Andrassy. We have no knowledge of such a document. There has been no correspondence between Her Majesty's Government and that of Austria-Hungary regarding the independence of Roumania. There are, therefore, no Papers that could be presented to Parliament. With regard to the statement alleged in the latter part of the Question to have been made by Count Andrassy, we have no information.

FOREST OF DEAN—SALE OF LANDS—QUESTION.
COLONEL KINGSCOTEasked the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether he is prepared to lay before the House the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown as to the powers possessed by Her Majesty's Commissioners of Woods and Forests to sell land in the Forest of Dean under the Act 10 Geo. 3, c. 50, s. 98, or under any other Act?
MR. W. H. SMITH,in reply, said, he had communicated with the Commissioners, and found that the opinion of the Law Officers had not yet been obtained. There had been a conference on the subject, and when the opinion was expressed he would state the substance of it. It was not usual to lay upon the Table the opinions themselves.

ROUMANIA—TREATMENT OF THE JEWS.—QUESTION.
MR. SERJEANT SIMONasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether information has been received at the Foreign Office respecting the atrocities lately committed upon the Jews in Roumania, where, according to accounts through public and private channels, the Jews in the district of Darabina were attacked, and, without reference to age or sex, brutally ill-used, their houses sacked or pulled down, their property destroyed or plundered, and over a thousand persons, including women and children, wounded, many of whom have since died of their wounds; whether information has reached the Foreign Office of similar outrages in Jassy, where a synagogue and many of the houses of the Jews have been pulled down or burnt, their property plundered, and several hundred Jews reduced in consequence to a state of destitution; whether Her Majesty's Government will cause inquiry to be made respecting these alleged proceedings, and, if true, use their good offices to induce the Roumanian Government to punish the offenders and give redress to the injured Jews; and, whether they will at the same time endeavour to impress upon the Government of Roumania the importance and the duty of adopting a course of treatment towards the Jews in that Country more in harmony with the usages of civilised Government?
MR. BOURKE: The only Report that has reached Her Majesty's Government, with regard to the ill-treatment of Jews in Roumania, since the Reports that are on the Table of the House, is contained in a Report from the Vice Consul at Jassy, dated the 15th of April last, relative to an outrage on two Jews at Vashü by the police of that town. One of these was a Russian subject, and a representation was made by the Russian Consul to the Procureur Général upon the subject and redress was promised. With regard to the outrage said to have occurred at a place called Darabina, to which the first Question of the hon. and learned Gentleman refers, no account of that outrage has reached the Foreign Office; but the Consul General at Bucharest has been ordered to address inquiries to the authorities upon the subject, and if such an outrage has occurred representations will be made by the Consul General to the authorities upon the subject and the same remonstrances will be made by the Consul General as have been made in similar instances before.

MERCANTILE MARINE—HOLYHEAD HARBOUR—WRECK OF THE "EDITH"

  QUESTION.
  MR. FRENCHasked the President of the Board of Trade, Whether it is a fact that the steamship "Edith" has now been allowed to remain in Holyhead Harbour, where she is sunk, for a period of nearly two years; whether any accidents have occurred in consequence of her being allowed so to remain; whether she is not in a very dangerous position, and in the direct way of the mail boats approaching and leaving the pier; and, if he can inform the House when she is likely to be removed?
  SIR CHARLES ADDERLEY: The steamship Edith, belonging to the London and North-Western Railway Company, was sunk in a collision in Holyhead, harbour on September 8, 1875, and still remains there. The only accident which has come to my knowledge is the destruction of the apparatus for raising her, which was caused by the mail boat St. Patrick running on to the wreck, on a calm and light morning, on the 31st of October last, and for which collision the Admiralty Court has pronounced the St. Patrick alone to blame. Though
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  this wreck is unquestionably in the way of navigation, no other craft has touched her. The owners, the railway company, and their contractors, are doing their utmost, at great expense, to remove the wreck, which they would have done already but for the destruction of the apparatus by the steamboat. They have now nearly got the gear repaired and ready for lifting the vessel. A telegram has been put into my hands in which they say that no attempt has yet been made, but an attempt will be made at the end of next week, or the beginning of the following one. The circumstances of the case are detailed in a Parliamentary Paper which was laid on the Table of the House in March last.

  CRIME (IRELAND)—MURDER OF MR. YOUNG.—QUESTION.
  MR. E. JENKINSasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, What steps have been taken by the Irish Executive to discover the perpetrator of the murder of Mr. Young, J.P., county Roscommon, and of an attempt to shoot a Mr. Barrett, of county Galway; whether these two gentlemen were shot at in broad daylight; whether it is not known that one at least of the outrages was perpetrated in the presence of a number of witnesses; if he would state how soon after the commission of the crimes steps were taken by the Government to discover the perpetrators; whether rewards have been offered for such discovery in both cases; and, whether there is any reason to believe that these outrages are of an agrarian character?
  SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH: Mr. Young and Mr. Barrett were both fired at in broad daylight, but it is not known that either of the two outrages was perpetrated in the presence of a number of witnesses. In Mr. Barrett's case it was reported that some persons were working in the fields near; they stated they heard the shot, but took no notice of it, believing it had been fired at some crows. Immediately after Mr. Barrett had been fired at two suspected persons were arrested, and another has since been apprehended. In Mr. Young's case no sufficient evidence has as yet been obtained to warrant the arrest of any person. In both cases rewards have been offered for the discovery of the perpetrators of the crime, though in a somewhat different manner.

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  In Mr. Young's case, in addition to a reward of £500 offered by the Government, over £1,000 has been locally subscribed for the same purpose; and I cannot but hope such an expression of public opinion, coming, as it has, from persons of all classes of society, may not be without effect, both in leading to the discovery of the murderer and in deterring evil-disposed persons in the neighbourhood from similar crime. Other steps have been taken by the Government, including the strengthening of the local constabulary force, but I do not think it advisable to state them in detail. I fear there is some reason to suppose that one of these crimes was of an agrarian nature.

VACCINATION ACT—CASE OF J. ABEL.

  QUESTION.
  MR. PENNINGTON (for Mr. HOPWOOD)asked Mr. Attorney General, Whether he is aware that another summons was, on the 19th instant, issued against Joseph Abel, Faringdon, for the vaccination of his child Frederick Joseph Abel under 30 and 31 Vic. c. 84, s. 31; and, whether it is discretionary with the justice, under the words "he may if he see fit," to refuse to make the order to vaccinate?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL: I am not in possession of any information with respect to the case of Joseph Abel's child, and therefore I am unable to inform my hon. and learned Friend whether another summons has been issued. With regard to the legal point upon which I am interrogated, I beg to state that in my view a magistrate who acts under the 31st section of the Vaccination Act, 1867, acts judicially, and may make an order or not as he pleases. In this sense he has a discretion; but I consider that a magistrate who, after it has been clearly proved before him that a child has not been vaccinated, and that there is no reason why the operation should not be performed, should exercise his discretion by declining to make an order for vaccination would disregard his duty, just as much as another magistrate would disregard his who, after the commission of an offence had been clearly established by evidence, should exercise his discretion by declining to convict the offender. In conclusion, I beg to refer my hon. and learned Friend to an authority bearing on this question—
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  namely, "Morisse v. the Royal British Bank," reported in the 26th volume of The Law Journal.

  POST OFFICE—CLOSING OF TELEGRAPH OFFICES.—QUESTION.
  MR. W. BECKETT-DENISONasked the Postmaster General, If he would explain what is the reason of the issue of the circular from the Post Office (No. 10), dated the 18th inst. whereby fifty-four Telegraph Offices at stations on the North Eastern Railway have been suddenly closed to the public; whether the reason of twenty-two other offices at stations on the same Railway having, by the same circular, been reduced to offices for collection (i.e. despatch) only of messages from the public is that the Post Office declines to allow the Railway Company, sixpence for the first mile in the delivery of messages received at such stations, and requires them to deliver the messages free of charge within that limit; and, whether, in view of the great inconvenience that will be caused to the public by this action on the part of the Post Office, the Postmaster General will take measures to restore the status quo with regard, at any rate, to the last-named stations, as soon as possible?
  LORD JOHN MANNERS,in reply, explained that in several instances the Post Office having incurred the expense of opening post offices in the immediate vicinity of those stations, deemed it inexpedient to retain the offices at the railway stations in question. Careful inquiries had, however, been made in the circumstances of each particular case before a decision in the matter had been arrived at. Twenty-two other offices at stations on the same line had been closed as regarded the delivery of messages, because the Post Office had been informed by the Railway Company that it was difficult to find messengers to deliver the telegrams.

MERCANTILE MARINE—LIME JUICE.

  QUESTION.
  MR. ANDERSONasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, If he has considered the difficulty British ships trading between foreign parts have had in procuring fortified lime juice; and, if he has made such alterations in the Customs regulations as will enable them in future

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  to have it freely exported to them without their coming home for it?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Yes. After consultation with the Board of Trade authorities and the Custom House officers, the Treasury have decided to allow lime juice, after having been fortified in accordance with the law, to be exported from the Customs' warehouses as general merchandize, and not to confine that privilege to juice intended only for ship's stores for particular ships. Orders to that effect will be given by the Custom House without delay.

  THE CONFESSIONAL—"THE PRIEST IN ABSOLUTION."—QUESTION.
  MR. WHALLEYasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether it is the intention of the Government to adopt any measure for the protection of members of the Established Church against the Confessional practices of such of the clergy of that Church as recognises the doctrines disclosed in the book called "The Priest in Absolution," having regard to the Act known as Lord Campbell's Act, which prohibits the publication of such doctrines and practices?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I must confess that the last part of the Question appears to me to be not altogether intelligible. I have looked at the Act to which it refers, and I do not see that there is anything in it relating to "doctrines and practices;" but with regard to the main Question which the hon. Member puts, I do not see that there are any measures which the Government could adopt in this matter, and I must venture to express my own opinion that members of the Church will find their best protection against any mischief from the practices to which he refers in the fact of those practices having been disclosed and made a matter of public notoriety and reprobation.

ILLEGITIMATE INTESTATES' ESTATES (SCOTLAND)—PATERSON'S ESTATE.

  QUESTION.
  MR. ERNEST NOELasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether, considering the unanimous opinion in Scotland expressed by the votes of Scotch Members in the Division on Tuesday evening, he will recommend
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  the Treasury to re-consider their decision regarding the disposal of the personalty of the late Mr. Paterson?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER,in reply, said, the decision of the Treasury in the case of the personalty of the late Mr. Paterson was taken after full consideration, and in conformity with the usual practice of the Treasury and with the provisions of the law. It was challenged by the hon. and gallant Member for Ayrshire (Colonel Alexander); but the House, after a discussion, affirmed the view taken by the Government. Under these circumstances he did not see any reason for re-considering the decision which had been arrived at.

  METROPOLIS—THE PARKS—VOLUNTEER DRILLS.—QUESTION.
  MR. COOPEasked the Secretary of State for War, If he is aware of the great inconvenience that arises from the crowds of spectators in the parks of the Metropolis on the occasion of the drills or inspections of the Volunteers, making practice in battalion drill, and especially in the new formation for attack, almost impossible; and, whether he is prepared to adopt such measures, by mounted police or otherwise, as may check this evil, and enable the Volunteer Forces to carry out satisfactorily the drills required of them?
  MR. GATHORNE HARDY: I must inform my hon. Friend that the Parks are under the jurisdiction in certain cases of the Rangers, and in the others of the Office of the Board of Works:—the Secretary of State for War has no jurisdiction over them. But in consequence of similar complaints to those to which my hon. Friend has referred, I applied to the Home Office in 1875, and they undertook that a mounted Police Inspector and eight policemen should attend when the Volunteers were going through their summer drill. I believe that can now be done if notice be properly given.

  ARMY—OFFICERS OF THE AUXILIARY FORCES.—QUESTION.
  MR. PRICEasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether any rule or minute exists at the War Department prohibiting officers of the Auxiliary Forces from holding two commissions at

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  the same time in different branches of those forces, and, whether it is not the case that certain officers now hold commissions other than honorary commissions at the same time in the Militia and Volunteers; and, if so, whether any special exception has been made in the case of these officers?
  MR. GATHORNE HARDY: There are very few instances in which officers of the Auxiliary Forces hold two commissions at the same time in different branches of those Forces. This has been permitted by a Regulation, which says that—
  "Every officer holding active commissions for more than one branch or two such commissions in the same branch of the Auxiliary Forces will elect before the 1st April, 1873, which he wishes to retain, and will resign the other, unless it be shown to the satisfaction of the Secretary of State that the relaxation of the rule in particular cases would be advantageous to the public service."
  There are also other rules of a similar character.

MARITIME CONTRACTS BILL.

  QUESTION.
  MR. HAMONDasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether it is his intention to proceed with the Maritime Contracts Bill this Session?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: This is a Bill which touches such large interests, and raises such important questions that, although it had been carefully considered by the Government before it was introduced, we feel it will be only right before proceeding with it to give an opportunity of discussing it before a Select Committee. We have not been able to find a day for the second reading, and at this period of the Session it is almost impossible to get the Bill read a second time and carried through a Select Committee and the subsequent stages. Under those circumstances we propose to discharge the Order.

  NAVY—H.M.S. "ALEXANDRA"—THE REPORTED MUTINY.—QUESTION.
  CAPTAIN PIMasked the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether he has yet received any Report from the Commander in Chief of the Mediterranean Fleet of the circumstances in connection
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  with the late disturbances on board Her Majesty's ship "Alexandra;" and, if so, whether he has any objection to lay such Report or further information upon the Table of the House?
  MR. A. F. EGERTON,in reply, said, that no further Report than that to which he referred in reply to a similar Question a few days ago had been received with regard to the disturbance; but in a private letter from the Commander-in-Chief in the Mediterranean to one of the members of the Board of Admiralty it appeared that the first Report, of which he gave the substance in his Answer, furnished all the information which was available on the subject.

  ELEMENTARY EDUCATION ACT—SCHOOL DISTRICTS IN LINCOLNSHIRE.—QUESTION.
  MR. CHAPLINasked the Vice President of the Council, Whether any progress has been made in surmounting the difficulties in the way of the formation of school districts in the Fens surrounding Boston; and, if so, how soon the first notices of his Department with respect to those districts are likely to be issued?
  VISCOUNT SANDONsaid, that the formation of school districts in the Fens about Boston was a matter of no ordinary complication, and he was sorry to say that when he saw his way to a settlement fresh difficulties had arisen. He could not at that moment say how soon the notices would be issued; but no time would be lost, and the difficulties would soon be overcome.

  THE COLORADO BEETLE.—QUESTION.
  MR. MARK STEWARTasked the Vice President of the Council, If his attention has been called to a report in the "Pall Mall Gazette" announcing that the Colorado beetle has made its appearance in a district in Germany; and, if any precautions have been adopted to prevent its introduction in England?
  VISCOUNT SANDON: I am not surprised that the hon. Gentleman should address to me a Question on this subject, owing to the great interest which it has excited. Since I saw the announcement in the newspapers with respect to the appearance of the Colorado beetle I have

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  communicated with the Foreign Office, and they telegraphed at once to the different ports to ascertain the truth of the report. I am sorry to say that this afternoon I heard they had received a statement from the Consul General at Cologne confirming the report. The telegram is as follows:—
  "Colorado beetle was found with numerous larvae, in a potato field near Mülheim. Yesterday, before the authorities, the field was fired with sawdust and petroleum. One beetle was seen on wing. It is feared the plague may spread."
  Without waiting for this answer, the Privy Council wrote at once to the Commissioners of Customs asking them to give instructions to their officers at the various ports to keep a special look out for the arrival of these destructive insects. The Commissioners of Customs have been for many years alive to the importance of this subject, and, as long ago as March, 1875, they issued a Circular to their officers to examine carefully all the potatoes that came from America, and to destroy by fire all particles of potato haulm or stalks, as well as loose soil. In November, 1876, the Commissioners issued another Memorandum, with an engraving of the beetle. We have also thought it desirable to republish at once and circulate a Memorandum issued in last October by the Canadian Minister of Agriculture, describing the habits of the beetle and suggesting the best means of getting rid of it, should it unfortunately appear. A coloured engraving of the insect is appended to the Memorandum. If my hon. Friend will look at these Papers, and thinks them of public interest, I shall be happy to lay them on the Table of the House.

EAST INDIA (MAJORS OF ARTILLERY).
  PERSONAL EXPLANATION.
  MR. GATHORNE HARDYsaid, that on Monday evening he had made a statement respecting Sir John Adye which had been variously reported. He had not meant to express his opinion as adverse to the claims of the Indian Majors, but had been, in fact, the medium of communication between the India Office and the War Office, without being in favour of the course pursued. Some of the reports might possibly have produced a contrary impression.

SUPPLY—COMMITTEE.
Order for Committee read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

INLAND REVENUE—COLLECTION OF TAXES.—RESOLUTION.
MR. SAMPSON LLOYD,in rising to call attention to the injustice and inconvenience occasioned by compelling private individuals to undertake the collection of Income Tax, Inhabited House Duty, and Land Tax; and to move—
"That the practice of imposing compulsorily on private individuals the duty of collecting Income Tax, Inhabited House Duty, and Land Tax, is unjust and inexpedient, and that Her Majesty's Government be requested to make provision for discontinuing it,"
said, that in many rural parishes under the present system there was no great hardship, because in them the duties were light, and in very large towns, such as Liverpool and Birmingham, where the duties were not light, the gain was considerable, and there was no difficulty in getting a regular rate or rent collector to undertake to collect these taxes. But there were cases of towns not of the first order in point of population, and suburban districts of the largest towns, which might be in a different county, and there very great hardship was felt. In these places a multitude of small sums, perhaps two or three thousand ranging from 6d. up to several shillings, had to be collected, and the poundage was quite insufficient to yield adequate remuneration. Independent gentlemen or large merchants, to whom it was the greatest possible hardship to be taken from their business, and also hard-worked tradesmen, were nominated to collect these taxes. If they declined they were fined £20, which was a large sum for a small tradesman, and if they escaped they had often, as he was informed, to pay black mail. He knew of more than one instance in which the choice of the persons nominated could be attributed to no other motive than spite or a desire to give annoyance. It often happened that with a gentleman whose responsibilities extended to many thousands of

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pounds a colleague was associated of whom he knew nothing, who could neither read nor write, and was not even familiar with the English language. In one ease a respectable chemist was appointed, and a colleague was given him who could neither read nor write. In another a gentleman went to live in Wales; he was appointed over and over again; he could not speak Welsh, and had to travel five or six miles over a mountainous district to discharge the duties of his office. In another case a man had to leave his business for six weeks, and the total amount of poundage which he received was only 36 s. 6d. In another case a man out of his own resources had to pay the Commissioners £300 in advance for money he had not got in. The manager of the North Staffordshire Railway wrote to him to say that he had been appointed to collect these small sums, he had been obliged to get another to discharge the duties, and not only had he to pay the man a large sum, but he was personally responsible if the man ran away. At Stockton a collector failed, the Government had not got his sureties' bonds signed, and therefore the sureties were not liable. The Government, instead of losing the money, re-assessed the unfortunate people who had paid the tax once, and had got a receipt for the money. Several paid the tax, others resisted, and had their goods seized, one man to the amount of £20. There were many similar cases. With respect to the land tax the trouble of collection was very much increased when such small sums as 6d. had to be collected. The main objection to the income tax was much graver than that of the trouble, annoyance, and expense. It was specially offensive to a large class that a tradesman in a suburban district should have the duty of going round and ascertaining the amount of income tax his rivals had to pay, and in that way a considerable number of persons became acquainted with the affairs of their neighbours. This was a grievance which slumbered, but he had no doubt we should hear a good deal about it before long. He did not see why a man should be compelled to collect house duty, land duty, or income tax any more than he should be compelled to clean the Foreign Office, sweep the road, and so on. All he asked was that the Government should find a
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remedy for the grievance. There were two or three remedies which might be suggested. In the first place, the Inland Revenue might be got to collect the taxes directly by officers of its own. But that might be considered too expensive. The clerks to the Commissioners had an interest in these things, and were opposed to reform. But if they were paid by fees for work done, he knew on very good authority that the Inland Revenue Office was perfectly willing to do the work, and all that was wanted was an enactment by which the Inland Revenue Board might unite parts of divisions for taxing purposes, whether in the same county or not. He trusted the Government, having had their attention called to the reality of this grievance, would do what they could to apply a remedy.
MR. MUNTZseconded the Motion. He could bear his testimony to the fact not only that the grievance existed, but that it had, in fact, become intolerable. It was said to be a remnant of a very old system under which disagreeable impositions were practised on the people; but the older it was the greater the necessity for its removal. The evil might be remedied by compelling the collectors of poor rates to collect these taxes also, allowing them the remuneration that was now allowed to individuals in the way of poundage. Some of the collectors objected to take that course; but there was no reason why they should not be compelled to do it, or why, if it were necessary, an Act of Parliament should not be passed for the purpose. That course was already followed in several parishes, where one collector was employed to collect the poor rate, the house tax, and other taxes. In that way it was made worth the while for a respectable man to undertake the work.
Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "the practice of imposing compulsorily on private individuals the duty of collecting Income Tax, Inhabited House Duty, and Land Tax, is unjust and inexpedient, and that Her Majesty's Government be requested to make provision for discontinuing it,"—(Mr. Sampson Lloyd,)
—instead thereof.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERobserved, that he had very little to urge in opposition to what had been said with respect to the existing system by the Mover and Seconder of the Motion

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before the House. He had more than once admitted the inconvenience which resulted from the present practice. Not only had he admitted it, but the inconvenience had been recognized by his Predecessors, and on former occasions attempts had been made to remove the difficulty by proposals to assign the duty of collection to the officers of the Inland Revenue. But those proposals, he was bound to say, had not been received with very great favour. In fact, they had been very strongly objected to, and it had been found impossible hitherto to get the officers of the Inland Revenue to do the work at all. The proposal that they should leave the collection where it was profitable, to those who now carried it on, in order that they might continue to receive the considerable sum which they divided by way of poundage, and that the Government should undertake the duty where the collection would be unprofitable was scarcely a fair one, and he thought a change, if made, must be a more general one; but difficulties had hitherto been found to impede any settlement. This, however, he would say, he had never given up the idea of making some change in the present practice, and he should be ready on consultation with the Inland Revenue Department to make a serious endeavour to meet the difficulty which had been mentioned, and of which he was perfectly sensible. The Government had hoped that the passing of a Valuation Bill might afford some facilities for making an improvement in the present state of things, and the matter had rather stood over in consequence; but he would undertake, on the part of the Government, to look again carefully into the subject, and see whether it was possible to adopt any reasonable plan which would avoid the difficulties of the present system.
MR. MUNDELLAfelt a good deal of satisfaction at what had been said by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The system complained of was made the means of extortion which rankled a good deal in the minds of those who were subjected to it. A few days ago he had put in the hands of the Secretary to the Treasury a letter from a tradesman of Sheffield who had been called upon to collect these taxes—a task which it was shown would have so occupied his time that he must in consequence neglect his own business. He asked for instructions, but was simply
416
laughed at, and was told if he paid so much money to a certain person he would get rid of the responsibility. One placed in that position had to employ persons in whom he had no confidence, and if those persons were defaulters he must make good their defalcations. It was hard that he should be asked to undertake duties with which he was not acquainted, and not be informed as to what the duties were, and that he should have to pay black mail to somebody else to do the work for him. It was a kind of extortion which ought to be subjected to some sort of punishment or rendered impossible.
MR. J. G. HUBBARDreminded the House, with regard to what the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said as to the Valuation Bill being a probable medium for effecting an improvement in the present practice, that with the same object in view he had himself placed on the Notice Paper a special clause to enable the local rates and the Imperial taxes to be collected through the same channel. Consequent on that Notice many Petitions had been presented from influential local bodies in support of the proposition, and he had received letters speaking of it as likely to prove advantageous both to the public and to the Government. It was a matter of Imperial importance, and ought to be considered.
MR. SAMPSON LLOYDintimated his readiness, after what had fallen from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to withdraw his Motion.
On the Question that leave be given to withdraw the Motion, there being several "Noes"—
Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and agreed to.
Main Question proposed.

EAST INDIA—MR. FULLER AND MR. LEEDS—INDEPENDENCE OF JUDGES OF THE HIGH COURTS.

  RESOLUTION.
  MR. LOWE,who had a Notice on the Paper to call attention to a Despatch from the Secretary of State for India to the Governor General of March 22nd, 1877; and to move—
  "That in the opinion of this House, the power of the Crown to remove Judges of the High

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  Courts of India who hold their office during Her Majesty's pleasure, ought to be exercised on the same principles as if they held their office during good behaviour and not otherwise,"
  said, the question he had undertaken to bring before the House was of such transcendant importance that he should make no apology to the House for bringing it in at once, omitting the circumstances out of which it arose. The subject itself was quite sufficiently large, and he should not go into the details of the occurrences which gave rise to it. Suffice it then, to say that owing to differences of opinion which had arisen between the Governor General of India and the Supreme Court of the North West Provinces, a reference had been made to the Secretary of State for India, proposing to him certain questions of very momentous importance in regard to the status and position of the Judges in India. On the despatch upon which he founded his observations—which was the last in the Papers, bearing date March 22 of this year, which raised these questions—the Secretary of State for India made what seemed to him a very sensible remark. It was to the effect that the questions submitted to him were merely speculative. They did not arise out of circumstances which had occurred in India, and which he had made the subject of another despatch, and were speculative questions. He thought the Secretary of State for India was right in saying so, and for this reason—the Judges complained of being censured by the Government for certain opinions they had expressed, but these were not judicial opinions. They were not given under the requisite protection for judicial opinion, and were not given after the hearing of both sides. If Judges chose to give opinions without hearing both sides, although their opinions might be very valuable, they were not entitled to that protection which was, and ought to be, thrown over judicial proceedings. But then what surprised one was, that as the matter was, in his opinion, merely speculative, the Secretary of State did not go on to say that as it was only a speculative question he declined to give any opinion upon it. He thought the Secretary of State for India would have taken a wise course if he had said—"The case has not yet arisen; when it does, I shall be prepared to give my opinion, but meantime I decline." How-
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  ever, he took a different course. He se out distinctly what the questions proposed to him were, and he gave an answer to them; and it was those questions and that answer to which he (Mr. Lowe) wished to call the attention of the House. A point more important had seldom arisen before the House than that which arose upon this Correspondence. It was infinitely larger than the Secretary of State or those who advised him seemed to have had any idea of when they entered into the question. The Secretary of State said the questions submitted to him were—(1) Whether the Judges of the High Courts were subject to the authority of the Governor General in Council; (2) whether it was within the province of His Excellency in Council to publicly approve or condemn the action of the Courts in matters which fell clearly within their functions; and (3) whether in India the Courts enjoyed the independent authority and prestige of the English Courts. He could not tell what advice the Secretary of State took in the matter; but he might not unreasonably have said they were questions to be decided not by the Secretary of State, but by high legal and judicial authorities. However, the Secretary of State appeared to have had no misgivings; he launched into the whole subject, and treated it in the most summary and decisive manner. He did not, indeed, answer them categorically; but he went into an argument in which he clearly implied that, in his opinion, the Judges of the High Courts were subject to the Executive authority of the Governor General; that it was right for the Governor General to condemn or approve the action of the Courts in a public manner; and that the Indian High Courts did not enjoy the independent authority and prestige of the English Courts. In short, all three questions were answered in the negative. It might also be here mentioned that the Governor General had also referred certain questions to the Secretary of State; whether he, the Governor General, was not, as the head of the Executive Government in India, responsible for the administration of justice; whether he had not a right to punish the Judges—the Imperial Judges as well as inferior Judges—for any miscarriage of justice, and whether he had not a right to pass public censure on them in regard

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  to the administration of justice if he thought proper. Neither of the despatches noticed the questions of the Governor General at all; and as the Governor General said he would go on doing as before until he was told it was wrong, it might be taken that the questions were answered in the affirmative, just as the other three questions had been answered in the negative. Such was the present state of things. Everything claimed by the Governor General was conceded; everything claimed by the High Courts was repudiated; and all that remained to be seen was the principles and reasons upon which the Secretary of State's decisions was based. The Secretary of State contended that there was a vital difference between the position of Indian and English Judges. The Secretary of State said—
  "Until the Act of Settlement all English Judges held their office, as Indian Judges do now, during Her Majesty's pleasure. When Parliament desired to assure their independence and to withdraw them from the authority of the Executive, it enacted that their commissions should he made 'during good behaviour.' But when Parliament set up the existing High Courts of India in the year 1861, it did not think fit to adopt towards them the same policy which had been adopted and maintained towards the Courts in England. On the contrary, it was specially enacted that the Judges in all the Courts established under the Act of 1861 should 'hold their offices during Her Majesty's pleasure.' It appears to Her Majesty's Government impossible to treat this difference, deliberately established between the Indian and the English Courts, as accidental and inoperative. In withholding from the Indian Judges the independence of the Executive, which had been on a solemn occasion formally conferred upon the English Judges, Parliament must be taken to have fully intended the consequences of the important distinction which it was sanctioning. The right to dismiss any person holding an office carries necessarily with it a right to indicate the conduct which may, if persisted in, incur dismissal. In other words, it involves the right to approve or condemn the action of the officer who is so liable to be dismissed…This appears to me to be in strict right the relation subsisting between your Government and the Judges in India. But it is not necessary for me to state to you that, as a matter of policy, any Executive action trenching on the independence of Judges in the exercise of their purely judicial functions, could only be justified by reasons of extreme necessity."—[East India (Mr. Fuller and Mr. Leeds) Parl. p. 173. 1877.]
  In other words, the Secretary of State for India was distinctly of opinion that Judges in India were dependent on the Executive, and did not enjoy independence; that it was lawful for the Go-
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  vernor General to threaten those Judges, to point out things for which he might be induced to discharge them; and that, as a matter of right, he might interfere with them in the exercise of their purely judicial functions, though, as a matter of policy, it might not be advisable to do so, except in extreme cases. Anything more important or momentous could hardly be imagined. He would endeavour to combat as well as he could those statements, and show that they were utterly groundless and fallacious. In the first place, the conclusion was not established by the premisses. The conclusion was, that the Governor General had a right to interfere in the administration of justice—that it was dependent on him, and that he had the power of lecturing the Judges publicly or privately. That, he apprehended, must from the nature of the case be a mistake, and for this reason. The Prerogative of dismissing Judges rested with the Queen, during whose pleasure they held office. But, as the House knew, Her Majesty did not exercise this or any other power, except on the advice of a responsible Minister. Now, who was the responsible Minister in the present case? Not the Governor General of India, who was a mere deputy holding delegated powers, but the Secretary of State for India. So that Lord Salisbury's argument amounted to this—that because the Queen, by the advice of the Secretary of State for India, could remove an Indian Judge, therefore the Governor General, who had no power to advise Her Majesty on the subject, should have all the power implied by the words that the Courts of India were dependent upon the Executive. It was manifest that the difference between a Minister who was responsible for the act of the Crown, and a person who acted as a deputy of the Crown with delegated powers had been overlooked, and that the authority claimed for the Governor General ought only to be exercised by the Secretary of State in Council. Therefore, accepting all Lord Salisbury's premisses, the conclusion to be drawn from them was that the Governor General had none of the powers attributed to him. But that was a very small part of the case. This matter was argued by the Secretary of State entirely on the ground of the tenure of office—solely as a question of tenure. It was said that

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  "until the Act of Settlement, all English Judges held their office as the Judges in India do now, during Her Majesty's pleasure." That statement was entirely inaccurate. It was a matter of dispute amongst antiquaries, whether from the earliest times our Judges did not hold their office during good behaviour. Hallam, Coke, and others might be cited as authorities on this point. The Act which gave the Judges their present status was the Act 12 & 13 Will. III. During the whole reign of William the Judges held during good behaviour. In such an important document, it was extraordinary that trouble had not been taken to ascertain the ordinary details relating to the question. Assuming that the Judges held office during the pleasure of the Crown, and not—as those in England virtually did—during the pleasure of Parliament, did that fact really entail all the consequences which it seemed to be supposed resulted from it? If not, there was nothing to be said. It was a purely metaphysical statement, drawn from some abstract opinion, and might have been written of some country which had no history at all. This was not a metaphysical question, to be dealt with by clever dialecticians. It was not a question merely as to the meaning of a form of words. The answer to it must be gathered from the course of English history. The notion that Judges who hold office during the pleasure of the Crown, and were by virtue of that tenure placed at the disposal of the Executive, and exercised as such no freedom in administering justice, was an absolute figment, and had no foundation in history. If the House looked carefully into the matter, they would find that it did not turn at all on the question of tenure. In fact, the question of tenure had been so little regarded, that we did not know what had been the tenure in the case of our early Judges; and it mattered not really what it was, because whether they held from the Crown or during good behaviour, the Crown being the Judges as to good behaviour, it came very nearly to the same thing. The important point was—who had the power to turn out the Judge; and the real security which our Judges enjoyed was not to be found in the words "during good behaviour," but in the fact that they could only be turned out with the consent of the two Houses of
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  Parliament. In the olden times—which it might seem pedantic to refer to, but the due consideration of the question made it necessary—the thing which was looked to as the security of the integrity of the Judges was not at all the tenure, of which, as he had said, there was no trace whatever, but was the Judge's oath. The oath was this—
  "That he will serve the King and indifferently administer justice to all men, without respect of persons; take no bribe, give no counsel where he is a party; nor deny right to any, though the King, by his letter or by express words, command the contrary; and he is answerable in body, lands, and goods."
  Again and again, in arbitrary times, when the Judges resisted the importunities of the Executive, their answer was, not that their tenure was so and so, but that their oath bound them. The first case he would allude to was that of Chief Justice Hussey, in the reign of Henry VII.—one of the most arbitrary Princes who ever sat on the Throne of England. Chief Justice Hussey besought Henry VII.—
  "That he would not desire to know their opinions beforehand for Humfrey Stafford, for they thought it should come before them in the King's Bench judicially, and then they would do that which of right they ought; and the King accepted of it."
  The next case he would cite was still more remarkable, for there they found the Judges discharging the duties of the House of Commons, rather than acting as the passive slaves of the Crown. In the reign of Queen Elizabeth the Judges prayed for an audience of the Queen, and having obtained it, took the liberty of admonishing her with reference to the committal or detention of persons, by the command of Nobles or Counsellors, against the law of the Realm. It did not appear that the Queen was at all displeased with their conduct. Then, in the Case of Commendams, it appeared that the King—one of the Stuarts—signified to Chief Justice Coke, through the Attorney General, that he would not have the Court proceed to judgment till he had spoken with them. The Judges certified to His Majesty that they were bound by their oaths not to regard any letters that might come to them contrary to law, but to do the law notwithstanding; that they held with one consent the Attorney's letter to be contrary to law, and such as they could not yield to, and

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  that they had proceeded according to their oaths to argue the cause. Those were Judges who probably held during the pleasure of the Grown. By the arbitrary Act of James I. Coke was dismissed for his resistance. No doubt terror was practised by the Stuarts, more or less, upon the Judges, and they were made to do things which were quite contrary to their oaths and to their sense of duty; but though these things were done, they were never done as a right, and were never justified. No one was ever bold enough to say that the tenure by which the Judges held office gave the King the right to direct them in their duty. Falkland—who shed his blood in the cause of the Stuarts—said in the course of a speech in the House of Commons, at the time of the Long Parliament, referring to Queen Elizabeth—
  "The Queen, in the 29th year of her reign, erects a new office in the Common Pleas, and grants it to her servant Richard Cavendish. She sends to have him admitted. Four preremptory letters the Judges refuse, on the ground that the place belongs to others. At last they write that the Queen had taken her oath for the execution of justice according to law, that they did not doubt that when Her Majesty was informed that it was against law she would do what befitted her. For their parts, they had taken an oath to God, to her, and to the commonwealth, and if they should do it without process of law before them, and only upon her command put the other out of possession, though the right remained, it were a breach of their oaths; and, therefore, if the fear of God were not sufficient, they told her the punishment that was inflicted on their predecessors for the breach of their oaths in the time of Richard II. might be sufficient warning to them. The Queen, hearing these reasons, was satisfied, and the Judges heard no more of the business."
  Looking at these cases, and taking into account not the tenure merely, but all the concomitant history, it would be seen how little foundation there was for the arguments which had been used for the purpose of establishing in India a dangerous doctrine which would place the judicial administration under the heel of the Government. There was a passage which he would read from Lord Clarendon, which showed what was expected of the Judges at the time when the question of Ship Money was brought before them, and it was all the more remarkable, because it was written by one who was inclined to make as little as possible of such a matter. He said
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  that the people did not so much care what was done as to benevolences and Ship Money or anything else, for that it pleased them to give their money to the King; but that they drew a great distinction between the King and the Judges, and that they did not consider the Judges were covered by the authority of the King. Lord Clarendon added—
  "The danger and mischief cannot be expressed that the Crown and State sustained by the deserved reproach and infamy that attended the Judges being made use of in this and the like arts of power, there being no possibility to preserve the dignity, reverence, and estimation of the laws themselves but by the integrity and innocency of the Judges."—[Bk. I. p. 70.]
  They at that time felt that the Judges were bound, just as much as we considered our Judges to be in more favourable circumstances now, to administer justice with impartiality, and the passages which he had quoted fairly showed, he thought, that the tenure on which the whole of the argument of those who took the opposite view of the question was based had nothing to do with it; and that, in accordance with the Constitution of England, it had always been held that whether a Judge held during pleasure or not, he was bound by the oath which he had taken, and liable to the most severe punishment for its infringement. In the reign of Richard II. Chief Justice Tresillian had been hanged because he had given an extra-judicial opinion at Nottingham to the King. No doubt that was an act of revolutionary violence, but what was remarkable was the ground they chose to justify their deed. There had always been respect in this country for the judicial office, and it was held that it should be independent and free, until this ground had been taken up at the present advanced period of the world. Before he closed that part of his argument he might observe that Lord Clarendon, in one of his speeches said, that the Twelve Judges were "like the support of the throne of Solomon—under the throne in obedience, but yet lions." There were many hon. Gentlemen now in the House when the present Act for creating judges in India was passed, and he felt quite sure that if the point now at issue had at the time been raised in any way, the doctrine which was set up would have met with a most indignant negative.

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  But it was said that Parliament meant to make the Indian Courts dependent on, and subject to, the authority of the Executive. Now, the only reason in favour of that view was the preservation of a tenure which he had shown to be consistent with the noblest ideas of judicial independence. But here he touched on firmer ground and escaped from metaphysics. The Commission which framed the present law never meant anything such as that for which the Government now contended. Their object was to get rid of the Sudder Court, which was an Oriental Court, and to establish a High Court much after the model of our English Courts. Under the direction of the late Master of the Rolls (Lord Romilly), Chief Justice Jervis, and many other eminent men, it was intended that the Judges should be treated all alike; and he, as a witness, could state with the greatest confidence that it never entered the minds of the Commission to found a Court which could in any way be placed under the authority of the Executive or subjected to the indignity contemplated by the despatches before the House. But it was contended that the Judges, because removable at the will of the Crown, were under the control of the Crown. But if that were so, what was to become of the Lord Chancellor? We were in the habit of looking at the Lord Chancellor as the highest of our Judges, yet he had always held office at the pleasure of the Crown. Was it, therefore, to be supposed that he was less independent than any of the other Judges, or that Her Majesty had any right to interfere with him in the administration of justice? But let him go a little further: The case of the Colonial Judges under Burke's Act was in point. Almost all the Colonial Judges at the time when he himself was in Australia held their offices during the pleasure of the Crown. Yet he ventured to say that in no respect were they regarded as being less independent than the Judges in Westminster Hall. Now, if the tenure of the Colonial Judges did not deprive them of independence, why should it be held to deprive the Judges in India? If the doctrines which he had laid down were challenged, then, the same thing must be upheld in the Colonies as in that country. Were the Government prepared for that? Was there, he would
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  ask, anything ever done so rash and inconsiderate as to raise a question of enormous magnitude on account of a trifling squabble in a police-office court, and to take a step which ought not to be taken except on the fullest information and after the most mature consideration? No such right as that which was now contended for on the part of the Government had, he maintained, ever before been claimed by an English Executive. There was, in reality, no right to dismiss. There was a power to dismiss which, like all powers conferred by the law, must be exercised within the duty of the person exercising it and with reference to the purposes for which the power was given. Such a power would confer no right to interfere with the administration of justice. The Queen could do nothing wrong; but did that imply that a wrong would not be done if a murder were committed by the Sovereign? It implied, he contended, an absolute insult to Royalty when it was maintained that such was the absolute power of Her Majesty over the Judges that she might exercise any influence she pleased in the administration of justice. The right course for persons clothed with the power of dismissal to pursue was to guide themselves in all respects by the practice of Parliament; and if the independence of the Judges was good for England and the Colonies, why should it be an evil to India? One of the very first principles of good government was the separation of the judicial and the Executive power, and any attempt to confuse the two together was an attempt to go back to the worst and lowest periods of our history. It was said, however, that the Executive had the right to interfere. In the beginning of the last century, Holt, then Lord Chief Justice, gave a decision adverse to the decision of the House of Lords in the case of "Ashley and White." But when the House of Lords called him before it for having delivered a judgment by which he set aside the jurisdiction of the House, Lord Chief Justice Holt said—
  "I hold an authority independent of yours. I gave my reasons for the judgment in that place in which I had sworn to administer justice. By the House of Lords I look to be protected and not to be arraigned, and I will not assign the reasons on which I founded my judgment."
  He did not think that the power to dis-

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  miss a Judge gave any right to approve or condemn his conduct. In 1834 Mr. O'Connell moved for a Committee to inquire into the conduct of Baron Smith, for the purpose of his removal from the Bench, and the Government of the day agreed to support the proposal on the condition that that part of the Motion which related to the dismissal of the Baron should be dropped. In the debate which took place on the subject, the late Sir Robert Peel said, that—
  "If—on light and frivolous complaints, nay, on plausible allegations of inadvertency or error—Select Committees of the House of Commons are to be appointed for the purpose of examining into the conduct of the Judges, or if those Judges may be dragged before such tribunals, you may fill your Statute Book with laws professing to secure their, independence, but their independence is a hollow and a miserable phantom…You must feel and know that the authority of the Judge is extinguished the moment that he is summoned before you as a suspected and accused Minister of Justice; not only is his individual character gone, but the blow you aim at him strikes at the independence and authority of the judicial station."—[3 Hansard, xxi. 304–6.]
  But, notwithstanding that eloquent appeal, the Motion was agreed to. Only a week intervened, however, before the feeling became so strong that the Opposition moved to rescind the vote. Sir James Scarlett, a leading authority, said—
  "If the Motion were carried, all the Judges in Ireland must lose their confidence; and if they had any independence, they would all resign."—[Ibid. 318.]
  Mr. Shaw also expressed the matter extremely well on the 21st of February when he said—
  "If the conduct of a Judge could be inquired into with any other view than to address the Crown for his removal, then he would say that the independence of the Judicial Bench was a mockery; and the statute of George III. was no better than waste paper.…A primü facie case sufficient to justify the removal of Baron Smith from the Bench ought to be made out before the House could proceed with the inquiry."—[Ibid. 713.]
  Sir Robert Peel spoke again, being even more eloquent than he was on a former occasion—
  "He denied the wisdom—the prudence—the justice—of arraigning a Judge, unless upon some charge of personal corruption—of gross and grievous neglect of duty, warranting his removal from the Bench.…They had not grounds to address the Crown for his removal. Was it fitting that they should attach a label of partial infamy round the neck of this high
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  officer of justice, and then send him to administer the law to others?…If they felt in their heart and conscience that he must still continue in the administration of the trust—was it not for the public interest that he should stand erect, not only in the consciousness of innocence, but in the possession of the public esteem and respect? To appoint a Committee was evading the law …because if the Judge was a man of honour, and if the House implied the slightest censure against him, his own sense of propriety would tell him that he could no longer remain effective as a Judge."—[Ibid. 744.]
  These were the feelings of English statesmen 40 years ago; but we had fallen very far from that language when a Secretary of State could screw himself up to say that he had a perfect right to interfere with the administration of justice, and to indicate the grounds on which he would dismiss a Judge, although he confessed that as a matter of policy he had better not trench on the administration of justice except in very extreme cases. There was a statute called Burke's Act, passed in 1782, by which Colonial Governors were empowered to remove Judges, the latter being allowed an appeal to the Queen in Council. India was not included in that statute, solely because it was not one of the plantations or settlements of the Crown at the time. Could it be argued that, because merely by that accident India was not included, her Judges were to be placed in the position of being liable to removal at the arbitrary will of the Governor General? We had chosen to assume the enormous trust of the government of India. We could not give the Natives self-government; but though we were compelled to govern them by arbitrary power, we might give them what was the greatest check against arbitrary power—namely, a pure and independent administration of justice. It was impossible to maintain the position which had been taken up in regard to this matter. There was only one mode of getting free of the question—namely, by placing the Indian Judges in some way or another at least upon a level with the Judges in our Colonies, so that they could not be moved without having the power of appealing to Her Majesty in Council, and to retract the argument that because these Judges held their positions during the pleasure of the Crown, therefore the Governor General, who was the deputy of the Crown, should have the power of controlling and removing them. He had

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  brought this subject forward, not in the least with a view of making an attack on the Government or on his noble Friend the Secretary of State, but because he was overwhelmed and crushed by the magnitude of the question, which had been so lightly and inconsiderately raised, and, in his opinion, so improperly decided.
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLsaid, although he was not able to follow the constitutional arguments of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lowe), yet, as he had been a Judge of the High Court for some years, and had also governed a province in India, he might be permitted to state his experience with regard to the question before the House. The real point involved was that, not of turning out Judges, but of criticising their conduct. In India we had adopted a despotic government, but we might check the exercise of despotic power by setting up a tribunal which should be above the Government, and which should do justice to the people of India. Such a tribunal was set up in the last century, and was called the Supreme Court. It soon became apparent that a very high view of its judicial functions could not be maintained. A scandal arose, and it was found necessary to clip its wings, and, as a matter of fact, its power was reduced to very narrow limits. Its jurisdiction was made a personal jurisdiction of a very limited character, and it was expressly precluded by Parliament from interfering in any manner concerning the revenue of India. That, then, was a Court confined within very strict limits in its jurisdiction. But side by side with it there existed a much greater Court, with wider functions, the jurisdiction of which extended over all India—a Court which was independent of the Government, according to the system established by Warren Hastings and Lord Cornwallis, while the Sudder Courts were appointed by the Government, and exercised their functions under its control. He might compare its position to that of the English Lord Chancellor, who did not hold office by a tenour independent of the Government, but who at the same time exercised his judicial functions without any reference to the Ministry. A few years ago it was thought proper to combine the two Courts, and to form a single Court which should unite the functions of
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  both. The Legislature considered that it would be quite impossible to give it a position so entirely independent as that of the Supreme Court; and, when that Court was constituted, claimed for itself several very large powers of control which it had not before possessed. There was, for instance, a complete power of legislating for the High Court, the Judges of which, unlike those of the Supreme Court, were in many ways under the control of the Government, though they enjoyed much judicial independence. The result of his experience, after seeing both sides of the shield, was that their position was well understood, and that there was no imputation on their independence as Judges, though they might be liable to removal as officials. They were in no respects open to suspicion, and if they ever displayed any bias in a case in which the Crown was involved, it was almost invariably against the Government. That being their position, it was only natural that from their very independence errors would sometimes occur, or even scandals. But their jurisdiction was limited and checked in various ways. There was an almost unbounded power of appeal, and facilities not only for reviewing judgments, but even for new legislation to an extent unknown in this country. Under their peculiar circumstances, if once it were known that there was a power wholly independent of the Government, it would be necessary to double the Army. A great part of our dominion in India depended on what was called our prestige—that was, a belief in the irresistible power of the Government. It was necessary, if India was to be well administered, that the Natives should be impressed by contact with a solid and uncontrollable power, and therefore no Courts of Law could be wholly independent of the Government. No doubt, it was not likely that Judges would ever have to be actually removed for misbehaviour, but the Government could not do without the power of doing so if necessary. That was a matter of theory, but in that case the Secretary of State was justified in saying that a Judge's conduct might be criticized as though he were an English Judge. But the real question was whether criticizm, was to be confined to extra-judicial acts or not. He was very ready to accept the view that the judicial acts of the

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  Judges ought to be independent of the Government; but he was inclined to believe it desirable that a distinction should be drawn between judicial and extrajudicial acts. His own opinion agreed very much with the view expressed by Sir Erskine Perry in Council when he said that the real question was not whether the Government had a right to censure the decision of the Supreme Court of Justice or to punish inferior Judges for judicial indiscretions, but whether the Government had displayed a wise discretion, and whether they had treated Mr. Leeds, the magistrate, with justice. That view appeared to him not inconsistent with the principle laid down by the Secretary of State, that the Executive, in trenching on the domain of the Judges in the exercise of their judicial functions, could only be justified by extreme necessity. Although the right hon. Gentleman who had brought this subject before the House had not gone into the details of the Fuller case, yet, as that case had given rise to this discussion, it was right to touch upon it. He wished to apply to the Fuller case the principle he had laid down—that, though the ultimate power must lie with the Executive, that power should not be exercised except in cases of extreme necessity. In his opinion the Fuller case was not such a case. The action of the Government had been to force the magistrates to deal with a certain class of cases in a particular way, in some respect contrary to the opinion of the High Court, and he thought they had improperly censured the High Court. The ground on which the Government founded the necessity for interference was that this was not an isolated case, but one of several in which very insufficient sentences had been passed. He believed that was so, and that there was occasion for a remedy. But the proper remedy was not to censure the Judges, but to amend the law. According to the penal code of India at present, if one man struck another with the intention of killing him it was homicide, but if he had no such intention, even if death should result it was not homicide. This was a case in which it was perfectly certain there was no intention of killing, and therefore, according to the law, the offence was not homicide. He believed the law was bad, because the fear that a blow might lead to homicide prevented
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  many homicides. It was not the fault of the magistrates that they were obliged to follow it. But there was a great difficulty when we came to deal with European British subjects, who up to 1872, when an Act was passed in which he had a considerable share, were a privileged class above the law. Having had until lately the privileges of a superior conquering race, now that they were subjected to the law we must be very careful that the law was not strained to punish them; for, after all, there was a very strong public opinion in India brought to bear upon magistrates, who must not be forced to strain the law. It was said by the Government that if there was any doubt about the Fuller case the magistrate ought to have sent it to a higher Court. But, having great experience in such matters, he must say that was not the practice in India. The practice was that a man was not to be committed to a higher Court for trial unless the magistrate was satisfied there was evidence to convict him. In this case there was no such evidence, and therefore he thought the magistrate was right in the conclusion he had come to. There was a strong feeling in India that it was necessary to restrain Europeans from violence against the Natives, and therefore it should be made clear that no such violence would be permitted. At the same time, he would say that it was a great injustice to the administrators of the law, to the Government, and to the Civil Service of India, high and low, to suppose that there was any disposition on their part to ill-use the Natives. They had, on the other hand, a most earnest desire to protect the Natives, and any allegation to the contrary was a most unfair accusation, not justified by the facts. In this case, however, the magistrate might have failed to award adequate punishment to the offender; it certainly could not be said that he had been actuated by any unfair prejudice in favour of a European British subject. In fact, Mr. Fuller was not a European; he was what was generally called an East Indian. He was glad to observe that since the visit of the Prince of Wales to India there was an increased disposition to treat the Natives kindly, and he hoped that would continue to be the case; but in doing justice to the Natives they must be careful to do justice to their own servants, who were

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  administering the government of a great Dependency far away and under great difficulties. They ought to be treated fairly and considerately in a case like this; where the law was doubtful it should be made clear, and any failure in administration ought not to be attributed to any real misconduct on the part of the magistrate.
  MR. FAWCETTstrongly sympathized with the Secretary of State for India, and if this Motion were pressed to a division he should support his policy; but, as the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lowe) had distinctly impugned the conduct of the Secretary of State, it seemed without precedent that no reply should be given to the two important speeches which had just been delivered. He could not take on himself the responsibility of defending the Government; but he appealed to the Treasury Bench, in justice to the House and to India, to say what they had to allege by way of defending the policy of the Secretary of State. If that were not done, the impression that would be produced in India would be that the Government had absolutely nothing to say in defence of his policy. A more clear, distinct, concise, and emphatic declaration of policy than that contained in the despatch alluded to had never been published in a Parliamentary Blue Book; and it was due to the importance of the subject that some defence should be made from the Treasury Bench of the policy which had been impugned.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERALsaid, he had certainly intended, with the permission of the House, to offer some remarks on this subject; but he thought it would have been better if some of the other Gentlemen who were going to speak had preceded him. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lowe) had drawn the attention of the House to much antiquarian and interesting matter; but he would have been wiser to have applied himself to the question before the House, which related to an actual case of recent date, to which attention was first drawn by the Indian Press. He (the Solicitor General) understood that one reason for Mr. Leeds's judgment was, among other things, that Fuller was not a European, and that it was very improbable that a European would so behave. [Sir GEORGE CAMPBELL said, he was an East Indian of European extraction.] The case was
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  brought before the magistrate on the allegation that Puller had caused the death of his servant by an act of unlawful violence. Fuller was waiting for his carriage, being about to go to church on Sunday, and on his servant for whom he was waiting coming up he inflicted the violence. The servant almost immediately afterwards fell to the ground and died. That was the state of the facts when the case came before Mr. Leeds. On the inquiry four witnesses were examined. Three of them stated that they saw Mr. Fuller kick the deceased in the stomach, and it was proved that death resulted from rupture of the spleen. One witness—the coachman—did not contradict the evidence of the other three, but stated that he had not seen Mr. Fuller kick the deceased. It was true, as the hon. Member (Sir George Campbell) had said, the Indian penal code did not determine the degree of criminality to be greater in the case of the death of an assaulted person than a mere assault, if there was no intention to kill, and Mr. Leeds treated this as a common assault. And now what was the error of Mr. Leeds? He took on himself to decide that the true character of the offence was simply a pulling of the hair and the striking a slight blow, and that therefore he was entitled, according to the Indian penal code, to disregard the fact of death. He made two mistakes. In the first place, he seemed to have assumed, what was contrary to all rules of evidence, that the fact that one witness out of four did not see what the other three independent witnesses had deposed to necessarily derogated from their evidence; and, in the second place, whether this was a serious case of manslaughter, or only an ordinary common assault, ought not to have been decided by himself. Mr. Leeds should have remitted the case to a superior tribunal, where it would have been decided by a Judge and jury. A similar question might arise before any stipendiary magistrate in London in the event of a charge of wounding being brought before him. Suppose in such a case, where four witnesses had sworn that they had seen a knife in the hands of the accused and had heard him use threats towards the injured party, the magistrate took upon himself to decide the question and to treat it as a common assault, punishable with a small fine.

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  If the magistrate took such a course he would very properly receive a rebuke from the Secretary of State; and yet it was said that by administering a similar rebuke in India there had been an invasion of the jurisdiction and of the independence of the Indian Courts of Justice. If the view which some persons had taken of this matter were correct, every magistrate would be placed upon exactly the same footing as the Lord Chief Justice of England. No such position of independence occupied by a magistrate was recognized by either the law or the practice of this country. The independence referred to by the right hon. Member for the University of London was confined to certain great officers who were entrusted with the performance of particular functions. Turning to what had subsequently happened in this matter, it was clear that Mr. Leeds had made a great mistake. That gentleman had made the excuse that he believed it to be primâ facie improbable that a European would kick his servant in the way described. If they were dealing with probabilities, for his own part he should have thought it highly improbable that a European gentleman would pull his servant's hair or strike him on the head, and therefore he was unable to appreciate the subtle distinction which had been drawn between probabilities in the case of Mr. Leeds. Then, again, Mr. Leeds said that there were no external marks of violence on the deceased. It was, however, alleged that the cause of death was a kick on the stomach, causing rupture of the spleen. Now, a kick on the soft part of the stomach would most likely leave no marks of external violence, and therefore the reasoning of Mr. Leeds was open to considerable objection. He did not desire to be too hard on that gentleman's reasons for the decision at which he had arrived; but it appeared to him that in a case of alleged violence to a Native by a European, it became of the utmost importance that the Government of a country like India should teach the subject-races that those who occupied the superior position and possessed the education of Europeans were not allowed to abuse those advantages by behaving tyrannically to the Natives, and they would have been neglecting their duty if they had not by every means in their power sought to enforce that principle.
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  What did the Government of India do? They called the attention of the High Court to the circumstances of the case. And here he wished to point out that the strangest misapprehension as to what they had done had arisen. The High Court, besides its judicial functions, exercised functions of superintendence over inferior tribunals of an Executive character, and the appeal made by the Government to the High Court involved the exercise of the latter to the entire exclusion of the former. Much misapprehension had arisen in consequence of these two distinct functions of the High Court being confused together. It seemed to be thought that all that the High Court had power to do was to have brought up the case to their own Court, and there to have increased the sentence, which they could only have done upon the hypothesis that the offence charged was of a graver character than that of an assault. The complaint made was not that the sentence passed was too light, but that Mr. Leeds, instead of doing what he ought to have done and remitting the case to a higher tribunal, had improperly taken upon himself to adjudicate upon it. It was this conduct on the part of Mr. Leeds that had led the Government to appeal to the Executive functions of the High Court. Those functions, which they had derived from the old Sudder Court, had cast upon them the duty of rebuking and of calling in question the conduct of the magistrates and of the other judicial functionaries throughout India; and, therefore, it was their duty in the case now under the notice of the House to have rebuked Mr. Leeds for his conduct in taking upon himself to determine a matter which he should have remitted to a higher tribunal for decision. It was the failure of the High Court to take that step and to exercise its Executive functions in this respect that had led to the Governor General of India calling their attention to the matter. To this communication from the Governor General, the High Court returned the somewhat curt answer, that in their view there was nothing in the sentence that had been passed to call for particular observation. But that was not the question which was raised by the Governor General. The High Court appeared throughout this discussion to have assumed that there was only one course open to them

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  in the matter, and that was to treat the case as if it had been brought before them on appeal. It was a mistake to assume that that position had ever been taken by the Governor General. The point raised by the Governor General throughout had been, that the conduct of Mr. Leeds had been such as to warrant the Natives in thinking that, as the accused was a European, Mr. Leeds had chosen to treat it as a trumpery assault, when, if the case made out by the evidence of four witnesses was to be accepted as accurate, it was one of a somewhat bad manslaughter; the only ground for disbelieving their evidence being—first, that one witness did not see what they stated occurred; and, secondly, the probabilities of the case. It was a great pity that this controversy had ever arisen. But it was a controversy which had been rashly invoked by the High Court themselves, in consequence of their declining to exercise their functions of superintendence over an inferior tribunal, and of claiming for themselves absolute independence, not as regarded the exercise of their judicial functions, but of that of their Executive functions; and their doing so had given rise to this dispute, which both he and the Secretary of State for India deeply lamented should have arisen. It was necessary for the Secretary of State for India either to admit, or deny this claim, and he was quite justified in assuming the right to criticize, and even, if necessary, to censure the conduct of these judicial authorities. Without undervaluing the authority of the right hon. Gentleman, he must frankly say that he could not concur in the opinion he had expressed. What was really the matter to be discussed was the Act of 1861, which made the tenure of the Judges of India "during the pleasure of the Crown." Those words were not used unadvisedly. Now, if any question arose as to any judicial or other office, the first question put by a lawyer was whether it was held during pleasure, or during good behaviour. It was enough to say that it was the deliberate view and intention of Parliament that the Judges in India should hold their offices during pleasure. But so far from accepting this position, the Judges of the High Court claimed to be in exactly the same position as the Judges in England. That being so, what was the
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  principle on which the policy or impolicy of such a system ought to be decided? It would be admitted that it might be unadvisable to make the Judges of some of our Colonial dependencies perfectly independent. Even at home some checks had been found necessary; and in 1861, an Act had been passed to take away the independence of coroners, and to make them responsible to the Lord Chancellor for the time being. Who were the Judges of the High Court? What functions did they exercise? And how were they to be made responsible? He submitted that, as a matter of fact, they were under the jurisdiction of the Executive Government, and that, as a matter of policy, they ought so to be. Was it without meaning that they held office during pleasure, according to the recommendation of the Commission, and that the Governor General was entitled to remove them, subject to the pleasure of the Crown? The right hon. Gentleman would not contest that they were liable to be removed. They presided over Courts under circumstances where they were liable to no other check than that of the Executive Government. Every act done by that Government and by the Secretary of State for India was subject to the review of Parliament, and to the action of public opinion at home. The High Court had jurisdiction over 30,000,000 of people. It was composed of five members, only two of whom had received a legal education. It had a Bar of 10 persons practising before it. There was only one newspaper published there, and no considerable European population existed. For such a body to claim to be absolutely independent of all check and control was claiming more than the Judges at home, because in this country, where all manner of checks existed, the Judges were responsible to Parliament, and might be removed on the Address of both Houses. In India the Legislative Council was prohibited from discussing anything but a Bill that was before it; and the only way in which this question could have been raised in the Council would have been by a Bill for the removal of the Judge. The Council was not like the House of Commons, which could discuss all topics of interest to the public, and there was no other institution to act as a check upon the most absolute tyranny

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  practised by persons in the position of Judges. When the question was put and the Government was invited to express its opinion whether these Judges were as independent as the Judges in this country, or rather more so, it became necessary, as a matter of policy, to consider what position they held. Here we had the Press and the Bar; no one could over-value the benefit which accrued to the State from the active and vigilant observance of the conduct of the Judges by a Bar able and willing to make any complaint against misconduct or oppression; and the Press gave publicity to all judicial proceedings in every kind of Court. What a contrast between India and this country! And yet it was proposed to give the High Court of India an independence which was not enjoyed by any Judge in this country. The Privy Council took no cognizance of Indian criminal cases, and with no Bar, no Press, and no European public opinion within hundreds of miles, these Indian Judges, freed from responsibility, owing no obedience, and resenting anything like criticism on their conduct, would enjoy an absolute independence which would not be conducive to the interests of India, and would encourage the Natives to believe that our one object in being there was simply to get all we could. He was not suggesting that any one of these Judges had been guilty of misconduct; but it was known as a fact that in the administration of justice Judges had been known to say that they would not believe the oath of a Native, and one Judge had been heard to use words which, if not at once checked by the Executive, would have thrown India into a blaze of revolution; and was it to be allowed that, in such a condition of things the Judges were to be allowed to exercise a jurisdiction subject to no check whatever? He regretted that the question should have been challenged at all; but when the question was raised and the Governor General and the Secretary of State were asked—"Do you concede to us that we are absolutely independent and are entitled not to be criticized by the proper Executive authorities?" only one answer could have been returned—namely, that they must be subject to the criticism of the Executive, for there was no other; but that they might rely upon its not being exercised rashly, or inconsiderately, espe-
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  cially as it would itself be exercised under the supervision of the British Parliament, and if anything improper or oppressive was done a remedy could easily be found in the censure of the Minister.
  SIR HENRY JAMESsaid, he agreed with the hon. and learned Gentleman in feeling deep sympathy with the Governor General of India and the Secretary of State in their endeavours to secure full justice to the Natives. There were portions of the Minute of the Governor General claiming full justice for the Natives of India, in which every Englishman would fully and entirely concur. So far as the policy pursued with regard to the magistrate who had tried this particular case was concerned, he (Sir Henry James) took no exception to what had fallen from the Solicitor General. He admitted that the Governor General was entitled to criticize the conduct of Members of the Supreme Court, though whether that would be an Executive or a judicial function might be open to doubt. Lords Salisbury and Lytton regarded it as Executive; but, supposing it to be judicial, the most that could be said would be that the two had been confounded, and the matter would not call for discussion, because no one would censure a Minister for such a mistake. Having, in his first despatch, approved the policy of Lord Lytton in the Fuller and Leeds cases, in the second, Lord Salisbury proceeded to answer the demand made upon him to define the position of the members of the Supreme Court. In this purely speculative despatch he laid down what was the position of the Judges in relation, not only to this case, but also to all others; and it was to the principle embodied in the despatch that he took exception. The hon. and learned Gentleman had not dealt with this despatch, to which the terms of the Motion were directed. The definition that was given affected not only Judges in India, but every Judge that held office at the will of the Crown, for the same words in an Act of Parliament could not have a different meaning in different Colonies; and, if the definition given were correct, it would be binding upon every Governor in every Colony and dependency where there were Judges holding office at the will of the Crown, and would justify each Governor in acting according to his own

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  discretion. It was this that made the question so serious. If the House of Commons thought it right to say, that which his hon. and learned Friend had not ventured to say—namely, that they agreed with Lord Salisbury—of course the responsibility would rest with them; but he trusted that either from the Secretary of State himself, or some other Member of the Government, there would come an acknowledgment that the terms of that despatch could not be supported. Of course, if a Judge flagrantly misconducted himself, or was manifestly unfit for office, he ought to be removed; but the position taken up by Lord Salisbury appeared to him to be unconstitutional, in as much as he claimed the right for the Executive Government to interfere with the Judges in the exercise of their purely judicial functions, though he limited that interference to extreme cases. In so speaking of Lord Salisbury's despatch, he (Sir Henry James) was not carping at words, but merely reproducing the sense of a passage which could not be explained away. In the same despatch Lord Salisbury declared that the right to dismiss any person holding office carried with it the right to indicate conduct which might, if persisted in, incur dismissal, or, in other words, the right to approve or condemn the action of the officer who was liable to be dismissed. Now, he (Sir Henry James), whilst admitting the full right of the Executive to dismiss a Judge for misconduct or unfitness, protested against the proposition that the power to dismiss gave also the power to approve, sanction, or condemn. Some hon. Members who considered the question in a perfunctory way, might feel disposed to support Lord Salisbury on the ground that the Home Secretary interfered with magistrates. But, in the present instance, the House had to deal with Judges appointed under the Patent of the Crown, which entirely altered the case. Besides, he very much doubted whether the power exercised by the Home Secretary was at all of the same nature as that which the Indian Government claimed. If it was necessary, as a matter of policy, that there should be a power of interference given to the Executive, it ought to be done by legislation. But at present this was a question of a constitutional right. These Indian Judges were appointed by the Crown under the Act of 1861, and were
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  to hold office at the will of the Crown; and the meaning of the words "at the will of the Crown" was well defined by the Constitution. It was necessary to consider the history of the position of the Judges prior to the usurpations of the Stuarts. That history, he thought, was not very clearly to be found anywhere. Hallam said that before the time of James I. the office was held "during good behaviour;" but he failed to find the authority on which that statement was made, and he was inclined to think it ought to have been "at the will of the Crown." After Magna Charta there was always the greatest jealousy shown that the Judges should be able to fulfil the promise given in it, that justice should not be sold or denied. As early as the reign of Edward III. the oath administered to a Judge was that he—
  "shall indifferently administer justice to all men, as well foes as friends, that shall have any suit or plea "before him, and this he shall not forbear to do though the King by his letters or by express word of mouth shall command the contrary."
  In the same reign, the principle that the Crown should not interfere with the Judges in their judicial functions was laid down in a statute, and there were many other statutes to the same effect. In one case it was enacted that penalties should be inflicted on the Judges if they listened to the commands of the Crown. It was not till the time of the Stuarts that the Sovereign claimed a right of interference. The hon. and learned Gentleman (the Solicitor General), who was as well versed in Constitutional history as any Member of the House, must feel a pride not only as a lawyer, but as an Englishman, when he thought of the protests that were made against the usurpations that were attempted in those times. When James I. asked merely that the delivery of a judgment might be postponed, Chief Justice Coke refused to give him a promise that he would delay, even for a day, the exercise of his judicial functions. In supporting the claim of the King, Bacon admitted that, as between subject and subject, there was no right of interference, and maintained merely that the right existed in matters in which the prerogatives of the Crown was attacked. In the case of the Indian Judges there was a general right of interference claimed, and that went far beyond the

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  worst claims of the Stuarts. There might be a feeling of sympathy with Lord Salisbury and Lord Lytton in their endeavours to see full justice accorded to the Natives of India; but was a consideration of that description sufficient to warrant interference with the Judges by any Governor General or any Executive in the exercise of their purely judicial functions? Policy had been spoken of; but in relation to the aspect of the question, was it not fatal to say that the Natives were not to have anyone standing between them and an arbitrary Government? It might be necessary that the Executive Government of India should be carried on with some degree of arbitrariness; there had been Governors General in India who had exercised arbitrary powers towards the Natives, and there might be such Governor Generals in the future. Well, were they to be allowed to send directions to the Judges as to how they were to administer the law? He knew that it was not only the European community in India who were shocked at the despatch of Lord Salisbury, but also the intelligent Natives, who never knew in what position they would be placed if the independence of the Judges were assailed, and who were as anxious as the Europeans for that independence. They had protested against the despatch, and were most anxious that the independence of the Judges from the Executive should be secured. They knew that those Judges were, for the most part, men of superior acquirements; that they were men who went out from England to India without prejudice; and that they were men of independent character. When Natives were made Judges it was a proof to them that we gave Natives some part in the administration of justice, and placed them, to some extent, upon an equality with ourselves. The Native Judges had many great attributes. They -were quick to learn, intelligent, retentive in memory, and capable of making nice distinctions in legal matters. But there was one defect in them which anybody must recognize—there was a want of independence in them. It might spring from the nature of their Asiatic race, or from the fact that they were a governed, instead of being a governing race. He would ask the Friends of India who talked so much of their desire to assist the Natives of
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  India, what would be the result, if they told a Native Judge that he was to depend on the interference of the Executive Government; that they could censure him, could degrade him, could suspend his pay one day, and could restore it the next. He would be as obedient as possible to the Executive. He would watch the tendency of the Governor General, and act accordingly. This was an important feature of the question, and should not be lost sight of by those who defended interference with the Judicial Bench. In this despatch Lord Salisbury assumed that, wherever there was a power to remove a Judge, there was necessarily a power to approve or condemn his conduct. That, he (Sir Henry James) thought, was a most serious proposition. He took the position of the Executive Government to be, in relation to the Indian Judges, exactly the same as the power of Parliament was in relation to the English Judges. That which Parliament could do the Executive could do, and that which Parliament could not do, the Executive could not do. The position of Judges in India was in all respects as independent as that of Judges in England. So anxious was Parliament at the time to avoid the errors of the Stuarts, that it took from the Crown the power of removing Judges. If good behaviour was dependent on the judgment of the Crown, it was exactly the same thing as being at the will of the Crown. There was an authority which would commend itself to the House generally, and to hon. Members opposite, which laid down that proposition very clearly, and must receive the approbation of everyone. The Duke of Buckingham, who was at the time Colonial Secretary, had to deal in 1868 with the question of the judicial arrangements at Singapore, and he said—
  "Her Majesty's Government are fully alive to the importance, or rather to the paramount necessity, of enabling the Colonial Judges to administer law in all cases which may he brought before them without any prospect or apprehension of direct or indirect interference from the Executive."
  In the time of Lord Althorp a Motion was brought forward to censure one of the Irish Judges. Sir Robert Peel made a most convincing speech against the claim put forward to censure and degrade the Bench, and that Motion was

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  lost by an overwhelming majority. The House had never deviated from that time from the proposition confirmed by the vote on that Motion. In 1872, when the hon. and learned Member for Limerick (Mr. Butt) brought forward a Motion with respect to the Galway Election Petition and Mr. Justice Keogh, an objection was taken to the form of that Motion, on the ground that it did not speak of the removal of a Judge. The hon. and learned Member at once admitted that he would not take a middle course, because, if Mr. Justice Keogh was fit to be censured, he was not fit to be a Judge. He hoped he had sufficiently guarded himself from being supposed to be making an attack against the intentions of those who had framed this despatch, or even to be criticizing in a hostile spirit the policy which dictated it; but against the wording of that despatch, and the principles contained in it, he felt it his duty to speak as earnestly as he could. The Government need not feel any humiliation in admitting that the terms of that despatch could not be constitutionally justified. Those who had been in office knew how easily mistakes of this kind might be made. Everyone might have to ask forgiveness, and they must give and ask for pardon by turns. This despatch could not be supported, and the Government had not yet been pledged by the Solicitor General to support it. He hoped that the strong hand which tore up the first Fugitive Slave Circular would also tear up this despatch. Even if, for the moment, Lord Salisbury himself would have to say that the despatch could not be supported, he felt sure that the noble Lord would be generous enough, to accept that proposition if he saw that by making the admission he secured the establishment of full constitutional right for the sake of the independence of the Judges of the land.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTsaid, he would not have put himself forward in this debate if it had not been—what rarely happened to him—he was unable entirely to concur with the views of his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Taunton (Sir Henry James). He was entirely of his hon. and learned Friend's opinion, that in the despatch of Lord Salisbury some indiscreet expressions had been used; yet, on the other hand, the absolute affirmation of identity in
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  the position of the Judges in India and the Judges in England was a position which could not be sustained, and any attempt to enforce it would lead to very great difficulty, and, he might say, to very great danger. The contrast of the absolute assertion made on the one side and the other in this matter reminded him of a celebrated constitutional controversy between Pitt and Fox with reference to the Regency Question. Fox maintained the absolute right of the Prince of Wales to the Regency, while Pitt said the Prince of Wales had no more right to be Regent than any other person. Both these assertions were wholly wrong and unsound. He ventured to think that this debate ought not to be confined to mere technical considerations, but that it had a much larger scope, and it was impossible to apply to India their own sage maxims of constitutional law, however much they might respect them. The question was part of a great controversy, and not merely one of judicial functions; it wa8 a claim on the part of the Civil Service of India to exercise a kind of control over the Executive Government, and he could not believe that this would result in any advantage to the Native population. As the House was aware, the question had been made a lever for an attack upon the Executive, upon Lord Lytton and Lord Salisbury, which he (Sir William Harcourt) believed to be profoundly unjust and exceedingly mischievous; and he hoped it would not go forth that the House of Commons had sided with the violent attack which had been directed by the Civil Service of India against the Governor General and the Secretary of State. He was sure that his hon. and learned Friend would disclaim any such intention; but, unless they took pains to express their opinion clearly, great mischief would arise. He did not wish to say anything offensive to the Civil Service, but he could not overlook the fact that in every dominant race a tendency towards oppression would show itself; and whatever question of constitutional law might be involved, the real controversy was, whether the Executive should or should not hold its strong hand over the Civil Service, and prevent its falling into that besetting sin. The discussion, however, could not be narrowed to that one point. He had listened to the conditions men-

  447
  tioned by his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Taunton, and to his speech about the Stuarts, Lord Coke, and Bacon. He fully concurred with him, but failed to see how those matters applied to the particular question. The great offence of the Stuarts was that they tried to apply despotic principles to a free country; but how could any such consideration affect their judgment on the principles which were to govern India? India was not a constitutional country, and though he did not undervalue constitutional principles, he could not accept the proposition that they ought necessarily to underlie the government of all countries. It had been contended that the Judges of India were absolutely as free from control as they were in England, and that no treatment short of dismissal could influence them. But his hon. and learned Friend argued that the conduct of Mr. Leeds was wrong, and that he ought to have been dismissed; in that he could not agree with him, holding that, though his conduct was wrong, the punishment suggested was wrong also. He only wished to point out that the course pursued was not desirable, and a practice so Draconian in its severity would not be beneficial to India. His hon. and learned Friend had said that they could meddle with Judges in England, but not in India; but what did that mean? If the Government in India were to have no control over them, who was to deal with them? Parliament certainly was not to exercise control. Were they going to erect the Judges in India into a power superior to the Executive, superior to the Governor General, superior to the Secretary of State, and superior even to Parliament itself? He had a very high respect for the Judges who were under the control of the public opinion of a free country; but he was not disposed to repose confidence in Judges who were absolutely uncontrolled in the distant regions of the East. There was a tendency in certain quarters to deify a man the moment he was made a Judge, and they were apt to imagine that, from that moment, he was removed from all the vices and faults that belong to human nature. But the fact was—which his hon. and learned Friend seemed to forget—that a Judge was a man, and might commit errors even when he was called a Judge. Why
  448
  they should suppose that the moment a man became a Judge he was fit to be entrusted with absolute, uncontrolled power he could not understand. He was an enemy to all forms of despotism, and this would be the most dangerous, oppressive, and mischievous of all. What did they mean by a despotic Government? They meant that the Executive was supreme. What did they mean by constitutional Government? They meant that the government was restrained by Parliament and by public opinion. The question, then, was—Did they, or did they not, admit that India was despotically governed? If they said that India was constitutionally governed, he would admit all that his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Taunton had said; but if they admitted that India was despotically governed, then the analogy which had been drawn between India and a Constitutional Government was altogether inapplicable. They were told they must have the Constitutional Judge to stand between the Executive and the Natives of India; but why were they to assume that the Judges would stand between the Executive and the Natives? The Judges themselves were members of the dominant caste—the most distinctive element of that dominant caste—and what was the power which alone could and would be disposed to stand between the Judiciary and the Natives? It was the Executive Government in India, which had the great advantage of being short-service men—men who had come from England fresh with the instincts of a free country, without the prejudices which belonged to the dominant class; they were the most likely to stand between the Judiciary and the Natives. He attached great importance to the principle of short service and to the fact that the men went out fresh, as it had been said, from a bath of liberty in England. They went to India with the principles that actuated England at home; they had not had time, under the enervating influence of the climate, and the still more enervating influence of a dominant class, to forget the principles on which the government of India was founded. They had to deal, no doubt, with a very difficult problem, but they did the best they could; they must try to balance these enormous powers; but he must object to the erec-

  449
  tion of a despotism which had never yet been known—the despotism of a Judiciary uncontrolled by a Bar, uncontrolled by public opinion, and uncontrolled by the Press. That a man should say—"I am a Judge, I cover myself by that veil, I do what I like, I am not responsible," that was not a system to establish in India; and, without defending every expression used in the despatch, he must say it seemed to him that substantial justice had been done in a matter of immense importance. Absolute and uncontrolled power on the part of the Judges seemed to him incompatible with their rule in India, and he would therefore be no party to passing a censure on the Government of India.
  MR. FORSYTHsaid, no one could be more jealous than he was of the interference of the Executive with the Judges; but, after a careful consideration of the circumstances of the case, he had come to the conclusion that the despatch of the Secretary of State for India was entirely right. The Governor of the North West Provinces had, for his own information, applied to the High Court for their own opinion respecting the propriety of the sentence passed. They should have declined to give any opinion: they, however, replied to the effect that the sentence, though, perhaps, lighter than the Court might be disposed to fix, under the circumstances, did not appear to be especially open to objection. The letter, to which that was an answer, was a semi-official letter, and the opinion expressed in the reply to it was simply an unofficial opinion. The point was not one brought before the High Court in its judicial character. When the question came before the Government of India they used these very mild terms—
  "The Governor General in Council cannot but regret that the High Court should have considered that its duties and responsibilities in this matter were adequately fulfilled by the expression of such an opinion."
  But it should be remembered that this was not a question brought before the High Court in their judicial capacity. If the High Court was asked to express an informal opinion, surely the Governor General, if he thought that opinion wrong, was justified in saying so? With regard to the general question, he could not put the Judges of the High Court
  450
  in India precisely on the same footing as the Judges in this country. There was, in the first place, this remarkable difference—that the Judges in this country held office quamdiu se bene gesserint, while the Judges in India held office durante bene placito. In this country the Crown could not dismiss a Judge, except upon an Address from both Houses. But in India there was no House of Commons, nor was there any public functionary or organ which could advise or rebuke a Judge, except the Viceroy; and a milder admonition, with regard to the course which he thought ought to have been pursued in the present case, than that given by the Viceroy could not have been expressed in language. Even in this country, the fact that a Judge could only be removed on an Address by both Houses of Parliament did not prevent the House of Commons from calling in question the conduct of a Judge. For instance, in 1770, Serjeant Glyn moved in the House of Commons for a—
  "Committee to inquire into the proceedings of the Judges in Westminster Hall, particularly in cases relating to the liberty of the Press;"
  when, in the course of a long debate, the conduct of Chief Justice Mansfield was severely censured by the Mover, and by Dunning and Burke, "while," as Lord Campbell said, "it was stoutly defended by Gray, Attorney General Thurlow, Solicitor General, and Charles Fox." If they in that House might call in question the conduct of a Judge without intending to move an Address, why might not something similar be done in India? He should certainly oppose the Motion if it could be pressed to a division.
  MR. HERSCHELLsaid, they must discuss this question as one wholly independent of the claim set up by the Civil Servants of the Crown, and they must, moreover, consider to what the second despatch of Lord Salisbury would lead if it were carried out to its full extent. His hon. and learned Friend (Sir William Harcourt) had said that the Government of India was a despotic Government, and its treatment must be different from that of a constitutional Government. But surely it was a question, if you were to govern a country despotically, how far you must leave that despotism unchecked, uncontrolled, and

  451
  unfettered. Was it not desirable to fetter that despotism with some of those checks and safeguards which had been found useful in this country, which was governed constitutionally? Unquestionably, the sentence in this Fuller case was one which came within the judicial discretion of the Judge, if he honestly and fairly exercised that discretion; and however much persons might dispute the expediency of the sentence, there was not anything in it so extravagant as to show that the Judge did not desire to do justice between Natives and men of his own race. Hence the extreme importance of Lord Salisbury's second despatch, which laid down this—that the power of interference and censure on the part of the Executive was a power which ought to be exercised only in cases of extreme necessity. But what did Lord Salisbury mean by "extreme necessity," according to his own interpretation of the words? He meant that in every case in which the Judge exercised discretion it was in the power of the Executive to punish him for the sentence he had pronounced. Admitting that where there was no Parliament the Executive must exercise control, the next point they had to consider was to what extent, and in what direction, was that control to be exercised. When it was urged that Judges in India were free from the popular criticism and control which existed in England, it might be said that the same was true also of the Executive Government in India. The Indian Executive was all powerful, and not under the same criticism as the English Executive; and, therefore, while there might be danger in leaving the Indian Judges too uncontrolled, there might also be a similar danger in the case of the Indian Executive. He hoped that such a public sentiment was making way in India as would render it less likely now than ever that Englishmen, when dealing judicially with a Native, would deal with him differently from what they would do with a European. But Judges in India were not all of the dominant race; some of them belonged to the subject-race, if so it was to be called; and this fact rendered the despatch the more dangerous, and made it important it should be understood that if those powers were to be exercised in India, which were not exercised in England, they would at least be
  452
  kept under the strictest and most rigorous control and inspection. If the Executive was to be interfering constantly with the Judiciary, perhaps from over sensitiveness in favour of the Native—for such a thing was possible—it should be remembered that they might have a recoil in the opposite direction, when those who might think the Native had got more than his due would seek to get for the Englishman, perhaps, more than his due. The great object should be to hold the scales fairly between the two classes, and deal with them as if they were both of the same race. They should guard not only against favouring the strong against the weak, but also against favouring the weak against the strong; for as much mischief might be done by the latter as by the former; and it was a remarkable fact that among the earliest warnings given in the Books of Moses to a Judge as to the performance of his duty was this—"Thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty." Admitting that there must be the right to dismiss a Judge for misconduct, he asked—was there necessarily involved in that the right, not only to censure him, but to prescribe a course of conduct? Because that was what was implied by the despatch. The next time a man exercised his judicial discretion, there was the danger that he might not act impartially, according to the best of his own judgment, but with an eye to please the authorities of Calcutta. If, excepting in the case of absolute misconduct, the Executive were to point out to a Judge that a certain course of judicial conduct might lead to his dismissal, that would tend to sap the independent judgment of the tribunals. Instead of censuring a particular Judge for giving a particular sentence, the Government, if they had deemed it necessary, could have issued a circular on the subject to Indian magistrates generally.

  INDIAN CIVIL SERVICE—ADMISSION OF CANDIDATES.—OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. LYON PLAYFAIRrose to call attention to the new regulations in regard to candidates for the Indian Civil Service; and to move—
  "That the regulations for the Indian Civil Service fail to fulfil the condition laid down,

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  when it was opened for public competition, 'That the regulations would deal fairly by all parts of the kingdom and all places of liberal education,' inasmuch as they practically exclude the Scotch Universities, the Queen's Colleges, Ireland, and similar institutions in London and the provinces, from participation in the preparation of candidates, either before or after competition; and because they will act injuriously by tending to withdraw youths from public schools at an early age in order to place them under a course of special training for the entrance examinations."
  The whole subject was one of great importance, for it involved the future judicial and fiscal administration of the Indian Empire. It was not only of much interest to this country, for these important offices in India had become, by open competition, the inheritance of the whole nation, and not of a class. The influence which it had had upon the education of the middle classes was far from inconsiderable, as it had broadened our idea of school training all over the country. It was necessary to understand the present plan before they could approach the effect of the changes under the new regulations. The existing system was this—Any person might compete for the Civil Service of India between the ages of 17 and 21, and about 250 candidates competed, though only 30 or 40 were passed annually into the Civil Service. After the candidates were entered they became probationers, and received £150 a-year for two years, in order that they might be able to pursue their technical studies, and if they were then successful they could go to India. The change now proposed reduced the maximum age of 21 years to 19, and the candidate could not receive the £150 unless he studied at the University. These were the two changes proposed, and he hoped that Lord Salisbury had not made them without great consideration. His Lordship submitted three questions to the Indian authorities. The first was—"Does the system of open competition answer well, and are you getting good officials under that system? "The unanimous reply from India was in the affirmative, and Lord Salisbury, of course, took no action on that. The second question was—"As it is important for young men to go out early, ought the maximum age to be reduced from 21 to 19?" That was a serious change, which would alter the whole character of preparatory education for the Civil Service in India. Lord Salis-
  454
  bury, in his despatch, said that Indian opinion was divided, because 38 were in favour of raising the age, and 27 for lowering it; and as they were so nearly balanced, he was obliged to act on his own opinion and that of his Council. That, however, was a most inaccurate way of giving the result of his inquiries, because a large proportion were in favour of leaving things as they were. The opinions were asked of 110 persons, including Judges, Members of Council, Governors, and Civil Servants. Of these, 41 were for leaving things as they were; 41 were in favour of raising the age to 22, 13 for making it 20, and 15 in favour of making it 19. So that the result of the whole of the Indian evidence was that 95 were against the age Lord Salisbury had adopted, and only 15 in its favour. So that Lord Salisbury was technically right in saying that Indian opinion was divided, though it was divided into two very unequal parts. But were English authorities in its favour? First of all the Civil Service Commissioners gave the most cogent reasons why the age of 21 should be retained in preference to 19; but Lord Salisbury said that the Universities were in favour of reducing the age to 19. There were 10 Universities in the United Kingdom, but Lord Salisbury only wrote to two, Oxford and Cambridge. Of those, the latter gave no opinion at all; and at Oxford Dr. Liddell said, reduce the age to 19. The other eight Universities were not consulted at all; so that when Lord Salisbury said the Universities were in favour of the change, he meant that Oxford was in its favour, for the other nine gave no opinion at all. He (Mr. Lyon Playfair) believed that this change arose from the double position Lord Salisbury held—he was Secretary of State for India and also Chancellor of Oxford. His Lordship naturally attached great importance to the distinguished University of which he was the head, and so the Chancellor of Oxford, moved by Oxford, reduced the age to 19 to suit Oxford. Oxford, in his opinion, was wise and India foolish, otherwise Oxford would not have prevailed. On the next point Lord Salisbury did go according to Indian opinion. He asked—"Do you attach much importance to University association and training for the men who go out to India?" and the great majority of the India reporters

  455
  were in favour of that. The fact, however, was, that they were thinking of Haileybury in the olden time, and the esprit de corps which they got there, and which was so valuable. But that was exactly what they would not now get with the maximum age reduced to 19. The result would be that Oxford, with her wealthy University chest, would, as she was already doing, set up an Indian curriculum, with Indian tutors. Cambridge, which, as an University, was less wealthy, but which had rich Colleges, would do the same in probably a less degree. Then, probably, out of 80 probationers of the two years, 40, if not 50, would be supplied by Oxford, 20 by Cambridge, and the remainder would be dribbled in ones and twos over the Scotch, Irish, and the London Universities, Owens College, Manchester, and the Leeds and other Colleges. This might easily have been avoided. Association might be secured by a monopoly given to a single College at Oxford or Cambridge, but disassociation must result from freedom, even for the several Colleges of a single University to participate in the training. That was pointed out clearly by the Civil Service Commissioners, when the scheme was first broached in 1864. They showed that it might produce University feeling, but could not effect the Association of Haileybury. But University training could be had either before or after competition. Up to 1864, the maximum age had been 22, and then Oxford and Cambridge sent two-fifths of the candidates. On the reduction of the age to 21 they ceased to do so to a large extent, because as Undergraduates entered at 19, they could not graduate before 21. This reduction did not operate against the Scotch and Irish Colleges, as they entered students at 17, who could graduate at 20, and either enter the competition directly or go after a special training of six months. For this reason, both Scotland and Ireland sent many more candidates than corresponded to their population. Now, all that Oxford and Cambridge required was either to shorten their curriculum, or to receive Undergraduates intended for competition at an earlier age than at present. That, in fact, was contemplated in the impending reforms for those Universities. All that was necessary would have been to give 500 or 1,000 marks to all men who
  456
  were B.A.'s from any part of the Kingdom. That would have given a great stimulus to candidates from Oxford and Cambridge, and the other Universities would have had a fair chance also. But Lord Macaulay had insisted on the importance of haying general before technical education. That was the experience of all professional training—a good studium generale first and technical training after. On that point, too, Indian opinion was very emphatic. Out of the 110 Indian reporters, no less than 101 said that the two years of probation were wholly required for such technical subjects as English, Anglo-Indian, Hindu, Mahomedan, and Roman Law; Indian History and Geography and Political Economy. But all that was new to Oxford and Cambridge. Their glory was to teach learning for its own sake, and regardless of its appliances, and now, regardless of their peculiar genius, they were going to convert them into mere technical schools. They could only do that also by tempting them with £12,000 of public money to become technical schools with a practical monopoly. This was, moreover, entirely contrary to the principle which the eminent Committee of 1854 laid down for the Civil Service in India. That Committee included Lord Macaulay, Mr. Lefevre, the father of the hon. Member for Reading, and other persons eminent for their knowledge of India, and they took the greatest trouble in forming a scheme. The principle laid down was that no part of the Kingdom and no school should be exclusively set apart for the Civil Service in India, and their rules accordingly dealt fairly with all parts of the Kingdom. The effect of the new scheme, on the contrary, would practically shut out all the Universities except Oxford and Cambridge, as they would not find it worth their while to set up an Indian curriculum with Indian tutors, and that being so Lord Salisbury would very properly not recognize them. The Scotch and Irish Universities, as he had shown, could not compete for the probationers, and they were now shut out from preparing them before competition. Because as their students could only graduate at 20, they could not now send students as before between 17 and 19. It was clear that candidates must now begin their special preparation at 15 or 16, a year before they could even

  457
  enter the Universities. But what did Lord Salisbury himself say as to the effect of Scotch Universities on the history of our Indian Empire? His words were—
  "It was undoubted that most of the great men to whom the Indian Empire was owing were Scotchmen, and that the Scotch Universities had done a noble work in preparing the Civil Servants for the administration of India."
  Then why exclude them for the future? Another effect of the change which he objected to was that it offered great facilities to the rich and shut out the poor. Hitherto the Scotch and Irish Universities had been remarkably successful in sending out poor men. But neither Scotland nor Ireland had great public schools like England, and it was owing to their Universities that poor men could get a good education. But in the future these could be of no use as regarded our Indian Empire to the poor inhabitants of those countries. It was a mistake, however, to suppose that the English public schools would be benefited by the new regulations. He had no doubt that it had been thought in the India Office that Eton, Harrow, Rugby, and other of our great schools would be able to send up men direct, but they had not been able to do so; the crammers had been able to beat them entirely, and they would do so in future. He had Lord Salisbury's authority for saying that the crammers must in the end win and remain masters, both of the schools and the Universities. To take a boy away from school and all his early associations, to deprive him of his best years of bright boyhood, and to place him in the hands of a crammer, was one of the most deplorable results of these new regulations. Lord Salisbury and his Council were, no doubt, much influenced in their change by the terrors that London was a bad and dangerous place for the training of probationers. The professed "moral responsibility" of Oxford and Cambridge had charms for him. He would not believe the Civil Service Commissioners when they said they had ascertained no evils of a London residence. Their words ought to be before the House—
  "Further reflection and observation have tended to confirm the Commissioners in the belief that young men who have already given the best proof of steadiness and self-control by success in an arduous Commission, a system under
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  which they are left free to choose for themselves the place and manner of their studies, is a better preparation for the perfect liberty which they are so soon to enjoy in India than any supervision that the discipline of a College could supply."
  If there were any real dangers in a London residence, the new Eegulations would increase them tenfold, because in future they were likely to apply to the great proportion of the 250 candidates who come up to the London Special Trainers, and not only to the few probationers. For by the new system they brought boys to London at a very much younger age, before they had attained any stability, and when the perils of London would be infinitely greater to them. But had London done such harm in the past? The Civil Service Commissioners stated in their Report that they had never had to refuse a certificate of good conduct to a probationer. He wanted to know what were the recommendations by which this change was supported? He had shown that they did not come from India—indeed, that Indian opinion was against the change. His complaint was best summed up in the terms of the Resolution of which he had given Notice; but which the Forms of the House prevented him from moving.
  MR. HERMONprotested in the strongest manner against the important business of the evening—namely, the consideration of Votes in Supply—Votes which the Government stood in need of if they were to avoid national bankruptcy—being interfered with, if not wholly thrown aside, by no fewer than 35 Motions. The right hon. Gentleman had devoted a great deal of time to this question, and he had delivered an able and interesting speech, and he wished the speech had been made on some night when the House was not asked to vote money. He hoped the money would be voted that night, and that the Estimates would not be deferred to a late period of the Session, when there would be no opportunity for discussing them.
  MR. ANDERSONpointed out that the complaint of the hon. Member for Preston, that Supply was delayed by these Motions, was not well founded, it having been the immemorial practice of the House to discuss grievances before Supply, and the Government having through a recent concession the power

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  to take as many Mondays as they pleased for the Estimates, when only grievances pertaining to those particular estimates could be brought up. His right hon. Friend had been deprived, by the action of the Government, from bringing on the Motion the last time it was on the Paper, and therefore Government could not complain of his doing it now. His right hon. Friend's able speech had been thrown away, for not only was he unable to take a division upon the subject, but very few of his Colleagues upon the front Opposition Bench had been present to support him, and six out of the seven or eight Members of the Ministry present had been fast asleep the whole time, and yet the speech was one well worthy of attention, but a debate always fell flat if a division could not be taken on it. The right hon. Gentleman had exposed the extremely insidious plan which had been devised by the Secretary of State for India who was the head of Oxford University, and who nominally in the interests of India had adopted a plan which was really prejudicial to India and would do no good to anybody except the University of Oxford. It was, in fact, an insidious plan for benefiting Oxford at the expense of all the other Universities and Colleges in the Kingdom.
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTONsaid, that the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Playfair), in his otherwise fair speech, had made one observation which seemed to be quite uncalled for, and it was that the duties of Secretary of State for India and Chancellor of the University of Oxford were incompatible. He also insinuated, as did also the hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Anderson), that Oxford, and Oxford alone, owing to his noble Friend's position as Chancellor of that University, was to get the benefit of the changes referred to. He regretted that the right hon. Gentleman had thought it right to impute such motives to a Minister of the Crown. What the Secretary of State had mainly to consider was the interests of the Indian Civil Service. When Lord Salisbury came into office the system of competitive examination had been in existence for some time. It was, however, represented to him that the present system of training through which all candidates after competition had to pass was not the best that could be devised. Lord
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  Salisbury took opinions on the subject, and. an overwhelming preponderance of representations came to him from India that the association of candidates after they had passed their examination would be most desirable. Under the former system every candidate was obliged to live in London for two years. He had no doubt that, on the whole, they behaved very well; but he would appeal to the parents of young men to say whether, if they had sons between 18 and 21, they would like under such circumstances to turn them loose in London for two years with the knowledge that the only control exercised over them during that period would be a periodical examination? Lord Salisbury kept the system of competitive examination intact; but he found that the only way to obtain the advantages of association was to induce the young men to go to the University. It was then necessary that the limits of age should be reduced, and the Secretary of State reduced the maximum age from 17 to 19, instead of 21. He accordingly laid down the rule that they must go to some College—giving a broad and liberal interpretation to the selection—and he said that only those who complied with this condition should have the allowance of £150 a-year, now given to them during their period of probation. It was never intended that this rule should exclude either the Irish or Scotch candidates. Dublin University had not protested against this arrangement, nor had he heard that either the Queen's Colleges or the Scotch Universities had been prevented from sending up their quota for the competitive examinations. There were probably certain institutions to which young men went at certain ages, and they might be affected by the new limits of age; but it was an entire delusion to suppose that the reduction of age would affect the candidates who came up from the Scotch Universities. He believed that the great majority of them left their Universities under the age of 19. The real complaint against the proposed alteration on the part of the Scotch Universities was that candidates would not be able to take their degrees previous to passing the competitive examination by which they could alone become eligible for the Indian Civil Service. He repeated, that what the India Office had to think of was the interest and con-

  461
  venience of the Civil Service, and the majority of the India Council agreed with the Secretary of State in thinking that association was absolutely necessary for these young men. If this association could only be accomplished by reducing the age, the Secretary of State was bound to do what was best for India, even if it affected the interests of some Educational institutions. The scheme had not yet come into operation; but if it were found to be attended with prejudicial results, it would be proper and opportune on the part of the right hon. Gentleman to point out its disastrous effects. At present, to speak of such results, was prophetic anticipation. The best consideration had been given to the Regulations, which it was believed would operate beneficially, and which were not intentionally framed to exclude either Scotchmen or Irishmen. If in their operation they were found to have such an effect, representation of the fact would be listened to, and such alterations made as would remedy the evil.
  MR. W. E. FORSTER,acknowledged that in troubling the House with any remarks on that occasion he did so on personal grounds, because he was connected with one of the Scotch Universities—namely, that of Aberdeen, and he had had an opportunity of finding out what sort of men went to Scotch Universities, and, in his opinion, the hard work they had there fitted them for service to their country afterwards. That being so, they had to consider what was the effect of this Minute on those men. The noble Lord had said that they were not affected at all. They were affected very much indeed. The noble Lord said that they might get their education before they were 19; but at the present moment they passed their degrees at the University first, and then came up for examination. It was impossible for them to subject themselves to this examination and then go to the University afterwards. The effect of this system would be to exclude the students of Scotch Universities from the part which they had hitherto taken in the Indian Civil Service. One-tenth of the whole came from the Scotch Universities, and they would all acknowledge the ability with which that Service was conducted. The question was whether they would support and endorse a system the practical working of which would
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  be to throw the Indian Civil Service into an Oxford or Cambridge College, more probably into an Oxford College? He did not consider that the argument for the association of young men before they went out to India carried conviction with it; for how could they secure association? The system might result in a special Oxford College for the purpose of the Indian Service; but he ventured to think it would be better if students had been left to run their chance of competing in an examination in London. He believed that some people entertained the idea that the moral conduct of the students would be better preserved by their being at Oxford rather than in London; but if they were so weak in their morale that they required that protection, so much the worse for the future government of India. He trusted that the scheme would be regarded as purely tentative, and he doubted whether this particular plan of giving a monopoly to a particular College of Oxford would answer.
  CAPTAIN NOLANsaid, the idea of there being any association necessary for the training of young men for the future government of India was a bit of nonsense. The simple question was whether a monopoly should be given to the English Universities. He had gone through a competitive examination, and he thought the examinations ought to be open to all young men who believed they were competent to go through the ordeal, and that they should not be confined to the sons of the great and independent, who had influence which was used for their relatives or friends. Some slight concession had been made by the Government to the Irish Universities; but the appointments were reserved principally for Oxford.
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKEremarked that all those who had spoken against Lord Salisbury's scheme had spoken on behalf of Scotland and Ireland, and not of England. He believed that English University opinion was by no means unanimously in favour of Lord Salisbury's scheme. That opinion rather was that the attendance of students of one particular class at the University, taking no part in its ordinary work, would be a curse to the University and no great advantage to the students.
  MR. LAWobserved that if the facts stated by his right hon. Friend (Mr.

  463
  Lyon Playfair) were correct, the opinion of those most competent to judge—namely, the Indian officials—had been given decidedly against the proposed change. Lord Salisbury thought it important to have the opinion of these officials for his guidance, and it now appeared that 95 were against the reduction of age and only 15 in its favour. If that were so, why should the opinion of those Indian officials be completely disregarded by the noble Lord? The proposed change would be a most serious interference with the interests of the Scotch and Irish Universities. He hoped the proposal would receive more consideration before anything was done in the matter.

  VOTES ON ACCOUNT.
  MR. RYLANDSsaid, that he understood Army Estimates were not to be taken, and that the House was asked to resolve itself into Committee for the purpose simply of voting large sums on account of Civil Service Estimates. He wished, therefore, on his own behalf, and on behalf of several hon. Friends near him, to enter a strong protest against the course which the Government intended to pursue. He had placed on the Notice Paper a Resolution on the subject which the Forms of the House did not allow him to move: it was to this effect—
  "That it is not expedient, at so late a period of the Session, to grant any further Votes on Account for Civil Service Estimates."
  In preparing that Resolution he had followed the exact words used by the right hon. Gentleman the present Home Secretary, in a Motion which he brought forward on May 25th, 1871, and which he supported in a speech strongly condemning the Liberal Government for proposing Votes on Account at so late a period of the Session. But they had now arrived at a month later in the Session, and there was all the more reason why the House should resist the proposals of the Government. In 1871, when the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Cross) brought forward his Motion, it was received with quite a chorus of approval from the Conservative benches. The hon. Member for West Norfolk (Mr. Bentinck) complained of the great abuses which must necessarily arise from deferring the full consideration of the
  464
  Estimates by passing Votes on Account. The present First Lord of the Admiralty took the same line, and the right hon. Gentleman the senior Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley), with his usual terseness and clearness of expression, condemned the practice of discussing the Estimates at so late a period that they might be said to be shuffled through the House rather than discussed; and he expressed the suspicion that the Estimates might be purposely delayed from the desire of Ministers to shut the mouths of private Members who wished to bring forward Motions on going into Committee of Supply. Let the House remember the position in which they were placed in this matter. There had already been a large sum granted in Votes on Account at the beginning of the Session, amounting to £3,606,000, and there was, no doubt, a justification for that proceeding in consequence of the operation of the Exchequer and Audit Act, which compelled the surrender of unexpended balances at the close of the financial year. It was therefore necessary, in order to meet the current expenditure, for the Government early in April to ask for Votes on Account in anticipation of Committee of Supply on detailed Estimates. He did not object to that course provided only a moderate sum were asked for; but the case was altogether different at later periods of the Session. The Government now asked them to vote at the end of June the sum of £1,327,910 on account of Civil Service Estimates, which was equal to five or six weeks expenditure, and if it were granted, what would be the consequence? Most probably that the consideration of Civil Service Estimates would be thrown over to August, when it would be utterly impossible to give them any serious attention. Probably they would be hurried through in a small and jaded House, upon a Morning Sitting on a Saturday in the first or second, week in August, when the slightest attempt at discussion would be resented as an intolerable nuisance. They would probably be told, as was customary upon these occasions, that it was an "Imperial necessity" to pass this Vote on Account to meet the Engagements of the Government at Quarter Day; but who were to blame for the existing difficulty? Clearly the Government themselves, by the way in which

  465
  they had managed the business of the House in postponing Supply to this late period of the Session. They might have availed themselves of several Mondays which they had devoted to other Business not of a pressing character. Take, for instance, the Prisons Bill, for which there was no urgent necessity, but which had occupied at least two Mondays which might otherwise have been devoted to making considerable progress with the Estimates. The other day, on a public occasion, the Chancellor of the Exchequer alluded to the large amount of time which had been swallowed up by the Prisons Bill, and to the probable large demands upon the national funds which would result from that piece of legislation. The right hon. Gentleman was no doubt right in his statement; but, without dwelling upon any individual case, it was quite evident that the Government by giving precedence to Committee of Supply might have prevented the House being driven into its present position. The practice of Votes on Account was so objectionable that it would be right to take strong measures to put a stop to them; and he was convinced that if the Vote were refused on the present occasion, although there might be some temporary inconvenience to the Government Departments, there would be a final stop put to the vicious practice in future Sessions.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he could see nothing practical in such speeches as that to which the House had just been listening, which took up a good deal of time, and which stood in the way of the very thing which the speakers themselves contended ought to be done. They were all agreed that one of the most important duties of the House of Commons was to canvass the Estimates in Supply, and any Government that attempted to prevent the canvassing of the Estimates would be guilty of great misconduct. But the Government had, as a matter of fact, done all they could to bring in Supply on various occasions since the opening of the Session. Indeed, he would venture to say that in no previous Session had the House been so often invited to go into Committee of Supply. When, however, Supply was put on the Notice Paper as the Business of the evening, the time was occupied in discussing Motions of various kinds—a course to which he
  466
  offered no objection—until near 12 o'clock, when it was urged that it was too late to proceed with Supply. It was not, therefore, the fault of the Government that they were not able to get into Supply. It was not by any action of the Government that that night had been occupied with other matters than Supply, and on other occasions they had been prevented from going into Supply in consequence of the tiresome debates that had taken place on such unimportant subjects as the Queen's Plates and Secret Service money. On one occasion no less than six-and-a-half hours had, he recollected, been consumed in getting through five Votes. If that was the course to be pursued, the House must make up its mind to sit, not only into August, but into September, and it was very probable as it was that the Session would be an unusually long one. It was absolutely necessary to take Votes on Account, otherwise the money would not be forthcoming with which to pay the current services of the country. Next Monday a fresh quarter would be commenced, and the ordinary quarterly payments would become due; and he wished to know whether the House desired that the Government should tell the Civil servants that they could not pay their salaries because the House refused to vote the money for them? He could assure them that he was not at all anxious to take Votes on Account, because by doing so an opportunity was afforded to hon. Members of raising the same objections to a Vote over and over again. The Government had endeavoured ever since Friday, the 16th March, to bring forward the Civil Service Estimates, but without success. It was not the fault of Government that different subjects had been brought forward for discussion on going into Supply, because they had no power to prevent such subjects being brought forward. The result of the course which had been taken in the present instance by the hon. Member would be, whatever might be his intention, simple obstruction, and it seemed like an attempt, under the guise of trying to get forward, to prevent them from getting forward. Under the present system of surrendering the balances at the end of the year, the Government must ask for Votes on Account, otherwise they could not carry on the business of the country. What

  467
  remedy did the hon. Member propose for it? Were the Government to abolish the system of surrendering the balances at the end of the year? [Mr. RYLANDS: No!] Did he mean to limit the power of hon. Members to move Amendments on the Motion that the House do resolve itself into a Committee of Supply? [Mr. RYLANDS: No!] Then what did the hon. Member mean? Was the House before it began any legislative measures to pass all the Votes in Supply? If so, he was afraid there would be an outcry against the Government for endeavouring to curtail the sitting of Parliament. The real truth was, that if the House desired that its Business should be properly conducted, it must assist in doing it properly, and hon. Members must not come forward, as the hon. Member for Burnley had done, obstructing, and not facilitating business. The Government had already overdrawn to a certain extent, and if this Vote on Account were not passed the greatest irregularity would result, and the public service must necessarily suffer.
  MR. DILLWYNsaid, it was for the Government to say how they would obtain money. The Government were responsible for the conduct of Business in that House, and it was their duty to facilitate it, instead of which they occupied the Morning Sittings with measures that were of no importance. The present Government had the whole time of the Session at their disposal, and what legislation had they to show for it? He might be called obstructive. But the real question was, whether or not the House was to control the supplies? He thought it could not do so if the Votes were taken at so late a period in the Session and in a lump sum.
  MR. GOLDSMIDmaintained that the statement made by the Secretary of the Treasury in regard to Civil Service Estimates in the early part of the Session had materially facilitated the progress of the Estimates. The best way to get through Supply would be to have Morning Sittings, at which it could be taken.
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, he thought his hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands) was not deserving of the censure which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had passed upon him. The right hon. Gentleman had addressed the House at considerable
  468
  length, and did not appear to be exceedingly anxious to go into Committee of Supply. He (the Marquess of Hartington) did not think that when a Vote on Account was asked for they were wasting time in asking whether the Business of the House had been conducted in the most satisfactory manner. There was a Standing Order that on Mondays no Motions could be brought forward on Supply except in relation to the Estimates, and the Government had not availed themselves of the facilities given by that Order. At a very early period of the Session they had asked, for Morning Sittings; but they had used these Sittings for the purpose of advancing Bills which, in the opinion of a considerable number of Members, were of no great importance, and not in taking Supply. On the evenings of the days on which Morning Sittings were held the House was generally counted out, and Members who were thus prevented from bringing forward their Motions naturally took advantage of the first night when Supply was down to bring them before the House. It was the conduct of the Government and not the conduct of the House which had rendered it necessary to make this demand for a Vote on Account which the Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted was objectionable.
  MR. BUTTthought the charge of obstruction made against the hon. Member for Burnley was perfectly unfounded. He was not obstructing the business of Supply, but obstructing a Vote on Account to which they all objected. They understood that the business of the night was to be the Army Estimates, and not one of these Motions could have been brought forward if the Government had taken the Army Estimates. He thought it was better that legislation should be postponed than such a violation of the Constitution should occur as the House losing control over the Army Estimates. If he withdrew his opposition to the Vote on Account, he should like to know if the Government would name a day on which the Estimates would come before the House, so that they might have an opportunity of discussing them? Take, for instance, the Irish Education Estimates, on which there were important Motions that they desired to have the opportunity of discussing.
  MR. GATHORNE HARDYexpressed a hope that the Business of the evening might proceed without heated controversy between the two sides of the House. He would remind the noble Lord opposite (the Marquess of Hartington) that eight Mondays had already been taken in Supply. On two of them the Army Estimates had been set down with the unusual result that only two Votes had been obtained on each occasion, while to-night Supply had not yet been reached. As for the present state of Business, the interests of the private Members seemed to him to be as much concerned as those of the Government. That night there had been 32 Motions on the Paper, and nobody knew beforehand which of them would be taken. Surely some remedy for this state of things was desirable? It was now the intention of the Government to proceed steadily with the Estimates, and he could assure the hon. and learned Member for Limerick (Mr. Butt) that the House would have a full opportunity for discussing the various items. He hoped that that evening the House would grant the Vote which was so necessary for the carrying on of the public service.
  MR. PARNELLwished to remark on, not to say contradict, the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to the vast amount of time expended in discussing the Secret Service Vote, and also the Vote for Queen's Plates for Ireland and Scotland. He (Mr. Parnell) was in the House that night, and there were just two hours spent on the Secret Service Vote. Many of the speeches were of 10 or 15 minutes' length, and on his own part he spoke only five minutes. It was a subject of great interest, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer must agree that the time was not ill-spent. As to the Queen's Plates Votes, the Scotch Plates were discussed by Scotch Members almost entirely, and the next Vote was opposed by the noble Lord sitting just behind the Treasury Bench (Lord Randolph Churchill), and his speech much exceeded in length that of any other speech made during the evening by any Member in connection with the Secret Service Vote. Those two Votes did not take much more than an hour, so that when the Chancellor of the Exchequer threw up his hands and called upon the House to bear witness
  470
  to the time wasted it was quite unnecessary. He hoped the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands) would not be deterred from doing his duty by the charge of obstruction. He had heard that charge made by many persons, and by writers in the newspapers, during the present Session, but in no case was that charge substantiated. He regretted the Chancellor of the Exchequer had followed that bad example, and if he had tried to substantiate that charge he would have found himself unable to do so.
  Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.
  Supply—considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)

  CIVIL SERVICE AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, VOTE ON ACCOUNT.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a further sum, notexeeeding £1,327,910, be granted to Her Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the Charge for the following Civil Services and Revenue Departments, to the 31st day of March 1878: viz.—

  CIVIL SERVICES.

  CLASS I.

  £

  Metropolitan Police Courts

  900

  CLASS II.

  Ireland:—

  Chief Secretary's Office

  2,200

  Boundary Survey

  60

  Charitable Donations and Bequests Office

  200

  Local Government Board

  11,000

  Public Record Office

  500

  Public Works Office

  2,500

  Register Office, General

  1,500

  General Survey and Valuation

  1,800

  CLASS III.

  England:—

  Law Charges

  5,000

  Criminal Prosecutions

  15,000

  Chancery Division, High Court of Justice

  15,000

  Queen's Bench, &c. Divisions, High Court of Justice

  5,000

  Probate and Divorce Registries, High Court of Justice

  8,000

  Admiralty Registry, High Court of Justice

  1,200

  Wreck Commissioner's Office

  1,000

  Bankruptcy Court, London

  4,500

  County Courts

  30,000

  Land Registry Office

  500

  £

  Police Courts, London and Sheerness

  1,200

  Metropolitan Police

  70,000

  Convict Establishments in England and the Colonies

  30,000

  County Prisons, Great Britain

  8,000

  Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum

  2,500

  Scotland:—

  Lord Advocate, and Criminal Proceedings

  6,000

  Courts of Law and Justice

  5,000

  Register House Departments

  3,500

  Prisons and Judicial Statistics

  2,000

  Ireland:—

  Law Charges and Criminal Prosecutions

  7,500

  Court of Chancery

  3,500

  Common Law Courts

  2,500

  Court of Bankruptcy and Insolvency

  1,000

  Landed Estates Court

  1,000

  Probate Court

  1,000

  Admiralty Court Registry

  200

  Registry of Deeds

  2,000

  Registry of Judgments

  250

  Dublin Metropolitan Police

  5,000

  Constabulary

  25,000

  Government Prisons, &c.

  3,500

  Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum

  600

  Miscellaneous Legal Charges

  6,000

  CLASS IV.

  England:—

  Public Education

  150,000

  Science and Art Department

  25,000

  British Museum

  9,000

  National Gallery

  600

  National Portrait Gallery

  200

  Learned Societies

  1,200

  University of London

  900

  Deep Sea Exploring Expedition

  300

  Paris International Exhibition

  1,200

  Scotland:—

  Public Education

  75,000

  Board of Education

  250

  Universities, &c.

  1,500

  National Gallery

  200

  Ireland:—

  Public Education

  50,000

  National Gallery

  200

  Queen's University

  400

  Queen's Colleges

  1,000

  CLASS V.

  Diplomatic Services

  10,000

  Consular Services

  20,000

  Colonies, Grants in Aid

  6,000

  Orange River Territory and St. Helena

  250

  Suppression of the Slave Trade

  600

  Tonnage Bounties, &c.

  1,500

  Emigration

  250

  Suez Canal (British Directors)

  150

  CLASS VI.

  Superannuation and Retired Allowances

  85,000

  Merchant Seamen's Fund Pensions, &c.

  5,000

  Relief of Distressed British Seamen Abroad

  £2,500

  Hospitals and Infirmaries, Ireland

  2,000

  Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances, Great Britain

  500

  Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances, Ireland

  500

  Commutation of Annuities

  600

  CLASS VII.

  Temporary Commissions

  2,000

  Miscellaneous Expenses

  1,000

  Total for Civil Services

  £747,910

  REVENUE DEPARTMENTS.

  Customs

  80,000

  Inland Revenue

  150,000

  Post Office

  200,000

  Post Office Packet Service

  50,000

  Post Office Telegraphs

  100,000

  Total for Revenue Departments

  580,000

  Grand Total

  £1,327,910"

  MR. BUTTmoved the reduction of the Vote by £316,750, the amount included on account of Class 4. The hon. and learned Member said, he did not wish to persevere with his opposition then, if he had the assurance that there would be an opportunity of discussing the Irish Education Estimates. At the same time, he reminded them of a Motion he had brought forward early in the Session, on which the Chancellor of the Exchequer agreed that to defer Estimates to a late period of the Session was, in fact, to deprive Parliament of the proper control over the Estimates. To vote the Estimates and to guard the public purse was the first and highest duty of the House. But so much of their time had been taken up in patching up statutes, that the House had lost all control over the Government expenditure. When he contrasted the great promises of late Sessions with the little work done, he could not help thinking that they ought to have more time to discuss the Estimates.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a further sum, not exceeding £1,011,160, be granted to Her Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the Charge for the following Civil Services and Revenue Departments, to the 31st day of March 1878."—(Mr. Mutt.)
  THE O'CONOR DONsaid, they might without difficulty grant a Vote on Account if the Government would promise

  473
  that the Estimates should he brought on when they could he fully discussed. They were entitled to ask the Government to fix a day if they made this grant on account. It was true that there had been 32 Amendments on going into Committee of Supply, but that was because the Government had put down a Vote on Account of the Civil Service Estimates; and therefore every Member was obliged to put his Notice down, as he did not know what might take place. He thought it would be very convenient if the Chancellor of the Exchequer could state what particular Vote would be proposed at particular times.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER,while admitting that nothing could be more reasonable than that the hon. and learned Member for Limerick and the hon. Member for Roscommon should like to have a day fixed for the Votes in which they were interested, said, it was obvious that the Government could not promise a particular day for bringing on those Votes. If he had been asked a question of that kind last week, he should have said that the Army Estimates would be taken on Monday, and the Education Estimates on the following Monday. But the discussion before going into Committee on the Army Estimates prevented that course being adopted. What he proposed was, to take Supply every Monday, and next week, not only Monday, but Thursday also. He should like to devote, as well, a Morning Sitting to Supply; but he had promised that Tuesday or Friday morning next should be placed at the disposal of the hon. Member for Londonderry (Mr. R. Smyth) for the Irish Sunday Closing Bill. At the conclusion of the Army Estimates he proposed to proceed with Class 4, including the English and Scotch Education Votes, but did not think there would be time to discuss the Irish Education Vote the same evening. He wished to proceed with Supply as quickly as possible.
  MR. GOLDSMIDsaid, he understood that up to the present time only about 17 hours had this Session been devoted to the Civil Service Estimates in Committee of Supply. He wished to know whether the Secretary to the Treasury would promise that in future the House would be furnished with Returns as to the time devoted to the different classes of Supply each Session?
  MR. BUTTsaid, he would be quite satisfied with an assurance that the earliest possible day after the Army Votes would be given for a discussion of the Irish Education Vote and Estimates.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he would give this assurance.
  CAPTAIN NOLANhoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would give a day for the Education Vote for Ireland. The Irish Members had to go away long distances, and it would be a great convenience for them to know the particular day.
  THE O'CONOR DONtrusted that an early day would be named for the discussion of the Irish University Education Bill. Should the right hon. Gentleman be in a position to give a day, at some reasonable interval, for its discussion, he would not bring on the Motion of which he had given Notice on going Committee of Supply.
  MR. O'CONNOR POWERasserted that the Government was responsible for the delay in getting into Committee of Supply to-night. The whole difficulty was due to the fact that the Government was in conflict with the intelligence of the House. The Government had a mechanical majority, but they made a mistake in attempting to force legislation which was not wanted—Judicature Bills and the like. It was simply impossible that the House could continue to be treated in this manner, and for the purpose of dividing the House on the question, he should move the omission of Class I. of the Estimates. The hon. and gallant Member for Galway (Captain Nolan) had written to the Chief Secretary for Ireland on the subject, but had received no satisfactory reply.
  MR. BUTTunderstood the Government were pledged to bring on the Estimates at the earliest opportunity. The question of Irish Education rose out of that, and it would be convenient to the Irish Members to know when an opportunity for discussing the Education Estimates would be afforded.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERcould not give any promise as to the Irish Education Vote, though he hoped it might come forward this Session. As to the remarks of the hon. and gallant Member for Galway, it was difficult to pledge the Government to any particular day, because it was impossible to say

  475
  how long the English Votes might take; but he would make every effort to consult the convenience of the Irish Members, and would give them as long notice as was possible.
  MR. BUTTsaid, he was quite satisfied with the assurance of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and would withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Original Question again proposed.
  MR. MITCHELL HENRYhoped that a day would be named for the consideration of the Bill of the hon. and learned Member for Limerick, which would ensure its discussion in a full House.
  MR. PARNELLthought this was a good opportunity of asking the Chancellor of the Exchequer, what Bills it was the intention of the Government to proceed with?
  THE CHAIRMANsaid, the answer to the Question would be out of Order.
  MR. PARNELLsaid, that if Supply had to wait for these Bills, Supply would be obtained about Christmas. He was anxious to get a definite date as to when the Education Bill would come on?
  CAPTAIN NOLANasked, if it was really the intention of the Government to pass the Irish Prisons Bill this Session?—so that Irish Members might be in a position to tell their constituents if they would have to pay their share to the English prison expenses, and support their own prisons as well.
  SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHsaid, whether the Prisons Bill passed or not would depend upon the Irish Members. He was anxious in this matter to put the two countries on an equality.
  MAJOR O'GORMAN: What, Sir, do I hear? The right hon. Gentleman says in the matter of prisons he wishes Ireland and England to be on an equality. Is that what he says? He says that it is only with regard to the Prisons Bill that the Irish people should be placed on an equality with England. Why did not he say so last Tuesday week, when it was desired that the people of Ireland should be placed on an equality with the people of England with regard to the franchise? It appears to me, Sir, it is only with respect to punishment that we are to be equalized. ["Order!"] What! am I not speaking the truth?
  THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. and gallant Member is out of Order.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERthought it inconvenient to introduce discussion of these Bills on a Vote in Supply. He assured the House that the Government was anxious to get on with the Business as speedily as possible, and he appealed to hon. Members to support the Government in proceeding with the Business.
  MR. DILLWYNcommented on the conduct of the Government in running the important Business of the Session to the end of it.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERdenied that the Government were open to such a remark. If they proposed to go on with Bills, they were told they should push forward Supply. If they endeavoured to go on with Supply, they were told they should push forward the Bills. How the time had been occupied, the House was aware.
  CAPTAIN NOLANasked why there was no money asked for on account of county prisons and reformatories, while there was a Vote on Account for the Government prisons? The Chief Secretary had merely eluded the question. He moved to report Progress.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Captain Nolan.)
  SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHexplained that whether the Irish Prisons Bill passed or not, England and Ireland would be on the same footing as regarded the expenses of prisons until April, 1877. The reason why there was no change in the Vote on Account, as alluded to, was because it happened that none of the expenses of which the English counties were to be relieved by the English Prisons Act came within the current year.
  MR. O'CONNOR POWERsaid, that he and those with him were willing to offer no opposition to the Irish Prisons Bill, provided that Irish prisons were placed, exactly on the same footing as English prisons, and that the same Amendments were incorporated into the Irish, as had been introduced into the English Bill.
  MAJOR O'GORMAN: Upon the same footing! It is a pity that the right hon.

  477
  Gentleman did not mate this statement a few days ago on the Franchise Bill. It appears that the Irish people are to be put on the same footing, as regards prisons and punishments, but not as regards the franchise. ["Order, order!"]
  THE CHAIRMANsaid, it was out of Order to refer to previous debates.
  MR. PARNELLsaid, he should like to ask whether, in the event of the Irish and Scotch Prison Bills not being passed, the Government would bring in a Bill next year for the purpose of relieving the Irish and Scotch ratepayers of the year's charge thrown on them for the maintenance of the Irish and Scotch prisons, in consequence of the failure to pass these Bills this Session?
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Original Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolution to be reported To-morrow;
  Committee to sit again To-morrow.
  House adjourned at half after One o'clock.