Commons Sitting of 20 February 1877

NAVY—H.M.S. "VANGUARD."

  QUESTION.
  MR. SULLIVANasked the First Lord of the Admiralty, If his attention has been drawn to the recent occurrence of a shipwreck attended with loss of life at Bray near Dublin, owing to the Captain of the vessel mistaking for the Kish Light the light marking Her Majesty's Ship "Vanguard;" and whether he can hold out hopes of speedy measures being taken to remove the cause and prevent the recurrence of such a lamentable casualty?
  MR. HUNT: Sir, the facts which I have ascertained in reference to the affair are these—In last September a Nova Scotia vessel was making her way to Kingstown when the master mistook the light on the Vanguard for the Kish light. When he discovered his mistake he signalled for assistance, and the life-boat came out and took off the crew, but on the way to land it capsized and three men were drowned. The master or owner was at fault in the wreck not being marked on his chart. The light over the wreck is a green revolving light and the Kish light is a white revolving light, therefore there could be no mistake as to their identity. Twelve months' notice was given to mariners o: the light over the Vanguard. The light is not under the jurisdiction of the Ad-
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  miralty, though they pay for it. It is under the jurisdiction of the Irish Lights Commissioners. It is not certain what will be done with reference to the Vanguard, as the Admiralty are negotiating a contract for raising her; but supposing that contract is completed, the light must remain so long as the works connected with the raising are being carried on.

COAL MINES—EXPLOSION IN DARCY LEVER COLLIERY.—QUESTION.
MR. MACDONALDasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, If it be correct that at sundry times shortly before the explosion of the mine belonging to Knowles and Son, Limited, at Darcy Lever by Bolton, some of the coal hewers had to return home from the presence of gas in the mine; and, whether, considering the peculiar circumstances of the management in the inspection of the mine, that he will order that the inquest be watched by some other person than the inspector, in the public interest?
MR. ASSHETON CROSS, in reply, said, that he could only learn from the agent and manager of the Darcy Lever mine that they knew of no gas having accumulated for several months prior to the explosion which took place there. Unfortunately, the report book which would have shown the daily state of the ventilation was very nearly destroyed by the second explosion, and they had now no means of getting at the facts. The last accumulation of gas which they could find out to have existed was on the 21st of June, 1876. In his opinion it was as much to the interest of the owners of the mine as it was to that of the public that a public inquiry should be made. Ho had followed the course which was usual to him in such matters. He had given instructions that counsel on behalf of the Home Office should attend the inquest.

ARMY MEDICAL OFFICERS.

  QUESTION.
  DR. LUSHasked the Secretary for War, Whether, seeing the continued indisposition to enter Her Majesty's Service in the Medical Department of the Army, evinced by the scarcity of applications for commissions, he can hold out any prospect of the condition of that

  729
  service being improved; and, especially if he is prepared to place the Medical Officers upon the same footing as other officers with regard to exchanges?
  MR. GATHORNE HARDY: Sir, considering the very short time the new system has been established, I do not consider 56 candidates a small number to have presented themselves since August last. Thirty-three passed through the school this month and will be duly commissioned, and 23 are now under examination. Further, it should be remembered that three Departments are competing at the same time for medical men, and that India, being the best paid, of course monopolizes the largest share. I may mention that the greater number of vacancies is caused by the retirement on half-pay through ill health of medical officers of 20 and 25 years' service. With regard to exchanges, I have on a former occasion stated to this House that each application is considered on its own merits, and the Director-General of the Army Medical Department uses discretionary power in recommending or refusing the indulgence, having due regard to the officers' services at home. In fact, no application has been refused when an officer has been at home under three years.

TURKEY—HERZEGOVINA—AUSTRIA.

  QUESTION.
  Mr. HOPWOODasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether Mr. Ffrench, the British Charge d'Affaires at Vienna, did in compliance with the Despatch of the Earl of Derby (p. 5, Turkey, No. 2, 1876,) make a "friendly representation" to Count Andrassy to induce the Cabinet of Vienna to take measures on the frontier to assist the Turkish Government in quelling the insurrection in Herzegovina; and, what, if any, was the reply of Count Andrassy; whether Ljubibratich, a leader of the insurgents, was not afterwards captured with others by the Austrian troops, as they alleged, but ho denied, upon the Austrian frontier; whether Luka Petcovich, also an insurgent, was not taken from his sick bed in the hospital at Ragusa; and whether these and other insurgents similarly captured are still kept prisoners in Austria; and, if so, whether Her Majesty's Government would be disposed to make a friendly
  730
  representation on their behalf for their release?
  MR. BOURKE: Sir, in answer to the first part of the Question, I have to point out that the instructions given to our Chargé d'Affaires at Vienna are not quite the same as the Question would seem to imply. Mr. Ffrench was directed to say to Count Andrassy "that Her Majesty's Government would be glad to learn that the Government of Austro-Hungary had taken steps to secure the peace of the frontier and to prevent the disturbances in Herzegovina from receiving support or encouragement from Austrian territory." It appears that Mr. Ffrench was unfortunately ill at the time and unable to leave the Embassy for 10 days, and there is nothing to show that he executed the instructions, though no doubt he did so. No reply from Count Andrassy is reported. Ljubibratich, and several others, were arrested by the Austrian troops on the 10th of March of the following year, 1876, and taken to Trieste. Afterwards, I believe, they were sent into the interior. An account of this is given in the Blue Book. No further official reports have been received repecting them, and no report respecting Luka Petcovich having been taken from a hospital. Her Majesty's Government do not intend to interfere in the matter, or to make any representations respecting it.

CRIMINAL LAW—CASE OF THOMAS CUNLIFFE, A MINER.—QUESTION.
MR. MACDONALDasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether his attention has been directed to the case of Thomas Cunliffe, of West Houghton, county Lancaster, who was tried on Thursday, the 8th inst., before the Rev. J. S. Birley, on the charge of placing two tallies on two tubs that did not belong to him, value about one shilling and sixpence, and sentenced to three months' imprisonment with hard labour; whether the man was properly convicted; if guilty, whether the punishment was not excessive; and if it is true that the magistrate called out, as narrated in the "Bolton Chronicle," that the panel "would have a share of the treadmill?"
MR. ASSHETON CROSSsaid, that, in his opinion, the man was properly convicted, and the punishment was

731
not excessive. It was not a case of stealing the tallies, but of taking a tally from one tub and placing it on another, by which he would get credit and pay for himself for the work done by a fellow-workman. He could not conceive a more disgraceful or a meaner act on the part of a collier, especially, under the circumstances, because the man who really worked the coal could never find it out. He should not, therefore, wonder if the magistrate had made use of the expression referred to, for he considered that he would have been justified in doing so.

THE ROYAL ACADEMY — SIR FRANCIS CHANTREY'S BEQUEST.—QUESTION.
MR. GOLDSMIDasked the First Commissioner of Works, Whether it is correct that the Council of the Royal Academy have out of the interest of the funds bequeathed by the late Mr. Chantrey for that purpose, purchased a picture which is to be the property of the nation if suitable room is provided for it by the Government; and, if the statement is correct, to ask what course the First Commissioner proposes to follow?
MR. GERARD NOEL: Sir, when I saw the Question of my hon. Friend on the Paper I communicated with the Council of the Academy, and I am informed that negotiations are in progress for the purchase of a picture with the interest of the funds bequeathed by the late Sir Francis Chantrey. According to the will, about £2,500 a-year may be devoted to the purchasing of sculpture and works of art, but the will states—
"And it is my wish that the works of art purchased shall be collected for the purpose of forming and establishing a public national collection of British fine art in painting and sculpture, executed within the shores of Great Britain, in the confident expectation that whenever the collection shall become of sufficient importance the Government or the country will provide a suitable and proper building."
Sir, at present there is ample room in the National Gallery for any pictures which may be purchased by the Trustees for the next few years. No doubt at some future time, when the collection increases, Her Majesty's Government must consider the propriety of providing a suitable home for the works of art acquired under the will of Sir Francis Chantrey, so that they may become the property of the nation.

INDIAN COOLIES—ISLAND OF REUNION.—QUESTION.
MR. ERRINGTONasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether it is true that the French Government has agreed to the appointment of a Joint Commission to consider the treatment of Indian Coolies in the Island of La Réunion; if so, whether he will state the scope of the proposed inquiry, and the names of the Commissioners to be appointed by Her Majesty's Government; and whether he will recommend the appointment of a similar Commission for Martinique, Guadaloupe, and Cayenne?
MR. BOURKE: Sir, the French Government have agreed to the appointment of a Joint Commission to inquire into the condition of Indian Coolies in La Réunion. Her Majesty's Government are not yet in a position to state what will be the scope of the proposed inquiry, inasmuch as we are in communication with the French Government on the subject, and no definite understanding has yet been come to. The Commissioners on the part of Her Majesty's Government have not yet been named. There is no present intention of appointing a Commission to inquire into the condition of Indian Coolies in Martinique, Guadaloupe, and Cayenne.

METROPOLITAN COMMONS—MITCHAM COMMON.—QUESTION.
MR. FAWCETTasked the President of the Local Government Board, Whether, if, as reported in the public journals, the local authorities of Croydon had decided to apply for permission to convert a hundred acres of Mitcham Common into a sewage farm, he will promise either to refuse the application, or not to grant it until the House has had an opportunity of expressing its opinion upon the proposed conversion to such a purpose of a considerable portion of a valuable open space near the metropolis?
MR. SCLATER-BOOTH, in reply, said, that no official communication bad been made to him to the effect suggested by the Question. He had, however, seen in a newspaper a statement that the Rural Sanitary Authority at Croydon had it in contemplation to make such an applica-

733
tion for 100 acres of Mitcham Common. It appeared by the same report that the consent of more than 100 persons would have to be obtained before such an application could be entertained, and, whatever his views might be, no order which he might make on the subject could take effect until it had been confirmed by Parliament. The hon. Member would, therefore, see that Parliament would have ample opportunity of expressing its opinion on the proposal.

THE MAGISTRACY, IRELAND—CASE OF MR. DEVLIN.—QUESTION.
MR. T. DICKSONasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, If he will lay upon the. Table of the House, Copy of the Memorial referred to by him on Friday, the 16th, as having been forwarded to the Lord Lieutenant of county Tyrone, in favour of the appointment of Mr. Devlin to the Magistracy, and the reasons then assigned by the Earl of Charlemont for declining to accede to the prayer of that Memorial when presented in the year 1874?
SIR MICHAEL HICKS- BEACH: Sir, I am unable to lay upon the Table a copy of the memorial forwarded to the Lord Lieutenant of county Tyrone, or of any reply he may have sent to it, because the documents in question are not, and never have been, in my possession, and I only quoted them, as I stated to the House on Friday, from a correspondence I had seen in the public Press. The particular memorial signed by the hon. Member for Dungannon (Mr. T. Dickson) was not the only one to which I referred; but I may take this opportunity of assuring the hon. Member that I had no intention of attributing to him any blame for having signed the memorial in question, much less of fixing on him any responsibility for an appointment which I believe was not made, as he states, until a considerable time had elapsed since the date of his signature. So far as I am aware, however, nothing had transpired up to the date of Mr. Devlin's appointment to the Commission of the Peace which could lead anyone to suppose that his position or qualifications had in any way changed since the date of the presentation of that memorial.

THE CONSTABULARY, IRELAND—DRILL AND GUARD MOUNTING.

  QUESTION.
  CAPTAIN NOLANasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, If battalion drill and guard mounting form part of the instruction of recruits at the Constabulary Depôt, Phœnix Park; and if so, whether these are ever practised by the policeman after he leaves the Depôt; and, having in view the alleged already too military character of the police, and the fact that their cost is credited exclusively to the Irish Civil Service Estimates, to ask if such instruction in battalion drill and guard mounting is to be continued?
  SIR MICHAEL HICKS - BEACH: Sir, a few simple movements of battalion drill are taught to the recruits at the Constabulary Depôt in the Phœnix Park, such as are likely to be of use to them in their future service; for, as is well known, members of the Force are frequently called upon to act together in bodies of considerable size. There is no guard mounting parade, properly so called, but as there is a force of between 600 and 700 recruits continually receiving instruction at the depot, and it is necessary to keep a proper supervision over the large amount of public property in the magazine, clothing stores, stables, and other buildings there, guards are mounted for this purpose. I know of no way in which such supervision could better be provided than by the members of the Constabulary Force themselves.

SOUTH AFRICA—CONFEDERATION OF THE CAPE COLONIES—THE TRANSVAAL REPUBLIC.—QUESTION.
MR. GOURLEYasked the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, If he will state what progress has been made in the recent negotiations between the Home Government and Governments of the Cape Colonies towards confederation; if he will inform the House the nature of the instructions given to Sir Theophilus Shepstone with reference to his mission to the Transvaal Republic; and, if the Government have considered the desirability of annexing, by negotiation or otherwise, the Transvaal Settlements?
MR. J. LOWTHER: Sir, the Secretary of State has transmitted to each

735
of the States and Colonies concerned a copy of the draft Bill which he has prepared for enabling the confederation of the Colonies and States in South Africa to be effected, and he is awaiting the expression of their opinion on the measure. Sir Theophilus Shepstone was directed to inquire into the causes which brought about the war between Sococoeni and the Transvaal, to render all good offices with the view of putting an end to it, to confer with Her Majesty's High Commissioner, and to take such steps as may be necessary for the promotion of British interests and the protection of Her Majesty's possessions in South Africa. Her Majesty's Government are of opinion that it would be greatly to the interest of the Transvaal Republic, as well as the British Colonies, that the Republic should come under the British flag, and Lord Carnarvon has invited the opinion of the President upon the draft Bill for the Confederation of the South African Colonies and States, of which the Republic would form a part.

THE RUSSIAN FLEET IN THE PACIFIC.

  QUESTION.
  CAPTAIN PIMasked the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether his attention has been drawn to the following statement in the "Times" of the 1st February:—
  "Russian Ships of War.—'A. M.' sends us a note, dated January 9, received by him from San Francisco on Wednesday morning:—'There is a fleet of thirteen Russian corvettes in the bay here;'"
  whether the account in the "Globe" of the 13th January, headed "Russian Fleet in the Atlantic and Pacific" is correct, that—
  "In the event of war being declared between England and Russia this fleet of eleven war vessels would assuredly paralyse the grain trade of this Country and disorganise our food supply. To oppose these eleven Russian war vessels England has but seven ships in the Pacific, carrying but fifty-six guns, viz., the 'Repulse,' 12; 'Amethyst,' 14; 'Opal,' 14; 'Fantome,' 4; 'Albatross,' 4; 'Daring,' 4; 'Rocket,' 4. The four gunboats are only 100 tons larger than the 'Goshawk,' and the latter is unfit for ocean cruising. It remains, therefore, that the Russians, if they care to soar above capturing our grain ships, can oppose eleven vessels to our seven;"
  and further, in the "Globe" of the 6th February, under the head "Deserving Official Attention," that—
  736
  "Owing to Esquimault being but poorly defended, the Russian fleet could easily beat down upon it and with very little opposition seize it and its valuable stores;'"
  and, whether he will inform the House if any precautions have been taken or preparation made to guard against disaster (in the event of war) to our colony and shipping in the Pacific?
  MR. HUNT: Sir, the information at my command does not agree with that quoted by the hon. and gallant Member. It is to the effect that on the 24th of January there was at San Francisco a Russian squadron, consisting not of 13 corvettes, but of one corvette, two gun-vessels, and three gunboats. The hon. and gallant Member seems by his Questions to anticipate an outbreak of war between this country and Russia. That is an anticipation in which I do not share, our relations with that Empire being of a friendly character. Should, however, British interests be threatened from any quarter or in any part of the globe, I hope the House will rely upon Her Majesty's Government taking proper steps to afford them protection.

THE RAILWAY COMMISSION.

  QUESTION.
  SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLENasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, If it be the fact that since the month of July last the Railway Commissioners have been sitting without the assistance of a Legal Commissioner; if it be the intention of the Government to fill up the vacant office of Legal Railway Commissioner; and, if so, when is it probable the appointment will be made?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, in reply, said, that owing to the illness of Mr. Macnamara, the Railway Commissioners had since the month of July been sitting without a legal Commissioner. The Civil Service and Legal Profession had sustained a heavy loss in the death of that gentleman. It was the intention of the Government to fill up the vacant post, and he understood that the appointment, which was one made by Her Majesty's Sign Manual, would very shortly take place.

METROPOLIS—THE PUBLIC OFFICES.

  QUESTION.
  SIR CHARLES RUSSELLasked the First Commissioner of Works, Whether

  737
  some arrangement cannot be made for placing on all Government offices in a conspicuous place the names of such office, with a view to giving facilities to the public who have business to transact there?
  MR. GERARD NOEL, in reply, said, he must admit that it was difficult for the public to distinguish one public office from another, a small brass plate being in most cases their only guide. He had therefore given orders to have the names of the different offices traced distinctly over the doors, by which means he hoped the inconvenience at present felt would be obviated.

PALACE OF WESTMINSTER—THE LADIES' GALLERY.

  QUESTION.
  MR. SERJEANT SHERLOCKasked the First Commissioner of Works, Whether an arrangement can be made to restore to the ladies who visit the Ladies' Gallery of this House the waiting-room of which they were deprived last year, and the loss of which has given rise to general complaints on their part?
  MR. GERARD NOEL, in reply, said, he deeply regretted that the ladies who attended the deliberations of the House should have any cause to complain of the want of accommodation afforded; but he would look into the matter and see if any arrangement could be made which would insure their comfort.

PUBLIC HEALTH—VACCINATION.

  QUESTION.
  MR. BARRANasked the President of the Local Government Board, If his attention has been called to an inquest held in Leeds, on Monday 12th February, upon a child, infant daughter of William Perkins, alleged to have died from vaccination, the medical certificate being, primary cause vaccination; and to statements that erysipelas frequently follows vaccination, thereby causing the death of many children; and, whether he intends to take steps to inquire into these cases, with a view to giving security to parents, who are compelled by Law to have their children vaccinated?
  MR. SCLATER-BOOTH, in reply, said, his attention had been called to the death of a child at Leeds, which was
  738
  alleged to have been due to vaccination, and he had caused inquiries to be made on the subject. The vaccination, it appeared, had been performed, not by a public officer, but by a private practitioner, and at the inquest which was held the jury found that the child had died from erysipelas, but did not agree as to how the erysipelas had been caused. The child after vaccination had received an injury which accounted for the difference of opinion among the jury. He might observe that the lymph with which the child had been vaccinated had been used in other cases without prejudicial results. When cases of this kind occurred it was his invariable practice to institute an inquiry into the circumstances attending them. He had received a report on the Gainsborough case, to which he referred the other day, and had laid it on the Table. He believed it would illustrate similar cases, and be useful in showing how bad aftereffects sometimes followed vaccination as they did other operations.

METROPOLITAN ASYLUM DISTRICT BOARD.

  MOTION FOR A SELECT COMMITTEE.
  MR. RITCHIE, in rising to call the attention of the House to the proceedings of the Metropolitan Asylum District Board with reference to the establishment of a temporary Small Pox Hospital in Dod Street, Limehouse, and to move—
  "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the constitution, powers, duties, and proceedings of the Metropolitan Asylum District Board,"
  said, that the Petition with which he was entrusted had been signed by 63,000 persons, who complained of the proceedings of the Metropolitan Asylum Board, and it pointed out the injuries inflicted by these proceedings on employers and employed in the district where the Asylum Board had established their small-pox hospital. He would treat this hospital as being what it was now called, temporary, though he doubted whether it was intended originally to have a temporary character, as the Board had expended £7,000 upon it. The proceedings of the Board had been most unjustifiable, and no worse place could have been chosen for the purpose of a hospital. If the Board had taken advantage

  739
  of all the means at their disposal there would have been no necessity for such a step as they had taken, which had led to so much alarm in the East of London. There had been some excuse for the Board not being prepared to deal with the outbreak in 1871, inasmuch as they had been appointed only two or three years before that time; but their neglect of the matter in the subsequent years could not be regarded in the same light. In the year before last a Select Committee of this House found that the Board had obtained two sites—one at Fulham and the other at Deptford—which it was intended to use for smallpox hospitals, and the choice of those sites met with general approval. In October last, however, when the disease was again becoming prevalent, nothing whatever had been done towards building hospitals on these sites, and the Board was no more prepared to deal with an outbreak than they had been at the time when the Select Committee sat. On October 14 they held a meeting, at which a letter from the Local Government Board was read, urging that the building at Deptford should be proceeded with, but it seemed to be thought that there was no particular hurry for coming to a decision on the matter. The letter was referred to a committee, but he could not find that anything further was done till November 18. On that date the disease having meanwhile been spreading very seriously, there came another letter from the Local Government Board, this time urging the erection of temporary buildings at Fulham and Deptford. Treating it as they seemed to treat all communications from that quarter, the Board considered the letter, but determined, instead of following its advice, to take in tenders with a view to the erection of permanent buildings at those places. Imagine a captain when shipwreck was imminent telling his carpenter to build a lifeboat, instead of merely putting together a raft. Such conduct would very much resemble that of the Asylum Board. On the 2nd of December the Managers began at last to take alarm, and resolved to stop the permanent buildings and begin temporary ones, and if they had gone about it in the right way the hospitals might have been ready in about three weeks, and there would have been no necessity for the temporary hospital at Limehouse,
  740
  but practically the buildings were rather of a permanent kind, with great columns of brick, which required some time to dry, the other parts being of iron. On January 3, a committee of the Board reported that, with a view to a temporary hospital, they had fixed upon the building at Limehouse, the rental of which was £2,000, and which would require an expenditure of about £5,000 to fit it for a hospital. There was, he might add, no special reason why the hospital should have been established at Limehouse, for it was not intended for the inhabitants of the locality, but for convalescent patients from all parts of London. That being so, he would ask the House to consider for a moment the suitability of the present site. There was nothing, ho maintained, in the air or neighbourhood which recommended it as a good place for the recovery of patients; rather the reverse, for the hospital was situated on the banks of a canal which was stagnant, with what was known as the parochial dust-yard close by, as well as chemical works which gave forth vapours all round. Again, if any one thing bad been made more clear than another before the Committee to which he had referred it was the necessity of isolation in such cases as that of small-pox, but the street in which the hospital stood was only 12 yards wide, and the building itself abutted on the pavement for the whole of its length of 200 feet, while the front was studded with windows. There was no space between those who passed along the street and the hospital, and the end wall of the hospital formed also one of the walls of a dwelling-house. There was also a large number of factories on the spot, in which 2,000 girls were employed in making up woollen clothing, principally for the Army and Navy, and he was informed that as many more came there to take away work to their own houses. There were, besides, various parochial mission-rooms and other institutions, and a number of dwelling-houses which were let out in lodgings to seafaring men. It was evident, therefore, that there was not in the street a single element of isolation, and that the employments pursued in it were more calculated to convey infection than almost any other which he could name. Then, again, there was great laxity in the management of convalescent patients. Before the Select Committee on the

  741
  Hampstead Hospital it was proved that they were allowed to sit on the walls surrounding the building, to indulge themselves in smoking, and thus every opportunity was given for spreading the disease as widely as possible. Dr. Letheby, who was examined, expressed his decided opinion that such an hospital ought not to be erected or used in the neighbourhood of houses or even of a public road; but in this case it was in the midst of a population numbering thousands, and so close to houses that the people living in those opposite the hospital could look right into the wards and see the patients put into bed. Dr. Brewer, who was Chairman of the Asylum Board, and had been a Member of that House, stated before the same Committee that panic and fear greatly contributed to the danger of catching the disease. Dr. Letheby, whom he had already quoted, stated that people passing the hospital were liable to catch the disease, and in this manner contagion spread; that that statement was not a matter of mere opinion, but a fact, for everyone knew that the breathings and even close contiguity of patients labouring under small-pox were calculated to extend and spread the disease in every direction. But that was not all. The attention of the managers of the Asylum Board being called to the danger of persons visiting their friends, Sir William Wyatt stated that no regulations could prevent those visits. The fear which had seized the inhabitants of the neighbourhood in question was, under the circumstances, he contended, not a groundless fear, for he held in his hand a certificate drawn up and signed by 24 doctors and surgeons in the East-end of London who condemned in the most unqualified manner the institution of which he was speaking, and gave it as their opinion that it was placed in a position fraught with the greatest risk to the whole neighbourhood. Even supposing that a hospital was necessary, ho had shown that the site was the most unsuitable which could have been chosen, and many other places might have been selected which were open to none of the objections he had been urging. But, was a hospital necessary at all? Evidently, in the opinion of the Asylum Board itself, there existed no paramount necessity for one, for, in the original agreement for this warehouse, the owner insisted on having a clause inserted
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  exonerating him from any action at law that might hereafter be brought, but that was declined, as the Asylum Board refused to take upon themselves any responsibility, however remote the contingency; but, although unwilling to take on themselves this small risk, they did not hesitate to subject this populous neighbourhood to the risk attending the establishment of such a hospital in their midst, and the manufacturers and works to an additional pecuniary loss far in excess of any liability that would have been incurred by the Board. From the refusal on the part of the Board to accept the premises at all unless the objectionable clause was withdrawn, as was decided at their meeting of the 6th January, he contended that, in their opinion, no paramount necessity existed for the hospital at all. If any temporary accommodation had been required to meet the immediate wants of the metropolis, there were plenty of expedients which might have been adopted, and which, in fact, were adopted in 1871. The street where the hospital stood was the very centre of the London woollen manufacture, which gave employment to thousands of hands, and the neighbourhood would, in consequence of the hospital, be deprived of the benefits arising from the industry which had grown up in its midst, while the manufacturers would, of course, sustain heavy pecuniary losses. The agitation against the hospital was orderly and law-abiding, and there was not the slightest pretext for saying that the persons engaged in it conducted themselves otherwise than in a right and proper way. The people naturally turned to the Local Government Board, and a deputation was appointed to wait on his right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board. A great impression was made on his right hon. Friend's mind with reference to the unsuitability of the building, but he had already given his consent, and could not be induced to reverse the decision he had arrived at, though he promised to do his utmost to insure that the hospital should not be used except in the very last extremity. An appeal was also made to the Asylum Board, but without avail. A curt answer was received from them to the effect that the building was necessary. Then a public meeting was held. Sir Edmund Hay Currie, a member of the Asylum Board, attended it, and

  743
  was apparently convinced by the representations which were made that the place was not a suitable one for the hospital, and he said—"If you leave the matter to me I will undertake to provide another place within a fortnight, and the small-pox patients will not be brought to Limehouse at all." Unfortunately, that promise was not fulfilled. A second deputation to the Asylum Board asked that there might be a week's delay before the patients were put in it, but even this moderate request was not complied with, but Sir William Wyatt said they could not undertake at that moment to set aside the hospital, but, although he could make no promise, the hospital might not be required at all. Sir Edmund Hay Currie made a statement to the same effect, and Dr. Brewer said there were at that moment 41 vacant beds at the Hampstead Small-pox Hospital; and he also stated that it was quite possible the hospital might not be used at all. Another member of the Board said he had been told that not more than five or six people were seen to pass the place where the hospital stood in the course of the day, and if he had known the circumstances he would never have consented to the hospital being there at all. The deputation, after such statements as these, left in the hope that after all the hospital might not be used, but what happened? The deputation waited on the Asylum Board on a Saturday, and to their astonishment six small-pox patients were received there on the following Monday, and that while there was accommodation for patients at the Hampstead Hospital. There were then 838 beds occupied of the 900 at the disposal of the Asylum Board, so that there were upwards of 60 beds vacant for patients. He could only conclude, in the face of such conduct, that the Metropolitan Asylum Board treated the representations of the inhabitants of Limehouse and those who represented them with contempt. And what was the result? Why, that the manufacturing interests of the neighbourhood were seriously injured, and that large numbers of workpeople, alarmed for themselves and families, left their work. The statements of numerous poor persons, many of them females, were taken down. They were simple, but touching. The people were struck with panic, and would rather run the risk of being de-
  744
  prived of their bread than stay at work beside this hospital. They stated that they saw the poor patients carried into the hospital in blankets, and they presented a shocking appearance. One person who was the father of a family, and who, in addition to his own family, had lodgers, on whom he depended to a considerable extent for the support of his family, declared that, as a Christian man, he could not expose them to the danger of catching the disease. There was another objection to the hospital being retained in the neighbourhood of Limehouse—namely, that it was the resort of a great body of sailors who lodged there and who would be exposed to the contagion, and might carry it with them to sea. In fact, the most serious consequences were certain to result from it. He received a letter from a gentleman who had property in the same street, and who said that since the hospital had been opened tenants who paid him £400 a-year rent had sent him notice to quit. The constitution of the Asylum Board was such that it was practically irresponsible. It was constituted under Mr. Gathorne Hardy's Act of 1867, one-third of the body being nominated by the Local Government Board and two-thirds elected in a very indirect way by Boards of Guardians. He hoped that, as the result of this discussion, the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Sclater-Booth) would prevent any other patients from being sent into this hospital, and that he would also assent to the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the constitution and powers of the Asylum Board. They did not appear to have any consideration for the public in what they did. In fact, one of the members of the Board had boasted that they had never altered their plans in response to any representations of the public. They did not appear to hold themselves responsible either to the Local Government Board or the ratepayers, and they appeared to treat any remonstrances either from the one or the other with the same indifference. Then their powers with regard to acquiring land were far too large. If a cemetery was to be opened, notices were required under the Standing Orders to any occupiers of dwelling-houses within 100 yards of the site. But this Board went secretly and acquired land or buildings in any part of London without notice to anybody, the result

  745
  being to destroy the trade of the district and greatly to depreciate the value of property there. Such powers were far too large. There ought to be some cooperation with local authorities in procuring a site for purposes of a hospital, and objections to the site chosen should be properly heard. It might be said that if this were done the Board would be able to get no site at all. But the Local Government should have the power of hearing both sides, and of deciding which of the two parties was in the right. These were the reasons why the people of Limehouse asked for a Committee of that House to be appointed to investigate the matter with the view of having this establishment closed at once for the sake not only of their own districts, but of the metropolis generally. Having appealed in vain to the Asylum Board, and having appealed equally in vain to the Local Government Board, they now came to that House feeling sure that however humble they might be the House would not reject a petition which had truth and justice on its side. The hon. Member concluded by moving for the appointment of a Select Committee.
  MR. SAMUDA, in seconding the Motion, said, that it was one which seemed to him most appropriate for the House of Commons to take into consideration. The chief question before the House was how far the power of the Asylum Board ought to be controlled in the future. He agreed with every word his hon. Friend had uttered on the subject. He himself had taken part in that most important improvement in the Poor Law, carried through that House by the present Secretary of State for War, which, among other things, provided for the appointment of the Asylum Board, and that on the ground that he thought it would be the very best thing that Parliament could accomplish. Prior to the establishment of the Board the infirmaries were crowded with poor people suffering from various diseases; and the intention of the Bill was to separate the aged from the diseased, and that the Asylum Board should be furnished with power to select the very best and most appropriate places out of London for the reception of patients suffering from infectious diseases; but the Asylum Board took a course the very reverse of that for which they had
  746
  been appointed, and instead of taking illness out of London, they actually took a course to bring it into its most densely populated districts. They could not possibly have selected a place less suited for a small-pox hospital than Limehouse, the chief part of the population of which it was composed were seafaring men, who were peculiarly liable to the small-pox, which, perhaps, would not reveal itself among those infected until they got to sea, when it would develop itself with disastrous results to all on beard. It appeared to him, therefore, either that the Asylum Board was acting in opposition to the intention of the Act, or else that there was the greater necessity for inquiring into the powers of the Board. He did not believe that a well-intentioned Board like the Metropolitan Asylum Board was aware of the mischiefs that were likely to result from their acts when they selected this narrow street in a densely populated district for their small-pox hospital, the effluvia from which would pass down the drains into the sewers, and so into the street through the different openings. Had the Board been required by the Act to put themselves into communication with the local authorities they would have had all these things brought under their notice; and if, after having been fully informed of the facts, they had still persisted in their proceedings, those who were opposed to them would have been acting properly in applying to the right hon. Gentleman opposite. He had, however, no doubt, from what he had heard, that the Asylum Board would like to withdraw from their position had they not already committed themselves to the extent of £2,000 per annum for the rent of the warehouses and £5,000 for the cost of the fittings of the hospital. It appeared to him that this Committee, if appointed, might advantageously go considerably further than the hon. Member opposite proposed, and might make it a condition that the Asylum Board should in quiet times select suitable places for such hospitals; that the hospitals should not be permanent, but huts should be used similar to those constructed for the temporary residence of soldiers in camp; and that the huts should be destroyed when the disease had died out. He trusted the Government would not refuse the appointment of the Select Committee moved for. He felt

  747
  that a great deal was to be done, and that a great deal of good might come out of the inquiry by a Committee; and with regard to his own district, Lime-house, that the hospital, which was surrounded by the dwellings of 20,000 or 30,000 people, would be closed against the reception of small-pox patients, for whom an appropriate situation might easily be found.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the constitution, powers, duties, and proceedings of the Metropolitan Asylum District Board."—(Mr. Ritchie.)
  MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, he thought it would be more convenient if at that time he made a few observations, because other hon. Members wanted to speak on the subject, and after what he had to say they might be in a better position to do so than they were at present. He wished, in the first place, to set right some misconceptions. He could not for a moment complain of his hon. Friend for bringing this subject under the attention of the House, because he knew how deep were the feelings which had been excited among his hon. Friend's constituents respecting this hospital; but he did not think that any useful purpose could now be served by the appointment of a Committee on the subject. Although it was quite competent for the House to take upon itself these inquiries, yet, under the circumstances, there was nothing of a material character for the House to inquire into, and there was no case for the Committee, unless there were wider and deeper evils than had yet been alluded to, and some more practical object to be gained than lie had yet heard. The Committee, in his opinion, was unnecessary, because it was not a year since a Committee on the same subject was appointed by the House, when it was proposed to establish a small-pox hospital at Hampstead—the case as to which was much stronger than that at Limehouse, because at Hampstead the Board had made a permanent purchase of land, whereas the occupation of the building at Limehouse was intended to be only temporary. The purpose of the Asylum Board had been almost accomplished, and he should deprecate very much the appointment of a Committee with a view to its perhaps recommending three months hence that which in all
  748
  probability would be done in a few days. The evidence of the Hampstead Committee showed that infectious hospitals were not in themselves necessarily a source of danger to the adjoining district, and in concluding their Report that Committee submitted to the House whether compulsory powers of purchase should not be conferred on the Asylum Board, with corresponding powers of compensation, in accordance with the provisions of the Land Clauses Act. That was a practical suggestion, and if the Metropolitan Poor Act were before the House for revision, he would import the insertion of some such provision, but the concession of such powers would bring an enormous burden upon the ratepayers. The insufficiency of the accommodation at the disposal of the managers caused the necessity of setting up the temporary hospital at Limehouse, but, on the other hand, the ratepayers had been saved from the expense of maintaining two hospitals without any patients in them, and he might mention that in the summer of last year he received an application to close one of the two small-pox hospitals and dismiss the medical officers, because it was then thought that there were symptoms that the disease was dying out. From that time, however, symptoms of the disease began to manifest themselves anew, and, as had just been said by his hon. Friend, in the months of July, August, and September they continued to increase. He need not follow his hon. Friend into all the charges that had been brought against the Asylum Board. They had a painful, offensive and most thankless task to provide means for the extermination of this fearful disease at great risks to themselves, as he perfectly well knew. They had to do their duty to the whole of the ratepayers of the metropolis, and that duty had been most admirably accomplished, and as far as he knew without any dissatisfaction to the ratepayers. Ho would say at once that if the hospitals at Fulham and Deptford. had been in operation in October and November, there would have been no occasion for the temporary arrangement at Limehouse, and this arrangement was only projected because the accommodation at the disposal of the managers would not enable them successfully to stamp out the disease. They were found fault with, because they pro-

  749
  ceeded to the erection of a permanent place, whereas they should have opened a place of a temporary kind. He should have been glad if that policy had been accepted, but one of the most experienced of the managers had told him (Mr. Sclater-Booth) that nothing would induce him to undertake the responsibility of working in huts again, on account of the difficulty of keeping up a uniform temperature in places constructed of wood and felt, besides the risk from fire which was involved. He was surprised at the allegations, therefore, that were made against the Board. What was the position of affairs now? The two places about which so much had been said were now upon the point of being ready for the reception of patients, and in the course of a week from that time as many as 240 beds would be at the disposal of the management, and they would not only be enabled to relieve Limehouse, but to restore the fever hospital at Homerton to its legitimate use. His hon. Friend said there was no occasion to make use of it, because there was room at Hampstead and Stockwell. He might, however, remind the House that for some time before cases had been refused admission into those hospitals, and it was evident that the managers would have incurred grave responsibility, if under those circumstances they had not put the few cases in this district into the place where alone they could be put. Although the number of cases in the present outbreak had not been so great as in 1871, he might say that the type of the disease had been as bad as could be well conceived, and when it was found that there was as many as 200 patients unprovided for he could not wonder that they should have found it inconsistent with their duty to abstain from using the place at Limehouse. The managers having no means of obtaining sites for the erection of hospitals except under the provisions of the Act, which gave, in fact, no power at all, they appealed to the Department to place a workhouse at their disposal, and he (Mr. SclaterBooth), convinced by the arguments that were used, had done so, but the Guardians were able to resist their taking possession. It seemed to him to have been very well adapted for the purpose. The building at Limehouse was not like a row of houses in a street. It was a quad-
  750
  rangle. There were houses in front, but at either end none touched. It was said that there were 50 windows looking out upon the street, but all he could say was that the ground floor was not used by patients at all, for they were only treated on the first floor, and at the back part of the premises. As all, or nearly all, were convalescent, it seemed to him that the objections to the place from a sanitary point of view were reduced almost to a minimum. He had visited the place himself, and was convinced of the urgency of the appeal that had been made to him in December. The managers had only 60 beds at their disposal, and from every appearance at the time it was probable that all of them would be occupied within a week. He admitted that being near to the Lime-house Canal it would be an improper place for the treatment of patients in hot summer months, but having no other means of provision at hand, he was unable to resist the case which was made out for the taking of this place as a temporary hospital. That being so, and the fact becoming known, there was a rising in the neighbourhood, and especially in the street adjoining. He had been kept acquainted from day to day, almost from hour to hour, with the course of that agitation, and he had no wish to say a word against it; but, at the same time, he must state his own conviction that the agitation had been founded on a fallacy. Still, the fact that in the district there were a great number of factories and workshops, and the possibility of terror of the disease spreading among the workpeople, ought to have been taken into account. The representations that were made to him by the deputation that the interests of the industrial classes of the neighbourhood might be injured made a great impression on his mind. He conveyed that impression to the Asylum Board, and desired it to be made fully known to them that lie considered they would be better discharging their duty by refraining from using the building, if they found it practicable, for a few days longer, notwithstanding that they had spent so much money upon it. He thought, however, that the health of the community would not in the slightest degree have been prejudiced by the use of the building. The health of the community was, in point of fact, more

  751
  prejudiced by a case of small-pox which broke out in a private house, and it might have spread far and wide on account of the class of people living there. When the new hospitals at Fulham and Deptford were completed, as they would be in a week, the accommodation then available would in all human probabilty be in excess of the requirements of the public. From that time patients would be sent into those two hospitals. The convalescent patients would be discharged in the course of three weeks he hoped, and the next step would be to clear out at Homerton Hospital if it was found possible to do so. Passing by the imputations that had been cast upon the managers, who had done their best, and for which the metropolis should be grateful, he came to the question whether a Committee should be appointed. First of all, he would ask, was it required to put down the practical grievance before them? He thought the House would be unwise to appoint a Committee to deal with a difficulty which was being terminated in another way. Would it be proper to appoint a Committee to inquire into the constitution and efficiency of this Board? If he were to detail all that the Board had done, not only in the fearful business of small-pox—for that after all was but a very small part of what they had done and what they were doing—he thought the House would be of a different opinion. Suppose he were to advert to what they had accomplished for the 5,000 pauper lunatics, who must either have been committed to private asylums or kept in workhouses. From that policy the most happy results had followed. He had, he hoped, said enough to show to the House that the time had gone by for the suggestion of a Committee. They would have accommodation at their disposal more than sufficient for any outbreak of disease that was likely to oocur. His hon. Friend had said that the Board was not representative, but it had achieved great success; and though its proceedings had been reviewed by many writers well acquainted with the subject, there was no fault to find with them. He was free to admit that the relation between them and the Vestries was indefinite, and in some senses unsatisfactory, and there were many things that might be remedied; but he did not think that a
  752
  Committee was required to settle these matters. Besides, he deprecated the appointing of a Committee upon a question which after all belonged to a local authority recently appointed, and who so far had done very well, and when the grievance which it was to be called upon to deal with was really at an end. He hoped, therefore, the hon. Gentleman would feel that he had had ample opportunity of saying all he had to say on the subject, and would be satisfied with the result. He also hoped that the House would consider the explanation he had made satisfactory, and that the appointment of this Committee was quite unnecessary. He thought the hon. Gentleman's constituents would be indebted to him for having brought the subject before the House, and hoped he would be satisfied with the manner in which it had been treated and not press his Motion.
  MR. HARDCASTLEobserved that the power which the Metropolitan District Asylum Board possessed of importing small-pox patients into a crowded neighbourhood was of more than local interest and that there ought to be some check upon it. The present site ought to have been one of the last chosen by a public body and seemed to be more objectionable than that of Hampstead Hospital, which was situated in a largo and open area. As for wooden sheds, the experience of Manchester showed that such structures might be made thoroughly warm and comfortable. In connection with the Infirmary there some wooden sheds had been erected to which no objection whatever could be taken on the score of warmth or ventilation.
  MR. WALTERsaid, he hoped the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ritchie) would be content with the expression of opinion which he had elicited on the subject and not press for the appointment of a Committee. It so happened that, from the circumstance of having friends who were interested in Limehouse, he (Mr. Walter) took the trouble that afternoon to pay a visit to the locality, in order to judge of the matter from the testimony of his own eyes and ears. He was bound to say that, having gone to Limehouse with great prejudices against what had been done, and in the expectation of finding

  753
  something very terrible, he was very much staggered by the real aspect of the place. Dod Street, which was 200 or 300 yards in length, was within 100 yards of Commercial Road, one of the most airy and open thoroughfares in the metropolis. It opened out of a wide thoroughfare leading into Commercial Road, and consisted principally of the large buildings which had been mentioned and an establishment for preparing Australian meat for the market, which was not being disturbed in any way by the presence of the hospital. The rest of the street was composed of small dwelling-houses, a small grocer's shop, and two gin shops. He went into one of these—probably the first gin shop he had ever entered in his life—and found that the people were not at all alarmed at the proximity of the hospital. They told him, however, that it was very unpopular in the neighbourhood. The other gin shop was quite at the other extremity of the street, and he did not think it worth while to enter it. In the small grocer's shop, the poor woman he questioned was not afraid of the hospital on her own account, but she said it had had the effect of driving away her customers, and it appeared to him that in cases of that kind it was a serious question whether compensation should not be paid. At the back of one of the buildings there was a stagnant canal, which was particularly offensive, but he found a very large open space occupied by timber yards, &c. Never in his life, indeed, had he seen anything less corresponding to his idea of a crowded neighbourhood — anything less like Seven Dials or some parts of Westminster, for instance. He said all this simply because he felt it his duty to do so, having no connection with Limehouse, and knowing nobody who lived there or who was connected with the District Board. He would not contend for a moment that that locality was a proper site for a permanent hospital, but so far as the temporary accommodation of patients was concerned, he felt bound to say that if he had been sent down to report upon it, he could not have objected to it, and he did not think under the circumstances that the District Board, of which he had no knowledge, and for which he had no special weakness, had shown any such indifference to the pub-
  754
  lic interest or public convenience as had been alleged against them. He could not blame people for feeling somewhat uneasy at the presence of the hospital. At the same time he could say that if he himself lived in the street he should not be very much disturbed by it. Under the circumstances ho believed the hon. Gentleman had gained his point in bringing the subject before the House, and he would, in conclusion, again express the hope that the Motion for the appointment of a Committee would not be pressed to a division.
  MR. COLLINSremarked that the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Selater-Booth) had failed to touch the essential point involved in this discussion, which was the power of the Asylum Board to establish centres of infection in any district of London, he would not say capriciously, but as they might think fit. After the statement of the right hon. Gentleman to the effect that the hospital would very shortly cease to be used, it would probably appear to the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets unnecessary to press his Motion. At the same time it must be recognized that the hon. Member had done a service to the inhabitants of the metropolis by bringing the subject before the notice of the House.
  MR. COOPEthought that the metropolis ought to be protected against the caprice of the Asylum Board, and in his opinion the Limehouse people had very great cause of complaint against them. He hoped the public would not again be subjected to such arbitrary proceedings. After the discussion, however, which had taken place he trusted that the hon. Member would withdraw the Motion.
  MR. RITCHIEsaid, the debate had practically served the purpose he had had in view. He accepted the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, which he understood to be that so soon as the Deptford Asylum was ready no more patients would be sent into Dod Street, and that after those who were there became well they would be discharged, and the building not again used as a hospital for infectious disease. [Mr. SCLATER-BOOTH intimated assent]. With this assurance he begged leave to withdraw his Motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

NAVY ADMINISTRATION.

  MOTION FOR A SELECT COMMITTEE.
  CAPTAIN PIMrose to move that a Select Committee be appointed—
  "To inquire fully into the present Admiralty organization and its system of departmental and. general administration of the affairs of the Navy, as well as into the actual condition of the Navy and Maritime resources of the Country, to ascertain how far they meet the requirements of the Empire; and also into the administrative arrangements made by the First Lord of the Admiralty to insure the efficiency of the Naval Service, upon which depends the welfare and. safety of the Kingdom."
  The hon. and. gallant Gentleman declared that the proper administration of the Navy was not a Party question, and it was one of the deepest national importance. He was proceeding to remark that our squadrons in the China and. Japan seas were out-numbered. by those of other nations when—
  Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members not being present,
  House adjourned. at half after Seven o'clock.