Commons Sitting of 9 March 1876

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMTTEE—Depreciation of Silver, nominated; Parliamentary and Municipal Elections, Mr. Charles Lewis and Mr. Cotes added; Oyster Fisheries, nominated.
SUPPLY—considered in Committee—ARMY ESTIMATES—Resolutions [March 6] reported.
PUBLIC BILLS—Ordered—First Reading—Mutiny *.
Second Reading—Royal Titles [83]; Cattle Disease (Ireland) * [94].
Committee—Burgesses (Scotland) * [48]—R.P.
Committee—Report—Telegraphs (Money) * [90].
Report—Manchester Post Office* [72–100].
Considered as amended—County Palatine of Lancaster (Clerk of the Peace) * [53].
Third Reading—Council of India (Professional Appointments)* [69], and passed.

SOUTH EASTERN RAILWAY BILL.
(By Order.)
SOUTH EASTERN RAILWAY BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  MR. FIELDEN, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, observed, that of late a practice had been growing
  1704
  up of rejecting Private Bills upon the second reading. He should be sorry to advocate any restriction of the right to reject Private Bills upon the second reading; but, still, it was a right that he thought ought to be most carefully exercised. He was himself a Director of the South-Eastern Railway Company, which company proposed by this Bill to acquire power to enlarge their station at Charing Cross, because the traffic had so increased that the station was no longer large enough to enable them to deal with it. It could not be doubted or denied that additional accommodation at Charing Cross would not only be a great convenience to persons arriving from the Continent, but also to the hundreds of thousands of the inhabitants of the metropolis who used the station daily. He could understand that the hon. Member for Westminster (Sir Charles Russell) might have some objection to the way in which this was to be carried out; but he could not understand why on this account he should wish to reject the whole Bill, which contained several other provisions. It proposed that the South-Eastern line should be extended from Sandgate to Folkestone, and that the harbour at Folkestone should be enlarged. It was intended not merely to make a railway in England, but to improve the communication between this country and the Continent of Europe. The Company had for the last 10 years been in communication with the French Government and the authorities at Boulogne, with the view of bringing about a better communication between England and France; and had met with delay after delay. It was not until the wreck of last year blocked up the harbour for about a fortnight that the Boulogne authorities were brought to their senses; but now they were almost agreed as to forming a large harbour at Boulogne. The railway authorities could not improve the channel passage unless they had bigger boats; and they wanted more harbour accommodation, so that they might put on boats of the size of those which ran between Holyhead and Kingstown. In this way they hoped to shorten the journey between London and Paris by half an hour. If, however, the House should reject the Bill, the Company would be relieved from a great trouble and anxiety, and they would have the satisfaction of saying that they had done

  1705
  all that they could, but that the House of Commons would not listen to them.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Mr. Fielden.)
  SIR CHARLES RUSSELLsaid, he was not a railway director, nor in any way interested in that Bill, except in so far as it affected his constituents. He opposed the second reading, and held it to very important that hon. Members should assert their right to do so. At a quarter to 4 that afternoon the solicitor who was guarding the interests of his constituents told him that the promoters of that Bill were ready to surrender all that was objected to in it provided he would withdraw his opposition to the second reading. That proposal had taken him completely by surprise, and he had accordingly asked the other side to postpone the Bill in order to give him time for consideration; but they had refused to do so. The reason his constituents looked on the Bill with distrust was this. On a previous occasion of a similar kind they were served with notice that their buildings would be required for certain alterations, and after they had been at the trouble and expense of acquiring other premises, the railway company abandoned their scheme and left them to seek what compensation they could find. He was aware that Committees of the House could inflict penalties in such cases; but he would appeal to the House to say whether those penalties were ever enforced? He had no desire to prevent any improvement of the harbour at Folkestone. In the hope that the House would aid him in gaining time to see that the proposed arrangement was fair to both parties, he begged to move that the debate on the Bill be adjourned for a week.
  MR. RAIKESsaid, that with the view of eliciting full information with respect to Private Bills, he was in the habit of bringing about a conference between the agents of both sides; but in the present case the agents, for some reason or other, had not met him, and he was, therefore, without the information which it was desirable the House should have. The present Bill, so far as he had been able to judge, was one of considerable importance, both from a public and private point of view; and in the circum
  1706
  stances he thought it would be well to adjourn the debate.
  MR. KNATCHBULL-HUGESSENprotested against the further postponement of this Bill for a week. The hon. Baronet (Sir Charles Russell) had confined his opposition to one part of the Bill alone. Upon that part the South-Eastern Railway Company had conceded, and they were now asked to postpone their Bill, because they had made the concession which was asked. If there were no other secret reasons for opposing the Bill, for which the opposition of the hon. Baronet was the shield and pretext, his demand was really unreasonable. If the House wished to revert to the old system, and would hear evidence at the Bar of the House, it could of course do so; but, otherwise, he (Mr. Knatchbull-Hugessen) would pledge himself to make such a statement to the House as should convince every reasonable man that this Bill was one which should be sent to that Tribunal to which the House ordinarily delegated its functions in these cases—namely, to a Select Committee. He was too old a Member of the House to oppose the expressed opinion of the Chairman of Committees (Mr. Raikes) and the evident feeling of the House; but he suggested that an adjournment for a week was unreasonably long, and that the matter might stand over only till Monday.
  MR. RAIKESsaid, he scarcely considered the Motion of the hon. Baronet (Sir Charles Russell) a hostile one, and advised the right hon. Gentleman to accept it. The adjournment until Thursday next would not materially delay the measure.
  Motion agreed to.
  Debate adjourned till Thursday next.

EAST INDIA ARMY—SUPERANNUATION, &c. ALLOWANCES.

  QUESTION.
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLasked the Under Secretary of State for India, Whether the Return for the East India Army, showing the total amount of Military Charges, does not omit a charge of upwards of half a million sterling per annum paid on account of the various military funds and other charges included in the head "Superannuation, Retired, and Compassionate Allowances;"

  1707
  and, if so, whether he will amend the Return so as to show all charges on account of the Army in India?
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: No charge has been omitted from the Re-turn alluded to. The position of the military and medical funds is as follows:—In 1862 the Government of India found that a heavy annual charge was imposed by certain funds established by the East India Company upon the revenues of India, and they wound these funds up, taking over their assets and liabilities, the former of which consisted of a large capital. The annual payments on behalf of these funds exceeds the subscriptions, and the difference is made good out of the capital taken over, which now stands at the high figure of £1,800,000. There will be no charge for some years to come. The funds established in the place of those abolished, are self-supporting.

THE NATIONAL BANK OF EGYPT.

  QUESTION.
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether Her Majesty's Government have entertained any proposal for taking part in an arrangement to enable the Khedive of Egypt to raise new loans, and charge them on the people of Egypt?
  MR. BOURKE: In reply to my hon. Friend I have to state that the Answer given by the Prime Minister on Monday last substantially covers the whole ground involved in the Question of my hon. Friend, and, therefore, I cannot give him any other information than that conveyed in the Answer of the Prime Minister, to which I must refer him.
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: I beg to give Notice that I will take the first convenient opportunity of moving—
  "That it is inexpedient that the British Government should take any part in facilitating the loan transactions of the Khedive of Egypt."

MERCHANT SHIPPING ACT—THE LOAD LINE RETURNS.—QUESTION.
MR. WILSON (for Mr. MAC IVER)asked the President of the Board of Trade, Whether it is true that loss of life from the foundering of steamers in the Bay of Biscay during the few months since legislation relating to the marking
1708
of a load line has been in force shows a marked diminution, as compared with any corresponding period in previous years?
SIR CHARLES ADDERLEY: I have Returns for the half-year which has elapsed since the adoption of the load line, and Returns for the corresponding period of the preceding year, in relation to disasters happening in the Bay of Biscay. From November 1, 1874, till February 28, 1875, six steamers were lost in the Bay of Biscay, involving the loss of 175 lives; from November 1, 1875, when the use of the owner's load line was begun, till February 29 of this year, two steamers were lost in the Bay of Biscay, involving a loss of 26 lives. I have good reason to believe that the use of the load line has materially contributed to this gratifying diminution in the loss of life and property at sea.

THE ACCIDENT TO H.M.S. "SERAPIS"—CHAIN CABLES.—QUESTION.
MR. BENTINCKasked the First Lord of the Admiralty, If he would state to the House what was the size of the chain cables which were supplied to H.M.S. "Serapis" before she left England on her last voyage, and by whom those chain cables were supplied; also what was the weight and the description of the anchors supplied at the same time to H.M.S. "Serapis," and by whom those anchors were supplied?
MR. HUNT, in reply, said, the size of the chain cables supplied to the Serapis was 2⅛ inches. The cables were provided for the ship by the Thames Shipbuilding Company, and were manufactured by Messrs. H. Wood and Co., of Liverpool, and were tested in the usual manner for Admiralty cables. The length next the anchor, which was where the parting took place in the Piræus, was not part of the original cable, but was substituted at Portsmouth in 1869; it was 2¼ inches, and made by Messrs. Brown, Lenox, and Co. This length was tested at Portsmouth before the Serapis left for India in 1875, and a defective link was replaced. The broken link has been returned to the Admiralty, and had been examined and found to be of good quality of iron and well welded. The anchors were 60 cwt each on Rodgers' plan. They were manufactured by the

1709
Northfield Company, and were tested and fireproved by an Admiralty officer.

CRIMINAL LAW—DISPROPORTIONED SENTENCES.—QUESTION.
MR. JAMESasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, If his attention has been called to a paragraph in "The Pall Mall Gazette" of Saturday the 4th instant, copied from "The Liverpool Post," in which it is stated that a woman was recently sentenced at Oswestry by the local Justices to twenty-one days' imprisonment for stealing one penny worth of coal; if such statement is correct, and whether it is his intention to take steps for the mitigation of the sentence?
MR. ASSHETON CROSS, in reply, said, his attention had been called to the case, and he found from inquiries made of the Clerk of the Justices that information had been given to the magistrates that the person in question was the wife of the gardener of the prosecutor, and supposed to be, therefore, in tolerably good circumstances. It was also stated that she had been seen carrying away the coal, and that in the night time, by some one who had watched expressly for the purpose of finding out what was being done. He had asked to be furnished with further information on the matter.

MEDICAL DEGREES—"CONJOINT EXAMINATIONS."—QUESTION.
MR. ERRINGTONasked the Vice President of the Council, If he will state whether Her Majesty's Government intend taking any steps this Session to hasten or facilitate the adoption of the "Conjoint Scheme" in examinations for medical degrees?
VISCOUNT SANDON: The Government has reason to believe that as regards England considerable progress has been made towards settling the basis of an arrangement which is likely to receive general assent. We have not the like information respecting Ireland and Scotland; but if satisfactory arrangements are concluded in England, I cannot but hope that they will lead to a like result in the other parts of the United Kingdom. In this state of the case the hon. Gentleman will understand that I cannot give any opinion as to what may
1710
be the views hereafter of Her Majesty's Government as to the expediency or necessity of proposing legislative measures to promote or hasten the general adoption of the conjoint scheme.

ARMY—VOLUNTEER ADJUTANTS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. BROGDENasked the Secretary of State for War, If it is intended to give the same retiring allowances to old Adjutants of Volunteers as are now given to Militia Adjutants; and, if it is intended to give any additional pay to Volunteer Adjutants who perform the duties of District Recruiting Officers as a remuneration for such services?
  MR. GATHORNE HARDY, in reply, said, it was not intended to increase the retiring allowances of old Adjutants of Volunteers, and that no old Adjutants except those on full pay, or who came under the five years' rule, would be called upon to discharge the duties of recruiting officers.

WEST AFRICAN SETTLEMENTS—CESSION OF THE GAMBIA.

  QUESTION.
  MR. A. M'ARTHURasked the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether he has received a Memorial against the proposed cession of the Gambia, from 228 Native inhabitants of Bathurst, dated December 31st 1875; whether this document gives the status in the Colony of the persons signing it; and, whether he will lay the same upon the Table of the House?
  MR. J. LOWTHER, in reply, said, the Memorial referred to by the hon. Gentleman had been received at the Colonial Office. It purported to be signed by about 250 individuals; but he was unable to say how many persons' views were really represented in it, inasmuch as a great many of the signatories appeared to have signed their names twice over. The document gave the status of the persons signing it, and it would be laid on the Table.

POST OFFICE—POSTAL TELEGRAPH SERVICE—THE ROYAL ENGINEERS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. ANDERSONasked the Postmaster General, If his recommendation

  1711
  for the withdrawal of the Royal Engineers from the Postal Telegraph Service "on financial grounds," contained in his letter of the 23rd December lately laid upon the Table of the House, was founded on any Report on the financial results of that employment made by the Receiver and Accountant General of the Post Office; and, if he will lay upon the Table of the House, any Report that has been made by that official on the subject?
  LORD JOHN MANNERS, in reply, said, that his letter was not founded on any Report on the financial results of the employment of Engineers in the Postal Service made by the Receiver and Accountant General of the Post Office. That Report was of a confidential and departmental character, and he did not think that it would be for the public interest to lay it on the Table of the House.

WORKHOUSE SCHOOLS (IRELAND).

  QUESTION.
  MR. O'CLERYasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, for a Return of the number of Boards of Guardians in Ireland who have given results fees to their Workhouse Teachers, distinguishing those who gave such fees prior to the passing of the National Teachers Act; Whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to give effect to such Act as far as Workhouse Teachers are concerned; and, if so, are they to receive the fees earned for last year; and, whether the Commissioners of National Education have withdrawn the gratuities hitherto awarded to Workhouse Teachers; and, if so, upon what grounds, and what compensation is intended in lieu thereof.
  SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH: Twenty-eight Boards of Guardians in Ireland, or about that number, have given results fees to their workhouse teachers under the Act of last Session, out of which 11 Boards had done so before the passing of that Act. But this does not represent the full effect of the Act upon the condition of the workhouse teachers, because in several instances Boards of Guardians have preferred to increase the salaries of their teachers, when asked to grant them results fees under the Act. It rests with the Boards of Guardians, and not with the Government, to give
  1712
  effect to the Act as far as workhouse teachers are concerned; the teachers will receive the fees earned by them in the year for which the Guardians have agreed to vote them. The Commissioners of National Education have decided to withdraw a small sum of £360 annually spent in gratuities to 40 male and 40 female workhouse teachers. They have done so because this system of gratuities appeared objectionable, and by it the teachers were unnecessarily placed under the Board of Education as well as under the Local Government Board. The whole body of workhouse teachers will receive a far larger sum annually from result fees than the amount thus withdrawn.

CRIMINAL LAW—THE TICHBORNE CLAIMANT.—QUESTION.
DR. KENEALYasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether he will lay upon the Table of the House, a Copy of the Petition of the Tichborne Claimant, addressed to him on the 4th June 1875, containing certain complaints of bad treatment endured by him in Dartmoor Prison, together with a Copy of the Reply, if any; and of any other or further Petition or communication addressed to him by the same gentleman since the said 4th of June, with his answer thereto?
MR. ASSHETON CROSS: The only Petition that reached me was one dated on the 4th June; it reached the Home Office on the 14th June, but like all other Petitions for mercy from prisoners, for reasons which may be very well guessed at by hon. Members, and in behalf of the interests of prisoners themselves, it never has been the practice of the Secretary of State to lay such Petitions on the Table. But if the hon. Member wishes to see it, and will call at the Home Office, I shall have great pleasure in giving instructions that he shall see it.

CRIMINAL LAW (SCOTLAND)—CASE OF THE "AMELIA."—QUESTION.
MR. GRIEVEasked the Lord Advocate, Whether his attention has been called to the conduct of the Crown authorities at Greenock, consequent on the collision of the "Amelia" with the quay, whereby one man was killed, on which occasion the pilot, having been

1713
precognosced by the Procurator Fiscal, was afterwards called by the Solicitor representing the Board of Trade, and gave evidence at an inquiry, without being cautioned or warned, and was immediately afterwards committed, at the instance of the criminal authorities, on a charge of culpable homicide; and, whether he will take steps to prevent one public Department inducing a man to give evidence on which another Department may commit him for trial, in accordance with the declaration of the President of the Board of Trade, who recently, in the case of the "Strathclyde," stated that no official inquiry could take place until the criminal trial consequent on the verdict of the coroner's jury had been completed?
THE LORD ADVOCATE: I have made inquiries into the circumstances referred to in the Question of the hon. Member for Greenock. It appears that on the 20th January last the steamer Amelia came into collision with the quay at Greenock, when one man was killed and another injured. A Board of Trade inquiry was ordered, and took place on the 3rd and 4th February. The master of the steamer, Captain Campbell, and the pilot, James Hendry, were examined as witnesses by the solicitor for the Board of Trade. I have no doubt it is correct that neither of these persons was cautioned or warned by the presiding justices, of whom I understand the hon. Gentleman himself was one. The result of the inquiry was that the master was admonished, but his certificate was, under the circumstances, returned to him. The Court of Inquiry had no jurisdiction over the pilot, who was a river pilot, and they did not deal with him. At the conclusion of the inquiry, a charge of culpable homicide was made by the Crown authorities against the pilot, and the investigation is still going on under the directions of Crown counsel. The proceedings were not taken in consequence of the evidence given at the Board of Trade inquiry, and if a trial takes place that evidence cannot be, and certainly will not be, used against the pilot. I cannot, however, give any undertaking that if a Board of Trade inquiry takes place in regard to a casualty involving loss of life, the magistrates presiding at which had no jurisdiction to inflict any or adequate punishment upon the persons responsible for such casualty, I
1714
shall hold myself, as public prosecutor, precluded from taking the necessary steps for having these persons tried before the ordinary criminal tribunal. I regret that the pilot was not warned or cautioned when he gave his evidence at the Board of Trade inquiry; but that was an omission for which the Crown authorities were not responsible, and of which they certainly will take no advantage.

EDUCATION—LEGISLATION.

  QUESTION.
  MR. MUNDELLAsaid, that as there were already two Education Bills before the House and two Notices of Motion respecting them, he thought it desirable to ask the Vice President of the Education Department, If he will state to the House when he proposes to bring in the Education measure mentioned in the Queen's Speech?
  VISCOUNT SANDON, in reply, said, he was sorry to be unable to give an answer to the Question; but in the present state of Public Business it would be obvious to the House that it would be impossible at present to name a day when the measure referred to would be brought forward.

INDIA TARIFF ACT, 1875.—QUESTION.
MR. FAWCETTasked the Under Secretary of State for India, Whether any reply has been sent by the Government of India to the Despatch of the Secretary of State for India, dated November 11th 1875, published in the Correspondence recently issued in reference to the India Tariff Act of 1875?
LORD GEORGE HAMILTONsaid, they had not received any reply.

METROPOLIS—HYDE PARK—THE SERPENTINE.—QUESTION.
MR. PEASEasked the First Commissioner of "Works, What is the object of the mounds of earth now being erected on the south side of the Serpentine; and, if he will state to the House what will be the cost of the mounds when completed and planted?
LORD HENRY LENNOX: In answer to the Question of the hon. Member for South Durham, I beg to inform him that what he calls "mounds of earth" will

1715
shortly be turfed and planted with flowering and other shrubs. The total cost of these shrubberies was stated at page 9 of last year's Estimates, but as the item probably escaped the notice of the hon. Member, I may as well tell him that the total cost was estimated at £750, of which £400 has been already voted, and the remaining moiety of £350 appears at page 9 of the Estimates now before the House. The object of these shrubberies being placed there was to meet a very general complaint made to me and in the Press that ladies riding and walking in Rotten Row were greatly annoyed by the abundant display of "nude bathers," who during the summer evenings disport themselves in great numbers on the banks of the Serpentine.
MR. PEASE: In Committee I shall move to reduce the Vote for these shrubberies by £350.

ARMY (METROPOLIS)—SENTRIES.

  QUESTION.
  MR. HAYTERasked the Secretary of State for War, How many of the sentries at the West End have been taken off; and, whether a corresponding reduction has been made in the strength of the Guards?
  MR. GATHORNE HARDY, in reply, said, that there had been some six or seven sentries taken off at the West End, which represented 18 men. In several of the Guards there had been reduction, but in others there had not; and, therefore, the total reduction in the Guards altogether amounted to nine men.

MERCHANT SHIPPING ACTS—SCURVEY.

  QUESTION.
  MR. WARDasked the President of the Board of Trade, Whether his attention has been called to the following statement in the "Times" of March the 7th: that
  "The bark 'William Wilson,' bound for Liver-pool, arrived on the 6th March in Penarth Roads with eight of her crow down with scurvy. The captain and three officers only were able to work the vessel. The men state that they have been ill for the last two months, and that during the last three days the lime-juice and provisions were exhausted. They were landed and taken to the hospital ship. They are very much emaciated, and the recovery of some of them appears doubtful;"
  1716
  what steps he proposes to take with regard to this matter; whether his attention has been drawn to the occurrence of scurvy on board the "Talisman," lately arrived in London; also to arrival in Liverpool of the "Black Prince" and "Duke of Northumberland" with scurvy on board, and to the arrival at San Francisco of several British ships with scurvy on board; and, whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to make any new provisions for the prevention of scurvy in the Mercantile Marine?
  SIR CHARLES ADDERLEY: The Board of Trade has received a Report from the Receiver of Wreck at Cardiff that the William Wilson, of Whitehaven, has put into that port with six severe cases of scurvy on board, and that the provisions and lime-juice were exhausted when the vessel arrived. The medical officer was instructed to proceed at once to Cardiff to hold an inquiry, and report. Another medical officer, Dr. La Trobe, is at present holding an inquiry into the case of the Talisman. In the case of the Black Prince, an inquiry was held. The Medical Inspector, Dr. Spooner, reported that the causes were dirty habits of the crew, bad water taken in at Bassein, and the use of cook's slush by the men. He also observed that scurvy increased where teetotalism was practised, and recommended a ration of spirits in such cases. The Duke of Northumberland, of Swansea, arrived at Liverpool with one case of scurvy, and no complaint was made; therefore, no inquiry. No new provisions for preventing scurvy have occurred to Her Majesty's Government. The penalties on shipowners for any default of precautions are ample. The provisions of the Act of 1867 have greatly reduced scurvy.

COOLIE IMMIGRATION FROM INDIA TO GUIANA.—QUESTION.
MR. RICHARDasked the Under Secretary of State for India, Whether, with reference to the evils which, according to the report of our Consul in French Guiana attend the system of Coolie immigration from India to that Colony, it is the intention of the Government to continue to sanction the immigration in question; and, whether the remonstrances on the subject which, in the noble Lord's letter to the Aborigines

1717
Protection Society of December 24th last, he stated Lord Derby had addressed to the French Minister for Foreign Affairs on November 1st have been answered; and, if so, will he state the purport of the answer?
LORD GEORGE HAMILTON, in reply, said, a reply from the French Foreign Minister was received on the 17th of December, 1875, in which the Duke Decazes stated that the observations of the Indian Government upon the condition of coolies in French Guiana applied to a state of things which did not now exist, and he forwarded a copy of a circular issued by the local Government of Cayenne on the 16th of September, 1874. This correspondence was sent to the Government of India. The question of suspending emigration rests with the Government of India; but in all probability, before taking so grave a step, it will await the Report of 1875 of Mr. Consul Wooldridge, now due, upon the treatment of Indian coolies in that colony for the year 1875.

NAVY—THE ROYAL MARINES—INCREASE OF PAY.—QUESTION.
MR. SHAW LEFEVREasked the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether the proposed increase of pay of two pence per diem to the soldiers of the Army is to be extended to the Marines; and, if so, whether it is to be immediate or reserved?
MR. HUNT, in reply, said, no decision had been come to on the subject.

ARMY—MODEL CAVALRY BARRACK.

  QUESTION.
  MR. J. R. YORKEasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether he would have any objection to produce, for the inspection of Members, the Plans of the Model Cavalry Barrack for which Mr. Wyatt received a prize some years ago?
  MR. GATHORNE HARDY, in reply, said, that if the plans designed by Mr. Wyatt 20 years ago would answer any useful purpose, he should have no objection to produce them. They were, however, drawn up irrespective of all the sanitary conditions recently introduced. They were made as far back as the year 1856, and even then it was said that of all the plans submitted in competition, not one could be recommended
  1718
  for adoption without alterations which would change its character and design. Therefore, he thought the production of Mr. Wyatt's plan would not afford the House any useful information.

CRIMINAL LAW—THE FENIAN PRISONERS.—QUESTION.
MR. M. BROOKS: I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury a Question of which I have given him private Notice—namely Whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Ministers on the auspicious occasion of an accession to the Royal style and title of Her Majesty to advise that that event should be signalized by the gracious exercise of the Royal mercy towards any prisoners now undergoing punishment for offences in connection with insurrectionary designs or breach of their allegiance to Her Majesty?
MR. DISRAELI: Mr. Speaker, the Royal Titles Bill, on the passing of which the act of mercy referred to in the Question of the hon. Member is, according to him, contingent, has not yet passed. When the Royal Titles Bill has passed into an Act, I shall then have the honour of answering the Question of the hon. Member.

PARLIAMENT—BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE—NOTICES OF MOTION.

  QUESTION.
  MR. RITCHIE: I wish to ask you, Sir, a Question on a point of Order. I desire to know. Whether it is in accordance with Parliamentary usage that several Members should, in pursuance of an agreement among themselves, enter their names on the Notice Paper for giving one and the same Motion, in order that such Motion may be brought forward by any of the Members whose name is first called, and thus an undue priority be secured to such Motion?
  MR. SPEAKER: According to the Rule of the House, a Member can only give Notice of one Motion, with a view to obtaining, under the Ballot, priority for such Motion. If several Members combine to enter their names on the Notice Paper, and to give Notice of one and the same Motion, that rule is practically evaded. Such a proceeding would be highly inconvenient, if not irregular; and, if persisted in, the House might

  1719
  feel it necessary to cheek such a proceeding by requiring each Member, when entering his name on the Notice Paper, to enter also the subject-matter of the Motion. I trust, however, that, if such a practice has existed, as has been indicated by the Question of the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets, it has been through inadvertence; and that the House may rely on the good sense and the right feeling of hon. Members for the faithful observance of its Rule.

ROYAL TITLES BILL— [BILL 83.]
(Mr. Disraeli, Mr. Secretary Cross, Mr. Attorney General, Lord George Hamilton.)
ROYAL TITLES BILL— [BILL 83.]

  SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  MR. DISRAELI: Mr. Speaker, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, I take the opportunity of noticing a Question which was addressed to me a few days ago by the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Samuelson). I thought at the time that the Question was unfair and improper. The Question was, whether I was then prepared to inform the House of the title which Her Majesty would be advised to adopt with respect to the matter contained in the Bill before us, and my answer was that I was not then prepared to give that information to the House. It appeared to me that that Question, as I ventured to remark, was unfair and improper, because, in the first place, on a controversial matter it required me to make a statement respecting which I could offer no argument, as the wise Rules of this House, as regard Questions and Answers, have established. I should therefore have had to place before the House, on a matter respecting which there is controversy, the decision of the Government, at the same time being incapacitated from offering any argument in favour of it. I thought the Question was improper, also, in the second place, because it was a dealing with the Royal Prerogative that, to say the least, was wanting, as I thought, in respect. Both sides of the House and the whole country agree in the view that we are ruled by a strictly Constitutional Sovereign. But the Constitution has invested Her Majesty with Prerogatives of which She is wisely jealous; which she exercises always with firmness, but ever,
  1720
  when the claims and feelings of Parliament are concerned, with the utmost consideration. It is the more requisite, therefore, that we should treat these Prerogatives with the utmost respect, not to say reverence. In the present case, if Her Majesty had desired to impart to the House of Commons information which the House required, the proper time would certainly be when the Bill in question was under the consideration of the House. It would be more respectful to the House, as well as to the Queen, that such a communication should be made when the House was assembled to discuss the question before them; and such information ought not to be imparted, I think, in answer to the casual inquiry of an individual Member. Prom the beginning there has been no mystery at any time upon this matter. So far as the Government are concerned they have acted strictly according to precedent, and it has not been in my power until the present evening to impart any information to the House upon the subject on which they intimated a wish to be informed. But, upon the first night, when I introduced this Bill, I did say, alluding to the Prerogative of the Queen and Her Majesty's manner of exercising that Prerogative, that I did not anticipate any difficulties on the subject to which the House had referred. To this point, in the course of the few observations I have to make this evening, I shall recur; but before doing so, I will make some remarks upon the objections which have been made to a title which it has been gratuitously assumed that Her Majesty, with regard to her dominions in India, wishes to adopt. It is a remarkable circumstance that all those who have made objections upon this subject have raised their objections to one particular title alone. One alone has occurred to them—which primâ facie, it may be observed, is rather an argument in favour of its being an apposite title. No doubt other objections have been urged in the debate, and I will refer to them before proceeding to the other part of my remarks. It has been objected that the title of Emperor or Empress denotes military dominion; that it has never or rarely been adopted but by those who have obtained dominion by the sword, retained it by the sword, and governed it by the sword; and, to use the words

  1721
  of a right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lowe) who took part in the recent debate—"Sentiment clothes the title of Emperor with bad associations." Now, the House must at once feel what vague and shadowy arguments—if they can be called arguments—are these—"Sentiment clothes the title of Emperor with bad associations." [Opposition cheers.] I very much doubt whether sentiment does clothe the title of Emperor with bad associations. I can remember, and many hon. Gentlemen can remember, the immortal passage of the greatest of modern historians, where he gives his opinion that the happiness of mankind was never so completely assured, or for so long a time maintained, as in the age of the Antonines—and the Antonines were Emperors. The right hon. Gentleman may be of opinion that an Imperial title is a modern invention, and its associations to him may be derived from a limited experience of which he may be proud. But when so large a principle is laid down by one distinguished for his historical knowledge, that "sentiment clothes the title of Emperor with bad associations," I may be allowed to vindicate what I believe to be the truth upon this matter. Then a second objection was urged. It was said—"This is a clumsy periphrasis in which you are involving the country if you have not only Royal but Imperial Majesties." Now, the right hon. Gentleman who made the remark ought to have recollected that there would be no clumsy periphrasis of the kind. The Majesty of England requires for its support no such epithet. The Queen is not "Her Royal Majesty." The Queen is described properly as "Her Majesty." Therefore, the "clumsy periphrasis" of "Royal and Imperial Majesty" could never occur. There is, however, a stronger and more important objection which has been brought to the title of Empress, which has hitherto been merely assumed in argument. This greater objection I will place briefly before the House. It has been said that we diminish the supremacy of the Queenly title by investing Her Majesty, though only locally, with an Imperial dignity. Now, Sir, there appears to me to be a great fallacy in that position. I deny at once that you diminish the supremacy of the Queenly title, by investing Her Majesty, though only locally, with an Imperial dignity. I
  1722
  deny that any Imperial dignity is superior to the Queenly title, and I defy any one to prove the reverse. ["Hear!"] I am happy to have that cheer; but I hear and read every day of an intention to invest Her Majesty with a title superior to that which She has inherited from an illustrious line of ancestors. It is necessary, therefore, to notice this statement. In times which will guide us in any way upon such a subject I doubt whether there is any precedent of an Emperor ranking superior to a crowned head, unless that crowned head was his avowed feudatory. I will take the most remarkable instance of Imperial sway in modern history. When the Holy Roman Empire existed, and the German Emperor was crowned at Rome and called Caesar, no doubt the Princes of Germany, who were his feudatories, acknowledged his supremacy, whatever might be his title. But in those days there were great Kings—there were Kings of France, Kings of Spain, and Kings of England—they never acknowledged the supremacy of the Head of the Holy Roman Empire; and the origin, I have no doubt, of the expression of the Act of Henry VIII., where the Crown of England is described as an Imperial Crown, was the determination of that eminent Monarch, that at least there should be no mistake upon the subject between himself and the Emperor Charles V. These may be considered antiquarian illustrations and I will not dwell upon them, but will take more recent eases at a time when the intercourse of nations and of Courts was regulated by the same system of diplomacy which now prevails. Upon this question, then, I say there can be no mistake, for it has been settled by the assent, and the solemn assent, of Europe. In the middle of the last century a remarkable instance occurred which brought to a crisis this controversy, if it were a point of controversy. When Peter the Great emerged from his anomalous condition as a powerful Sovereign—hardly recognized by his brother Sovereigns—he changed the style and title of his office from that of Czar to Emperor. That addition was acknowledged by England, and by England alone. The rulers of Russia as Emperors remained unrecognized by the great comity of nations; and after Peter the Great they still continued to bear the titles of Czar

  1723
  and Czarina, for more than one female Sovereign flourished in Russia about the middle of the century. In 1745, Elizabeth Czarina of Russia, having by her armies and her councils interfered considerably in the affairs of Europe—probably (though I am not sure of this) influenced by the circumstance that the first Congress of Aix-la-Chapelle, in the middle of the last century, was about to meet—announced to her allies and to her brother Sovereigns that she intended in future to take the title of Empress, instead of Czarina. Considerable excitement and commotion were caused at all the Courts and in all the Governments of Europe in consequence of this announcement, but the new title was recognized on condition that Her Majesty should at the same time write a letter—called in diplomatic language a Reversal acknowledging, that she thereby made no difference in the etiquette and precedence of the European Courts and would only rank upon terms of equality with the other Crowned Heads of Europe. Upon these terms, France, Spain, Austria, and Hungary admitted the Empress of Russia into their equal society. For the next 20 years, under Peter III., there were discussions on the subject; but he also gave a Reversal disclaiming superiority to other Crowned Heads in taking the title of Emperor. When Catherine II. came to the Throne, she objected to write this Reversal as being inconsistent with the dignity of a crowned Sovereign, and she herself issued an edict to her own subjects, announcing, on her accession, her rank, style, and title, and distinctly informing her subjects that, though she took that style and title, she only wished to rank with the other Sovereigns of Europe. I should say that the whole of the diplomatic proceedings of the world from that time have acknowledged that result, and there can be no question upon the subject. There was an attempt at the Congress of Vienna to introduce the subject of the classification of Sovereigns, but the difficulties of the subject were acknowledged by Prince Mettermich, by Lord Castlereagh, and by all the eminent Statesmen of the time; the subject was dropped; the equality of Crowned Heads was again acknowledged, and the mode of precedence of their Representatives at the different Courts was settled by an alphabetical arrangement,
  1724
  or by the date of their arrival and letters of credit to that Court at once and for ever. The question of equality between those Sovereigns who styled themselves Emperors and those who were Crowned Heads of ancient kingdoms, without reference to population, revenue, or extent of territory, was established, and permanently adopted. Now, Sir, the hon. Gentleman the Member for Glasgow (Mr. Anderson) said the other day—"If Empress means nothing more than Queen, why should you have Empress? If it means something else, then I am against adopting it." Well, I have proved to you that it does not mean anything else. Then, why should you adopt it? Well, that is one of those questions which, if pursued in the same spirit, and applied to all the elements of society, might resolve it into its original elements. The amplification of titles is no new system—no new idea; it has marked all ages, and has been in accordance with the manners and customs of all countries. The amplification of titles is founded upon a great respect for local influences, for the memory of distinguished deeds, and passages of interest in the history of countries. It is only by the amplification of titles that you can often touch and satisfy the imagination of nations; and that is an element which Governments must not despise. Well, then it is said that if this title of Empress is adopted, it would be un-English. But why un-English? I have sometimes heard the Ballot called un-English, and indignant orators on the other side have protested against the use of an epithet of that character which nobody could define, and which nobody ought to employ. I should like to know why the title is un-English. A gentleman the other day, referring to this question now exciting Parliament and the country, recalled to the recollection of the public the dedication of one of the most beautiful productions of the English muse to the Sovereign of this country; and, speaking of the age distinguished by an Elizabeth, by a Shakespeare, and by a Bacon, he asked whether the use of the word "Empress" applied by one who was second in his power of expression and in his poetic resources only to Shakespeare himself in the dedication of an immortal work to Queen Elizabeth was not, at least, an act which proved that the word

  1725
  and the feeling were not un-English?. Then, of course, it was immediately answered by those who criticized the illustration that this was merely the fancy of a poet. But I do not think it was the fancy of a poet. The fancy of the most fanciful of poets was exhausted in the exuberant imagination which idealized his illustrious Sovereign as "The Faery Queen." He did not call her Empress then—he called her "The Faery Queen." But when his theme excited the admiration of Royalty—when he had the privilege of reciting some of his cantos to Queen Elizabeth, and she expressed a wish that the work should be dedicated to her—then Spenser had, no doubt, to consult the friends in whom he could confide as to the style in which he should approach so solemn an occasion, and win to himself still more the interest of his illustrious Sovereign. He was a man who lived among courtiers and statesmen. He had as friends Sidney and Raleigh, and I have little doubt that it was by the advice of Sidney and Raleigh that he addressed his Sovereign as Empress, "the Queen of England, of Ireland, and of Virginia"—the hand of Sir Walter Raleigh being probably shown in the title of the Queen of Virginia, and it is not at all improbable that Elizabeth herself, who possessed so much literary taste, and who prided herself on improving the phrases of the greatest poet, revised the dedication. That example clearly shows that the objection to this assumed adoption by Her Majesty of the title of Empress as un-English could hardly exist in an age when the word was used with so much honour—in an age of "words which wise Bacon and brave Raleigh spake." I think it is obvious from these remarks, made upon the assumption that the title which Her Majesty would be pleased to adopt by her Proclamation would be "Empress," that the title would be one to which there could be no objection. I am empowered, therefore, to say that the title would be "Empress," and that Her Majesty would be "Victoria, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, Queen, Defender of the Faith, and Empress of India." Now, I know it may be said—it was said at a recent debate and urged strongly by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford (Mr. W. E. Forster)
  1726
  —that this addition to Her Majesty's style, and in this addition alone, we are treating without consideration the colonies. I cannot in any way concur in that opinion. No one honours more than myself the colonial Empire of England; no one is more anxious to maintain it. No one regrets more than I do that favourable opportunities have been lost of identifying the colonies with the Royal race of England. But we have to deal now with another subject, and one essentially different from the colonial condition. The condition of India and the condition of the colonies have no similarity. In the colonies you have, first of all, a fluctuating population—a man is Member of Parliament, it may be, for Melbourne this year, and next year he is Member of Parliament for Westminster. A colonist finds a nugget, or he fleeces a thousand flocks. He makes a fortune, he returns to England, he buys an estate, he becomes a magistrate, he represents Majesty, he becomes High Sheriff; he has a magnificent house near Hyde Park; he goes to Court, to levees, to drawing rooms; he has an opportunity of plighting his troth personally to his Sovereign, he is in frequent and direct communication with her. But that is not the case with the inhabitant of India. The condition of colonial society is of a fluctuating character. Its political and social elements change. I remember 20 years ago a distinguished statesman who willingly would have seen a Dukedom of Canada. But Canada has now no separate existence. It is called the "Dominion," and includes several other Provinces. There is no similarity between the circumstances of our colonial fellow-subjects and those of our fellow-subjects in India. Our colonists are English; they come, they go, they are careful to make fortunes, to invest their money in England; their interests in this country are immense, ramified, complicated, and they have constant opportunities of improving and enjoying the relations which exist between themselves and their countrymen in the metropolis. Their relations to the Sovereign are ample; they satisfy them, the colonists are proud of those relations, they are interested in the titles of the Queen, they look forward to return when they leave England, they do return—in short, they are Englishmen. Now let me say

  1727
  one word before I move the second reading of this Bill upon the effect which it may have on India. It is not without consideration, it is not without the utmost care, it is not until after the deepest thought that we have felt it our duty to introduce this Bill into Parliament. It is desired in India. It is anxiously expected. The Princes and nations of India—unless we are deceived, and we have omitted no means by which we could obtain information and form opinions—look to it with the utmost interest. They know exactly what it means, though there may be some hon. Members in this House who do not. They know in India what this Bill means, and they know that what it means is what they wish. I do myself most earnestly impress upon the House to remove prejudice from their minds and to pass the second reading of this Bill, without a division. Let not our divisions be misconstrued. Let the people of India feel that there is a sympathetic chord between us and them; and do not let Europe suppose for a moment that there are any in this House who are not deeply conscious of the importance of our Indian Empire. Unfortunate words have been heard in the debate upon this subject. But I will not believe that any Member of this House seriously contemplates the loss of our Indian Empire. I trust, therefore, that the House will give to this Bill a second reading without a division. By the permission of the Queen I have communicated, on the part of my Colleagues, the intention of Her Majesty, which She will express in her Proclamation, if you sanction the passing of this Bill. It will be an act, to my mind, that will add splendour even to her Throne, and security even to her Empire.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Mr. Disraeli.)
  MR. SAMUELSONsaid, that the right hon. Gentleman, in the observations which he had made to the House, had condescended to make an allusion to a Question which he had asked the other evening, and which he had described as unfair and improper. He thought that expression was hardly courteous—was hardly more courteous than the answer that the right hon. Gentleman gave to his Question on Tuesday last.
  1728
  Now, he (Mr. Samuelson) thought the name of Her Majesty had been very improperly imported into the debate by the right hon. Gentleman. If the question which the House had to determine were one solely affecting the pleasure and gratification of Her Majesty, he was sure the House would act as it had always done, and give to the consideration of this Bill its most favourable attention. Her Majesty had reigned now for nearly 40 years, and in the course of that time the love and affection of her people had been evinced from year to year, and within the last two days She had performed an act which would more than ever endear her to her subjects. It was as Queen of England she would always be remembered, and it was by her Queenly title that her memory would descend to posterity. The question, however, they were now asked to entertain was not one affecting Her Majesty. It was one of high policy—a question in which by this Bill the House was invited to take part. [Cries of "Agree."] It was not often that he troubled the House with any remarks, and he begged for its indulgent attention. To his mind it was more than doubtful whether the addition of the title of Empress was an act of high policy. It was, in his opinion, an act of the most questionable policy to have introduced this Bill at all, and he had not heard any reason calculated to remove the prejudices which existed with regard to this matter. The right hon. Gentleman had said that the time had come when the relations between the people of England and the people of India were such that some recognition of Her Majesty's title had become absolutely necessary; and, furthermore, that it was desirable to recognize the transfer of the dominion of India from the East India Company to the Crown. That transfer took place 18 years ago, and the right hon. Gentleman seemed to have forgotten that it was acknowledged by the Proclamation of Her Majesty when the Queen was styled "of the United Kingdom and of her dominions in Europe, Asia, Africa, and America, Queen, Defender of the Faith." The right hon. Gentleman had said that this addition to Her Majesty's title would be agreeable to the Princes and people of India; but he had produced no evidence in support of that assertion. The right bon. Gentleman had endeavoured

  1729
  to explain away the prejudices which existed against the title of Emperor, and had referred to the time of the Antonines. Instead of going back to that time, some 1,700 years ago, it would have been much better had he devoted his attention to the events of the present time, when he would have discovered why the title of Emperor was not consonant with the feelings of the people of this country. He need not remind the House of the antecedents of the Second Empire in a neighbouring country in our own days—how it was founded in the orgies of the Camp of Satory—how it was confirmed by the slaughter and the barricades of Paris, and how it ended ingloriously in the catastrophe of Sedan. With regard to the German Empire, whatever might be the facts in reference to the policy of its creation it had been contemporaneous with an outbreak of religious strife between Catholics and Protestants. In dealing with India it must be remembered that there were great varieties of religions and race suggestive of strife. The right hon. Gentleman stated that he knew what were the sentiments of the Princes and Natives of India. Now, he must be considered a bold man who would undertake to say what was the current of public opinion in India. Did we know at this moment what had led to the Sepoy rebellion? And if the assumption of this title should happen to coincide with monetary derangement which seemed impending in consequence of the depreciation of silver, how did we know in what light the connection of the two subjects would be regarded in India? He himself considered this to be a gratuitous act on the part of the Government, one to justify which, as he had before said, no sufficient evidence had been adduced. He thought the right hon. Gentleman, having recently elevated certain persons to the Peerage, and given a step to certain Noblemen in its hierarchy, would have done better had he rested there. In his (Mr. Samuel-son's) opinion, the right hon. Gentleman ought, on the first reading of the Bill, to have plainly answered the Question put by the right hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. John Bright), and thought it was not quite fair the House should be called upon that evening to decide the matter without time being given for reflection. The country ought to have
  1730
  proper notice, so as to have an opportunity of expressing its views. The Princes of India should not alone have been taken into the councils of the right hon. Gentleman to the exclusion of this House and of the people of this country. Therefore, he begged to move the Adjournment of the Debate.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Samuelson.)
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLsaid, he had on a former evening ventured to express his humble concurrence in the general policy of this measure. In every way it was desirable and would be acceptable to the people of India that some step should be taken distinctly to mark the Imperial character of our reign in that country. As to what the new title should be, he had expressed no opinion, and he did not desire to express a very decided opinion now; but he would state some facts which might, perhaps, lead to the formation of an opinion on the subject. Looking at the question from an Indian point of view, whether the title was that of Empress or that of Queen, the end to which he looked, and to which he believed the Government also looked, would equally be attained, and the one title would as well answer the purpose in India as the other. The question as between Empress or Queen was, therefore, one that might and should be determined with reference to English considerations. He had created a good deal of hilarity on a former evening, when he gave it as his opinion that in taking the step she was now advised to take, it would be well that Her Majesty should mark that she succeeded to the position of the Great Mogul. On the other hand, the hon. Member for Hackney, instead of being amused by that suggestion, lectured him very severely for making it, describing the Great Moguls as fierce and barbarous conquerors and oppressors. Now, he said that the memory of the Great Mogul was not one that excited either laughter or hatred in India. His memory and name were very great. It might be that, judged by a modern standard, his Empire was not a perfect one; but judged by the standard of the 18th century, it was very great and glorious, and was in many respects an excellent and

  1731
  good Empire. It was remarkable for religious toleration to a degree that did not exist in Europe in those days. Hindoos were tolerated, and placed in a social position under that Empire which Nonconformists had not then attained in Great Britain. In some respects the poor were protected from the rich and the grasping in a way which was not done in our own Empire. Great arts, great monuments, great laws, many great reminiscences of that Empire had made the memory of the Great Mogul a power in India which continued to the present day. When our power was overthrown by the Mutiny, the King of Delhi was set up in our place, which showed that the memory of the Great Mogul, to whose power Her Majesty had succeeded, was still existent. Whether the Queen took the title of Queen or Empress, he thought it would equally be translated by the Oriental word Bad-shah, which was derived from a Sanskrit root, and signified "Protector King." That was peculiarly appropriate, and the question really was how it was to be translated into English. They had always translated it King. That being so, the question became one whether there was now any necessity for the title of Empress of India. The Prime Minister had shown with great force that in reality the title of Empress was not higher than that of Queen, and did not carry greater state or dignity. Therefore he was at some loss to understand why he should consider it necessary, as an appeal to the imagination of the people, to give the title of Empress rather than that of Queen. Another consideration urged was this—In modern Europe—as in the ease of the German Emperor—Emperor, it was said, was the title of a Sovereign who reigned over Kings; and in that respect it might be thought that Emperor was superior to King. Well, if there were Kings now ruling in India, it might be desirable to have a title superior to them, and to adopt the style of Empress instead of Queen. But in reality in India there were no Princes who assumed or claimed the position of Kings, and therefore there was no necessity that the title of Empress should be taken in preference to that of Queen. The titles of the Native Princes were all taken from, and borne in subordination to, the former Sovereigns of India. Most of them
  1732
  held under the Great Mogul. The Nizam of Hyderabad and of the Deccan was Governor General of the Dec-can. The other great Mahomedan Viceroys, in Bengal and Onde, for instance, took titles which were distinctly marked in subordination to the Great Mogul. Similarly, as regards the Mahratta States, Scindia, Holkar, and the Prince of Baroda did not assume Royal titles, but were marked in subordination to the head of the Mahratta confederacy. True, there were Rajahs and Maharajahs, and as Rajah came from the same root as Re or Rex, it might in some sense be translated King. But it was well known in India that many subjects bore the title of Rajah and Maharajah, and therefore these titles could not be taken to refer to a "King." He believed the visit of the Prince of Wales was an occasion on which the Native Princes had shown openly their disposition to accept their position as feudatories of the Queen, and the people of India their loyalty to the Crown. As, therefore, from the Indian point of view, there was no reason for the title of Empress in preference to Queen, it remained to refer to the feelings of the people of this country, and he feared Her Majesty had not been advised to take the wisest course in adopting the title of "Empress." When one met a dozen men in the street and all concurred in one view, it might be taken as some evidence of the opinion of the people. He had consulted many in the street, and found that all held that the title "Queen of England" was a magnificent title, and that it would be a great pity to alter it. He would advise the Government to consult the feelings of the people of this country.
  MR. NEVILLE-GRENVILLEentirely differed from the hon. Member who had just spoken, that the people of this country required any notice of the adoption of any additional title by Her Majesty. She was supreme Ruler and Governor, subject only to that Higher Power "by whom alone Kings reign and Princes decree justice." He was glad to hear that Her Gracious Majesty was not to be shorn of those appendages to her style and title the omission of which would indeed give great offence to the people of this country. Her Majesty was, "by the grace of God," Queen of Great Britain and Ireland, and "De

  1733
  fender of the Faith," and he hoped that she would long continue to reign in that capacity.
  MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, there is one sentiment expressed by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli), towards the conclusion of his speech, which certainly I feel the force of. He expressed his great desire that there should be no division on this subject. I go so far, at least, with him that I am deeply convinced that this is a matter which cannot be settled in a manner satisfactory to the feelings of those concerned by any mere majority. The acceptance of the Bill by the mere vote of a majority—and, possibly, a Party majority—would, in my opinion, be very far from attaining the object which the right hon. Gentleman has in view; and the loss of the Bill through an adverse vote would likewise, in my opinion, be attended with serious evil. On this account I, for one, have been desirous to take time, and to avoid all hasty and precipitate declarations of opinion on the question; and, although the leaning and tendency of the sentiments I entertain will be obvious enough from what I have to say, yet I do not desire to give any opinion at this moment on the question whether it would or would not be right—for I have no control over the vote of any Gentleman in this House—to accede to the request of the right hon. Gentleman, and to allow the second reading of the Bill to pass without a division. What I shall attempt to do is this—I shall endeavour to weigh the reasons which have been given by the right hon. Gentleman for the measure he has introduced. I shall point out certain considerations which undoubtedly appear to me greatly to recommend—not with any hostile view, but in order simply to obtain full deliberation—the Motion made by my hon. Friend (Mr. Samuelson), for which, I may say, I have no personal responsibility; and I may likewise add a few words on the question of the title the Queen now bears as compared with the title which it is proposed to give. Now, I would point out what appears to be an incorrect and misleading use of an important phrase that has more than once been observable in the speech of the Prime Minister. When asked for a declaration on the subject of the advice it was his intention to tender to Her Majesty, he spoke of the pressure ex
  1734
  ercised upon him as an attempt to interfere with the Prerogative of the Crown; and he has told us to-day, in words that are perfectly true and undeniable, of the manner in which that Prerogative has been exercised by the Sovereign during her reign, as if he considered that in this matter we had, at any rate, some concern with the Prerogative of Crown. I wish. Sir, to get rid of this misleading expression. Prom the beginning of this discussion to its present stage, and from its present stage till its close, we have had, and shall have, nothing whatever to do with the Prerogative of the Crown. Statute and Prerogative are logically exclusive of one another. The Prerogative of the Crown does not require, and does not depend on, statute; the statutory power conferred upon the Crown has no relation and no concern with Prerogative; and the question now before us is as to the policy of conferring any statutory power upon the Crown with respect to its Royal style and title, and the question is what that power shall be and how it shall be used. Now, if I understand the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, he alleges two grounds for his proceedings—one is precedent, and the other is the desire of India; but as to positive argument in support of his proposal, I do not find a trace. Now, as regards precedent, it appears to me that the right hon. Gentleman has been wholly misled in his reading of what he terms the precedent of the Act of Union. For what is it that has given rise to uneasiness, and has created difference of opinion in this House? What is it that creates—I will not use too strong a word—misgiving and mistrust in every circle and in every portion of society with which I am conversant? but, as far as regards this question, I have been hardly able to trace any political distinction (as in respect to the Suez Canal) in the feelings and opinions on the subject. But what is the force and effect of the precedent the right hen. Gentleman thinks he has found. In the first place, the precedent is wholly detached from the matter which is now, if I may so say, in dispute, because it has exclusive reference to the enumeration of territories and powers which were granted; whereas the matter about which differences of opinion now exist is not the enumeration of territories at all, but the designation of the

  1735
  Sovereign herself. The right hon. Gentleman appears to me not to have perceived the very peculiar circumstances out of which the adoption of the empowering method, instead of the enacting method, arose in the year 1801. If I read the circumstances of the time aright, it would hardly be too much to say that Parliament had no power but to proceed by empowering enactment; and why? Because there was the question of a Treaty between two perfectly independent Legislatures, and if Parliament had done what was done in the reign of Henry VIII., when the title of Supreme Head was conferred on the Crown by statute, it would undoubtedly, as it appears to me, have invaded the province of the Legislature of Ireland had it attempted to give—what it had done by Resolution—statutory powers in Ireland by its own act to the title which it was in contemplation the Sovereign should assume. By the expedient adopted, the Crown was placed in a position to exercise the power that Parliament had conferred, according to the known intentions of the Parliament of England and likewise the known intention of the Parliament of Ireland. But, as I said just now, this precedent quoted by the right hon. Gentleman has no concern whatever with the designation of the Sovereign, and my authority for saying so is a speech by Mr. Pitt himself. In moving the Resolution he used these words—
  "It will be seen that the article merely relates to the name of the United Kingdom, upon which, I apprehend, no difference of opinion can exist."
  The power given had relation to the name of the kingdom which is not now at all in question, and in 1801 the designation of the Sovereign was equally out of the case and out of the view of Parliament. I come now to the other argument which the right hon. Gentleman alleges, the desire of India, and he alleges this desire in very strong and very remarkable terms. It is said that this change is desired by Princes and by people, and we are told that the Government have ample means of making inquiry, and that they have not neglected those means. Upon this statement I have two remarks to make. First, it would appear as if the people of India had been much more in the
  1736
  confidence of the right hon. Gentleman than the British Parliament. We have not known what advice was likely to be tendered to the Sovereign; whereas, according to the right hon. Gentleman, the Princes and the people of India have been aware of it all along, and have conclusively made known the feelings they entertain on the subject. But if that is so—if the right hon. Gentleman is in possession of this evidence of the feelings of the Princes and the people of India—why has he not laid it before us? I say that we have every title—every moral title, every Parliamentary title—to be put in possession of that evidence, and that my hon. Friend behind me (Mr. Samuelson) is within his right when he asks that before he is called upon to decide upon the very delicate question contained in the right hon. Gentleman's speech to-night, time may be given him for the purpose of receiving such evidence. I urge this matter most seriously upon Her Majesty's Government. I beg we may have in an official shape this evidence which the right hon. Gentleman possesses of the manifest desire of the Princes and people of India with respect to the title which it is proposed Her Majesty should assume. In my opinion, this is a matter of the greatest importance. We have had some declarations in this House with respect to India. The hon. Member for West Cumberland (Mr. Percy Wyndham), who is well known for his ability, on the night when the right hon. Gentleman first made his proposal, said that an Imperial title would be the one most suitable, because it would signify that Her Majesty governed India without the restraints of law or constitution.
  MR. PERCY WYNDHAM: I said that the Government of India was a despotic Government, not in the hands of one person, and not, as in this country, a Constitutional Government in the hands of the Queen and the Houses of Lords and Commons. The Government of India is essentially a despotic Government as administered by us, although it includes more than one individual.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I am very much obliged, and I perceive completely the hen. Member's meaning; but I am sorry that to that meaning as it stands I take the greatest objection. If it be true—and it is true—that we govern India without the restraints of a law except

  1737
  such law as we make ourselves—if it be true that we have not been able to give to India the benefit and blessings of free institutions—I leave it to the hon. Gentleman—I leave it to the right hon. Gentleman, if he thinks fit—to boast that he is about to place that fact solemnly upon record. By the assumption of the title of Empress I, for one, will not attempt to turn into glory that which, so far as it is true, I feel to be our weakness and our calamity. What do we know of the juridical effect of the measure which the right hon. Gentleman has proposed? Of that subject he has not said one word. I am not competent to enter into it; but the learned Gentleman behind me (Dr. Kenealy), who is accomplished in his knowledge of the law, is able to do so. There are many hon. Members in the House who can supply the defect; but I wish to bring to the attention of the Government that which appears to me to be a very serious point in this question, of which the right hon. Gentleman has not taken the slightest notice. He has introduced to us a Bill which states that an Act of Her Majesty enacted—
  "That the Government of India, theretofore vested in the East India Company in trust for Her Majesty, should become vested in Her Majesty, and that India should thenceforth be governed by and in the name of Her Majesty."
  I am not now speaking of the word "Empress," but of India, and I wish to bring into view a serious question, and a question wholly unexplained to this moment, which may be involved in any statutory establishment of the name of India in the title of the Sovereign. If I read the Act for the government of India correctly, the recital of the Preamble of this Bill is inaccurate. As I read it, it is not true that the government of India has been vested in Her Majesty; and it is not true that it has been enacted that—"India should thenceforth be governed by and in the the name of Her Majesty." Now, this is a matter of very considerable delicacy and importance. The Act for the government of India provides, in the 1st clause, that—
  "The government of the territories now in the possession or under the government of the East India Company, and all powers in relation to the government, vested in or exercised by the said Government in trust for Her Majesty, shall cease to he vested in or exercised by the said Company, and all territories in the possession or
  1738
  under the government of the said Company and all rights vested in or which may have been exercised by the said Company in relation to any territories, shall become vested in Her Majesty, and exercised in Her name."
  That is the great operative part of the clause. It is clear that the operative part of it does not embrace the entire country of India. ["Oh, oh!"] Let the hon. Gentleman who disposes so easily of this question point out to me a legislative or a judicial decision, and I shall then pay the greatest respect to what he says; but for the present I must be content to proceed on my way without the advantage of his approval or support. The operative part of the clause is carefully limited to the countries which had been held in trust for Her Majesty by the East India Company. The clause ends by saying—
  "And for the purposes of this Act India shall mean the territories vested in Her Majesty aforesaid, and all territories which may become vested in Her Majesty by the aforesaid."
  I may he wrong; but it is clear that this was the draftsman's expedient, as it was impossible to go on reciting the long and cumbrous description which I have read—namely, the description of these territories. It is plain, therefore, that the government of India—that is, the entire India—never has yet, by statute, been vested in Her Majesty; but that which has been vested is the government of the countries which were held in trust for Her Majesty by the East India Company. I would be the last man to raise this question if it were a mere verbal quibble. It is as far as possible from being a question merely verbal; the speech of my hon. Friend who has just sat down indicates that it is no verbal quibble. He says his desire is—though I am glad that he at any rate hesitates as to the title of Empress—that the Queen shall assume some title in respect to India which shall show that she is assuming the possession of the powers of the Great Mogul. [Sir GEORGE CAMPBELL: As the representative of the nation.] I quite understand that; my hon. Friend is much too constitutional a Member of Parliament to omit that qualification. If I understand my hon. Friend aright—and he speaks with much authority on the subject—he distinctly assures us that the supremacy of the Great Mogul extended over all the Na

  1739
  tive Princes of India within the limits of the dominion which we call India. What I want to know is this—has that supremacy, that dominion, ever been, legislatively or even judicially, up to the present moment, assumed either by the East India Company or by the Queen, who succeeded the East India Company? It would be the utmost presumption if I were to speak dogmatically upon this subject; I believe it to be a question admitting of very considerable difference of opinion. As we have very great varieties of relations with the remaining Native States, as in some cases any independence that they possess is nothing more than nominal, as in some cases our powers over them either have been obtained by Treaty or are of a limited character, I would point out to the House that in regard to our power in India—that vast and curiously-constructed fabric of which we are the stewards, and which it is our duty to maintain so long as any obligation connected with that power remains to be fulfilled—we are under the most solemn obligations to proceed with caution, with circumspection, with a strict regard to principles of law, with strict regard to the lessons of history, in every stop we take in this great matter. Whether my principle be right or not in the allegation made respecting a former Sovereign of India, I am under the belief that to this moment there are important Princes and States in India over "which we have never assumed dominion, whatever may have been our superiority of strength. We are now going by Act of Parliament to assume that dominion, the possible consequences of which no man can foresee; and when the right hon. Gentleman tells us the Princes of India desire this change to be made, does he really mean to assure us that that is the case? If so, I require distinct evidence of the fact. There are Princes in India who, no doubt, have hitherto enjoyed no more than a theoretical political supremacy, but do they desire to surrender even that under the provisions of this Bill? I cannot conceive a stronger argument addressed to Her Majesty's Government, and it is with them and not with us that the burden of proof lies upon this question. The right hon. Gentleman is going to advise the Queen to become Empress of India. I raise the question, What is India? I have said that the dominion
  1740
  now vested in Her Majesty is limited to the territories vested in the East India Company. I ask whether the supremacy of certain important Native States in India ever was vested in the Company or whether it was not? We are bound to ask the right hon. Gentleman—and I think he is bound to answer the question through the medium of his best legal authorities—whether this supremacy is so vested or not, and whether he can assure us upon his responsibility that no political change in the condition of the Native Princes of India will be effected by this Bill. If there is a political change effected, I do not hesitate to say I do not think it would be possible to offer too determined an opposition to the proposal of the Government. Instead of saying, as I do, that I feel every desire to postpone coming to a decision, I should say it would be an act of temerity almost approaching to insanity, for any purpose such as the right hon. Gentleman has described, were we, the British Parliament, to consent to effect a change in the political status and position of the Sovereigns of India, with respect to whom we at least are not in a state of ignorance. I feel with the right hon. Gentleman—indeed, I feel a little more than the right hon. Gentleman—the greatness, the unsullied greatness, of the title which is now borne by the Queen of England. I think I use the language of moderation when I say that it is a title unequalled for its dignity and weight, unequalled for the glory of its historic associations; unequalled for the promise which it offers to the future, among the titles of the Sovereigns of Europe, among all the states and nations on the earth. Sir, I have a jealousy of touching that title, and I am not to be told that this is a small matter. There is nothing small in a matter, in my judgment, which touches the honour and dignity of the Crown of England. These matters are all great—they are far-reaching—they have an importance even for the life of our Sovereign, which I hope will be long preserved, and they reach far into the future of England. You should not take a step in advance now which hereafter you may possibly have to regret or retract. You should consider very carefully the whole of these questions which touch the Sovereign—such are the lessons I have learnt from my political instruc

  1741
  tors, and such are the lessons I try to hand down—you should consider all that touches the Crown as matters of the highest delicacy, of the highest importance, and part, the most sacred portion, of the same power which we are called upon to administer on behalf of the Empire. I own I think there ought to be strong reasons—reasons of much more strength than I have gathered from the statement of the right hon. Gentleman—to induce us to run the smallest risk of putting in jeopardy this magnificent and noble title of the Queen of England. I am not speaking of the institutions of France; but speaking of the associations and history of the title of "King of France," it might have put itself into competition with the British Crown, but that title of "King of France," has been entirely swept away, and an article of modern manufacture, when Royalty has been set up in France, has been substituted for it. It has been the misfortune of that great country to feel itself compelled in a considerable degree to encounter one of the heaviest of all calamities—namely, to break with its own past, to sever its present traditions from those which it had accumulated in other days. We have all our misfortunes and dangers, but that is a calamity which this country has never been called upon to encounter, and which, I trust, it never shall. What I fool about this Imperial title is that, with the greatest possible respect for Emperors now subsisting, and more oven than respect it may be, and not at all questioning that the perfect legitimacy of the titles which they bear, as justified by the circumstances in which they stand, I am not very willing to have the title of Queen of England—without very strong reasons shown me—brought into any sort of competition with theirs. The right hon. Gentleman has, indeed, manfully contended that there is no inferiority in the title of King as compared with that of Emperor, and I believe the state of the matter diplomatically is this—that the question of precedence has never absolutely been ruled upon as between one King and Emperor or another King and Emperor. That has never been absolutely ruled amongst the Courts of Europe. But this, I think, has been the case—that practically, whenever the title of King has come into competition with that of Emperor, up to this moment
  1742
  either the former title has been completely absorbed or has assumed the second place. If I take the Kingship of the Emperor of Austria when he was King of the Romans and also King of Hungary, I find that he was never heard of as King of Hungary or King of the Romans, except in the days when he was crowned with the iron crown in the Cathedral of Milan. He was called Emperor of Austria, and in that title his Kingship was practically swallowed up. Under the teaching of circumstances which perfectly warrant the act, the King of Prussia, as he was a few years ago, has become the German Emperor, and has ceased to be King of Prussia; but whether that title is technically used or not I cannot speak positively; but we know that his Kingship is entirely absorbed in that of Emperor. Now, I want to know why I am to be dragged into novelties, or into comparisons on a subject of this sort? If it be that Queen of the United Kingdom is still to remain the superior title, what do we then do? We introduce a completely new anomaly into the nomenclature of titles, because undoubtedly the title of Emperor has certain pretensions: they are not given up, but they are exhibited by the facts I have just recited, that, where the two come into competition, the title of Emperor prevails. But why are we to invent another innovation and say that from the principal and central, and I do not hesitate to say the superior, dominion Her Majesty shall derive the title of Queen, but that from the scondary dominion she shall derive the higher title—namely, the title of Empress. Is there a difference between the two titles; and, if so, is it a difference of which we ought to take note? History, in my opinion, goes far to determine that question. There is on the title of Emperor a historic stamp. The right hon. Gentleman cannot escape from the whole of the records of history by quoting Gibbon and the peculiarly exceptional and solitary period of the Antonines. We have not always got Antonines to govern us. If we had, oven some of the machinery and labour of this House might be dispensed with. The title of Emperor is distinguished, it seems to me, in history from the title of King by two characteristics. The title of King is commonly and by usage hereditary. If we except Poland, there is no other very strong case we can

  1743
  quote historically of the elective character in conjunction with the title of King. The title of King is, as I have said, hereditary; the title of Emperor is not, according to history it is elective. I do not, of course, mean to deny that you have now certain hereditary Empires—Empires, in comparison, of yesterday, because the German Emperor has been an Emperor only a few years, the Emperor of Austria only from the commencement of this century, and the Czar only from a period in the last. But the ancient Empire which gave its historic character to the title was elective from the first. I do not mean regularly elective, because force often stepped in; but originally the title of Imperator was a military title voluntarily conferred, and it was historically derived from that military title when it was borne by the Roman Emperors. Those Emperors, I may add, did not exercise their regular prerogatives of government in virtue of their being Emperors. They had quite enough of King-craft in them, or Emperor-craft, if yon like so to call it, to know on what they ought to base their authority, and consequently they availed themselves of the ancient titles of the Republic; and while assuming in the face of the world the title of Emperor, they also took the old constitutional title of Consul or other officer, in order that they might be legally entitled to exercise the functions of government. As Emperors they had no lawful powers. Powers they had, but they were not powers restrained by law. As to the Roman Emperorship, I need not enter into detail of the manner in which it was commonly disposed of and of the part exercised by the Prætorian Guards in the choice of the incoming candidate. The same may be said of the Emperors of Constantinople. In Germany the justice of the view which I have endeavoured to lay before the House was still more strongly illustrated. The Emperor of Germany is a gigantic figure in the retrospect of history, and I was astonished, I confess, when I heard the right hon. Gentleman say that the Emperor of Germany had no precedence over the Kings contemporary with himself. I do not know whether he retained it down to the very latest period of the existence of the title; but undoubtedly in the period of Charles V., and in all
  1744
  antecedent ages, if not in some of those that followed, until the Empire of Germany became so tremendously weakened with the religious wars following the Reformation, the precedence of the Emperor of Germany over the Sovereigns of Europe was undoubted. This is not a place or time for literary controversy; but it is clear that the Emperorship of Germany, which is the great and cardinal example of modern Emperorship for Christian Europe, was strictly an elective institution. Moreover, being an elective institution, it was an institution—and that is the second point of distinction between the two great titles—altogether exempt from the control of law. These are juridical questions, raised as to the rights of the Emperor with respect to the Pope, which lie entirely outside of this discussion; but speaking of the Empire of Germany, what legislative powers did the Emperor, after he had been elected, possess? None, What he possessed he possessed by the strong hand, and that is the character of the German Emperor. I am not saying that the powers were ill-used, or that he was not, on the whole, probably a very beneficial person for the Europe of those days; but what I am saying is that the title of Emperor is one which in the course of history has been almost uniformly dissociated from hereditary succession, and associated with elective succession, and, on the other hand, dissociated from the regular control of law, and associated with the undefined exercise of will, and very often with the simplest way of enforcing it. I confess these are very serious considerations, and if the right hon. Gentleman wishes to have anything like an unanimous or general assent of the British Parliament to the proposal he makes, he must give us further information and other reasons besides those which he has heretofore laid before us in order to bring about any such result. The right hon. Gentleman will therefore, I hope, be disposed to accede to the wish of my hon. Friend. I am perfectly certain that if this were an ordinary Bill my hon. Friend would be justified in pressing his demand by the usual means which are in the hands of Members—namely, by challenging the judgment of the House, and if he does not press it, it will not be because he has not occasion for pressing it, but be

  1745
  cause he is unwilling to take issue with the right hon. Gentleman in the form of a division, at any rate until the necessity becomes absolute. There is one other point on which I am anxious to make a few comments. I was, I own, struck by what fell from my right hon. Friend the Member for the University of London (Mr. Lowe) the other evening in reference to the colonies. Whether it be desirable to make any recital with regard to the colonies or not, it is a subject which requires much consideration whether we can wisely introduce reference to India in the title of the Sovereign, while we at the same time take no notice of the colonies. The right hon. Gentleman, the Prime Minister, assured us on the first evening of the discussion that such a proceeding would be wholly superfluous, inasmuch as the Colonies were included in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. I should gladly accede to his proposition if I were aware of any sufficient ground—I might almost say of any ground—which can be alleged for a statement so novel and so paradoxical. The legal inclusion for certain purposes, not in the title of the Sovereign, but in the scope of Acts of Parliament, and up to certain limits, is a thing perfectly well known; but as to the inclusion of the colonies in the title of the Sovereign and in the name of the United Kingdom, as far as the title of the Sovereign is concerned, I really am not aware of it, and I have yet to learn what authority can be quoted in support of such a proposition. I think it is a very serious matter indeed if, when we have had no opportunity of consulting the colonies or of ascertaining their feelings on such a subject, we were to become parties to an Act which, by its very frame work, excludes the colonies. If the right hon. Gentleman had addressed to us—at least to me individually as a Member of Parliament, along with others—the request that we should give to the Government a discretion to advise the Crown upon the enumeration of countries in the title of the Sovereign, I, for one, should have been disposed, though not seeing any great cause for such request, to acquiesce in it; but the right hen. Gentleman, unfortunately, does not do that. He recquires us to give him a discretion to make an addition in respect to India, but he excludes from the power which he asks of us any
  1746
  means of making an addition in respect to the colonies; and I do not hesitate to say that I, for one, am not prepared to be a party to the exclusion of the colonies from the scope of this Bill. I am willing to leave it to the Government to consider that matter; but my impression is that if anything is to be done, the colonies ought to be noticed, and consequently I am not willing to be a party to their exclusion. Sir, I conclude with expressing a hope that the right hon. Gentleman will give some further consideration to this question. I must say I think that when his opening speech on the former night was heard by the House it was felt that the examination and scrutiny of the matter had hardly been carried up to the point which its gravity and its delicacy required. My disposition is, if it were possible, not to go to issue with the Government on a measure of this kind; but I own that I must hoar from the Government, or those who may support this measure, arguments of a different character and a different gravity from those which hitherto have been adduced, or at some stage or other I fear it will be my duty, reluctant as I may be to enter upon its performance, in some manner or other to mark no inconsiderable degree of dissent from the framework of the measure as it stands.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: There is much of the speech of my right hon. Friend—I mean the antiquarian and historical portions of it—which I think the House will not desire me at present to follow; but there are one or two points in regard to which it is desirable that an answer should be given to his remarks. There was one portion of my right hon. Friend's eloquent speech in which he touched a chord which must have found a response in the heart of every Member of this Assembly when he spoke of the love and veneration attaching to the old and beloved title of our English Queen. But we have no question before us as to the maintenance of that old and truly British title. There is no question of losing that which is entwined in the hearts of all Englishmen. It is a question of a totally different character that we have before us to night. Will hon. Members look for a moment at the position in which we stand? My right hon. Friend said he regarded the measure with some misgiving and mistrust,

  1747
  and the hon Member for Banbury (Mr. Samuelson) in plainer language said he could not deny that he viewed it with something like prejudice. But, in point of fact, are we now doing anything very extraordinary? Are we proposing anything very much out of the usual course of English history, or are we not rather following the precedents set in former cases when there have been changes in the Constitution and limits of the Empire? My right hon. Friend says—"Let us look to precedents." Well, there have been several changes in the style of the Sovereign of this country. In the first place, there is the style given to the Sovereigns who ruled over the three portions of the now United Kingdom, and when we had our King of England, of Scotland, and of Ireland. When the union was effected between England and Scotland you changed the designation, not because there had been any difference in the acquisition of power by the King, but because you were bringing together two portions of the Empire, and placing them in different relations one towards the other, and you substituted for "England and Scotland" the term "Great Britain." In a similar way, when the union was effected between Great Britain and Ireland, you dropped the separate titles and adopted the title of "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland." My right hon. Friend opposite, when he was speaking as to whether this was done by statute or prerogative, charged my right hon. Friend at the head of the Government with taking a fallacious view with regard to prerogative. Now, I would ask him by what power it was done on the occasion of the change to which I have referred at the time of the union with Ireland, when the title of "King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" was assumed? By what authority was it that the title of "King of France" was at the same time abandoned? Was that by statute or by prerogative? It was by prerogative. It was in consequence of the power given to His Majesty to exercise his prerogative that that change was made. Similarly in consequence of the power now given to exercise the prerogative, Her Majesty will exercise it in order if this Bill is passed to effect the change which is about to be made. What are the circumstances of this change? Up to the
  1748
  year 1858 the territories which are now governed by Her Majesty in India were held and governed in trust for Her Majesty by the East India Company. On the occasion of the abolition of the power of the East India Company an Act of Parliament was passed which said that those dominions should henceforth be governed in the name of Her Majesty herself, and not by any one in trust for her. It would have been perfectly reasonable if at that time some step had been taken such as was taken at the time of the Union with Scotland and the Union with Ireland. Similarly it would have been perfectly natural and right, and no one would have questioned it at that time if it had been thought expedient to give a title distinctly to mark Her Majesty as Ruler of India. Indeed, I believe there are right hon. Gentlemen sitting on that Bench who at the time talked of that course being taken; but for good political reasons connected with the circumstances of the Mutiny that stop was not then taken. Well, it not having been taken then there has never been any occasion on which it would have seemed desirable or fitting to remedy the defect until the present year. It can now be done in a graceful manner without any hints as to sinister designs or any intentions of changing the relations between this country and the people and Princes of India. It has become a reasonable thing for us to ask that Her Majesty should be empowered to take the title which would have been given to her in 1858 but for circumstances which have now ceased to exist. My right hon. Friend said—"Let us be well assured that no change is intended in the political status of the Princes of India." But does my right hon. Friend really think it necessary seriously to put such a question as that? If he can allow such a suspicion to enter his head he had better give up his words of distrust, adopt the more candid language of the hon. Member for Banbury, and speak of prejudice. There may be something which reveals itself to my right hon. Friend, but which does not reveal itself to ordinary minds; but, for my part, I am wholly unable to see how the addition to Her Majesty's style and titles of a title which is to mark her as being specially connected with India can in any way whatever affect the political status of Indian Princes. The

  1749
  Proclamation which Her Most Gracious Majesty was pleased to issue when she assumed the direct Government of India is still in force, and by that Proclamation and by the law of the land will the Government of India continue to be governed. But my right hon. Friend says—"After all, what is it that we have to look to? You are talking to us of the wishes of the people of India." Well, it is from an Indian point of view that the question ought to be regarded; and if hon. Members would only bring themselves to regard it, as they ought to do, from that point of view, we should hear much less of these feelings of misgiving and mistrust, and statements about the character of the Emperor of this country and of another, all the examples being drawn from European history. We are told that there is no wish expressed on the part of the people of India for this new title. The people of India have expressed themselves on this subject. The hon. Gentleman (Sir George Campbell), who knows India well, spoke in a different tone from the right hon. Gentleman opposite as to the opinions of the people of India.
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: I spoke of the Princes and some of the people of India.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I admit that we have not attempted a plebiscite in India to collect the opinions of the people there; but we are not without some evidence of their feeling. In the first place, the title of Empress has been used. On August 18, 1873, Lord Northbrook, in writing to the Ameer of Yarkand, described the Queen in this manner—"Mr. Forsyth," the Envoy sent on this occasion, "is also the bearer of a Poyal letter from Her Majesty the Queen of India and the Empress of Hindostan."
  MR. SAMUELSON: Will the right hon. Gentleman have the kindness to inform the House whether Yarkand is in British India?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: No; but Lord Northbrook was the Viceroy of the Queen, and it was in India and from India that he sent a letter bearing this title. I have not searched all the Indian journals, but here is an extract from The Friend of India, dated December 12, 1873, referring to a fete given by the Talookdars of Oude, which, for the satisfaction of
  1750
  the hon. Member for Banbury, is, I may state, in India. At this fete the Talookdars presented to the Governor General a loyal address, which thus concluded—
  "We would entreat your Excellency to assure Her Majesty, Empress of Hindostan, of our eternal gratitude and constant loyalty.
  … In conclusion, we earnestly beg your Excellency to convey to our beloved Sovereign our long-wished-for and fervent prayer that Her Majesty, in addition to her numerous high titles, be graciously pleased to be called in accordance with the immemorable usage of our country."—
  and I will not venture upon the Hindostanee word, but I am told that it is equivalent to "Empress." ["Name."] Well, it is true that I held for a short time the Seals of the India Office, but I did not during that time learn the language of India. The word is "Sháhán-sháh-i-Hind Zil-i-Subháni." I am told this word corresponds in the minds of the Natives of India with the word "Empress." To me, however, it docs not signify whether the words exactly correspond or not. The fact remains that there was, and is, a desire on the part of many of the Natives and Princes of India that Her Majesty should take a title distinctly denoting that she holds a certain sway in India. We are told, and truly told, that in Europe there is no difference between the ranks of Queen and Empress; but although it is true that in Europe it could make no difference whether one title or the other was used, except that there is, perhaps, a prejudice against the title of Empress, may it not be equally true that among Eastern nations there is a great deal of difference between the two titles, with a prejudice the other way in favour of Empress? Let the House remember that among Oriental people an enormous value is attached to very slight distinctions. What to us may appear exceedingly trumpery and trivial distinctions, are in their eyes of the greatest importance. It is of the highest consequence, therefore, that we should take care that Her Majesty should in no "way suffer in India by the assumption of any title or the use of any language signifying that she holds a less exalted position than any other Sovereign. We have still sitting on the opposite Bench right hon. Gentlemen who were Colleagues of the late Lord Palmerston. Lord Palmerston was very jealous on this subject. About a year or two after Her Majesty came to the

  1751
  Throne, Lord Palmerston had a serious conversation with the Persian Envoy of that day, complaining that the title given to Her Majesty by the Persian Government was an inferior title. The Persian Envoy at the time was Hossein Khan, and the title given to the Queen was Malikeh; whereas Lord Palmerston contended that Her Majesty should be called by the Imperial title of Pádsháh. In the end, Lord Palmerston compelled the Persian Envoy to admit that the Queen was entitled to the higher and more important title. Now, Persia is not in India, and Yarkand is not in India, and the same may be said of many other countries in Central Asia; but the people of all those countries are continually brought into close relations with the Natives of India, and throughout all those countries there is one Power in particular which exercises a great and deserved influence. Is it well that to the Emperor of Russia should be given in those countries a title which appears to the people there to be higher and greater than the title borne by the Queen? The announcement has been made that it is Her Majesty's wish to mark the visit of the Prince of Wales to India by taking some title which should seem to connect that country more closely with our own; and after this first step has been taken, will anybody be satisfied that she should adopt a title which may appear in the eyes of the people of India to be lower than the title of the Emperor of Russia? It is all very well to say that in this country and in this House the title of Queen is as high as the title of Empress. We know it to be so, and to ourselves the title of Queen is so dear that we should not like to see Her Majesty barter it for any other. But in India the case is different. Whatever you may think of the propriety of marking this epoch by completing that which was the original intention in 1858, consider in what position you will be if, after making the proposal, you either go back or appear to hesitate. We have made the proposal, and for our part we do not hesitate on the ground directly stated by the right hon. Member (Mr. Lowe), that we may have to surrender this title if we lose India; and again put forward or rather hinted at by my right hon. Friend just now, when he said that this is a step which we may one
  1752
  day have to regret: but let us show tonight that we have no fear that we shall lose our Indian Empire, or ever be compelled to retrace the step we are now adopting.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he did not concur with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the power given by the Act of Union to George III. to take any title he thought fit was to be exercised as a matter of prerogative. On the contrary, he regarded it as the use of a power given by a statute. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had entirely misunderstood the argument of his right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich. His right hon. Friend did not suppose that the Government intended to make any change in the position of the Princes of India; but he pointed out that, without intending it, such a change might be made. Of course, if there was any ground for that fear it would be possible to remove it in the later stages of the Bill. The really important question before the House was whether Her Majesty should have the title of Queen or Empress; and, in his opinion, it was a question which at present they were hardly in a position to discuss. They had an important Bill before them, and it was only now, upon the second reading, that they were told what the object of the Bill was. He thought that, under such circumstances, they were scarcely in a condition to consider the arguments either for or against the proposed addition of the title of Empress. His hon. Friend (Mr. Samuel-son) therefore would be perfectly justified in persisting in his Amendment; but, at the same time, it was a matter of some importance that they should come to a unanimous conclusion. He had listened with great attention to the speech of the Prime Minister; but he did not hear him advance any argument to justify the proposed title. He said that it was the same as Queen, yet it would affect the imaginations of our Indian fellow-subjects. His object in rising now, however, was simply to say that he thought the right hon. Gentleman had not only misunderstood his (Mr. Forster's) remarks about the colonies, but, what was of much greater importance, he misunderstood the feelings that would be excited in the colonies. He regretted exceedingly that when the very important step was taken

  1753
  of proposing an addition which was tantamount to a change in the titles of our Sovereign—no change having been made since the beginning of the present century, and only two or three changes in the whole course of the existence of our Monarchy—the question of including our great colonies had not been more thoroughly considered. He thought the difficulty was very much increased by the fact that when the Queen was proclaimed throughout India—perhaps not legally, but certainly officially—a new title was assumed, and the Queen was known to be proclaimed as Queen of the United Kingdom and its colonies and dependencies; and now, when an official change of title was about to be made, the colonies were passed over and entirely ignored. He was sure the right hon. Gentleman had no intention of slighting the colonies, and he thought the observations which he had made on that subject would be received with satisfaction by our colonial brethren; but he could not say as much for the right hon. Gentleman's argument. He said the colonies were part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, but every one knew that they were not. For instance, no Government could contemplate parting with a portion of the United Kingdom, as with Gambia. The right hon. Gentleman made use of a further argument—namely, that people went to the colonies to make their fortunes and came back to spend them in England, and that the colonists constituted a fluctuating population. He (Mr. Forster) objected to that view being taken of our colonists. The colonists did not regard themselves as a fluctuating population, but as the founders of mighty communities; they were conscious that they were already great communities, and the people of England were equally conscious that they were so. It was therefore much to be regretted that when a change of title was about to be made the colonies did not receive that recognition which they deserved by being included in the new title.
  MR. ANDERSONsaid, that as he rose only to support the Motion for adjournment, he did not think it necessary to speak on the main question, for he took it that the adjournment would be conceded by the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government. The
  1754
  right hon. Gentleman must be aware from the grim silence with which his announcement had been received on that (the Opposition) side of the House that they were deeply disappointed with the title which he intended to recommend to Her Majesty. The country also, he believed, would be deeply disappointed; and as soon as they knew that Empress was the title to be adopted they would speak out very loudly about it. They in that House knew it that night for the first time; and he thought they would be false to their trust if they did not give the people an opportunity of considering the subject before the Bill was adopted. It had been urged that the title of Empress would gratify the feelings of the people of India; but, in his opinion, the feelings of the people of this country were of very much more importance than the feelings of the people of India or even than those of the colonies, though these were of some account too, and were now being ignored. They should not, therefore, decide this question until they knew what were the feelings of the people regarding it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that Lord Northbrook had already used the title of Empress in reference to the Queen's Sovereignty in India. But who had given the noble Lord authority to do such a tiling? They were not going to justify him in what he had done, and confirm it because he, on some occasion without authority, had given the Queen a new title. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had alluded to the awkward position in which they would be placed if the House now hesitated to go on with the Bill after the Government had announced their intentions; but that was not the fault of the Opposition, and if anything wrong had been done, let it be laid on the shoulders of those alone who were responsible for it. He ventured to predict that the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government would live to regret the day he touched this question at all.
  MR. SMOLLETTsaid, he had lived in India for 30 years, and he was in a position to declare that the assumption of a titular dignity in India by Her Majesty, where her Sovereignty was already known, acknowledged, and felt, would give to the Natives of that country the greatest possible satisfaction. When this Bill was introduced on the 17th of February the discussion that ensued was

  1755
  most unsatisfactory. He came down prepared to hear the Prime Minister introduce the Bill, and he thought the opportunity would be immediately taken by the noble Lord who led the Opposition to second the Motion cordially, and that the discussion would immediately terminate. But nothing of the sort occurred. The noble Lord was in his place, and apparently quite in his usual form. But he remained doggedly silent. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of London (Mr. Lowe) jumped upon his legs as soon as the Prime Minister had sat down, and made a speech of the greatest bitterness against the Bill. That speech was altogether unworthy of the reputation of the right hon. Gentleman as a statesman, and, he believed, created considerable amazement in the rank and file of the Opposition. The action of Gentlemen on the front Opposition bench on that occasion seemed to betoken divided counsels, and that the Leadership of the Liberal Party, on that night at least, was in commission. Assuming that Her Majesty would take the title of Empress, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of London condemned it on the ground that it would imply the exercise of political personal power by Her Majesty in India, and he quoted Blackstone in corroboration of his argument. But the people of India knew nothing of Blackstone, and cared less. What they did know was that the Representative of Her Majesty in India had exercised political personal sway of the most absolute kind, especially with regard to the Princes of that country. The Natives of India knew that the Viceroy acted under the instructions of a Secretary of State who was responsible to Parliament; therefore, whether Her Majesty assumed the title of Queen or Empress was merely a matter of sentiment, the style was not one which would make the slightest difference in her government of India. Then, according to the right hon. Gentleman, the title of Queen of India would be equally objectionable, because the colonists of Australia and Tasmania would be displeased. He (Mr. Smollett) knew nothing of them; he had heard they were rather a rough lot, but they could not be so stubborn or pig-headed as the right hon. Gentleman would lead us to assume. There was no similarity
  1756
  between India and the colonies. India was not a colony; it was a subject Empire, with 200,000,000 of people, its revenue was £50,000,000, its trade, import and export, amounted to £130,000,000 sterling annually, and £300,000,000 or £400,000,000 of British capital were sunk in that country. It was therefore worth 100 such places as Tasmania. He had stated in rising that any titular designation assumed by Her Majesty in India would be agreeable to the people, and he might add that it would be most acceptable to the Princes in Asia. He would tell the reason why. During the 30 years that he (Mr. Smollett) resided in India every Ruler in a Native principality lived in a state of sullen discontent and filled with gloomy forebodings of ruin. They looked upon themselves as a doomed race. Every Governor General who went out to India wont with the craze of annexation upon him, and that craze was contagious. Some of them declared that that annexation policy was our irresistible destiny; but that was a "sham." Lord Dal-housie, the greatest Viceroy under the dynasty of the East India Company, had no dissimulation in him, and he laid it down that the whole of India ought to be brought under British rule, and that no opportunity should be neglected for dethroning a Native Prince and bringing his dominions under our sway. Being a Great Mogul, he found opportunities as thick as blackberries; and one of his last and most discreditable assumptions of power was the seizure of Oude. He justified his annexation of Oude on the ground that the people would be delighted to come under British rule. Lord Dalhousie said he would not require the services of another regiment to defend the annexation, and yet within 18 months of that time the Bengal Sepoys rose in rebellion, and the people of Oude joined the mutineers to a man. The Mutiny was quenched in blood, and when order was restored the Government of India was transferred from the Company to the Crown. The Proclamation then issued by Her Majesty made the name of Queen Victoria the most popular name in Asia, because it repudiated the doctrine of annexation; and from that day the Princes of India had enjoyed what he called a new lease of life. The auspicious visit of the Prince of Wales would serve greatly to stimulate the loy

  1757
  alty of the Native Princes. The people would look on the proposed addition to Her Majesty's title as a proof that she was proud of her Eastern dominions, and the Princes would regard the act as a renewed pledge of her protection to them for the future. The House must jealously watch the action of Secretaries of State and of future Viceroys, for they were not to be trusted; and it must also take care that every promise made in that Proclamation to Prince or people was fulfilled to the letter, for the Proclamation, though received with favour by the people, was cursed in their hearts by the ruling class in India. The civil and military servants of the Crown in India had always advocated the spoliation of Native rulers.
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: The House is evidently anxious that the debate should be brought to a close, and I have no intention of prolonging it, partly for this reason—that there appears to be no debate to be continued. The speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich can scarcely be said to have received an answer from the other side of the House; and I trust that the subject which he has proposed for the consideration of Her Majesty's Government will receive that consideration, at any rate before we reach the next stage of this Bill. I certainly do not intend to follow the observations of the hon. Member for Cambridge (Mr. Smollett), except to remark that he began by taunting me for not having risen on the night when this Bill was introduced, and immediately seconding the Motion of the First Lord of the Treasury. Now, considering that I not only was not then aware what use was to be made of the powers which were proposed to be conferred on Her Majesty, but also that I had not at that moment, any more than the hon. Member, been favoured with a sight of the Bill that was to be brought in, it would, I think, have been rather premature for me to have offered myself as the Seconder of the measure. I now merely rise to call the attention of the House to one feature which I think may have been observed in the speeches that have been delivered to-night. The right hon. Gentleman opposite began by imploring the House, if possible, to arrive at a unanimous conclusion. My right hon. Friends who have spoken on this side also urged on the House the ex
  1758
  treme undesirability, if it can be avoided, of dissension in such a matter as this, and they have all indicated that if there must—as I fear there must—be a division of opinion among us before the Bill leaves this House—at all events, that division should be postponed till the latest possible period. I cannot say I think the Motion of my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Samuelson) was unreasonable. It is hardly reasonable that a Bill should at once be read the second time, the purport and object of which was only communicated to the House this evening. But it appears to me that in assenting to the second reading the House will do no more than give its assent to one of the principles recited in the Preamble of the Bill—namely, that it is expedient that there should be a recognition of the transfer of government so made by means of an addition to be made to the style and titles of Her Majesty. The objections taken by the hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Anderson), and I believe by many other hon. Members on this side of the House, to the title which Her Majesty is to be advised to assume can certainly be discussed with equal advantage at a later stage of the proceedings. Therefore, I trust that my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury may think fit, with the permission of the House, to withdraw the Motion that he has made; and I hope, on the other side, that the Government will be willing to meet him in a conciliatory spirit by postponing the Committee on the Bill a sufficient time to enable Members of this House to consider the announcement which has been made to them to-night, and also for the consideration of the subject by the country. For although we are told we are legislating primarily in the interests of the people of India, we cannot forget that what we are doing may, to a great extent, affect this country and our colonies also. I hope therefore, the Government will consent to postpone the Committee on the Bill to a reasonable period.
  DR. KENEALYsaid, it appeared to him that the speeches of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of London and of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Greenwich (Mr. Gladstone) were unanswerable, and remained entirely untouched by anything that had been advanced on the part of the Government. He had hoped

  1759
  that the Government would have been able to produce documentary proof of the necessity for this Bill; but instead of that the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government had contented himself with sneering at the idea that the title of Emperor or of Empress was associated with military power, and he had to go back some 16 or 17 centuries, to the time of the Antonines, to refute it. The fact itself, however, tended strongly to confirm the assertion. The dedication of the Faery Queen, by Spenser, was not an argument, and ought not to have been seriously treated as such. He did not think the right hon. Gentleman was serious in employing it. He (Dr. Kenealy) objected to the title of Empress because it was a despotic one, and one not fitted for a constitutional Sovereign to adopt. Upon high political grounds he asked the right hon. Gentleman to defer this question until the country, with the information it now possessed, had pronounced upon it. The Imperial title had evil associations in India, and should we ever lose our hold on that vast country, where the light of education was beginning to spread, and whore the spirit of freedom might soon awaken, how ignominious it would be for the Sovereign of this country to have to abandon the title which it was now proposed to assume!
  MR. SAMUELSONexplained in reference to the imputation to himself of prejudice on the subject of the Bill, which had been made against him on the part of the Government, that he had given his reasons for objecting to the title of Empress; but he said that if prejudice did exist on the subject, nothing that had been said in reference to it by the Government had tended to remove that prejudice. He only wished to add that he was perfectly willing to withdraw the Amendment if the House thought it better that the further consideration of the question should take place on going into Committee. ["No."]
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes 31; Noes 284: Majority 253.
  MR. PEASEsaid, he should be glad to know when the right hon. Gentleman proposed to go into Committee on the Bill. There had been very little time hitherto to consider it, and as the ques
  1760
  tion was a new one opportunity ought to be given to them to consider it thoroughly.
  MR. DISRAELI: There is only one clause in the Bill, and, therefore, I propose to take it this day week.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read a second time, and committed for Thursday next.

SUPPLY.
Order for Committee read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

ARMY—KNIGHTSBRIDGE BARRACKS.

  RESOLUTION.
  MR. J. R. YORKErose to move—
  "That this House ought not to be asked to vote the first instalment of £100,000 for the proposed reconstruction of Knightsbridge Barracks without the plans prepared by Mr. Wyatt being first produced and sufficient time being-allowed for their consideration by Members."
  The hon. Member observed, that it might be that Mr. Wyatt, the architect, would be able to carry out the improvements of which his right hon. Friend the Secretary for "War had spoken on Friday last; but he failed to see how hen. Members could fairly be expected to vote the money for a purpose which was so unlikely to be attained until they had seen the plans of the architect. It was true that yesterday certain plans had been presented, but they did not include an elevation; and, besides, the House had only 24 hours to consider even the small instalment which had been produced. The right hon. Gentleman wanted the House to pass a Vote which virtually prejudged the question, and asked them to do this on his assurance that the wonders he described would be brought about. When he raised this question last year he asserted that the barracks were in a very bad condition, having been assured that they would not last another year. The right hon. Gentleman, however, put him quietly and firmly aside, and said that many years hence we should see the barracks still standing securely on the same site, and that only some slight repairs were required. This year the right hon. Gentleman had been obliged to confess he was wrong. He must remind the right hon. Gentleman

  1761
  that if he failed in this matter the failure would be most conspicuous, and that every time he rode in the Park he would he exposed to the criticisms of his friends. He did not wonder at the right hon. Gentleman not being in a hurry to produce the plans, because it was not an agreeable thing to submit details involving artistic questions to a miscellaneous body of Gentlemen like the House of Commons. Earlier in the evening the right hon. Gentleman had replied to a Question about a plan of a model Cavalry barrack, designed many years ago by Mr. Wyatt. He understood it was in consequence of that plan that Mr. Wyatt had, in his right hon. Friend's opinion, attained a position which entitled him to be selected as the architect of the new barracks. He thought it desirable that hon. Gentlemen should have an opportunity of comparing the old with the new plans of Mr. Wyatt, in order that they might see how far the ideal differed from the actual, and how far that departure had become necessary owing to the restricted site on which the building must be erected.
  Amendment proposed,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "this House ought not to he asked to vote the first instalment of £100,000 for the proposed reconstruction of Knightsbridge Barracks without the plans prepared by Mr. Wyatt being first produced, and sufficient time being allowed for their consideration by Members,"—(Mr. Reginald Yorke,)
  —instead thereof.
  MR. NEVILLE-GRENVILLEsaid, he could not conceive why his hon. Friend, with the assistance of some elderly ladies and gentlemen at Knights-bridge, should have taken such an antipathy to the barracks, and should have got up an agitation against them, both as they were and as they would be. He had attended one of the hon. Gentleman's meetings, when he heard an elderly general officer, who never was quartered at the barracks, denouncing them, but no "model private" appeared on the platform, and he had heard another old officer taking an entirely different view. He might mention that his hon. Friend had seen the plans and had them explained to him by an eminent Engineer officer. If the barracks were to be rebuilt on the present site—
  1762
  and he saw no reason for their removal—the best use had been made of the land according to the plans. Mr. Wyatt had been selected not merely because of the model plan which had been referred to, but because he was also the architect of many ornamental buildings in London. If barracks were to be agitated against, they would have agitation for the removal of the Wellington and the Regent's Park Barracks. They must have barracks; and, considering the high character the soldiers received, he did not see why the inhabitants should wish for their removal. He had lately seen a letter in The Pall Mall Gazette, signed by the well-known name of "Henry Cole," suggesting that in place of the three acres on which the present barracks stood, three acres should be taken from the Park on the other side of the road; a suggestion which was highly worthy of attention.
  MR. MITCHELL HENRYsaid, it might be true that Knightsbridge was the proper site for Cavalry Barracks, but they were going to put 450 horses upon the ground-floor, and above them they were going to quarter a great number of men and women and children. Some years ago there had been a Commission of Inquiry into the proper mode of constructing barracks. The mortality which had occurred in our barracks in India and at home was not creditable to us, and was due to the construction of these barracks in violation of the principles of common sense. The Commission he referred to was, therefore, appointed, and condemned, on sanitary grounds, the placing of men over horses in barracks. It was said that shafts were to be constructed in order to carry off the foul air from the stables; but there would be windows in the stables, and if these opened, the foul air would rise into the quarters above, and what would be the use of the shafts? If the barracks were to be placed at Knightsbridge, a slice should be taken from the Park, the road diverted, and proper barracks constructed, not such as would be a disgrace to the sanitary science of the present day, and would embody every evil protested against by the Sanitary Commission.
  MR. GATHORNE HARDYsaid, the proposed barracks would be erected upon the best sanitary principles, combined with architectural fitness. Sir William Muir, the Director General of

  1763
  the Army Medical Department, had carefully inspected the plans and had been satisfied with them from a sanitary point of view. In the model barracks which had been proposed by Mr. Wyatt, comprising 22 acres, the horses were to be put underneath the men's quarters; and Shorncliffe and Colchester, which were our most recently-constructed Cavalry Barracks, were both built in the same way. At Colchester it was found that the men were, in some respects, more healthy over the horses than in separate rooms, and the sanitary results were much the same either way. In London, where the coachmen, with their wives and children, slept over the stables, he did not hear of any excessive illness or mortality among them. But the new barracks would not be treated in this way. The stables would project beyond the rooms above, a larger space would be given to the horses than was required by the Sanitary Commission, and so it would be with the rooms above, and the ventilation of the stables would be quite distinct from that of the rooms over. Thus overcrowding would be avoided and proper sanitary provision would be made. Unless these precautions were taken he should not sanction the construction of the barracks. A deputation had waited upon him today, and nothing could be more comical than their various suggestions and differences. In the first place, Millbank was abandoned by everybody. Then it was recommended that he should put the barracks where the Hanger's house was, and thus exhibit his architectural skill in the middle of the Park. But if people doubted his power to build anything worth having at Knightsbridge he was not prepared to run the risk on the site of the Ranger's house. Sir Henry Cole, a gentleman of enlarged ideas and great æsthetic taste, said—"Don't talk about estimates, but place your barracks where you have now the exercising ground." He did not think, however, that the best site for such a building would be where it would obstruct the view of the Albert Memorial; and, besides, it was a place which on Sunday was the most frequented part of the Park. Then as to Chelsea, if he built there he must build on concrete, which would add greatly to the expense, the boys would have to be removed to another building, and the pensioners of
  1764
  Chelsea Hospital would have to be sent to the country, which would also add greatly to the cost. Then Kensington was spoken of the other night; but if he set about building a barrack there, what reception would the owners of the palatial residences in that quarter be likely to give it? In short, the question came to this—he wanted to build; at Knightsbridge was a site ready, and, according to high engineering, architectural, and medical authorities, he could raise a building there which would be picturesque in appearance and would meet every sanitary and military requirement. When hon. Gentlemen talked of the health of the Horse Guards, they usually seized on the year 1873 to prove their case; but it was enough to say that the Horse Guards were not in Knightsbridge Barracks at all in that year. The proper thing to do, however, was not to take one year; and if a period of 10 years was taken, it would be found that the health of these troops was very much the same as that of the other Cavalry. But the fact was, the Horse Guards were bigger men than the rest of the Army, and bigger men it was alleged were more liable to consumptive diseases than smaller men. Allusion had been made to the part which an officer of high position had taken in this matter. He would not say that the officer in question had literally infringed the Queen's Regulations. But here was a colonel on full pay discussing questions under the consideration of Government in public, and suppose instead of one colonel 20 or 100 had gone to the meeting and expressed their opinion, where would the discipline of the Army be? With regard to the position of Mr. Wyatt, he wished to say a few words in explanation. Some years ago, when sanitary matters were beginning to be understood, there was a great competition for building barracks. The Inspector of Fortifications, however, reported that of all the plans sent in there was not one which could be adopted as a model, though some had merits in one way and some in another, and he recommended that no prize should be awarded, but in the end one was given to Mr. Morgan for Infantry Barracks and to Mr. Wyatt for Cavalry. Mr. Morgan had built infantry barracks, and since that time every Secretary of State had admitted

  1765
  that a pledge was given to Mr. Wyatt that when Cavalry Barracks were to be built he should have the contract. We were now, therefore, in this position—there was a site, he had laid before the House the plans which would fulfil every sanitary and other requirement, and he called upon them, therefore, to put him out of his misery and say what he was to do.
  SIR GEORGE BOWYERsaid, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not try to construct a picturesque barrack, but would erect a plain building, without ornament, in good proportion, and adapted to its purpose. The picturesque buildings which they had lately had were an example of what ought to be avoided.
  SIR ANDREW LUSKsaid, the public feeling was against the right hon. Gentleman in this case, and such feeling should not be ignored. The public did not want a barrack at Knightsbridge; but he must confess he sympathized with the right hon. Gentleman, because wherever he might take the barracks nobody wanted them and every one would protest.
  GENERAL SHUTEsaid, that whether the new barracks would be ornamental or not there was no doubt but that our magnificent Household Troops were highly ornamental, and ought not to be buried in the slums. He lived at Rutland Gate during the Session and could testify that their conduct was admirable on all occasions. He thought the neighbourhood of the barracks objectionable, but the licensing magistrates were chiefly to blame. Since the debate of last Session in the other House he had made a point when passing and repassing of occasionally looking into the public-houses there, and he had not seen a Life Guardsman or a man of the Blues in one of them. Questionable characters of the other sex were there in large numbers, but he never saw any of the Household Cavalry speaking to one of those women. He saw a number of horsey-looking, slangy fellows in tight trousers, and felt puzzled to know how they got into them or how out of them. He believed that Tatter-sail's was, next to the magistrates, most responsible for what they saw at Knights-bridge. It was not for him to say where the barracks should be built; but if ever the Household Cavalry should be wanted to act in support of the civil authority, it
  1766
  was not desirable that they should have to march through streets to gain the place of assembly.
  MR. MUNTZbelieved that the only public opinion which was against the proposed site was that of gentlemen living in the immediate vicinity. The reason given by the hon. Baronet (Sir Andrew Lusk) was, to his mind, conclusive that the barracks should remain on or as near as possible to their present site. The hon. Member was an economist. What would he say to a demand for perhaps £100,000 for a new site, when improved barracks could be erected, as proposed, without the cost of purchasing a new site? The Mover of the Resolution suggested that they should place the barracks near the powder magazine. If they did that and a flash of lightning fell on the powder magazine, they would have the whole of Her Majesty's Life Guardsmen blown up.
  MR. O'SHAUGHNESSYsaid, it was conceded that in a strategical point of view Knightsbridge was the best site they could have for those barracks, and also that if they were erected anywhere else the inhabitants would raise the same objections as were heard at present. If any one class more than another ought to set the example of placing the soldier on an equality with themselves and showing that they thought him fit to live with the rest of the community, it was men of high social position as Members of that House.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  The House divided:—Ayes 195; Noes 46: Majority 149.

ARMY—ACCOMMODATION IN BAR-RACKS.—OBSERVATIONS.
MR. A. M'ARTHURcalled attention to the overcrowding in many barracks throughout the country, and contended that the Secretary of State for War would not succeed in getting steady and respectable men for recruits, if, in addition to increasing the soldiers' pay, he did not provide them with proper accommodation in their barracks. There were, he must admit, difficulties in the way of carrying out improvements in this respect at some of the barracks, where the space was limited, but that was not the case at

1767
Aldershot and other places, where the room was abundant. He thought that from £200,000 to £300,000 might be well spent in increasing the comfort of soldiers at those places, instead of devoting the money to increasing the Army, because he believed it would hold out an inducement to men to stay longer in the service than they did now. He hoped the Secretary of State would direct his attention to this important subject.
LORD EUSTACE CECILsaid, the Secretary for War had had this subject under his consideration for some time, and it was one in which his right hon. Friend toot a great interest. As the hon. Member had admitted, there were difficulties to contend with—such as the peculiar construction of casemates and the difficulty of ventilation—and very little could be done under the circumstances; but what little could be done would be done by his right hon. Friend.

ARMY—MILITIA ADJUTANTS.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  VISCOUNT EMLYN, in calling attention to the pay and allowances of Adjutants of Militia, said, he was sure that when the Warrant regulating the pay of those officers was issued the Secretary for War had every intention of dealing fairly with all the Adjutants of Militia; but he thought the right hon. gentleman was not aware how it would act as to some of them. The effect of the Warrant generally was this: It increased the pay of Infantry Militia Adjutants from 10 s. to 11 s. 7d. per day, or £28 a-year, and of Adjutants of Artillery from 10 s. to 11 s., which would be an increase of £18 a-year; but every officer receiving half-pay would be excluded from the allowances which were paid to Militia Adjutants as Paymasters and Quartermasters. So that, under the new Regulations these officers would receive considerably less than they did before; and, as he was sure the Secretary of State for War could not desire this, he hoped that some alteration would be made in that respect.
  SIR RICHARD GILPINalso expressed a hope that the condition of the officers would receive the attention of the Secretary for War.
  LORD CLAUD JOHN HAMILTONsaid, since some of these gallant Gentlemen had accepted their position of
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  Adjutant, the Secretary for War had thought fit, no doubt acting on advice, to issue a new Warrant with regard to the pay. What was the effect of the Warrant? Why, an able and deserving officer was liable to lose from £30 to £40 a-year. This the officers could not afford, and it was of the highest importance to the efficiency of the Militia that the grievance should be removed.
  SIR WILLIAM FRASERconsidered the defence of our coast a most important question. On our South Coast we had Plymouth, Portland, Portsmouth, and Dover, not only almost impregnable fortresses, but also vast entrenched camps, capable of holding so large a force that no enemy dared have them in his rear; but on the East and Northeast Coast there were no similar defences. In the beginning of this century towers copied from that at Martello, in South Italy, were erected on the South-east Coast. It was true the poet had sung—
  "Britannia needs no bulwarks,
  No towers along the steep;
  Her march is o'er the mountain wares,
  Her home is on the deep;"
  but his practical mind would be the first to perceive how necessary for security would be fortifications near the coast. In these days we had moveable fortresses, and it seemed to him (Sir William Fraser) most desirable that troops to the number of 30,000 men should be practised in embarking and disembarking; besides the regimental embarkation which was constantly going on.
  COLONEL NAGHTENbelieved the Militia to be one of the chief defences of the country, and thought the subject which had been brought before the House deserving of its most serious consideration, and that the grievances under which the Adjutants were labouring ought to be attended to. He complained that the duties of Paymaster and Quartermaster were thrown upon the Adjutants, and strongly recommended that they should be allowed horses, the use of which was one of the necessities of their position.
  MR. STANLEYhaving congratulated the noble Lord behind him on the able and temperate manner in which he had laid the grievances of which the Adjutants complained before the House, explained that the state of things which

  1769
  his right hon. Friend at the head of the War Department found prevailing when he came into office was so anomalous that he decided to anticipate the operation of the depot system, and to place all the Adjutants of Militia on the same footing as those of the Line. A great many complaints were, concurrently with that decision, made by the old Adjutants of Militia that they had new duties to perform. They were anxious to retire; but the allowance was so small, that it offered no inducement to them to retire. The Secretary of State took up the question, and having regard to the fact that a great number of officers were on compulsory half-pay, who were anxious to return to the Service—who were costing a great deal of money without doing anything for it, he proposed an arrangement by which an exceptional rate of retiring allowance should be given to the Militia Adjutants who chose to retire, filling up their places by officers who were on half-pay. But it was clearly stated, and so understood, that that was an exceptional and not the normal rate of allowance. Those officers who did not retire remained with their eyes open, knowing that they would be liable to the duties performed by other officers at the depôt. Then, as to the complaint that the allowances of the officers had been cut down, he need only point to the fact that their total emoluments formerly were £308 10 s. 9d. per year, whereas now they amounted to £329. One item of allowance—namely, £3 for recruiting—had certainly been cut down; but if the officer had to go considerable distances the £3 would not be gained. They were now placed on the Line footing, and received the actual expenses out of pocket. With respect to another matter which had been referred to, he might say that steps would be taken not to put the new scale into operation until the day the Circular was received. He had to inform his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bedfordshire (Sir Richard Gilpin), that the system of appointing the officers referred to supernumerary Majors of their regiments had been attended with great benefit to the public service, the old Adjutants remaining and being of special service to the young officers. With regard to the drawback of pay, it was true that in the older Militia Acts there was a reservation in favour of half-pay; it was made
  1770
  under totally different circumstances from those which now existed. It had been said that a difficulty was experienced in certain cases in finding officers willing to come forward for a limited time. All he could say was, that so far from there being any want of officers, there had been, with only two exceptions, not only a sufficient, but a very large number of officers from the active battalions willing to serve with the Militia. Complaint had been made that Paymasters' and Quartermasters' duty had been thrown upon the officers, and it was true that such was the case during the intermediate arrangements consequent upon the formation of the brigade depôts. He hoped that in a short time that would cease to be so; but if it did not, his right hon. Friend the Secretary for War would make some allowance for what was certainly a very arduous duty. With regard to the suggestion that the troops should be practised in embarkation and disembarkation, he could state that the present practice was fully equivalent to that of the troops of any foreign country. It should be remembered that from the nature of things the Army of this country had a greater opportunity of learning how to shift for itself under various circumstances of embarking and disembarking than any other Army had. As to directing such practice to take place on particular points of the coast, he must speak with great reserve; because, whatever might be the advantages of internal manœuvres, great discretion should be used in laying down the points of the coast which were considered most applicable to such operations.
  EARL PERCYsaid, that without blaming the Secretary of State, inasmuch as he had simply carried out the policy his predecessor had inaugurated, he could not help thinking that faith had been broken with those old Adjutants who had entered the Militia on the understanding that they were appointed permanently, and who had, in consequence, given up their chance of promotion in the Regular service, and served Her Majesty thoroughly well in the Militia. The War Office had called upon them to do a large amount of additional duty, and to place themselves at the beck and call of several masters, and if they did not like to do so they were to receive a pension far below

  1771
  that which they were before receiving. This was rather hard upon officers who had done good service, both in the Regular Army and the Militia.
  MR. STANLEYsaid, he hoped he had made it clear that there had been many applications for retirement from these officers.

ARMY—PAY OF SOLDIERS AND MARINES.—OBSERVATIONS.
SIR HENRY HAVELOCKrose to move—
"That, while recognizing the necessity for increased expenditure on the Army, in consequence of the largely increased inducements of the labour market, this House is of opinion that it is inexpedient to provide for the Militia Service, without having before the House a detailed statement of the mode of application of the largely increased sum for deferred pay and increased pay, and of its total amount for the present and for future years; and that no mea-sure for increasing the efficiency of the Army is complete that does not include an improvement of the Militia Reserve and the diminution of the present competition between the Line and the Militia for the same class of men."
The hon. and gallant Gentleman said, he was not unfavourable to the principle of deferred pay.
MR. SPEAKERintimated that the hon. and gallant Member could not now move the Amendment, the House having voted that the words "That I now leave the Chair" stand part of the Question.
SIR HENRY HAVELOCKsaid, he would defer his remarks; but he wished to express an opinion that instead of voting so large an amount of deferred pay, it would have been wiser to proceed by tentative steps. The Army Estimates were increased this year by £600,000, and it appeared that this increased item for deferred pay would, in 21 years, amount to £500,000 a-year. He should have preferred a return to the system of bounties, objectionable as it was in some respects, until it was seen whether this largo increase of expenditure was necessary, although in principle he was favourable both to deferred pay and increased pay.
CAPTAIN NOLANdenied that the pay of the soldier had been increased. Formerly he was enlisted with the prospect of a pension, which was equivalent to 1s. 10 d. a week distributed over his weekly pay. The Secretary for War
1772
proposed to give rather less than 1s. 2d.—less because deferred—which was Sinless than we formerly gave. He denied that the 4d. given to the Reserve was any increase of pay, because it no more than fairly balanced the contingent liability to be called out for service.
MR. GOSCHENsaid, that with regard to the Marines a Question had already been asked by the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. Shaw Lefevre) as to I whether, in consequence of this addition to the soldiers' pay, a similar addition would be made to the pay of the Marines, when the First Lord of the Admiralty stated that nothing had been settled in regard to the subject. He thought he might assume that the Secretary for War had since then been in communication with the First Lord on the matter. With regard to India, he understood that an increase would also be given to the soldiers there, and he desired to have an accurate statement of the effect of that increase on the Indian finances. It would have been better if the information as to the effect on our own finances which had been furnished that morning had been supplied before the Vote was taken. If, instead of proposing deferred pay, the Secretary for War had proposed an immediate increase of 2d., the proposal would have excited more attention than it did now, when only £19,000 was added to the Estimates, although the increase of liability amounted to £320,000 a-year. He acquitted the right hon. Gentleman of any idea of lightening the present Estimates, because he proposed deferred pay on its own merits; but when a measure involved a large liability and an accruing charge, the fullest information ought to be furnished as to the effect upon the finances both of India and England from year to year.
GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOURcordially supported the Motion of his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Sunderland, and urged that the information which he asked for as regarded the application of the large additions to the pay of the non-commissioned officers and soldiers should be furnished, even though the Resolution could not be put. It was only right that time should be afforded for Members to study the details. Large increases had of late years been made to the pay of the soldier, particularly by General Peel and subse

1773
quently by Lord Cardwell, without any visible good, in inducing men to enlist. With regard to the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London, he also cordially deprecated unnecessary increase of the military expenditure of India, which, year after year, had occurred. It was desirable that the House should have the full details of the measures of the right hon. Gentleman placed before them, both with regard to the Army in India as well as at home. The additions made by General Peel to the pay of the Army at home had increased the military expenditure in India, as was reported, by one-third of a million, without the slightest good being effected. Since then the charges for bounty and kit on soldiers extending their service to India had been continued, adding thereby most uselessly to the military charges of India.
MR. GATHORNE HARDYsaid, he thought he had some reason for surprise at the course which had been taken on this subject. With regard to deferred pay, he had stated the sum total in the first instance. It was rather over than understated; and with respect to the proposition of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Mr. Goschon), that they should vote the whole sum as it arose, there never was any such financial proceeding. They might as well in the matter of buildings insist on taking at once the whole sum that would be spent in future years. The normal amount of expenditure would not arise for many years, and a great many things might occur to modify it. This was a very outside Estimate. The House had not been at all left in the dark. He had told them the whole sum that would be required; therefore, there could be no delusion with respect to it. There had been two nights' debate practically on the first Vote, and now the same discussion was revived. He made no complaint. He invited discussion at the first; he only wanted the House to understand that he had kept nothing back. With respect to India, when he came into office he found it difficult to arrive at any accurate conclusion as to the cost of different branches of the Army, and he admitted that this year he did not pretend to do more than give a rough estimate. There was no doubt, however, that India would have to pay a considerable sum in consequence of
1774
the deferred pay. The Reserve would not affect India. It was kept for our own purposes, and would therefore be paid by this country alone. As to the question of the pay of the Marines, this was hardly a proper question to address to the Secretary for War, who had no control whatever over the Marines. The great increase of pay which had been talked of would probably turn out a very moderate increase; but so essential did he deem this proposal to be, on the eve of the time when there must be a large increase in the number of recruits, that he should have found it necessary to make the proposal even if it had cost much more. The cost might be great, but the necessity was great. He had made the proposal in as moderate a form as possible, had made it as openly as possible, and did not think there was fair ground for the criticisms which had been made on this point.
MR. SHAW LEFEVREsaid, that the increased pay involved, almost inevitably, a similar step as regarded the Navy, and there ought to have been a statement from the responsible head of the Navy. He complained, too, that the Treasury, to whom the subject would be referred in the ordinary course of business, did not seem to have inquired what was proposed with regard to the Marines. The Navy Estimates contained no provision for increased pay to the Marines, though the invariable practice had been that the pay of this corps should be the same as the pay of the Army. As to India, though it was admitted that the charge would throw increased burdens upon that country, we had no information what the amount of those burdens would be. The statement placed on the Table should have shown the total increase, and then the charge to both countries. As it was, though the increase was only £19,000 for the year, the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman would ultimately entail upon the country and India a total burden of something like £600,000 or £700,000 a-year. Such an increased charge might be necessary or unnecessary, but it required more careful consideration than had hitherto been given to it.
Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.

SUPPLY—ARMY ESTIMATES.
SUPPLY—considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
(1.) £672,700, Militia Pay and Allowances.
COLONEL HAYTERcalled attention to the deficiency in the ranks of the Militia, mounting to 33,858 men, and urged that the only way to remedy it was to carry out the Brigade Depot system completely. The Vote had been growing of late years; this year it had been greatly increased, and no satisfactory accounts had been produced.
MR. GATHORNE HARDYexplained that the reason so many regiments were so far below their full strength was that the quota assigned to them was beyond their power of completing, and it would be best to fix the establishments according to the resources at their disposal. He intended to institute a searching inquiry into the condition of the Militia, and he hoped to be able to put it in a satisfactory condition.
MR. RITCHIEstated the Militia officers had to undergo a searching examination before they could obtain promotion. He called attention to the fact that sergeants of the Line who helped in the training of the Militia regiments received higher pay while engaged in that duty than their superior officers, the Militia sergeant majors.
LORD CLAUD JOHN HAMILTONexpressed an opinion that a great mistake had been made in substituting the system of enlistment for that of enrolment in the recruiting of the Militia. If the enlistment system were persisted in, the Militia force, especially in Ireland, would cease to exist.
GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOURsaid, he was glad there was to be such an inquiry into the condition of the Militia as the Secretary for War had indicated, that the nation might see how far they could rely on that Force. We heard the First Lord of the Admiralty speak of our Navy as a Paper Fleet, but the designation was far more applicable to our Militia. The test of the state of that Force was afforded by the figures in the annual training Return. Out of 3,859 Militia officers only 2,835 were present on the day of training; one-fourth of the sergeants and corporals were absent, and 10,069 privates were absent without leave,
1776
and only 84,316 privates out of a total of 123,668, forming the established strength, were present. If from these he deducted the Militia Reserve, available for the Regular Army, then we had only about 55,000 privates remaining in the Militia; the most serious evil was the rivalry for recruits between the Militia and Regular Forces. It was useless to assert that these two classes of soldiers were drawn from different parts of the population. All our experience in the early years of this century was at war with that assertion. The latest and best evidence was that of Sidney Herbert, who, in his speech of 17th February, 1860, distinctly asserted that the class of men who entered the Militia for permanent service were—
"In point of fact exactly the same as those who are embodied in the Army, so that you are establishing a competition against yourself."
But there was also another, and a more serious objection, and that was the positive want of men to meet the recruiting requirements of the Forces now maintained. Theoretically those Forces ought to be entirely replaced in six years, allowing for the various casualties, and consequently needing about 60,000 recruits annually. But judging from the numbers obtained by conscription and universal service in France and Germany, the population of the United Kingdom could not supply 130,000 youths in each year fit for military service, even if the conscription were inforce. And deducting from that number the classes of youths who at present refused to serve either in the Militia or Regular Army, as private soldiers, then the numbers available out of the classes who now supplied recruits, could not equal the number of 60,000 he had mentioned. In proof of that, there was seen to be no fewer than 26,069 privates of Militia actually wanting, so that they had nearly one year's supply deficient. All that proved how necessary it was to investigate the state of this Force, in order to decide as to whether its old constitution of a purely local Force was not more suitable.
Vote agreed to.
(2.) £74,400, Yeomanry Cavalry Pay and Allowances.
MR. STANLEYexplained that, in reality, there was no reduction made in the amount of the Vote. The whole question was under the consideration of

1777
his right hon. Friend, who would no doubt do justice to all parties.
Vote agreed to.
(3.) £458,000, Volunteer Corps Pay and Allowances.
MR. J. W. BARCLAYsaid, it was very satisfactory to find that so large a proportion of the Volunteers were in an efficient state. A very large proportion of the officers also was efficient. With respect to firing the Volunteers were very much superior to the Militia.
SIR WALTER BARTTELOTobserved, that there was a great deficiency of Volunteer officers, and urged that something should be done to increase their number.
MR. GATHORNE HARDYadmitted there was a deficiency of officers, but with regard to the Volunteers themselves there was an increase of over 7,000 this year. He could hold out no hope of increased payment except for increased efficiency.
Vote agreed to.
(4.) £132,000, Army Reserve Force.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONasked what steps were being taken to accelerate the formation of a First Class Army Reserve? He knew that the new system had hardly come into operation; but it would be satisfactory to know that the right hon. Gentleman had the subject under his consideration, and that he intended urging upon the commanding officers the duty of passing through the ranks men who would form a good reserve.
MR. GATHORNE HARDYreminded the Committee that the system inaugurated by his Predecessor would not come fully into operation until next year. Unless the recruiting enabled commanding officers to keep up the regiments to their establishment, the Government could not call upon the commanding officers to pass on their men into the Reserve before the time at which they could claim their discharge. It was calculated that in 1879 the total addition to the Reserve from the present date would be 20,437, a considerable force. He assured the noble Lord he would do his best to expedite the formation of the Reserve.
Vote agreed to.

CATTLE DISEASE (IRELAND) BILL.
(Sir Michael Hicks-Beach, Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland.)
CATTLE DISEASE (IRELAND) BILL.

  [BILL 94.] SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, its object was to extend to Ireland the powers of compulsory slaughter of cattle affected with pleuropneumonia and other diseases, as they were now and had been for some time exercised in England and Scotland.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Sir Michael Hicks-Beach.)
  CAPTAIN NOLANsaid, he hoped the Bill would not withdraw any help they had hitherto had from the Constabulary.
  MR. O'SHAUGHNESSYobjected that the Bill would throw a large amount of the compensation on towns in rural districts, while the districts themselves would escape without any contribution whatever. That was an anomaly which he should be glad to see removed.
  MR. J. W. BARCLAYsaid, he was very glad that the Government had now resolved to put the three countries on the same footing as regarded those diseases, and he hoped they would deal in the same way with the foot-and-mouth disease.
  MR. SULLIVANsaid, it was most objectionable that the administration of the Bill should be thrown upon the guardians of the poor.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill read a second time, and committed for To-morrow.

COUNTY PALATINE OF LANCASTER (CLERK OF THE PEACE) BILL.
(Mr. Hardcastle, Mr. Holt, Mr. Clifton.)
COUNTY PALATINE OF LANCASTER (CLERK OF THE PEACE) BILL.

  [BILL 53.] CONSIDERATION.
  Bill, as amended, considered.
  Clause 1 (Appointment of deputy clerks of the peace).
  Amendment proposed,
  In page 1, line 20, to insert after the word "standing," the words "and shall reside and have an office within the district for which he is appointed, and the clerk of the peace shall have no interest in the emolument of any deputy clerk."—(Mr. Rathbone.)
  MR. HARDCASTLEopposed the former part of the Amendment as un

  1779
  necessary, and the latter part as contrary to the object of the Act.
  MR. ASSHETON CROSS, as a county magistrate of many years standing, opposed the Amendment, but rose more particularly to say that the magistrates of Lancashire—Whig, Radical and Tory—were almost unanimous in favour of the Bill. It was not in any sense a party question.
  Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and negatived.
  Bill to be read the third time To-morrow.

BURGESSES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
(Mr. M'Laren, Mr. Anderson, Mr. Yeaman.)
BURGESSES (SCOTLAND) BILL.

  [BILL 48.] COMMITTEE.
  Bill considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  MR. W. HOLMSmoved to report Progress. He did so with regret, as he approved of the object of the Bill, but he had received a telegram that afternoon to the effect that the Bill would seriously affect the interests of the Burgh which he represented. He therefore asked for delay, for further consideration of the measure.
  MR. M'LARENsaid, he hoped the Motion would not be agreed to. He should be willing to agree to the insertion of any words which would protect the rights of any burgh, provided they were in accordance with the principle and object of the Bill.
  MR. J. W. BARCLAYtrusted the Bill would be allowed to proceed.
  DR. CAMERONsaid, the Bill might inflict a slight loss upon some burghs; but he did not think that ought to stand in the way of proceeding with the Bill.
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid, that the Bill, if passed in its present form, would involve a loss to Stirling equivalent to a rate of over 1d. in the pound. He therefore hoped it would not be pressed at present, in order that Amendments might be framed with a view to prevent harm being done. Although the Bill might be a very good one for Edinburgh, it did not follow that it would be equally good for all the other interests affected by the measure.
  MR. M'LARENsaid, there were only about 2 burghs out of 70 that were
  1780
  against the Bill, and the object of the Motion for delay was for the purpose of defeating the Bill in the interest of those burghs.
  Motion agreed to.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

  MUTINY BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. RAIKES, Bill for punishing Mutiny and Desertion, and for the bettor payment of the Army and their quarters, ordered to be brought in by Mr. RAIKES, Mr. Secretary HARDY, and The JUDGE ADVOCATE.
  Bill presented, and read the first time.
  House adjourned at half after One o'clock.