Commons Sitting of 11 July 1871

MINUTES.
WAYS AND MEANS—considered in Committee—Resolutions [July 10] reported—Exchequer Bonds (£700,000); Consolidated Fund (£10,000,000).
PUBLIC BILLS—Ordered—First Reading—Consolidated Fund (£10,000,000)*; Exchequer Bonds (£700,000)*.
First Reading—Tanered's Charities* [239].
Second Reading—Municipal Corporation Acts Amendment* [193].
Select Committee—Royal Parks and Gardens* [217], nominated.
Committee—Elections (Parliamentary and Municipal) (re-comm.) [103]—R.P.
The House met at Two of the clock.

ARMY—CAMPAIGN MANŒUVRES IN THE AUTUMN.—QUESTION.
SIR HARRY VERNEYasked the Secretary of State for War, to inform the House what are the intentions of the Government with regard to campaign manœuvres of the Army during the autumn; whether in each military district there is to be a separate Corps d'Armée consisting of limited numbers, but perfect in itself, combining each arm and department of the whole force of the Country, the Regular Army, the Militia, and the Volunteers, and capable of rapid expansion and increase in case

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of need; whether, if such Divisions of the Army are formed, means will be adopted to give to the men industrial occupation as well as military training, and to the officers professional instruction; and, whether there will be a General Officer commanding each Division, whose duty it will be to ascertain the capacity of the officers under his command, and so to aid the Commander in Chief in the duty of selection?
SIR HENRY STORKS: It is intended, Sir, that as soon as the harvest is over a force of about 30,000 men, of whom at least one-half will be Regulars, and the rest Militia, Yeomanry, and Volunteers, shall be assembled at Aldershot, and marched to Lockinge, in Berkshire, in which neighbourhood military manœuvres will be practised, the whole to occupy about a fortnight. It is intended that in each military district the Militia, the Yeomanry, and the Volunteers shall be trained as far as possible in combination with the Regular forces from time to time quartered in that district. The localization of the Regular forces will be carried as far as the circumstances and service of the British Army permit. It is intended to give the private soldier industrial occupation, and the officer professional instruction. There will be a General Officer commanding each Military Division, and it will be his duty to report upon the capacity of the officers under his command.

CHAIN CABLES AND ANCHORS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. GRIEVEasked the President of the Board of Trade, What agreement, if any, has been come to between the Board of Trade and Lloyd's Committee on the subject of Chain Cables and Anchors; and whether he will produce the Correspondence which has passed on the subject?
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEsaid, in reply, that one of the main objects of the Bill before the House was to take care that, if the system of public testing of chain cables and anchors were prolonged by the renewal of the Act expiring next June, this testing should be in reality a public testing, and should be in public hands. With that view he communicated with the Committee of Lloyds, asking whether they would be prepared in the public interest to undertake the management
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  and responsibility of public testing machines in cases where no local body might be prepared to take them over from the present joint stock companies who had set them up. Lloyd's Committee answered that they considered the Bill a good Bill, and that they would be ready to assist in effecting the object he had described in all cases where no local body could be found for the purpose, and that they would be prepared to enter into arrangements with all companies now owning these testing machines. Such arrangements had accordingly been virtually concluded in respect of the testing machines at various places in Staffordshire, and the Committee stated that they were ready to enter into similar arrangements at Sunderland, Glasgow, Bristol, and other places. Of course, wherever local bodies could be found, as at Birkenhead, to undertake the management of these machines, the intervention of the Committee would not be necessary. His great object had been to promote as far as possible the erection and maintenance of public testing machines in public hands in as many places as possible, so as to be most convenient to the shipping interest. With respect to the Correspondence, he should be happy to lay it on the Table.

IMPORTATION OF CATTLE.

  QUESTION.
  MR. SAMUDAasked the Vice President of the Council, If it is a fact that by the present arrangements of the Privy Council, while Foreign Cattle from unscheduled Countries are (from opposition of the licensed wharf owners) practically prohibited from being landed at any wharves in London, and proceeding from thence to the purchasers' premises, the same Cattle are allowed to pass through the streets to the same premises if they are landed in the first instance at Harwich; if he will take into his consideration the desirability of putting all Ports on the same footing, by prohibiting absolutely all Cattle from Foreign unscheduled Countries being allowed to be moved into the Country at all without first performing effectual quarantine; and, if he will consent to place on the Table of the House the Correspondence which has lately passed between different parties and the Privy

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  Council with reference to the licensing of Wharves in the Port of London for the landing of Cattle from unscheduled Countries.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, in reply, that healthy cattle from unscheduled countries landing at any other places than those set apart for the cattle of scheduled countries ceased to be deemed foreign cattle, and could then be moved in the Metropolis under the same regulations as home cattle. This provision applied to all the ports; but if there were any practical difference it might arise from the fact that the Customs had power in any port to fix the landing-places of unscheduled cattle. All ports were on the same footing, and the regulations of the Customs applied alike, except that in London there was a cordon which prevented the passage of cattle, whether home or foreign—a cordon which he hoped would be removed when we got the Metropolitan Market; and in London there were also certain police regulations with respect to the passage of cattle through the streets. He thought it would not be desirable to—
  "Put all Ports on the same footing, by prohibiting absolutely all Cattle from Foreign unscheduled Countries being allowed to be moved into the Country at all without first performing effectual quarantine."
  There would be no advantage in preventing the cattle imported from going into the country. As to Dutch cattle, he found that during the four weeks ending June 24, 1871, 10,849 cattle had been landed from the Netherlands at seven ports, of which 4,783 had been landed at Loudon, 2,824 at Harwich, and 2,823 at Hull. He had no objection to produce the Correspondence with reference to the licensing of wharves in the Port of London for the landing of cattle from unscheduled countries.

ELECTIONS (PARLIAMENTARY AND MUNICIPAL) (re-committed) BILL— [BILL 103.]
(Mr. William Edward Forster, Mr. Secretary Bruce, The Marquess of Hartington.)
ELECTIONS (PARLIAMENTARY AND MUNICIPAL) (re-committed) BILL— [BILL 103.]

  COMMITTEE. [Progress 10th July.]
  Bill considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Mode of taking the Poll.
  Clause 3 (Regulations as to polling).
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKEmoved, in page 3, line 15, after "municipal," insert—
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  "The poll shall commence at each polling station at eight of the clock in the forenoon of the day appointed for taking the poll, and shall be kept open till eight of the clock in the afternoon of that day."
  The hon. Baronet said, the question involved in this Amendment was no less a one than this—should a considerable number of voters belonging to the working classes be allowed to exercise the power conferred upon them by Parliament without being obliged to ask as a matter of favour from employers the time necessary to enable them to vote? In London a man's work was often situate miles away from his residence, and it was therefore impossible for him to vote during the dinner hour; and though the difficulties of voting might be greater in London than they were elsewhere, they certainly existed in a minor degree in other places, and they affected clerks as well as artizans. What he proposed had already been carried out in the case of the school board elections. It might be said that 12 hours was too long a time for the poll-clerks to perform their duties efficiently; but the reply to that was that the duties were not, on the whole, of a distressing nature, and that the pressure on those employed would generally occur only once in four or five years. As regarded the alleged difficulty of voting after dark, he might observe that under that Bill elections would no doubt almost universally take place in rooms where artificial light might be used. In the case of the school board elections, it was not the hours that caused a break down, but something else. The voting for the London School Board was from the rate books, the most cumbrous of all documents in the world, and there was distinct evidence that from four to five minutes were often consumed in finding out the names of the parties. No doubt the pressure of men coming up to vote between 7 and half-past was very great, and, owing to the cause he had mentioned, many were unable to record their votes before 8 o'clock. No such difficulty would occur in the case of Parliamentary elections, where the voting was from the register, and a man's name was easily found.
  Amendment proposed,
  In page 3, line 15, after the word "municipal," to insert the words "the poll shall commence at each polling station at eight of the clock in the

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  forenoon of the day appointed for inking the poll, and shall be kept open till eight of the clock in the afternoon of that day."—(Sir Charles Dilke.)
  MR. G. BENTINCKremarked, that the hon. Baronet had spoken of what the House would do in its wisdom; but he thought it would be nearer the truth to refer to what the House would do in its uncertainty. He objected to taking votes after dark, as there was already too much darkness in the Bill; and he thought the Amendment would not meet any difficulty which existed. There would always be some excitement at elections, and now that the door was to be completely opened for bribery, without fear of detection, there would be a still greater inducement to crowds to assemble. He had himself given Notice of an Amendment to provide that
  "The poll should commence at each polling station at eight of the clock in the forenoon of the day appointed for taking the poll, and should be kept open till six of the clock in the afternoon of that day;"
  but on re-consideration he should propose that the hour should not be later in boroughs than 4 o'clock, or 5 o'clock in counties.
  COLONEL BARTTELOTconsidered 4 o'clock to be quite late enough for the polling in large manufacturing towns, for they all knew what took place in such places after dark, and riots would be still more likely if the polling went on until 8 o'clock, while the danger of personation would be increased. If the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council would introduce a clause to enable them to have plenty of voting places, there would be no difficulty in golfing up the voters between 8 o'clock and 4 o'clock.
  MR. DIXONsaid, he hoped that the Amendment of the hon. Baronet (Sir Charles Dilke) would be accepted by the Government. He (Mr. Dixon) knew as much about large manufacturing towns as the hon. and gallant Colonel (Colonel Barttelot), and he could say that in the town which he had the honour to represent (Birmingham) everything connected with the polling went on quietly enough after dark. His belief was that the same quiet and order would attend the elections by Ballot in this country which had characterized those which had lately been concluded in Paris, when a stranger passing through might remain in ignorance of what was going on. He had
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  consulted the working men among his constituents as to their wishes on this point, because an inconvenient arrangement might result in a loss to them of the franchise, or of half a-day's wages; and they were unanimous in their desire that the time of polling should be extended even to 9 o'clock. He accordingly placed an Amendment to that effect upon the Paper, although he did not now intend to propose it. Still, he thought the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council might place confidence in the working classes, for he was sure that elections would be conducted in the best possible order after dark.
  MR. GATHORNE HARDYobserved, that the hon. Member for Birmingham did not seem to have a distinct recollection of events that took place in Birmingham after dark. One of the worst disturbances that had ever occurred in Birmingham had taken place after dark. [Mr. DIXON: There was no voting going on.] He was aware of that; but the circumstances were such as were likely to cause just as much excitement as an election. He was amused to find that the hon. Member for Cambridge (Mr. R. Torrens) had an Amendment on the Paper directing that
  "Every voter shall, before receiving a voting paper as hereinafter provided, stand at the entrance to the polling station uncovered and facing outwards whilst his name and description and the qualification in respect of which he claims to vote are called by the public crier or other person for that purpose appointed by the returning officer;"
  and as whatever lights were used would be within the room, the scheme seemed admirably adapted for assisting personation. In the course of the London School Board elections, whatever was objectionable took place after dark; and, considering that Parliamentary elections would be more exciting, the probability of collisions would be increased. He did not think a case had been made out for the adoption of the Amendment, because while he admitted that facilities should be given to all voters to come to the poll, he thought they must consider whether, in the interests of public order, it would be safe, especially in the winter, to allow the polling to go on for so long a period as the hon. Baronet (Sir Charles Dilke) proposed.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, scarcely any question raised in the Bill had caused him much more thought than

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  this, and therefore the hon. Member for West Norfolk (Mr. G. Bentinck) must not complain if he had been doubtful as to what course he would pursue, although the hon. Member had left him in some uncertainty as to whether it would be proposed that the poll should be closed at 6 o'clock, or whether the voting should be guided by the sun. If, however, the hon. Member wished to leave the system as it was no Amendment was necessary. No doubt there was a very strong reason for continuing the polling hours until after the working day. If they asked workmen to vote, it would be more convenient that they should vote at a time when they were not expected to work. The only question was, whether there were difficulties in the way of doing that at the present moment. Last year he tried the experiment of voting until 8 o'clock in the evening in connection with the London School Board election; but he very much doubted whether that was any advantage to the working men, for, thinking that they could vote late, a very large number put off voting until the last hour, and the result was that in several places they found it difficult to record their votes. That would show that they must make all their arrangements on the supposition that a very large number of electors would vote during the last hour or two, which would greatly increase the expense. Moreover, it was not advisable to make their arrangements of such a character as would hold out an inducement to the electors to vote late. On the contrary, it was important, not only as a matter of electioneering tactics, but for the sake of order, that they should "vote early." The experience of the last year did not lead him to approve of the Amendment. There was something in the argument that personation would be easy, but not perhaps so much as some hon. Members thought; and there was some force in the objection that no public proceeding likely to cause excitement should go on after dark. As the hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Dixon) suggested, he did rely upon the voters, and it was not from them that he should expect disorder, but from others who might assemble during the darkness. He should prefer to meet excitement during the daytime. But he was so sanguine as to the good working of the Ballot that
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  he believed there would be perfect quietness during an election, and that all fears as to increase of personation would be dissipated by experience. But he did not think it would be too much to ask that they should be allowed to have the first election under the Ballot held without alteration in the hours of polling, and then if they found they could safely extend the hours of voting, he should consider that a strong case had been made out for a change. He found that in Victoria the voting took place from 9 to 4, and in South Australia from 9 to 5. He was not quite sure what were the hours in France. [Sir CHARLES W. DILKE: The voting is on Sundays.] Then he would omit all reference to France. In America the polling was continued until 4 o'clock, and 6 o'clock, and sometimes 7 o'clock, but in no case until 8 o'clock. But unless the prolongation of time extended to 8 o'clock it would be no use; and, in fact, it would not be easy to stop short of 9, and even 10 o'clock. He should look with interest to the next election to see whether inconvenience resulted from the present arrangement of the hours of polling.
  MR. SCOURFIELDremarked that if merchants would not give their employés liberty to go to the poll, and if working men feared so much a small loss of their wages, there was not much to be said for the value they attached to the franchise. He believed that people could vote during their dinner hour; but, at any rate, it would be extremely objectionable to carry on the voting until 8 o'clock, especially as no complaints had been made of the present system. Parliament had only recently passed a Bank Holidays Bill; and, if necessary, there would be no difficulty in giving all reasonable facilities of voting.
  SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONEsaid, he had no desire to see secret voting carried on into the night. The great matter was to have a sufficient number of polling-places. He had generally found that employers of labour were ready to give those whom they employed reasonable time for voting, and if convenient polling-places were supplied he believed no difficulty would arise.
  MR. MELLYsaid, he would vote for the Amendment in order to afford to every elector time to vote, and with a

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  view to put an end to a species of bribery which existed in the North of England in the shape of the payment of half a-day's wages to workmen in order to allow them to record their votes. Hon. Members allowed themselves to be influenced in considering this Amendment by their old fears, which were founded on a half-hourly declaration of the state of the poll and great crowds of excited non-electors hanging about the committee-rooms. This Bill would establish an entirely new system, under which elections would take place as quietly as the elections in Paris last Sunday, where upwards of 250,000 persons voted without the smallest disturbance. As to personation, he thought a strong gaslight in a room would be as good a detective us a November sun at a quarter to 4 on a November day. Believing that all the fears which had been expressed were chimerical, he urged that it was most important to give the working and poorer classes of electors every opportunity of recording their votes.
  MR. BERESFORD HOPEsaid, he thought the reference to the recent election in Paris altogether inapplicable. After all that had occurred that election might be said to have realized the saying of Abraham Lincoln—it was voting by bullet as well as by Ballot. A seat in Parliament was an introduction to Court; it was an introduction to society, and it required something more than a mere capacity to do some local business, as a seat in the Legislature implied merely in Australia. The Ballot would not prevent adventurers from getting into Parliament, and bribery would follow—["Question!]—and if bribery would follow — ["Question!] — he maintained he was speaking directly to the Question — if bribery would take place, would not the dark corners of the streets of the boroughs between nightfall and 8 o'clock be scenes of disorder? Would there not be little squads of men down in courtyards, in publichouses, in the parlours of sub-agents, during the evening of that November day, and would not the commercial transactions of the election be carried on with an immunity and impunity which did not exist at present? He trusted, therefore, that the Committee would not assent to the Amendment.
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, he did not think the adoption of the Amendment
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  would give any increased facility of voting to the working classes. It was admitted that all the great employers of labour afforded facilities to their workmen to record their votes within the prescribed hours; but if the change contemplated by the Amendment were introduced, the consequence would be that great numbers of working men would be tempted to crowd the voting into the hours of darkness, and many, from the mere numbers then wanting to vote, would be unable to record their votes.
  MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCKsaid, it was not often that he differed from his Friends sitting on the same side of the House; but on this occasion he felt bound to support the Amendment. He represented a constituency of which the vast majority consisted of working men, and most of these working men were connected with mines. Now no miner could go to the poll during the dinner hour, because, inasmuch as the work was divided into shifts of six, eight, or ten hours, there could be no dinner hour. He had the good fortune to possess the confidence of the vast majority of the working classes in the constituency he represented. [A laugh.] Hon. Members opposite might laugh; but they were much mistaken if they imagined the working classes were entirely with them on this matter. In consequence of the peculiar mode in which mines were worked, whereby a man to earn his wages must be underground for a certain number of hours altogether, it was impossible that he could vote unless there was an extension of time such as was proposed by the hon. Baronet opposite (Sir Charles Dilke). He therefore hoped the Government would re-consider this matter, and if necessary bring up a clause.
  MR. A. EGERTONsaid, he knew something about the habits of the miners in the North, and he thought that by adopting this Amendment they would be doing more harm than good. He quite agreed that facilities were given by employers to enable their men to vote, and the extension of the time for polling might lead to abuses which were not contemplated.
  MR. JAMES, in opposing the Amendment, thought the only argument in its favour was that it would meet the convenience of a very limited class —

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  namely, those in large towns belonging to the building trades. It was not called for by the circumstances of the general body of working men; and the House therefore had to consider on which side the balance of advantages and disadvantages lay. Now, if they accepted the Amendment they would have for the first time elections under circumstances of which they knew nothing. They would have elections after dark, under very peculiar circumstances. People at 8 o'clock at night would be left in a state of doubt as to the result of the election, and the election would be virtually contested during the night; and, in fact, the result of the election could not be known till next day. There would be not only a day contention, but a night contention also. Was that a desirable state of things? He thought not; besides, the Amendment would double the expense of the election, as it would be impossible to have a staff of paid agents sitting in a room for 12 or 14 hours. The staff would therefore require to be doubled.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, he knew something of the working classes, and he thought the proposal to continue the polling after dark exceedingly rash. At the same time, he thought there ought to be a provision in the Bill that if any employer prevented any workman from attending the poll to vote, he ought to be subject to a penalty for obstruction. That was a deficiency in the Bill which ought to be supplied. But there was another point which demanded attention, and if elections were important, as he believed they were, the House ought to set apart a second day for the voting, which would obviate the difficulty which the Mover of the Amendment felt. ["No, no!] He knew that individuals with the economical ideas of hon. Gentlemen opposite, who were very zealous for the purity and freedom of elections, but who were still more careful about saving their own pockets, would dissent from such a proposal. But he held that if they increased the number of electors they must also increase the facilities of voting, and therefore the two suggestions which he had to make for that purpose were, that there ought to be a penalty imposed on employers who prevented their workmen from attending the polling-place to vote, and that the election should extend over
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  two days instead of one, so that in large constituencies the voting would be conducted in safety and by daylight.
  MR. M'LARENsaid, he thought the working classes were the best judges of their own wants, and if they were polled there was no doubt that they would be in favour of the Amendment. In many places their place of work was far from their place of residence, and it was absolutely impossible for them to attend at the polling-place during their dinner hour. The inconvenience would be greatly felt in Edinburgh, which he represented.
  MR. HERMONsaid, he thought the Amendment if carried would be simply a temptation to working men to postpone their vote till the last hour or two of the election, and if anyone reflected how difficult it was to get a railway ticket when there was a crowd of passengers at a booking-office, they would see the impossibility of receiving the votes if they were so delayed. He thought it would be necessary to extend the time for taking the poll. Perhaps the best course would be to fix Saturday, when most working men had a half-holiday, for taking the poll at elections.
  MR. CRUM-EWINGsaid, he would certainly support the Amendment. He knew what the opinion in Scotland was on this subject, having, during the Recess, received a deputation of working men, who represented to him the great advantage that would result from an extension of the hours of polling.
  MR. C. B. DENISONsaid, he hoped that no argument would induce Government to accede to the Amendment, at least as regarded the first election, so that they might have an opportunity of seeing the working of the present measure. He had a knowledge of the miner class of the West Riding, and he had never heard of voters belonging to that class having any difficulty in recording their votes. But of all proposals which had been made that of double days was the worst.
  COLONEL STUART KNOXsaid, he thought the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council was rather inconsistent in not accepting this Amendment on behalf of Government. The Bill, if it had any object at all, was to enable voters to promise to vote one way and to vote another without being found out, and the Amendment, rightly considering

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  the whole transaction a work of darkness, proposed that it had better be done in the night than during the day.
  LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, he thought there would be some inconvenience to the working classes in boroughs from the terms in which the Bill was drawn; but the Amendment applied to counties as well as boroughs, and he held that the extension of night hours to counties was not only mischievous but inopportune.
  MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, he hoped some hon. Member would give the House an idea of the working of the election of members of the school board. The hon. Gentleman might have given the House his experience of what happened in Westminster and other places.
  MR. WILBRAHAM EGERTONsaid, that at a meeting held on the preceding evening in St. James's Hall, on the subject of the extension of the hours of election, Mr. Odger stated that the Ballot was the only remedy for bribery at elections, and for bribery between the Minister and Members, and between the Bishops and the Lords. If that were the view of the working men on the subject of corruption generally, he was not at all surprised they were agitating in favour of the Ballot; but he hoped the House would throw out both the Amendment and the Bill itself.
  SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONErepresented a borough (Portsmouth) twice the size of that which the hon. Member for Edinburgh (Mr. M'Laren) represented, and where the building trade was largely carried on. Though the borough he represented was much more inconveniently situated for the members of that trade recording their votes than Edinburgh, he had never found any difficulty in polling his men, provided there were a sufficient number of polling-places. He could not but think that carrying on an election during the hours of darkness would be a thing most impolitic to do.
  MR. G. BENTINCKobserved, that it had been complained that men working in mines would have no facility for voting unless the hours were extended so that they could vote after coming up; but he could see no difficulty in having a polling-place in a mine. It would be a locality admirably adapted for carrying out the purposes of the Bill. The hon. Member for North Warwickshire
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  (Mr. Newdegate) had brought a charge against hon. Members opposite which was not well founded. He said that they wished to save their own pockets in electioneering matters; but if they could credit the statements of the noble Lord the Member for Tyrone (Lord Claud Hamilton) and others, the liberality of those hon. Members in electioneering matters was boundless. Workmen would be more than compensated for the loss of wages by what they received for their votes. ["Oh, oh!] Was there an hon. Member opposite who did not believe that something would be paid for every vote in a borough?
  MR. WATKIN WILLIAMSasked whether, in the event of the poll closing at 4 o'clock, the Government anticipated that the result of the poll would be made known on the same day? The answer to this question would very much influence his vote in reference to extending the time.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he was afraid that he could not give a precise answer, because the answer must much depend upon the size of the borough. In a small borough, no doubt the votes might be added up and the result published on the same day, if the poll closed at 4 o'clock; but in a large borough, or a county, this would be impossible.
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
  The Committee divided: — Ayes 60; Noes 239: Majority 179.
  MR. ASSHETON CROSS, who had given Notice to move a series of Amendments as follows, in line 15, after "municipal," insert—

  "1. All votes shall be given in the manner in which they have hitherto been given, but the state of the poll shall not be made known during the hours of polling;

  "2. The returning officer shall provide for every polling station a compartment constructed in such a manner that a voter while giving his vote therein cannot be seen or heard by any person who may be in or near the polling station other than the poisons by this Act allowed to be in such compartment;

  "3. No person, except the presiding officer, the clerks to the presiding officer, one agent for each candidate, the constables on duty, and the electors, shall be entitled to enter such compartment, and only one elector shall be entitled to enter at a time, and no elector shall be entitled to remain in any such compartment beyond the time required for voting; and no elector who shall enter such

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  compartment for the purpose of voting shall be allowed to learn the state of the poll there during the hours of polling;

  "4. Any person so entitled to enter such compartment who shall give any information before the close of the poll as to the state of the poll shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and shall be liable to imprisonment, either with or without hard labour, for any term not exceeding two years.

  "Leave out all the sub-sections except 4, 7, and 9."
  Whilst deprecating any renewed discussion upon the principle of the Bill, he felt bound to show what means should, in his opinion, be taken to stop the evils at present complained of. The remedy which he should have suggested would have been embodied practically in two clauses—first, that there should be no show of hands; and, secondly, that although the voting should continue to be open and public, no one should be allowed to know the state of the poll until the polling was entirely over. Anyone who read the evidence taken by the Committee would see that much of the bribery, intimidation, corruption, rioting, and disturbance at elections arose from the fact that the state of the poll was made known from hour to hour. There was a prevalent idea that if a candidate once reached the top of the poll that alone would operate in his favour. A poll was often turned at the dinner hour, when a tremendous effort was made, in the belief that whoever headed the poll after dinner had a great chance of being successful. Subsequently to this a number of voters generally held back to see if "anything was going about." All this arose from the state of the poll being known from hour to hour. The hon. Baronet the Member for Chelsea (Sir Charles Dilke) was a candid witness before the Committee, and he said in his evidence that afternoon bribery, so far as it depended upon a knowledge of the state of the poll, could be checked without the Ballot. That was a strong admission; and it showed that it would have been wiser, before forcing on the country a measure which was distasteful to many, to have tried first the experiment of private as distinguished from secret voting. That was attainable by admitting only one voter at a time to the polling-booth, and enforcing heavy penalties against all officials who made known the state of the poll before its close. With these conditions, he moved
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  the Amendments of which he had given Notice.
  Amendment proposed,
  In page 3, line 15, after the word "municipal,' to insert the words—
  "1. All votes shall be given in the manner in which they have hitherto been given, but the state of the poll shall not be made known during the hours of polling."—(Mr. Cross.)
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, the effect of the Amendments would be to change the Bill from a Ballot Bill into one providing that the state of the poll should not be made known. He did not think that even the very strong penal clause proposed by the hon. and learned Member for South-west Lancashire would prevent the state of the poll becoming known both in counties and boroughs, especially as the agent of each candidate would be able to ascertain for his own information how many electors had voted. Indeed, the fact was so important that it would be almost impossible to keep it secret. The real objection of the Government, however, to the hon. and learned Gentleman's proposal was, that in their minds it was insufficient to remedy the evils complained of. The hon. and learned Gentleman seemed to consider that almost all those evils arose from the temptation to bribe or coerce during the last two hours of the poll. As for bribery, that was, no doubt, the time when the evil chiefly exhibited itself; but both as regarded bribery, and still more as regarded intimidation, the evil was much more deeply seated. The Committee would, perhaps, excuse him from stating the arguments on which that conclusion rested; and he would therefore content himself with stating that the Government were unable to accept the Amendment.
  MR. G. B. GREGORYsaid, the Ballot was un-English in the sense in which he understood the term, as its principle was concealment, and, he might almost add, fraud, because it would enable a voter to profess one sentiment and vote for another. Although the franchise might not be a trust in the legal acceptation of the word, yet a man ought to exercise it in the face and subject to the control of society. Indeed, Lord Justice Holt and Lord Justice Hale, two of their greatest constitutional lawyers, laid it down that the right of voting was a high and transcendent thing. It had been alleged that the Ballot would stop

  1431
  bribery and intimidation, but it was now pretty generally admitted that bribery could not be prevented; while three of the most calm and deliberate Judges on the English bench had stated that every case of intimidation brought before them broke down, and could not be sustained. No doubt there had been serious cases in Ireland where riots had prevented electors from voting; but the Ballot was obviously not calculated to remove an evil of that kind. It should be remembered, too, that this sort of intimidation was directed not against the voters solely, but also against the candidates and their agents, whom the Ballot could not protect. He was sorry to say he believed that this Bill would be carried. Nevertheless, he wished to enter his protest against it. It would be carried, too, by a considerable majority, including many hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who had hitherto proclaimed themselves the strongest opponents of the system—who, in spite of their old convictions, their long-expressed opinions, and their well-considered conclusions, now made themselves parties to a measure which they had over and over again denounced. He wished to address a word of remonstrance to those Gentlemen, some of whom were connected with the oldest families in the country. Persons who, like himself, were connected rather with the middle than the higher classes felt something like despair and dismay when they found Gentlemen of high position advocating opinions which he believed would lead to extreme and violent changes. Why should they sacrifice more of their time, their domestic comforts, and their daily occupations in order to engage in a struggle which they could no longer continue successfully if they were abandoned by the Gentlemen he had referred to? They felt inclined to stand by and let the stream take its course, and engulf those Gentlemen in the rapids into which they had so wilfully and culpably cast themselves.
  COLONEL BARTTELOTsaid, he was much surprised at the observations of the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council in reply to the proposal of the hon. and learned Member for South-west Lancashire (Mr. Cross), because if they were to make this Bill as good for its objects as possible, the right hon. Gentleman, he thought, was bound to consider more attentively the
  1432
  proposition of his hon. and learned Friend, especially that part of it which referred to the proclamation of the poll. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to content himself by declaring that it involved a difficulty which he did not think they could overcome.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERdenied that he had said that. What he said was that the difficulty against which the hon. and learned Member for South-west Lancashire was contending could not be overcome by his proposed clause, but that that difficulty was entirely overcome by a clause in another part of the Bill.
  COLONEL BARTTELOTsaid, he should like to see in what part of the Bill the difficulty alluded to was met. The right hon. Gentleman would not deny that most of the bribery and corruption occurred during the last two hours of the polling, and this might be prevented by prohibiting declarations as to the state of the poll. He believed that if the state of the poll were not declared, secret voting would be unnecessary. They ought to pause before they threw over the proposition of his hon. and learned Friend. All he could say further was, that if his hon. and learned Friend divided the Committee upon his Amendment he would most heartily support him.
  MR. SCOURFIELDtook exception to the heavy penalties proposed by the Amendment, under winch a person would, by infringing the rules and regulations thereby laid down, incur the liability of imprisonment for two years with or without hard labour.
  LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, that after the vote the Committee had given a few minutes previously, the only persons out of doors who by outward manifestations had shown that they took an interest in the success of this measure—namely, the Liberal working men of London—would henceforth be quite indifferent about its success, because at a meeting held last evening they stated that, unless the Amendment of the hon. Baronet the Member for Chelsea (Sir Charles Dilke) were carried, they should cease to take any further interest in the progress of the Bill. There was therefore no reason why the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for South-west Lancashire (Mr. Cross) should not now be considered on its merits, against which, by the way, the right hon. Gentleman

  1433
  the Vice President of the Council had not advanced a single argument. He (Lord John Manners) submitted that his hon. and learned Friend had rather under than over-stated his case. His hon. and learned Friend might have gone further with his statement that his proposal would have the effect of checking bribery, especially at those particular hours when it was notorious that that evil practice was committed. The Amendment, if adopted, would undoubtedly have the effect of securing a thorough investigation into the acts of bribery perpetrated, and of bringing the guilt home to the offending parties. It would therefore, he thought, have a great advantage over the proposal of absolutely secret voting. It was admitted that in our Australian colonies the secret voting system had proved inoperative to cope with bribery on a large scale and intimidation; and, according to the recent papers received from that part of the world, the authorities in Victoria were contemplating a change in the system of voting, with the object of detecting bribery and personation. He believed that the proposal of his hon. and learned Friend the Member for South-west Lancashire would, if agreed to, prove an effectual check to bribery, intimidation, and personation, inasmuch as it would cause speedy punishment to follow the commission of the offence, and would have the effect of diminishing the principal objections that were felt to the present measure.
  MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCKprotested against the manner in which the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council had replied to the arguments of his hon. and learned Friend the Member for South-west Lancashire (Mr. Cross). The right hon. Gentleman simply said that the proposal would change the character of the Bill. But he would ask whether that change, were it to take place, would be the first one which the Government had made during the present Session? Had not the Government over and over again changed both their Bills and their policy? They had never produced one measure during the Session which left the House in the condition in which it was when it was introduced into it. He need only, by way of illustration, refer to the Army Regulation Bill, the Licensing Bill, and their other branches of policy. Why, then, should they not change the character
  1434
  of this Bill? The Ballot was no part of the title of this Bill, and it might be left out of it altogether with advantage to the community in general. The fact of the Government being satisfied of the necessity of the Ballot was no answer for the right hon. Gentleman to give to the proposal of his hon. and learned Friend, who had devoted much time and care to the drawing up of a sub-section which would obviate the objections raised to the present section. The right hon. Gentleman who had now the conduct of this measure succeeded the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Hartington) who had the conduct of the Bill of last year, but was subsequently deposed. This was no time, at the fag end of the Session, to consider a measure of such importance. It was his intention to follow his hon. and learned Friend into the lobby, not only in order to support the views embodied in the Amendment, but to protest against the mode in which the Government and the majority on the other side had endeavoured to conduct the business of the Committee.
  MR. HERMONwished to know if it was competent for him to move the Amendment that had been put on the Paper by the hon. Gentleman the Member for West Norfolk (Mr. G. Bentinck), extending the time for taking the poll until 6 o'clock?
  THE CHAIRMANsaid, the hon. Member might undoubtedly have moved it at the proper time. He was not then prepared to say the hon. Member might not do so at a future period.
  MR. G. BENTINCKsaid, he understood the hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Hermon) intended to move an Amendment, and he expected his (Mr. Bentinck's) name would have been called at the proper time. He had to protest against the proceedings of the Government on two grounds with respect to this Bill. The Bill had been put forward as a measure for the prevention of bribery. He told the Committee on the second reading of the Bill that many years ago, when there was a probability of the Ballot question being carried, arrangements were made in every small borough in England for the sale of each vote at a fixed price. In all these protestations against bribery by Her Majesty's Government and their supporters he had not heard a word of

  1435
  disapproval or refutation of the statement, and therefore he repeated it, and called the attention of the Committee to the fact that they were forwarding a measure to prevent the detection of bribery. The conduct of the Government supporters below the gangway was disparaging to the dignity of the House of Commons. ["Oh, oh! and cheers.] He was glad to hear hon. Members below the gangway cheering the sentiment, because he wished to remind the Committee that with reference to this Bill the head of the Government had been able successfully to silence a large number of his supporters who professed to be independent and strong advocates of the measure. They covered the Paper with Amendments which they were not even allowed to express their opinions on. If the proceedings in that House were to be carried on under the dictation of one man, who had the power of silencing his side of the House, it could hardly be called a deliberative Assembly.
  MR. J. G. TALBOTsaid, he could not go so far as the hon. Member who had just spoken in what he had said of those below the gangway who supported the Government, because they had heard an Amendment moved by one and supported by several others of those hon. Members. But the manner in which the Amendment of the hon. Member for South-west Lancashire (Mr. Cross) had been received was not creditable to the Committee. It was a bonâ fide attempt to deal with evils which nil acknowledged and deplored by taking his stand on the ancient lines of the Constitution, and providing such remedies as they prescribed, and not rushing too hastily into ill-advised legislation. It was better to improve what we had than hastily destroy it for an unknown system to us, but which, where it had been tried in other countries, had signally failed. They were called on to adopt this Bill at the bidding of the Prime Minister, supported by men who had hitherto been pledged against the Ballot, and it had been deputed to the most popular Member of the Government to carry it through the House, because no other Member of the Cabinet would have the least chance of doing so. Surely, before even the Vice President of the Council attempted to carry the Ballot against a half-convinced Cabinet and a not half-convinced House of Commons, he would do better to improve the Constitution under which
  1436
  we had so long flourished instead of adopting a new and untried system?
  SIR FRANCIS GOLDSMIDsaid, the Committee had already expressed an opinion upon this subject, and it required some assurance on the part of hon. Gentlemen opposite to blame the Liberal Members for not helping them to renew an unnecessary discussion.
  MR. CORRANCEsaid, he wished to know before they went to a division what it was they were called on to decide. One part of the Amendment was perfectly intelligible—namely, that all votes should be taken in the manner in which they had heretofore been taken. He wished it had stopped there; but when he read the subsequent part of it he was led to believe that the returning officer must provide a polling-booth constructed in such a manner that the voter should not be seen or heard by anyone.
  MR. BERESFORD HOPEsaid, the system of voting now proposed by the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Cross) was an intermediate system between the Ballot and the present mode of conducting elections. It was therefore very intolerant to call this "an unnecessary discussion" and try to shut up such a discussion, whether by clamour or by silence. The hon. Baronet (Sir Francis Goldsmid) could not prevent debate by simply getting up, ejaculating an adjective, and then sitting down in a feigned fit of indignation. Members in opposition at least had opinions and knew how to defend them. On the Ministerial side only three arguments were used. One was "Oh! the second "Question! the third "Divide! and when these arguments were exhausted they began with the cry of "Divide! back again to "Question! and "Oh!
  MR. ASSHETON CROSSdenied that in submitting this Amendment he was actuated by the slightest desire to offer factious opposition to the Bill. His only desire was to suggest a remedy which, in his opinion, would be more in accordance with the feelings and wishes of the country than that contained in the Bill.
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 158; Noes 234: Majority 76.
  MR. HERMON (for Mr. G. BENTINCK)moved in page 3, line 15, after "municipal," insert

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  "(1.) The poll shall commence at each polling station at eight of the clock in the forenoon of the day appointed for taking the poll, and shall be kept open till six of the clock in the afternoon of the same day."
  He believed that more time would be occupied in the poll under the Ballot than under the present system, and the extension of time he proposed would therefore be absolutely necessary. The opinion of some of the working men of London was that without such extension the Bill would be useless.
  Amendment proposed,
  In page 3, line 15, after the word "municipal," to insert the words—
  "1. The poll shall commence at each polling station at eight of the clock in the forenoon of the day appointed for taking the poll, and shall be kept open till six of the clock in the afternoon of that day."—(Mr. Hermon.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, the Amendment was open to much of the objection raised to the Amendment of the hon. Baronet (Sir Charles Dilke), while it would not secure the same advantages. He did not believe the recording of votes by Ballot would occupy more time than the present system of polling. On the contrary, he believed that voting would be very quickly performed. It would be better, on the whole, to leave the hours of polling as they stood, and take the experience of the next General Election, when the hour of closing the poll could be altered, if necessary, to what then seemed the convenience of the voter.
  SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONEmoved that the poll commence at 6 o'clock in the morning, as he believed the extension of the earlier hours would better suit the convenience of electors than that of the later hours.
  Amendment proposed to the said proposed Amendment, by leaving out the word "eight," in order to insert the word "six."—(Sir James Elphinstone.)
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, it would be inconvenient to make the arrangements and have everybody present before 8 o'clock in the morning, and no working men had asked that the poll should begin earlier than 8.
  MR. A. EGERTONsaid, he thought that personation would be facilitated if the poll began before 8 o'clock in the morning.
  MR. R. N. FOWLERsaid, he hoped the hon. Member for Portsmouth (Sir James Elphinstone) would divide the Committee on his Amendment.
  Question put, "That the word 'eight' stand part of the said proposed Amendment."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 324; Noes 57: Majority 267.
  Question put, "That the words
  '1. The poll shall commence at each polling station at eight of the clock in the forenoon of the day appointed for taking the poll, and shall be kept open till six of the clock in the afternoon of that day,'
  be there inserted."
  The Committee divided: — Ayes 66; Noes 309: Majority 243.
  MR. J. LOWTHERmoved, in page 3, line 15, to leave out all after "municipal" and insert a series of provisions for taking the votes by voting papers instead of personally. The hon. Gentleman said, his proposal was not ancillary to the Government plan, but was an alternative scheme, though it was entirely in unison with other portions of the Bill. Lord Russell and the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate) had on former occasions objected to voting papers, because their use might lead to a resort to the Ballot. The question now was, whether voting papers would not be preferable to the Ballot? Voting by means of papers was not a novelty. It had been resorted to in the case of elections at the Universities, in the elections of Boards of Guardians, and in the election to schools and other charities. It used to be urged as an objection to voting papers that they were open to great abuses; but in his Amendment every possible care had been taken to guard against any kind of fraud, and he thought he should be able to prove that precautions were provided against the abuse, which was alleged sometimes to be committed in elections for Boards of Guardians, of an agent or canvasser obtaining from an elector his signed voting paper, and afterwards filling in the name of a candidate at the time of election. Though holding Conservative opinions, and being, consequently, opposed to organic changes, he was not prepared to defend the existing system of conducting Parliamentary elections in

  1439
  all its integrity; for he thought the riot, tumult, personation, the various frauds and irregularities which occurred during a Parliamentary contest were a scandal on representative institutions; but, while trying to remedy the abuses of the present system, he would still desire to retain its advantages. By means of voting papers, the personal responsibility of the voter, which it was desirable should not be got rid of, would be retained. This would not be establishing a novel and un-English method of recording votes, which would be distasteful to the great majority of voters, and would probably not work satisfactorily; but this system would remove many glaring abuses, such as tumults around polling-booths, and also do away with many of the difficulties that now attach to voting by working men during the necessarily limited hours allotted to polling under the system now existing, and about to be perpetuated under this Bill. A large number of persons who were not blessed with health and bodily strength were, by the present system, practically disfranchised; and all hon. Members who had gone through a contested election must have experienced the unpleasantness of being obliged, in the interests of their party, to urge upon aged and infirm electors the duty of recording their votes at the poll. Others whose avocations carried them away from the immediate locality where their qualification existed should also be considered, and those hon. Members who represented mercantile constituencies or seaport towns, where the people were engaged in the coasting trade, would know how many were prevented from exercising the franchise by business calling them away at the time of an election. There were many others who habitually abstained from voting in consequence of the annoyances to which voters were exposed, and the House should endeavour to induce such persons to engage in political affairs, for to refrain from participation in them was a great evil. The object of the Government was said to be to enable electors to record their votes without interruption; but would their Bill effect that? By their plan a voter would still be subjected to all the disagreeable circumstances which had hitherto attended Parliamentary elections. The object of any electoral system ought to be to
  1440
  secure the maximum number of votes at the minimum expense and trouble to the voters or others on their behalf, though he was not an advocate for the undue diminution of the cost of elections, since it would tend to fill the House of Commons with adventurers and persons who were not qualified to represent constituencies; while at the same time much might be done with advantage in the way of reasonable reduction. The Government had not taken into consideration the expenses of the conveyance of voters. Some hon. Members might say—"Don't pay them at all;" but that was the doctrine propounded by the Paris Commune—namely, the government of the country by the towns; for if those who lived in remote districts were left to travel long distances to the poll at their own cost, that would be absolute disfranchisement to many—a result which he was sure would not be sanctioned by the Committee. The non-resident voter, too, must be conveyed to the poll at some expense either to himself or to the candidate; and, as his right to vote had been recognized by the House, all reasonable facilities for voting ought to be accorded to him. With respect to the objections that might be entertained to his proposal, he was sure that those who had studied it would admit that it did not afford greater scope for the exercise of undue influence than was given by the present system. Some thought that a bribe would be given as readily for a voting paper as for a vote; but he thought that could not be the case, considering the machinery which he proposed; while the precautions contained in his scheme would effectually provide against an agent filling his pockets with voting papers, and recording the votes of those whom he had canvassed. The first provision in his Amendment was that—
  "The returning officer shall, on the occasion of every Election, provide a book or books containing a sufficient number of voting papers for the use of the voters at such Elections;"
  which was similar to the clause in the Bill respecting the provision of machinery for the Ballot. His second proposal, that—
  "Each voting paper shall be attached to a counterfoil bound up in the book in which it is contained, and shall be in the form numbered (1) in the Schedule to this Act annexed,"
  was intended to secure the inviolability

  1441
  of the vote, and to meet objections that had been urged against his scheme, and would, he contended, prevent the possibility of forgery and the manufacture of voting papers. The third proposal was that—
  "On the application of any voter in writing, under his own hand, in the form numbered (2) in the said Schedule, transmitted by post or otherwise, and received by the returning officer after the issue of the writ for the Election and before the day of polling, the returning officer shall, in manner hereinafter mentioned, transmit to such voter a voting paper."
  It should be in the discretion of the voter whether he would personally deliver his application to the returning officer or send it by post; but the returning officer must send the voting paper by post to the elector, and not to any other person. He next provided that—
  "Previously to transmitting a voting paper to a voter the returning officer shall enter the name and address of the voter, and his number in the register of voters, on the voting paper, and also on the counterfoil; on the receipt of the voting paper the voter shall enter therein the name or names of the candidate or candidates for whom he is entitled and intends to vote, and shall subscribe the voting paper with his own name; the entry of the name or names of the candidate or candidates as aforesaid, and the subscription by the voter of his own name, shall be made in the presence of a justice of the peace, who shall retain the voting paper, and cause it to be, in manner hereinafter mentioned, transmitted without delay to the returning officer."
  Without his entering into a defence of the magistracy of the country, he thought the Committee would be of opinion that he could not select a more trustworthy agency to whom this important matter should be confided. If the magistrate and the voter were personally acquainted with each other, there need be no test of identity; but if, as he hoped, the majority of the electors who desired to use voting papers were unknown to either the magistrates or the police, he proposed that such a voter should be accompanied by a householder who was personally known to the justice, and could attest on oath to the identity of the voter. He next provided that—
  "The transmission of a voting paper to a voter by the returning officer, or to the returning officer by the justice of the peace, may be by post, and if by post shall be post-free; but any other mode of transmission may be adopted, in the case of the returning officer, upon the application or with the consent in writing of the voter, and in case of the justice of the peace at his discretion, if he think such other mode more speedy than and
  1442
  equally secure as the transmission by post; the returning officer shall take proper means for securing the prompt delivery to him of voting papers, whether sent by post or otherwise, and shall give notice of the poll-booth at which he will enter all votes that are given by voting papers; the returning officer or his deputy shall, during the hours of polling on the day of polling, publicly open at the booth aforesaid all voting papers transmitted to him, and read out from each voting paper the vote given for the candidates therein named, and duly record such vote in the poll book, and votes so recorded shall be of the same validity as if they had been given personally."
  This would obviate the difficulties which many felt as to the establishment of a system of secret and irresponsible voting, and it would also enable a comparison of the voting paper with the counterfoil—a check which was not possible under the Government system, anything which prevented the checking of votes being, in his opinion, open to grave objection. He did not go so far as his right hon. Friend the Member for Shoreham (Mr. S. Cave), who desired to have an open scrutiny of the Ballot papers, because he hoped that the adoption of his scheme would result in diminishing the number of Petitions praying for a scrutiny. Seeing the necessity for affording every facility to object to voting papers which had not been fairly given, he proposed that—
  "The returning officer or his deputy shall reject any voting paper that on comparison with the book of counterfoils does not tally therewith, or which contains the names of more candidates than the voter is entitled to vote for, but, except on the grounds aforesaid, he shall not reject for informality any voting paper that contains the surname of any candidate for whom the voter is entitled to vote, and that purports to have been subscribed by the voter with his own name in the presence of a justice of the peace; all voting papers the votes in respect of which are recorded at the Election, or which are rejected for the reasons aforesaid, shall be filed by the returning officer; and any person shall be allowed to examine such voting papers and take copies thereof on payment of a fee not exceeding one shilling;"
  in order to see that there had been no trick, for in the hurry of the moment the returning officer might be prevented from detecting that fraud which a more minute inspection would reveal. He also provided that—
  "A voter at an Election shall not be entitled to more than one voting paper, and when he has signed a voting paper in favour of any candidate at any Election, he shall not be entitled to vote personally at such Election."
  It would be necessary for a person to go through the formality of deliberate perjury

  1443
  if he intended to vote in person as well as by a voting paper, and the offence of which he would be guilty was declared to be a misdemeanour. Then came a very important provision—No. 15—that
  "No person, except the returning officer, his deputy, or clerks, shall be entitled to inspect the counterfoils of voting papers before the day of polling, or to ask the names of the persons who have applied for voting papers; and it shall be the duty of the returning officer, his deputies and clerks, to give no information until the day of polling, with respect to the names of the persons who have applied for voting papers."
  That disposed of many of the objections which had been raised on a former occasion, and tended, he thought, to the almost absolute perfection of the system. He thought the Committee would be of opinion that these provisions would guard against any reasonable fear of tampering with voting papers. The schedule provided for the obtaining of the voting paper, and its being deposited in the hands of a justice of the peace for final delivery at the poll. In this way it was intended to get rid of the evils of proxies, and of canvassers going about armed with voting papers. He wished to remind the Committee that these schemes had never been fairly laid before the House, or considered by it. When the Reform Bill of 1867 was introduced by his right hon. Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire it contained a provision for voting by means of papers. The reception accorded to that proposition by the House of Commons was not, on the whole, favourable. But another proposition, made as an Amendment to the Bill, was received with even less favour—he meant the proposal of the late lamented Member for Bristol (Mr. Berkeley), for establishing that system of voting to which the Prime Minister had become so recent a convert. Therefore, if the present House of Commons differed so much from its predecessor in one important point, he was justified in hoping that the comparatively slender majority which voted against the proposition of his right hon. Friend (Mr. Disraeli) would now have become a majority in its support. Indeed, he was not without hope of obtaining some approval of this Amendment from the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government, who had advanced such strong reasons against the Ballot. [Mr. GLADSTONE dissented.]
  1444
  The views of the right hon. Gentleman were pretty well known on this subject, and he believed the right hon. Gentleman had made known his objections to the Ballot upon the hustings. [Mr. GLADSTONE dissented.] Was he to understand, then, that the right hon. Gentleman, during the whole course of his political career, had never, on any occasion, divulged his sentiments on the Ballot? All he could say was that the right hon. Gentleman was placed in the position of Prime Minister of this country while the country was under the impression that he was an opponent of what he now termed secret voting; and he for many years represented a constituency which in those days was scarcely in favour of the Ballot. Returning from this digression, he wished to call attention to the fact that in 1867 a proposal was made in the House of Lords that voting papers should be used in Parliamentary elections, and although the machinery now provided was not placed before the House of Lords, and Lord Derby, then the head of the Government, declined to commit himself to details of the scheme then under discussion, the proposal was adopted by a large and overwhelming majority. He knew that hon. Gentlemen opposite were not disposed to attach much weight to what took place in "another place," and probably some hon. Gentlemen would say that the fact that this proposal had been endorsed by the House of Lords was a reason why ardent patriots and so-called representatives of advanced sections of the people should be inclined to view it with suspicion, if not alarm. But he would point out that in a House of 150 Members on that occasion the "Contents" in favour of the proposal were 114, while the "Not-contents" against it were only 36. Hon. Members who had studied the composition of the Upper Chamber would know that these numbers did not represent a party division. Without, however, professing to know what might be the balance of parties in "another place"—and the Government were varying the monotony of that balance by a gradual process—it was patent that the majority in that division included the names of strong supporters of the right hon. Gentleman. The vote then taken showed, therefore, what was the unbiassed judgment of those who were capable of giving a more impartial consideration to a subject

  1445
  of that kind than Members of that House. The scheme as now proposed was a decided improvement on previous proposals of a similar kind. This proposal, however, was substantially that which came down from the House of Lords after approval had been given to the rough sketch in the division to which he had referred; but the details were filled out very much in the form in which they now stood on the Paper. Those who had seats in the House at that time would remember that the Lords' Amendments to the Reform Bill were never really considered by the House. A majority of the House, acting together for the first time in two years, under the leadership of the present Prime Minister, trooped down to the House determined to discuss as little as possible and to agree to nothing. There were some important Amendments to be considered, one relating to the proportionate representation of minorities; but the majority of the House was prepared to regard every suggestion from the other House in the spirit with which they would view a mad dog. A discussion did arise on voting papers, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham (Mr. Bright) could not contain himself; he was perfectly furious against all the Lords' Amendments. With reference to voting papers Member after Member got up and insisted that the system would be attended by imaginary evils, while the good results expected from its adoption were wholly disregarded.
  And it being now ten minutes before Seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to report Progress.
  House resumed.
  It being now Seven of the clock, the House suspended its sitting.
  The House resumed its sitting at Nine of the clock.

NAVY—ADMIRALTY ADMINISTRATION.

  RESOLUTIONS.
  MR. SEELY: Mr. Speaker—I rise to call attention to certain recent changes which have been made in the administration of the Admiralty, and to move the following Resolutions:—
  "That it is desirable that the Board of Admiralty should be discontinued, and that the offices of Controller and Superintendent of Her Majesty's
  1446
  Dockyards be held by persons who have special knowledge of the duties they have to discharge, and that their tenure of office be not limited to a term of five years."
  I need scarcely remind the House that on various occasions I, and several hon. Friends of mine, have called attention to what may be termed abuses in the administration of the Admiralty. We have complained that where the Admiralty were concerned purchases were made in the interests of the seller rather than of the buyer, and that sales on the contrary principle were effected in the interests of the buyer rather than of the seller; that old wooden ships were repaired at a cost greater than that for which they could have been bought new; that the number of dockyards was too great, thereby increasing unnecessarily the cost of superintendence; that the accounts could not be understood; that the Board of Admiralty was a cumbrous and inadequate machine for managing such a large Department, and that incompetent persons were placed in positions of great trust and responsibility. But some of the things of which we complained have been rectified. The system of accounts has been improved, and is in process of further improvement. We no longer complain that purchases are made on principles other than those which would guide an ordinary private firm in the transaction of their business; two dockyards have been discontinued, thereby reducing the cost of superintendence from £120,000 to £93,000; and the Admiralty no longer repair their old wooden ships at a cost greater than they could be purchased for new. But, Sir, the reforms in the administration of the Admiralty are still incomplete, and incompetent persons are still intrusted with the management of business in that Department of the State about which they know but little. I regret that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Pontefract did not seize the great opportunity he had for putting an end to the Board of Admiralty. That the right hon. Gentleman did not like the Board of Admiralty is evident, but still he did not abolish it. In addressing this House, the right hon. Gentleman stated that the other members of the Board must be looked upon rather as his assistants than in any other light, and that the Board itself must be considered rather as departmental than as

  1447
  in accordance with the usual machinery of a Board. In support of this view of the subject, I may mention that in 1870 the Board met only thirty-three times; that their meetings only lasted a few minutes, and that no business of any importance was transacted at those meetings. According to the evidence of the permanent Secretary, Mr. Lushington, the Board met only to register the decrees and decisions that had been already arrived at; and Admiral Robinson, in giving evidence before the Duke of Somerset's Committee, stated that the First Lord had directed that no Board should be held in his absence. Mr. Lushington stated before the same Committee that he was not aware whether the Board sanctioned the Navy Estimates or not. It is evident, therefore, that as regards the present system the Board is of no advantage for counsel, and that, I apprehend, is the only value of a Board; but if it is of no real benefit, it is not by any means free from evil. Thus, the First Lord has not that complete power which a man, who assumes the responsibility he does, ought to possess. It is evident from the discussion that took place in this House with regard to Sir Spencer Robinson, that the First Lord did not feel that he could deal with Sir Spencer Robinson as a mere subordinate, and that he looked upon him somewhat in the light of a colleague, and that I consider not quite in accordance with the responsibility he claims. It is stated by Sir Spencer Robinson, in his evidence which he gave before the Duke of Somerset's Committee, that the patent by which the Lords were appointed, and the Order in Council of 1869 clashed—nay, more, he stated that if the patent was legal, and was the only document that ought to be acted upon, then the Lords of the Admiralty, during the two years in which they had been in office, had been committing, day by day, some illegal act by issuing orders and decrees signed by one of themselves instead of two as the patent required. But although of no value in itself, the Board serves as a cloak to screen the individual Lords of the Admiralty, because Orders are issued in the name of the Board for which only one individual Lord is really responsible. Then, again, the Order in Council fixes the duty or duties which devolve upon each Lord; but no man who has had anything to
  1448
  do with business would ever have framed a document like that. The hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Baxter), in answer to a Question put by Lord Houghton, in the course of his examination before the Duke of Somerset's Committee, said—"I think it is a simple waste of time to keep up this Board;" and Mr. Lushington said—
  "I am distinctly opposed to boards as Governing Bodies, and therefore I very much prefer the now system; but I should like the new system to be simple and homogeneous. I do not like any officer having a name which does not really indicate the function which he performs; and if I might offer a criticism upon the recent re-organization, I should say that it has not gone far enough, and that there are many old fragments of the ancient régime remaining which simply encumber and obscure the procedure. For instance, in my opinion, the Board at present is not merely valueless, but absolutely detrimental to public business — a Board which really does nothing, and which takes no responsibility, but in the name of which the order is finally given."
  I am aware that in this House it would be of no value to appeal to the merely theoretical, and that unless I can show that the working of the present system is defective I cannot hope to carry my Resolutions. The question therefore is, does the present system work well? Now, the business of the Admiralty may be divided into two great branches—the material and the personnel. The Controller is supposed to have the control of the material branch; but the truth is that the limits of responsibility are not properly defined. In the evidence that was given before the Duke of Somerset's Committee, it was stated that the First Naval Lord had said that the fancies of the Controller, with regard to the building of a particular new class of frigates, ought not to be considered, and that the opinions of the Controller, Chief Constructor, and of the Director General of Naval Ordnance had been over-ruled, and the views of others adopted in their place. If I might refer to the late lamentable loss of the Captain, by which 500 brave men's lives were sacrificed, it will be found that up to the present hour we do not know who was responsible for that unfortunate occurrence. With regard to the personnel of the Navy, the First Sea Lord is supposed to be responsible; but it was curious to consider what his responsibility, according to the meaning of the Admiralty, signified. The First Sea Lord was responsible for providing officers and men; for the movements of

  1449
  the Fleet; and for the discipline of the service. It is not a satisfactory state of things that so important a branch of the service as the officers of the Royal Navy should be in a chronic state of discontent; but that this discontent exists I do not think can be denied. Upon this point there is a witness who is entitled to speak with some authority—namely, Sir Spencer Robinson, who, in the pamphlet which he has just published, says that—
  "The dissatisfaction amongst officers remains unabated, and there reigns throughout that body a general feeling of discouragement as to the future prospects of all ranks."
  There have been of late years four Orders in Council altering the flow of promotion in the Navy. On the 1st of August, 1860, there was one issued; on the 9th of July, 1864, another; on the 24th of March, 1866, another; and on the 22nd of February, 1870, another; and before long, doubtless, there will be another yet. All this is exceedingly unsatisfactory, and I put this forward as a proof that the general management of the Navy is not what it ought to be. Having dealt with the officers in the Navy, I will come to the case of the seamen. The First Lord of the Admiralty, not long since, in moving the Navy Estimates, stated that the Admiralty had endeavoured to obtain, since last September, 450 blue-jackets without success, having only obtained 50 in that period; that we had now 500 too few blue-jackets, which was a very serious fact, and no doubt it is so. And it is a matter for much astonishment, considering the large Mercantile Marine we possess, that we should only be able to obtain 50 blue-jackets in the space of six months. We had, in 1865, in our Mercantile Marine—including seamen, stokers, and others—197,643 men; of whom 72,058 were able seamen. In 1865 there were about 20,000 ordinary seamen, of which number I am assured upon authority equal to any in this House, that 5,000 might be reckoned as able-bodied seamen; about 20,000 apprentices and boys, of whom about 5,000 might be reckoned as ordinary seamen; and about 20,000 foreigners, of whom 5,000 had been so long in our service that they might be fairly depended upon for our employment. In the year 1870 I find that we had 153,000 fishermen, which, taken altogether, would give us a
  1450
  Reserve force of about 230,000 men available for the Navy, and yet there was a difficulty in obtaining even 450 men in six months. This was another instance of the Admiralty management not being exactly what it ought to be. This subject of manning the Navy is one which has often occupied the attention of the House of Commons. The question was brought under the consideration of this House a few weeks ago by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Liverpool (Mr. Graves), and on that occasion the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty met the hon. Member's Motion by promising that the subject should be considered during the Recess, and he expressed a hope that he should be able to devise some plan which would meet the views of the hon. Gentleman. But the First Lord, if he had not been quite so reticent, and if he had taken the House move into his confidence, could have told them that this subject was actually under consideration at that very time—that there was an official Committee then sitting to inquire into the subject of manning the Navy—and that that Committee was composed of a colonel in the Engineers, a captain in the Royal Navy, and a colonel in the Marines. That Committee was about to make their Report, but after the debate that took place in this House it was suddenly dissolved, and its Report cancelled. This is the explanation I have received of the matter; but I do not know how far it is accurate. I merely allude to the circumstance as a proof that my assertion is correct—that the subject of manning the Navy is one which has been frequently under the consideration of this House and of the Admiralty. But, Sir, not only have we found a difficulty in obtaining men, but also in keeping them. A Return, No. 118, dated March, 1871, has been published, entitled the "Cruise of the Flying Squadron," from which it appears that the Flying Squadron went to various places, and that at almost every place it touched at it lost some of its men by desertion. Thus, at Rio, it lost 12 men; at Monte Video, 12; at the Cape, 12; at Melbourne, 158; at Auckland, 41 broke away from the boats, while 14 took forcible possession of the Phœbe's cutter, and escaped. This desertion of the men was endeavoured to be stopped by allowing none but good-conduct men to go ashore.

  1451
  The result of the cruise was, that of 2,605 men, borne upon the books of the Flying Squadron, 321 deserted, of whom 21 were recaptured, leaving a balance of 300 men actually lost by desertion during this cruise alone. And there is rather an ominous paragraph in page 8 of Sir Spencer Robinson's pamphlet, which, although not very distinct, alludes to something even worse than desertion. It is all very well to have this state of things in our Navy so long as we are at peace; but if we pay £10,000,000 per annum we want a Navy that will be effective in time of war, and such arrangements ought to be made that if we want 500 men 5,000 should offer to join. Now, there are many ship companies in this country which have no difficulty whatever in getting men, or, when they have once got them, in keeping them. I might mention the Cunard and other lines, but I would allude more particularly to the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company. They have 68 ships afloat and 8,250 men. They have no difficulty in obtaining any men they require, and they are subject to no desertions. The fear of dismissal operates as the greatest punishment and most effectual check upon insubordination; and instead of there being anything like discontent among their officers, or disloyalty among their men, this is what the chairman of the company said at their last meeting:—
  "He begged to say distinctly that the highest spirit of unanimity and loyalty pervaded the whole of their service, both at sea and on land. They had most able and enthusiastic servants, who did the utmost in their power to promote the company's interests. They could not be better served than they were; they hoped always to continue to be as well served."
  I bring this matter forward, Sir, with the hope that we may be able some day to say the same of the Royal Navy. I think it is a disgrace that a wealthy country like England should not get picked men to serve her, and when she has got them should not be able to keep them. Here, Sir, I would mention what was told me by my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings (Mr. T. Brassey). He said there are 7,000 seamen on board of different yachts at this season of the year. There are no desertions from those yachts, and the owners have no difficulty in getting, or in retaining, any
  1452
  number of men they require. Again, take the police force throughout the country. They are upwards of 40,000 in the United Kingdom. There is no difficulty in getting men for the police, and, though the discipline is strict, there are no desertions. Why cannot the Admiralty tell the same tale? It is alleged as some reason why the Admiralty do not manage their business well, that it is very vast. The First Sea Lord, in his evidence before the Duke of Somerset's Committee, said he had more to do than one man could possibly accomplish; and Lord Grey, in the draft Report presented to that Committee, spoke of the enormous business of the Admiralty, while the Duke of Somerset used very similar language. Now, I should like, Sir, to look at these things, divesting them of all mystification if I can. What, then, is this vastness of the Admiralty business, as compared with that of other establishments? Take the amount of money spent. Though large, it is less than £8,000,000 sterling for the effective service, deducting the half-pay and pensions. The Peninsular and Oriental Company have nearly £4,500,000 of expenditure; and we must take into account their revenue also, because it involves as much trouble to manage as their expenditure. Then take the late Mr. Brassey, the father of the hon. Member for Hastings. In the course of a year he occasionally turned over £5,000,000 or £6,000,000, and he employed 80,000 men. Why, the Admiralty do not employ 80,000 altogether. Their seamen, marines, clerks, and dockyard labourers do not make up that number. [An hon. MEMBER: Yes; more than that.] Well, I stand corrected if that be so. My impression was that it was not 80,000; that there are about 61,000 seamen, marines, &c., in the Fleet, and between 12,000 and 13,000 dockyard artizans. That would give a total of some 73,000; and I cannot see where the others are to be found. Be this, however, as it may, the illustration I offer is at any rate tolerably pertinent; and we must bear in mind, too, that the Admiralty employ about the same number of people year by year, whereas the late Mr. Brassey had occasionally to reduce his number to 25,000 or 30,000, and then suddenly at times to run them up to 70,000 or 80,000, which every man of business knows to be a very difficult

  1453
  matter. Then take the case of the London and North-Western Railway Company. They have 1,100 miles of line, with one general manager to superintend the line; they have 250 stations, 25,000 men, 3,000 carriages, 30,000 waggons, and 1,200 engines; while their expenditure is £4,500,000 a-year. And I would make this observation as to that Company—that they and all the other railways in the kingdom communicate to each other the amount of their working expenses, and the cost per mile of coal, oil, &c.; while the Admiralty, unfortunately, shut themselves up within the walls of Whitehall, and refuse almost to hold any communication with the outer world. ["No!] Well, if their business is not well managed, it is not because enough money is not spent in its management. The cost of the Office at Whitehall for Lords, clerks, messengers, &c., is £163,000 a-year; whereas the Peninsular and Oriental Company pay for directors, clerks, &c., £30,000 a-year. And alluding to the case of the messengers, I must ask the First Lord how it happens that they want £9,723 for messengers at Whitehall? They pay £5,040 a-year for permanent messengers, and a further sum of £4,683 for temporary boys, commissionaires;, &c.; making together the sum of £9,723. The sum paid by the Peninsular and Oriental Company for messengers is only about £390. I would also mention that in the Navy Department of the United States there are 79 officials, clerks, messengers, &c., at a total charge per annum of only £28,000. Taking all these matters, then, into consideration, I come, Sir, to the conclusion that the present system is not satisfactory, and that we must either go back to the old Board with all its faults, or go forward and abolish the Board altogether, and have a single Minister of State instead. The argument for a Board may be briefly put thus:—The First Lord requires advice, and I should be the last man to argue against that proposition. We very rarely have First Lords who know much about their business. We occasionally have First Lords who know very little about their business, and sometimes First Lords who know nothing whatever about their business when they enter upon their office; and therefore I should be extremely sorry to say anything that would prevent them from obtaining advice.
  1454
  The question is, whether a Board is the best means of giving the First Lord advice? I hold that it is not; and for these reasons:—If there be an official Board, I apprehend it would hardly be consistent for the First Lord to seek other advice before the Board met; and when the Board did meet and had come to a decision, the First Lord would scarcely be acting in accordance with etiquette if he went and sought for other advice to counteract the decision to which his Board had come. Now, what are the questions which the First Lord has to solve? He has to determine upon questions relating to the officers, to the supply of seamen, to discipline, and so on. Suppose one of these questions comes before the Board? The First Sea Lord is there, and perhaps a Civil Lord is there, too. What said Lord John Hay before the Duke of Somerset's Committee on this matter? Why, in substance — I do not quote his exact words — that the First Sea Lord is such a very great man that there could be no freedom of discussion between him and the other members of the profession, and that the opinion of the First Sea Lord was almost invariably taken. Of what advantage, then, would it be to put one of these questions before the Board? Would it not be far better at once to have some power of consulting on these questions with members of the profession who do not happen to be official personages at Whitehall? But even in the Department of the First Sea Lord he would obtain very valuable advice. I might instance another case—say on a question of accounts. Suppose such a question to be brought before the Board. The Board may sometimes be constituted of persons who, I am not going too far in saying, have perhaps scarcely ever seen a ledger in their lives, and yet they would have to determine this question of accounts. If the First Lord was not satisfied with the explanations of his officers, the Accountant General, or the sub-Accountant General, what should prevent him from going into the City and getting the opinion of competent men there on the matter? If there was a Board, its opinion must be taken; the question must be discussed at the Board, although half its members know nothing of the question before them. Moreover, the Board is constantly changing; it is formed and selected upon political considerations,

  1455
  and not on the ground of competence to discharge the duties that have to be performed. Therefore I say that a Board is not the best means of giving advice to the First Lord. But, further, there is something to be done at the Admiralty besides advising the First Lord. The daily routine business of the Department has to be carried on. Now if there is a Board, the usual, I may almost say the invariable, course is to allot a branch of Admiralty business to each member of the Board. Let us look for a moment at how this will work. The business is divided among members, a great number of whom, it is no exaggeration to say, know nothing of the matters they have to superintend. Take, far example, the Civil Lord. He has certain business to manage. During the last 10 years we have had no fewer than 10 Civil Lords, and three of them did not average three months in office. I need scarcely remark that Civil Lords are, as a rule, selected from the rising young men of the party, whether on this or on the other side of this House, and not from any particular knowledge which they possess of Admiralty administration. There is, therefore, no unity of purpose. These Lords are constantly changing; and, to quote Sir Spencer Robinson, at page 13 of his most valuable pamphlet, in speaking of the Storekeeper General, and of the difficulties which he had to contend with, Sir Spencer says that that officer—
  "Is subject to the ever-varying, ever-shifting views of his superiors, who are necessarily ill-acquainted with buying, selling, and bookkeeping."
  Now, the result of this state of things is that those gentlemen who know nothing of their business being put over the heads of men who do know something of it, the permanent heads of Departments lose all, or the greater part of their interest in the business they have to manage. If these Lords interfere—and they often think that they are very clever—they take up a great portion of the time of the permanent officers in teaching them the rudiments of their business; and if they do not interfere, I ask what use is there in paying them £1,000 a-year for nothing? Then, again, with regard to those Lords who are generally in Parliament. Why, during the Session, they are obliged to be here at half-past 4 o'clock in the
  1456
  afternoon when the House is sitting, and to remain, it may be, until 2 or 3 in the morning; and, I ask, is it likely that they can, under these circumstances, manage their business in the same way as the permanent officers do? And when the Session is over they have their duties to attend to at Whitehall; but they naturally then require rest, and must have a long vacation. I say, therefore, that this is not the mode in which a great Department like the Admiralty ought to be managed. Instead of all this, my impression is that the First Lord ought to have a skilled and experienced head to each Department of the Administration, and also a deputy or lieutenant who would have a general superintendence over those heads of Departments, and who would further exercise a good influence in keeping the First Lord from committing serious errors and blunders. We have no Board in the other Departments of the Government besides the Admiralty. At the Colonial Office they have as grave, or even graver, questions to settle than the Admiralty have. At the Foreign Office the questions that have to be settled are graver still; and yet both of those great Departments do without a Board. And I may also remark that several Boards which formerly existed have all been, one by one, abolished — such, for instance, as the Navy Board, the Victualling Board, the India Board, and the Audit Board. Surely some credit is due to experience in these matters, and it is not to be supposed that we should have in all these cases abolished the Board system if that system had been a good one. I may likewise point out, as an objection to the management of such affairs by a Board, that this Board proceeds by very cumbrous methods. I find that from 1859 to 1866—a period of eight years—there were no fewer than 239 Orders in Council in relation to Admiralty matters. I have not been able to get any Return of the Orders in Council with reference to Admiralty matters since the year 1866 and the present time; but the number in the eight years previous was 239, as I have just stated. But even now the most trifling things can only be done by an Order in Council. For instance, on the 4th February, 1869, the offices filled by two foremen were abolished; and on the 29th April, 1870, the post of Assistant Accountant General was abolished.

  1457
  Well, then, I further object to a Board because there is every danger of us coming to a dead lock. Sir James Graham, in 1861, made use of these memorable words to a Committee of the Board of Admiralty—
  "I admit that the patent and the usage at the Admiralty are at variance, and if they were not at variance I do not think that the system of the Board of Admiralty would work at all."
  The right hon. Baronet the Member for Droitwich (Sir John Pakington) in answering a motion which I brought forward in 1867, said—
  "I have not in the least changed my opinions which I then expressed (before the Committee of 1861). I do still think that for the administration of a great Department a Board is a most clumsy machine. I still think that from the constitution of that Board there is an absence of that direct responsibility which ought to exist in a great Department, and I cannot say that I think the constitution of that machine is satisfactory or well adapted to the discharge of the important and difficult duties which devolve upon the authority who may be intrusted with the administration of the Navy."
  The right hon. Gentleman then added—
  "If I continue to hold the office which I now hold without giving any promise, I may say that so strong is my conviction that the constitution of the Board of Admiralty is not convenient to the public service or profitable to the public service, that probably I may hereafter consult my colleagues as to whether some change may not be desirable."
  The present permanent Secretary of the Admiralty, in his evidence before the Select Committee, said—
  "I object to any Board on the ground that responsibility gets spread over different members of the Board—you cannot fix the responsibility on any one individual."
  And my hon. Friend the Member for Montrose (Mr. Baxter) when asked by the chairman—"You would abolish the Board altogether?" Answered—"Certainly." "You would carry out the plan completely?" Answer—"Yes." My right hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract (Mr. Childers) evidently disliked the Board, but rather feared to go the whole length of abolishing it. Our ablest writers have condemned the Board as a system of management, and I may mention, in corroboration of this view, that since 1859 there have been no less than 33 Motions made in this House either for a Committee or a Commission, or expressing, in the form of a Resolution, a decided opinion against the system of managing the Admiralty by a Board.
  1458
  I hold that this Board system is wrong in theory and bad in practice; and I do trust that the House will put into form the general feeling that exists that it ought to be abolished. Before, perhaps, I put my first Resolution it would be convenient to the House that I should read the second, which states—
  "That the offices of Controller and Superintendent of Her Majesty's Dockyards be held by persons who have special knowledge of the duties they have to discharge, and that their tenure of office be not limited to a term of years."
  It may appear somewhat strange that I should ask the House for an opinion upon such a proposition as this; it appears almost ludicrous that I should say it is desirable that persons having important duties to discharge should have a knowledge of the matters with which they deal; but when we look at the duties the Controller has to discharge under the superintendence of the Board, and when we consider the regulations which the Admiralty has laid down for deciding on the qualifications of the person to fill this office, I think the House will acquit me of unnecessarily taking up its time in submitting such a proposition. Now, the Controller of the Navy has to settle the designs for ships; he has to see that the materials which are supplied to Her Majesty's dockyards are good; that the materials of ships built by contract are good; that the workmanship in the case of ships built by contract and in Her Majesty's yards is good; and the Chief Constructor is ordered constantly to consult the Controller on all matters. Now, in order to obtain an efficient Controller, the Admiralty laid down four regulations—First, they say, we will have a naval officer; we will exclude all shipwrights, naval architects, engineers, and civilians of all kinds. [Mr. BAXTER: Not necessarily.] I see the hon. Member for Montrose shakes his head; but I interpret the regulations to mean that a naval officer must be selected, and in confirmation of this we have the fact that a naval officer always has been selected of late years. I have understood that the regulation of the Lords of the Admiralty is that he must be a naval officer. At any rate, those who have been selected of late years to fill the post of Controller have been ignorant of the duties they have had to discharge, and in settling the designs of ships especially.

  1459
  Sir Baldwin Walter admitted before the Royal Commission of 1860 that though supposed to be responsible for ships he had to be guided by his officers; and Lord Clarence Paget, before the same Commission, said that the "Controller not being a practical man must necessarily be guided by the officers under him. Then Sir Spencer Robinson, before he was appointed Controller, had been for four years in the steam reserve, for one year, in 1860, he acted as a Royal Commissioner on the Commission on Dockyard Management; and he was Controller 10 years. But if he were asked the question, whether he was competent in respect of the settling of the designs of ships, he would say he was not. He was a man of great ability undoubtedly, of indomitable industry; and I do not think the public ever had a servant that worked harder for the public cause than did Sir Spencer Robinson. It is extremely probable, therefore, that towards the close of his career Sir Spencer Robinson had attained some knowledge of the duties he had to discharge; but, through circumstances into which I will not now enter, Sir Spencer Robinson was dismissed. Whether that dismissal was for the good of the public service may be questioned very fairly. However, another was appointed in Sir Spencer Robinson's place—Captain Hall. I have nothing to say against Captain Hall; but that he is fit for the office I will not assert. He has not had that experience in the position to which he is called corresponding with that gained by Sir Spencer Robinson, whose dismissal, I am afraid, was not for the good of the public service. From what I have said, it will be clear that the Admiralty on selecting a Controller require no special training, and no particular knowledge of the duties he has to fulfil. Now, the First Lord pursues a very different course in selecting officers to command a fleet. The promotion of naval officers is regulated by length of service or experience. A captain cannot take rank as an admiral unless he has commanded a ship seven years; he cannot take rank as an admiral unless he has been commanding afloat during the last seven years; and, except on the retired list, he cannot be an admiral if he has reached the age of 55. Now, these regulations are made in order to ensure something like efficiency. And Sir Sidney Dacres
  1460
  said, before the Committee of the Duke of Somerset, that "the fact of officers remaining long at the Admiralty destroys their usefulness as sea officers." But notwithstanding the Admiralty lays down these stringent regulations for the command of the Fleet, the same Board says that no experience, and no previous knowledge of the duties is necessary in a candidate for the post of Controller, who is to have the management of five large shipbuilding yards, besides a number of steam workshops and offices. The thing is monstrous and ridiculous. I may further point out how differently we act in many other cases. We have recently sent a Bill from this House to the Lords, in which we pledge the taxpayers of this country to pay something like £8,000,000 for the abolition of purchase, and by that Bill we shall also entail upon the taxpayers of the country a large annual sum for retirement. And why is that done? In order that we may get greater skill and greater aptitude amongst our military officers. Yet you care nothing about getting greater aptitude and skill and knowledge in the man who is to build your ships. Well, then, not satisfied with this, the Admiralty lays down another regulation. The regulation is that the Controller shall be appointed for five years. Now, there are two objections to that. One is that by appointing a man for a term of years you cannot dismiss him unless he does something very gross in the discharge of his duties. Moderate incompetence would not form a sufficient excuse to dismiss him. And when he has come to the end of his term he leaves, as a rule, and leaves just at the time when he is about beginning to know something of what he has to do. You send him adrift when he is getting useful to you, and take on another man to teach at the public expense. The thing is perfectly ridiculous. It is playing with the office, and nothing less. Besides this, we have another regulation, and this deals with the important matter of remuneration. The Board says that the man who is to discharge all these important duties is to have only £1,700 a-year. Why, you cannot get a competent man for that. It cannot be done at the price in the present state of the market. There are many railway managers now in receipt of upwards of £4,000, and even £5,000 a-year. There

  1461
  are locomotive superintendents receiving £4,000 and £5,000 a-year; and I say you cannot get a man to take the office of Controller at £1,700 a-year, and a pension of £540. In the matter of the pension, I may say that you give the Accountant General of the Court of Chancery £4,200 a-year pension, clearly showing that you act inconsistently in these things, and not for the public interest. It is true you may say we can get, and we do get, men to fill the office for £1,700 a-year; but would they be the right sort of men? You can get First Lords for less than £5,000 a-year. You could get them for £1,000 a-year. The number of First Lords available is enormously greater than the demand. You can pick them up by the dozen; but Controllers are not so easily found. You get a man at a price, and he may or may not be worth more. He ought to be worth more if he is competent, and there is something mean, contemptible, and shabby in a great nation like England paying their servants about a fourth of what they are worth. That is the third regulation then, and there is another. The Board holds the Controller responsible for the management of the five large dockyards, but does not give him the power of appointing his own superintendents, or managers, nor the master shipwrights. The Board keeps these bits of patronage to itself, and I say it is a great shame. It is not only unwise, but exceedingly ungenerous and unfair to hold a man responsible for certain work, and deny him the power of fulfilling that responsibility. Now, every word I have used with regard to the Controller applies equally to the superintendents. They also must be naval officers; they are appointed for terms of years, and have no power over their subordinates. As a rule, they know but little of their business. If they happen to be men of an active turn of mind they may do something, but if they chance to be the reverse they will let things go, as they usually do, without troubling themselves much how things go on. The result of all this is great apathy among the subordinates, and it is not surprising that under such a system there should be extravagance and inefficiency. We have altered, to some extent, one portion of the cost of the building of ships. We get our materials cheaper; we get them now, I believe, at the market price;
  1462
  but management has much to do with the cost, and the management remains pretty much as it was. At any rate, that is the opinion of the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil. In his opinion, we have certainly not much improved, for in March 1870, he stated in his place in this House that he had been to a dockyard not far from his own works, and greater skulking and greater waste he had never seen in his life. But I am going to quote upon this point an authority of much greater weight than an hon. Member of this House. I am about to quote from a Memorandum put before the Lords of the Admiralty by Sir Spencer Robinson in 1867. He says—
  "The very title of the officer shows the vicious and faulty arrangement of the whole administration. He is called a superintendent, he ought to be a manager. For what is he responsible? He is only the vehicle through which orders pass to the several heads of departments. A work which ought to have been done for £10,000 cost £16,000; he is not called on to account for this excess; he has no responsibility on account of it. … . If accounts are not accurately rendered, if undue delay takes place in preparing them, he is not responsible. … . The orders and letters addressed to him say, in terms, you are to direct the officers; you are to call upon the officers; you are to inform the officers. There is no distinct and direct responsibility for anything, either done or left undone, upon him so long as he duly transmits the memoranda from the Admiralty, the Lords, the Secretary, the Controller .… he has no personal and individual responsibility to the board of management as a whole, or to its numerous component parts, for bad work, for waste of money, for unthrift, for loss of time, or general negligence. He is equally without complete control over those through whose instrumentality he professes to work; he cannot promote . … he is chocked by antiquated instructions. … . The pay and promotion of workmen, and all the regulations concerning them, are taken out of his hands. He is distinctly a superintendent, and what is wanted is a manager. Is it wonderful that, with such an organization, the working of the dockyards is not satisfactory? If there were not waste, if there were not mismanagement, it would be a miracle."
  [Mr. GOSCHEN: What is the date of that?] 1867; but I have consulted Sir Spencer Robinson; I have read to him what I have read to the House; and, as I understood Sir Spencer Robinson, every word is true now. Further, he agreed with me as to the inexpediency of the present arrangement, under which no civilian can be superintendent of a dockyard. I am authorized by both Sir Spencer Robinson and Mr. Reed to say they both thoroughly concur in the opi-

  1463
  nions I have expressed with regard to the management of the dockyards. I know it may be said there are things which naval officers alone can do. If there are, let naval men be employed to do those things. My Resolution does not shut out naval officers; it only says let us have the best men, whether they are naval officers or civilians. Formerly it was said it was impossible to manage a hospital except by means of a naval officer; but that objection is now put aside, and a hospital may be managed by a surgeon without a naval officer. It was formerly held that a Fleet could not be provisioned unless we had a naval superintendent at each victualling yard. We have ceased to have that; and yet, according to my hon. Friend the Member for Montrose (Mr. Baxter), the Fleet was never provisioned more quickly and completely than on a late occasion; and he is perfectly satisfied it will be in the future. I hold that the present system not only engenders extravagance, but that it is inevitable it should also involve inefficiency. I ask, whether there is any confidence in our shipbuilding department? Will any hon. Member get up and say that the state of things is satisfactory as regards the building of our ships? What is our position? We have a Controller just appointed who knows but little of his business. ["Oh, oh!] That is my opinion; he knows but little of his business—little about the building of ships. We have no Chief Constructor; we have not had for more than a year. The Admiralty are so extremely fond of a Board that they have put the office of Chief Constructor into commission. There are now three clerks—I am not sure whether there are not five—but, at any rate, I am quite certain there are three who are now filling the office of Chief Constructor; and these three clerks, who are now settling the designs for ships for the Royal Navy of England, are paid the munificent salaries of £600 a-year each. Then, if you go to the dockyards, you have superintendents who know nothing whatever about the business of shipbuilding. And this is your arrangement for getting the best type of ships! A little light has recently been thrown upon this matter. In "another place," a few days ago, something was said upon this question; and an Admiralty official, Lord Camperdown, said—
  1464
  "As to shipbuilding, a naval officer superintended the construction of ships, consulting the First Lord, who in turn consulted the First Naval Lord."
  And this is the arrangement by which we are to get a proper type of ship! We have now been discussing for three or four months Army re-organization; and we have voted away millions for Army re-organization—that is, for our second line of defence; but we have not given five minutes consideration to the question of the construction of our ships—our first line of defence seems to be nothing compared with Army re-organization. What I contend for is simply this—Whatever branch of business we have to manage we ought to get competent men. I do not care so much whether we have a Board or a single Minister of State, provided we have in the several branches of Admiralty business, skilled, experienced, and competent men—in the strict sense of the term, competent. By competent I do not mean merely men of great ability, like the First Lord. I should say that even the Lord Chancellor of England is not fit to settle the designs for ships, nor to manage a dockyard. By competent men I mean men who know their business, and neither more nor less; and I hold that, until you get competent men, you will never have in Admiralty management anything but vaccillation, extravagance, and inefficiency. I know not what course the First Lord may now take. He may meet me as the right hon. Baronet the Member for Droitwich (Sir John Pakington) did in 1867. He may, in accordance with the example of other of his predecessors, defend everything as it is, believing that it is best. I have seen abuses defended by the very men who have afterwards come forward to reform them; and I remember, in 1868, I moved for a Committee to make scientific inquiry into the construction of our ships of war. I was seconded most ably by the practical Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Samuda). That Motion was opposed by the then officials, and by the late officials of the Admiralty; and it was opposed on the ground that to adopt my Motion would be a reflection upon those eminent men—Sir Spencer Robinson and Mr. Reed—and on the further ground that it would relieve the Admiralty from the responsibility which ought to attach to them. In consequence

  1465
  of the weight of official influence that Motion was rejected; but nearly all the Members for large constituencies voted with me, and the Motion was defeated by the narrow majority of 10. But that which was opposed in 1868 was done in 1870, when a Committee was appointed to inquire into the designs of ships of war that had been built, and that Committee is now sitting. Therefore, whatever ground the First Lord may take, I am hopeful that the Board of Admiralty cannot long continue, and I am also hopeful that we shall obtain competent men to fill places of trust and responsibility. The hon. Member concluded by moving his Resolutions.
  MR. T. BRASSEY, in seconding the Motion, said, the first Resolution was not so absolutely incontrovertible as the second. It appeared that that which was the great objection to a Board, the want of individual responsibility, had been to a great extent overcome by practice, for it had been found necessary to give the First Lord predominant influence to such an extent that he must be regarded as exclusively responsible for the policy of the Admiralty, and therefore a usage had been established which differed from the theoretical constitution of the Department, and theoretical difficulties had been overcome by common sense and discretion. Recent changes at the Admiralty seemed to offer an opportunity for re-modelling the Department and bringing its theoretical constitution into harmony with accepted usage. The evidence of the Duke of Somerset before the Committee of 1861 supported the argument that the usage was different from the theory. The constitution and practical working of the Board might be fairly tested by the results of its administration during the last quarter of a century; and, to take one subject, its failure to deal effectually and completely with the manning of the Navy had recently been demonstrated. Professional prejudice, which sometimes marred the judgment of naval men, had had a disastrous effect in the matter of manning the Navy, and it had, he feared, prevented the enlistment of fishermen in the Reserve, notwithstanding that those men would form the best possible reserve for the defence of the coast. A tendency to neglect the efficiency of the service and to regard economy in naval administration had been exhibited in
  1466
  too many instances by the Board of Admiralty, an illustration of which had been afforded by the Return recently obtained by the hon. Member for Liverpool (Mr. Graves) relating to the engines recently ordered for the service of the Navy. During the past year the total horse-power of marine engines ordered was 4,760; but of these engines to the extent of only 970 horse-power were constructed on the most approved scientific principles. Compound engines effected a saving of 30 or 40 per cent as compared with the former consumption of fuel. The Vote for fuel for the Navy amounted this year to £71,000, and a saving of 30 per cent in that sum would be a very important economy, besides adding greatly to the efficiency of our vessels of war, as it would allow a steam ship which could now only carry four days' consumption of coals to carry six days' consumption, and that difference might sometimes lead to important results in the conduct of maritime war. Such an obvious neglect to make use of recent inventions would not, he contended, have been shown by a Board of men who were appointed to conduct mercantile matters. There had been a tendency shown by the Board to oppose naval reform on many professional questions. There had long been a controversy in the Navy as to the employment of a special class of officers for navigation, and the recent disaster which had occurred to the Agincourt in the Bay of Gibraltar showed that there might be some improvement in the system now in force for the navigation of Her Majesty's ships. The plan of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Pontefract (Mr. Childers) needed some modification, especially as to investing the office of First Lord with a more definite supremacy. It had been said that railway and other companies were always managed by Boards, and that circumstance was adduced as evidence of the fitness of Boards to discharge administrative duties; but it ought not to be forgotten that to a great extent the management of such companies was concentrated in the hands of the chairman, and the decision of any important matter was usually left to him and one or two of the leading members. The reform of the Admiralty Department would have been more complete if the plan of government by a Board had been abandoned

  1467
  and a competent naval staff had been created in order to carry on the business and to afford the necessary advice to the First Lord, for any attempt to dispense with that advice must cause serious disaster. On such a naval staff there would be an officer as commander-in-chief, under whose direction the personnel of the Navy would be governed, and under him there would be an admiral and a third officer to give the necessary advice. As regarded the matériel there should be a Chief Constructor and departments charged with the supervision of stores and gunnery. An interesting Report was published not long ago by the Secretary of the United States Navy, which Report was unfavourable to the designs, construction, and condition of the United States Navy. And that state of things was attributed to the neglect which had too long prevailed in the naval administration of the United States to make use of professional advice. The experience of the foreign navy went to establish the wisdom of the principle formerly adopted by the administration of this country, which had always recognized the necessity of following professional advice on all professional questions. He should have been glad if much of the talent that was now engaged in the merchant service had been attracted into the Royal Navy, which would in that case have led rather than have followed in naval affairs. Some objection had been raised to the patent under which the Board of Admiralty was constituted; but that was sufficiently answered by Mr. Sidney Herbert's remark that—
  "Whatever the patent might be, the Minister who held the purse-strings and represented the Department in the House of Commons would always have the power in his hands."
  The recent history of the Board of Admiralty proved that a too hasty attempt had been made to alter the organization of a long-established department, and it was to be regretted that so many experienced officers had left the public service in so short a space of time. Another error that had been committed was making the Department depend too exclusively upon the First Lord, which was the more objectionable on account of the frequent changes in office which our Parliamentary system involved, and under such a plan it was impossible that our affairs could prosper. He trusted
  1468
  that in the statement about to be made by his right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty they would find that most incontrovertible proposition laid down, that when an officer had been found adequate to the duties imposed on him, he should not be removed in obedience to a red-tape rule, involving a change of office within a fixed term of years.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That, in the opinion of this House, it is desirable that the Board of Admiralty be discontinued; and that the offices of Controller and Superintendent of Her Majesty's Dockyards be held by persons who have special knowledge of the duties they have to discharge, and that their tenure of office be not limited to a term of years."—(Mr. Seely.)
  MR. GOSCHENsaid, he had had several successions of acute regret as he listened to the speech of his hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Mr. Seely). He was sorry that his hon. Friend, in the course of his speech, should not have given more prominence to the very great changes which had been made in the Admiralty — changes, too, which had been in a certain sense made in the direction which he himself had advocated. He was also sorry that the speech had not been delivered in "another place," in reply to the criticisms on the conduct of his right hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract (Mr. Childers), and that his hon. Friend should have made remarks calculated to wound the feelings of many efficient public servants. Nothing, he felt sure, could have been further from the intention of his hon. Friend; but in what he said, he did much to depreciate the merits of some who had performed efficient public service. His hon. Friend, for instance, had accused the Admiralty of placing in the position of Controller of the Navy, Captain Hall, a gentleman who, according to the assertion of his hon. Friend, possessed no special knowledge whatever. But the fact was, that Captain Hall had for years occupied the post of Dockyard Superintendent, and had superintended the building of many of our large ships. He had given eminent proof of his qualifications for years past, and it was exactly for the possession of this special knowledge that Captain Hall had been selected. Again, his hon. Friend had, in his opinion, most unfairly described the gentlemen who

  1469
  performed the duties of Chief Constructor of the Navy as mere clerks. These gentlemen were men of very great ability—two of them particularly were men of considerable genius as shipbuilders—but the description given by his hon. Friend would leave the public to believe that they were unfitted for the performance of the duties which were attached to the offices they filled. It was true these gentlemen were working at comparatively moderate salaries; but he would venture to assert that they were thoroughly efficient public servants, and not only capable, but worthy of filling the posts which they occupied. Then he regretted that his hon. Friend, whom he was glad again to welcome as a critic of the Admiralty, had failed during the last two or three years to assist the Department with his criticism. His right hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract (Mr. Childers) had, during that time, made some very important changes—changes which had been much criticised by the Press and throughout the country; but in that criticism his hon. Friend had had no share. His hon. Friend did not allude to the fact that there was at present sitting a Committee of Designs who were examining that very important question—the construction of our ships. He (Mr. Goschen) thought it would be wiser to suspend any appointment to the post of Chief Constructor of the Navy until that Committee had reported. And he must confess his surprise, too, at the fact that his hon. Friend had not in any way discussed the celebrated Order in Council, by which so many of these changes had been effected. He had fancied, from the terms of the Motion which had been submitted to the House, that his hon. Friend had intended referring to some of the results of these changes; but he had not even mentioned the fact that those changes had entirely altered the constitution of the Board of Admiralty. His right hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract had established to a degree previously unknown, or at least had endeavoured to do so, the personal responsibility of the First Lord of the Admiralty. It was one of the cardinal points in his right hon. Friend's scheme, and one in which he entirely concurred, that the First Lord of the Admiralty should not avail himself of the Board to relieve himself of his personal responsibility. His hon. Friend
  1470
  had quoted from a Paper written by Sir Spencer Robinson, 1867, as if it had described the present state of things; whereas it described a state of things antecedent to the changes which had taken place. In asking his hon. Friend for the date of that Paper, he understood his hon. Friend to say, that he know from Sir Spencer Robinson that it described the existing state of things. But anyone who had read it would see that that able public servant referred to matters which had been materially improved within the last two or three years, and to circumlocutions which no longer existed. His hon. Friend seemed to attribute every shortcoming in the Navy to the presence of the Board. He supposed his hon. Friend to mean that if the Board had been abolished our sailors would not have been found serving in Australia, and that the dissatisfaction which existed among the officers was due to the fact that the naval element of the Board had not been abolished. Now, he (Mr. Goschen) had understood that the great complaint of the naval officers was that the naval element was not strong enough; but he thought that objection had been sufficiently answered by the Seconder of the Motion. The hon. Member for Lincoln had suggested that if there had been no Board we should have been able to recruit a larger number of seamen than we had done. [Mr. SEELY said, that was not the purport of his remarks.] He understood that to be the substance of his hon. Friend's remarks in pointing out the causes of the short supply of seamen. But his hon. Friend the Member for Hastings (Mr. Brassey) went further, and appeared to think that if there had been no Board of Admiralty everything would have gone right. Still, the speech of his hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln was, he thought, partially answered by the speech of his hon. Friend the Member for Hastings, who had pointed out that the real question was, in what form could the best professional advice be secured to the Board of Admiralty? A good deal had been said about the necessity of having special knowledge. Now, he concurred in so much of what had been said that he did not contend that the Board ought to be used simply for the purpose of relieving the First Lord of the Admiralty of any portion of the responsibility properly belonging to

  1471
  him. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Lincoln had alluded to the frequent changes in the person of the First Lord, and his consequent want of experience of the special duties with which he was charged. That was rather an argument in favour of than against a Board, because if the First Lord was without special knowledge he must look for high professional advice, and ascertain what were the opinions of the profession. The administration of the Admiralty was not the administration of a manufacturing department, and could not be compared with the administration of the Peninsular and Oriental Company, and the North-western Railway Company. But these large establishments were managed by Boards, just as the Admiralty was managed by a Board, and he therefore did not see the force of the argument of his hon. Friend. The Admiralty had to deal with men and officers as well as the construction of ships. With regard to the question of economy and efficiency, and the construction of ships, he agreed with his hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln. They must be constructed in the cheapest manner compatible with efficiency, and according to the rules of commerce as far as possible; but it should be borne in mind that in dealing with the personnel of our Fleets there were hundreds of questions brought under the notice of the First Lord of the Admiralty and his colleagues which would not require consideration by a private firm. The Lords of the Admiralty were responsible, not to themselves only, but also to Parliament and the country, their conduct being regulated by statutes of the realm, and this constituted an enormous difference between them and private employers. Speaking of the appointment of subordinates by the Controller of the Navy, his hon. Friend had said it was a shame to hold him responsible without giving him the patronage; but this was precisely what his hon. Friend proposed to do with respect to the First Lord of the Admiralty and his colleagues. Now, the Lords of the Admiralty felt that they were responsible to the House for every shilling they spent, and that they could not shift the responsibility on to their subordinates as the head of a private manufacturing establishment could. For example, he should certainly be at once questioned in the House if some distinguished naval
  1472
  officer had his salary doubled, while the salaries of the other officers were not increased, and here he might remark that the First Lord of the Admiralty spent much of his time in preparing himself for the frequent interpellations of Members of Parliament, who examined and cross-examined him on all kinds of subjects connected with his administration. He thought that his right hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract had rendered most eminent services to the country by introducing to a great extent the commercial element in the purchase of stores, and all the departments of the Admiralty where it could be properly applied. He had been attacked for having done so, but could be defended on every point, and it could be shown that very few public servants had rendered more eminent services to the country. He entirely concurred in the spirit of the hon. Member for Lincoln's remarks when he spoke of the responsibility of the First Lord, and if the abolition of the Board simply meant the establishment of that responsibility no great difficulty would be experienced. After all, this was a question as to the best plan for securing that professional advice of the highest kind which everybody admitted to be necessary. He understood the hon. Member for Lincoln to say that it could be done by the appointment of permanent officers specially acquainted with the Department. He wished, however, to ask whether it would be possible to secure the services on such terms of the most distinguished of the admirals—of men who had risen to the highest honours of the profession? Could such men be asked to join the Admiralty in the position of permanent officers in the subordinate posts which the hon. Member proposed to assign to them? Every Member of the House would agree that when they had to deal with such important questions as the discipline of the Fleet and the contentment of the officers and the general attraction of the service, they ought to be able to take on such points the opinion of the most distinguished men of the profession. It had been suggested, indeed, that when he had a special difficulty to meet he should write to some distinguished admiral to ask him to call upon him; but he ventured to think that that would not be a satisfactory method of proceeding. They wanted more than that; they required re-

  1473
  sponsible advice, given to them by men who were responsible for it. He did not for a moment wish to weaken the responsibility of the First Lord when he said that; but it must be borne in mind that they required advice that was not only good in itself but which would carry weight with those who would be affected by it. If they abolished the Board of Admiralty to-morrow, they would considerably weaken the confidences felt in the Admiralty by the service generally; because the service liked to know that, side by side with the responsible Minister, there were others quite conversant with the details of the profession, and who gave advice under a sense of responsibility. The issue before the House was this—Was a Board — with a certain amount of modification to be admitted—the best system, or could a better one be devised. For Executive purposes he believed a Board to be a very bad machinery; for consulting purposes he believed it to be necessary, when the head of the Department was necessarily ignorant of certain professional points. Since the reforms introduced by his right hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract the business of the Admiralty had been managed departmentally, and the executive functions of the Board had ceased. The business was now distributed among the different Lords. The First Naval Lord was responsible for the personnel, the Third Lord for the matériel, and the Civil Lord for a number of matters, such as pensions, while the Junior Naval Lord assisted the First Naval Lord in his duties in reference to the personnel of the Navy. The hon. Member for Lincoln had not put the case quite fairly when he suggested that the Civil Lord of the Admiralty was intrusted with a portion of the naval duties; the truth was that the Naval Lord dealt departmentally with naval matters, and the Civil and Financial Lords with the civil and financial parts of business. That was the great change which had been introduced by his right hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract (Mr. Childers.) His right hon. Friend had been attacked on the ground that he had done away with the opportunity of the Lords meeting together and consulting on the business of the Admiralty; but he was prepared to maintain that the system of individual responsibility to which the House attached the highest importance had been
  1474
  carried out. Her Majesty's Government were considering at the present moment what alterations it might be desirable to introduce into the existing system. His right hon. Friend had always dealt frankly with the House, and had never concealed the fact that the reforms he introduced were progressive, and that it was necessary to proceed tentatively. But it was unjust to argue that they should now be altered or abolished because they had not fulfilled all the expectations that had been formed of them. Sufficient time had not yet elapsed to test their full efficiency. Many of the reforms that had been at first most vigorously attacked were now admitted to be effectual by all persons, and he did not think that it would be right in him, after he had been only three months in office, to submit to his colleagues plans for proposing important alterations in the other reforms of his right hon. Friend, and which his right hon. Friend had elaborated with great care and labour. He must say that he thought rather hard justice had been dealt out to his right hon. Friend, who had introduced the new system under some circumstances of great difficulty arising out of personal matters, and who was now unable to be present to defend his work. He appealed to those hon. Gentlemen especially who had approved these changes when they were first introduced to give them a fair trial. The members of the Admiralty were now working harmoniously together, and as long as that was the case it mattered very little whether the Admiralty was called a Council or a Board. As to the second Resolution—
  "That the offices of Controller and Superintendent of Her Majesty's Dockyards be held by persons who have special knowledge of the duties they have to discharge, and that their tenure of office be not limited to a term of years,"
  he wished to say that the Government were always anxious to secure persons with a special knowledge of the duties they had to discharge. He denied that men without special knowledge had been appointed. Did his hon. Friend mean that they should take the manager of a private firm—for instance, that of his hon. Friend the Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Samuda) — receiving £2,000 a-year, and offer him £3,000 to assume the management of our dockyards? He maintained that the best manager of a private firm might not be

  1475
  the best for a public dockyard, the condition of things in each was so different. He was perfectly ready to admit that if a civilian who was better than a naval officer could be secured for the post he should be taken. He was not aware that there was any regulation that a superintendent should be a naval man. It had been the practice that he should, but there was no regulation to that effect, and the naval men who had filled the office had been selected from the belief of their special administrative capacity. They took one officer and gave him the command of a ship because he seemed to have the qualities of a good commander, and they took another for the management of the dockyards because he possessed administrative capacity and understood shipbuilding and the management of stores. It was quite fair that this should be an open question. If we had got naval men who, in regard to business capacity, were equal to civilians, his hon. Friend himself would hardly say that they should not be appointed. The Controller of the Navy might be a civilian—there was nothing to prevent it—and the remarks which he had made with regard to the superintendent held good with respect to the Controller also. If a man in every respect capable of being a Controller were found he might be appointed to the office whether he was a civilian or a naval man. But there were great advantages in having naval men appointed if they fell in with the civilian view of naval administration, which in many cases was essential to the proper discharge of the duties. Many naval men were of great experience, their own lives and the lives of others under them depended on the efficiency of the Fleet, they were deeply interested in the matter, and if they were as capable as others there were some advantages in employing them. He would be sorry to assent to any Motion requiring that the Controller of the Navy should always be a naval man or that he should always be a civilian; but he had no objection to say that he should always have special fitness for the office. There were many gallant Admirals who had devoted themselves to the study of shipbuilding and had great knowledge of the subject, and what he wished to impress upon the House was that we should not get into the habit of setting the civilian element against the naval, but admit the
  1476
  value of both. While anxious for the efficient administration of naval affairs, it was of the greatest importance that we should not do anything which should lead naval men to think that their views in those matters were entirely ignored. He trusted that the House of Commons would maintain at any cost that the Navy should always be administered from a civilian point of view. But while that was so, it was of great importance that the confidence of the Navy should be secured. Sir Spencer Robinson, and other gallant Admirals, had been able to appreciate the civilian point of view, and to render services which the House of Commons valued most highly. He trusted his hon. Friend would not press his Motion to a division, or ask the House to abolish a system which had worked well without saying what was to be put in its place. As regarded the second part of the Motion, it was a truism to say that only persons having special knowledge should be appointed.
  MR. CORRYsaid, that he had heard only a very small portion of the debate, but he understood that the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty had stated in the course of his remarks that the late First Lord had introduced the system of his own complete responsibility, and that former First Lords had been too much guided in their decisions by their Boards. Now he, on the contrary, maintained that the late First Lord had done more to undermine the individual responsibility of the First Lord than anyone who had previously filled the office. Although that right hon. Gentleman had brought forward all his changes with the idea of vesting all responsibility in the First Lord, the moment a great calamity happened—the moment the Captain went down—he immediately sought to relieve his own shoulders from all the weight of responsibility and to throw it on his subordinates. Under the former system all the circumstances connected with the Captain, and her stability, would have been discussed at the Board of Admiralty in the presence of the First Lord, who would have heard the opinions of his four naval colleagues, and could not have exonerated himself from the responsibility. There was no point upon which the late Sir James Graham insisted more constantly than that the First Lord of the Admiralty was entirely responsible. If he

  1477
  might be allowed to do so, he would illustrate the matter by his own case. When he was appointed First Lord of the Admiralty in 1867, the programme of the year had been determined by his predecessor, his right hon. Friend the Member for Droitwich (Sir John Pakington). In that programme provision was made for the building of a large frigate—a second Inconstant. For various reasons upon which he need not now enter, he decided upon setting aside the plan of his predecessor, and building a lighter class of vessel, the Volage, whereby he obtained the means of building an additional iron-clad. That was done by him on his own responsibility, although he had the assistance of the same Board of naval advisers as his right hon. Friend. He gave that instance to show that the responsibility of the First Lord under the old system was complete. He would now say a few words as to the abolition of the Board of Admiralty, which was the main proposition of the hon. Member for Lincoln. He thought the whole of the evidence taken before the Committee, presided over by the Duke of Somerset, pointed to the absolute necessity of a consultative Board to advise the First Lord of the Admiralty, and a great part of the admitted evils of the new system was attributable to the discontinuance of such a Council. He should be sorry, more especially in the absence of the right hon. Member for Pontefract, to say anything which might cause him pain, but he believed that under the old system the Captain would not have been lost. Under the old system such information would have been given to the First Lord of the Admiralty by his naval colleagues as would have led to such a degree of caution as would have avoided that great disaster. Under the present system the First Lord of the Admiralty was the only person cognizant of the business of every department, and the other Lords were, by the Order in Council of 1869, reduced to the position of mere heads of departments. Under the old system every member of the Board knew perfectly well what was the whole policy of the Board, and when one was absent another was thoroughly competent to undertake his duties. That advantage had been entirely lost under the new system. To those who had had experience of Admiralty administration the idea of doing away with a Board was absurd. The
  1478
  government of the Navy required special knowledge which no civilian could have. He could not understand how these affairs could be carried on in an efficient manner without a Board, not only advising the First Lord, but undertaking his duties in his absence. He was very glad to hear that the First Lord of the Admiralty had under consideration certain reforms of the present system, because he (Mr. Corry) was sure that, if it was allowed to continue, they would come to grief, and indeed they had come to grief enough already. That was a question with which he would deal on a future occasion. With regard to the question raised by the hon. Member for Lincoln as to the superintendence of dockyards, anyone acquainted with the subject knew that the superintendent of a dockyard had not merely to superintend the repair and building of ships, the repair of engines, and matters of that description, but that one of his chief duties was to make suggestions to the Admiralty respecting rigging, armament, the fitting of magazines, and other such subjects—in short to see that everything was done to make the vessels fitted under their superintendence thoroughly efficient as vessels of war. No civilian could be competent to perform these duties, but the superintendents of dockyards being naval officers of experience, were able to give very useful advice to the Admiralty in these respects. Having had 30 years' experience of these matters he knew that there was no jobbing in these appointments, and that these officers were invariably chosen for their efficiency. He hoped, therefore, that the First Lord of the Admiralty would not give way to the cry for appointing civilians to such posts. As to the Controller of the Navy, he should be disposed to agree with Sir Frederick Grey, and some other witnesses before the Duke of Somerset's Committee, and to think that the office might be abolished, and the construction department placed under a civilian under the old title of surveyor with a Lord of the Admiralty having the general superintendence of the dockyards. Without pledging himself to that view, however, he thought improvements might be made in the present arrangement. He earnestly hoped that the Motion for the abolition of the Board of Admiralty would not be adopted.
  MR. SAMUDA, after speaking of the necessity for obtaining scientific advice outside the Admiralty, remarked that under the system which existed before the late First Lord (Mr. Childers) went into office, the Controller of the Navy was an officer of the Board, and not a Lord of the Admiralty; and in the position of officer he was compelled to submit to the Lords of the Admiralty all the operations which were passing in his Department, with such Minutes as he and the Chief Constructor thought it advisable to give to the Admiralty to enable them to form a judgment as to the course they should take. If that same system had been persevered in, their reports in reference to the Captain would have been brought before the Board of Admiralty in its consultative form; and if their opinion had been brought before an independent Board, he wanted to know whether any independent Board would have allowed the Captain to go to sea? It was perfectly clear that, whatever advantages were being derived from the change, the whole power of consultation in that Board was destroyed. The Board had been reduced to a number of separate heads of departments, and the First Lord of the Admiralty, by consulting any one, might resist the advice of the Board and fall into the most serious error, because it was absolutely impossible that from his own amount of knowledge he could sift any evidence put before him by the head of the Department. On reading the Resolution of the hon. Member for Lincoln he should have conceived that it meant that it was desirable the present Board of Admiralty should be discontinued. But it appeared to him that the Board had already been discontinued; the present Board, as a Board, did not exist. The second part of the hon. Member's Resolution was to the effect that the offices of Controller, and also of Superintendent of Her Majesty's Dockyards, should be held by persons who had special knowledge of the duties they had to discharge, and that their tenure of office should not be limited to a term of years; but he was not prepared to admit, as a general rule, that those who occupied the offices in question did not possess that special knowledge. As to the evidence given at various times before various Committees by Sir Spencer Robinson, he quite agreed
  1480
  that whoever was placed in the position of head of the shipbuilding department should have the control of the purchase of materials as well as the distributing of the materials; but that arrangement appeared to have been entirely upset by the late First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. Childers). He admitted that if the arrangements of the Admiralty were less departmental and exclusive, and if those who administered its affairs were to avail themselves of the knowledge to be found among persons acquainted with naval matters outside the range of Admiralty officials, the result would be greatly to the advantage of this Department of the State; but for the reasons that he had already referred to he could not support the views or the Motion of the hon. Member for Lincoln.
  SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONEexpressed his confidence that the right hon. Gentleman now at the head of the Admiralty would avoid the errors which his predecessor in office had committed. The former Admiralty administration had committed most desperate mistakes, which had culminated in a catastrophe which had not happened to the British Navy since the loss of the Blenheim in 1807. It was clear that catastrophe was imminent before the Captain went to sea; and had not the Board of Admiralty been practically abolished before that event occurred she would never have been permitted to sail. The loss of that ship and that ship's company lay at the door of the Government of the country. They could not escape from it; and they could not escape from the duty imposed upon them of providing for the widows and orphans who had been left desolate in consequence of that unhappy accident. The country felt so strongly that this duty lay upon the Government that it had been found impossible to raise the money by public, subscription which was necessary in order to support those who had been dependent upon the seamen who went down in that vessel. It therefore became the duty of the Government, as men of honour, to supplement the miserably inadequate fund subscribed for the widows and orphans of the men who were lost in that ill-fated ship. He, for one, objected to Gentlemen who knew nothing at all about the Navy coming forward as Navy reformers, economists, and financiers. They had had a great deal too much of that; they had

  1481
  had Committees on Accounts, and Admiralty Commissions and Committees on all sorts of matters originated by men who knew nothing about a ship, and the consequence had been to disorganize the British Navy, and do it more harm than could be inflicted by our bitterest enemy. They had seen a most abominable system of jobbery introduced. Under the auspices of the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Baxter), a large quantity of stocking feet were sold, besides numberless other articles, which on the breaking out of the late war they tried to buy back again at a considerable advance in price. They had sold the catblock of the Royal George, which, he had himself tried to buy, but an old Jew asked him £10 for it, though probably he himself had not paid more than 10 s. for it. They also sold Deptford Dockyard, and likewise set to work to negotiate the transport of our troops through private agencies. That, however, he understood, had broken down, like the other operations of the last Board of Admiralty, and like that Board itself. His only objection to the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Goschen) was that he identified himself with his predecessor, who had disgusted the service and brought it to the lowest ebb. There was no analogy whatever between a commercial or private manufacturing firm and the naval establishments of this great country, which must be capable of easy expansion and contraction as circumstances demanded. The House was employed day after day in discussing Bills which had little chance of passing, and the real business of the country was postponed till the month of August, when everybody would be tired out and disgusted with the course of one of the most dreary and fruitless Sessions ever known.
  MR. KINNAIRDasked whether any private establishment would thrive if the persons at its head were liable to be constantly changed as was the case at the Admiralty? One Admiral of the Fleet had lived to see 24 successive First Lords appointed, and in the last five years they had had five First Lords. His right hon. Friend (Mr. Goschen) had apologized because he had been only three months at the Admiralty, and it was not to be expected that a gentleman under such circumstances could easily make himself master of all the important
  1482
  and difficult questions connected with naval administration. The interests of the service ought not to be sacrificed to Parliamentary convenience, and he should vote for the Motion of his hon. Friend (Mr. Seely) as a protest against a system which was most defective and had become almost ridiculous.
  MR. SEELY: I wish to explain that I referred in the course of my remarks to a Memorandum by Sir Spencer Robinson, dated 1867; and I think a reference to that Memorandum will show that the remarks I quoted are strictly applicable, to the best of my knowledge and belief. The remarks apply to the office of superintendent, and no change has been made since that time. With regard to the Board of Admiralty being a political machine, I may remark that in one sense it may be, but in another it is not. The Board of Admiralty does not determine what the force of the Navy shall be; the Board of Admiralty is simply a department for giving us a proper supply of officers and men and ships. It is a mere matter of business, and I hold that is what the House should thoroughly understand. What I want to impress upon the House is that it is the duty of the First Lord to take care that the most competent men are intrusted with the duty of obtaining those officers, those men, and those ships, and to give inducements to those officers to get a sufficient supply of seamen, and to let the ships be of the best description.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes 30; Noes 110: Majority 80.

LEGAL EDUCATION—RESOLUTIONS.
SIR ROUNDELL PALMERin rising to move the following Resolutions:—

"1. That, in the opinion of this House, it is desirable that a General School of Law should be established in the Metropolis, in the government of which the different brunches of the legal profession in England may be suitably represented; and that, after the establishment thereof, no person should be admitted to practise in any branch of the legal profession, either at or below the Bar, or as an attorney or solicitor in England, without a certificate of proficiency in the study of Law, granted after proper examinations by such General School of Law.

"2. That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that Her Majesty may be graciously pleased to take into consideration the

1483
expediency of establishing and incorporating under Her Majesty's Royal Charter, a General School of Law in the Metropolis, in the government of which the different branches of the legal profession in England may be suitably represented; and assuring Her Majesty that if it shall appear to Her Majesty to be expedient to provide by such Charter that, after the time when such General School shall be fully established, no person shall be admitted to practise in any branch of the legal profession, either at or below the Bar, or as an attorney or solicitor in England, without a certificate of proficiency in the study of the Law, granted after proper examinations by such General School of Law, this House will be prepared to concur in such legislation as may be requisite to enable Her Majesty so to do."

said: *Sir, I hope the House will believe that I am not influenced by any mere professional prepossession or prejudice when I speak of the law of this country as a matter of the most vital importance to all our institutions and all our interests, and when I assert that a sound system of education in the law is a subject most worthy of the attention of this House. And, certainly, when it is remembered how long it is since this House gave its attention to that subject, and how great the defects of the existing system are, it is rather a cause of surprise that the matter should have been left unsettled until now, than that I should be bringing it to the notice of the House at the present moment. What is the true character of the prevailing system of legal education in England? When the high reputation and attainments of the many great men who have adorned the profession are considered, when the great power which the profession has always exercised in the State is borne in mind, together with the important duties which its members are called upon to discharge, it might naturally be supposed that the system of legal education which has produced such men must in itself be of a very excellent kind. And, yet, if there is one point upon which public opinion may be said to be almost unanimous, it is that legal education is, and has long been, in a very unsatisfactory condition. Ages ago Chief Justices spoke of our Inns of Court as a legal University, and not only was there a strong desire to establish in them an efficient school of law, but they were provided with large resources and means, intended to produce great results. The whole of that system has fallen into a state of decay, and within the recollection of those now living it is no untrue description of our law studies to say that they have
1484
been unscientific, unsystematic, desultory, and empirical. A young man comes from school or from the University—or wherever else he has received his general education—well prepared, I will suppose, and grounded in general elementary knowledge. He then endeavours to qualify himself for the legal profession by seeing practice—a very good thing in its way, if accompanied by the acquirement of a solid, scientific, and systematic knowledge of the principles of jurisprudence and the history of the law. Instead of that, however, no broad, no scientific foundation is laid. He studies text-books, wades through undigested and often questionable decisions of the present day and of former days, as they are reported in the voluminous books of cases; he goes into the chambers of a a conveyancer, and afterwards of an Equity draftsman or a special pleader, with a view to see how business is done. He gets what advice he can from his much-occupied tutor, or from the friends he makes in the profession, or in the pupil-room; and thus picks up such elementary knowledge of law as he can put together. He then commences practice, and learns the business of his profession really and truly by practising, more than by anything else, and after he begins to build up the superstructure in this way he has very little time to amend or enlarge his foundation. Now, let not the House suppose that this is a matter which concerns those only who practice the law. It is very important to the country that those who practice the law should have a good scientific knowledge, because, although it may be true that men do not succeed in business unless they prove themselves competent to transact it, yet, on the other hand, they would transact it better, as individuals and as a class, in proportion to the depth and solidity of their acquirements; and not only would that be the case with the most eminent members of the profession, but it would be so, in an even more important degree, with those whose performances are less under the public eye, both among barristers and solicitors. There can be no doubt that great benefit would arise in the practice of all branches of the law from an improvement in the system of study. But the evil does not stop there. The want of this science, of this foundation, of this method, is felt everywhere. The

1485
great and notorious defects of form and consistency in our legislation are, in a large measure, the result of law not being studied in England as a science; and, so far from there being any promise of amendment in this respect, under the present system, there is every prospect of matters becoming worse. Our judicature again suffers greatly: for as Judges are multiplied in the Superior Courts, and local Courts are established throughout the country—a multiplication which is absolutely necessary for the due administration of justice — that multiplication itself tends more and more to bring into prominence the want of governing principles, the incoherent character of our jurisprudence. With the multiplication of Judges you get constantly diverging views, a continually increasing variety of precedents, and increasing uncertainty in their application. There are other considerations, in addition to those I have mentioned. When we consider how many important offices of the State, requiring legal knowledge and legal habits and methods, are confided to barristers of a certain standing, it is plainly of great importance that a system of education should be established which may enable the members of the class from which these appointments are made, to acquire a good and sound general knowledge of the law, and, at the same time, afford to the public some guarantee of the possession of that knowledge by those on whom the appointments are conferred. Again, the whole of the magistracy throughout the country, paid and unpaid, though not entirely recruited from the class of barristers, is at all events selected from a class to whom it would be of great importance to have afforded them the means of acquiring sound instruction in the law. Would it not be of immense advantage, too, to those who come here to make laws, to have the opportunity of acquiring such knowledge before undertaking the duties which we are here called upon to discharge? And I may say that, with regard to all men of business throughout the country—to our merchants, to the non-professional classes as well as the professional, it would be of great value and importance if a good school of law were established, where every man who wished to be instructed in the elementary knowledge of the laws of his country could obtain
1486
that instruction in a sound and scientific form. But, further, we must remember that we are the centre from which radiates law to other great regions of the earth. In the colonies and in the East Indies we undertake the administration of the law, and we send out a continual supply of Judges and barristers to carry on the traditions, the knowledge, and practice of our law in those remote possessions. Is it not of the greatest importance that we should do our best to ensure the proper qualification of those whom we send? But, perhaps, I ought to apologize for having dwelt so long upon the importance and the necessity of an alteration in the present system, because it is not recently—it is as long ago as 1846—that this House directed its attention to that subject. A Select Committee was then appointed, one of its Members being, if I recollect rightly, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. S. Walpole). That Committee made a Report from which I will take the liberty of reading a few passages—passages which, with very little qualification, would represent the state of things now, as they represented the state of things at that time. The Committee say—
"That the present state of legal education in England and Ireland, in reference to the classes, professional and non-professional, concerned, to the extent and nature of the studies pursued, the time employed, and the facility with which instruction may be obtained, is extremely unsatisfactory and incomplete, and exhibits a striking contrast and inferiority to such education, provided as it is with ample means and a judicious system for their application, at present in operation in all the more civilized States in Europe and America."
They add—
"That it may be asserted as a general fact, to which there are very few exceptions, that the student, professional and unprofessional, is left almost solely to his own individual exertions, industry and opportunities; and that no legal education worthy of the name is at this moment to be had in either England or Ireland."
That was written in 1846; and though there has been some improvement since, that improvement has not been of a very important or extensive character. The Committee go on to say—
"That, among the consequences of this want of scientific legal education, we are altogether deprived of a most important class, the legists or jurists of the Continent—men who, unembarrassed by the small practical interests of their profession, are enabled to apply themselves exclusively to law as to a science, and to claim by their

1487
writings and decisions the reverence of their profession not in one country only, but in all where such laws are administered."
I will also mention one other just and important observation which was made by that Committee—
"That a system of legal education, to be of general advantage, must comprehend and meet the wants, not only of the professional, but also of the unprofessional student."
It ought to be open to all the country, and not be confined merely to those who are desirous of practising the law. As a remedy for these evils, the Committee recommended that the Inns of Court should be united into one body, so as to
"Form for all purposes of instruction a sort of aggregate of colleges, or, in other words, a species of Law University."
I referred just now, among other considerations, to those connected with India and our colonies; and with the permission of the House, I should like to read an extract from a letter which I have received from an eminent Indian Judge, who takes a warm interest in this subject. The writer is Mr. Justice Markby, one of the Judges of the High Court at Calcutta; he says, "with the greatest confidence," that
"The want expressed by the movement is already felt in every part of India. It is through the administration of the law that England has her strongest hold on India. It is at this point that she has most completely broken down those barriers which in other matters separate us so widely from our Indian fellow-subjects."
He then refers to the appointment of Native Judges, both in the Mofussil, and, in four instances, as members of the High Court itself; and adds—
"In all parts of the country a Native Bar is springing up. I am satisfied that this desirable state of things is due, in a great measure, to the link which has been formed between England and India by the Bar; and I look with the greatest satisfaction at the prospect, that this link will be still further strengthened by the growing habit of Hindoos and Mahometans to resort to England for the purpose of studying law at the Inns of Court. But can anyone say that they find there what they have a right to expect? Surely they ought to find a thorough and complete system of education. If this is desirable for ourselves, much more is it desirable for a Native of India. A Native of India requires, even more than an Englishman, some systematic instruction, before he attempts to acquire the art to practise. Indeed, I do not hesitate to say, that the most conspicuous failures of Native lawyers in India have arisen entirely from the want of this preliminary instruction …… It seems to me, therefore, not too much to say that the question which has been mooted is one of Imperial concern."
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It will be remembered that one of the recommendations contained in the Report of the Committee of 1846 was, that the four Inns of Court should be brought together and organized, so as to form for all purposes of instruction a sort of aggregate of colleges, or, in other words, a species of Law University; and they advised, amongst other things, that there should be admitted to some, at least, of the lectures to be given in the Inns of Court, when so organized, students intended to follow the profession of attorneys and solicitors. I mention that to show that it was seen, even then, that it would not be desirable, in the early stage of legal education at all events, to draw any absolute line of separation between those who were intended for different branches of the profession; but that the advantages which would result from the proposed change ought to be open to till who might be able and willing to profit by them. That Report was not productive of any immediate effect; but the subject did not entirely go to sleep; for in 1851, I think, the Inns of Court began to bestir themselves, and set on foot that system of assistance to legal education, of the results and character of which I will presently give the House some account. In 1855 a Royal Commission, which had been appointed in the year before, with the limited object of inquiring into the Inns of Court and Chancery, and which included the present Lord Chancellor, who was its Chairman, Lord Westbury, Lord Chief Justice Cockburn, Sir John Taylor Coleridge, Sir Henry Keating, Sir John Shaw Lefevre, and other eminent persons, adverted in forcible language to the evils which I have mentioned. They took the evidence of many witnesses of great experience; and in the result they recommended that a University should be constituted, with a power of conferring degrees in law, and with a Chancellor and a Senate to be elected in certain proportions by the Inns of Court; saying—
"We deem it advisable that there shall be established a preliminary examination for admission to the Inns of Court of persons who have not taken a University degree, and that there shall be examinations, the passing of which shall be requisite for the call to the Bar; and that the four Inns of Court shall be united in one University for the purpose of these examinations, and of conferring degrees."

1489
I will now give the House some account of what has been done by the Inns of Court. As I said, it was in 1851 that the scheme began, of which the ultimate result was the establishment of the present "Council of Legal Education," a body representing, and receiving pecuniary assistance from, the four Inns of Court. The operations of that Council have hitherto been limited to affording opportunities of improvement, by means of lectures given by readers in different branches of law, and of voluntary examinations to those students who are willing to profit by them. Down to the present time it has continued to be possible for anyone to be admitted to the Bar, without any test to ascertain whether he possesses any legal knowledge. Eating a certain number of dinners, and attending for a year in a barristers's chambers, or attending for one year a prescribed course of lectures, is all that has been required; the alternative being at the same time offered of passing an examination which, being perfectly optional, very few have chosen to go through. Five lectureships in the whole have been established in different branches of law, with the results, in figures, which I will proceed to give. By the accounts for the year preceding the 10th of January, 1871, it appears that the contributions of the four societies, including what they gave for the expenses of the establishment, amounted to £1,440; the students' fees for public lectures amounted to £3,174; and the students' fees for private lectures to £556. These figures are sufficient to show that such a system as that which I desire to see established might easily be made capable of supporting itself. And now with respect to the students. The number of attendances of students on the several courses of public lectures during the same year was 376; but here I ought to mention that I do not think these figures mean that 376 individual students attended lectures during the year, because probably in many cases the same person attended more than one course of lectures, and is counted for each course. The number, therefore, attending the lectures, in the aggregate, was 376, subject to that deduction. Subject to a like deduction, there were 101 students who attended the private lectures, and 25 who attended the lectures on Indian law. Only 58
1490
offered themselves for the general examination, and 30 for the voluntary examination for exhibitions; of whom again, several must have been counted more than once, if—as is most probable—the same students were examined in several different subjects. These figures represent, down to the present time, the numerical results of the present system. With regard to the instruction itself, and the profit to be derived from it, the narrowness of the system has an unavoidable tendency to confine the advantages it is calculated to confer within a very limited range. The attendance is not sufficiently numerous, nor are the tests of proficiency sufficiently substantial to stimulate to the utmost the energies of either teachers or pupils. I am afraid that, with the exception of a few distinguished students, the thing has worked in a languid, imperfect manner, because the scheme was not comprehensive or bold enough to produce serious and important effects; and I need scarcely add that the absence of a compulsory test of qualification before the call to the Bar has in itself been fatal to its success. In that state of things, a Committee of gentlemen determined last year that it should not be their fault if something better was not attempted. And accordingly many members of the Bar, and many solicitors and attorneys who took an interest in the matter, united themselves into a society called the Legal Education Association. This association proposed to place the general course of studies and the examinations preliminary to and requisite for admission to the practice of the law, in all its branches, under the management and responsibility of a legal University, to be incorporated in London; to make the passing of suitable examinations in this University—or of equivalent examinations in the legal faculty of some other University of the United Kingdom—indispensable to the admission of students to the practice of the Bar, or to practice as special pleaders, certificated conveyancers, attorneys, or solicitors; and, lastly, to offer the benefits of the course of study and examinations to be afforded by the University to all classes of students who may desire to take advantage of them, whether intending or not intending to follow the legal profession in any of its branches, and whether members or not of any of

1491
the Inns of Court. They also considered it expedient that the proposed University should be so constituted as to give a due share of representation in its government to all branches of the legal profession; and they desired to do this, as far as possible, in co-operation with the Universities of Oxford, Cambridge, and London, with the Inns of Court, and with the different law societies representing the attorneys and solicitors throughout the kingdom. And now I would state how these proposals have hitherto fared. The Universities of Oxford and Cambridge both appointed Committees with a view to friendly communication with this association. A great legal authority at Oxford has authorized me to state that that University has lately effected a complete reconstruction of its machinery for teaching and examining in law and jurisprudence, with the express object of having it ready to fit in with any comprehensive organization of legal education which may be established, either by the Inns of Court or by any body external to them. And the Petition from the members of the Bar, which I have presented to-day, is signed by Sir Henry Maine, Corpus Professor of Jurisprudence at Oxford, perhaps the most eminent of our living jurists; by Mr. Montagu Bernard, Professor of International Law, who lately acted as one of the British Commissioners in negotiating the Treaty of Washington; by Mr. Bryce, Regius Professor of Civil Law, and by Mr. Kenelm Digby, Vinerian Reader of Law at Oxford; showing most distinctly, that these gentlemen, who represent, as well as any who could be named, the scientific element of jurisprudence in this country at the present day, take an active interest in the proposals which I am now submitting to the House. At Cambridge, also, a similar disposition has been shown; on the 7th of March last the Senate of the University appointed a syndicate to confer with the Legal Education Association; and the Petition to which I just now referred bears the signature of Dr. Abdy, the Regius Professor of Civil Law at Cambridge. The University of London, by its constituted authorities, has also expressed approval of the general views and principles of the association; subject, however, to objections which they have made to the creation of a new University,
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strictly and technically so-called, with power to give degrees in law. That part of the proposal is not by any means of its essence. In consequence of that objection, and to avoid, upon the present occasion, airy unnecessary cause of difference, I have altered the terms of the Notice which I had given by omitting the word "University," which might seem to have prejudged that question, which I did not intend to do. But, with regard to the substance of the plan, the University of London has expressed its approval, and I do not doubt its willingness to co-operate. I may state, moreover, that Mr. Sheldon Amos, the Professor of Jurisprudence at University College, London, has signed the Petition which I have presented to-day. We have also had a very friendly communication from the University of Edinburgh, which shows that their experience is not unfavourable to the principles of the plan; and from that communication I wish to read one passage, which bears upon the most controverted point in the scheme to which I am now calling the attention of the House. The passage to which I refer is as follows:—
"It may not be uninteresting to the association to mention that, in the teaching of the (Scottish) Universities there has never been known any distinction between students intended for different branches of the legal profession. All sit on the same benches, listen to the same lectures, and submit to the same University examinations; nor has it ever been suggested that this practice has been attended with any evil results."
Now, I come to the reception which these proposals have met with from the different legal bodies in England—and, in the first place, I may perhaps be permitted to mention that many very eminent men, including the Lord Chancellor, and not less than 11 of the other Judges in the Superior Courts of Law and Equity, have declared, and still authorize me to declare, their general approval of the scheme — and to these I am permitted to add, amongst other distinguished names, those of Sir William Erle, lately Lord Chief Justice of the Common Pleas; Sir John Taylor Coleridge, who was one of the Commissioners of 1854; and Sir Joseph Napier, formerly Lord Chancellor of Ireland, who moved for the appointment of that Commission in this House. These gentlemen, and others whom I would rather leave to speak for themselves in this or "another place," have expressed a very

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warm interest in the accomplishment of the object which we have in view—and the Petition from the Bar, to which I have already more than once referred, has received, within a very short space of time, nearly 400 signatures—among which are those of 18 Queen's Counsel. With regard to the reception which the plan has met with from the different organs of the profession, if I may so term them, I will first allude to the action taken by the Incorporated Law Society. The Incorporated Law Society met in May last, and passed the following resolution, in accordance with which, they have also addressed a Petition to this House, which I presented this evening:—
"That the Society approves generally of the proposals of the Legal Education Association for a University or School of Law, and is willing to co-operate with the Association on the footing: 1. That all the several branches of legal study will be open to all who may become students, without distinction or classification, leaving them to determine with which branch of the profession they will ultimately connect themselves:—That the course of instruction of all members of the University intending to be barristers shall not be distinct and separate from the course of instruction of those intending to be attorneys or solicitors:—That an examination by the proposed University or School shall be eqully compulsory on both branches; and, that no preponderance be be given to the Bar, or to attorneys and solicitors on the Governing Body."
It is only due to the Incorporated Law Society to mention that they were the first to establish an effective system of instruction by lectures, and of compulsory examinations before admission to practice, for the branch of the profession which they so worthily represent; and that their efforts have been attended with excellent results. From the Metropolitan and Provincial Law Association we also received a similar adherence to our general views and principles; as also from the Incorporated Law Societies of Liverpool, Birmingham, Manchester, Newcastle, Plymouth, and other important towns, from several of which I have to-night presented Petitions. I come now to the views of the Inns of Court. The Inns of Court, in consequence of communications made to them on behalf of the Association, appointed Committees to meet together, and to confer upon the subject; and they have since adopted resolutions, which, if some of them appear to me to fall short of the best means of accomplishing the object,
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are nevertheless important steps in the direction in which I wish to move. In the first place, a Committee appointed by Gray's Inn—always a liberal society—in November last adopted two of our main principles, that of a general school of law, and that of a mixed, and not exclusive, system of preliminary education. They recommended—
"That there should be a legal University, or some one body with united action, to provide means for the education of students for the legal profession; with power to prescribe the educational qualification which shall be required from students on their admission as students, and on their being called to the Bar, or admitted as attorneys."
They were also of opinion—
"That such body should not be formed of the four Inns of Court exclusively; but that no other body should be associated with the four Inns, save and except the Incorporated Law Society."
The Committee appointed by the Middle Temple—a society of whose early, constant, and zealous efforts, and large and enlightened views in the cause of legal education, it is impossible to speak too highly—have declared their substantial concurrence in all the principles of our scheme. They recommended—
"That there should be a legal University to superintend and control the education of students for the profession of the law, consisting of such bodies or members as are contemplated by the Council of the Legal Education Association;" and "That passing such examination as may be established in that behalf by the legal University he recommended as one of the qualifications for admission to the Bar, and for practice as attorneys and solicitors."
From the Inner Temple, and Lincoln's Inn, we have not met with an equal degree of concurrence. Both these societies appear to be at present of opinion that it is desirable to keep the education for the Bar entirely separate, and to retain in the Inns of Court the whole of the educational power which they now possess. But in other respects they also are prepared to move forward. The Committee of the Inner Temple passed the following resolution:—
"That there should be one body, with united action, to superintend and control the education of students for the Bar, and a compulsory examination to ascertain that they are properly qualified before being called to the Bar. That such one body should be formed exclusively of certain persons being members of one of the four Inns of Court, appointed by such Inns respectively; and that such body should be endowed by the Inns of Court with sufficient funds for the foundation of legal professorships."

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In January last the Bench of the Inner Temple repeated their adherence to the views thus laid down. I come now to Lincoln's Inn. So far as relates to the formation of a legal University, the principle of the proposal which I am advocating was approved by Lincoln's Inn as long ago as April, 1863, when, upon the Motion of Sir Hugh Cairns (now Lord Cairns), the following resolution was agreed to:—
"Resolved—That in the opinion of this Bench the creation of a legal University, to which the various Inns of Court might be affiliated, and through which legal degrees might be conferred, and discipline exercised, would be desirable."
No action followed upon that resolution; and I regret to say, that, in one respect, that society appears to have since receded from the position which it then took up; having now adopted the resolutions lately passed by the Joint Committee of the four Inns of Court, which seems to contemplate that the constitution, as well as the powers, of these societies ought to undergo no change. In another direction, however, they have advanced; and, if the movement I am advocating should have no further result, the action lately taken by all the Inns of Court, with regard to the requirement henceforth of compulsory examinations before admission to the Bar, will at all events be sufficient to show that it has not been without good effect. In the resolutions arrived at by a majority of the Joint Committee of the four Inns of Court (and which may be taken to represent the views at present prevailing among the Benchers of the Inner Temple and Lincoln's Inn), they say—
"That it is not desirable that the education of students for the Bar, and the education of the articled clerks of solicitors and attorneys, should be under one joint system of management. That there should be a compulsory examination of students for the Bar before they are called to the Bar, or if they are allowed to practice under the Bar; and that the Inns of Court should establish such an examination; and that such examination be carried into effect under the direction and through the instrumentality of the Council of Legal Education; under amended regulations, the Council being increased in number and authority."
I cannot help feeling some satisfaction at the extent to which the resolutions of all the four Inns of Court agree with the proposals which I am now making to the House. They all appear to agree, or to have at one time or another agreed, that one united body with control over
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the whole subject ought to be established; and, secondly, they all now come to the conclusion that everyone ought to pass a real bonâ fide examination before being admitted to practice at the Bar. Such an examination has existed for attorneys and solicitors since 1835; and now at last, in 1871, we have arrived at the point of having the necessity for such an examination in the case of the Bar universally conceded. But the benefit of that concession is clogged, in the case of two of the four societies, commanding a majority (though not a large one) in the Joint Committee, with the endeavour to keep the future school of legal education entirely under their own management, and to reserve it for the exclusive and separate use of students for the Bar. Now, I must ask the House to permit me, as briefly as I can, to give my reasons for being unable to agree with either of these views. I look upon these as questions of principle, and therefore I have embodied the principles for which I contend on both these points in the terms of my Motion, while not desiring to introduce any matters which may appropriately be called matters of detail. What pretence is there for the claim of the Inns of Court to retain this exclusive control and management, now that the country at large is moving in the matter, after they have so long failed in performing the duties for the sake of which, I take the liberty of saying, they originally existed? It appears to me that they have no just right to claim the exclusive control and mangement of the future system. No one feels greater respect—no one has more reason than I have to feel respect for the gentlemen at the head of those societies—gentlemen who adorn the profession to which they belong. But, after all, the societies themselves are but ropes of sand. They are bodies held together principally by dinners, by occasional councils, and by other formal and occasional acts. Their governing members are numerous, and many of them are very distinguished men; but those who are most distinguished can hardly, as a general rule, take the most active share in their government. For, in proportion as men are actively employed in the business of the profession, they have less leisure to take a regular or constant or effective part in the management of these societies. The consequence is, that

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they resemble clubs more than public bodies; and not even clubs of such a kind as to unite their members in any very close bonds of mutual association. If they have not, in times past, though possessed of large pecuniary resources, though actuated by the best intentions in the world, and though presided over by men of the most honourable character, shown themselves equal to dealing with this subject, I take it to be for the reasons I have mentioned, and because they have no corporate character, no legal organization, no acknowledged public trust or public responsibility. Now, therefore, that the interest of the public has been aroused, and that there is a general desire to see a powerful organization established upon larger and broader views, I cannot recognize the claims of these societies to keep the whole matter any longer in their hands. Whom do the Governing Bodies of the Inns of Court really represent? They do not even represent the Bar. They are self-elected. Almost every gentleman who is appointed a Queen's Counsel becomes, nearly as a matter of course, a a Bencher of his own Inn of Court; and from the number of Queen's Counsel—in Lincoln's Inn particularly, however, much the Benchers themselves might desire it, there is no room for the admission of anyone else. Consequently, no stuff gownsmen, as they are called, have within my recollection been admitted to that body in Lincoln's Inn; the whole management is practically confided to those who can find leisure to undertake it among that body of gentlemen, who, either through success in business or otherwise by the favour of the Crown, have arrived at rank in their profession. The other Inns of Court—though some of them are enabled to form Benches of a less exclusive character—are constituted much in the same way. There is, at all events, no representation of the Bar, properly so called, in the government of any of those societies. But I do not stop there. I see another defect in the scheme which the Joint Committee have advocated. The objects at which they aim are too exclusively professional. They do not wish to see any scheme adopted by which person should be invited to study law in the same school, without reference to the question whether they want or not to become barristers, or attorneys, or
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solicitors. This brings me to the last point of all. After all, the great objection urged against the scheme which I am now advocating is the alarming idea as to the results of students for the Bar being educated under the same system as those who are to become attorneys and solicitors. It seems to me not at all for the interests of the Bar or of the solicitors to draw needlessly or prematurely, before the time of admission to practice, the line existing between the two branches of the profession. The real truth is, that it is for the interest of the county that, the attorneys and solicitors should have access to the best preparatory system of education you can give them, just as much as that such an opportunity should be afforded to those who are studying for the Bar. They comprehend among them men of high general, attainments, and of the most honourable character. There is, and there has at all times been, a large number of barristers and Judges, whose fathers, fathers-in-law, brothers, sons, or other near relatives have been solicitors or attorneys. More than one Lord Chancellor, and others who have filled the highest places on the Bench with conspicuous integrity and consummate ability, both in ancient and in recent times, have begun life as attorneys or articled clerks. The truth is, that it is not in society, it is not in the world that this strict line is drawn, as if the one class were of purer blood than the other. They belong, and ought to belong, both of them, to the class of gentlemen; and they are both of them entitled to the most liberal education, that you can give them. To do this you ought to construct your scheme of education upon the best possible system, and bring together those students who are to supply both branches of the profession—so far, at all events, as their means and opportunities enable them and dispose them to take advantage of it; and you should make your examinations equally available to all. I cannot, for my own part, conceive what danger can be expected to arise from future barristers and future solicitors sitting in the same room and listening to the same lectures. In determining the particular examinations which may be required as necessary qualifications for admission to each branch of the profession, you will, of course, keep in view the nature of their respective duties; but this is quite

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consistent with offering to all of them indiscriminately all the instruction you can. I have endeavoured to picture to myself the supposed influence which some aspiring future barrister may acquire with some aspiring future attorney, when sitting in the same classroom, with a view to obtaining business in after life. But as that can be done now, where the inclination exists, I cannot see that the system I have sketched out is at all likely to injuriously affect the relations which should subsist between the two branches of the profession. And even if the result which is apprehended were to happen, I am by no means certain that it might not be a benefit rather than an evil. One great drawback upon beginners at the Bar at present is, that ability is very seldom a passport, in the first instance, to connection or business. Now, it is just possible that an eminent, able, and distinguished student might become known by reputation to his fellow-students through his merit alone, as is the case now at the Universities; and if you had young men sitting together, some of whom were afterwards to become barristers, and some solicitors, a reputation for learning and aptitude might perhaps procure for the young barrister, more easily than it does at present, some chance of obtaining a first start in business. I am not, I confess, very confident on that point; but I believe this would be much more likely to happen than that the association of fellow-students, not living together, but meeting in classes and examinations in early youth, should induce a forgetfulness of the proper relations which ought to exist between the two branches of the profession. I should be the very last person in the world who would recommend anything that would tend to destroy distinctions, the value of which I highly appreciate. But the practical view is this—if these distinctions are useful, they are not less likely to be so when you make each branch of practitioners as well-informed as you can. If they are useful, they will certainly be none the less useful from your giving the most liberal education to all who are going to follow either branch of the legal profession. I must thank the House for the patience with which they have listened to my statement; and before I sit down I must ask to be permitted to say a few words about the Resolutions which I have to propose. I
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have intentionally introduced into the first Resolution, in relation to the school of law which I propose that we should establish, the words, "in the government of which the different branches of the legal profession in England may be suitably represented;" not at all as desiring now to decide upon the precise means by which that representation should be accomplished, but because it is part of the principle of the scheme to my mind, if it is to be a large, advantageous, popular, and generally acceptable scheme, that it should be carried out in no narrow, invidious, or sectarian spirit. And with regard to the rest of that Resolution, I propose that there should be suitable examinations, qualifying the students to be admitted to practise as barristers or attorneys. Of course, all that is contemplated by these Resolutions could not be done by the sole authority of the Crown; and if the House adopt those Resolutions, and Her Majesty return a favourable Answer, it will be necessary that a Bill should be brought in; which I am, for my own part, perfectly prepared to do. In conclusion, I may mention, that a Motion for an Address to the Crown, in favour of the incorporation of the University of London, which may be regarded as a precedent for my second Resolution, was proposed and carried in this House in 1835; and I cannot but look upon the great success which has attended that institution as a happy augury for the results which may be expected to follow from the present Motion, if adopted by the House. I beg, Sir, to move the Resolutions of which I have given Notice.
MR. OSBORNE MORGANseconded the Motion.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That, in the opinion of this House, it is desirable that a General School of Law should be established in the Metropolis, in the government of which the different branches of the legal profession in England may be suitably represented; and that, after the establishment thereof, no person should be admitted to practise in any branch of the legal profession, either at or below the Bar, or as an attorney or solicitor in England, without a certificate of proficiency in the study of Law, granted after proper examinations by such General School of Law."—(Sir Roundell Palmer.)
MR. JESSELmoved that the debate be now adjourned.
Debate adjourned till To-morrow.

LEGAL EDUCATION—RESOLUTIONS.
  ROYAL PARKS AND GARDENS BILL.
  Select Committee on the Royal Parks and Gardens Bill nominated:—Mr. AYRTON, Colonel GRAY, Mr. STONE, Lord GEORGE HAMILTON, Mr. M'ARTHUR, Major WALKER, Mr. HARVEY LEWIS, Mr. BERESFORD HOPE, Sir CHARLES DILKE, Mr. CUBITT, Mr. DENT, Mr. JAMES LOWTHER, Mr. CHARLES REED, Mr. MITFORD, and Mr. MILLER:—Five to be the quorum.
TREASURERS OF RATES BILL.
(Mr. Donald Dalrymple, Sir W. Bagge, Mr. Dodds.)
TREASURERS OF RATES BILL.

  [BILL 120.] COMMITTEE.
  Order for Committee read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
  Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members not being present,
  House adjourned at Two o'clock.