Commons Sitting of 19 August 1871

Preamble
The House met at Eleven of the Clock.

RAILWAYS—OVERWORKED ENGINE DRIVERS.—QUESTION.
MR. STAPLETON (for Mr. M. T. BASS)asked the President of the Board of Trade, What was the result of his inquiry as to "Delay," who died on the foot-plate of his locomotive after more than eighteen hours' continuous labour; and whether the medical witness did not state at the inquest that the excessive hours of labour imposed upon him were calculated to produce the disease of which he died?
MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEsaid, he regretted that he was unable to give any official information in regard to this unfortunate affair. He had explained on a former occasion that the probable cause of his not being so informed was that this was not a railway accident within the meaning of the law. He was in communication with the railway company on the subject, but had not yet been informed of the result of the inquest.

VACCINATION ACT (1867) AMENDMENT BILL—LORDS' AMENDMENT.
Lords' Amendments to be considered forthwith.
MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, the House of Lords had struck out of this Bill the 10th clause—an important clause which mitigated the penalties. That clause was passed in that House by a majority of 57 to 12, and expugned in the other House by a majority of 8 to 7, the total number of Peers voting being just about equal to the number of Members on the Select Committee which, after a long and careful consideration, came to a unanimous conclusion in favour of the

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clause. He should have had no hesitation whatever in asking the House to disagree to the Amendment, if the period of the Session would allow of such disagreement being made without loss of the Bill; but as that was not the case, and as such a course might involve the loss of the Bill, which would effect great administrative improvements, he feared the House had no choice but to accept the Amendment. Although the clause was, doubtless, an important one, he might remark that it was not necessary to the other parts of the Bill, and with the disease raging in the country as it did, he thought it was not safe to postpone the measure. He regretted the omission of the clause, because in his opinion it struck a great blow at the principle of compulsory vaccination, which their Lordships, as well as himself, thought necessary for the health of the country. He would conclude by moving that the House should agree to the Lords' Amendment.
MR. M'LAREN, while concuring in the course proposed, said he hoped the Government would lose no time in bringing in a Bill to further amend the law.
Motion agreed to.
Lords Amendment agreed to.

MEXICO—DUNLOP CONVENTION.

  MOTION FOR PAPERS.
  MR. H. B. SHERIDAN, in rising to call attention to the position of British subjects in Mexico, pending the non-renewal by England of Diplomatic communications with that State, and to ask what steps the Government propose to take to protect English interests in Mexico; and further, what course the Government proposes to pursue in the interests of English subjects who are unpaid creditors of Mexico, and whose interests were made the subject of Special Treaty in 1859–60, by a Diplomatic Convention, known as the Dunlop and Aldham Convention; and to move for Papers, said, that the House was aware that Mexico had borrowed at various times, and on various pretexts, from British subjects, sums of money which amounted altogether to about £14,000,000. The interest not having been paid for some time, an arrangement was at last made for reducing it from 5 or 6 to 3 per cent, the Mexican Government undertaking
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  that in consideration of the bondholders abandoning their claims to arrears, the reduced interest should be paid regularly, and that a certain percentage of Customs' duties should be set aside to discharge the same. That promise had not been fulfilled, and in connection with that breach of contract, he maintained that it was the duty of Her Majesty's Government to protect the interests of British subjects wherever they might be resident. Moreover, there was this additional consideration—that in 1859 a Convention was agreed to between the Government of Mexico and two naval officers representing the bondholders, which elevated the claims of these bondholders into treaty-rights, and in 1861 the Government at Washington actually proposed, under certain arrangements, to take on itself the discharge of the interest upon these bonds; but Lord Russell, without consulting the bondholders, declined the proposition, thereby constituting himself, as he (Mr. Sheridan) contended, the trustee of the claims of the English bondholders. Mexico, by sending away the English representatives, had placed herself in the position of a debtor who bowed out his largest creditor, and proposed thereby to get rid of the whole matter; but such a person would, in commercial life, be regarded as a very shallow knave indeed. Other countries, over and over again, had made claims like these the subject of diplomatic representations, and the bondholders felt every confidence in the late Lord Clarendon, who had told him that if another year elapsed without anything being done by Mexico to meet the just claims of the bondholders, he should consider that the time had come when the English Government should review the whole question. A precedent existed for the course in the circumstance that the United States had at that moment a Mixed Commission sitting at Washington to decide upon the claims of American subjects against Mexico; to which he might add that within the last week Germany had startled the commercial world by declaring that the claims of Prussian subjects with reference to Roumanian bonds would be made an international question. It was very possible that the noble Lord the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs, in the absence of his Chief, might not be able to make any definite statement upon the point;

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  but he trusted that during the Recess he would consider the matter with a view to dealing with it in the same manner in which it was dealt with by the late Lord Clarendon, and that in the meantime, at his convenience, he would consent to receive a deputation of bondholders upon the subject. The hon. Member concluded by moving for the production of Papers and official Correspondence.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That the Dunlop Convention of 1859 having provided that a monthly statement 'of the liquidation of the British Convention Assignments of the Custom House of Vera Cruz should be given to Her Majesty's Consul in that City,' that there be laid before this House Copies of such Returns as have, in conformity with such stipulations, been made to Her Majesty's Representatives in Mexico, together with a Statement of the name of the trustee, if any named by the British Government, for the receipt and custody of the assigned funds."—(Mr. Henry B. Sheridan.)
  VISCOUNT ENFIELDsaid, he much regretted that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Dudley (Mr. H. B. Sheridan) had not introduced that question, which was one of considerable importance and difficulty, earlier in the Session. It was only yesterday morning, at 11 o'clock, that he had seen the Notice given by the hon. Member, and owing to the impossibility of communicating with his noble Friend, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Earl Granville), who was in Scotland, his reply must be in the vaguest terms. The House was aware that all diplomatic relations between that country and Mexico were suspended. The Mexican Government refused to hold any diplomatic communications with the agents of the Powers which recognized the dynasty and rule of the late Emperor Maximilian, and Her Majesty's Government felt it was not possible, under those circumstances, to continue any diplomatic intercourse with Mexico. Accordingly, on the 25th of October, 1857, Mr. Middleton, who then represented British interests in Mexico, was required to demand his passport, and he left that country. The same remark applied to the English Consul General. Since that time all diplomatic communications had been interrupted, and at the present moment it was only through the instrumentality of Lloyd's agent at Tampico that any communication or news with regard to commercial or monetary transactions was obtained. In
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  1849 or 1850, an agreement was made between the Mexican Government and the bondholders, by which the rate of interest was reduced from 5 to 3 per cent, the Government undertaking that a certain percentage of Customs' duties should be paid to the bondholders. That arrangement was carried out by a law in 1850, and further ratified by another Mexican law in 1857. In 1858 the two naval officers to whom the hon. Gentleman had referred, Captain Dunlop and Captain Aldham, made a Convention with the Mexican Government, by which the latter agreed to assign 25 per cent of the Customs' duties at Vera Cruz and Tampico. That was the first diplomatic recognition of the claims of the bondholders; but, unfortunately, the Mexican Government pleaded poverty as the ground of their non-fulfilment of the engagement. In March, 1865, Mr. Scarlett was specially instructed to represent to the Mexican Government the opinion which Her Majesty's Government entertained on the subject, and he told them that, in their view, the Dunlop and Aldham Convention was as binding as any other treaty engagement. He believed he was justified in stating to the House that the Mexican Government did not disown the legal obligation of that Convention; but that they looked upon all Conventions as being abrogated, in consequence of the suspension of diplomatic relations between the two countries. [Mr. H. B. SHERIDAN observed that the whole Mexican Bar had decided the other way.] However that might be, the hon. Gentleman would see that the interference of the British Government would be attended with considerable difficulty, in consequence of the delicate position in which the English Government was placed with regard to Mexico. Any assurance to the hon. Gentleman in the absence of his noble Friend would be premature; but he would suggest that a case should be drawn up very carefully on the part of the bondholders, and submitted to his noble Friend the Secretary of State on his return from Scotland, who would give the subject his most careful and patient consideration. But he was bound to tell the hon. Gentleman that, as long as the Mexican Government refused to make the first step towards asking this country to renew diplomatic relations with them, it would hardly be right for

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  such a proposition to emanate from Great Britain. He hoped the Mexican Government would, either themselves or through the instrumentality of some friendly foreign Power, make the requisite advances to this country, and he believed those advances would be received in a spirit of friendship, if not of cordiality. At any rate, Lord Granville, he was sure, would give the subject the most impartial consideration. He trusted the hon. Gentleman would at some time during the autumn bring the subject under the consideration of his noble Friend. Under the circumstances, however, he was afraid he could not give the Papers which had been moved for.
  MR. H. B. SHERIDANasked, whether he was to understand that under no circumstances would England ever resume diplomatic Correspondence with Mexico, or endeavour to make that country perform her obligations until Mexico herself, the dishonest debtor, volunteered to renew communication with England? If that were so, he hoped the English bondholders would not be invited to solicit Lord Granville's interference merely as a matter of form.
  VISCOUNT ENFLELDsaid, he had expressly guarded himself from giving any definite reply. He had only reminded the House of the circumstances under which diplomatic relations between the two countries were broken off, and suggested that the hon. Gentleman should introduce the claims of the bondholders and of the resumption of diplomatic negotiations to his noble Friend at the head of the Foreign Office, who alone was competent to give a decision upon these points.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Twelve o'clock till Monday.