Commons Sitting of 18 February 1869

MINUTES.
NEW WRIT ISSUED—New Radnor, v. Richard Green Price, esq., Chiltern Hundreds.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Printing, appointed and nominated.
PUBLIC BILLS—Ordered—First Reading—Hypothec Abolition (Scotland) [4]; Sunday Trading * [5]; Endowed Schools [3]; Party Processions (Ireland) [6]

PRIVATE BUSINESS.—RAILWAY BILLS.

  RESOLUTIONS.
  MR. DODSONrose to ask the House to agree to certain Resolutions of which he had given Notice. They had simply for their object to supplement, facilitate, and carry out the 35th section of the Railway Regulations Act of last Session, which provided that, in cases where Bills were promoted by Railway Companies, a meeting of the shareholders, under certain conditions, should be held between the first and second reading of the Bills; and that they should not be read a second time unless the House was satisfied the meetings were held in due form according to the Act. What he now proposed was that the Examiners of Private Bills should ascertain and inform the House whether the meeting of the shareholders had been held. In order to give time for the meeting of the shareholders to be held, and for the Examiners to inquire and make their Report, it would be necessary, in the case of a Bill coming under the operation of the Act, to extend the time allowed by the Standing Orders between the first and second reading of the Bill from seven to fourteen days. He proposed to supplement those Resolutions by another to the effect that, in cases where a poll at a meeting had been taken, the requisite documents should be deposited in the Private Bill Office. The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving his Resolutions.
  MR. HADFIELDcomplained that the Standing Orders of the House of Commons did not permit of a shareholder being heard before a Committee, while in the Lords shareholders were permitted to appear. He know one case in which shareholders, by availing themselves of the Lords' practice, prevented the issue of £1,800,000 in pre-preference shares. He
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  thought the practice of the two Houses ought to be assimilated.
  MR. DODSONsaid, that the point referred to by the hon. Gentleman was not a new one; still it might be worthy of consideration at a proper time; but as the Resolutions now before the House applied to the practice of Examiners and not to that of Committees, it would be out of order to discuss it at present.
  Motion agreed to.
  Ordered, That every Railway Bill promoted by an Incorporated Company and originating in this House shall, after having been read a first time, he referred to the Examiner of Petitions for Private Bills, who shall inquire and report as to compliance with the provisions of the Act 31 and 32 Vic. c. 119, s. 35.
  Ordered, That the Examiner shall give at least two clear days' notice in the Private Bill Office of the day appointed for such examination, and Standing Orders 76, 77, and 220, shall be applicable to any Memorials complaining of non-compliance with such Provisions.
  Ordered, That in the case of such Bills the time limited by Standing Order 191 between the first and second reading shall be extended to, but shall in no case exceed, fourteen days.
  Ordered, That the Statement required by the fifth provision of the said 35th section to be laid before Parliament, in case of a poll being taken, shall be deposited in the Private Bill Office.—(Mr. Dodson.)

THE QUEEN'S SPEECH.

  THE ADDRESS IN ANSWER TO THE QUEEN'S SPEECH.
  Report of Address brought up, and read.
  MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, I rise for the purpose of proposing a Motion, which I hope and feel convinced will not be unacceptable to the House. It is that the Address to which we have just agreed be presented to Her Majesty by the Whole House. It was a matter of serious concern to Her Majesty that she was precluded from meeting the two Houses—and particularly the House of Commons, chosen under circumstances of such peculiar and special interest—by the ancient method of opening the Session of Parliament in State. But Her Majesty had been suffering more than usual from severe headache, and to a degree which precluded her from making the necessary exertion at the period when the opening of Parliament occurred in the present year. There is another circumstance I will add, and which I think it is desirable the House should be made aware of. It is that at

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  all periods of the life of Her Majesty—at the periods both of its unclouded happiness and her unimpaired strength—this particular effort, with the lengthened ceremony it entailed, did always tax the powers of Her Majesty to the very utmost, although it is a ceremonial which she was and is always desirous to perform at the times when she can venture to undertake it. But there is another mode by which a great portion of the desire of Her Majesty may be attained—that is to say, that she may have the satisfaction of meeting Parliament and of meeting the House of Commons by receiving the Addresses of Parliament in person, should the House enter into her views. My belief is that the House will receive this intimation as another gratifying proof, if indeed proof were wanted, of Her Majesty's great sympathy with Her People in all matters that concern their interests, and especially upon an occasion when a great and important measure for reforming the representation of the people and so largely extending the franchise has, for the first time, come into operation. I am, therefore, to state that Her Majesty will be pleased to come to London for the purpose of receiving the Addresses of both Houses of Parliament, in case the Motion I am about to make that the Address be presented to Her Majesty by the Whole House, shall be agreed to both in this and in the other House of Parliament. It is right that in making this Motion I should advert to the course that has been adopted in presenting former Addresses. It has been the practice when the Speech has been delivered by Royal Commission that the Address in reply has not been usually received by Her Majesty in person; but there was an occasion in the reign of George III., when it happened that the Sovereign was prevented by a domestic sorrow in the death of the Duke of Glocester, and by his failing health, from coming to Parliament for the purpose of solemnly and formally opening the Session, and when, at the same time, it happened there was a public and national occasion of satisfaction, which the House desired to testify at the foot of the Throne by presenting the Address in person. The analogy between that occasion and the present appears to me to be complete, so far as the substance is concerned. The difference is, that at
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  that period the occasion of joy and pleasure was the gaining of a victory by the arms of England at the Battle of Trafalgar—the occasion now is the celebration of a great and peaceful triumph in the passing of a measure which very largely extends the liberty of the people. As on that occasion the two Houses attended the Sovereign with their Addresses and with their congratulations, so it appears to me that now—especially when Her Majesty has been pleased in Her gracious Speech from the Throne to mark her peculiar satisfaction in the passing; of this Act as an occasion of joy and advantage to the public—the House, on its part, will be glad to answer, not with mere words, that expression of satisfaction, but by an act which it will be in their power to perform, by proceeding, headed by you, Sir, and with the attendance of such Members as may choose to constitute a House or may be able to attend, to the Palace, to which Her Majesty will readily come, at a suitable period, from Windsor, for the purpose of receiving the loyal and dutiful Address of Parliament. One word more. I ought to say that no doubt it will be a matter for the consideration of the authorities of the House whether, as the practice has been to attend the Sovereign in person only upon occasions when there was a special cause for the Speech being delivered by Commission, it will be proper or necessary to mark the occasion by some suitable entry in the Journals. That, however, is for the consideration of the authorities, and it is not a matter for me to decide. In these few words I have to move "That the said Address be presented to Her Majesty by the Whole House."
  MR. DISRAELI: I should be willing that a Motion of this kind should pass without notice, but as the course proposed is an unusual one for the House to adopt, it is better that it should be adopted in a manner which should not lead in the future to misconception and mistake. I am sure the House most sincerely regrets that the state of Her Majesty's health deprived Her Majesty of the gratification she would have felt in meeting the New Parliament, in the peculiar circumstances under which we were chosen. Although I acknowledge that we ought to assent to the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman, being an unusual one, with some caution, I hold

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  it so important and so desirable that some personal relations should be established between Her Majesty and the New Parliament that has been elected, that I think the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman is a wise and judicious one. We shall take a course gratifying to Her Majesty and gratifying to this House, while at the same time it will be adopted, I doubt not, with those precautions which the right hon. Gentleman has hinted at, so that for the future it will be referred to as a course adopted by the House under peculiar circumstances, and not as a ceremonial which is to be followed by the House as the ordinary course, when the peculiar and interesting circumstances which have induced Her Majesty graciously to give us this intimation do not exist.
  SIR LAWRENCE PALKexpressed his regret that the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister had not given notice of the Motion, so that the House might have had an opportunity of considering its terms. He should not, however, have risen if it had not been for an observation that fell from the right hon. Gentleman, to the effect that on a former occasion, when a similar course was pursued, it was for the purpose of offering the congratulations of the House on a great victory having been achieved by the British arms, while the House was at present asked to congratulate Her Majesty on a great political triumph. His object in then addressing the House was to protest against any course being adopted upon the present occasion which would give any colour to the conclusion that the House congratulated the Queen or the country on any political triumph that might or might not have been obtained. That was a question which would be brought under the consideration of the House before long, and it would then be time enough to congratulate the Ministry, or the Crown, or the country on the results of the recent change in our electoral system.
  Address agreed to:—
  To be presented by the Whole House:—Privy Councillors humbly to know Her Majesty's pleasure when She will be attended.

  SCOTLAND—PORTPATRICK HARBOUR AND LIGHTHOUSE.—QUESTION.
  LORD GARLIESsaid, he would beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade, Whether it is intended to discontinue the light in Portpatrick Lighthouse; and, if such change be intended, to state the reasons for its discontinuance?
  MR. BRIGHT: The noble Lord, I presume, is aware that it is intended on the part of the Treasury and the Government to discontinue the harbour of Portpatrick, and that measures have been taken with that view. What is to be done is not absolutely decided upon, because negotiations are now on foot with the Commissioners of Supply, the local authority of the district, with a view to their taking the harbour under their care if they should think fit to do so. If, however, the harbour should be discontinued, the light will not be maintained, because it is believed that it is of no value to passing ships, and is only useful as long as the harbour is continued. Of course, if it can be shown that it is useful, some arrangement may be made; but at present the information before the Board of Trade is that the harbour will not be necessary in future, and if the harbour be discontinued the light will not be maintained.

THE ABYSSINIAN EXPEDITION.

  QUESTION.
  MR. FAWCETTsaid, he would beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether it is true that India advanced £6,589,100 towards the expenses of the Abyssinian War; whether of this amount £3,089,100 is still due by England to India; whether it is true that India had to borrow a portion of the amount thus advanced from the Bank of Bengal; and, if so, whether Her Majesty's Government intend that England or India should pay the interest due upon this loan?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid: On the 17th of December last the Government of India telegraphed to us that they had expended for the purposes of the Abyssinian Expedition, on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, the sum of £7,000,000. Since that time I have had no official communication whatever from the Government of India, and am, therefore, unable to say what have been the financial proceedings of

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  the Government of India, or to answer that portion of the hon. Gentleman's Question which relates to the Bank of Bengal. The sum already paid to India on account of the expedition was £4,000,000.

  POOR LAW (IRELAND).—QUESTION.
  MR. M'MAHONsaid, he would beg to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether it is his intention to introduce, during this Session, a Bill to assimilate the Poor Law of Ireland to that of England, by enlarging the area of rating from parishes or electoral districts to unions?
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEreplied, that the Government had no intention of legislating on the question during the present Session. It was a matter of great importance, and one that would require a great deal of consideration before the Government could come to any conclusion on the subject.

  RETURNS.—QUESTION.
  COLONEL SYKESsaid, he would beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Why a Return, ordered by the House on the 11th of May last, has not been sent in?
  MR. MONSELLreplied, that the Return, which would embrace a vast variety of details, was being prepared with great care, and would shortly be ready. He might add that similar information would for the future be supplied at the beginning of every year.

  IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT—ARREST OF A YOUNG GIRL.—QUESTION.
  SIR GEORGE JENKINSONsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether his attention has been called to a letter in The Times Newspaper, signed W. Williams, and dated 19, Broad Street, Bloomsbury, in which it is stated that a girl under fourteen years of age has been taken away from, the Girls' Refuge at Ealing by the Sheriff's Officers for a supposed debt of £53 11 s. 2d., and conveyed to Whitecross Prison; and, whether there was any truth in the alleged statement? He would further ask whether the right hon. Gentlemen was prepared, in case the story were true, to take any, and if so, what, steps in relation to the matter?
  MR. BRUCEreplied, that his attention had only been called to the statement by reading that morning the Question placed on the Paper by the hon. Baronet. Since that time he had made all the inquiries which were possible, and had ascertained that not only was one young girl of thirteen taken by the Sheriff's officers to Whitecross Prison, but that two sisters, aged fourteen and seventeen, were imprisoned at the same time for costs incurred in an action at law. It was supposed that the committals had been made by a Judge under some mistake. He had given instructions that further inquiries should be made, and if the hon. Baronet would repeat his Question on another day he hoped to be able to give him a fuller and more complete Answer.

FUNDS OF TRADES UNIONS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. GOURLEYsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, If it be his intention to bring in a Bill for the purpose of legalizing the Funds of Trade Unionists?
  MR. BRUCEsaid, he had been informed that the Act passed during the last Session, and introduced to the House by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Southampton (Mr. Russell Gurney), did effect the object of legalizing the funds of trades unions. That was, however, but a temporary measure, and whatever else remained to be done would be done when the Report of the Trades Union Commission was presented, and when the Government had time to take that Report into their consideration.
  MR. HADFIELDasked, When the Report was likely to be presented?
  MR. BRUCEsaid, it would be presented in a very short time; but he could not say whether it would, be in a few days or weeks.

  HYPOTHEC ABOLITION (SCOTLAND) BILL.—LEAVE.—FIRST READING.
  MR. CARNEGIE, in moving for leave to bring in a Bill for the abolition of the Landlord's right of Hypothec in Scotland, said, the measure was identical with that which he had introduced two years ago, and which had then been fully considered by the House. He had included in the Bill the rights of landlords in urban as

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  well as in agricultural districts, and the House would consider in Committee whether they would adopt that proposal. He might mention that, finding it would suit the convenience of Scotch Members that the second reading should be taken in May, he would postpone the further consideration of the measure till that month.
  MR. DYCE NICOL, in seconding the Motion, thanked the hon. Member for Forfarshire (Mr. Carnegie) for bringing forward thus early a Bill on a subject which has caused so much unsatisfactory feeling in Scotland, and which the legislation of 1867 has failed to diminish. He expressed a hope that in the proposed Bill the hon. Member would avoid, connecting urban with agricultural hypothec, which was the chief cause of the failure of his former Bill on this subject. If the occupiers of house property are aggrieved by the law as it now stands, let thorn agitate for its total abolition, but until such was the case, he hoped that the hon. Member would limit his Bill to that form of protection which was considered by a large majority of the agricultural and commercial classes in Scotland so objectionable and so opposed to their interests.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill for the abolition of the Landlord's right of Hypothec in Scotland, ordered to be brought in by Mr. CARNEGIE, Mr. FORDYCE, and Mr. CRAUFURD.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 4.]

ENDOWED SCHOOLS BILL.—LEAVE.

  FIRST READING.
  MR. W. E. FORSTER, in rising to move for leave to introduce a Bill to amend the Law relating to Endowed Schools and other Educational Endowments in England, and otherwise to provide for the advancement of Education, said, he did not intend to detain the House long now, but perhaps he might be allowed, in a future stage of the Bill, to enter into the matter more fully. The public had been prepared for a measure of this description by the Report of the Schools Inquiry Commission, of which he had happened to be a member. He could not, therefore, speak of its labours; but, as one of its members, he wished to be considered responsible for the whole of their Report. It was a Commission composed of gentlemen of differ-
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  ent political and religious opinions, who had been fortunate enough to present an entirely unanimous Report. Two of the Members of that Commission, the noble Lord the Member for King's Lynn and the right hon. Baronet (Sir Stafford Northcote) among them, were unable to remain to the end in consequence of their having accepted high Office; but the fact that they resigned their seats on the Commission by no means implied that they objected to the Report—indeed, he believed that if they had remained, they would have assented with the rest. The object of the Commission was to inquire into the condition of all Endowed Schools in England and Wales which had not been inquired into by two previous Commissions, the one presided over by the Duke of Newcastle to consider assisted schools, elementary schools assisted by Votes of Parliament; and the other presided over by the Earl of Clarendon, which was appointed to inquire into nine special public schools. A measure based upon the Report of the Public Schools Commission had been passed last year through the instrumentality of his right hon. Friend the Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Walpole); and the Bill which he now asked leave to introduce, carried out to a great extent in some respects, and in others almost entirely, the recommendations of the Schools Inquiry Commission. The principal object of the Bill was to reform the organization of the Endowed Schools of England and Wales. But there was one important difference between the Bill and the Report of the Commission. The Report recommended not merely that the Endowed Schools should be put on an improved footing, but that a power should be taken of inspecting, and he might say of managing, them; not merely that there should be power given to make fresh trusts, but that there should be power given to see that the trustees did their duty. The Commissioners had proposed the creation of provincial Boards throughout the country, under the control of a central authority, for this purpose. He was still of the opinion, as he was when he sat on the Commission, that very much might be said in favour of this machinery; but on full consideration the Government had come to the conclusion of not recommending the House to adopt that machinery at present, and, while taking power for the

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  immediate reform and re-organization of Endowed Schools, they did not take any power for their inspection and management beyond the power which was at present in the hands of the Charity Commissioners. Therefore, so far as regarded the re-organization of the schools, they proposed that the Bill should be a temporary Bill. They asked for power for three or four years, to make fresh trust-deeds for Endowed Schools, which should, after approval by Government, be laid before Parliament, but should not become law if objected to by either House of Parliament. But they had seen no difficulty in providing a permanent plan for the examination of schools and for giving certificates of competence to schoolmasters, and in this they had followed the recommendations of the Commissioners. The Commissioners recommended an Examining Council, which would consist of twelve members, and as it was thought there would be more confidence in this body if it were not nominated entirely by Government, six of the members would be appointed by the Universities of Cambridge, Oxford, and London, and six by the Crown. This Council would have power to examine the scholars in all Endowed Schools, and to give certificates to schoolmasters based upon their own examination, or to endorse the certificates given by other bodies; it was also proposed by the Bill that all future masters should be obliged to hold these certificates; but existing schoolmasters would, of course, be held competent to teach without them. The Commissioners also desired to bring about some examination of private schools as well as of Endowed Secular Schools; and the Government felt it would not be doing its duty if it did not provide some means for improving secondary education generally. The Government was naturally very anxious to avoid any interference with the right of private schoolmasters; but felt it would be nothing less than a boon to private schoolmasters to offer them the same examination as was made compulsory in the case of masters of Endowed Schools, provided they fulfilled the same conditions as were fulfilled by the Endowed Schools. The Bill also proposed to open exhibitions under certain conditions for the scholars in private schools. It was per-
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  haps unnecessary further to detain the House by describing the measure at greater length, as it would be in the hands of Members probably to-morrow afternoon, but certainly by Saturday morning. He pleaded for speedy legislation on the subject, because the inquiries which had been made had given the impression that some change was impending, and the variety of interests concerned, including that of the parents, demanded the immediate attention of Parliament. He, therefore, proposed to ask for a second reading on Thursday next, that the progress of the Bill might not be stopped by more urgent Business. Ample time, however, would be given for the consideration of questions raised on the second reading before the House was asked to go into Committee on the measure.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEasked what authority would draw up the new trust deeds?
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, the Bill provided for the appointment of a small Commission, which, would prepare the schemes and give notice to all the parties interested, and, after the schemes were settled, would submit them to the Educational Department of the Privy Council, and the Department would, on its own responsibility, after approval, lay them before Parliament. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving for leave to bring in the Bill.
  MR. GATHORNE HARDYsaid, he did not mean to offer any opposition to the Motion for the introduction of the Bill. He believed, indeed, that, after the Report of the Commissioners, it would be idle for any one to attempt to place himself in antagonism to such a proposal. But he did not think they should make good speed by having re-course to the great haste which the right hon. Gentleman recommended. When it was proposed to deal with interests so complicated as those involved, extending as they did to every parish throughout the country, he thought a week hardly sufficient to consider the measure. He should therefore suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that the second reading should be postponed until that day fortnight.
  LORD HENLEYsaid, he hoped the second reading would not be pushed on so rapidly, because all Members who were managers of Endowed Schools

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  would like to see their co-managers, and hear their opinions of the measure before it was read a second time. He wished to know whether, according to the right hon. Gentleman's scheme, if an Endowed School was already under the inspection of Government, it was intended to take it away and place it under the inspection of the Council it was proposed to establish; and, secondly, whether the Council would be able to make grants such as the Government Inspector now made?
  MR. HADFIELD, while ready to give his hearty support to the Bill, and most anxious that it should have the fullest possible consideration, suggested that Her Majesty's Government would do well to make a division of labour between the House of Commons and the House of Lords, by introducing a larger number of non-political and party measures like this Bill of the right hon. Gentleman and the Bill for the reform of the Law of Bankruptcy in the other House, where there were many noble and learned Lords who would devote an amount of attention to them that could not be given in the House of Commons. Unless some arrangement of that kind was made it would be quite impossible for the House of Commons to give the proper time and consideration to the important measures which the Government had taken in hand.
  LORD ROBERT MONTAGUadded Ms protest to that of other hon. Members against the course which it was proposed to adopt with respect to this Bill. It was of great magnitude and importance, and if it were to have any effect at all it would determine the character, and therefore the future history, of the people of this country. ["Oh, oh!"] Well, what was the object of the Bill if it was not to improve, or to alter the character of the people? What was the meaning of it, if not to improve and extend education throughout the country; and what was education, but a raising of the character and enlarging of the mental capacities? The Bill would thus affect the whole country, and yet it was attempted to hurry it through for weal or woe, with not more than a week's consideration; although in the case of measures of much smaller importance, and which only partially affected the country, time was always demanded and freely given for their consideration. He protested against such a hurry. This was a most com-
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  plex and difficult measure, and yet only a few of its points had been explained by the right hon. Gentleman. He had argued that the proposed scheme was only to be transitory, and that, therefore, it would be not injurious to arrive at a hasty conclusion upon it. The same argument might, with equal force, have been applied to the Bribery Bill of last year. That measure was only passed for a few years, and yet the House took much time to consider and debate its provisions. Besides, though the Bill be transitory, its effects would be permanent, and would spread through the whole country from north to south. They ought to be very cautious therefore how they passed the Bill, for once passed it would cause weal or woe, and its results could not be recalled. The right hon. Gentleman said that the principle of his measure was merely that something must be done, and that this had already been affirmed by the Public Schools Bill. Certainly it might be said that the principle had been conceded, if the only principle of the Schools Bill was that grammar schools required some reform. But the right hon. Gentleman proposed to do much more than ever had been conceded. He proposed to erect a Council, to have a body of Examiners, and to issue a paid Commission, which was to roam over the whole country and visit every school, and prepare and impose large schemes of reform. Besides all this there were many details connected with the measure which had not been explained, but which the right hon. Gentleman had promised to explain in a long speech on the second reading. These details might very seriously affect the character of education; yet they could pronounce no opinion upon them for lack of information as to their character. He maintained that every facility should be given to the trustees of these schools to consider what was to be done before any action was taken. It was not the custom of Parliament to meddle with any interests, however small, without giving ample opportunity to all who were to be affected to express their opinions upon the subject. And yet what was the right hon. Gentleman going to do in this, which was one of the most important of all cases? Why, he was going to organize grammar schools throughout the country. What did that mean? It meant that grammar schools belonging

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  to the first grade might be turned into schools of the second or third grade, or vice versâ. It meant further that these same schools might be removed out of the boroughs in which they were situated, and placed in the counties. He had no doubt that all this would be done by the paid Commission which was to be issued. Upon these subjects the trustees might have something to say. What was to be the size or the expense of that Commission were points upon which they had no information. He must beg, therefore, a little longer time from the right hon. Gentleman—a fortnight at least. There was one other point worthy of consideration. His right hon. Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli) had said, the other night, he thought it a great pity that a general scheme of education had not been brought in. In that opinion he entirely agreed. The education of boys was essentially the same, in whatever grade of life the boys might happen to be born. These grades were merely an arbitrary classification, very useful no doubt for explaining the views of the Commissioners, but there was no reality in them, and therefore nothing could be built upon them. What were those grades? The Commissioners explained them in this way,—they put those boys in the first grade who left school between the ages of sixteen and eighteen, boys in the second grade who left school between fourteen and sixteen, and those who were taken away between twelve and fourteen in the third grade. But he did not see why a boy who did not leave school until a month after sixteen should be in a different grade from one who left it a month before, or if the grades were anything, they might just as well be extended downwards throughout the education of the poor. Some boys were taken away at twelve, in order to go to labour; some as early as six or seven, and thus the question was exactly the same whether it was secondary or elementary education. These grades were merely another name for that which had always been spoken of as the effect of "labour claims." He did not see why the Government should attempt to deal with secondary education on a different principle from, elementary education. But, however that might be, he would not urge these considerations in a carping spirit, but he would urge on
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  the right hon. Gentleman that he should not take the second reading of the Bill that night week, but should give at least a fortnight before proceeding further with the measure.
  MR. BERESFORD HOPEsaid, he did not wish to travel into the details of the Bill, but he also desired to enter his protest against proceeding so quickly with it. An appeal for delay had been made on behalf of the school trustees—a large body of men of very various social habits and difficult to bring together—but there was another class of men who would perhaps be even more vitally affected by the measure, and that was the schoolmasters, many of whom were gentlemen and men of high education, graduates of the Universities. He would like to appeal on their behalf. He thought it very unfair that a body of men like the schoolmasters of these Endowed Schools should not have ample time given them to consider the Bill and confer with the trustees, and then communicate with such Members of this House as they had a right to look to to watch their interests. Any alteration in the system of Endowed Schools would deal with the interests of both these classes, not to speak of that their greatest class the interests of the people at large, and therefore they should be given ample opportunity to consider what was proposed to be done.
  MR. WALTERventured to add his protest to those already expressed by hon. Members, and to request his right hon. Friend (Mr. W. E. Forster) to give them more time to look into that subject before the second reading of the Bill. He did so on a ground which had not yet been urged. There were a great number of new Members in that House—about 200, he believed—and of those Gentlemen probably a large proportion had not had time to read the Report of the Commission of which his right hon. Friend was a member. On the principle of "the more haste, the less speed," it was very important that Gentlemen who took an interest in education should approach that subject with some considerable knowledge of its bearings. In order to do that, it was very necessary that they should have read the Report, which, with the accompanying volumes of evidence, formed a very bulky series of works. It would be as well for hon. Gentlemen who had seen the Report to

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  look over it again and refresh, their memories; but to do that in a week was more than was possible. He had not a word now to say against the Bill, for he had not the smallest idea of what its provisions might be; but this they knew, that there was to be the element of compulsion in it, and the mere use of that expression rendered him very anxious to make himself pretty well acquainted with the merits of the subject before they went to the second reading. His right hon. Friend proposed to bring a considerable amount of compulsion to bear both upon the scholars and the teachers of these institutions. That might be very necessary; but, undoubtedly, it was a very important alteration in our scholastic system, and it formed a sufficient reason why a fortnight should be given them to look over the volumes to which he had referred, in order that they might come to the discussion of the question with some accurate knowledge of its details.
  MR. NEVILLE-GRENVILLEsuggested whether some of the inconveniences that had been alluded to might not be obviated if the Government were to send down a copy of the Bill to the head masters and trustees of these schools.
  MR. W. E. FORSTER, in answer to his noble Friend (Lord Henley), explained that it was simply proposed that there should be an examination of the scholars and also of the masters for a certificate of fitness. It was not proposed to extend the operation of the Bill to any Endowed School which was at present in receipt of any assistance from the money annually voted by Parliament, With regard to the representation made to him by hon. Gentlemen on both sides that he ought not to attempt to take the second reading so early as next week, after conference with his right hon. Friend (Mr. H. A. Bruce) he wished to yield to that representation. He hardly did so, however, on the ground given by the noble Lord opposite (Lord Robert Montagu), who seemed to suppose the Bill would have a greater effect than he himself ventured to expect from it. The noble Lord said it was "to improve the character of the people," a work which, even if begun next week, would not be disadvantageous. But it was exceedingly to be regretted if the persons likely to be affected by the measure—and he
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  hoped beneficially affected—should imagine that there was any attempt to carry it through suddenly and without due consideration. In moving an early day for the second reading, he had done so with the full intention that ample time should be given before the next stage was taken, and it would really be convenient to all interested to allow that course to be taken, on the understanding that the House might consider its views before the Bill went into Committee. He wished, however, to yield to the desire of hon. Gentlemen present, and he hoped the hon. Member for Berkshire (Mr. Walter) would induce all his friends to study the Report of the Commissioners, though it was to be feared even the time he had mentioned would not be sufficient to read all the twelve volumes. With the permission of the House he would put the second reading for Monday, the 8th of March.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill to amend the Law relating to Endowed Schools and other Educational Endowments in England, and otherwise to provide for the advancement of Education, ordered to be brought in by Mr. WILLIAM EDWARD FORSTER and Mr. Secretary BRUCE.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 3.]

PARTY PROCESSIONS (IRELAND) BILL.

  LEAVE. FIRST READING.
  MR. W. JOHNSTON, in moving for leave to bring in a Bill "to repeal an Act, intituled 'An Act to restrain Party Processions in Ireland,"' said, he hoped the House would extend to him the usual courtesy, and allow the Bill to be introduced and read the first time. He trusted that, on the second reading, he would be able to lay such reasons before the House as would induce it to concur in the repeal of that Act, believing, as he did that its repeal would be in accordance with justice and equity, and calculated to promote the prosperity, welfare, and peace of Ireland. The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving for leave to bring in the Bill.
  THE O'DONOGHUEseconded the Motion.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill to repeal an Act intituled "An Act to restrain Party Processions in Ireland," ordered to be brought in by Mr. WILLIAM JOHNSTON and The O'DONOGHUE.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 6.]

  SUNDAY TRADING BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. THOMAS HUGHES, Bill to amend the Law relating to selling and hawking Goods on Sunday, ordered to be brought in by Mr. THOMAS HUGHES and Lord CLAUD HAMILTON.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 5.]

  PRINTING.
  Select Committee appointed, "to assist Mr. Speaker in all matters which relate to the Printing executed by Order of this House, and for the purpose of selecting and arranging for Printing, Returns and Papers presented in pursuance of Motions made by Members of this House:"—Mr. BONHAM-CARTER, Sir JOHN PAKINGTON, Mr. WALPOLE, Mr. HENLEY, Mr. CARDWELL, Sir STAFFORD NORTHCOTE, The O'CONOR DON, Mr. HASTINGS RUSSELL, Mr. HUNT, and Mr. EDWARD EGERTON:—Three to be the quorum.
  House adjourned at Six o'clock.