Commons Sitting of 12 April 1869

MINUTES.
SUPPLY—considered in Committee—ARMY ESTIMATES.
Resolutions [April 9] reported—CIVIL SERVICE.
WATS AND MEANS—considered in Committee.
PUBLIC BILLS—Ordered—First Reading—Parochial Schoolmasters (Scotland)* [72].
First Reading—Habitual Criminals * [73]; Common Law Courts (Ireland)* [74].
Second Reading—Pharmacy Act (1808) Amendment * [37].
Third Reading—Civil Service Pensions * [46]; Sea Birds Preservation * [59], and passed.

ARMY—BRANDING IN THE.

  QUESTION.
  LORD GARLIESsaid, he wished to ask the Judge Advocate General, Whether his attention has been called to a paragraph in the Pall Mall Gazette of Saturday, March 20, in regard to marking Deserters from the Army with the letter D; if it be true, as therein stated, 1st, That since flogging in the Army was forbidden by the Legislature, a Memorandum was issued by the Horse Guards, Authorities "insisting that deserters and military offenders generally should be branded again and again, without regard to the first indelible mark;" 2ndly, That in consequence of this Memorandum the Judge Advocate General "has just issued a strongly-worded Memorandum or Letter to the Horse Guards, severely censuring the course pursued in cancelling an original order against this repeated branding, and forbidding this punishment to be turned into a system of torture;" 3rdly, That, "it is very doubtful whether the Horse Guards have not infringed the Law" in regard to the place selected for marking Deserters; whether he will lay upon the Table of the House a Copy of the Memorandum or Letter stated to have been issued by him to the Horse Guards; and, whether
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  or not, the Authorities at the Horse Guards have acquiesced in the justice of this Memorandum or Letter without remonstrance; and, Lastly, If the statement in the paragraph referred to be incorrect, whether he can state what has occurred to give rise to so remarkable a statement?
  SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLEN SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLEN, in reply, stated, that his attention had not been called to, but, like the noble Lord himself, he had seen and read the paragraph in the Pall Mall Gazette.With respect to the statement in it, it was so far correct that he did feel it his duty to address a letter last month to the Adjutant General in relation to marking deserters a second and third time after they had already been indelibly branded. Some other statements in the paragraph, however, were not correct. It was not true so far as was aware that since Hogging was forbidden a Memorandum was issued by the Horse Guards, insisting that deserters and military offenders generally should be branded again and again; and it followed, of course, that it was not in consequence of any such Memorandum that he addressed his letter to the Adjutant General. He was not in a condition to give the contents of that letter to the House, nor was he in a condition to lay the Papers on the table of the House. A correspondence was now going on between the authorities at the Horse Guards and the authorities at the War Office, and it would not be advantageous to the public service that he should make any statement on the matter. The noble Lord also asked if he knew what had given rise to so remarkable a statement. He was sorry to be unable to give him any information upon that point. He was as unconnected with the Pall Mall Gazette or the writers in that journal as the noble Lord himself; and as far as he was aware the letter, or copy of the letter that he had written, had not been seen by anybody outside the official circle.

POST OFFICE—WEST INDIA MAILS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. E. FOWLERsaid, he wished to ask the Postmaster General, Whether the steamship "Tasmania," carrying the West India Mails, which passed Falmouth on Monday, March 15, before three o'clock, in time for the Mails to be

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  landed and sent to London by the regular Mail, arrived at Plymouth so late that the letters had to be sent by special train; and, whether the weather was not most favourable for her to accomplish the distance in the shortest possible time?
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONin reply, said, that the mails arrived in time to be sent on by the ordinary train; but in consequence of some delay in the landing they had to be sent a considerable part of the distance by special train. Inquiries had been made on the subject, and he believed arrangements had been made by which, when mails arrived near the time of the departure of the ordinary train, they would be landed immediately, so that no such occurrence should again take place. He believed the weather had been most favourable, and that the Tasmania had accomplished the distance in the shortest possible time.

  TRADE RETURNS.—QUESTION.
  MR. POCHINsaid, he wished to ask the President of the Board of Trade, Whether it is not desirable that Annual Reports should be rendered by the Master of the Mint, and by the Marine, Commercial, Foreign, and Statistical Departments of the Board of Trade, the same in character as the present Annual Reports rendered by the Board of Customs and Board of Inland Revenue; and, if it would not be a measure of economy and convenience to discontinue the present separate publications of the Reports on Foreign Trade from Consuls Abroad and Secretaries of Legation, and issue quarterly, in a collected and. arranged form, all Reports received during the previous three months? He was aware that it was no part of the duty of the Board of Trade to issue these Reports.
  MR. BRIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my hon. Friend in his Question has said what is very true—namely, that it is no portion of the duty of the Board of Trade to issue these Reports; but I am happy to be able to inform him that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has given orders that a Report with respect to the Mint should be prepared, and therefore as far as that part of the Question is concerned it is answered. With regard to the Foreign Department, I have a note from the Foreign Office, which I will read for the benefit of the House—
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  "The Reports of Secretaries of Legation and of Consuls are now published monthly, as received at the Foreign Office, the object being to place the information therein contained at the disposal of the commercial classes, with as little delay as possible. Originally, these Reports were only published whilst Parliament was sitting, and they could be formally presented to the House; but it was found that much information was thus postponed till too late to be of service. With the intention also of giving the earliest circulation, the Foreign Office supplies copies every month to the Chambers of Commerce."
  With regard to the Board of Trade, my own opinion is, it would not be very advantageous to produce a Report periodically of the proceedings of that Department, because they extend over a vast variety of subjects and go through numerous and almost numberless details. I have considered the matter myself, and the balance of my opinion goes in this way, that it would, not be desirable for the Board of Trade to make any such general and comprehensive Report as that hinted at in the Question of my hon. Friend.

  ST. JAMES AND ST. PAUL'S, LANCASHIRE.—QUESTION.
  MR. R. SHAWsaid, he would beg to ask the hon. Member for North Devon, Whether the ecclesiastical districts of the vicarages of St. James and St. Paul's respectively, within the ancient parochial chapelry of Burnley, in the county of Lancaster, have within their limits the requisite population to entitle the vicars thereof to the augmentation of their endowments to the sum of £300 a year out of the funds vested in the Ecclesiastical Commissioners; and, if so, what are the reasons for withholding from the said vicars the augmentation to which they are entitled by the rules and practice of the said Commissioners?
  MR. ACLANDreplied that parishes possessing the population of those two districts would, under ordinary circumstances, receive the augmentation, but the Commissioners did not recognize the principle that population alone, without consideration of other circumstances, entitled a district to receive it. These two districts were formed about twenty years ago out of a larger district (Burnley), which was now a rectory, and were endowed by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners with an income of £150 a year, the patronage being vested in the Crown and the Bishop of the diocese alternately. On

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  an application being made to augment the endowments to £300, the attention of the Commissioners was drawn to the fact that the mother church, in the rectory of Burnley, was very largely endowed—to an amount, indeed, of £3,000 and upwards, as he had heard stated. The Commissioners were prepared to augment the endowments of the two districts up to £300 a year, immediately, and to continue the augmentation during the incumbency of the present rector of Burnley; but they proposed on the next vacancy of the office of rector of the mother church—the patron being a private gentleman—that the augmentation should be a charge on the revenues of the mother church, and that the patronage should be transferred to the patron of the rectory. The patron, however, refused to entertain the proposition. On the 3rd of March, the Commissioners recorded in a Minute the principle which guided them in these cases, which was to the effect that, as the funds at the disposal of the Commissioners for relieving spiritual destitution were limited, they could not be, with a due regard to the wants of the country, applied in providing an augmentation of endowments in districts where there were large local revenues available. These were the grounds on which grants had not been made to the two mentioned districts.

CHINA—HOSTILITY TO FOREIGNERS.

  QUESTION.
  COLONEL SYKESsaid, he wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, with reference to the following extract from the "China Mail," quoted by Mr. Horatio Nelson Lay, ex-Superintendent of Maritime Customs in China, in a letter to the London "Times," 2nd December 1868:—
  "The result of our present policy in China is that on every side we hear of hostility against foreigners, at Wuchang-Kiu-Kiang, Formosa, Chefoo, Chin-Kiang, and Yangchowa. From every part of China we hear complaints of the Chinese authorities resisting the clearest and most unquestionable claims."
  Whether the Diplomatic and Consular Agents, who directed the solution of these cases, have reported officially or otherwise to the Foreign Office, and whether the Reports, if any, can be laid upon the Table. What redress was obtained for the attempted assassination of Mr. Hardie and Mr. Pickering at
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  Taiwan-foo, and for the recent attack upon the boats' crews of Her Majesty's gunboat "Cockchafer,'' Lieutenant Kerr, at Swatow. by Chinese soldiers, in which eleven seamen were wounded; and, further, whether the acting Consul at Swatow reported the operations of Her Majesty's gunboat "Bustard," Lieutenant Johnston, in conjunction with and at the request of the Taotae of Swatow against the insurgent town of Choo-chi?
  MR. OTWAY: Sir, it is unquestionably true that in China, lately, some occurrences have taken place that are much to be regretted, which have resulted in the wounding of several men in Her Majesty's service and in a large loss of life to the Chinese. But these proceeding, so far from being the result of our policy in China, have been, in consequence of action, taken in opposition to that policy. Our policy in China is to establish and maintain friendly relations with its Government and people and to extend the commercial interests of this country with the Chinese Empire. We maintain at Pekin a Legation for that purpose, and it is the duty of Her Majesty's Minister there, in ease of damage done to British subjects, to represent that damage to the Chinese Central Government and to obtain from it redress. Sir Rutherford Alcock has, on all occasions on which such damage has been made known to him, made the necessary representations to the Central Government, and has obtained from it either redress or the immediate promise of it. But if Her Majesty's officers—consular or others—take upon themselves to use Her Majesty's forces to obtain that redress which they conceive to be due upon a question of commercial law or other matters in dispute, such conduct will not be approved of by the Government. Now, without referring to the various questions to which the hon. and gallant Gentleman has drawn attention—for this is not the time, as we are about to lay all the Papers before the House, and it will then be in his power to make any comments he likes on the proceedings—without referring to these various matters in detail, I will say that although the proceedings to which he refers have been, as far as the naval and military operations were concerned, conducted with great skill and gallantry by the officers employed, they were not such as could possibly meet

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  with, the approval of the Government, looking to the instructions given specially to the consular officers in China; and in one case the consular officer at Formosa so far departed from the spirit of the instructions he received, that it has been thought right by the Government to remove him from the post he occupied. It may be satisfactory to my hon. and gallant Friend to know—notwithstanding the very lugubrious opinion he has expressed in his Questions—that we have received a telegram from Sir Rutherford Alcock, conveying a very different impression. It runs thus—
  "March 30, 1869. At Yangchowa, Formosa, Swatow, entire sincerity and improved position. At all the ports accounts received of the restoration of order and peace. Lord Clarendon's instructions of the 13th of December have been communicated to Prince Kung, and the consuls, and the admiral. The best understanding exists with everybody at Pekin. There is no more cause for anxiety on any point. Our relations have never been more satisfactory."
  With regard to the last Question, I can only say that my hon. and gallant Friend appears to receive earlier information from China than we do. The Government have received no information of any such occurrence as that to which the hon. and gallant Gentleman refers. All the Papers on the subject shall be laid on the table.

THE EMIGRATION COMMISSION.

  QUESTION.
  MR. HARDCASTLEsaid, he wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, The present number of Her Majesty's Commissioners for Emigration, and their names, and also the number of clerks and assistants employed by the Commission; the amount of the salaries of such Commissioners and their clerks or assistants; the total annual expenses of the Commission, and to what purposes the expenses are devoted; out of what fund such expenses are paid, and whether there is a fund consisting of monies retained from deposits of intending emigrants who have afterwards altered their intentions, and, if any, the amount of it; what duties are at present performed by the Commissioners; whether Colonial Emigration is not now almost entirely managed by agents of the Colonies, acting independently of the Commissioners; and, whether the Government proposes to continue the Commission in its present form?
  MR. MONSELL MR. MONSELL, in reply, said, he had to inform the hon. Gentleman that there were at present two Commissioners of Emigration, Mr. Murdoch and Mr. Walcott, an assistant-secretary, seven clerks, and twenty-three emigration officers in various ports of the United Kingdom. The salaries of the Commissioners and clerks amounted to somewhere about £8,000, of which £1,300 was paid out of the colonial funds. The salaries of the emigration officers and assistants amounted to £3,912, so that the total annual expenses were £11,595. £9,829 came out of the Parliamentary Vote for Emigration, and £1,766 out of funds supplied by the colonies to which emigrants were despatched. There was a fund arising from deposits of intending emigrants who had afterwards altered their intention. Its amount was £9,652 in Consols, besides £1,000 in Exchequer Bills. The duties at present discharged by the Commissioners were to carry out the provisions of the Passengers Act with regard to emigration from this country, to select and despatch certain bodies of emigrants to Victoria and Western Australia; to superintend the emigration from India and China, and also the return of emigrants to Asia from the different colonies, and to decide all questions regarding colonial Crown lands, leases, or grants. In 1868 the Commissioners received 20,000 letters, and the number received during the present year up to this time was 6,306. The emigration to the Australian colonies, excepting Victoria and Western Australia, was at present inconsiderable. The colonies of Queensland and New Zealand had independent emigration agents of their own, as also the colony of South Australia, but the superintendence of emigration to South Australia was in the hands of the Commissioners. They were at present engaged in sending out the discharged artizans from the dockyards. It was under the consideration of Government whether the Commission should be continued. There was no doubt, from what he had already stated, that the duties had very much decreased, but the difficulty with respect to the abolition of the office was that, on account of the large pensions that would have to be paid, there would be very little saving to the public, who would likewise lose the advantage of the services of two excellent officers.

  RETIREMENT OF BISHOPS.—QUESTION.
  SIR MASSEY LOPESsaid, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, If his attention has been drawn to the expediency of making some adequate provision, for the retirement of those Eight Rev. Prelates who, either from their advanced age or from mental or physical inability, are permanently incapacitated from performing the duties which devolve upon them?
  MR. GLADSTONE: I have observed, Sir, with very great regret, as I think all Gentlemen in the House must have observed, that, at the present moment, no inconsiderable number of dioceses are, in a great degree, deprived of the advantage of responsible episcopal government, through the illness or the infirmities of old age of several of the Prelates; and no doubt it, would be desirable that some adequate provision should properly be made for the purpose of meeting the case. At the same time, looking at the effect of any such provision on the arrival of episcopal vacancies, I think it is a matter on which it is desirable that the Executive Government should, if possible, not proceed on the authority of their own judgment only. It is very much to be desired that the Bishops of the Church themselves should consider the matter, and, if possible, propose a plan, for the purpose of applying a remedy to the evil. I am not authorized to make any communication of a definite character on the part of the Right Reverend Bench; but I am under the impression that their attention has been given to the subject, and T therefore hope that some result of their deliberations on it may within a reasonable time appear. Of course, I do not mean to say that the Government are precluded from considering it, and making some proposal in case the Bishops do not; but I think the House will be inclined to agree with me, that it is desirable that the Bishops themselves should be associated from the very commencement with any proposal we may find it our duty to make.

BAHAMAS—ECCLESIASTICAL GRANTS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. MIALLsaid, he wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether it is within the know-
  582
  ledge of the Colonial Office that a Bill for the withdrawal of public Grants for ecclesiastical purposes in the Bahamas, after being twice carried by (he House of Assembly, has been rejected by the Legislative Council, notwithstanding that in the interval between, its first and second, introduction, the policy of the measure was affirmed at a General Election in the Colony; and, whether it is intended to take any step to ensure that respect shall be had to the wishes of the Colony, as constitutionally expressed? He wished further to ask, What was the state of the Revenue in the Colony at the time, and what proportion the Episcopalians bore to the other inhabitants of the Colony?
  MR. MONSELLsaid, he would beg to inform the hon. Gentleman that, in the month of April last, the House of Assembly of the Bahamas passed a Bill for the disendowment of the Churches of England and Scotland. That Bill was thrown out by the Legislative Council. In consequence of the action of the Council, the Assembly asked the Governor to take the sense of the community by dissolving the Assembly. This the Governor refused to do, whereupon the House of Assembly adjourned for three weeks without passing the Appropriation Bill. The Government was, in consequence, left without any funds for carrying on the public service, and the Governor was compelled to dissolve the House of Assembly. In the month of August they again re-assembled, and passed a Bill with the same effect; but this time the Legislative Council did not actually reject the Bill, but merely postponed its further consideration until next Session. Meanwhile, a new Governor had gone out to the colony, and the Assembly had met again in February; but he (Mr. Monsell) had no further information of any further action with regard to Disendowment Bills. As to the latter part of the Question of the hon. Member, he might state that the pre-sent revenue of the colony was about £30,000;. but the colony was spending about £40,000. With 'respect to the proportion of Episcopalians to the whole population, the hon. Gentleman would find the information in a Return which had been moved for; but, according to his (Mr. Monsell's) own recollection, the proportion of Church of England members was about one-tenth, and the en

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  dowments of that Church were about £3,700 a year.

  HUDSON'S BAT COMPANY.—QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT BURYsaid, he wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, If he will lay upon the Table the answer given by the Hudson's Bay Company to the proposals of the Government respecting the cession of territory heretofore held by them?
  MR. MONSELLsaid, in reply, that whenever the answer of the Canadian Government was received the whole of the Correspondence would be laid upon the table.

  WORKSHOPS REGULATION ACT IN BIRMINGHAM.—QUESTION.
  MR. AKROYDsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, If the Workshops Regulation Act, 30 and 31 Vic, c. 146, has been enforced by the Local Authorities at Birmingham; and, if not, what steps he intends to take to fulfil the provisions of the said Act?
  MR. BRUCE, in reply, said, he was sorry to say that the Act had not been put in force in Birmingham, although he believed there was no great town in the Empire that required the application of that Act more strongly than Birmingham. The Secretary of State had no compulsory powers to enforce the attention of the local authorities to the Act. All he could do was to remind them of their duty. He wished to defer answering the Question as to what steps he intended to take until the Government had had an opportunity of discussing the whole subject more fully, which he was happy to say would be shortly given.

  IRELAND—HACKNEY CARRIAGES IN DUBLIN.—QUESTION.
  MR. VANCEsaid, he would beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, "What course he intends to take in respect to the Duty paid to the Crown by the owners of Hackney Carriages in Dublin?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, the hon. Gentleman will find, if he looks at the Resolutions before the House, that it is the intention of the Government to abolish that Duty.
  MR. VANCEsaid, he wished to know whether he rightly understood that the
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  Resolution did this, or whether it would not be necessary to effect it by a Supplementary Resolution?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: If it were necessary to propose any Supplementary Resolution it would be done; but we think there will be no necessity to do so. It is the intention of the Government to abolish these Duties.

THE FINANCIAL STATEMENT.

  QUESTION.
  MR. WALPOLE: Sir, before we go into Committee of Ways and Means, I wish to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer a Question of which I have given him private notice. It is, Whether he will give the particulars of the Duties to be paid in January next, under four heads—namely, Property and Income Tax, Land Tax, Inhabited House Duty, and Assessed Taxes?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, the property and income tax, which will be payable under the scheme of the Government, will be 1d. less than I took credit for, because in stating the matter that credit was taken when I assumed the income tax to be 6d., and we propose to reduce it to 5d. Therefore the amount of the property and income tax from Schedules A, B, and D, which we expect to receive in January, will be £1,500,000. As to the land tax and the house duty, which, as my right hon. Friend knows, come to pretty nearly the same amount—namely, between £1,000,000 and £1,100,000—we expect to receive the whole of them pretty well in that time. This is an excess of what they would have been if received in April of £950,000. As to the assessed taxes, the Excise licenses which are substituted for them, will amount, in round numbers, to £1,000,000. These are all receivable in that quarter, but I do not expect to receive above three-fifths, amounting altogether to £600,000. The three sums receivable in that quarter above the ordinary revenue will be £1,500,000 for property and income tax; £950,000 for land and house duty; and £600,000 for Excise licenses, which are to be paid instead of assessed taxes; amounting altogether to £3,050,000.

  DUTY ON CORN.—QUESTION.
  MR. PIMsaid, he would beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whe-

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  ther the Government will allow a drawback of the Duty on Corn which may have been paid after the announcement of the abolition of the Duty and the passing of the Resolution?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, it was not the intention of the Government to allow a drawback on corn now in the hands of importers. Corn arriving in our ports that day would be, so far as he knew, subject to the duty, and he presumed that, according to the usual practice, it would be subject to the duty until the Resolution was affirmed.

ESTABLISHED CHURCH (IRELAND) BILL.
  OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. DISRAELI: It will, Sir, perhaps, be for the convenience of the Government and of the House to know that it is my intention to lay upon the table to-night the Amendments which I propose to make upon the Irish Church Bill, so that I hope they may be in the hands of hon. Gentlemen to-morrow morning.

  WATS AND MEANS.—COMMITTEE.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Duties of Customs chargeable upon the articles under-mentioned, imported into Great Britain and Ireland, shall cease and determine, viz.:—Corn, Grain, Meal, and Flour, and articles of the like character, viz.:—Wheat; Barley; Oats; Rye; Pease; Beans; Maize or Indian Corn; Buck Wheat; Bear or Bigg; Wheat Meal and Flour; Barley Meal; Oat Meal and Greats; Rye Meal and Flour; Pea Meal; Bean Meal; Maize or Indian Corn Meal; Buck Wheat Meal; Meal, not otherwise enumerated or described; Arrow Root; Barley, pearled; Biscuit and Bread; Cassava Powder; Maccaroni; Mandioca Flour; Manna Croup; Potatoe Flour; Powder, viz. Hair; Powder, Perfumed; Powder, not otherwise enumerated or described that will serve the same purpose as Starch; Rice Dust and Meal; Sago; Semolina; Starch; Starch, Gum of, torrified or calcined; Tapioca; Vermicelli."
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, he wished to put a Question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Under what regulations, penalties, and inducements, he wished to know, was the registration of corn imported into this country to be carried out in future? The question was an important one, and in the House generally he noticed a disposition to insist upon more accurate statistics than had yet been furnished.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, I am sorry that I am not able to go into the details of this matter, but I have referred to the Department of Customs, and am informed that statistics can be obtained under the proposed system with almost as much accuracy as under the present, which renders it necessary to look very much to the merchants' accounts. As to the precise manner in which it is to be done, I am sorry to say I cannot inform the hon. Gentleman.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, the right hon. Gentleman would excuse him for repeating the Question, having been, as the right hon. Gentleman would, of course, remember, somewhat intimately acquainted with the origin of this charge. He hoped, therefore, the right hon. Gentleman would be good enough to make inquiry as to the nature of the proposed regulations, and on a future day to give the information to the House.
  MR. CORRANCE: Sir, the discussion upon the Budget has been somewhat protracted, and to those who have felt bound to listen to it throughout sufficiently wearisome, no doubt. I will not add to their sufferings at any length. It is exceedingly clever, and if I may judge by the observations made, somewhat unintelligible to most. It is an experimental Budget, and as such, upon the responsibility of the introducers, it must be tested by that best argument—fact. This we cannot arrive at for a year hence; and the necessity for general criticism may also be conveniently postponed until that date. Nevertheless, there may be some points which admit of reasonable doubt, and it may be permitted to us to express this. It seems to me pretty broadly that the right hon. Gentleman having got 2d. out of us for the Abyssinian War, is going at some future time, like an honest man and a good financier, to give us 1d. back. I speak generally when I say this. Of course, as he cannot keep it, he will give the other to somebody else, and my doubt is founded on this. Passing over minor details of hair powder and puppy dogs' tails, the real application of this tax is to the remission on corn. Well, let me remove the right hon. Gentleman's manifest assumption that I am going to contest the propriety of this upon the ground of class interest, at least. Let it be broadly admitted, that

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  under existing circumstances, and in present times, the agricultural classes want no shreds or rags of Protection. They want Free Trade, and they are also determined that this doctrine shall be fairly carried out. I admit that under present prices the claim could not be set up. But if I entertain doubts they are of another class. To them I call the attention of the House. I confess I was insufficiently satisfied with the right hon. Gentleman's argument upon this. He assumed too much and proved too little in this case. He held that without doubt the remission would reach the consumer. Now, is this the case? It may be one of the new lights, but upon no mean authority it has been held not. By Sir Robert Peel, and if I mistake not, by the right hon. Gentleman who now leads the Treasury Bench, it was, I say, held that this small duty could be levied for purposes of revenue, and that it did not in any way affect the price. This may to tyros seem a paradox, but the right hon. Gentleman, as it seemed to me, explained it himself. What did he tell us in another case? Why, that as regarded currants whatever we remitted would, of course, be put on by Greece. Well, the principle is the same, the only difference may be in the condition of the ease. None but doctrinaires expect to find such absolute rule, in practice at least. But, Sir, the right hon. Gentleman tells us that it was curious that Sir Robert Peel should hold such language as this—
  "Sir Robert Peel seems curiously to have thought that a tax of 1s. per quarter on corn, or of 3d. per cwt., as it is now paid by weight instead of by measure, was really no tax at all. For so great a financier the language that he holds upon this matter is very remarkable. In his speech in 1846 he says—'I propose, therefore, that one article of grain, which I believe may be applied to the fattening of cattle, shall henceforth be imported duty-free; I mean maize. I propose that the duty on maize shall be merely nominal.'"—[3 Hansard, cxcv. 386.]
  He means, I presume, that it was curious that Sir Robert Peel should have differed with himself, and that of course he is right; but we may not all see it in that light. Nor do I think he did justice to the argument of Sir Robert Peel when he speaks thus—
  "That this duty is something more than a mere registration duty is evident, I think, from two considerations. The first consideration is that it is perfectly easy to register the arrival of corn without it; in fact, it is no more difficult to register the arrival of corn without levying a duty
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  of 1s. per quarter upon it than it is to roast a pig without burning down a house. Again it cannot be called a mere registration duty, for you have an enormous number of collateral duties on articles like tapioca, arrowroot, sago, flour, meal, and so on, all kept upon your tariff for the purpose of acting as outworks and bulwarks to protect this particular duty."—[Ibid., 386.]
  Sir Robert Peel did not say that it was only for purposes of registration; he said that you must have all the staff of officials, and that by these, therefore, the registration could be carried out without additional expenses. But when he tells us that—
  "You may put a duty on these articles for the protection of the Revenue; but why should you do it for mere purposes of registration, which can easily be effected without it? It was clearly the intention of its founder that it should operate only as a register; but it really is, and it has now come to be regarded as, a source of Revenue."—[Ibid., 386, 387.]
  This much we can admit, and it is, perhaps, upon this very ground that we may entertain doubts whether or not it is wise to remit such a tax. What, however, does the right hon. Gentleman say of this?—
  "And what sort of a source of Revenue is it? It is impossible to imagine any tax which combines more of the qualities that make a tax odious—that is, it is a duty on an article that is produced in England with no countervailing Excise duty upon it; it is there effectual as a protective duty—that is to say, it not merely raises the price of the portion of the article that pays it, but also raises the price of the portion of the article that does not pay it."—[Ibid., 387.]
  Well, if one-half of this was true, no doubt; but it is mere assertion nevertheless. The right hon. Gentleman did not offer one tittle of proof. Does it raise the price here? this is what we doubt; indeed the right hon. Gentleman almost admits as much. He says—
  "The consumption of wheat in this country is about 22,000,000 quarters annually; the imports are about 8,000,000 quarters, and the home growth about 14,000,000 quarters. I do not mean to say that the price of the whole 14,000,000 quarters grown at home can be sensibly raised by this tax, but I feel no doubt that the price of a considerable portion of it is, and no one can exactly say how much."—[Ibid, 387.]
  He believes upon ground of belief, he neither supports by statistics or facts. On general principles he claims assent to this. He says—
  "Although in the case of a small duty of this kind we cannot trace its exact incidence or measure the exact amount of the mischief it does, surely there is such a thing as faith in politics as well as in religion."—[Ibid., 388.]
  Well, Sir, the right hon. Gentleman may

  589
  have more than most, but when he once more asks us—
  "If we can take nothing on the strength of abstract reasoning, and everything must rest upon statistics, which it is impossible to obtain in such cases, then we may as well burn our books on political economy, and economic science is altogether useless."—[3 Hansard, cxcv. 388.]
  Before we can accept such wholesale conclusions as this, we must, at least, learn from whom they proceed, and the right hon. Gentleman is neither infallible nor immaculate in this case. It was to the right hon. Gentleman that Mr. Mill addressed these words in my hearing in the House—
  " In my right hon. Friend's mind political economy appears to stand for a set of practical maxims. To him it is not a science, it is not an exposition, not a theory of the manner in which causes produce effects: it is a set of practical rules, and these practical rules are indefeasible. …. So far from being a set of maxims and rules to be applied without regard to times, places, and circumstances, the function of political economy is to enable us to find the rules which ought to govern any state of circumstances with which we have to deal—circumstances which are never the same in any two cases. … Political economy has a great many enemies; but its worst enemies are some of its friends."—[3 Hansard, cxc. 1525.]
  But, if permitted to doubt whether any advantage to conscience will take place, I equally demur to the right hon. Gentleman's conclusion in another case. He once more assumes that a great entrepôt trade is about to spring up, and what is the nature of his proof? He says that between 1864 and 1868 the corn exported was as follows:—1864, 21,455 quarters; 1865, 10,851 quarters; 1866, 19,648 quarters; 1867, 63,453 quarters; 1868, 83,036 quarters—exported after payment of duty. But, that there were transhipped—1864, 5,164 quarters; 1865, 9,239 quarters; 1866, 49,691 quarters; 1867, 169,467 quarters; 1868, 151,902 quarters; and upon this he argues that the obstacle in question is the duty. Is this so? I think not, for the same thing would apply to bonded goods. Is transhipment preferable to reshipment? Why of course it is. Ask any practical merchant this. Sir, there is one thing he has absolutely failed to point out—what great advantages merchants are to derive from warehoused over bonded goods. Why cannot they be warehoused in bond? They then pay no duty when they are taken out; but Sir, they are transhipped, or sent on without breaking bulk, and there is an obvious reason for this quite independent of the tax. It is a mere delusion—a bait then to the mer-
  590
  cantile class. But, Sir, let me say this—if it could be proved that by such means any real or solid advantages would accrue to the consumer or the mercantile class, then, depend upon it, the agricultural interest would most willingly forego the slight advantage it can afford to themselves. The real sufferer will be the payer of the income tax. One word more upon this: there is one consequence of this Act to which I call the attention of the House. The right hon. Gentleman has imagined a case. He says—
  " If we want to get at the real evils of the tax, let us imagine ourselves applying to it the same rules as we apply to all other protective taxes, and put a countervailing Excise duty on the home-grown article. Just fancy the exciseman let loose upon the barns and the stores of the farmers and the corn-dealers, collecting a tax of 3d. per cwt. on their corn all over the country. What a sensation it would create!"—[3 Hansard, cxcv. 387]
  Now, Sir, there is such a countervailing duty in this case, which he has forgot. The Custom House officer does come to our barns and granaries, and to a proportionate effect it does create the sensation the right hon. Gentleman describes, and it is a tax much more onerous than 3s. per cwt. Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to take this off? It is the necessary consequence of this Act. This Budget signs the doom of the malt tax—the right hon. Gentleman may be quite sure of that—and we shall look to that—the Treasury—Bench for support. I shall not go into the question in detail, but I call the attention of the hon. Member for Sussex (Colonel Barttelot) who has charge of the question, to these facts. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade has said that it is his wish that we should have a free breakfast table; I presume that he would not confine this to the higher and middle classes. The labouring classes drink beer, and upon that ground I claim his support. On any other ground I must object to this remission which falls to the foreign producer, and whose substitute is the income tax.
  MR. BARNETTsaid, he had heard from the best authorities that it was not at all probable that any benefit that might accrue from the repeal of the corn duties would fall to the share of the consumer. It was well known that a large portion of the corn trade from the Black Sea was in the hands of Greek merchants, and the first thing that had happened after the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman to repeal those duties

  591
  was made public, was to raise the price of corn in the hands of those merchants 1s. a quarter. No doubt in time the price would find its level; but, with regard to the benefit of the consumer, it seemed to him in the highest degree improbable that the abolition of 3d. a cwt., which would be a merely fractional part of the price of a loaf, would ever be of any benefit to the consumer. He feared the benefit would go into the hands of the middlemen—of the miller, or perhaps of the baker. It was indeed even now curious to remark the difference in price between wheat and bread, and to find that in London, at least, no proportion was kept up between the prices of the two articles. He was aware that it would not do to interfere with the trade of the baker; but it was lamentable to think that, while the farmer was selling his wheat at prices that were scarcely remunerative, the price of bread was still kept up by a combination among those who sold it, and the poor did not get the benefit. As to the 1s. duty itself, he did not hold that it was a question of protection. If it acted in any sense in that way it was as a tax upon the importation of foreign barley for malting purposes. There would now be a great increase in the importation of barley, and he hoped they would have the benefit of that in the price of beer. But it was inconsistent in the Chancellor of the Exchequer to remove the last remnant of Protection as between the consumer and producer of corn, while he left untouched that great impost of the malt tax, which was a constant vexation to the farmer both as a consumer and a producer.
  MR. KINNAIRDsaid, he would beg to remind the hon. Gentleman who spoke last that there were many districts in England where, except in the large towns, bakers hardly existed, the people baking their own bread; and in that case, at all events, the consumers would get the full benefit. Besides there were many other articles as well as corn on which the duties would be repealed by this Resolution, where the benefit would go entirely to the poor, and it would be received by them as a great boon.
  MR. HUNTsaid, he rose, not to make any observation upon the merits of the Resolution under consideration, but to repeat for the benefit of those hon. Members, who were not present when the subject was previously discussed
  592
  that the Resolution was merely formal, and would not take effect until the administrative Resolutions were agreed to. The House would be in no wise committed by this Resolution to agreement in the plan of the Government. It was unnecessary, he believed, that a Resolution for the repeal of duties should be passed in a Committee of Ways and Means. Where a new scale of duties was to be imposed it was usual to pass a Resolution to repeal the old duties, and then to pass another imposing a new scale of duties; but, as this was a case of absolute abolition, the insertion of a clause in the Bill would have been enough, without a Resolution. They would come by-and-by to Resolutions with which he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not proceed—he referred to the substitution of Excise licenses for the assessed taxes. He thought the right hon. Gentleman would avoid all difficulties if he were to divide his financial scheme into two parts and propose them in separate Bills—the one referring to the change in the manner of collection, the other dealing with the change of the duties. If the right hon. Gentleman did not do that the one part of his scheme might have to wait for the assent of the House to the other.
  MR. CRAWFORDsaid, that people out-of-doors were anxious to know at what time the corn duty would be taken off; would it be when the Act had passed into a law, or, as was often the case, when a certain progress had been made in the Bill? There were merchants with cargoes of wheat on their way here, and they wanted to know what they were to do.
  COLONEL BARTTELOTsaid, he had been down in the country, and he found that the opinions generally expressed by the farmers with regard to the repeal of this duty were not unfavourable. They did not believe it would benefit the poor; but they were glad it was to be removed, for it had been constantly thrown in their teeth that they were in the enjoyment of a remnant of Protection. For his own part he was delighted that it was to be abolished. He did not think it had any effect upon wheat, but he must point out to the right hon. Gentleman that it might have considerable effect on barley. No one knew better than the right hon. Gentleman the condition of the barley trade. It was admitted on all hands that English farmers

  593
  grew the best barley in the world for malting purposes, but they complained that, by the operation of the malt tax, they could not use the second-class barley in the way they desired. On taking off the 1s. duty he believed a great quantity of inferior barley would come in from abroad to compete with the English inferior barley. The next Resolution related to foreign beer. Now, was it fair to allow beer to be brought into this country, which might be made from any articles the producer pleased, while the manufacturers in this country were compelled to use two certain articles? To meet this they must commute the malt tax into a duty on beer. If the right hon. Gentleman would do that it would be regarded as a fair and proper solution of the question.
  MR. PIMsaid, that many of his constituents were interested in this question as large dealers in corn, and they had large stocks on hand. They thought they were entitled to a drawback on those stocks; but, as he saw the feeling of the House was adverse to such a proposition, he would say nothing more on that subject. But they were anxious to know the exact time at which the duty would be remitted, as to many of them the question whether they had or had not to pay the 1s. duty would be a question of profit or loss. If it were impossible now to state the exact day the duty would cease, it would be deemed convenient to have it mentioned that it would be off in six weeks or two months. It was considered by traders that that would enable them to get rid of their present stock on better terms than they could if the Act came into operation at once. He did not attach any value to that, for the effect of the reduction of the duty would be anticipated, but he thought it important that the trade should know when the reduction of the duty would take place.
  MR. HERMONsaid, he wished to know whether the remission of the duty on sago included the duty on sago flour?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, it would. He was now in a condition to answer the Question of the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate). Owing to the smallness of the duty and the bulk of the article, in the collection of the revenue on corn the Excise officers took the merchants' account of the weight, and did not weigh the corn themselves,
  594
  except where they had reason to suspect that an attempt was being made to impose on them. In future the registration would be founded on substantially the same data as that on which the duty is at present calculated; and though we could not expect to find it as exact as it is under the stimulus of a duty, yet, for all practical purposes, it would no doubt give a true account of the imports of com. As to the Question which the hon. Gentleman seemed to feel so much about—namely, the date at which the corn could be admitted duty free—there was a difficulty in fixing a time owing to the peculiar position of the matter. It had been agreed between the First Lord of the Treasury and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for North Northamptonshire (Mr. Hunt)—representing as he did the views of the other side of the House on arrangements connected with finance—that the Opposition would allow the Resolutions to be taken pro formâ, in order that the Government might be able to bring on the measures upon which that financial scheme depended. He thought that if the right hon. Gentleman refreshed his memory he would recollect that this arrangement applied to all the Resolutions; because it was obvious that, unless the House consented to the change which he pro- posed in the collection of the revenue, which change was the basis of the remissions, the remissions themselves must fall to the ground. He now understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that his ac- quiescence as regarded the taking of the Resolutions pro formâ did not apply to the Resolution having reference to that change; but he believed that if the right hon. Gentleman refreshed his recollection he would find that it applied to all the Resolutions. The right hon. Gentleman had objected to allowing him to go beyond one Resolution on Thursday night, though subsequently he allowed him to take another. But unless the Government were allowed to take pro formâ the Resolution on which the new system of collection was to be founded, they could not very well advance, for the first step to be adopted in order to give effect to their plan was to convert the assessed taxes into Excise licenses. The passing of the Resolutions pro formâ, while facilitating the Government business, would have no binding effect on hon. Gentlemen so as to preclude them hereafter from objecting to the principle

  595
  of the Government scheme. He would now answer the Question put to him as regarded the date on which the remission of the 1s. duty on corn would be carried into effect. Though the Resolution having reference to that remission had led to very little debate, and would be passed by consent, it would not give the Government authority to remit the duty; but as soon as the House had definitely pledged itself to the remission, which would be, he thought, when the Bill was in Committee, and when they arrived at that part of it, dealing with the duty, the Government would at once take steps to prevent any further collection of the duty. They would not feel justified in taking any other course, because it would not be respectful to the House or fair to the public. When therefore, the House in Committee had agreed to the clause abolishing the duty, the ports would be completely opened for corn.
  MR. HUNTsaid, he was sorry that there was any misunderstanding. When consenting to the arrangement to which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had alluded, he distinctly said that he did not understand it as applying to the Resolution for converting the assessed taxes into Excise licenses. He said at the time that he hoped the Government would allow that Resolution to remain on the Paper for a few days, in order that hon. Members might have an opportunity of considering it. He understood the Government to say that they were perfectly willing to adopt that course, and there the matter ended. He did not think there would be any difficulty in carrying out that arrangement. To the first Resolution no one objected; to the second he was not prepared to object, and he did not believe anyone else would do so. Then he did not apprehend that any opposition would be offered to the third Resolution, which had reference to the income tax. As to the fourth and fifth Resolutions, which were for the repeal of duties, he understood, from authority, that there was no occasion for them. No doubt, it might be convenient to put such Resolutions on the Paper, in order to afford an opportunity for explanation, but with a view to legislation they were unnecessary. He then came to the sixth Resolution, the only one in dispute. Though, in the main, it was a Resolution for the reduction or the remission of duties, it did, in certain cases,
  596
  raise duties. For instance, in respect of young male servants, it raised the duty from 10 s. to 15 s. He thought that was a very questionable measure, and should not be passed as a Resolution without being made known throughout the country. Again, it appeared to him that there might be some objection to taxing carriages by weight, though he was not prepared, at the present moment, to say he would oppose it. He believed the Chancellor of the Exchequer would admit that he had shown an anxiety to facilitate him in getting the opinion of the House on his financial scheme as soon as possible, and he had no wish to throw any obstacles in his way now. As far as he understood the feeling of the House, there would be no objection to the principle of converting the assessed taxes into Excise licenses, but on the proposed alterations in respect of the time of collecting the house and land taxes, there might be some difference of opinion. He thought that the Government might give more time to the consideration of the sixth Resolution, and at the same time avoid delay by making up their mind to embody that Resolution in a separate Bill.
  MR. CRAWFORDsaid, he did not think the answer of the Chancellor of the Exchequer with regard to the. corn duty would be very satisfactory. As no one would know when it was likely the Bill would be in Committee, the trade would be in a state of perplexity. He thought it would be better to act on the suggestion of his hon. Friend the Member for Dublin (Mr. Pim), and name a day in prospective.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he would consider the suggestion of the hon. Member for Dublin (Mr. Pim), and give an answer on the subject to-morrow. He should be very glad indeed to prevent inconvenience to any class. As to what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Northamptonshire (Mr. Hunt), he was afraid they were getting into a vicious circle. He would not go into a wrangle about what was said the other night, because he was sure the right hon. Gentleman did not want to go back from anything he had said. What the Government wanted was to get that scheme carried. To effect that they wanted to get a Bill; and, in order to do this, they wanted to get the Resolutions on which the Bill was founded.

  597
  Therefore, they proposed that hon. Gentlemen should allow them to take the Resolutions to-night, pro formâ, and, without binding the House to the contents of those Resolutions. Then, the right hon. Gentleman, while he did not object to proceeding with those Resolutions, which might be said to be independent of the financial scheme of the Government, was indisposed to allow those to be taken on which it was mainly founded; but unless he would permit the latter to be agreed to, of what avail was it that he was ready to assent to the passing of the former pro formâ? The scheme could not be split up in that way; and, if the right hon. Gentleman adhered to his present view, it would be; impossible for him to introduce the Bill which he had in his pocket, and which it was desirable should be placed as soon as possible before the House and the country, in order that they might be placed in possession of the proposed changes in legal form. He could not conceive how anyone could be prejudiced by allowing all the Resolutions to be passed on the distinct understanding that the House was not thereby to be understood as definitively pledging itself to any of the proposed alterations.
  MR. HUNTsaid, he regretted that he did not seem to have conveyed clearly to the right hon. Gentleman the nature of his objection. He did not mean to oppose any Resolution which would enable the Government to press forward any part of their scheme, except that which related to the transfer of some of the assessed taxes to a system of Excise licenses. He, and those around him, were willing to accede to the adoption of any course which would not oblige them to commit themselves; but he must state that he was disposed to think the imposition of a duty of 15 s. on men servants, without distinction of age, was not a good alteration. He rather inclined to the opinion that it would be better to remit the duty altogether on young lads, and to continue the charge of £1 1s. on the full-grown man. Now, let him suppose that, after fuller consideration, he should arrive at the conclusion that he ought to take the sense of the House on that point, and that that portion of the Resolution authorizing the imposition of a uniform rate of 15 s. were struck out, the right hon. Gentleman would be compelled to resort to a Committee of Ways
  598
  and Means, in order to put on the old duty on full-grown men servants, or to sacrifice the revenue derived from that source altogether. Now, that was not, in his opinion, the way in which the matter ought to be left, and while he was anxious to give every facility for proceeding with the Resolutions, he could not see that the course which he suggested was open to the objection that it would tend to produce any undue delay in the passing of the Resolutions as a whole. He understood, he might add, the Chancellor of the Exchequer to assent the other night to his proposal that the Resolutions to which he particularly referred should lay two days on the table.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERreplied that the Resolutions relating to the transference of assessed taxes to a system of Excise licenses constituted the very key of the financial scheme, and that unless that change were assented to by the House it would be impossible to proceed with the scheme at all. It would be of no avail that the Resolutions embodying certain remissions of taxation were agreed to if the Government were not allowed to carry out that other part of their plan on which their ability to make those remissions depended. The House might reject that part after the remissions had been decided upon, and thus land him in a deficit. Under these circumstances the qualified assent which the right hon. Gentleman had given with respect to the passing of the Resolutions was worthless.
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid, he felt bound to acknowledge the conciliatory and courteous spirit in which the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hunt) had, on a former evening, responded to the appeal which had been made to him in the interest of the public with respect to the passing of the Resolutions, and he (Mr. Gladstone) hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not mar the real value of the assent which he then gave by adopting the course which he now indicated it to be his intention to pursue. A sum of £600,000 depended on the proposed change of certain assessed taxes into a system of Excise licenses, and his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be unable to go on with his remissions until that alteration was agreed to. After all, the point for

  599
  which the right hon. Gentleman contended was a small one, and he trusted he would not impede the progress of an important measure by insisting that a material portion of the financial scheme should be inconveniently delayed.
  MR. HUNTsaid, he could not understand how the scheme of the Government could be materially affected by the adoption of the course which he proposed. When the House was in Committee of Ways and Means, he might add, was, in his opinion, the proper opportunity for the discussion of such changes as those to which his remarks specially referred, because then it was open to a Member to speak several times in the course of a debate, which he would not be able to do on the Motion for the second reading of a Bill. The right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down said that the point for which he was contending was a small one, but he did not mean to confine any observations which he might make simply to the tax on servants. He was anxious to make some observations on the whole scale of duties as proposed, those relating to carriages, armorial bearings, and the duty to be paid by horse-dealers. He doubted whether the proposed change would not raise that duty on country dealers, ["No, no!"] The taxes on carriages and armorial bearings, and the question whether young servants should be taxed to the amount of 15 s. were, in his opinion, matters worthy to be considered in Committee of Ways and Means. He disavowed all intention of interposing in order to embarrass the Government. There would, he believed, be no opposition to the conversion of the assessed taxes into license duties—but the details of that scheme required much consideration, and he could see no reason why the subject should not be embodied in a separate Bill.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that in order to secure the discussion of those minor questions the right hon. Gentleman had interposed to prevent the advancement of a measure which was necessary for the purpose of bringing before the House legislation that would deal with an enormous amount of taxation. After all, this was a question not for discussion but for consent, and if the right hon. Gentleman persisted in withholding his consent, there would be no use in prolonging the
  600
  discussion. For his own part, he could only say that he had done all he could to bring the matter under the consideration of the House.
  MR. DISRAELIsaid, there had no doubt been a considerable misconception, but it had entirely arisen from the erroneous impression made by the right hon. Gentleman himself having at the outset declared that he was only asking for what was a new arrangement pro formâ. He thought the House ought always to hesitate before relinquishing its privilege of entering in a regular manner into a discussion of details of this importance in Committee of Ways and Means. He was of opinion that the points referred to by his right hon. Friend might be regarded with much interest in the country, and the House therefore ought not to forego its right to discuss those points in Committee. His right hon. Friend had declared his willingness to fulfil the engagement he entered into the other night with the view of facilitating the course of the Government business, but then his right hon. Friend had shown that the Chancellor of the Exchequer might have avoided all difficulties if he had chosen to proceed by two Bills instead of one. That, indeed, would be a much easier mode of attaining the end in view, and consequently, it was unfair for the right hon. Gentleman, who had adopted a course likely to produce considerable public inconvenience, to turn round and charge his right hon. Friend with a reluctance to fulfil an engagement which he was quite willing to fulfil, at the present moment. It was also unfair for the right hon. Gentleman to describe the objection entertained by the Opposition to relinquish their privilege of discussing the propriety of items of taxation in Committee of Ways and Means as a refusal to take a course which was merely pro formâ. It would greatly facilitate the course of public business, and the right hon. Gentleman would reap considerable benefit hereafter, if he would adopt the suggestion of my right hon. Friend, and divide the measure into two parts.
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid, that the division of the measure into separate Bills was open to objection on various grounds. That, indeed, was the course pursued some years ago; but the subject was then seriously considered, and the present mode of procedure was deliberately

  601
  adopted by the House. It was not necessary, however, to fall back upon these considerations nor, he might remark, had anybody charged the right hon. Gentleman opposite with the non-fulfilment of an engagement. The practical point was this—The Chancellor of the Exchequer had represented that, in order to enable him to go forward with his proposals, it was necessary that the sum of £3,350,000 should be placed at his disposal by the changes he intended to make in respect to the collection of income tax, house tax, and land tax, and the conversion of the assessed taxes into Excise licences. But without that £3,350,000 the right hon. Gentleman could not get his remissions, and without the sixth Resolution he could not get the whole of the £3,350,000, because he wanted £600,000 which could not be obtained unless that Resolution passed. Under such circumstances, instead of presenting a surplus, the right hon. Gentleman would have to present a deficiency, and consequently to object to his obtaining a part of this sum was tantamount to objecting to his obtaining the whole; so that, in a purely financial point of view, it was not open to his right hon. Friend to divide the Bills, for if he did so the Bill giving him the necessary £600,000 would lie behind the other Bill.
  MR. HUNTsaid, he was anxious to help the Government out of the difficulty. He would, therefore, suggest that two Bills should be brought in and referred to the same Committee, so that they might be eventually incorporated into one Bill. He repeated that he had done all he could to facilitate the progress of Public Business. As he stated the other evening, all he wanted was that the country should be allowed a few days to consider the proposals now embodied in the sixth Resolution. The, Resolution was only delivered to hon. Members on Saturday morning. He should now be satisfied if the right hon. Gentleman would postpone the Resolution to Friday, whether the matters were included in one Bill or two. In the meantime, Members would have an opportunity of ascertaining the opinions of their constituents.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, the only objection to acceding to the right hon. Gentleman's wish was that the Paper for Friday was
  602
  already full, and he was sure the right hon. Gentleman would not wish the discussion on this subject to be taken at an early hour in the morning. ["Go on."] He had, therefore, no option in the matter. He could not go on without consent, and that consent he could not get.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
  MR. HUNTsaid, he had endeavoured to give the right hon. Gentleman every facility consistent with the privileges of the House; but, as representatives of the taxpayers, they had a right to have these matters freely discussed in the usual mode in Committee of Ways and Means. There were some other parts of the financial scheme on which he had intended to make some remarks on the Resolution granting 6d. in the pound for income tax being brought forward. As the right hon. Gentleman now proposed to report Progress, he supposed that it behaved him (Mr. Hunt) to make his remarks on the present occasion. He was anxious that the different considerations which, in his opinion, ought to be submitted to the Committee should be brought before it at an early period, in order that there might be time for a full discussion, and that Members might have ample opportunity of considering the issues raised. The discussion on the subject at the present time would, therefore, rather assist the right hon. Gentleman than otherwise. Now, he wished, first of all, to go into the statement of the right hon. Gentleman with regard to the revenue and surplus he anticipated, and the mode in which it was proposed to deal with the surplus. The right hon. Gentleman had estimated his Revenue at £72,855,000, and stated the other night that he assumed the income tax was to be at 6d., by which means he showed a very large surplus. But it was a question whether the income tax ought to be assumed at 6d. for the purpose of such a calculation. Before any Votes were taken for the Abyssinian War the income tax stood at 4d. On the first occasion when a Vote was taken in respect of the Abyssinian War an extra 1d. was put on the income tax. Now, it would be remembered that in his statement last year he (Mr. Hunt) made a distinction between a tax that was ne-

  603
  cessary for ordinary purposes and a tax required for special purposes such as the Abyssinian War, and on that occasion 2d. was added to the income tax for the purpose of defraying the war charge. The right hon. Gentleman said that the Revenue of next year would amount to £72,855,000, but in reply to that he (Mr. Hunt) had asserted the other evening that the right hon. Gentleman ought to take off about £3,000,000 from that in respect of the sum which represented the war tax. That £3,000,000 must be divided into two parts. The estimated Revenue of the right hon. Gentleman contained within it the arrears of the war tax of last year. Last year he (Mr. Hunt) estimated that the whole of the tax would not be collected within the year, but that about £1,100,000 would remain to be collected in the current year. But when the right hon. Gentleman stated the other night that there was a deficit on his (Mr. Hunt's) estimate for income tax, the right hon. Gentleman did not inform the House, as he would probably have done if the Estimate had been his own, that there had been no loss of revenue but merely a postponement of collection. The right hon. Gentleman did not think fit to make that explanation, but the Third Lord of the Treasury admitted that, although there was a deficit, no loss to the Revenue would accrue. He believed that in the Revenue which the right hon. Gentleman now estimated, about £1,250,000 would be due to the arrears of the war tax. It was necessary, then, to deduct from the right hon. Gentleman's estimate of Revenue the 2d. of income tax which would fall due within the year. He took that at £1,780,000. That would leave a Revenue of £71,075,000, still containing the arrears of that 2d. of income tax to which he had alluded. Taking the expenditure at £68,223,000, the surplus remaining would be £2,852,000. The right hon. Gentleman stated, the other night, that he expected to gain by the conversion of the assessed taxes into a license tax, and by the alteration of the period of collection, £3,350,000. That would give him a surplus of £6,202,000. The right hon. Gentleman said the Abyssinian liabilities were £4,600,000, and when that sum was deducted from the corrected surplus, after taking away the war 2d. of income tax, the real surplus he would have to
  604
  deal with, after his gains by the proposed changes, would be £1,602,000. Then the right hon. Gentleman proposed to make remissions, independent of the income tax, to the extent of £2,050,000; so that even with the fifth Id. of income tax he would have a deficit of £448,000. He made those explanations in order that it might be understood by the Committee and the public that the right hon. Gentleman had not taken off 1d. of the income tax. What the right hon. Gentleman virtually did was to put on 1d. of income tax. By his scheme—and he gave him every credit for its ingenuity as far as related to the income tax, the land tax, and the house duty—he proposed to gain £3,350,000. But at whose expense were those gains to be made? What taxes did he operate upon in order to get them? Why, upon the direct taxes; and so far as the inconvenience occasioned to the tax-payers went, it was an inconvenience to the very persons on whom the right hon. Gentleman sought to impose 1d. of income tax. Therefore, the payers of direct taxation might well question the propriety of that 1d. being imposed to enable the right hon. Gentleman to make what would no doubt be very popular in the country—namely, the different remissions which he proposed. Let it not be supposed that that 1d. was necessary to meet the liabilities for Abyssinia; the right hon. Gentleman's clever scheme would do that without recourse to that extra 1d., and still leave them a considerable surplus. So that, in point of fact, that extra 1d. was put on, not to pay off the Abyssinian claim, but to enable him to make remissions of taxation. He had stated the other night that he thought it quite possible the right hon. Gentleman might be making remissions and showing himself very generous at the expense of posterity, and he still believed there was some ground for that apprehension. He would take the Revenue for the year 1870–1. It was not usual to take Estimates beyond one year, but where they were making large remissions of taxation it was justifiable to look a little to the future. He would take the Revenue of 1870–1, then, exactly on the basis of the right hon. Gentleman's calculations for the present year, taking off the extra 2d. of income tax and leaving that impost at 4d., and reckoning the other taxes as being the same as now, and

  605
  also taking the expenditure at the same amount. According to that calculation the Revenue of 1870–1 would be £70,075,000, and the expenditure £68,223,000, leaving a balance of £1,852,000, from which had to be deducted £1,200,000 as the arrears of income tax which they would get in this year's Revenue. Taking the remission on fire insurance at £730,000, on corn at £900,000, on locomotion and assessed taxes at £420,000, these items taken together made remissions to the extent of £2,050,000. Now, the surplus they would have next year would not suffice for those remissions by the amount of about £400,000, unless they took into account the arrears of assessed taxes that the right hon. Gentleman would collect in the year 1870–1, and which he took at about £700,000. But the question was this—would they be able to collect those? The right hon. Gentleman the other night spoke of certain halcyon days during which, or for nine months, no assessed taxes would be levied. ["No!"] That was what the right hon. Gentleman said the other night, and he was also so reported in the newspapers. [Mr. LOWE was understood to say he had spoken, not of assessed taxes not being "levied," but of their not being "incurred."] But who were to enjoy those "halcyon days?" Only those persons who had no articles on which the duties were levied before the 5th of April of this year, and who afterwards began to keep them. Such persons would escape altogether for those nine months; but there would be no halcyonic been at all conferred on those who next year would not only have to pay the new license duties, but also the duties in respect of the articles kept by them before the 5th of April, 1869. When the alteration was made in regard to the dog duty—the first experiment in the conversion of assessed taxes into license duties—the assessed tax on dogs was reduced in the last year of the assessment by the amount of the Excise duty. The Excise duty was 5s. in that case, and the tax having being reduced from 12 s. to 7s. no complaint was made that people had to pay in one year taxes for two years. From the expression used by the right hon. Gentleman the other night he had thought the owners of articles now liable to assessed taxes were going to get something of a boon; but from the right hon. Gentleman's
  606
  correction, and from the Papers before them, it seemed they were to have no been whatever, but would be subject to a very considerable inconvenience. If the spirit of the arrangement carried out in respect to the dog tax were observed in this case, the persons who paid the new license duties on the 1st of January should be allowed to deduct the amount of those license duties, or a part of it, from the payment of the second moiety of the assessed taxes duo from them on the 5th of April following for the year 1868–9. With regard to the balances of the Exchequer, the hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Mr. Crawford) the other night said it was important to consider what the effect of the right hon. Gentleman's propositions would be upon those balances, and he also added that the right hon. Gentleman's secret had been well kept. From that latter remark he gathered that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had devised that plan without any communication whatever with the Governor or the Deputy Governor of the Bank of England. [Mr. CRAWFORD: Hear, hear '] He confessed that he was rather surprised that the secret had been kept from his hon. Friend who sat behind the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because he knew it had been the practice for Chancellors of the Exchequer to consult confidentially those great authorities on a point on which they were so competent, whatever might be their politics, to give their advice, which he was sure would be given in the frankest manner and without the least risk of any breach of confidence. He repeated, therefore, his surprise that that part of the scheme—changing the period when some of the taxes would be paid into the Exchequer account at the Bank—had been kept entirely secret from those authorities. That was a matter as to which the right hon. Gentleman ought to offer some explanation when next he addressed the House, because the question of the Exchequer balances must be regarded as very important in two financial points of view. And first, as respected the power which the Government had over the money necessary for the service of the country, by the proposition of the right hon. Gentleman (taking the figures of 1868 as their guide), £2,600,000 or thereabouts, would not be paid into the Bank in October for income tax which was

  607
  customary so to be paid. Then, he believed, that on the Income Tax account about £4,000,000 would be paid into the Bank in January, more than was usually so paid in. Next, with regard to the land and assessed taxes, he believed that about £1,500,000 would not be paid into the Exchequer account at the Bank, at the usual period in October, and the corresponding period in April, but that £3,000,000 more than was customary would be paid into that account in January. If that were so—and he did not pledge himself to particulars, but had given the figures as far as he could ascertain them—there would be in October £4,000,000 less paid into the Bank than usual, and in the following January about £7,000,000 more than usual would be paid in. Now, that would be important in two points of view. In the first place, because the Exchequer would not be fed from the usual sources of supply in the first period, the Government might between October and January be brought into a position of considerable embarrassment, in order to obtain the supplies for that part of the year. But when January came, there would be a larger sum than would be necessary, either to re-pay the advances that might have been required, or for the immediate purpose of paying the charge on the Consolidated Fund, or for the Supply services. Well, if that were so, he would really ask for information from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because the right hon. Gentleman might have made some arrangements which would neutralize any possible inconvenience on this head; and if he had, the Committee of Ways and Means would give a fitting opportunity for affording the necessary explanations. If the case were as he had put it, the Government might require large advances from the Bank, in order to carry on the services of the country up to January, and for those advances it would have to pay interest; and then they might afterwards have deposited at the Bank a very large sum beyond what would be required for the immediate service of the country, and for which they would get no interest. If that were so, it would, in his opinion, require consideration, whether the deposits in the Bank in January should not bear interest, in order to meet the large charge which would be occasioned by the advances which the Bank had
  608
  made previously to January. Then there was another point which did not affect the Government directly, but did very materially concern the public out-of-doors and the discount trade—and that was, if the Government caused a great disturbance of the market, and a great transfer, from one quarter to another, at an unusual period of the year, of the possession of money. Instead of a large amount of money coming into the Bank and being available for general purposes—either for the purposes of the Government, or the supply of the market—the Bank would be minus in supplies from October to January; and then, at the beginning of the year, a large sum would be coming in from different sources—among others, from sources which were now in the habit of feeding the discount market; and, thus, they would put into the hands of the Bank the whole control, if it liked to use it, of the discount market. That was a matter to which the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to have alluded when he introduced his scheme. The right hon. Gentleman had alluded to the working of his scheme, as far as it related to the resources of the Government, and to their having money in the public accounts at the Bank for the purpose of carrying on the public service, but he did not refer to it so far as it might affect the general money market. As far as he had been able to consider the matter, in the very short interval that had been afforded them, it appeared to him that the course proposed by the right hon. Gentleman might create an extraordinary fluctuation in the rate of discount; because, if the Bank, which had now tolerably equally throughout the year the command of the Government resources, were starved of its supply during one-half the year, and then had got a better supply than usual at another period, it could enforce its own terms on the market; and that was putting the Bank of England in a position which the House should consider whether it ought to allow it to occupy. These were matters worth an evening's discussion; and, as the right hon. Gentleman had not seen his way to proceeding with his Resolutions that night, he should very much like to hear the opinions of persons of authority, as to the probable effect of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's

  609
  scheme on the money market and the Bank of England. He regretted that there had been lost to the House at the last election many gentlemen who would have been able to speak with authority on this subject. There were Mr. Kirkman Hodgson, Mr. Thomson; Hankey, and Mr. Hubbard, who always took part in debates of that nature, and were capable of guiding the House. These were very delicate questions, when they were engaged in discussing the transfer of such large sums from one period of the year to another, and no doubt the change must considerably affect the money market. He was glad however the General Election had spared a Gentleman of great authority whom he saw opposite, his hon. Friend the Member for the City (Mr. Crawford), because he occupied a very responsible position with respect to the Bank, and to-morrow his position would be still more responsible. He hoped, therefore, his hon. Friend would not content himself with the few observations he had made the other night, but would give his opinion more fully with respect to the proposed changes. There were, he had no doubt, other hon. Gentlemen who had lately come into the House, who were good authorities on this subject. He should like that some of these hon. Members, with whose business capabilities their Friends were acquainted, would give their opinions, and he had no doubt they would command the confidence of the House. There was another point which he would mention, and that was the effect of these alterations upon the individual tax-payer. That was a matter which would, perhaps, excite more general interest out-of-doors than the point of view from which he had just looked at the propositions of the right hon. Gentleman. The other evening, when the right hon. Gentleman announced his scheme, there was not entire unanimity in the House with respect to the periods when the payments of the different taxes would in future have to be made. But any doubts on that head had been cleared up by a Paper which had been laid on the table by the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury. From that Paper it appeared that in January, 1870, the income tax on Schedules A, B, and I) for the financial year 1869–70 would be payable. On the same day payment might also be required of the land tax
  610
  and the house duty for that year. On the same day payment would have to be made for license duty for articles kept in the year commencing on the 1st of January, while on the 5th of April following the second moiety of the assessed taxes would be payable. He had referred to the last subject before, but, with respect to those payments of income tax, land tax, house duty and license duty for the whole year being all concentrated upon the month of January, or that quarter, he should not be at all surprised if they were to have strong remonstrances from the tax-payers against allowing all these taxes to fall for payment within that time. He would reserve his opinion upon that matter now, as he had done the other night, because it was impossible to say until the question was more fully discussed how far the arrangement would affect the pockets of the tax-payers. With regard to the income tax persons were sometimes not familiar with the different classes of taxation which came under the different letters; but, on referring to the sixteenth page of the last Report issued by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, they would find it explained, and would see that the tax collected under the classes denominated C and E was very unimportant in comparison with the full amount, and that it was the Schedules A, B, and D which brought in far the greater part of the sum received. In 1868, for instance, Schedules A, B, and D brought in considerably over £5,000,000, the total produce of the tax being £6,840,000. Then the land tax brought in a little over £1,000,000, and the house duty a little over £1,000,000 also, and these were the very taxes which, according to the scheme now proposed, would be reduced to £1,500,000. He confessed he did did not understand the other day the proposition of the right hon. Gentleman, but the Paper which had been laid before the House had entirely cleared up the matter. As he understood it, then, two quarters of the income tax were to be paid in January, or, in other words, the payment of the first two quarters would be postponed from October to January. That would be in favour of the taxpayer; but the third quarter would be payable in January and the fourth quarter would be accelerated and brought back to January also. Well, people questioned whether the advantage to the tax-payer from the payment of the first

  611
  two quarters being postponed, would not be outweighed by the last quarter's tax being accelerated and made payable in January. Even supposing the general scheme were adopted, it was questionable whether it would be wise in the interests of the tax-payer to make all his payments on account of direct taxation fall in January. If, too, the Chancellor of the Exchequer could see his way to alter this, his doing so would remedy another defect in his proposal, it would prevent the Exchequer being almost empty at one time and full to repletion at another.
  MR. CRAWFOEDsaid, none lamented more than he the absence from the House of those Gentlemen mentioned by the right hon. Member for North Northamptonshire (Mr. Hunt); but, with regard to his Friend Mr. Hodgson, he was bound to remind the right hon. Gentleman that it was owing to his own friends that Mr. Hodgson was not among them. With reference to the right hon. Gentleman's remarks, which were deserving of much consideration, he had not yet had the opportunity of inquiring particularly into the sources whence the public payments were made to the Bank from one quarter to another; indeed it was not the duty of a banker to inquire as to whence his customers derived their income; his business was rather to receive the money, and have it ready for his customers when called upon. He agreed with his right hon. Friend that it was inexpedient to adopt a system which might result in large sums falling due at one particular period of the year; and there was some reason for his apprehensions that the Government would find itself short of money towards the end of the year, but he should bear in mind that, at that period of the year although the Bank would not hold the money for the Government, the public would hold it for themselves. The questions arising out of the abundance of money at the Bank in the first quarter of the year would have to be settled between the Government and the Bank authorities; and, speaking for the Bank, he was sure any proposal the Government might make would be fairly considered. Without following the right hon. Gentleman into the region of prophecy, he believed he was not very far wrong in the estimate he had made. As far as the scheme of the Chancellor of
  612
  the Exchequer depended upon the anticipation in January next of future collections, he for one was prepared to consent to it, and the opinions he had heard expressed in the City, together with the opinions of the Press, including the weekly Press, led him to believe that the scheme was generally approved by the public.
  MR. NEVILLE-GRENVILLEsaid, he had heard it frequently stated out-of-doors that they had this year a rich man's Budget and not a poor man's; and certainly there was ground for this remark. He would rather it had been otherwise as far as the assessed taxes are concerned. A person of consideration at present paid upon his armorial bearings £2 12 s. 9d.; in future, presuming the Chancellor of the Exchequer's scheme adopted, he would pay £2 2s. If he kept six servants, he paid £6 6s.; in future, he would pay £4 10 s. If three of those servants wore hair powder, he paid on that account £3 10 s. 6d.; in future, he would pay nothing. For his four stablemen he paid £4 4s.; in future he would pay £3. For his gardener he paid £1 1s., and for his two under-gardeners £1 1s.; he would in future pay £2 5s. for the three. For his two gamekeepers he paid £2 2s.; in future he would pay £1 10 s. For his two under-gamekeepers he paid £1 1s.; he would pay £1 10 s. Altogether he paid at present £21 18 s. 3d., whereas in future he would pay only £14 17 s.; or, in other words, he would gain by the Budget proposals 35 per cent. A neighbour of this more wealthy resident—say, the doctor—who now paid for the lion rampant on his forks 13 s. 2d., would have to pay £1 1s.; if he happened to employ a boy he would have to pay 15 s.; his only gain would be paying 15 s. instead of £1 1s. for his gardener. Altogether he would pay £2 11 s., instead of £1 14 s. 2d.; or, in other words, be a loser by the Budget to the extent of 30 per cent. He would be glad to see the words page, under-gardener, and stable-boy struck out of the list, as there was much difficulty in saying when a lad ceased to be a labourer and became a gardener; moreover, the tax would prevent many a person taking a boy into his employment when kindness would otherwise induce him to do so.
  MR. SAMUDAsaid, that, notwithstanding the Chancellor of the Exche-

  613
  quer's explanation, considerable doubt existed as to the effect the proposed changes would have. As he understood, it was proposed to take at once the last payment of the income tax for 1868–9; and, so far as he could learn from those he had spoken to upon the subject, at least half-a-year's tax would be governed by that proposal, half-a-year having been paid in most instances within the last few days. Then, as he understood, it was proposed in January next to take the entire of the tax for 1869–70; so that a year-and-a-half's income tax would be gathered in during the year ending the 31st March next. He understood also that the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to alter the period at which the return to the income tax was to be made, and that it was to be from January to January, instead of from April to April. [The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER: I have made no such proposal.] He was glad to find that he was misinformed upon that point, but he wished for information on the other matter.
  MR. HENLEYsaid, he wished to call attention to what appeared to be the consequence of a Paper delivered to Members that morning as to the periods at which the taxes were to be paid. The land tax was included among them; and he wished to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister whether they had well considered certain facts. In many parts of England, including the county he had the honour to represent (Oxfordshire), the land tax was 2s. in the pound, and when you come to add an halt-year's tax that brought the amount of the land tax up to 3s. in the pound. Add 9d. in the pound for income tax—that was to say 3d. and 6d., and that made 3s. 9d. in the pound. When the assessed taxes were added it would be found there was not much left out of 4s. in the pound to be paid on the first three months of the year. In the county in which he lived the land tax was as high as in any part of England; and it certainly would be a great inconvenience to many landowners to have to pay 20 per cent upon their income in three months of the year, especially the quarter in which the Christmas bills had to be provided for and paid out of the accumulations of the year. If 20 per cent of income were to be absorbed by taxes in that three months, the Christmas bills would have a very
  614
  ugly chance, and at all events would have to be postponed. The arrangement, whether it was or was not a good one in other respects, would bring great inconvenience upon some classes of people.
  MR. CRAUFURDsaid, he desired to be informed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in what way the Budget Re-solutions would affect tax-payers in Scotland, where for some time taxes had been collected in January with satisfactory results to the Exchequer and to the taxpayers themselves. What they particularly wished to know was whether they would have in January next to pay two years' taxes instead of one?
  MR. BARINGsaid, he could not help thinking that to have a surplus at one period and a want of money at another must be in some way inconvenient to the country at large. He had always supposed that it was a good rule that the Government should get money at the time it was wanted, and that it should be obtained in the way that was most convenient and least onerous to the taxpayer; but it seemed to him that the plan of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was contrary to these principles. It was not to be supposed that every year, as in this year, owing to the Abyssinian War debt, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would want the taxes of the country twelve months in advance; and if he did not, why should the House let him have them? There was no advantage in depositing money with the Chancellor of the Exchequer before it was absolutely needed. The payments of the Government were spread over the year, and why should not the payments to the Exchequer in like manner be spread over the year, except for the special reason assigned just now? It seemed to him that the principle of the gradual payment of taxes was a sound one; and it was not only unsound but it was injurious to pay money into the Treasury in the way that was least convenient and most onerous. The payment for twelve months at once fell upon special classes; the fund holder would pay twice a year; and why was an exception to be made in his case when landlord and tenant paid at once? He doubted very much whether taxpayers would find it more convenient to pay a year's taxes at the beginning of the year. If he had had to pay £100 at the end of the year, and he was called upon to pay at the beginning of the year, that £100

  615
  did not fructify in his pocket, and he lost all the interest and profit he could have made out of it during the year. In this way the tax-payer was made to pay more than it was intended he should pay, and more than he ought to pay; he was made to sacrifice the interest upon his money and the profit he might have made out of its use. It seemed to him that the system which the right hon. Gentleman proposed was fraught with very disagreeable consequences and some danger. The right hon. Gentleman said that it was very convenient that the Government should be provided with money in case of a war breaking out, but he confessed he should be sorry that every Government should always have the means of making war; and he did not see why payments should not be made into the Treasury in proportion to the regularly estimated wants of the Government, and why they should be made in anticipation of the wants of the country. The right hon. Gentleman under-estimated the inconvenience which his plan would occasion to the commercial community by the financial changes and fluctuations it involved, and he also under-estimated the- hardships and inconvenience that would be inflicted upon the taxpayers of the country, excepting the fund holders. He (Mr. Baring) trusted the question would be seriously considered by the Government and the House. As to the question of the income tax, there was always a reluctance on the part of Chancellors of the Exchequer to take anything off that tax. The right hon. Gentleman said it was just to reduce it because it was put on for the Abyssinian War, and the war was now over; but he only reduced it by 1d., whereas 2d. had been put on for the war. Surely, if it was just to take off 1d., it was just to take off 2d. We went on, however, drifting into an entire reliance for our national resources upon direct taxation. The removal of the 1s. duty upon corn, which swept away £900,000 of Revenue, might take away a sentimental grievance; but 1s. a quarter was only a nominal duty, and its removal would not have any practical effect upon either producer or consumer. The duty was one that pressed upon nobody and injured nobody; but, if necessity arose, it could not be replaced, and we must fall back upon the income tax. If the £900,000 had
  616
  been taken off tea and sugar, there might have been a sensible benefit to consumers. If the income tax were taken off when not needed, there was an excuse for putting it on again in case of emergency; but to put it on for an emergency and not take it off afterwards was a financial policy which might lead to serious consequences; it would affect industry, and instead of giving the labourer a cheap breakfast, it might lead to his having no breakfast at all. He would urge upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister the desirability of adopting some arrangement which might remove anxiety in the City, and by which the payments to the Revenue might be better regulated.
  MR. MONKsaid, he desired to call attention to the wording of the sixth Resolution, which, he believed, contained one of those ambiguities which so frequently led to the evasion of the payment of taxes. By this clause payment was provided "for every male servant employed, either wholly or partially," in the performance of certain duties therein enumerated. Many persons entertained the idea that this referred only to such servants as were employed by the year, though he presumed it referred equally to those employed for a shorter period also. Gentlemen frequently placed an extra hand in their stables during some of the winter months, or for some period of the year employed additional men in watching their preserves, and the men so employed were for the most part agricultural labourers, in respect of whom no taxes were paid. He would suggest either that licenses should be granted for a shorter period than a year, by which means he believed a gain instead of a loss would accrue to the revenue, or that the word "persons" should be substituted for "servants." The result, he believed, would be to obtain the payment of the taxes under this Resolution from those who at present evaded it, or considered themselves to be not liable to it.
  MR. STEPHEN CAVEsaid, he agreed with his hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Baring), but thought enough had not been said as to the danger and inconvenience which must, under the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman, arise from the heavy payments which would be made at one

  617
  period of the year, and the absence of such payments at others. Of course, in the weekly accounts of the Bank of England, the public would see at certain times a large addition to the item of deposits, and whether those deposits remained in the Bank or were employed to feed the discount market, the result would naturally be to lower the rate of interest, cause considerable disturbance in the money market, and occasionally to foster undue speculation. When the rate of interest was unduly depressed speculation, as everyone knew, was the result. At another time of the year these funds would be rapidly diminished again, and that might cause a panic, for panics had been caused simply by an abnormal abstraction of money from the Bank at one of those periods of the year in which there was an ordinary drain. In such matters as these the public-were very unreasoning, and it was extremely likely that if there were any disturbance in the commercial or political world generally at such a moment the abstraction of money in this way would cause a panic. We could not be too cautious in these matters; and, though the Bank of England would no doubt acquiesce in any arrangement which might be thought necessary to obviate this inconvenience, he thought it would be better if the Committee, before assenting to these Resolutions, were made acquainted with the plan that might be proposed, for the purpose of avoiding what was at once a source of inconvenience and danger.
  MR. W. FOWLERsaid, he agreed in the opinion that considerable danger might arise from the payment of very large sums into the Exchequer at one time, and the total absence of such payments at others. His calculation of what would be paid in the January quarter was somewhat different from that which had been estimated by the right hon. Gentleman. He believed that £8,100,000 would be paid in on account of these particular taxes, instead of £4,000,000. which would be the amount under ordinary circumstances. The result would be that the Government must either have a large sum of money continually lying idle, or they would at particular times of the year be compelled to borrow very largely. It was obvious that a great loss to the Government and a great loss to the nation would accrue if large
  618
  sums of money were allowed to lie idle; and, on the other hand, if the Government were known, as they must be from the Bank Returns, to be large borrowers, the public would think it much against their interest, especially if the money market should be in a sensitive condition. Hon. Gentlemen, he was afraid, scarcely appreciated the delicate nature of the money market, or were fully alive to the fact that the abstraction of £1,000,000 had frequently caused the Bank rate to rise 1 per cent. The abstraction of £1,000,000 of bullion had before now gone far to create a panic in Lombard Street, and he perfectly remembered an occasion when the abstraction of £1,000,000 from Scotland had seriously affected the money market. The Chancellor of the Exchequer might, perhaps, say that such a result was inevitable, as it was a necessary part of his scheme. Appreciating that scheme as he did very highly, he still thought with the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Hunt) that the Committee ought to know something more in detail before they sanctioned the arrangements proposed. No question in the whole of the Budget was, in his opinion, so important. The Bank Returns in the three years after the commercial crisis showed that there were only £7,250,000 of notes unemployed, and of that amount £4,000,000 consisted of reserves of bankers. That state of things was not satisfactory, and anything that threatened to create an oscillation in so sensitive a money market must be attended with danger.
  SIR GEORGE JENKINSONsaid, he had had the advantage of seeing some of his constituents and others in the country since the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made his financial statement, and his attention had been called to the hardship which would result from the compulsory payment of such large sums of money in the course of six months. His constituents had urged that in October they would have to pay half-a-year's assessed taxes, in January a whole year's assessed taxes and in come tax, and in the April following they would have to pay a second moiety of the assessed taxes now due. Thus, in the course of six months the public would have to pay two years' taxes. He believed the hardship resulting from this had scarcely been realized. He would suggest as a means of alleviating the

  619
  hardship, and also of bringing money quickly into the Exchequer, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should allow a discount of 10 per cent to those who would be willing to pay within three months, say by the 1st of July, the one year's assessed taxes due this April, and half of which would, under ordinary circumstances, be payable in October and the other in April next. If he would do this, and forego for one year more the remission of the 1s. duty on corn, the right hon. Gentleman might reduce the income tax to 4d., as it was before the Abyssinian War. As to the corn duty there were many people, himself included, who were even ignorant that such a duty existed; and he was sure that it was a tax which nobody felt, and the remission of which would not benefit the consumer, though it might benefit the dealer and the miller.
  MR. M'LARENsaid, he had nothing to say against the Budget generally, but he wished the Chancellor of the Exchequer to correct a small oversight in the Resolution affecting fire insitrances. Insurance offices in Scotland had requested him to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to this matter. In England the fire insurance duty expired on the 25th June, but in Scotland all fire insurances were made to expire on the 15th of May. If the Resolution passed in its present shape the consequence would be that every fire insurance office in Scotland would be put to a disadvantage as compared with the offices in England. He therefore asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to consent to this alteration—that the duty on fire insurances in Scotland cease on the 15th of May. The difference as far as the revenue was concerned would be very trifling; but the convenience which that alteration would produce to parties concerned would be very great. In the fourth Resolution, relating to assessed taxes, a difference had been made, but that was against Scotland; for, while the old rates of taxation continued in England only up to the 5th of April, they were continued in Scotland to the 25th of May, or seven weeks longer.
  MR. ALDERMAN SALOMONSsaid, that the consequences of the earlier collection of taxes upon the money market had, he thought, been much exaggerated, and it would be extremely undesirable that it should go forth to the
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  world that so trifling a change as was then contemplated was ever likely to produce a monetary panic. No doubt it was right that the payments and receipts of the Government should be so arranged as to avoid, if possible, anything like disturbance in the circulation of capital by the inexpedient transfer to London of deposits employed by the country banks in accommodating their local customers; and the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman the Governor of the Bank of England (Mr. Crawford) that arrangements should be entered into with this view between the Bank and the Government was a very fair one. It was impolitic to exaggerate the effect on the money market of the plan proposed, which was a mere matter of account; and, as to the Budget generally, he believed that it had been received with general assent throughout the country, and that the more people thought of it the more they would like it. He had heard that part of it which proposed to take off the taxes on public conveyances spoken of with much satisfaction, as also the doing away with the licenses for selling tea.
  MR. CHARLEYsaid, he was gratified at the reduction of the duty on public vehicles, but he hoped that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would re-consider his proposition to do away with the distinction between the duty on six, and seven-day cabs. It was not fair that the cabmaster whose cab plied for hire on six days in the week should pay as much duty as the man who sent his cab into the streets every day.
  MR. J. B. SMITHsaid, he thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer had brought forward an admirable Budget; but he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would pay attention to what had been said as to the danger of a disturbance in the money market in consequence bf the unusual payments which would at a particular period be made into the Bank of England. He considered that the 1st of February would be a better time for the collection of the taxes than the time fixed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. January was a time in which people were generally straitened for money, and he would suggest that to lessen the pressure on the tax-payer payment of the £8,000,000 should be so divided that one-half should come in on February 1, and the other half on

  621
  August 1. The assessed taxes and house duty might be paid at the one period, and the property and income tax at the other.
  MR. READsaid, that two of his alter-native suggestions had been adopted in the Budget—the repeal of the fire insurance duty and the abolition of that last rag of Protection—the 1s. duty on corn. He feared, however, that the benefit to the poorer classes had been greatly exaggerated. Not half of the £900,000 revenue for corn was paid for wheat and flour, and statistics showed that since Free Trade the average price of wheat had not been reduced more than 11, or at all events not more than 12 per cent, and bread not to half that amount, but the value of wheat in foreign countries had advanced fully 20 per cent. When he, as an agriculturist, considered the Budget, he must say that whilst they caught it in several ways they got no benefit from it whatever. As to the assessed taxes, farmers generally employed a boy in the village as groom; they now paid 10 s. 6d. tax on this account, and j would in future pay 15 s. Their horses had been hitherto taxed at a loss rate than others, but now the farmer, the parson, and the doctor were to pay the same as other people; and, as to four-wheeled carriages drawn by one horse, he could not understand why there should be an extra 2s. added to the £2 tax now paid, while a carriage with its pair was reduced from £3 10 s. to two guineas, Whilst the farmers had themselves received no remission of taxation they were glad that other interests would receive the benefits which were contemplated by the right hon. Gentleman. The farmers would have to pay two years' taxes in twelve months, and in January, 1870, soon after they had settled their rent and paid their tradesmen's bills, they would be called on to pay their landlord's property and land tax, and the money would remain out of their pockets for six months or more. Great credit was taken for the fact that 600,000 dogs had been brought under the operation of the new Excise license; but it should be borne in mind that half the dogs in the country were exempt from taxation under the old system. This being so, they must not expect that there would be a very great increase from the transfer of these other taxes from the parish officer to the Excise for collection.
  622
  It was of very great interest to merchants in his county to know when the remission of the duty upon corn would take place, and he would suggest—as no drawback would be allowed—that the abolition should take place at the termination of the present financial quarter.
  MR. NORWOODsaid, he agreed that there might be great inconvenience to commerce in consequence of the usual amount of revenue not going into the coffers of the Bank of England in October, and he hoped that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would give his attention to the matter. It should be borne in mind that the autumn was a time when there was very often tightness in the money market, owing to the increased volume of business transactions, and to the fact that at the end of the year many persons were anxious to make their balances at their bankers as large as they possibly could. At the present time our money market was in a some-what delicate position, owing to the Bank of England reserve, and the Government balances being much lower than they ought to be. Allusion had been made to the assistance that the Bank might render to the right hon. Gentleman; but he himself had not that entire faith in the management of the Bank that some other people had, and believed that it would have enough to do to protect its own position without assisting the Government. Many in the City regarded the point to which he had referred with very great anxiety, and he entreated the Chancellor of the Exchequer to take it seriously into consideration. As to the abolition of the duty on wheat, he found that there was a very general impression that the poor man would get nothing from that reduction, but that the advantage would be shared between the importers, the miller, and others engaged in the trade; and he must say that he concurred in this impression. He could not concur in the remark that the farmers would derive no benefit from the Budget, for he thought that they would get considerable benefit from the taking off the 1s. duty on maize. The duty on this article was something like 3 per cent, and therefore it was an important remission. It was of great pecuniary interest to many persons to know when the abolition of the duty would take place, and he believed that the practice had hitherto been that as

  623
  soon as a Resolution authorizing the introduction of a Bill for the reduction of a duty was reported to the House, the reduction took effect from that moment. There was this peculiarity about the present Budget that probably three or four weeks would elapse before it was formally sanctioned; and this period would be one of real hardship to those who had large stocks of grain on hand. He would suggest, that if the House confirmed the details of the Budget, those who paid the 1s. duty should be repaid as rebate the whole amount collected from them from the present date.
  MR. BAZLEYsaid, he thought that much of the inconvenience which, it had been alleged, attached to the admirable Budget of the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be obviated by the adoption, in respect of some of the assessed taxes, of a system of half-yearly licenses, so that there would be two collections in the course of the year. This would enable the trader to select the article that would suit his purposes during the first half and the second half of the year. As to the income tax, it might be paid by two instalments in April and October.
  MR. ALDERMAN LUSKsaid, the Budget was universally accepted out-of-doors as an excellent one, and the right hon. Gentleman was much complimented on his ability in framing it; and he was therefore astonished that, in that House, one Member after another rose and found something wrong in the Budget, starting grievances which had never before been heard of. With respect to the alleged inconvenience to the money market that might arise from the payment of a large amount of taxes at one time, why, what was the whole amount of the taxes that would be paid at the time indicated—£2,000,000 or £3,000,000—compared to the money transactions in the ordinary course of business? In the Clearing House in one week the transactions amounted to something like £60,000,000, £70,000,000, and £80,000,000. Then, as to the proposed extension of the time for the remission of the corn duty of 1s. per quarter, it really was scarcely worthy of consideration. The public would not pay much attention to the matter one way or another, while they would derive great advantage from the corresponding remission of the duty on arrowroot, sago, and
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  other articles of that kind. He therefore hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would persevere with his scheme, the objections to which were, in his opinion, mere creatures of the imagination.
  MR. MAGUIREsaid, he must congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the success of his Budget. At the opening of his speech he regarded it with despondency, but out of darkness there came light, and he must now call the right hon. Gentleman the Professor Anderson of finance. He trusted, however, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not harshly interfere with those who were engaged in the corn trade. He held in his hand a telegram from one of his own constituents, who was a very large importer, and who represented that unless there was a rebate of duty he would be a very considerable loser. He thought the case worthy of consideration, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer could afford to deal liberally and fairly.
  MR. BONHAM-CARTEEsaid, he wished to direct attention to the sixth Resolution. There were several small charges made which had never been made before, and it was desirable that these should be pointed out at once, that they might know exactly what the Chancellor of the Exchequer meant by them. With regard to servants, he presumed it was not intended to bring under charge those who were only occasionally employed; and as to carriages, waggons and carts had never been charged, only carriages with springs being chargeable. Then, again, "every horse" was charged; were they to conclude that there were to be no exceptions whatever? What number and what classes of horses were to be brought into charge? Many horses worn out for riding or draught were kept for breeding. It would be convenient to know whether all horses were to be charged or not.
  MR. PIM, whose observations were inaudible, was understood to refer to the case of the cab-owners of Dublin.
  MR. GOURLEYsaid, he thought that there ought to be some difference made in the tax charged upon precarious incomes and that upon incomes derived from realized property. The plan of the Chancellor for assessing income when first propounded had quite a magical appearance; but, on going into the matter,

  625
  he found they would have to pay fifteen months' income tax, instead of twelve months', and not only so, but they would have to pay twelve months of it in advance. This would take away a large amount of money from tax-payers, and seriously disturb the ordinary money resources of trade. It would be much better to collect the taxes in the usual way.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QUER: I will now, Sir, reply to the questions which have been asked of me, begging hon. Members to excuse me if I should happen to omit any. And first, with regard to Scotland, the hon. Member for Edinburgh (Mr. M'Laren) wishes to know what is to be done for Scotland in regard to insurances. I cannot definitely answer the question to-night; but the case will be taken into consideration, and I will see that no injustice is done to Scotland. I can give him that assurance. Then the hon. Member for the Ayr Burghs (Mr. Craufurd) asks whether Scotland is included in the Paper delivered to-day. Yes, it is included. Scotland is already in that position which some hon. Gentleman seem to regard with so much terror. In Scotland, the land tax, the house tax, the assessed taxes, the income and property tax are all levied in the month of January; and the object is, as far as possible, to bring this country to the state in which Scotland is at present. I turn to the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Baring), who brought a charge against me which certainly I did not expect. He says the tendency of every Chancellor of the Exchequer is to rest everything on direct taxes, and especially on the income tax; but, considering that I repeal assessed taxes and the duties on locomotion, which are direct taxes, and take off 1d. of the income tax, when everybody anticipated that 1d. would be put on, I cannot see why he should bring such an accusation against me. Then he lays down a rule, which he says has been grossly violated, that is that it is the duty of the Government to impose taxes at the time most convenient to the people, and that we ought to take the money when we want it, and not sooner. Now, if we were to act on that rule, we should, have a public officer who would have to make out a list of the wants of the Government every day, and send messengers to people as to the time when it would be most
  626
  convenient for them to pay the taxes, taking the rich first, because they would be best able to pay, and the poor afterwards. No doubt it would be very pleasant for some people that their taxes should be collected every day, or twice a day; but he was afraid that if such a course were pursued they would be ruined by the cost of collection. Hon. Members must take this remark as an answer to many questions that had been raised. The object is to have a system of licenses and to have it simple. We must make up our minds to be content to charge some a little more and some less for the general great benefit of collecting the taxes in this manner. The same answer I must give to the proposal to take different times of the year to collect the taxes. You must have a different collection, and that would lead to an immense extra expense. The principle I propose is to draw the whole of the taxes within this financial year; and if the House cannot make up its mind to this sacrifice it cannot have the remissions of the Budget. But then it is said that it is a financial evil and mischief to have the whole of the taxes paid in to the fourth quarter of the financial year. It is an evil and a mischief, and I particularly called attention to the matter. In fact, the House will do me the justice to admit that there has hardly been any observation made tonight which I did not anticipate in bringing in the Budget. It is a mischief, and I wish we could have had the benefits at a less price; but we cannot, and the question is whether the House is willing to pay the price. But hon. Gentlemen tell me. that by paying a large sum into the Exchequer in one quarter of the year, and less in another, we shall have panics, that we shall derange commerce and frighten the money market. I can only say, with all respect to the money market, that it must take care of itself. If you wish to obtain an object the plan is to fix your eyes steadily upon it, to adopt the necessary means to attain it, and to put aside minor consequences and considerations. If, on the contrary, you wish to fail, you will try to do two things at once—to carry your object and conciliate this interest and the other. My object is at once to carry my Budget and to introduce economy in the collection of the public revenue, so as to make the payment of the taxes contemporaneous

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  with the time in which they are incurred, and this object can alone be effected by collecting them at the beginning of the financial year. And this being so, and being the matter with which the Government, as a Government, are principally concerned, I prefer this to studying the convenience of the money market, especially as the money market is composed of men of great ability, whose wits are sharpened to a preternatural keenness by giving their attention to one subject, and who are perfectly able to foresee events and to guard against them, particularly events which come in regular course. When a great and unexpected calamity overtakes the money market, no doubt, it causes great havoc and devastation, but it would be inexcusable if the money market were taken by surprise by the collection of the funds of the Government in January when they knew that this is a part of a regular and organized system of finance. If gentlemen cannot foresee what is coming after such full notice it will be clear that they mistook their vocation when they went into the money market. The hon. Member for Huntingdon scarcely does himself and his friends justice, but, taking these charges at the very worst, I would ask, is it worth while to incur additional expense, or forego the collection of debts that are justly due to the State, to save gentlemen in the City the trouble of calculating whether money will be dearer or cheaper at a particular part of the year? I have been asked to consider whether the inconvenience cannot be in some measure alleviated, and I have considered the subject. I am sanguine that we shall find means of alleviating any inconvenience and suffering in many different ways. I can hardly go into the matter in detail when the event is so long off; but, with regard to the inconvenience that will arise from the new mode of levying the taxes, I am sanguine enough to think that when the system is once sanctioned by the House means will be found of working it. If we find ourselves without money in October we can borrow it, and if we are likely to have a large quantity of money in hand in January, February, and March we can then re-pay it. [Mr. HUNT: But can you lend it?] I am not aware that it is the business of the Government, which is the largest debtor in the country, to lend money. But if we had
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  money to lend I should much prefer not to take it from the people. There are, however, two or three circumstances which would diminish this difficulty and prevent any great disparity. One is that we should borrow from the Bank. Another is that we should borrow from ourselves as bankers for the very large sums that are in our control. We could so arrange matters with the Commissioners of the National Debt, who have the management of the savings banks, that, instead of investing the money in their hands in October, they should lend it to the Government till January, and that we should then pay them back. Or, in case of utter desperation, we could borrow from the public itself by means of Exchequer Bills at short dates. There is a difficulty and an obstacle in the way, no doubt, but if anyone thinks he could draw £3,350,000 out of the pockets of mankind without some difficulty and inconvenience he is very much mistaken. I am afraid of misrepresenting what the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hunt) said, because, as I understand it, it does not appear to me to stand the test of logic or reason. He seemed to think that he had a sort of claim upon that part of the revenue which he imposed himself, and that I had no right to take credit for the £2,000,000 of income tax because he imposed it, and not I. But when I made that estimate it was necessary to begin with something. In point of fact, there was really no income tax at all, because it had died out; but I imagined that the House, which had given the right hon. Gentleman an income tax, would renew it, and I took that as the basis of my calculations. The right hon. Gentleman had proposed an income tax of 6d. to pay for the Abyssinian War, and as I found a very large sum owing for that war, I assumed that the House would continue it, and without reference to what I was going to do, I took that for the basis of the calculation I laid before the House. I had to lay before the House, in the first instance, the revenue as it was bequeathed to me by the right hon. Gentleman, and then the expenditure and the deficit as it stood. When I had done that I had to consider what Ways and Means I could find. I did find certain Ways and Means which on the basis of 6d. in the pound on the income tax would yield £3,350,000. I added that to the surplus, and out of

  629
  that I found that I could pay off the Abyssinian debt and reduce certain taxes, among which was 1d. of the income tax itself. I should like to say a few words on the subject of the Paper which I laid upon the table this morning. I have said that it is impossible to raise £3,350,000 without inflicting suffering on some one; but I do think it is surprising to see how little suffering we do, after all, inflict. Firstly, with regard to the income tax, it has been shown that there is a clear gain to the public of the interest on one quarter on the transaction, although £1,500,000 is brought into the financial year without any extra burden. On the income tax it has been shown that the tax-payer will gain the forbearance of two quarters at the cost of one quarter in respect of which his payment was to be called for sooner than at present, while in the mere matter of payment the tax-payer lost nothing by the advance he was asked to make, and the Exchequer gained £1,500,000. It might be said that this sum will only be obtained by invading the resources of future years. But what is the fact? It is true that 1870 takes the £1,500,000, out of 1871; but then 1871 will in like manner take it out of 1872, and so each year will take the money from its successor, and this process may go on to the end of time, although how it will be settled when the world comes to an end I am at a loss to know. It comes into the account just as if the Emperor of China had sent it to us. The same process is repeated in the case of the land and the house tax. The great point to be considered is that the money is obtained without increasing any man's burdens. You give the tax-payer the forbearance of three months, and you ask him to anticipate another three months, the difference to the public being that you get £950,000 drawn from the resources of next year into this financial year. But next year will draw in like manner upon its successor. That is a startling and large result. As regards the assessed taxes there will be, not an injustice, but a pressure upon particular members of the community, the extent, of which I will shortly explain. In 1869 there will be two collections of assessed taxes, one in April and the other in October; and the way to see the mischief, whatever it is, that is done to the payers of assessed
  630
  taxes is to compare what would have been paid under the old plan, if it had continued, with what they will have to pay in the present year under the new system, and then strike a balance. This year the amount would be exactly the same under the old plan and under the new. Next year, under the old plan, £600,000 would have been payable in April and £600,000 in October, making £1,200,000 in all. Under the new plan they will pay £600,000 in April; but instead of paying anything in October they will pay the beginning of the following year in the month of January, a sum which, when all collected, will amount to £1,000,000, being the Excise duties substituted for the assessed taxes. Therefore in the next year these persons will pay to the public, over and above what they would pay under the existing system, the sum of £400,000. In speaking of the different months, I should warn the House that I speak of the time when the taxes become due—for the collection will extend over two or three months from that time—and accordingly there will not be the plethora that is expected. In the year 1871, then, there will be no more assessed taxes at all; but there will be this £1,000,000 license duty to pay, whilst the assessed taxes, if continued to be collected, would have amounted to £1,200,000. in that year accordingly the payers of the duty will get back £200,000 of the £400,000 which they are called on to pay in the present year; and in the year 1872 they will get back a further £200,000; so that by the end of 1872 they will, have got back the whole of this £400,000, and the account will be closed. It conies to this—that the whole mischief which we do is to take from the payer of assessed taxes—the wealthier part of the community, and well able to bear the impost—an amount of £400,000, which we pay back to them in a year or a year-and-a-half, meanwhile relieving the public to the extent of taking off 1d. from the income tax, the whole of the tire insurance duty, and redwing the taxes upon locomotion. I think it is worth while to put up with a little inconvenience for such a result as that. I hope the Committee have been able to follow these figures, which I have submitted to persons much better able than myself to judge of their accuracy, and which will be found, I believe, to con-

  631
  vey a perfectly fair statement of the case. Nothing is lost, as I have shown, upon the income tax, but something is gained; nothing whatever is lost upon the land tax or inhabited house duty; £400,000 is taken from the payers of assessed taxes, which will be re-paid within a very short time. Then there will be a permanent reduction of £200,000 a year. I need not trouble the Committee with any more arguments upon this head, but will proceed to state the arrangements which we propose to make. Since this debate commenced we have had the opportunity of considering the various suggestions of hon. Members which were brought prominently under our consideration. I am really most anxious to do everything in my power that may convenience the trade of this country; and with regard to the corn duties, I therefore propose to adopt a suggestion which will, I think, remove any reasonable objection. The Committee are aware that the Resolutions put before them are merely submitted pro formâ, and could not be made the basis of any action by the Government; they do not bind any person outside these walls. But the House will meet after the Whitsuntide vacation on the 31st of May. We hope by that time that the House will have been able to dispose of the corn duty, and we propose, supposing the change to have taken place, that the duty on corn shall stand abolished, as far as revenue goes, on the 1st of June. I am very sorry we cannot put it earlier than that; but I cannot see how, with the business there is, we can name any earlier date, for I could not constitutionally or properly act upon Resolutions submitted pro formâ and taken by consent. With regard to the Resolutions proposed tonight, we have also had the opportunity of considering the suggestions of the right hon. Gentleman opposite; and I proceed to state the result of our deliberations. We understand that there will be no objection upon the other side to our taking all the Resolutions tonight, with the exception of the sixth, to which the right hon. Gentleman objects; and then to our bringing in the Bill as soon as possible, printing in italics the parts relating to taxation, so that these will appear in the Bill, but will not form any part of it. We can then proceed to a second reading of the
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  Bill, but must obtain, if we can, before going into Committee, a Resolution of the House to sanction these alterations of taxation. Of course if we do not obtain this Resolution, the whole thing falls to the ground; if we do obtain it, we shall still be in time. I will not answer any criticisms upon the Resolutions, because these have always to be drawn in a dialect peculiar to themselves. The thing the House should look to is the Bill; for the Resolutions are always larger than the Bill, and hence may be too wide in many respects. It is the wording of the Bill by which the taxpayers will be bound—and they will have in this instance, I am sorry to say, from circumstances which are unavoidable, an unusually long period during which they will be able to scan the clauses and pass any criticisms upon them which they think proper.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: I rise chiefly for the purpose of expressing my satisfaction with the course proposed by the right hon. Gentleman, as I understand from his statement that the House will now have a full opportunity to consider the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman with regard to the assessed taxes before coming to any vote upon the subject. The only object my right hon. Friend the Member for North Northamptonshire (Mr. Hunt) had in view was that some such promise should be elicited from the right hon. Gentleman opposite. My right hon. Friend was anxious that I should explain that it was not his wish, nor the wish of any of us on this side of the House, to impede the Government business. All we desired was that sufficient time should be given for the consideration of a measure which will be of considerable interest and importance to a large number of persons. It really does seem desirable that the country should have time to think the matter over, and that an opportunity should be given to the Members of this House to discuss the question before they are asked to give an irrevocable decision upon it. The hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. Alderman Lusk) gave us just now a lecture upon our proceedings to-night, which I do not think the House of Commons altogether deserves. The hon. Member appears to think that because in Finsbury, or wherever else he has been during the last two or three days, he hears nothing but a unanimous chorus of

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  approval of the Government measure, the House of Commons is wasting time in venturing to discuss it; and he expresses himself as being perfectly astonished that anything should be said or any question raised upon any of the details of the proposal. If, however, we are sent here for any purpose whatever, it is that we may examine into matters of this kind. The questions which have been raised to-night, although not perhaps fatal to the Government proposal, deserve attention and discussion, and the House of Commons may devote some consideration to them, without being guilty of wasting time, or laying itself open to the rebuke it has just received at the hands of the hon. Member for Finsbury. My right hon. Friend pointed out to the Committee that the changes proposed to be effected would introduce a new principle into the mode of collecting the Revenue, and he observed that the result of those changes might prove inconvenient to the taxpayer, to the Exchequer, and to the trade and commerce of the country. Whether the allegations or the suggestions of my right hon. Friend are well or ill-founded, they are, at all events, of great importance. They deserve consideration and discussion on the part of those who are qualified to give an opinion upon the subject; and they also demand an answer on the part of the Government, who must, of course, have taken all these points into consideration, before making provisions of such grave interest to the country. Speaking generally, the right hon. Gentleman proposes that, instead of paying the great bulk of our taxation either quarterly or half-yearly, we shall pay it once in the year. It has been objected that such an arrangement will be inconvenient to taxpayers; and what is the answer to that objection which has been given by the right hon. Gentleman? The right hon. Gentleman does not deny, that to a certain extent, the arrangement may prove inconvenient to the tax-payers; but then he says—"You cannot have the advantages of the Budget without enduring some of these inconveniences." That might be a sufficiently good answer were it not that the Budget is for a single year, while the inconveniences resulting from the proposed changes will be permanent. The right hon. Gentleman met the reply by saying that the proposed changes would be good in themselves.
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  It may turn out that such is the case, but still there is ample reason why the nature and probable effect of the proposed changes should be fully discussed. My right hon. Friend went on further to argue that the changes, if effected, would result in inconvenience to the Exchequer, because all the money would be received in a lump at one period of the year, instead of being received by instalments. The result would be that the Exchequer would at one period of the year be empty, and at another it would be full. When the Exchequer is empty, the Chancellor of the Exchequer will have to borrow money in order to provide for the requirements of the public service, and that inconvenience will not be able to be met by lending the public money when the Exchequer is full. the point is this—if a man get his revenue monthly or quarterly, or at any other short intervals, he will always have money to meet his expenditure; but if he only receives it at very long intervals he will have to go to his banker and borrow money, for which he will have to pay interest. If he overdraw his account, he will have to pay interest for the amount overdrawn; but that would be of comparatively little importance if when he has funds his banker would allow him interest. Those, however, are not the terms on which the Government keeps its account with the Bank. The Bank allows the Government no interest for the funds which it deposits; but when the Government overdraws it has to pay interest on the sum overdrawn. It is perfectly obvious, then, that when the Government makes a change of this kind, which will leave the Exchequer bare at certain periods of the year, and will thereby increase the time during which it will have to pay interest at its bankers, if the Government is to get no benefit for the very large amount it may deposit at one particular period, the operation must so far have its disadvantages. There was another point adverted to by my right hon. Friend, but to which the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave no answer. An answer was given by the Governor of the Bank which I think showed him to be better entitled to the title of "the Professor Anderson of finance" than is the Chancellor of the Exchequer, though the title has been given to the right hon. Gentleman by one of the supporters of the Government (Mr. Maguire) I do not think there is in the

  635
  Budget anything of that art of which Professor Anderson is a master. It appears to me that the operation proposed to be performed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer is simply to call in this year money which otherwise he would not receive till next year, and to use the funds thus obtained for the purpose of remission of taxation. The Governor of the Bank stated that there will be no difficulty in the matter, but he did not explain the arrangement by which the Bank and the Government intend to get over the difficulty. I should like to have this explained to us. Perhaps there are means of getting over the difficulty. No doubt the Government considered the point, and the Governor of the Bank may be able to show us what those means are; but as yet we have not had them explained to us, except so far as the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the Government can borrow from the Bank. This brings me to the third point. The time at which the Government will want to borrow of the Bank will be the very time at which the Bank will be short, in consequence of its not having received the taxes hitherto paid in October. It has been suggested that this may cause a disarrangement of the money market; but the Chancellor of the Exchequer meet s the objection by saying—"The money market must take care of itself." That, to me, is a novel doctrine. It may be sound, but it is new, and I hope those connected with the money market and the commerce of the country will take it seriously to heart and consider it before they make up their minds as to this new arrangement. I think it is not the business of the Government to make all its arrangements with a view to the support of the money market; but when the Government is making serious changes in the system of collecting the Revenue it is rather unreasonable of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to tell us that we are not to consider what effect those changes may have on the money market. We know that the money market in this country is a very artificial affair; we know that the whole system of banking and credit in this country is affected by its fluctuations; and we ought to consider what the effect of the proposed changes might be, not in causing a panic so much as in aggravating such a disaster. I should like therefore to have a better assurance than any we have hitherto received that draining the Bank
  636
  of those large Government deposits on which it is accustomed to rely in autumn will not have a prejudicial effect on an establishment so largely engaged in supporting the credit of the country. I think disappointment was felt that this subject, one of so much importance, was not made a subject of discussion between the Government and the authorities of the Bank, and that disappointment was not removed when the Governor of the Bank got up, and, while not disguising that he looked on the difficulty as one of some gravity, said he had no doubt means would be found to meet it. Matters were not made much better for the Government when another financial authority, the hon. Member for Greenwich (Mr. Alderman Salomons), called upon us not to exaggerate the difficulty, and when the hon. Member for Hull (Mr. Norwood) and other hon. Gentlemen used language which conveyed to us that, in their opinion, also, there is ground for uneasiness. I hope that between the present time and that at which we may further discuss the question, we shall have some information on the points to which I have adverted.
  MR. CRAWFORDsaid, by way of explanation, he wished to disclaim any intention of speaking authoritatively for the Bank. He could not, on the spur of the moment, undertake to say what the Bank would concur in doing, or what it would recommend to be done. The directors of the Bank awaited events, and, when the time came, they were the humble servants of the Government. All he could say for the authorities of the Bank was that when the time arrived they would give the Government the best advice in their power.
  SIR FRANCIS CROSSLEYsaid, the right hon. Baronet (Sir Stafford North-cote) who had just resumed his seat, seemed to have great fears that the evils arising from the irregularities of the funds in hand held by the Government would be such as to be almost intolerable, and the difficulty he saw was this, that at one time of the year the Government would have to borrow, and at another time to lend. He could easily see how the borrowing could be managed by short dated Exchequer Bills, but the lending, how were they to get over that, because the Bank of England would not allow any interest? He (Sir Francis Crossley) said that was just the opposite difficulty to that in which com-

  637
  martial men found themselves placed; but, at any rate, nothing would be easier than for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to surmount this difficulty, by so arranging his finances that he would at all times rather have to borrow than to lend. But what he (Sir Francis Crossley) understood to be the great object of the Government was to make a great reform in cutting down the expense of collecting the Revenue, and he had been very often struck with the enormous per centage the Revenue cost the country collecting, especially the income tax. And the main point for the Government to turn its attention to was to cut down the expenditure. If the First Lord of the Admiralty and the Secretary for War had not done this since they came into Office, the Committee would not have now been engaged in discussing such a Budget as they now had before them, and what was the result? Why, in the first place, the Budget had dealt with a duty that for years had been occupying the attention of the Chambers of Commerce throughout the country, and the question with them was, whether to ask for its entire repeal or its reduction; but they were so fearful that it could not be afforded that they hardly ventured to ask for its total repeal, and yet it was not only one of the worst of taxes, because it was a tax on prudence and foresight, but it was also most unjust, because it was not equally levied. All agricultural produce and farm buildings were free from this tax, whilst all manufacturing produce and buildings had to pay this enormous duty. He himself happened to farm about 1,200 acres of his own land in Suffolk, and he found both his wool and corn could be stored away there duty free; but immediately that same wool and corn was removed to Yorkshire it had to pay this heavy insurance duty, against the risks of fire. Therefore, by the abolition of this tax, the Government had not only relieved the country from a very impolitic tax, but they had also abolished a most unjust inequality. The hon. Member then called attention to the immense advantage this abolition of the taxes on locomotion would be, and stated that one of the most painful duties he had ever had to perform as a magistrate was to place a heavy fine—which, if not paid, was imprisonment—on a man who had allowed a few country people to ride in his
  638
  cart, when going to or from the market, because he had ventured to make a charge for the same; the fine was not only exceedingly oppressive, but the magistrate had no power to reduce it. All that is now to be abolished, and perfect free trade is to be substituted for it. Any man who could hardly afford to keep a little conveyance, may now be able to do so, because he can make something by using it to convey passengers from railway stations, or could make other excursions when there was a demand for them, and thus it would be a positive advantage not to himself only, but to those who hired the same from him. Then, again, look at the immense advantage it was to the poor cabmen in London and their proprietors, who have been taxed 1s. per day for every cab, whilst London was the most expensive place in the country to live in, and, on the other hand, he was tied down to charge only 6d. per mile, which was less than in any other town; and now there was to be no tax, except what every man would have to pay—namely, 15 s. a year for a two-wheel or hansom, and 42 s. for a four-wheel. Then, again, let them look at the repeal of the duty on corn. The hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Baring) said that its repeal was going to be heavily felt by the revenue, but that the advantage to the consumer would be so small as scarcely to be felt at all. If the hon. Gentleman was to judge of the consumer by himself he was perfectly right, he would scarcely feel it at all; but the hon. Gentleman must allow him (Sir Francis Crossley) to remind him that there were many poor men in this country who had to eat much more bread and far less of what no doubt the hon. Member much preferred, but which was out of the reach of the poor, and this tax on the first necessary of life, he (Sir Francis Crossley) was glad to find was to be abolished for ever. He did not mean to say that its effect would be to lower the price by 1s. per quarter of all the corn grown in this country and all that was imported as well, but he did mean to say it would cheapen it, and would put it at the actual value without any artificial addition whatever. That was a been which would be welcomed by every poor man in the country. One hon. Gentleman who had spoken said this was a rich man's and not a poor man's Budget, but he thought he had

  639
  said enough to show that the Budget was not only a poor man's Budget, but was in reality founded on justice to all.
  MR. ALDERMAN W. LAWRENCEsaid, he looked upon the dangers which had been conjured up by the right hon. Baronet the Member for North Devon (Sir Stafford Northcote) as likely to arise from the periodical pressure which he imagined would occur in the money market, from the financial proposals of the Government being adopted, as perfectly groundless. Great advantages would, in his (Mr. Alderman W. Lawrence's) opinion, be conferred upon the public by those proposals, although they would, no doubt, have to pay for those advantages to a certain extent. He wished to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer—he might add, not only for his own information, but also for that of the Scotch Members—why the Scotch farmer, who was generally regarded as being a man possessed of greater capital than the English farmer, was allowed a remission of 25 per cent on his income tax as compared with the latter? Every one was prepared to make some financial distinctions between Ireland and the other parts of the United Kingdom, but he knew of no reason whatever for such exemptions in favour of Scotland.
  MR. STANSFELDsaid, the difference—so far as the Resolutions before the House were concerned—between the charge on the English, and that on the Scotch and Irish farmers, was taken from the Bills of 1853, and he believed it arose in the case of the Scotch from a difference in the mode of valuation, certainly of the rent, and he believed also of the rates and taxes. In reply to the remarks of the right hon. Baronet the Member for North Devon (Sir Stafford Northcote) as to the plethora of money which was likely to fill the Exchequer at certain times, while, in the right hon. Baronet's opinion, there would be an undue absence of it at others, he would simply observe that the reply of the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not been properly appreciated. But those subjects would be most conveniently discussed on a future occasion, when they would all have had an opportunity of thinking over them, and of consulting one with another, and when they would be prepared with practical suggestions. With regard to the question of the hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. Bonham-
  640
  Carter), who desired to know whether the exemptions on horses engaged in agriculture and the other exemptions which had hitherto obtained would still be preserved, it was not usual to place these exemptions in the Resolutions placed before the Committee, but they would be found in the Bill, which would be discussed in Committee, and in the House.
  MR. T. CHAMBERSsaid, he wished to call the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the case of a constituent of his, a job-master of Piccadilly, who was in the habit of paying £70 a year post horse duty, for which amount he was entitled to keep thirty horses and an unlimited number of carriages, but who found, having carefully considered the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, that he would in future, so far as he could judge, be called upon to pay £15 15 s. for his thirty horses, for forty carriages at £2 2s. a-piece, £84; and for twenty servants to drive them, £15; making, in all, £114 15 s., or nearly double the sum which he now paid. He was very anxious to know whether that was really the intention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer?
  MR. M'LARENsaid, that if the hon. Member for the City of London (Mr. Alderman Lawrence) would bring forward a Resolution for equalizing the income tax paid by farmers in Scotland and England, the Scotch Members would support it, provided only that it should extend to Ireland also. In Scotland, it should be remembered, a new survey was made every year, and the tax was laid on all other classes without a farthing abatement; whereas in Ireland he believed every one, and not farmers alone, was allowed an abatement of 20 per cent before the tax was imposed. If hon. Members wished to know why the distinction was made between England and Scotland as respects farmers, he thought he could gratify their curiosity. At one period, the Scotch landowners were very powerful in that House, and they were shrewd enough to perceive that it was for their interest to make taxation press on the Scotch farmers as lightly as possible in order to benefit themselves.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, there would be no exemption in the ease referred to by the hon. and learned Member for Marylebone

  641
  (Mr. T. Chambers). A man would have to pay for every horse and every carriage he possessed; and he could see no injustice in compelling a rich man, who possessed thirty horses, to pay for the whole number.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Resolution withdrawn.
  (1.) Resolved, That, on and after the 1st day of June next, the Duties of Customs chargeable upon the articles under-mentioned, imported into Great Britain and Ireland, shall cease and determine, viz.:—
  [Then the articles are set forth as above.]
  (2.) Resolved, That, in lieu of the Duties of Customs now chargeable on Beer and Ale, as denominated in the Tariff, on Importation into Great Britain or Ireland, the following Duties shall be charged, viz.:

  Beer and Ale, viz.:

  £

  s.

  d.

  Mum, the barrel of 36 gallons

  1

  1

  0

  Spruce, the barrel of 36 gallons

  1

  1

  0

  Of other sorts, viz.:

  Beer, the words of which were before fermentation of a specific gravity not exceeding One Thousand and Sixty-five Degrees, the barrel of 36 gallons

  0

  8

  0

  Exceeding One Thousand and Sixty-five Degrees, and not exceeding One Thousand and Ninety Degrees, the barrel of 36 gallons

  0

  11

  0

  Exceeding One Thousand and Ninety Degrees, the barrel of 36 gallons

  0

  16

  0

  (3.) Resolved, That, towards raising the Supply granted to Her Majesty, there shall be charged, collected, and paid for one year, commencing on the 6th day of April 1869, for and in respect of all Property, Profits, and Gains mentioned or described as chargeable in the Act passed in the 16th and 17th years of Her Majesty's reign, chapter 34, for granting to Her Majesty Duties on Profits arising from Property, Professions, Trades, and Offices, the following Rates and Duties (that is to say):
  For every Twenty shillings of the annual value or amount of all such Property, Profits, and Gains (except those chargeable under Schedule (B) of the said Act), the Rate or Duty of Six pence.
  And for and in respect of the occupation of Lands, Tenements, Hereditaments, and Heritages chargeable under Schedule (B) of the said Act, for every Twenty shillings of the annual value thereof,
  In England, the Rate or Duty of Three pence, and
  In Scotland and Ireland respectively, the Rate or Duty of Two pence farthing.
  Subject to the provisions contained in Section 3 of the Act 26th Victoria, chapter 22, for the exemption of Persons whose whole Income from every source is under £100 a-year, and relief of those whose Income is under £200 a-year.
  (4.) Resolved, That the Duties of Assessed Taxes now payable in Great Britain shall cease to be assessed in respect of Male Servants, Carriages, Horses, Mares or Geldings, Mules, Hair Powder, and Armorial Bearings employed, kept, used, or worn respectively after the 5th day of April 1869 in England, and after the 24th day of May 1869 in Scotland, and on Persons using or exercising the Trade and Business of a Horse-dealer after such days respectively.
  (5.) Resolved, That, on the 1st day of January 1870, the following Duties of Excise shall cease to be payable (that is to say):
  Upon Licences to let Horses for Hire in Great Britain.
  Upon Licences to let to Hire Horses for the purpose of travelling Post by the mile, or from Stage to Stage in Ireland.
  Upon Licences to keep, use, and let to Hire Hackney Carriages within the limits of the Metropolitan Police District and the City of London, and also the "Weekly Duties payable in respect of such Hackney Carriages.
  Upon Licences to keep, use, and employ Stage Carriages in Great Britain, and also the Mileage Duty payable in respect of such Stage Carriages.
  (6.) Resolved, That, on the 25th day of June 1869, the Stamp Duty, at the rate of One shilling and Six pence per centum per annum, now payable in respect of Insurances against Loss or Damage by Fire only, shall cease to be payable.
  (7.) Resolved, That, from the 5th day of July 1869, the Duties of Excise now payable upon Licences to be taken out by Persons trading in or selling Coffee, Tea, Cocoa Nuts, Chocolate, or Pepper, shall cease to be payable.
  House resumed.
  Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.
  Committee to sit again upon Wednesday.

  SUPPLY.
  Order for Committee read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, ''That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

ARMY—MILITARY LABOUR.

  RESOLUTION.
  MR. HANBURY TRACY: In calling attention to this subject, I cannot help feeling that, although by no means new, it is a matter of such vast importance that I regret no one else better fitted to grapple with it than I can possibly be should have taken it up: but it seems to me that it is of so much interest to the country that thorough ventilation should be given to the views entertained by those who are of opinion that military works should be undertaken by military

  643
  labour, that I think I may fairly lay claim to the kind indulgence of the House in trespassing for a short period, in endeavouring to call attention generally to the question. Now, Sir, what I am anxious to show the House is, that nearly all the experiments made, during the last ten years, have shown conclusively that a saving of 30 per cent can be effected by the employment of soldier labour on military works, and at the same time efficiency and discipline have by no means been impaired where the plan has been tried. I wish to show the House that the amount of money which might be saved annually with benefit to the country—providing an organized system were adopted throughout the Army on the Home Station—would be about £100,000. I also want to point out that, in order to effect this, what is termed the "Industrial Employment of Soldiers" must be utilized for the public benefit. It appears almost unnecessary to dwell upon the fact, so patent to every one, that the more you combine the structural with the combatant functions in an army, so much more efficient does that army become. But I regret to say that there are still officers existing who are not yet convinced, and in this country. Although of late years—especially since the great struggle on the American continent—public opinion has made rapid strides in arriving at the conclusion of what the beau ideal of an army ought to be, there is yet very much to be done before we can place ourselves on a par with Continental nations in their views as to what the perfect organization of an army should be. It is the opinion of every foreign officer of distinction—and, I am thankful to say, of a great number of our own—that an army to be thoroughly effective and fully equipped ought to possess, amongst its component parts, units able to exercise intelligence and resource to carry out the supply of all its wants without assistance. If we search history, we find that the Romans, centuries ago, used not only to train their soldiers to the use of arms, but also to the mode and manner of entrenching camps, of building bridges, and of works likely to be of use to an army. Not only was this done when under instruction, but whenever their camps were moved their troops were practised in entrenchment and general works. Of later date we find Na-
  644
  poleon stating, when at St. Helena, that "with soldiers properly trained, a good general could fight as much with the spade as with the musket." It was that great General's opinion—the highest authority on such matters—that the handier you made the soldier, so proportionately did his value increase. The famous army of Boulogne was a force trained in this respect; and it seems open to the commonest understanding that the more a man is made to use the muscles of his frame, to have active bodily exercise, to be made handy, and to depend on his own skill, the more useful will he be. Only the other day the Americans found, during the war in the United States, the greatest possible benefit was derived from having a large number of skilled artificers in the ranks, and many of our own officers, who went over during the war, are witnesses of how inferior our troops are, in comparison, in this respect. Lord Grey, in his evidence before the Recruiting Commission, described this so well, that I will, with the permission of the House, read an extract. His Lordship said—
  "I would on no account take away any part of the time that was necessary for making the soldier perfect in his military drill, and I would especially require a complete knowledge of the use of his weapons; but I am told that the Americans have found that the system of drill is capable of very great simplification, and that they have discovered that the efficiency of their army depends to a very great degree upon the skill of the men, not only in the use of weapons but in the use of tools. The efficiency of the American army was increased to a degree that it was difficult to describe by the skill of those volunteer soldiers many of whom were drawn from the western parts of America, and who had the ready habits of settlers in applying all the resources they could find to their own advantage. The efficiency of those men in that respect was one of the great sources of strength of the American army, and it was found in that contest that entrenchments could be erected in a wonderfully short space of time by skilled men. They had the power not only of making earthworks, but of rapidly constructing railways, and laying down electric telegraphs, and making all the arrangements for the communication with the army and carrying on all the work necessary for its advantage. Some of our own officers tell me that there was very much indeed for them to learn from what they saw actually done in the course of that contest in America."
  It is quite true that the scheme of making soldiers independent of external assistance has made some progress of late years in many quarters. Trials have certainly taken place at a few barracks of doing all the repairs by soldiers, and

  645
  also of employing Engineers and Line on the erection of fortifications; but what I want to point out to the House is this—that down to the present moment no organized attempt has been made to carry out a general system. There are about 500 barracks on the Home Station occupied and unoccupied, and out of these I believe I am correct in saying that only six have their repairs executed entirely by the troops. Notwithstanding trials are successfully carried out, no practical use whatever is made of the knowledge so acquired, and hardly any perceptible saving of the public expenditure has as yet been made. The War Office seem first to have recognized the necessity of carrying out the industrial employment of soldiers on a large scale in 1861; and in that year Sir George Lewis, Secretary of State for War, was so much impressed with the advantages which would accrue from the soldier being made less of a machine, that he appointed a departmental Committee to inquire into the whole subject. That Committee, in May, 1862, after having received a very voluminous correspondence, reported strongly in favour of the system being generally attempted, stating, however, that the first consideration should be that only well-drilled first-class soldiers were to be employed. The only two objections amongst the letters they received came from General Sir George Brown and the Dublin Board, whilst forty-five were in favour. Amongst the correspondence, I find that Sir John Burgoyne stated—
  "It is quite needless to advert to the advantage to the social position of the country, and to the soldiers themselves, if any portion of them can be converted from habits tending rather to a disinclination and disability to work, even as labourers, to an aptitude for becoming workmen of the class of artizans; while the progress of conversion will obtain for them increased health and comforts; in many cases may be of assistance to the public service, and might perhaps eventually, in some degree, repay the moderate cost of carrying the measure out."
  And Lord De Eos said that—
  "No doubt that almost all barrack repairs could be done, and well and cheaply done, by soldiers. Painting is very soon learned, paving of stables and yards, clearing and repairing drains, and even ordinary carpenter's and bricklayer's work would, under competent direction, be quite within the compass of the soldier in barracks, and in camp the repair of huts and tents, and the forming of drains, above all, the making of roads, seem almost essential to rendering him able and efficient on service."
  646
  Both of these officers are of the highest standing in the army, and great authorities on this matter. The Committee, in their Report, recommended that a certain outlay should be made for the purchase of tools and erection of workshops, and this I believe to be one of the reasons why the attempt has not been carried out on a large scale; and the other reason has been that the War Office and commanding officers have looked upon the teaching soldiers different trades too much as a means of affording recreation and amusement for the troops, instead of carrying out an organized plan by which these industrial trades could be utilized for the country's benefit, and thus making the public service the first object. In Clause 39 of the Report the Committee state the manner the troops ought to be employed—
  "We consider the troops should be employed upon the repair of barrack damages, fair wear and tear repairs, making and repairing barrack furniture or stores, and indeed upon any work that the officer commanding the regiment or corps, or the commanding Royal Engineer, may consider they could be advantageously employed upon, and that the general officer commanding at the station may approve of."
  I apprehend, Sir, that if we are to employ soldiers on military works, if their industry is to be made available, surely the duties enumerated by the Committee, of repairing barrack damages of all description, is the most essential to be carried out. The future principle of action on the part of the War Department ought to be, that it is as incumbent on the soldier to keep his dwelling in repair as it is to guard it. In all the discussions which have taken place in this House and in the House of Lords since that Committee, the inquiry appears to have turned far more on Industrial employment for purposes of recreation than as a means of reducing military expenditure. In the Return moved for by the hon. Member for Buckingham (Sir Harry Verney), in. 1865, we find that in India it has been carried out on a largo scale. In one instance, I believe, watches have actually been manufactured, and every description of trade seems to have been sot on foot, but hardly any of this labour has been carried to the benefit of the State by reducing expenditure. Thanks to the courtesy of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War, I have been permitted to see the whole of the corre-

  647
  spondence which has taken place on this subject for the last ten years, and I have received the fullest information on this subject from the different officials at the War Office. I regret, however, to say that with the exception of a few reports from Barracks where the experiments have been carried on, the great bulk is composed of correspondence relating to the Industrial Amusement of the troops. Now, Sir, I am very far from deprecating this course as far as it goes, and I am well aware of the advantages which accrue to the soldier when his time is employed; but I do think that the day has arrived when we ought to look at the question broadly in the face, with the view of seeing how far we can carry this "Industrial labour and talent," which has been so easily evoked in these regiments where the experiments have been tried, to the benefit of the State by employing soldiers on military works. I am quite confident that the experience gained since 1862 is sufficient to enable us to deal in a large and statesmanlike manner with this most important matter without further inquiry or loss of time. There are a large number of officers who still think a soldier ought to be a mere machine; but I am sure that it only requires a little pressure from this House to enable the system to be fully developed. The repairs of Barracks are classed under two heads, first repairs arising from occupation which are termed "Barrack damages," and secondly "fair wear and tear repairs," which are called "Incidentals." "Barrack damages," as the House is aware, is charged against the troops inhabiting, and are a most vexatious burden, although the whole sum expended on the Home Station does not amount to more than £7,000. It seems to me, Sir, that the sooner this item is entirely done away with the better will it be for the army. Small though the amount actually is, it is on pay day a source of great irritation to the soldier, and is generally regarded as a robbery. Often and often these damages occur from the building being in so dilapidated a state that it is impossible to inhabit it without risk of large damages; and, in many cases, I fear regiments are charged with damages arising from neighbouring unoccupied buildings, because there are no others to pay for them. Until lately these Barrack damages were executed by what was
  648
  termed the "Barrack damage contractor," employed by the Barrack master without any supervision on the part of the Royal Engineer Department, and were open to the chance of collusion; but I am thankful to say that, by the new Control regulation, it has now been placed together with Incidentals under the direct supervision of the Royal Engineers. In some cases regiments have attempted to do these small repairs, and in some cases have succeeded, especially in the regiments of Guards; but as a rule, and from want of a system, and because the incidentals have nearly always been obliged to be undertaken by civilians, the two sets of artificers have clashed, and the attempt has been a failure. In regard to the incidentals, which on the Home Station amounts to £135,000. At a few places experiments have been carried out in their integrity at Parkhurst, Woolwich, Aldershot, and the Curragh camp, and at these places, where the commanding officers happen to have been favourable to the plan, a saving, in round numbers, of nearly 30 per cent has been effected. At Parkhurst, I believe, the system has been more fully tested than at any other station. Fortunately the commanding officer—Colonel Jeffreys—an officer of great ability, was determined to give the plan a full trial, and threw his whole energy into carrying out and developing the idea, and gave it his most cordial co-operation. The result has been most satisfactory. We find, in the Return which has just been printed, that Lieutenant McHardy, of the Royal Engineers, under whose supervision the works were carried out, states that—
  "The result which has attended the employment of the labour of soldiers on barrack incidental repairs has been very satisfactory; the works have been properly performed, and with expedition. The percentage calculated from the last quarter of the year (this being the only quarter during which the estimated amount was accurately determined) would be 35 per cent of saving by employing the soldiers, instead of a contractor. The estimated expenditure for civil labour was £159 5s.; the actual expenditure (the soldiers doing the work) was £103 6s., the saving being £56 nearly. Calculating by the data thus obtained, the saving on the total expenditure for the year—namely, £303—would be £106 yearly. The success of the scheme is in a great measure due to the hearty co-operation of the late commanding officer, Colonel Jeffreys. Disadvantage arose from time to time by the men employed having to join their respective regiments, so that the shops were often required to be rearranged

  649
  with fresh men. This inconvenience, incidental to a depot battalion, would not of course be felt in a regiment. It is to be remarked that the co-operation of all concerned, especially of the commanding officer, is absolutely necessary for the successful employment of soldiers."
  In regard to the efficiency of the regiment, perhaps the House will allow me to read a letter which I have received from Colonel Jeffreys himself. He says—
  "Seafield House, Ryde, 3rd April, 1869.
  "Dear Sir,—I have the greatest satisfaction in being able to inform you that the employment of soldiers at Parkhurst, for upwards of eighteen months, in executing "Barrack Damage Repairs," "Fair Wear Repairs" (termed incidentals), has resulted in a great success. These repairs, as well as various new works of considerable extent, have been performed to the satisfaction of the resident Royal Engineer, at a saving of fully 30 per cent. Discipline has not, in the slightest degree, been impaired; there, of course, have been cases of drunkenness and absence, but those cases have been exceptional. Some commanding officers may object, because the system is an innovation, that soldiers while employed would forget their drill; but I cordially concur in opinion with Colonel Baker, that their being usefully employed does not necessarily make them inefficient in the ranks; tailors and shoemakers are regularly employed without objection. The benefit to be derived from the system in a military point of view is undoubted; as a trained body of artizans would be always available, either in quarter or in the field, a soldier's energies would be developed, and he would become habituated to work instead of passing his time in listless idleness. Moreover, when discharged he would be able and willing to earn his livelihood, instead of (as is too frequently the case) becoming a burden on bis parish. It is, however, most important to observe, that the system cannot be carried out in the army without the cordial co-operation of commanding officers, combined with general officers of districts, acting under instructions conveyed through the Adjutant General of the Forces from His Royal Highness the Field-Marshal Commanding-in-Chief. I remain, dear Sir, yours truly,
  " EDMUSD JEFFREYS, Col.,
  "Late commanding 5th Depot Battalion.
  "To the Hon. C. HANBURT TRACY, M.P."
  Now, Sir, up to this time these experiments have rested entirely on the willingness or unwillingness of commanding officers to undertake the additional trouble connected with the commencement of this system, and of training a certain number of their men as artificers. I undertake to say that if any other officer had been at Parkhurst who disliked the work, the result would have been very different, and we should have probably heard of a loss. I ask the House, Is it right that the success of this plan should be allowed to depend on the mere caprice of commanding
  650
  officers? Unless the War Department lay down an imperative order that all regiments are to possess a body of skilled artificers, and that they are to repair their own barracks, and take a determined stand, however successful a few experiments may be here and there, it will end in failure. At Aldershot, we find that the saving has ranged from 10 up to 50 per cent—
  "It is estimated that a saving of about 10 per cent on incidental repairs, rising up to 50 per cent on some new works, has attended the employment of soldier labour. A larger number of military superintendents are required for military labour than for work performed by civilians."
  At the Curragh, the saving has been estimated at 39 per cent—
  "The employment of soldiers at the Curragh has been attended with the most satisfactory results. The saving is estimated at 39 per cent; to work the system satisfactorily it is essential that the troops should remain for a considerable time at each station, and that they should be superintended by officers and non-commissioned officers of Royal Engineers."
  In regard to this, I wish to say that I am informed this saving has been effected only during the past year. Previous to that time, the experiment appears not to have been successful, owing, I presume, to the superintendence not having been sufficiently effective. The saving of 39 per cent is due, I believe, entirely to the 28th Company of Royal Engineers, which is stationed at the Curragh. This is another proof of the great necessity of the superintendence being very efficient when soldier labour is employed. At Woolwich, where the system has just been commenced, it varis from 20 to 25 per cent—
  "A saving, estimated at 20 per cent on incidentals and 25 per cent on new works, has attended the employment of soldier labour. A continuance of the system will develop its advantages in a higher degree."
  In many of our colonies, where these experiments on fortifications have been made, soldier labour has been employed with the most important beneficial re- suits. We find it has been successful at Bermuda, Gibraltar, Quebec, New Zealand, and the Cape, and that savings have been made. This shows that there exists a vast amount of latent power in the army which only requires organization to enable the labour of soldiers to be carried out on a large scale with benefit to the country. On the Home Station, works of considerable extent have been conducted at Weymouth and

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  Dover. At Weymouth. we find that Captain Smith, who so ably conducted the works there, states that the employment of skilled military labour resulted in a saving of nearly 30 per cent—
  "Memorandum of the comparative Cost of Sapper and Civil Labour.—1. The saving effected by employing military labour (Royal Engineers and Line) instead of contract, is 2841 per cent. 2. Every soldier, during each day that he is actually employed on the works, clears off (by doing the work cheaper than a civilian) his whole coat to the country, including regimental and working pay, bounty, clothing, barracks, hospital, &c, in fact everything except 3¾d. per diem. 3. The amount of work done by an average soldier (taking day-work and piece-work, Royal Engineers and Line, together) is 71 of that done by a civilian.
  (Signed) PERCY SMITH,
  Captain Commanding Royal Engineers.
  Weymouth, June, 1866."
  The officer who carried out the works at Dover is, I am happy to say, a Member of this House (Captain Beaumont), and I trust he will give us his opinion as to the success of the experiments, and to the necessity of organization. In many of these experiments on fortifications, the soldier of the Line has acted as a labourer, the Sappers doing all the skilled labour; but there is nothing whatever to prevent every Line regiment having a large body of skilled artificers receiving full working pay on the same plan as carried out in the Royal Engineers; and if a complete organization is adopted, you will have every regiment with its corps of artificers, like ships in the navy carrying their dockyard with them. I have endeavoured to obtain some reliable statistics as to what percentage of the troops at present employed have served in trades, but without success, as it appears a large number of recruits will not admit the fact of their having been employed in trades, and frequently men declare themselves to be tradesmen who have no qualification. In the Return moved for by the hon. Member for Buckingham (Sir Harry Verney), it would seem that the percentage of men who have had some knowledge in useful trades in Line regiments amounted to 8 per cent; but I am inclined to believe that this is over the mark. Supposing we were to state the case in its worst aspect, and to presume that there were actually no artificers in the Infantry whatever, I am convinced even then, that if inducements were held out of fair working pay being given, you would
  652
  soon find a large number of artizans amongst your recruits, and the general class of men very much raised. In this view I am borne out by the Recruiting Commission, and also by the manner in which the Royal Engineers are recruited. I find that Mr. Buckley stated this view very concisely before Sir George Lewis's Committee. He said—
  "The knowledge of the fact that a soldier can return to his home an independent member of the community instead of being an outcast almost of society, would have such a tendency to improve the recruiting for the army that parents would no longer hesitate to allow their sons to enter its ranks. Young men of respectability, as tradesmen, would no longer hesitate to become soldiers, if they knew they could still continue to practise their trades; a better description of recruit is obtained for the Royal Engineers from the knowledge that a certain amount of working pay is certain."
  I shall no doubt be told that in every regiment you have already established an artificer's corps in the Pioneers of the regiment, and, to a certain extent, this is true according to regulations. But, Sir, until last year nearly every regiment selected their body of Pioneers, not on account of their' being artificers, but because of their size and capability of growing handsome, luxuriant beards, and to look well at the head of regiments, with their magnificent polished tools, which never showed signs of laborious use. Their duties have hardly ever been that of artificers, unless, indeed, it may be urged that they have been employed in performing small jobs of little real utility. Now, Sir, I apprehend that nearly every commanding officer would object to the Pioneers being largely augmented, not only because it would interfere with the interior economy of the regiment, but also because it would make an invidious distinction in the ranks which ought to be avoided. I am aware that in this view I am not borne out by Colonel Jeffreys, who has had so much experience in the matter; but I think he is an exception to the rule. The plan, therefore, which seems to me most feasible and open to the least objection would be to abolish the Pioneers altogether, and in lieu thereof to enter a certain number of artificers in each company, obtaining the same pay as their companions, but whose privilege and advantage it would be, to be employed, as a rule, four or five days a week on working pay, under the Royal

  653
  Engineer of the district, on repairs and new works. Now, Sir, in making these suggestions, I wish the House to understand that I do so with the utmost diffidence, being well aware that there are considerable difficulties to be overcome; but after discussing the subject with officers in the army of considerable experience, it seems generally to be thought that this would give rise to the least interference with the internal economy and discipline. I believe that if you were to lay down the rule that seven men in each company were to be artificers, you would soon obtain them, and that these seven would form the nucleus of a still larger number anxious to be employed. It will no doubt be asked—How is this complete organization to be carried out? How are you to obtain the requisite superintendence? Who is to purchase materials? Where is your builder's yard, with its tools, its ladders, and appliances? Sir, my answer is simply this, that you have already a complete system of superintendence to carry out a general plan for the employment of military labour, without going to the expense of a single shilling. The private soldier has always been accustomed to look to the Royal Engineers and the Sappers as their legitimate superintendents and foremen when employed in time of war on works and fortifications, and it is this valuable force that you must utilize in time of peace to the fullest possible extent. It would be the greatest mistake, in my humble opinion, to set up a regimental organization distinct from the Royal Engineers. The plan, to be properly carried out in its integrity, must be local, and not regimental, and in this I think I shall be borne out by most gentlemen connected with the army. If you try to keep the organization in a regiment, you will find not only that it will interfere very much with the internal economy, but accounts would be multiplied, endless confusion would prevail, and that the upshot of it would be that the system, as applied on a large scale, would infallibly break down. If anything further was required to corroborate this statement which I have endeavoured to lay before the House, it would perhaps be the testimony of any man who practically tried to carry out a system on a large scale. Fortunately, I am able to say that I have
  654
  that testimony in the person of Colonel Clarke, Director of Works at the Admiralty. I believe, Sir, that Colonel Clarke, who is an officer of the highest ability in the Royal Engineers, is one of the best authorities on this subject, having not only been a warm advocate of its adoption during a long number of years, but also having had practical experience. I find, Sir, that as long ago as 1847 he superintended the construction of barracks in New Zealand, which he appears to have carried out with great success by soldier labour. On being appointed to the Admiralty a few years back, he strongly advised that the Marines should repair their own barracks; but he found every colonel commandant strongly opposed, and the Board of Admiralty difficult to move. Not, however, the least despairing, he set to work to see what could be done, and, with the cordial assistance of Sir Sidney Dacres, the scheme has, to a certain extent, been successfully carried out, though there is yet very much to be done. I find that nearly all the barracks are now repaired by the Marines at a saving of about 30 per cent, and that the commanding officers testify that discipline has not been interfered with. In the Return which has not yet been printed, I find that at Chatham a saving of 23 per cent has been effected. Colonel Lamb rick states—
  "I have found the artificers and labourers employed, efficient soldiers in the Brigade and Battalion. Their conduct is good. I rarely have any complaints. They appear to like the work, and being so employed I am sure makes them better soldiers and therefore more valuable to the State."
  At Woolwich a saving of 41 per cent has been made, and Colonel Luther states ''Marine labour has worked most satisfactorily." At Plymouth the saving is 40 per cent, and Colonel Foote says—
  "I am of opinion that the ordinary repairs of barracks has been very satisfactory, the work having been well done, at less cost than would have attended the employment of contractors' men, and with less delay."
  At Portsmouth the saving is about 22 per cent, and Colonel Schomberg, who is supposed to be very strict in regard to drill, says—
  "Irrespective of the actual gain in money, I consider that such employment has other advantages. It offers a reward to deserving men, and encourages good conduct. These men, whilst serving, keep up a knowledge of their former

  655
  trades. On actual service they would be most valuable, and could assist in engineer operations. Discipline is improved—drill and appearance on parade not injured in any way whatever."
  Now, Sir, I am well aware that objections have been raised against adopting soldier labour on any large scale, but I have been unable to find a single one which cannot easily be answered, although I do not wish for a moment to deny that there are difficulties in the details which require careful consideration. It is said that it would be impossible to obtain a sufficient supply of artificers; but I think the recruiting for the Royal Engineers shows unmistakably that this would not be the case provided you gave a liberal amount of working pay; and if, after making the attempt, you failed, it would then be perfectly easy to teach a certain number of boys different trades in order to start the system. Then I am told that the men would buy their discharge directly they had made sufficient money, in the same manner that several companies of Sappers out in the colonies have preferred civil life and left the Service. Well, Sir, I do not think much harm would arise if this were to be the case, as I am confident the vacuum would still be filled in, and if the purchase-money were increased for artificers, no loss could be sustained. I am quite clear, however, that the working pay must be put entirely on a new footing, and must rise and fall in proportion to civil pay. It is absurd to think that under the existing regulations an Engineer in the colonies, where the wage for artificers is naturally high, should be receiving the same working pay as if he were on the Home Station. It is said by some officers that it would affect drill; but I think all the experience we have gained shows that this is not the case. I am informed that Colonel Pasley, who erected some stone barracks at Melbourne, used to fall his men in one afternoon in the week to what was termed "swaggering drill," and it was found to answer admirably, and the men were always well set up. Then I am told that in garrison towns it would be impossible to carry it out. Now, Sir, an officer at Dublin has been kind enough to send me the garrison statistics, and I find that even there—which is supposed to be the most heavily garrisoned town on the Home Station—a percent-
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  age of seven men to each company could be employed every day in the repair of barracks. It seems to me, Sir, that this also leads to another question—namely, whether the duties in garrison towns could not be considerably cut down? Then I am told that you would be put to a great expense for workshops and tools. But this need not be the case, as the Royal Engineers have the tools. In almost every barrack in the kingdom a portion of the building is at present reserved by the Royal Engineer Department as store and workshops for the civilian labour employed under the contractor, and it is only necessary to alter the appropriation of these places to obtain the necessary accommodation. Then I have been told that it would benefit the soldier, but not the State. I think, Sir, that the only answer to this is that the time has gone by when it was thought "that the greater the blackguard so much better the soldier;" and that we now feel that the more you raise the tone of the soldier, so much more efficient does your army become. These, I believe, Sir, are the chief objections, and I now come to what would be the financial result if an organized system were adopted. I find that the number of civilians employed daily on the repair of barracks on the Home Station throughout the year, is about 1,200, and that if soldiers were employed you would require about 2,000 to work four days a week. If my proposition were carried out of having seven men in each company, you would have on the Home Station a splendid body of no less than 5,000 skilled artificers. If, then, 2,000 were taken for the repair of barracks, you might employ 3,000 on the other works suggested by the Committee. I believe that by this means the expenditure on barracks, amounting to £133,000, might be reduced by £40,000; and that the remaining sum of £357,662, which is now spent under Vote 14 for the Home Station, might be reduced by £100,000. In France, the employment of soldier labour is carried out to a very large extent, and I am informed that all the gun-carriages are made by the Artillery. I do not see what is to prevent the same course being adopted in this country. I will not now take up the time of the House any longer, which I fear I have already trespassed upon at far too great a length. I will therefore only add. that

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  I believe the organization of the armies of all foreign nations has, during the last few years, advanced by rapid strides: it must not be that England should be left behind in the race. Sooner or later the strife must come, and the result must depend on the general aptitude of our armies for the emergencies of war; the clinging to a system of machine made troops not in harmony with the age will not avail us in time of need. Let us, then, in this period of peace, by timely and judicious and systematic reforms, lead our men to a better general acquaintance with the structural duties of the Service; and by so doing, I am confident we shall effect vast economy in our expenditure, and proportionally increase the efficiency of our armies. The hon. Member then moved the Amendment.
  MR. HEADLAM, in seconding the Motion, said, his hon. Friend (Mr. Hanbury Tracy) had done exceedingly good service by bringing the subject before the House. He (Mr. Headlam) had long entertained a strong opinion that soldiers might be employed, very beneficially to themselves and the public, upon such works as had been indicated. He did not wish to enter into the economical part of the question; his hon. Friend had shown that a great saving would be effected by the employment of soldiers. But his own experience as Judge Advocate General enabled him to say that many of the crimes which soldiers were guilty of arose in reality from lack of employment. He believed that if they had the opportunity of earning an honest penny, they would be better soldiers and better men, and would avoid many heavy punishments which were now inflicted. He believed the House was scarcely aware of the long terms of punishment to which soldiers were subjected for various crimes and offences against military discipline; and if they could be saved from the commission of these crimes, that in itself, independently of any economical advantage, would be a great and material benefit. This subject had been brought forward previously—at least in the other House—and there had always been a perfect concession of the truth of the arguments; but somehow the military authorities had always neglected to carry their professed opinions into practice. He therefore wished to im-
  658
  press upon his right hon. Friend the present Secretary of State for War that he should not simply say that he acceded to the proposition, but that he should, by a strong exercise of his own will, give effect to it, because unless he did this it would not be carried out by commanding officers. He was certain that if some system of this sort were carried out, the condition of the army and the character of the soldier, in all the higher senses of the term, would be improved.
  Amendment proposed,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "in the opinion of this House, an authorized organization should be adopted for extending the system of 'Military labour to Military works' to all stations of Her Majesty's Army,"—(Mr. Hanbury-Tracy,)
  —instead thereof.
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  GENERAL PERCY HERBERTsaid, he rose to prevent the House assuming that the difficulty in the way of the employment of soldiers arose exclusively from the opposition of officers. Another difficulty to be got over was the financial one. When Engineer officers were not available to superintend the labour of soldiers, it was in many instances cheaper to employ contract labour.
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, he need not assure the House of the entire sympathy with which he regarded the Motion of his hon. Friend (Mr. Hanbury Tracy). There could be no doubt that everything which diminished idleness among soldiers was a boon, seeing that in the army, as out of it, idleness was a fruitful source of evil. Anything which increased the pay of the soldier, and enabled him to add to his comfort, and that of his family, if he had one, and anything which broke down the barrier between military and civil life, and gave the soldier participation and interest in the pursuits of those by whom he was surrounded, must have a beneficial effect. Another signal benefit which might be expected to follow from the introduction of soldier labour was the enlistment of artificers who, entering at an early period of life, might look forward to returning to civil life, and resuming the employment to which they had been accustomed, particularly if the term of

  659
  service were shortened, as he hoped it would be. All these advantages recommended the Motion to the favour of the House, and he should be happy to promote any organization which would attain the desired result; but he would caution his hon. Friend not to forget that in the army you must depend on commanding officers, as it was through them the organization must be carried into effect. When men were separated from the army and given work to do, it was the commanding officer who was responsible for maintaining discipline and preventing undue pressure being put on the other men who were engaged in ordinary regimental duties. It might materially impair discipline and do serious injury to the army if the commanding officers were in any way ignored in this matter. When large savings were spoken of to be effected by this mode of industry, it must be remembered that superintendence had to be provided, and he did not think that in the statistics quoted anything was reckoned for this superintendence. They could only obtain superintendence when they had Engineer officers at their command. Then, again, much must depend upon the number of men in a regiment who were trained for the particular service to which it was desired to put them, and upon their aptitude for it. Of course, if a contractor were doing any given work it would be for him to say what labour should be employed. He had presented a Return to the House, from which hon. Members would find that there had been no indisposition lately to prosecute this system. At Portsmouth, the average numbers of men employed were—civilians, 67; soldiers, 29; at Woolwich—civilians, 35; soldiers, 108; at the Curragh Camp—civilians, 24; soldiers, 53. The Controller had received a letter from Colonel Meredith reporting the results of the system as tried at Parkhurst. The Colonel stated that the men having been selected and classified in trades, they were sent to the shops, and received 1s. 3d. a day if they worked as artificers, and 9d. if as labourers. In some cases the pay was increased. The hours of labour were eight hours in winter and ten in summer, and the men were paid for overtime. The work was very popular among the men, and though it had been only carried on for a short time,
  660
  the effect on the men's characters was most excellent. The money earned was mostly spent on their families, where they had families, and some had accumulated considerable sums in the savings bank. He had the pleasure of telling his hon. Friend, that in the recent barrack regulations, arrangements had been made for the barrack repairs to be executed, as far as possible, by the men themselves, under the direction of the Royal Engineers. In communicating the information contained in the Returns to the Commander-in-Chief, he had expressed his wish that the attention of commanding officers should be drawn by a circular to the good resulting from the system, and that regiments might be moved as little as possible in cases where they had been tolerably successful in obtaining useful work on their station. He therefore hoped his hon. Friend would be satisfied that the military authorities were alive to the importance of the subject, and fully desirous of extending the system as far as practicable.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.

  SUPPLY—ARMY ESTIMATES.
  SUPPLY—considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)

  (1.) £460,800, Clothing Establishments, Services, and Supplies.

  (2.) £512,900, Barrack Establishments, Services, and Supplies.

  (3.) £43,800, Divine Service.

  (4.) £2,000, Martial Law.

  SIR ROBERT ANSTRUTHERsaid, he thought it was high time that the attention of the Committee should be drawn to the degrading practice of branding deserters with the letter "D." He should like to ask the Secretary of State for War, whether it was not contrary to the Articles of War, which specified the place where a man should be branded, to mark him more than once? If soldiers were subjected to the disgraceful punishment, how could it be expected that respectable men would enlist? Men deserting from the police were not branded; and admission to the force was at a premium. It was held to be disgraceful among the men of the police force to be

  661
  dismissed; why, then, should it not be so in the army? Since the House had abolished flogging it would not long tolerate the far more barbarous practice of branding. Was it just to mart a man indelibly for an offence committed oftentimes from momentary impulse?
  COLONEL NORTHsaid, he entirely differed from the hon. Baronet (Sir j Robert Anstruther). Branding was necessary as a precaution. Formerly the man who had been punished carried the marks of the cat upon his back, but now flogging had been done away with. It was absolutely necessary that something should be done to prevent a deserter deceiving the country by a second enlistment. It had been stated, on more than one occasion in that House, that desertion was becoming a regular trade, and an instance had been given of one man who had deserted no less than thirteen times. It was necessary to have some means by which they could prevent men, who from their appearance frequently seemed to be likely to make good soldiers, from re-enlisting after desertion. Unless they could devise some such means there was nothing to prevent such blackguards from enlisting in all the regiments in the British army. It was all very well for hon. Gentlemen to get up in that House and talk about degrading the soldier; but the opponents to the present system ought to be prepared to recommend some equally efficacious means of preventing re-enlistment after desertion.
  LORD ELCHOsaid, that the idea of branding human beings as one would brand cattle was most repulsive. The practice appeared to be a relic of past times, of times such as those of Charles II.—a very pious monarch—when the Mutiny Act of the day contained a provision that any soldier speaking disrespectfully of the doctrine of the Trinity or swearing should be liable to have his tongue bored through with a hot iron. The question which the House would shortly have to consider was not whether men should be branded several times, but whether that punishment should be inflicted at all. Even burglars were not branded. He believed that desertion might be prevented as well as it was under the present system by resorting to photography, which had been found of so much use in enabling the police to recognize offenders against the law. If, however, no other remedy could be devised, he thought it
  662
  would be better to run the risk of a certain percentage of deserters.
  MR. BUXTONsaid, he believed that the only effectual cure for desertion was to make the Queen's service as attractive as possible. There was no real reason why the army should be the only service which men were forced to enter, especially as it might, without much difficulty, be made the most attractive service in the country.
  MR. GUESTsaid, that the term "branding" was quite a misnomer in the case. The operation was known to the doctors as cupping. In reality, it inplied nothing more than the tattooing to which nearly all sailors voluntarily submitted. There was no branding with a hot iron. The practice was necessary as a precaution against fraud—an evil against which photography, while being very expensive, could afford no protection whatever.
  VISCOUNT BURY, in answer to the remarks of the hon. Member for Surrey (Mr. Buxton), said, that to make the army more attractive would be to make it worth the while of dishonest men to enter the service for the sake of deserting it. It would be impossible for commanding officers from mere photographs to pick out men who had deserted or been dismissed for bad conduct, and prevent them from joining the ranks. There appeared to be an idea that this branding was similar to the branding of cattle; whereas in reality it was nothing more than pricking the flesh with a needle and rubbing in some gunpowder. Almost every sailor in Her Majesty's fleet bore similar marks, and if a sailor rolled up his shirt sleeves he generally disclosed the initials of his own name and of the name of at least one of his ladyloves. Of course, it might be said that marking with a "D" was a sign of disgrace, but the disgrace was not to be inflicted unless it was deserved. He certainly thought we ought to retain one means by which we could prevent deserters from attempting to enlist in other regiments.
  LORD GARLIESsaid, that it was at the discretion of the courts-martial, and not imperative upon them, to order a prisoner to be marked in this way, and the punishment was frequently, in the case of young and inexperienced soldiers, withheld, in the hope that the leniency exhibited might be attended

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  with beneficial effects. Nor was it necessary to imprint another "D" on deserters upon a fresh conviction.
  MR. CARNEGIEsaid, that the effect of this system was to deter good men from enlisting. The punishment ought to be abolished altogether, and commanding officers ought to have the power of discharging bad characters. Any loss thus sustained would be fully made up by the enlistment of a better class of men.
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, he hoped that the day had gone by when desertion was or would be anything like what it was when he first entered Parliament. There were now excellent candidates for admission into the service, and he hoped to see the day when marking would be altogether abolished. The history of the question was this—At one time an enormous system of fraud was practised by men who enlisted first in one regiment of the army, then in the Militia, and who went from one regiment to another. Such was the loss occasioned to the public in this way that, in 1844, Parliament altered the Mutiny Act, and—he would not enter now upon the legal question—appeared to make it more stringent. His opinion had been asked, not upon the legal question, but whether marking should be regarded as a proper punishment. His answer was clear—he did not think it ought. It was not meant to be inflicted as a punishment, but for the prevention of fraud; so that the second infliction of it was wrong, and he felt no doubt that His Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief would be of the same opinion.
  COLONEL NORTHasked whether any steps had been taken to carry out the recommendation of the Royal Commission on Military Punishments, who had suggested the establishment of a central military prison, and whether there was any foundation for the statement that crime in the army was on the increase?
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, that one of the first questions which came before him on taking Office was the first Report of the Commission upon this subject, and he had been very desirous of putting into the Estimates of the present year a sum of money for the purpose of carrying into effect the recommendation as to the central prison. Upon consultation, however, with Colonel Henderson and his hon. Friend the Member
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  for Truro (Captain Vivian), who was a Member of the Commission, he came to the conclusion that it would be premature to do so, not from the slightest unwillingness to give effect to the Report of the Commission, but for these reasons—In their first Report the Commissioners recommended many alterations in the mode of punishment which would diminish the number of imprisonments, substituting fines; for example, for drunkenness, which was the fertile mother of all imprisonments. It was thus highly probable that the number of imprisonments might be diminished. Then the contemplated reduction in the number of men might lead to the disappearance of the most frequent inhabitants of the military prisons. And, lastly, he thought it better to wait until the final Report of the Commission had been presented, together with the evidence, so that Parliament might be fully informed upon the whole subject.
  COLONEL WILSON-PATTENsaid, the Commission had presented their first Report because they thought that the Government should be put in possession of their opinion that, consequent upon the abolition of corporal punishment in the army, it was necessary that some system of severer punishments should be adopted in order to prevent crimes that were likely to prevail. The Commission, among other things, had recommended the infliction of severer punishments than could be inflicted under the present prison system, and for that reason they had suggested the building of a new central prison. He hoped this suggestion would be carried out without delay. At the present moment, there was scarcely a military prison where punishment could be inflicted according to the mode recommended by the Commission. The recommendation of the Commission should be carried out as soon as possible, for since the abolition of corporal punishment certain crimes, such as insubordination, had increased. He would, therefore, suggest to the Secretary of State for "War that, under these circumstances, the civil prisons throughout the country should be made available for military punishments until the prison referred to could be built.
  MR. OTWAYsaid, he was surprised at the statement that crime had increased in the army since the abolition of corporal punishment. He had heard nothing

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  of this. On the contrary, according to his information, there had been a great improvement in the character of the army, and the character of the men who offered themselves for enlistment was much higher. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would take an early opportunity of laying some evidence of his statement before the House.
  COLONEL WILSON-PATTENsaid, he should lose no time in doing so. He did not know where the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Otway) had got his facts, but they were certainly very different from what were stated before the Commission. He had that very morning been informed upon the highest possible authority, that there had been a very great increase of the crime of insubordination in the army. For instance, in 1866, that crime prevailed in one branch of that service at the rate of ·6 per cent, in 1867, it was ·9 per cent, while, in 1868, it had risen to 1·9 per cent. This had not been given in evidence before the Commission, but if the hon. Gentleman would come before the Commission and state any evidence to the contrary effect they would be delighted to hear him, and his statements might materially affect the Report of the Commission.
  MR. OTWAYsaid, that it would be unnecessary for him to do so, seeing that the right hon. Gentleman was going to lay the evidence on which he based his opinion before the House, when it could be discussed. It was not, however, absolutely necessary to take information on this subject from a Royal Commission, and he could only say that several commanding officers had informed him that the state of the army had improved since the abolition of corporal punishment. If the right hon. Gentleman was about to show that crime had increased since the abolition of corporal punishment, he thought they had letter wait until they had the evidence before them.
  COLONEL WILSON-PATTENsaid, the hon. Gentleman should not misrepresent him. What he had said was, not that crime had increased, but that one particular crime had increased. The Commission were taking the greatest pains to obtain information on the point, and if the hon. Gentleman really possessed it he ought to let them have it. The Commission would be delighted to
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  have any proof that one crime was not on the increase.
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, he thought it would be wiser to wait for the evidence before they discussed the matter further.
  MR. ALDERMAN LUSKsaid, he wished to know whether the conduct of men had been better since the abolition of flogging than it was before, seeing that the Estimates for detection of crime and for imprisonment had decreased by £15,000?
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, in reply, that the apparent reduction was owing to changes made with regard to clothing and stores which were transferred to another Vote.
  Vote agreed, to.
  (5.) £366,800, Hospital Establishment, Services, and Supplies.
  VISCOUNT BURYsaid, there was an item of £1,123 under the head of contingencies of the Medical Department for travelling. He had been informed that in a regiment quartered in London several invalids were ordered for change of air to some place on the sea-coast; but they were unable to take advantage of the order because no fund existed to pay their travelling expenses. The consequence was that the services of these men wore likely to be permanently lost to the country. He wished to know whether the item he had referred to included any sum for the travelling expenses of convalescents for change of air.
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, the item alluded to by the noble Lord had reference to the travelling expenses of medical officers. There was no sum provided in this Estimate for the travelling expenses of convalescents.
  LORD GARLIESsaid, the charge of £4,700 for the treatment of lunatics showed a reduction of £500 on last year. He wished to know on what basis that reduction was made, seeing that there would be a largo increase in the number of troops at home this year?
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, in reply, that lunatics were now more rapidly sent to their parishes than was the case formerly.
  VISCOUNT BURYsaid, that if it was the case that there was no sum available for the conveyance of convalescents to the sea-wide, it was hardly creditable

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  to the country, and he would suggest whether it would not be well to put aside some such sum for the future. He would ask the right hon. Gentleman on the Report of that Vote whether he would not undertake to ask Parliament to set aside such a fund next year?
  Vote agreed to.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £952,700, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge of the Militia and Inspection of Reserve Forces, which will come in course of payment from the 1st day of April 1869 to the 31st day of March 1870, inclusive."
  GENERAL PERCY HERBERTsaid, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would consent to report Progress, as there was an important question to be raised on the Reserve Fund, with which this Vote was connected.
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, he had been waiting for the noble Lord the Member for Haddingtonshire (Lord Elcho), to introduce his Motion. He was not desirous of depriving any hon. Gentleman of an opportunity of raising a discussion on a particular Vote. He had consented to postpone the Yeomanry Vote; but they had not yet been an hour in Committee of Supply, and the noble Lord, if he did not bring forward the question at that moment, could raise the discussion at another opportunity on the Motion that the House resolve into a Committee of Supply on the Army Estimates.
  LORD ELCHOsaid, he was anxious to have a full discussion on the important question of the Army of Reserve, of which the Militia was one of the main elements, and it would be perfectly absurd to begin the discussion at that hour (twenty minutes to twelve o'clock). There had been a general impression that the Votes bearing on that question would be postponed. He should endeavour to condense his remarks as much as possible; but it was quite impossible that the matter could have been adequately dealt with at the hour the House went into Committee—eleven o'clock.
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, that the noble Lord could not attach more importance than he (Mr. Cardwell) did to the question. As time would only be wasted in discussing what they should do, he would at once consent to postpone the Vote.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  (6.) £1,150,000, Military Stores Departments.
  MR. J. D. LEWISsaid, he rose to call attention to the extensive changes at present being made at the Royal Laboratory, Devonport, and to ask in what manner the work hitherto carried on at that establishment was in future to be performed?
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, the Controller in Chief found that it was not necessary to maintain a separate establishment at Devonport. The duties would be discharged by the Store Department as between 1850 and 1858, and the result would be a considerable economy.
  MR. ALDERMAN LUSKsaid, he wished to know the amount of stores lying in the different depôts, and the value of them?
  MR. CAEDWELLsaid, he was not sure how far it was possible to give an inventory of stores in different parts of the world, but he should be extremely happy at any time to communicate to the House all the information he could collect on the subject. Every means would be taken to get rid of surplus stores. There was a considerable reduction in this Vote, which he had no doubt would be regarded with great satisfaction by the Committee.
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTONasked, whether a larger proportion of the arms had not been made at Birmingham than had previously been the case?
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, the power of the Small Arms Factory had not been diminished, though it was now being worked at a low point from there being very little work to do. It was true that a small portion of the Enfield rifles required for the service had been given to manufacturing companies, because it was economical to rely in some degree upon the trade for supplies, and not to maintain establishments large enough to supply the whole of our requirements. With regard to the new Henry-Martini rifles, 200 were being manufactured, which would not be ready until August, though a few would be ready for the use of the National Rifle Association at Wimbledon. A portion of the machinery at Enfield was being altered for the purpose of making this new rifle, and then they would be made in larger quantities, though the first decision as to whether the Henri-Martini would be the arm of the service could not be taken until they had been tried in hot and cold climates.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONasked if the establishment at Enfield was to remain as it was now?
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, that there would be no alteration at Enfield, except that a smaller number of men would be employed, as there was less work to do.
  SIR PATRICK O'BRIENsaid, he wished to ask whether it would not be better that in future this portion of the Estimate relating to the navy should be placed under the management of the Admiralty?
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, he had no doubt it would be very satisfactory to anyone who had to move the Army Estimates to be relieved of all that related to the naval service, but he could not say that the navy had much at present to complain of. There was the best possible understanding between his right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty and himself, and he did not know that any change would be made in that matter.
  Vote agreed to.
  (7.) £884,000, Works, Buildings, and Repairs.
  MR. O. W. MARTINsaid, he wished to call attention to the position of the clerks of works of the Royal Engineer department, who within the last few years had been compelled to serve abroad, and whose widows were not allowed pensions supposing the men died on active service. These officers had insured their lives, and when ordered on foreign service their insurances were vitiated. A discussion had taken place last year, when General Dunne called attention to the position of clerks of works in the Engineers' department, and a sort of half-promise was given that the claims of their widows should be considered.
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, he was not aware that his hon. Friend intended to bring that matter forward. He confessed the case was entirely new to him, but he would consider it. That question, however, ought properly to be raised on the Non-effective Votes. He believed that no pensions were contemplated in the case of clerks of works, but he would inquire.
  MR. WHITBREADsaid, he wished to know what his right hon. Friend intended to do with reference to the Report of the Court Martial Commission on the subject of military prisons. The
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  Commission recommended either that a central military prison should be established at Aldershot, or that a contract should be made with local prisons ready to receive military prisoners. If his right hon. Friend would do either the one or the other he should be content.
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, he had desired to include an estimate for a central military prison in the present Estimates, but not having yet received the final Report of the Commission, and being doubtful as to the number of prisoners for whom provision ought to be made, he thought it better to wait for the Report, and hold himself at liberty to propose an estimate for the prison a little later, if it were found necessary to do so.
  SIR ROBERT ANSTRUTHERsaid, he desired some explanation as to the Vote of £32,000 for the purchase of ground for storehouses at North. Woolwich.
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, in reply, that the amount originally proposed was £70,000, but the Control Department at Woolwich had effected a considerable saving in reference to the matter, and the store houses in question being no longer wanted would be re-sold.
  COLONEL BARTTELOTsaid, he wished for an explanation of the excess over the original estimate of £260,000 for the defences of the dockyard and naval anchorage at Bermuda. The estimate had now increased to £375,000.
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, the increase was very vexatious, and arose partly from the fact that there was no convict labour available, and partly because the compensation under a local Act was assessed by local juries, who gave much larger sums than were anticipated.
  Vote agreed to.
  House resumed.
  Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again upon Wednesday.

  PAROCHIAL SCHOOLMASTERS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. M'LAREN, Bill to amend the Law relating to the appointment of Parochial Schoolmasters in Scotland, ordered to be brought in by Mr. M'LAREN, Sir EDWARD COLEBEOOKE, and Mr. FORDTCE.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 72.]
  House adjourned at a quarter after Twelve o'clock.