Commons Sitting of 23 June 1868

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Ordered—New Zealand (Legislative Council)*.
First Reading—New Zealand (Legislative Council)* [185]; Poor Relief* [186].
Second Reading—Adulteration of Food or Drink. Act Amendment* [161]; Military at Elections (Ireland) [95], further adjourned; Railways (Ireland) Act Amendment * [123].
Select Committee—Registration* [167] nominated; Petit Juries (Ireland)* [70] nominated; Married Women's Property* [89] nominated; Electric Telegraphs [82] nominated.
Committee—Public Schools (re-comm.) [135]—R.P.
Third Reading—Local Government Supplemental (No. 6)* [175], and passed.
Withdrawn—Ecclesiastical Titles [37].

ECCLESIASTICAL ESTABLISHMENT OF JAMAICA.—QUESTION.
MR. W E. FORSTERsaid, he would now beg to ask the Under Secretary of Slate for the Colonies, If he can inform the House whether Sir J. P. Grant, the Governor of Jamaica, has acted in accordance with his Despatch to the Earl of Carnarvon of the 24th November 1866 (Parliamentary Paper, Affairs of Jamaica, July, 1867), in which he states that he has proposed to the Bishop of Kingston to fill up no vacancies occurring in the Ecclesiastical Establishment of Jamaica between the date of such Despatch and the close of the year 1869, when the Colonial Statutes affecting such Establishment expire; and, whether there has been and Correspondence between the Colonial Office and the Governor of Jamaica respecting the course to be taken upon the expiration of the Jamaica Clergy Acts; and, if so, whether he will lay such Correspondence upon the Table of the House?
MR. ADDERLEYsaid, in reply, that Sir J. P. Grant had acted in accordance with the views of the Home Government, that the Ecclesiastical Establishment of Jamaica should be reduced on account of its being considered excessive; and that consequently no vacancies would be filled up at present. Several vacancies had occurred since the Despatch alluded to had been received, but arrangements had been made to have the duties of these clergymen temporarily discharged in view of the revision of the whole system, which would take place in December 1869, when the

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present Jamaica Clergy Act expires. With regard to the latter part of the Question of the hon. Gentleman, he had to say that the Governor of Jamaica had expressed his belief that it was premature to advise at present what course should be taken upon the expiration of the Jamaica Clergy Acts, and the Colonial Office would wait for further communications before taking any step in the matter.
MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he wished to know, If the total abolition of the Ecclesiastical Establishments of Jamaica will be proposed if it should be thought expedient?
MR. ADDERLEYsaid, the total abolition of the Church Establishment in Jamaica was by no means contemplated either by the Governor of that Island or by Her Majesty's Government; but that nothing which had been done would preclude such a proposition as that being made if such a thing could ever be thought desirable by those concerned.

METROPOLIS—CLERKENWELL EXPLOSION.—QUESTION.
MR. NEATEsaid, he would beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether he has received a statement of the amount of the sum raised by private subscription for the relief of the sufferers by the Clerkenwell Explosion, and of the past and proposed future application of such sum; and, whether he will lay such statement upon the Table of the House?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, in reply, that the Papers to which his hon. Friend referred had only just come into his hands, and he must have time to consider whether they were of such a nature that he could lay them on the table as public documents. He thought they were exceedingly indebted to the gentlemen who had undertaken the duties of the Relief Committee, and who had shown the greatest and most philanthropic assiduity and kindness in dealing with the cases of distress which had come under their notice; and there could be no doubt that the sufferings of those who had been the victims of the explosion had been very much alleviated by the exertions of the Committee. It would be necessary to propose to the House in the course of the present Session an Estimate of the damage done to the owners of property through the explosion, and he hoped that on that occasion he would be able to make a state-
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ment of what had been done by private subscription towards the relief of the sufferers.

PUBLIC SCHOOLS (re-committed) BILL.
(Mr. Walpole, Sir Stafford Northcote, Mr. Secretary Gathorne Hardy.)
PUBLIC SCHOOLS (re-committed) BILL.

  [BILL 135.] COMMITTEE.
  Order for Committee read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
  Bill considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Clause 5 (Power of Governing Bodies to alter their Constitutions).
  MR. NEWDEGATE MR. NEWDEGATE moved, as an Amendment, in page 2, line 38, to leave out "sixty-nine," and insert "seventy," in order to prolong the powers of the existing governing bodies to the 1st of January, 1870, instead of to the 1st of January, 1869. The 1st of January, 1870, was the date fixed by the other House; and he thought that six months, during which the country would be disturbed by a General Election, was too short a term of existence for governing bodies against whom no complaint had been made.
  Amendment proposed in page 2, line 38, to leave out the word "sixty-nine," and insert the word "seventy,"—(Mr. Newdegate,)—instead thereof.
  MR. POWELLsaid, the Select Committee on the Bill had not thought it desirable to continue the powers of the governing bodies for a long period, notwithstanding the arguments pressed on them by the hon. Gentleman. It was thought desirable that the period of suspense should be as short as possible. The only function of the existing bodies would be that of suggesting who should be their successors; and as there was power of prolonging their existence for another three months, he contended that nine months would allow them ample time to prepare a scheme. Some of them, indeed, were already engaged in the task. He hoped the House would sustain the decision of the Select Committee upstairs, so as to enable the schools to have at the earliest possible period a permanent governing body, which would carry out the reforms so much needed.
  MR. KARSLAKEsupported the Amendment, thinking that his hon. Friend (Mr.

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  Newdegate) asked very little in demanding that the present governing bodies should discharge their duties for another year.
  MR. NEATEsaid, that the mistake which was made throughout the Bill was in confounding the governing body of these schools, who knew little or nothing about them, with the Master and Fellows of the Colleges of the University, who really were the governing bodies of the Colleges. The recommendations of the Select Committee were unanimously made, and he hoped the Committee would reject the Amendment.
  MR. NEWDEGATEprotested against the hon. Member's assertion that the governing body of Rugby, of which he was a member, knew little about the School. The evidence taken before the House of Lords would show that this was a total, entire, and gross mistake. The governing bodies resided within a limited distance of the School, and met four or five times to consult about its affairs. But the object clearly was to get rid of their interference altogether.
  MR. NEATEcomplained of the words "grossmis-statement" as un-Parliamentary. The evidence in regard to Rugby was that the regulations of the School were in practice delegated to the Head master; that the interposition of the governing body was unusual, and the present Head master said he could call to mind no instance of such interposition within his experience.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, the word he used was "mistake," He could assure the hon. and learned Gentleman that the functions of the governing body of Rugby were no sinecure.
  MR. LIDDELLsaid, that the "governing body" of Eton had been the Provost, and he, in his desire to extend and improve the School, had obtained large dispensing-powers from the visitor in regard to the interpretation of the statutes. The bursar was strongly in favour of running out the leases, and he therefore claimed for the governing body of Eton the desire of improving and extending the benefits of that School. He had much greater confidence in the present governing body than in the body of Commissioners proposed by the Bill. He would certainly support his hon. Friend's (Mr. Newdegate's) most reasonable and sensible proposition to give at least a little time to those governing bodies to look round them, undisturbed by those external influences which had been referred to, before that alteration of the statutes
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  which appeared to be so much desired by the House.
  MR. DARBY GRIFFITHdescribed the legislation which had taken place in respect to our Universities and schools as hap-hazard. He thought that there was really only a nominal distinction between the present governing bodies and those which it was proposed to substitute for them. Another anomaly in regard to that Bill was that it was treated as a Government Bill, although, if any Government was really responsible for it, it was not the present, but the late Government. It was a mistake to deal in that way with a measure of that kind, which ought to be left to the free judgment of the House.
  Question put. "That the word 'sixty-nine' stand part of the Clause."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 109; Noes 25: Majority 84.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clause 6 (Governing Body to make Statutes, under Restrictions).
  MR. NEWDEGATE MR. NEWDEGATE moved the omission of the word "new" in line 10; his object being, he said, to leave the existing governing bodies as unfettered in the right of making suggestions to the Commissioners as the bodies by whom they were to be succeeded would be.
  Amendment proposed, in page 3, line 10, to leave out the word "new."—(Mr. Newdegate.)
  MR. WALPOLEsaid, that alteration was, in point of fact, an attempt to renew the discussion which had already taken place on the Motion of his hon. Friend on another clause; and, if successful, would leave everything in a state of uncertainty.
  Question put, "That the word 'new' stand part of the Clause."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 133; Noes 9: Majority 124.
  MR. J. LOWTHER MR. J. LOWTHER moved to leave out in page 3, line 28, the words of the 3rd section—
  "With respect to the privileges and number of boys who, under any Statute or Benefaction, may be entitled to any rights to education or maintenance."
  The object of those words was to enable the choristers of Westminster Abbey to be introduced into Westminster School; and the authorities engaged in education

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  at Westminster School were of opinion that such an arrangement would not work, for the hours at which the choristers were required to attend in the Abbey would preclude them from following the course of education in the School. If it were suggested that the choristers had a claim under statute to be provided with education, he could only say that such a claim was not supported by the Royal Commission. They had no more right than the Chapter tenants.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, he thought that many Members who voted in the last division were not aware of the effect of the votes they gave, and therefore he wished to know whether, under the words introduced into the 5th clause, power would be preserved to the existing governing body to make recommendations with respect to boys on the foundation, for the 1st section of the present clause appeared to give that power only to the new governing body?
  MR. WALPOLEexplained that the existing governing bodies were empowered to make statutes for the constitution of the new governing bodies, and the power was conferred on the new governing bodies, and on them alone, to make the statutes for the future regulation of the schools.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, he was most anxious to have the matter properly cleared up; because he was at a loss to understand what the governing bodies of Rugby and Harrow had done that an Act should be passed incapacitating them even to recommend statutes with respect to the future constitution of the schools.
  MR. ACLANDsaid, he confessed he did not exactly understand this very complicated Bill. He wished to know whether the statutes referred to in Clause 6 were to be permanent or distinguishable from the other statutes and regulations to be passed at the end of next year.
  MR. WALPOLEsaid, the clause embodied that class of statutes which were likely to be permanent for the regulation of the schools.
  MR. BENTINCK,being responsible for the proposal made before the Committee with reference to the education of the choristers, was bound to say, in reply to the observations of his hon. Friend (Mr. J. Lowther), that the Committee had been unanimous on the subject, which his hon. Friend would find by referring to the Report of their proceedings. His hon. Friend did not seem to have informed himself as
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  to the true facts of the case. He compared the choristers with the sons of tenants of the Chapter estate, but there was no analogy between them whatever. Under the statutes, as soon as a chorister had learnt the different parts of speech he was entitled to free education in the School, or to be placed under the master. The education now received by the choristers was given in a species of national school, to which parents were disinclined to send their sons, and was not by any means equal to what was provided for others maintained on the same principle. The provision in this clause was entirely permissive. There was no obligation on the governing body to introduce the choristers into Westminster School; but he did not see why they should not have the power, if they thought fit, to put these boys under the superintendence of the masters. The hon. Member was wrong in assuming that the masters at Westminster were opposed to this provision. The condition of these boys at Westminster was most unsatisfactory, and would be greatly improved by this provision being carried into effect. He opposed the Amendment.
  MR. J. STUART MILLearnestly hoped that the Committee would not adopt the Amendment proposed by the hon. Member for York. One of the most scandalous abuses connected with endowed schools was that the endowments intended for the education of children of parents who could not afford to pay for their education, had been in fact confiscated for the benefit of those who could afford to pay for it. Whether this was a case of the kind he did not know; but it appeared that the choristers and the sons of the tenants of the Dean and Chapter had some rights by virtue of the old endowment. The clause did not define their rights, or state whether such rights existed; it merely gave the governing body the power to consider whether such rights existed, and to take measures with respect to them. The subject had attracted the attention of the working classes themselves. To his own knowledge there had been formed in the North of England an association of the working classes to obtain a restoration of their rights—he would not say in Westminster School particularly—but in endowed schools generally. Unless means were taken to deal with this question by a measure of wider extent, the feeling amongst the working classes would grow

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  much stronger, and the House might expect to hear a great deal more of it. It was not merely that there were rights, but the rights were known by the persons for whose benefit they were created. The House would do well to give to the authorities who were to make the now statutes the power of considering this matter amongst others.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEopposed the Amendment. The clause was merely permissive, and put it in the power of the governing authorities to make the best provision they could for these boys. When the matter was brought before the Public Schools Commission they were of opinion that it was not desirable to attempt to force these boys into the School but that some other provision should be made for them, by apprenticing them, or otherwise providing for them at the expense of the funds of the School. He hoped that the clause would be retained in the Bill.
  MR. BERESFORD HOPEhoped that the hon. Member for York (Mr. J. Lowther) would not persist in pressing his Amendment.
  MR. MARSHobserved that the foundations at Westminster had always been open to competitive examination, and therefore could not be regarded as the exclusive right of any particular class.
  MR. J. LOWTHER,in reply to the observation of the right hon. Gentleman (Sir Stafford Northcote) that the clause was permissive, stated that it was for that reason that he objected to it. The words of the clause were vague and unmeaning, and might contain a great deal more than appeared on the face of them. The proposition, if carried, would re open a controversy that had lasted for many years, and would leave to the new governing body a damnosa hœreditas. An hon. Member had complained that he had not brought down the Latin statutes of that House; but the fact was that he had quoted from the Report of the Royal Commission.
  MR. ACLANDconcurred in the proposal for separating the seven schools mentioned in the Bill from the question of the general grammar schools of the country; but, at the same time, he entreated the Committee not to place the inhabitants of Westminster, Eton, and Winchester in a worse position for the sake of the higher education which it was desirable should be maintained in these schools. The House would not be acting justly towards the
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  artizans and small farmers if some portions of the rich foundations of these schools were not made available for the education of their children.
  MR. LOCKEbegged to read the following extract from one of the statutes:—
  "The choristers shall go to our school that they may gain a, proficiency in grammar, and remain there for at least two hours and be taught by the master."
  That clearly showed that these boys should, to all intents and purposes, be placed in the same position us the scholars of the Westminster School. He did not see why these scholars should be entirely of the richer class. They were established for all classes—rich and poor. It would be unfair and unjust, and at variance with the foundations themselves, to appropriate these schools only to the rich. He should give his support, therefore, to that portion of the clause as it stood; but whether it was sufficiently definite he could not say.
  Amendment negatived.
  MR. ACLANDrepeated his suggestion with regard to the propriety of making provision for the establishment of third-rate schools.
  MR. WALPOLEsaid, he thought it was rather inconvenient in the middle of the discussion on this clause to raise such a question. If any proposition of the kind were made he was sure the Committee would consider it.
  MR. KARSLAKEsuggested that by referring to part of Clause 7, the hon. Gentleman would get an answer to his question.
  MR. NEATE MR. NEATE moved in page o, sub-section 7, at end, to add—
  "And in the case of Eton and Winchester Colleges, with respect to future income and all other, emoluments of the future provost and fellows and the future warden and fellows, and with respect to the number, emoluments, and advantages to be hereafter enjoyed by all the members of each foundation, or by those now entitled to any payment thereout, and subject thereto, for the establishment or foundation of some other College or School in connection with Eton and Winchester Colleges respectively, and subject to the same governing body as the College in each case."
  MR. WALPOLEexplained that he had himself prepared an Amendment in reference to the same point; but confessed, if it were at all necessary—which he doubted—that he would prefer his hon. und learned Friend's provision to the one he had prepared himself. The matter was complicated, and he should like to

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  confer with the draftsman before he finally adopted it. He therefore proposed to postpone it on the understanding that it should be again brought before them on the Report.
  MR. WHITBREADprotested that nothing had been said with reference to the poor foundations. He was sure that when these schools were placed under the new governing bodies, large bodies of boarders and foundationers could not exist together, but the rich boarders would gradually eat up the foundationers. He hoped care would be taken to prevent such an evil.
  MR. NEATEsaid, he would withdraw his Amendment.
  MR. AYRTONwas about to address the Committee, when
  THE CHAIRMANreminded the hon. and learned Member that the Amendment had been withdrawn.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, that to put himself in Order he would re-move the clause, for the reason that he doubted whether the clause that had been put on the Paper by the right hon. Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Walpole) would cover the whole ground covered by the clause proposed by the hon. and learned Member for Oxford (Mr. Neate). The clause contemplated the continuance of the objectionable governing bodies of Eton and Winchester, whereas the proper manner of dealing with the subject would have been to consider how they could have been abolished. They were Colleges only in the sense of gathering together half-a-dozen idle, useless people, who are maintained at the public expense. In conclusion the hon. and learned Member re-moved the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Oxford.
  MR. WALPOLEsaid, he hoped the Amendment would not be pressed, on the ground that it would be difficult to deal with Eton and Winchester in the manner proposed in the same Bill that had reference to schools differing from those named in the proposed clause. If the Question was postponed to the time when the Report was brought up they would have an opportunity of having the clause better considered.
  Amendment negatived.
  MR. J. STUART MILLsaid, he wished to impress upon the right hon. Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Walpole), who had charge of the Bill, the importance of the suggestion that had
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  been made by the hon. Member for North Devon (Mr. Acland). The schools whose case they were considering differed from schools generally, in that they were schools intended for the purpose of imparting the highest class of education; and no one supposed that this either ought to, or need be given to the whole of the children of the working or lower middle classes. But, on the other hand, the élite of those classes had a right to claim that that sort of education should be afforded to them. To those who are most proficient in the lower grades of education, the next highest ought to be opened at the expense of the magnificent endowments for educational purposes in this country. As ibis was a matter of great importance, requiring to be carefully considered, not so much by the House as by the body the House was about to create, he hoped the Committee would not predetermine that no part of those great endowments should be appropriated to the purpose of providing the higher kinds of education for such persons as those to which he had referred.
  MR. WALPOLEsaid, that one of the great advantages which these schools had conferred upon the people of this country had been that they had furnished opportunities to the children of those classes to obtain the benefits of this higher education; and some of the most distinguished men who had been educated at these schools had sprung from the middle classes. The regulations under the 12th clause indicated the intention of the Committee in that respect by giving facilities to other than boarders to attend the schools and participate in the education given therein.
  MR. ACLANDsaid, it would be easy to accomplish what was wished. It had been shown that the conduct of a perfect school for the upper, lower, and lower-middle class would cost £300 a year, and it was not much to ask that this should be paid out of the magnificent sum of £20,000 at the disposal of the country for educational purposes.
  MR. LIDDELLsaid, that, so far as Winchester College was concerned, any boy could obtain admission, no matter what his social position, provided he could pass a competitive examination.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clause 7 (Consolidation and Amendment of existing Statutes and Regulations).
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, the clause would give the new governing body and the Commissioners the power to consolidate and amend statutes enforced whether by Act of Parliament, charter, or other instrument; and he wished to point out that, taken in conjunction with Clause 20, a very novel precedent would thereby be set, by which an unknown number of Acts of Parliament might be repealed by Order in Council, merely on condition that the scheme for doing so was laid before Parliament for a certain time, without the attention of Parliament being necessarily called to it. He also wished to remind the Committee that the Bill provided no compensation, for the rights of which the lower, middle, and labouring classes were about to be deprived.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clauses 8 to 11 agreed to.
  Clause 12 (General Power to make Regulations),
  SIR HARRY VERNEY SIR HARRY VERNEY moved, in page 7, line 11, after "given," to insert "and whether it is desirable that the Head master should keep a boarding house."
  MR. NEATEsaid, he entirely agreed with the Amendment.
  MR. WALPOLEopposed the Amendment as being incongruous with the language and general structure of the clause.
  MR. ACLAND,having been in the Head masters house at Harrow, bore testimony to the advantage arising from Head masters keeping boarding houses.
  SIR HARRY VERNEYsaid, he would withdraw his Amendment.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clause 13 (Appointment of Masters).
  COLONEL SYKEScomplained that the physical sciences are not more extensively taught in our public schools.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clause 14 (Scheme for Harrow and Rugby).
  MR. KARSLAKErose to move the omission of the words relating to Harrow, in accordance with which the governing body of that School would be empowered to submit to the Commissioners a scheme for appropriating a suitable part of the revenues of the foundation to the promotion of education within the parish of Harrow, in the shape, if deemed expedient, of providing for the maintenance of a separate school. The hon. and learned Gentleman contended that it was contrary
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  to law that the revenues which had been appropriated by John Lyon for the foundation of a grammar school should be diverted to a totally distinct purpose; and he entirely concurred with those who thought it desirable that those great foundations should be made as far as possible available for middle-class education; but then the combined effect of the 6th and 10th clauses would, in his opinion, do all that was necessary in that respect. Let everything he done to ameliorate those foundations and to extend their objects; but it was not right to take a school such as John Lyon founded and cut it into two, thereby departing from the intention of the founder. In making these observations, he believed that he expressed the opinions of the inhabitants of the locality. He had here a letter of the Vicar of Harrow, who coincided in the views of those who wished to see Harrow School modified lo meet the requirements of the time, having a lower form, with power to the pupils of that form to rise to the higher ranks of the School, but who did not desire to see a lower school established separate from the present School. If once the House adopted the principle that they might entirely upset the intentions of the founders it would be impossible to say where they could stop. He entreated hon. Members to be merciful to Harrow School, which certainly had a fair claim to the sympathy of both sides of the House, having educated a great number of Members, and among them two Prime Ministers. The hon. and learned Gentleman concluded by moving in page 8, line 18, to leave out from commencement to line 41, relating to Harrow School, and make the formal alterations consequent on leaving out such part of clause.
  MR. GOSCHENsaid, he believed the fact to be that, as regarded Harrow, no tradesman or farmer there had sent his son to that School for thirty years. The object of the clause was not to take away the educational privileges of the lower classes, of which they at present did not take advantage, but to give them a school better suited to their station in life, and which would be better adapted to their educational wants. Under the present law, the privileges of Harrow were considerably abused. Parents who were not connected with the locality went to Harrow and located themselves there solely with the view of getting a cheap high-class education for their sons, although

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  they were perfectly able to pay in full for that education. The clause was designed to mitigate that evil, and by way of compensation to the lower classes it was proposed to establish another school for them. There was great difficulty in combining a day school with boarding, and the system was not found to be in accordance with the best interests of the school. The objection raised to the alteration proposed by the trades people of Harrow and Rugby was contained in the last words of the memorial referred to by the hon. and learned Member—it would tend to the depreciation, of their property; in other words, they were afraid their houses would not let so well if there was not this migration from London to obtain a gratuitous education.
  MR. BERESFORD HOPEsaid, he had possessed the advantage of having been what John Lyon had termed a "foreigner" at Harrow, and he was inclined to think that the views of his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Colchester and those of his right hon. Friend the Member for London were not so incompatible. On the one side was the undoubted fact that John Lyon had intended his foundation primarily for the inhabitants of Harrow itself; and, on the other, the fact that those educational advantages were abused by reason of the cause just mentioned, Harrow having, in consequence of improved communication—and specially, thanks to the London and North Western Railway—for some time past laboured under what was the misfortune in one point of view and the advantage in another of having virtually become a suburb of London. Building operations had gone on extensively at Harrow; part of the advantage being the cheaper education which John Lyon's foundation afforded to residents. To call that a gratuitous education was an exaggeration; for, although the Head master's fee was excused, the payment to the tutor continued; but it was certainly cheaper, and it was taken advantage of by many who ought to blush for shame Still there were poor gentlefolk—widows and others of very limited means—who in the exercise of the highest common sense, amounting almost to a Christian virtue, went to Harrow in order to send their children to the School. It was difficult to draw the line; and each case must be dealt with for itself. Again, there was the case of the tradespeople, who looked to Lyon's foundation as a
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  means of obtaining a commercial education, and, at the same time, to not losing the prestige of their connection with the old and famous School. He could not say that John Lyon would not have sympathized with their appeal. The promoters of the clause argued that the people who so went to live at Harrow were not its genuine inhabitants. But is it certain that Lyon himself would not have hailed the material improvement and enlargement of the town as a result of his foundation? It is certain that he left the larger portion of his property to mend the roads between Harrow and London, and unfortunately only a driblet to the School itself. There was something to be said on this side of the case, and there was also something to be advanced on the other side, which had been brought forward by the hon. and learned Member for Colchester (Mr. Karslake). Looking at the matter in all its lights, he would not say that the present use of John Lyon's benefaction was such as he himself would have repudiated, though it was to be deplored that boys were sent to Harrow who could afford to pay the fees of the Head master but did not do so. Generally, then, he thought it was a case, not for an inflexible regulation such as the clause proposed, but for investing the Head master with wide discretionary powers. He was as anxious as anyone to see the lower "English" school well established; but he thought that it ought to be a subsidiary portion of the great foundation and not a smaller and independent one. This end would be attained by the Amendment of his hon. and learned Friend, and in a still more compendious way by that of the hon. Viscount the Member for Middlesex. For his own part, he thought the best way out of the difficulty would be to establish minor or commercial forms, and to give the Head master the absolute discretion of sending the town boys either to the higher or the lower forms, according to the facts of each application. He thought, moreover, that power should be given to the Head master to admit the sons of decayed gentlemen to the higher class education should he deem it prudent or desirable that such should be done. This would, of course, test the bonâ fides of each ease; for the master could refuse the benefits of the cheaper classical education whenever the parent was clearly capable of paying the ordinary fees, while the meritorious poor boys could be let in. It would, at the

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  same time, quite silence the sentimental grievance which, backed as it was by a clause for substantial advantages, might otherwise become trouble some. Moreover, the claim as it stood had the disadvantage of making the master of the proposed new school independent of the Head master of the old one. It required but little knowledge of human nature to see how likely this would be to create jealousy and disputation. On the whole, then, he would advise the promoters to withdraw the clause, and see if some arrangement could not be reached. The question could be brought up again on the Report.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, that the real question was, whether the endowments should be allowed to be kept for the wealthier classes of society, or not, and whether children of the poor should be deprived of the education intended by the founder? Then came the question, how the clause affected a large class of persons who did not wish their sons to have a high classical education; but who were nevertheless reluctant to give up any privileges they had at present? He could not understand why the operation of the clause should be confined to Harrow and Rugby. If they were to finally dispose of the funds of the founders they ought to have regard to the rights of the boys in the district. It appeared to him that the clause was intended to restrict the advantages of the schools to the wealthier classes. The proper mode of treating the clause was to make it not special, but general, so that some part, at least, of the endowments might be made available for the benefit of all classes of society living in the neighbourhood of the schools.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, he was anxious that Rugby should be included in the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Colchester (Mr. Karslake). The founder of Rugby, Lawrence Sheriff, in tended that all classes of persons in and around Rugby should participate in the benefits of the School, and by his will expressly provided against the separation of classes. The sons of the poor of Rugby had frequently risen to eminence in consequence of the education they had received at the School; and the inhabitants of that town joined in the prayers of the people of Harrow that their children might not be deprived of the advantages to be obtained at that School. The present system avoided the separation of classes; it encouraged the settlement in the town of
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  retired officers and others, who sent their sons to the School and watched over its social welfare, and it enabled poor boys of talent to rise to a higher position. He hoped, therefore, that Rugby would be included in the Amendment, as the case was stronger even than that of Harrow.
  MR. POLLARD-URQUHARTsaid, he believed the inhabitants of these towns greatly prized the privileges they at present possessed, and thought the Committee should hesitate to curtail them.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEremarked, that if the clause were omitted the Commissioners, or the new governing body, would have ample powers, under previous clauses, to proceed in the way directed by it. The only object of the clause was to give them precise directions, instead of leaving the matter to their discretion. The Public School Commissioners recommended that, in consideration of the change of circumstances, the exclusive privileges enjoyed by the residents of Harrow and Rugby should be curtailed, and that, as some compensation, provision should be made for their benefit. Now, their recommendations had been embodied in the Bill with the intention of benefiting this class; but as it appeared that they not only were not grateful for it, but were inclined to oppose it, he thought the wisest course would be to abstain, on this as on other points, from giving precise directions, and to intrust the Commissioners and new governing bodies with wide powers. It would then be open to them to consult the inhabitants of these places, and ascertain what was the best and most acceptable scheme. A noble Lord opposite (Viscount Enfield) had suggested a lower, instead of separate school, and this raised a very important question; but he doubted whether it could be so well considered by Parliament as by the Commissioners, He would suggest, therefore, that the early part of the clause should be withdrawn or negatived, retaining the proviso at the end for the preservation of the rights of persons now living.
  MR. LABOUCHERE,as a representative of the county in which Harrow was situate, thought the suggestion just made by the right hon. Gentleman eminently satisfactory. The clause was introduced for the benefit of the tradesmen of Harrow, but they did not like it, and said they did not want it.
  MR. SERJEANT GASELEEsaid, he was opposed to all restrictions.
  VISCOUNT ENFIELDsaid, that the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman (Sir Stafford Northcote) would be eminently satisfactory to the inhabitants of Harrow.
  MR. KARSLAKEsaid, that there was a decided objection on the part of the inhabitants of Harrow to the establishment of a new school. He had no objection to withdraw his Amendment in favour of the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman.
  Clause, as amended, added to the Bill.
  Clause 15 (Saving of Rights).
  MR. ACLANDsaid, he would be glad to hear from the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Walpole) that the Commissioners would have power to establish subordinate schools.
  MR. WALPOLEsaid, he could not then give an off-hand opinion in answer to the question.
  Clause added to the Bill.
  Clause 16 (Appointment of Commissioners).
  MR. SERJEANT GASELEE MR. SERJEANT GASELEE moved that the clause be postponed. There were certain Gentlemen who were upon every Commission, and a little change was wanted.
  MR. AYRTONwished to know whether the right hon. Gentleman was prepared to insert any other names?
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, it might happen that one of the Gentlemen nominated might not like to serve; but it was not thought desirable at present to propose any additional names.
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, that the right hon. Member for Calne (Mr. Lowe) represented the views of a great number of persons on education, and it was desirable to have the right hon. Gentleman of the Commission.
  MR. LOWEsaid, he was much obliged to the hon. Gentleman for the compliment, but he would much rather be excused.
  MR. SERJEANT GASELEEsuggested that perhaps the right hon. Gentleman did not like the Gentlemen with whom he would be associated. Perhaps if the Committee put in the names of some of the same kidney he might accept.
  MR. WALPOLEsaid, he hoped the hon. and learned Member who moved the postponement of the clause (Mr. Serjeant Gaselee) would not press his Motion, because the Committee would not thereby get an inch nearer. If it were thought necessary to add other names it would be
  1940
  better to propose them; but it would be invidious and almost dangerous to discuss the names now proposed one after the other. There were Gentlemen on the Commission who represented science, as well as the public schools.
  MR. LABOUCHEREregretted that the right hon. Member for Calne declined to serve on the Commission, because he spoke real sound common sense on the subject of education, and would put an end to that system of teaching nothing but Latin and Greek, which made such ignoramuses of them all.
  MR. KARSLAKEsuggested the name of the junior Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Beresford Hope) as an acquisition to the Commission.
  CAPTAIN VIVIANagreed that it would be desirable to postpone the clause until another day.
  MR. BROMLEY-DAVENPORTthought they were merely wasting time by that discussion.
  MR. POWELLsupported the Commission proposed in the Bill, as being constituted in a wise and liberal spirit.
  MR. DARBY-GRIFFITHobjected to the practice of leaving measures to be carried into effect by Commissioners.
  MR. WALPOLEsaid, that as no Notice had been given of any Amendment in that clause, it was hardly possible to discuss the propriety of any alteration in it without having some specific proposition brought before them. He thought the body of Commissioners proposed by the Bill would meet with the general concurrence of the House and the country. If, however, the composition of the Commission as proposed was not deemed satisfactory by any hon. Gentleman, it seemed to him that any Amendment had better be brought forward after Notice. He would venture to suggest that they should pass the clause, and if anybody had any name which it was thought desirable to add to the Commission it might be properly considered on the Report.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, it would place Members of that House in an invidious position if the duty of proposing names were thrown upon them. The duty properly devolved upon the right hon. Gentleman opposite of proposing names which might be deemed on the whole satisfactory. The first name contained in the clause was that of the Archbishop of York, who was chosen, he supposed, to preserve inviolable the Church of England

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  character of the schools, which no doubt he would do with all the zeal and dignity that belonged to his character and his sacred calling. Then, the second name was that of the Marquess of Salisbury, a party I man of such strong Conservatism that he would not associate with the present Government on account of its Liberal tendencies. If, however, the Government acted fairly they would have also added the name of some eminent Member of the, other House who was known and admired for his Liberal views. The nomination of one Gentleman from each side of the House of Commons was a fair selection as far as that House was concerned; but it was the duty of the right hon. Gentleman himself to re-consider that matter, and to propose a name or names.
  MR. ACLANDthought that no substantial objection had been urged against the composition of the Commission, and hoped the Committee would support the Government in the proposal which they made.
  MR. GLADSTONEexpressed his concurrence with the hon. and learned Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) in the opinion that it was not desirable an individual Member of the House should take upon himself the responsibility of naming a Gentleman to be placed upon the Commission; because what they had to look at was not merely the qualities and characteristics of an individual considered alone but the manner in which he entered into the composition of the Bill as a whole. It was only the framers of the Bill who could, he thought, take the initiative in that respect with advantage. He therefore was opposed to any vague postponement of the clause, which could lead to no practical good, and which might have the effect, at this period of the Session, of preventing; the passing of a measure which, it must; be admitted, would on the whole accomplish a very great and important change. The Commission was not, so far as he could see, in any way open to the charge of having been constituted with anything like palpable unfairness; and he should, under these circumstances, give his support to the proposal of the Government. The political element seemed to be fairly balanced.
  MR. SERJEANT GASELEEargued in favour of the postponement of the clause in order that the composition of the Commission might be more fully discussed. He should like to know how many of
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  those Gentlemen whose names were proposed as members of it were remarkable for their Ritualistic tendencies. He did not see that the Noblemen and Gentlemen named in the Bill were more fit to perform, the office of Commissioners than many others who could be named.
  Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 140; Noes 2: Majority 138.
  House resumed.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

ARMY RESERVE.

  MOTION FOR A COMMISSION.
  LORD ELCHOrose to move the following Resolution—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to appoint a Royal Commission to inquire into and report upon our Military Organization, in so far as it relates to the establishment of a sufficient and economical Army of Reserve, and the means it offers of speedy and efficient expansion to meet the requirements of war, more especially for home defence,"
  The noble Lord said that he offered no apology for bringing the subject before the House, because he considered it to be one of very great importance; but he hoped that the imperfect manner in which it would be brought forward would not prevent it from receiving from the House and the country that attention which it merited. At present all Europe was engaged in re-organizing its military power in the most efficient and economical manner. Prussia set the example; Austria was not slow to follow in the footsteps of her successful rival, examining the cause of the Prussian successes, and placing her army on a sounder footing: France, the jealous neighbour and rival of Prussia, had likewise endeavoured to trace this cause, and nearly the whole of the winter had been, employed by the French Chamber in discussing the amendment of the military law. Whether those nations were thus engaged for defensive or for aggressive purposes he did not pretend to say. Unquestionably, if they looked at the language used in the French Chamber as to the necessity that France should maintain her legitimate influence in Europe, and should therefore have a large standing army, the impression left on one's mind was that the French people intended, as

  1943
  the phrase was, that no gun should be fired in Europe without the consent of the Tuileries. One could not help feeling that the re-organization of the French army might lead to aggressive tendencies on the part of that people. But England, too, had of late years been re-organizing her military forces. No one could pretend that in so doing we were actuated by any aggressive intentions. We were satisfied with our legitimate influence in Europe; we had no frontiers to rectify; and our re-organization was solely in the interests of peace and for national defence. No complaint then could be made by any other Power of our attempts at re-organization, and he believed that such a re-organization was much needed. Remembering that our Estimates were £15,000,000, and remembering on the other hand what we had to show for that expenditure, he wag inclined to think that our military machine was not as efficient as it might be or as economical as it ought to be. In this belief he asked for a Royal Commission, because he maintained that whatever might be the industry and ability of the right hon. Gentlemen or noble Lords who had held, or might in future hold, Office as Secretary of State for War, it was not possible that they, with their multifarious Parliamentary and departmental duties, could take this machine to pieces, oil it, change some of its parts, and put it properly together again. He did not believe that we required any new laws, but simply proper, judicious, courageous changes in existing laws and our existing system. These changes, however, were such that possibly no Minister might have the courage to propose, and no Parliament the courage to adopt them, unless fortified by the opinion of a Royal Commission of independent and able men, and it was on this ground that he proposed the appointment of such a body. Having premised thus much, he would now state in detail the grounds on which he made this Motion, taking the standard of foreign armies as that by which to judge our own military organization. The main ground lay in the amount of our Estimates, and the small number of men we had to show for the money. In the debate in the French Chamber it was stated that at the present day Russia was capable of bringing into the field 1,600,000 men; Austria, 1,200,000; and Italy, 900,000. Passing by these Powers, however, he would take the standard of other Powers nearer home. In France, as all knew,
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  the system was one of conscription. At the age of twenty every male became liable to serve, but only a certain proportion of the whole population was taken. The males arriving at maturity annually in France were 230,000 out of a population of 39,000,000. The number taken in France depended upon the annual contingent fixed by the Government—a contingent which since 1818 had varied from 40,000 in time of peace to 140,000 during the Crimean war. This had given a minimum force of 400,000 men, and a maximum of somewhere about 600,000 men, with a reserve of 200,000. Probably there ought to be rather more; but out of the thirty-seven communes of France there was one which did not produce the number required, and it was not made up from the other districts. This was under the old system. The new one would give 800,000 men in the First Class and Reserve, and 400,000 National Garde Mobile, making altogether 1,200,000 men. Now, what was the cost of the French army? M. Jules Simon calculated that 400,000 soldiers in France cost 360,000,000f., equal to £14,400,000. As to Prussia, she showed more than any other nation in the world the power that was obtained by successful military organization resting upon a national basis. The Prussian system called on every man of twenty to serve, unless he were exempted for some cause, and the exemptions were not numerous. The result of this system was that though, after Jena, Prussia was bound down by the Peace of Tilsit to have no more than 42,000 men, when war broke out in 1813 she appeared in the field with an army of 132,000 men and 200 guns, while after the battle of Dresden she had 250,000 men and 400 guns. This was with a population of 5,000,000; and in 1866, with a population of 20,000,000, within three weeks of the breaking out of war, Prussia appeared in the field with 400,000 men in their first line, and 900 guns, with reserves which, taken with the first line, amounted altogether to 717,000 men. What was now the position of Prussia, or rather of Northern Germany, as a military power? Her forces were so organized that 1,360,000 men could be brought into the field; and the proportion of young men who came to maturity at twenty in Prussia was much greater than in France. In this country we had a population of about 30,000,000. The number of men

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  voted this year by Parliament, was 203,157, and the reserves numbered 329,000, making a total of 532,157. Deducting from a total of £15,455,400, the cost of the army serving in India, and the cost of the Indian depot in England, and taking the cost of transport for the army from the Navy Estimates, and of stores for the Navy from the Army Estimates, and deducting also, from the total named £1,250,000 for pensions, so as to give a fair standard of comparison with foreign armies, he arrived at the conclusion that the 128,000 men in our regular army cost £11,310,400, while in France the estimated cost of 400,000 men was £14,000,000; and in Prussia, according to Colonel Reilly, 217,000 men cost £6,545,944. The House would readily perceive the great difference there was between the English and the foreign Estimates. It appeared that, man for man, our soldiers cost—a Regular £90, a Militiaman £11 10 s., a Yeomanry soldier £6 or £7, and a Volunteer £3 10 s. This calculation was based on the Estimate of £15,455,400 for the whole army; and, making the deductions and allowances he had enumerated, he arrived at £11,310,400 as the cost of our 128,000 Regulars. Coming to organization, every one knew that in France that was complete. The army was composed of great divisions, each complete in itself. The Invalides was being converted into an arsenal in the centre of Paris, with equipment for; 200,000 men; and such was the power of contraction and expansion that 100,000 men could be summoned to the ranks and sent back again in a fortnight. There were, therefore, complete efficiency, and complete power of expansion; but the power of expansion and contraction was greater in Prussia than in any other country. Within three weeks of the breaking out of the war in 1866 Prussia put on the field 400,000 men and 900 guns, ready in every respect; and these men as we knew, marched from Berlin to the gates of Vienna. That efficiency in time of war was, after all, the result of steady preparation and organization in time of peace. But the Prussians in time of peace practised war, for being at Cologne with; Lord Clyde in 1803, he found the operations of war going on. They saw about: 50,000 or 60,000 men under arms, and divided into two bodies, each body being in itself complete with the general and staff ready for a campaign. The manœuvres of
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  the troops extended over a fortnight, and they did not know on the one day where they were to meet the next morning. On one occasion he was near a regiment when the bugle sounded to stop work for the day, and he inquired, "Where are you going to sleep?" from an officer, who pointed to the ground, and said, "There." In war material, transport, commissariat, medical department, and stores of every description, each division was complete, and each had the same officers and staff in time of peace that it would command in time of war. He remembered reading accounts of the compain in 1866, in which occurred the names of the officers he had seen at Cologne in 1863. Colonel Reilly, from whose book he had drawn much information, described Prussian organization in these terms—
  "The Prussian army rests upon system where the whole nation is accustomed to anus, and moderately disciplined, and where, in time of peace, all means are taken to instruct the staff, and keep up the departments forming the machinery of the army complete in all details; and opportunities are given to all of gaining such knowledge of their professional duties that when war comes the army and its departments can be expanded with confidence in their efficiency."
  Was our state of preparation, as regards military organization, at all comparable with that of Prussia or France; Was our organization such that when war came, "the army and its departments can be expanded with confidence in their efficiency?" Unquestionably, in England there had been very great improvement in the state of our military organization. Before the Crimean War we had a small available army, but we had no Militia and no Volunteers, and but twelve guns equipped. It was really astonishing that the nation should have been allowed to fall asleep as it were, and to remain in the defenceless condition it was. Now, we were armed, but were we sufficiently organized? He did not pretend to say that much had not been done, and that we were not in an improved position; but would anyone say that our military organization was satisfactory, that our departmental find staff arrangements were all that could be desired; and that our transport, commissariat, medical stores, and camp equipage were sufficient for the army, including the Reserves? Much had been said lately as to the organization of our Volunteers, which was described by a high military authority as a sham; but he contended that it was not more a sham than the

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  organization of our Militia or Yeomanry, because the organization of the array was supposed to be sufficient, as regarded staff and departmental arrangements, for the Militia and the Yeomanry as well as the Volunteers. To give the House an idea how utterly inadequate the staff alone was, although it was larger in proportion than that of any other army for the purpose it pretended to serve, he might mention that the staff requisite for the Volunteers alone would number 700. This was the calculation made by Colonel Erekine before he left the War Office; and would any man pretend to say that the staff of the army was sufficient for all that was required if we were suddenly called upon to put ourselves in a state of defence? Would any one say that the commissariat, transport, camp equipage, and other departments, which were quite as essential as men to the army, were capable of immediate and ready expansion within three weeks or a month? Whenever war came it would come suddenly, and the advantage would be with nations that were so prepared. Would anyone say that within a month our staff and departmental arrangements could be put in all respects upon such a footing as it would be necessary to guarantee in case of war? It was on these grounds he asked for—
  "A Royal Commission to inquire into and report upon our Military Organization, in so far as it relates to the establishment of a sufficient and economical Army of Reserve, and the means it offers of a speedy and efficient expansion to meet the requirements of war, more especially for home defence."
  He wanted to know whether it was the opinion of his right hon. Friend that our present system offered the means of such an expansion. He (Lord Elcho) did not believe any answer on this subject could be satisfactory which was not preceded by a searching inquiry. But to return to the question of the men. He confessed himself he did not trust our system of recruiting which was at present in force; still less did he trust to our Reserve system. He asked whether this latter system worked as well as the House would wish—as they would all wish? He was inclined to think that a good deal more was required. Now, he distrusted our system of recruiting, because he did not think it would bear the strain of the requirements which war would bring. What had occurred when the Crimean War broke out? We were then 27,000,000 or 28,000,000
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  of people. Our present system of recruiting was in force; and yet the Secretary of State for War was obliged to come down to the House of Commons with what he called a "Foreign Enlistment Bill." We, with our 28,000,000 of people were so remarkably organized, or rather disorganized, that we had to go to the people of other countries and ask them to fight cur battles. Parliament felt then as it felt now that such a thing was not creditable to this country. What was the result of that Bill? Two foreign legions were proposed. One, the Italian, failed; the other, the German, made very excellent soldiers. We were at that time obliged to ask the Militia regiments for extraordinary service. A Militia regiment—that commanded by the right hon. and gallant Gentlemen the Member for North Lancashire (Colonel Wilson-Patten)—did duty in Malta and Gibraltar.; More than that, we had to avail ourselves of the services of a regiment from one of the colonies; and Lord Hardinge, though most unwillingly, allowed Colonel Somerset who had sold out to come in again because he brought with him three regiments. But let the House look at what was the state of our army at the close of the Crimean War, notwithstanding all those adventitious aids. On the 1st of April, 1856, the numbers stood thus—voted, 219,308; serving, 180,464; deficiency, 38,844. He would now call attention to our systems of organization. When we were at war abroad he believed that England had never brought more than 45,000 men in line; and we had from the Commission on Recruiting the belief expressed that the utmost possible force of regular troops we could have in line at home was 40,000. Compare that with the state of things in the time of Elizabeth. At that period, with a population of 3,000,000, no fewer than 177,000 men could have been put in the field, all thoroughly organized, and with so complete a transport that they carried even the necessary horseshoes and nails. Our system of recruiting which had failed in war had failed in peace also; because the Royal Commission appointed on this subject a year or two ago made sundry re-comendations, which resulted in the scheme of his right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Huntingdon (General Peel), by which an increase of 2d. a day was given to both the army and the Militia. Concurrently with that increase there had been an increase in the recruiting for the army and the Militia. [Sir JOHN PAKINGTON:

  1949
  Hear!] His right hon. Friend cheered him; but he did not think he could be prepared to assert that the whole of that good result was due to the Government. Unquestionably the increase of pay had had its effect; but concurrently with the increase in recruiting there had been a period of distress and stagnation of trade. The class from which recruits came was affected by that state of circumstances, and, therefore, one could not say how much of the increase in the recruiting was due to the increase of 2d. in the pay, and how much to the stagnation in trade. His right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Huntingdon before he left Office proposed what he called a scheme of Army Reserve, and that proposal was being carried out by his successor in Office, the present Secretary of State for War. He observed that the right hon. and gallant General (General Peel) shook his head; and no doubt he would be able to show in what respects his scheme was not being carried out. The impression entertained by himself and others was, however, that the present Secretary for War was endeavouring to give effect to the plan of his right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Huntingdon. He was not going to enter into details on this subject; but he believed he was correct in stating that the intention of his right hon. and gallant Friend was to have in reserve 50,000 men, who, in case of emergency, should be at the disposal of the Commander-in-Chief. His right hon. and gallant Friend did not, perhaps, think that a sufficient Army of Reserve; but when he entered Office he found none at all, because the system of Reserve attempted by Lord Herbert had proved a signal failure. The Army of Reserve under that system had become a standing joke. But how, at the present moment, stood our Army of Reserve, which was to have amounted to 50,000? It consisted of two branches—of men who had retired from the army without having completed their full term of service and of men who had served in the Militia. At the present moment we had of the former 2,900 and of the latter 2,006, giving a total of 4,906 for our whole Army of Reserve. He thought it very questionable whether this system of a Militia Army of Reserve would work as well as they all wished it might work. The Militia Army of Reserve depended entirely on the feeling with regard to it existing in the Militia, He had been told on the previous day by a Militia officer the impression abroad was
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  that in bringing this Motion before the House he wished to set aside the Militia and to bring the Volunteers more prominently forward. He presumed, therefore, that such an impression existed somewhere, but he must say for himself that he regarded the Militia as the backbone of our military system. He thought that every effort ought to be made to strengthen the Militia and bind it up with the army and the Volunteers. But, unquestionably there did exist on the part of the Militia a feeling that of late years the public laid less I stress on the value of their assistance, and that they received less consideration than they deserved. As one of the public he must say he did not believe that to be the case. The difference of feeling arose from this, that the Militia were drilled at Aldershot or in the country away from London and other large towns, and did not therefore appear so prominently before the public, and that consequently they could not draw a comparison of the nature of their services as they could if they were brought: together in large bodies like the Volunteers, who were collected in large towns, and who came prominently before the public. So far, therefore, as the Militia were concerned they were under a false impression with reference to the opinion of the public. He spoke not as a Volunteer, but as one of. The public, when he said that the Militia were the backbone of our military system. ["Hear!"] The cheers of hon. Members indicated that such was the feeling of the House of Commons. The Militia officer to whom he had just alluded, and who had been introduced to him as a gentleman who had given great attention to the question, assured him as the result of communications with his brother officers that the Militia Reserve system was not looked upon favourably by Militia officers. It appeared that out of three regiments of Militia which had just completed their drill—the 1st Surrey, the Oxfordshire, and the Hampshire—only eight men offered themselves for the Army of Reserve. These belonged to the 1st Surrey, and only three of them were attested. The Oxfordshire regiment did not produce a single recruit, neither did the Hampshire; and the reason assigned for this remarkable circumstance was that the men did not like to serve without their officers; the men asked were their officers going too, and when they found such was not the case, they determined to stop where they

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  were. In the course of conversation the other day respecting the present Motion, Lord Norreys, who commanded a Berkshire battalion, expressed an opinion that this Act would not work, and, having been requested to do so, put his views upon paper in the following shape:—
  "I do not think the Militia has prestige enough to attract desirable men as officers. I also think that the Army Reserve Act will increase the difficulty of getting subalterns; as it is most unpopular among the officers, who feel slighted at being required to command men liable for active service themselves, and not being allowed to accompany them. I consider that it has increased the feeling among them that they are but drill sergeants for the army. To improve the efficiency of the force I think it will be necessary to give it prestige; and, believing as I do that but few men will be induced to join the Army Reserve individually—though if asked by regiments to volunteer on the same terms to serve with their officers they would do so—I would suggest that instead of asking a percentage of men of each regiment to volunteer on these terms, the same percentage of regiments selected from those most efficient should be asked to volunteer on the same terms, to serve under their officers with the regular army in case of war; that these regiments should be very strictly inspected every year; that all members of the permanent staff not thoroughly efficient be draughted; that all officers be required to satisfy the inspecting officer of their thorough knowledge of their duties; and that their annual period of training be extended to fifty-six days, it being clearly understood that no Militia officer serving in the field has any claim to any army appointment when his regiment returns to a disembodied state. An esprit de corps would in my opinion be thus established that would attract desirable men as officers to the Militia, and give the force a prestige it has not got. I fear that if many men were to join the Army Reserve on the terms now offered many of the best officers and those taking the greatest pains with and interest in their companies will leave the Militia, and I am sure that it will be impossible, by increasing the pay of Militia officers, to replace the gentlemen of the respective counties, who are invariably the best officers, and who work very hard not for the pay, but for the interest of their regiments. Little is known to those who have not experienced it of the drudgery that company officers of Militia regiments go through, and of the personal attention they give to every detail affecting their men, and there is no denying that they have not sufficient encouragement."
  A gentleman, with means of knowledge, to whom he read this letter yesterday said that, as far as he knew, it expressed the opinions of the Militia officers. The system here proposed, if adopted, would not only make the Militia feeders, but actually second battalions of the regular army. He asked this same gentleman whether there was any other plan which suggested itself to his mind for giving prestige and efficiency to the Militia; and he replied that
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  what was wanted was some sufficient inducement to the officers to work hard and I learn their duty. There was no reason, for instance, why honorary army rank should not be given to all Militia officers who would undertake to attach themselves to a regiment of the Line for three months, and obtain a certificate of competency, which rank they should be allowed to retain on retiring after ten years' service. This honorary rank, while it would not derogate in any way from the status of the Regulars, would materially enhance the position of Militia officers in their own estimation. Upon the whole, therefore, looking at the question as it affected the army, at the present number of departures and re-enlistments, and at the poor state of the existing Reserve there was abundant ground, he contended, for the issue of a Commission. But, again, there was another branch of the service—the Volunteers. Upon the Volunteer Vote it had been his duty to call the attention of the Secretary of State for War to the fact that committees of officers representing the force from all parts of the kingdom had come to the conclusion that the Parliamentary Capitation Grant was insufficient to keep up the force at its present strength. His right hon. Friend, in reply, said he had consulted other officers, who seemed to be of a different opinion, and the hon. Member for Devonshire expressed his opinion that he thought it sufficient. But surely where so strong an opinion was entertained and expressed upon one side and on the other, it would not be prudent to risk the falling away of so valuable a force merely for want of inquiring which opinion was right and which was wrong. The precedent of an inquiry was set in 1863, and there had been something like a pledge that the matter should be further investigated. Last year he had put before the House his view that the only sure foundation for the Militia was to rest it upon the ancient usage of the country—namely, liability to service for home defence, and, if such a Commission as he recommended were appointed, that question, he hoped, would not fail to receive attention. But he did not ask the House to go into that matter now. He had, in fact, to offer his apologies for the length to which his remarks had extended. But, believing that our military organization was not in a satisfactory state, either as regarded its present condition or its power of expansion in case of need, he felt com-

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  pelled to bring the subject before the House. He asked for inquiry, because inquiry ought to precede and would be necessary to justify the action, which eventually might have to be taken upon this head. In the opinion of many who had studied the subject such inquiry was wanted, and, if granted, would meet with the sanction and approval of the country. There was a very strong and a growing-feeling that, for the enormous expenditure of £15,000,000 annually, we had not our money's worth. Could it be alleged that inquiries such as he proposed were uncommon in this country? Why, in the debate in the French Chambers, M. Thiers, speaking upon the Army Bill, said—
  "Why do you bring in the Bill at once? Why do you not, preparatory to legislating on this question, institute one of those grand inquiries which they issue in England under similar circumstances?"
  He hoped the Secretary of State would recommend Her Majesty to issue one of these "grand inquiries;" and, in any event, that the right hon. Gentleman would not pledge the Government against a further consideration of the matter, but would keep in his own hands, at least while he retained Office, the power of issuing such a Commission. The time for inquiry was singularly favourable. The Government could not take action practically in the matter, for they could not elaborate any scheme with the certainty of being able to lay it themselves before the next Parliament; and if a change of Government followed the dissolution time must be lost before the new Minister for War could settle into his place. His object therefore in the present Motion was that the interval preceding the assembling for business purposes of the new Parliament should be occupied in an inquiry conducted by able and independent men, so that time which would otherwise be lost might be turned to account, and valuable information collected and planed at the disposal of whoever might be the Secretary for War. Time pressed; while England considered what was to be done other countries were at work. He therefore hoped his right hon. Friend would recommend Her Majesty to appoint the Commission he asked for, on the principle that the machine of war was made effective only by careful preparation in time of peace. It was not by resting satisfied with a system of recruiting which the Commission described as "a hand to
  1954
  mouth policy" that Prussia paved the way to Sadona, or that France was preparing for second Jena.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to appoint a Royal Commission to inquire into and report upon our Military Organisation, in so far as it relates to the establishment of a sufficient and economical Army of Reserve, and the means it offers of speedy and efficient expansion to meet the requirements of war, more especially for home defence."—(Lord Elcho.)
  GENERAL PEELsaid, no more important question could be introduced to the House than that brought forward in the very able speech of his noble Friend. He quite I agreed that no time could be more appropriate than the present for the consideration of the matter; because we were not suffering from one of those hot or cold fits which generally regulated our military operations—now through panic, driving the country into extravagances, and then, from a false feeling of security, leading to the neglect of the commonest measures of defence. Now was the time to consider the whole question dispassionately, because the present policy of the Foreign Office—which he hoped would be the policy of the future—to a great extent secured us immunity from foreign quarrels. But when Continental Powers were arming themselves to the teeth the security arising from non-intervention was not to be trusted in alone. The question of an Army Reserve was referred to the Royal Commission of two years ago, which sat under circumstances much resembling those of to-day, for no immediate cause for action had then arisen. The Commissioners, reporting on that subject, said—
  "We find that it opens up a very large question, the decision of which rests rather with statesmen and Cabinets than with a Commission such as that of which we are members."
  That was his opinion also. He strongly deprecated the growing tendency to transfer responsibility from Ministers to Royal Commissions. The Report went on—
  "The military history of this country, even up to the date of the last great war in which we were engaged, shows that it has been our practice during periods of peace to reduce all our military establishments to the lowest possible point which the relief of our troops serving in the colonies would admit. Our arsenals were dismantled, and nothing but the most ordinary work performed in them. In fact, it may be said that we were content to exist from hand to mouth with no forecast of the future. No preparations for a state of

  1955
  war were thought of, and the consequence has been that when war occurred everything had to be done in a hurry at the most lavish expense. Men were enrolled and sent half-trained into the field, matériel manufactured, transport provided, and accommodation for the sick and wounded devised and organized. Hitherto we have had time, owing to the procrastinated character of war, to extricate ourselves from the consequences of our remissness, and by much expenditure and incredible exertion we have escaped its lamentable effects. Recent events however have taught us that we must not rely in future on having time for preparation. Wars will be sudden in their commencement and short in their duration, and woe to that country which is unprepared to defend itself against any contingency that may arise or combination that may be formed against it."
  Remarking that at present the army was barely sufficient for the protection of "our Indian territories and our extended colonial possessions," the Commissioners proceeded to say—
  "Under these circumstances we must look more to our army. We think its present strength is barely sufficient for a period of peace, and the question is how we can most readily and speedily increase it through the means of a Reserve force, consisting of men who have already received their training in its ranks, but may have fallen back into the ordinary duties and callings of civil life?"
  He was Secretary of State for War at the time that Report was presented. But previously his attention and that of his Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief had been called to the necessity of a Reserve, to raise the army from a state of peace to a state of war. They not only agreed to place their own views on paper, in order to be enabled to compare them, but they asked distinguished officers to send in their views of the Army of Reserve; and they found that the belief was general of the necessity of having a Reserve which would enable them to raise the army in time of peace to what was required of it in time of war. He could not place the case of our necessities better before the House than by reading an extract from a very admirable letter addressed to him by his Royal Highness on the subject, as follows:—
  "During peace it should be our object to keep up our cadres of regiments, battalions, and batteries, though the actual rank and file may be of diminished strength, provided we have the certainty that our organization is such that it is capable of easy and certain expansion. At present we have no such certainty; and, indeed, we may fairly say that our expansion means are nil. How, then, is this force to be created? I am anxious that we should have the means of bringing up every regiment, battalion, and battery to a war footing, by the formation of some Reserve force of 40,000 men. This would, as far as my estimate
  1956
  goes, give 1,000 men per battalion of infantry, 600 or 700 men for each regiment of cavalry, and an average of 270 men for each battery of artillery exclusive of those in India, leaving a further margin for the other accessories for an army to take the field. What we must endeavour to ascertain is how this force could be obtained at once and with the least amount of cost to the State."
  After suggesting several methods by which a Reserve force could be augmented by men discharged, or on furlough from the regular army, his Royal Highness went on to say—
  "These methods would not, however, at once give anything like the number of men required by my calculation, and I therefore think that, in the first instance, at least, a strong appeal ought to be made to the Militia, calling upon every regiment to give a quota of men according to their proportionate strength, who, while continuing to serve in the Militia during peace, are ready to join the army at once in war, not alone for the purpose of home defence, but also with a view to make up the strength of regiments, battalions, and batteries serving abroad."
  Without that Reserve he thought our military organization the worst in the world. He would never have consented to reduce establishments to the lowest figure without an Army Reserve enabling us at once to raise them to a war footing. Confining himself to the regiments of the Line, he found we had 141 battalions with establishments varying from 950 to 600, and our present effective strength amounted to about 109,990 men; 31,000 men would therefore be required to make up the strength of each battalion to 1,000. Of the 141 battalions 48 were at present in England, and of these the establishments of no less than 34 were reduced to 600, and consequently able to produce in the field only about 400 perfectly efficient men each. He had said our military organization was defective, and for this reason—In the Militia officers were scarce; in the Line they were superabundant. In the Militia establishments were, as a rule, much larger than those of the Line, and, of course, the great thing would be to have the power to transfer men from the Militia to the Line as necessity required it. In May last, seven regiments of Militia were quartered at Aldershot, and he found from a memorandum, kindly furnished him by Sir James Scarlett, that the field state when the seven regiments of Militia were on two days brigaded with seven regiments of the Line was in effect this—The seven regiments of Militia, on the 18th of May, had in the field 108

  1957
  officers and 4,022 men; on the 20th of May, they had 110 officers and 4,165 men; on the 18th, the seven regiments of the Line had 159 officers and 2,771 men; and on the 20th, 154 officers and 2,690 men. The average number of men to each Militia regiment would be 600, and they would have 16 officers, including the staff, while the regiments of the Line would, on the average, each consist of 400 men and 24 officers. What, therefore, they should endeavour to do was to obtain a transfer of men from the Militia to the Line. In the Line there was one officer to 17 men; whereas in the Militia, where neither officers nor men were in the state of efficiency of the men of the Line, there was one officer only to 37 men. Now, the plan which he proposed was, he must say, different in many respects from that which was now to be carried out. What he proposed was, that the first Army of Reserve should be attached to the Militia, whereas the; second Army of Reserve should be attached; to the Pensioners. He did not know whether his plan was the better of the two, but it certainly was simpler. He had implored the officers of the Militia to encourage the formation of this Army of Reserve. In taking men from the Militia to form; this Army of Reserve he had contemplated filling their places, but men had been enlisted before the transfer to the Army of Reserve had been effected. He did not wish by his plan to interfere with the men as long as they were with the Militia. What he wanted was to know they were there, and to be able to lay his hand on them whenever they might be required. But the new regulation was, that the men should be drilled fifty-six days in the year with regiments of the Line. The officers did not like that, and the men thought it; was an inducement for them to enlist in the army in time of peace. His object and intention had been to attach the first Reserve entirely to the Militia, and in the; body so created he believed we should have found a very valuable auxiliary force. He objected to the present plan on several grounds. Suppose a man had served in the first class Reserve during his first period of service, he had then a right to go into the second class of Reserve; but to be entitled to a pension he would he obliged to enlist during the second period for a term of twenty-two years. He could not help thinking that the Militia had been treated very unfairly in this matter. In the first place he objected to this Reserve being
  1958
  called a Militia Reserve. It was a Militia Army Reserve; and the men who withdrew from the Militia and entered the Reserve were entitled to the same advantages as those who entered the Reserve from the Line, inasmuch as both were subjected to the same liabilities. But this was not the ease, especially with regard to pension; and he could not help thinking that with the one class as with the other two years should be permitted to count as one. Those who entered from the Militia should, as well as those who entered from the Line, be exempted from service on juries, and the performance of duties of a similar character. He did not attribute the slightest blame to his right hon. Friend; but it certainly was unfortunate that these instructions should have been issued at a time when some of the Militia regiments had completed their training, and when the expiration of the training in other cases was close at hand. But the great question they had to consider was how to provide the Militia with officers. This could not be done unless some greater inducements than now existed were offered. He had before warned the House, and he now warned them again, not to allow the Army of Reserve to be attached to the Pensioners. If they did they would soon have applications made for an increase in the number of staff officers, and it would be better that the money required for that purpose should be expended in encouraging officers to join the Militia. If that were done it would not be difficult to induce them to join the Army of Reserve.
  GENERAL DUNNEcontended that it was fallacious to institute a comparison, as was often done, between the army of this country and those on the Continent. In France and in Prussia, for instance, every man was liable to serve; but the system in practice there could not be carried out here, because it was not popular. Recruits were now enlisted by the Pensioners, and at the head-quarters of the regiments, but a good deal of jealousy existed between the two, the Pensioners believing, and with some reason, that recruiting through them was not received with so much favour as recruiting at head-quarters. He believed that a much larger number of men would enlist from the Militia into the Army of Reserve if they knew that they were not liable to removal from the country except in time of war. During the last war they; had recruiting for the Line and for the; Militia going on at the same time; and

  1959
  now, while moving a large body from the Militia into the Line, they would have all the men who remained in the Militia besides. He therefore thought the plan would be largely successful. There ought to be some stronger inducement held out to officers to enter the Militia. Commissions might advantageously be given to subaltern officers in the Militia, as was done during the war. Such men would be worth a dozen of those who passed through some foolish competitive examination. There was, he believed, no difficulty as to captains and field officers. Compared with the staff at the end of the last war, the present staff of the British Army was larger and was much greater than was necessary. The Militia force in Ireland might be said not to exist. It had been the policy of the Government not to call it out for the last three years. The Irish Militia was on paper, and there was a Vote every year for the staff and the training; but at the end of every Session they were obliged to provide for the application of the sum so voted to some other purpose. They neither drilled the Irish Militia nor allowed them to recruit; but he believed many of them would be ready to accept the offer made by the gallant General (General Peel) when he was Secretary of State for War. Some means, ought, therefore, to be taken to recruit the Militia in Ireland. The noble Lord said they ought to transfer regiments from the Militia to the Line; but that was utterly impossible—it was absurd. They must proceed in another way—by offering inducements to the Militia. The noble Lord proposed a Commission; that, however, was not necessary on the score of information. Every military man knew perfectly well the state of the recruiting service, and that the Militia was not as efficient as it ought to be. The Volunteer force was a most useful one, and tended to keep up the military spirit in the country. But to put them on an equality with the Line was quite out of the question. He hoped the Volunteer movement would succeed; but to suppose that they would supply the army with recruits was chimerical.
  SIR HARRY VERNEYsaid, he was glad to observe the attention which the House was paying to this subject. He had listened with great pleasure to the speech of his right hon. and gallant Friend (General Peel), from which they had gained so much information. The question was how they would stand if
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  they were suddenly engaged in war. Suppose three of the great military Powers combined against England, and several attacks were made on different parts of the coast at once. Suppose some 25,000 men landed, what infinite mischief would they do in a short time. To furnish an army capable of resisting such attacks, he recommended that a few regiments should be embodied for short service. They would get a very superior class of men, who might be drilled and become perfectly good soldiers in four or five years. A large body of these would pass through the army rapidly, and they would naturally be the Army of Reserve. There was a spirit of adventure in the English people which, if properly directed, would make us one of the first military countries in the world. A great deal of good might also be effected by having the youth of the country properly drilled at school. In the short service regiments which he had suggested, men should not be allowed to remain for a longer period than was necessary to perfect them in drill and to make them good soldiers.
  COLONEL, WILSON PATTENsaid, it had been suggested that there was some reluctance on the part of Militia officers to allow their men to enter the Army of Reserve; but he thought that was a mistaken supposition, because there was a general feeling among those officers that it was their first duty to do all they could to induce their men to join that force. When his own regiment a few days ago was asked to join the Army of Reserve, 149 men stepped out of the ranks at once to signify their willingness to do so, and he had no doubt that a great many more were also prepared to join. The fact that 2,000 of the Militia had joined the Army of Reserve within a week showed, as he believed, that the movement, instead of being a failure, was a great success; and he thought that by the means which had been adopted a most efficient Army of Reserve would be formed.
  MR. HAYTERsaid, there could be no doubt that we stood in need of an efficient Army of Reserve. The recruiting, however, for the regular army had been most successful of late years, seeing that the deficiency of 5,000 in the force in 1865 had been reduced to 900 in the present year. The question of an Army of Reserve was one not of military, but of Imperial policy, and together with the question of our colonial policy, it should be con-

  1961
  sidered by Parliament itself rather than; by a Military Commission. It was impossible that we could go on providing 50,000 men for our colonies besides our Indian force. He was glad to hear that the last regiment was about to be withdrawn from New Zealand, and that Sir Henry Storks had expressed an opinion that the troops might be withdrawn from the Cape. The amount of men we kept in Canada was simply an object of attack for the United States. In the event of a change in our colonial military system being adopted the question of the Army of Reserve would be placed upon an entirely new footing, because the men for the regular army might then be enlisted for five years only, and might then pass into the Army of Reserve. He was thankful to the right hon. and gallant General (General Peel) for his expressions of opinion; and the House and the country would be obligedto the noble Lord (Lord Elcho) for introducing the subject.
  MR. BATHURSTsaid, he objected to the period of the annual service of the Militia being extended from one month to two months. It was difficult to find men of position and means who would sacrifice even one month to hard work and it would be impossible to induce them to sacrifice two months for that purpose.
  MAJOR JERVISsaid, that the whole of the Reserved force had been placed under the command of one general officer but unfortunately that officer found himself in this position, that the troops he had to command were also under the command of every Lord Lieutenant, of every county, in the country. It was impossible that one man should be able to command the Militia, the Yeomanry, the Volunteers, and what was more especially called the Army of Reserve, while he found himself so hampered in his command. Let them take, as an illustration, what had occurred at Windsor the other day. Some 25,000 Volunteers had to be brought to Windsor, and they were supposed to be under the control of the officer who had the command of the Reserve forces. But that officer had no more to do with them than he (Major Jervis) had. When general of fleers went down to take the command of brigades and divisions they did not know what to do, and 25,000 men had been brought together without the slightest attention being paid to the commissariat for the time being. Did they call that placing an officer in command of the re-
  1962
  serve forces of the kingdom? Until they gave the officer in command the full authority to which he was entitled it was idle to talk of having appointed a general officer to take charge of the Reserve. The Reserve forces might be divided into two bodies—the one whose duty it would be to fill up the gaps in the service in the time of foreign war, the other to act in case of invasion. The two things were totally distinct. For the first duty they must have men ready to go to any part of the globe; but until they paid them as much as they would earn in any other calling it was idle to talk of having such men at all. It was a mere question of wages. Then, with regard to the other portion of the reserves, there must be a proper organization of the Militia, the Yeomanry, and the Volunteers. When a regiment had a first-rate colonel they would follow him anywhere; but when the men did not like their officers they would not follow. Consequently, if a war broke out there would be a force which, when wanted, they would not have at command. Now, he wished the Secretary of State to look the matter full in the face, and to consider how he could get the Militia, Yeomanry, and Volunteers—which, if officered properly, would be one of the finest armies in the world—properly organized, for last Saturday had proved that at present the Volunteers were little better than an undisciplined rabble. Until they put the officer in command of the Reserve forces in the position which he ought to hold, they were only misleading the country by saying that they had a Reserve upon which they could rely.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he quite agreed with those Gentlemen who had recognized the great importance of the subject which his noble Friend had brought before the House, and he admitted that his noble Friend, entertaining the views which he did, was entitled to great credit for the steps he had taken, and the able statement he had laid before the House. But, though the Notice of his noble Friend referred entirely to the formation of an Army of Reserve, he had entered into statements with regard to the cost of the British Army which it was impossible to pass over without notice. It was much to be lamented that—inadvertently he was sure, on the part of his noble Friend, but constantly on the part of speakers in that House and writers in the; public Press—the cost of the British Army

  1963
  was stated to be upwards of £15,000,000. Now, that was not true; and it was most undesirable that exaggerated statements of that kind should become current in the country. His noble Friend had begun his speech with the broad statement that £15,000,000 was the cost of the British Army, and had concluded with the same statement. It was true that in the intervening portions of his speech his noble Friend, in deference to some disclaimers on his part, had alluded to certain deductions from that expenditure; but it was so important that no delusion should prevail on that subject that he hoped the House would allow him to state what the figures really were. No doubt, the gross amount in the first column of the Estimates was £15,400,000, but from that they must deduct, not merely £500,000 for re-payments into the Exchequer, but £1,568,000 hard cash which went to defray the expenses of the army. Then came upwards of £2,087,000 for the cost of the non-Effective force. Then there were large deductions on account of what the War Office did for the navy in various ways, the result being that from the total of £15,400,000 they must begin by deducting upwards of £4,000,000. His noble Friend very properly deducted the cost of the Army Reserves, which was another £1,500,000; so that, in point of fact, the actual cost of the effective standing army to the British taxpayer, instead of being £15,400,000, was only £9,900,000. He had endeavoured, when moving the Estimates, to do away with any misapprehension which might have existed; but after what had passed that night he had thought proper to revert to the subject. He now came to the remaining part of the speech of his noble Friend, and he wanted to know what his noble Friend's real motive was? The House must have observed that the Motion brought forward by his noble Friend that night was entirely different from the Notice which he had given some months ago. His noble Friend then gave Notice that he would move for a Royal Commission to inquire into the state of our Reserve Forces. That Notice had stood for a considerable time on the Paper; but after the Easter holidays he renewed his Motion in an altered form. His noble Friend's first Notice was the same as that which he had brought forward that night, bat with this very important and significant addition—
  1964
  "And to consider, keeping these objects in view, whether it may be necessary or desirable to enforce the ballot for the Militia.; and if so, in what way this may be done so as to effect the desired end, and at the same time press most lightly on the country."
  Now, he could not help thinking that, although his noble Friend had suppressed that part of his original Notice, the real object he had in view was conscription in some shape or other. He could not resist the conviction that his noble Friend believed that our voluntary system was not sufficient for the defence of the country, and that something like a compulsory system was required. Now, he would ask his noble Friend and the House whether the present state of the defences of the country was such as to make it desirable to hold out to the public for a single moment, that the Government or the House of Commons were of opinion that the voluntary system had so far broken down that the defence of the country could not be maintained without having recourse to conscription? He believed such a course to be wholly unnecessary and uncalled for, and that the history of the country and the spirit of the people had proved it to be so. If ever there was a moment when it was eminently unnecessary, eminently uncalled for, eminently impolitic to make the public mind entertain such an idea, it was the present, when it was impossible to deny the fact, whatever the reason might be, that the voluntary system was more successful than it had ever been before. He doubted whether our regular forces and Reserves had ever been more efficient or the ranks better filled than they now were under the voluntary system. His noble Friend had dwelt long upon the Prussian system, and asked whether we were in as good a position as Prussia was. Did he think it desirable that we should adopt the Prussian system? For military purposes that system was no doubt most effective; and no army in Europe was more perfect than that of Prussia. But every citizen there was bound to devote a portion of his life to service as a soldier. The Prussian people were accustomed to that system; but what would be said of any Government or Parliament in this country which tried to introduce it? Then look at the position of Prussia, surrounded by three of the greatest military Powers in the world—France, Austria, and Russia, while she herself was a great nation, anxious to maintain her position and conscious that

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  she could do so only by means of a powerful army. Was Prussia an example to England in this particular? In his opinion, there was nothing which rendered it desirable to assimilate our system to that of Prussia. He quite agreed with the right hon. and gallant Gentleman (General Peel) that the state of Europe at this moment, and for some few years past, had been such as to make it desirable that the English Government should take all reasonable precautions to insure this country against the possible contingencies of war. On the other hand, England had no aggressive policy; her sole object was to preserve her independence. Our position with regard to Reserve forces was this—First, we had that noble Volunteer force, in the formation of which no one had taken a more distinguished part than his noble Friend. He had heard with regard to the Volunteers the remarks, not complimentary, but frank and straightforward, of his hon. and gallant Friend (Major Jervis). From all he had heard, with all his admiration for the Volunteer force, he believed that the occurrences of Saturday showed that that force had not reached perfection in its discipline. Far be it from him to disparage the Volunteers; but it was clear that if they were to be again reviewed by Her Majesty, or brought together from any circumstances; in bodies of more than 20,000, they should be so trained as to act with honour to themselves, and their conduct should be as creditable after the review as before. He understood his hon. and gallant Friend to say that they were left on Saturday without any commander. [Major JERVIS: I said without any commissariat.] As to commissariat, he believed the Volunteers; took pretty good care of their own; and as to the commander, the officer who was at the head of the Reserve forces considered himself responsible for bringing them on the ground, and there they were under the command of a general officer of great experience. At all events, before they were collected in such large bodies again, it would be desirable that some new arrangements should be made. However, it was a noble force; and when his noble Friend said in his Resolution that he wished to have an Army of Reserve, "and the means it offers of speedy and efficient expansion to meet the requirements of war, more especially for home defence," he would appeal to him, above all men, to say whether the whole history of this Volunteer,
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  force did not prove its power of expansion; and the military character of the English people? That great force was called into existence almost by magic. At the commencement of this century we had a Volunteer army of 500,000 men; and so now, if we were threatened by invasion, the Volunteer force, which was now something under 200,000, would soon increase to 500,000. We had got the nucleus, we had got regiments, we had got officers, and the force might be expanded to almost any extent which the necessities of the country required. With regard to the ballot, we did not want new laws on that subject. True, the ballot was suspended on account of the facility with which our ranks were filled. But if necessary Her Majesty had any day the power, by Order in Council, of putting the ballot in force again. It was therefore unnecessary to hare a Royal Commission or to institute any inquiry under the idea that compulsory service bad become necessary in this country. The next item in our Reserve was that fine old constitutional force, the Militia, which, he could not help thinking, did not always command the respect and good feeling to which it was entitled. In his opinion this House could do nothing wiser and more prudent, with a view to increase its means of defence, than give every possible support and encouragement to the Militia. The paucity of officers was, indeed, a subject of regret. Setting aside the Irish Militia, there should be in England 3,053 Militia officers, and in Scotland 432. In 1867 there were present—in England, 1,625 officers, in Scotland 234; altogether 1,859; and there were absent 263. Thus there were shown to be 1,363 vacancies in the officers of the Militia force. These vacancies seriously impaired the efficiency of the force; and he was most anxious to take any course which could be suggested with a view to increase the number of officers. No doubt the majority of these vacancies were in. the lower ranks; but still the efficiency of this fine force suffered materially. The Militia in training last year numbered 64,219 compared with 70,913 this year. The quota having been reduced, it had been necessary to make up the reduced quota before attempting to make up the full quota; only 20,000 men wore wanted to make up the full quota of the English and Scotch Militia; recruiting proceeded satisfactorily, 7,000 men having been enlisted last year; and so ready were the

  1967
  peasants of the country to enlist that he had every hope that within a comparatively short space of time the full strength of the Militia would be arrived at. Taking the number at 70,000 for England and Scotland, or 20,000 below what it ought to be, and at 20,000 for Ireland, or 10,000 below what it ought to be, reckoning 14,000 Pensioners and 16,185 Yeomanry and Cavalry, and putting down Mr. Sidney Herbert's Army of Reserve at 3,000, our actual Reserve force amounted to 311,000, without any of those additions that would result from the plan of the right hon. and gallant Member (General Peel). It would not answer any practical purpose to enter into a controversy respecting the regulations, for if there was any difference between those of the right hon. and gallant General and those he had issued, it was rather the result of misunderstanding than of intentional divergence; and it was quite premature on the part of his noble Friend to suggest that the plan had failed, for, as far as he was able to judge, it was successful. He admitted that the regulations were promulgated later than he could have desired, the delay being occasioned by the fortunate transfer of the command of the Reserve force to General Lindsay, whose opinion he wished to have; and it was owing to this circumstance that the regulations were not issued until, in some cases, the period of training was drawing to a close. The number enrolled as yet might be small; but he was confident that in the future they might expect to enrol the proportion of one-fourth contemplated by the right hon. and gallant General. In speaking of the first class of the Army Reserve he imagined his noble Friend meant those who had the option of commuting their service on joining the Reserve. The regulations were being promulgated, and he should be glad if that portion of the plan contributed any large number to the Reserved force, but he was not sanguine it would do so. With regard to the second class, those who joined the Reserve under certain conditions after the first period of their service—he had heard of a considerable number doing so already, and he was sanguine that from that source the Reserve force would receive great accessions of strength. Under these circumstances, and after these explanations, he had to ask the House whether his noble Friend had made out a case for a Royal Commission? The ulterior object seemed to be to persuade the country of
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  the necessity for something like conscription, but that was wholly uncalled for; for the ranks of the Militia and of the regular army were readily recruited by the voluntary system, which it was hoped would be rendered still more efficient by measures recently adopted. As there was fair and reasonable hope that the strength of the army would be maintained, and that of the Militia made up, there was no necessity for further inquiry of the nature proposed, and if the noble Lord divided the House, he should be obliged to oppose the Motion.
  COLONEL NORTH, as an old soldier, thought the remarks that had been made with reference to the events of Saturday last pressed rather hardly on the Volunteer force. He saw battalion after battalion move off the field in a manner that would have done credit to a disciplined force, although many of the men left home at two or three o'clock in the morning, and had been under arms four or five hours in a burning sun; and it would probably be found that the irregularities were caused by small corps that were not attached to battalions, or were not under proper command. He thought a plan might be adopted to bring together all these corps that were either in themselves small or were under officers who had had no experience: and he was sure they would do better, with more practice, under the command of General Lindsay, animated as they were by the desire to discharge their duty; but you could not make a soldier in a day. He must say it excited his own admiration on Saturday to see the manner in which battalion after battalion left the field.
  MR. ACLANDsaid, he desired to confirm what had just fallen from the hon. and gallant Member (Colonel North). He had heard the strongest opinions expressed in reference to the disaster of Saturday last by Volunteer officers, and he had been requested to express on their behalf the most earnest desire that the matter should be seriously investigated. It might, perhaps, turn out that the report—which was only a report as yet—was true, that the disaster—for he could call it nothing else—was wholly occasioned by the fact that some of the Volunteer officers did not remain with their men, and left them to find their way to the station as they could. He had more than once seen bodies of 2,000 or 3,000 Volunteers maintain a perfect discipline under circumstances of great trial, when the officers remained at their post; and he believed that the private

  1969
  habits of the great majority of the men were such that, if properly commanded, they would endure great privations rather; than disgrace themselves and their uniform. He hoped the matter would be investigated and the facts ascertained. As a Volunteer, he was anxious that the truth should be stated with reference to the Volunteers; but he did not think it was necessary to call them "an undisciplined rabble," unless it was clear that they deserved such an appellation. The Volunteers were perfectly willing to be taught by military men; but there was not the slightest use in having them lectured by the men whose service had consisted in marching round barrack yards and seeing rations served out three times a day. Volunteers were merely civilians, and they knew it; but if the military authorities wished to make them efficient as Volunteers, that was not to be done by putting them through the goose step and things of that sort. Neither Volunteers nor Militiamen could be expected to do what was accomplished by men who were at drill 365 days in the year. Again, there was no use in having the Volunteers disciplined by worn-out soldiers. Young military officers, with a career before them, ought to be sent to instruct the Volunteers. As for the review of Saturday, he did not see why the noble Lord (Lord Elcho) and the men whom he commanded should have been kept in a meadow for three hours. Who had organized that review? The Volunteers had gone down to do honour to their Queen; and it was not very surprising that after nearly twenty-four hours of hunger and thirst some of them should have run after a little water. With regard to another branch of the Question before the House, he thought the heads of the army ought to consider whether it might not be well to adopt the Continental system of gentlemen cadets in the case of young gentlemen who could not go on at Chelsea.
  COLONEL WILLIAMSwas understood to ask whether the Militia was up to the number stated in the reduced Vote?
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONreplied to the hon. and gallant Member for Great Marlow (Colonel 'Williams) in the affirmative.
  MR. LIDDELL,as a member of a country corps of Volunteers, wished to express an opinion that a lesson might be learnt from the occurrence of Saturday. That occurrence was attributable to the fault of
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  the officers. It also proved that the men attended to their officers in matters of discipline, and were prepared to do what their officers told them. This country had got a magnificent force of Volunteers, for which we were grateful; but there was still a great defect in the Volunteer organization. He believed that would not be remedied till in that House or elsewhere persons spoke out distinctly on the subject. The Volunteer force was not sufficiently officered. Any number of men were got to come forward and serve in the ranks; but there was not a sufficient number of men of education found to come forward and officer the corps. That was the difficulty under which the Volunteers laboured. He extremely regretted the disaster—he would add national disgrace—["No, no!"]—of what occurred last Saturday. It was to a certain extent a disgrace. He repeated that it was all owing to the want of officers who had the respect of their corps, and he hoped that what had happened would induce the gentlemen of England to come forward and take the command of this noble body of men.
  COLONEL FANEfully concurred in what had been said as to the necessity of holding out additional inducements to the officers of the Militia and Volunteers. He had the honour to command a regiment of Militia, and it went through its period of training not less creditably than other corps; but he had not one single officer whom he could rely upon to perform, such a needful operation as paying a company. Unless something were done in the, direction indicated by the Motion of the noble Lord, the day would come when the commanding officer, the major, and the adjutant would be the only persons left to represent a regiment of Militia.
  LORD ELCHOsaid, he would avail himself of the privilege of a reply which the courtesy of the House conferred to refer to one or two points alluded to in the debate. It was with a good deal of pain and surprise that he heard what occurred on Saturday night described by the hon. Member, who defended the Volunteers, as a "great disaster," and by another hon. Member as a national disgrace. "Now, it only showed, when a hare was once started, how apt men were to run riot after it. He absolutely and entirely denied that what occurred on Saturday night could be, or ought to be, so characterized. He would assume that what had been said about an "undisciplined rabble" applied

  1971
  to the whole of the force at Windsor. That consisted of 26,000 men. The total Volunteer force amounted to over 150,000. Were they going to tar them all with the same brush for the misdeeds of only a portion? But was the misconduct general? Since the debate began he asked a gallant Colonel of Volunteers, the hon. Member for Abingdon (Colonel Lindsay), "What station did you go by?" "Windsor," was his reply. "Did you see anything wrong—any signs of insubordination?" "No," said the hon. and gallant Gentleman, "every man was out of the station by eleven o'clock." It was his misfortune to travel—not by the Great Western—to leave London last and to come back last. He went to Datchet station, and the South-Western exactly took two hours and twenty minutes to convey him there from Waterloo. After the review was over, they were inspected, and left the ground about nine o'clock, arriving within a certain distance of the bridge at ten. There he found a scene of the greatest confusion, and there the regiment which he commanded was kept from ten till two o'clock, when it was at length embarked in the railway, and arrived in London at, he thought, a quarter-past four. He could only speak as to what he saw. He saw more than one regiment standing there in perfect formation, and behaving with perfect order and discipline—very far, indeed, from being an "undisciplined rabble." Injustice to his own men he ought to state that not a single man left the ranks on that occasion; they stayed there patiently from ten o'clock till two in the morning. Undoubtedly there were a certain number of men who had left their ranks—stragglers from different corps. But what was the cause of that? He did not attribute it to the men, but to the fact that a certain number of the officers were not with their regiments. That was the point. But though there was a failure here, the other station, as he had shown, was cleared at an early hour; and of those at Datchet a very large portion maintained their ranks unbroken, and kept perfect discipline. Therefore, he repudiated on the part of the Volunteer force, and he hoped the country would accept that repudiation as the truth, the idea that what occurred at Datchet pontoon bridge showed that they were an "undisciplined rabble," and not to be trusted. But what was it caused this jamb at the bridge? He had told them that he him-
  1972
  self took two hours and twenty minutes to come twenty miles by the South-Western. The Volunteers had nothing to do with the arrangements for conveyance either to Windsor or back. They were entirely, he believed, organized by the War Office and the railway company. [" No!"] Well, he believed, the General who commanded the Reserve was under the War Office, and it was entirely to that Department that the control belonged. The Horse Guards had nothing to do with it; they commanded while the force was in the field, but their command ceased as soon as the review was at an end. The trains came up promiscuously to take away the Volunteers, and it was not known till the train came in whether it was one to take up men for St. Helen's near Liverpool, for Dover—for there was a Dover corps there—or one of the metropolitan regiments. He was confirmed in that statement by the orders which came across the bridge. "What is wanted?" "A metropolitan corps," and a metropolitan corps was accordingly marched across. But it sometimes happened that a mistake occurred—that a St. Helen's corps got into a metropolitan train, or vice versâ, with, this additional element of confusion thrown in, that stragglers from other regiments who had left their ranks from the cause which he had stated, and other stragglers who were ferried across by boats plying for hire upon the river, also got into the trains and had to be turned out. And then the delay was very naturally caused, which led to some corps being delayed upon the bank till the advanced hour that he had already mentioned. But, he again said, do not let the House or the public run away with the idea that the whole Volunteer force was to blame, or that it behaved as an undisciplined rabble. Such misconduct as there might have been affected only a small portion of that portion of the force which was at Windsor upon Saturday last. He could point to the services of the last nine years, to meetings of 20,000 to 30,000 Volunteers, who had been conveyed to Portsmouth, to Dover, to Brighton, who had been gathered together at Edinburgh, and would be gathered again there on the 4th of next month—he could point to all those things to show that the Volunteer force was not undisciplined. He asked hon. and gallant Gentlemen connected with the regular service, if officers of the army who ought to be at their places did not remain there

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  would they maintain in the different regiments the perfect discipline which they now saw exhibited? The feeling of the Volunteer force was very strong upon the question, and it was their earnest desire and intention to bring home to those officers who neglected their duty upon that occasion the consequences of that neglect. The noble Lord expressed his perfect satisfaction with the tone of the debate, which had convinced him still more strongly of the absolute necessity, sooner or later, of an inquiry such as his Motion advocated. The late and the present Secretary for War both objected to the proposed Commission; but, their grounds for doing so formed in reality the strongest reasons in favour of that proposal. He did not shrink from the question of personal liability to service for home defence, and had freely expressed his opinion upon it, but it formed no part of his present proposals; it was not, however, as suggested, a Prussian or French theory, but one based upon our history in all former times, and expressly referred to in the Preamble of an Act passed in the reign of George III. Great; stress had been laid upon the numerical, strength of the different services at present. He admitted that they were well up to the mark. But army organization meant something more than the mere enrolment of a number of men, however large; it meant the same number of men worked up and banded together by proper and efficient military departments, and this it had been the object of his Motion; to insure. His conviction was that a satisfactory state of things could be brought; about by instituting a searching inquiry such as he had suggested; but, as the Secretary of State for War and his predecessor had both objected to the course' he proposed, he would not press for a division.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

KNIGHTS OF WINDSOR.

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  MR. BENTINCKsaid, he hoped the hon. and learned Baronet (Sir Colman O'Loghlen), whose Notice of Motion stood next on the Paper, would not proceed with it, as the House was anxious to go on with the more important Business of the evening.
  SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLENsaid, he was in the hands of the House, but he would undertake to be very short in what
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  he had to say. The Motion had been for some time on the Paper, and he regretted that the matter had not been settled by the Government after the correspondence that took place with regard to it last year, and the promise of the Secretary of the Admiralty that it should be seen to. He desired that an end should be put to the system under which Knights of Windsor not members of the Church of England were required to attend Divine service in St. George's Cathedral twice every day, It was very hard that a religious question should be mixed up with rewards to indigent officers who had seen distinguished service, and that men should be required to attend religious services to which they; conscientiously objected, and especially as under the regulations of the Queen's service no soldier was required to do so when military duty did not interfere. The Knights of Windsor were originally established by Edward III. with a view to; assist valiant but poor soldiers, and the duties imposed on them were to attend the service of God, to pray for the prosperity; of the Sovereign, and to attend high mass; but fifty years afterwards the canons of Windsor appropriated the money for their support to other purposes, and the Knights obtained no sort of redress until Henry VIII. ordered by his will that £600 a year be set apart for them; but, although he made the order, and required that masses should be said until the end of the world, His Majesty did not provide; for the payment of the £600 a year. The plan, however, was carried out by Edward VI. and Queen Elizabeth, Her Majesty made provision for thirteen Knights, and ordered that they should lose their place if they married. She also required them to attend daily service in St. George's; and generally her regulations remain in force to this day. The Naval Knights, provided for by the will of Samuel Travel's, were subject to the same rules; they were required to remain single, and to lead a virtuous, studious, devout life, and to be removed if they gave occasion for scandal. It happened that at present the Knights included one Roman Catholic, besides other Dissenters. The Roman Catholic Knight, however, was not particularly anxious to be relieved from attending the Church service, so it was not on his account that he introduced the matter; he asked for relief of all Dissenters on the general principle that considerations of religion should not enter

  1975
  into the granting of reward for distinguished services. Believing as he did that it was a hardship that Knights differing in their religious opinions from the doctrines of the Established Church should be called upon to perform these duties, he moved that an Address should be presented to Her Majesty praying that she would be graciously pleased to alter the regulations in this respect.
  MR. EYKYNseconded the Motion.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, humbly representing that, in the opinion of this House, it should not be obligatory on any Naval or Military Knight of Windsor, not being a member of the United Church of England and Ireland, to attend Divine Service in Saint George's Chapel, Windsor, daily or at all, and praying that Her Majesty may be graciously pleased to direct such alterations to be made in the Statutes regulating the Naval and Military Knights of Windsor as shall exempt from attending Divine Service in Saint George's Chapel, Windsor, all Naval and Military Knights of Windsor who shall not be members of the United Church of England and Ireland."—(Sir Colman O'Loghlen.)
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, he objected not only to Catholics but to Protestants being obliged to attend Divine service. These poor old gentlemen were many of them above seventy years of age, and they received some £40 and others £100 a year, and a small house in Windsor. They were obliged to attend Divine service twice every Sunday, and every third month to attend every day, unless they could obtain leave of absence. He could not think that there was any necessity for this. He should, of course, regret their not attending; but their attendance ought in no case to be compulsory. The Knights ought to be allowed, if they pleased, to attend the parish church or any other place of worship, an indulgence which was extended to Her Majesty's subjects at Windsor, though denied to these old and meritorious officers. He moved as an Amendment to leave out the words "not being a member of the United Church of England and Ireland."
  COLONEL FRENCHseconded the Amendment, and in doing so declared that he looked upon it, not as a religious, but as a physical question. It was really a very serious matter, and one that was very painful to many Knights who had received wounds in the service of their country, that they should be compelled to attend in a large hall, theoretically for the benefit of their souls, but in reality only to have
  1976
  their sufferings increased from the draughts which constantly existed. He looked upon the rule in that respect as a great hardship.
  Amendment proposed, to leave out the words "not being a member of the United Church of England and Ireland."—(Mr. Labouchere.)
  COLONEL NORTHcontended that no hardship really existed. He doubted whether the House of Commons could interfere with a Royal Charity. If the Motion were to be made at all it should be for an Address to the Crown. The Governor, in writing to him on the subject, stated that the Roman Catholic Knight to whom the hon. and learned Baronet had referred objected to any change being made in the present regulations, as did also the two Knights who were Dissenters. There was, moreover, no foundation for the statement that fines were ever inflicted. The desire for a change certainly did not emanate from the Knights themselves, and it should be remembered that these distinguished soldiers, though old, were by no means in every case infirm. One of these officers, in writing to him on the subject, attributed the Motion of the hon. and learned Baronet to the instigation of some "grumbling old Knight," and this writer denied, as did the Governor, the existence of any discontent or any practice of levying fines. Occasionally some of the Knights prayed by proxy; and those who performed this service for their comrades would, upon the authority of his correspondent, be happy to include the hon. and learned Baronet in their prayers if he would relieve them from the payment of the borough rates, from which they derived no advantage. He should oppose the Motion, no only because he believed that no grievance really existed, but because he deprecated Parliamentary interference in matters which, relating as they did to a Royal Charity, solely concerned Her Majesty.
  MR. GATHORNE HARDYtrusted the House would not accede to the Motion or to the Amendment, for these military Knights were, in fact, connected with the Order of the Garter, and, as the beadsmen in the case of the cathedrals, were in reality part of the religious body connected, with the Church. He had received letters from the governors of both the naval and military Knights, stating that nobody had objected to any of these duties.

  1977
  The Roman Catholic Knight who was appointed by the right hon. Member for Morpeth (Sir George Grey) acquiesced in the conditions, and entertained no objection to them; and the same was the case with a Knight who was a Presbyterian. Moreover, the Knights resided within the precincts of the Palace; and St. George's was not a public, but a Royal chapel. The Crown had a dispensing power with regard to these statutes, and he thought the House would feel that the adoption of this Motion would be to interfere unduly with the exercise of the rights of the Crown, especially as no grievance had been established, Hon. Members all knew how anxious the Queen was that no undue stress should be laid on any person's conscience; and if any necessity for an alteration of the statutes existed, the matter might safely be left to Her Majesty. As a proof of the connection of this body with the ecclesiastical establishment of St. George's Chapel, he might mention that one of the suspended canonries had been applied to in creasing the pay of the Knights; and that in 1861, on account of the canons having an undue share of the property, part of it was transferred to the Knights, owing, he believed, to the exertions of his hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel North). He trusted that under these circumstances the House would leave the question in the hands of the Crown.
  SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLENdeclined to withdraw the Motion. He accepted the Amendment of the hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. Labouchere) and disclaimed any intention of infringing the Queen's Prerogative, his Motion being simply for a humble Address to Her Majesty.
  Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and negatived.
  Another Amendment proposed, to leave out the words "who shall not be members of the United Church of England and Ireland."—(Mr. Labouchere.)
  Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and negatived.
  Main Question, as amended, put.
  The House divided:—Ayes 39; Noes 83: Majority 44.

ELECTRIC TELEGRAPHS BILL.
(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Stephen Cave, Mr. Sclater-Booth.)
ELECTRIC TELEGRAPHS BILL.

  [BILL 82.] SELECT COMMITTEE NOMINATED.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER moved to nominate the Select; Committee on the Electric Telegraphs Bill.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, he regretted the absence of his hon. Friend the Member for York (Mr. Leeman). There appeared to be no Member connected with the telegraph companies on the Committee, nor any one to watch over the public interest in regard to a free system of telegraphy. He should move some additional names to-morrow.
  Motion agreed to.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he rose to move the Instructions of which he had given Notice.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That it be an Instruction to the Select Committee on the Electric Telegraphs Bill to inquire,—

  "1. Whether it is desirable that the transmission of messages for the public should become a legal monopoly in the Post Office:

  "2. Whether it should be left to the discretion of the Postmaster General to make special agreements for the transmission of messages or news at reduced rates:

  "3. What securities should be taken for insuring the secrecy of messages transmitted through the Post Office:

  "4. What arrangements should be made for the working of submarine cables to foreign countries; and,

  "5. To hoar such Telegraph and Railway Companies and Proprietors as shall by petition, on or before the 26th instant, have prayed to be heard by themselves, their counsel or agent against such of the matters referred to the Committee as affect their particular interests?"—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)

  MR. BOUVERIEsaid, it was desirable that the functions of the Committee should not be so much narrowed; but that they should investigate whether the interests of the public would be subserved by the transfer of these telegraphs entirely to the public. That was a great question, and it was not one between the telegraph companies on the one hand, who did not wish to sell, and the Government on the other, who desired to acquire the telegraphs. A much larger question than that recognized by the Instructions had to be considered—whether it was expedient that this monopoly should be given to the Executive Go-

  1979
  vernment. It admitted of much being said on both sides; and although, it was assumed by the Government that but one answer could be given, there were different opinions, both in that House and out of it, and a wish for further information. The presumption in this country was in favour of private enterprize, and was not in favour of any undertakings in the nature of a Government monopoly. The onus probandi, as in other analogous cases, was upon those who maintained that the Government ought to have possession of this great system; and he doubted whether the Instructions were such as to enable the truth to be brought out in the fullest manner before the Committee. There was a great difficulty in getting out the truth before a Committee, unless there were hostile interests at work in the Committee, whose business it was to exert themselves to bring out the truth by conflict. If, on the other hand, the Committee were to be left to fish out the truth for themselves, they would be unable to get it. [" Divide."] He did not propose to divide the House, but the matter was most important, and one in which the public interests were deeply concerned. He should move, instead of limiting the powers of the Committee, as was done by the last clause, to leave out the words "such of the matters referred to the Committee as affect their particular interests," and insert the words "the Preamble and Clauses of the Bill." The effect would be that the parties interested in opposing the transfer would have liberty to state their objections at large to the transfer, and to bring up all the objections that might be entertained on the part of the public, as well as of those particular interests.
  Amendment proposed, in last paragraph,
  To leave out the words "such of the matters referred to the Committee as affect their particular interests," in order to insert the words "the Preamble and Clauses of the Bill,"—(Mr. Bouverie,)
  —instead thereof.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he hoped the House would not assent to this Amendment. The first four paragraphs provided for information on the part of the public into those matters which it was thought should be inquired into. He consented on the second reading to move the 5th Instruction, which was less restrictive than it originally stood. The words of this Instruction were in the hands of the opponents of the Bill the
  1980
  whole evening; and the hon. Member for York (Mr. Leeman), who moved the rejection of the Bill, was in consultation with and represented all the parties concerned. The Government were informed by the representatives of these parties that he was acting for them; and the Instruction received the fullest assent of the opponents of the Bill. He believed that the interests of the companies were fully protected, because they would be heard on all matters affecting them, and an inquiry into the general question of policy would be sufficiently provided by the first four paragraphs of the Instructions.
  MR. CHILDERSsaid, that the words of the 5th Instruction now proposed to be omitted were the subject of consultation, and were those in framing which the greatest care was taken. If the House were to appoint a Committee to inquire into a public question and were then to pay counsel to appear before the Committee, the whole of their legislation would soon become a matter for counsel to be heard on one side and on the other. The Members of the Select Committee were perfectly capable of dealing with the public interests without employing counsel to appear before them to get out the truth, although the latter should be heard on behalf of private interests.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, that the Committee would have power to consider the Preamble of the Bill, and that the Amendment of his right hon. Friend (Mr. Bouverie) would not be of advantage to the parties.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, as he understood the matter, the parties would be allowed to be heard against the Preamble of the Bill, using arguments with regard to their particular interests.
  MR. GOSCHENsaid, he concurred in what had fallen from the hon. and learned Member for Tower Hamlets.
  Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and agreed to.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.

MILITARY AT ELECTIONS (IRELAND) BILL— [BILL 95.]
(Mr. Serjeant Barry, Major Gavin, Mr. Esmonde.)
MILITARY AT ELECTIONS (IRELAND) BILL— [BILL 95.]

  SECOND READING. ADJOURNED DEBATE.
  Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed to Question [12th May], "That the Bill be now read a second time;" and which Amendment

  1981
  was, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."—(The Earl of Mayo.)
  Question again proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question,"
  Debate resumed.
  COLONEL STUART KNOXsaid, as that was a Bill for the promotion of anarchy and bloodshed in Ireland, he begged to move that that debate be adjourned till the 10th of August.
  THE EARL OF MAYOsuggested that an arrangement should be made as to the time which should be fixed for discussing the measure if it was to be proceeded with.
  MR. SYNAN, concurring with the remark of the noble Lord, moved that the debate should be adjourned till that day week.
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEsaid, he was quite of an opposite opinion to that of the hon. and gallant Member who said that was a Bill for the promotion of anarchy and bloodshed in Ireland. He thought that a change in the law on that subject was necessary, particularly as a General Election was approaching, and it was very desirable that they should have some convenient time fixed for the discussion of that measure. In his opinion the military had been too lightly used at elections in Ireland.
  MR. SERJEANT BARRYsaid, this Bill was on the Paper but twice before; and on one occasion, upon the suggestion of the noble Lord, it was postponed. On the last occasion it came on at one o'clock; and if, the debate having been adjourned, it came on so late as this, it was not his fault.
  COLONEL STUART KNOXsaid, he was surprised at the remark of the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Chichester Fortescue) that troops were never required at Irish elections; because, while the right hon. Gentleman was in Office the Government of which he had been a Member sent troops to every election in Ireland, even whether they were required or not.
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEexplained that he had not said that troops were never required, but that they ought not be be lightly used.
  THE EARL of MAYOsaid, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Chichester Fortescue) would specify any occasion on which the troops had been lightly used,
  1982
  because that had certainly not been done since he (the Earl of Mayo) had the holding the Office of Chief Secretary. The statement of the right hon. Gentleman that right astonished him excessively, because the course taken with regard to the military at the last General Election was this—On one day there were about 10,000 men—policemen and military—employed in keeping the peace at the General Election in Ireland, and he believed that the last Government followed in that respect the example set by former Governments, and supplied those troops on the requisition of the magistrates for the preservation of the public peace.
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEdisclaimed any idea of making special reference to anything that had occurred since the noble Earl had held Office, He had only spoken generally of the system; and if his noble Friend thought this system perfect, all he could say was that he did not agree with him.
  Debate adjourned further till Tuesday next.

ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES BILL— [BILL 37.]
(Mr. Mac Evoy, Sir Joseph M'Kenna, Mr. Leader,
ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES BILL— [BILL 37.]

  SECOND READING. ADJOURNED DEBATE.
  Order for resuming Adjourned Debate on Second Reading [16th June] read.
  MR. MAC EVOYsaid, that as the Government had refused to give him an opportunity for the discussion of this Bill, and as he saw no reasonable chance of bringing it on at a convenient time during the present Session, he felt bound to move that the Order for its second reading be discharged.
  Order discharged.
  Bill withdrawn.

  NEW ZEALAND (LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL) BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. ADDERLEY, Bill to make provision for the appointment of Members of the Legislative Council of New Zealand; and to remove doubts in respect of past appointments, ordered to be brought in by Mr. ADDERLEY and Mr. SCLATER-BOOTH.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 185.]

  PETIT JURIES (IRELAND) BILL.
  Select Committee on Petit Juries (Ireland) Bill nominated as follows:—Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND, Sir COLMAN O'LOGHLEN, Lord CLAUD J. HAMILTON, The O'CONOR DON, Sir FREDERICK

  1983
  HEYGATE, Mr. KAVANAGH, Mr. O'REILLY, Mr. GARTH, Mr. HUDDLESTON, Mr. PIM, Mr. MONSELL, Mr. COGAN, Mr. EDWARD COOPER, General DUNNE, and Mr. HEADLAM:—Five to be the quorum.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Two o'clock.