Commons Sitting of 7 July 1868

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Report—Special and Common Juries [No. 401.]
SUPPLY—considered in Committee—CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES—Class IV.
PUBLIC BILLS—Ordered—Trades Societies and Combinations of Workmen *; New Zealand Assembly's Powers; * Vaccination (Ireland) *; Tithe Commutation, &c. Acts Amendment. *
First Reading—New Zealand Assembly's Powers * [216]; Vaccination (Ireland) * [217]; Tithe Commutation, &c. Acts Amendment * [218]; Trades Societies and Combinations of Workmen * [219].
Report of Select Committee—Sale of Liquors on Sunday * [No. 402].
Committee—Public Schools (re-comm.) [135]; Lunatic Asylums (Ireland) Accounts Audit * [184]; Court of Session (Scotland) (re-comm.) * [173]; Larceny and Embezzlement * [157].
Report—Public Schools (re-comm.) [135]; Lunatic Asylums (Ireland) Accounts Audit * [184]; Court of Session (Scotland) (re-comm.) * [173–214]; Larceny and Embezzlement * [157; Sale of Liquors on Sunday * [12].
Considered as amended—Ecclesiastical Buildings and Globes (Scotland) * [150]; Court of Justiciary (Scotland) * [174].
Third Reading—Assignees of Marine Policies * [203]; Contagious Diseases Act (1866) Amendment * [193]; Petit Juries (Ireland) * [209]; Metropolitan Police Funds * [132], and passed.
The House met at Two of the clock.

ARMY—THE CONTROL DEPARTMENT.

  QUESTIONS.
  COLONEL JERVISsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, Whether Lieutenant General Sir Henry Storks,

  811
  G. C. B., Controller in Chief, War Department, has not expressed his entire disapproval of the views laid down by the Treasury in their Letter of the 29th June last respecting the proposed arrangements of the Control Department, more especially as they do not carry out the Recommendations of Lord Strathnairn's Committee?
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONin reply, said he trusted that his hon. and gallant Friend would not think him wanting in courtesy to him if he declined to state in that House the substance of any conversations which might have passed between himself and the War Office officials with whom he had the pleasure of acting. There was, however one statement which be wished to make, as it might possibly be inferred from the Question that his hon. and gallant Friend intended to imply that there had been some personal difference between Sir Henry Storks and himself. [Colonel JERVIS: Not the slightest!] He did not mean to say that such was the intention of his hon. and gallant Friend, but he thought that might possibly be inferred from the terms of the Question, and he wished, therefore, to state most specifically that nothing could be more friendly and harmonious than his communications with Sir Henry Storks.
  COLONEL JERVISsaid, he would now beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, Whether he will lay upon the Table the Papers referred to in War Office Letter of the 6th April 1868, page 19 of Papers marked War Office, "Control Department," 373, as the "enclosed Draft Regulations;" together with any Memorandum thereupon by the Chief Controller?
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONreplied that his hon. and gallant Friend was quite mistaken in the inference which he seemed to have drawn, that the Regulations now upon the table of the House had been drawn by the Treasury. The first Draft of the Regulations was somewhat hastily compiled, and was rather more lengthy than was necessary. It was, therefore, improved and revised; but the revised Copy, which was now on the table, had been drawn up by the same hand which drew up the original Regulations, and he could not see what good object was to be attained by laying on the table the first Draft, which had been improved upon and considerably altered.

FRESCOES IN THE HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT.—QUESTION.
MR. COWPERsaid, he wished to ask the First Commissioner of Works, Whether he has received any Chemical Report on the trials that have been made for the induration of the Walls of the Houses of Parliament, and whether he will lay such Report upon the Table of the House; and, when the public will be admitted to see the Frescoes painted by the late Mr. Dyce in the Queen's Robing Room?
LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, in reply, that as far as the Frescoes were concerned, they were now quite fit to be inspected by the public, and he believed he might also say, with great confidence, that they would prove themselves to be fully worthy of the fame of that distinguished and lamented artist. With regard to the room itself, there were some slight works being carried on under Mr. Barry's charge, which were not yet completed. Mr. Barry had been called away from London, and he was not able to say precisely how soon the room, would be in a condition to be opened to the public, but he apprehended very shortly indeed.

PUBLIC SCHOOLS (re-committed) BILL.
(Mr. Walpole, Sir Stafford Northcote, Mr. Secretary Gathorne Hardy).
[BILL 135.]

PUBLIC SCHOOLS (re-committed) BILL.

  COMMITTEE. [Progress, 23rd June.]
  Bill considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Clause 20 (Powers of Special Commissioners).
  MR. NEWDEGATEobserved that it was contrary to practice to repeal Acts of Parliament without specifying them, and he therefore proposed the following Amendment to be inserted after the word "Commissioners":—
  "But no statute or scheme proposing the repeal of any Act of Parliament, or the alteration of the provisions or application thereof, shall have effect until the same has been submitted to Parliament in a Bill, to be introduced by Her Majesty's Ministers within two months after the commencement of the then next Session of Parliament, and such Bill shall have been enacted."
  The clause as it stood was a departure from the practice of the Universities and the Common Law of the State. There were two principal Acts of Parliament under which the property of these schools

  813
  was appropriated, and his object in moving this Amendment was to prevent any existing Act relating to the public schools of this country being varied or repealed by Order in Council.
  MR. WALPOLEobserved that the clause as drawn was almost entirely analogous to the Oxford and Cambridge Act. He did not think the hon. Gentleman was aware of what would be the legal effect of his Amendment. He (Mr. Walpole) thought the introduction of those words would cause great confusion, and instead of enabling the Commissioners or the Governing Body to settle what are to be the future arrangements, they would have to come back to Parliament, re-opening the whole of the questions now discussed.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, his object was to take care that a set of Commissioners or the new Governing Body should not have power to vary Acts of Parliament.
  COLONEL SYKESsaid, he hoped the clause gave no such power.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, he could not admit that the clause would give any power to repeal Acts of Parliament. This Amendment would render it necessary to bring every scheme before Parliament to be discussed, and that would be obviously most inconvenient.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he thought the Amendment proposed would do away with all the advantage of passing the Bill. Where would be the benefit of the measure unless the new Governing Body had power to reform or make better regulations for the conduct of the schools?
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, that his object was that the property in question should be dealt with by Act of Parliament.
  MR. GOLDNEYsupported the clause as it stood.
  MR. HENLEYsaid, that the object of his hon. Friend (Mr. Newdegate) was to prevent a course being followed which was unprecedented; and his hon. Friend contended that these schools should be enabled to come to Parliament in the same way as the schemes of the Charity Commissioners were submitted to Parliament.
  MR. NEATEsaid, there was a precedent, and in proof of it he would refer to the Acts relating to Oxford University.
  MR. NEWDEGATEdenied that there was any precedent, and in the case referred to by the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Neate) the Act of Parliament was never mentioned.
  COLONEL SYKESsaid, the Commissioners would be enabled to deal with the rights of property in utter ignorance by this House.
  MR. DARBY GRIFFITHsaid, he could not understand the tendency to hand despotic powers to Commissioners.
  Amendment negatived.
  Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
  Clause 21 (Clause A. Scheme for Appropriation of Estate to Westminster School).
  MR. WYNN MR. WYNN moved in page 11, line 10, to leave out "exceeding," and insert "less than." He stated that the expenses of Westminster School had increased from £2,176 in 1861 to £2,681 in 1867; and that the Commissioners had stated in their Report that £3,300 would be barely sufficient to meet the expenditure of the future. He therefore proposed to alter the clause, so that the sum set apart for the Westminster School shall not be less than £3,500.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, if this were agreed to, he should move the insertion of other words preventing the Ecclesiastical Commissioners from appropriating more than £4,000 to Westminster School.
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, he hoped it would not be lost sight of by the friends of the Church and the supporters of religion that property originally set apart for the religious culture of the poorest was being appropriated for the education of the wealthiest. ["No, no!"] That he maintained was the fact. Reverting to the clause under consideration he advised the granting of an annuity to the School, rather than giving it property which could be much more cheaply managed by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. He moved the insertion, of the words "or for granting an annuity of the like amount."
  MR. MOWBRAYsaid, he hoped the Committee would not agree to the Motion, on the ground that it would maintain the connection between the Chapter, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and the School, whereas the object of the Bill was to sever the connection, and place the School upon, an entirely independent footing.
  MR. BENTINCKsaid, he could not allow the statement of the hon. and learned Member for the Tower Hamlets to go un-

  815
  contradicted. The boys at Westminster School formerly were by no means exclusively the sons of the wealthy; they included a great many sons of struggling professional men, whose difficulties were greater very often than those of persons nominally in a poorer grade. The hon. and learned Member appeared to think that no boys whatever ought to be on the foundation but those whom one sees running about the streets in leather breeches and a little muffin cap.
  MR. NEATEsaid, he had certainly understood from many "Old Westminsters" that the School used to be specially the resort of the British aristocracy.
  MR. W. LOWTHERsaid, the aristocracy used to be strongly represented at Westminster, but they did not, as alleged, devour the endowments, which were freely enjoyed by sons of the poorer clergy and struggling professional men. The endowments of Westminster were not being created now for the first time, and in any fresh distribution of the funds he thought the School had a right to claim its fair proportion.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, the Government might very fairly have supported the recommendation of the Committee; but they had shown a ready lavishness to spoliate the people by adding a further sum of £500 a year to the endowment. His hon. Friends who had been educated at Westminster School seemed to believe that they had been there in company with all the poverty of the town; but that was not the impression of anybody else. What he complained of was, that those who had the charge of this Bill had refused to introduce a clause which would limit the application of these public funds to people who shall give evidence that they were required for the purposes of their education. He had a right to say therefore that this was a Bill for the benefit of a class who could afford to pay for their education. Supposing that Westminster School was used by those who could not pay for their own education, he would ask whether the same thing could be said of Eton, Harrow, and Rugby? Were those schools carried on upon the principle of being most adapted to the people who could not afford to pay for their education? On the contrary, their only peculiarity was that they were most expensive in point of charge, and least effective in point of education. ["No, no !"] It was notorious that the education of the majority of the scholars was neg-
  816
  lected for the purpose of occasionally producing what were called "show boys."
  MR. WALPOLEsaid, the hon. and learned Gentleman, who was so severe upon the Government, had not been very careful as to the accuracy of his own stetement. So far from the Government seeking to spoliate the funds belonging to the Church, the proposal in Committee to fill up the blank with the sum of £3,500 was carried by a majority of 14 or 15 votes, the only dissentient being the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the Tower Hamlets. The Committee had determined that a sum should be paid to the School out of the property of the Dean and Chapter, amounting to nearly £3,593, and all that was now asked to be done, in addition, was, that the Commissioners should be left a discretion to increase that amount to a sum not exceeding £4,000. The Government, in sanctioning that proposal, were simply acting on the equitable construction to be put on the statutes, which laid it down that portions of the funds in question fairly belonged to Westminster School.
  Amendment negatived.
  MR. MARSH MR. MARSH moved the insertion, page 11, line 12,after the word "them," of the words—
  "The playground in Vincent Square with the buildings thereon; the dormitory with its appurtenances; the school and class-rooms; the houses and premises of the Head master and Under master; the three boarding-houses; the gymnasium excepting the crypts; and subject to existing interests the house in Great Dean's Yard, now occupied by the Rector Canon of Saint John the Evangelist, Westminster; the house abutting on the school premises, and now occupied by Mr. Turle; the house now occupied by the Sub-Dean and the house situate at the south-western corner of Great Dean's Yard, now numbered, and in the occupation of Mrs. Gullan and."
  The space occupied by Westminster School, he said, was only 5,000 square feet, whereas King's College and the City of London School occcupied a space of 12,000 feet. He trusted the number of boys at Westminster School would largely increase, and if that were so they would stand in need of the additional accommodation which he proposed to provide.
  MR. W. LOWTHERexpressed a hope that the Committee would accede to the very reasonable suggestion which had just been made. The requirements of the present day necessitated that additional accommodation should be provided for the School.
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. POWELL MR. POWELL moved to omit the words, "and such other portions of the said Chapter estates as are essential to the well-being of the School."
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. MARSHsaid, that, according to the proviso at the end of the clause, in the event of Westminster School being removed beyond the City of Westminster, all its property and income derived from the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, or from the Dean and Chapter of Westminster, or their estates, would revert to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. He thought that Westminster School should be treated on the same principle as the Charterhouse School; and therefore, by way of Amendment, he moved in line 28, after "governing body," leave out to the end of the clause.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, he was of opinion that there was force in the argument that Westminster School, not being an entirely independent school, but being connected with Westminster Abbey, should not be allowed to take the funds which arose from the revenues of Westminster Abbey and spend them in some place in the country. He therefore deemed it desirable that the decision of the Select Committee, which was in favour of the proviso, should be adhered to, though the matter was of no great practical importance, as it was not probable that Westminster School would be removed into the country.
  MR. BERESFORD HOPEsaid, he thought that the buildings round Dean's Yard ought to be reserved, and ought to lapse to the Abbey, if the School should be removed.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clauses 22 to 26 agreed to.
  Clause 27 postponed.
  Remaining Clauses agreed to.
  MR. LOWE, in proposing a new clause, providing for an annual examination by Inspectors, said, that the proposal was not altogether a new one, because when the Public Schools Commission were inquiring into the matter they invited the public schools to submit to an examination of the kind he proposed; but for various reasons, all equally cogent, these schools declined the honour that was offered them. He made this proposal in no spirit of hostility
  818
  to the public schools, but in friendship for the youth of this country. A very good case for the clause was, he thought, to be found in the Report of the Commissioners. A gentleman of great judgment and experience, for instance, stated that a few years ago the University of Oxford had to make its course commence with the mere rudiments of education, and on page 26 of their Report the Commissioners arrived at the conclusion, among others, that the classical knowledge possessed by young men leaving school was very low, but that the knowledge of arithmetic, mathematics, and general information was lower still. Now the deficiencies thus pointed out in no unfriendly spirit were such that he felt sure the Committee must deplore their existence. At Winchester, in his time, neither writing nor reading was taught, and a similar state of things prevailed, he believed, at most of our public schools. The question then arose how so great a want was to be supplied? His idea was that the sources of improvement were not to be sought in the endowments of a school, but in the parents of the children by whom it was attended. The object which the Committee should endeavour
  to secure was to bring the opinion of the parents to bear on the system of instruction which their children received; because our public schools being in the main adventure schools necessarily depended very much on those who were their customers. It was desirable, therefore, that the fathers and mothers of England should be made acquainted with the deficiencies in the education given, and the way to that was to submit the schools to examination and to make known the result. If the views of the Commissioners should then be found to be correct, a service would be done by having public attention called to the fact, while, if not, an erroneous notion would have been dispelled, and the schools would be the gainers. In either event such examinations as he proposed could not fail to be attended with advantage, and he could not see how, on the ground of expediency, there could be any objection to the clause. But then, perhaps, it might be opposed on the ground of right. It might be contended that Government Inspectors could not properly be empowered to enter the schools for the purpose of instituting an examination of the pupils. These schools, however, he would remind the Committee were really founded on endowments, and the Commissioners on Middle-class Education

  819
  reported in favour of having every endowed school examined under Government inspection. He was therefore only asking the Committee to anticipate the recommendations of those Commissioners; and, indeed, it would, he thought, have been better if endowed schools had been dealt with as a whole, and the invidious distinction between public and private schools obviated. If the subjects to which his clause related were taught in our public schools, he could not understand why they should shrink from the proposed examination; if not, he could not gee why the House of Commons should shrink from making the fact known to the world. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving the following clause:—
  "That all boys educated at the seven Schools mentioned in this Act shall be examined once a year, by one of the Inspectors of the Committee of Council on Education, in reading, writing from dictation, arithmetic, including vulgar fractions, practice, and the rule of three, geography, English grammar and history, and the results of such examination and the Report of the examining Inspectors shall be laid before Parliament.—(Mr. Lowe).
  MR. DARBY GRIFFITHcontended that the effect of the adoption of the clause would be to degrade the great public schools of England down to the level of village schools. The right hon. Gentleman had in another place ascribed his success in life to his command of his mother tongue; but he would venture to say that there was no Member of that House who owed more to other sources. Had he trusted to his mother tongue alone, independently of the classical reputation which he had acquired, he would scarcely have reached so high a position as he had achieved. The right hon. Gentleman scorned to wish to interfere with private right, and the function of the Head master of the school. There was no such thing as mens sana in corpore sano, as when the mind was cultivated the body suffered, and when the body was highly cultivated the mind suffered. The richness of our language arose from the Anglo-Saxon foundation, enriched by copious gatherings from Greek and Latin. It was to these agglomerated sources that the English language owed its richness. The object of Eton and Westminster was to raise the minds of the pupils; but all those in the public schools would feel that examination in the branches mentioned in the Resolution would be a degradation.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he would be obliged to vote against the clause, be-
  820
  cause he did not think the Inspectors of the Committee in Council would be the proper examiners, nor did he think an examination should be limited to reading, writing, and arithmetic, or be confined to the schools affected by the Bill. He thought all endowed schools should be subjected to examination. Nothing seemed more clearly proved than this in the evidence before the Committee. If his right hon. Friend would frame a clause that would submit all these schools to an extensive examination, he (Mr. Forster) would vote for it; but he was afraid many of the schools would think this clause an insult.
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, he hoped the clause would be pressed to a division, because it was evident that most pupils at public schools did not know as much as an intelligent charity boy. Complaint had been made that the whole time of public school boys was taken up by the study of Latin and Greek; but, as a matter of fact, they learnt very little of these languages. An ordinarily educated German could converse with a foreigner in Latin if the two had no other language in common; but how many Englishmen carried from a public school sufficient Latin to do this? He confessed that, although he might be able to translate some half dozen words of Latin, he was wholly unable to translate a sentence from the Greek, although he had studied those languages for ten years at a public school. He complained that it was the fault of the system and his misfortune that this was so. The fact was, public schools had become mere hotbeds of social exclusiveness and aristocratic prejudice, where people sent their sons to pick up what they called gentlemanly connections. He hoped that a division would be resorted to, in which case the right hon. Gentleman would find more Members voting for him than he expected.
  MR. WALPOLEagreed that it was desirable to remedy as far as possible the deficiency of their public schools with regard to the lower branches of education; but he did not think that the remedy which the right hon, Gentleman proposed to apply would at all hit the source of the disease. The sources of the deficiency were chiefly two—one was connected with the boys, as the hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. Labouchere) had virtually admitted was his own case, the other was traceable to the parents. The real fault lay with the parents themselves, who left the responsi-

  821
  bility altogether upon the school and the masters, and did not pay sufficient attention themselves to the progress which their boys made. But how was that difficulty to be got over? He believed the Bill would meet this evil much better than the appointment of Inspectors, and that it would be the primary duty of the newly-constituted governing bodies to make regulations for accomplishing the very purposes to which it was proposed that the Inspectors should apply themselves. It would be a great mistake, and that not merely in educational matters, to encourage the belief that everything which was complained of could be got rid of by a system of Government inspection. Evils like these were properly to be encountered and surmounted by the exertions of the people themselves. Even if Government Inspectors were appointed, in time the duties would be very imperfectly discharged, and the system would end very much in matters of form. Seeing, therefore, that the object which his right hon. Friend had chiefly in view could be accomplished by trusting and strengthening the new governing bodies, he hoped the Motion would not be pressed to a division.
  MR. PERCY WYNDHAMsaid, there was no doubt the fault lay to some extent with the parents; but a parent who paid £200 a year for the education of his boy had, at the same time, a right to expect that he would be taught the elementary branches of learning. For his own part, he hoped the Motion would be pressed to a division. The Government had done a great deal during the last twenty years for the education of the poorer classes, and it was time now that something should be done for the children of the upper and middle classes. Government inspection, he believed, would do a great deal towards renewing public confidence in the education given in the public schools.
  MR. HENLEYsaid, of all the curious propositions put forward during the present discussion, this was the most remarkable. For the last couple of years the Legislature had occupied itself in constituting anew the Governing Bodies of the great schools; it had not hesitated to deal freely with founders' wills, with Acts of Parliament, or, as some put it, had not scrupled to "rob the poor." But hardly was all this done, the work even was not yet completed, when the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lowe) came forward and said—
  " These very authorities whom you have just
  822
  established with so strong a hand are not fit for anything—not fit even to judge whether the schools are teaching anything or nothing."
  Surely, if you have swept away much of what exists and set up something in its stead that you declare not to be competent to decide whether children can read or write, you must have done a great deal of wrong, and the better course would be to proceed no further with the Bill. What confidence could the Committee put in the machinery which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Calne (Mr. Lowe) now proposed? Why, he was the very man who was forced to come down to the House some years ago and state that all the beautiful system of inspection which had gone on for many years under the Privy Council was an utter failure, that the children could neither read nor write, and that an Act of Parliament was necessary to set right the very matters which, according to the Inspectors' Reports, varied only in their degrees of excellence. He honestly avowed that he had no faith in the proposed system of inspection. It was a serious charge, and behind it was the whole question of visitation. Were the Committee going to strike down the system of visitation, and to create in its stead a system of inspection? The hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. Labouchere) told the House that there were a great many boys in these schools who learnt nothing. Some of these were not wanting in ability, but they set that ability to work to defy the masters, putting up with any little inconveniences for the sake of carrying their object. If the Committee chose to enact that the children in the different public schools should learn reading, writing, or arithmetic, that proposition in itself might be deserving of consideration. But a system of Government inspection, he believed, would be a failure, and, furthermore, would militate against the system of visitation.
  MR. ACLANDsaid, the great evil of the public schools was the tacit recognition of idleness. One of the Assistant masters at Eton brought before him very plainly the difficulty of grappling with this evil, when he repeated a saying of the parent of one of these boys—"I don't care whether my boy learns anything as long as he makes a good connection." The gentleman who made this remark was a man likely to rise into a very high position in society, but he was nevertheless somewhat of an upstart. The ceremony of examination under the operation of the clause would

  823
  in his opinion, be a great farce. Who were to be the examiners? Inspectors appointed by the Privy Council, who, he must say, with all respect for some of them, were not men in the slightest degree fitted to discharge the duty. Indeed, it would be nothing less than an insult to any respectable middle-class school, be thought, to send such persons to examine the scholars. Why were decimal fractions omitted from the list of subjects in which the examination was to take place? He hoped the Committee would not consent by a sidewind to erect the President of the Council into a Minister of Public Instruction. If the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Calne was so anxious for improvement in the direction to which his clause pointed, why did he not propose, he should like to know, that all boys should be examined before they were admitted to our great public schools? He himself was the advocate of enforcing elementary education in the schools of England from top to bottom; but the subject was one of great importance, requiring serious consideration, and ought not to be dealt with in a chance clause, such as that under discussion. The clause should run, not "all boys educated at the seven schools;" but all boys "admitted" to the seven schools.
  COLONEL SYKESmaintained that the principle advocated by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Calne was a sound one. The object of the clause was to see that the endowed schools did their duty in elementary knowledge. The fault was not in the pupils or the parents, but in the system. According to the rules at Harrow a pupil might go out with honours in Greek and Latin without knowing the multiplication table.
  MR. J. STUART MILLsaid, the remedy which was now proposed was that the scholars should be examined, not in what the schools professed to teach, but in what every boy should know before he went. To examine them in what any boy should know at a National School might be an extremely good joke against the schools; but he hoped no one would vote for it seriously. The examination should be in those subjects the cultivation of which was the purpose of the schools. But he quite agreed that the examination provided by the clause might be applied as an entrance examination.
  MR. HEYGATEthought the objections which had been urged against the teaching
  824
  at Eton applied more to a past state of things than to the present.
  MR. NEATE, having a great respect for endowments, protested against the way in which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Calne (Mr. Lowe) proposed to treat them, and expressed himself as not well satisfied with the feeble defence of them which had been made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Walpole).
  MR. LOWE, in reply to the hon. Member for Westminster (Mr. Stuart Mill), who argued that the Motion might be good as far as it went, but that it should go further, observed that it could go no further, as there was no machinery by which the boys could be examined to better effect than according to the plan he proposed. With regard to the Universities, there were enormous endowments held out to those who learnt there; but with regard to elementary studies nothing was to be got in the way of endowments, and no endowments were held out as rewards for good teaching. Therefore, it was important to bring before the public the amount of deficiency in teaching which might exist in any institution. The hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. D. Griffith) said that his (Mr. Lowe's) tongue was not enough. Now he (Mr. Lowe) quite agreed with him—mother wit was wanted as well as mother tongue. As to the statement that there was no such thing as mens sana in corpore sano, probably on that point the hon. Member spoke from his own experience. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Walpole) attributed the evil to the wrong cause, and suggested the wrong remedy. He said that the evil was the fault of the parents. How was it their fault if they paid sufficiently for the education of their children? In that case was it not the fault of those who undertook to give the education and did not give it? Then, again, the right hon. Gentleman said that the remedy was to be sought in the governing bodies. Was that according to the analogy of human affairs? The evil of these endowments was that the persons enjoying them had a duty to perform but no interest in performing it, and it was desirable to create that interest in the Head masters by making known to the parents what was and was not taught. Then the right hon. Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) said that it was monstrous that these great changes should have been made, and that governing bodies who were not

  825
  competent to see the desired things done should have been created. Did the right hon. Gentleman suppose that the governing bodies of schools could be inspectors in that sense, and that they should look after the Head masters and stimulate them to teach what ought to be taught? Where were to be found the governing bodies who had ever exercised this great supervision? The right hon. Member for Oxfordshire expressed surprise that he (Mr. Lowe) should have made the present proposal, because he had pointed out that the inspection of schools was nugatory, and yet he now advised, it was said, the introduction of inspection. What he now proposed was not inspection, but examination; and when inspection was found deficient was not the evil remedied by examination? The statements which were made with regard to the defective results of inspection were at the time boldly denied, and by no one more strongly than by the right hon. Gentleman, and yet when they came to be investigated every word of them was verified. It stood pro confesso that the things mentioned in his clause were not taught at these schools; but he would not expose the remedy proposed in the clause to the disadvantage of a division in the existing temper of the House.
  Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. AYRTON MR. AYRTON moved clauses, to be inserted in all statutes under this Act, providing for the admission of day scholars into every school to which the Bill applied. In a vague way the Bill recognized the admission of such scholars; but the provision did not go far enough, it being merely permissive, whereas the object of his clause was to make the admission of day scholars compulsory. The demands of the masters of these schools were enormous—£150 or £200 a year; but there were a great many people in this country who, from their position, might fairly desire to have their sons educated in those schools who could not afford to pay such a sum. There were, for instance, officers in the army and navy, members of the professions, many country gentlemen and clergymen, whose income would not enable them to pay such large demands. Then, there were a great many widows, whose husbands had occupied considerable positions, and who generally resorted to the places were those schools were situated, in order to obtain education for their sons at the low rate of charge. It was incum-
  826
  bent on the Committee to secure that the classes he had described should have the benefit of education for their sons on paying the actual sum required for instruction. The only objection to this was that the richer classes sent their sons there for social considerations, which they regarded as superior to educational considerations. Now, that was a feeling to which they ought not completely to succumb. The spirit of exclusiveness was cultivated by these schools, and the more the false pride and pretension of money was checked the better, by the association of the children, of the wealthy with those who, though not so rich, were probably their superiors in mental accomplishments and moral elevation of character. He proposed to limit the application of the clause to children residing with persons who stood to them in the fourth degree of relationship. He trusted that the right hon. Gentleman would consent to the clause being inserted in the Bill.
  Clause (In the statutes to be made under this Act, for every school to which this Act applies, provision shall be made for the education of any boy, as a day scholar, who may be residing within three miles of the school with a parent or relative within the fourth degree of relationship, consanguinity, or affinity, or with his guardian, and who may be proved by a preliminary examination to be in other respects fit to be educated at such school: Provided, That every such boy may be required to pay a reasonable sum for his education not exceeding that paid by borders,)—(Mr. Ayrton,)—brought up, and read the first time.
  MR. P. WYKEHAM-MARTIN, in supporting the clause, observed that when he was at Eton there were there a certain number of day scholars, the sons of tradesmen, who were received upon an equality with the rest of the scholars.
  MR. BARNETTalso supported the clause and remarked that he recollected when the head boy of Eton was the son of an Eton tradesman.
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, that the boys were all treated alike at the public schools.
  MR. WALPOLEobjected to the clause, on the ground that it would interfere with the management of the school by permitting the influx of a number of boys far larger than the teaching power of the school was calculated to educate in a proper manner. He added that under a clause of the Bill the object of the hon. and learned Gentleman might be accomplished.
  MR. NEATEurged the necessity for some such provision, as the interest of the

  827
  school would rather be in the direction of boarders, who would be more profitable, than of day scholars.
  MR. AYRTONurged that there was no ground for the objection made by the right hon. Gentleman to the clause. He was willing to consent to the introduction of words to guard against any undue increase in the number of the scholars.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEremarked that in the 12th clause power was given to the Governing Bodies to afford facilities for boys other than boarders to attend the schools.
  MR. AYRTONsaid that power was not given to the Commissioners to do what he required, and therefore the clause was necessary.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he thought his hon. and learned Friend would do well to leave the education of the day boys to the Commission.
  Motion made, and Question put, "That the Clause be read a second time."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 40; Noes 96: Majority 56.
  House resumed.
  Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Thursday.

IRELAND—COMPULSORY PRESENTMENTS.—QUESTION.
COLONEL FRENCH, on rising to put a Question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer respecting the amount levied off the Irish counties by compulsory presentment under the head of Audit, referred to the circumstances under which Mr. Anthony Blake was appointed to the office of Chief Remembrancer under the Act of Parliament passed in 1833. In his opinion compulsory presentments had been levied off the Irish counties in a very unconstitutional manner. For works on the Shannon, which had not effected the objects for which they had been undertaken, as much as £300,000 had been so levied. He hoped his right hon. Friend would state how much had been levied for audit expenses. He would beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, For how many years the sum of £500 a year, part of the amount levied off the Irish counties by compulsory presentment under the head of Audit, has been placed to the credit of the Consolidated Fund; and, whether it is intended to appropriate the accumulated sum towards developing the resources of Ireland?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that in answer to the first Question of the right hon. Gentleman he had to say that the money referred to had been paid into the Consolidated Fund since the Act passed authorizing such payment, which was in 1843. There was an Act passed in the first year of the present reign to provide for the audit of accounts in Ireland, and a fee of not exceeding 5s. per hundred was to be paid to constitute a fee fund. The Lord Lieutenant could charge on that fund any expenses necessary for carrying out the Act; and it was provided that the expense of auditing the Treasurer's accounts should be borne by the counties. In 1843 an Act was passed having relation to the offices of Chief and Second Remembrancers in Ireland; and since the passing of that Act the duties formerly discharged by one of the Remembrancers in regard to auditing the accounts, for the audit of which the fees were levied, had been performed by one of the Masters in Chancery, who was paid out of the Consolidated Fund. It seemed not unreasonable, therefore, that the respective counties should in respect of the audit, contribute to the Consolidated Fund a sum equal to that which they formerly paid to the Remembrancer. He was not aware that there was any accumulation from those fees. If his right hon. Friend could show that there was, he would have the matter inquired into. He could, however, assure his right hon. Friend that the Consolidated Fund was a considerable loser by the offices of the Court of Chancery in Ireland, as the fees received from them did not amount to the sum which had to be provided for those offices.
MR. SYNANsaid, he did not think the explanation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer satisfactory. The Master in Chancery who audited the accounts referred to only received the same salary as the other Masters of the same Court.

SUPPLY—CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.

  SUPPLY—considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee).
  (1.) £67,380, to complete the sum for the British Museum.
  MR. LOWE: The grant to the British Museum last year was £95,446, and the sum for which I am to ask this year is £99,380, showing an increase of £3,934. That increase is accounted for mainly by

  829
  grants for different special purposes. For instance, £1,000 extra have been granted for the purchase of Mr. Hay's very curious and interesting collection of Egyptian antiquities; £1,300 for the purchase of a bronze head of Hypnos, with an owl's wing on one side of the head, and other bronzes of great value; £1,000 for researches in Asia Minor, conducted by Mr. Dennis, mainly into the tombs of the Lydian kings at Sardis; and £1,000 to the gentleman who was sent with the Abyssinian Expedition. These sums together nearly cover the increase upon the former Estimate; and, as the year has been very uneventful, it is not necessary for me to detain the Committee with further observations. I ought, however, to mention the munificent bequest which has been made to the Museum by Mr. Slade of a very curious collection of glass worth £8,000, and prints worth £1,600. The gentleman whom we despatched to Abyssinia upon a scientific mission with the expeditionary force seems have acquitted himself of the task with great energy and considerable success. He obtained a large quantity of Ethiopic manuscripts, which we have not yet had an opportunity of inspecting, but which may, perhaps, contain something of interest and value, remembering that in 1820 the remarkable Book of Jasher was recovered from Abyssinia. Mr. Holmes, it seems, contrived to get into Magdala within ten minutes after the troops entered; he found the dead body of Theodore, and made a sketch of him as he lay, which competent judges have pronounced to a most faithful and admirable likeness. He also secured from a private soldier, for the very moderate sum of £4, the crown of the Abuna, and also a chalice and some other articles. I am sorry to add that, though these were obtained for the modest amount which I have stated, we are now offered by the Government the option of purchasing our own collection for the sum of £2,000. These were the only items which it was necessary for him to mention in connection with the Vote. There is only one subject more; but it is one which ought always to be mentioned on these occasions, and that is the question of room. There is no complaint against the Government on this account. They have taken all the necessary information, and I trust that before long we shall have a comprehensive scheme, which is so much needed for the proper display of the objects in the Museum. The fact is we are proceeding in a most absurd
  830
  manner. We are spending large sums in obtaining a valuable collection, a great part of which is useless and packed away, I because this House has not made due provision for the treasures it has so liberally acquired. This is a state of things which is an opprobrium to the national liberality and taste. We have a collection that would make the fortune of twenty ordinary museums, yet they are lost to view as if they did not exist, and they are undergoing a process of injury and dilapidation. He hoped that something would soon be done to remove this opprobrium on the public taste and sense. The right hon. Gentlemen concluded by moving the Vote.
  MR. ALDERMAN LUSKcongratulated the Trustees on the success of their efforts in obtaining works of art; but could not congratulate the Museum upon its success in a popular point of view. Notwithstanding the sums that had been spent on it, the people did not go to it as they were expected to do, and the number of visitors fell off every year. Even the readers frequenting the Reading Room showed a diminution of more than 30,000 in the last six years. There was far too much of some things, and too little of other things. People got tired of seeing so many cats, dogs, monkeys and birds—in fact it wanted weeding. Many of the gems and articles of value the right hon. Gentleman admitted were put away in cellars. Even celebrated antiquities did not please everyone. A person he knew said of one room that it was "full of big stones, and men without heads, and he did not see much merit in them." He told his friend he was not perhaps a judge of Fine Art; but being himself in the room devoted to antiquities the other day not a single person was to be seen. The public wanted greater variety, and the tastes of all should be considered and not that of only one part of the community. At present he could not-regard the British Museum as a success, or as a proof of good management.
  COLONEL NORTHsaid, that as it appeared that some of the greatest curiosities that would give the Museum greater novelty were "going to the bad" for want of more space, he wondered why the worthy Alderman did not propose a large sum for a proper building.
  VISCOUNT AMBERLEYagreed in thinking that the present managemement of the Museum was not satisfactory; but the fault was not with the Trustees. One great drawback to the library was the

  831
  want of a printed catalogue. If a catalogue were published every three or four years the sale would be to a considerable extent remunerative, and it would greatly add to the usefulness of the Museum.
  MR. M. CHAMBERSsaid, that a few years ago property might have been purchased adjacent to the Museum on very' reasonable terms. He believed that it would be an economical thing even now if on estimate were made for the purchase of the property in Montague Street, and if negociations were forthwith entered into to buy the property. Such a step would, of course, invoke the question of the separation of articles of vertu from the collection of natural history. Ought it not to be the duty of some one to ascertain what articles were now stowed away and perhaps going to ruin for want of proper accomodation in the Museum? He believed the time had arrived when there ought to be a proper depositary for the invaluable treasures of every description collected in the British Museum.
  Vote agreed to.

  SUPPLY—CUSTOMS DEPARTMENT.
  (2.) £1,024,653, Customs Department.
  MR. ALDERMAN LUSKcommended the economical administration of this Department, and said it was an example which he thought might be advantageously imitated in the Admiralty and other Departments; but he ought to have remembered the Customs existed for the collection of money and the other offices seemingly only for the purpose of spending it.
  Vote agreed to.

  SUPPLY—INLAND REVENUE DEPARTMENT.
  (3.) £1,574,210, Inland Revenue Department.
  Vote agreed to.

  SUPPLY—POST OFFICE, &c.
  (4.) £2,369,235, Post Office, &c.
  VISCOUNT MILTONcalled attention to the absence of any direct communication between this country and British Columbia.
  MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, the matter could be more conveniently entered into if the noble Lord would give Notice of a Question upon it.
  MR. ALDERMAN LUSKremarked upon the insufficient redress given with respect to lost letters, and gave an instance which recently came under his own notice. He
  832
  was not quite sure that the Post Office was so well-managed as it was stated to be, and complained that the authorities were rather harshly prosecuting a company for delivering circulars at a fourth of the cost which they charged.
  MR. M. CHAMBERSexpressed an opinion that much improvement might be made in the postal service by the adoption of a system of country sorting offices, to which letters might be sent direct, instead of, as in many cases, being first sent to London, whereby much time was lost. Some years ago he drew the attention of the Post Office to this subject. He found that if a letter intended to be sent to Chatham were put in the Post Office at Woolwich at seven o'clock, it was sent up to London, and passed by Woolwich again at twelve o'clock the next day, and was not delivered at Chatham till about two o'clock in the day. He admitted that the great commercial communities were well served; but he thought greater advantages might be conferred on the rural districts.
  MR. M'LARENcalled attention to the expediency of carrying printed matters cheaply by the Post Office. The Post Office, having a monopoly, was able to drive private carriers out of the market. But when the private carriers were allowed to deliver circulars, they could carry with profit to themselves for a farthing what the Post Office charged a penny for carrying. Agencies were established in Liverpool, London, Edinburgh, and other towns for the delivery of circulars; but the Post Office took legal means of establishing its monopoly, and put down the private trade. The Post Office now proposed that they should be allowed to do all the telegraph business of the country, on the ground that they could do the work much more cheaply than the telegraphic companies. If that was true, why could not the Post Office carry circulars for double the charge that would be asked by private carriers? He thought the Post Office ought to carry any printed matter not exceeding one ounce for a halfpenny. If that price were charged a very large number of circulars would be sent through the Post Office. There was a special reason why circulars should be carried by the Post Office cheaply at this time. Millions of circulars were sent out at election tune, and it had been calculated that if a candidate for a large town, such as Liverpool, Glasgow, or Manchester, were to send four circulars to each elector by the penny post it would cost him

  833
  £1,000. He (Mr. M'Laren) did not know whether the rules of the House would allow him to move, "That, in the opinion of this House, the Post Office should carry printed matter, not exceeding one ounce in weight, for a halfpenny." No Act of Parliament was necessary to effect the alteration. An Order from the Treasury to-morrow would be as effectual as any Act of Parliament. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary to the Treasury would take this matter into their serious consideration, and give an assurance that the reform he suggested should be carried into effect without delay.
  MR. J. STUART MILLsaid, that with reference to the matter so ably advocated by his hon. Friend, he could not help suggesting to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that it would be very proper to carry bonâ fide election circulars through the Post Office free. If that were done it might come to pass that candidates would address their constituents much more by circulars than by speeches. Election expenses were increased much more than hon. Gentlemen were aware by the charges for the delivery of election circulars.
  COLONEL FRENCHsaid, that hon. Gentlemen seemed to forget that the Post Office contributed to the revenue of the country. In his opinion no person had reason to complain of 1d. being charged for any quantity of printed matter not exceeding four ounces. The efficiency and economy of the Post Office had been recognized in every country. As to the complaint of want of accommodation in the rural districts, he could say that as far as his experience went it was not well founded.
  MR. WYLDcalled the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to a prosecution which was being carried on against the Circular Delivery Company. That Company charged only one farthing for a circular for which the Post Office charged 1d. Now, a most important question was involved in this prosecution; because if the Government could prosecute the Company they could also prosecute any private person who delivered his own circulars. If it were true that the country derived a revenue from the Post Office, it should not be forgotten that the Post Office was established for the benefit of the country.
  MR. RAMSAYsaid, that the object of the Post Office was to bring the different
  834
  parts of the country within reach of each other. He could assure the hon. and gallant Member below him (Colonel French) that his experience as to the accommodation given to the rural districts was very different. He knew parts of Scotland where the post from London could not be reckoned to reach in less than a month, and where a letter from New York would arrive as soon as one from London. He had himself conveyed Her Majesty's Mails for the last fifty years for nothing in some of the remote districts of Scotland.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he was not able to answer the question of the hon. Member (Mr. Wyld) about the prosecution, as he had not received Notice that it would be put; but if the hon. Member would repeat it he would be happy to let him know how the matter stood at another time. With respect to the Circular Delivery Agency, be understood that some of those agencies professed to deliver circulars; but it was found that a great many of the circulars which it was alleged were delivered were thrown into rivers and ponds and out-of-the-way place, and that some of them were put into pillar-boxes without being paid for, in order that they might be delivered by the Post Office. He was not sure, therefore, that those agencies really carried out what they professed to do. He had been several times in communication with the Post Office to see whether printed matter weighing less than four ounces could not be carried cheaper than 1d. The question was still under consideration, and he hoped that they should arrive at a satisfactory solution of it.
  MR. ALDERMAN LAWRENCEcomplained that the postal communication with the Continent of Europe was very defective, and that no progress had been made in the delivery of letters. They were told in the Post Office Directory that there were two mails a day made up for France, Belgium, Holland, Hamburgh, Bremen, Prussia, Spain, Portugal, Italy, and Denmark; and therefore one might imagine that, as two mails left England for those places, there were two deliveries; but that was not the case. It was true that two mails were daily sent to Italy, but there was only one delivery; because when the letters posted in London in the evening reached Paris in the morning they they remained there all day until evening, when the French mail left Paris for Italy.

  835
  A letter posted in London at seven o'clock in the evening readied Italy exactly at the same time as a letter posted at Liverpool. He thought the time was come for all the nations of Europe arriving at an understanding not only upon the question of postal intercommunication between the various countries, but also upon the matter of establishing some uniform system and rate of postage. The subject was one well worthy of investigation and consideration by the Post Office authorities in England. It was of the utmost importance that the great bulk of the correspondence of this country should not be delayed at Paris, as was the custom at present. Nobody could guarantee when a letter posted at London would reach Berlin, Madrid, or other distant places, as no information on this point was given in the Postal Guide. This clearly demanded a remedy. He considered that if the subject were properly discussed an uniform rate of postage might be procured.
  Vote agreed to.

  POST OFFICE PACKET SERVICE.
  (5.) £789,349, to complete the sum for Post Office Packet Service.
  MR. CRAWFORDcalled attention to the recent increase of postage on letters addressed to the East Indies and Ceylon, and the exemptions allowed in certain privileged cases. The subject was considered two years ago by a Select Committee of the House, and recommendations were made which resulted in increased facilities being afforded and in many additional services being established. A recent arrangement with the Peninsular and Oriental Company had given the public the advantage of communicating once a week with Bombay, instead of forty-eight times a year as formerly; but this increase from forty-eight to fifty-two posts in the year, or about 8½ per cent, had been followed by an increase in the rate of postage from 10 d. to 1s. 1d. for letters going by way of Marseilles, and from 6d. to 9d. for letters going by Southampton. In other words, the Government were making those who used the Post Office pay the extra expense of increased service instead of trying what was to be made out of the cultivation of new and improved communication with India. Great objections had been taken to the course pursued by the Treasury, not only here but in India; and various Chambers of Commerce and other bodies interested had
  836
  petitioned on the subject, although, so far as he was aware, no answer had been returned to these representations. The present postage system was full of anomalies—for instance, a letter not exceeding half-an-ounce, viâ Marseilles, was charged 1s. 1d., and to China 1s. 4d., whereas the same letter could be sent the much greater distance of Australia for 10 d. He could not understand why this should be so. Again, a 845
  large mercantile letter, containing enclosures, say, of two ounces, could be sent to Australia for 3s. 4d., the same rate as was charged for India, whereas 4s. 4d. was charged for Ceylon and 5s. 4d. for China. And the only ground that he could see for this overcharge was that the Government had given the people of India the privilege of writing and posting their letters fifty-two times in the year, instead of forty-eight times. He objected to these increased burdens being placed upon the shoulders of correspondents. In the case of American and other letters, the postage was being reduced; and he could not understand why a different system should prevail with regard to Indian letters, unless it was because the Indian purse was a convenient one to tax. The subject was one of great importance, and he had received representations from many people in India respecting it. He had hoped that some Member of the Government would have directed their attention to it. If his remarks were to receive no attention, he had perhaps as well sit down at once, though he had hoped that some Member of the Treasury would have paid attention to what he was saying.
  MR. DISRAELI: I rise to Order, Sir; I am listening to every word the hon. Member is saying. I have reason to believe that other Gentlemen on this Bench are listening also; and I am therefore quite at a loss to put any interpretation that is intelligible upon the observations of the hon. Gentleman.
  MR. CRAWFORDsaid, that he had observed that the First Lord of the Treasury had been paying attention; but he did not think he would interest himself in these mere departmental details. He would now proceed with his remarks. The Post Office authorities had given notice that, concurrently with the establishment of the weekly mail service to India, the rates would be raised to 1s. 1d. per ½oz. to the general public, while letters for officers of the army and navy would still be carried at 6d. viâ Southampton, and 10 d. viâ Marseilles. He

  837
  could not understand on what principle this privilege was granted, and he knew that to many commercial and professional men postage was as much a burden as it was to officers of the army and navy. The recent increased charges had the effect of inducing people who carried on an extensive correspondence with India to look far more closely than they had previously done to that item of their expenditure; and he could state that a firm in the City had thus been induced to use lighter paper and to adopt other expedients by which their expenses were diminished £5 a week on their inward and the same sum on their outward letters, so that the Post Office would receive from them £500 a year less than there had been received before the change that had recently been effected. He felt convinced that a similar course would he followed by other firms, and that the Treasury in the long run, instead of benefiting, would suffer by the increased rate of postage, which could be justified neither by expediency nor fairness. Referring to a recently issued Return, in which the net produce of the mails between the United Kingdom and India, &c, was estimated by deductions of the amounts paid to the French Government and to the colonies, and of £25,000, or 1d. out of the 13 d., for inland conveyance, he said that if the latter deduction were made, it would be equally fair to charge the Military Estimates with the sum saved to British soldiers and sailors. Commenting upon some discrepancies in Returns, he traced them to the natural tendency on the part of those who framed the Estimates to make the burden on the taxpayers in this country for Indian postage appear as large as possible. He had no intention of moving an Amendment, and he apologized to the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Sclater-Booth) for having noticed his departure from the House when his absence was only temporary.
  MR. HORSFALLsaid, the principle had been frequently laid down in that House that mail packet contracts ought to be thrown open to public competition. But he had heard it stated that that rule had not been followed in the case of the contract for the West India mail service, and he should be glad to receive some explanation upon that subject.
  MR. T. BARINGsaid, he wished to bring under the notice of the House and of the Government a complaint made by the inhabitants of Penang. For a period
  838
  of twenty-two years the people of that colony had enjoyed direct postal communication with England; but they had been deprived of that advantage by the contract recently entered into with the Peninsular and Oriental Company. He had put a question on the subject, and had received a reply which left the impression that the Post Office would re-open negotiations with the Company, in order to remedy the grievance; and a communication was sent to the Secretary of the Company, setting forth the complaints that had been made since their steamers ceased calling at Penang. The Company offered to resume the old system provided their subsidy was increased by £5,000 a year. That offer was followed last month by a letter from the Post Office, stating that the Lords of the Treasury would not assent to such an arrangement. He believed that hitherto no case had occurred when after postal communication had been accorded to a colony it had been stopped without any compensation or equivalent being given to the colony. In regard to this particular colony it could be shown that at the time when the privilege was granted it was poor and unprotected, and yet in the course of twenty-two years it had increased enormously, and was still making rapid advances. This was obvious from the fact that one year's tonnage at Penang now was equal to the tonnage in the ten years preceding the establishment of postal communication. It was, however, now arranged that the mails should be taken from Singapore to Penang and back again to Singapore. But as the outward bound steamer touched at Singapore only three days before the homeward steamer from China touched there it would follow that the merchants at Penang would not be able to answer their letters for a fortnight. It could hardly be denied that this was a substantial grievance. And what was the reason for making the new arrangements? He was told that the only offer for carrying the mails to the East had proceeded from the Peninsular and Oriental Company; but, on the other hand, it should be borne in mind that Her Majesty's Government was the only body which could thus employ the Company, and that consequently the Government was perfectly able to insist that the Company's vessels should touch at Penang as before. Indeed, the contract contained a clause under which the Government could force on the Company the resumption of its former

  839
  duties as regards Penang, subject to such compensation as might be awarded by an arbitrator. The Company, however, had offered to perform the service for £5,000 extra, and therefore the cost to the country would be but slight when it was considered that the postage between Penang and this country produced between £2,000 and £3,000. He confessed himself unable to say very confidently whether the new system would expedite the transmission of correspondence between China and this country; but at all events the calling at Penang would only occupy fifteen hours longer. The Government was bound to consider whether it could not restore direct postal communication with Penang or make some arrangements which would give satisfaction to the colony. The conduct of the Post Office had been truly, ridiculous. He was not an advocate for an extravagant expenditure; but a stingy saving, which was not economy, had been effected, and it might result in starving one of our distant possessions without nourishing the Empire. Indeed, it would tend to deprive us of those collateral sources of wealth which established the prosperity of the country, and which were obtained by a liberal treatment of out dependencies. The question in reality was, whether the Post Office Department should lose between £2,000 and £3,000 per annum, or whether, on the other hand, the settlement of Penang should be wholly deprived of the facility and advantage of a prompt communication with this country.
  SIR GEORGE BOWYERpointed out that under the old arrangement the steamers of the Peninsular and Oriental Company touched at Malta; but under the new arrangements they had ceased to do so. At present our communications with that important dependency were made under most unsatisfactory circumstances—Italian steamers being employed to convey the mails to Sicily and thence to Malta. The communication between Sicily and Malta was only once a week, and the consequence was that there was unnecessary delay in the transmission of letters between Malta and this country. This was a great injustice to a dependency which had vastly increased in importance since the cession of the Ionian Islands. Malta was a great port and also a strong fortress, besides which it had the capabilities for becoming a dock for the whole of the Mediterranean. And yet, while knowing full well how important a place it was, the Government
  840
  had totally neglected the means of communication between this country and Malta, but had allowed the mail service to be performed by foreign steamers. The present service was dilatory, uncertain, and altogether unsatisfactory. If the Government did not take this matter up, he hoped the House would do so, in justice not only to Malta, but to this country also.
  MR. CANDLISHsaid, he had been informed that the Government had not only not invited tenders for an intermediate monthly mail to the Cape of Good Hope, but had disregarded an uninvited tender, though it was lower than the contract made with the Peninsular and Oriental Company. In substance, that contract had been entered into last year; but it was not yet laid on the table of the House. If he had not been correctly informed, the fault was with the Department in not having furnished before now a correspondence which had been ordered for the use of Members. If contracts were laid on the table only a few days before the termination of the Session, the rule of producing them, that they might be approved or objected to within a month, was not kept in spirit.
  MR. ALDERMAN LUSKobserved that in the matter of postal contracts the public should be considered as well as merchants and owners of steam-packets, The Government were bound to view such questions in an economical light—not forgetting the taxpayers—and to see that the total sum received for postage, if it did not equal, should at least bear a considerable proportion to the amount paid for the contract. In many cases the subsidies were too large, and he thought better bargains might be made.
  MR. WYLDsuggested that the experiment of having the packets call at Falmouth should be tried, as that of having them call at Plymouth had not been considered successful.
  MR. HORSMANsaid, he had received several communications from merchants and others on the subject brought under the notice of the Committee by the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. T. Baring), and he had accompanied that hon. Gentleman as one of a deputation on the subject to the Postmaster General. By a Resolution passed in 1860, all contracts extending over a period of years for the conveyance of mails by sea were required to be laid on the table of the House for a month, and the sanction of the House was necessary

  841
  to give them validity. When this question was first started by the hon. and learned Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrlon) the present Chancellor of the Exchequer said that, in consequence of the view which seemed to be taken by the House, he thought it would be undesirable to conclude the contract till the House should have had a further opportunity of expressing an opinion on the subject. Now, he took it that the rule respecting the laying of those contracts on the table had reference to a regular Session; but when Parliament held what he might call the Abyssinian Session last November, the Chancellor of the Exchequer laid this particular contract before the House on the 27th of that month, and proposed a Resolution giving it the approval of the House on the 29th. In a House of sixty-eight that Resolution was carried by 55 to 13. He thought that, under all the circumstances, that might be considered as snapping a division in favour of the contract. This case was one without precedent. Twenty-five years ago a postal communication was i given to Fenang. Since that time Penang had gone on improving. It had an increasing revenue, and that being so, there was no precedent for taking away from it postal advantages which it had been enjoying for a quarter of a century. The intention of Parliament had plainly been set aside, inasmuch as no opportunity had been afforded them of seeing the contract that was laid upon the table, while at the same time their representatives in this country were precluded from expressing their opinions as to its merits. It had always been the practice—a practice invariably adopted by Sir Rowland Hill—not to withdraw postal communications which had been once established, on the ground that the districts so convenienced failed to make a profitable return to the revenue, because it was found that, though a loss might be incurred for a few years, the very nature of such communication was to produce and create a development of correspondence, and so ultimately to make an ample return. As there was no precedent for withdrawing this communication from Penang, it only required, he felt sure, that the facts should be stated in order to obtain the alteration which was so much desired.
  MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, he would endeavour, as far as he could, to answer the observations made by hon. Members, though the Committee would, he trusted, extend some indulgence to him, as much of
  842
  what had been referred to related to his predecessors in Office. In answer to the observations of the hon. Member for the City of London (Mr. Crawford) with reference to the increased charge levied upon letters sent to India, he would remind the Committee that the new contract with the Peninsular and Oriental Company had entailed an additional expense of £300,000 a year upon the country. When he was asked if the new contract was a paying one, he could only say that, while the old contract was conducted at a loss of £82,000 a year, the new contract, even if the new rates returned what was anticipated, would involve a loss of £195,000 a year. He was far from denying that these matters ought to be regulated by considerations apart from a mere question of profit or loss to the revenue. The subject, however, had received a very fair share of attention in the short Session held before Christmas. The increased charge, as far as their present experience had gone, had fully answered their anticipations. At the time that increase was made it was contemplated that the result would be an increase of £37,000 a year to the revenue; but their experience hitherto had shown that something like an increase of £40,000 would be realized by a charge which, if heavier than that formerly imposed, was to a great extent justified by the increase of postal facilities. He admitted that it was an experiment, and that circumstances might occur which would render a change necessary; but, considering the enormous increase which they had to pay for the contract, he thought that it was but right that they should endeavour partly, at all events, to re-coup themselves by the imposition of an extra charge on those availing themselves of postal communication between England and India, The hon. Gentleman also complained of the reduction which was made in favour of the officers of the army and of the soldiers in India. He (Mr. Sclater-Booth) was not sure that the reduction in favour of the officers was altogether justifiable; but it should be remembered that those officers were stationed in India from no inclination of their own, but simply for the purpose of performing certain duties to their country, and the indulgence to them in this respect was something analogous to that which was made in their favour when travelling. The rates charged in the case of soldiers had always been lower than those exacted from the public, and he scarcely thought that any alteration in that

  843
  respect would be desired. The reduction had only been granted to officers of the army within a recent period, and might, perhaps, have arisen, to some extent, from the fact that a reduced rate had long been used in the case of officers of the navy and sailors. If that were so, it only showed how dangerous it was to establish a precedent, and how difficult it was to adhere to the strict path of rectitude after having once departed from it. The hon. Gentleman next complained as to the difference of charge between letters and parcels sent to India and those sent to Australia. He (Mr. Sclater-Booth) was not sufficiently informed on the point to account for the discrepancy alluded to by the hon. Gentleman; but he would cause inquiries to be made into the matter, although it might arise from the greater frequency of the communications in the one case than in the other. He could not, however, help thinking that the hon. Gentleman employed rather a suicidal argument when he said that in consequence of the increased charges those who sent to India so compressed their parcels and reduced the weight of the paper they used that they were enabled to send what they required at a less cost than formerly. He congratulated the hon. Gentleman on the facility with which he and his friends had overcome the difficulties placed in their way; but the hon. Gentleman and his friends could scarcely expect that the old rates would be recurred to unless he could guarantee that the paper formerly used should be again employed and the present compression be discontinued. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Liverpool (Mr. Horsfall) had complained that the West India mail contract had not been thrown open to public competition. He had on several occasions, in answer to questions which had been put to him, stated that the old contract was renewed in consequence of the injury caused to the West India mail steamers by the hurricanes of last autumn. That Company had represented to the Government that an extension of the term, of which two years then remained unexpired, would enable them to raise fresh capital, re-construct their fleet, and carry on their affairs as before; and under the circumstances the Chancellor of the Exchequer, after a great deal of correspondence had passed on the subject, and after taking the advice of the Postmaster General and his very able staff, did not regard the proposal as unreasonable or improper. He was sorry that on a recent occasion he had been
  844
  unable to give his hon. Friend (Mr. T. Baring) a more satisfactory answer with regard to the postal communication with Penang. It was true that Penang was shut out by the terms of the new contract with the Peninsular and Oriental Company from the advantage of the postal communication which it had hitherto enjoyed. But the objection taken to stopping at Penang was a very serious one—that it interfered to a certain extent with the direct communication with China and Japan, and that, if continued, would result in a delay of twenty-four hours. The postages received on account of Penang would not amount to one-half of the cost, but no doubt some arrangement might be come to between the authorities at Penang and Singapore, whereby some of the extra cost might be borne by them. The wants of these colonies had not been lost sight of by the Government, and it was hoped that some means might be adopted whereby the wants of those colonies might be complied with. With regard to the Malta mail, he said that one might, suppose, from the observations of the hon. Baronet opposite (Sir George Bowyer), that Malta, as well as Japan, was cut off from all communication with England. That, however, was not the case, for the Malta mail from Southampton, though not so speedy as could be wished, called at Malta every week, and there was a communication by overland mail viâ Marseilles. There were two mails in addition every week, one through Italy and the other from Marseilles by French steamers. Greater regularity might shortly be expected in the arrival and despatch of those mails. He was sorry that the contract and correspondence with reference to the Cape mails laid on the table had not been earlier in the hands of hon. Members, in which case the objection of the hon. Member for Sunderland (Mr. Candlish) would have been satisfactorily met. It would be found advantageous both to the Government and the colony.
  SIR GEORGE BOWYERwas perfectly aware that there was communication with Malta, but he complained that the communication was excedingly dilatory and uncertain; and a considerable improvement would he effected on the present system if the Government would run a steamer between Malta and Sicily.
  MR. HORSMANadmitted that the hon. Gentleman had given an explanation with respect to Penang with great fairness, but there was no precedent either at home or

  845
  abroad of postal communication being withdrawn from any community to which it had once been granted; and the Resolution of the House providing that the postal contract should be laid on the table for a certain period had practically not been carried into effect by the course which was adopted.
  Mr. T. BARINGurged the claims of Penang to improved postal communication.
  SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLENcalled attention to the inconvenience which arose in respect to answering letters arriving from Australia by the present arrangement for the arrival and departure of the mail steamers, the letters from Australia reaching this country after the mails had left. He had moved for a copy of the memorials from bankers and others presented to the Postmaster General on this subject on the 31st of March last; but the answer given was that the matter was still under consideration. What was wanted was a fortnightly mail to Australia.
  MR. O'BEIRNEasked if the Cape mail contract is to be entered into before hon. Members had an opportunity of seeing what that contract is?
  MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, that the contract had been laid on the table, and would, be hoped, be in the hands of Members to-morrow. The question of a fortnightly mail to Australia was still under the consideration of the Postmaster General. No doubt there was inconvenience, in consequence of only four days being allowed to answer letters to Australia, but it was very difficult to arrange the mails so as to suit all places; but, in the course of another year, perhaps some more convenient arrangement might be devised. The expense of a fortnightly mail to Australia would be very great, and it was by no means clear that all the Australian colonies were of one mind on the subject.
  MR. CRAWFORDcomplained that while the postage of newspapers to Australia was only 1d, it was 2d. to India.
  MR. CHILDERSobserved that the difficulty was to meet the requirements at both ends, consistently with the arrangements for India and China. If another week were allowed for answering letters in this country, the result would be that the letters would arrive at Sydney two days after the homeward mail had left. On the existing basis, he believed that the present time-table was the beat that could be devised. He hoped hon. Members would
  846
  suspend their opinion till the correspondence was in their hands.
  In reply to Mr. Alderman LAWRENCE,
  MR. SCLATER-BOOTHstated that there were two Italian mails from this country to Paris, but only one from Paris to Italy. The Post Office, however, had no power to remedy that inconvenience.
  Vote agreed to.
  House resumed.
  Resolutions to be reported upon Thursday; Committee to sit again Tomorrow.

  TRADES SOCIETIES AND COMBINATIONS OF WORKMAN BILL.
  On Motion of Sir THOMAS FOWELL BUXTON, Bill to repeal and amend the Laws relating to Trade Societies and the Combinations of Workmen, ordered to be brought in by Sir THOMAS FOWELL BUXTON and Mr. RICHARD YOUNG.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 219.]

  NEW ZEALAND ASSEMBLY'S POWERS BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. ADDERLEY, Bill to declare the powers of the General Assembly of New Zealand to abolish any Province in that Colony, or to withdraw from any such Province any part of the Territory thereof, ordered to be brought in by Mr. ADDERLEY and Mr. SCLATER-BOOTH.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 216]

  VACCINATION (IRELAND) BILL.
  On Motion of The Earl of MAYO, Bill to amend the Act of the twenty-sixth and twenty-seventh years of Victoria, chapter filly-two, intituled "An Act to Further Extend and make Compulsory the practice of Vaccination in Ireland," ordered to be brought in by The Earl of MAYO and Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 217.]

  TITHE COMMUTATION, &C. ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. SCLATER-BOOTH, Bill to alter certain provisions in the Acts for the Commutation of Tithes, the Copyhold Acts, and the Acts for the Inclosure, Exchange, and Improvement of Land, and to make provision towards defraying the expense of the Copyhold, Inclosure, and Tithe Office, ordered to be brought in by Mr. SCLATER-BOOTH and Mr. Secretary GATHORNE HARDY.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 218.]
  House adjourned at half after Ono o'clock.