Commons Sitting of 22 November 1867

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—On Public Petitions appointed.
PUBLIC BILLS—Ordered—Libel*; Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Supplemental.*
First Reading—Libel* [3]; Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Supplemental* [4].

CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY OF IRELAND.

  QUESTION.
  MR. MAGUIREasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, What course the Government intend to adopt with reference to granting a Charter for the Catholic University of Ireland?
  THE EARL OF MAYOsaid, the important question of University Education in Ireland was at present engaging the most anxious attention of the Government, and he hoped that when Parliament met at the ordinary time he should be able to state the intentions of the Government on the subject.

BREECH LOADING RIFLES FOR THE ARMY.—QUESTION.
LORD ELCHOasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether the decision of the Committee composed of Officers of the Regular Army and of Civilians, which was appointed to consider and report upon the various arms submitted for trial, in accordance with the terms of the War Office advertisement issued in October last, by which "gunmakers and others" were invited to propose "breech-loading rifles which may replace the present service rifles in future manufacture," will be considered final if not, what are the

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grounds for not accepting as final the decision of a Committee which was invited "to report upon the beat breech-loading rifle for use in the Army;" and, to what further inquiry will these arms be submitted, by whom will it be conducted, and within what period of time may it be expected that a final decision will come to as to the future service rifle?
SIR JOHN PKAINGTON: The Question my noble Friend has put to me is rather a complicated one, but I will answer it as clearly as I can. The Question refers in the first instance to the Committee which was decided on by my right hon. and gallant predecessor (General Peel) shortly before he left office, to determine a competition between breech-loading rifles, which were to be sent in on the terms contained in an advertisement. My right hon. and gallant Friend offered a considerable sum of money by way of prizes for the best of those arms. The Committee of adjudication is composed of five gentlemen—two civilians, Lord Spencer and Mr. Ross, and three military officers—Colonel Fletcher, of the Guards; Captain Rawlins, of the 43rd; and Captain M'Kinnon, of the 23rd Regiment. Colonel Fletcher was the President. My noble Friend asks me whether the decision of that Committee is to be considered as final. Now, the decision of the Committee as regards the prizes to be given cannot be considered as final in respect of the arm to be adopted, for reasons which I will explain. No doubt, at the time my right hon. and gallant Friend determined on appointing the Committee he hoped that its decision would be final, and that the arm which received the first prize would be finally selected as the permanent arm for the British service. I should observe that I find no record in the War Office of what the direct intentions of my right hon. and gallant Friend were; but I imagine that what subsequently occurred was not foreseen by him or anybody else—namely, that nearly 100 arms were sent in for this competition. Out of that number the great majority, or nearly seventy I think, did not comply with the conditions of the advertisement, and consequently the competition for the prizes was limited to a small minority of the arms sent in. The question then arises what course ought the Committee to take in reference to those weapons which are not in conformity with the terms of the advertisement? My noble Friend implies in his Question that the
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Committee was invited "to report upon the best breech-loading rifle for use in the army." These words are not to be found in any public paper. They may have been contained in a letter from my right hon. and gallant Friend. My noble Friend goes on to ask, "To what further inquiry will these arms be submitted?" The arms the Committee have sat on will not be submitted to any further inquiry. The question then arises with reference to the course the Committee is to take with regard to the large number that were not properly admissible; and it may be desirable to have an inquiry as to those seventy weapons, many of which may be of a very valuable character, though they do not comply with the terms of the advertisement. Consequently, I have sought for information in the Office as to what were the precise intentions of my right hon. and gallant Friend, and I find the belief there to be that he intended to have the duty of the Committee confined to deciding as to what arms ought to receive the prizes. Then comes the question how this matter is to be decided. The gentlemen composing the Committee having already sacrificed a great deal of time to an inquiry which turned out to be very laborious, I could not assume that they would be willing to embark in another investigation, or that, in the case of the military officers, the Commander-in-Chief would be willing that they should do so. I believe the present inquiry will not be concluded for some time, and, no doubt, the other would also last a very considerable period. If, however, the gentlemen composing the Committee should be willing to embark in it, and the Commander-in-Chief should give his consent, I believe I could not act with greater advantage to the public service than by committing such an inquiry to gentlemen to whom the Government and the country are already so much indebted. In that case their decision cannot be arrived at in less than a year.
MR. NEWDEGATEasked the right hon. Baronet whether he would have any objection to lay on the table a Return of the number of muskets which had been converted into breech-loaders, and also the number of Enfields available for conversion?
SIR JOHN PAKINGTONbelieved that such a Return had already been laid on the table; but if not, there would be no objection to producing one.

STORM WARNINGS.—QUESTION.
COLONEL SYKESasked the Vice President of the Board of Trade, Whether any further Correspondence on the subject of Storm Warnings with the Scientific Committee of the Royal Society will be presented to the House, and whether they will be resumed?
MR. STEPHEN CAVE: There have been frequent communications on the subject of Storm Warnings during the Recess between the Meteorological Committee of the Royal Society and the Board of Trade. I hope to lay the final arrangements on the table of the House on Monday next. I had therefore better defer answering that part of the Question referring to the resumption of the storm warnings until after that day.

THE REGENT'S PARK—THE ORNAMENTAL WATER.—QUESTION.
MR. THOMAS CHAMBERSsaid, that much apprehension was felt by residents in the neighbourhood of the Regent's Park, as to what was being done there in respect of the Ornamental Water. He wished to ask the noble Lord the First Commissioner of Works for some explanation on the matter, and as to the nature of the alteration which is proposed.
LORD JOHN MANNERS: There is no ground for the anxiety referred to by the hon. and learned Gentleman. What is proposed to be done is this:—The water will be drained off; the mud will be drained and covered with soil that has already been accumulated there for the purpose; it will then be concreted, and the whole length of the lake will be reduced to a uniform depth of about four feet. By that means we hope to prevent a recurrence of the awful calamity of last winter.

ABYSSINIAN EXPEDITION—PURCHASE OF MULES.—QUESTION.
CAPTAIN VIVIANasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether any Correspondence has taken place between the War Office and the Foreign Office relating to the conduct of the British Consul at Barcelona with regard to the purchase of mules for the Abyssinian Expedition; and, if so, whether he will lay that Correspondence upon the table of the House?
LORD STANLEYreplied, that a correspondence on the subject had taken place
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between the War Office and the Foreign Office, and between the Foreign Office and the British Consul at Barcelona. It was not completed, and he was not at present in a position to say whether or not there was any objection to its production.

Order of the Day, for a Committee on Motion for Supply, read.

STATE OF HONDURAS—TREATY OF GUARANTEE.—QUESTION.
MR. AYRTONsaid, that before the Speaker left the Chair he was anxious to obtain from the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs some explanation respecting a document issued a few days ago in the City of London by Senor Don Carlos Gutierrez, Honduras Minister in London, inviting Her Majesty's subjects to subscribe to a loan of £1,000,000 to the State of Honduras, it being alleged that a portion of such loan was to be applied to the construction of an inter-oceanic railway from Puerto Caballos, on the Atlantic, to the say of Fonseca, on the Pacific. The prospectus in question stated that this railway would, when complete, be about 230 miles in length, but that the present loan is to be applied to the construction of the first section of the railway, from Puerto Caballos to Santiago, a distance, he believed, of about forty miles. Moreover, the prospectus contained the following announcement:—
"The new Treaty between Honduras and Great Britain declares that 'In order to secure the construction and permanence of the route or road herein contemplated, and also to secure for the benefit of mankind the uninterrupted advantages of such communication from sea to sea, Her Britannic Majesty recognises the rights of sovereignty and property of Honduras, in and over the line of the said road, and for the same reason guarantees' positively and efficaciously the entire neutrality of the same; and when the proposed road shall have been completed Her Britannic Majesty equally engages, in conjunction with the Republic of Honduras, to protect the same from interruption, seizure, or unjust confiscation, from whatsoever quarter the attempt may proceed.'"
Now, if such a treaty had really been entered into by Her Majesty's Government, it would involve this country in very serious responsibilities; for though the prospectus only spoke of the raising of £1,000,000, yet if that sum were to be applied to the construction of only forty miles of the line, it might be inferred that the cost of the whole 230 miles would be

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immense. Indeed, he believed that this section was the only portion of the line which, could be constructed at a moderate expense, as there was a large range of hills running through the State of Honduras which would render the construction of the other sections an undertaking of much difficulty. If, however, the line could be constructed at a moderate expense, it would seem that for that ostensible object a large loan was to be obtained in this country, and the character and credit of the whole transaction supported by a Minister accredited to Her Majesty's Government, quoting a new treaty alleged to have been entered into. Persons reading the prospectus would naturally believe that the scheme had been communicated to the noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, and that he had concurred, or tacitly acquiesced in it. A treaty seriously affecting the finances of this country ought to be laid upon the table of that House, and it was even doubtful whether it could be carried into effect without the sanction of an Act of Parliament. It was possible, however, that this Minister might be drawing more upon his imagination than upon his diplomatic relations with the noble Lord, for he had discovered that a treaty was entered into between Her Majesty's Government and the State of Honduras as long ago as the year 1856, for guaranteeing certain rights and privileges to the Honduras Oceanic Railway Company. But that treaty had sole reference to a project brought forward by that Company, and only guaranteed the immunities he had just referred to on conditions that the railway should be completed from sea to sea by that Company, and that the Company should in exchange concede certain rights and privileges to British subjects. He believed that the Company did not succeed in its undertaking, and therefore that treaty had fallen practically to the ground. At all events, it could have no effect unless the Company carried out the whole line, and gave effect to the stipulations. There was obviously an immense difference between an independent Company engaging to construct the whole line and the Honduras Government taking the matter into its own hands, because the Company furnished in itself a guarantee for a certain amount of neutrality; whereas if the railway were made by the State there would be no such guarantee. He would therefore ask the noble Lord whether any treaty had been recently concluded be-
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tween Her Majesty's Government and the State of Honduras, and whether anything of the sort were contemplated? He trusted that the noble Lord would not be so inconsiderate as to pledge the credit of this country alone to a guarantee of neutrality in reference to anything connected with Central America. Such a proceeding might grievously offend the sensibilities of a great nation nearer to Central America than ourselves, and might provoke antagonism and opposition on the part of other great commercial nations and maritime Powers. If any step were taken at all it should be in conjunction with all the great maritime Powers of the world. Care should be likewise taken that a proper route should be selected; for every two or three years the public were informed that a beautiful route from ocean to ocean had been discovered, and that a line could be constructed at a very trifling expense. Several years ago Her Majesty's Government had acted upon the faith of a representation that a man had been to a certain point in Central America, and had stood on a hill from which he could see the Atlantic, and that, after walking a little way into a wood, he came to a place whence he could see the Pacific. A commission was sent out to verify the accuracy of this story, and they ascertained that the man, after gazing on the Atlantic, took a walk through a wood, and, turning in the direction of the spot he had formerly occupied, of course he saw the Atlantic again. Indeed, it was discovered that there was an impassable range of mountains between that spot and the Pacific. Several Englishmen unfortunately lost their lives in detecting that absurdity. He hoped, therefore, that nothing would be done in Central America until the best route was chosen by practical men. If the statements in the prospectus were correct, he should like to receive some information as to the resources of Honduras, its income and expenditure, and the value of the exports of wood referred to in the prospectus. He would add that he had no personal interest whatever in the loan, and that he had merely brought the matter forward in the interest of the public. He begged to ask the Secretary of State, Whether any new Treaty of Guarantee has been entered into with the States of Honduras, and what are the resources of that State?
LORD STANLEY: The answer which I have to give to the fair and opportune Question of the hon. and learned Gentle-

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man will be extremely short, and I hope the House will consider it satisfactory. No new treaty or guarantee has been entered into with the State of Honduras, and as far as I am concerned there is no intention of concluding any such treaty. It is, I think, quite evident that the treaty referred to in the document which has been quoted by the hon. and learned Gentleman is the Treaty of the 27th August, 1856. I do not understand how that can be termed a new treaty; and I notice that in the document referred to by the hon. and learned Member no mention is made of a fact which has a somewhat important bearing on the obligations involved in that guarantee. The additional Article of the Treaty of 1856 stipulates that, in consideration of various concessions therein enumerated—
"Her Britannic Majesty recognizes the rights of sovereignty and property of Honduras in and over the line of the said road,"—
namely, the road to be constructed by the Honduras Oceanic Railway Company—
"And for the same reason guarantees, positively and efficaciously, the entire neutrality of the same as long as Great Britain shall enjoy the privileges conceded to it in the preceding section of this Article. And when the proposed road shall have been completed, Her Britannic Majesty equally engages, in conjunction with the Republic of Honduras, to protect the same from interruption, seizure, or unjust confiscation, from whatsoever quarter the attempt may proceed.
But then the treaty goes on to say that this protection and guarantee are granted conditionally and may be withdrawn at six months' notice if any regulations be made contrary to the spirit of the treaty. That is the only undertaking into which the British Government has entered, and no new one is contemplated.
Committee on Motion, "That a Supply be granted to Her Majesty."
QUEEN'S SPEECH referred; Motion considered.
(In the Committee.)
QUEEN'S SPEECH read.
Resolved, "That a Supply be granted to Her Majesty."
Resolution to be reported on Monday next.

ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
On Motion, "That the House, at its rising, do adjourn to Monday next:"—
ARRESTS OF ENGLISHMEN IN FRANCE.

  QUESTION.
  MR. DARBY GRIFFITHrose to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether, on the 4th day of November, at the Calais Railway Station, a gentleman named Coventry was threatened with arrest by a French policeman for not being provided with a passport; and that, on the English Consul coming to his assistance, he was told by the policeman that he could arrest the Consul himself on suspicion, for not having a passport, if he chose? While England had, in all past time, been noted for her love of personal liberty, it had been rather the fashion with our friends on the other side of the Channel to prefer equality, and to sacrifice personal liberty to it; and this was so, whether under the old Royal dynasty, after the restoration of the Bourbons, or under a Republic, or the former or present Empire, Some few years ago the present Emperor abolished the use of passports in the case of English travellers in France; but if this liberty were to be interfered with arbitrarily the privilege would cease to be an advantage, and would, in fact, be converted into a trap. The other day there appeared in The Times newspaper a statement, signed "H. W. C.," to the effect that the writer was standing at the Calais Station, about to leave by the night train, when he was called on by a porter to interpret for an Italian; immediately after doing which a French detective demanded his passport, and on his replying that a passport was not necessary in the case of an Englishman, the Frenchman said, "You are the very man I have been looking for; you are not an Englishman, but an Italian." The writer, therefore, called the porter who had asked his assistance as interpreter, and who confirmed his statement of what had happened; but the policeman, in a loud voice, and with sneers and taunts, said he was a thief and a spy; that the police knew him well, and that he was a prisoner. At this juncture the Vice Consul came forward, and assisted the gentleman in getting out of the clutches of the police, which he did with some difficulty. The writer further said that the policeman declared not only that he could arrest the gentleman, but that he could arrest the Consul himself, on suspicion, for being without a passport. He (Mr. Darby Griffith) had written to the Vice Consul, who confirmed the statements of Mr. Coventry, especially as to the boast of

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  the sergent de ville that he would arrest the Consul himself on suspicion, unless he were specially protected by a passport. The noble Lord the Foreign Secretary would, perhaps, concur in the view that it was undesirable an officer with so little discretion should be stationed at such an important place as Calais. He trusted that the noble Lord would not allow a case of this sort to pass without a thorough apology being rendered, and sergens de ville taught that they were not in this way to insult Englishmen. This case, however, was by no means the only recent one in which Englishmen had suffered annoyance, detention, and loss. His attention had been called to several occurrences of a more outrageous nature. A few weeks ago the secretary of an English Bishop went to Paris to make inquiries as to the conduct and operations of the small markets. He soon perceived that wherever he went he was followed about by a well-dressed man; and on the second morning, on getting out of an omnibus at the door of his hotel, he was seized, accused of stealing cigars, and taken to a police-station. The secretary wrote to the Embassy, but his letter was not delivered until the following morning, when two Attachés went to the station and liberated him. The next case he would mention was one of a still more despotic character. A clergyman connected with a parish in the North of England, while taking some refreshment on the premises of a marchand de vins, was seized, and, although he gave his name and address, was conveyed to a police-station. He wrote to the Embassy, but his letter was not delivered for three days. An Attaché then called upon the clergyman, but could do nothing for him, because the rev. gentleman was not known personally to any one at the Embassy—which was not at all surprising. Ten days were taken to correspond with the references which the rev. gentleman gave in his own parish. All that time he was kept in the lock-up and treated as a prisoner awaiting his trial, so that he was thirteen days a prisoner for no fault except that of being personally unknown to any one at the Embassy. There was also the case of another Englishman, who signed his name "H—d," who was detained twenty-four hours, and then liberated with an apology. He hoped to hear the course taken, by the noble Lord in all these cases.
  LORD STANLEY: In consequence of the notice of the hon. Member, I called on the Vice Consul at Calais for a Report. It appears that Mr. Coventry was seen and heard speaking in Italian to an Italian fellow-passenger. This was an individual whom, for some reason or other, the French police considered they had cause to suspect. Mr. Coventry, who had been seen in company with him, was asked for his passport. He answered that he was an Englishman, and was entitled to travel without a passport. He was then asked whether he could produce any papers which could prove his nationality. I ought to mention that the privilege of dispensing with passports is confined to British subjects, and is often claimed by persons not entitled to it. It is not therefore unreasonable or improper that when any difficulty arises British subjects should be called upon to give some evidence of their nationality. Mr. Coventry appears to have given an answer—whether a sharp one or not I do not know—which provoked the police agent, and something in the nature of a dispute ensued. The Vice Consul interfered, and then the police-officer, having somewhat lost his temper, did use towards the Vice Consul an expression which was certainly not courteous or consistent with the respect due to his official position. It does not appear that Mr. Coventry was detained, and therefore the person most aggrieved in the matter is the Vice Consul. That gentleman, however, has written to me that the objectionable words were used by the police-officer in the heat of a dispute which had arisen with another person; that the police-officer is in general remarkably civil in his language and conduct; and that, though large numbers of English people have passed through Calais lately, he is not aware of any complaint having been made before against this person. Under these circumstances, an explanation and apologies having been offered to him, the Vice Consul does not desire to take any further notice of the matter. That is a very reasonable and proper conclusion, and I do not therefore mean to make any representation on the subject. With regard to the other cases mentioned by the hon. Gentleman, as he gave no notice respecting them, I must ask him to give me the names and particulars, so that I may make inquiry.
  Motion agreed to,

  LIBEL BILL.
  On Motion of Sir COLMAN O'LOGHLEN, Bill to amend the Law of Libel, ordered to be brought in by Sir COLMAN O'LOGHLEN and Mr. BAINES.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 3.]

  DRAINAGE AND IMPROVEMENT OF LANDS (IRELAND) SUPPLEMENTAL BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. HUNT, Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under "The Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Act, 1863," and the Acts amending the same, ordered to be brought in by Mr. HUNT and The Earl of MAYO.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 4.]

  PUBLIC PETITIONS.
  Select Committee appointed, "to whom shall be referred all Petitions presented to the House, with the exception of such as complain of undue Returns, or relate to Private Bills; and that such Committee do classify and prepare abstracts of the same, in such form and manner as shall appear to them best suited to convey to the House all requisite information respecting their contents, and do report the same from time to time to the House; and that such Reports do in all cases set forth the number of signatures to each Petition:—And that such Committee have power to direct the printing in extenso of such Petitions, or of such parts of Petitions, as shall appear to require it:—And that such Committee have power to report their opinion and observations thereupon to the House:"—Mr. CHARLES FORSTER, Mr. BONHAM - CARTER, Major GAVIN, Sir COLMAN O'LOGHLEN, Mr. HASTINGS RUSSELL, Mr. Alderman SALOMONS, Mr. OWEN STANLEY, Mr. KINNAIRD, Mr. REGINALD YORKE, Mr. ROBERT TORRENS, Mr. M'LAGAN, Mr. SANDFORD, Sir CHARLES RUSSELL, Mr. DE GREY, and Mr. HENRY EDWARD SURTEES: Three to be the quorum.
  House adjourned at half past Five o'clock, till Monday next.