Commons Sitting of 10 May 1867

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE.—On Factory Acts Extension and Hours of Labour Regulation nominated.
SUPPLY—considered in Committee—Committee [R.P.]
PUBLIC BILLS—Ordered—Courts of Law Officers (Ireland).*
Committee — Court of Chancery (Ireland) [47] [R.P.]; Charitable Donations and Bequests (Ireland) [49] [R.P.]

ARMY ESTIMATES.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, in conquence of an appeal made to him by the noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire (the Marquess of Hartington), he should not move the Supplementary Vote of which he had given notice that evening, but should postpone doing so until he had laid the Bills, which were in preparation, on the table of the House. Although it was of the greatest importance that the Estimate should as soon as possible receive the sanction of the House, he had thought it advisable to yield to the representations of the noble Lord, and he accordingly had consented to its postponement. He would now give notice that on Monday next he should bring in a Bill for limiting the period of Enlistment in Her Majesty's Army, another Bill for consolidating and amending the Acts relating to the late East India Company's and other Pensioners, and the third Bill to form a Reserve of the men in the Militia to join Her Majesty's Army in time of war.
  COLONEL NORTHsaid, he was surprised to hear that so important a matter had been postponed, as it was impossible, under present circumstances, to proceed with the recruiting. ["Order!"] He would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, whether the Government would name an early day when they would proceed with this important question?
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he could only repeat that he had given notice of his intention of introducing these Bills on Monday evening next. He hoped that the Bills would be in the hands of Members on Tuesday morning. Of course, the time when he could move the Vote must depend upon the course of public business; but he hoped to be able to do so on Thursday next.
  MR. DARBY GRIFFITHsaid, he wished to know if it was not intended to take the Army Estimates that night?
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONreplied in the negative.

IRELAND—PAWNBROKING SYSTEM IN DUBLIN.—QUESTION.
MR. GREGORYsaid, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether Dr. Hancock, who in February 1866 was appointed Commissioner to inquire into the Pawnbroking System in Dublin, has reported, and when the Report will be laid before the House?
LORD NAAS, in reply, said, he had received a communication from Dr. Hancock, in which he stated that the postponement in the production of the Report had taken place in consequence of necessary delay. He had reason, however, to believe that the Report would be ready in June.

METROPOLIS—ADMISSION OF CABS TO HYDE PARK.—QUESTION.
MR. O'BEIRNEsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether, as the public have been permitted to drive into Hyde Park in cabs and other public vehicles plying for hire, he saw any objection to permitting Members of Parliament, when proceeding to the discharge of their public duties, to drive over Constitution Hill to the House of Commons?
MR. WALPOLE: This Question, Sir, is founded on the erroneous statement that cabs may ply for hire in Hyde Park. No such permission has ever been granted, though I may state, parenthetically, I believe that on Monday last some messengers did go in cabs to Sir Richard Mayne when he was in the Park; but, with that exception, cabs have not been permitted to go into the Park. As the question rests on that erroneous allegation, I hope the hon. Member will see that there is no ground for making any alteration in the regulations now existing.
MR. O'BEIRNEsaid, he would beg to give notice that it was his intention to call the attention of the House to the subject on the earliest convenient opportunity.
MR. BRIGHT: I wish, Sir, to put a question on this subject; but I do not know whether I have any right to ask the question of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Walpole), though perhaps he will

371
explain his position to the House. I wish to know whether it is the intention of the Government to go on with the Royal Parks Bill, after the discussion which took place last night in "another place," and after the expression of opinion in this House. I thought, perhaps, the Government might not think it necessary to proceed further with it.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: We shall always give due notice of any business we intend to bring forward. The Bill does not stand upon the paper for to-night, nor is it probable that any progress can be made with it on Monday.

INSPECTORS OF WEIGHTS AND MEASURES.—QUESTION.
MR. WHALLEYsaid, with reference to the employment of Police officers in the inspection of Weights and Measures under the Act 5 & 6 Will. IV. c. 63, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether the same is in his opinion in accordance with the provisions of the Police Act 2 & 3 Vict. c. 93, s. 10, and in any case whether the same is expedient, and whether or not numerous complaints have or have not been received by him in reference to the conduct of the Police so employed?
MR. WALPOLEsaid, that under the Act of Will. IV. inspectors were appointed by the Court of Quarter Sessions; but under the statute of Victoria, to which that question also referred, it was provided that none of the county constabulary could be employed for hire or gain in connection with the first Act. Therefore, if any police-officer had been employed for hire or gain, contrary to the provisions of the second Act, his impression was that such a proceeding ought not to have been allowed; but no complaint upon the matter had reached the Home Office.
LORD EUSTACE CECILsaid, he wished to inquire when the promised Bill in reference to Weights and Measures will be introduced?
MR. WALPOLEsaid, that instructions had been given to prepare a Bill, and he hoped it was nearly ready.

INDIA MAIL SERVICE.—QUESTION.
MR. CRAWFORDsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, If the present weekly Postal communication with India by way of Bombay is to be discon-
372
tinued after the despatch of the mail from London on the 26th of May; and, if he will lay upon the table, Copy of the Advertisements and Forms of Tender for the New Postal Services to India and China recently issued from the Post Office?
MR. HUNT: Sir, the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company having given notice of their intention to withdraw the extra steamers running between Suez and Bombay, the Indian service, until further notice, will, after the despatch of the mail from London on the 26th of May, be, as formerly, twice a month to Bombay, and twice a mouth to Calcutta. If the hon. Gentleman would move for the Papers I shall have no objection to lay them upon the table.

CLIFTON-ON-DUNSMORE PLOT RENTS.

  QUESTION.
  SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, he wished to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council, Upon what grounds certain charitable monies called Plot Rents, which for more than 200 years have been expended for the benefit of the deserving poor inhabitants of the parish of Clifton-on-Dunsmore, in the county of Warwick, have been applied at the instance of the Charity Commissioners, and contrary to the wishes of the ratepayers and inhabitants, in aid of church rates for the repairs, &c. of the parish church, and also upon what grounds the Charity Commissioners nominated four persons as Trustees of the said charity, not one of whom was possessed of any real property in the said parish?
  LORD ROBERT MONTAGUsaid, in reply, that an order was made by the Commissioners, on the application of the proper persons, and in exercise of the authority vested in them by 23 & 24 Vict. c. 137. All the proper notices had been given and the formalities observed. Some objections were raised, and were duly heard; but there was no appeal against the order issued, and it therefore took effect.
  SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, that the noble Lord had not answered his question. His Question was, whether any portion of these rents had been expended contrary to the wishes of the ratepayers in aid of church rates for the repair of the parish church?
  LORD ROBERT MONTAGUsaid, he I could not say whether it was contrary to the wish of the ratepayers; but they did not appeal against the order.

NATIONAL DEBT BILL.—QUESTION.
MR. H. B. SHERIDANsaid, be would beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether the National Debt Bill, which stands for Monday next, is likely to be taken on that day, or whether he will fix some other day for its discussion?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, it will not be possible to bring on the National Debt Bill on Monday. On that day I propose to commence business with the Scotch Reform Bill, and after that I think it expedient that we should go into Committee again on the English Bill. But it is highly important to the public interest that the National Debt Bill should not be further delayed, and therefore I intend to fix definitely Thursday next for that Bill.

TENANTS IMPROVEMENTS (IRELAND) BILL.—QUESTION.
THE O'DONOGHUEsaid, he rose to ask, When the Chief Secretary for Ireland intends proceeding with the Tenants Improvements (Ireland) Bill?
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. CHATTERTON)said, in reply, that he was not in possession of the views of the noble Lord; but if notice were given of the Question, he would endeavour to procure an answer on the subject.

ARMY ORGANIZATION.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  CAPTAIN VIVIANsaid, he would beg to appeal to the right hon. Member for Inverness-shire (Mr. Henry Baillie) not to proceed with the Motion of which he had given notice, for a Select Committee to inquire into the management and organization of the War Department. The question was a very important one, and would involve considerable discussion. He had asked the Secretary of State for War for the Report of the Committee that sat last year on the Transport of the Army, and as that inquiry was most directly involved in, and connected with, the subject proposed to be brought forward by the right hon. Gentleman, he thought it would be impossible to debate the question properly till that Report was upon the table of the House.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he must join in the appeal, as it was almost impossible to conduct the inquiry profitably
  374
  so late in the Session. The Report referred to by his hon. and gallant Friend (Captain Vivian) would seriously affect not less than seven of the twelve branches of the War Department; and without expressing any opinion as to the desirability of the investigation at some future time, it would be almost impossible this Session to carry through an inquiry which, to have any effect, must be very extensive.
  MR. HENRY BAILLIEsaid, he was quite ignorant as to the nature of the Report alluded to, or of the departments to which it related, and before he made any reply to the appeal he wished to know whether the Report had any reference to the Ordnance Department, which the question of which he had given notice affected particularly. He did not like to take any course which should seem discourteous to the right hon. Gentleman, and he should therefore be very much disposed to accede to his suggestion.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, that the seven branches of the War Office to which the Report more or less directly referred, were the Ordnance, Stores, Commissariat, Purveyors, Barracks, Contracts, and Accountant General.
  GENERAL DUNNEsaid, he thought it advisable that his right hon. Friend should not proceed with his Motion that night; but, at the same time, it should be remembered that every nation in Europe was now re-organizing its military system, and there was no country which wanted military re-organization more than this.
  MR. HERBERTsaid, he rose to call attention to the recruiting orders of Her Majesty's regiment of Foot Guards.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, the Notice stood for the Army Estimates, and as those Estimates were not coming on he was not prepared to meet the hon. Member's Motion.

COURT OF CHANCERY (IRELAND) BILL.
(Solicitor General for Ireland, Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.)
COURT OF CHANCERY (IRELAND) BILL.

  [BILL 47.] COMMITTEE.
  Bill considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  COLONEL FRENCHhoped further consideration of it would be postponed, as no Member of the Bar connected with Ireland was present on his side of the House.
  MR. ESMONDEmoved that the Chairman report Progress.
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. CHATTERTON)said, he must oppose the Motion. It was the duty of hon. Members to be present in their places. The Bill was one upon which learned Gentlemen on both sides of the House were agreed, and was almost precisely in the same terms as the Bill introduced by his learned Friends the late Attorney General and Solicitor General for Ireland. He should have the greatest pleasure in giving way but for the inconvenience which would result from the postponement, as the Committee had to get through all the material part of the Bill. Besides, he had public duties to discharge which required him in another place, and he must really press hon. Members to allow the Bill to be proceeded with.
  MR. KNATCHBULL-HUGESSENinquired whether any arrangement had been come to with those hon. and learned Members, now on the Opposition side of the House, who were more directly concerned in the provisions of the measure?
  MR. GLADSTONE: There is not the least doubt that, theoretically, all the 658 Members of this House ought to be on these Benches during every moment which the House sits; therefore, my hon. and learned Friends the late Attorney General and Solicitor General for Ireland are responsible for not being in attendance. At the same time, there is a usage of the House which though oftentimes inconvenient cannot be altogether disregarded—that is, when owing to circumstances wholly unexpected and unforeseen, measures are brought on, in regard to which hon. Gentlemen who are entitled to be heard are excusably absent, it is not the practice to proceed with them. I quite sympathize with the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland. I know he is justifiably anxious to go on with the Bill, and I think it possible my hon. and learned Friend may be disposed to allow it to be proceeded with provided there is an understanding that it shall be taken as far as can be done without exciting active opposition; but that if any points arise or which give rise to discussion, those Gentlemen who are now absent shall have the full opportunity of raising their objections at a future stage.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: There is no doubt that, in point of Parliamentary practice, my right hon. Friend the Attorney General for Ireland is right in asking the House to proceed.
  376
  But there is such a thing as Parliamentary courtesy, without which we could not carry on our affairs. If my right hon. Friend had been longer in the House he would not in this case consider it necessary to observe the strict rules of the House. If there was a clear understanding between the Law Officers of the late Government and the right hon. Gentleman, the latter would not, of course, make any difficulty about the matter. It would be very unfortunate if any misconception should arise; and I am sure my right hon. and learned Friend will accede to the wishes of the House. At the same time the state of public business renders it desirable to proceed with the Bill, if possible.
  MR. SERJEANT BARRYasked the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland not to persevere with the Bill that evening. Had he known the Bill would have been brought on so early he should have communicated with his learned Friends, who would then have attended. The right hon. Member for Portarlington (Mr. Lawson), who was absent, had an Amendment on the Bill, as also had the hon. and learned Member for Clare (Sir Colman O'Loghlen). Under all the circumstances, be hoped the right hon. and learned Gentleman would not press the Bill to Committee.
  MR. ESMONDEthought the better course would be to postpone the Bill, as there would be a difficulty in understanding its provisions in the absence of the hon. and learned Gentlemen who were familiar with the subject.
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. CHATTERTON)said, he was perfectly in the hands of hon. Gentlemen opposite. He thought it quite right to state there was no understanding between him and the late Attorney General and Solicitor General for Ireland. He was quite prepared to adopt the course proposed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Lancashire.
  MR. DARBY GRIFFITHthought the loss of the evening must be ascribed to the unfortunate abruptness of the Secretary at War in giving notice of the Supplementary Army Estimates for that evening, and then withdrawing it.
  House resumed.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Thursday next.

CHARITABLE DONATIONS AND BEQUESTS (IRELAND) BILL.
(Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland, Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.)
CHARITABLE DONATIONS AND BEQUESTS (IRELAND) BILL.

  [BILL 49.] COMMITTEE.
  Bill considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  MR. SERJEANT BARRYobjected to proceeding with this Bill in the present state of the House.
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. CHATTERTON)said, he was entirely in the hands of the House.
  House resumed.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Thursday next.

  COURTS OF LAW OFFICERS (IRELAND) BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND, Bill to regulate the Officers of the Courts of Chancery and Common Law in Ireland, ordered to be brought in by Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND and Lord NAAS.
  House adjourned at a quarter after Five o'clock, till Monday next.