Commons Sitting of 22 July 1867

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBER SWORN—Sir John Burgess Karslake, knight, for Andover.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Report—On Military Reserve Funds [No. 453].
SUPPLY—considered in Committee—CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.
Resolutions [July 19] reported.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Representation of the People (Scotland)* [146]; Meetings in

1873
Royal Parks [134]; Customs Revenue* [238]; Inland Revenue* [239]; Customs Duties (Isle of Man)* [253]; Turnpike Acts Continuance [232]; Sewage* [260]; War Department Stores* (Lords) [255]; Consecration and Ordination Fees* [256]; District Prothonotaries, Court of Common Pleas, County Palatine of Lancaster (Lords)* [241].
Committee — County Courts Acts Amendment (Lords) [212] [R.P.]; District Lunatic Asylums Officers (Ireland) [242]; County General Assessment (Scotland)* [225]; Poor Law Board, &c.* [193]; Canongate Annuity Tax (Edinburgh)* [210]; Dundee Provisional Orders Confirmation* [257]; Morro Velho Marriages (Lords)* [265] [R.P]; Wexford Grand Jury* [264].
Report—District Lunatic Asylums Officers (Ireland) [242 & 269]; County General Assessment (Scotland)* [225 & 270]; Poor Law Board, &c.* [193 & 271]; Canongate Annuity Tax (Edinburgh)* [210]; Dundee Provisional Orders Confirmation* [257]; Wexford Grand Jury* [264].
Considered as amended—Industrial and Provident Societies* [198].
Third Reading—Courts of Law Officers (Ireland) [248].
Withdrawn — Writs Registration (Scotland)* [150]; Tenants Improvements (Ireland)* [18]; Land Improvement and Leasing (Ireland)* [30]; Murder Law Amendment* [14]; Sea Fisheries* [222]; Admiralty Jurisdiction* [28]; Petit Juries (Ireland)* (re-comm.) [158]; Intestates Widows and Children (Scotland)* [261]; Intestates Widows and Children (Lords)* [230]; Landed Property Improvement and Leasing (Ireland)* [150]; Land Tenure (Ireland)* [12]; Turnpike Trusts* (re-comm.) [189]; West India Bishops and Clergy* [126]; Ecclesiastical Titles Act Repeal* [84].

TURKEY—THE CRETAN INSURRECTION—APPOINTMENT OF SIR WILLIAM WISEMAN.—QUESTION.
MR. J. STUART MILLsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether he will undertake that, unless in the event of a complete cessation of hostilities in Crete, Sir William Wiseman will not proceed to Turkey or take up his appointment until the House has had an apportunity of expressing an opinion on the subject?
LORD STANLEYsaid, he had no objection to give the House the intimation to which the Question of the hon. Gentleman pointed. Indeed, he thought he had implied as much in the answer he had given on the same subject a few nights before.

ARMY—INCREASE OF PAY.—QUESTION.
CAPTAIN VIVIANsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War,
1874
Why the additional penny a day granted to Soldiers who re-enlist after twelve years' service under the Limited Act is withheld from those Soldiers who entered the service before the Limited Enlistment Act, and who have served for a longer period than twelve years?
SIR JOHN PAKINGTONreplied, that the Question was put under a misapprehension. The penny a day was not to be withheld from the soldiers to whom the hon. Gentleman referred. It was, on the contrary, intended to give it to them.

POOR LAW BILL.—QUESTION.
MR. T. B. POTTERsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary to the Poor Law Board, Whether, considering the advanced period of the Session, it is his intention to proceed with those Clauses in the Poor Law Bill which are likely to give rise to protracted discussion?
MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, he should not at this period of the Session wish to proceed with those clauses of the Bill which were likely to give rise to protracted discussion. He therefore proposed to go into Committee on the Bill pro formâ that evening, and to omit from it clauses from 4 to 10 inclusive, 23 to 25 inclusive, 33 to 41 inclusive, and 46 to 48 inclusive. There was also a series of clauses referring to the election of guardians, which he proposed to retain; but he should not like to proceed with them if he thought they would lead to anything like lengthened debate. He did not, however, anticipate that such would be the case.

IRELAND—THE TYRONE MAGISTRATES.

  QUESTION.
  COLONEL STUART KNOXsaid, he would beg to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether, in the opinion of the Government, the Report of the Commissioners who were appointed to inquire into the conduct of the Tyrone Magistrates has completely exonerated them from the charge of partiality, favour, and affection in the execution of their duty on the occasion referred to by Judge Keogh at the Lent Assizes at Omagh; and, as the Commissioners report that the Magistrates appear to have been misled by instructions issued by former Governments, what course will now be taken in regard to these instructions?
  LORD NAASreplied that the Commissioners made in their Report the following statement:—
  "We think the justices were in error in dismissing the charge against the other defendants in the first summons; that they should have returned them for trial for the offences charged; but we think that in making their decision, they acted to the best of their judgment, and were not influenced by improper motives. They stated to us that it was with regret they felt that they had not the power to return both parties for trial."
  He thought, after the perusal of that Report and the evidence given, no one could come to any other conclusion than that the magistrates acted in the case in no degree from feelings of partiality or favour, and so far as he was concerned he entirely concurred in the opinion of the Commissioners. With respect to the second portion of the Question, as to the code of instructions issued to the magistrates, he must say that he had always felt a great objection to the issue, by the executive Government, of instructions to magistrates as to the mode in which they ought to perform a particular portion of their duties. The best code was, in his opinion, the statute book read by the light of their own good sense and experience, and the Government were therefore considering whether it would not be advisable to withdraw the code of instructions in question, as well as other codes sent to magistrates. He hoped, he might add, that the Government would be able to come to a decision favourable to that course.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

  STATEMENT.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he mentioned last week that it would probably be convenient to the House for him to give some indication of the probable course of business for the remainder of the Session, and with the permission of the House he would call attention to the present state of the Paper. He found that there were set down on the Paper fifty Government Bills. With nine of these—the Murder Law Amendment Bill, the Writs Registration (Scotland) Bill, the Tenants Improvements (Ireland) Bill, the Landed Property Improvement and Leasing (Ireland) Bill, the Admiralty Jurisdiction Bill, the Petit Juries (Ireland) Bill, the Intestates Widow and Children (Scotland) Bill, the Sea Fisheries Bill, and the Office of the Judge of the Court of Admiralty Bill—it was not proposed to proceed.
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  That would leave forty-one Government Bills still remaining, and of these, eleven having come down from the Lords, it was not intended to proceed with till the latest period of the Session. Thirty would still remain, and of those thirty, sixteen stood for second reading, thirteen for Committee, and one for third reading. Among the Bills which might probably lead to some discussion were the Factory Acts Extension Bill, the Hours of Labour Regulation Bill, the Parliamentary Elections Bill, the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Bill, the Turnpike Acts Continuance Bill, the Public Health Scotland Bill, and the two military Bills relating to the Army of Reserve and the Militia Reserve. The House would now be able to form a tolerable idea of the chance of getting through the business which was to be proceeded with, and he trusted that the Government would be able to carry the measures which he had not announced as to be abandoned. That must, however, depend on a variety of circumstances, over which he had no control at present. To night the second reading of the Scotch Reform Bill, and the second reading of the Meetings in Royal Parks Bill would be taken, and to-morrow there would be a Morning Sitting at twelve o'clock, with the object of giving to the hon. Member for Galway (Mr. Gregory) an opportunity to bring forward his Motion respecting the Tornado case. He had also placed on the Paper for to-morrow the Bill of the hon. Member for Finsbury (the Artizans' Dwellings Bill) and the Irish Tramways Bill; but, with respect to the former Bill, he had heard since he entered the House that there was some possibility of this Bill not coming forward, in consequence of the hon. Member having given a Notice not in conformity with the adoption of such a course. He trusted, however, that the hon. Member would have an opportunity of bringing forward the measure, which was an excellent one. On Thursday the Military and Naval Estimates would be taken, and on Monday next the Vote for the British Museum. On the Friday following, if they had an opportunity, they intended to bring forward the Vote for the Packet Service, and on the subsequent Monday the Education Votes. It would be hardly convenient to trouble the House with any further arrangements at present; but he hoped he had given a tolerably accurate notion of the position in which public business stood.
  Moved, "That the Order of the Day for the Second Reading of the Murder Law Amendment Bill be discharged." — (Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
  SIR ROUNDELL PALMERsaid, that as he understood from the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, the Government did not intend to go on with the Bill for altering the Admiralty jurisdiction, or the Bill from the Lords referring to the Office of the Judge of the Admiralty, Divorce, and Probate Courts, he would take the liberty of asking the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether the latter subject had been considered by the Government, and whether the Government would be prepared to issue a Royal Commission, with a view to inquiry into that general subject? If that were so, as he hoped it was likely to be, of course he should not be obliged to submit any Motion to the House; but if it were not so, he should be compelled to submit a Motion.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the hon. and learned Gentleman would perhaps put his Question on Thursday.
  MR. M'CULLAGH TORRENSsaid, that the notice respecting a change in his Bill had been given, not by him, but by another hon. Member, and he had endeavoured to induce the hon. Member to waive it, in order to facilitate the passage of the Bill.

METROPOLITAN IMPROVEMENTS BILL.

  QUESTIONS.
  COLONEL SYKESdesired to know, If the Government intended to proceed with this Bill this Session?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: The Bill is not a Government measure.
  MR. CRAWFORDasked, if there would be a Morning Sitting on Friday?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I do not contemplate a Morning Sitting on that day.
  MR. DARBY GRIFFITHwished to know at what time the House would meet on Tuesday?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I propose to meet to-morrow at the old hour of twelve, and to sit until four, and then to suspend the Sitting until six o'clock.
  Motion agreed to.
  Orders discharged: Bills withdrawn.

WEST INDIA BISHOPS AND CLERGY BILL.—QUESTION.
MR. REMINGTON MILLSsaid, he would beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether, under the difficulty of carrying through the present Session of Parliament the West India Bishops and Clergy Bill, he will submit a Bill early in the ensuing Session for relieving this country of the burden of paying £20,300 per annum for the Ecclesiastical Establishments in the West Indies imposed by the Act 5 Vict., s. 2, c. 4; and whether any appointment requiring to be made in the meantime shall be subject to the future regulations of Parliament?
MR. ADDERLEYstated that the Government intended during the recess to collect information with the view of dealing with the subject in a way to relieve the Consolidated Fund from the charge on account of the West Indian Bishops and clergy. It was, however, impossible for the Government, while existing Acts remained unrepealed, to promise that any appointments in the meantime should be subject to future regulations.

INCREASE OF THE EPISCOPATE BILL.

  QUESTION.
  MR. WHITEwished to know, If it is seriously intended to proceed with this Bill at this late period of the Session?
  SIR ROUNDELL PALMERstated, that he seriously intended to proceed with, the Committee on this Bill.

MEETINGS IN ROYAL PARKS BILL.
(Mr. Secretary Walpole, Lord John Manners, Mr. Attorney General)
MEETINGS IN ROYAL PARKS BILL.

  [BILL 134.] SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  MR. GATHORNE HARDY, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said, it had been introduced by his right hon. Friend (Mr. Walpole) before Whitsuntide, and, when his attention had been called to it after coming to the Home Office, he stated that he would put certain Amendments on the Paper, which would show his intention as to the mode in which the Bill should be framed if it went into Committee. Practically the question was whether there should exist, with reference to the Royal Parks, that jurisdiction which, he believed, existed as to all other Parks in the country and all other recreation

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  grounds connected with large towns? He thought the present time peculiarly suited to the consideration of this measure, inasmuch as there was now a complete cessation from political agitation in connection with the assumed right of meeting in the Royal Parks. The existing law presented difficulties in the way of enforcing the rights of the Crown, not only in respect to political meetings, but also in respect to assemblages in the Royal Parks for the purposes of preaching, of musical performances, or of games. Practically the only remedy against such meetings was a resort to the ordinary law of trespass. He believed that there was nothing more clearly established than the title of the Crown over these Parks. It had been laid down in the most distinct and peremptory terms, and might be said to be conclusively established; but the difficulty was as to how it should be enforced; and hence the necessity for legislation. In trying the question merely of civil trespass, if there was no actual damage, the verdict might be for so small a sum that no useful result would follow. If the Crown proceeded by writ of intrusion, the old form of procedure, which was seldom acted upon, it might be open to very technical objections, and might, after all, lead to no practical result. The legal Opinions given on this subject had been read to the House on a former occasion. To the first was attached the names of the Lord Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench, Lord Westbury, and Mr. Henry Willes; to the second, the names of Lord Cairns and Sir William Bovill; and to the last Opinion the names were appended of Lord Justice Rolt and the Attorney General. All these great authorities expressed their opinion most confidently in favour of the right of the Crown to exclude the public from the Royal Parks. The right actually existed and was practically exercised at certain periods every day—the Parks being closed at certain hours. But so long as acts done were legal in themselves they could only be proceeded against if committed in the Parka, as for civil trespass. That was not, he believed, the case in any other recreation ground in the country. There was generally a power to lay down rules by which persons were summarily liable to be taken before the magistrates, and fined or dealt with as the case might require. If such a power were laid down by an Act of Parliament, this question would at once be settled. The only way in which this
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  question had become complicated had been from want of power to enforce rights which were acknowledged to exist. It had been complicated so long ago as 1855, when disturbances arose which attracted the attention of the House and the public. A Commission was appointed to inquire into the subject. Objections were entertained to the Sunday Trading (Lord Grosvenor's) Act. Meetings of the most tumultuous character were held against it, which rendered those Parks almost inaccessible to persons who were peaceably disposed, and who wished to use them for the purposes of recreation. The Commission reported—
  "It seems to us that meetings of this nature might properly be interdicted and suppressed as novel and not sanctioned by usage or the regulations of Hyde Park. To make Hyde Park an arena for the discussion of popular and exciting topics would be inconsistent with the chief purposes for which it is thrown open to and used by the public."
  After that religious discussions were got up, and the police had orders to remove those who engaged in them; but, in consequence of what had taken place this year, the preachers said, "You don't remove others and you have no right to remove us from the Park." But they had been removed; they submitted, and in no case had any question of law been raised as to the right of the police to remove those having been guilty of a breach of the conditions in which they were admitted to the Park. In 1862 the Garibaldi riots took place between those who were in favour of Garibaldi and others from the Irish quarters who were in opposition to him, when violent breaches of the peace took place, and the Parks were again rendered almost inaccessible to the public. The remedy was not clear and distinct. It often happened that the most guilty parties who occasioned those meetings in the Parks, and were really responsible for them, absented themselves from them, and therefore could not be proceeded against except by civil trespass. Certain steps were taken last year. The gates were closed, so that those who disputed the right of the Crown might have the opportunity of doing so. But the parties turned aside and did not enter the gates. They had an opportunity of testing the law at that time, but the question had not been raised, and so far as they were concerned there seemed to be an admission that the Crown had the right to close the gates. This was not a political question

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  at all, because the mode in which the present Government viewed the subject was that also in which the right hon. Gentleman the former Secretary of State regarded it. On July 24, 1866, the right hon. Baronet (Sir George Grey) said—
  "Sir Richard Mayne informed me that it was reported that it was intended to hold a meeting in Hyde Park. I told him that, in accordance with the course that had been adopted for some years past by the Government, the meeting in Hyde Park would not be permitted, and that I wished that an intimation to that effect should be made to those who were engaged in organizing the proposed meeting. I must, therefore, take upon myself a full share of responsibility for having acted on the opinion that it is inexpedient that meetings of a political character should be held in Hyde Park, and that it is utterly incompatible with the purpose for which the Parks are thrown open that large assemblages of people for making speeches or passing resolutions on political or religious matters should be permitted to take place in them."—[3 Hansard, clxxxiv, 1406.]
  That was precisely the view which the present Government took. At present the Parks of London were not protected by law as they were in other parts of the country, and therefore it was necessary that some legislation should take place on the subject. Look at what happened with regard to these meetings in the Parks. If no steps were taken by the Government, great blame would be thrown upon them for not having a sufficient body of police present to protect the public, whereas a sufficient force could not be brought together without great expense and trouble, and without withdrawing the police from other parts of the metropolis. It must be recollected that, however peaceable those who formed the meeting might be, it was inevitable that there would be a large number of hangers-on who would take the opportunity of plundering and annoying those who happened to be in the neighbourhood. It must not be supposed that this question related to Hyde Park alone; the whole of the Royal Parks were in the same position, being left without any special legislation. The only object of this Bill was the protection of the public, who had a right to the unrestricted enjoyment of the Parks. It was said that on a recent occasion a great number of persons were present who took no part in the meeting, but it must not be forgotten that many persons were prevented from visiting the Park on that occasion by fear. It should be distinctly understood that the Parks were free from any assemblage which could alarm the most timid. The Bill proposed
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  that any meeting held in the Royal Parks without the permission of the Crown should be an illegal assembly, and that the First Commissioner of Works should have power to make by-laws, the breach of which should be punishable by a small fine not to exceed 40 s., or some other sum to be determined upon in Committee. He had no wish that there should be any protracted discussion upon this Bill, neither did he wish it to be supposed that any political or religious question was raised by it. The Bill would operate as much for the benefit of the working as of any other class, seeing that its object was to preserve the Parks for the recreation of the people. As he saw in his place the hon. Member opposite who had put a Question to him the other day with regard to Trafalgar Square, he might inform him that that Square was by the 6 & 7 Vict. c. 60, put under the control of the Crown and of the First Commissioner of Works, but being within one mile of Westminster Hall it also came within the operation of the 57 Geo. III., which made it illegal for fifty or more persons to assemble within one mile of Westminster Hall for the purpose of agreeing to petitions with a view to overawing Parliament. He had adopted the form of that Act in dealing with public meetings held in the Royal Parks.
  MR. NEATEinquired what penalties the Bill proposed to impose on those who were guilty of a breach of its provisions?
  MR. GATHORNE HARDYsaid, it was an indictable offence punished with fine and imprisonment. He thought that important cases of breaches of the law in this respect should be tried by a jury, but other and minor cases might be dealt with summarily. His object was to give the same kind of protection to the Royal Parks that was enjoyed by public Parks in the country, and to enable the public to use them as places of recreation and enjoyment. There was a conclusive right in the Crown to regulate the use of the Royal Parks, but greater facilities were required for enforcing it.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Mr. Gathorne Hardy.)
  MR. NEATEsaid, he had expected from the Government a measure far more perfect and more adequate than the one that had been proposed. He thought that, instead of dealing with the question of the

  1883
  right of meeting in the Royal Parks only, they ought to have boldly grappled with the question, whether any open-air meetings ought to be permitted in the metropolis without the consent of the authorities. It would be well that the law on the subject should be clearly stated, as on a recent occasion it was loudly asserted by persons who ought to have known better, that his right hon. Friend the then Secretary of the Home Department was wrong in his view of the law, and that Mr. Beales was right. That opinion was entirely erroneous, and those who attended the meeting did so in wilful defiance of the law. He did not say that their conduct amounted to an actual breach of the law, as individual notices had not been served; but what he did say was, that the meeting was held in wilful defiance of the rights of the Crown. He thought that if the people of the metropolis had a right to meet in great numbers at the summons of irresponsible persons, it would be a mistake to prevent their assembling in Hyde Park, which would be a most convenient place. It was a great error to grant that there was a right of meeting, and then to forbid Hyde Park as a place of meeting on the ground that assemblies held there might interfere with the amusements of certain classes. That argument was strongly urged by idle men at the clubs when a difficulty arose last summer, and so strongly did he feel on the subject that he determined to unite himself to those who sought to open the Parks for public meetings, and he went to see Mr. Beales on this subject. He had not the good fortune to meet the gentleman, or perhaps, he had the good fortune not to meet him. [A laugh.] He said that to show that he did not look at the question in any class light. The question was, had three or four or half a dozen people the right to call together in the metropolis 20,000 or 30,000 people? If there was such a right it was one that ought not to be permitted to exist. What would be the result of such meetings in times of excitement, for there was no real excitement during the Reform agitation? The people then did everything in their power to keep order, as they wished to show that they were fitted for a large extension of political power; but at one of the meetings a speaker suggested that they should enlist into their service, as a kind of camp followers, the dangerous classes, and that they should hold such meetings every
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  week as would compel the shopkeepers of the metropolis to close their shops on the days of the meetings. It was not so long since riots had occurred at Nottingham, at Bristol, and elsewhere, and to avert such disgraceful scenes from the metropolis it was the duty of the Government to see that, now that the people had a legitimate channel for the expression of their opinions, they should not take an unconstitutional way of making them known. The Whig demagogues of other days talked of the sovereignty of the people, but little good came of it. The present Ministry had for the first time established that sovereignty on a firm basis, and it was their especial duty to see that the people, in the exercise of their power, kept within proper limits. He opposed the Bill as imperfect and inadequate, and moved, "That it is not expedient to deal with the question of Public Meetings in the metropolis only with reference to the Royal Parks."
  Motion not put.
  MR. P. A. TAYLORrose to move that the Bill be read a second time that day three months. He thought that the Bill ought to be termed "A Bill to take away the right of public meeting in the metropolis." ["Oh, oh!"] It was true that nominally the right of public meeting was preserved; but they should remember the words of Shylock: "You take my house when you do take the prop that doth sustain my house; you take my life when you do take the means whereby I live." The right of public meeting was spared; but it was necessary that there should be a place for holding such meeting; and the Bill deprived the people of the metropolis of the only convenient place in which they could assemble, or, rather, the only convenient place in which such meetings could be held. In certain portions of the Bill the Parks were treated as the property of the public; in others as that of the Queen. He did not, of course, mean to say that the Bill treated the Parks as if they were the private property of the Queen, although one Gentleman, who said, "Why should the Queen permit a political meeting to be held without her consent in Hyde Park any more than I would in my own park?" appeared to favour that idea. From 1 Geo. III. to 14 & 15 Vict. a whole series of Acts had been passed vesting the management of the Parks in Commissioners (as see Clause 1), public servants expending public money, whereas by Clause A in the Bill the management was

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  referred to as vested in the Prerogative of Her Majesty. If the law, as stated in Clause A, was correct—if the management and control of the Parks was the Prerogative of the Crown—the whole policy of the Government with reference to the public meetings in Hyde Park had been—to use a phrase which was classical on the other side — one of "meddle and muddle." He was surprised the Bill had been again brought forward. He should have thought they would rather have wished to have buried in oblivion what had taken place with regard to the Royal Parks during the last fifteen months rather than revive it. He thought that it was now generally acknowledged that every evil consequence that had attended the public meetings in Hyde Park was due to the mismanagement of Government, and that the leaders of the people had behaved in a manner not only blameless, but praiseworthy. In July last it was determined to hold a public meeting in Hyde Park. The Government then held an Opinion, signed by Sir Alexander Cockburn, Lord Westbury, and Mr. Justice Willes, stating that although the Government had a right to keep the public out, yet, if persons who had once entered held a meeting, or preached, they could not be turned out without proper notice. What did the Government do? They guarded certain points at which entrance might be effected; they left a long line of crazy old railings undefended; the people crowded around these rails, and they went down. He believed that most men were now agreed in the opinion that the people went there with no idea whatever of forcing their way in. The moment the people entered, the authorities—although they held a legal Opinion informing them that persons who had once entered the Park could only be dealt with in the regular course of law—let loose the police on the people to hunt down and assault them. He found no fault with the police, for they were under the control of the Government, and the fault was with the latter. Great excitement prevailed for two or three days, and then the Government called on Mr. Beales to maintain order and keep the peace. Last May it was proposed to hold another meeting in Hyde Park, and the Government took another legal Opinion. Sir Hugh Cairns and Mr. Bovill, the then Law Officers of the Crown, stated that the contemplated assembly was not unlawful so long as those who took part in it conducted themselves in an
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  orderly manner, and that practically, by legal means, the proposed meeting could not be dispersed. The Government, nevertheless, issued the following manifesto:—
  "Whereas it has been publicly announced that a meeting will be held in Hyde Park on Monday, the 6th day of May, for the purpose of political discussion; and whereas the use of the Park for the purpose of holding such meeting is not permitted, and interferes with the object for which Her Majesty has been pleased to open the Park for the general enjoyment of her people; now all persons are hereby warned and admonished to abstain from attending, aiding, or taking part in any such meeting, or from entering the Park with a view to attend, aid, or take part in such meeting.
  "S. H. WALPOLE.
  "Home Office, Whitehall, May 1."
  Placards had been posted throughout the streets, warning persons against entering the Park and taking part in the meeting. The organs of the Government and the press fulminated threats against the people — infantry, cavalry, and artillery were prepared for action at the different railway stations, but at the last moment the Government withdrew from the contest. If it were possible to irritate the people, mischief might have arisen from what the Government had done, He did not say that such was the intention of the Government, but they could not have taken a course more calculated to do so. The meeting was held. It was numerous, but peaceful, quiet, and orderly. It was admitted in both Houses of Parliament that nothing could have been more praiseworthy or more excellent than the demeanour of those who attended that meeting, and it clear that the Government withdrew because they found that they had no law on their side. The Reform League were not the violent and bloodthirsty demagogues they had been represented by some persons in that House to be. He was present at a meeting of the Reform League before the meeting in the Park took place, and their only desire was fairly and firmly to try the question of the people's right to meet in the Parks. The chairman of one of the platforms announced that, to prevent the occurrence of anything unpleasant, he would have around him a guard of thirty or forty persons, who would open their ranks to admit any officer who came to arrest him. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War, when answering a deputation respecting the removal of Knightsbridge Barracks, used the following language:—
  "Looking to recent events, which none of them could ignore, he would ask whether it was not important

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  that, wherever a barrack should be placed, it should be very handy?"
  He could tell the right hon. Gentleman that nothing could be less convenient and handy than to interfere with the exercise of the people's rights by the introduction of a military force. The right hon. Gentleman should recollect the moderate and statesmanlike language of Lord Russell on the subject. His Lordship said—
  "With regard to the future, I do hope that, having committed two such capital mistakes—the great mistake last year of trying to keep the people out, and the mistake this year which has led to a great diminution of the respect for authority—the Government will now leave Hyde Park alone."—[3 Hansard, clxxxvii. 231.]
  It was said as an argument against such public meetings that they were too large for public discussion, and therefore answered no useful purpose. He dared to say that very few persons changed their opinions in consequence of anything they heard on such occasions, but that did not prove that such assemblies were useless. It was said last year that the people did not want Reform, but, thanks to these great meetings in the metropolis and elsewhere, hon. Gentlemen opposite were convinced that they were in error. It was seen, indeed, that the people were so much in earnest as to compel right hon. Gentlemen opposite to come forward with the most Radical measure of Reform ever proposed by the Government of this country. But, then, it was said that these meetings were objectionable and dangerous, because they brought together so many of the class called "roughs." In all great populations there would be found a certain number of persons—call them "roughs" or "residuum" — who were drunken, depraved, and dishonest. But he maintained that it was the duty of the Government to protect the working classes in Reform meetings against the "roughs," just as they protected the upper classes against them in reviews and at other gatherings. The presence of these roughs was no reason why the Government should put a stop to public meetings, but was a reason why they should protect the right of public meeting against the disorderly and dangerous classes. The protection of the right of public meeting was more important than the protection of flower-beds; and he defied any person to say that when the people did meet in the Park a single flower was destroyed. There was no use in passing the Bill or in multiplying legistion, without deriving from it any possible
  1888
  advantage. The Government could not draw up a Bill of indictment against a whole people, or pass a law that would trammel their liberties. Let it not be said that in the Session of Parliament in which they had passed the most Radical measure of Reform ever introduced in that House, they had also passed a measure to abrogate the right of meeting. They had, by a generous admission of the people to the franchise, done away with the exclusion that previously existed. The people admitted to the franchise could now speak through their representatives in Parliament; and there being now, as he believed, an end of the meetings in the Park, was it advisable to recall all the ill-feeling that had been excited by the interference of the Government? By passing this Bill they would create a new statutable offence, and its extent and limit in reference to public meetings should be clearly defined. Some persons might meet spontaneously without any previous notification. During the visit of Garibaldi such a meeting took place, and if this Bill had been passed at that time the persons attending that meeting would have been liable to arrest. If we were about to imitate the tactics of our neighbours accross the Channel with respect to the right of public meeting we must do so to a still greater extent even than was now proposed, and, perhaps, it would eventually be found necessary to appoint a new officer with the title of Prefect of the Thames. He, for one, should not like to see such a state of things brought about, and for these reasons, as well as for many others which he should not take up the time of the House by stating, he should move that the Bill be read a second time that day three months.
  MR. J. STUART MILLseconded the Amendment.
  Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day three months."—(Mr. Taylor.)
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, he concurred with the object of the hon. and learned Member for Oxford (Mr. Neate), but had not seconded the proposal because he thought a confusion might have arisen between the two Amendments by which the hon. Member for Leicester (Mr. Taylor) might have gained an undue advantage. The hon. Member for Leicester had complained of the Bill as tending to establish an undue

  1889
  extension of the Prerogative of the Crown. The hon. Member did not seem to be aware that there was no Prerogative except that which was declared enacted and limited by law. He (Mr. Newdegate) admitted that the Bill strengthened the Prerogative of the Crown in the matter of the Parks by supplementing it with the power of intervention by the Board of Works. He admitted that this was a valid objection, for he was opposed to vesting extraordinary discretionary power, which was virtually arbitrary power, in the hands of officials with respect to matters touching the right of public meeting. He (Mr. Newdegate) had much rather there had been no discretionary power proposed to be vested in the Board of Works or any other office. He would rather see the principle of the old Act of Geo. III., under which public meetings during the sitting of Parliament were not allowed to be held within one mile of the House, extended to three miles. This Bill was not, as the hon. Member seemed to think, a specimen of monarchical legislation. The United States of America, when their Republican Constitution was established, reserved the federal territory of Columbia—six miles round the Capital—free from all public meetings, and kept that territory non-political under the exclusive and absolute power of Congress, for the sake of guarding against that system of terrorism which formerly had existed in Paris, and, by overawing the legislative assemblies, had destroyed the freedom of France. In 1848 a large number of persons from Bristol came to that House, to a Friend of his, and threatened that the Bristol people would come to London in great strength, and the reply they got was: "You may, if you can, bring the Bristol mob to London, but the London mob will lick them—will break their heads and send them back." He (Mr. Newdegate) did not doubt that if the terrorism of large meetings in the metropolis was found to prevail that the people would come up from the midland counties to support that House against such dictation; but what would be the consequence, confusion worse confounded. It was therefore absolutely necessary to guard the freedom of the deliberations of that House from invasion by local mobs. He believed the Reform Bill would pass, and that they would thereby secure a full expression of the popular will. But having done that, he thought it would be better if the Government had followed the
  1890
  example set by the Statute of Geo. III., passed in 1817, by which it was enacted that not always, not during election times, but during the sittings of Parliament, the right of public meeting should be prohibited within three miles of the House. Such a measure would have been less arbitrary in its character and principle than rendering the exercise of the right of public meeting subject to the discretion of the Ministry, while it would secure the freedom of deliberation to the House. And there was another reason for this. Parliament had decided that the Courts of Law should be removed from Westminster Hall to Lincoln's-inn-fields. Now the Act of Geo. III., was intended for the protection of the Courts of Law as well as of Parliament. The removal therefore of the Courts of Law afforded a good reason for extending the sphere of the operations of the Act of Geo. III., and he regretted that Her Majesty's Government had not taken that course rather than introducing the present measure.
  MR. J. STUART MILLsaid, among the many, to me, regretable things which were said by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Oxford (Mr. Neate), there was one with which I entirely agree: that this question is entirely a political question. It is only as a political question that I care about it. I see no reason why we should at present discuss all the purposes for which the Parks should or should not be allowed to be used. All I am anxious about is that political meetings should be allowed to be held there. And why do I desire this? Because it has been for centuries the pride of this country, and one of its most valued distinctions from the despotically-governed countries of the Continent, that a man has a right to speak his mind, on politics or on any other subject, to those who would listen to him, when and where he will. He has not a right to force himself upon anyone; he has not a right to intrude upon private property; but wheresoever he has a right to be, there, according to the Constitution of this country, he has a right to talk politics, to one, to fifty, or to 50,000 persons. I stand up for the right of doing this in the Parks. I am not going to discuss this matter as an affair of technical law. We are not here as lawyers, but as legislators. We are not now considering what is the interpretation of the existing law; we are considering what the law ought to be. We are told that the Parks belong to the

  1891
  Crown, but the Crown means Her Majesty's Government. Her Majesty's Government of course have power over the Parks; they have power over all thoroughfares, all public places, but they have it for purposes strictly denned. It is not, I believe, even pretended that the Parks are the property of the Sovereign in the same manner as Balmoral and Osborne are her property. They are part of the hereditary property of the Crown, which the Sovereign at her accession gave up to the nation in exchange for the Civil List; and the right hon. Gentleman would find some difficulty in showing that the surrender was accompanied with any condition as to the particular uses to which the Parks should be applied — any stipulation confining their use to walking and riding, or, as it is called, recreation. As long as the compact with Her Majesty exists, so long, I contend, the Parks are public property, to be managed for public uses at the public expense, and to be applied to all uses conducive to the public interest. If a technical right of exclusion has been allowed to be kept up, it is for police purposes—for the safety of the public property and the maintenance of the public peace—and not for the restriction of the freedom of public speaking. On what principle is the House asked to curtail this inherited freedom of speech, and make it penal for the people to use that freedom in large numbers, in the only places now left in the metropolis where large numbers can conveniently be assembled? On no principle can this be done, except that of the most repressive acts of the Governments most jealous of public freedom. The French Emperor says that twenty-one people shall not meet and talk polities in a drawing-room without his license. Her Majesty's Government only says that 100,000 people shall not meet for a similar purpose in the Parks without theirs. This is a wide difference in degree. It is much better to have our lips sealed in the Parks than in our own houses—better that free speech should be limited to a few thousands or hundreds than to tens; but the principle is the same, and if once it is admitted, a violation has commenced of the traditional liberties of the country, and the extent to which such violation may afterwards be carried becomes a mere question of detail. But what is the justification alleged for introducing arbitrary restrictions by which the holding of a great open-air meeting in London
  1892
  without the previous consent of the Government will be made impossible? The excuses which profess to be founded on public convenience do not deserve an answer, even if they had not been already answered a hundred times; the fact is, no one believes them to be serious. There is no decent argument for the interdiction of political meetings in the Park, which does not proceed on the assumption that political meetings are not a legitimate purpose to apply a public place to, and that it is, on the whole, a desirable thing to discourage them. I wish hon. Gentlemen to be aware what it is they are asked to vote for; what doctrine respecting the constitional liberties of this country they will give their adhesion to if they support the Bill. The opinion they will pledge themselves to is something like this — unfortunately the people of this country are so foolish that they will have the right of holding large political meetings, and it is impossible to take it from them by law; but that right, though necessary, is a necessary evil, and it is a point gained to render its exercise more rare by throwing impediments in its way. If hon. Gentlemen opposite would be candid, I am persuaded they would confess that this is a fair statement of what is really in their minds. It is proved by the arguments they use. They say that these multitudinous meetings are not held for the purpose of discussion, but for intimidation. Sir, I believe public meetings, multitudinous or not, seldom are intended for discussion. That is not their function. They are a public manifestation of the strength of those who are of a certain opinion. It is easy to give this a bad name; but it is one of the recognized springs of our Constitution. Let us not be intimidated by the word "intimidation." Will any one say that the numbers and enthusiasm of those who join in asking anything from Parliament, are not one of the elements which a Statesman ought to have before him, and which a wise Statesman will take into consideration in deciding whether to grant or to refuse the request? We are told that threatening language is used at these meetings. In a time of excitement there are always persons who use threatening language. But we can bear a great deal of that sort of thing, without being the worse for it, in a country which has inherited from its ancestors the right of political demonstration. It cannot be borne quite so well by countries which do not

  1893
  possess this right. Then, the discontent, which cannot exhale itself in public meetings, bursts forth in insurrections, which, whether successful or repressed, always leave behind them a long train of calamitous consequences. But it is said that it is not meant to put down these public meetings, or to prevent them from being held. No; but you mean to render them more difficult; you mean to impose conditions on them, other than that of keeping the public peace. Now, any condition whatever imposed on political meetings, over and above those by which every transaction of any of Her Majesty's subjects is necessarily bound—and any restriction of place or time imposed on political speech, which is not imposed on other speech—involves the same vicious and unconstitutional principle. Sir, I contend that all open spaces belonging to the public, in which large numbers can congregate without doing mischief, should be freely open for the purpose of public meetings, subject to the precautions necessary for the preservation of the peace. A great meeting cannot possibly be called together in London without the Government knowing of it before-hand, and having ample warning to have a sufficient force of police at hand to meet any exigency, however improbable. I must therefore oppose this Bill to the utmost.
  MR. KERsaid, he thought that there could be no second opinion in the mind of any gentleman living within a radius of two miles of Hyde Park as to the necessity for the measure introduced by the Government. From time immemorial the Parks had been regarded as places of recreation and peaceful enjoyment, and if political meetings were allowed there it would be impossible for the public to take advantage of them for their legitimate purposes. He was glad to see that, though late, the Government had taken up the matter.
  MR. OTWAYsaid he did not think the Parks were the most suitable places for political meetings; but he would vote for the Amendment of the hon. Member for Leicester, because the Bill contained two clauses the most objectionable that were ever submitted to the House of Commons. The 3rd clause infringed in the most direct and absolute manner the constitutional right of every inhabitant of the country. The Bill prohibited the people from holding meetings, but it permitted meetings under certain circumstances—if the permission of Her Majesty could be obtained
  1894
  —which meant, of course, the permission of the Government. Were hon. Gentlemen prepared to say that those who were about to express opinions in opposition to the Government should be prohibited from holding their meetings, while, if their opinions were favourable to the Government, they would be permitted to hold them? The 4th clause provided that any person convening, or aiding, or assisting in convening a meeting in contravention of this Act, whether such meeting was held or not, could, without warrant, be arrested, and, at the discretion of a magistrate, sent to prison. He felt it was impossible for the House of Commons to pass such a clause as that, which would render any hon. Member who wrote to his friend that he thought it desirable that a meeting should be held in the Park liable to be proceeded against as "assisting in convening" the meeting, and sent to prison. He agreed with the hon. Member for Leicester that this was not the time to bring forward such a measure. It was very well known that if the Government brought it forward at the time of their most lamentable administrative failure which brought them into such universal ridicule, there was not an hon. Gentleman on the Ministerial side, except those occupying the Treasury Bench, who would have supported it. ["Oh!"] Now, when the matter had toned down, was not that the time to ask the House of Commons to pass such a measure? He trusted the House would reject this Bill; if it passed it he was sure that in the new House a Motion would be made for its repeal; if he were returned he would move that Motion himself, and he was sure it would be carried by an overwhelming majority.
  MR. J. HARDYsaid, all sensible people with whom he had conversed held that these meetings were idle and mischievous. The hon. Member for Leicester (Mr. Taylor) said that this Bill was intended to put down public discussion. He would not deny that he said so.
  MR. P. A. TAYLOR: I do deny it.
  MR. J. HARDY: Then you will deny anything. ["Order!"]
  MR. OTWAY: I rise to Order.
  MR. J. HARDY: He is returned by the refuse of a large constituency. ["Order!"]
  MR. OTWAY: I rise to Order, Sir. I move that the words of the hon. Member be taken down.
  MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member has used an expression which is not in Order. He has stated that the hon. Member is returned by the refuse of a large constituency. When an hon. Member has been duly returned to this House that is not a proper way of describing his return.
  MR. J. HARDY: I only meant that the hon. Gentleman included such among his supporters. ["Order!"]
  MR. MONK: I rise to Order. I ask you, Sir, whether the hon. Gentleman has withdrawn the expression he used?
  MR. SPEAKER: I understand the hon. Gentleman to say he accepts the Rule of Order laid down.
  MR. J. HARDY: I do withdraw it, and I am sorry for having used it. He denied that this Bill was intended to put down public discussion. Only, when it was remembered that this metropolis included 3,000,000, and that the roughs were estimated at 50,000, if they were to be the camp followers of every meeting that was held, he thought it was a pity that they should be allowed to trample down and destroy the Parks which it cost the country so many thousands a year to maintain. He had no doubt that, if allowed on Primrose Hill, the meetings would die out as they did in Trafalgar Square, where it was disgusting to see the way in which the monuments were trampled under foot. As to the right of public discussion, he went to the Reform League meeting in May last, and there certainly was a great collection of people, but not one man in fifty took any part in the discussions that were going on. The people were walking over the Park, and he would allow that everything was carried on most orderly. He believed the Reform League were in very great fear lest anything disorderly should happen, and accordingly brought the proceedings to a conclusion as speedily as possible. It was simply ridiculous to think of discussing any question in an arena like Hyde Park.
  MR. SAMUDAsaid, the right hon. Gentleman who introduced the Bill had spoken of Amendments of which the House had no knowledge. [Mr. GATHORNE HARDY: They have been on the table for a fortnight.] No hon. Member seemed to know anything about them. He thought the most serious objection to the Bill was that power was given to hold public meetings if the consent of the Government had been previously obtained, while no such meetings could be held if the consent were
  1896
  withheld. Unquestionably, the holding of public meetings in the Parks was a great evil; but it was like many other necessary evils in the country. In his opinion, it was particularly objectionable that the Government should have the power of preventing meetings which might be unfavourable to them, believing that public meetings formed a safety valve calculated to prevent national misfortunes.
  MR. DARBY GRIFFITHasked some information from the First Commissioner of Works as to the time when the Hyde Park railings would be finished, and who the contractor for them was? The announcement that the railings would not be completed until the end of next Session appeared to have created great dissatisfaction.
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, the House considered the question at this disadvantage—that they were discussing a Bill on the second reading without having in their hands the precise terms which the Home Secretary had expressed his readiness to make. He knew that was not the fault of the right hon. Gentleman, but arose from a technicality; but it was desirable that hon. Members should have the opportunity of understanding the whole matter distinctly. It was most desirable that the power should exist of preventing these Parks being so appropriated as to interfere with the objects for which they were supported at considerable expense. He trusted that the right hon. Gentleman would, in the event of the Bill being read a second time, consent to its being committed pro formâ, in order that hon. Members might have time to consider its provisions. On that condition he should vote in favour of the second reading of the Bill.
  MR. GATHORNE HARDYwas willing to assent to the proposal of the right hon. Baronet.
  MR. DENMANsaid, he hoped it would be thoroughly understood that that undertaking went further than mere words. It was necessary to say this, because it was sometimes remarked that those who had assented to the second reading of a Bill without a discussion were pledged to its principles.
  Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
  The House divided;—Ayes 181; Noes 64: Majority 117.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read a second time, and committed for To-morrow, at Twelve of the clock.

  SUPPLY.
  Order for Committee read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

  REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE (SCOTLAND) BILL.—QUESTION.
  SIR ANDREW AGNEWasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether he would order the Scotch Reform Bill, when committed pro formâ, to be re-printed before the end of the Session, as in its present form great misapprehension would exist about it in Scotland?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERpromised to place the Bill on the Paper for Monday; and, without intending to proceed with it in Committee, would do as the hon. Baronet wished, if possible.
  Motion agreed to.

  SUPPLY—CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.
  SUPPLY considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  (1.) Question again proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £24,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, for Bounties on Slaves, and Tonnage Bounties, for Expenses incurred for the Support and Conveyance of Captured Negroes, and for other Charges under the Acts for the Abolition of the Slave Trade."
  MR. DARBY GRIFFITHsuggested, that granting bounties might be an inducement to make captures rather rashly. He hoped that, as the African slave trade was nearly extinct, some reduction might be made in the expenses.
  MR. E. C. EGERTONadmitted that very large sums had been expended for the suppression of the traffic, which, he was happy to say, was now decreasing, so that the expenditure had not been fruitless. He hoped that his hon. Friend would not be too hard on Her Majesty's officers if they seized vessels which they thought were to be employed in the carrying on of the slave trade.
  MR. KINNAIRDobserved, that it was a most difficult duty which the officers engaged in the suppression of the slave trade had to perform, and it was only by the constant watchfulness of our cruisers that the infamous traffic could be prevented. If the Government relaxed the
  1898
  very necessary precautions which were now taken there would probably be a lamentable increase of the trade.
  MR. ALDERMAN LUSKhad no objection to payment by results, but the results of the last fifty years were very small indeed. According to the statistics which he had before him the health of the seamen on the West Coast of Africa appeared to be very little lower than it was upon the home station. In conclusion the hon. Member moved that the Vote be reduced by £5,000.
  Whereupon Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £19,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, for Bounties on Slaves, and Tonnage Bounties, for Expenses incurred for the Support and Conveyance of Captured Negroes, and for other Charges under the Acts for the Abolition of the Slave Trade."—(Mr. Lusk.)
  MR. DARBY GRIFFITHsaid, that the system of bounties appeared to be a sort of blood money, which was hardly reconcilable with the honourable profession of arms.
  MR. HENRY SEYMOURthought that, the whole question of the position of the slave trade, and the method employed for its suppression, required the consideration of the Government. The system of bounties was good years ago, when large numbers of slaves were exported, but there was now no market for them, except in the dominions of our allies, the Sultan of Turkey and the Pacha of Egypt. There was no market for slaves any longer in Cuba, and therefore the trade on the West Coast of Africa must die out. There was no justification for keeping some of our best ships and officers, and sacrificing the lives of our seamen on the worst station to which the British navy was sent, if there were no slaves there. The slave trade, however, was still being largely carried on from the interior of Africa across the Red Sea and into the dominions of the Pacha of Egypt, and some change was consequently necessary in the means we adopted for the suppression of the traffic in that quarter. He should like to see the Consulate revived at Khartoum.
  MR. CHILDERSthought that a very considerable reduction in the strength of the squadron on the West Coast of Africa might now be made. At the same time he was bound to say that the hon. Member

  1899
  for Finsbury was not accurate in the statement he made with regard to the comparative mortality on the coast of Africa and on the home station. The deaths on the coast of Africa were 57 per 1,000 annually; and the deaths on the home station were 5 per 1,000 annually. It was well known that the coast of Africa was frightfully dangerous. If the men were to forego their bounties and prize money, fresh conditions as to the engagement and entry of seamen would have to be made.
  MR. LABOUCHEREobserved, that the existence of the squadron was the reason why slaves were not now sent to Cuba. There were slave brokers, however, there still, and some of the Spanish officials were willing to take bribes to allow the slaves to be landed. It always paid in Cuba to buy slaves, because the climate was so bad for them they soon died out, and the practice now was to work them out, and to renew the stock by fresh supplies when they could be obtained.
  MR. HENRY SEYMOURthought that the observations of the hon. Member must apply to a state of things which existed in Cuba two or three years ago, but which had since been much changed in consequence of a movement now going on to liberate the slaves. The price of them had consequently gone down enormously.
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, if there was a liberation movement going on, it would be well to wait until it had taken place, before discontinuing measures for the suppression of the slave trade.
  MR. ALDERMAN LUSKsaid, that if the coast of Africa were so extremely unhealthy, that circumstance constituted a reason for discontinuing the squadron.
  SIR JOHN HAYconfirmed the statement of the hon. Member for Pontefract, as to the relative mortality of sailors on the African coast and on the home station; and explained the small number of captures of slaves by stating that the vigilance of the squadron now generally prevented the slaves from being embarked.
  LORD STANLEYsaid, he looked forward with some confidence to a not distant period when the squadron would become unnecessary. What had taken place in the United States had struck a very heavy blow at the system of slavery, and he was bound to say from all he heard, even as to Cuba itself, there was a change of feeling, and people had begun to doubt the policy or expediency of bringing in fresh negroes there. At the same time, he did not think it would be wise suddenly
  1900
  or at one blow to take away the establishment on the African coast. By doing that we should place a great temptation in the way of those persons who, at this moment, were beginning to see the mistake of their system, and to adopt a better one. He was as favourable as any one to the reduction of the squadron; at the same time, we were bound by treaties on the subject, and any violent transition was certainly not expedient.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Original Question put, and agreed to.
  (2.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £6,450, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Mixed Commissions established under the Treaties with Foreign Powers for suppressing the Traffic in Slaves."
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £5,450, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Mixed Commissions established under the Treaties with Foreign Powers for suppressing the Traffic in Slaves."—(Mr. Childers.)
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Original Question again proposed.
  Whereupon Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £5,750, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Mixed Commissions established under the Treaties with Foreign Powers for suppressing the Traffic in Slaves,"—(Mr. Childers,)
  —put, and agreed to.
  (3.) £124,188, to complete the sum for Consuls abroad.
  MR. MONKasked whether the offices of Consul General and the Judge of the Consular Court at Constantinople had been merged into one? He also inquired if the fees of certain small Consulships were still retained by the Consuls, or whether they were paid into the Treasury and the Consuls remunerated by a salary?
  LORD STANLEYsaid, that in the case of all Consulates which had become vacant since the change of system as regarded payment, the fees were received by the Treasury and the Consuls were paid by salary. Since 1860 the fees received by the Treasury had increased from £4,400 to very nearly £18,000. Consuls appointed

  1901
  before the change was made continued to be paid in part by fees.
  MR. LABOUCHEREcalled attention to the present system of paying clerks in the Foreign Office, who acted as agents to the Consuls, a certain percentage on their salaries. It was very much objected to by the Consular service, and it would be very desirable to have it abolished as speedily as possible. Under it between £4,000 and £5,000 a year found its way into the pockets of certain clerks in the Foreign Office.
  LORD STANLEYsaid, he had, to a certain extent, investigated the subject with a view to an alteration, but as yet he had not been able to see his way clear to do so. It was not a system it would be desirable to establish if it did not already exist. He did not find, however, that it was so unpopular as the hon. Member had represented. Some of the Consuls considered it a convenience rather than otherwise, and he believed that complaints against it were few. It was a complicated matter, and he could give no pledge except that he would examine it again in the Recess.
  Vote agreed to.
  (4.) £103,983, to complete the sum for Services in China, Japan and Siam.
  MR. ALDERMAN LUSKcomplained that the establishments in these countries cost a much larger sum than they ought to do, some of the salaries which were paid being very great.
  LORD STANLEY: No doubt these services in China and Japan are highly paid for; but the Estimate has been gone through over and over again, and carefully revised, and I think I can affirm that the scale at which salaries are now paid is more a matter of necessity than of choice. It must be remembered that the Chinese coast is one of the most unhealthy to which a man can be sent; the mortality is great. There is the competition of mercantile houses, which in effect fixes the minimum of possible salary. There is the necessity of residing in a remote and disagreeable country. There is the necessity of studying the language, which is a labour no man will undertake except with the assurance of being employed. On the whole, it seems inevitable that work in China should be paid for more expensively than elsewhere.
  Vote agreed to.
  (5.) £26,000, to complete the sum for
  1902
  Ministers at Foreign Courts, Extraordinary Expenses.
  MR. CHILDERSasked whether the time had not now come for placing the whole expenses in connection with foreign embassies in the annual Estimates? There may have been good reasons for the Civil List arrangements in former times; but, now that a considerable part of the Foreign Office expenditure was voted, there appeared no reason why the whole should not be. Besides, he saw no difference between the salaries of Ministers at home and abroad.
  LORD STANLEYsupposed the Committee would not expect him to give a definite answer to this question at once. It would be reasonable for him to ask the same question of his hon. Friend (Mr. Childers) who had been for some time in a position to make the change he asked for. He was quite ready, however, to examine into the matter at some future time, as it was a very fair proposition to make. But it was clear that the Foreign Office might take credit to itself for the way in which expenditure of this description had been kept down during the last five-and-twenty years. Our diplomatists were not more highly paid than during the last generation, although the price of living had risen throughout Europe, probably not less than 30 or 40 per cent.
  MR. LABOUCHEREremarked that the reason these items did not appear on the Estimates was that formerly they were paid out of the Civil List of the Sovereign. He thought good reason existed for doing away with the anomaly complained of. What reason was there for an Embassy at Würtemberg or at Dresden? When he was at Dresden he found that the Ambassador had positively nothing to do; and being curious to see when anything had been done, he searched the archives and found that the last despatch home had been written in 1819.
  Vote agreed to.
  (6.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding, £26,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, for Special Missions, Diplomatic Outfits, and Conveyance and Entertainment of Colonial Officers and others."
  MR. POLLARD-URQUHARTobjected to the excessive item of £6,610 for Mr. Rassam's mission to Abyssinia. A friend of his had lived in Abyssinia for three years, and it had cost him only £1,000.
  MR. ALDERMAN LUSKsaid, it would be better if some items of expenditure were not particularized. It would be unpleasant to the feelings of some persons to contrast the item "Expenses of investing the Kings of Portugal and Denmark and Grand Duke of Hesse with the Order of the Garter, £2,537 3s. 10 d," with the next to it, which set down £17 16 s. 9d. for investing the Bey of Tunis with the Grand Cross of the Bath.
  MR. LABOUCHEREthought that special missions to carry out Orders to foreign potentates were relics of the past that ought to be put an end to.
  SIR J. CLARKE JERVOISEmoved to reduce the Vote by the item of £1,728 9s. 9d., the expenses of the "British Medical Commission on Cholera at Constantinople." It was very doubtful whether it was wise to appoint this Commission, and as they had made no Report, the House had no knowledge from any results whether they had been to Constantinople at all.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That the Item of £1,728 9s. 9d., for Expenses of British Medical Commission on Cholera at Constantinople be omitted from the proposed Vote."—(Sir J. Clarke Jervoise.)
  LORD STANLEYsaid, the Commission was appointed before he came into office. As the East was the part of the world from which the cholera proceed to Western Europe, it was only natural to suppose that a Sanitary Commission to Constantinople would be useful. The Commission had not been idle, for he had received from time to time voluminous Reports from it. Before the end of the Session he should be prepared to lay everything on the table. At all events, the members of the Commission who had been sent out having done their work, it would be absurd now to refuse to pay what had been promised them.
  MR. LABOUCHEREbelieved that the Commission was sent out at the request of the Turkish Government.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Original Question put, and agreed to.
  (7.) £1,658, to complete the sum for Third Secretaries to Embassies.
  (8.) £23,000, to complete the sum for Temporary Commissions.
  (9.) £23,410, to complete the sum for Patent Law Expenses.
  (10.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
  1904
  "That a sum, not exceeding £11,667, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Board of Fisheries in Scotland."
  MR. LAMONTmoved that the Vote be reduced by the sum of £5,771 15 s., being the amount of the salaries and miscellaneous expenses of the Scottish Fishery Board for six months. The Board had all along been a nest of jobbery, and had never attempted to enforce the restrictions which it was desirable to maintain.
  Whereupon Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £5,895 5s., be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Board of Fisheries in Scotland."—(Mr. Lamont.)
  SIR GRAHAM MONTGOMERYlooked upon the Amendment as a proposal to abolish the Scotch Fishery Board, the duties of which would not be so heavy as they had been in consequence of an Act recently passed, but it would still have important functions to discharge. Long line and seine net fishermen were constantly interfering with each other, and the Fishery Board were better able to regulate such matters than officers of the navy or any other authorities. He thought that the fisheries of Scotland had very much benefited by the action of the Board.
  MR. ALDERMAN LUSKwas of opinion that, after the legislation which had taken place, the Fishery Board was of no use at all. He hoped there would be some reduction in the future charge under this head.
  MR. BLAKEsupported the Vote. The Board had done good work in the promotion of the fisheries in Scotland. This had been shown very distinctly by the evidence of Mr. Primrose, the secretary of the Fishery Board, before the Committee of which he was a member, and he was much surprised that two Scotchmen were found to oppose the Vote.
  MR. LAMONTadmitted, that the Scotch fisheries had prospered, but not in consequence of the action of the Board, but rather in spite of it.
  MR. HUNTsaid, that if the Board were abolished it would be necessary to repeal several Acts of Parliament.
  SIR GRAHAM MONTGOMERYdefended the Fishery Board, which had been most effective and successful.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Original Question put, and agreed to.
  (11.) £39,948, to complete the sum for Dues payable under Treaties of Reciprocity.
  (12.) £1,700, to complete the sum for Inspection of Corn Returns.
  MR. READsaid, that in consequence of the corn having passed through three or four hands before its price was returned, the averages considerably exceeded the price received by the growers. It would be preferable if the dealers were only to return the price they paid to the actual growers, and not that which they paid the intermediate dealers.
  MR. HUNTexpressed a hope that the hon. Member for Norfolk would communicate with the President of the Board of Trade, with the view of suggesting a remedy for the evil complained of.
  Vote agreed to.
  (13.) £550, Boundary Survey, Ireland.
  (14.) £416, Publication of Brehon Laws, Ireland.
  MR. MONKasked when this publication would be completed?
  MR. HUNTreplied that it would occupy thirteen volumes, two of which would be published every year.
  Vote agreed to.
  (15.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £2,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, for encouraging the cultivation of Flax in the South and West of Ireland."
  MR. ALDERMAN LUSKobjected to this Vote, which was wrong in principle. It looked like a bribe to the people of Ireland. Unless the Government would give him a pledge to reduce it by £1,000 next year, he would move an Amendment.
  MR. MAGUIREhoped the Government would not be deterred from continuing the grant which was not of the nature of a bribe; it was simply an expenditure incurred in order to teach the people a forgotten trade, from which the country would hereafter profit. There were several thousands of acres in Munster already dedicated to the growth of flax, and in
  1906
  Cork city at that moment there were 20,000 spindles at work.
  MR. HUNTsubmitted that in the present state of Ireland it was most important to encourage the growth of flax in the South and West of Ireland, as well as in the North, where it had conferred so many benefits on the country.
  MR. ALDERMAN LUSKinsisted that the Vote was indefensible, and very much like a job; he moved that it be reduced to £1,000.
  Motion made, and Question,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £1,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, for encouraging the Cultivation of Flax in the South and West of Ireland."—(Mr. Lusk.)
  MR. ALDERMAN SALOMONShoped his hon. Friend would not press his Amendment, as he would probably stand alone.
  Motion put, and negatived.
  Original Question put, and agreed to.
  (16.) £780, Malta and Alexandria Telegraph and Telegraph Companies.
  (17.) £10,000, Collection of Agricultural Statistics, Great Britain.
  MR. READasked when the Returns for the present year would be published, and why the number of horses in Great Britain was not returned as was the case in Ireland? He thought the Returns should be made more trustworthy than at present, and include the correct acreage of the crops cultivated.
  MR. NEVILLE-GRENVILLEasked whether the Returns were all filled up?
  MR. BRADYsaid, an experienced farmer had told him that the Returns were useless, and that they would continue to be so unless made compulsory.
  MR. HUNTsaid, the Returns would no doubt be more complete if they were made compulsory instead of voluntary; but there was a great difficulty in the way of making them compulsory. This arrangement might, in fact, be considered only experimental at present. Since the cattle disease, however, the farmers had been more ready to make the Returns; but, as they were not yet in the form to be published, he could not say whether they were more complete.
  SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLENwished to know, whether the police could not be employed in England and Scotland as they were in Ireland in collecting this information?
  MR. STEPHEN CAVEsaid, that the Irish constabulary were a very different body from the English police. He did not think the farmers of England and Scotland would like to receive visits from the police in the place of the officers of Inland Revenue, who now obtained the statistics. It took some time to get these Returns in and to reduce them to a tabular form; but all depended on the willingness of the persons concerned to supply the information. The attempt to obtain these statistics was only made two years ago, and it was still to be regarded as an experiment.
  MR. READwished to know, why horses were not included?
  MR. STEPHEN CAVEbelieved that the Returns this year included more particulars than last year, and it might be possible another year to obtain particulars of horses. The reason why they were not included was, that it was deemed advisable to proceed by steps.
  Mr. GOLDNEYIn answer to Mr. GOLDNEY,
  MR. STEPHEN CAVEsaid, that the expenses of the statistics were pretty equally divided between the officers of Inland Revenue and the postage and printing of the Returns. The officers of Inland Revenue devoted a great deal of time, and incurred considerable expense, in obtaining these Returns.
  Vote agreed to.
  (18.) £791, to complete the sum for the Household of the late King of the Belgians.
  (19.) £791, to complete the sum for Miscellaneous Expenses formerly defrayed from Civil Contingencies.
  MR. MONKsaid, he observed an item in the Vote for £400 for Ross's Parliamentary Record. He presumed that was the publication which was to be found in the Library. If so, he thought it was a very inexpensive periodical, probably not costing more than 5s. or 10 s. for the Session. He wished to know, how many copies were necessary for the public departments? He should scarcely think £400 necessary for it, as it contained remarkably little information.
  MR. HUNTsaid, that the arrangement for this work was made a few years ago. In consequence, he believed, of a memorial presented to the late Lord Palmerston by a large number of Members of the House, there had been a Vote towards Mr. Ross's Parliamentary Record, it being supposed that the sale would not cover the expenses
  1908
  of the publication. At that time arrangements were made, he believed, for supplying 200 copies for the public departments. He was not certain as to the number; but that arrangement had continued ever since.
  SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLENsaid, that this was one of the most valuable periodical publications they had in connection with Parliamentary reports. He took much trouble in looking up Parliamentary matters, and it was always to the Parliamentary Record to which persons first referred to find what they wanted. Its price was to be accounted for by the great expense attending its production; in its having to be entirely re-printed weekly, as the Session progressed, in order to keep up the necessary information required from time to time.
  MR. CHILDERSsaid, that the publication was brought under the attention of the Treasury on the strong recommendation of a number of Members of Parliament and gentlemen connected with the public departments, whose acquaintance with Parliamentary business had been greatly facilitated by the simple but satisfactory publication that went on throughout the Session. It was essential to the public Departments that they should have a certain number of copies; and he was bound to say that he thought this was a very economical expenditure for a purpose of this kind. He wished to know, what the Government intended to do with regard to a small Committee appointed some time ago to examine into the system under which fees were received and accounted for, especially on appointments?
  MR. GOLDNEYreferred to the expense for robes, collars, badges, &c., for the Knights of the several Orders, and thought that that item ought to be included in the investigation which the hon. Member for Pontefract desired to be instituted.
  SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLENnoticed an item of £27 2s. for repairs to the Speaker's State carriage in 1860 and 1861, and wished to know, why the Bill had remained so long unpaid?
  MR. HUNTcould not say why the bill for the Speaker's coach was not paid before. Perhaps the credit was good, and the coachmaker did not send in his account. A small Treasury Commission had been appointed before the change of Government to inquire respecting fees chargeable on appointments to public offices, and they had not reported before the change took place. A short time ago the right hon.

  1909
  Gentleman the Member for the City, who was on the Commission, informed him that they were prepared to make a Report. It was not a Royal Commission, and the question was, did it not lapse by the change of Government? Another Commission so appointed had lapsed, and it was arranged that this Commission should be also considered as having lapsed, and that the Gentlemen composing it should, in a statement to the Government, set forth what they were prepared to report. That would be as good as a Report, and when received at the Treasury would be carefully considered for the purpose of seeing if they could carry out any suggestion that had been made.
  MR. ESMONDEcalled attention to the fact that gentlemen intending to be called to the Bar in Ireland paid a stamp duty there, which was supposed to be enough to cover the expense of the stamp required on account of certain necessary attendances in the Inns of Court in England. Nevertheless, the stamp duty was demanded from them in England, and then they had to go through some circuitous process to get the money repaid to them.
  MR. HUNTsaid, he was not aware that that was the case, but the subject would be inquired into if the hon. Member sent a memorandum respecting it to the Treasury.
  Vote agreed to.
  House resumed.
  Resolutions to be reported upon Thursday; Committee to sit again To-morrow, at Twelve of the clock.

  TURNPIKE ACTS CONTINUANCE BILL.
  (Mr. Secretary Gathorne Hardy, Mr. Sclater-Booth.)
  TURNPIKE ACTS CONTINUANCE BILL.

    [BILL 232.] SECOND READING.
    Order for Second Reading read.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
    MR. GOLDNEYwished that some definite statement were made on the part of the Government on this subject, and that Continuance Acts should be founded on some principle. At present they were wholly arbitrary.
    MR. KNATCHBULL - HUGESSENfelt that this subject was one which could only be satisfactorily dealt with by the Government, and in a large and comprehensive
    1910
    spirit. He objected to Continuance Bills as a principle. It would be best to read the Bill a second time, reserving to the House power to alter its details at a future stage. He should allow his own Bill on the same subject to be withdrawn.
    MR. LOCKEsaid, he would gladly have supported a Motion that this Bill be read a second time that day three months. Turnpike trusts appeared to be the most sacred institutions of the country, because there was the greatest difficulty in getting rid of any turnpike. He objected to these Continuance Bills.
    MR. DODSONhoped that the time would arrive when all turnpikes would be swept away, but until that time arrived Turnpike Acts must remain in force, otherwise, the roads could not be kept in repair. The question was one for the Government to deal with, and he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman opposite would give his serious consideration to the subject, and would be prepared next Session to bring in a Bill dealing with the question as a whole.
    MR. GATHORNE HARDYsaid, it might be desirable to abolish turnpikes at some future date; but the hon. and learned Member for Southwark should recollect in what condition most of the country roads were before the institution of turnpikes. None of the parishes would have been able to afford the expense of changing the roads from "soft roads" into the excellent highways they now were. In drawing up a scheme for the abolition of turnpikes, it was necessary to recollect that parishes had frequently no interest whatever in a road which passed through them for the accommodation of heavy traffic, passing perhaps between a coal-pit and wharf, and it would be hard upon parishes to compel them to repair such roads, from which they might not derive any benefit whatever. With regard to the loans upon turnpike trusts, Parliament had dealt with them as something more than mere temporary arrangements by providing for the future management of the interest upon them. To throw the expense of repairing the roads upon the parishes would in some cases more than quadruple the rates at one stroke. He agreed with the statement that if the subject were to be dealt with in a comprehensive manner the area of rating should be enlarged; but he hoped those who objected to the trust would put their objections on the Paper, so that he

    1911
    could look up the Papers in the cases raised and argue the matter fully. He promised to give the subject his serious attention during the Recess.
    Motion agreed to.
    Bill read a second time, and committed for Thursday.

  COURTS OF LAW OFFICERS (IRELAND) BILL.
  (Mr. Attorney General for Ireland, Lord Naas.)
  COURTS OF LAW OFFICERS (IRELAND) BILL.

    [BILL 178.] THIRD READING.
    Order for Third Reading read.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a third time."
    SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLENasked what had been done with respect to a memorial praying the Treasury to increase the salary of the Taxing Master of the Common Law Courts of Ireland?
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. CHATTERTON)said, the Returns called for in the case showed that the business of the office annually decreased, so that it was thought improper to make the increase asked for.
    MR. MURPHYpointed out that the Returns of business done were inaccurate, because only those cases in which duty or taxation was paid were returned.
    Motion agreed to.
    Bill read the third time, and passed.

  COUNTY COURTS ACTS AMENDMENT BILL (Lords)— [BILL 212].

    COMMITTEE.
    Order for Committee read.
    Clauses 1 to 4 agreed to.
    Clause 5 (Costs not recoverable in Superior Courts where less than £20 on Contract or £10 on Tort).
    MR. AYRTONasked whether the provisions contained in it were to apply to the Westminster Courts only, and not to other courts where high rates of costs were in vogue?
    THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, it would be necessary to make very extensive inquiries in order to ascertain in what Courts the higher scale of costs prevailed, so that it was thought expedient to confine the operations of this Bill to the London Courts.
    Clause agreed to.
    Clause 6 agreed to.
    Clause 7 (In certain Cases Judge of Superior Courts may order Cause to be tried in County Court).
    MR. NEWDEGATEobserved that the purpose of this Bill was to increase the jurisdiction of the County Courts. There was also another Bill before the House providing for compensation being granted for the abolition of certain offices in Manorial Courts. If it were the pleasure of the House to increase the duties of these persons, surely they had a right to present their claims and show the additional duties that would be cast upon them. The retiring allowance they were to receive was calculated on the smaller scale upon which they were now remunerated; and if Parliament went on increasing jurisdiction it would be right that the salaries of the officers should be increased in proportion, and their retiring allowances in a corresponding ratio.
    SIR ROUNDELL PALMERthought that no encouragement should be given by the House to the maxim, that if it should be found necessary to re-adjust the duties of the officers of certain Courts, therefore the salaries should be re-adjusted. It was proper that all officials should be adequately remunerated, and if existing remuneration was inadequate, that might form a ground for seeking an increase of salary. It ought to be generally understood that gentlemen who accepted these offices were bound to perform the duties which Parliament might impose upon them. While he desired that they should be fairly remunerated, he protested against making every measure which gave them new jurisdiction an occasion to increase their salaries.
    MR. NEWDEGATEbegged the Committee to remember the restriction of plaints coming before the County Courts in the first instance, and to consider that in some cases a man was called upon to abandon all private practice.
    THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, that the registrars gave up the whole of their time to the performance of their functions; but he agreed with his hon. and learned Friend that if Parliament thought fit to increase their duties it was hardly fair to come to that House and claim additional salary. Fresh duties were constantly imposed upon the Judges of the Superior Courts, but no claim for additional salary was ever made by them. At the same time additional duties had been thrown upon the registrars, and the subject had been brought under his consideration

    1913
    in consequence of an application made by them. Under the Act of Parliament a discretionary power was given to the Lord Chancellor, and it was only fair that when additional powers were thrown upon the registrars they should have an additional salary if it were thought right by the Lord Chancellor to give it to them.
    Clause agreed to.
    Clause 8 agreed to.
    Clause 9 (Suits in which Jurisdiction under 28 & 29 Vict. c. 99 may be exercised).
    MR. AYRTONthought that the clause might be omitted. In point of fact it proposed to exclude the great body of the people from obtaining justice in the Superior Courts, and compelled them to have recourse to the County Courts. The clause, in his opinion, was so objectionable that he should move to have it struck out.
    SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLENhoped that the Government would persevere with this clause, believing it to be one of the most important clauses of the Bill. The object of this provision was to prevent those frivolous and unfounded claims being made which under the present system were so often made the subject of actions in these Courts.
    THE ATTORNEY GENERALwas of opinion that the clause would be found a useful provision. It was a common practice in respect to the offences named in the clause for an attorney to bring an action for the plaintiff, and the defendant was mulcted in a considerable sum of money, as the plaintiff in many a case, was unable to pay the costs. The Judge might be trusted not to make the order for security, if he saw that there was reasonable cause for action.
    MR. AYRTONasked whether the Attorney General would consent to introduce into the clause words signifying that security for costs should not be required in case the Judge was satisfied that the cause was a proper one to be tried in a Superior Court of Law.
    THE ATTORNEY GENERALconsented to the introduction of the words.
    Clause, as amended, agreed to.
    Clauses 11 to 23, inclusive, agreed to.
    Clauses 24, 25, and 26 postponed.
    Clauses 27 and 28, agreed to.
    Clause 29 (Repeal of so much of 3 & 4 Vict. c. 110 as enables Loans to be Recovered before Justices).
    MR. OSBORNEmoved the omission of this clause, on the ground that it struck at the root of all the loan societies, which were so great a convenience to the working classes. No less than £500,000 was in the hands of the borrowers, from these societies, for which interest was paid at the rate of 6 per cent.
    THE ATTORNEY GENERALconsented to the clause being struck out.
    MR. BRADYsaid that the loan societies which the hon. Member had praised so much had been the ruin of many an honest hard-working artizan as they extracted 40 or 50 per cent from the borrower.
    MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, if loan societies were bad things the Government might bring in a Bill to abolish them, but there was no necessity for worrying them by increasing their law expenses.
    Clause negatived.
    Clause 30 (Repeal of Enactments in Schedule (C.).
    MR. MONKsaid that this clause proposed to abolish the power of County Courts to imprison for debt. He thought such an alteration in the law would operate very hardly upon the poor, who would be unable to obtain credit if it were effected.
    THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid the hon. Gentleman had entirely misunderstood the effect of the clause, which did not abolish the power of the County Courts to imprison for debt.
    Clause agreed to.
    Clause 31 agreed to.
    Clause 32 postponed.
    Clause 33 agreed to.
    House resumed.
    Committee report Progress, to sit again To-morrow.

  DISTRICT LUNATIC ASYLUMS OFFICERS (IRELAND) BILL— [BILL 242.]
  (Lord Naas, Mr. Attorney General for Ireland)
  DISTRICT LUNATIC ASYLUMS OFFICERS (IRELAND) BILL— [BILL 242.]

    COMMITTEE.
    Order for Committee read.
    MR. BRADYsuggested, that a clause should be introduced providing that the taxation for these institutions should be divided between landlord and tenant.
    Bill considered in Committee.
    (In the Committee.)
    Clause 2 (Power to Lord Lieutenant in Council to determine Staff of Officers and Servants of District Lunatic Asylum).
    Mr. BRADYIn answer to Mr. BRADY,
    LORD NAASsaid, the question of taxation did not in any way arise in the Bill, and it would be impossible to deal with so large a question under it.
    Clause agreed to.
    Clause 3 (Appointment of Resident Medical Superintendent and Visiting Physician and other Officers and Servants).
    MR. MURPHYmoved the omission of the words "or visiting physicians." By this clause power was given to the Lord-Lieutenant, when vacancies occurred in these asylums, to appoint a resident medical superintendent or visiting physician. He thought the gentry resident in the locality would be the best parties to choose the name of the latter officer, to be sent to the Government for approval.
    LORD NAASwas prepared to give way to the hon. Gentleman's suggestion.
    MR. MURPHYmoved an Amendment to exclude the district asylum for the city and county of Cork, with the view of proposing the addition of a clause giving to the board of governors of that institution the power of appointing their own officers.
    LORD NAASopposed the Amendment on the ground that the Cork Lunatic Asylum did not differ from others in Ireland, and therefore ought not to be excepted.
    MR. MURPHYwould not trouble the Committee to divide.
    Clause, as amended, agreed to.
    Remaining clauses agreed to.
    Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Friday, and to be printed. [Bill 269.]
    House adjourned at Two o'Clock.