Commons Sitting of 15 August 1867

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Royal Military Canal* [313].
Committee—Parks Regulation (re-comm.) [273] [no Report]; Traffic Regulation (Metropolis)* [97]; Royal Military Canal* [313].
Report—Traffic Regulation (Metropolis)* [97]; Royal Military Canal* [313].
Considered as amended—Agricultural Gangs* [310]; Consecration of Churches and Churchyards [276].
Third Reading—Agricultural Gangs* [310]; County Courts Acts Amendment* [212]; Consecration of Churches and Churchyards [276].
Withdrawn—London Coal and Wine Duties Continuance* [43]; Thames Embankment and Metropolis (Loans)* [56]; Representation of the People (Scotland)* [302].
The House met at Two of the Clock.

NAVY—CHIEF ADMIRALTY CHEMIST AT PORTSMOUTH DOCKYARD.

  QUESTION.
  MR. ALDERMAN LUSKsaid, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty, If he could inform the House whether Mr. Hay, the Chief Admiralty Chemist at Portsmouth Dockyard, is the Mr. Hay who is advertised as a Director of the Maritime and General Improvement Company (Limited), 9, Bush Lane, City, E.C.,
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  and the proprietor of "Hay's Protecting Varnish, Antifouling Composition, Rodian Paint, &c.," and whose compositions for coating ships have "met with the approval of the Lords of the Admiralty," and are "in general use for iron ships in the Royal Navy;" and, further, are "the standards of comparison for all other compositions;" and, if so, who is the judge of the qualities of the compositions used for coating Her Majesty's Ships?
  MR. CORRY, in reply, said, he had given directions that a letter should be written to Mr. Hay inquiring whether he was a director of the company referred to, and informing him that, if so, he would be called upon to choose between the position which he held as Admiralty chemist at Portsmouth and director of the company, as the two were incompatible.

IMPRISONMENT FOR CHURCH RATES.

  QUESTION.
  MR. ALDERMAN LUSKasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, If his attention has been drawn to the case of Mr. Phocion Foster, farmer, of North Currey, a prisoner in Taunton Gaol for non-payment of 15 s. 7¾d. Church Rate, £147 6s. 1½d. costs, and £1 15 s. for a monition—total, £149 16 s. 9¼d.; and to the case of Mr. James Brighton Grant, a prisoner since 15th of March last in White Cross Street Prison for £1 13 s. Church Rate, and £257 costs, as stated in his Petition to this House on 6th June last; and, whether the Government will adopt measures for the early release of these prisoners?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: The attention of Her Majesty's Government has not been drawn to the circumstances of these two cases except by the inquiry of the hon. Gentleman. They have not been brought under the notice either of the Treasury or of the Secretary of State, and therefore I can only say that it appears to me the persons who complain of their grievances have been very ill-advised by their professional assistants.

YELLOW FEVER AT BERMUDA.

  QUESTION.
  ADMIRAL ERSKINEsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, Whether any steps have been taken, in consequence of the Report of a Commission made to the Governor of Bermuda on the subject of the outbreak of yellow

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  fever in that colony in 1864 (and which was laid upon the table of this House in June 1866), to mark the sense of the Government of the neglect therein referred to on the part of some of the authorities, or if any measures have been adopted with a view of mitigating the effects of such a visitation should it unhappily recur?
  MR. ADDERLEY, in reply, said, the Secretary for War had requested him to answer this Question. Two local Reports had been referred to the Army Sanitary Committee, who forwarded their comments on them to the War Office in June last. That Committee stated that the local Government appeared to be taking very active steps for the improvement of the sanitary condition of St. George. Nevertheless, it was evident that a much larger and more systematic plan for the supply of water and the drainage of the town was necessary, and the Army Sanitary Committee accordingly recommended that the first stop to accomplish these objects should be a survey of the town. These recommendations of the Committee had been sent to the Governor of Bermuda, with a request that he would take immediate steps to carry them into effect.

  EAST INDIA, CHINA, AND AUSTRALIAN MAILS.—QUESTION.
  MR. LAIRDsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether, before coming to any decision as to accepting Tenders for the conveyance of the East India, China, and Australian Mails, Her Majesty's Government will afford the House an opportunity next Session of giving an opinion on the subject; and, if in consequence of postponing the decision, any temporary arrangement may be requisite for the conveyance of the Mails, whether Her Majesty's Government have made or are prepared to make such arrangement; also, whether the hon. Gentleman knows what is the nature of the arrangement contemplated by the Government with the Messageries Impériales with regard to the conveyance of the China Mails?
  MR. HUNT: With regard to the first Question, I have to state that there is no difficulty at present with regard to the Australian mails, because no notice has been given to terminate that contract. With regard to the East India and China mails, the position of affairs is this—that the present contract, according to notice,
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  will terminate on the 2nd of February next, and the House of Commons will not have, therefore, an opportunity of expressing an opinion on the new contract till after the contract has been made. This result was not foreseen at the time the notice was given; but had it been foreseen, I am not aware that it could have been avoided—for this reason, that before we gave the notice we received a communication from the Peninsular and Oriental Company, that if we did not give them notice they would give us notice. Therefore a new contract was necessary. But in consequence of the expression of opinion on the part of Members of the House that it was very undesirable that the contract should be executed till the House of Commons had expressed an opinion upon it, Her Majesty's Government have been anxious to see whether some temporary arrangement could not be made in order to give the House that opportunity. Accordingly, immediately after the debate in the House, communications were opened with the Peninsular and Oriental Company, inquiring whether they were willing to continue the service for another six months. Only yesterday we received an answer from that Company, in which they expressed their willingness to continue the service for six months, but on such terms as I think the House will consider totally out of the question. They say that if they are to continue the service for six months, they will expect a subsidy of 10 s. a mile, which would be at the rate of £280,000 a year, in addition to the present subsidy. Her Majesty's Government think the terms are so exorbitant that they are unable to accede to this proposition; but they will continue their efforts to make a temporary arrangement so as to give the House an oportunity for such an expression of opinion as they desire. With regard to the last Question—what was the nature of the arrangement contemplated with, regard to the China mails—all that the Government has done in the matter, is to endeavour to carry out the recommendation of the Committee who sat last Session. The Report of that Committee was taken as the text book. With regard to the making use of the French company, they were led to believe that such an arrangement was the wish of the Committee. The terms of the Report and the questions asked of the witnesses all tended to show that it was the wish of the Committee that we should avail ourselves of the

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  French service to China and Japan. An impression got abroad that it was the desire to hand over the whole of the services to India and China if the French tender was lower than the English. But the Government never contemplated anything of the kind. What they did was this—Having regard to the recommendation of the Committee, the Post Office Department sent the terms to the French Company to allow them to make an offer; and secondly, there had been semi-official communications opened with the French Government on the subject. These communications have not been of a formal or departmental character. We were feeling our way as to whether we could make terms with the French Government on terms of mutual advantage. The fact is, the Messageries Impériales can make no tender without the consent of the French Government, because we require a service to China once in two weeks whereas the French run only once a calendar month. But supposing the French Government permitted the Company to alter the time of departure, it would be possible for them to tender. At present there is a ruinous competition between the English and the French Companies with regard to the China service; and, if both are to be continued for the honour and glory of the respective flags, each country will have to pay for this competition by means of a large subsidy. Her Majesty's Government thought that an amicable arrangement might be made on terms of reciprocity, by which the vessels of each country should convey the mails in alternate fortnights. I believe this would be an arrangement of mutual advantage, and would relieve both nations from the necessity of paying a high subsidy. I still think that such an arrangement may be carried out if the House do not object. I think the arrangement would be far more economical than the present; and I do not think there would be anything unfair to the English Company.
  MR. BAILLIE COCHRANEasked whether the Government had considered the important question which would arise if the contract with the Peninsular and Oriental Company were to cease before other arrangements were entered into.
  MR. AYRTONasked whether the Government had contemplated a failure in their negotiations, and the chance that the Peninsular and Oriental Company would take advantage of the circumstances by asking an exorbitant price; and whether
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  the Government had thought of availing itself of the transport vessels plying between India and Suez, for the purpose of carrying the mails? His impression was that the arrangement he had suggested would prove the most economical that could possibly be made.
  MR. HUNTsaid, he would prefer answering that question at another time.
  MR. LAIRDasked, whether the Government would lay before the House the arrangement they proposed to make with a foreign company before it was finally concluded?
  MR. HUNTsaid, that depended on whether the Government was able to make a temporary arrangement. It would do so if possible, and then Parliament would have an opportunity of considering the basis of the future contract.
  MR. CHILDERSasked whether the Government anticipated making any arrangement with the French company?
  MR. HUNTrepeated that the Government wished to have all the different schemes before it, and to consider them on their merits; in asking for tenders the Government had distinctly stated that it could not be bound at present.

POLICE SUPERANNUATION FUNDS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. HOWESsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether his attention has been directed to the state of the Police Superannuation Funds in counties and boroughs; and, whether he intends to bring in a Bill upon the subject next Session?
  MR. GATHORNE HARDY, in reply, said, he had received Reports from the inspectors on the subject, but thought much more inquiry was necessary, and could not say what course it would be thought necessary to adopt.

SCOTCH JUDICIAL ANNUAL RETURNS.

  QUESTION.
  COLONEL SYKESsaid, he would beg to ask the hon. Member for Peeblesshire, What progress has been made in adapting the form of the Scotch Judicial Annual Returns to those of England, as promised some Sessions back by the Lord Advocate?
  SIR GRAHAM MONTGOMERY, in reply, stated, that no progress had been made in the direction indicated, and was not aware that any promise had been

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  made; but, from a Report of the Crown Agent of Scotland, dated the 24th of July, 1863, he found that two volumes of statistics were in the Home Office, one relating to police and the other to common law and equity. Consideration would be given to the question as to what steps should be taken to secure a compilation of the statistics.
  COLONEL SYKESsaid, that at present the Scotch statistics were absolutely useless, from the form in which they were set out.
  SIR GRAHAM MONTGOMERYpromised that the matter should be dealt with next Session.

  ARMY—LATE INSPECTION OF CHATHAM GARRISON.—QUESTION.
  MR. DARBY GRIFFITHsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, Whether his attention has been called to a published account of an inspection of the Chatham Garrison on the 10th August, by which it appears that the men having been on the ground from eleven o'clock a.m. till after two o'clock in the afternoon, carrying their knapsacks in full marching order, a number of men were compelled to fallout during the inspection in consequence of the intense heat, and were attended by the members of the Medical Staff Corps; and, whether he does not think that means might be found to avoid the exposure of men to the sun, during the hottest part of the day, for the purpose only of a general inspection?
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he had some difficulty in answering this Question, because he doubted whether the hon. Member was serious in putting it. From all he had heard of the inspection of the 10th, those engaged in it congratulated themselves on having had a fine day. It was a little warmer than usual, and some of the men were perhaps oppressed by the heat to some extent; but he had heard nothing to lead him to believe that the men had in any way suffered, and it should be remembered that the Commander-in-Chief and the Staff were exposed at least as much, and perhaps to a greater extent, than the men. No doubt there were means of "avoiding the exposure of men to the sun;" but he could hardly imagine that the hon. Gentleman would seriously recommend an umbrella to be included in the equipment of the British soldier, or that soldiers should not be called under
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  arms if it happened to be a little warmer than usual. The only serious Answer he could give to the Question was, that he felt the most perfect confidence that neither the Commander-in-Chief nor any officer would unnecessarily expose his men.

  ARMY—VOLUNTEERS' CAPITATION GRANT.—QUESTION.
  MR. SCHREIBERsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, Whether any portion of the Capitation Grant is at present paid to Volunteers on account for the current year; and, if not, whether, in his opinion, it will be practicable for the future to make payable yearly upon the 1st of June a portion of the said Grant, not exceeding one-half of the amount earned by each Corps of Volunteers for the year ending the 30th of November last preceding?
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTON: In answer to the first part of the Question of the hon. Member, I have to say that no part of the capitation grant is now paid during the current year. With reference to the latter part of the Question, I am in hopes that the course he has suggested may be rendered unnecessary by the altered mode of payment which I stated a few evenings ago that I had determined to adopt. There can be no doubt that there has been great and, in some cases, vexatious delay as regards these payments. I heard it suggested in this House that payments have been delayed two years and even longer. By the new mode of payment the efficients who are reported in December will be paid for as soon as the Estimates for the following spring are voted. The utmost delay, therefore, which can take place will be a period of six months.

  NAVY—NAVAL ARSENALS AND DOCKYARDS.—QUESTION.
  MR. O'BEIRNEsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, Whether the experiments to be made as agreed to by him in the recent discussion upon the defences of our Naval Arsenals and Dockyards will be against targets of stone and iron accurately representing the forts now being erected, or which have been contracted for at Portsmouth, Plymouth, Portland, and Pembroke; and, whether he will suspend the further prosecution of the works upon the forts until the result

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  of the proposed experiments shall be ascertained?
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTON: I have already given directions regarding the experiments to which the hon. Member refers. These will be made against forts accurately representing both the iron walls of the fort at Plymouth, and also the shields proposed for the forts in course of erection. The experiments will be made by firing from the heaviest guns now carried by any of our ships of war, and within as short a range as it is probable or possible that ships of war could approach these forts. Under these circumstances, the hon. Gentleman, I think, will admit that the experiments will be fairly made. With respect to the second part of the Question, I have no intention of suspending the works. It would be undesirable to do this, partly because the experiments will be made without any delay, and also because great inconvenience would result from the suspension of the works; while, on the other hand, if the result of the experiments should show that the shields and iron walls are not so strong as they ought to be, there will be no difficulty in so arranging the contracts as to provide for increasing their strength.
  LORD ELCHO: If the experiments are to test the iron shields, I should like to ask whether they will be confined to iron shields alone, or whether experiments will be made as if against the section of the fort, in accordance with the suggestion I threw out during the recent debate, otherwise the test would only speak as to the strength of the shield, and would afford no evidence of the capacity of the resistance of the breast-work, girders, pillars, &c, supporting the structure. I should also like to know, whether when the right hon. Gentleman said the trials would be made with the heaviest guns now carried, he mean the heaviest guns in our service only, or intended to include those carried by vessels of other Powers?
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTON: There is no reason to suppose that the vessels of any foreign Power carry guns heavier than our own naval gun of 12½ tons, with which I propose that the experiments should be conducted. The noble Lord is desirous that those experiments should be carried further. He cannot be more anxious than I am to carry them to the full extent, in order that the tests may be as full and fair as possible, and if my noble Friend can offer any suggestions upon this object,
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  I shall be glad to confer with the noble Lord in private.
  COLONEL SYKES: Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman that the granite walls are not to have shields at all?
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTON: There is no intention of placing iron shields on the surface of granite walls. The shields of which I am speaking, of which so much has been heard during the recent discussions in this House, are shields that fill up the embrasures of the fortifications.
  MR. O'BEIRNE: Will the experiments include a section of the forts built of granite, into which the shields are to be let? Because they would be very unsatisfactory unless some proof was ascertained of the strength of the granite fronts of the fort under fire.

  APPOINTMENT OF JUDGE OF THE ADMIRALTY COURT.—QUESTION.
  MR. GRAVESsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, When the appointment of Judge of the Admiralty Court will be completed, as much inconvenience is being experienced by the delay?
  MR. GATHORNE HARDYsaid, that in consequence of the Question put by his hon. Friend he had endeavoured to gain information as to how the matter stood. No appointment had yet been made, but he believed the patent was already made out.

  NAVY — ADMIRALTY CONTRACTS—MARINE ENGINES.—QUESTION.
  MR. GRAVESsaid, his right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty had somewhat misconceived the nature of the Question which he put to him on the previous day. He therefore begged to ask, If a pair of engines of about 700-horse power, ordered from Messrs. Napier and Co., about six years since, are still tying in their factory; and, if so, to state what ship they were intended for and why they have not been used; and, whether these engines were not recently offered for resale to Messrs. Napier and Co.; and, if so, to state the price offered by that firm?
  MR. CORRYexplained that he had understood the second part of the hon. Member's former Question to hinge on the first portion, to which he had given a negative reply. The engines referred to were ordered in 1860, and were still lying in the factory of the Messrs. Napier; they had been intended for a frigate which, after standing

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  for four years, was taken down in 1864, in consequence of the introduction of armour-plated ships. The reason these engines were not used on board another ship was that they were of old construction, without the modern improvements; and, in the opinion of the Controller of the Navy, it would be impossible to put them into any ship now building, while it would be most un advisable to build a ship for them. In the course of the present year Messrs. Napier offered £10,000 for the engines; but in the opinion of the Controller of the Navy that sum was insufficient.
  MR. GRAVESasked what price had been paid for these engines?
  MR. CORRYsaid, the contract price for the engines themselves was £28,880, exclusive of £2,321 for completing and fitting them on board. The former sum was paid, but the latter expense of course had not been incurred.

NAVY—MARINE DEPOT AT DEAL.

  QUESTION.
  MR. BRADYsaid, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether it is in contemplation to augment the force at the Marine Depôt at Deal; and, if so, what amount of cubic space will the Barracks admit of being allotted to each man; whether it is true that the Staff Surgeon of the Royal Navy doing duty with the Marines at Deal has been deprived of the quarters occupied by his predecessors, and is thereby compelled to reside at a considerable distance fom his duties; and, how the gardens belonging to the Royal Marine Buildings are apportioned, and by whom occupied?
  MR. CORRYsaid, it was not in contemplation to augment the force at the Marine Depôt at Deal. At present the barrack space was 600 cubic feet for each man, which is more than is considered necessary; but, in consequence of the insufficient size of the mess room it had been proposed to enlarge it. It is true that the quarters formerly occupied by a staff surgeon have been assigned to two captains and two subalterns, the reason being that it was considered more conducive to discipline that they should reside within the barracks, and it was not thought necessary that more than one medical officer should do so.
  MR. BRADYsaid, he was given to understand that the captain in command occupied two houses, and had also portions of two gardens.
  MR. CORRYsaid, he was not prepared to speak with certainty as to the gardens, but thought there must be some mistake in the allegation.

  THE NEW LAW COURTS.—QUESTION.
  MR. CANDLISHsaid, he would beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works, Whether, seeing that the designs selected for recommendation, are at variance with the Resolutions of the Royal Commission, and have not met with the approval bestowed upon others by the Judges and Officers of the several Departments, seeing also that the element of cost has been ignored in the selection, the Report of the Judges of Designs having been made before the several estimates had been tested by the Surveyor appointed by the Treasury, whose Report is in favour of the design approved by the Commission, Her Majesty's Government will re-consider the Question, and again consult the Royal Commission before any further step is taken; and, whether the Surveyor's Report of the cost of such plan will be printed, and distributed to Members? He apologized to the House for the somewhat obscure framing of that Question, which had been put into the hands of the Clerk at the Table without the necessary revision. He begged now to put to the noble Lord the First Commissioner of Works the various points involved in that Question in a more direct and intelligible form.
  LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, he hoped the hon. Gentleman would excuse him for not entering into what he might call the controversial part of his Question, which ought, indeed, properly to have been addressed to the Secretary of the Treasury, as the Treasury and not the Office of Works was now in communication with the Judges of Designs. He understood the fasts to be these—The Judges of Designs had sent in a Report to the Treasury which was not regarded as carrying out fully the duties imposed upon those Judges. That view had been made known by the Treasury to the Judges of Designs, but there had been no time yet for any reply to be returned. Under those circumstances, it was impossible for the Government at present to comply with the suggestions of the hon. Member.
  MR. CANDLISHasked, whether there would be any objection to produce the Surveyor's Report as to the cost of the various designs submitted to him?
  LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, he thought it would be better not to submit those plans, designs, or reports piecemeal to the House, but that they should be produced, when the proper time came, altogether.
  SIR PATRICK O'BRIENasked, whether it was true that they were to have plans made up partly out of one design and partly out of another?
  LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, that was exactly the point touched by the hon. Member's Question.

METROPOLITAN COMMON FUND.

  QUESTION.
  MR. ALDERMAN LAWRENCEsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary to the Poor Law Board, Whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce a measure in the next Session of Parliament to compel those metropolitan parishes not included in the Union Assessment Act to re-assess the property in their areas in order that the rates payable to the Common Fund may be levied throughout the Metropolis on a fair and equal basis?
  MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, that inquiries were now being made by the Poor Law Board for the purpose of ascertaining on what basis contributions to the Common Fund could be most fairly levied. It was probable that the Government would find it necessary to produce a measure on the subject in the course of the next Session.

  PARKS REGULATION (re-committed) BILL
  (Mr. Secretary Walpole, Lord John Manners, Mr. Attorney General.)

  [BILL 273.] COMMITTEE.
  Order for Committee read.
  Bill again considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  MR. DENMAN: Sir, it is with the greatest reluctance that I rise to repeat the Motion which was made yesterday, that you do now leave the Chair. If there were any other mode in which I could, according to Parliamentary usage, express my conviction that the Bill ought not to be proceeded with at this period of the Session, I would have adopted it; but I am assured that I cannot now move the Previous Question, and that this is the only course open to me. I must express my disappointment that the Government have not withdrawn this Bill in deference
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  to what I believe is the general feeling. [Cries of "No, no!"] At all events, it is the feeling of a considerable section of the House, and of multitudes out - of-doors. I will endeavour so to deal with the two questions involved as to convince even my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary that this is a question which ought not to be pressed on at the fag-end of the Session against the opinion even of the minority of the House. First, with regard to the question itself, there are some points about which we are all agreed, or, at least, about which there can be very little controversy among persons of candid minds. It is undoubtedly a question of the utmost delicacy and importance. After giving the Government credit, as I do, for having made every effort to conciliate their opponents by removing some of the most unpalatable portions of the Bill, the fact remains that the widest differences of opinion still exist as to the first principles by which we should be guided on a very nice and difficult question. I cannot at all assent to the opinion of those who maintain that the right of public meeting is not, to a great extent, involved in the course we may take upon this Bill. It is all very well to say that there is a legal right to meet, which this Bill does not touch; but, if the Bill restricts that right in every place in which the right can practically be exorcised, it would be unfair to deny that it does, so far as London is concerned, affect the right of public meeting. My right hon. Friend spoke of the practice of meeting in Hyde Park as one of modern origin, placing it as late as the year 1855. But Hyde Park was, more than a century ago, and until a comparatively recent period, used by the public for many purposes for which of late it has not been used. I have myself seen in old newspapers many advertisements showing that fairs, cricket-matches, boxing-matches, and other amusements used to be freely carried on there. If it is only since 1855 that Hyde Park has been much resorted to for public meetings, that fact may be partly accounted for by the inclosure of many other spaces for gardens, such as Kennington Common, and other like spaces, and the extension of building in all directions, which has left no other I convenient open place for holding a large meeting. It is nothing to the purpose to say that Primrose Hill is a convenient place; because I believe there is the same power in the authorities who have the

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  management of Primrose Hill to exclude the public as exists in the case of the Parks enumerated in this Bill. Therefore, I do consider—and I do not believe that it can be denied—that, so far as the metropolis is concerned, the right of public meeting may be seriously affected by this Bill. Now, I am one of those who hold that right to be one of almost sacred importance, and that for three main reasons—firstty, because we cannot always be secure against the renewal of attempts, such as once were common, to force unjust and tyrannical measures upon the people, and in such cases large public meetings are the best modes of expressing public indignation, and thus preventing arbitrary and oppressive legislation; secondly, because there are occasions on which the feelings of some large class of the community are entirely misunderstood and misrepresented; and it is then of the utmost importance that that class should have the opportunity of assembling in such numbers as to disabuse the mind of the richer and more influential classes of the erroneous notion as to their feelings which has been in circulation. A notable instance of this took place last year. No one of the Gentle men I see opposite, if he will deal candidly with me, will deny that one of the main arguments used against Reform last year was that the unenfranchised classes were almost entirely indifferent about the extension of the franchise. None will deny that the meetings which have since taken place have gone a long way to convince many of them to the contrary. But beyond all this, comes a third and a very powerful reason. These meetings of large masses of people act powerfully as safety-valves, and give an opportunity of "blowing off the steam" which, if pent up in rooms and dwellings, would be far more liable to dangerous explosion. On a late occasion, when some 23,000 people marched to a place not half so convenient as Hyde Park, to show their interest in Reform, I noticed that many of their banners were inscribed with jokes of an amusing kind. One of them, the banner of the Cabinetmakers, ran—"The people are resolved to be their own Cabinet-makers." How much better that such a sentiment should appear as a joke upon a banner than that there should be no public opportunity of giving it vent. It was surely wiser to let the matter pass off in such a way, than if that whole multitude had been confined to warehouses and workshops, and told that
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  they would be violating the law if they held a meeting in the open air. If the people had not been shut out of Hyde Park last year, I am convinced that no need would have arisen to be now seriously considering this difficult question. But when the gates were so ill-advisedly closed, and the irruption followed, the question was at once unfortunately and unnecessarily raised as to the right of the public to be there at all. Now, Sir, I have appealed to the candour of hon. Gentlemen opposite, and in discussing the question of right, I will myself speak with equal candour. Any lawyer, I will admit, would be departing gravely from his duty if he expressed any doubt that, so far as strict law is concerned, Hyde Park is vested in Her Majesty, and that persons duly authorized by Her Majesty may close that Park when they please. But, on the other hand, no one can fairly deny that there are some equitable, or, at least, moral rights, on the part of the people which practically render it wholly impossible to deal with Hyde Park precisely in the same way as though it were the private garden of Buckingham Palace, or any other portion of the private property of Her Majesty. Suppose it were not the property of the Sovereign but of some private person, it has been so dealt with, in many respects, that a dedication to the public would be presumed. Roads and paths have been opened and used in all directions, and repaired at the public expense. Enormous sums of the public money have been laid out on improving Hyde Park. Hence Parliament is bound to look at this question as one in which the public has an interest, even independent of the right of public meeting. Such being the nature of the questions involved in this Bill, I will now state my reasons for urgently appealing to Her Majesty's Government not to press on this Bill during the short residue of the present Session. I have already shown that the questions involved are of a difficult, delicate, and complicated nature. On the one hand, the practical right of holding public meetings in the metropolis; on the other hand, the relative rights, legal, equitable, and moral, of the Crown and the people. I cannot conceive matters more fit for a calm and deliberate inquiry before an impartial Committee, or more unfit for a hasty and hurried decision in a thin House by a party vote. It is notorious that at this period of the Session the Government

  1575
  can carry any measure on which they may set their heart; swamping all opposition by a majority composed mainly of themselves. Only two nights ago they carried the rejection of a Lords' Amendment, approved of by everybody who knew anything of the subject, and supported by their own Chancellor in the Lords, at the instance of the Attorney General for Ireland. Their majority consisted of 33, the minority of 25; but when I counted the division list, I found that twenty votes out of those thirty-three were the votes of actual members of the Government. Who, then, would be satisfied with this Bill if it were to be forced down our throats by the Government at this period of the Session, merely by means of the majority at their back? But it is said, "The Bill is much less stringent than it was," and "We are prepared to concede one thing and another." Sir, I recognize in the Government a spirit of conciliation as regards the matter of the Bill; but the questions are too important and too delicate to be settled by a compromise of the Government on the one part and a mere handful of Members on the other. If this Bill had been brought forward quite early in the Session, with no Reform Bill in the way, would anyone have ever thought of proceeding with it after twelve o'clock at night? Certainly not; and why? Because at that hour the number of Members present would not have been sufficient for the discussion of a subject of such importance. Why, then, should we be forced to go on with the Bill now, when at no time is there an attendance equal to that which at an earlier period of the Session is deemed wholly insufficient? Besides all this, the Bill in its present shape, even without the Amendments now — as I understand—to be proposed, is a totally different Bill from that originally laid before the House. Had the House proceeded with this Bill earlier in the Session, can any human being doubt that, as a matter of course, it would have been referred to a Select Committee. But what time is there for a Select Committee now to consider this Bill? Again, suppose that we should, in the course of the next day or two, send the Bill to the House of Lords, what possible opportunity will the House of Lords have to consider the various questions arising for their consideration? It would be a simple mockery to ask them to do so in the time allotted for the task. Then, as to the Bill itself, I have before
  1576
  me the first and the second edition, but as to the third, of which I hear, it is even yet not in print. From what I hear of the proposed alterations in the clauses, they would by no means remove my main objection to the Bill. The Bill gives powers, the extent and nature of which are entirely unlimited and undefined. By passing this Bill, Parliament would not have the slightest notion what it would be doing. It contains, in effect, a power to the ranger of the Park, with the assent of the Home Secretary, to make by-laws, the nature and extent of which it is impossible to guess. One ranger and one Home Secretary might be easily influenced by panic, and make bylaws so stringent, that under them no meeting, however unobjectionable, could take place; while another ranger and Home Secretary might so legislate as to leave matters precisely as they are. Parliament ought not to give powers so vague and general as not to know the effect of what it is enacting. It ought not rashly and recklessly to pass an Act which may either have a very violent effect or no effect at all. Many of the persons best qualified to advise Parliament on such a subject are now absent. It is said that this Bill ought to be passed as a proof that the House is determined to maintain its own honour and dignity; and that we are bound to support the Government on this occasion because, forsooth, certain persons out-of-doors wish us to reject it, and talk of holding certain meetings and making violent speeches against it. This I understand to be the argument of the noble Lord the Member for Haddingtonshire; but such an argument appears to me to be simply babyish. Are we hastily to legislate in a rash and reckless way on a matter of great difficulty, merely because some persons out-of-doors wish us to do something different? I cannot understand arguments such as these, which, so far from maintaining, seem to me to be playing and paltering with the honour and dignity of this House. Not that we are, any of us, insensible to an individual feeling of indignation, when persons out of the House take upon themselves to attempt to exert a personal pressure upon Members in regard to any measure. Only yesterday, when a gentleman connected with the Reform League met me in the Lobby, and began to talk about this Bill, and the duty of Liberal Members to oppose it, I said to him, "Sir, if you want me

  1577
  to hold my tongue from speaking against this Bill, you can't do better than by canvassing me in the Lobby." But though this is a natural feeling, I hold it to be merely childish by way of an argument to tell hon. Members that they can maintain the honour and dignity of the House by voting on any such principle, however natural the feeling may be, for no feeling of the kind can absolve us from our solemn duty to judge of all matters before us, according to their merits. Another argument used in support of the Bill is that in other Parks, at Liverpool, Derby, and elsewhere, rules have been made entirely preventing public meetings; but in those places there is no difficulty in finding open spaces in or near the town in which public meetings can be held, so that the main question does not arise. Lastly, we have been told that we ought to support the Government in their determination to pass this Bill, because the subject with which it deals is a damnosa hœreditas left to them by their predecessors. Sir, I did not altogether approve of the mode in which the late Government dealt with this question of the Parks, and I admit that it has increased the difficulties of the question; but surely that can be no reason for assisting the present Government to hurry on a crude and imperfect measure in a comparatively empty House. For these and other reasons, having a very strong conviction that it is inexpedient now to proceed with this measure, and having no other mode of expressing that conviction, I move, Mr. Dodson, that you do now leave the Chair.
  Question proposed, "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair."—(Mr. Denman.)
  MR. GILPINsaid, he did not take any part in the discussion upon the Bill the other day, as he disapproved of the tactics of Friends near him in attempting to "talk out" the question — although he felt as strongly as any of them that it was undesirable to press the Bill at so late a period of the Session. He now earnestly appealed to the Government to postpone the Bill until another Session, by which time it would have been fully considered by their Legal Advisers, and be adopted probably by a large majority of the entire House. If a division took place now, the Government would doubtless have a majority, but it would be no test of the opinion of the British House of Commons.
  1578
  Such would not be the light in which the people out of doors would view the decision. If the Bill were carried in its present shape this Session, there could be little doubt that next Session, or the first new Parliament, would be called upon to alter or repeal it. If the Government liked, let them take a division, and doubtless they had a majority at their back. But when they had taken their division, he appealed to them not to proceed further with the Bill. Let them act graciously and withdraw it. If passed it would have the appearance of being a censure upon the important subject which had called the great masses of the people together in Hyde Park — namely, Parliamentary Reform. Admitting that it was absolutely necessary to meet within doors for the purposes of discussion, large out-door meetings had their uses. In his opinion, hon. Gentlemen opposite were greatly assisted by the meetings which were held in Hyde Park—and it would be ingratitude on their part to attempt to put them down. He had heard of "operative Conservatives"—from whom the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer had received deputations — though he scarcely knew to what class of animals they belonged. It was said that the people were not anxious for Reform, and that they did not care about it. The answer to that allegation came trumpet-tongued from Hyde Park, and then hon. Gentlemen opposite were converted, but not before. They were asked to legislate in a hasty manner. When hon. Members were nearly worn out by the fatigues of the Session, sitting morning and evening, a Bill involving a great constitutional principle was pressed upon them. Out of doors the people regarded this question as one affecting the Constitution, and it ought not to be forced on at this late period of the Session. If the Government would listen to his appeal, and postpone the Bill, they would probably come to the conclusion next Session that the best thing to do would be to set apart several acres in Hyde Park for the purposes of public meeting, so as not to interfere with the other portions of the Park. Then they might make such gatherings in all other portions of the Park as illegal as they pleased, with the certainty of carrying their Bill with the hearty consent of both sides of the House; and that Bench (the front Opposition Bench) would then be represented as well as the Treasury Bench.

  1579
  Their Bill would then be carried with the approbation of the country; and the people, recognizing the justice of their intentions, would yield willing obedience.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, he agreed with the hon. Gentleman who had just addressed the House, that that was a constitutional question. For that reason, he was anxious that the House should, for the purpose of assuring the freedom of the deliberations of Parliament, take the same security which the Congress of the United States had long since taken for insuring the independence of its Capitol. It was unbecoming in a Member of that House to boast that the House, in dealing with a great constitutional question, had acted under the influence of intimidation from without. [Mr. GILPIN said he had not used any such language.] He was glad to find the hon. Gentleman disclaimed the intentional employment of such language. He had certainly heard more than once statements made in the House, which seemed to him fairly to bear that interpretation. He earnestly desired to save Parliament from the indignity of even appearing to be dictated to by local mobs. As the representative of a Midland constituency, and in their name, he respectfully stated that the House ought to guard their deliberations from all chance or apprehension of violent external interruption. The House of Commons ought to guard itself against the imputation of being intimidated by local mobs, by extending the limit of one mile from the Houses of Parliament and the present Courts of Law, within which, by the existing Act of Parliament, it was illegal to hold any public meeting during the Session. They had secured to the people of this country a full representation in that House, and they were bound to provide for the perfect exercise of the new system they had established by not allowing themselves to be subjected even to the imputation of acting under local dictatation. He understood it was the intention of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department so to limit the operation of the Bill that it would merely provide for the Royal Parks the same power of regulation which existed in the case of every other park. He considered this only an instalment of that which the occasion required. It would certainly be unreasonable to refuse to the Crown the same rights which were
  1580
  granted to the holders of every other property of the same description.
  MR. THOMSON HANKEYsaid, he should vote against the Motion that the Chairman leave the Chair if it was pressed, because he believed that such a Motion was a most improper mode of dealing with a question which should be disposed of by the Aye or No of the House. He did not approve the Bill, however. He desired to see a measure passed for regulating the Parks, but did not think this fitted for the purpose. A late Home Secretary had declared it to be indispensable before a capital sentence was carried into effect, not only for the law to have been strictly carried out, but that the public should believe that such was the case. He felt that some regulations ought to be adopted with regard to the Parks, and he had come up from the country that morning for the purpose of supporting the Government. But it appeared that the regulations proposed were not considered satisfactory, and the question was one that ought not to be dealt with in a thin and one-sided Parliament. He admitted that the right to use the Parks did not give a right to abuse the Parks, and public meetings ought not to take place in them to the injury and annoyance of the rest of London. Nevertheless, the right of public meeting, which was believed to be bound up in this question, ought to be preserved. The Government had acted conscientiously. They had modified the Bill with a view of rendering it acceptable to the House, but, as it was not satisfactory, they would act wisely in carrying the measure no further this Session. If it were then carried it would be carried by a majority consisting almost exclusively of Members sitting upon one side of the House; and such a decision would not meet with the respect and approval of the country.
  MR. LIDDELLsaid, he should take the rather unusual course of abstaining from voting upon the Bill. He regretted that the regular and constitutional course was not adopted of moving the Previous Question, thus declaring that the time of bringing forward the question was inopportune, but it was now too late so to dispose of the Bill. He would act in the way he had mentioned from no fear of exciting agitation out of doors, but because he thought it would be wiser and more politic to allow the question to rest for another Session. He had differed from the Government in their policy on the Parks,

  1581
  thinking that it was at one time pusillanimous, and at another ill-considered. The whole question was so intricate that the precise legal position of it was ill-understood by those who ought to understand it well. That fact alone was enough to settle the Bill. Some regulation for the Parks was absolutely required, but it would be wiser to put off any measure on the subject until agitation out of doors had calmed down, and until the whole question had been inquired into by a Select Committee.
  SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLENsaid, that believing some legislation was necessary, he had heretofore taken no port in the discussions. But believing also the present time inopportune, he should now support the Amendment. As regarded the complaints made that hon. Members on the Liberal side had prolonged the discussions, though on ordinary occasions such a course should not be pursued, the conduct of the Government on the present occasion had afforded a justification of the course of the Liberal party. The Home Secretary had announced that he was prepared to make in Committee a serious alteration in the Bill. But even in its modified form it was most objectionable to press it forward, and it was much to be regretted that the result of the deliberations of the Cabinet had not been to withdraw the Bill for the present Session. A Bill might be a good Bill, and yet be brought forward at a most inopportune time, as was seen in the case of the Conspiracy Bill, which caused the overthrow of Lord Palmerston's Government, and yet two years afterwards was passed unanimously. The present moment was inopportune for bringing forward the Parks Regulation Bill. Out of doors it was considered that the Bill was an interference with the right of public meeting, no matter what the Government in this House might say to the contrary. Demonstrations were necessary to indicate what was the popular opinion on any subject affecting the interests of the people, and if these were to be prohibited in Hyde Park, there was no other place in the Metropolis where such out-door gatherings could take place. Pressing forward this Bill at so late a period of the Session was regarded by many as an act of vengeance on the part of the Government, who were seeking to recover the honour which they had lost in connection with the Hyde Park meetings. It was said that the Reform Bill was brought forward for the purpose
  1582
  of "dishing" the Whigs, and in like manner it was affirmed by not a few that this Bill had been introduced for the purpose of "dishing" Beales. He would support the Motion of the hon. and learned Member for Tiverton.
  MR. GATHORNE HARDYsaid, that the speeches which had been made that day were made in a different tone and, apparently, with a different object from those delivered on. Tuesday, and he trusted he should treat them with all due respect; but he could not help saying that the Bill had not received the treatment to which it was entitled. He was told that this was a totally different measure from the Parks Regulation Bill originally introduced by the Government. In the first part it was different, but in the other parts it was the same. The new portion was the part relating to misdemeanour. But the regulations part was the same as that in the Bill introduced by his right hon. Friend. The Bill now under discussion was read a second time when the House was comparatively full, and when the Leader of the Opposition was present. Subsequently when his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Southwark (Mr. Locke) moved that it was inexpedient to proceed with the Bill, that Motion was rejected by a large majority. The House had decided, therefore, first, that the Bill was a desirable one; and, secondly, that the present was an expedient time for going on with it. In Committee a Motion was made that Mr. Dodson leave the Chair. That was withdrawn on the first occasion. Afterwards when the Bill was in progress, the Motion for reporting Progress was renewed, and the Bill was opposed, without any of its opponents saying what he would suggest. From the beginning of the discussion he had not heard any Member who opposed the Bill say what he would agree to. Not a single hint was thrown out by any speaker as to what kind of regulations he would agree to have incorporated in the Bill. They merely said that they objected to what was in the measure; but no one condescended to specify what portions of the regulations he would agree to. The only Amendment placed on the Paper was one to prevent Her Majesty from exercising her Prerogative of having her soldiers reviewed in one of the Royal demesnes. The Law Officers were of opinion that undoubtedly that was a Prerogative of the Crown. With respect to the observa-

  1583
  tion of his hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Denman) and other hon. Gentlemen, that Primrose Hill was in just the same category with Hyde Park, this was a mistake. Primrose Hill had been purchased with the public money, on the proposal of Mr. Joseph Hume.
  MR. DENMANsaid, that he had not stated what the right hon. Gentleman supposed. He had said that the Crown, or some other authority, must have an equal right to exclude the public in respect of Primrose Hill, to the right claimed for the Crown in respect of Hyde Park.
  MR. GATHORNE HARDYsaid, he had been most anxious to conciliate hon. Gentlemen opposite, and get rid of what to some persons might appear to be a ground of objection to the Bill. His hon. and learned Friend said this was a Bill to give to the ranger the power to make by-laws. He (Mr. G. Hardy) entirely repudiated such a construction being placed upon the measure. The ranger already had power to make such laws, but he had not the power of enforcing them by penalties. What the Bill proposed was to give the ranger power to enforce the regulations in the same way as was done in connection with the metropolitan parks. It had been contended that in bringing forward this measure the Government were seeking to enforce exceptional legislation. This was not the case. The town of Liver pool possessed three parks, and another was in course of construction. The corporation of that town had unanimously resolved that no preaching or lecturing should be permitted within them, or that any political or religious demonstrations should be allowed within the inclosure. He could not, therefore, see what was exceptional in the present Bill. If hon. Members determined to defeat the measure by delay and talking it out, he could not conceal from himself that at this late period of the Session they had the power of doing so. But he called upon the House to tell him what mode of procedure they intend to adopt in resisting the Bill before he would state how he would proceed with it. He trusted that the Committee would reject the Amendment of the hon. and learned Gentleman.
  MR. DARBY GRIFFITHsaid, he wished to call the attention of the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Whalley) to the fact that on the 22nd of July, when the House divided on the second reading, there were 181 for and 64 against the Bill.
  1584
  The right hon. Baronet the Member for Morpeth (Sir George Grey) voted in the majority, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Lancashire (Mr. Gladstone) declined to vote. The moral effect of that division was overpowering.
  MR. CRAWFORDsaid, he intended to vote for the Motion of the hon. and learned Member for Tiverton because he entirely objected to the principle of the Bill. He did not believe that it was the duty of those who were averse, as he was, to the principle of the measure, to propose any Amendments. It was for the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department to state the modifications he was prepared to propose.
  MR. BAILLIE COCHRANEsaid, he should be glad to know if hon. Members opposite intended to try and talk this Bill out, a mode of dealing with it which might be easy enough at this period of the Session. If that were so, it was not a fair, straightforward, or proper way of dealing with a measure like the present.
  Mr. DENMAN and Lord ELCHO explained.
  MR. WHALLEYsaid, that so far as he, personally, was concerned he should, whilst his strength lasted, do all he could to talk out the Bill, relieved occasionally by others, so as to obtain time for the renewal of his strength. If the Bill, as modified, were accepted, the odium of excluding the people from the Park would not be thrown upon the House of Commons or the Government, but upon Her Majesty, or her nominee the ranger. He contended that the Bill now before the House never practically passed the second reading.
  MR. WATKINsaid, he should vote against the Motion of the hon. and learned Member for Tiverton (Mr. Denman), but he still hoped that among moderate men some compromise might be arrived at on the question. The Government in their first Bill said that no meeting of a political character should be held in the Parks without the consent of Her Majesty. That Bill was read a second time, and it recognized the principle of public meeting in the Parks by leave of Her Majesty. The metropolitan Members, no doubt, were under some pressure as regarded this Bill, but he and others who were not under any pressure of that kind, did not want the Parks to be turned into great meeting places. They were especially desirous that no meetings whatever should take place there on Sundays. But inasmuch as

  1585
  the Parks were the only places in which great open-air gatherings on important subjects could be held, they thought that some portion of Hyde Park should be set aside for that purpose. To prevent this privilege being abused they were willing that the Home Secretary should have power to prohibit such gatherings as were likely to disturb public order. The question was, whether the Government, after having consented to leave out the first clause, and to give to the Home Secretary, instead of to the ranger, the power of preparing and carrying out the necessary regulation, would agree to the further concession that some portion of Hyde Park should be set aside for public meetings. He did not think the course taken by the hon. and learned Member for Tiverton was a fair way of dealing with the question; but any measure which they might pass upon this subject should be of such a character as to meet the views of Members of moderate opinions on both sides of the House, and to provoke no hostility out of doors.
  MR. O'BEIRNEsaid, he had no desire to see the peace of the West End of London interfered with in any way. He should, however, vote with the hon. and learned Member for Tiverton if he went to a division, because he felt that it was very inconvenient, and he might say dangerous, to attempt to legislate upon a question which in any way interfered with the rights of any class at this period. It was highly inexpedient to interfere with or touch those rights within four or five days of the end of the Session. He had heard with great disappointment the observations of the Home Secretary in reply to the remarks of the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Whalley) and the hon. Member for Northumberland (Mr. Liddell). He did hope that the remarks of those hon. Gentlemen, couched as they were in such moderate and earnest terms, would have met with a much better reception at the hands of the right hon. Gentleman, and that he would have yielded to the views so strongly impressed upon him by both sides of the House. If Her Majesty's Government would bring this matter forward next Session, they would find a ready desire to support any measure for the preservation of public order, without interfering with the rights of the labouring classes of the metropolis. There was no analogy whatever between Hyde
  1586
  Park and the Liverpool Park. The right of meeting in Hyde Park for social and political purposes had existed for 300 years with modifications. Even races had taken place there. The origin of this Bill, was that at the end of last Session a disorderly meeting was held in the Park. He believed that the meetings which were held during the present Session would not have induced the Government to propose any such measure. Any meetings which took place within the boundaries of London was certain to be followed by a large Bohemian class, such as was not to be found in any other city. It was the duty of the authorities to take earnest and determined means to preserve the peace; but legislation of this kind was not the proper course. There was no attempt to interfere with the people, and in consequence no breach of the peace occurred, as the people themselves were determined to resist the Bohemian class—the "roughs." He had heard of no inconvenience arising from those meetings, nor did he see any complaints in the press as to the consequences of them. He was not aware that a single Petition from the West End of London in favour of this Bill had been laid on the table. [Mr. GATHORNE HARDY: I presented two very numerously signed myself.] Two Petitions from London scarcely offered very strong evidence in favour of the Bill. If the question were postponed it would obtain a fuller and more satisfactory solution. Endowed parks were subject to such rules as the donors desired to fix; but in the case of Hyde Park, time and usage had conferred rights which this Bill sought to take away. He would earnestly ask the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department to re-consider this question, and at the end of the Session not to persist with a measure which would produce a feeling out of doors which he was satisfied would be a matter of deep regret here-after.
  MR. ALDERMAN LUSKsaid, he gave the Government credit for the best motives in pressing the Bill forward; but one party must give way, and it would be more dignified for the majority to yield.
  MR. P. A. TAYLORsaid, he had no intention to delay the House with any lengthened observations; but he wished to say a word with respect to a letter, signed "A Man in the Streets," which the noble Lord the Member for Haddington (Lord Elcho) had read in the Morning

  1587
  Star. It would appear from the observations of the noble Lord that he supposed he (Mr. Taylor) was the author of that letter, but he begged to assure him that he had not written, nor had he even read, the letter. There was another matter with respect to the noble Lord which he wished to allude to. He had said, merely on the strength of a rumour, that the noble Lord wished for, or spoke of, the employment of the Volunteers to keep the people out of Hyde Park. To that statement the noble Lord gave a very emphatic denial, stating that his opinions were quite the reverse of what they had been represented to be. For the statement he had made, therefore, he (Mr. Taylor) begged to apologize to the noble Lord. He could not exactly regret that he did mention the matter because, being an earnest friend of the Volunteer corps, he was glad, for the sake of the corps, with which the noble Lord was so honourably associated, that the public denial had been given. He had endeavoured to maintain the argument that there was an ancient, constitutional, and century-hallowed principle of the right of the people to meet. To that the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary said that it was perfectly impossible to prove that there was any such right of the public to meet in Hyde Park, and he defied him (Mr. Taylor) to show that up to fifteen years ago there had been any attempt at all to meet in the Park. That was no answer to his argument. What he said was, that there existed a constitutional right of the people to meet in any convenient and public place. He did not say there was any particular right to meet in Hyde Park or any other place. Sixty years ago Hyde Park was outside London, and as much out of place as Battersea Park now was. The hon. Member for Honiton (Mr. Baillie Cochrane) had said that the course taken in opposition to the Bill was unjustifiable. He took issue with the hon. Member on that. The course taken was not unjustifiable. If the Government brought the Bill through the House they would do it by the most unfair coercion to that side of the House on which he sat. If the Government had a majority on the Bill it would be a majority of mere officials. Is was a justification for using all the forms of the House to defeat the measure, that although he and his friends were a minority in the House, they really represented the great community out of doors. He had had the curiosity to
  1588
  take the fourteen Members who spoke against the Bill on Tuesday, and he placed opposite their names the population in 1861 of the places they represented. [Laughter.] He was quite aware that hon. Gentlemen opposite paid no attention to large constituencies. The fourteen Members represented a total population of about 2,000,000, of which the registered electors were 130,000. That was to say, they each represented an average population of 153,000, and an average of electors of between 9,000 and 10,000. [Major ANSON: But have the minorities been deducted from those numbers?] They have not. On the ground that they stood there supported by a large mass of public opinion, he renewed his appeal to the Government. To strengthen it he would say that there was really no practical necessity to pass this measure, that it was likely to produce bad blood in the country, and that there was no practical difficulty in coming to a satisfactory arrangement at a future time. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and all the more moderate men who sat opposite had acknowledged that the people had a constitutional right to hold meetings, and many of them admitted that as a safety valve that right was necessary. No man among his friends on that (the Opposition) side of the House, and no member of the Reform League, ever denied that regulations were essential, not only for the interests of the people, but for those of the Government. They always deprecated the idea of public meetings degenerating into tumultuous assemblies. Nothing but a firmness, which he did not hesitate to call obstinacy, could make the Government persevere with this measure.
  MR. DENMANsaid, the suggestion of the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Watkin) was well worthy the attention of a Select Committee, but not one for settlement across the table. Besides, the Government had not given any intimation that they would accede to the proposal to set apart a portion of the Park for public meetings. He must, therefore, press his Motion to a division.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided: — Ayes 31; Noes 86; Majority 55.
  MR. BAILLIE COCHRANEsaid, that after the satisfactory decision which had just taken place, and considering the speeches which had been delivered by the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr.

  1589
  Whalley) and another hon. Member (Mr. Taylor), who stated that they intended to oppose every possible obstacle to the further progress of the measure, considering also the advanced period of the Session and the impossibility of carrying any such measure this year, it would, in his opinion, be wise for the Government to withdraw the bill. The principle of the Bill had been already accepted. That fact would, he hoped, influence those who might otherwise have attempted to promote any demonstration. Knowing the firmness of the hon. Member for Peterborough, he ventured most humbly to suggest to Her Majesty's Government that they would consult the best interests of this question by dropping the measure until next Session.
  MR. H. B. SHERIDANsaid, he was not in favour of great meetings being held in the Royal Parks. Indeed, he looked with disfavour on any street demonstrations at all, as having a character of intimidation and menace rather than as being fit occasions for discussion and comment. At a former discussion on this Bill, it was suggested that if you excluded the public from those parks you virtually took away from them the constitutional privileges they enjoyed, because it would not be convenient to the great middle classes of this city to bold a large public meeting in any other place than Hyde Park. They knew, from the accounts in the newspapers, that the numbers attending the meetings in the Park were absolutely insignificant in comparison with its extent, and interfered hardly at all with the comfort or enjoyment of visitors. Government had done so much to satisfy the political requirements and wishes of the people that it was to be regretted they should new insist upon proceeding with a Bill that was directly aimed at the liberties of the people. It would be a far wiser course now to withdraw it, and to bring it forward next Session, when they could calmly consider what were the questions involved. It seemed like a note of defiance, sounded at a time when all was calm, tranquil, and contented out of doors, and when they had done much to satisfy the people. The public believed, rightly or wrongly, that they were lessees of the Parks, and that they had a right to the Parks. They paid a large annual revenue for the use of them. No one could dispute the right to re-consider the privileges and powers of the Crown in reference
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  to the parks. Had those powers been clearly stated there would have been no occasion for legislation; but, as they were doubted, it was not in accordance with the spirit which ought to guide Englishmen in their deliberations to shut out discussion. It must be recollected that these Parks were swamps when the contracts subsisting were made in regard to them. They were reclaimed at the public cost, and £25,000 a year of the public money had been subsequently spent in adorning them. The reviews of the Household troops which occasionally took place in them were far more injurious than any public meetings. He recollected reading in a novel of Mrs. Gore how lamentable it was to see the Park turned into a scorched and blasted heath from being trampled down by the feet of the soldiery. He had reason to believe that the Government and the police were really favourable to street demonstrations, for on the 9th November last he had been requested to get out of his carriage at the end of the Strand on an occasion of the Lord Mayor's show. He could not help thinking that a meeting on a subject of Imperial interest was of greater importance than a street procession occasioned by the fact of the magistrates of the City having chosen their Chairman, and going to Westminster to get him approved by the Judges. The object they were now contending for was to have this important question considered calmly and in a manner accordant with the interests of the whole community. He begged to move that the Chairman report Progress.
  MR. GATHORNE HARDY: The course taken by the hon. Member for Dudley places me in a position of difficulty. If I continue to withstand the opposition to the Bill, I shall be dealing with extreme harshness by my Friends who have supported it hitherto, and it will become practically impossible for the House of Lords to pass the Bill without adopting an unusual course consequent on the delay caused by hon. Members opposite. I wish to stand clear in this matter. I have been perfectly earnest in my intention to pass the Bill. I do not yield to threats, whether uttered out of doors or expressed in letters written to myself. I am prepared to justify the course I have taken in respect to the Bill, in which course I was backed by the House on the second reading. I have been supported by the House in reference to the provi-

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  sions in this Bill, and not merely as has been said in reference to provisions contained in a former Bill. I have looked back to the former Bill, and I find in it the provisions with respect to unlawful assemblies which now appear on the face of this Bill. I find also that the regulations contained in it, though varied in form, are proposed for adoption by the present Bill. Again, the way in which I proposed to proceed with the Bill has been sanctioned by the House. To-day, in a division, carried, not by official Members, but by a considerable majority exclusive of official Members, the Bill has been again supported, and the feeling of the House again shown in its favour. At the same time, from the language of the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Sheridan) and the hon. Member for Leicester (Mr. Taylor), it is quite plain that they will pursue their opposition to the Bill. The hon. Member for Dudley also—and let me say it with great respect, he can speak very much better when the object which he has in view is different—by his frequent glances at the clock, enabled me to judge what was passing in his mind. I know, therefore, that I cannot get the Bill through Committee under the circumstances. Accordingly, yielding—must I say—to the obstinate minority who will not allow me to go on in the ordinary course, I must beg to move, Mr. Dodson, that you do leave the Chair.
  MR. DENMANsaid, he must disclaim the supposition of having been actuated by any factious motives.
  MR. H. B. SHERIDANsaid, that the handsome manner in which the right hon. Gentleman had given up the Bill would be appreciated by the House and the country.
  Motion negatived.
  House resumed.
  [No Report.]

THE ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIONERS AND ST. EDMUND'S DUDLEY.

  QUESTION.
  MR. H. B. SHERIDANasked the Judge Advocate, If it is true that the Rev. John Davies, incumbent of St. Edmund's, Dudley, is in the receipt of £26 per annum only from the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, when all other district clergy had their incomes made up to £300 a year, he having a population exceeding
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  5,000 souls; and, if so, on what grounds the customary emoluments are denied to him which are given under like circumstances to all others of the district clergy?
  MR. MOWBRAY: In 1864 the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, in their Report presented to Parliament, said they trusted that within a period of five years they would be able to raise to £300 a year the income of every benefice in public patronage which then existed, and had, according to the Census of 1861, a population of 4,000 persons. In 1861 the population of the district of St. Edmund's was 3,213. It is true that an addition has since been made to the district of St. Edmund's, and the population of that district, with the addition, now exceeds 5,000; but that addition was not made until February, 1866; consequently, by the existing regulations, the incumbent of St. Edmund's is not entitled to an augmentation of income. All the financial calculations of the Commissioners have been based upon the observance of these regulations for the five years. These five years will expire in 1869, and it will then be open to the Commissioners, if their funds admit of it, to re-consider the case of St. Edmund's district with reference to its population.

CONSECRATION OF CHURCHES AND CHURCHYARDS BILL—(Lords.)

  [BILL. 276.] CONSIDERATION.
  Bill, as amended, considered.
  MR. GILPINmoved the insertion of the following new clause:—
  "When any land is added to an existing Churchyard, a portion of such land shall be allotted for burials otherwise than in accordance with the rites of the Church of England, and the amount and situation of such unconsecrated portion shall be determined by the vestry of the parish, subject to the approval of one of Her Majesty's principal Secretaries of State."
  He claimed for Dissenters, living or dying, the rights of parishioners as much as if they were members of the Church of England. Up to the year 1852 Dissenters were absolutely ignored in the arrangements made for public burial places; but in that year the Burial Acts were passed, and since that time the Legislature had shown the utmost desire to legislate fairly and equally for all classes of Her Majesty's subjects in this matter. He knew some hon. Gentlemen would think he was claiming something unfair in asking that on any gift of land added to a churchyard certain rules should be imposed which

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  might not be in accordance with the views of the giver; but he did not seek to interfere with free gifts at all unless the parties came to Parliament to obtain Parliamentary sanction for what they did, and in that case he thought it was only right that the provision embodied in his clause should apply. If a Dissenter presented ground to enlarge a churchyard, he would ask hon. Members if they would agree to the giver providing that no part of that ground should be consecrated. The cases were similar, and he desired to put an end to those occurrences which he thought were on the increase in the country, where a clergyman of the Church of England should feel it his duty to refuse what he believed to be Christian burial to any one who had died unbaptized. In Scotland there were something like a thousand churches with graveyards attached, which graveyards were unconsecrated. He did not make this appeal on behalf of the members of the society to which he belonged, for they had graveyards of their own, and they did not believe in consecration, considering that no consecration could make the ground holier than it was originally created by the Almighty. He asked, in the words of William Howitt—
  "Does the honest quaker sleep less sound, or will he wake less joyful at the judgment day, because he sleeps in ground over which there have been no prelatical performances, and for which neither Priest nor Prelate has portrates á dcoit?"
  Believing, then, that consecration was unnecessary, and that every parishioner had a right to Christian burial in the churchyard of his parish, whether he was a Dissenter or a Churchman, he begged to move the insertion of this clause.
  Clause brought up, and read the first time.
  MR. GATHORNE HARDYregretted that he could not accede to the clause. He had no wish, however, to treat with disrespect the feelings of those who differed from the Church. There was no doubt that the doctrine of the Church of England forbade clergymen to give Christian burial according to the usage of the Church of England to the bodies of unbaptized persons. But he did not think that a person who gave a piece of land to enlarge a churchyard should be compelled to give another piece for a purpose he did not contemplate; that was unreasonable, and could not be maintained in argument. It seemed to him that pro-
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  vision was made in every way for the burial of Dissenters. There were few parts of England in which there were not graveyards where Dissenters had their own burial ground. The present Bill was to lower the fees received by the Bishop or his officers for the consecration of churchyards, and to give a short form of conveyance of title. He regretted that he could not accede to the hon. Gentleman's Motion.
  MR. NEATEsupported the clause.
  MR. CANDLISHalso spoke in favour of the clause, and expressed his regret that it was opposed by the Government.
  Motion made, and Question put, "That the clause be read a second time."
  The House divided:—Ayes 14; Noes 33: Majority 19.
  Bill read the third time, and passed with Amendments, and an amended Title.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Two o'clock.