Commons Sitting of 16 February 1865

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBER SWORN—For Sal-ford, John Cheetham, esquire.
PUBLIC BILLS—Ordered—Court of Chancery (Ireland) (No. 2); British Kaffraria; Juries in Criminal Cases.*
First Reading- Court of Chancery (Ireland) (No. 2) [25]; Juries in Criminal Cases [26];* British Kaffraria [27].
Second Reading—Courts of Justice Building [5].

PRIVATE BILLS—PRINTING OF PETITIONS.—RESOLUTIONS.
MR. TORRENS, in moving a Resolution that the Petitions on every Private Bill shall be printed and copies thereof, and of the Bill itself, delivered to the Members of the Committee, said, that great inconvenience arose from the fact that Committees were furnished with only one copy of a petition, and that written on a large unwieldly piece of parchment, in a text which rendered it very difficult to read it. He need hardly remind the House that, under the present system, a Member of a Private Bill Committee had no opportunity of seeing the Bill he had to consider until going into the Committee-room, when the business is immediately commenced; and it surely will be admitted, that it will be a beneficial change to afford an opportunity, however short, to Members to read the Bill to be considered, and petitions which relate to it, before the actual hearing of parties is begun. When he brought the subject forward a few evenings

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ago he stated that he had ascertained, in answer to inquiries which he had made of various printing firms of great respectability, that fifty copies of a petition, consisting of four foolscap printed pages of matter, the paper being of the same size as that which was used for the Votes of the House, might be obtained for a sum considerably less than 28 s.—a sum sufficiently moderate, he thought, to satisfy the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade. He found, on further inquiry, the correctness of that information completely confirmed. In the Court of Chancery briefs and affidavits were now printed, to the great convenience of the public, and he believed that in another place Lord Redesdale was about that very evening to move that the petitions be printed for the more convenient reference of Members of Committees on Private Bills. The right hon. and gallant General the Member for Huntingdon (General Peel), seemed to consider it a hardship that petitioners should be put to the expense of printing the petitions which they were obliged to submit to Parliament in consequence of the action of the promoters of Bills; but, in the case of the promoters, the expense would fall more heavily on a single party than if divided among a number of petitioners. Besides, in the event of his (Mr. Torrens) proposing to throw all the expense on promoters, he greatly feared the opposition to his Motion would be so great that the contemplated improvement in the manner of conducting Private Bill business would not be concurred in by the House, and what he now proposed might be lost altogether. Moreover, the hon. Member for Haverfordwest was about to introduce a measure on the subject of costs in such Bills; and, if passed, as he hoped it would be, a remedy would be found for any hardship inflicted by promoters vexatiously dragging parties before Private Bill Committees. He hoped that the House would, for the reasons which he had given, assent to his Motion.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That on every Private Bill to be considered by a Committee of this House, all Petitions which shall stand referred to such Committee, if not previously withdrawn, be printed at the expense of the Petitioners, and Copies of such Petitions, together with a Copy of the Bill to be considered, be delivered to each Member of the Committee on the morning of its first sitting."(Mr. Torrens.)
GENERAL PEELsaid, he would take it for granted that the object which the hon.
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Gentleman had in view was to promote the convenience of Committees by shortening their labour; but he very much doubted whether his Resolution was calculated to have that effect. If petitions were printed and placed in the hands of the Members of a Committee a few days before they assembled, he was afraid none but the youngest Members would take the trouble of reading them; for it would be found that when the Committee met the greater portion of the petitions would be abandoned altogether, and that the substance of those not withdrawn would be repeated over and over again ad nauseam by the counsel engaged in the case. The effect of the Resolution, too, he thought, would be to increase the number of petitions with which there was no intention to proceed. The object of these petitions would be to influence the minds of the Committee by statements not afterwards proved by evidence; and it would become the duty of the Chairman, at the commencement of the investigation, to tell the Committee to dismiss from their minds everything they might have heard or read and to confine themselves to the evidence. The House, in his opinion, was hardly strict enough in dealing with Motions submitting new Standing Orders for its acceptance. It would be well that proposals of that kind should in the first instance be laid before the Standing Orders Committee, who would report to the House as to the expediency of adopting them. How did matters stand at present in such instances as that to which the Resolution under discussion related? A great company desired to take the property of a private individual, and in order to carry out that object they came to Parliament; and a Committee was appointed, which the petitioners against the measure did not at all want. If, therefore, the House was of opinion that petitions should be printed for the convenience of such Committees, the expense ought, he thought, to be borne by the promoters of Bills. In railway legislation Parliament had gone from one extreme to the other. When railroads were first introduced the rights of the owners of property were much more considered than seemed to be the case at the present day. He was old enough to recollect when, at the outset, a Bill was almost certain to be lost unless the promoters had obtained the sanction of the landed proprietors. He recollected that the London and Birmingham Railway Bill was thrown out

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in consequence of the opposition of the proprietors of the land. Now, however, a race of speculators had arisen who were called "promoters" of schemes, who exercised their ingenuity in devising the wildest and most unnecessary undertakings, and who took little or no account of the rights of individuals, content with receiving from the shareholders a gratuity of £3,000 or £4,000, as it might be, for their exertions. He therefore proposed, in line three, to strike out the word "Petitioners," and to substitute the words, "Promoters of the Bill."
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "Petitioners," in order to insert the words "Promoters of the Bill," instead thereof.—(General Peel.)
Question proposed, "That the word 'Petitioners' stand part of the Question."
MR. TORRENSsaid, he had not the least objection to accept the Amendment, and would have proposed it himself, had he the same weight in the House as the hon. and gallant Officer.
MR. MILNER GIBSONsaid, he entertained no great objection to the proposal in its original shape, but felt indisposed to support the Amendment. It was true that the promoters of a Bill in one sense always entailed expense on those who had to petition against it; but there was such a tiling as vexatious opposition, and in those cases it would be highly unfair to throw on the promoters the costs of both sides. He therefore thought that if the petitions were referred to a Committee the expense should be borne by the respective petitioners. It would be also inexpedient to compel parties to print and deliver petitions two days prior to the meeting of the Committee; because it often happened that within that interval intended oppositions were compromised or withdrawn, and it became necessary to print the petitions.
MR. TORRENSsaid, that he had already altered the wording of the Resolution from "two days previously" to the "morning of the day" on which the Committee sat.
MR. MILNER GIBSONsaid, he had no objection to the proposal in that shape.
MR. CRAUFURDthought a Motion for altering the Standing Orders ought not to be dealt with by the House till it had been referred to the Standing Orders Committee, and those hon. Members who had charge of the Private business
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of the House. He had heard nothing to satisfy him that the proposed change would be attended with benefit; it would, in fact, tend to increase expense by adding the cost of printing to that of engrossing the petitions. The best way would be to allow these to be presented in type. He should like to hear the opinion of the Chairman of the Standing Orders Committee.
COLONEL WILSON PATTENsaid, the Standing Orders Committee had not been consulted on the matter, but he thought the proposal not an unreasonable one, although in practice the cases were generally so well stated to the Committees by counsel that there was rarely any need to refer to the petitions themselves. The suggestion which had just been made, that petitions in the first instance, instead of being engrossed should be printed, was a very good one, and might hereafter be acted upon, though the point, he admitted, had never struck him before. He saw no reason why the petitions should not be printed and lodged in the Private Bills Office in the same way as the Bills were.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Main Question put, and agreed to.

THE LATE MR. GREGSON.
First Report of Public Petition Committee brought up and read.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Sir, I am sure I am the faithful organ of the feeling of the Members of this House when I take this opportunity of expressing, as I think I may venture to do on their behalf, the deep regret which we all feel for the loss the House, has sustained in the death of Mr. Gregson, the late Member for Lancaster. In his capacity of Member of this House, he performed great services to the public; and he was Chairman, I think for seven years, of that Committee of which the Report has just been brought up and moved to be laid upon the table. His attention to his duties was most unwearying, and those who had occasion to come in contact with him, either personally or by virtue of the duties which he performed, will bear witness to his indefatigable industry, to the firmness and soundness of his judgment, to the conciliatory character of his temper, and to the combination in his person of all those qualities which rendered him a valuable and estimable Member of this House. Sir, I may add that I think the public in general are

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hardly aware how much the public interest is indebted to the voluntary and unpretending, almost unknown, exertions of Members of this House with regard to the Private business, and with regard also to the Public business of this House. The time and patient attention which are given gratuitously by Members acting upon the Committees of this House reflect the greatest credit on their public spirit—the more so because those exertions and those labours, however arduous they may be, and however much, in many cases, they may press on the health of those who perform them, are, from their very nature, not labours attracting public attention, or giving to those who perform them that reputation which is acquired by distinguished exertions and by public speaking in this House. I think it due to the Members of this House to draw attention to these facts, and there never was a more deserving instance of that merit than may be claimed by the friends of the late Mr. Gregson. I am proud of having enjoyed his personal friendship, and therefore, in addition to regret for his public loss, I feel regret at the loss of a valuable and estimable friend.

CHINA—BRITISH SUBJECTS IN THE CHINESE SERVICE.—QUESTION.
COLONEL SYKESasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether the Order in Council of the 1st March, 1864, has been enforced, and all British subjects withdrawn from the service of the Emperor of China and that of Provincial Mandarins?
MR. LAYARDreminded the hon. and gallant Member that the Government had no power to withdraw from the service of the Emperor of China any person who might be in that service. Those who were in Her Majesty's service, and who had received permission to serve under the Emperor of China, had had that permission withdrawn; but as regarded those who were not in Her Majesty's service, if they remained in the service of the Emperor of China, it would be at their own peril.

ABSTRACT OF WRECKS AND CASUALTIES.—QUESTION.
MR. CAVEasked the President of the Board of Trade, When the "Abstract of the Returns of Wrecks and Casualties on the Coasts of the United Kingdom" for the year ending 31st December, 1863, which
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was laid upon the table last Session, will be delivered to Members; and whether there is any necessity for the publication of these Returns, being two years in arrear?
MR. MILNER GIBSONsaid, the presentation of the Returns had been delayed by pressure upon the Department. The Returns for 1863 were, however, in type, and would be delivered in a few days; and those for 1864 would be presented by Easter, or very soon after.

PUBLICATION OF IRISH RECORDS.

  QUESTION.
  COLONEL DUNNEasked the Secretary to the Treasury, If the Government intend to proceed at once with the publication of the Patent and Close Rolls and other Irish Records; in what form they will be published, and by whom and in what manner they are to be edited; and when the Brehon Laws would be published?
  MR. PEELsaid, the preparation of the Index or Calendar, like the English Calendar to the Chancery Rolls, had been placed in the hands of Mr. Morrow, an officer of the Irish Records Department. After some progress had been made in the work, and two or three volumes had been published, in consequence of complaints which were made in that House, and of a pamphlet which had obtained considerable circulation as to the imperfect manner in which the work had been executed, the Government directed the further progress of the work to be suspended, in order that an inquiry might be made into the merits of the publication. The Master of the Rolls in this country, at the request of the Government, appointed Mr. Duffus Hardy and Mr. Brewer to make the inquiry, and the result of their report had been to exculpate Mr. Morrow. Mr. Morrow had, however, expressed to the Master of the Rolls in Ireland his unwillingness to proceed with the work; but he proposed to prepare corrigenda to the volumes already published, and indexes to the names of persons and places. Under these circumstances, the publication of the work had been resumed. It was hoped that the Brehon Laws would be published this year, and an estimate of the expense would be laid before the House.

THE KIRWEE PRIZE MONEY.

  QUESTION.
  MR. MILLERasked the Secretary of State for India, When the Kirwee prize

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  money is to be issued; and whether the pending decision in the Admiralty Court will be final?
  SIR CHARLES WOODstated, that he apprehended the decision of this question would not in the least degree depend on him, but rather on the Treasury. The matter had been referred to the Admiralty Court, and he could not say when their decision would be come to, or form any idea when the money would be paid.

  NEW ZEALAND.—QUESTION.
  MR. ARTHUR MILLSinquired of the Colonial Secretary, Whether he has received by the Mails, which arrived yesterday, any Despatches from the Governor of New Zealand with respect to the war; and whether it is true that any proposition has been made to the Colonial Parliament with a view of withdrawing Her Majesty's forces from the Colony?
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, it would be known to those who had read the voluminous papers which had already been presented to the House upon the subject of New Zealand, that at the time when these papers were sent home, the Governor was engaged in a controversy with his advisers upon the subject principally of the disposal of the Queen's troops, and of the terms to be offered to the Natives for their submission and return to their allegiance. At that time the Governor had, on his own authority, in obedience to instructions from home, but without the concurrence of his Ministers, offered terms on which the Natives should be permitted to return to their allegiance. He (Mr. Cardwell) had that day received despatches by the mail from New Zealand, the purport of which was that the Governor had formed a new Ministry upon principles which, he assured him, were in conformity with the instructions he had received from home; that the new Ministry confidently expected to enjoy the confidence of a large majority of the Assembly, and that they had recognized the act of the Governor in offering terms of submission to the Natives, without insisting upon that which the Governor believed to be impossible—namely, the condition of the universal surrender of arms. He further held in his hand certain Resolutions of the Assembly of New Zealand, dated on the 6th of December last, which were to the effect—
  "While the House expresses its deep gratitude for the generous assistance rendered by the mother country to the colony, and while it does
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  not dispute the claim of the Imperial Government to exercise a reasonable control over the policy of the colony, while the colony is receiving the aid of the British troops, it nevertheless is resolved to make every possible effort to place itself in a position of self-defence against internal aggression, with a view to accepting the alternative indicated by the Home Government—namely, the withdrawal of Her Majesty's land forces at the earliest possible period consistent with the maintenance of Imperial interests and the safety of the colony."
  He had also heard that the principal Native Chief, William Thompson, had applied to the Governor for an extension of the period during which, according to the Proclamation, it was open to the Natives to return to their allegiance, assigning reasons which were not in their nature unsatisfactory, but the Governor had not had time to consult his responsible advisers as to the reception that ought to be given to the proposal.
  MR. ARTHUR MILLSasked, whether the despatches would be laid upon the table at an early period?
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, he was always anxious to have all papers laid on the table as soon as possible, and he would take care to do so on the present occasion.

COURTS OF JUSTICE BUILDING BILL.

  [BILL 5.] SECOND READING.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2o.— (Mr. Attorney General.)
  MR. F. S. POWELLsaid, that although recent experience in the conduct of public works in this country had not been of such a character as to induce many hon. Members to take part in that discussion on the subject, he wished to say a few words, partly for the purpose of drawing forth some explanations from the Government, and partly to direct public attention to the question. He hoped they should obtain more explanation than they had already had, with respect to the calculations upon which the estimate of £750,000 for the construction of the courts was arrived at, who the gentlemen were by whom that estimate was framed, and what was the character of the buildings to be constructed for that sum. It was scarcely necessary to remind the House how great was the excess usually found over the first expense when a public building was completely out of hand; and he thought it was much more likely to be so in the present case, when the price of materials had been so greatly enhanced and the wages of workmen had also increased. He trusted the Government

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  would pay due attention to the convenience of the public, and to the recommendation of the Commissioners who had issued the Report of 1860, advising that convenient access should be given, not only to those engaged in the causes, but also to such persons as might come there to learn, or to satisfy a reasonable curiosity and interest. It had been rightly said by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Cowper) that time was money, but convenience was time; and if convenience was a matter of importance in the arrangement of a public court, an important subordinate element was ventilation. Those who had been called upon to take part in the administration of the public justice of the country, whether as magistrates, members of the Bar, or jurors, must be aware how poisonous, dangerous, and almost fatal, was the atmosphere in which the business was done. It was not a question of mere comfort whether there should be improved ventilation or not. It was not even a question of health. But it was a matter which had great effect upon the efficiency of the court when the energies of those engaged in the transaction of business were impaired by breathing a vitiated atmosphere. He trusted this would not be considered a premature suggestion. Before a stone of the building was laid, or the plan finally adopted, the question of ventilation must be settled. If they commenced on a good system they would be able to carry it out satisfactorily; but if they commenced on an imperfect system they would not be able afterwards to remedy the defect. He wished to have some explanation as to the mode in which the architect was to be selected. He trusted it was not to be confined to those who had had offices in London, but that gentlemen in the country would also have the advantage of displaying their skill. The experience of the construction of courts of justice in London was small. In Leeds, Liverpool, and Manchester, noble halls of justice had been constructed. Amongst those which had been erected none was so convenient with regard to its arrangements, or afforded so much accommodation, as the Manchester Assize Courts, and he hoped the distinguished architect who constructed those courts would have the opportunity of sending in his plans. In that case the Judges had testified their approbation, and the Bar and the public had joined in the common testimony. Baron Pigott stated, at the opening of those courts, that—
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  "There was not in the United Kingdom any place more worthy of the administration of justice than that in which they were assembled, and that in regard to the convenience of the public, the bar, and the bench nothing seemed to be wanting."
  In constructing the courts in the neighbourhood of Lincoln's Inn, it might be desirable to bear in mind the noble buildings which had been recently erected there and in the Middle Temple. In removing the courts from Westminster Hall it might not be inconvenient to remember that, seeing it would be necessary to have a Great Hall of entrance by means of which the different courts might be approached, it would be very desirable to adopt such a style of architecture as would reproduce Westminster Hall, not in the grandeur of its proportions, not in historic associations, but in its general artistic arrangements and dispositions, blending the future with the past—the characteristic of the policy of England. In suggesting to the Government this style of building, he believed that one comparatively modest in point of ornament would satisfy the demands of good taste. He hoped they would avoid that penurious parsimony which might be convenient for the moment, but would afterwards produce regret. He hoped they would also avoid a profuse and lavish expenditure, which true art did not invite, and which was the greatest enemy of artistic progress.
  MR. HADFIELDalso bore testimony to the beauty and convenience of the Manchester Assize Courts. Unless care was taken that the inside of the new courts was made as convenient as the outside was beautiful, the great objects of the Bill would be lost. Better air, heat, light, and sound, were absolutely indispensable. It was right that the architect who built the Manchester courts should be free to compete, and, if so, he would have a fair chance of coming in for the prize.
  MR. KINNAIRDsaid, before the hon. and learned Gentleman should reply to the questions which had been put, he wished to know whether his attention had been called to the subject of the site. The site was said to be of no less extent than seven and a-half acres, and it was covered with a dense mass of houses inhabited by the humbler and poorer classes. One of the most perplexing questions of the day was how to provide accommodation for the working classes. They were all aware that one of the difficulties with which they had to deal was that which

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  had arisen from the railway and other public improvements in London, which had caused the removal of large numbers of dwellings, and had raised rents to an incredible degree. Of late years there had been very great difficulty in finding for them even commonly decent dwellings at a moderate rent, and that difficulty was daily and yearly increasing. He would, therefore, inquire of the hon. and learned Gentleman, whether the Government had taken into consideration the great displacing of the working classes which would be caused if the present plan were carried out in the manner proposed, and whether they were preparing any measure which might in some degree remedy the great inconvenience which would be produced by it. The Government ought to set an example in these matters, and where they displaced so large a number of poor tenements they should do something to supply accommodation for those who were thus ejected.
  MR. H. BAILLIEwas glad the hon. Member for Perth had called the attention of the House to that subject, and trusted, that in Committee, clauses would be introduced for the purpose of constructing model lodging houses for the great mass of the people who might be displaced by the new courts. It was very discreditable to the foresight of the House that no provision of that kind had ever been made in Railway Bills. A. very different course was pursued by the Emperor of the French in Paris. Where-ever great clearances were made in that city model lodging houses were provided, as a matter of course, for those persons who had been displaced in carrying out improvements. He should be glad to see a similar plan adopted in England.
  MR. G. W. BENTINCKsaid, he could not but think that they were proceeding somewhat hastily on a subject of this great importance. The Bill had been ushered in by petitions from a number of members of the legal profession, on the score of convenience. There could be no doubt that the utmost convenience should be afforded for carrying on the law business of the country; but before the House assented to the second reading of the Bill it ought to have some clear information upon the financial part of the question. The hon. and learned Gentleman, in introducing the measure, had stated what the estimates were, and the sources from which the funds were to be supplied. He understood the hon. and learned Gentleman to intimate that no de-
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  mand would be made on the public purse for the construction of these buildings.
  THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, the outlay would be only £200,000.
  MR. G. W. BENTINCK: The hon. and learned Gentleman said the outlay from the public purse would only be £200,000. There was no instance on record that any public building was ever constructed for the sum estimated. There was no case in which it did not exceed nearly one-half, and for the correctness of that assertion he might refer to the Houses of Parliament. But it was stated the other night by the hon. Member for Evesham (Sir Henry Willoughby), that a certain portion of the funds which had been mentioned as applicable to these buildings was already mortgaged for other purposes. He, therefore, hoped to have some information on that subject. They all heard a great deal about retrenchment and economy, but they saw very little in practice. They were shortly about to discuss the efficiency of our naval armaments, with respect to guns and ships; and, therefore, a more inopportune moment could not be found than the present for asking for the construction of buildings which were not absolutely indispensable, and which would involve large demands on the public purse. He trusted some guarantee would be given, on the part of the Government, that the sum required from the public purse should not be in excess of that which had been stated.
  COLONEL SYKESsaid, it had recently been his misfortune to be summoned as a witness at one of the courts at Westminster, and he fortunately met with the hon. and learned Member for Tiverton (Mr.Denman), who directed him to the Queen's Bench. On arriving there he, with considerable difficulty, manibus pedibusque, forced his way in, and again caught the eye of his hon. and learned Friend, who told him that he was in the wrong place, and that he must go to a secondary court somewhere else, but the locality of which he could not describe. By the assistance of one of the ushers of the court he at length found his way, and contrived to get up to the witness-box. After many hours' detention he acquitted himself of the duty which had been imposed upon him, and retired most heartily disgusted with Her Majesty's courts of law. It was not much bigger than a rat-trap, and he thought such rooms were a disgrace to the country, and unworthy of the dignity of the bench. To call them public courts of justice was a mockery of the term, because the public could not get in. As an econo-

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  mist he hoped these little dens would be removed, and that better courts would be constructed on some other and more convenient site.
  MR. WALPOLE: One argument in favour of the measure is undoubtedly the great advantage which will arise from the proper concentration of the courts of law and equity. In addition to this, I can quite believe that, provided proper care be taken to secure other dwellings for such of the working classes as are dislodged, the adoption of the site proposed would confer great benefit on that part of the town. Admitting this to the full, I still feel that there are strong objections to this Bill— objections which at all events ought to be stated. It is possible that these objections may be completely answered, and in that case nobody is more able to answer them than my hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General. I know the Commissioners reported that the site now selected was the best for the purpose of these courts. Perhaps I may be in a minority, but I own that I should have doubted whether this was the best site. Your object is the concentration of the law courts. But, according to your present plan, you will not concentrate the courts. The Courts of Appeal are here at Westminster, and will not be removed. The House of Lords and the Privy Council, the two great courts which control all the other courts, are within a stone's throw of this House. It is to them that you must look for the ultimate decision of the law; and the best counsel will always be taken from other tribunals to argue before them. My own opinion, therefore, would have been that if you improve the courts you have here, and make them harmonize with the magnificent building you have here, adding thereto from the Clock Tower another building reaching all along the side of Bridge Street, and continuing this on the other side of Palace Yard if necessary, you would provide amply for the courts of law and equity. I confess I should have thought that that was the most economical plan, and it would have completely concentrated both the courts of first jurisdiction and those of appeal. That is the first point on which my hon. and learned Friend ought to satisfy the House. The second point is, that nothing would be so uneconomical, and, therefore, so unwise, as to part with good courts if you have any at present. Now, according to all the evidence taken before the Commissioners and the Committee of 1861, it appears
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  that the Rolls Court, the Lords Justices', and the Lord Chancellor's Courts, and the Court of the Vice Chancellor of England are well adapted for the purposes of justice. As regards the courts of equity, therefore, there are four good courts, the two Vice Chancellors alone require additional accommodation. Assuming you are going to build on the site selected, is it wise to provide for four courts, and thereby incur that increased expense, when the old ones are as suitable as can be desired? The third objection is one of a graver kind, and has reference to the financial part of the measure. Substantially, you propose to go to the Suitors Fund for £1,200,000. Now, independently of the question raised as to the sufficiency of the estimate, and assuming that that estimate will not be exceeded, are you really doing what is just and proper with regard to "that fund? That fund belongs to the suitors, and has been appropriated from time to time to the most legitimate purpose to which it could be applied—namely, to that of reducing the fees paid by the suitors in the Court of Chancery, and thus the administration of justice has been rendered much cheaper than it would otherwise have been. By taking away this fund, you will diminish the power of that court to still further reduce the fees, and the suitors will not derive that benefit from it to which they are justly entitled. Another point to which I beg to draw your attention is, that by a Return laid before the House it appears that with the exception of between £300 and £400 the fund is absolutely exhausted by the fixed charges. If that be so, I put it to the House whether you are willing to incur the responsibility, or rather the liability, of making good the charges upon the fund out of the revenues of the country to an amount beyond that which the necessity of the case requires. I admit fully that you ought to concentrate the courts where necessity compels, but I deny that you ought to part with any of the existing courts when you can, by retaining them, save the country great expense. I further "say that you are not entitled to take this fund from the suitors, to whom it rightfully belongs, till the fees are diminished to the amount to which, under the present regulations, they are entitled. I question very much indeed the policy which would recommend this House, under the plea of obtaining this £1,200,000 from the Court of Chancery, to bind the country to incur the risk of such large liabilities as

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  I feel confident will fall upon the Consolidated Fund if this measure be adopted. I hope Some satisfactory explanation will be given upon these points, but I really cannot at present perceive how the difficulties I have referred to can be overcome.
  MR. MALINSsaid, the right hon. Member who had just sat down had remarked that even if the proposed scheme were adopted there would still be two principal courts of justice which would be at a distance from the rest. In answer to that objection, he must reply that the Court of Privy Council only sat about six weeks in the year, and he saw no reason why it could not be accommodated in the proposed new building. The Privy Council Office had no particular charm, and no one could feel anxious to sit in the cockpit at Whitehall. The Judges who sat there were chiefly the Law Lords, and it would be quite as convenient for them to go to the new courts. The objection on that head, therefore, of his right hon. Friend (Mr. Walpole), fell to the ground. With regard to the House of Lords, he hoped to live to see the day when they would consent to abandon their jurisdiction of appeal, and when instead there would be a great court of final appeal sitting the whole of the year, where and when justice was usually administered, and not at the present inconvenient times and place. But supposing the present system were continued, it was well known that their lordships seldom heard more than one case in a day, and as they were invariably cases of the highest importance they more frequently each required several days. If any hon. Member would go to the Bar of the House of Lords he would find no more than six counsel, and never more than two solicitors, so that the whole number inconvenienced would only be from six to eight of a very limited although eminent class. The right hon. Gentleman's suggestion, on the other hand, of bringing the courts down to Westminster, would oblige every barrister, solicitor, and suitor to be put to the inconvenience of running about London in cabs, wasting time and money in a manner which was discreditable to the country. The right hon. Gentleman totally differed in his opinion of a proper site from what was almost the universal opinion of the profession. He had the pleasure of stating to the House that the Society of Lincoln's Inn, which was supposed to be adverse to the scheme, was now in favour of it. The question was yesterday brought before the Council of the Society of Lin-
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  coln's Inn, at which there was a large attendance, consisting of thirty-five most distinguished members of that body, when a motion to present an adverse petition was rejected. He saw there his right hon. Friend, although he was not aware whether or not he voted for the petition. [Mr. WALPOLE: I was not there at all.] The assembly was so unusually large that it would account for his mistake. If the right hon. Gentleman had been there, he would have greatly modified the opinions with which he had just favoured the House. He would have found the almost unanimous opinion of the council against him, and Lincoln's Inn might now be reckoned, not as an opponent, but as a supporter of the scheme. With regard to the Lord Chancellor's and senior Vice Chancellor's Courts, although they were not so bad as the rest, and were fit to sit in, it should be borne in mind that all the courts of equity were totally deficient in the appendages of a court. If the memory of the hon. Member for the University of Cambridge had not become rusty, he must have remembered that the courts at Lincoln's Inn, besides being most indifferent in themselves, were totally deficient in appendages, without which it was scarcely possible to carry on the business of a court. There was no accommodation for the public; there were no places for the witnesses or the officers of the court to remain in; neither was there a decent retiring room for the Judges. He was sorry the hon. Member was not present when the Attorney General introduced the Bill this day last week; as, if he had been, his objections to the financial part of the measure would have been entirely removed. On that occasion the hon. and learned Gentleman went into the details of the question, and made a statement which thoroughly satisfied the House that, although the Suitors' Fund might for the moment be subject to certain charges, it would undoubtedly be sufficient to reimburse the Treasury in the amount which might be advanced for the requirements of the Bill. He felt persuaded that if the Government had come to the House and said they wanted for the purpose contemplated the sum of £50,000 a year, and the country was too poor to give such a sum, the profession to which he had the honour to belong would have been willing that a tax should be put upon the suitors in order to reimburse the country the money it had advanced. He was sure that there would be ample funds to meet every charge

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  and every liability. With respect to the site, he considered that it was the best the world could afford. It was the centre of the legal world, it wag the centre between the mercantile world and the West End— it was most conveniently placed for the juries of London and Middlesex, being equally convenient for the merchants of London and the gentlemen of the West End, and it was easy of access from all parts of the metropolis. As to the buildings which would be removed to make way for this improvement, he was sure that every one would be sorry to see them replaced elsewhere. Their removal would confer a great benefit on the public, as it was one of the worst neighbourhoods for squalor and wretchedness left in London. They could not be demolished too early. When the new courts were erected they would have for the first time in the history of this country an opportunity of seeing the administration of justice carried on in a suitable building. The project did the Government great honour, and he hoped they would carry it successfully. This was said to be a moribund Parliament, and so it was; but he could only say that if it carried this measure it might die with honour.
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL: Sir, I think that if my right hon. Friend the Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Walpole) had been present when this subject was discussed last Friday evening, he would have found some of the questions which he has asked to-night answered by anticipation. Nevertheless, I am very glad to take the opportunity of answering them again, and also of replying to other objections which have been raised either on that or on the present occasion. With regard to the site, my right hon. Friend is evidently conscious that the impression which he has formed is different from that which is almost universally entertained by other persons who have given their attention to the subject. The reason—independent of the want of space, which I venture to think is quite conclusive—against the idea of concentrating the courts of justice and offices at Westminster is this—that it would be perpetuating one of the most considerable evils which we wish to remedy by concentration—I mean the separation of the administration of justice in the Courts from those parts of the town where barristers have their chambers, in the Temple and Lincoln's Inn, and where solicitors in general have their
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  offices. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will recollect the great inconvenience to which practitioners in equity were subject when those who had to prepare pleadings in their chambers were every Term dragged down to Westminster, and obliged to leave, day after day, business of the greatest importance, in which the interests of large numbers of suitors were concerned. That business was delayed and postponed, and a great and continually increasing expense arose out of each delay and each postponement. If I were to estimate the money value to equity barristers alone of the change which was made when the Courts began to sit always at Lincoln's Inn, I should not err in placing it at a very large annual sum. But what was saved or gained to the barristers is a very slight approximation indeed to the measure of what was saved or gained to the suitors, who are infinitely more concerned in the ultimate result, and who pay for everything at every stage of every cause. As to the Privy Council, I entirely agree with everything that my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Wallingford has said. There is no magic power in Downing Street. The Privy Council might have a Council Chamber in the new Palace of Justice; indeed, I have no doubt it will be provided for there, and all, therefore, that remains is the House of Lords. That tribunal, as my right hon. Friend has said, decides cases of great importance; but the number of cases decided in the House of Lords during a Session is comparatively small, and the persons engaged in each of them are comparatively few in number. To me, personally, it would be very convenient to be near the House of Lords, but the number of counsel whose interests are involved in the matter is not large, and the number of solicitors is proportionately small. I think, therefore, that no practical reason can be urged in favour of retaining the site of the courts at Westminster. Before I entirely leave the question of site, I will make a few observations upon the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Perth and some other hon. Gentlemen as to the population which we shall displace by these buildings. Of course, that is a matter not to be left out of sight or forgotten when operations of this kind are undertaken. I believe that my hon. Friend has, in this instance, very greatly over-estimated the number of persons concerned. I cannot tell what the population actually is, but the number of houses that

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  will be destroyed is about 400; and, crowded as the population may be, it is impossible that it should approach to anything like the figure which the hon. Gentleman supposes. That population, however, will have to be provided, or to provide itself, with lodgings elsewhere. Now, if we were led by experience to doubt that the industrious members of that population would be able to do so, that would be a very serious check on all undertakings of this description. But experience does not suggest any such doubt. We have had very large and extensive improvements displacing populations of the same character in various parts of the metropolis, and the public has never undertaken to provide them with new habitations. The law of supply and demand—the laws of nature answer the purpose better. The change does not take place without notice, nor in Be great a hurry that the persons displaced have not time to look for lodgings or habitations elsewhere. If that is so, and if the results of experience justify us in relying upon their being able to find them, I think we can all look with satisfaction at the change which is now contemplated, because it would be impossible to conceive a considerable population collected together in any part of the metropolis under circumstances more disadvantageous, either to their physical or to their moral health, than those of the population which will be displaced by these buildings. Everybody who knows the district must lament that any part of the industrious people of this country should be crammed together in such a space with so many temptations to immorality surrounding them on all sides, I suppose that the process which goes on when improvements of this kind are made is this:—Those whose occupations require that they should live in that particular part of the town find lodgings in some immediately adjoining neighbourhood; while others, to whom the locality of their dwellings is of less importance, move further off, and thus by degrees a greater number get into those more healthy regions, the suburbs and remoter parts of the metropolis, and have the benefit of purer air, freer space, and better houses. Therefore, I do not think that we have reason to look with alarm or dissatisfaction upon the probable result of this Bill in respect to the displacement of the population in the districts proposed to be appropriated. I now address myself to the second remark made by my right hon. Friend, who said that
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  nothing could be so uneconomical as when you had got good courts or buildings to part with them and spend money in building others. I doubt a little, upon the question of economy, whether perpetually patching up does not in the end cost more than having a good article at once; but I further differ with my right hon. Friend upon the question of fact. I cannot agree with him that any one of the courts which he has named is as good as it ought to be. The hon. Member for Wallingford has justly said that even the best of them is entirely devoid of all those accessories which are needed to make a good court. There is no consultation room for counsel connected with any of the courts mentioned, except the Rolls' Court. The Bolls' Court, I agree, is much the best—so much the best that by comparison it really approaches to a good court; but, even there, there is not the accommodation which there ought to be for jury trials. And really, as to the others, I should be ashamed of any new Palace of Justice which did not provide infinitely better accommodation than they afford, to say nothing of the fact of the nation being tenant at will, or on terms something like that, to a private society—the Society of Lincoln's Inn—a state of things which I cannot say I think is one in which the administration of justice ought to be left. I think my right hon. Friend said, that upon the inquiry of 1860 and 1861 everybody was satisfied with these courts. If he will look again at the language of the Commissioners of 1860 and see how they "damn with faint praise," saying that in these courts, as compared with the others, the Judges are accommodated with some regard to decency, and some reasonable degree of convenience, I think he will see that they by no means represent even these courts as being such as the nation ought to be satisfied with. I now come to the question of finance, and I will first answer the inquiry made by my hon. Friend the Member for the borough of Cambridge (Mr. F. S. Powell). My hon. Friend asked for information as to the grounds upon which we had adopted the estimate of £750,000, as one which may reasonably be relied on by the House as to the cost of these buildings. I will tell him, and I think they are as good grounds as can reasonably be desired. The estimate of Sir Charles Barry, and the estimate of Mr. Abraham, who, in 1861, prepared a detailed plan of the buildings, were both considerably under £750,000.

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  In 1861, the Lords of the Treasury thought it their duty to lay a Minute upon the table of this House, stating that, without having gone into the matter, they were led to distrust the estimates of the probable cost of these buildings which had up to that time been presented. They stated from conjecture that there might very likely be an excess of the estimate by as much as £500,000. That was an alarming—calculation, I cannot call it, for there was no calculation—but an alarming conjecture, which appeared only as a conjecture at that time. Bat that having been done, the Treasury, before they saw fit to sanction the present proposal, desired the officers of the Board of Works to take the necessary steps to enable them to form their own opinion upon the subject. Accordingly, the site was valued, house by house, this year, by Mr. Pennethorne, of the Board of Works, at a total sum little exceeding £700,000; and last year Mr. Hunt, the surveyor and adviser on such matters of the same Board, went carefully into the matter, and the result was that he was then satisfied that the estimate of £750,000 for the cost of the building was one that might be relied on. Therefore, every possible care has been taken to form a satisfactory opinion upon that subject. Of course, every one is aware that when you begin to build you may, if you choose, exceed any estimate which can, under any circumstances, be made; but I believe that the Treasury are fully determined, as far as in them lies, to watch narrowly over the execution of these works, and to take all proper measures to check the expense, and to prevent any extravagant expenditure upon mere ornament or decoration, as distinguished from actually useful work, without which there is reason to believe that there will be no danger of the estimate being exceeded. Now, with regard to the question of the funds which it is proposed to use for this purpose in repayment of the public advances. My right hon. Friend has not thoroughly understood the proposal which is made by the Government. I think that he has hardly studied the Bill which has been laid upon the table, for he imagines that we propose to provide these funds in a way different from that which is really suggested by the measure. The "suitors' fund" is not an expression which it is convenient to use, unless we desire that misunderstanding should arise. The funds, which alone it is proposed to use, are "the
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  surplus interest" and "the surplus fee" funds. "Surplus interest" is not quite a correct expression, because the fund arises from surplus dividends on stock, and their accumulation. These surplus dividends and surplus fees are the result of the management of the funds in the Court of Chancery by the State, under Acts of Parliament. They represent the aggregate profit of the past management of the court; the other funds which remain being so completely adequate to answer all the demands of the suitors that, down to this day, no sale of any part of them has ever been required to meet orders for payment of money out of court. It has never been necessary for the purpose of paying what was due to any suitor to touch any portion of that fund in which the suitor's cash has actually been invested. In point of fact, ever since that fund was called into existence in the middle of last century, only seven times has it been necessary for any purpose to sell any portion of it, and then not to meet a deficiency in the cash standing at the bank to pay what was due to the suitors, but merely to keep the bank in such an amount of cash as was thought proper for their reasonable remuneration. So far, therefore, as the guarantee of the suitors' funds by the State is concerned I think it may be treated as merely nominal. Then comes the question of the charges upon the income of these funds which I say represent savings arising from the management of the funds of suitors by the court. These funds in the aggregate amount to £1,500,000, and we propose to take from them only £1,000,000 stock—which will produce £900,000— leaving £500,000 stock. That sum of £500,000 will provide, without having recourse to the public purse, for all the existing annual charges or compensations on the fund which we withdraw. These annual charges to the amount of £50,000, exceeding therefore the whole income of the £1,500,000, consist of compensations or terminable annuities, which fall in at the rate of £3,500 per annum, and which, according to past experience, may be assumed to expire to an extent sufficient, at all events, to equalize the income and the expenditure, in about eighteen years from the present time if not redeemed. By the Bill we propose to give the Lord Chancellor power to redeem and buy up any of those compensations which the owners may desire

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  to have commuted into a capital sum; but, supposing that that power should not be called into action, and supposing all the charges, up to £45,000 per annum, the total income of the £1,500,000 stock, to continue annual charges, they will naturally come to 'an end, according to calculations founded on experience, in eighteen years. Out of the £500,000 which we do not use for the direct purposes of the building, we shall pay annually the amount of charges which would otherwise have been met by the income of the £1,000,000 we withdraw, which would produce in the Three per Cents £30,000 a year. There is a deficiency then, at the outset, of £30,000 a year, to meet some of the annual charges on the fund, which will increase in each year, until balanced by the falling in of compensations, by the withdrawal of part of the remaining principal fund; and we take the deficiency from year to year out of the £500,000 we reserve. According to a calculation of Mr. Finlaison, £380,000 will probably provide for all these terminable annuities, but we take the sum for safety at £500,000, and we' have not only got stock to the amount of £500,000, but also a further sum of £100,000 cash, being the accumulated surplus of fees which remains uninvested. The Treasury, therefore, are perfectly satisfied that the half million of stock, and the accumulated surplus cash of the Suitors' Fee Fund, supply a reserve amply sufficient to meet the whole of these compensations as they fall in. If it should turn out that no part of these terminable compensations should be redeemed or bought up by the State, but that the whole should annually be paid out of the £500,000, till they are reduced to £5,000 a year, the result will be that at the end of eighteen years about £150,000 stock will remain out of the £500,000 stock, as a clear surplus available for the reduction of suitors' fees. Under these circumstances, there can be no doubt that the State takes on itself no charge except £200,000, for which there is an equivalent in the sites which will remain, and in the saving of rents now paid by the Government for other offices and buildings. My right hon. Friend appears to think that the fund now proposed to be taken as a building fund is in some sense a fund belonging to the suitors, and that its only legitimate appropriation would be to reduce the fees of suitors. I hoped that what I said on a former occasion, would have been
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  satisfactory on that subject. The phrase "belonging to the suitors," when so used, has no meaning to my mind. If it means belonging to a particular suitor, or to particular suitors, then I could understand it, for it Would involve spoliation; but it is clear that there is not a human being in existence, and never was a human being in existence, who could pretend to have any legal or moral right to one shilling of this money. Therefore the question is, whether money which belongs to no one does not belong to the State. If so, has the State made any appropriation of it which it cannot revoke? On former occasions the State has made appropriations of it towards building courts of justice, paying salaries, and keeping up the establishment of the courts; and we now propose to apply the money to a use exactly similar in principle, but in my opinion more important. With respect to the particular question, whether it would be better for the suitors to have the fees now paid in Chancery reduced out of this fund, or to see vexatious delays and expenses in the administration of justice got rid of, I may observe that the fees only amount to 8 per cent of the cost of litigation, while the utmost extent to which the whole income of this fund would reduce them is less than half that amount; and all solicitors throughout the country agree that the suitors will gain a far greater amount in mere money, by the benefits which will arise from the concentration of the courts. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Cambridge University, the other evening said that the Report made last year by the Commission appointed to inquire into the Chancery Funds was at variance with this scheme; but, upon that point, I must correct my right hon. and learned Friend, and to state that Mr. Field, Mr. Rogers, and Mr. Cook-son, who signed that Report, are among the most active and earnest promoters of this measure for the concentration of the courts of law and equity. They thought that their proposition of allowing 2 per cent interest to the suitors on their cash balances would, by causing a great increase in the amount of cash left in court uninvested, augment instead of diminishing the income of the court applicable to the payment of the annuities and compensations. I ask the House not to allow themselves to be led astray by any extraneous argument, but to give a fair and candid consideration to the scheme, which I feel

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  confident will not involve any charge upon the State beyond that which has been avowed.
  SIR FRANCIS GOLDSMIDsaid, that though the Attorney General believed that the effect of the Government scheme would be to enable the poor who now occupied tenements on the proposed site to find better houses elsewhere, the House might judge of its probable result from what had taken place in the east of London, where the introduction of railways had led to the removal of many houses. He was informed by those who were acquainted with the subject, that wretched and crowded as were the dwellings which were swept away for the improvements effected at the east end of London, their occupants had been driven into other dwellings still more wretched and more crowded. Therefore, he thought the House should not adopt this change without providing a remedy for those who might be injuriously affected by it.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill read 2o, and committed for Thursday next.

  COURT OF CHANCERY (IRELAND) (No. 2) BILL— [BILL 25.]
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, that in moving for leave to introduce a Bill relating to the constitution, practice, and procedure of the Court of Chancery in Ireland, he begged leave to refer to the fact that a Bill on the same subject had been brought in a few nights before by the Attorney General. Not satisfied with the management of the business of England, that hon. and learned Gentleman had kindly undertaken to transact the business of Ireland likewise. The Bill brought in the other evening was nearly a transcript of the measure introduced last Session by the then Attorney Genaral for Ireland, but which was not acceptable to the House— and, in fact, utterly failed. Notwithstanding this, the hon. and learned Attorney General had brought in the Bill without altering it materially, and seemed determined to carry it through. Having himself opposed that Bill, he had felt that it was incumbent upon him not to content himself with the easy task of objecting to the proposals of others, but to examine the whole subject, and to prepare a Bill which he believed would be acceptable, and he had adopted whatever he might find to be useful either in the re-
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  commendations of the Commissioners or in the measure of which the Attorney General had somewhat inconsiderately taken charge. His first objection to the scheme before the House was, that in a Bill of 194 clauses he had jumbled together two things which ought to have been kept distinct—namely, the provisions relating to patronage and financial considerations, which might give rise to much difference of opinion, and the provisions relating to practice and procedure, about which there ought to be no dispute, as far at least as the desirability of having a tribunal at once cheap, speedy, economical, and satisfactory in its working was concerned. For this he did not blame the English Attorney General, who, he believed, had not bestowed a thought on the subject; but those who had framed the Bill had designedly abandoned the precedent of the English Chancery Reform, where the clauses dealing with the Master's offices and reconstituting the court were thrown into one Bill, while the clauses affecting practice and procedure were comprised in a separate measure. That was the clear and natural division of the subject, and it ought to have been followed in the present case. He proposed to follow it himself; and accordingly the first part of the Bill which he asked leave to bring in sought to amend the constitution of the Irish Court of Chancery and to reduce the number of Judges in the Irish Landed Estates Court; and the other part dealt with practice and procedure. The object of the first part of the Bill introduced by the Government was to pay off for the rest of their lives four existing officers, who were practically Vice Chancellors, and then appoint in their stead one new Vice Chancellor, to be speedily followed by a second, with a new set of Chief Clerks and other officials. That, he thought, was a highly inconvenient course, and contrary to anything like economy or the real objects of the Commission. The Commission was appointed with a view to an improvement of the administration of the law, and they reported that there should be one Vice Chancellor to transact the whole business of Ireland, which was now transacted by four Masters in Chancery. But the Bill of the Government was founded on a fallacy, because it was represented that the same abuses existed in the Masters' offices in Ireland as had prevailed in the Masters' offices in England, whereas that was not the fact; and in 1850 Sir

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  John Romilly carried through Parliament an Act giving original jurisdictiction in many cases to the Irish Masters in Chancery. Therefore, the Bill of the Government was not intended to deal with the old Masters and with the abuses of their offices, but to strip these four gentlemen of all judicial functions, pension them off, and then appoint a new Vice Chancellor. Since, therefore, they were determined to have the title of Vice Chancellor—though no suitor in Ireland cared a straw about the title of the Judge, and only wanted to get out of his court as quickly as possible—he said, let it be so. He had, therefore, adopted a number of clauses from the English Bill, for the purpose of abolishing all those Ministerial duties which now belonged to the Masters in Chancery, and appointing a Vice Chancellor. Then, with the four Masters and the three Judges of the Lauded Estates Court, he said it was not just to the public to add to the number; and, therefore, he proposed that the office of Vice Chancellor should be offered in succession to the Judges of the Landed Estates Court, and if any one of them accepted the post, then that that court should consist of two Judges, and not three. The Bill constructing the Landed Estates Court was introduced by Lord Derby's Government, who felt that it would be impossible to find work in it for three Judges, and proposed that it should be composed of two. However, it was then insisted upon, he thought, by Lord John Russell, that there should be three, and as the Whigs were determined on the point, the larger number had to be inserted in Committee. There had naturally been a great falling off in the business of that tribunal. The sales which took place under it in the four years from 1851 to 1854 involved £11,500,000 worth of property; whereas, in the last four years the value of the sales was £5,610,000. The sittings of the Judges were now greatly reduced—last week the Judges of the Court sat only two days, and on those days they rose at one o'clock—and it could hardly be contended that it was necessary to retain three Judges in that Court. The actual sales, as he had shown, had diminished by one-half, and the litigated business had diminished by three-fourths, If, under those circumstances, the Government were of opinion that the time had arrived to economize, his Bill would be found to be of use to them in carrying out that object. He agreed with the Master of the Rolls that,
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  unless they watched the system of Chief Clerks closely, they would have the vices of the old system revived. He had omitted in it all reference to the office of Chief Clerk, and had provided that the Examiner of the Landed Estates Court should be the officer of the Judge. He had created no new place, and he could assure the House that the gentleman to whom he alluded would be better qualified to discharge the duties which would devolve upon him than any Chief Clerk was likely to be. If they took the Judge and his staff they would save the Treasury £5,000 a year. Having said thus much with regard to the first Bill which he proposed to introduce, he should next advert briefly to the second part of this measure, which was for the amendment of the practice and course of procedure in the High Court of Chancery. There were some things in which he agreed with, and some in which he differed from the hon. and learned Attorney General. The first point in which he differed was the verification of a bill or petition by oath, in favour of which provision the evidence was very strong, and with respect to which, in a pamphlet entitled Law Reform, written by the present Master of the Rolls—and which he should recommend to the consideration of his hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General—that distinguished Judge said, "I never could understand on what ground you make the defendant answer on oath, while you do not pledge the plaintiff to the truth of his bill." The importance of such a course of proceeding in a poor country was that it put a stop to what were called "fishing bills." It obtained, he might add, in New York, where the books of law were as good as those which were written in this country, and he therefore saw no good reason why the plaintiff should not be called upon to pledge his oath to the truth of his story. But that was not all. It was the key-stone of their system, that all statements not controverted were taken as proved. He would, in the next place, ask on what principle it was sought to reintroduce interrogatories. In England in 1863 interrogatories were filed in 1,556 cases, while in Ireland during the same time they were filed only in two. The Master of the Rolls was directly opposed to them, and he could not understand why they should be restored in defiance of the opinions of the heads of the courts in Ireland. He trusted his hon. and learned Friend would not press that upon them. He would also ask the Attorney General

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  not to press demurrers upon Ireland, which the Master of the Rolls pronounced to have three objectionable properties:—first, they delayed the suit; secondly, they wearied out the plaintiff by unnecessary expense; and thirdly, they took the money from the pocket of the plaintiff, and put it into the pocket of the solicitor of the defendant. While they had been employed in England in sixty-nine cases they were had recourse to in Ireland, during the same period, not in a single instance, and were not, therefore, required in that country. The next point he had to mention was the examination of witnesses on paper before the Examiner. There were two Examiners in Ireland appointed by the Master of the Rolls, of whom one died some time ago, and he never would appoint an Examiner in his place. He was of opinion that it was productive of the greatest abuse to send a man to be examined before a person who possessed little or no authority, and who wrote down all the rubbish which might fall from the lips of a witness, instead of allowing him to say what he had to say vivâ voce in court, The Bill, consisting of two parts, he should now tender to the Attorney General, who he doubted not would acquaint himself with its contents and give him the benefit of his opinion. Having resisted the measure which was proposed last Session, he had thought it his duty to look into the matter during the vacation, and to prepare something deserving consideration at the hands of the House.
  Moved, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to alter the Constitution and amend the Practice and Course of Proceeding in the High Court of Chancery in Ireland.—(Mr. Whiteside.)
  THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, he did not intend to offer any opposition to the Motion, but merely wished to guard himself against the supposition that he favoured the proposal. Much of what had been said by the right hon. Gentleman really had reference to points of detail, and he failed to collect from his statement why he had thought it necessary to divide the measure into two parts. The first sought to introduce a principle which was certainly rather unusual, and he doubted whether it would be for the public advantage to set the example of naming in Acts of Parliament the persons who were to be appointed to particular posts about to be created, instead of leaving the
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  appointments to the Crown, acting under the guidance of its responsible advisers. He did not think it advisable that these appointments should be made in the House of Commons, because nothing could be more invidious than to invite personal discussions as to the fitness of individuals for particular offices, especially if they already filled eminent positions from which it was proposed to remove them to the offices about to be created. At the present stage, however, it was not necessary to enter into this matter fully. He accepted with very great satisfaction the evidence which the right hon. Gentleman had now given of his disposition to approach the consideration of the subject in a spirit of fairness, and he hoped he might even look for assistance at his hands in endeavouring to work out reforms in the Irish Court of Chancery, which all parties agreed were to some extent necessary. He believed this end could best be attained by removing everything that might be objectionable from the Bill of the Government rather than by providing a separate measure. But, as he had said already, he reserved to himself the right of considering or dealing with the measure at a future stage.
  Bill to alter the Constitution and amend the Practice and Course of Proceeding in the High Court of Chancery in Ireland, ordered to be brought in by Mr. WHITESIDE and Mr. GEORGE.
  Bill presented, and read 1o [Bill 25.]

BRITISH KAFFRARIA ANNEXATION BILL— [BILL 27.]

  LEAVE. FIRST READING.
  MR. CARDWELL: I rise, Sir, to ask for leave to bring in a Bill to annex to the colony of the Cape of Good Hope a small British territory, which, though technically and legally a colony, is practically and in fact a portion of the Cape Colony. The papers which have been laid on the table will show to those who have taken the pains to read them the reasons which induce me to make this proposal on the part of the Government, and the reasons which have rendered it necessary to deal with the question now, and they will relieve me from the necessity of troubling the House with any long statement on the subject. Previously to 1847, the Great Fish River was the north-eastern frontier of the Cape Colony; but when Sir Harry Smith was Governor at the Cape, and there were troubles with the Kaffirs on

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  that frontier, he thought it expedient for the safety of the colony to annex that portion of the country which lies between the Great Fish River and the Keiskamma, and a Proclamation to that effect was accordingly issued. In the year 1848 he also annexed to the colony the port of East London, which is the port as well as the source of the Customs' revenue for British Kaffraria. The rest, up to the River Kei, remained a military outpost of the colony, and the revenues went into the treasury of the Cape Colony, and the expenses were defrayed partly, if not entirely, from the revenues of the Cape. Therefore, from that time, that part of British Kaffraria remained entirely and solely a dependency of the colony. At the close of Sir George Cathcart's war, in 1852, the Kei still remained the north-eastern boundary of the colony; but in 1858 there had been disturbances with Kreli, the paramount Chief of the Kaffirs, who was driven beyond the frontier river and across the Bashee, so that the territory between the Kei and the Bashee rivers remained unoccupied territory under British dominion. In 1860 letters patent were issued constituting the territory between the Keiskamma and the Kei a separate British Crown colony, of a character so peculiar that it had no Legislature—the Governor combined in his own person all the executive and all the legislative power. At that time it was intended to annex to this colony—that is to say—to British Kaffraria the district between the Kei and the Bashee. But the House will remember that in the autumn of last year there was a sudden alarm that Kreli was assembling his forces, and was likely to cross the Bashee into British territory, and therefore that we might not improbably be engaged in another of those troublesome, inconvenient, and costly events which formerly were familiar to us under the name of Kaffir wars. Happily for the colony, that alarm was unfounded, but it rendered it the duty of the Government carefully to consider what was the value to Great Britain of this territory between the Kei and the Bashee; whether it constituted, in fact, a source of support or a source of danger, and whether there was any point of British policy or of British interest rendering it worth while to annex this frontier territory to the possessions of the Crown. Those who have read those papers must feel that the first suggestion made to us emanated from a person entitled to great respect— the chief of the police—and this was that
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  Kreli should he driven back beyond a further river, the Umtata; and so we might have gone on from point to point until the whole of the territory in question was absorbed within the British dominions. The Governor, Sir Philip E. Wodehouse, and the Commander of the Forces justly disapproved this proposal, and determined that it was not desirable to extend the frontier, as proposed by the chief of the police— and the Commander of the Forces said that the military force, maintained at considerable expense in that colony, would not be adequate for the maintenance of so extended a frontier as that of the Bashee. In that view Her Majesty's Government entirely concurred. We said our desire was to maintain the frontier which would be most likely not to lead to hostilities, and would be most easily defended should hostilities arise. We believed the Kei to be that frontier, and we have, therefore, given instructions for the abandonment of the country beyond it. We further desired, if possible, to find a location for Kreli, and the followers we had driven to a territory in which it was impossible for him to remain, in consequence of the proceedings of other tribes; because it was clear that if any restlessness arose on his part that was rather to be attributed to the position in which we had placed him than to any other circumstance. This despatch had been anticipated by the Governor, who replied that he had already settled the Chief on a territory and made him a small allowance to secure his attachment to British rule, which he had gratefully accepted, and that the Chief and his people were quietly taking up their abodes on that territory. There, therefore, remained only the very small territory of British Kaffraria—a territory too small to constitute itself a British colony, too small to provide materials for a Government. It remains for you to consider what you will do with this territory, and the measure which I ask leave to introduce is one to unite it to Cape Colony. There are other reasons why the present opportunity should not be let pass by. The Governor has just closed the first Parliament held at Grahams Town, under circumstances which give very satisfactory promise for that experiment; the Parliament of Cape Colony has determined to have a census with a view to the revision of their representative system, and the Governor is of opinion that after this change has been effected it may be more

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  difficult to accomplish the annexation than it will be if we attempt it now. It is true that the measure has not the concurrence—the formal and official concurrence—of Cape Colony. I cannot say that it has that concurrence. On the contrary, I must admit that if we took no steps to carry out the measures until Cape Colony took it in hand, it is not likely it would be accomplished. It is necessary for the voice of the British Parliament to carry it into effect. One reason why Cape Colony is not likely to take the initiative is this—that Cape Colony knows Her Majesty's Government could not leave a small colony like British Kaffraria to its own forces in the event of defence being necessary; and the Cape Colony cannot be invaded without the enemy passing through British Kaffraria; and it is too much to expect that a Colonial Parliament should not take advantage of such a state of circumstances. I propose to introduce a Bill which will leave it to Cape Colony to make such arrangements as it thinks fit, in conference with the Governor of British Kaffraria, who is both an executive officer and a legislature, as to the terms on which this union shall take place; but I propose that, at all events, with the sanction and by the authority of the British Parliament, a union shall take place, and that the dominions of the Queen within the boundaries of the Keiskamma and the Kei shall form one territory with the Cape Colony. This will be of great advantage to British Kaffraria, to Cape Colony, and to Great Britain; and I would observe that, though the Parliament of Cape Colony has not in the aggregate agreed to the Bill, the Legislative Council of that colony has expressed its opinion that the proposed annexation is expedient. In that opinion the Governor coincides, Her Majesty's Government coincides, and I think the House will coincide. A Committee of great weight Bat in this House in 1861, and revised the military expenditure of this country in our several colonial dependencies. That Committee agreed to a recommendation that those dependencies should in future depend more upon self-reliance and less upon large forces maintained at the expense of the Imperial Treasury. My desire is to give just effect to the opinions of that Committee, and therefore I am anxious that a small territory, taken originally as a dependency of Cape Colony and for the purpose of defending it, should not be treated as a separate colony. Clearly it is better, in the interest of British Kaf-
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  fraria, in the interest of Cape Colony, and in the interest of Great Britain, that this small dependency, which is unable to provide for its own military defence, should be annexed to the colony for whose defence it was thought advisable to occupy it in the first instance. With this short explanation I hope the House will see that the Bill is one which it is advisable to have introduced. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving for leave to bring in the Bill.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill for the Incorporation of the Territories of British Kaffraria with the Colony of the Cape of Good Hope, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Secretary CARDWELL and Mr. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE.
  Bill presented, and read 1o [Bill 27].

  JURIES IN CRIMINAL CASES BILL.
  On Motion of Sir COLMAN O'LOGHLEN, Bill to declare and amend the Law in relation to the keeping together and discharge of Juries in Criminal Cases, ordered to be brought in by Sir COL-MAN O'LOGHLEN and Mr. LONGFIELD.
  Bill presented, and read 1o [Bill 26].
  House adjourned at a quarter before Eight o'clock.