Commons Sitting of 19 May 1864

MINUTES.
— SUPPLY — considered in Committee—Resolutions [May 12] reported.
PUBLIC BILLS — Ordered — County Voters (England and Wales)*; Highways Act Amendment.
First Reading — County Voters (England and Wales* [Bill 112]; Highways Act Amendment* [Bill 113].
Second Reading— Limited Penalties* [Bill 94].
Select Committee—On Thames Conservancy, Mr J. Ewart discharged, Mr. Ayrton added.
Committee—Union Assessment Committee Act Amendment [Bill 83]; Railway Companies' Powers * [Bill 30]; and Railways Construction Facilities * [Bill 29] (by same Committee).
Report — Union Assessment Committee Act Amendment*; Railway Companies' Powers *; Railways Construction Facilities*.
Third Reading — Summary Procedure (Scotland) * [Bill 76]; Admiralty Lands and Works [Bill 88], and passed.

MR. HERBERT, R.A.—PERSONAL EXPLANATION.
SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, he would request permission to be allowed to make a personal explanation respecting something which fell from him on Friday before the adjournment of the House for the recess, and which had, he believed, caused some annoyance to his hon. Friend (Mr. Cavendish Bentinck). His hon. Friend was hurt, first, at a statement which, as he thought, implied that he had spoken of Mr. Herbert's charge for the fresco in the House of Lords without that gentleman's authority; and secondly, because he had received no notice as to this statement. The facts were these:—In coming down to the House early on Friday morning to attend a Committee, he (Sir Stafford Northcote) met Mr. Herbert, who seemed much distressed at the newspaper report of what his (Sir Stafford Northcote's) hon. Friend had stated, and said he was most anxious it should be understood that he had uttered nothing that could be considered disrespectful either to the House or the Government. Mr. Herbert asked his advice, and he recommended him to communicate with his hon. Friend, who might then make a statement to the House; and he added, that if Mr. Herbert could not find his hon. Friend, he would then himself make such a statement. On coming into the House that evening, he did not find his hon. Friend present, and he, therefore, said what he did. He had apologized to his hon. Friend for not having given him notice, but he had fully understood that Mr. Herbert would do so. He had since heard that Mr. Herbert did see his hon. Friend, and it was arranged between them that nothing should be said on the subject; but as Mr. Herbert did not let him (Sir Stafford Northcote) know this, he had heard nothing about the matter. He had had a full account of the conversation which had taken place between his hon. Friend and Mr. Herbert, and though he would not trouble the House with the details of the conversation, he might say, and
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Mr. Herbert himself admitted, that the inference drawn by his hon. Friend from what passed was not an unnatural one, and that his hon. Friend might consider he was fairly justified in stating what he did. Mr. Herbert, however, positively maintained that nothing was further from his thought than to appear to dictate terms to the Government or the House. All he meant to say was, that it would be impossible for him to continue his work in the House unless he received such a remuneration as would justify him in doing so.
MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCKsaid, it was unnecessary for him after the explanation just made to assert that he had, as he thought, sufficient authority for the statement which he had addressed to the House on Thursday, and that he had not absented himself on the Friday from any wish to evade responsibility. Not only did he feel a great admiration for Mr. Herbert as an artist, but he entertained a sincere regard for him as a friend, and he would not, therefore, have said anything which he thought likely to distress him or prejudice his interest. At the same time, after the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he considered it his duty to express his view as strongly as he could that Mr. Herbert was entitled to £5,000, not as a matter of justice, but of right.

DENMARK AND GERMANY—PRUSSIAN EXACTIONS IN JUTLAND.

  QUESTION.
  MR. WHITESIDE: I wish, Sir, to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether he or the Government have received information that contributions or exactions have been demanded by the Prussian Army from the people of Denmark; and whether it is in accordance with the terms settled at the Conference that, during the armistice, the Prussian Army should be at liberty to levy these exactions?
  MR. LAYARD: Sir, as was stated the other evening, undoubtedly the understanding of the Conference was, that after the suspension of arms which was agreed upon no more forced contributions should be raised in Jutland, and, on the contrary, that all provisions should be paid for. I see by statements in the newspapers that forced contributions have been raised, but the Government have received no information on the subject.

THE AUSTRIAN SQUADRON.—QUESTION.
SIR JOHN PAKINGTON: I see, Sir, in the newspapers a statement that an Austrian squadron has proceeded to the Baltic. Has the Government any information on this subject?
SIR GEORGE GREY: I have not seen the statement, or even heard of it.
MR. LAYARD: Part of the Austrian I squadron remained behind at Lisbon, and I presume it has gone to rejoin the other vessels, not, however, in the Baltic, but in the North Sea.

RUSSIA — EMIGRATION OF THE CIRCASSIANS.—QUESTION.
MR. HENNESSYsaid, he rose to ask, Whether the Government have received from their Agents abroad any information touching the conduct of the Russian Government in Circassia; and, if so, whether they will lay the Papers upon the table?
MR. LAYARD: Sir, the Government have received despatches both from Constantinople and from our Consuls on the shores of the Black Sea, stating that a large emigration has taken place from Circassia. [Mr. HENNESSY: A forced emigration.] It is so far forced that these Circassians, having been subdued by the Russian army, consider it impossible to live under the dominion of Russia, and have taken refuge in Turkey. I may add that the utmost efforts are being made there to provide for these poor people, and the Sultan has subscribed a large sum towards furnishing them with provisions and shelter. At the same time, I believe a great mortality has taken place among them. I will look at the despatches which we have received on this subject, and, if possible, will produce them.

SUPPLY.
Resolutions [May 12] reported.

MR. DYCE, R.A.—QUESTION.
MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCK, with reference to the contract entered into between the Government and Mr. Dyce, asked. Whether the whole of the sum agreed upon had been paid, and what proportion of the paintings had been executed? In the event of the agreement not having been completed according to contract, he thought, under the circumstances, it would not be right to exact the return of the money from Mr. Dyce's representatives.
MR. COWPERsaid, Mr. Dyce had received the whole sum agreed upon in advance, and had completed six panels, two remaining unfinished. He thought it was well understood that the price which was fixed so many years ago was very inadequate to the amount of labour and skill that Mr. Dyce bestowed upon his work. No decision had been come to with respect to the work which remained to be executed. [Mr. CAVENDISH BENTINCK: With regard to the money?] No decision had been come to upon the subject; but the fullest consideration would be given to it, and he appreciated the feelings of the hon. Gentleman in wishing that nothing illiberal should be done by the Government.
Resolutions agreed to.

UNION ASSESSMENT COMMITTEE ACT AMENDMENT BILL— [BILL 83.]

  COMMITTEE.
  Order for Committee read.
  Bill considered in Committee.
  In the Committee.)
  Clause 1 (Notice of Appeal to be given to the Assessment Committee).
  MR. DODSONcalled attention to the fact that, if this clause passed in its present shape it would make the Bill inconsistent with the principal Act passed in 1862, which provided that in case the valuation list was appealed against, the Board of Guardians should be the parties to defend it; whereas this clause proposed that the assessment committees should defend the rate appearing on that list against which an appeal should be made. The inference, therefore, would be that the assessment committee was a body having a corporate existence; whereas, in reality, it was only a portion of the Board of Guardians dealing with the funds of the Board. He proposed, therefore, to omit from the clause the words "assessment committee," in order to insert "Boards of Guardians."
  MR. C. P. VILLIERSsaid, he preferred the words which it was proposed to strike out.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  SIR WILLIAM JOLLIFFEmoved, at the end of the clause, to add,
  "Provided always, That no ratepayer shall have a right of appeal under the existing law to the special sessions or quarter sessions unless his objections to the valuation list shall have been made before the meeting or meetings of the assessment committee appointed under the Act to hear such objections."
  MR. C. P. VILLIERSsaid, he had no objection to the principle of the addition proposed by the right hon. Baronet; but he would prepare a clause which would carry out his object in a manner more consonant with the other portions of the Bill.
  SIR WILLIAM JOLLIFFEsaid, he would withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clause 2 agreed to.
  Clause 3 (Provision for Costs of Committee on Appeals).
  MR. DODSONmoved to leave out "committee," and insert "Board of Guardians." The object of his Amendment was to make what he understood to be the object of the clause more clear—namely, that the costs of respondents in appeals should be paid out of the common fund of the union.
  MR. C. P. VILLIERSagreed to the Amendment.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 4 to 7 agreed to.
  MR. JOHN PEELmoved to insert new clause after Clause 5 (Provision for new maps, plans, and books of reference).
  MR. NEWDEGATEsupported the clause.
  MR. C. P. VILLIERSsaid, he would agree to the clause if the words "or without" the valuation were omitted.
  MR. JOHN PEELobjected to the omission of the words, because he wanted to have the maps without a new survey or valuation. Why should they go to the expense of a new survey and valuation without any necessity for incurring it?
  SIR WILLIAM JOLLIFFEhoped the right hon. Gentleman would carefully consider the clause and the expense which it would throw upon the parishes.
  LORD HARRY VANEconcurred with the right hon. Baronet in thinking that the right hon. Gentleman ought not readily to assent to the clause.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, that if the House would insist upon a map and a valuation, great expense must be incurred. But if a map were permitted, the guardians themselves would make the valuation, and no correct valuation could be made until a map was provided.
  MR. C. P. VILLIERSsaid, that if the hon. Gentleman (Mr. John Peel) would withdraw the clause, he would himself
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  bring up another one on the bringing up of the Report.
  Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. WENTWORTH BEAUMONT, for Mr. H. Fenwick, who had given notice of new clauses (Abolishing deductions from rental in ascertaining value), (Deduction where rate of an exhaustible nature), (Provision in cases of small tenements rated instead of occupiers), (Rates may be amended in certain cases), moved the first of these clauses.
  MR. C. P. VILLIERSopposed the clause, but promised that he would consider the subjects referred to in the other Amendments before next Session.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, he was rejoiced that the right hon. Gentleman was about to consider the gross injustice of assessing the royalty of mines as income.
  MR. LIDDELLwas anxious to know whether the right hon. Gentleman approved the principle of the second clause of which notice had been given by the hon. Member for Sunderland (Mr. Fenwick)—that wherever the rateable hereditaments were of an exhaustible nature a deduction should be made from the rateable value sufficient to reproduce the capital value of the exhaustible portion at the termination of the estimated period of exhaustion.
  MR. C. P. VILLIERSsaid, that he had not pledged himself to that principle, but the whole subject of deduction and exemption should receive his attentive consideration, with a view to legislation next Session.
  MR. WENTWORTH BEAUMONTsaid, he would withdraw the clause.
  Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. HOWEScalled attention to a doubt which had lately arisen, whether magistrates individually interested as ratepayers were entitled to sit and hear appeals.
  MR. C. P. VILLIERSsaid, it was not very clear how existing Acts affected magistrates in the ease referred to. He had, therefore, determined to frame a clause removing all doubt on the subject.
  Remaining clauses agreed to.
  House resumed.
  Bill reported; as amended, to be considered on Monday next.

HIGHWAYS ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

  LEAVE FIRST READING.
  SIR GEORGE GREYmoved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Act for the

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  better management of highways in England. The present Bill was intended to amend in some respects the Bill passed a short time since, which, on the whole, had operated most satisfactorily. A Return lately presented to the House showed that the Act had been brought into operation in thirty-three or thirty-four counties, and in the great majority of cases throughout the entire extent of those counties, though in some it had only been adopted in part. But, although the Bill generally worked well, numerous suggestions of a practical character had been received from persons concerned in working the Act, and the present Bill was intended to give effect to the more important of those suggestions, avoiding any which were likely to excite prolonged discussion. There were certain cases in which the Act at present was not applicable to the formation of highway districts, and others in which the mode of defraying the expenses of highway boards required amendment. In many instances, also, the highway and Poor Law districts were not conterminous, and matters relating to the audit were capable of improvement. The Bill would also confer powers for appointing additional surveyors. It was now in print, and would be delivered immediately to hon. Members. He proposed to fix an early day for the second reading, after which, in accordance with the wishes of hon. Gentlemen, he should move that it be referred to a Select Committee.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill to amend the Act for the better management of Highways in England, ordered to be brought in by Sir GEORGE GREY and Mr. BARING.
  Bill presented, and read 1°. [Bill 113]
  House adjourned at Six o'clock.