Commons Sitting of 21 April 1864

MINUTES.
— NEW MEMER SWORN — Hugh Culling Eardley Childers, esquire, for Pontefract.
SELECT COMMITTEE—On Seat of Under Secretary of State nominated (see p. 1481); on Bankruptcy Act nominated (sea p. 1482).
SUPPLY — considered in Committee — Committee —R.P.
WAYS AND MEANS—considered in Committee.
PUBLIC BILLS—Ordered—County Bridges *.
First Reading—County Bridges * [Bill 77].
Second Reading—Charitable Assurances Enrolments (Lords) * [Bill 72].
Select Committee—On Government Annuities [Bill 11] nominated (see p. 1473); on Judgments Law Amendment * [Bill 72] nominated (see p. 1482).
Committee — Court of Justiciary (Scotland) * [Bill 31]; Fish Teinds (Scotland) * [Bill 45]; Summary Procedure (Scotland) * [Bill 32]; Bridges (Ireland) * [Bill 70] [No Report].
Report—Court of Justiciary (Scotland) * [Bill 31]; Fish Teinds (Scotland) * [Bill 45]; Summary Procedure (Scotland) * [Bill 76], and re-committed.
Third Rending— High Court at Bombay * [Bill 67].

NEW LAW COURTS.—QUESTION.
MR. SELWYNsaid, he would beg to: ask the First Commissioner of Works, Whether Her Majesty's Government intend to accept the offer made by the Society of Lincoln's Inn in 1859, and since repeated—namely, either to give the ground necessary for the erection of Courts for the Vice Chancellors, or to build such Courts at the expense of the Society upon receiving, for a term of years, £4 per cent per annum on the actual outlay on the buildings from the Suitors' Fund, but without any charge upon or guarantee from the National Exchequer?
SIR FITZROY KELLYsaid, he wished to ask whether, in case the Government contemplate any measure such as his lion, and learned Friend had alluded to, it was part of the scheme they had in view that one large building should comprise all the Law Courts?
MR. COWPERsaid, in reply, that the proposal made in 1859 for erecting Vice Chancellors' Courts within the precincts of Lincoln's Inn was more for the benefit of the Inn than that of the public, as it would no doubt have enhanced the value of chambers there. It would not be so much for the advantage of suitors at large or the entire legal profession as the scheme proposed by the Commissioners for the concentration of all the Courts of Law and Equity and their offices in one building. It was, he believed, on this ground that the offer was refused by Lord Derby's Government at the time it was made, and it was on the same ground that the present Government could not avail themselves of the proposal of the Society of Lincoln's Inn. The scheme now in the contemplation of the Government had for its main feature, in

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accordance with the recommendation of the Commissioners, the bringing together of all the Courts and their offices under one roof, or in immediate contiguity to each other.
SIR FITZROY KELLYsaid, he wished to know when the scheme would be brought; forward?
MR. COWPERsaid, he believed it would be brought forward soon.

WEST INDIA MAILS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. CAVEsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether the West India Colonies have been called upon by the Treasury to contribute the sum of £37,554 for the present year towards the subsidy to the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company; and, if so, whether the consent of those Colonies had been previously obtained; and, whether he will lay upon the table of the House the copy of a letter from himself to Sir Frederick Rogers, together with the copy of a letter from the Postmaster General enclosed therein, on the subject?
  MR. PEEL, in reply, said, the Home Government two years ago had given notice to the Governments of the West India Colonies that from the present year, when the new contract would commence, they would apply to those Colonies that principle of half contribution for the cost of the Mail Service which was already in operation in respect to the Australian and other Colonies. The loss upon the West India Mail Service had been much reduced under the new contract, but it still amounted to a considerable sum — about £115,000. They had ascertained how much of that sum was due to the West India part of the service, and how much to the Mexico and Pacific part. This country would bear the whole loss on the Mexico and Pacific branch, but as regarded the West India branch, it was thought fair that the West India Colonies should bear a share of the loss upon it. Of course, it rested with those Colonies entirely whether they would give or withhold their consent to the arrangement, but that consent was necessary to their participating in the benefits of that service.

PAROCHIAL ASSESSMENT COMMITTEES.—QUESTION,
MR. SUTTON WESTERNsaid, he would beg to ask the President of the Poor
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Law Board, Whether any steps have been taken to enable Parochial Assessment Committees to appear by Counsel or otherwise for the purpose of defending their decisions before Petty or Quarter Sessions, and to provide means for meeting the expenses attending such defence?
MR. C. P. VILLIERSsaid, in reply, that, as the Law now stood, if there was an Appeal against the valuation of a parish by the Assessment Committee, the Guardians could appear as respondents to that Appeal, and charge their costs, in case of failure, on the common fund; but it appeared that if the overseers made a rate upon the valuation so made by the Assessment Committee, and there was an Appeal against the rate, there was no provision for either the Committee or the Guardians to appear in defence of their valuation. This was considered a serious defect in the Act, and many representations of the injustice which this occasioned had reached the Poor Law Board. He had, therefore, determined to introduce a Bill to amend the Act in that respect, and he would do so in time for it to become law before the July Sessions.
MR. ALDERMAN SALOMONSsaid, he would beg to ask the President of the Poor Law Board if he intends to propose any Amendment of the Union Assessment Act during the present Session, and particularly if he intends so to alter that Act as to make it compulsory on parties to appeal to the Assessment Committee before appealing to the Justices in Quarter Sessions?
MR. C. P. VILLIERSsaid, he had already stated that he would introduce an Amendment in the Union Assessment Act. He thought the provision which his hon. Friend suggested was very useful, and would take care that it was not overlooked in the Bill.

DEPARTURE OF GENERAL GARIBALDI.

  QUESTION.
  MR. KINNA1RD: Sir, a rumour has been prevalent within the last few days, and it has also appeared in the public press, that a Member of Her Majesty's Government and a Cabinet Minister has been instrumental in inducing the departure of General Garibaldi in deference to the French Government. In order to avert any misunderstanding on the subject, I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether there in any truth in that rumour?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, as far as I am concerned, I am obliged to my hon. Friend for putting this Question to me, because, undoubtedly, mysterious statements have appeared in the public journals. The subject is one in which the people of England take a very lively interest, and I do not think there is anything which they so much dislike as the appearance of mystery in anything when public matters and public men are concerned. With the permission of the House, therefore, I will shortly state my share in the proceeding which has given rise to these incorrect and even absurd rumours. Sir, on Sunday last, the Duke of Sutherland communicated to me that he and other friends of General Garibaldi were beginning to entertain considerable apprehensions in regard to the state of his health, and that a very eminent medical man, indeed one of the first names in the profession, who had visited him, Mr. Ferguson—
  MR. SCULLY: Sir, I rise to order. I am kept very strictly to the Question in this House, and am not allowed to make the slightest statement of any sort that is the least irrelevant; and I say that in answering questions the right hon. Gentleman ought not to make use of irrelevant statements.
  MR. SPEAKER: A Question having been addressed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, there is nothing at all out of order in his replying to it.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: The Duke stated to me that General Garibaldi's friends were beginning to entertain very serious apprehensions as to the effect of his protracted labours and his meditated excursion to the provinces on his health, and he requested me to come to Stafford House about nine o'clock in the evening for the purpose of considering whether any advice should be tendered to the General on the subject. I considered, certainly, that the Duke of Sutherland, by the course which he had pursued in regard to General Garibaldi, had not only been exercising a princely hospitality, but really had been rendering a great public service; and I felt it to be my duty—I felt that it became me—if he thought it advisable to consult me in that matter, to comply with his wish. I went to Stafford House accordingly, and I found there that considerable apprehension prevailed on the subject; that General Garibaldi had already accepted, conditionally,
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  invitations to visit about thirty towns in the country; that the list was one which was rapidly growing from day to day; and that there was an explicit declaration of Mr. Fergusson to the effect, that it was quite impossible that the General's strength could stand the exhaustion incident to these continual public demonstrations— demonstrations which are the more fatiguing in proportion as they are ardent and affectionate. Well, the noble Duke, Lord Shaftesbury, Colonel Peard, General Eber, and one or two other friends of General Garibaldi, consulted together upon this matter, and we all came to the conclusion that it was our duty to advise General Garibaldi to contract very greatly the circle of his provincial excursions, and not to contract it only but likewise to fix it absolutely before leaving London, in order that it might not be capable of being afterwards extended and enlarged by the new applications which were coming in. That was made known to General Garibaldi in the first instance by two of his friends; and afterwards I was requested and did undertake to tell the General what my opinion was on the subject. I ventured to represent to him—what most of us on an inferior scale might give some opinion upon—that it was scarcely possible he could go through such labours without great injury to his health, and I also ventured to add that the people of England held that to be an object of great value, not only to his own country but to the world. I represented it as his duty to consider what would be the effect on his health of the engagements which he had made or appeared to have made, and what he might be called on to make in addition to those already contracted. I ventured also to say that there was some risk lest the magnificent national reception which had been given to him in the great metropolis of this country, and which really formed an historical event, should not gain, but even lose, some of its real dignity from being frequently repeated elsewhere. That was the whole substance of my communication to General Garibaldi, the upshot of it being a very strong and urgent representation to the effect, that we prayed him to consider whether he ought not to contract greatly the circle of his tour, and fix it absolutely before leaving London. General Garibaldi heard me with great patience, and then proceeded to state that, in his opinion, there was great force in what I had stated, but that there would

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  be very great difficulty in drawing distinctions between the wish of one town and the wish of another, and that he considered the purpose of his journey was already at an end. He said he had come to England, not with the view of obtaining honours to himself, which the people in any town might be disposed to pay, but with a view to render his thanks and acknowledgments to the Government and people of England for what he considered they had done for his country. He said that it appeared to him that, in visiting London, which is the metropolis, he visited the entire nation, and consequently, as he had so visited the nation, the purpose of his visit being accomplished, he felt himself at perfect liberty to withdraw the promises he had given conditionally; and he thought the best plan would be to decline visiting the provinces at the present moment. He stated also that he hoped at a future time he should be able to come back to England and indulge the wishes of his old friends by seeing them in a less formal manner than it was now possible for him to effect that object. That was the substance of the conversation which passed. I need hardly say that I have omitted nothing whatever that is material to the point, and that only the very busy and active imaginations of people having nothing to do, going from club to club inquiring for some new thing, could have given rise to the belief that political motives had been imported into this transaction. Perhaps it is hardly material to the question, but it was within my knowledge even at the time of the conversation, both through an official and unofficial channel, that so far from there being any truth in the ridiculous story of umbrage being taken on the other side of the water at the reception of General Garibaldi, the feelings of the Emperor of the French upon that point were entirely such as my noble Friend at the head of the Government described the other night. A little truth is often the means of introducing a great deal of error, and the accidental circumstance of my having been called upon, whether with reason or without reason, to advise in the matter of General Garibaldi's health, has been made the occasion of stories which are entirely destitute of the slightest shadow of foundation.
  SIR HARRY VERNEY: May I be allowed to say one word? ["Order!"]
  MR. SCULLYwished to put a question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer relative to the reply he had just given to the hon.
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  Member for Perth—whether, in the course of the conversation he had with General Garibaldi, he stated to him that the feeling of the metropolis of England represented the feeling of the people of Ireland on this subject; and did he recommend him not to go to Ireland?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: In the conversation referred to, I made no statement whatever with respect to the population of Ireland; and with respect to the population of England, I left it to General Garibaldi to judge of their feelings by what he saw.

LISBURN ELECTION.

  SELECT COMMITTEE MOVED FOR.
  Petitions of Russell Kennedy, and Bryson Pelan, and Jonathan Joseph Richardson, considered.
  MR. BUTTwho had given notice, on consideration of the Petitions of R. Kennedy and B. Pelan, and J. J. Richardson, to move, That the Select Committee on the Lisburn Election Petitions do re-assemble and report upon the matter referred to them by the House, said, whatever opinion might be entertained with reference to the course the House ought to take in this matter, he thought everybody would admit that it was a question of great importance as affecting the privileges of that House and the practice of Election Committees. The Petitioner, Mr. Richardson, was formerly a Member of that House. He was a candidate at the last election for Lisburn, and had presented a petition against the return. He had attended the Committee at a very great expense; and he now complained that, after eleven days had been spent in the inquiry, he was in a worse position than when the inquiry commenced. He considered that having presented a Petition he had a right to have it heard and decided, and that he could not be deprived of that right except through some fault of his own, or some defect in the rules, regulations, and proceedings of that House. He had complied with every rule and regulation, and he asked the House to find some menus of remedying the injustice he had suffered. The hon. and learned Gentlemen then stated the facts connected with the lapse of the Committee by the illness and absence of Mr. Stirling, the Act of Parliament in relation to Election Committees not having provided for the case which actually occurred. The provisions were not, as had been asserted, new.

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  They were contained in the Grenville Act of 1779. At that time the House sat at nine o'clock in the morning, and the Committees sat in the evening, so that the meetings of (lie Committees were subsequent to the sittings of the House. The clause, which had a meaning in 1770, had been copied into every subsequent Act, although the altered circumstances of the case, the meetings of the Committees now preceding instead of following the sittings of the House, rendered it utterly inapplicable. In the present case the Committee acted in the spirit, though not in the letter of the statute, by adjourning over the day when they could have taken the Orders of the House. All that the Committee had since decided was that they had lapsed their powers by adjourning to the wrong day. Every one would admit that there had been a grievous failure of justice. He had no right to assume what would have been the result of the deliberations of the Committee; but the House was in this position, that it contained a Member whose seat was impeached for bribery, and, unless the House devised a remedy, the electors of Lisburn might say that they were misrepresented in that House. And was this the result of all our detailed legislation on the subject? He believed that justice might still be done. In 1848, some difficulty arose relative to proceedings connected with an election petition; and an Act of Parliament, introduced by the right hon. Member for Cambridge University, was passed to provide a remedy for the inadvertence. Another course might be pursued. The Acts of Parliament regulating election petitions had nothing to do with the limitation as to time. This depended entirely on the Sessional Order of the House, and by special direction the Order might be suspended, and a new mode of proceeding directed by the House. There were two precedents of this on the books; one in 1831, when such a proceeding was resorted to, to provide a remedy for a delay in presenting a petition caused by a great storm of snow. It had frequently been said that the jurisdiction of Election Committees was entirely derived from statute. This he denied. By the ancient law of Parliament the House had a right to decide on the mode of trying election petitions. In olden time, the practice had been to refer them for trial before Committees; after this the number of petitions became so great that this mode of proceeding was abandoned,
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  and the petitions were tried by Speaker Onslow at the bar of the House. It was a well known principle of law that power could not be taken away, except by express words of legislation. It followed, then, that wherever Acts of Parliament did not regulate the proceedings of Election Committees the House had power to supply the deficiency. The House had power to make orders for anything not provided for by the statute. Had the Lisburn Election Committee chosen to go on the next day their proceedings could not have been set aside, as was shown in the St. Alban's case, where Edwards was even committed to prison on proceedings subsequent to an irregular adjournment. The circumstances of the earlier sittings of the St. Alban's Committee were precisely similar in this— that neither the petitioner nor the sitting Member offered any objection to the constitution of the Committee after its adjournment; and though, on the presentation of the Report, the objection was urged by a Member of the House, the Report was nevertheless received, and an Act of Parliament was passed taking away the franchise of the borough. The words of the Act were, "The Committee shall try." Was, then, the express purpose of the Act to be set aside merely because the Committee did not sit de die in diem? Was the Act most obeyed by calling on the Committee to re-assemble, or by paying pharisaical attention to minute matters? The question was not to be determined by passion or party feeling ["Move."]
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the matters contained in the Petition of Jonathan Joseph Richardson, which was presented on the 18th day of this instant April, and to report their opinion thereon."—(Mr. Butt.)
  MR. HUNTsaid, that the House had been more occupied that evening with the inhabitants of Caprera than with the events of the Lisburn Election Petition, and therefore it had been quite impossible for him. under the circumstances of the evening, (the hon. Member alluded to the presence of General Garibaldi in the seats under the gallery of the House,) to follow the whole of the arguments of the hon. and learned Gentleman who had just sat down; and, therefore, in the remarks which he was about to make, he had to beg the pardon of the House if he neglected to reply to all the learned Member's arguments. He wished to call the attention of the House to what occurred alter the recess. A

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  debate arose, and the Secretary for the Home Department proposed an adjournment to the following day. Not one lawyer attempted to take exception to the position which he (Mr. Hunt) had laid down, that the Committee were dead as a Committee, and had no power to proceed further. The Attorney General recommended the House to give no advice, but to leave the Committee to flounder in the mud as they liked, and to get out of it in the best way they could. On the following day the four Gentlemen met again, and came to a determination that they were no longer legally able to proceed. These Gentlemen sat as a kind of coroner's inquest on themselves, and, no doubt, struggled hard to bring in an open verdict; but the force of circumstances and the legal advice which they received compelled them to return a verdict of felo de se. The hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Butt) asked the House to afford the petitioners some redress; but he had omitted to state one important fact—namely, that it was upon the advice of the counsel for the petitioners that the Committee took the step which led to their dissolution. But for that advice the Committee would have adjourned until the 4th instead of the 5th. When the counsel for the petitioners had led them into this error they certainly had no claim upon the House for redress. The hon. and learned Gentleman seemed to be of opinion that the House had some jurisdiction in the matter of elections independently of the Act under which the proceedings took place. Now, he (Mr. Hunt) ventured to dispute that proposition, find contended that the House was tied down by the Act, and could not go a step beyond it. The second section enacted that every petition presented within the proper time should be deemed an election petition, and then went on to provide how it should be dealt with. It provided that the Committee should determine by a majority of votes, whether the sitting Member was duly elected, or what other person was duly elected; or whether it was avoid election, &c.; which determination should be final; and the House, on being informed thereof, was directed to order the Report of the Committee to be entered on the Journals, and the House gave directions for altering the return, or issuing a new writ, &c. All, therefore. that the House had to do was to carry the determination of the Committee into execution. The House, no doubt, had the
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  power to direct any four Members to report on any matter referred to them; but he would venture to say that if any Report was made by the four Gentlemen who sat on the Election Committee, such Report would not be within the terms of the Act, and would have no force or validity. The sitting Member might treat that Report as waste paper, and the House would have no jurisdiction in the matter, so far as to affect the seat. He did not see for what object a Select Committee could be appointed. If there was any probability of a Committee finding its way through this slough of despond, by all means let the hon. and learned Gentleman have it; but it would be much better for him to withdraw his Motion, and turn his attention to the improvement of the law respecting election matters, where it was very much needed.
  THE ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, he agreed in much that had fallen from the hon. Gentleman opposite, and was glad to find that his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Youghal did not ask the House to assent to the terms of the Motion as it originally stood, but was prepared to submit it to the House in a modified form. It would be a dangerous precedent if the House were to take upon itself the introduction, by its own authority, of any Amendment in the course of procedure under the Election Petitions Act. The Cheltenham case, which occurred in 1848, appeared to tell against the Motion of his hon. and learned Friend. In that case an error was discovered in the preparation of the usual recognizances; but it turned out that there, were seven or eight other cases in which similar errors had been committed, and, on petitions being presented by the sitting Members, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge moved the appointment of a Select Committee much in the form of that now proposed. That certainly was a precedent so far; but what was the hearing of their Report, and what was the practical result? The Committee reported that it might be desirable to relieve the petitioners by legislation. The error in the Cheltenham case had occurred in seven or eight cases; and it was corrected, by legislation, before the inquiry, in any of these cases, had begun; but in the present case only one individual was concerned; the inquiry also was at an end; and if the Motion before the House were agreed to, it would be impossible to avoid the suspicion of being actu-

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  ated by party or political motives, and of a desire to legislate against one single individual. Under these circumstances, the Government could not undertake the responsibility of advising the House to legislate on this particular case, or to enter upon an inquiry with a view to such legislation. There was another course which might have been worthy of the consideration of the House, and that was whether advantage might not be taken of the Motion to appoint a Committee to consider the expediency of making provision in future for errors in point of form or irregularity of proceeding on the part of Election Committees. But there was a Bill now before the House for the amendment of the law relating to Elections, introduced by the hon. Member for Northamptonshire (Mr. Hunt); and, perhaps, it might be desirable to refer both these matters to a Committee. Under all the circumstances, he did not think it would be advisable to agree to the appointment of the Committee proposed by his hon. and learned Friend.
  MR. BUTTsaid, he would withdraw his Motion after the statement of the Attorney General.
  Question put, and negatived.

WAYS AND MEANS.
Order for Committee read.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, notices having been given of Motions on the subject of Fire Insurance duty, I wish to make a short statement before you leave the chair; because, in point of fact, one of these Notices relates not so much to Fire Insurance as to the general principles on which the financial statement should be submitted and disposed of by the House. There are two Motions which are to be submitted to the House—one by the hon. Baronet the Member for Evesham (Sir Henry Willoughby), which, as it stands on the paper, does not, I believe, disclose the nature of his object; but he has teen good enough to explain his object to me, and I will explain it to the House, in order to draw the distinction between the Motion of the hon. Baronet and that of which notice has been given by the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. H. B. Sheridan). As I understand, the hon. Member for Evesham does not propose to interfere with the financial arrangements of the Government; but he questions the judgment and discretion of the manner in which the Government, being
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only able to give a limited relief in respect of duty paid on Fire Insurances, give that relief by reducing the duty paid by stock in trade instead of that paid by property. We propose to give the relief to stock in trade; the hon. Baronet proposes to give it to houses, buildings, and furniture. He therefore raises a simple question. He will argue that my proposal is bad. I will take the liberty of submitting that his is bad also; but whenever it is before the Committee of Ways and Means, the Committee will be able to dispose of it without disturbing any financial principle, or placing the Government in the position of not being able to defer to the wishes of the Committee in whichever direction that wish may be. But the hon. Member for Dudley gives notice of a Motion of a different character. He says that the reduction of the Fire Duty in the manner proposed by me is not the mode of reduction contemplated by the Resolution of the House passed last Session on this subject, and that a uniform reduction of 1s. per cent on all descriptions of property liable to the said duty would be more acceptable to the country. I believe that there is some difficulty attaching to that Resolution in the pointed manner in which it alludes to a Resolution to be proposed in Ways and Means; but that is immaterial, because it can be cured; but the object of the hon. Gentleman is to pledge the House before going into Committee to make a general reduction on both property and stock in trade, and he fixes that reduction at 1s. per cent. Now, with respect to the Motion of the hon. Gentleman I wish to remind the House of our financial position; because they will do me the justice to recollect that in the midst of a long statement—or rather near the close of a long statement—when I was naturally unwilling to burden the House with long details, I, notwithstanding, stated that the proposal which we made in respect of Fire Insurance, limited as it was, was not one which we made so much on our own judgment in regard to what should be done, as out of our desire to go to the extreme of our limits, to meet a wish which we believed to prevail extensively in the House. That is material for the House to recollect, because it is the last feather that breaks the back of the horse or the camel, and the Government, which goes to the extreme of what it can in financial reduction, is not in a position to go quite as far as is proposed in this instance. Now, I stated to

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the House that we presented an estimate of revenue and expenditure which, without making any reductions, showed a surplus of £2,570,000; but, with respect to that surplus, it is right I should remind the House that half a million of our revenue is not dependent on resources within our reach, but, in fact, on a portion of the taxation of China, and is liable to be affected by any incidents tending to disturbance in that empire. I believe that if it is in the power of China she will pay, and I believe it is probable that it will be in her power; but that portion of our revenue must be regarded as an element of weakness in the Estimate for the year. It will be recollected, also, that I said it might be argued that we ought to provide in the Estimates of the current year for the second portion of the payment in redemption of the Scheldt dues. The sum that would be required for the purpose is £176,000. The way we propose to proceed with our surplus of £2,570,000 was this:—We began with £1,330,000 for the reduction in the Sugar Duties: and then came £800,000 for reduction in the Income Tax; making a sum of £2,130,000, and leaving still a surplus of £440,000. Against that surplus of £440,000, as I stated before, it is quite arguable that the second portion of the Scheldt redemption money should be charged; and the amount remaining of the surplus was not such as we considered it unreasonable to ask the House to leave in our hands, because it was not unlikely that between the month of April and the close of the Session fresh demands of one kind or another might be made on the public purse. And even since the 7th of April, when I made the financial statement, a new demand has arisen-—though I cannot state the amount—to affect the limited balance as I then stated it to the House. Still, with this surplus of £440,000 as we felt that we might be justified in carrying over the Scheldt redemption money to a future year in case of need, we did attempt to meet the wishes of the House by offering them a reduction of the Fire Insurance duty, as regards property limited in amount, but, as we thought, sufficient, considering all the circumstances of the case. That reduction involves a loss to the revenue of £192,000, which, with the small loss by the reduction of the licence duty for the sale of tea, reduces our surplus to £238,000; and, as I have observed, that has been reduced since by a new demand on the Government, of a
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kind which it was not open to us to reject. Without taking into account the £176,000 which a rigorous financier might argue we ought not to postpone for a future year, the upshot of all this is, that the Government is not in a position to go further and dispose of more revenue, having reduced the surplus to the minimum amount of the sum I stated on a former evening, which sum has sunk since then. Under these circumstances, it is proposed, in lieu of a reduction of 1s. 6d. upon stock in trade, that we should make a less effective; reduction—or, in other words, a reduction; less likely to produce reproductive action —a reduction, namely, of 1s. upon all descriptions of property insured against fire. I know there is an opinion that house property and furniture would be quite as likely to become the subjects of increased insurance, in the event of a reduction of duty, as stock in trade, or even more so. I dispute that, I think it contrary to experience; but, at any rate, it will hardly be alleged that a reduction of 1s. upon all kinds of property would produce as large a percentage increase as a reduction of 1s. 6d. upon stock in trade alone. It is quite idle to reduce a duty of this sort by small driblets. On the first night of the discussion it was proposed to make a reduction of 6d. over all. If the House wishes to make a distinct present of so much money to those who insure, without any view to extension of insurance, I cannot conceive a better scheme for that purpose than spreading a sixpenny reduction over the whole mass of property now insured against fire. I am bound to say that I have always agreed with the hon. Member for Dudley, that if there is to be a reduction at all it ought to be a large one; and I am bound, in justice to the hon. Member, to say that, although he now proposes a reduction of 1s. the reduction which he formerly proposed—not last year but previously—as a proper terminus to arrive at was a reduction from 3s. to 1s. In that opinion he was right. I wish I could have proposed such a reduction I upon stock in trade. It was not in my power to do so with a due regard to financial considerations; but a reduction of one half of the duty is the very smallest which I would recommend to the House. It is not my intention to go into the details of the Fire Insurance question. I admit it may fairly be said that the rate of premium upon property is much lower than that upon stock in trade, and that consequently the rate

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of duty in proportion to the premium is much higher. In that sense and to that degree the hon. Member for Evesham (Sir H. Willoughby) may argue rightly enough that we might expect recovery upon property; but against that I place, what is of more consequence, the slackness of recovery upon property, and the rapidity of recovery upon stock in trade. But that is not the point. I have spoken of the reproductive element, and I will explain to the House how we stand. The effect of a reduction of 1s. upon all kinds of property would be about the following: — I take the revenue from the Fire Insurance duty at £1,700,000. One shilling off the 3s. amounts to £566,000. I allow 6 percent for recovery against a reduction of 1s., as I should be disposed to allow 10 per cent against a reduction of 1s. 6d., and 15 per cent against a reduction of 2s. A recovery of 6 per cent upon a reduction of 1s. would mitigate the loss by £34,000, leaving a loss of £532,000. That would be the real amount of revenue surrendered; but as the reduction only takes effect for nine months out of the twelve of the present year, the effect would be a total loss during the financial year of something over £400,000. Now, inasmuch as I am not able at present, even without taking any account of the Scheldt dues, to place my surplus at more than £200,000, the addition to the £192,000 of loss which I anticipate from the reduction of duty upon stock in trade of a sum exceeding £200,000 absolutely sweeps away the whole of that surplus and something more, and makes it entirely impossible for the Government to persevere with the proposals they have submitted to the House. If the House thinks it is better to leave the question alone than merely to deal with stock in trade, that is matter for argument. As Chancellor of the Exchequer, although I might regret that a boon should be withheld, I should have consolation in the greater security of my position. If the House thinks it is wiser and fairer to reduce upon property than to reduce upon stock in trade, I shall argue against the proposition; though I admit that if you do not extend the area of your reduction, you do not break in on the elementary principles of finance. But it is impossible for us, with any regard to our own duty, after the course we have taken and the manner in which we have stretched our proposals, with a view to meet the presumed wishes of the House, entirely to sweep away that most moderate — that
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even less than moderate—surplus, which experience, propriety, and almost decency require us to preserve. There may be cases in which the Government may commence the financial year without a surplus. Supposing, for example, you find yourselves, as we found ourselves at the beginning of the financial year 1862–3, with the estimated produce of the taxes exactly balancing the estimated charge of the country. At that period, I stated to the House, on the part of the Government, and the House concurred in the view, that it would not be wise to impose a tax for the purpose of creating a surplus; but that was with special reference, not only to the circumstance that if we were to have a surplus it must be got by means of a new tax—which is a very different thing from parting with an old one—but likewise to the fact that the menacing state of Lancashire rendered it impossible to form an estimate of what the wants of the country might be, and that, therefore, it would be better to wait to obtain the benefit of experience, and to do, when the proper time arrived, what experience might seem to suggest. But I hope the House will not ask us, under existing circumstances, to adopt a proposal which I believe to be unexampled in the history of Parliament— namely, when the Government have proposed a provision for the services of the year extremely moderate in its character —perhaps too moderate—perhaps open to criticism on that score, but at any rate, not extensive as regards the amount of funds which they ask the House to leave in their hands — that, with the view of meeting, not an urgent or immediate, but a general public purpose connected with the reduction and improvement of a particular tax, the whole of the surplus should be swept away and the Exchequer left to provide for new public demands without any possible means of making such provision, At the time when the Government determined upon their financial proposals, they entertained a hope that those proposals would be substantially acceptable to the House. It was with a view to make them acceptable that they extended them in the direction I have named by including the element of Fire Insurance. They have been so far acceptable that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bucks has claimed their authorship. I am not going into any dispute about that. We are too well satisfied with being able to obtain assent and approval, independently of distinctions of party, in matters in which

1437
all have a common interest, to encumber the discussion or retard the progress of our measures with any question as to who is entitled to the credit of the parentage. But I venture respectfully to put it to the House that we have framed our entire plan for the year in a spirit of concession—in a spirit of respect to the wishes of the House, even where they went beyond our own views, so far as considerations of imperative public policy would permit us to proceed in that direction; and I rely upon the fairness and kindness of the House not to depart from its old well-understood rules in financial proceedings, by taking out of the hands of the executive Government the whole remainder, and something more, of that very modest sum which they ask the House to leave with them in order to meet the casual exigencies of the year. Do not let the House be misled into exaggerated anticipations concerning the revenue of the coining year, from the fact that the revenue last year exhibited a large surplus over the estimate formed at the commencement of the year. The correspondence of estimates of revenue with their results is a matter beyond the control of any Parliament or of any Government. If it be true that last year the revenue yielded £2,000,000 more than the estimate made at the beginning of the year, it is also true that in 1860–1 the revenue yielded as nearly as possible £2,000,000 less. Perhaps you may say that is owing to some difference in the principles upon which the Estimates are made. There is no such difference at all. It is owing to the circumstances of the trade and industry of the country; it is owing, above all, to that great circumstance of a good or bad harvest, which at once powerfully acts upon the receipt of revenue. What does a good harvest mean? When we have a good harvest it means, first of all, that £20,000,000, £30,000,000, or £40,000,000 of agricultural wealth are put into the hands of agricultural producers which in the case of a bad harvest would not have been there. It means, in the second place, that moderate prices rule throughout the country for all the articles of first necessity, and that the money saved upon those articles is spent, in great part, upon duty-paid commodities. That was the reason why the revenue of last year was so good, and the revenue of the last part of the year better than the revenue of the first part. At the commencement of the year we
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were not enjoying the benefits of a very good harvest, whereas, for the last few months of the year, we had been enjoying those benefits in full. But it is impossible to guarantee these Estimates of revenue. I venture to say, comparing the estimates of 1860–1 with the present Estimates, that those for 1860–1 were simply the Estimates of the official advisers of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, adopted without minute examination, and without the slightest change. Now, I do not scruple to say that in the present year, partly with regard to the due position of the Government, and partly from a desire to find the funds with which to meet the wishes of the House, I did make a minute examination of the Estimates both of the Customs and the Board of Inland Revenue, in concert with the able gentlemen at the head of those departments, and we did make certain additions to them which, of course, swell the amount of the estimated surplus. If the House distrusts these Estimates, or thinks that there arc funds available for the remission of taxes which the Finance Minister is unduly holding back, then the House has it in its power to appoint a Committee to consider the Estimates, and say whether, in the opinion of competent judges, additions can or cannot be made to them. But in the absence of such an inquiry as that I must stand upon these Estimates, and I apprehend the House will stand upon them also. It is impossible to conceive of a practice more dangerous than for the House, upon mere vague general allegations, resting upon no distinct authority, that the country is going to be prosperous —as if we could foresee what the harvest will be at the end of August or in September—to say that we may proceed to remit taxes from sources on which, in the present state of affairs, we are not able safely to reckon. I am not now disputing so much the question of the Fire Insurance duty as pointing out that this is a proposal interfering with an elementary and cardinal principle of finance, which, as far as I know, is always respected by the House— namely, the principle that where the executive Government has on its own responsibility computed the provision required for the services of the year, with a very narrow margin and moderate surplus for unforeseen exigencies, that surplus should be accorded to them, it being impossible for them, without an entire violation of their duty, to acquiesce in the absorption of funds which, it is absolutely necessary

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to retain in order to meet the probable wants of the country. I beg, Sir, to move that you now leave the Chair.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."—(The Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
MR. H. B. SHERIDANsaid, he did not dispute the accuracy of many of the right hon. Gentleman's figures, but he differed considerably from his conclusions. He accepted the construction which the right hon. Gentleman had put upon his Resolution—namely, that, instead of a reduction of 1s. 6d. in the Fire Insurance duty on stock in trade, which the right hon. Gentleman proposed, there should be a uniform reduction of 1s. on all descriptions of property without any exception. Of course, farming stock, being now exempt, did not come within the range of his Resolution. He had consulted experienced practical men, and had received various communications from the country—among others one from the Chamber of Commerce of Birmingham, one of the most enlightened bodies of merchants in the kingdom—all pointing in the same direction as that indicated by his Motion; and they had the evidence of the Insurance Offices, that it would be impossible to carry out the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman without considerable expense, which would render the benefit little more, if more, than the proposed benefit which his proposed reduction of 1s. involved, and they would, he believed, themselves gratefully accept the alteration which he now suggested in that proposition. The Resolution he had to submit to the House did not involve an encroachment on the financial arrangements of the Budget. It did not take away the surplus which the right hon. Gentleman said he had in hand. As the right hon. Gentleman had stated, £1,700,000 was the revenue derived from the Fire Insurance duty. One third of that amount, as the right hon. Gentleman estimated, was obtained from stock in trade, or £566,000. The right hon. Gentleman proposed to remit one-half of that sum, or £283,000, by reducing the duty from 3s. to 1s. 6d. on stock in trade only. From that sum, however, the right hon. Gentleman deducted £70,000, being the amount of the fourth quarter, which he would not receive. That reduced the amount to £213,000. Then 10 per cent must be deducted for the increase anticipated by the
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right hon. Gentleman upon his reduction of the duty, or £21,000, which brought the loss down to £192,000. Turning next to the plan involved in his own Resolution, the figures would stand thus:—£1,700,000 was the amount of the revenue from the 3s. duty now levied; one-third of that was £566,000; and he proposed to reduce the 3s. duty by 1s., or one-third, on all descriptions of property. From the £566,000 they must deduct £142,000 for the fourth quarter. Thus they had £424,000, and not £500,000, as the amount represented by the demand which his Resolution made. How was that to be provided? First, there was the natural increase of the duty, £50,000. Then there was the further increase of 10 per cent, which the right hon. Gentleman anticipated from the reduced tax. Proceeding on the same principle of calculation, he argued that his plan of reduction would be followed by an increase of 10 per cent of the £424,000. That 10 per cent made £42,000, and £50,000 represented the natural increase of the duty. Then the right hon. Gentleman had not taken into his calculation the discount allowed to the Insurance Offices for the collection of the revenue, amounting to £21,000. That gave £330,000, or nearly that sum, to meet the £424,000. Then there were the unappropriated balances of the Exchequer, which, after the deductions to which the right hon. Gentleman had referred, still left £238,000. Thus nearly £100,000 would be the amount remaining in hand, should the House be pleased to adopt his proposal instead of that of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. But the right hon. Gentleman said they had no right to reckon on an increasing revenue in the ensuing year, although he had estimated it at something like half a million less than it was last year. Now, the House could not shut its eyes to the fact that last year every branch of the revenue increased, while nearly every branch of the expenditure diminished; and there was now a large surplus with which the right hon. Gentleman had dealt ably in every way except in respect to Fire Insurance. However, he would not depend on that argument, but on the argument that the right hon. Gentleman had enough for the purpose of satisfying the object of his Motion. But, even if the right hon. Gentleman had not enough, that was not his fault or the fault of the House. By two Resolutions passed in succeeding years, the House had called on the right hon. Gentleman to make pro-

1441
vision for the reduction of the duty. Now, his Resolution would not take the whole even of the unappropriated balance in the hands of the right hon. Gentleman, and, therefore, no embarrassment could ensue from its adoption. It was enough for him to show that there was sufficient money to provide for that uniform reduction of this duty which the country required, and which the House had declared should be carried out. The House leaned on the anticipated surplus and the probable prosperity of the country for any wants that might arise, But to say that this balance should not be applied as the House had said it ought to be applied, would be using the House in a manner he should not have anticipated. The right hon. Gentleman had based his calculations on the assumption that two-thirds of this duty were derived from the insurance of property and one-third from stock in trade. The right hon. Gentleman admitted that this was conjecture, and it must be so—he did not know where he could possibly get figures to enable him to arrive at such a calculation. It was true, he might have obtained information from Insurance Offices, but he had not said that he had so obtained it, and he was not aware that Insurance Offices could give him such information. They had no index or handy-book which would supply it. The right hon. Gentleman had not told the House that, from the experience of the whole of the Insurance Offices, he had been enabled to arrive at an equitable average. He could not help reminding the right hon. Gentleman that, in the strongest manner, he had himself condemned the use of figures that could not be substantiated. What, then, was the basis of his argument? Fire Offices could not supply the figures, for another good reason. They had been holding meetings, and expressing the difficulties they had in understanding the words "stock in trade." If the right hon. Gentleman had not heard of these meetings, he probably would. If he had not received a communication from the Secretary of the "Sun," he no doubt would. Out of a million and a half of policies issued, one-third might possibly contain items only of stock in trade; but that was a very different result from saying that one-third of this duty was received on stock in trade. If the traders in insurance were not themselves agreed as to what the term "stock in trade" might affect or include, how could they
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possibly give the Chancellor of the Exchequer the calculations on which he rested? But these were not the only parties who had difficulty in understanding the meaning of "stock in trade." He had received, and no doubt others had received, many communications on this subject. Insurance Offices were in great perplexity, and the right hon. Gentleman would have many questions put to him—whether, for instance, the handsome plate-glass fronts, fittings, and ornamental work of shops, were utensils or stock in trade; whether the horses and vans employed by Pickford were stock in trade, or utensils of trade. Houses built for the purpose of selling were stock in trade—would they be excluded? The mills at Bradford and other places must be utensils of trade. Merchants might say that their ships were either stock or utensils of trade. Certainly all the fittings of those ships, their luxurious accommodations, their plate-glass, their linen, their wines, would be stock in trade. The stock of innkeepers and hotel-keepers, with the whole property in their houses, must be stock in trade. But what would the right hon. Gentleman say to the rolling stock of railways and their stations? Surely these must be stock in trade or utensils? The right hon. Gentleman had raised a distinction as to machinery used for the purpose of manufacture and machinery used for the purpose of trade. These formed two distinct items in his calculation. Who was to decide between them? A thousand-and-one other objections would naturally suggest themselves to persons who understood this question; and endless difficulties, vexations, and perplexities would be occasioned. The proposition of the right hon. Gentleman was impracticable; or, if at all practicable, it would end in litigation and annoyance. Such being the conditions attaching to the proposal, what were the reasons which had induced the right hon. Gentleman to make this distinction? There must be some substantial reason to induce the right hon. Gentleman to propose that the House should consent to alter the Resolution they passed only a year ago. What were the reasons which had induced him to wade into the by-paths of this question, that could only end in doubt and perplexity, when the open road lay before him in the Resolution of the House? The right hon. Gentleman gave two reasons. The first was that there was the greatest possible difference of opinion as to the self-

1443
recovering power of the Fire Insurance duty. He should like to know where he found those opinions. Whoso opinions were they to which he referred? Who was it that said there was doubt as to the recovering power of this duty? The right hon. Gentleman had not adduced any authority on the subject. The right hon. Gentleman had not produced a single authority in support of his view. The more correct way of putting the case would be, that the opinions of writers on the subject were all the other way—they were all unanimous in their conclusions with regard to the reproducing power of this duty. M'Culloch, Porter, Newmarch, Samuel Brown, all the practical men on the question, and those who felt the pulse of the people in regard to it, combined in opinion that a moderate reduction of the duty would be followed by a replacement of revenue. But the public pointed to a reduction of 2s. per cent in the duty, and that, he had no doubt, would be ultimately effected. Stock in trade was insured nearly to its limits, whereas it was calculated that 80 per cent of houses and furniture were yet to be insured. The only person who appeared to entertain the opinion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on this point was Mr. Coode, the counsel for the Exchequer, to whom the right hon. Gentleman so largely referred last year. It would be desirable to know what were the authorities upon which the right hon. Gentleman justified his conclusions. The next argument of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was that taxes on trade and industry replaced themselves more easily and more rapidly than taxes upon property, and the illustration given by the right hon. Gentleman was very amusing. He gave the instance of the assessed taxes. Was it possible that the House could be brought to accept such an illustration? The assessed taxes were compulsory taxes, levied upon all ascertained property of certain kinds, and it was perfectly monstrous to suppose that duties which were compulsory, with penalties attaching to attempted evasions of them, could be likened to a voluntary tax which might be paid or not, without any liability to penalties. There was no analogy between the two cases. If the assessed taxes were reduced to any slight extent, what expectation could there be of an increase of revenue from that source? No one would in consequence set up another carriage, or keep another dog, or wear more
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hair powder. And yet the right hon. Gentleman told the House that because the assessed taxes would not maintain themselves or increase after reductions in the rates of duties, therefore the income from Fire Insurances would equally fail to recover or increase after reduction. That, too, was assuming that the duty upon Fire Insurances was a tax upon property. He disputed that view. He denied that it was a tax upon property as much as it was a tax upon income. A person with an income of £500 a year, and insuring for £3,000, would, if the duty upon insurances were removed, save 2d, in £1, and a person with £250 a year income, insuring for £1,500, would save an equal amount. It was in such cases an income tax, but it certainly could not be called a tax upon property. The House had come to a Resolution upon this subject so long ago that lie hardly liked now to trespass upon their time to show how incorrect was the description of the tax given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but he would just give one illustration to show its real nature. He would take a street with houses of equal value and furniture of similar amount on either side. The inhabitants of the houses on one side might insure, and then they would pay the tax; but the inhabitants of the houses on the other side might decline to insure, and then they would pay no tax. That illustration would prove that the tax was not a tax upon property, but upon the act of insuring. How, then, could the right hon. Gentleman call it a tax upon property, and draw a parallel between it and the assessed taxes, and then call upon the House to come to a conclusion based upon such an assumption? He could not understand why a distinction was to be made in favour of stock in trade. The right hon. Gentleman's figures were hardly reliable, his reasons were erroneous, and the parallel he drew between the assessed taxes and the tax on Fire Insurance would not hold. Was it possible that the right hon. Gentleman had remembered that those who had pressed upon him hardest for a remission of the duty were the dwellers in houses, the masses, the millions of the people, whom he now passed over by the distinction he made, the middle classes, the workmen with their small stocks of furniture and tools, whom he chose to style property-holders? Did he wish to tell those classes that they had been too urgent in their demands, had pressed too

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hardly upon the Government for the remission of this tax, and therefore he took this opportunity of saying to them, "You must stand by and let others be served first?" It was difficult to believe that such could be the right hon. Gentleman's meaning, but some such idea would present itself to the minds of those who would be excluded from all benefit of the proposed reduction. It was possible that the right hon. Gentleman might have a better argument on the last point which he had put forth, as to the exemption of farming stock. The Chancellor of the Exchequer naturally was shocked at that exemption, and had not hesitated to express the indignation he felt at it. The right hon. Gentleman said, "There is something very invidious on the present exemption of farming stock. That exemption was unfairly granted." He (Mr. Sheridan, quite agreed that the distinction was invidious and unfair, and he had been anxious to discover how the right hon. Gentleman proposed to remedy it. The right hon. Gentleman told them he proposed to mitigate that exemption by a reduction of one-half the duty upon Fire Insurance upon stock in trade. That was a proceeding which it was difficult to understand. An exemption was condemned, and the cure proposed was the creation of another and a similar wrong. Thus two wrongs were supposed to make right; but that was a novel way of legislating upon a vexed question. What did the public out of doors think of that proposition? There had been at first a feeling among the public that the exemption of farming stock was due to the fact that the farmers had so many friends in that House; but that feeling died out when it was found that the beat friends to the general reduction of the tax were the country Gentlemen and the owners of land, who, to their credit, had, without regard to party views, always been the most earnest supporters of a universally remedial measure. Now, however, it was proposed to establish another exemption that was equally as objectionable as the former, The result would be confusion worse confounded, more ill blood created, and the existing wrong to the great body of the public heightened, and that was called a mitigation of the first exemption. Of course, the people out of doors grumbled at that; they were not worthy of a Chancellor of the Exchequer who looked after their interests in that way. But the fact
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was that there was a great disinclination among the public to receive this proposition as a boon. It was impossible to find in the reasons which had been assigned any excuse, he might even say any apology, for the proposition now made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The right hon. Gentleman told them it was in deference to the formal indication of the opinions of the House that the Government had thought it their duty to deal with this tax, although they were not prepared to make a reduction of any great extent. But the House knew, before it passed its Resolution, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not prepared with an immediate and large reduction. The proposal that he (Mr. Sheridan) had made to the House was a reduction of 1s. in the duty on all insurances all round, and after two or three years a further reduction of another 1s. The right hon. Gentleman accepted that Resolution as an instruction to the Government, but it was possible that he had not understood fully the effect of that Resolution, and had mistaken the meaning of the House in passing it. The right hon. Gentleman had told them what his object was without the slightest attempt at concealment. He hoped that the House would not allow itself to be trifled with, but that it would support his Resolution, which involved a general reduction of the Fire Insurance duty, instead of the reduction of a particular portion. The House should at once show the right hon. Gentleman that its Resolutions must for the future be binding, and that it was not prepared in every instance to be implicitly guided by the right hon. Gentleman. Was the House to have no opportunity of giving force to its views and to those of its constituents? The petitions which had been presented upon this subject did not originate from a portion of the people, but were participated in by the bulk of the community. The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving his Resolution.
MR. HADFIELD, in seconding the Amendment, said, he was convinced that the revenue would suffer considerably if the present mode of taxation were adhered to. Ono of the railway companies, paying £1,000 a year for Fire Insurance, of which sum two-thirds was on account of the duty, had determined to insure themselves, and the consequence was that the revenue had suffered severely from the exorbitant amount of the rate. This example was also being followed by other railway companies.
Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "in the opinion of this House, such a reduction of the Fire Insurance Duty as that contemplated by the Resolution of the House passed last Session would be best effected by an uniform reduction of one shilling per cent on all descriptions of property liable to the said Duty,"—(Mr. Henry B. Sheridan,)
—instead thereof.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he would endeavour to curtail his remarks as far as possible, and he should therefore begin by throwing aside all the arguments connected with the hon. Gentleman's interpretation of his motives, which really had nothing whatever to do with the subject under the consideration of the House. He would also draw a distinction between those of his arguments which were relevant and those which were not. The argument employed by the seconder of the Amendment (Mr. Hadfield) though they might apply to the Resolution of the hon. Member for Evesham, were not relevant to the question, which was purely a financial one. He need not dwell upon what the hon. Gentleman had said about the absence of any authorities on his part. The hon. Gentleman had, however, in his arguments put entirely aside the testimony of all those who had been responsible during a long series of years for the proper conduct and management of the revenue of the country, and of all those whose duty it was to have formed a responsible opinion upon the subject. It was not, however, necessary to dwell further upon that portion of the question. The hon. Gentleman had asked him where he had obtained his estimate. He did not think that it was at all necessary to give an answer to that question; but he would state that he had obtained it by requesting the persons connected with the Board of Inland Revenue to wait on the largest and best of the Insurance Companies, and he believed that that estimate was the best that could be arrived at. The hon. Gentleman was wrong in supposing that there was any greater difficulty in determining stock in trade than there was in defining farm stock. The hon. Gentleman had made two statements. One was, that he did not wish to take away the means he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had, and that his Amendment would leave him sufficient means for the public service; and
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the second was, that if he had not sufficient means it was his own fault. Now, he would confine himself to those two statements. What did the hon. Gentleman mean by saying that it was his fault if there were any insufficiency in the revenue after the reduction of the tax as proposed by the Amendment? His meaning was that Her Majesty's Government had been wrong in proposing the reduction of the Income Tax from 7d. to 6d. The meaning of the hon. Gentleman was that they should have reserved that sum, and have applied it to a more liberal reduction of the Fire Insurance duty instead. There were undoubtedly arguments for each course, but he believed the preponderance to be against the plan proposed by the hon. Gentleman. The hon. Gentleman to be honest, ought not, however, to have moved a Resolution which would have the effect of leaving him with a financial deficit—he should rather have proposed a Resolution blaming Her Majesty's Government for their proposed reduction of the Income Tax, and, at the same time, suggesting as a substitute the reduction of the Fire Insurance duty to 1s. The hon. Gentleman had said that the fault was his if he had not the money; but where did the hon. Gentleman expect him to find it? He had already stated on the part of the Government that sugar had the first claims on the surplus, and that the Income Tax ranked next in importance. The hon. Gentleman must either agree to those propositions or dissent from them. If he did coincide in the views expressed in them, it was useless to talk about a further reduction of the Fire Insurance duty at the present moment. It was really surprising to see how the hon. Gentleman had dealt with his figures. If the hon. Gentleman could also give him the power of counting his money twice over he would undertake to repeal the Fire Insurance duty tomorrow. He had stated that the hon. Gentleman proposed to deprive him of a trifle over £400,000; but the hon. Gentleman had charged him with omitting to take into consideration the natural increase of the revenue. He had, of course, made the omission, because the increase had already been once provided for—it was taken into account when the estimate was made. The hon. Gentleman had said that he would obtain £21,000 more by means of the discount, but that discount had already disappeared in the reduction. The discount was chargeable equally on the

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whole of the £1,700,000, and, whether they deducted it upon a larger or upon a smaller sum, the proportion of discount would disappear with it; and, therefore, in point of fact, with the exception of some £5,000 or £10,000, in which his statement as to the reproductive powers of the tax differed from that of the hon. Gentleman's, the case would stand precisely as he had at first stated it to the House. If the proposal of the Government was a bad one, let the House reject it; and if they thought the proposal of the hon. Member for Evesham a better one, let them take that: but the hon. Member for Dudley proposed to take away every rag and shred of the surplus which, in deference to the wishes of the House, he proposed to hold, and would land him in all probability in financial bankruptcy. If the proposal of the Government could be improved, let that improvement by all means be made; but they should on no account permit that improvement or pretext of improvement to be the ground for violating those wider principles which were essential for the welfare of the community, and for the' maintenance of the public credit.
MR. HUBBARDrose amid loud cries of "divide." The hon. Member said that he would not detain the House more than a quarter of an hour—[Great laughter— whereon the hon. Gentleman sat down]
MR. DISRAELI: Sir, I will not speak for a quarter of an hour, but only for two minutes. I wish merely to explain the vote I shall give. I think that the principle laid down in the Amendment, as distinguished from the proposition of the Government, is the right principle. I have, first of all, to consider the Resolution which the House has arrived at, and then to consider the difficulties in the way of taxing stock in trade—a consideration which weighs much with me, though the Chancellor of the Exchequer holds it light. At the same time, I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman that, after the financial statement which he made to the House, no alteration ought to be made in that arrangement, and that we ought to confine ourselves to appropriating the sum understood to be at our disposal, in the manner best calculated to carry out the views adopted by the House. Therefore, though I shall vote for the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman, I shall, in case that is carried, move, when it becomes a substantive Motion, the omission of the words, "1s. per cent," and then it will run—
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"That in the opinion of this House the reduction of the Fire Duty in the manner proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not the mode contemplated by the Resolution of the House passed last Session on this subject, and that the uniform reduction of duty on all descriptions of property liable to the said duty will be more acceptable."
MR. T. BARINGsaid, that he should vote against the Resolution, because he was against the sacrifice of revenue.
SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYalso felt bound to vote against the Amendment, as he did not think it proper, after the House had accepted the main principles of the Budget—the reduction of the sugar duties and the reduction of the Income Tax—now to introduce any Motion destroying the surplus altogether.
SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEexplained that his right hon. Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire did not propose to interfere with the surplus; but, thinking the proposal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer with respect to the Fire Insurance duty not satisfactory to the country, intended, in case the Amendment became a substantive Motion, to move the omission from it of those words which, according to the Chancellor of the Exchequer's calculations, involved a sacrifice of revenue.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
The House divided:—Ayes 170; Noes 117: Majority 53.
Main Question put, and agreed to.

WAYS AND MEANS.
WAYS AND MEANS considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
Motion made, and Question proposed.
"That, in lieu of the yearly per-centage Duty now chargeable for or in respect of any Insurance from loss or damage by Fire only, which shall be made or renewed on or after the 25th day of June, 1864, of or upon any Goods, Wares, or Merchandise, being stock in trade, or of or upon any Machinery, Fixtures, Implements, or Utensils used for the purpose of any manufacture or trade, there shall be charged and paid yearly a Duty at and after the rate of one shilling and sixpence per annum for every £100 insured; and when any such Insurance as aforesaid shall be made or renewed at any time between the 22nd day of April, 1864, and the said 25th day of June, for any period of time extending beyond the said last mentioned day, there shall be charged and paid for and in respect of the time intervening between the making or renewing of the said Insurance and the said 25th day of June, the yearly per-centage Duty at and after the rate chargeable on the said 22nd day of April, and for and in

1451
respect of any subsequent period, including the said 25th day of June, the rate of Duty chargeable according to this Resolution; and no Return or allowance of Duty, except at and after the last-mentioned rate, shall be made in respect of time unexpired, or otherwise, on any such Insurance as aforesaid which shall have been made or renewed before the said 22nd day of April, 1864."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYmoved an Amendment, in the fourth line, after the word "any," to leave out the words "goods, wares, or merchandise, being stock in trade, or of or upon any machinery, implements, fixtures, or utensils used for the purpose of any manufacture or trade," and to insert "houses and buildings." Her Majesty's Government had determined to touch the Fire Insurance duties, whether wisely or not he could not say; but that being so, it appeared to him to be of great importance that they should correctly understand what class of property it was the partial remission of the duty was intended to benefit. The right hon. Gentleman had selected "stock in trade," and since the announcement was made, he (Sir Henry Willoughby) with others, had received communications from various Insurance Offices which went to show that the difficulties attending the proposed alteration would be very great. Setting aside the difficulty that would arise in defining what "stock in trade" was, he thought that that was the last class of property on which a remission ought to be made, seeing that an insurance for £1,000 would, in the course of a year, cover many thousand pounds worth of property. But the main argument upon which he asked for the support of the Committee to his Amendment was that stock in trade ought not to be benefited at the expense of houses and buildings. No species of taxation was so much harassed by taxation as houses and buildings; for besides what it had to bear towards the general taxation of the country, it bore in an especial manner the burden of local taxation, amounting to no less than from £19,000,000 to £20,000,000 annually. It was a perfect truth that real property paid one-half, and houses and buildings nearly four-tenths of the taxation of the country, and it was also as true that stock in trade did not pay a shilling. Then, again, in considering how the revenue might best recover from any reduction, the largest margin of uninsured property consisted of houses and buildings. How, therefore, stock in trade could be selected in preference to houses and buildings, he was at a loss to conceive. For the sake
1452
of justice, therefore, he should press his Amendment. He should not enter into the financial part of the question, because he was not prepared to throw Her Majesty's Government into a financial difficulty, not because it was impolitic, but that it would be most unfair to do so at that stage of their finance; but he trusted, if in the opinion of the Committee it was considered fairer to relieve houses and buildings than stock in trade, the right hon. Gentleman would have no difficulty in re-arranging the financial position of the question.
Amendment proposed,
In the fourth line, after the first word "any," to leave out the words" Goods, Wares, or Merchandise, being stock in trade, or of or upon any Machinery, Implements, Fixtures, or Utensils used for the purpose of any manufacture or trade," in order to insert the words "Houses or Buildings,"—(Sir Henry Willoughby,)
—instead thereof.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that as he had dealt with the very points which had been raised by the hon. Baronet in his reply to the hon. Member for Dudley, it would not be necessary for him to go into the subject again at any length. He must divide what he had to say into two parts—one, the financial, the other the general merits of the question. With regard to the financial part of the question he quite understood the fundamental principle of the hon. Gentleman's Amendment—namely, that he was not disposed to wrench anything from the Government, but that what he wanted was what he considered a better division of the surplus. Now, his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) proposition was that a sum of between £190,000 and £200,000 should be given by way of relief with respect to Fire Insurance in the present year. The hon. Baronet, however, proposed to insert certain words in a Resolution which spoke of a reduction of duty by one-half. If, therefore, the proposal of the hon. Baronet was carried, it would have to be adjusted to the state of the finances. There were two ways by which that adjustment might be effected— the one by a postponement of the remission, the other by a reduction in its amount. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) proposed to take only three-fourths of the remission off the shoulders of the present year, so that the full force of it would not be felt until next year. But if he was to retain the 1s. 6d. rate, and apply it to twice the number of subjects, then the postponement must be of a different character, for it would not be possible to commence the reduction

1453
until the beginning of next year. And what character would that proceeding affix to the vote that night? It would be said that, wishing to do a popular thing by their constituents, and not having the money to do it out of the resources of the present year,; which alone were properly at their disposal, they voted a reduction of taxation and got credit for it, but postponed it to the following year. That, he thought, was an objectionable course to pursue, although there were instances where they had been obliged to do it; such, for instance, as the tea duties; but he knew of no instance where the House had adopted a course of voting the abolition or partial repeal of a tax by throwing almost the entire burden of it upon the next year. If the hon. Baronet's Motion was carried, the only other mode of adjustment was by halving the remission, and instead of giving 1s.6 d. upon stock in trade to give9 d. upon houses and buildings. Ought that proposal to be adopted or not? The hon. Member for Dudley quoted the Insurance Offices, and correctly quoted them, as greatly preferring a uniform rate, No doubt they would, as it would simplify matters, There would be a certain amount of lahour in looking over the accounts with a view to fixing some at 3s. and some at Is. 6d. But the Companies had been well paid hitherto. But as far as the authority of the Companies was concerned they were in favour of a uniform duty, and consequently the proposals both of the hon. Baronet and himself fell foul of those Companies. But the hon. Baronet had raised an objection about the definition of stock in trade and the difficulty of distinguishing between landlords' fixtures and tenants' fixtures. But difficulties of that kind would operate plainly as much under the hon. Baronet's plan as under his. Under his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) proposal everybody would be trying to show that he was a trader, and that his house and furniture were stock in trade, while under the proposal of the hon. Baronet everybody would try to prove that he was not a trader. The hon. Baronet Stated that nothing was so much burdened as houses and buildings. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was not quite so sure of that. He heard the hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Hadfield) cheer the statement when made by the hon. Baronet—but what was the hon. Member's opinion about the succession duty? Did he think it more severe than the legacy duty and the probate duty? And yet house property was taken out of the probate and legacy duty and placed under the succession duty, which
1454
was a large concession. Was it true that nothing had been done of late years for the relief of houses and buildings? The brick duty had disappeared. An enormous differential duty on timber had given place to what was called a nominal rate of duty, but which he would admit it was extremely desirable to abolish. Even in the present Session houses and buildings were relieved by the financial proposal of the Government. He doubted whether there was any class in the whole country, except professional men, to whom the reduction of the Income Tax was so great a boon as to owners of houses and buildings, for there was no class on which it operated with such severity, especially the owners of inferior houses, inasmuch as the Income Tax was paid upon the gross rental, 25 per cent of which was often expended in repairs. The question was between a reduction of 1s. 6d. on stock in trade and 9d. on houses and buildings. Now, if the House touched a tax of this kind it ought to make a liberal reduction; it was better to give a telling reduction on a small part than a reduction that would not be appreciated on a small part. The hon. Baronet said that in the case of stock in trade that property was fully insured, while houses and buildings were insured only in part. But his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) inquiries by no means satisfied him that there was a greater margin uncovered by fire insurance in the case of houses and buildings as compared with stock in trade. He believed that, on the contrary, there was rather less. No doubt, in certain trades and certain descriptions of trades the stock was not fully insured; but generally speaking the very large traders were fully insured. When a fire came on the large traders it spared very little. In the case of houses there was something left worth saving; and so with regard to furniture; a great deal of it was generally carried out. In these latter cases people did not insure to the full. He could only ascertain whether buildings were insured or not in about half the cases of fires in the metropolitan district; but according to the best information he could get from the Insurance Offices and the Fire Brigade, the number of fires in 1863 was 1,746 of houses and buildings. Of these there were known to be insured 682, and known to be uninsured only seventy-three. That was a very small margin. In the case of the contents of houses and buildings there were known to he insured 963, and known to be uninsured.517, which left

1455
a considerable margin of uninsured stock in trade. As to the unknown cases, according to the best estimate about one-half were found to be insured. Suppose the other half to be all uninsured, the effect would be that 500 would have to be added to the 682 insured buildings, bringing the number up to 1,182; and adding the same number to the uninsured buildings, they would then stand at 573. With respect to the margin in the case of stock in trade, the largest traders and the best trades were commonly fully insured; the smaller traders, according to his information, were deterred from insuring by the amount of the duty. He could not concur in the opinion of the hon. Baronet that real property was unfairly dealt with in this country. The system of taxation in this country bore quite as hardly as it ought to do on the consumer and the lower class of the population. His hon. Friend the Member for Bradford (Mr. W. E. Forster) came to him in presence of the representatives of the Associated Chamber of Commerce. He said that within his own knowledge the deficiency of insurances in manufactures was so great that he was convinced a reduction of 1s. would pay itself within three or four years. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would not go so far as that, but the case in favour of this class of reduction was very strong. A great deal had been said about removing the charges on trade. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) desired to remove the charges from trade; but he denied that taking a tax off trade was a concession to the poorer classes. Taking a tax off trade was removing an obstacle from the channel between the producer and the consumer. The object was to make trade unshackled, and relieving trade was not relieving a class, but it was relieving all those who consumed the articles from which the tax was removed. Suppose the Government laid a tax of 1d. on every transaction of trade in London — would that be a tax which the trader and not the consumer would pay? With the exception of a tax on receipts and bills of exchange, he did not know that there was a single tax on trade remaining. If the House concurred in the view which he had just submitted, he thought they would do well to vote for his Resolution. He thought a reduction of 1s. 6d. preferable to one of 9d.; but he did not stand on that alone. He stood more on the proposition that reducing the duty on houses and buildings would be a relief to a class, while a reduction of the
1456
duty on stock in trade was not a relief to a class but to the general community who were the consumers of articles of trade and manufacture, that community including among its members the owners of houses and buildings. He waived at once all objections of a financial class, except that he thought his measure would prove greatly more reproductive than that proposed by the hon. Baronet.
SIR FRANCIS GOLDSMIDsaid, he could not concur with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the reduction which the right hon. Gentleman proposed was the one most likely to be reproductive. He supported the proposition of the hon. Baronet the Member for Evesham, not because he wished to favour the owners of houses and buildings, but for this reason— that, as far as one could learn, the rate of insurance on stock in trade was considerably higher than that on other matters. What was the conclusion from that? Not the one which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had attempted to draw from it— namely, that because persons could hardly afford to pay 6s., therefore they could not afford to pay 7s.6d—it would be much more natural to conclude that though a man might pay 1s. 6d., he might not be in a position to pay 4s. 6d. If, as in the case of stock in trade, a man paid the Insurance Office 9s. or 10 s., it did not matter so much to him whether he paid the State 3s. or 1s. 6d. In the one case the ratio of reduction to the whole cost of insurance was very large; in the other almost inconsiderable, and reduction of duty on any article must be the greatest boon to the person who paid lowest for that article.
MR. HUBBARDsaid, he could not but imagine that if his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been as anxious to carry out the wishes of the House, pronounced on two occasions, as he had been to evade them, the first reduction he would have announced in his Budget would have been one of 1s. 6d. on all the duty paid for Fire Insurance. The reduction in the Income Tax was one very acceptable to the House, but it was not one for which they had specifically asked. The reduction of the sugar duties was also acceptable to the House, but the House had not asked for any exact amount of reduction on these duties. However, when they came to that duty of which the House had asked specifically for a general reduction, his right hon. Friend presented them with nothing but "a delusion and a snare." The expectation of a large increase in the

1457
insurances of stock in trade was a "delusion," and the invitation to the House to stake on the event of that increase the reduction of duty on the insurance of houses, was a "snare." The rate of insurance on stock in trade in London varied from 4s. in the best dock warehouses to 21 s. in warehouses throughout the town. Take the medium, and it would at once be seen how unimportant was the duty now charged by the Government, comparatively with the premium of insurance on stock in trade as contrasted with houses. Besides, it should be borne in mind that whatever was spent in the insurance of stock in trade was but one element in the price to the consumer. The trader did not abstain from insuring his stock, because he knew that whatever the sum it might cost him to do so, his customers had ultimately to pay the amount. But it was not so with the owners of houses and buildings. The fact of having to pay 3s. duty on a payment of 1s. 6d. to the Insurance Office was a greater bar to insurance than the fact of having to pay a similar amount of duty on a payment of 21 s. to the office. He thought that the simplicity of a general reduction strongly recommended such a measure. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that the insurance tax was a tax on property. Therefore did he (Mr. Hubbard) regard it as objectionable; because a property tax should be applicable to all houses, and the insurance tax was applicable only to the houses that were insured. The houses insured were not the houses of the rich— the rich could afford not to insure. It was of no consequence to the rich to insure. With extensive property the rich found it cheaper not to insure, or, in other words, like the large shipowners, to become their own insurers. He had been informed, within the last few days, of a nobleman who had cancelled no less than eighty-one policies on his houses and buildings in one county, on the ground that he would not pay to Government, in the shape of insurance duty, what the Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted was in reality a second property tax. The other day, the right hon. Gentleman sought to equalize a burden which bore upon clergymen. Now, he (Mr. Hubbard) had received a letter from the perpetual curate of a church which depended entirely upon pew rents, out of which the whole expenses of the church had to be defrayed. In his case, the duty paid to the Government upon the insurance of the church amounted to no
1458
less than 2 per cent on the net receipts, being practically an additional Income Tax to that amount. There were other cases in which the magnitude of the tax was so much felt that the churchwardens refused to spend money belonging to the congregation upon insuring at all. As the result of a personal experience of nearly forty years, he declared that nothing could be more delusive than the propositions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He would infinitely rather see the question of Fire Insurance passed by altogether this Session, than see the House fall into the trap laid for it, of agreeing that the realization of the object, which, in two successive years, had been affirmed by increasing majorities should depend upon the occurrence of an impossible condition. The right hon. Gentleman, he thought, had been highly favoured by the arrival of the dinner hour, which had carried away many Members who would have taken part in the debate. He should be glad if the House were to refuse the proposition of the right hon. Gentleman. He should infinitely prefer either to leave things alone, or that the remission should apply to all property alike, so far as the means at the disposal of the Government permitted. He did most earnestly protest against accepting the Government proposition with all its prospective bearings, and he regretted that the Government had not carried out more effectively for public benefit the principle twice approved by the House in successive years by increasing majorities.
SIR FRANCIS CROSSLEYsaid, he approved of the Budget as a whole, and, on that principle, he had voted that evening with the majority, though, if he had looked to the question of Fire Insurance alone, he should have taken a different course. He regarded the question of Fire Insurance as the weak part of the Budget, otherwise a very good one; and regretted that, having dealt satisfactorily with the two great questions of the Sugar Duties and the Income Tax, the right hon. Gentleman should have touched the subject of insurance, not having a sufficiently large balance to do so with good effect. To reduce the tax generally from 3s. to 1s., would have been a substantial boon; but to reduce it from 3s. to 1s. 6d. upon a single branch was altogether unsatisfactory. He had been surprised to hear the right hon. Gentleman lay such stress upon arguments as to the increase which might be expected upon insurances of stock in trade.

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The great factories and warehouses from their enormous value were insured almost as a matter of necessity now; but the owner of a private house having to pay the Government 3s. for every 1s.6d of insurance, very often thought that the cheapest thing he could do was to be his own insurer. In the division which had just taken place he had supported the right hon. Gentleman, and should support him again, because he regarded the Budget as a whole; but, with regard to the particular question of insurance duties, he believed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was in error. His proposal would produce immense complication of accounts, and would not, he hoped, be regarded in anywise as a settlement.
MR. H. B. SHERIDANdid not think that the cause of the Fire Insurance duties would be helped on by a division being taken then. He thought it would be better for the hon. Baronet to leave the matter as it stood. The principle of reduction had been admitted, and next year with renewed agitation they might hope for a more substantial remission.
SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, he would not press his Motion to a division.
MR. HUBBARDwished to renew his solemn protest against this measure, which he deemed to be of a most delusive character.
Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Resolution," put, and agreed to.
Main Question put, and agreed to.
Resolved,
That, in lieu of the yearly per-centage Duty now chargeable for or in respect of any Insurance from loss or damage by Fire only, which shall be made or renewed on or after the 25th day of June, 1864, of or upon any Goods, Wares, or Merchandise, being stock in trade, or of or upon any Machinery, Fixtures, Implements, or Utensils used for the purpose of any manufacture or trade, there shall be charged and paid yearly a Duty at and after the rate of one shilling and sixpence per annum for every £100 insured; and when any such Insurance as aforesaid shall be made or renewed at any time between the 22nd day of April, 1864, and the said 25th day of June, for any period of time extending beyond the said last-mentioned day, there shall be charged and paid for and in respect of the time intervening between the making or renewing of the said Insurance and the said 25th day of June, the yearly percentage Duty at and after the rate chargeable on the said 22nd day of April, and for and in respect of any subsequent period, including the said 25th day of June, the rate of Duty chargeable according to this Resolution; and no return or allowance of Duty, except at and after the last-mentioned rate,
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shall be made in respect of time unexpired, or otherwise, on any such Insurance as aforesaid, which shall have been made or renewed before the said 22nd day of April, 1864.
House resumed.
Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.
Committee to sit again To-morrow.

SUPPLY.
Order for Committee read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

SCHOOL OF NAVAL ARCHITECTURE.
  QUESTION.
  MR. AUGUSTUS SMITHsaid, he wished to ask the noble Lord the Secretary of the Admiralty, On what footing it was intended to establish the School of Naval Architecture, for which the House had voted a small sum of money? He was anxious for this information, in order that the House might not be surprised into a large and costly scheme without knowing what it was about. When the subject was last under discussion, almost every one deprecated the establishment of the School at Kensington. There were already in our dockyards the nuclei of schools of naval architecture, which to a certain extent had answered their objects, and had done a great deal of good. He desired to know how the private pupils who, it was said, were to be received into this School, were to be treated during the six months when the students were to be transferred to the dockyards; but, above all, he was anxious to learn whether this subject had been thoroughly investigated by the Treasury, or whether the whole matter had been left to the Admiralty?
CORK HARBOUR.—QUESTION.
MR. MAGUIREwished to knew, Whether the Select Committee on Dockyards had consented to take evidence as to the capability of the harbour of Cork, and the expediency of establishing a naval dockyard in it?
CLAIMS OF MR. JOHN CLARE, JUN.

  SELECT COMMITTEE MOVED FOR.
  COLONEL DICKSON, in rising to move for a Select Committee to inquire into the claims of Mr. John Clare, jun., on the Government for compensation for Inventions and Designs supplied to the Admiralty in

  1461
  connection with Iron Ship Building and the construction of Gun Boats, said, he must ask from the House more than an ordinary share of indulgence in bringing the subject forward. He feared, on the one hand, that his client might suffer from him, and he from his client; because, as to the last, in this case it was supposed that a great demand had been made; and when a great or disproportionate demand was made for compensation a prejudice was created. But, on consideration, he believed the House would think that Mr. Clare was deserving of sympathy and assistance. Mr. Clare had suffered great injustice and oppression, and that would be rewarded as some condonation for the eccentricities he had displayed. He (Colonel Dickson) intended no attack on the present Board of Admiralty by this Motion, for Mr. Glare had been the victim of injustice to Boards of Admiralty composed of different parties in the House, Mr. Clare was a young man of the most respectable position, possessed of great talents and ingenuity. In 1847 he had his attention first drawn to the subject of iron shipbuilding, and the necessity of substituting iron for wood in those great sea defences in which this country had always felt a pride. It was in 1853 that his correspondence with the Board of Admiralty first began. The House would remember that this was a most interesting period in our naval history, when we were commencing a struggle with a powerful nation of which no one could fortell the end, and when it became necessary that there should be a total rearrangement of our naval forces. The first letter of Mr, Clare was in December, 1853, and was addressed to Mr. Bernal Osborne, then Secretary to the Admiralty, in which he sketched the nature of ins invention, and sought the attention of the Admiralty to it. A correspondence took place with various Boards of Admiralty— as well during the administration of those who sat on his own side of the House, as while the party opposite were in power. The reply of the Admiralty to Mr. Clare's application was to the effect that, if "Mr. Clare had anything new to suggest as to the mode of constructing gunboats, and would forward it to the Admiralty, it would be considered." He did forward his ideas to the Admiralty; but for some time heard no more of the matter. In 1855 he addressed Sir Charles Wood then at the Admiralty, pointing out the futility of employing the then description of gun-
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  boats against the Russian batteries. And here he (Colonel Dickson) should like to know what had become of those gunboats which Mr. Clare had denounced. But then followed a letter from his right hon. Friend Mr. Corry, when his right hon. Friend Sir John Pakington was at the Admiralty; and in that letter in reply to Mr. Clare, the singular answer was returned that the Board of Admiralty limited applications to their own officers and to those who were in a position to build the vessels, and that therefore they could not comply with Mr. Clare's request, but would be willing to receive any suggestion on the subject. So that in order for the Admiralty to avail themselves of an invention, it was a necessary condition that a man should either be able to build a ship or have a large balance at his banker's. The correspondence with the Admiralty went on for six years. The plans and models of Mr. Clare were placed in the hands of the Admiralty in 1854 and 1855; they were in Sir Baldwin Walker's office in 1857, and the Warrior was not built till 1859. The Warrior, let it be remembered, was built entirely on Mr. Clare's plan—a plan on which no ship had been ever built before, and to the invention of which that gentleman was wholly and solely entitled to lay claim. He (Colonel Dickson) should be told that this case had been tried in a court of law, and that, therefore, Mr. Clare had no claim on the sympathy of the House. Now, he in no way intended to make the House of Commons a court of appeal from a court of law, and far be it from him to impugn a court of justice like the Court of Queen's Bench; but this he would say, that with the usual fatality that had attended all Mr. Clare's attempts to get justice done him, his case was most wretchedly put into the hands of counsel, evidence which should have been brought forward was not brought forward, and the evidence on the part of the Government was the evidence of partisans, almost all of them being officially connected with the Admiralty. If a Committee were granted, almost every part of that evidence could be contradicted, He would refer to the not unimportant evidence of Sir Charles Fox. That witness, in speaking of the ship constructed in the yard of Messrs. Laird, of Birkenhead, in 1852, and in which Mr. Macgregor Laird went out to the west coast of Africa, deposed that she had her longitudinal and vertical framework on the

  1463
  principle now claimed by Mr. Clare; but Mr. Morrison, in the employ of Messrs. Laird, who had witnessed the building of the ship from first to last, and who ought to have been examined but was not, declared he was in a position to give a flat contradiction to the evidence of Sir Charles Fox on this point. In fact, it was well known that before the Warrior no ship had been built with longitudinal framework. In the same way a gentleman who was subpoenaed from the Admiralty sent a medical certificate stating that he was too unwell to appear, though it was known that he was in town, and at the Admiralty that very day. No doubt the demands that were made by Mr. Clare were extravagant, and his manner of supporting them eccentric, and this might have had an effect upon the Judge, whose summing up was more like the impassioned argument of an interested counsel than the calm deliberation of an impartial Judge. The jury arrived at an adverse verdict, finding that the patent was not infringed, and secondly, that the specification did not show longitudinal and vertical framework separate from the plates—which he (Colonel Dickson) contended it did. But he (Colonel Dickson) would ask, if Mr. Clare did not design the Warrior who did? She was not built until 1859, and she was the first ship built upon the principle of longitudinal framing. Had anybody claimed that invention? Nobody but the officials of the Admiralty. Where did Mr. Eady, Mr. Ward, and Sir Baldwin Walker, obtain their ideas about the Warrior? Mr. Clare's plans and specifications were at the Admiralty for six years, and it was not until 1859 that the first ship, the Warrior, was built embracing the novelty which they contained. Sir Baldwin Walker and the other officials had been confined all their lives within the Admiralty routine, addicted to the building of wooden vessels, and where then could they have got their ideas of iron shipbuilding? Considering that Mr. Clare's plans had been at the Admiralty all this time, and that a correspondence had been going on which must have drawn the attention of everybody at the Admiralty to the subject, it was pretty palpable that their plans for the Warrior must have been founded on hints at least drawn from Mr. Clare's invention. He (Colonel Dickson) believed that Captain Cowper Coles had taken a great many of his ideas from Mr. Clare's invention, and Captain Cowper Coles had received for his
  1464
  remuneration captain's pay, £600; three guineas a day, £1,149; expenses of travelling, £470; and interest on £5,000 at 5 per cent, £250; with £100 for every cupola he made for fourteen years. Captain Cowper Coles, however, had rather higher connections than Mr. Clare. He (Colonel Dickson) would appeal to the noble Lord at the head of the Government, who, he believed, entertained pretty much the same sentiments on the subject of Mr. Clare's claims, and the manner in which he had been treated, that he (Colonel Dickson) did, to use his influence with the House in behalf of justice to Mr. Clare; and he appealed to the noble Lord the Secretary to the Admiralty to throw off the trammels of red tape, and, like the generous sailor that he was, to take a similar course; and lastly, he appealed to the House, whose duty it was to protect the interest of every subject of the realm.
  Amendment proposed,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the Claims of Mr. John Clare, junior, on the Government for compensation for Inventions and Designs supplied to the Admiralty in connection with Iron Ship Building and the Construction of Gun Boats,"—(Colonel Dickson,)
  —instead thereof.
  LORD CLARENCE PAGETstated, in reply to the question of the hon. Member for Dungarvan (Mr. Maguire), that the case of Cork came within the order of reference to the Committee now sitting on the subject of dockyards, and would receive fair and full consideration.
  In answer to the question of the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. A. Smith), he said the Government could not undertake to publish the paper of Sir Snow Harris on the School of Naval Architecture. If they were to do so they would have in fairness to publish all the papers which had been written on the same subject, including the very able and interesting one from the pen of the noble Lord the Member for Huntingdon (Lord R. Montagu). The better way would be for Sir Snow Harris to print his essay at his own expense, and send a copy to the hon. Member for Truro. Although it had been determined to establish a School of Naval Architecture in London, the hon. Member wanted the House to rescind its vote, so that naval architects might be educated in the provinces. Now, we had already got good dockyard schools, but the education

  1465
  given in them was not of that high order which naval architects required; and London had been chosen as the site of the new schools, because there eminent lecturers and professors could be obtained with the greatest facility. He was persuaded the public would have reason to be satisfied with the course the Government had taken. The hon. Member had asked what was to become of the youths in the summer when they went round the dockyards to learn their practical duties. They would have a certain allowance per head for their personal expenditure, and whether they got it in London or at the dockyards, would make no difference in the matter of coat. So far as he could ascertain, the School of Naval Architecture would not cost more than £4,000 a year, and, indeed, some thought it would become self-supporting, though he himself was not quite so sanguine as that.
  There was one passage in the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Limerick (Colonel Dickson) with respect to the case of Mr. Clare, in which he cordially concurred—that the House of Commons should not be turned into a court of appeal from the ordinary tribunals. He had heard with great regret the remark of the hon. and gallant Colonel—that the summing up of the Lord Chief Justice was more like the impassioned speech of an advocate, than the calm judicial charge of a Judge. The Solicitor General who was employed in the trial in the Court of Queen's Bench, would be able to give a different version of the summing up; but he might be allowed to say that, in the opinion of all, the Lord Chief Justice was one of the most able and upright Judges who ever adorned the Bench. Another accusation made by the hon. and gallant Gentleman was that nearly all the witnesses were Government officials. Could Sir Charles Fox be considered a Government official? Mr. Samuda was a private shipbuilder, [Colonel DICKSON: He has held Government contracts.] He admitted that Mr. Samuda, like many other private traders, had held Government contracts; but surely nobody would say that an eminent shipbuilder would give evidence contrary to what he conscientiously believed, merely because he occasionally took a Government contract. He could not say at that moment whether Mr. Eady was at the Admiralty when he was represented to be too unwell to attend the trial, but he should think it exceedingly
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  improbable. Did the hon. and gallant Gentleman think the jury had been packed?
  COLONEL DICKSONexplained that nobody could speak in higher terms than he had done of the Chief Justice and the jury who tried the case.
  LORD CLARENCE PAGEThad only quoted the hon. and gallant Member's words, but was glad if they had not been intended to have the meaning he had supposed. He believed that Mr. Clare had had as fair a trial as ever took place in this country. The trial lasted five days, and it was conducted with the greatest patience by the Judge and jury, and the decision was that the Admiralty had not infringed any of Mr. Clare's patents. If the accusations made against the witnesses were founded on fact, the courts were open to Mr. Clare to prosecute them. Having some knowledge of matters connected with the construction of these ships, he (Lord Clarence Paget) had done his best to look into this subject, but he could not for the life of him see that any patent of Mr. Clare's had been infringed in the Warrior, or any other of Her Majesty's ships. That was not the only case of the kind. Mr. Chalmers said that the Admiralty had pirated his invention. It was impossible to state that in some of the details of a ship's construction there might not be some similarity to the inventions of various persons; but, after the decision which a court of law had duly pronounced on, Mr. Clare's claims, he trusted that the House would not now consent to re-open the case.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERALsaid, that he was counsel for the Admiralty in Mr. Clare's case, and he would take upon himself the responsibility, which was shared by the Law Officers of the Crown, in advising the Admiralty to resist the petition, for a claim more unfounded and preposterous, he would venture to say, was never brought into a court of justice. Mr. Clare's, first demand was in respect of an alleged contract with the Admiralty, upon the terms of his having a percentage upon all the ships built, amounting to £200,000. Then he further claimed some £400,000 or £500,000 for a supposed infringement of his patent. The case came on to be tried, and the evidence in support of the claim consisted of about 100 letters written by him to the Admiralty, to which he believed only two replies were sent, the substance of them being this:—"Sir, we have

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  considered your application, and cannot comply with it; and you cannot be employed." There was no pretence, on Mr, Clare's own showing, of there having been any contract. The rest of the case, as to the infringement of the patent, was equally groundless. Mr. Clare never built a ship, and never laid down the lines of one. The supposed patent contained nothing new, and there was no pretence for saying that it had been infringed in the case of the Warrior. The case was tried before the Lord Chief Justice and a special jury. The hon. and gallant Member for Limerick (Colonel Dickson) had said, that the Lord Chief Justice had summed up the case not as a Judge, but as an advocate. That was a serious imputation, which ought not to be made lightly or loosely. He asserted that the imputation was wholly unfounded, and ought never to have been made. The Lord Chief Justice summed up in a perfectly impartial and judicial manner. The jury did not hesitate; they found that Mr. Clare had no case, and no pretence of a case. That an eminent shipbuilder's evidence was not to be trusted because he had once held a Government contract was an imputation that no counsel would venture to make in a court of justice, and which never ought to have been made in that House. No case was ever more fairly tried. A Motion was afterwards made be-fore the full court, and they entirely concurred in the summing up of the Judge. He trusted the House would not re-open the Question, that they would he satisfied with the results of the trial, and not interfere with the action of courts of justice.
  MR. DENMANsaid, he had been appealed to on that subject by Mr. Clare, one of whose counsel he had been at the trial which had been referred to: he had, however, declined to take any part in the present discussion, or to vote on the Question before the House, thinking that to abstain from doing so became a Member who had been professionally engaged in the case. If he were to declare his opinion in Mr. Clare's favour, it might be said that he was speaking as an advocate; and if he gave an opinion against the claim, it might be objected that he had made use of some confidence or trust reposed in him, to the prejudice of the interests of the person by whom he had been engaged as counsel.
  MR. HENNESSYsaid, that whereas the Solicitor General had stated that Mr. Clare received but two letters from the
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  Admiralty, and those only stating that they could not consider his plans, he now held in his hand seven letters from the Board of Admiralty to that gentleman. One of them, dated June 22, 1855, was from the Secretary to the Admiralty, telling Mr. Clare that if he had anything new to suggest, and forwarded it to that office, it would be considered. Mr. Clare accordingly sent in his plans, and a letter describing them. That was surely consistent with the statement they had heard. He fully agreed in what had been said about the high and impartial character of the Lord Chief Justice; but in a passage of his summing up the learned Judge observed—
  "Mr. Clare was evidently a disappointed man. He was disappointed at not having his plans and specifications adopted by the Admiralty. He had impressed upon the Admiralty the great importance of the subject of Iron Shipbuilding, and it was not till some years afterwards that it was taken up."
  When the history of this great change in our naval architecture came to be written, it would have to be said that; Mr. Clare impressed the subject on the Admiralty, but the Admiralty refused to take it up; that they had afterwards adopted his plan, and that Mr. Clare appealed to them in vain. He trusted that Mr. Clare would not appeal to that House in vain. This was no technical question as to the specification. He trusted that the Committee would be granted to Mr. Clare.
  MR. H. BAILLIEsaid, that that discussion only supplied another proof, if an additional proof were wanting, of the great necessity for a change in our patent law, for as matters now stood it seemed almost impossible for the Admiralty to adopt any improvement without some inventor stepping in and claiming a patent right in it. In that case a court of justice had decided in favour of the Admiralty and against Mr. Clare, and the Admiralty had now nothing to do with the question.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he felt bound to state, though with every wish to do justice to this unfortunate man—for he believed that he might speak of him in those terms—that the House would make a great mistake if, after the decision of a court of justice, they would pass this Vote. His hon. and gallant Friend had repeated the allegation that Mr. Clare was the first inventor of armour-plated ships, and that the Warrior was built upon his plans. There never was any allegation more un-

  1469
  founded. It was said that the Board of Admiralty were only willing to listen to men of capital. Now, the fact was, that when the question of armour-plated vessels arose, the Admiralty felt it their duty to call upon the most eminent shipbuilders, both in England and Scotland, and invite them to offer suggestions upon iron-plated ships. He declared that Mr. Clare had nothing to do with the merits of the construction of the Warrior vessel. He regretted that Mr. Clare should think that he was treated with injustice by any Department of the Government. Last year he (Sir John Pakington) was anxious to know whether Mr. Clare had any grounds for so thinking; and as he met him accidentally in the lobby of the House he asked him to withdraw with him. He heard all he had to say, and after he had done so tried to enter into conversation with him but he found it impossible in consequence of the state of excitement in which Mr. Clare was. The hon. and learned Solicitor General who saw Mr. Clare in the court of justice, must have had experience of this excitement. With regard to the proposed School of Naval Architecture, he (Sir John Pakington) might say that he had long had the pleasure of an acquaintance with Sir William Snow Harris, and felt for him a great respect; but feared that that gentleman had fallen into a serious error in his paper, as he seemed to think that this School had originated with the Board of Admiralty. He (Sir John Pakington), while anxious to do full justice to the support which the proposal received from the Admiralty, must say that the first suggestion to found the school came from the Institute of Naval Architects. Perhaps it might be some satisfaction to the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Smith)—after the refusal of the noble Lord to print the paper at the public expense—to state that the most eminent naval architects were of opinion that this arrangement to place the School in the metropolis, in order that they might have the benefit of superior teachers, afforded the best prospect of bringing the experiment to a successful issue.
  Question, "That the words proposed to be loft out stand part of the Question," put, and agreed to.

THE CHANNEL FLEET.—QUESTION
SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he wished to put the Questions to the noble
1470
Lord the Secretary of the Admiralty of which he had given notice. The first Question referred to the present state of the Channel fleet. The information which he had received led him to infer that this fleet was not in the state of efficiency in which it ought to be. He wished to know from the noble Lord, whether he could furnish such information as would remove this impression; and if it was desirable that, under existing circumstances, the Channel fleet should remain for so long a period in the Portland Roads? The Channel fleet returned in the month of March, after a cruise of three months in the Atlantic, and it had not been sent to any arsenal for the purpose of having the necessary repairs effected to place it in a state of efficiency. He had heard many suggestions, and some of them from high quarters, during the debates in both Houses on the Danish Question, that looking to the war now carried on in the North of Europe, it would be desirable that the fleet should be in a condition to be sent off on a short notice to perform any duties which it might be called upon to perform. He therefore thought he was justified in calling attention to the subject. The information he had received was this:—When the Channel fleet came to Portland after the cruise, it wanted provisions and coals; but neither were to be had. At first the Admiral applied for 900 tons of coals, and was told that there were only 50 at hand, and that it would take three weeks to obtain a further supply from Cardiff. A week elapsed before they obtained their provisions; and after a lapse of three weeks only 280 tons of coal had been supplied. He was also informed that it was impossible to carry out the required repairs, owing to the disadvantages of the anchorage at Portland. The fleet was last repaired in December; and as a portion of it was iron clad, it was notorious that these became very foul after a time at sea. They had been out on a cruise in the Atlantic, and it would be remembered they had gone as far as Madeira at a time that it was supposed they would be ordered home. They were then likely to require repairs. The fleet were now at Portland, and might be ordered to foreign service on short notice; but, in the present condition of many of the ships, it would be impossible for them to go until they had been docked for repairs. Until they had been docked, it would be impossible to send them on this service. This would

1471
require a considerable time, for he was sorry to say that the dock accommodation was so limited that they could only go into dock one after another. He did not know whether his noble Friend would be able to contradict the reports he had heard, but he thought the House ought to be informed whether the detention of these ships so long at Portland was consistent with that efficiency which was so essential to the navy. The other Question which he wished to ask was founded on a statement given by the noble Lord in reply to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Tyrone (Mr. Corry) on a former evening. His right hon. Friend drew attention to the unsatisfactory state of the reserves in the home ports, and the noble Lord, with a candour which was more creditable to himself than to the Admiralty, admitted that the reserve fleet was not in a satisfactory condition. He (Sir John Pakington) wished to know how far steps had been taken to remedy this state of things. Was the House to infer from the noble Lord's admission that the Admiralty had determined to neglect the wooden fleet? This was a serious matter. He believed that the time had not yet come when the wooden ships of England could be neglected. At this time they had not sufficient iron armour vessels to carry on a maritime war, and must depend on their wooden ships to protect their commerce and possessions in all parts of the world; it would, then, be a great mistake to allow them to fall into a state of decay. He would be glad to hear that the Admiralty intended to maintain them in a state of efficiency, so that they should be ready for any service they might be called to perform. He would then ask the noble Lord as to the state of the Channel fleet, and the vessels in the home ports.
LORD CLARENCE PAGETsaid, he wished the right hon. Baronet had put his Question upon the paper in more specific terms, as he was not prepared to state offhand what quantity of coals or provisions would be required to be taken on board the ships forming the Channel squadron. All he could say was that the squadron was ordered to be ready for sea, fully provided with coals and stores, by the 15th of the present month. It was known that probably some of the ships might be sent north, and by the 15th of April it was expected the ice would be broken up in the Baltic. Those ships were all ready, but how long they had been engaged in
1472
taking on board provisions and coals he could not say, but he believed there had been no delay, although the question of the right hon. Baronet would induce him to make closer inquiries into that question. With respect to the state of our iron-ships he could not state the last date of docking, but he did not believe that their bottoms could be in such a state as to render them unfit for service. There was no doubt that iron bottomed-ships did require constant docking, and that constituted their chief defect. For that reason the Admiralty were giving their best attention to the subject of providing increased dock accommodation. With respect to our ships in the reserve, he had already stated that they were not in the condition in which he could desire to see them; but he had proposed a large labour vote to enable them to be placed in a better condition. He would, however, remind the right hon. Baronet that, while the reserve during his tenure of office consisted only of four line of-battle ships, three frigates, and three sloops, the reserve at present included three armourplated ships, two line-of-battle ships, three frigates, two corvettes, and three sloops. The reserve, therefore, had not deteriorated. [Sir JOHN PAKINGTON: Are they fit for service?] They are fit for service now; and I hope next year will be in a still more satisfactory state.
MR. CORRYsaid, the noble Lord, in moving the Navy Estimates, had said that it was intended to pay off sixty-four ships in the course of the year, and therefore it would he necessary to have a large labour Vote to enable the Admiralty to replace thorn. That Vote, therefore, would not tend to increase the efficiency of the reserve. The Admiralty ought to place the ships paid off on the steam reserve, and have the ships forming the naval reserve ready for sea whenever their services might be required. One part of the service ought not to be neglected because attention was directed to another. The whole reserve ought to be kept in a state of efficiency. The comparison which the noble Lord had made between the reserve at the present time, and that which existed during the time when the right hon. Baronet the Member for Droitwich was in office, was not exactly correct, as the Government of 1859 had not had the advantage of five years' tenure of office to re-organize the navy. The right hon. Baronet at that time asked for a Vote to increase the

1473
number of artificers in order to bring the reserve up to a proper condition.
Main Question put, and agreed to.

SUPPLY.
SUPPLY considered in Committee.
CAPTAIN TALBOTreminded the noble Lord the Secretary to the Admiralty of his promise not to proceed with the Malta Dock Vote after ten, it being now half-past that hour.
MR. WYKEHAM MARTIN, who had a notice on the paper concerning the spinning machinery at Chatham, expressed a hope that the Government would fix another night for that Vote, when it could come on early. He had been about twelve hours in the House that day, and he would possibly be as long to morrow, so that if the question came on late at night he would be almost physically incapable of making his Motion.
LORD CLARENCE PAGETagreed to postpone the Estimates till Monday.
SIR JOHN PAKINGTONhoped the Malta Dock Vote would be fixed for a night when Members could know with some certainty that it would come on.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, his noble Friend was quite ready to proceed with it at once. It was the preliminary discussions which took up so much time.
LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, it would be a breach of faith to go on with the Vote now, as many Members had left the House under the impression that it would not come on.
SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, the Navy Estimates would be placed first on the paper for Monday, and he hoped no Motions would be interposed to prevent them from going into Committee at once.
House resumed. Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

GOVERNMENT ANNUITIES BILL.

  [BILL 11.] NOMINATION OF COMMITTEE.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERmoved that the following Members be Members of the Select Committee on the Government Annuities Bill:—
  "The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, Mr. SOTHERON ESTCOURT, Mr. MILNER GIBSON, Mr. HENLEY, Sir MINTO FARQUHAR, Sir STAFFORD NORTHCOTE, Mr. HORSFALL, Mr. GOSCHEN, Mr. CHARLES TURNER, Mr. HERBERT, Mr. HUBBARD, Mr. HENRY B. SHERIDAN, Mr. AYRTON, Mr. HODGKINSON, and Mr. PAGET.
  Motion agreed to.
  SIR MINTO FARQUHARsaid, it was rather remarkable that a Bill of such importance should be sent to a Committee and at the same time that an objection should be made to taking any evidence. He always understood that when a measure was sent to a Committee it was for them to decide whether they would hear evidence. His right hon. Friend supposed that he wished that witnesses should be called for the express purpose of defeating the Bill. That was not his object. What he wanted was that the Bill should be thoroughly investigated, that the Committee should see how the machinery was to be worked, and above all should hear some persons connected with Friendly Societies, so as to ascertain why they objected to the Bill, where the shoe pinched them, and how they carried on the sort of business which would be transacted by the Government if the Bill passed. He had not the least intention of entering into the insolvency or solvency of these societies, because the inquiry then would be interminable, and the Bill would, as his right hon. Friend said, be "hung up." All he desired was, that the Committee should understand thoroughly the nature of the Bill, and in order that they might do this he now begged to move that they should have power to send for persons, papers, and records.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records."—(Sir Minto Farquhar.)
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he did not desire to impute anything to the hon. Baronet that he had disclaimed, but the intention and the effect of his Motion were two different things; she effect—though he was sure he did not intend it—would be to put off the passing of the Bill for the present Session. His hon. Friend wanted the House to understand the machinery of the Bill and the bearing of its clauses, and to examine the promoters of the Bill as to its probable effect upon Friendly Societies. But his hon. Friend was mistaken in supposing that they could examine the bearing of the Bill and its effect upon Friendly Societies without involving these consequences. The societies would be entitled to show whatever injury might result to them from the measure, and in that way it would be impossible to escape examining how far their own rules and constitution were sound. But there was another broad distinction

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  between a Committee of that kind and such a Committee as was suggested by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wiltshire (Mr. Sotheron Estcourt), to which the Government had acceded. The hon. Gentleman wanted to examine the real promoters of the Bill. But who were the real promoters? The Government. Sir Alexander Spearman and Mr. Scudamore were the persons with whom they took counsel, but they were not the promoters of the Bill. They might as well ask for such a Committee on Monday next to inquire into the Taxes Bill and examine Sir Thomas Free-mantle. Sir Alexander Spearman and Mr. Scudamore were not the promoters of this Bill, but the assistants of the Government, and it would be an injustice to them and a flinching from responsibility by the Government, if they allowed the Bill to depend upon the examination and cross-examination of these witnesses. The meaning of such a Committee as he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was prepared to send the Bill to was simply this—to enable the Members of it to have more free and familiar communication with the responsible author of the Bill, of cross-examining him more fully, and ascertaining more precisely with what views the Government proposed it than could be done in that House. The House would see there was the greatest difference between a Committee of that kind and a Committee taking general evidence. Let it be shown that a great deal of injury would result to Friendly Societies, and did his hon. Friend mean to say that if independent Assurance Societies came forward and alleged that they also were liable to be injured by the Bill they could be excluded? His hon. Friend would see it would be totally impossible to draw the line which he supposed. He quite agreed with his hon. Friend that the Bill ought to be thoroughly understood. But there were three securities for that. First, there was the responsibility of the Government; secondly, bringing to bear all the intelligence and knowledge of the Select Committee upon it, and afterwards subjecting it to a Committee of that House; and thirdly, and most important of all, giving time to the country to consider it fully after it had come from the Select Committee and had passed the Committee of the Whole House. His hon. Friend might say it was an invidious thing not to hear witnesses — it was like shutting out the daylight. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was responsible for the Bill, in a
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  sense in which no other Member of the Government was responsible, and did his hon. Friend think it would be possible for him, with all the other duties which he had to perform, to go into such an inquiry as his hon. Friend proposed? He could not do it unless he resigned his office for the purpose. He wished it to be distinctly understood that the Motion of his hon. Friend came simply to this—whether the Bill was to be allowed to go forward during the present Session. If his hon. Friend thought fit to propose such a Motion, it was open to him to do so; but it was his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) duty to represent that the effect of such an inquiry as that recommended by the hon. Gentleman, would be to block up the Bill in Committee upstairs until a period when it would be totally impossible to give the country time to consider it so that it might be passed this Session. This Bill had been largely, carefully, and minutely considered in its principle, and the effect had been, that all those who had acted spontaneously upon their own judgment had largely petitioned in its favour. That very day he had received a statement from the whole body of the Life Assurance Societies of Scotland, in which they expressed their approval of the Bill. They thought Parliament must deal with the question how far Government was capable of interfering in a matter of this kind; but if Government could properly undertake it, they believed it would be beneficial to the country. He objected to examining Sir Alexander Spearman and Mr. Scudamore, but they might examine himself. It was impossible to have a Bill of that kind, involving important financial results, without having a responsible Minister of the Crown ready to answer for it. He had already suggested what would be the best possible mode of proceeding—namely, to have the machinery of the Bill, such as it was, laid upon the table of both Houses, subject to be interrupted by an Address from either House, and until it had lain there for a sufficient time it would be totally inoperative. But as for inquiring into the position of other societies, that, though his hon. Friend did not intend it, was merely losing time, and would lead to the indefinite postponement of the Bill.
  MR. SOTHERON ESTCOURTsaid, he imagined that this Committee would not be bound by any other rules than those which regulated the proceedings of every other Committee. It would be better to

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  go upstairs to enter upon the clauses, and then, if they required evidence on any point, it would be competent for them to come to the House, and through their Chairman to propose a Resolution similar to that of his hon. Friend, He was able to speak with some authority on this point, because he was Chairman of a Committee to which was referred a Bill in 1850 on this very subject of Friendly Societies, and which was the first instance of a Committee upon a Bill which obtained leave of the House to take evidence. When the Committee entered upon the first clause, it was evident they required further information, He asked the late Speaker whether it was competent to obtain the means of gaining that information on Motion. The matter was considered, and leave was given by the House. His hon. Friend (Sir Mirito Farquhar) had, he believed, persevered with his Motion, because something fell from the Chancellor of the Exchequer which implied an understanding that the Committee should abstain from exercising the power enjoyed by all other Committees, and that there was to be something like a promise or engagement that the Committee should not call for evidence. His hon. Friend had, therefore, very properly raised this question. The House had thought proper to appoint this Committee, and, no doubt, intrusted it with the same independence and control over its proceedings as was possessed by other Select Committees, and with that understanding he should recommend his hon. Friend to withdraw his Motion. On the other hand, he hoped he would not do so unless they had a distinct understanding that when they got into Committee, and it should be the pleasure of the Committee to require evidence, nothing that had hitherto passed, or which should pass, would prevent the Chairman from coming down and making the same Motion. The Committee would have to inquire into three points—first, whether it would be possible by any machinery to carry out the right hon. Gentleman's intentions in proposing this Bill; secondly, in what manner that machinery would be likely to affect similar institutions; and thirdly, as to the risk that the Government would run in undertaking the operations sketched out by the Bill. If the right hon. Gentleman had made up his mind that the Committee should not take evidence, he hoped he would say so distinctly, because in that case it would be useless to go into Committee at all. For himself, he could
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  say he was honestly determined to facilitate the passing of the Bill, if he had fair means of satisfying himself on these three points. Suppose they went into Committee, and he wished to know Mr. Tidd Pratt's opinion on these three points, if the Committee were of opinion that his wish was unreasonable, they would negative the Motion, and he should submit. But suppose the Committee agreed with him — were they to be stopped by the Chancellor of the Exchequer telling them he had only allowed the Committee to be appointed on the understanding that they should not take evidence? The character of the Gentlemen named upon the Committee ought to go for something, He had served on many Committees, and he had never heard that a desire to hear evidence implied any degradation or disparagement of the Member who moved for the Committee He trusted that his hon. Friend would withdraw his Motion, on the understanding that the determination to hear or not to hear evidence was to rest with the Committee and nowhere else.
  MR. THOMSON HANKEYsaid, he hoped the Motion would not be withdrawn except on the distinct understanding to the effect stated by the last speaker. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said he took upon himself the responsibility of the Bill, and suggested that he alone should be examined. This was not satisfactory. The Bill consisted of two clauses, one of which was accepted, the other objected to. An investigation of the subject was asked for; but were the Committee to investigate with their hands tied, and if we are told that they were not to examine into the only point which was important, he thought there ought not to have a been Select Committee at all. The only question was whether the business was to be undertaken by an already overworked Department of the Government — the Post Office. He did not object to giving the facilities for insurance to the poor people, but he doubted whether Life Assurance was what they wanted. What they wanted was security, not for a provision in case of death, but in case of sickness. A Select Committee had been appointed to examine into the question—let them examine whether the provisions of the Bill were expedient, but unless the Committee had full power to call witnesses they would never have the question satisfactorily answered.
  SIR MINTO FARQUHARwas willing to withdraw his Motion, but only on the

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  distinct understanding that the Committee should have full independence, and be able to call for any evidence they might want.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he was willing to afford every information that should be given with respect to the clauses, and he thought that information might be afforded by those who assisted the responsible Ministers; but that was altogether different from taking general evidence on the principle and bearing of the Bill. He entirely must decline to hold out any expectations that the Government would be parties to examining into the effect of this Bill on Friendly Societies.
  MR. AYRTONobserved, that as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not given the pledge that he had been asked to give —namely, that the Committee should go upstairs unfettered, to decide for themselves whether they should have evidence or not, it was obvious that there must be some concealed meaning in his refusal to consent to that arrangement. It was inconsistent with usage, and with the respect due to the House, to say that a Committee on a Bill should not receive any information which they might think it necessary to ask for.
  MR. ROEBUCKthought, that as the Committee would have power to direct their Chairman to come down and ask for leave to take evidence, it was merely fighting with a shadow to contend for the permission of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the examination of witnesses.
  LORD JOHN MANNERSunderstood the declaration of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to mean this — that if the Committee thought they ought to call witnesses, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with the force of the Government at his back, would oppose the Motion. He understood that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not unwilling that they should have information, but that he himself was willing to give all the information that could be required. If he (Lord John Manners) were a Member of the Committee, he should say, "We have heard sufficient information from that quarter; we desire to hear other statements." If the House received no further explanations of a more satisfactory character, he saw no other course than to support the Motion of his hon. Friend.
  MR. MILNER GIBSONwould remind
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  the House that to take independent evidence on the whole merits of the question, and on the bearing of the Bill on Friendly Societies, would be quite a different thing from receiving information on the clauses. An inquiry such as the former, in the case of a Bill, the principle of which had been affirmed by a second reading, would be against all precedent, and would be fatal to the Bill.
  MR. WHITESIDEsaid, the Chancellor of the Exchequer seemed to say, "I will answer questions as I think fit, and if you are not satisfied you must be an incorrigible Committee; but if you ask for independent evidence, then your proposal is so unparliamentary that we cannot hold out any hope of its being adopted." Why should he not have said at once, "You shall only have such evidence as I like on the clauses of the Bill?"
  MR. HUSSEY VIVIANwas sure that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had no fear for the Bill on its merits. What he feared, and properly feared, was that a general inquiry into the principle and bearings of the Bill, and an examination of the officers of the various Friendly Societies, would consume so much time that the measure would be shelved.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: The question has really been put upon its true footing, and I wish the House to understand what it is we are going to vote on. It is whether this Bill shall be thrown over entirely. ["No!" "Cheers!"] That this was the real effect of the Motion must be evident to any one who reflects for an instant—because what is the object of the proposed inquiry? The Chancellor of the Exchequer has explained that it necessarily involves our going into the affairs of all those who wish to prevent the Bill passing into law. ["No!" "Hear, hear!"] It would be much more fair to vote that the Bill should be read this day six months, and the effect would be the same. ["No!" "Hear, hear!"] Let the House understand that what is now proposed is not to obtain information. It is not Parliamentary to impute motives, but let me say that the Motion, if carried, would render it perfectly impossible for the Bill to pass this Session.
  SIR WILLIAM JOLLIFFEsaid, the House had before it two conflicting statements. At one side it was urged that the Motion, if carried, would defeat the mea-

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  sure; at the other they had the positive declaration of Gentlemen supporting it that they entertained no such intention. Between two interpretations so diametrically opposed the House must he left to decide, He confessed himself unable to see the purpose of the Committee if they were to be bound by every statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, however dark, and were to make no attempts at elucidation.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERexplained that so far from desiring that his voice should be the only voice to be heard before the Committee, he had expressly intimated that they might ask for further information; but he said that the responsibility for the measure must rest with the Government and the Government only. He desired to give the Committee every information, and for that purpose would lay before them explanations and conversations of the official advisers of the Government.
  MR. BUCHANANthought the Committee ought to be placed in a position to express some opinion, and not merely to return the Bill as sent to them.
  Question put.
  The House divided: — Ayes 104; Noes 127: Majority 23.
  Five to be the quorum.

SEAT OF UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE.

  NOMINATION OF COMMITTEE.
  On Motion of Sir George Grey, Select Committee on Seat of Under Secretary of State nominated:—
  SIR GEORGE GREY, Mr. DISRAELI, Mr. WALPOLE, Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL, Sir HUGH CAIRNS, The LORD ADVOCATE, Mr. GATHORNE HARDY, Mr, ATTORNEY GENERAL for IRELAND, Sir WILLIAM HEATHCOTE, Mr. MASSEY, Lord ROBERT CECIL, Mr. BRIGHT, Mr. Serjeant KINGLAKE, Mr. HUNT, and Mr. DODSON:—Power to send for persons. papers, and records; Five to be the quorum.

LAW LIFE SOCIETY.—RETURN MOVED FOR.
MR. GREGORYmoved for a Return of all Civil Bill Ejectments entered at the suit of the Law Life Society before the Chairman of Quarter Sessions of the County of Mayo and the county of Galway, from Hilary Quarter Sessions, 1850, up to the present time, distinguishing the ejectments of each year.
MR. HODGKINSONsaid, that as a director of this Society, he should offer no opposition to any inquiry into the management of its property in Ireland; but as the Society did not acquire the property in question till 1852, he suggested that that date should be substituted for 1850; and as their Civil Bill ejectments were almost without exception merely proceedings for the recovery of rent, and were not followed by evictions, he proposed that the Return should also show the number of evictions which had taken place upon these ejectments.
MR. GREGORYdisclaimed any intention to take an unfair advantage of this Society, and would accept the hon. Member's first Amendment; but he could not assent to the second, because there were no means of ascertaining how many evictions had taken place.
Motion amended, and agreed to.
Return ordered,
"Of all Civil Bill Ejectments entered at the suit of the Law Life Society before the Chairman of Quarter Sessions of the county of Mayo and the county of Galway, from Hilary Quarter Sessions 1852, up to the present time, distinguishing the ejectments of each year."—(Mr. Gregory.)

BANKRUPTCY ACT.—NOMINATION OF COMMITTEE.
MR. MOFFATT, Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL, Mr. GEORGE CARR GLYN, Mr. MURRAY, Mr. MALINS, Mr. WEGUELIN, Mr. HUBBARD, Mr. GATHORNE HARDY, Mr. DUNLOP, Mr. LOWE, and Mr. HASSARD, nominated Members of the Select Committee on the Bankruptcy Act.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Lord Advocate be one other Member of the said Committee."
Debate arising,
Debate adjourned till this day.

BANKRUPTCY ACT.—NOMINATION OF COMMITTEE.

  NOMINATION OF COMMITTEE.
  Select Committee on Judgments, &c., Law Amendment Bill nominated:—
  MR. HADFIELD, Mr. ATTORNEY GENERAL, Mr. SELWYN, Mr. HANKEY, Mr. Alderman SALOMONS, Mr. HENLEY, Mr. M'MAHON, Mr. JOHN JOSEPH POWELL, Mr. LOCKE KING, Mr. JOSEPH EWART, Mr. HUMBERSTON, Mr. HODGKINSON, Mr. STEEL, Mr. MURRAY, and Mr. REMINGTON MILLS:—Power to send for persona, papers, and records; Five to be the quorum.
  House adjourned at one o'clock.