Commons Sitting of 27 July 1863

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILL—Third Reading—Exhibition Medals (Lords) [Bill 261].
NAVY—PORTSMOUTH DOCKYARD.

  QUESTION.
  MR. CORRYsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty, with reference to his Statement, to the effect, that if it had not been found at the eleventh hour that it was necessary to pass a private Act of Parliament to enable the Admiralty to commence the work, a sum would have been proposed in the Navy Estimates for the construction of a large basin at Portsmouth; whether the necessary measures for obtaining such an Act of Parliament will be adopted during the Recess; and whether provision will be made towards the construction of the basin in next year's Estimates; also whether, in that case, there would be any objection to referring the detailed plan to a Select Committee, as was done by the Admiralty in 1861, in respect of the proposed extension of Chatham Dockyard.
  LORD CLARENCE PAGET, in reply, said it would be the duty of the Admiralty during the Recess to prepare a Private Bill with a view to enable them to construct a basin at Portsmouth; and he would introduce a sum into the Navy Estimates for the accomplishment of that undertaking. He might further state that it was his intention to move, on the reassembling of Parliament, for a Select Committee to inquire into the question of the basin and docks at Portsmouth.

RE-MARRIAGES OF DISSENTERS.

  QUESTION.
  SIR MORTON PETOsaid, he would beg to ask Her Majesty's Government Whether they had heard of the re-marriage of a Mr. and Mrs. Hulin by the Rev. Horatio Walmesley, Vicar of St. Briavels Gloucestershire, after they had been previously married in a Dissenting Chapel, and on which re-marriage the Vicar entered the parties in his register book as bachelor and spinster, knowing of the previous marriage; and whether Her Majesty's Government will prosecute the Vicar for making such entries under the Statute 76 George IV., s. 29?
  MR. BRUCE, in reply, said, he did not think that the conduct of the Vicar in question could properly be made the subject of a prosecution for penalties under the Statute. The first marriage was either a valid on or it was not. If it was a valid marriage, all that was done afterwards was simply super-
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  fluous and null, and could not be made the subject of a prosecution. If the marriage was invalid, then everything which subsequently happened was regularly done. No offence had been committed against the Law, though there might have been an offence against good taste and good feeling.

THE NAUTICAL SCHOOL AT GREENWICH—QUESTION.
SIR MORTON PETOsaid, he wished to ask the Civil Lord of the Admiralty, Whether any decision has yet been come to by the Admiralty with respect to the Building for the Nautical School at Greenwich, and whether the objects aimed at cannot be gained without incurring so large an outlay for additional Buildings as contemplated?
MR. STANSFELDsaid, before answering the Question of his hon. Friend, he desired to take that opportunity of making a statement with reference to a letter of Admiral Codrington, which had not been included in the Malta papers recently laid on the table of the House. His noble Friend the Secretary to the Admiralty had been blamed for omitting to print that letter. What he wished to say was, that the blame of the omission, whatever it might be, ought to rest upon his shoulders, and not upon those of his noble Friend. He could assure the House that it was an entirely accidental omission, and the letter would be printed without further delay. He had to thank his hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury for giving him an opportunity of stating the conclusions at which the Board of Admiralty had arrived on a question which included some little difficulty, and which had been accompanied by some difference of opinion among the authorities of Greenwich Hospital. Most hon. Members would be aware of the nature of the buildings of the school at Greenwich Hospital; there was in the centre a square block occupied by the masters and pupil teachers. That block was flanked by open colonnades, from the ends of which the old east and west wings returned towards the main building of the Hospital. A few years ago it was thought that the amount of class-room accommodation in the old wings, and the amount of breathing space in the dormitories, were not enough for the requirements of modern medical science, and there was a proposal for an addition to the buildings. A new west

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wing was erected, and the idea was entertained of following it up by a corresponding new east wing at the other side of the ground. The cost of erecting the new west wing, inclusive of fencing and laying out the grounds, had been £22,000, and the plan for the new east wing, including the raising of the roofs of the old wing, would have led to an expenditure of £30,000; and that, too, without accommodating one additional boy beyond the eight hundred who were in the institution at present. When the plans came to be examined, it was found, that even with this large additional outlay, there were certain architectural defects which would still remain. The configuration of of the ground was such that the new east wing would not be absolutely parallel with the west wing, and would be of less lateral dimensions. The Board of Admiralty took into consideration the question of diverting a public roadway, with the view of making the proposed east wing correspond in dimensions and position with the new west wing; but an examination of the estimates showed that the extra cost involved in the diversion of this road, and in the purchase of buildings to be pulled down, would be £30,000. It thus appeared, that having already expended £20,000 upon improvements, the Board would have to lay out a further sum of £60,000 for a complete scheme, without accommodating one more boy in the school. This was the state of the question when he had the honour of joining the Board; and he must say, especially with reference to the fact that they were then intending and hoping to burden the funds of Greenwich Hospital with an increased annual outlay for purposes strictly within the object of the original charters, that it appeared to him necessary and advisable to reconsider the whole question, with a view to ascertain whether they might not be able to accomplish all essential objects at a much less cost. The difficulty was this:—It was supposed necessary, in accordance with modern, and, no doubt, correct notions, that each boy should have six hundred cubic feet of breathing space. He did not conceive that there was anything cabalistic in the number 600, and that a few cubic feet more or less would not be of much matter. It appeared to him that the question of cubic feet for Breathing space ought to be considered, not simply by itself, but in connection with some other elements; and that the ventilation of the rooms and the
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position of the building ought also to be taken into account. The designs and estimates were therefore sent back to Greenwich Hospital for reconsideration, and the result had been a plan which they were prepared to carry out experimentally, and not wholly at once, and which he believed Would accomplish all essential purposes, at a cost, not of £30,000, but of £3,000 or £4,000. They were of opinion that by taking away the ceilings of the old dormitories and providing an open passage for air between the roof and the ceiling they could procure an average breathing space of 570 cubic feet for each boy. There was also a large room, which now served as a chapel, and which they proposed to convert into a class-room; the boys being taken for Divine service to the Chapel of the Hospital. The expense of raising the ceiling of the east wing would in the first instance be £750. A register would be kept of the temperature of the wing where the alteration was made, and next year he would be able to report whether or not the experiment had been successful. If it failed, it would at any rate have cost less than £1,000; and if it answered the expectations entertained of it, it would be the means of a great saving to the funds of the Hospital.

ORDER OF ST. MICHAEL AND ST. GEORGE.—QUESTION.
LORD ERNEST BRUCEsaid, he wished to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether, in the event of the protection of Great Britain being withdrawn from the Ionian Isles, and the Septinsular Republic being joined to the kingdom of Greece, Her Majesty the Queen of Great Britain, as Sovereign of the Most Distinguished Order of St. Michael and St. George, instituted by Letters Patent dated the 27th April 1818, "for natives of the Ionian Isles or the Island of Malta, and for British subjects holding high and confidential employment in the service of the Crown," will continue to retain, as heretofore, the sole power of conferring that Order on such persons as Her Majesty may think proper?
MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE, in reply, said Her Majesty would certainly continue to retain, as heretofore, the sole power of conferring the Order of St. Michael and St. George on such persons as Her Majesty might deem proper, and that power would therefore not be transferred to the Kingdom of Greece with the

1469
Ionian Islands. No doubt, when the Protectorate ceased, it would be necessary to consider what change in the statutes should be made in regard to this Order.

PAROCHIAL ASSESSMENTS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. PUGHsaid, he would beg to ask the President of the Poor Law Board, Whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce, in the next Session of Parliament, any Bill with the view of giving further instructions to the Parochial Assessment Committees, in their endeavours to arrive at uniformity and correctness of assessment?
  MR. C. P. VILLIERSreplied, that he was not in a position to state what course it would be necessary to adopt in order to procure greater correctness and uniformity in the mode of estimating property for the purpose of rating. He had called for Returns from the Board, and the hon. Member for Bedfordshire (Colonel Gilpin) had obtained an Order for Papers, which would give ample information on the subject. Before next Session he should be in a position to state what Amendments in the Act might be necessary.

COLLECTORS OF TAXES IN CIRENCESTER.—QUESTION.
MR. J. POWELLsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, If it is true that all the Collectors of Taxes for the seven wards of the borough of Cirencester have been summarily dismissed from their offices, and their appointments given to the Clerk of one of the Local Commissioners; and whether there would be any objection to produce the Correspondence with the Board of Inland Revenue on the subject?
MR. PEEL, in reply, said the appointment of these Collectors was made by the District Commissioners, who acted on their own responsibility, and those gentlemen thought that the change would be for the convenience of the borough. The appointments have been confirmed by the Board of Inland Revenue. There was no correspondence on the subject.

THE ROMAN CATHOLIC BURYING-GROUND AT SYDENHAM.

  QUESTION.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the
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  Home Department, Under what circumstances the opening of the Roman Catholic Burying Ground at Sydenham met with his approval and sanction? He put the question at the instance of the relatives of a person who had been very recently buried there, and also of the owner of some adjoining property: he therefore hoped the House would allow him to state the facts upon which it was founded. A Mr. Wells had been buried in this ground, and just recently a relative of Mr. Smee, the well-known accountant of the Bank of England, had also been buried there. On the 16th of this month Mr. Smee made the following statement to the Secretary of the Home Department—He said that he had attended the burial-ground of this relative, and found, that although he was informed that the burial-ground had been sanctioned by the Home Secretary, it had no boundary wall or place of public access. The burial ground belonged to the Oratory at Brompton, to which his relative bad left £30,000. He also stated that he found that the Christian name of Mr. Wells was incorrectly inscribed on a tombstone, the effect of which was to destroy all clue to the deceased. In this particular case, of Mr. Smee's deceased relative, £30,000, all the property of the deceased, went to the superior of the monastery, Father Fafer.
  MR. MONSELL: Order, order!
  MR. SPEAKERsaid, he must remind the hon. Member that in asking a Question he was not at liberty to make a speech.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, to put himself in order, he would move the adjournment of the House; and he thought, that inasmuch as this was a matter concerning the relatives of a person deceased who was buried in this ground, and the owner of adjacent property, he was only doing his duty in bringing the matter before the House. On the 23rd of July Mr. Smee again applied to the Home Secretary, complaining that no notice bad been taken of his former application. He (Mr. Newdegate) was informed by the owner of the adjoining property that he had two years ago suspected that this ground was used for the purposes of burial, but that neither the incumbent nor the collector of rates nor his neighbours were at all aware of the existence of this burial-ground until the last burial took place. It appeared that three burials had been performed, one of a person unknown; no entry in the register bad been made of any of these burials. Father Knox, one of the priests

  1471
  to the Oratory, had stated on inquiry being made that the order for the burial-ground was obtained by the influence of the Duke of Norfolk; but on searching the London Gazette no notice of any order from the Secretary of State could be found. A gentleman in the neighbourhood had informed him that the burial-ground was an open field in 1851. He inquired of the Roman Catholic Bishop when this ground was consecrated by him: the Bishop replied that he remembered consecrating the ground, but not the date. He (Mr. Newdegate) did not wish to express any opinion upon the facts he had brought before the House, but he must say that he thought the persons interested ought to have an answer to their inquiries.
  MR. SPEAKERsaid, the hon. Member had concluded without making any Motion. He must inform the hon. Member that a subject requiring so much explanation would be more appropriate for a Motion than a Question.
  MR. NEWDEGATEthen moved the adjournment of the House.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."
  MR. H. A. BRUCEsaid, in October, 1856, an application was made to the Home Secretary in the usual way to authorize a burial-ground at Sydenham for the priests and lay brothers of the Oratory at Brompton. The Home Secretary directed the usual examination to be made by the Inspector of Burial-grounds, and upon his report the ground was authorized in the ordinary manner. Since that period three burials had taken place in the ground. In consequence of complaints made by the gentleman mentioned by the hon. Member to the Home Secretary that the ground was not properly enclosed, a further investigation was made, and in his report the Inspector said, that the ground being strictly private, no public approach was necessary. In respect to the second question there was an oak paling sufficient to exclude animals, and therefore it might be said to be properly enclosed for the purpose. He bad no knowledge of the other matters referred to, but all he could say was that there was nothing unusual or out of order in the manner in which the ground had been appropriated.
  MR. MONSELLsaid, he had interrupted the hon. Member because he had made imputations of the gravest possible character against Gentlemen to whom no notice had been given, and who were entitled to
  1472
  respect at the hands of the House. He knew what the hon. Member's feelings on these points were, but he thought that he was not justified in the course he was pursuing. In the case of the late Mr. Turnbull, the hon. Gentleman, and he (Mr. Monsell) spoke advisedly, had hounded him to death. ["No, no!"] He had stated that he spoke advisedly; he had made special inquiries on this subject of the medical men who attended him, and he was fully justified in stating that it was owing to the anxiety and misery of mind in consequense of the unjust imputations thrown out against him that Mr. Turnbull was now in his grave. He thought that the hon. Gentleman, though he might war with the living, ought to spare the dead.
  SIR GEORGE BOWYERsaid, he knew, from friends who had been with Mr. Turnbull in his last illness, that that Gentleman had died broken hearted through the unjust imputations cast upon his honour. Before making the accusations which he had brought forward that day, the hon. Member for North Warwickshire ought in fairness to have given notice to the persons concerned. The gentlemen of the Oratory, which by the bye was not a monastic institution, possessed so high a character, were so well known to many Members of that House, and so thoroughly respected, that the imputations which the hon. Member had cast upon them would have no effect whatever.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, he would withdraw his Motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

PROMOTION IN THE MILITIA.

  QUESTION.
  MR. POLLARD-URQUHARTsaid, he wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for War, Whether the Regulations for promotion in the Militia recommended by the Royal Commission of 1859 are to be observed; and whether a gentleman who has held a Commission in a Militia regiment, after he has retired from it, and the vacancy caused by his retirement been filled up, can, under any circumstances, be reinstated in the regiment in a rank superior to that which he formerly held, when there are officers in the regiment competent by age, position, and efficiency for promotion to that rank?
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, in reply, that Lords Lieutenant were di-

  1473
  rected by a circular from the War Office to observe in the promotion of officers of Militia, as a general rule, the principle of seniority. As, however, the Militia was a local force, depending very much on the support of persons of influence in the county, the Lords Lieutenant were permitted, on a full statement of the reasons which might have induced them to depart from that rule, if such reasons appeared satisfactory to the Secretary of State, to give promotion on other grounds than that of strict seniority. As the latter part of the question evidently referred to some particular case, if the hon. Gentleman would state in what regiment the promotion had taken place which be alleged bad given dissatisfaction, he would be happy to afford him all the explanation in his power on the subject.

CAPTURE OF HERAT.—QUESTION.
MR. HENRY SEYMOURsaid, he wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, If the Government have received intelligence that Herat has been taken by Dost Mahommed's forces, if the Persians are preparing to retake it, and if Dost Mahommed be still alive?
MR. LAYARDsaid, in reply, that there appeared to be a great deal of mystery hanging over the affairs of Herat. Some time ago the Government received a telegram stating that Herat had been taken, but since then no continuation had been received of that statement. As to the Persians having re-taken Herat, he was not aware of any steps having been adopted by the Persian Government to send troops there for that purpose. With regard to whether Dost Mahommed was dead or alive, very contradictory intelligence had been received on that point.

PERSIA—TELEGRAPHIC COMMUNICATION.—QUESTION.
COLONEL SYKESsaid, he rose to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the reason of the delay in signing the Convention with Persia for the establishment of Telegraphic Communication between Khanikin and Bushire.
MR. LAYARD, in reply, said, there had been no actual delay in signing the Convention, but there was yet an agreement to be come to with respect to the use of the wires There was to be a double set of wires, and there were some questions pending which he hoped would be speedily settled. When the Convention had been signed, it would
1474
be laid on the table. The hon. and gallant Member (Colonel Sykes) had given notice of a Motion for the production of the Correspondence relating to this subject, but he trusted that that Motion would be postponed for the present.

CLONMEL LUNATIC ASYLUM.

  QUESTION.
  MR. BLAKEsaid, he would beg to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether it is intended, in filling up the vacancy of Assistant Resident Medical Manager of the Clonmel Auxiliary District Lunatic Asylum, to appoint a gentleman who has bad some previous practical experience in the treatment of insanity?
  SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, in reply, that Dr. Edmonstone had been appointed to the vacancy by the Lord Lieutenant. Dr. Edmonstone was a physician of some practice in the town of Carrick-on-Suir, and in the country generally; and as he would be under the able superintendence of the experienced head of the parent Asylum, there could be no doubt he would be found fully competent for his duties.

ROAD BETWEEN BAYSWATER AND KENSINGTON.—QUESTION.
LORD ROBERT CECILsaid, he rose to ask the First Commissioner of Works, If he has given attention to the prayer of a Petition from the Inhabitants of Bayswater and Kensington?
MR. COWPERreplied, that when he first proposed that the House should vote the expenses of establishing a communication between Bayswater and Kensington Gore, he suggested a new road, which was to be so separated from the Park that it could be opened at night. That arrangement would have involved considerable expense, and ultimately a more economical plan was adopted, by which existing roads were used. The plan answered very well in several respects, but it bad the disadvantage, that if the road were used at night, access would be given to the whole of Hyde Park. If the request of the Petitioners were adopted, and the gates were to be open after ten o'clock at night, he could not consent that they should be opened to rich persons and carriages, while the poor people on foot were excluded; and if they were open to all, consequences, in a police point of view, might arise which might be highly objectionable. There was every reason to suppose, that if the gates were thrown open during the dark

1475
nights, the park would become a nest of evil-disposed and disorderly persons. It was quite impossible that the three-hundred acres could be properly watched, and to light them would be out of the question. Even at the present moment, while the gates were carefully closed between ten at night and five in the morning, there were scenes occurring which called for the constant vigilance of the police.

INDIAN PRIZE MONEY.—QUESTION.
MR. SEYMOUR FITZGERALDsaid, he wished to put a Question to the right hon. Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) in reference to the distribution of Indian Prize Money. The subject had been, a few days ago, brought under the notice of the Government by his hon. Friend the Member for Stamford (Sir Stafford Northcote), who then asked whether the Government considered that the Prize Money in question should be distributed exclusively amongst Sir George Whitlock's force, or whether it belonged to the Army of India generally. The noble Lord at the head of the Government, in reply to his hon. Friend, stated that the Papers relating to the Prize Money in question should be laid on the table of the House immediately, and that no decision would be come to by the Government until the House had had full opportunity of expressing an opinion on the subject. To the surprise, however, of the agents of Sir George Whitlock's Force, papers were forwarded to them conveying the intelligence that the decision of the Government had been come to in the matter, and the money was lying in the hands of the Treasury for distribution. As he was quite sure the noble Lord did not intend to depart from the assurance which he had given the House on the subject, he wished to ask, What course the Government intend to take in reference to this matter, and whether the House, notwithstanding what has been done by the Treasury, will have a full opportunity of considering the question, and expressing its opinion upon it before the final distribution of the Prize Money?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, in reply, that the Papers relating to the Prize Money referred to, which were just laid upon the table, would clearly show what had taken place. It was quite true that his noble Friend at the head of the Government had given
1476
an assurance that the matter would remain without prejudice until the House had an opportunity of considering those Papers. He did not, however, think, as far as his recollection served, that his noble Friend had said that the decision of the Treasury should be kept in suspense, because so far as the judgment of the Treasury was concerned, that was known and avowed when the question was first brought before the House. The pledge given by his noble Friend was that the Papers on the subject would be laid before the House of Commons before the decision of the Treasury was acted upon, so as to give that House the opportunity of intercepting the proposed distribution, if it thought proper to do so. It was quite true that the decision of the Treasury had been made known to the parties concerned by an official letter, but in addition to that communication another letter had been transmitted to the same parties, informing them of what had subsequently taken place in the House, and intimating that the arrangement referred to in the former letter should remain in abeyance until the final decision of the House was taken upon the matter.

ATTEMPTED ASSASSINATION OF MR. GORE JONES.—QUESTION.
MR. BLAKEsaid, he wished to put a Question to Mr. Attorney General for Ireland. It was stated in a paragraph which appeared in some of the Irish newspapers that Hayes, the man who has been put upon his trial at the Tipperary Assizes on the charge of having fired at Mr. Gore Jones, was induced to plead guilty by reason of being kept without food for a considerable time. In a Memorial presented to the Judge on behalf of Hayes, which was signed by fifteen respectable persons, it was stated that every inducement had been held out to Hayes to confess his guilt—that if he did so, he would be sent out of the country and provided for—that his family would be taken care of. In addition to those offers, the man was deprived of his usual quantity of food in order to induce him to plead guilty. Notwithstanding he had maintained his innocence for a considerable time, Hayes was at length induced by the pressure that was thus put upon him to withdraw his plea of not guilty, and to plead guilty to the charge. He (Mr. Blake) therefore wished to ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman whether there is any truth in those statements?
MR. O'HAGANsaid, he must complain of so grave a Question being asked without any previous notice being given. All he knew of the case was this. Two men had been charged upon information and otherwise with having fired at Mr. Gore Jones. They were brought before the magistrates, end committed for trial. At the last Assizes one of them was tried, but in consequence of the jury being unable to come to any decision upon the matter he was discharged. As to the other prisoner, it was impossible for him (Mr. O'Hagan) to reply to the statement referred to by the hon. Member without further information on the matter. He did not think that such a grave question as that raised by the hon. Member should be brought before the House upon no other foundation than a paragraph in a newspaper. It would be his duty as well as inclination to investigate the matter.
Mr. BLAKEsaid, he wished to know whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman would answer the Question if it were repeated to-morrow.
MR. O'HAGANsaid, he would not undertake to do so.

EXHIBITION MEDALS BILL—(Lords.)

  [BILL 261.] THIRD READING.
  Order for Third Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
  MR. AYRTONsaid, that before they proceeded further with the measure before them, he wished to call the attention of the House to the manner in which it had been introduced, and also to the provisions of the Bill itself. The Bill was brought from the other House on the 23rd inst. At one o'clock in the morning of the 24th, it was read a first time, and at ten o'clock in the morning of that day it was placed for the first time in the hands of hon. Members. At the same time they received the usual record of the proceedings of the House, which informed them that it was to be an Order of the Day, and to be read a second time at twelve o'clock. The notice paper as to their proceedings contained no further intimation, and it could not, therefore, have been supposed that the Government intended to go further than read the Bill a second time; but at twelve o'clock they not only read the Bill a second time, but moved that it be committed, and then proceeded to consider it
  1478
  in Committee, had the Bill reported and ordered to be read a third time that day, before its nature or provisions could be properly considered. Expedition might be necessary in regard to the Bill, but it wag a question deserving consideration, whether the Government ought to be allowed to pass a Bill through more stages than those of which notice was given in the usual record. When such an unusual course as that he had described did take place, all those hon. Members who were absent were taken by surprise. He might be told by the noble Lord at the head of the Government as he had been before, that it was the duty of all Members to be in their place; but that proposition he denied as inaccurate in theory and impossible in practice. The duty imposed upon Members was to attend the service of the House whenever the House thought fit to make any order directing them to discharge a particular duty. But the House had established many usages and some Standing Orders for the protection of absent Members, and the object of all was to prevent anything being done by a few Members who were present without notice to those who were absent. If the House did not insist upon those rules being enforced, the greatest inconvenience and wrong would be the consequence. The course that had been pursued in the case of the Bill before them had been such as was calculated to mislead and surprise the House. He, upon looking at the Bill, found it to be open to grave objections, but receiving it only two hours before the House met, and knowing that those objections could not be fully considered upon the second reading, he had not attended, believing that at the next stage an opportunity for pointing out objections would be given. There had really been time to permit of the Committee upon the Bill being taken at an evening sitting, instead of hurrying the Bill through two stages at a morning sitting. It was astonishing how rapidly bad practices grew. A few years since such a Bill could not have been sent up from the other House, or, if it had been sent, it would have been cast aside as an invasion of the privileges of the House of Commons. In order to facilitate the progress of business, that House had, a few years since, decided that Bills of that kind might be received from the other House; but instead of regarding the concession in its true light, the House of Lords seemed disposed to

  1479
  regard it as an abnegation of the rights of the House of Commons, and therefore sent up Bills at a time when it was impossible due consideration could be given to them—thus practically saying that the House of Commons were not to consider them, but to accept the fiat of the House of Lords, and pass them. It had not been the custom of the House of Commons to pass Bills of pains and penalties without consideration, and the Standing Orders contained provisions intended to guard against surprises. Now, however, it would seem to be argued that those rules should be waived, because they had allowed the other House to originate Bills of that kind. But the House had never intended that the provisions to which he referred should be disregarded; and if an opportunity for considering the Bill had been afforded, he believed he could have proved that it ought not to pass in its present shape. The Bill referred to the medals granted by the Commissioners of the Exhibitions of 1851 and 1862; but he would suggest that before the House was asked to pass a Bill of pains and penalties in connection with those medals, it was entitled to receive some information as to the granting of the medals, to have an authentic statement of the conditions upon which they were granted, and the manner in which they were used. But they had no authentic information upon the subject. They were told that the Commissioners were private parties, who were not amenable to that House, and they were therefore in the difficulty of being called upon to legislate without authentic information upon the subject. His opinions, therefore, were necessarily based upon information privately obtained. There was some misapprehension as to the nature of the medals granted by the Commissioners. It was supposed that they were similar to medals granted by the universities to successful competitors who had written essays of superior merit. But what would be thought if a rich undergraduate employed a poor but able author to write an essay for which the undergraduate was awarded a medal! Supposing, too, that a year or two afterwards a collection of prize essays was published, and the poor author among them discovered his essay, would he not be entitled to say that he had gained the medal? Such was in reality the character of the greater number of medals issued to exhibitors. Those medals were granted by the Commissioners to any person who, by
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  dint of expenditure of money, could procure something of excellent quality to add to the show. But the Commissioners never asked who made the articles. [An hon. MEMBER: The medals are given to them as exhibitors.] It was true, the medals were given to the exhibitors of a good article. But what guarantee was there that articles of equal quality would be afterwards produced? The very article for which an exhibitor obtained a medal might have been made by the workmen of another tradesman. Unless it could be shown that the men who obtained the medals obtained them for the things they themselves produced in the fair course of business, and which they intended to produce again, he contended that the issue of these medals was as great a fraud as could possibly be conceived. A man obtaining a medal for an article of excellent quality and then manufacturing an inferior quality, under the cover of the medal, was guilty of a gross Fraud. In France, he believed, a more just view was taken, and a medal was not only given to an exhibitor of an excellent article, but one also to the ingenious and skilful workman by whom it was made. In this country, such was the power of money, that all the talent and industry of the country, had been passed over in the granting of medals in favour of those who had money in their pockets, and the skilful artisan was unnoticed in the award of the medals. If the House was called upon to legislate immediately upon the subject, they ought to pass a law that would not permit an abuse to be made of the medals granted to exhibitors. The first offence against which they ought to provide was that of a man selling goods with the medal mark, but of an inferior description to those for which the medal had been granted, but the Bill contained no provision to suppress the abuse of medals by exhibitors who had obtained them. It was promoted by Great Exhibition medallists, and so no one could be surprised that their peculiar temptation to fraud was not dealt with. Now, the principle acted on by courts of equity was, that no one was entitled to apply there to prevent a fraud being committed by another person if he himself had committed a fraud in the matter in question. Equity laid it down that a man must come before it with clean hands, and that it would not interfere with the rival competition of dishonest persons. But the Bill allowed

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  unlimited latitude for dishonesty on the part of medallists, while it protected them from dishonesty on the part of others. Now, of course, it was wrong to utter falsehoods, but Parliament had thought it right never to attempt to legislate for the suppression of falsehood unless it was uttered for the purposes of fraud. The first clause of the Bill, however, made even a false assertion penal, whether made with a view to fraud or otherwise. It provided, that "if any trader falsely represents that he has obtained a medal or certificate from the Exhibition Commissioners, in respect of any article or process for which a medal or certificate has been awarded by the Commissioners," he was liable on conviction to a penalty of £5 for the first offence, and for the second to a penalty of £20, or—not in default of payment, but as an alternative sentence to be inflicted at the option of the magistrate—to imprisonment for any period not exceeding six months. He wished to call the attention of the House to the words of that clause, which made the offence punishable only if committed by "any trader." He should have supposed, that if falsehood was to be punished at all, it should be punished equally if committed by a trader or a non-trader. But that was not the effect of the Bill; and the result was, that if any trader after dinner, when an Englishman was sometimes disposed to do a little vain boasting, said twice, though without any intention to defraud, that he had obtained a medal or certificate, he was liable to six months' imprisonment. Now, if lying upon that subject was to be a crime, why not extend the punishment to every person who lied? The same punishment was to be inflicted upon any trader who falsely represented (knowing such representation to be false) that any other trader had obtained a medal or certificate from the Exhibition Commissioners. Here, again, a trader might represent, without risk of punishment, that any other person, not being a trader, had got a medal or certificate. A limited company also might boast of having obtained medals with impunity, because the shareholders would not be individual traders. By the third clause, if any trader falsely represented that any article sold or exposed for sale had been made by a person who had obtained a medal or certificate from the Exhibition Commissioners, he should be subject to penalties. That
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  clause was open to this observation, that it did not connect the real maker with the issue of the medal, but allowed a man who had advanced the cash to use the medal, while the real maker could not use it. Another question which occurred to him was, what was to constitute a trader under the Bill? Must the offender be a trader within the Bankruptcy Laws? No definition was supplied on that point, and altogether the Bill in its details was of a most, extravagant and mischievous character. Another proposal was that "in proceedings under this Act it shall not be necessary to prove that any person has sustained damage by the false representations of the defendant," so that punishment would be awarded for a naked falsehood, and it would not be necessary to show that any damage had been sustained by individuals. Why, they might as well punish a man for saying that he had got a medal or a degree at a University. He should have been better satisfied if the Exhibition Commissioners had shown greater regard for the industry, skill, and talent of the artisan class of this country, instead of giving all the rewards and honours to moneyed men who merely showed the goods. The result of the discussions on the Trades Marks Bill had been that they had arrived at a very compendious code of laws to prevent traders from making misrepresentations in connection with the buying and selling of goods. In order that there should be no unfair interference with trade, Parliament had determined that the Trades Marks Bill should lot come into operation till the 31st of December 1863; yet, while that Act was in abeyance, it was sought to cut in with the Exhibition Medals Bill, which was to take effect immediately. If there was a difficulty with respect to these matters now, it arose from the caution and prudence of Parliament in not having put the Trades Marks Act in force when it passed. The language of the legislation in that Act, which was considered word by word, was totally different from that of the Bill before them. Under the Trades Marks Act no trader was to be punished unless his offence had been committed for the purpose of fraud. Either the thing was to be false and fraudulent, or there was to be a specific misrepresentation in buying or selling a commodity. With that Act in abeyance, he submitted it was premature and precipitate to pass any other Act on the subject of mercantile marks. Another evil in the Bill was that there was no time stated within

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  which the information should be made. A man might come in and make the charge after ten years had elapsed from the time of the offence. The Trades Marks Act required that the charge should be made within a short period. The language of the Bill was loose, irregular, and untechnical, and contrary to all the spirit of their legislation; and as he did not think that it should be proceeded with, he begged to move that it he read a second time that day week.
  Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day week."—(Mr. Ayrton.)
  MR. MILNER GIBSONsaid, he was not competent to decide on the nice legal distinctions which had been drawn by the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets as to the precise meaning of the words in the Bill; but he understood the principle and the object of the measure; and as it had come down from the other House, he presumed that the noble and learned Lords who had considered, and who were far more competent to judge of the legal effect of its meaning than himself, were satisfied with the language used in the various clauses. He was therefore prepared to facilitate as far as he could the passage of the Bill through the House of Commons. The object of the Bill was to prevent persons who had not obtained medals at the late Exhibition, and who, perhaps, had not even exhibited their goods there, falsely representing to the world that they had obtained medals and had exhibited, and thus obtaining for themselves an advantage which they would not otherwise possess, to the disadvantage of those who had obtained medals and had been at the expense of exhibiting. In point of fact, it was proposed to enact that after the passing of the Bill persons should be required, instead of telling a falsehood to tell the truth. The second provision for penalties in the case of false representations was in these words:—"falsely represents (knowing such representation to be false) that any other trader has obtained a medal or certificate from the Exhibition Commissioners." His hon. and learned Friend had overlooked the words "knowing such representation to be false." [Mr. AYRTON: No, I did not.] He could not see how any inconvenience was to arise from such a provision, while it was a great injustice that persons who had been at the expense of sending goods to the Exhibition, and had
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  medals awarded to them by the juries, should be deprived of their just claims to public confidence in those goods by others making fraudulent misrepresentations. The Trades Marks Act had nothing to do with the matter. An Exhibition medal was not a trade mark. An attempt was made in the Court of Chancery to obtain an injunction to put a stop to that mode of fraud, but it failed, because an Exhibition medal was held not to be a trade mark. In principle, of course, there was as much dishonesty in the wrongful assumption of the one as of the other, and it was only fair that protection should be given to the holders of medals. As to the passing of the Bill through two stages in one day, that was by no means uncommon at the end of the Session. It would, no doubt, be objectionable if such a course were constantly pursued, but there were exceptions to every rule. Had he known that the House was going to Bit on Saturday, he would have fixed the Committee for that day; but as that was uncertain, and as he was afraid, if he did not get the Bill through two stages at once, it would be lost, he asked the permission of the House to allow him that indulgence, which was granted. That was a course for which there were numerous precedents, and it was not at all necessary to give notice of it; nor was it necessary to suspend the Standing Orders, for there were none. He hoped the House would not be deterred by mere technical difficulties from providing a remedy for a serious wrong which was daily being committed, and authorizing the summary procedure which he believed would most effectually accomplish that object.
  LORD ROBERT CECILsaid, the House had been placed, with regard to this Bill, in a position which was without parallel in his experience, or in that, he believed, of the oldest Member. A Bill had been brought in at the end of the Session, introducing an absolutely new principle into our criminal law, and backing it up by a penalty of remarkable severity. It was proposed for the first time to punish a man with six months' imprisonment for words uttered, without any fraudulent intent, in joke, or in inadvertence, after dinner, in a railway carriage, or in any casual way. That was a matter which certainly deserved the serious consideration of the House; but the Minister in charge of it introduced it without saying much about it, and then gave notice of the second reading, intending to take another stage at the same time,

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  but without having the courtesy to inform hon. Members of his intention. [Mr. MILNER GIBSON: No.] And then, more extraordinary still, when objections were raised on the third reading, the Minister coolly said he was not competent to deal with them.
  MR. MILNER GIBSONexplained, that what he said was, that he would discuss the principle of the expediency of the measure, but that he did not think himself capable of judging the legal effect of the working of the clauses, which had been considered by persons who were competent to judge.
  LORD ROBERT CECILsaid, he wanted to know why none of these competent persons were present to answer objections. The legal effect of the clauses was just the matter in question. He did not blame the right hon. Gentleman, who was no lawyer, but there should have been some lawyer present to defend the Bill. Here they had a Bill totally new in principle, hurried through two stages without notice at the end of the Session, when the Government was unusually strong; and then, when objections were made on the third reading, the responsible Minister said he was incompetent to undertake its defence. Altogether it was a most extraordinary course of proceeding, and it was remarkable that something of stratagem and trick clung to the skirts of everything connected with the Great Exhibition. The present occurrence was a repetition, only in a thinner House, of the same tactics which the Government lately adopted on a more important question. He felt bound to protest against dealing with the criminal law in such a spirit. No doubt the Government might stand upon the strict right; but if they did, it might be possible to pass through a Bill of attainder and order the cutting-off of the Prime Minister's head without notice. He believed that was the first instance that could be adduced of a Minister acting in this way; and if the Government availed themselves of the strict forms of the House, the minority would be justified in turning the same weapon, as far as they could, against them.
  THE LORD MAYOR (Mr. Alderman ROSE)said, there was a general feeling that the Exhibition of 1851 and 1862 had tended to encourage industry and inventions; and the possession of a medal undoubtedly increased the reputation of a manufacturer, It was surely only just and reasonable that, under these circumstances, the holder of a
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  medal should be protected in the enjoyment of his rights, and that any one who fraudulently invaded them should be punished. A monstrous system of fraud prevailed in regard to these medals, which ought to be checked without delay.
  MR. BUTTexpressed his concurrence in the objections urged against the Bill by the hon. and learned Member for the Tower Hamlets. It was proposed, for the first time, to punish a false statement simply because it was false, without the slightest reference to the object for which it was made. The Bill therefore would introduce a new principle into the criminal law of the country, and they ought to beware how they assented to the establishment of a dangerous precedent. He did not think, however, that his right hon. Friend was to blame in the matter, as the object he sought to effect was undoubtedly good.
  COLONEL FRENCHsaid, he wished to ask how it was, that if the Bill were so necessary, no effort had been made to introduce it earlier in the Session. The Bill would not come into operation till the end of the year; and as Parliament would meet again in February, no great harm could arise from delay.
  MR. J. J. POWELLsaid, he had no doubt, that if the Bill were subjected to the opinion of lawyers, faults might be discovered in it; but the object of the Bill was simply to prevent those persons who had not received Exhibition medals from pretending that they had received them, and he did not think that they need be very apprehensive about a new principle being introduced in such a Bill. As the law stood, if a person made a false representation with intent to defraud, he was guilty of a misdemeanour. The Bill did not go that length; it simply made a false representation punishable by summary conviction before a magistrate. Some ludicrous cases had been supposed by previous speakers, but magistrates were men of common sense, and would interpret the Act in a reasonable way. He could not help expressing his surprise that the noble Lord should have thought it necessary to seize that opportunity for making such an attack upon the Government.
  SIR GEORGE BOWYERsaid, the Bill was loosely drawn, but something must be done immediately, and he was inclined to vote for the third reading, provided he had an assurance from the Government that they would introduce an Amendment Bill next Session.
  MR. MILNER GIBSONwas understood to assent.
  Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
  The House divided:—Ayes 62; Noes 15: Majority 47.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read 3°.
  LORD ROBERT CECILsaid, he had risen to ask the hon. and learned Solicitor General, whom he had recently seen in the House, as a competent judge, to tell them what the Bill really meant before they gave their final assent to it; but as the hon. and learned Gentleman had, with extreme judgment, withdrawn, he could only give notice that he would next Session move the adoption of a Standing Order to prevent the surreptitious passing of a Bill through two stages in one day, which had been practised in that instance.
  MR. SPEAKERsaid, he must point out to the noble Lord that the Bill had passed the Second Reading without any opposition. There was no opposition to the Bill at all. It was then put to the House whether or not, under those circumstances, there was any objection to its passing through the next stage. The course pursued, he must say, was by no means unusual, and therefore it could not properly be called irregular.
  LORD ROBERT CECILsaid, he would, by leave, he permitted to observe, as what the right hon. Gentleman had just said might seem to cast censure upon him, that the Bill was circulated only two hours before it was proceeded with.
  Bill passed.

TELEGRAPHS BILL— [BILL 278.]
Lords' Amendments to Commons' Amendments to Lords' Amendments considered:—First Amendment disagreed to:—Subsequent Amendments agreed to:—Committee appointed, "to draw up Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to the Amendment to which this House hath disagreed:"—Mr. MILNER GIBSON, Mr. HUTT, Mr. BRUCE, Sir WILLIAM DUNBAR, and Mr. BRAND:—To withdraw immediately; Three to be the quorum.
BENCHERS' JURISDICTION AND AUTHORITY BILL— [BILL 10.]

  SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  SIR GEORGE BOWYERsaid, he rose to move that the Order for the Second Reading of the Bill be discharged. He had introduced the measure early in the Session, and on several occasions represen-
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  tation had been made to him by the Benchers of the different Inns of Court that the subject would be taken into consideration by them, and that they wished to have full time given them for that purpose before the Bill was further proceeded with. He had acceded to those suggestions, and the result of the various postponements had been that the measure could not be carried further during the Session. Before the Bill was, however, allowed to drop, he wished to remark that public opinion was quite decided that something ought to be done in the matter. The jurisdiction exercised by the Benchers, especially in cases in which they disbarred members of the Bar, or censured them, and also in cases in which they refused to call persons to the Bar, or refused to admit them as students, was not in a form that was satisfactory to the public. It was perfectly idle to say that the tribunal of the Benchers of an Inn of Court was merely a sort of domestic forum. Take the case of their disbarring a man. The man whom they disbarred was deprived of his livelihood, and to a great extent was a ruined man. Again, a censure pronounced by them was a grave matter, and might inflict irreparable injury on a member of the Bar. Then in the case of their refusing to call a student to the Bar, their refusal rendered useless all the expense and trouble devoted to his education, and cast him upon the world to seek a new avocation with a grave slur upon his character. The Benchers, therefore, exercised a jurisdiction which was virtually of a criminal nature, although the penalties they inflicted might be different from those inflicted by a criminal court. A defendant, under the present jurisdiction of the Benchers, had no means of compelling the attendance of witnesses or the production of documents, however essential they might be to his defence. He alluded to the case of the late Mr. Daniel Whittle Harvey, in which the Benchers decided that he was disqualified to become a member of the Bar—a decision which involved his character and prospects for life; but a Select Committee of that House, having investigated the matter, came to an opposite decision, because they had access to a witness who did not appear before the Benchers, and whose evidence entirely vindicated the character of Mr. Harvey. That showed the imperfection of the jurisdiction of the Benchers. Another case had occurred more recently, in which a witness, having got possession of a document, refused to give

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  it up, and a squabble took place, which was only terminated by the intervention of the police. A properly-constituted court would have committed the party for contempt. The hon. Baronet was proceeding to point out other anomalies in the jurisdiction of the Benchers; when—
  Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members not being present,
  House adjourned at Six o'clock.