Commons Sitting of 20 February 1863

MINUTES
. — SELECT COMMITTEE. — On Private Bill Legislation, nominated; On Ordnance, appointed.
Report.— Controverted Elections, Chairmen's Panel.
SUPPLY.—Committee deferred.
RESOLUTIONS is COMMITTEE. — Prince of Wales (Queen's Message) [17th February], reported; London Coal and Wine Duties.
PUBLIC BILLS. — First Reading. — Prince and Princess of Wales' Annuities [Bill 30]; Education of Factory Children [Bill 28]; Bleaching and Dyeing Works Act Amendment [Bill 29]; Barristers (Ireland) [Bill 31]; London Coal and Wine Duties [Bill 27].
Committee. — Births and Deaths Registration (Ireland) [Bill 9].
Report.—Births and Deaths Registration (Ireland) [Bill 9].
Third Reading. — Illegitimate Children (Ireland) [Bill 13]; Drainage of Land (Ireland) [Bill 7].

RESIGNATION OF SIR WILLIAM ARMSTRONG.—QUESTION.
MR. LAIRDsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, Whether he has any objection to lay upon the table of the House a Copy of any Correspondence that has taken place between Her Majesty's Government and Sir William Armstrong as to resigning his appointment; of any Correspondence between Her Majesty's Government, Sir William Armstrong, and the Elswick Ordnance Company as to the termination of the contract between the Government and that firm; and of any agreement or arrangement entered into for the Valuation of Plant, or otherwise, connected with the Elswick Works?
SIR GEORGE LEWIS, in reply, said, he was ready to produce the correspondence with Sir William Armstrong; but, as that with the Elswick Company was not complete, he could not agree to lay it upon the table.

THE IRISH CENSUS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. W. O. GOREsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, When the detailed report of the late Census in Ireland will be printed?
  SIR GEORGE GREYreplied that he had been informed by the Registrar General for Ireland that the first part of the details would be ready to be presented to Parliament in the month of April, and the remainder in the following month.

PUBLIC SUBSCRIPTIONS.

  QUESTION.
  SIR JOHN HAYsaid, he rose to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether he proposes to take any steps to ascertain the wishes of the Subscribers to the Funds which have lately been raised to relieve the sufferers in India, in the Crimea (the Nightingale Fund),
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  the Hartley Colliery Fund, and others, with a view to bestowing the surplus on other sufferers by calamities which were similar in their nature?
  SIR GEORGE GREY, in reply, said, that as these funds had been raised by voluntary contributions for specific purposes, and placed by the subscribers in the hands of Committees or Trustees, it would be obviously improper for the Government even to appear to assume a right to deal with them. If there was any surplus after meeting the objects for which any of them were raised, its disposition, of course, would rest with the Committee or Trustees.

TICKETS OF LEAVE.

  QUESTION.
  MR. DENMANsaid, he rose to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether any instructions have recently been issued with reference to the revocation of Tickets of Leave for infringement of the conditions endorsed thereon?
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, he had a few nights ago stated, in reply to a similar question asked by another hon. Member, that the only instructions which had been given with reference to this subject were that certain officers of the metropolitan police should see the convicts before they left Milbank, with a view to facilitate their identification. Those instructions were part of a general arrangement which had been contemplated by the Government, but which had been suspended during the sitting of the Royal Commission on the subject, in order that the recommendations of that Commission might first be known.

THE NAVY—APPOINTMENT OF MR. REED.—QUESTION.
SIR FREDERIC SMITHsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty, Whether there is any truth in the report that it is contemplated, in the event of the resignation of Mr. Isaac Watts, C.B., Chief Constructor of the Navy, to appoint to that important office a gentleman over the heads of Mr. Abethell, Mr. Oliver Lang, and other distinguished and talented master shipwrights of longstanding in Her Majesty's service?
LORD CLARENCE PAGETsaid, in reply, that it was the intention of the Admiralty to appoint Mr. Reed as Chief Constructor of the Navy. That gentleman had recently been employed in the

573
construction of a vessel according to his own invention, and had done his work extremely well. He was originally brought up in the School of Naval Architecture, and would be, in every respect, a proper successor to Mr. Watts. No reflection was intended to be cast upon the character and ability of the excellent officers to whom his hon. and gallant Friend had alluded. The duties of the Chief Constructor required for their performance a man of very active habits, and those gentlemen, although very eminent, were rather old.

VISCOUNT SYDNEY AND MR. BUDDEN.

  PERSONAL EXPLANATION.
  LORD CLARENCE PAGETsaid, while he was up he would ask the permission of the House to make a statement which he had been asked to make by the Lord Lieutenant of Kent (Viscount Sydney) in reference to observations which fell on the previous evening from the noble Lord the Member for Huntingdonshire (Lord Robert Montagu). The noble Lord stated to the House that a certain gentleman at Chatham, named Budden, was appointed to a captaincy in the Kent Volunteers in consequence of an application from him (Lord C. Paget), and in consequence of his having given a dinner to him (Lord C. Paget) at Chatham. The Lord Lieutenant was very anxious that that misstatement should be rectified. He (Lord C. Paget) had made no application to the Lord Lieutenant. He (Lord C. Paget) knew nothing of Mr. Budden, beyond that he was a highly respectable gentleman belonging to Chatham. He did not know that he was connected with the Volunteers. Lord Sydney stated that he was originally applied to by a deputation headed by the clerk of the peace, to appoint Mr. Budden to a captaincy to command the local corps. It happened, however, that Mr. Budden was employed under the Government in reference to canteens, and Lord Sydney, therefore, thought it desirable that he should not be appointed to a captaincy. Subsequently, however, Mr. Budden became High Constable of Chatham, and Lord Sydney was again applied to, he (Lord C. Paget) believed by all parties — of all sorts of politics—to give the appointment to him. The office of high constable was, he believed, equivalent to that of mayor. Lord Sydney, under these circumstances, gave the appointment to Mr. Budden, on
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  the earnest recommendation of the townspeople. Lord Sydney wished it to be stated that he never had received any request for the appointment from him (Lord C. Paget), and he could only give his word of honour that he never applied to Lord Sydney in reference to Mr. Budden. Connected with the same matter there was another statement which, coming from the quarter it did, he might perhaps pass unnoticed. He (Lord C. Paget) was accused of having gone down to a dinner at Chatham for political purposes—
  MR. SPEAKER: The noble Lord (Lord R. Montagu) to whose statements the noble Lord is referring, is absent, and it is the practice of the House not to allow statements to be made to which the Gentleman charged has no opportunity of reply.
  LORD CLARENCE PAGET: I can only state that I went to a dinner—
  MR. SPEAKER: I think the noble Lord must not continue.
  LORD CLARENCE PAGETsaid, that in obedience to the ruling of the right hon. Gentleman, he would take another opportunity of referring to the matter.

STATE OF NEW ZEALAND.

  QUESTION.
  COLONEL WILSON PATTENsaid, he wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether there is any truth in the report that Sir George Grey has tendered his resignation of the Government of New Zealand, unless more troops are sent there?
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEsaid, that the report was entirely without foundation. Sir George Grey had not applied for more troops. The prospects of peace in New Zealand, he was glad to say, had improved, and were improving.

GAME LAWS (IRELAND).—QUESTION.
MR. HASSARDsaid, he rose to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, If his attention has been called to the 4th section of the Act 27 Geo. III. (Ireland), c. 35, which prohibits any person from buying or selling a hare between the first Monday in November and the first Monday in July, and if he intends to take any steps to amend said Act?
SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, that the clause had been submitted to the Law Officers, but he had not yet received their Report.

THE TRANSPORTATION COMMISSION.

  QUESTION.
  SIR JOHN WALSHsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether he can inform the House when the Commission on Transportation and Secondary Punishments is likely to make its Report?
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, it was impossible for him to give any information as to the time when the Commission on Transportation and Secondary Punishments was likely to make its Report. The Commission was prosecuting its inquiry with due diligence, and he had no reason to suppose there would be any delay in presenting the Report, nor did he think the inquiry would be very protracted.

TENURE OF LAND.—QUESTION.
MR. DARBY GRIFFITHsaid, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Why a Return, moved for on the 1st of August, as to the Tenure and Improvement of Land Act, has not been presented?
SIR ROBERT PEELreplied, that it was necessary that the Orders should be moved again this Session. As soon as that was done, the Return would be produced.

UNDERGROUND RAILWAYS.

  QUESTION
  SIR GEORGE BOWYERsaid, he wished to ask the President of the Board of Trade, Whether the attention of Government has been directed to the effect of Underground Railways in the Metropolis on buildings in the neighbourhood of the lines, and whether the Government will take the subject into their consideration?
  MR. MILNER GIBSONsaid, it was presumed that Parliament, when it passed a Railway Act, inserted such clauses as were necessary for the protection of public and private interests. He supposed that parties injured would still have a right to maintain an action for damages. That, however, was a question which ought more properly to be addressed to his hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General.

THE GALWAT CONTRACT.—QUESTION.
MR. BAXTERsaid, he would beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, When
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the Papers with reference to the renewal of the Galway Contract will be laid upon the table; and has the Government been apprised of any proposal on the part of the Atlantic Royal Mail Company to make, not Galway, but Liverpool or some other English port, the point of departure and arrival of their steamers?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, the correspondence between the Government and the Atlantic Royal Mail Company was already printed, and would be distributed immediately. The intention attributed to the Atlantic Royal Mail Company of sailing from an English port could only be expressed in the form of a proposal, inasmuch as it would introduce a feature altogether novel into the Contract, and he had not heard of any such proposal. A letter, however, had been received from a gentleman connected with the Inman line of steamers, stating that he had reason to believe the Company contemplated some plan of the kind. He had no authentic knowledge on the point, and only mentioned the circumstance to show that the Government were not keeping back anything within their cognizance.

POLAND—CONVENTION BETWEEN RUSSIA AND PRUSSIA.

  QUESTION.
  MR. W. EWARTsaid, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether any reliable account has been received of a Convention said to have been concluded between the Governments of Russia and of Prussia respecting the present state of affairs in Poland; and whether, in such a case, there would be any objection to communicate such information to the House?
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON:—I believe, Sir, that some agreement has been entered into between the Russian and Prussian Governments with reference to the present state of affairs in Poland; and we are informed that the agreement goes to this extent, that the troops of one party shall be at liberty to pursue insurgents into the territory of the other, and that railway accommodation shall be afforded in case of need. I do not believe that the arrangement extends to the employment of force by one party in co-operation with the other. But we have not got the agreement, and all I know is the general report which I have mentioned.

WEST INDIES.—QUESTION.
MR. CAVEsaid, he would beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Why a Paper respecting certain offices in the West Indies, ordered last March, had not been laid on the table, and when it is likely to be produced?
MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE, in reply, said, delay had arisen because the Paper necessitated reference to the West Indies. It was now ready, and would be presented immediately.

SUPPLY.
Order for Committee rend.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

LABOUR IN EGYPT—POLAND.

  QUESTION.
  MR. DARBY GRIFFITHsaid, he wished to put a Question to the noble Lord at the head of the Government, in the interests of humanity. They gave their sympathy freely to residents in the Valley of the Mississippi; why should they refuse it to inhabitants of the region of the Nile? Forced labour was the great evil and curse of that country. It was slavery in its worst form, because the slaveowner had a direct interest in the health and well-being of his slave, whereas a ruler with despotic power obtained labour on his own terms, and was troubled with no responsibility as to the maintenance of the wretched people who were brought in chains to perform his tasks from a distance of from 200 to 500 miles. They were brought from the cataracts to the Delta of the Nile with cruel severity and compulsion. The new Pasha of Egypt, however, had announced his intention of abolishing forced labour there. But from the extensive works going on at the Suez Canal, and from the abundant supply of workmen which the system of forced labour procured, it was feared that the influence of France would be employed against the course announced by the Pasha. The French Government, there was little doubt, would be solicited by the shareholders of the Suez Canal to do all in their power to forward that undertaking, and to prevent the adoption of any course which would interfere with its progress. He wished to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether the Government will afford their support to Ismail Pasha in the execution of his declared intention to abolish forced labour in Egypt?
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Sir, the Question of the hon. Gentleman, as I understand it, is, whether the present Pasha of Egypt has issued, or is about to issue, a decree to prohibit the employment of forced labour in Egypt, and whether that measure has the sanction, and, so far as may be proper, the support of Her Majesty's Government. We understand that the present Pasha, as soon as be came into authority, announced his intention of abolishing altogether the system of forced labour in Egypt; and, undoubtedly, the opinion of Her Majesty's Government is, that it is a very proper measure, that it is only extending to Egypt that rule which, ever since the accession of the late Sultan, has been the law of Turkey, and that its impartial application would be very desirable in Egypt. Such a measure would relieve the population of that country from a tax which presses very heavily upon them, and would contribute very much to the agricultural prosperity of Egypt, because a great number of people are taken away from their private affairs and from the cultivation of their fields, and of course the districts from which they come are left destitute of that labour which is essential for their proper tillage and cultivation. Therefore my answer is, so far as it may be proper for Her Majesty's Government to interfere in a matter which relates entirely to the internal arrangements of the Turkish empire, that it is our opinion that the intended measure of be Pasha is a humane, a just, and a proper measure, and is calculated to extend to the people of Egypt the same relief from compulsory labour which has, for a great number of years, been extended to the people in other parts of the Turksh empire.

POLAND—CONGRESS OF PARIS, 1856.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: While I am on my legs, perhaps my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton (Mr. Denman) would allow me to answer by anticipation Question which he has given notice he would put to me, and which if I waited to answer late at night, the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. D. Griffith] might not then be in his place to hear my answer to his Question. My hon. Friend proposes to ask me whether Her Majesty's Government would produce any correspondence on the subject of Poland which took place between the Earl of Clarendon when he was employed at the Congress of Paris in 1856

579
and Her Majesty's Government. There was only one despatch received by the Earl of Clarendon at that time, and Her Majesty's Government have no objection to produce it if my hon. Friend will move for it.

CARRIAGE ROAD THROUGH HYDE PARK.

  QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT ENFIELDsaid, he had a Question to put to the First Commissioner of Works which was of importance to the inhabitants of the metropolis. The right hon. Gentleman last year introduced a measure to open a communication through Hyde Park between Bayswater and Kensington. His plan, however, met with serious opposition. There were financial difficulties in the way, because the road would cost £7,000; and engineering difficulties and difficulties of time, because it was clearly demonstrated by the hon. Baronet the Member for Finsbury (Sir Morton Peto) that the road would not be ready when the Great Exhibition was opened. His right hon. Friend withdrew his proposal, and brought forward another plan, which had the great advantage of costing only £2,000, and was readily made. That road combined the maximum of convenience to those who used it with the minimum of inconvenience either to foot-passengers in the Park or equestrians in Rotten Row. The close of the Exhibition brought with it the close of the road; but he was bound to say that the right hon. Gentleman kept faith with the House, because he had very distinctly refused to hold out any hope of continuing to keep the road open. He would now ask his right hon. Friend, Whether he would not reconsider his decision of last year, and permit the road to be again opened; because he believed the advantageous results of last year would be again realized, and that it would be of the greatest accommodation to the inhabitants of Bayswater and Kensington to have that means of communication open?
  MR. COWPERsaid, he had long felt the amount of communication between the populous districts of Bayswater and Paddington on the north of the Park, and South Kensington and Chelsea on the south, to be such as urgently to require a public road; and that the concession of such a road was a question of time. It could not be expected that this increasing population would be long content to perambulate the eastern boundary of the
  580
  Park and thus add two miles unnecessarily to their journeys. When the subject was first pressed upon his attention, he felt so much the importance of preventing business traffic from encroaching upon those parts of the Park which were, set apart for the recreation of the people that he endeavoured to arrange that a road should be made, altogether distinct and separate from the other portions of the Park, and it was with that view that he proposed the plan to which his noble Friend had alluded, and which was brought before the House in the month of February last year. But there were many difficulties in adopting any permanent road at that moment, and it was almost impossible to get any plan carried into effect in time for the opening of the Exhibition on the 1st of May. He was therefore induced to adopt the alternative of opening a temporary road by appropriating a portion of the Serpentine Bridge and of Rotten Row to the use of carriages. He was entirely satisfied with the result of that experiment. His noble Friend only expressed the general opinion of those who frequented the Park when he said that the road provided what was wanted, without serious inconvenience to anybody. Now, therefore, that the subject must be again considered, they could not, in his opinion, do better than adopt the same line which experience bad shown to answer so well. He would remind the House that he was asked, towards the close of last Session, by the hon. Member for Finsbury (Sir Morton Peto), whether he should continue the temporary road, and he stated, in reply, that he considered himself pledged to shut it up at the close of the Exhibition, and to that pledge he had most scrupulously adhered. Now, that the matter was again opened for consideration, he was quite prepared to say, that when the repairs should be completed which were now going on on the Serpentine Bridge, which required a coating of asphalt to prevent percolation of the water through the arches, it was his intention to re-open the public road in the same direction in which it ran last year, and he believed that road would provide the accommodation required with the least possible alteration in the general arrangement of the Park, and with the smallest possible impediments to future alterations and improvements. The surface of the road had not been changed; all that had been done was that the wire fence which the Messrs.

  581
  Morton, of Liverpool, had kindly lent for use during the Exhibition was taken away. It would now be necessary to put up the ordinary fence; but when that was done the road would be opened to hired cabs and carriages, but neither carts, omnibuses, nor other heavy traffic would be allowed to make use of it.

DISTRESS IN THE COTTON DISTRICTS.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  SIR LAWRENCE PALKsaid, he rose to call the attention of the House to the distress existing in the manufacturing districts, and to move an Address to Her Majesty praying that a Royal Commission may be issued to consider the best mode of obtaining a permanent supply of Cotton. From the statements which had been made in the House it would be seen that the distress in the manufacturing districts, which had prevailed now for so many months, was approaching so serious a height that it might be almost called a national calamity, and sooner or later must be dealt with as such, it had been stated in that House that during the last six months 500,000 persons had received relief, one half from voluntary contributions and the other half from the rates. It had also been stated that the voluntary contributions amounted to £1,400,000; that there had been borrowed on security of the rates in different unions £63,675, and all this was independent of an immense amount of private and local charity. From Australia alone had been received a sum of £46,630. It had been asserted that in the Union of Rochdale one out of every five of the inhabitants was receiving relief, and they had the evidence of the hon. Member for Carlisle (Mr. Potter), the President of the Chamber of Commerce at Manchester, to the effect that in the Glossop Union the rates had risen from £1.000 a year to £1,000 per week; while the entire rental of the union was only £65,000. That was approaching a state of things described by an hon. Member of that House during the Irish famine, when the poor rates in some districts amounted to 20 s. in the pound. It had been also stated by the lion. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Cobden) that the sums received in the cotton districts for the relief of the distress amounted to £320,000, besides private contributions from millowners, to which must be added
  582
  the loss of capital invested in mills and machinery, and the loss of wages to operatives, amounting, after making certain deductions, to no less a sum than £6,000,000. Did any hon. Member believe that Lancashire could bear, for one or two years longer, such a vast drain on its resources? It was obvious that some other remedy for the distress must be sought for than that which had been hitherto applied, for as the poor rate was raised the distress was added to; and thus in the Oldham Union 4,000 persons had been changed from ratepayers to rate-receivers. The Times newspaper, from which they took inspiration, had directed attention to this question, and had intimated that something else must be done besides feeding hungry men from borrowed money. He did not think that they could possibly expect another sum of £46,000 from Australia, or that this country would subscribe in another year such large sums as it had done in the present. He did not mean to say that sympathy for the operatives would be less, or that the admiration for their patience and forbearance in the sad struggle would be diminished; but facts were facts, and they could not always expect to see the labourers in Devonshire and Cornwall, who only received 10 s. a week, coming own from their distant villages to the parish church to contribute to the maintenance of the Lancashire operatives. Nor, on the other hand, if they turned to the prospect of the cotton supply, could they find any grounds for hope. In 1861 they obtained from America 1,841,600 bales of cotton; in 1862 they obtained 717,666 bales; but it was estimated that during the present year they would not obtain more than 7,000. In 1861 they obtained from all sources 3,329.700 bales; in 1862 they obtained 21,234,316, and the estimated supply in this year was 2,343,900, being very little more than was imported at a time when they were not suffering from a deficient supply of cotton. They could not look with any sort of hope to a termination of the struggle in America. Battles were fought, and blood was shed, but neither side had gained a victory which gave any hope of an approaching termination of the contest. From statements in the public press it appeared in the South the same spirit seemed to actuate both the white man and the slave; and he believed, that if the black population were

  583
  to become combatants, they would range themselves on the side of their masters, rather than with that other portion of society who made war on women, issued proclamations at which the world might blush, and only treated the black slave with contumely and oppression. There being no hope of the termination of the war, of increased production of cotton, or of the continuance of the large contributions hitherto raised for the relief of the distress in Lancashire, what then should be done? The present winter, it should be remembered, had been peculiarly favourable to the poor, and the rigours of climate had not been added to the difficulty of obtaining food and clothing; consequently it would be great good luck if the distress in Lancashire should not be worse in the ensuing year than in the present. What, then, could be done to ameliorate the state of things in Lancashire? Would it be right to attempt mediation? There was a time when that might have been done. He believed, that if the Powers friendly to America had at the commencement of the struggle impressed on the belligerents the folly and ruin of an intestine conflict, the Americans might have listened to the words of common sense and friendship; but, now that blood had been drawn, that one portion of the States was fighting for independence and the other for conquest and extermination, and the horrors of war had been felt on both sides, he doubted whether the Americans would listen to any mediation however friendly or however well urged. Would, then, this country be prepared to recognise the South as an independent government, and to free its coast from a blockade which brought ruin on our operatives, and which he believed was of a questionable sort, as he understood it had always been laid down by high authority that an efficient blockade could only be maintained by vessels able to prevent all ingress and egress? Now, within a very few days, accounts had been received from Charleston to the effect that for a certain number of hours at least the Confederate ships had driven the blockading force away and freed the harbour. It was quite true that after a short interval the blockading force returned to its original position, where it still remained; but the fact that it had been compelled for a time to withdraw proved how very weak the blockade was. The length of the period during which the blockade had continued, and its ineffective character, com-
  584
  bined with its temporary cessation, certainly afforded good grounds for inquiring whether the moment was not rapidly approaching when it ought to be treated as nought. From that source, however, there was no immediate prospect of a supply of cotton. The cotton manufacturers had been repeatedly blamed for not having used greater exertions to procure a supply of raw material. But, first of all, it was necessary to have full and accurate information as to the production of cotton in different parts of the world; and that information ought to be collected by means of a Royal Commission. The Glasgow Chamber of Commerce last autumn urged the Government to appoint a Commission; and subsequently, in presenting an address to Mr. Laing, they declared that they remained of opinion that the course suggested by them was reasonable and expedient, and that it was the ditty, no less than the interest of the Government, to have issued a Commission of Inquiry. The noble Lord, in replying to the memorial, through his Secretary, Mr. Ashley, in September, 1862, expressed his regret that he could not comply with the request to appoint a Commission, as he held that the questions involved must be considered and determined by those interested; that it was undesirable the Government should interfere with the arrangements of merchants and manufacturers in the conduct of their mercantile transactions, and there was no more reason why the Government should interfere with arrangements in regard to cotton than that they should interfere with those affecting corn, timber, or any other article of commerce. As far as the principle of that answer went, it was sound and statesmanlike, but there were exceptions to every rule. The noble Lord would, no doubt, recollect that some years ago, when the agricultural interest was thrown into a state of great distress by certain alterations in the policy of the country, large loans were offered by way of relief to landed proprietors for the improvement of their estates. That measure had, he believed, been attended not only with immediate, but permanent benefit both to the agricultural interest and the country at large. He was disposed to hold that a loan might now be made, with equal justice and success, for the purpose of promoting the cultivation of cotton in some colony where there was a reasonable prospect that it could be produced of good quality and at a

  585
  cheap rate. The information which was required in order to determine which colony was best adapted for that purpose, could be obtained more effectually by a Royal Commission than by a Committee of the House. Many men of great practical experience would be excluded from the latter who would be eligible for the former. Hence the Report of a Commission would carry with it greater weight The first thing to do was to endeavour to obtain the best and the most reliable information as to where cotton could be grown; and if a loan should be required for the purpose of obtaining a supply of cotton, it would be wise and prudent, and common justice, that a loan should be granted by the Legislature. The importance of an accurate knowledge of the state of affairs in their distant possessions was proved by the mischance which had ocurred at Sedashegur. The Manchester Cotton Company had despatched a vessel to that place, relying on the statement of the right hon. Baronet the Secretary for India, that a pier and roads would be constructed by the time the vessel arrived. On the contrary, however, when the ship reached its destination, there was neither pier nor road to be seen. The company had therefore been misled by the incorrect information which the right hon. Baronet had given, of course unknowingly. The right hon. Gentleman had, however, recently stated at Halifax that it was owing to the prevalence of fever that the works were delayed. With regard to a supply of cotton from the colonies, Sir George Bowen, the Governor of Queensland, had repeated in one of his despatches that that part of Australia was admirably adapted both in soil and climate for the cultivation of the most valuable description of Sea Island cotton, and that the practicability of obtaining good crops there had been proved by several successful experiments. Mr. Bazley had expressed the highest opinion of a sample from Queensland, valuing it at 1s. 3d. a pound. He believed, that if it could once be proved that cotton could be grown either in Queensland, or in any other British colony, at a profit, little or no support would be required from the Government, for the public would be only too anxious to invest in any undertaking which promised a profitable return. There was another place where, as he was informed, cotton could be grown with great facility. He alluded to Jamaica. Indeed, he entertained little doubt that in many of the
  586
  dependencies of Her Majesty, cotton could be successfully cultivated by free labourers. Some colonial cotton had already been tested, and he held in his hand a bit of cotton cloth manufactured from wool which gained the first prize at the International Exhibition, and which was approved by the authorities at Manchester. He would not delay the House by enlarging upon the credit and honour which would accrue to England if the foul blot could be removed from her of encouraging the slave trade by confining her purchases of cotton to South America. That question, however, was perhaps rather one for the philanthropists than for that House. For himself, he had no interest in the matter, except an earnest desire to mitigate the distress in Lancashire; and if he could persuade the House to take some steps in the direction he had indicated, thereby encouraging the production of free-grown cotton, he believed great benefits would result to the whole country. Whether the House would grant a Royal Commission, or whether it would prefer to submit the question to a Select Committee, he knew not; but his only object was that an inquiry should be speedily instituted, and that no effort should be spared to obtain that supply of cotton upon which depended the comfort and happiness—he might almost say the existence — of our Lancashire operatives. The hon. Baronet concluded by moving for the Address.
  Amendment proposed,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that a Royal Commission may be issued, to consider the best mode of obtaining a permanent supply of Cotton,"
  —instead thereof.
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  MR. MILNER GIBSON: Sir, the hon. Member for South Devon (Sir Lawrence Palk) has asked the House to present an Address to the Crown to appoint a Royal Commission to inquire into the best mode of obtaining a permanent supply of cotton wool. Before, Sir, I offer an opinion as to the course which it is desirable to take on this Motion, I wish to remark upon some of the observations that fell from the hon. Baronet at the commencement of his speech. I have no doubt that the hon.

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  Baronet has given us a correct narrative of the distressed condition of those parts of the country to which he has directed his inquiries. I can only say for myself, and I believe I may also speak for every Member of this House, that we join with him most entirely in the deep sympathy he has expressed for the distress which he has described to us. In the Speech from the Throne that feeling was expressed, and was responded to by the House. In fact, Sir, it would be impossible for any one in this House—for the Government, or for any portion of the intelligent population of this country, to feel otherwise than deep interest in the condition of so important an industry as the cotton industry, that has contributed so greatly to the wealth and prosperity of this country, that employs so large a number of our population, that causes so great an amount of capital to be distributed amongst the operative classes, and that gives us so large a portion of our export trade. It furnishes forty per cent of our export trade in ordinary times, and even in the present time it represents thirty-three per cent of the whole export trade to foreign countries. It is unnecessary to say more than that we entirely concur with the hon. Baronet in those feelings he expresses of deep interest in the future fortunes of the cotton industry. But, Sir, the remedy which the hon. Baronet proposes is one I think that is very questionable. I doubt whether we ever had a Royal Commission analogous to that proposed by the hon. Gentleman. The meaning of a Commission is, that there is a practical evil for which a remedy is asked, and that there are means at the command probably of the Government or of Parliament to obviate that evil. Now, I cannot understand that any Report which a Royal Commission could make would justify the Government in undertaking, or would in fact give Parliament reason to undertake, by direct encouragement, the cultivation of cotton, either by advancing money or commencing operations as cotton agriculturists or cotton traders. I do not know what acts of the Executive or what laws of Parliament would be likely to follow, I consistently with free trade policy, which Parliament has adopted, if this Commission were granted. The facts that this Commission would lay before the House are already fully in the possession of the House; and, I believe, have been extensively circulated throughout the country.
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  Some time since the Cotton Supply Association, to which the hon. Baronet referred at the outset of his speech, was formed, and at the outset of its career put itself into communication with the Foreign Office. The Foreign Office complied with their request that the Foreign Secretary would instruct the British Consuls in various parts of the world to reply to any queries relating to the probability of growing cotton in different countries which that association should think necessary to be sent out. The Foreign Office accordingly sent circulars to Brazil, Egypt, Turkey, and other places, at the instance of the Cotton Supply Association, and I believe the Earl of Malmesbury went the length of recommending that the Treasury should give some pecuniary aid, which, I think I am correctly informed, was afforded by the Treasury for the purpose of defraying the expenses incurred by the Cotton Supply Association in growing cotton experimentally in different countries. From the outset, when the Earl of Clarendon was Foreign Secretary, until Earl Russell held the seals of office, every endeavour has been made to co-operate with the Cotton Supply Association, for the purpose of procuring from foreign countries any information that possibly could be acquired to afford facilities for getting a supply of cotton. I contend that a Commission could do nothing that has not already been done. There is no mystery, no contested point, into which a Commission could with any hope of advantage institute an inquiry. In fact, the hon. Baronet has not clearly explained whether the Royal Commission which he would have appointed is to take evidence here, or is itself to travel to all those various countries—to Africa, to Brazil, to India, and even to the Fejee Islands—and locally investigate the capabilities of these different countries for the growth of cotton. Such an inquiry as that would have a very lengthened duration, and would, I think, be a cause of great regret, in consequence of the delay that would arise, even to the hon. Baronet himself. Now, I know it may be said that it can do no harm to inquire—it can never do any harm to inquire—and that in the present condition of the manufacturing districts it would be ungracious not to accede to a proposal for mere inquiry, and that therefore the Government ought to agree to the appointment of the Royal Commission, because, if it can do no good, it can

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  do no harm. Now, Sir, it seems to me that it would be unbecoming in the Government to agree to the appointment of a Royal Commission on such an understanding. There ought to be some definite benefit and practical good to be obtained, and one which there appears every probability of arriving at before a Commission is appointed. But is it really true, I will ask, that the appointment of a Commission would do no harm? I, for one, am not of that opinion. On the contrary. Sir, I am afraid that if a Commission were appointed, such a step might lead to the impression out of doors that the Government or Parliament was about to take upon itself, either by means of a bounty or otherwise, the promotion of the cultivation of cotton. If such a feeling were spread through the country, the effect would be that the enterprise which is now beginning to manifest itself would be paralysed, and that undertakings now about to commence would be suspended, until parties had had an opportunity of seeing what was to be the course of action taken by Government and the Parliament. Therefore, I think that itself is a reason why the Government should not listen to the argument that a Commission of Inquiry would be a harmless proceeding if it could do no good. The hon. Baronet has mentioned several places from which cotton might be procured, but from whence he seemed to infer that it was necessary that further information should be obtained. Amongst these he mentioned Queensland and Jamaica. Now, it happens that two companies which have been recently formed with considerable capital, and supported entirely by private enterprise, are companies for the purpose of growing cotton in Queensland and Jamaica, these being two of the places which he mentioned to which a Commission should be sent for the purpose of obtaining information. The formation of these various companies for the promotion of the cultivation of cotton is a proof that the attention of capitalists is being directed to this channel for the employment of capital. These companies would, no doubt, be seriously injured if it were understood that as a result of the investigation of a Commission, Parliament was to interfere and come into competition with private and unaided enterprises. Sir, there is abundance of capital and there is no lack of enterprise in England to undertake what is neces-
  590
  sary to supply the wants of the country. Capital will find its way wherever there is a field for profitable enterprise, and I certainly shall maintain that it is not the province of Government or of Parliament to undertake the supply of any article. I am quite sure that if, during the time of the agitation of the Corn Law question in this country, any hon. Member had proposed that a Royal Commission should be appointed to inquire into the best means for obtaining a permanent supply of food, those Gentlemen who were advocating free trade as the best course for procuring that permanent supply would have offered the most determined opposition to any such proposal. I hope, therefore, that for the reasons I have given the hon. Baronet will not press this Motion to a division, and I think he may be contented with having raised a very useful discussion. I think the House will be of the opinion that no practical benefit could be derived from the appointment of a Royal Commission such as has been proposed. Upon the question of India, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is prepared to say whatever is necessary in defence of the particular proceeding that refers to the road leading from Sedashegur. I am not aware of the particulars of that affair, hut, generally speaking, with regard to India and its capacity to produce cotton, there appears to be no lack of information. We have three valuable works relating to the three Presidencies, called the Cotton Handbooks, giving a most elaborate description, and containing the most particular information as to the various parts of the three Presidencies, the actual condition of the cultivation of the soil, and the possibility of extending the growth of cotton throughout these three Presidencies. There can be no want of information in regard to our power of growing cotton in India. It may be possible, indeed, that obstacles may be removed by the Government, and that changes may be effected which would prevent the growth of cotton being impeded. In fact, the Committee which was appointed some years ago, and of which my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham (Mr. Bright) was Chairman, reported that with the encouragement that was then being given by Government by the removal of all obstacles to successful cotton growing in India, there was every probability that eventually a considerable supply of cotton suited for the English market would

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  find its way to England from India. Sir, I am afraid that there is something more necessary than the mere supply of cotton, for I believe it is not only a question of quantity, but a question of price. It is my opinion, that unless the price of cotton is fixed at such a rate as to enable the manufacturer to sell the manufactured articles themselves at a rate so as to reach the poorer classes in the various countries to which they are sent, it is not likely that we shall continue to have that extensive trade in cotton manufactures that has hitherto existed. You may get abundance of any article if you choose to go to the price requisite for its production, but what is necessary for the support of this great industry is an abundant supply of cotton at a cheap rate. It is the cheapness of the raw material that has caused our cotton manufacture to acquire the great dimensions that it has possessed, and without which I fear it will never become so extensive again. Seeing that the great cotton manufacturing system has grown up directly by individual enterprise, by the unaided effort of enterprising men—seeing that it owes nothing to legislative protection—I very much doubt whether it is likely to be revived from its present unfortunate position by any legislative protection. It will be revived, I have not the slightest apprehension, by those same means that caused it to grow up to the great magnitude to which it has attained. By leaving to individual effort and the operation of the law of supply and demand the provision of the markets of this country with cotton, as with all other articles, we shall be pursuing the course which will be most advantageous for the interests of the country, and especially for the interests of that industry whose cause the hon. Baronet has undertaken to plead.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

DISTRESS IN IRELAND.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. MAGUIRE:—Sir, the attention of Parliament has been already frequently engaged during this Session in the consideration of distress prevailing in the Lancashire district; but there is another portion of the Empire in which distress of a grevious nature exists, and which is justly entitled to the consideration of this House. Much soreness has been felt and expressed in Ireland, that while in
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  Speeches from the Throne allusion has been made, last year and this year, to the state of things in Lancashire, no notice whatever has been taken of the distress which last year was generally felt in many counties in Ireland, and is this year far more general and severe, in consequence of three successive bad harvests —in fact, three failures of the staple industry of that country. English Members, to understand the case of Ireland, must consider that there is no possible similarity in the circumstances of England and Ireland. While England, happily for herself, has many industrial resources, Ireland, may, as a rule, be said to have but one—that is, her agriculture—raising from the soil its various natural productions. With the exception of a few branches of manufacture, one of which is confined to a certain district, she has scarcely anything to depend upon save her agricultural industry; and if that fail, as it has for the last three years, the consequence must be severely felt by all classes of the community. During the last three years, unfortunately, Ireland, instead of advancing as other countries have done, has retrograded in material prosperity, in live stock, and in agricultural produce. This is proved beyond doubt by the Returns supplied by Government, and whose general accuracy has not been questioned. In the quantity of land under cultivation there has been a serious falling-off. The number of acres under cultivation in 1841 was 7,000,000, while in 1862 it was but 5,751.195, showing a decrease of nearly a million and a quarter acres. Comparing the year 1862 with the year 1861, the decrease in the number of acres under cultivation was 138,841. The decrease in the value of live stock in the same year, as compared with the year previous, was £1,564,710. Comparing the year 1862 with the year 1859, when the condition of the country was comparatively prosperous, the falling-off is somewhat fearful. In 1859, the value of live stock was £35,363,000, and in 1862 it was £31,204,000—showing a decrease of no less than £4,164,000. Another most important fact must be taken into consideration with respect to the downward progress of the country. Ireland, instead of being a grain-exporting country, has become a grain-importing country—instead of raising sufficient food for her people, and being able to send a large surplus to the markets of this coun-

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  try, she has come to depend for her own supply upon corn imported from abroad. Thus, in the year 1861 Ireland imported foreign corn to the amount of more than £6,000,000, while her exports were but £2,000,000 of her own produce. I have not the exact returns for last year; but assuming, which is not probable, that a less quantity was imported in 1862 than in 1861, and that I set it down for fear of exaggeration at but £4,000,000—it is clear that Ireland has, in two years, imported for her own use no less than £10,000,000 of foreign corn. Add to this the melancholy fact that she has lost in three years live stock to the amount of £4.164,000. If these facts do not show that Ireland is steadily going back, then, Sir, I do not know what value there is in figures. During the recess a distinguished Member of this House, writing under the signature "M.P." in one of the London morning papers (The Star), expressed his wonder how the people of Ireland paid for these enormous imports. The fact is, they were, as I have shown, paying for them out of their capital, instead of out of their income—in other words, they were eating up their substance. A few nights since, the annual Lord Mayor's banquet was given in Dublin. On that occasion, the Lord Mayor used these words—"The bad harvests of the last three years have produced great calamities in this country." The Lord Lieutenant has been, for a long time, accustomed to describe the state of the country in rather roseate hues, but during the last two years he has been obliged to dip his pencil in more sombre colours. In his speech on that occasion, his Excellency spoke as follows:—
  "On some previous occasions it has been my good fortune in this place, and on these occasions, to dilate upon the favourable condition and satisfactory aspect of the country. On some previous occasions, I say, it has been my good fortune, without contradiction or objection to do so. Last year I was not enabled to take so sanguine a view, and this year I feel more strongly, in common with the Lord Mayor, who has already addressed some observations to you on the subject, that three moist and ungenial summers have left their traces upon the land and upon those who live by it. I concede that it is impossible to deny that considerable pressure now rests upon most of the agricultural classes. It has not, I am proud to think, made them indifferent to wide-spread distress in other quarters, and I trust that they will find such alleviation as may be requisite in local benevolence and in local exertions, whether in the form of increased attention to drainage or other methods of agricultural
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  Improvement……The city of Dublin has naturally had its share in the pressure of the times which has been felt by the country at large."
  Now, Sir, it is because I believe that "local benevolence and local exertions" cannot meet the necessity of the case, that I venture to submit this statement to the House; and I think I can show, by indisputable evidence, that the condition of Ireland is such as to demand not only the sympathy of Parliament and the country, but the active interposition of the Government. I shall read a few lines from a letter addressed by a wholesale firm in Dublin to the Mansion House Committee, on the 20th of January, enclosing a subscription. The letter is from Thomas Downy and Co., and contains this passage—
  "We have had a long business acquaintance with all parts of Ireland, and the writer traversed the land in its length and breadth for many years by modes of conveyance which gave an opportunity to become acquainted with its state and condition, whilst of late we have regular reports from our agents and others. The reports this season, with the state of trade, satisfy us that excepting the famine years of 1847 and 1848, there is, and will be, more difficulty felt by the small farmer in paying his rent, tilling and cropping his ground, by the small shopkeeper in meeting his engagements, and by the labourer and artisan in supporting themselves and families, than there has been for many, many years."
  That is the letter of a practical man, who is thoroughly acquainted with the state of the country. The Mansion House Committee issued an address, and depicted a gloomy state of things. Now, I may here remark that so impressed was he with the existence of the distress represented by the Committee, that Her Majesty's Attorney General for Ireland sent a letter of sympathy, in which he enclosed a cheque for £25. The Committee in their report say—
  "Having thus shown that population and agricultural production were largely on the decrease last year, we turn in vain to any branch of industry, trade, or commerce which would indicate a result less discouraging. The savings banks, the loan fund, the pawn office, unerring tests of popular comfort or depression, the county courts — where ejectment and civil bills, for small sums, are tried—the bankrupt court, personal and real property, funded property, our banks, our railways, our few branches of manufacture, our trade, our commerce, the condition, singly as well as cumulatively, of every industrial and mercantile interest in the country, indicates a depression such as had not been reached in Ireland since the close of the famine period. One important element, however, has considerably increased, and that is taxation."

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  The last sentence contains a most important allusion—to the rapid increase in the taxation of Ireland; but, as my hon. and gallant Friend behind me (Colonel Dunne) intends to bring that subject specially forward, I shall not in any way allude to it now. Nor, indeed, shall I be induced to travel for one moment from the object which I now have alone in view—to prove I the existence of severe and wide-spread distress in Ireland. I have received a short and pithy letter from a Protestant Gentleman, Captain Knox, Proprietor of The Irish Times, who takes a most creditable part in endeavouring to promote the relief of distress in the country. Writing on the 13th of February, he says—
  "In the course of my business I am brought into contact with persons of almost every class and of every shade of politics, and I have no hesitation in saying that for years past there has not been so much stagnation in trade, and destitution in the country, as exists at present. While the spring work will, to some extent, though in a very small degree, relieve the labouring classes, it will do but little towards ameliorating the condition of the small landholders and small shopkeepers. The present state of this country demands the earnest attention of the Government; or, if they continue to pursue the policy which they have hitherto adopted on this question, then I trust that the Legislature will see the necessity for some action being taken. What is greatly to be feared is, that these periods of distress will not only completely impoverish the country, but that they will become chronic.
  Having quoted a Protestant authority, I may now quote an eminent Catholic authority; and few, if any, know the condition of Dublin more accurately than the Most Rev. Dr. Cullen. I shall only read the following extract from a letter dated the 18th February:—
  "I regret to state, in reply to your queries, that there is great and general distress in Dublin. The Sisters of Charity, who are constantly engaged in ministering to the wants of the poor; the gentlemen of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, who occupy themselves in the same work of benevolence, and the parochial clergy, who are called at every hour to visit the resorts of misery and sickness—all agree in stating that the destitution now prevailing, is almost equal in extent, and intensity, to that of the years of famine. Vast numbers of poor people, driven from their little holdings in the country, have come to seek for the means of existence in Dublin, and have thus increased the amount of misery, which was already very great. In the mean time there is little employment for the labouring classes; trade is bad, and the shopkeepers and merchants have suffered a great deal in their business on account of the general want of money in the country, occasioned by three bad harvests. In every part of the city you meet with thousands of poor people evidently suffering from the want of food, and almost naked.
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  Indeed, there is more misery in Dublin, under the care of the British Government, than you could discover were you to examine all the poorest towns of Belgium, France, and Austria. The people of Rome would be horrified were they to see so many barefooted women and children as are met with every day in Dublin…. The population is greatly reduced, the agricultural produce is considerably diminished; whilst the country is so far from becoming "the mother of flocks and herds," as some political economists would wish her to be, to the destruction of human beings, that the value of live stock is now less by several millions than it was some years ago."
  I shall now glance rapidly at other portions of Ireland. As to Tipperary, the Most Rev. Dr. Leahy thus describes its condition in a sentence—
  "The distress is much worse than last year, and cannot be questioned, is not questioned, by any but those who, for sinister purposes, deny open facts."
  As to Limerick, my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for that county (Colonel Dickson) has already described it to the House, while corroborating my statement on the first night of the Session; and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the City of Limerick (Major Gavin) has, on more than one occasion, assured me that he has seen sights of misery and horror, within a few miles of the city, such as he had not witnessed for ten years previously. I might adduce the testimony of a distinguished Member of this House— the Member for Horsham (Mr. Seymour FitzGerald) — who informed me that he was in the constant receipt of intelligence from the counties of Limerick and Tipperary, which described the condition of those counties as most appalling. I have the authority of the hon. and gallant Member for Roscommon (Colonel French) for saying that nothing worse than the present state of things has been in his county since the famine; and my hon. Friend, the junior Member of the county (The O'Conor Don), who has just left to discharge his duties as High Sheriff, fully corroborates that statement. Again, a meeting was to have been held yesterday in Sligo, to take into consideration the distress of the county. The county of Galway and the city are also in a sad condition, but it is unnecessary to enter into details. In Kerry the distress is so goading and keen, that it occasioned some opposition to the movement for the relief of Lancashire. The state of things was bad in Kerry last year, but it promises to be much worse this year. Now, turn to the county of Cork, and first to its Western districts. I have several

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  letters in reference to various districts, but I shall only quote from one, especially as it describes what is common to the entire. The Right Rev. Dr. O'Hea, the Catholic Bishop of Ross, thus writes on the 16th of February, from Skibuereen—
  "The labourer and the tradesman have had no employment. Some of that class have taken refuge in the workhouse with their families, and have thus forfeited any claim to the wretched cabins in which they lived. Others hold on to their little dwellings, struggling hard against every sort of privation. It is not unusual with them to come to me after a fast of twenty-four hours, craving for one meal for themselves and their families. Every morning the Sisters of Mercy, at their convent, give a breakfast to some thirty children; and it is my conviction that many of those young creatures must rest satisfied with that one meal. Distress, pinching distress, prevails in this town, and is likely to prevail until next harvest…. There is another class here worse off than those to whom I have alluded; for they are indeed ashamed to beg, and to ask even for temporary relief. I mean the class of small farmers, and that class includes many in this part of the Carberies. It is a mystery to me how they have struggled on to the present. I cannot believe that they can hold on much longer. They will not be able to seed their little holdings; consequently, next harvest can bring them no relief. They have no credit to get from the merchant. They have already parted with the horse, the cow—often the very furniture of their houses has been sold. Every other available article has been lodged in the pawn-office. They are reduced to the last extremity, living on turnips, for these are the cheapest kind of food. To know the reality, it would be necessary to visit their houses, and see things with one's own eyes.…. Should there be a cessation of hostilities between the Northern and Southern States of America, it is my conviction that half the population of Ireland would be across the Atlantic in a few months."
  I now turn to the better-circumstanced districts of the County Cork, and quote the following important letter from the Right Rev. Dr. Keane, the Catholic Bishop of Cloyne, who is thoroughly conversant with the condition of the people of his diocese. Writing on the 18th of February, he says—
  "I regret to be obliged to say that there is great and general distress. At the end of three successive bad harvests, the last the worst, it could not be otherwise. In dry limestone districts, the potato crop was good in quantity and in quality; but in wet and retentive soils, the produce, in every instance short, often failed to cover the expense of cultivation. The corn crop was, on the whole, perhaps the worst ever known. On the most favoured lands, the wheat, as a rule, was scarcely half, and in many instances less than half, of a fair average; while the barley and oats were either worse, or did not ripen at all. Towards the end of October, there were, in various places, fields of corn
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  lodged and blackening, on which day after day heavy rain continued to fail. To the poorer farmers the extent of loss cannot be overrated. The result to them and to others is, that they have neither money nor credit; the shopkeepers are without business; and the tradesmen and labourers are not employed. It is not easy to explain how the working classes, dependent on occasional labour, have got over the last four months. On the countenances of the children attending school may be noticed, as during the famine of '47 and '48, unmistakable proofs of destitution and of hunger."
  In his Lenten Pastoral, the Bishop has this most touching passage—
  "We regret, beloved brethren, to be forced to say, that Lent, or no Lent, fasting will be this year the rule for the greater number of the working classes. In the midst, then, of the saddening statements made to us by those who thoroughly understand their position, we need not exhort them to the practice of fasting, which has already become a matter of stern, unadvoidable necessity."
  As to the city of Cork I shall only quote a line from the last report of the Vincent Society, who really constitute a most important institution through which the best form of out-door relief is administered. Their last year's expenditure was £1,754, or £500 over the average. The report says:—"Unfortunately, we are now entering on a year of still greater destitution." I think, Sir, I have now adduced sufficient evidence to show, that if the operatives of Lancashire deserve the sympathy of this House, the sufferings of the people of Ireland equally deserve their sympathy, as well as the respectful and earnest consideration of her Majesty's Government. After three bad harvests, and the last the worst of the three, what else could there be but a state of great destitution in the land? I solemnly believe, that if Ireland should unfortunately have another bad harvest, in succession to those which we now deplore, the people will be reduced to such a condition, that they will take the first opportunity to flee from its shores in masses. Now, some Gentlemen may think it better that the population should leave their native shores in that manner; but for my part I should view it as a great calamity—a great calamity for Ireland, and a great calamity also for the Empire. Sir Robert Kane proved, when Ireland had more than 8.000,000, and perhaps 9,000.000, of inhabitants, that the land, if properly cultivated and its resources duly developed, might support a much greater population than that. I think his calculations went nearly to

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  twice that number. It is sad therefore to think that a much diminished population should have no other resource but in quitting their native land. I hold, Sir, that the people of Ireland are as fully entitled to the consideration and assistance of the Government and the country as the people of Lancashire, who, I need not say, have had my warmest sympathy. The suffering in Ireland arose from natural causes, not from the passions of man; and why, therefore, because Providence, for its own wise ends, has again grievously afflicted them, are they not as much entitled to sympathy as if their sufferings arose from the consequences of a war in a foreign country? The suffering of Ireland has arisen from no overtrading, but is due to causes quite as much beyond the control of those who have to endure it as the cotton crisis in Lancashire. It will be no answer to me to say that in some unions the rates are still apparently moderate. In many they are high; but were they apparently moderate in all, it would be really no answer to my statements. The hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Cobden), the other night, said, he should deplore any great increase of the poor rates in Lancashire, because it would drag down many of the ratepayers to the level of the paupers. The same remark would apply to Ireland. In districts where the rates appear comparatively low, they yet fall with crushing weight upon the small farmers, and even upon the shopkeepers, whose resources have been greatly reduced, and who, in fact, have scarcely the means left of supporting themselves. Nor has the distress by any means reached its height. It is a cruel policy to throw a people upon their unaided resources; when those resources are so fearfully diminished by three successive failures of their staple industry. There will be, to a certain extent, relief afforded to the labouring class by out-door employment during the next month or two; but from the month of May to the month of September, when the harvest will be got in, I am afraid the sufferings of the people will be fearful. The effect already has been terrible. Country towns, once the seats of happiness and prosperity, are literally collapsed, and trade is in those towns utterly annihilated; and if things progress in the same sad direction, the result will be that half the towns in Ireland will become in a short time heaps of ruins. Sir, if the Government are satis-
  600
  fied that the state of things in Ireland is such as has been described in the statements which I have quoted, they are bound in some way or other to come to its rescue. I may be asked, what are they to do? Well, it is I who ask the Government if they have in their contemplation any remedial measure—for I can assure the right hon. Baronet that his Registration Bill is not a measure of relief, and will do nothing to meet the difficulty of the times. The Drainage Bill of my hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Dickson) will, no doubt, effect much good; but even it, if now passed, could not afford immediate relief. I still could suggest that much could be done, were there the desire to do it. For instance, in many parts of the country, fishing, which is an important branch of industry with the large coast population, cannot be carried on in safety in consequence of the dangerous and unprotected nature of the coast; why should not small harbours be made or improved, and piers be made in such localities? Then there is another description of useful work, which would be of enormous advantage at this moment. I am told that in certain districts of Ireland distress does not prevail—why? Because a railway is being carried through, and it affords extensive employment. Now, in consequence of the prevalent depression, railway enterprise languishes in many districts, and the works are still unproceeded with. I could point out two in my own county, which would pass through poor districts—from Cork to Macroom, and from Bandon to Skibbereen—and which would be of great benefit to the districts through which they are to pass. Are there, then, no railway enterprises in Ireland which could be stimulated by being assisted? Surely, by lending money on easy terms, such undertakings could be materially promoted. Why should not the Government aid in giving life to these languishing enterprises—which are good for all classes and for all interests—good for the country, and good for the empire. Then, there are works which the Government may themselves undertake in various localities. But why enter into particulars? If the Government are convinced that distress exists in Ireland, and are in earnest in their sympathy, the means of affording relief could be found. In the other House, a few nights since, the Pope's Government was taunted with the defect of being a "paternal" government. Well, Sir, I

  601
  confess I should prefer a little more of the paternal in the dealings of our Government with the people of Ireland in the hour of their necessity; and I sincerely trust that they will take the condition of that country into their best consideration in order to avert a calamity which is not only impending, but seems inevitable. I trust I have not too long occupied the attention of the House, and that I have strictly redeemed my promise by confining myself to the sole object for which I have risen on this occasion—which is, to draw the attention of Parliament and the country to the present state of things in Ireland, and to elicit from the Government some explanation on the subject. I now, Sir, beg to ask of the Irish Secretary the Question of which I have given notice—namely, Whether the attention of the Government has been directed to the distress now existing in Ireland; and, if so, Whether it is in their contemplation to adopt any measures for its relief?
  COLONEL DICKSONsaid, he wished to return his thanks to the hon. Gentleman for having brought forward this subject. It must be admitted on all hands that deep distress existed in Ireland, and he wished to impress on the right hon. Secretary for Ireland the necessity of taking some step to prevent its continuance. It was not only in the agricultural districts, but in the country towns that the distress was felt. The commercial interest also was suffering. The proprietors of large concerns, possessed of good capital, in considerable towns, had informed him that the season last winter had been such as almost to induce them to shut up their establishments. He entirely approved the suggestion which bad been made of affording assistance to railways in course of construction. In connection with all such works there was a large amount of capital locked up, and the right hon. Baronet might well turn his attention and that of the Government to the desirability of unlocking some of that capital, and rendering it available for the construction of the works. Great stress had recently been laid on the amount of poor rate in some parts of England, and provision had been made that when in the distressed districts the poor rate rose to 3s. 6d. in the pound rates in aid should be collected in the adjoining district; but in many parts of Ireland the poor rate this season had considerably exceeded that amount. He had no wish to draw comparisons between the distress hi Ireland and
  602
  that in Lancashire. He was proud to think that his countrymen in Ireland had not been behindhand in their subscriptions for the relief of distress in Lancashire. They recollected the provision made for them in former years, and wished to return the kindness which had been shown to them. But, while attending a meeting in his own county to collect subscriptions for that purpose, he could not but feel some compunction in asking his countrymen to subscribe to relieve a population whose poor rates did not exceed 3s. 6d. in the pound, when there were parts of Ireland where the poor rates were 4s., 5s., and even 6s. in the pound. That was a serious state of affairs, and he hoped the Government would take it into anxious consideration. The Lord Lieutenant of Ireland had at length discovered that things were retrograding in that country. It was not in the power of private individuals to relieve or mitigate the distress that existed. That was to a great extent within the power of the Government; and he hoped the right hon. Baronet would insist on their allowing him to introduce some measure to prevent the population of Ireland from longer suffering such misery and distress.
  SIR ROBERT PEEL: Sir, I have listened with great attention to the remarks by which the hon. Gentleman the Member for Dungarvan (Mr. Maguire) prefaced his Question, and I am bound to admit, speaking on behalf of the Government, it is evident there never was any intention to deny that, consequent on three successive deficient harvests, naturally a state of things exists in Ireland which must not only cause considerable pressure on those to be relieved, but on the small farmers, and especially the shopkeepers. The hon. and gallant Officer (Colonel Dickson) has stated that my noble Friend his Excellency the Lord Lieutenant has at length admitted the distress, but surely he must acknowledge that no more benevolent and kind-hearted nobleman exists, or one who would be more disposed to come forward and give his assistance if it were thought expedient on the part of the Government. I do not quarrel with the right of the hon. Gentleman to bring this question before the House and Parliament. I am bound to say no one is more entitled than he is to bring it forward, when I recollect the position he took recently in the county of Cork to arouse a feeling of sympathy towards those who were suffering distress in Lancashire. The Dublin Relief Com-

  603
  mittee, of which I was an attentive member, could not refrain from expressing our admiration of the conduct of the hon. Gentleman as Mayor of Cork. The words which he used on that occasion entitle him to the warmest respect, for, placed in the position which he occupied, he was surrounded by considerable difficulties. With what might have been the excuse of considerable pressure and suffering in his own country, he came nobly forward and said—
  "Let us recollect the sufferings we underwent in the famine years, and let us stretch forward a liberal hand for the relief of our suffering fellow countrymen.… There are in every manufacturing town of Lancashire thousands of the same blood and race as ourselves who this day appeal to our sympathy in their misery, to our compassion, to our humane and Christian feelings."
  And he went on to say—
  "We shall give this day to our countrymen what we can afford, and we all meet as Christian men, on a common platform, to do a common act of Christian kindness."
  The result of the appeal was a magnificent subscription in Cork, and no man, therefore, is better entitled than the hon. Gentleman to come forward now and lay before Parliament and the country the condition of Ireland at this moment. I can only reply to the hon. Gentleman in the language used by the noble Viscount at the head of the Government. Over the causes that afflict Ireland we have no control; they are the result of inclement seasons, of atmospheric influences, that it would be impossible to circumscribe or prevent; while the distress in Lancashire springs from human causes, which, God knows, we all desire should come to a termination as speedily as possible. When the hon. Gentleman endeavours to frame a comparison between the suffering in Ireland and Lancashire, we must remember, that terrible as have been the trials in Lancashire, no public grants of money were made. The destitute have been supported partly by the rates, partly by the liberal generosity of persons in all quarters of the world; and therefore, if in England we have not come forward with any special grants, I think the hon. Member and other hon. Members will agree with me that it would be very difficult for the Government and for me, speaking as an humble and subordinate Member of that Government, to propose grants for the alleviation of distress in Ireland. I must call the attention of the hon. Member to a report
  604
  issued by the Dublin Central Relief Committee, in which they state that—
  "£8,000 have been received by this Committee; besides which, upwards of five times that sum have been allocated by local authorities engaged in the same humane duty."
  MR. MAGUIRE:—That was last year.
  SIR ROBERT PEEL:—The report was issued, I believe, in the mouth of September. I have also learned by the Australian newspapers that an amount exceeding £7,000 has been subscribed by the inhabitants of Australia towards the funds in the hands of the Dublin Committee. I do not for a moment deny that a period of very severe pressure does exist, and that it will require great care and vigilance to overcome it; but it is not an occasion on which Government ought to come forward with special loans or grants of money. I am justified in saying that there are only three unions in Ireland— Cork, Limerick, and the South Dublin Union — where there is any pressure on the accommodation which the workhouses afford. There has been a large increase of out-door relief lately, consequent on the more lenient action of the Poor Law passed last year, but I must say that the state of things in Ireland bears no comparison with the position of affairs in Lancashire or with the facts disclosed in the Earl of Derby's speech. The hon. Member for Rochdale stated that in that town alone, with a population of 38,000, there are 20,000 persons in the receipt of poor relief and assistance from other benevolent channels: while in Ireland, with a population of 5,700,000, the total number in receipt of indoor and outdoor relief is 75.000. I admit that the number, even at that limit, is unfortunately too great, and that the present moment, perhaps, does not afford a fair criterion; but, taking the comparison as presented by the Poor Law figures, I am disposed to believe that the state of Ireland does not justify the melancholy picture which some persons are disposed to draw. The hon. Member also referred to the statistics of Irish prosperity, and observed that the number of acres under cultivation had decreased, while the live stock had increased in number. That is perfectly true. Owing to successive bad seasons, the farmers have thought it better to turn their holdings into pasturage than to expose themselves to the losses entailed by bad and defective crops. It was contended by the hon. and gallant Member for Limerick

  605
  that the rates in Ireland were very heavy —I think he said over 3s. 6d. in the pound, in a very great number of in stances. It is important that I should put my hon. and gallant Friend right on that head, because I have just received a return from Dublin showing the average poundage on the rates now in course of collection in Ireland. It says—
  "There are fifty-four electoral districts where the rates exceed 3s. in the pound, and there are eight where the rates exceed 5s.; but the average poundage on the rates in Ireland does not exceed move than 1s. 2d. in the pound."
  That does not show a very heavy pressure generally on the rates; and I would observe, that with all this suffering, I am informed by the best authority that the: sanitary condition of the people was never better. A great deal of harm, in my opinion, is done by speeches and discussions in the public press as to "how Ireland may be saved." They are calculated to exercise the worst possible effect on classes of persons whose condition is undoubtedly improving. ["No, no!"] Well, of course, that is a matter of opinion, and I hold my opinion very strongly. No doubt much distress does exist, but in every case where the slightest appearance of undue pressure has been reported to the Government I lost not a moment in taking every step to excite attention to the circumstances, and particularly to incite the Poor Law Inspectors to active measures. I do not wish to make the slightest allusion to my personal exertions; but as the hon. Gentleman refers to the precautions which the Government ought to take, I am compelled to do so. In one district in the County Cork great and sudden pressure existed, and a most charitable lady, whose name can never be mentioned except in connection with some noble action, wrote to ask whether I could give her any information with regard to that part of Ireland. The House will at once understand that I allude to Miss Coutts. I told her, that if she would communicate with a most respectable resident clergyman, Father Leader, I had no doubt he would give her every assistance. I believe she did so, and that the priest in the locality gave her the most satisfactory and complete information. That lady, out of her own pocket, paid the emigration expenses of numerous destitute families, and thus relieved the poverty of the district. That case, and others which I could mention in the
  606
  County Galway, will show, that although I had no funds at my own disposal, no time was lost in taking every step which I was legitimately entitled to adopt for the purpose of attracting attention to cases of destitution. The subject is one well worthy the attention of the House and of Parliament, and I am glad the hon. Member has brought it forward. On the part of the Government, however, I can give him no answer but that which the noble Viscount has already done. I hope the depressing influences of past seasons may be ameliorated in the present year; and I believe we have passed the worst period of pressure. The Poor Law Commissioners write this day that they believe the climax will be reached in a fortnight or three weeks; and I am assured by other persons that, so far from the condition of Ireland deteriorating in the manner that some are disposed to believe, its state is sound and satisfactory; and that if the depressing influences of the time were past, the native energies of the people would rouse themselves, and we might look for an opening season of increased prosperity.

METROPOLITAN RAILWAY SCHEMES.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. HARVEY LEWISsaid, he rose to call the attention of the House to the great number of Railway schemes affecting the Metropolis (upwards of thirty) introduced in the present Session, and to ask the President of the Board of Trade what protection is afforded to the public interests in this matter by the Department over which he presides; and also to move for Copies of any Reports made to the Metropolitan Board of Works by their engineer, or other officers, upon the Railway and other Private Bills affecting the Metropolis, introduced during the present Session. Parliament had intrusted to the Metropolitan Board of Works very extensive powers, and many hon. Members who had inspected the results must admit that the system of main drainage did infinite credit to the Board and its officers. But schemes of another kind might destroy what had already been done, and mar the good effects to be expected from the great works which had already been carried out, if steps were not taken to control them. The subject demanded the attention of the Government, and he was at a loss to conceive what useful steps could be taken unless

  607
  they were taken by the Government. If, at the commencement of railway enterprise, one uniform plan had been adopted controlling; the different schemes, the most direct and speedy means of communication would have been secured and a great waste of money would have been avoided. A new phase of railway enterprise, however, was now presented in respect of lines in the metropolis. It must be admitted that the communication between the West and the East ends of London was as bad as it could be, and required improvement; but, at the same time, it was incumbent on Parliament to do something to prevent the unsatisfactory results which experience showed must always attend the absence of a uniform plan. The engineer of the City Commission of Sewers had not long ago presented a report in which he ably elucidated the advantage of that principle, more especially with regard to the various railway lines that were to meet in Finsbury. People wishing to proceed from one line to another would have there to cross the Circus, and those who came by the Underground would have some seventy steps to climb in order to reach the level of the station of another line. It was the same principle in favour of which the Royal Commissioners on Railways in 1846 reported, stating their opinion that the improvement of the streets of the metropolis consequent upon Railway extensions, as well as regarded utility and beauty as economy and convenience, must depend on the works being executed with one intention and as parts of one well-considered scheme. Mr. Bazalgette, the engineer, had, as recently as the 28th of January last, brought under the notice of the Metropolitan Board of Works the great evils attending the schemes now in contemplation. Mr. Bazalgette enumerated no less than thirty-six schemes of the Session which affected the metropolis. He pointed out that the Great Eastern Railway and branches would pass over the Northern High Level Sewer and the Mid Level Sewer, but being on viaducts would not materially affect them. It would, however, also cut through the sewer at Dalston, and no saving clause was proposed. He pointed out that the Kensington, Knightsbridge, and Metropolitan was throughout below the surface, and would materially affect the drainage of the district; that the Metropolitan, Tottenham, and Hampstead was also beneath the surface, and would have the same effect; that the Midland and London Railway would
  608
  affect the drainage of the district through which it passed; that the East London and Rotherhithe would interfere with the sewerage of the district; and that the London Railway (Victoria Station) would destroy the arch of the sewer in that locality. He had said sufficient to show, that unless there were some body to represent the different interests of the public before Railway Committees, serious damage would accrue to the ratepayers of London. The ratepayers had paid, and for many years would continue to pay, heavy rates for the drainage of the metropolis, but up to the present they had got nothing for their money. They patiently awaited the result of the expenditure of their money. The drainage works were intrusted to men of eminence, and when the reports of the engineers stated that those works were likely to he destroyed by the railways which were projected, it was high time for Her Majesty's Government to take action in the matter. The Board of Trade did not interfere—it would be desirable that they should; and the Metropolitan Board of Works had no locus standi before Committees of the House, but they ought to be empowered by Act of Parliament or by an alteration of the Standing Orders to represent the public in such cases. If something of the kind was not done, London would become perfectly impassable, and he knew too well, from the case of the Metropolitan Railway, how much inconvenience and ruin a single scheme could cause by diverting trade from its usual and accustomed channel. When they considered that London was increasing every day, and that the great arterial means of communication could not increase in the like proportion, it would be apparent that means should be at once taken to insure that all railway schemes affecting the metropolis should come before the Committees in a well-digested and proper form.
  Another Amendment proposed,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "there be laid before this House, Copy of any Reports made to the Metropolitan Board of Works by their engineer, or other officers, upon the Railway and other Private Bills affecting the Metropolis, introduced during the present Session,"
  —instead thereof.
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  MR. TITEsaid, that as a member of the Metropolitan Board of Works, as well as a Member of that House, he felt exceedingly obliged to the hon. Gentleman for calling attention to this subject. In some cases, where new schemes would interfere with the sewage, the Board of Works had the means of appearing with effect before Railway Committees; but as regarded many other schemes, which would seriously affect the public interests, the Board had no authority whatever to interpose. To take a single example: The year before last the North Western Railway obtained powers to make a line with a terminus at the end of Broad Street, which was in the course of construction; and now the Great Eastern was promoting a line to run parallel with that Branch of the North Western for two miles, and finally to end in a station nineteen feet above the street, entirely destroying Finsbury Circus. Nor was that all. Another line—the Metropolitan—had its terminus within a hundred feet of Finsbury Circus, but that was eighteen feet below the surface, making a difference of nearly forty feet between the two railways. Now, a plan might have been devised by which the Great Eastern might have run into the Metropolitan terminus at the same level, thus connecting two great and important systems of railway communication. The scheme of the Great Eastern was much objected to, but there was no one likely to undertake the serious expense— perhaps £2,000 or £3,000—of opposing a great and powerful Company. The new street in Southwark (which cost £500,000) was crossed by one of those bridges to which he had referred the other night, and a similar structure was intended to be built over the new street which the Metropolitan Board hoped to form between Blackfriars and the Mansion House, and which would cost £600,000 or £700,000. That bridge, too, was to be only eighteen feet high, and it would cross a street ninety or a hundred feet wide. The late Sir Robert Peel in his day had referred the whole of similar metropolitan schemes to the Board of Trade; and if the valuable Report of that Board had been carried out, there might now have been a railway completely round the City, as there was at Paris. That great opportunity had, unfortunately, been let slip. Evelyn, in his Diary of 1650, or 1660, remarked that London was the ugliest city in the
  610
  world for its bigness; and it really seemed as if the bigger it grew the uglier it got. The Railway Committees were naturally anxious to consult the convenience of the public; and they therefore sanctioned every undertaking which appeared to them bonâ fide, and which was not opposed; but, unfortunately, there was no one in London empowered to resist any scheme that was put forth with regard to the metropolis. At the present moment a railway bridge was crossing the Thames not more than fifty or sixty feet from the new Blackfriars Bridge now about to be built; and the line would then cross Ludgate Hill, shutting out the only decent view of St. Paul's, and so join in some way the Metropolitan Railway, which was at a lower level. He did really hope that the Government would devise some mode of securing a public supervision of these schemes.
  MR. MASSEYsaid, if his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade were present, he would be precluded by the rules of the House from replying to the hon. Gentleman; but he could say for his right hon. Friend that he was not prepared, after due consideration, while fully admitting the importance of the matter, to suggest any special mode of dealing with the particular class of railways to which the hon. Member had referred. He understood his hon. Friend to lament that before the railway system had yet assumed its present magnitude the Government had not taken the responsibility of laying out the various lines, and presiding over the development of the system. The habits and manners of the people of this country, however, were very different from those of continental nations, and therefore a system which would be suited to the highly centralized forms of Government in other countries, and would there be subjected to no comment, would not be practicable here. If any attempt such as that recommended by the hon. Gentleman were made, the difficulties would be so great that the strongest Government would be obliged to give way, and therefore he did not think the Government were liable to censure for not dealing with the matter. The subject of railway communication with and in the metropolis was one of special concern, and there were now before the House some twenty-five or thirty schemes for occupying sites in the metropolis in connection with railway projects.

  611
  If the House were of opinion that it had become necessary to provide some means of relieving the traffic in the streets of London through the medium of these railways, these various projects would be referred to the Committee of Selection, which, according to its usual practice, would classify, group them, and refer them to a Committee in the usual way. By the time that process was gone through, probably many of them would have disappeared, and the plans which would be ultimately submitted for the consideration of the House would not involve that complication which now rendered the question so difficult to be dealt with. He agreed with the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Tite) that the public interest should be protected by giving powers to some body representing the public interest to appear before those Committees, and to watch their proceedings. He gathered from the speech of the hon. Gentleman that the members of the Metropolitan Board of Works had turned their attention to this particular subject, and he (Mr. Massey) could not conceive that the exercise of a supervision over railway schemes affecting the metropolis could be intrusted to any other body than the Metropolitan Board of Works, which had hitherto done its work so satisfactorily, and which was already in possession of a competent working staff of engineers and law advisers. Especially, however, he would caution the House against intrusting it to a Government Department. The Board of Trade, some time ago, had been charged with the task of making reports on all railway schemes submitted to the House; and though it had duly performed that duty, its reports had never attracted that amount of public attention, or commanded that influence with Committees, which might have been anticipated from from the recommendations of a Government Department. A Standing Order of the House gave to all municipal bodies affected by any railway scheme the right of appearing before a Select Committee but there had been some doubt whether would include the Metropolitan Board of Works, which had come into existence since it was framed. Nothing would be easier, or more in accordance with precedent, than to extend the order so as to embrace that body; and if the House approved the suggestion, he would undertake the duty of revising the Standing Order, so as to give the Board
  612
  of Works a locus standi before Committees which had to consider Railway Bills affecting the metropolis.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, he had taken considerable part in the agitation which had resulted in the setting aside of the Report of the Royal Commission which had been referred to, and which had cleared the way for the accomplishment of that undertaking now called the Metropolitan Railway. The great success of that enterprise had led to a large number of schemes being proposed for the improvement of railway communication in the metropolis. Among those schemes no doubt some would be found likely to be of great service to the metropolis. The question was brought under the notice of a Committee, of which he was Chairman some two years ago, and that Committee suggested that the Metropolitan Board of Works might be empowered to appear, whenever sufficient grounds for their interference appeared to exist, before the Parliamentary Committees. That seemed, in reality, the only mode in which Parliament could deal with this matter. He therefore hoped that the Chairman of Ways and Means would bring up some Amendment of the Standing Orders, by which the Metropolitan Board of Works would have an opportunity of appearing before Committees, and looking after all these schemes.
  MR. NORRISsaid, that in his opinion the plan of the hon. Chairman of Ways and Means would not be a bad way of meeting the difficulty, but he would suggest that before the Standing Order was altered, care should be taken that the body appointed to look after the public interests in these matters would be one exempt from all commercial speculative local interest in the transactions. Commercial speculations and local interests would interfere with the due discharge of their duties before Committees, if confided either to the Corporation of London or the Metropolitan Board of Works. To ensure pure and disinterested action, he thought it would be better to place it in the hands of some Government Department.
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, he thought that the hon. Member for Marylebone (Mr. Harvey Lewis) had done well in bringing the subject before the House. It was desirable that these various schemes should lot be dealt with separately, but that a comprehensive view should be taken of all the proposed communications in the metropolis. Nevertheless, he differed from

  613
  the hon. Member for Abingdon (Mr. Norris), who conceived that it would be expedient to have the control of some Government Department over these schemes; they had had experience as to the inefficiency of such a plan. A Government Department might, like the Board of Trade, collect information for the purpose of laying it before the House; but, looking back at what had happened during the last twenty or thirty years in reference to railways, he thought, that though better lines of communication might in certain instances have been adopted if some general scheme had been laid out, yet leaving the matter to private enterprise had, on the whole, tended to the interests of the country. With respect to metropolitan railways, the suggestion made by the Committee over which the Member for the Tower Hamlets presided, and which was recommended by the Chairman of the Committee of Ways and Means, was well entitled to consideration, with the understanding that the Metropolitan Board of Works should be represented before the Parliamentary Committees only on the ground of public interests, exclusive of private interests. He would not say more on the subject, because when the proposal to alter the Standing Orders should be made, that would be the proper time to discuss the proposed change. To the Motion for the production of the Reports he was not aware of any objection.
  Question put, and negatived.
  Words added.
  Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.
  Ordered,
  That there be laid before this House, Copy of any Reports made to the Metropolitan Board of Works by their engineer, or other officers, upon the Railway and other Private Bills affecting the Metropolis, introduced during the present Session."
  Committee deferred till Monday next.

PRINCE OF WALES (QUEEN'S MESSAGE).
Prince of Wales (Queen's Message) [17th February],—Resolutions reported;

1. "That the annual sum of £40,000 be granted to Her Majesty, out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, towards providing for the Establishment of His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales and Her Royal Highness the Princess Alexandra of Denmark, to commence from the day of the Marriage of their Royal Highnesses."

2. "That the annual sum of £10,000 be granted to Her Majesty, out of the said Consolidated
614
Fund, to be paid quarterly to Her Royal Highness Princess Alexandra, for Her sole and separate use, during the period of their Royal Highnesses' Marriage."

3. "That Her Majesty be enabled to secure to Her Royal Highness the Princess Alexandra, in case she shall survive His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, an annual sum not exceeding £30,000 during Her life, to support Her Royal Dignity.

Resolutions agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. MASSEY, Viscount PALMEBSTON, and Sir GEORGE GREY.
Bill presented, and read 1°. [Bill 30.]

BIRTHS AND DEATHS REGISTRATION (IRELAND) BILL— [BILL 9.]

  COMMITTEE.
  Bill considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Clauses 1 to 8 inclusive agreed to.
  Clause 9 (Salaries to be paid out of Monies provided by Parliament).
  MR. M'MAHONsaid, that the measure might be very gratifying to statistical societies and social science philosophers, but would be of no benefit to the ratepayers. He would therefore move the omission of certain words, in order to secure that the expense of working the Act might be borne, not by the rates, but the Consolidated Fund. The distress in Ireland was at present so great as to render the levy of any fresh impost impossible.
  Amendment proposed, in page 4, line 6, to leave out the words "not herein otherwise provided for."
  MR. GEORGEsaid, he should support the Amendment. The sum of £16,000 was far less than the amount charged on the Consolidated Fund for medical purposes in England. He concurred in the main in what had been said that evening by the hon. Member for Dungarvan (Mr. Maguire) with regard to the distress in Ireland. The distress among the class just above the labourers far exceeded that among the labourers themselves; and it was on the former class that the burden imposed by the Bill would chiefly fall. The rates had been paid cheerfully wherever there were the means of paying them, for the sake of the destitute poor; but the motive in that case would not operate in this. It would be most unwise to peril the success of the useful measure by exposing it to the prejudice of an unjust burden.
  SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, that the Bill would not, as stated, entail a charge of a penny in the pound upon the total

  615
  valuation of Ireland; for, after a careful inquiry, he had ascertained that the charge would be only 5–16ths of a penny. With regard to the alleged pressure of local taxation in Ireland, he found also that the average of the taxation amounted to a fraction more than 2s. in the pound, or 10 per cent; whereas England was taxed to the extent of 20, and Scotland 10 per cent. The burden in Ireland, therefore was not so very extravagant as the Committee had been led to suppose. Calculations had been made that the probable number of births and deaths in the course of the year upon a population of 5,764,000 would be 193,514 births and 132,756 deaths. That was upon an average of years, and might be considered as very nearly an accurate estimate. But as by Returns just presented the number of persons who had emigrated from Ireland during the last ten years exceeded 1,200,000, and emigration still continued, the future number of births and deaths might be less than he had mentioned. Upon that calculation, however, if the registrars, as he proposed, were paid 1s. for every entry, and the superintendent registrars 2d. out the Consolidated Fund, the charge under the Bill would not exceed £16,300 per annum. The Government could not possibly allow that amount to be taken from the Consolidated Fund, and he hoped, therefore, the hon. Member Would not ruin the Bill by persisting in the Motion, and would not make a stand about 5–16ths of a penny. It was not a measure, as had been said, for merely social science purposes, but, on the contrary, was one of great national importance.
  COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he thought that the Bill, inasmuch as it made no provision for the registration of marriages, would be practically valueless. He could not regard it, therefore, as anything more than a Bill for raising £16,000 from the distressed classes of Ireland. He did not see why such statistical pedantry should not be paid for out of the Imperial exchequer.
  SIR EDWARD GROGANsaid, the great complaint in Ireland was the rapid and enormous increase of the county rates. His objection to the Bill was that it proposed to put an additional burden of £500 a year upon each county. He was, however, quite ready to agree to the proposition of the right hon. Baronet as to charging the expenses of registration of births and deaths on the poor rates in Ireland, if he would, on the other hand, agree to allow
  616
  one half the charges for workhouse, schoolmasters, and medical officers to be paid by Parliament in ease
  of the rate, as was the case in England. Last year the sums asked for these purposes amounted to no less than £130,000. £16,000 a year was a small sum, certainly, for the working of a useful Act; but he would ask, looking at the fact that the Poor Law Act was of recent introduction in Ireland, whether it was wise to divert any portion of the funds raised for the relief of the poor to a purpose foreign to the object of the Poor Relief Act?
  MR. BAGWELLsaid, he should support the Bill, which, he was glad to find, followed the English Act. He always liked to see the two countries placed on the same footing as far as legislation was concerned. The expenses of the working of the Registration Bill were trifling, and would never be felt. He hoped to see the day when Irish Members would cease to plead in formâ pauperis in that House. No doubt distress existed in Ireland, but it ought to be met there, and not paraded before the country as it had been.
  MR. HENNESSYsaid, he would be glad to see the Bill passed, because he thought it was a good measure, but the Amendment might be adopted with advantage. The Bill, as it stood, did not follow the English practice. In England £37,200 was voted by Parliament for the superintendent registrars and registrars. By the present Bill it was proposed to impose £16,000 upon the counties of Ireland for the payment of the same classes of officers.
  SIR ROBERT PEELexplained that the superintendent registrars were to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund, and the registrars out of the poor rates.
  MR. HENNESSYsaid, that was not the English system. In England both the superintendent registrars and the registrars were paid out of funds voted by Parliament.
  MR. LONGFIELDsaid, he thought there never was a juster claim made upon the House. It was very well for a wealthy gentleman to recommend Irish Members to keep their distresses to themselves; but he forgot they had been patiently listening for several nights to the detail of English distress in Lancashire. They had heard of fifty-four unions in Ireland where the rates were 3s. in the pound, and nine in which the rates were 5s., without any rate in aid. He thought, therefore, the House

  617
  should listen to the appeals of Irish Member on behalf of their distressed constituents. Did any body suppose that £16,000 a year would represent all the expense entailed by this Bill? By Sections 21 and 22 the guardians of unions were to provide depots for the safe keeping of registers, according to a plan approved by the Registrar General, and who could tell what the expense of those offices would be, and the cost of keeping them up?
  MR. HASSARDsaid, he wished to know what benefits the Bill would confer. The right hon. Baronet had spoken of its value in the succession to property, but there was nothing in the Bill to make certificates of registration evidence.
  MR. MAGUIREsaid, the hon Member for Clonmel (Mr. Bagwell) had read the Irish Members a lecture. Would the hon. Member carry out his own theory of equal laws for England and Ireland, for instance, in the case of education? Would he assist other Irish Members to obtain back their own Legislature in Ireland, when they could effectually confine their distresses and grievances to their own country? There was such distress in Ireland that any addition of taxation would be felt as a heavy grievance. There was no desire to imperil the Bill, but he did hope the Amendment would be adopted.
  MR. BAGWELLsaid, he never had been favourable to the repeal of the Union, and never should be.
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, he did not rise to discuss the questions of national education or of repeal of the Union, or of the distress in Lancashire, except so far as to remark, that whatever the distress in Lancashire might be, no demand for aid from the Consolidated Fund bad been made. He was very desirous that a Registration Bill should be passed. The hon. Member for the King's County (Mr. Hennessy) was quite under a mistake. They were really debating whether they should charge on the poor rate in Ireland that which was charged on the local rates in England, and on the Consolidated Fund for Ireland that which was borne by the same fund for England. That was what the Bill intended; and if that object was not clearly carried out as the provisions stood, he undertook that they should be amended. He put it, therefore, to the Irish Members whether it was worth while to frustrate the measure, the advantages of which they were anxious to secure to their country, by insisting on
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  a proposal to which the English and Scotch Members would never consent.
  COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he was ready to accept the Bill if the Government would ensure to the ratepayers of Ireland the same powers as ratepayers in England possessed with reference to registration of births and deaths. At the same time, he wished to take that occasion to deprecate eulogies of emigration from Ireland. To his mind an emigration was almost as sad an event for that country as a death. He hoped that the population of Ireland would increase, and that the means of supporting that population would increase also.
  MR. MONSELLsaid, he concurred with the hon. and gallant Member for the Queen's County (Colonel Dunne), in thinking that the local authorities in Ireland should be placed on a footing with the local authorities in England and Scotland with reference to the question. If the ratepayers of Ireland must pay the expenses of enforcing this measure, why should they not have the power of appointing the registrars?
  CAPTAIN DAWSONsaid, he could not see why the collection of what were called vital statistics should not be paid out of the Imperial exchequer as well as agricultural statistics and the decennial census returns; but, at the same time, he should be sorry to endanger the passing of the necessary measure.
  MR. VANCEsaid, the Bill violated the very principle claimed for it by the hon. Member for Clonmel (Mr. Bagwell)— that Ireland ought to have the benefit of equal laws with the rest of the kingdom.
  MR. HENNESSYsaid, he would accept the challenge of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Duchy. The question was, out of what fund were the registrars in Ireland to be paid? The sum of £37,200 was voted in last year's Estimates for the fees and expenses of the superintendent registrars and registrars of births, deaths, and marriages in England. He wished, therefore, to know whether the Government were prepared to propose in their next Estimates that a proportionate sum should be voted for the registrars in Ireland. [Sir ROBERT PEEL: No.] Under these circumstances he should feel bound to support the Amendment of his hon. Friend.
  MR. BUTTsaid, he would support the clause in its then shape, as it was an exact copy of the English Act.
  LORD NAASsaid, he thought there was great force in the argument from the analogy of the English Act; but why should not that analogy be carried out by giving those who paid the registrars the power of appointing them? If that proposal was acceded to by the right hon. Baronet, it might be well to limit the maximum payment, and then leave the boards of guardians to get the work done for less if they could.
  COLONEL DICKSONsaid, he trusted the Secretary for Ireland would consent to the measure being assimilated in every respect to the English and Scotch Bills.
  LORD JOHN BROWNEsaid, that he thought they were entitled to receive an assurance, that if the English registrars received anything from the Government, the Irish registrars should receive a like sum.
  SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, he had thought it best to adopt the principle of appointing medical officers as the registrars; but he had no objection to modify the clause to this extent—that the guardians should appoint the registrars, preference being given to medical officers.
  MR. HENNESSYsaid, he would put it to the right hon. Baronet to give a more distinct answer to the question as to what became of the £16,300 voted in the Estimates for superintendent registrars and registrars of births, marriages, and deaths.
  SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, he believed the sum had reference to the expenses incurred by the superintendent registrars.
  SIR EDWARD GROGANsaid, he willingly assented to the principle of analogy between that and the English Act, but insisted that it should be carried out. If it was found, on inquiry, that any part of the £16,400 went to the English registrars, would they have a similar credit for Ireland?
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, the terms of the Bill, financially, were intended by the Government to be identical with those of the English Act.
  MR. M'MAHONsaid, the English Act was for registering births, deaths, and marriages. Give them a register of marriages, and they would not object. The present measure was of no profit or use to the people of Ireland. It would be of use for the decennial census for Imperial purposes, just as a return of emigration, and so on, but it was of no value to the people. Give them marriages, a record of which would be of service as touching
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  kinship, heirship, and title to property, and they would not object to pay their proportion. He would press his Amendment to a division.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 38; Noes 23: Majority 15.
  Clause agreed to; as were also Clauses 9 to 17, inclusive.
  Clause 18 (Registrars' Districts).
  LORD NAASsaid, that power was given in the English Act to enable boards of guardians to divide the unions into registration districts in the manner they thought most convenient for registering purposes. Great inconvenience would arise from the clause in its present shape, and he therefore proposed to leave out from the beginning to the word "Act" in line 19, and insert the words—
  "The guardians of every union shall, on or before the 1st of January, 1864, divide the union into such and so many districts as they, subject to the approval of the Registrar General, shall see fit."
  Amendment proposed, in page 6, line 17, to leave out the words "Each dispensary district."
  MR. LONGFIELDsaid, he should support the Amendment, on the ground that as the guardians had to pay and levy the rates to meet the expenses, they were the proper parties for dividing the unions into districts.
  SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, the Government thought it better to adopt the dispensary districts, which were well known to the people, than to give powers to boards of guardians to divide unions as they thought proper. By the former plan they obtained a uniformity, which would not be the case if the matter were left to the arbitrary decision of each board of guardians.
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, that as the dispensary districts existed in Ireland, and not in England, the Government felt that the existing arrangement ought to be made use of rather than a new one.
  COLONEL VANDELEURsaid, he agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that the dispensary districts were well defined, and ought to be adopted. If the election of the officers were left to the guardians, there would be canvassing from one end of the county to the other, and it would lead to a great deal of confusion.
  MR. MONSELLsaid, Sir Richard Graham's experience showed that medical officers were not the best registrars. On the simple ground that the English and Scotch ratepayers had the power of appointing the registrars, he insisted that their appointment in Ireland should be vested in the local authorities.
  SIR GEORGE GREYreminded the Committee that the noble Lord's Amendment did not touch the question of appointment.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 44; Noes 14: Majority 30.
  Clause agreed to; as were also Clauses 19 to 22, inclusive.
  Clause 23 (Appointment of Registrars).
  LORD NAASsaid, he should move to leave out from the beginning to "district," in line 35, and to insert the following:—
  "The guardians of every union shall appoint a person with such qualifications as the Registrar General may, by any general rule declare to be necessary, to be Registrar of Births and Deaths in each district and in every case of vacancy in the office of Registrar shall forthwith fill up the vacancy."
  MR. HENNESSYsaid, he should support the clause as it stood, as he regarded the claims of the doctors to be paramount.
  SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, he must oppose the Amendment. Medical officers had been selected, not only because they were fittest, but because he believed that the appointment, as a general rule, would give most satisfaction to the people of Ireland.
  COLONEL DICKSONsupported the Amendment.
  MR. MONSELLsaid, as the registrars in Scotland were not medical men, he did not see why they should be of that profession in Ireland.
  SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, he followed the opinion of Major Graham, who considered that the registrars should be medical men.
  LORD NAASsaid, Major Graham expressed himself in favour of medical men as against the constabulary, but he said nothing against other persons being employed.
  MR. M'MAHONsupported the Amendment.
  COLONEL VANDELEURopposed it, be-
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  lieving that if it were agreed to, very unfit persons would sometimes be elected.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clauses 24 to 27 agreed to.
  Clause 28 (Superintendent Registrars and Registrars to reside in their Districts).
  MR. HASSARDproposed an Amendment directing the Registrar to appoint the days and hours during which he would attend at his residence or place of business for registration of births and deaths.
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. BAGWELLproposed in line 30 to insert after "business," "Provided always that dispensary houses in the Registrar's districts may, with consent of the dispensary committee, be used as registering offices."
  Amendment agreed to.
  Clause agreed to; as was also Clause 29.
  Clause 30 (Registrar to learn and register Births and Deaths).
  MR. M'MAHONsaid, he thought the period for giving notice to the Registrar was not long enough.
  SIR ROBERTPEEL observed, that whereas in England the period allowed for actual registration was forty-two days, Ireland it was to be three months.
  Clause agreed to.
  Remaining Clauses agreed to.
  Bill reported; as amended, to be considered on Monday, 2nd March.

  LONDON COAL AND WINE DUTIES BILL.
  London Coal and Wine Duties, — Acts considered in Committee:—
  (In the Committee.)
  Resolved, That the Chairman be directed to move the House, That leave be given to bring in a Bill for further continuing and appropriating the London Coal and Wine Duties.
  Resolution reported.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. MASSEY, Mr. COWPER, and Mr. PEEL.
  Bill presented, and read 1°. [Bill 27.]

  EDUCATION OF FACTORY CHILDREN BILL.
  Bill to make further provisions for the Education of Children employed in Factories and other Works, ordered to be brought in by Mr. BAXTER and MR. BUCHANAN.
  Bill presented, and read 1°. [Bill 28.]

  BLEACHING AND DYELWG WORKS ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
  Bill to amend the Act for placing the Employment of Women, Young Persons, and Children in Bleaching Works and Dyeing Works under the regulations of the Factories Act, ordered to be

  623
  brought in by Mr. BAXTER, Mr. HIBBERT, and Mr. CRUM-EWING.
  Bill presented, and read 1°. [Bill 29.]

  BARRISTERS (IRELAND) Bill.
  Bill to amend the Law relating to the Admission of Barristers to practise in Ireland, ordered to be brought in by Mr. HENNESSY, Mr. MAGUIRE, and Colonel DICKSON.
  Bill presented, and read 1°. [Bill 31.]

  ORDNANCE—SELECT COMMITTEE.
  Ordnance,—Select Committee appointed, "to inquire into the expenditure incurred since the beginning of 1858 on various natures of improved Ordnance, whether obtained by contract or manufactured in the Public Departments, and into the results obtained by such expenditure."
  And on February 26th Committee nominated, as follow:—Mr. MONSELL, Sir GEORGE LEWIS, General PEEL, Captain JERVIS, Mr. BARING, Sir FREDERIC SMITH, Mr. DODSON, Sir JOHN HAY, Lord ROBERT CECIL, Mr. LAIRD, Major O'REILLY, Mr. BEECROFT, Sir MORTON PETO, and Mr. VIVIAN.
  House adjourned at a quarter before One o'clock, till Monday next.