Commons Sitting of 13 February 1863

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBER SWORN.—For Cambridge Borough, Francis Sharp Powell, esquire.
RESOLUTIONS IN COMMITTEE.—Post Office Savings Banks; Customs Acts (Tobacco Duties); Drainage (Ireland) [Stamps].
PUBLIC BILLS. — First Reading. — Innkeepers* Liability (No. 1) [Bill 18]; Municipal Elections [Bill 19].

TENURE OF LAND (IRELAND).

  QUESTION.
  MR. MAGUIREsaid, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce during the present Session any measure with a view to amend and improve the laws relating to the occupation and tenure of land in Ireland, and to insure to the tenant an adequate protection for his outlay of capital in improvements?
  SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, it was not the intention of the Government to introduce any measure during the present Session upon the subject to which the hon. Member had referred, it being their opinion that the Bill of 1860 had effected a final settlement of the long-agitated question, and they did not feel disposed to reopen it.

COLLIERY ACCIDENTS.—QUESTION.
MR. WYLDsaid, he rose to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, If, at any future coroners' inquests which may be held upon the sufferers by colliery accidents, the Government will authorize the attendance of a legal officer to watch the proceedings upon the part of the Crown?
SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, the Government did not propose to establish any general rule with that object. The great majority of colliery accidents did not require it, and in certain special cases practical mining engineers had been sent to attend the inquests.

CIRCUIT REGULATION COMMISSION.

  QUESTION.
  MR. ARTHUR MILLSsaid, he desired to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to take any steps in pursuance of the recommendations of the Circuit Regulation Commission, or in any way to alter the existing divisions of the Judges' Circuits?
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, it had not been thought necessary to make any change in the circuits generally. But it had been thought expedient that a change should be made with respect to the North-

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  ern Circuit, owing to the great amount of business connected with it, and measures were in contemplation with a view to a more equal distribution of business. The details of the arrangement were under the consideration of the Lord Chancellor, who was in communication with the Judges on the subject.

PRIVATE BILLS.—QUESTION.
MR. ARTHUR MILLSsaid, he had to ask the President of the Board of Trade, Whether the reference to the Committee about to be appointed on Private Bill legislation will include the question of the expediency or otherwise of empowering Committees on Private Bills to award costs in certain cases?
MR. MILNER GIBSONsaid, that if it should please the House to appoint the Committee of which he had given notice, there would, he thought, be no doubt that the question of the awarding of costs would come within the scope of the order of reference.

SUPPLY.
Order for Committee read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

INCLOSURE OF CROWN LANDS.

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  MR. PEACOCKEsaid, he rose to move, as an Amendment, an Address to the Crown, with a view to the prevention of the enclosure of Crown lands within fifteen miles of the metropolis. Parliament had always looked with a jealous eye upon Bills for the enclosure of waste lands, so as to prevent, if possible, the enclosure of lands adjacent to the metropolis and to populous towns, which were so conducive to the health as well as recreation of the inhabitants. Formerly, while other Inclosure Bills were private Bills, Bills which sought to enclose lands within a certain distance of populous towns, were Bills of a public nature; but in consequence of the great expense involved in passing private Bills, all Inclosure Bills were made public Bills. The result was that the House ceased to have any information or warning when lands were sought to be enclosed within a certain distance of populous places. Lands coming under the head of Crown Lands had been enclosed in the case of Hainault Forest, by the 14 & 15 Vict., c. 43, and hon. Members had,
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  he hoped, given their assent to the measure legalizing the enclosure rather because they were ignorant of what its effects would be than because they were insensible to the injury which it inflicted upon the poor people up to whose dwellings the forest extended. He had, he added, moved for certain Returns with a view, among other things, of ascertaining the extent of forest rights; and so long as those rights were respected Epping Forest would remain what it now was, a tract of land extending over 10,000 acres, and affording the means of recreation and the preservation of health to the inhabitants of the eastern portions of the metropolis. When he took into account the sums of money for which rights so valuable had been in several instances disposed of, he was, he confessed, not a little astonished at the extraordinary nature of the bargains which had been made. The return to which he alluded extended over five pages, but he would take only four cases to illustrate what had been done. He found that in 1856 the Crown rights over 1,891 acres of land were sold to Lord Wellesley for £1,891; in 1857 the rights over 325 acres to Messrs. Lambert and Dane for £1,353; while in 1858 the rights over 695 acres were sold for £3,349, and in 1860 the rights over 1,377 acres for £5,468—making a total of 2.832 acres sold for about £11,000. The House would, he thought, concur with him in thinking that amount a most inadequate compensation for the loss which the public experienced in being deprived of the privilege of enjoying themselves on those grounds. It should also be borne in mind that the land thus enclosed was situated in the immediate vicinity of those poor people in the north-east of London who, with the exception of Victoria Park, had not a single open space for recreation. From that circumstance, in conjunction with the fact that the population of London had between 1851 and 1861 increased eighteen per cent, or by 441,753 persons, he did not think he should be charged with having attached undue importance to the subject in having brought it under the notice of the House. He should like to know what would be the feeling of hon. Members if they heard that a portion of Richmond Park was to be filched away in the manner he had described. Recently, when a measure was proposed to enclose Hampstead Heath, it was loudly protested against, and yet it was only a recreation ground for the com-

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  paratively rich. With what indignation, then, ought they not to look upon the gradual encroachments on Hainault and Epping Forests, which were a source of health and a source of recreation for the densely-packed labouring classes of the metropolis? He would therefore conclude by moving as an Amendment—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to give directions that no sales to facilitate Inclosures be made of Crown Lands or Crown Forestal Rights within fifteen miles of the metropolis."
  MR. COXsaid, he rose to second the Motion. The reason why it had been possible for encroachments to be made upon the forests of Epping and Hainault during the last few years was, that at the time of the passing of the Copyhold In-closure Bill it was provided that notices should be given to all private individuals interested in the land proposed to be enclosed; but no provision was contained in the Act which made it necessary that any notice should be given to persons who might have merely public rights. In the last Session, without any notice whatever being given to the public, a Bill was brought in by the Secretary of the Home Department to carry into effect a provisional order of the Inclosure Commissioners. It spoke of certain lands in the parish of Chigwell, in the county of Essex, and but for a constituent of his who lived at Chigwell, it would never have been discovered that it was proposed to deprive the public of the use of between 400 and 500 acres which they had enjoyed from time immemorial. The Bill was referred to a Select Committee, and so strong a case was made out, that a great part of the intended deprivation of the public was prevented. It was clear the Copyhold Inclosure Act, having been passed while Epping was still a forest, did not apply to it now that it had been disafforested, and more watchfulness ought to be exercised over the sales of land. The sales of these Crown rights, while adding but little to the revenue of the country, acted injuriously upon the interests of the public, and he therefore thought it was quite proper and right that the Motion of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peacocke) should be carried, and a stop put to the filching away of these lands from the people.
  Amendment proposed,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "an humble
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  Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to give directions that no sales to facilitate Inclosures be made of Crown Lands or Crown Forestal Rights, within fifteen miles of the Metropolis,"
  —instead thereof.
  MR. PEELsaid, that although the Motion of the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Peacocke) was in general terms, it appeared by his speech that it had reference exclusively to the Forest of Epping, and he did not know of any forest near London except Epping over which the Crown possessed forestal rights. Allusion had been made to Hainault Forest; but that was disafforested some years ago, when the Crown was awarded a separate estate, whereupon all its forestal interests came to an end. With regard to Epping Forest, he could not understand the hon. Gentleman dwelling on the supposed sacrifice of Crown property by the sale of the interest of the Crown over 3,000 or 4,000 acres for £10,000 or £11,000. The hon. Member must greatly overrate or misconceive the nature of the interest of the Crown in Epping Forest. The Crown did not possess any part of the soil of that Forest. The Forest belonged entirely to private persons, as lords of manors, and to those persons who had received grants from the lords of manors. The only interest possessed by the Crown was a simple forestal right of ranging deer over the lands, He need not say that such a right, so far as the revenue of the Crown was concerned, was not of the slightest value. There were no deer in the forest, and in the present state of things it would not be possible to make Epping a deer forest without the greatest inconvenience. The course which had been taken with regard to that right was clearly explained in a letter from Mr. Kennedy, the Commissioner of Woods, dated April, 1853, and published in the Report of the Inclosure Commissioners for that year. Mr. Kennedy said—
  "I have always entertained, and still entertain, an opinion that if it were possible to disafforest Epping, to prevent subdivision by enclosure, and without cost to the Crown or the public to preserve it for the enjoyment of the public, it would be a desirable object; but, having regard to the great difficulties, I reluctantly come to the conclusion that the course indicated by the solicitors, that of bringing to sale the right of the Crown, is probably the only course which can practically be adopted; and if your Lordships should concur in the propriety of this course, I am of opinion that its adoption ought not to be delayed, as Ep-

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  ping Forest can only be a source of expense, and its present condition, social and economical, is in the highest degree unsatisfactory."
  In consequence of that recommendation of the Commissioner of Woods, the Treasury sanctioned from time to time sales of the interest of the Crown in the land, and the Returns to which the hon. Gentleman had referred showed the extent to which these sales had been carried up to the present time. He might mention that in all cases the rights of the Crown were sold to the owners of the soil. The hon. Gentleman proposed that in future those sales should be discontinued, and he did so not from any desire to preserve the forestal rights of the Crown for the sake of their legitimate object, or from taking any interest in those forestal rights, but from a desire to preserve the forest in which the Crown rights existed not now over 9,000 acres, but over only about 2,500 acres, as an open forest for the use of the people. The course which the hon. Gentleman recommended should be taken was not fair either to the Crown or to the owners of the soil. Let him tell the hon. Gentleman that to attain his object it was not sufficient merely that the Crown should abstain from selling its rights, because the right of the Crown was simply to feed deer over the forest; and if that right was not exercised, it became obsolete. ["No, no!"] Practically, that was so. However that might be, the hon. Gentleman would admit that if the rights of the Crown were to be preserved, any invasion of them must be resisted; and the only mode by which the Crown could resist encroachments would be by taking proceedings in the Court of Exchequer. There were instances to show that proceedings of this kind were attended with very serious expense to the Crown. As regards the owners of the soil, the adoption of this measure would change the nature of the easement which the Crown had over the land, and would be an endeavour to use the forestal rights of the Crown as an instrument for converting the property of private persons into a public park. On these grounds he must oppose the adoption of this Address.
  SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, that in the course of the discussion on the enclosure of Chigwell Forest last year it was suggested, very reasonably, by the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr. Peacocke) that whenever a scheme received the sanction of the Inclosure Commissioners, dealing with a piece of land within fifteen miles of the
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  metropolis or within specified distances of other large towns, the attention of the House ought to be specifically directed to the fact, in order that it might not in ignorance of the facts give its sanction to enclosures to which objections on these grounds could be brought. He accordingly wrote to the Inclosure Commissioners, requesting them in their Reports to call special attention to enclosures of this particular nature, and received a reply from them in July last, undertaking that this course would be followed on all future occasions. Under these circumstances, as long as the law remained in its present state, he thought it would be unwise to pledge the Crown to refuse its assent to what might actually be sanctioned by Parliament.
  MR. BUXTONsaid, the importance of the subject was much greater than might be supposed; in fact, there were few questions more nearly affecting the happiness and welfare of a large share of the metropolitan population. He differed from the hon. Member in thinking that the whole of Epping Forest ought to be preserved; there were nearly 10,000 acres which might well be enclosed. The highest points should all be retained in the hands of the Government, but there was a vast extent of swampy ground which might be sold, and would prove of great value, if not for agricultural purposes, at least for building ground. The population of the Tower Hamlets exceeded 650,000, and consisted of persons whose whole lives were spent in arduous work, and who had no opportunity of obtaining change of country air except by doing down to Epping Forest, as Victoria Park lay so far to the north-east that it was virtually inaccessible. Last year no less than 76,000 persons went down by excursion trains, in addition to multitudes who travelled by the ordinary trains at exceedingly moderate fares. Having lived for years near the main road to Epping Forest, he had seen thousands of conveyances going to and fro, and he knew no more delightful spectacle than to witness mechanics and hard-worked tradespeople enjoying the delightful air and scenery on Sundays, nearly always accompanied by their wives and families. The objection on the score of expense to the Crown would be removed by the course which he suggested, while the claims preferred on behalf of neighbouring proprietors were really not founded on reason, the proper-

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  ties they now held having been acquired subject to forestal rights existing for 800 years. The slight inconvenience to proprietors ought not to be put in the scale against the wonderful benefits to the population of East London. He hoped the Government would take up the subject, and prevent these natural parks from being destroyed.
  MR. LOCKEsaid, it was obvious that if the Crown would only remain quiet and not part with its forestal rights, Epping Forest would not be closed, but the public and the inhabitants of the metropolis would continue to enjoy the privileges which had been theirs for centuries past. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Treasury had said, that if the Crown declined to interfere, its rights would be lost. In that the hon. Gentleman was entirely wrong, for there came in the old principle of law, Nullum tempus occurrit legi. The rights of the Crown always exist, no matter what might be done by its subjects derogating from those rights. Therefore, what was asked was simply that the Crown should hold its hand, and that it would not disafforest any part of Epping Forest. The consequence would be, that the public would continue to enjoy their accustomed rights. Who were the proprietors of the forest? It was said the lords of the manor; but the lord of the manor was not the lord of the soil. He had the right of taking game and so forth over the wastes, but he could not plough the ground. He presumed that the forest was in the nature of a common, and that the inhabitants of the neighbourhood had the privilege of sending their cattle there to graze, beyond which everybody had a right to use the place for the purpose of recreation and enjoyment. He should give his support with the greatest satisfaction for the proposition of the hon. Member for Maldon; and, if he divided, should vote with him.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, whenever a private Member attempted to bring forward a Motion affecting the public interests, he was sure to be told by some one in authority that he was wrong in the procedure he had adopted. But if the hon. Gentleman took any other course than that which he had followed, he would certainly have gone on a wildgoose chase. It was not competent to a private Member to introduce a Bill bearing upon such a question as that now before the House without obtaining the previous assent of the Crown. That was the only constitutional course. He hoped
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  the Motion of the hon. Gentleman would be agreed to, and he thanked him for having introduced it, as in the hands of the metropolitan Members it might be made the occasion of imputations against them.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, I think it is desirable that the House should pay particular attention to the terms of the Motion. The Motion proposes, by a rule as rigid as the House can make it, to prevent the Crown, from taking any steps by the sale of its forestal rights for permitting the enclosure of lands within fifteen miles of the metropolis. It is one question whether certain lands that are now open, and that are well adapted for the purpose, should continue open with a view to the recreation of the inhabitants of the environs of the metropolis; but I beg to observe to the House that it is quite another question whether the House should by an Address bind itself and the Crown to permit no sale of forestal rights whatever, and therefore to allow of no enclosure whatever, so far as they are concerned, within a radius of fifteen miles from the metropolis. If the hon. Member desires that the Crown should use a proper and careful discretion in parting with those rights, in order that those rights may not be parted with in a manner injurious to the comfort of the population, that is one thing. But what I ask the House is that they will leave it to the Crown to exercise that discretion in parting with those rights in cases where it can be done in justice to the local population—in cases where the proposal is on the part of the public at large to realize funds for the benefit of the State, and where those funds can be realized without any hardship to the inhabitants of the neighbourhood. The question is not at all whether all these lands are to be enclosed and the public are to be excluded from that enjoyment of them which they have had hitherto, but whether all discretion is to be taken from the advisers of the Crown and a rigid rule is to be laid down that no matter how useless any portion of these lands may be to the people in the neighbourhood, and no matter how considerable a prize may by their sale be obtained for the benefit of the State, they shall not be sold because they are within a radius of fifteen miles of the metropolis.
  MR. HENLEYsaid, that if he thought the proposition of his hon. Friend would do what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said it would do, he would not support it;

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  but, on the contrary, he thought it would not have such effect. So far as he understood the thing it was this, that no subsequent dealing with the land in question should take place without the consent of the Crown, because the Crown having forestal rights, the Inclosure Commissioners would be very loath, and he believed it would be difficult in law for them to do it, to enclose such land without the consent of the Crown. The consequence would be, that if there were a proper case made out for enclosure, a case which could be defended in that House, the enclosure would take place, and the Crown would get its allotment in place of its right, and that allotment could be turned into money. There would, then, be the great security, that no dealing would take place in the locality referred to—a large portion of the land in which on all hands it was deemed desirable should be kept open— that no dealing with it should take place without the full consent of the Crown. That would be a great security. The right hon. Gentleman opposite shook his head, but he did not think the Inclosure Commissioners, or if they did that the House, would confirm it—frame a provisional order for enclosure without the consent of the Crown.
  SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, he could hardly agree with the right hon. Gentleman who had spoken last, for the proposal went to the extent of saying that no sales whatever should take place of forest land within fifteen miles of the metropolis. He would suggest that some qualifying words should be introduced, for he apprehended that what the House meant was, that no sale should take place where the land was for the benefit of the public, but that where the land was not for the benefit of the public it might be sold. But under the present wording it was clear that no sale could take place under any circumstances whatever.
  MR. MALINSsaid, he heartily concurred in the general proposition of the hon. Member, that a considerable restriction should be placed on the alienation of waste laud; still, he could not vote for the Motion as it stood. He agreed with the hon. Member for Maidstone (Mr. Buxton) that the Crown should exercise a discretion in this matter—that it should select certain spots to be kept open, but that other portions might be enclosed with advantage to everybody. He would suggest the withdrawal of the present Motion and that the
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  hon. Member should reintroduce it in a modified form, so as to remove the objection now felt by many Members of the House to the proposition in its present form.
  VISCOUNT ENFIELDsaid, he hoped the hon. Member would not withdraw his Motion. If from past experience they could assume that any discretion would be exercised as to the lands to be enclosed, he would not recommend the hon. Gentleman to persevere. If he were not mistaken, no lands could be enclosed over which rights of common had been exercised for fifty or sixty years, unless by special Act of Parliament; and with regard to Epping Forest, those rights had been enjoyed. In addition, he believed that persons who purchased such lands did so with serious responsibility, because if those lands were parted with without the sanction of an Act of Parliament, the lands might be allotted within twenty years, and the purchasers might suffer. Therefore, upon every ground, whether as regarded the public or individual purchasers, he should support the Motion.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  The House divided:—Ayes 73; Noes 113: Majority 40.
  Words added.
  Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to give directions that no sales to facilitate Inclosures be made of Crown Lands or Crown Forestal Rights within fifteen miles of the Metropolis.

  AYES.

  Bagwell, J.

  Crawford, R. W. (London)

  Baines, E.

  Baring, rt. hon. Sir F. T. (Portsmouth)

  Dalglish, R.

  Davie, Sir H. R. F. (Hadd.)

  Beaumont, W. B. (Northumberland, S.)

  Davie, Col. F. (Barnst.)

  Beaumont, S. A. (Newe.)

  Dering, Sir E. C.

  Booth, Sir R. G.

  Dodson, J. G.

  Bouverie, hon. P. P. (Berks)

  Dunbar, Sir W.

  Ewart, J. C. (Liverp.)

  Bruce, H. A. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Ewing, H. E. Crum

  Gavin, Major

  Calthorpe, hon. F. H. W. G.

  Gibson, rt. hon. T. M.

  Gilpin, C. (Northamp.)

  Cardwell, rt. hon. E.

  Gladstone, rt. hon. W.

  Castlerosse, Viscount

  Glyn, G. C. (Kendall)

  Childers, H. C. E.

  Glyn, G. G. (Shaftesb.)

  Churchill, Lord A. S.

  Gower, hon. F. L. (Bod.)

  Clive, G. (Hereford)

  Gregson, S.

  Craufurd, E. H. J. (Ayr)

  Grenfell, H. R. (Stoke)

  319

  Grey, rt. hon. Sir G. (Morpeth)

  Palmerston, Viscount

  Patten, Col. W.

  Haliburton, T. C.

  Peel, rt. hon. Sir R. (Tamworth)

  Headlam, rt. hon. T. E.

  Henniker, Lord

  Peel, rt. hon. F. (Bury)

  Herbert, rt. hon. A. A.

  Pinney, Col.

  Hodgson, R. (Tynem.)

  Potter, E.

  Hutt, rt. hon. W.

  Puller, C. W. G.

  Johnstone, J. J. H. (Dumf.)

  Ricardo, O.

  Russell, A. (Tavistock)

  Kinglake, J. A. (Roches.)

  Sheridan, R. B. (Dorch.)

  Leighton, Sir B.

  Spooner, R.

  Lewis, rt. hon. Sir G. C.

  Warner, E.

  Lowe, rt. hon. R.

  White, L. (Kiddermin.)

  Mackinnon, W. A. (Lymington)

  Willoughby, Sir H.

  Winnington, Sir T. E.

  MacKinnon, W. A.(Rye)

  Wood, W. (London)

  Malins, R.

  Woods, H. (Wigan)

  Marshall, W.

  Wyvill, M.

  Martin, P. W. (Roches.)

  Milnes, R. M.

  TELLERS.

  Montgomery, Sir G.

  Mr. Knatchbull-Hugessen,

  Morgan, O.(Monmouth.)

  Nicol, W.

  Mr. Brand

  Packe, Col. (Lincoln.S.)

  NOES.

  Adderley, rt. hon. C. B.

  Hadfield, G.

  Ayrton, A. S.

  Hamilton, Lord Claud (Tyrone)

  Aytoun, R. S.

  Bazley, T.

  Hamilton, Major (Linlithgow)

  Beecroft, G. S.

  Bowyer, Sir G.

  Hanbury, R.

  Bridges, Sir B. W.

  Hardy, G.(Leominster)

  Brooks, R.

  Hay, Sir J. C. D.

  Butt, I.

  Henley, rt. hon. J. W.

  Buxton, C.

  Hennessy, J. P.

  Caird, J.

  Hill, hon. R. C.

  Cairns, Sir H. M'Calmont

  Hopwood, J. T.

  Ingham, R.

  Clifford, C. C. (I. W.)

  Kinnaird, hon. A. F.

  Clifton, Sir R. J.

  Knatchbull.W. F. (Somerset E.)

  Cobbett, J. M.

  Collins, T.

  Laird. J. (Birkenhead)

  Cox, W.

  Langton, W. H. G.

  Dickson, Colonel

  Lawson, W.

  Dillwyn, L. L.

  Leader, N. P.

  Disraeli, rt. hon. B.

  Lennox, Lord G. G. (Lym.)

  Douglas, Sir. C.

  Doulton, F.

  Lewis, H. (Marylebone)

  Duff, M. E. G. (Elgin)

  Lindsay, W. S. (Sund.)

  Dunne, Col. (Queen's Co.)

  Locke, J.

  Longfield, R.

  Egerton, E. C. (Macclesfield)

  Maguire, J. F.

  Miles, Sir W.

  Elphinstone, Sir J. D.

  Miller, W. (Leith)

  Enfield, Viscount

  Mills, J. R. (Wycombe)

  Ewart, W. (Dumfries, &c

  Montagu, Lord R.

  Morris, D.

  Forster, W. E. (Bradford)

  Mundy, W.

  Mure, D.

  French, Colonel

  Murray, W.

  Gard, R. S.

  North, F. (Hastings)

  Garnett, W. J.

  Northcote, Sir S. H.

  George, J.

  O'Conor Don, The

  Goldsmid, Sir. F. H.

  Packe, C. W. (Leic. S.)

  Gordon, C. W.

  Paget, C. (Nottingham)

  Gore, J. R. O. (Salop N.)

  Pakington, rt. hon. Sir J.

  Palk, Sir L.

  Gore, W. R. O. (Leitrim)

  Parker, Major W.

  Paull, H.

  Gray. Capt. (Bolton)

  Peel, rt. hon. Gen.(Huntingdon)

  Griffith, C. D.

  320

  Powell, F. S. (Cam. Bo.)

  Thynne, Lord E.(Frome)

  Ridley, Sir M. W.

  Tite, W.

  Robertson, H. (Shrews.)

  Torrens, R.

  Roebuck, J. A.

  Trefusis, hon. C. H. R.

  Rowley, hon. R. T.

  Trelawny, Sir J. S.

  Russell, H. (Beds)

  Turner, C. (Lancas. S.)

  Sidney, T.

  Upton, hon. Gen.

  Smith, J. B. (Stockport)

  Walcott, Admiral

  Smith, A. (Truro)

  Walsh, Sir J.

  Smollett, P. B.

  Walter, J.

  Stanley, Lord (King's Lynn)

  Weguelin, T. M.

  White, J. (Brighton)

  Stansfeld, J.

  Williams, W. (Lambeth)

  Steel, J.

  Wyld, J.

  Stuart, Col. (Cardiff)

  Wynn, C. W. W. (Mont.)

  Stracey, Sir H.

  Sykes, Col. W. H.

  TELLERS.

  Taylor, Col. (Dublin C.)

  Mr. Peacocke

  Taylor, P. A. (Leicest.)

  Captain Jervis

SUPPLY.
Committee deferred till Monday next.
POST OFFICE SAVINGS BANKS.

  CONSIDERED IN COMMITTEE.
  The House, according to Order, resolved itself into a Committee on Post Office and other Savings Banks.
  (In the Committee.)
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: The object of my proposal that the House should go into Committee is to obtain a preliminary Resolution for the purpose of enabling me to bring in a Bill which relates to Post Office Savings Banks. It is a Bill which touches, it is true, in one or two particulars upon the powers of other savings banks, but simply in relation to the transactions between both classes of savings banks. Nothing whatever is done by it with respect to the management of the old savings banks, or the management of the funds held on behalf of the old savings banks. For that reason I propose that it should be called the Post Office Savings Banks Bill. The Resolution which I shall move shall be in conformity with the terms in which the Committee was appointed, and will be somewhat of a general character, and will not refer to some portions of the Bill. The Bill is a short and simple one, and I will state to the Committee in two or three minutes what will be the principal provisions of the Bill. At present there is no legal method of enabling old savings banks to wind up. A certain portion of them have expressed, and—so far as dependent upon the trustees and managers — have acted upon their desire to wind up. Now, I do not think that the provisions for enabling the old savings banks to be wound

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  up are likely to be very extensively acted upon. We have had now some experience on this point; and though a considerable number of the old savings banks have done what in them lay to wind up their transactions and hand over their deposits to the Post Office savings banks, yet when we look at the number and degree of development which those savings banks have reached, the number which has done so is comparatively trifling. There are about 600 savings banks in the country, and of these between thirty and forty had desired to wind up their affairs. But the Committee will be able to judge what is the comparatively small scale of the transactions of the great bulk of those savings banks when I state that the average amount of deposits in those savings banks which have been desirous of winding up is only about £7,000; whereas the average of deposits in the remaining savings banks, nearly 600 in number, is nearly £70,000. The Committee, therefore, will see that what we have to provide for is not the likelihood of any general, sweeping, or rapid change from one class of savings banks to the other, but the desire which has been, perhaps naturally and reasonably, expressed by the managers of a certain portion of savings banks where their sphere of action has not been an extended one, to divest themselves of their labours and responsibility, and to hand over the whole of their cash and assets to the Post Office savings banks and the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, subject to all claims of depositors upon that cash and those assets. That is the principal legislative object of the Bill which I shall seek to introduce, if this Resolution is accepted by the House.
  There is in view also another legislative object—one which involves more details— but its general purpose is this:—The law has very justly imposed somewhat stringent restraints upon the withdrawal of deposits lodged in savings banks on behalf of minors, especially of minors under seven years of age; and in some cases where the Legislature has not by any direct enactment taken that course, the same result has been brought about by laws which have from time to time been framed by the managers of the different savings banks, which have received the assent and approval of the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, and have thereby acquired the force of law. These
  322
  restraints have placed the accounts of minors under seven years of age in such a position that a transfer of their accounts to the Post Office savings banks cannot upon any conditions be effected. Now, however desirable and wise it may be to impose stringent limitations upon the withdrawal of their deposits or upon dealing with their accounts while they are at that tender age, it is right that some means should be provided for allowing the transfer of their deposits by a transfer certificate to the Post Office savings banks. A great number of applications have been addressed to us by various parties — for instance, by trustees of existing savings banks and by the guardians of children—and representations have been made to us signifying the desire that those powers should be given, and the object is so obviously reasonable— though the mode of proceeding should be carefully considered—that I do not conceive there can be any difference of opinion on it. I have a number of letters containing such applications made to us. For example, in many cases the parents of children apply to have the accounts of their children transferred from the one savings bank to the other, but cannot effect it. I shall propose in the Bill that powers for this purpose shall be given, and that reciprocal powers shall also be given for transferring in like manner deposits from Post Office savings banks to the old savings banks whenever it may be desirable. The other important point contained in the Bill is one on which we propose the adoption of the following Resolution, namely: —
  "That it is expedient to amend the law relating to Post Office Savings Banks, and to grant powers for the conversion of certain perpetual Government annuities, standing in the names f the Commissioners for the reduction of the National Debt, on account of Post Office Saving? Banks, into certain other stock and annuities,"
  I will endeavour to explain briefly the object of this Resolution. It relates to a subject of great importance, though it deals within a very limited area. As far as my experience has gone, either in the office I have the honour to hold or elsewhere, there appears to me to be on the part of the Members of this House, and likewise on the part of the public, a very general desire to give further extension—indeed, a great further extension, if possible—to the principle which long has been introduced into our law, and the working of which, as far as it goes, is eminently salutary—I mean the principle and practice of convening the perpetual

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  annuities, of which the National Debt mainly consists, into terminable annuities either for lives or for terms of years. The extent to which we are at present able to operate on that principle is as follows:— There are certain annuities existing which terminate in 1867; there are large annuities payable at the Bank of England, and there are certain other annuities, principally such as were created by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of War during the course of the late war with Russia. To those annuities so created by him there have been added during the two or three last years the annuities created on account of the Fortifications, and likewise a small amount of public annuities now in the market on account of the Red Sea Telegraph, which is, however, a very small amount indeed. Besides these particular annuities—which are public annuities, expiring at certain fixed dates—there is in operation a system by which, partly and mainly through the National Debt Office, and partially and to a limited degree through a portion of the savings banks of the country, annuities may be purchased on good terms by individuals either for their own lives, or for the lives of certain other persons, or for terms of years. That is the extent to which that system is carried, quite apart from the other annuities of which I have spoken, terminating in a lump, so to speak, at certain dates. It may be said roughly to amount to the conversion of about £1,000,000 of stock per annum. That is not a very large amount, and it is constantly asked why we do not operate more largely for the reduction of the National Debt by the conversion of perpetual into terminable annuities. The answer is, that annuities are a commodity that can be sold favourably in the market under certain circumstances, and to a certain extent, but they are a commodity of which the general market entirely refuses to receive more than a very limited quantity, except on terms so disadvantageous to the public that the Government would not recommend the operation, nor would Parliament be disposed to authorize it. But it appears to us there is a mode perfectly safe and simple by which we can give expansion to this valuable principle of converting perpetual into terminable annuities by operating on the funds that come into our hands in respect to the Post Office savings banks. I will not ask the Committee for an opinion, nor give an opinion on the part of the Go-
  324
  vernment, respecting the application of the principle to the larger amount of public money which we hold on the part of the old savings banks. In dealing with the funds we must bear in mind—though it is a contingency unlikely to occur—that we might be compelled, in order to meet the claims of depositors, to go largely into the market as sellers of stock. It follows, therefore, that we must reserve in our own hands means ample enough to meet any such possible though not probable demand. Therefore I would not venture, small as comparatively are the funds held on account of Post Office savings banks—and it is almost certain from all indications that there will be an influx and not an efflux of money—to ask the House to take a general power for converting the whole of that property into annuities. What I propose to do is this—to convert the present annuities that are perpetual into new perpetual annuities of a lower denomination, and taking the difference between the value of the old denomination and the new one to convert that amount into terminable annuities. Suppose, for example, there is a sum of £100,000 3½ per cent stock; we propose to take powers to convert that £100,000 3½ per cent stock into £100,000 2½ per cent stock. The consequence will be that we shall always have a marketable commodity on hand; and 2½ per cent, in consequence of its very low denomination, is a stock that usually commands a very good price in the market. Then what becomes of the difference between the £2 10 s, and the £3 10 s. stock? That I propose to take powers to convert into terminable annuities. It seems that the sums held by the Post Office savings banks—though large considering the time the system has been in operation—are at present but very small. They amount to something between £1,500,000 and £2,000,000. Anything, therefore, that can be done at the present moment must be done on a small scale, but it is quite possible — at least I will not say it is unlikely — that as the deposits in those banks become larger, the scale on which the principle may be applied will become more extended. I hope the Committee will understand what the effect will be of the proposed operation. The principle of the Resolution I propose is that a limited power should be taken to convert perpetual annuities into terminable annuities. That may be done either by converting a portion entirely into

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  terminable annuities, by converting the whole, or by converting part into perpetual annuities of a lower denomination than they now hold, and at the same time converting the difference between the lower and the higher denomination into a terminable annuity. The effect of the latter course will be that, without encountering the inconvenience of having to sell those terminable annuities in the general market, which is not adapted to receive them, we shall be able to act more extensively, and by adding by very gentle degrees to the present annual charge, borne on account of the interest of the debt, to gradually reduce the debt itself at a future period. Those annuities would, in point of fact, be very convenient to hold on the part of the Post Office savings banks, and eminently desirable securities, though not desirable securities to carry into the general market. That is the only explanation that I can offer at present in proposing a Resolution of this general character. Probably it is the desire of the Committee to see the Bill in print, and I shall be able to lay it on the table on the day after this Committee shall have reported. The mode in which the provisions I have sketched will be carried into effect will be quite plain. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving a Resolution as follows: —
  "That it is expedient to amend the Law relating to Post Office Savings Banks, and to grant powers for the conversion of certain perpetual Government Annuities standing in the names of the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, on account of Post Office Savings Banks, into certain other Stocks and Annuities."
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, he did not quite understand the right hon. Gentleman on one point. Was it intended by the Bill to give the option of converting a portion into terminable annuities in either one or of both the ways mentioned; or would the Bill prescribe which of the two ways were to be adopted?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that what he meant to have done was to describe the scope of the Resolutions. He asked the Committee to assent to the principle of conversion in some form. The form he thought to be the safest was that of converting into terminable annuities only the difference between the lower and the higher denominations. That, therefore, was the form in which he should propose to place it in the Bill; but the other mode would be compatible with the principle of the Resolution.
  SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, he had more than once called attention to the extreme inconvenience of the House being called upon suddenly to express opinions on subjects which were certainly more or less complicated, but with which the right hon. Gentleman might be familiar. They had had only ten days' notice, and the notice was for a Committee on Post Office-savings banks. True, the words "other savings banks" were introduced, and that was all there was to lead them to suppose that a measure might be introduced which would apply to the old savings banks. The scheme of the right hon. Gentleman might be good or bad, but it was one on which the Committee could give no opinion at that moment. Certainly no one would have guessed that the first measure relating to Post Office savings banks would be a provision to wind up the old savings banks. He was aware that there might be some small banks which might desire, to avail themselves of such an opportunity; but hon. Gentlemen would rather have liked to know that such a scheme was in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman. He should like to be informed whether the right hon. Gentleman proposed to give to the old savings banks whatever powers of transfer he meant to confer upon the Post Office savings banks. [The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER: Minus the accounts.] Of the proposition of the right hon. Gentleman in a financial point of view he should not say a word, although he thought it looked somewhat like a favorite scheme of his of trying to get 3½ per cent for 2½ per cent stock. Whatever, he might add, was the value of the terminable annuities, there was one difficulty connected with them, which was the operation of the income tax.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, that if he had understood the proposition of the right hon. Gentleman aright, it was this—that £100 of 3 per cent stock would be converted into £100 2½ per cent stock and a certain amount of terminable annuities, which would cease at a fixed date, when only the 2½ per cent stock would be left. When the terminable annuity ceased, would not the capital of the Post Office savings banks be diminished to that extent? How was the capital fund to be kept intact?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he did not think the hon. Gentleman had correctly gathered what would be the effect of this measure. They had entirely cleared off, in the case

  327
  of the Post Office savings banks, those ambiguities which attached to the relations of the different parties concerned in the old savings banks. In the case of the Post Office savings banks there could be no doubt that both in law and in fact the State was simply a banker, stipulating to pay a certain fixed interest for the deposits of the public, and the public understood that the credit and the property of the country were their security for the due payment of that interest. That being the case, the public neither knew nor cared what was done with the money while it was in the hands of the Government; for if the system was an extravagant one, they did not suffer; and if, on the contrary, it was an economical and a wise one, they gained nothing. As to whether the Post Office savings bank system was a paying system, he should not enter into that question, as the materials for coming to a conclusion were not then before the House. But while not prepared to assert anything positively, he believed, and the very diligent and intelligent public officers who had been engaged in developing this system, fully believed, that those banks would not cost the country one shilling. Even supposing the case as put by the hon. Member, that there was a conversion into a perpetual stock of a lower denomination, which no doubt would be of less value in the market, the difference came to be this —that instead of receiving a fixed sum from year to year in perpetuity of a certain amount, they would receive two things: one, a fixed sum in perpetuity of a lower amount, and therefore representing a smaller capital; and the other, a circulating system which, from year to year, brought back portions of the capital, along with the annual interest. The portions of the capital so brought back, with other deposit monies, would be matter for annual re-investment; and that was the mode in which the system would work. It was highly important that the Post Office savings banks should be a self-supporting system; and he was very hopeful that it would be able to stand the test of the searching examination which the House would make in due time.
  In reply to MR. WEGUELIN,
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the process would be simply this—taking the smallest example of a particular annuity of £3 per cent, they would cancel that annuity and
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  create in lieu of it a perpetual annuity of 50 s. per cent, converting the other 10 s. per centum into an annuity terminable at a fixed period, say, for example, 1885. With respect to the rate of interest, that was a question which the Government were constantly called upon to consider with regard to fortification and other annuities. Their regular practice was to consult the financial officers attached to the Government, and also the Governor and Deputy Governor of the Bank of England; and there was never any difficulty as to the rate of interest, which was always made rather favourable to the purchaser than otherwise, and would therefore be favourable to the buyer of the annuity in the present case.
  MR. HENLEYsaid, that it was not his intention to express any opinion upon the scheme, beyond that he understood the right hon. Gentleman to propose that there should be a certain number of perpetual annuities in the hands of the Post Office savings banks, but the House should remember that the sum of which he spoke would be still due to the country in hard money, though it would bear less interest. For his own part, he must say the scheme certainly seemed to him like paying the interest in two different ways, which was an odd method of reducing a debt.
  Motion agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That it is expedient to amend the Law relating to Post Office Savings Banks, and to grant powers for the conversion of certain perpetual Government Annuities standing in the names of the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, on account of Post Office Savings Banks, into certain other Stocks and Annuities.
  Resolution to be reported on Monday next.

CUSTOMS ACTS (TOBACCO DUTIES).

  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to go into Committee on Customs Acts (Tobacco Duties) read.
  COLONEL DICKSONsaid, he wished to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether in reducing the duty on tobacco he would allow a drawback to merchants who had paid duty on stock in hand? They had heard already of the inconvenience of sudden changes. He did not wish to make any remarks about the reduction itself; but those interested, who had just paid a large amount of duty, had some grounds to complain of the sudden-

  329
  ness of the reduction. On former occasions, when such changes had been made, large amounts had been remitted, both in respect of wine duties and hop duties; and whilst the amount of tobacco duties paid within the last few days could not be of much importance to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the sums were serious items to the merchants, on whose behalf he asked the question.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid that in accordance with a rule which had applied to the reductions of Customs duties for the last nineteen years, and from which there had during that time been no deviation, it was not the intention of the Government to propose the allowance of any drawback in respect of the duty paid upon the importation of manufactured tobacco. If they were to do so, they would depart from an established principle, and involve themselves in the greatest inconvenience.
  House in Committee according to Order.
  (In the Committee.)
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the Resolutions which he was about to move had been laid upon the table, and had, in conformity with recent practice, been printed. With regard to the first of those Resolutions he wished to say that he placed it upon the paper rather for the information of the House and the public than because there way any necessity for so doing. It had been found convenient in the case of reduction of duty, in order to avoid too great suddenness of procedure, to print at the very first stage of the business the rate to which it was proposed to reduce the duty; but, inasmuch as the duties mentioned in the first Resolution were all of them lower than the existing ones, it would have been perfectly competent for him or any other Member of the House to have at once introduced a Bill to substitute them for those now in force. The Resolution was not one which would take immediate effect; on the contrary, it was a matter with regard to which it was desirable that full time should be given to the House and the trade for the consideration of the subject. The question of the duties upon manufactured tobacco was a very singular one. At present they gave what was called a monopoly to the home manufacturer; that was to say, that with the exception of certain articles which were purely articles of luxury, and
  330
  could afford to pay the high duty, the duty was such as to amount to a total exclusion of foreign competition. Therefore, the duties upon manufactured tobacco as they stood, might be said to constitute the only relic of the system which was once the ruling principle of our tariff. It might, perhaps, seem strange that these duties should, for such a length of time, have escaped revision. They had not been maintained on account of any conviction on the part of this, or, as far as he knew, of any Government, that considerations of justice to the tobacco manufacturers required their maintenance. On the contrary, the obvious dictates of justice would appear, at least presumably, to be that the trade in manufactured tobacco and in manufacturing tobacco, should be placed upon the same footing as all other manufactures in this country—that was to say, that they should upon as fair a footing as they could devise, be subjected to competition with the producers of other nations. The reason why no proposal had up to that time been made to reduce the duty upon manufactured tobacco had been the grave nature of the difficulties which had to be encountered in securing the interests of the revenue. It was only after a very mature and careful consideration of the regulations proper to be adopted that the Government had at length been able to arrive at what they thought a solution of the difficulty, and to propose to the House the removal of what stood at present as a very gross and in principle a very indefensible anomaly in the tariff. One portion of the regulations involved a system of manufacturing certain descriptions of tobacco in bond—"Cavendish or Negro-head,"—and that was the enactment the nature of which had required him, instead of coming before the House with a Bill which would, perhaps, have been more for the general convenience, to proceed by way of preliminary Resolution. The Resolutions could not be understood except in connection with the provisions of the Bill, and particularly the bonding provisions. As far as he was aware, it appeared to be the general feeling of the trade that it was not possible longer to maintain the duties which were now in force. He did not at that time ask the Committee to do more than to assent to the general principle that those prohibitory duties, as he might call them, should be reduced. When they came to consider the particular kind of reduction, they were involved in mysteries of a trade very

  331
  difficult to understand; but he might say in general terms that they had thought it necessary to adopt a peculiar system with regard to a kind of tobacco that was called Cavendish or Negro-head. That was a description of tobacco which was very popular in some parts of the country, and which formed a considerable portion of that which was at present smuggled. The Government had, therefore, had to ask themselves whether in endeavouring to get rid of the prohibitory rate, and substituting a duty which would admit of the introduction of that article from abroad, they should allow our manufacturers the free use of duty-paid materials without supervision for the purpose of making cavendish or negro-head. Unfortunately, though, as he had said, the present duties had the effect of giving a monopoly to the home producer, in this one not unimportant point they gave a monopoly to the foreign producer, because the preparation of sweetened cavendish or negro-head was forbidden to the manufacturer at home. Its importation from abroad was likewise forbidden, but there the prohibition did not take practical effect, and a considerable quantity of this tobacco found its way into consumption. They had, therefore, thought it essential, in endeavouring to get rid of smuggling, and to establish a fair rate of duty, to attempt to afford to the British manufacturer some means of entering into this competition which he did not now enjoy. There were two modes which might have been adopted—one the free use of duty-paid articles, and the other the power to work on bond. The first of these was upon general grounds the more desirable; but he was bound to say, that after consulting fully with the authorities of the Revenue Department, he could not satisfy his mind, nor could those who advised him satisfy their minds, that they could establish enactments permitting the use of duty-paid leaf tobacco for the purpose of manufacturing cavendish or negro-head without very serious danger to an important branch of the revenue, On that account he proposed, as far as that description of manufacture was concerned, to establish a system of manufacture in bond. With a regard to other descriptions of tobacco, roll tobacco of all descriptions, cut or shag tobacco, cigars, and snuff, the manufacture would continue to go on as at present. The manufacturer would continue to use duty-paid materials, and the only
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  difference would be that the foreign article would be introduced at a rate of duty which, as the Government thought, would amount to a fair and full equivalent for both the direct and the indirect charge to which the British manufacturer was subject. Such was a very general outline of the principles of the measure which he proposed to introduce, the reasons for which did not require to be dilated upon. They were these three. In the first place, the Government aimed at applying to the manufacture of tobacco the principle of competition—competition from abroad as well as at home—which had been applied with such salutary effect to all other manufactures. In the second place, they hoped to effect a diminution of smuggling; and in the third place—though that was not the main object of the proposal, and the Government were not prepared to submit any particular estimate—they believed the results would without doubt be of a beneficial character to the revenue. He hoped he had said enough to recommend that general outline of the measure to the adoption of the Committee, and all that he then asked was a provisional assent for the purpose of enabling him to introduce the Bill. He begged it might be well understood that no practical effect upon the duties would result from passing the Resolution that night; the consideration of the Bill in Committee was the period when they would really have to settle the amount of the duties. Although he did not apprehend that any would be required, he held himself at liberty to introduce such modifications as might hereafter prove to be necessary into the proposal he had now submitted on the part of the Government. It had not been possible to have the advantage of free and direct communication with the trade before introducing the Resolution; but before the final assent of the House was asked to the scheme, the opinions of the trade would be fully and directly elicited. The right hon. Gentleman then moved the following Resolutions:—
  That, in lieu of the Duties of Customs now charged upon the several kinds of Manufactured Tobacco under mentioned, the following Duties shall be charged and paid thereon upon importation into Great Britain and Ireland:

  s.

  d.

  Segars

  the lb.

  5

  0

  Snuff

  the lb.

  3

  9

  Other Manufactured Tobacco

  the lb.

  4

  0

  That Unmanufactured Tobacco warehoused in any warehouse approved for security of Duties of

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  Customs may, in such warehouse, be manufactured or converted into the articles denominated Cavendish or Negro-head Tobacco; and upon every pound thereof produced by such manufacture or conversion there shall be charged and paid on the delivery thereof for home consumption the Customs Duty of… 3s 8d.
  SIR GEORGE BOWYERsaid, that so far as he understood, the tobacco trade did not claim to be exempt from the principle of unrestricted competition applying to all other manufactures; but they felt that the change contemplated by the right hon. Gentleman placed them, in some respects, in an unfair position. They had to pay duty upon the tobacco in a damp state which was imported for the manufacture of cigars, and therefore weighed more than when it was dry, and they had also to pay duty upon stalks which were not used, and were mere refuse. They were thus placed at considerable disadvantage towards the foreign manufacturers, who were at liberty to use only the most favourable portions of the leaf. Under these circumstances, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would allow cigars, as well as cavendish and negro-head, to be made in bond. There was no argument in favour of the regulation in the one case which did not apply with equal force in the other, and therefore he trusted the right hon. Gentleman would apply the same rule to both.
  MR. CRAWFORDsaid, he had received numerous representations from his constituents on the subject of those Resolutions. But as the right hon. Gentleman was not disposed to press them forward unduly or without listening patiently to the representations of the trade, he thought they might rest satisfied that no improper interference with their interests was intended. As no drawback was to be allowed, he hoped sufficient time would be afforded to the traders for working off the stocks they now had in hand before the Resolutions were put in force.
  MR. AYRTONsaid, he had been beset with representations from his constituents, among whom were some thousands of persons engaged in the manufacture of cigars and tobacco, to the effect that the proposition of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not based on an accurate appreciation of the circumstances of the manufacture, and was likely to bring great distress and ruin on a large body of persons. No doubt, these cries of apprehended ruin were very general when-
  334
  ever changes were proposed, but experience showed that these cries were not always raised without substantial cause. It was to be regretted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, through the occurrence of circumstances of a painful nature, had not the opportunity of penetrating the mysteries of the tobacco trade before he brought forward his Resolutions. It was idle to talk of the tobacco manufacture coining within the principles of free trade, seeing it was an established law in this country that nobody was to grow tobacco. The tobacco manufacture and the duties imposed upon it were, according to the view which might be taken of smoking, either a vehicle for getting money out of the pockets of foolish men, or else a fine on the enjoyment of a luxury. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had moved these Resolutions with certain qualifications, and he now asked the House to suspend its judgment with regard to them. The leading manufacturers of tobacco were satisfied that the right hon. Gentleman had been misinformed; they knew the extent of the error under which he was labouring, and they were prepared to clear it up, and, if necessary, to go before a Select Committee. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer made any change in the existing laws with regard to tobacco, he would have to make many others; and he might find it impossible to maintain the superstructure of Customs regulations in relation to that article.
  MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he was always glad to welcome a reduction of taxation, but there were many other articles upon which a reduction of duty would have been attended with greater benefits. For instance, he wished the right, hon. Gentleman, instead of lessening the duty on cigars, had reduced that upon unmanufactured tobacco. It could scarcely be credited that the duty on cigars consumed by the wealthier classes of society was 35 per cent, while that on unmanufactured tobacco, consumed by the great mass of the population, was nearly 500 per cent.
  MR. LOCKEsaid, he regretted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had passed by entirely the question of reducing the duty on the tobacco consumed by the working classes, to whom it had now become an absolute necessity, as most of them smoked and not a few chewed. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would consider the expediency of reducing the duty on unmanufactured tobacco. The

  335
  effect of the heavy duty was that it was brought in in the very lightest form. It was then watered and sugared and adulterated in all sorts of ways, and all of it could be bought for less than the duty. He was convinced that by reducing the duty on the unmanufactured article the revenue would be largely benefited, and adulteration would be checked.
  MR. ROEBUCKobserved, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer appeared to be in a dilemma, for, while one side urged him to consider the case of the cigar-smokers, another urged upon him the case of the consumers of unmanufactured tobacco. For his part, he had no sympathy with either one side or the other; and he heartily wished there was no tobacco grown in the world.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, he considered, that as the question had been raised, there should be no delay in its settlement, lest the revenue should suffer; for if there was a prospect of the duty on cigars being diminished, nobody would be in a hurry to take them out of bond. He wished, therefore, to ask his right hon. Friend for explanation as to what the usual course was when the Committee had passed n Resolution that certain duties should be levied and no time was fixed. He (Sir Stafford Northcote) did not see why the Chancellor of the Exchequer should not have consulted the trade before he brought forward these Resolutions; the only reason, perhaps, why his right hon. Friend had not done so was that he wished to submit the matter first to the House of Commons, though it was difficult to see the use of attempting to keep the matter secret. He trusted the Chancellor of the Exchequer would take care to provide such arrangements that the revenue should not be diminished. There was another point on which he should like some explanation—he meant the reasons why the Chancellor of the Exchequer objected to the same privilege being granted to the cigar-maker as to the manufacturer of cavendish or negro-head tobacco, of manufacturing in bond. He wanted to know why, if the privilege were given to the one class of manufacturers, it should be withheld from the other? It would be a great advantage to the revenue as well as to the manufacturers, if the extension of the privilege were granted. If there were any special objections, the Committee ought to be told what they were. He should like to know whether the Go-
  336
  vernment had authoritatively decided upon the subject.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the points raised during the conversation on the subject he had introduced called for but a few observations from him. He had listened with great regret to the speech of the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton). The hon. Gentleman had shown the cloven foot at once, and it was obvious that his idea was that the present duties should be retained in force. With reference to his statement that there already existed free competition between the tobacco manufacturers of this country, he would only say that when the monopoly in corn was attacked, they were told that there was free competition between agriculturists. The day for fighting that battle had passed away. The hon. and learned Member for Southwark (Mr. Locke) said that a reduction of the duty on unmanufactured tobacco would be followed by an increase of revenue. That, however, was one of the largest questions of revenue which could be raised, and could hardly be dealt with in a measure such as this, which was a mere measure of trade. Reduction of duty and increase of revenue did not invariably go together; and, from the inquiries he had made on the subject, he was convinced that any material reduction of the duty on unmanufactured tobacco would lead to a very large reduction of revenue. Practically, the question which the Committee would have to consider, would be whether they would select that article in preference to other articles. Those selected would, he believed, yield additional revenue, and, to a great extent, prevent smuggling. With reference to the possible loss of duty from the circumstance that no date was named from which the reduction would take effect, he believed that vast as were the payments on unmanufactured tobacco, the payments on manufactured tobacco were extremely small, and a week or a fortnight was of very little consequence. The effect of naming no specific time in the Resolution was that a Bill similar in form would be introduced, and the reduction would take place only when the Royal assent was given to the Bill. It was desirable that they should not proceed with precipitancy; but at the same time they ought to deal with the proposition without undue delay. With regard to the manufacturers, he merely desired to give them such time as

  337
  might be necessary to enable them to bring their views fully before the Government and the House. He should himself think that a very short time would suffice for that purpose; and if the House went into Committee upon the Bill in a fortnight, they might within that period very well dispose of all the questions that might be raised. Then there was the practical question put by his hon. Friend as to the manufacture of cigars in bond. It must be borne in mind that the manufacture in bond was at best a very defective, clumsy, and costly expedient. It was, however, better sometimes to permit such manufacture than to prohibit the trade altogether; but the privilege given to manufacturers was attended by various drawbacks. The enjoyment of it was absolutely limited to a very few spots where the customs had considerable establishments which enabled them to conduct the necessary supervision. The opinion of the Government was that there was no sufficient reason for granting power to manufacture cigars in bond; but when he was asked whether that was an irrevocable opinion and was an essential part of the proposition, most certainly he thought that all such matters were perfectly open for discussion. The considerations by which they were guided were considerations in which all took a common interest—namely, a desire to reconcile as well as they could the several interests of the consumer, the manufacturer, and the revenue. Therefore, he held himself entirely open to examine further the extension of the bonding privilege to other places than he had named; but he was bound to say, that as far as his investigations had hitherto gone, he was not aware of any sufficient reasons why it should be so extended.
  1. Resolved,
  That, in lieu of the Duties of Customs now charged upon the several kinds of Manufactured Tobacco under mentioned, the following Duties shall be charged and paid thereon upon importation into Great Britain and Ireland:

  s.

  d

  Segars

  the lb.

  5

  0

  Snuff

  the lb.

  3

  9

  Other Manufactured Tobacco

  the lb.

  4

  0

  2. Resolved,
  That Unmanufactured Tobacco warehoused in any warehouse approved for security of Duties of Customs may, in such warehouse, be manufactured or converted into the articles denominated Cavendish or Negro-head Tobacco; and upon every pound thereof produced by such manufac-
  338
  ture or conversion there shall be charged and paid on the delivery thereof for home consumption the Customs Duty of… 3s. 8d.
  Resolutions to be reported on Monday next.

DRAINAGE (IRELAND) [STAMPS].
Drainage (Ireland) [Stamps], — considered in Committee:—
(In the Committee.)
Resolved,
That every Debenture granted under the provisions of any Act of the present Session relating to the Drainage of Land in Ireland, and every Assignment and Transfer thereof, shall be chargeable with the Stamp Duty as a Bond for the like amount, and the Assignment and Transfer thereof, are by the Laws in force subject or liable to respectively.
Resolution to be reported on Monday next.

INNKEEPERS' LIABILITY.

  LEAVE. FIRST READING.
  MR. P. W. MARTINsaid, he rose to move for leave to introduce a Bill to amend the Law respecting the Liability of Innkeepers, and to prevent certain frauds upon them. As he did not anticipate any opposition to the Motion, he would content himself by saying that the object of the measure was to deal with a serious and growing fraud upon that class of persons.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. WYKEHAM MARTIN, Mr. GRANT BUFF, and Mr. HUNT.
  Bill presented, and read 1°. [Bill 18.]

MUNICIPAL ELECTIONS.

  LEAVE. FIRST READING.
  MR. AUGUSTUS SMITHsaid, he wished to move for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the mode of taking Votes at Municipal Elections. The object of the measure was to remedy an increasing evil which was experienced at these elections throughout the country.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. AUGUSTUS SMITH, Mr. Cox, and Mr. DILLWYN.
  Bill presented, and read 1°. [Bill 19.]
  House adjourned at a quarter after Seven o'clock till Monday next.