Commons Sitting of 1 May 1862

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILL.—2° Births and Deaths Registration (Ireland).

THE AMERICAN MAILS.—QUESTION.
MR. LEADERsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether his attention has been drawn to the delay that occurs between the arrival of the American Mails in Queenstown Harbour and their being placed on the Cork and Dublin Railway for transmission to England; and whether he is aware that by using the Queenstown Railway a considerable saving of time could be effected?
MR. PEELwas understood to say, that he had been informed by the Post Office authorities, that if they used the railway instead of the steamers between Cork and Dublin, it would only effect a saving of about thirty-five minutes, but that would not obviate the delay which sometimes arose between Kingstown and Holyhead, which was the more important matter. The Post Office authorities, in communication with the directors of the railway, had found that there would be considerable difficulty in running express trains at any hour of the night. Under these circumstances it was intended to continue the present arrangements.

MARKETS AND FAIRS (IRELAND) BILL.

  CONSIDERATION.
  Order for Consideration as amended read.
  SIR HUGH CAIRNSsaid, he would venture to suggest to the Government, in reference to the notice of Motion given by the hon. and learned Member for Cork (Mr. V. Scully) that this Bill be recommitted, that that course would be the more convenient one, as there were a great many Amendments on the paper to be considered, It should be remembered, that upon the third reading it would not be competent to make any Amendments in the Bill, however much the clauses which might be agreed to at the present stage of the Bill should clash with the clauses already passed.
  SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, if it were

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  merely intended to recommit the Bill with the view to the consideration of the Amendments on the paper, and any new clauses that might be proposed, the Government would not object to that course; but if it were intended to recommit the whole of the clauses of the Bill for the purpose of discussing them over again, the Government could not agree to such a course.
  Bill re-committed in reference to the several Clauses proposed to be amended, and to the new Clauses proposed to be added.
  Clause 12 (Compulsory Weighing at Public Weigh-house of Corn and other commodities in Schedule A).
  House in Committee.
  MR. M'MAHONsaid, he wished to propose some Amendments in clause 12, with the view of exempting from the necessity of weighing at the public weighing houses goods sold in the shop, place of business, or dwelling-place of the seller.
  SIR ROBERT PEELintimated that the Government could not assent to the Amendments which the hon. Member for Cork proposed to introduce. They struck at the root of compulsory weighing, which the House had already adopted, and to which he hoped it would adhere.
  MR. MASSEYremarked, that the proposal was really one to substitute a now clause for the clause in the Bill, and therefore it could not be submitted in the shape of an Amendment. The proper way was to bring up a clause embodying the Amendment.
  Motion negatived.
  MR. LONGFIELDsaid, that in the absence of his right hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Whiteside), he wished to move the insertion of certain words in Clause 24, for the purpose of making it incumbent on the managers of markets to supply returns of quantities sold, and average prices.
  SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, that it was impossible for the Government to agree to the Amendment, and he thought it would be unwise to force them to obtain these returns. They would do so if they could, without specifically binding themselves by adopting the Amendment.
  MR. M'MAHON suggested, that the persons making those returns would demand payment for the labour, and that it would be unfair to tax buyers and sellers for such a purpose.MR. M'MAHON suggested, that the persons making those returns would demand payment for the labour, and that it would be unfair to tax buyers and sellers for such a purpose.
  Amendment withdrawn.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clause 76 (Right of all interested to be heard before Council, or on Local Inquiry).
  MR. L0NGFIELDmoved an Amendment empowering the Lord Lieutenant and Council to allow such persons as they might consider interested in the question to appear upon an application with reference to the holding of a market or fair.
  SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, he thought the Amendment would be very useful.
  MR. M'MAHONsuggested, that it ought to have been framed more liberally. Why should not any person who was interested have the right to appear without consent first obtained from the Lord Lieutenant and Council?
  MR. LONGFIELDmaintained that the interests of the public would be sufficiently protected by the Amendment as it stood.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Clause (Power to Merchants to erect a Weighing Machine in their own Storehouse, with the consent of the Proprietor or Lessee of a Market) brought up and read 1°.
  Clause 10 (Mode of Weighing; Deductions prohibited).
  MR. H. A. HERBERTsaid, he thought the clause would lead to abuses. He had received remonstrances against the clause from the Chamber of Commerce of Dublin.
  SIR ROBERT PEELdid not think there was any foundation for the objections to the clause on the part of some merchants. There was a special clause in the Bill to meet cases of sale by sample.
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, the only object of the clause was to remedy what was felt to be an inconvenience. The machines would be under the control of the weighing master, and would be a matter of general convenience.
  LORD FERMOYsaid, that nothing could justify the introduction of such a clause but the conviction that great fraud in weighing was practised in the country. He was of opinion that it would defeat the object contemplated by the Bill.
  MR. VANCEobjected to the measure because it imposed compulsory weighing.
  MR. GEORGEcomplained that Irish Members had been taken by surprise, as they were given to understand that the Bill would not come on that evening.
  SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, that before Easter he distinctly stated that the measure would be brought forward that night, and he could not understand why it should not then be taken into consideration.
  Clause read 2° and added to the Bill.
  Clause (Proviso for Sales of Samples) brought up, and read 1°.
  Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."
  MR. MONSELLsuggested, that the Bill should be recommitted pro formâ, and that the right hon. Baronet's Amendments should be printed, or otherwise the House would have no clear idea what it was they were passing. In Limerick, however, a very similar measure had been for years in operation, and every class of the community were strongly in favour of it.
  SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, the new clauses (which had been drawn up with great care) were proposed solely with a view to carry out the wishes of the House.
  SIR HUGH CAIRNSsaid, he believed that there was a unanimous feeling in Ireland that the Bill should not apply to merchants dealing in foreign grain, who were not in the habit of using the market at all, but who conducted their business in the Corn Exchange. He thought, however, that it ought to apply to the class of traders who bought corn in small quantities throughout the country and then brought it to the neighbourhood of a large town, where they sold it by sample in the market. It was not right that they should be allowed to evade the tolls, and the clause should therefore apply to them.
  COLONEL DICKSONsaid, the only thing he had understood in the discussion was the proposal of his right hon. Colleague, that the Bill should be re-committed.
  LORD FERMOYsaid, that he thought the new clauses which had been added to the Bill would press very hard upon small dealers. In fact, those clauses had the effect of completely remodelling the character of the Bill. In order that the country should be afforded ample time for considering the Bill in its present shape, he should move that the Chairman do now re port progress.
  Motion made, and Question put, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 21; Noes 71: Majority 50.
  SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, he hoped hon. Members would clearly understand that he really had not the slighest desire to press the Bill forward in any unreasonable manner, and without allowing the fullest opportunity for its discussion. What he proposed was, that the Bill should be allowed to pass the Committee in its amended shape; and that when reprinted ample
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  time should be given for its consideration, and then on the bringing up of the report hon. Members could discuss all the Amendments.
  MR. BRADYasked, whether it was the intention of the right hon. Baronet to recommit the Bill.
  SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, it was not.
  COLONEL DICKSONobserved, that no doubt the Irish Members had expected that a different topic would have been under discussion that evening, the announcement to the contrary not having been made until Wednesday evening.
  MR. CARDWELLexplained, that the course adopted by the Government really afforded unusual opportunities for consideration and discussion.
  LORD CLAUD HAMILTONsaid, he also could state that owing to the circumstances; of the day, several hon. Members were absent who wished to take part in the discussion.
  MR. VANCEsaid, that acting upon what he believed to be good authority, he had told the committee of commerce in Dublin that there was no chance of the Bill going through till next week. The measure was looked upon with great anxiety in Ireland, lest it should prove fatal to the corn trade of Dublin, a bonus of 3s. per quarter being virtually given to the merchants of Liverpool over those of Dublin. The latter were sending a deputation to the Chief Secretary for Ireland, and he therefore would urge that the clause should not be pressed until the deputation had been heard.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, it was quite clear that it would be for the convenience of the House to have the Bill with his right hon. Friend's Amendments considered. If, therefore, they went through Committee pro formâ, inserted the Amendments and new clauses, and had the Bill printed, the whole would be in the hands of Members, and, on the report, the Bill might be re-committed, and the Amendments and additions discussed.
  MR. MONSELLsaid, he would admit that the proposition was a fair one.
  MR. VANCEsaid, he thought the proposal of the noble Lord a most reasonable one, and that it ought to be at once accepted.
  House resumed.
  Bill reported; as amended, to be considered on Thursday next, and to be printed [Bill 96].

BIRTHS AND DEATHS REGISTRATION (IRELAND) BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
  MR. HENNESSYsaid, he should propose a Resolution to prevent the employment of the police in collecting information under this Bill. The course now suggested in the Bill was quite different from that pursued in England or in any other country, and the only result of employing the police would be to render that force highly unpopular. Neither were ordinary constables qualified for the duty. In one of the forms appended to the Act a cause of death was described as "pneumonia," and the form was signed "John Cox, constable." But what did "John Cox, constable," know about pneumonia? Probably he would be unable to spell the word. In the Bill a provision had been copied from the English Act, and it proposed that any sub-constable or other policeman who should mislay a leaf of the registration-book, which he would be bound to keep, should be liable to a penalty of £50. That was a ridiculous provision. There were other persons who could be employed upon those duties with more advantage than the police, as, for instance, the dispensary officers. There were also the clerks of the Poor Law Unions. Nothing would be more unpopular than the employment of the police, and it would put the police themselves in an unpleasant position, and make them still more unpopular. He hoped the Irish Members would support the Resolution which he would move,
  "That this House is of opinion that it is not expedient to employ the Police as the Registrars of Births and Deaths in Ireland."
  Amendment proposed,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "this House is of opinion that it is not expedient to employ the Police as the Registrars of Births and Deaths in Ireland,"
  —instead thereof.
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  MR. DAWSONsaid, he regretted that the registration of marriages was not proposed to be dealt with by the Bill. He acknowledged the difficulty of dealing with
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  that part of the question, owing to the prevalence of religious differences in Ireland, but he regarded the system at present in operation as so unsatisfactory that he should view with gratification any measure, from whatever source it came, which should deal with the question of registration in all its branches. To the general principle of the Bill before the House he should give his support; but, considering the many burdens already borne by the county cess payers, he regretted that the cost of the proposed machinery was not to be discharged by the Consolidated Fund. He should have preferred to the present Bill the arrangements proposed last year by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, believing as he did that the medical officers of dispensary districts would be more trustworthy agents in the collection of statistics with regard to births and deaths than the constabulary force. Those officers were necessarily present at almost every birth in their neighbourhood; and by fulfilling the accessory duty of registrars, they might have increased their present scanty incomes. But as the Bill would diminish by one-third the expenses of the former system of registration, the medical officers probably would not think it worth their while to accept the office of registrars. Under all the circumstances, therefore, he did not hesitate to accept the measure as the most efficient and cheapest that could be devised. It would help the constabulary to add to their small remuneration.
  MR. BRADYsaid, he strongly objected to the employment of the police in the capacity of registrars under the Bill. A system of registration was much wanted in Ireland; but in selecting the persons to work that system, their ability to perform the work, and not the lowness of the salaries they would require, ought to be the main consideration. No system of registration could ever be successful unless it were carried out by the agency of medical gentlemen. That remark applied especially to the case of Ireland. The people of that country would revolt against permitting a common policeman to enter their houses for the purpose of registering the birth of a new-born child. A. few nights ago objection was taken to the military character of the police of Ireland. Much as the Irish people objected to the police discharging military duties, they would object still more to their discharging the social and domestic duties which by this Bill would devolve upon them. He considered that

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  the best men to perform the task would be the medical men; and if the House was not in a position to remunerate those gentlemen properly for the work, let it wait till it was.
  SIR FREDERICK HEYGATEsaid, he also considered that the police were not the right body for the employment. He did not wish to say a word against the force, but he did not wish the peasantry of Ireland to find the police set to do everything. If the constables had not enough to do, let their number be reduced.
  SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, the Amendment struck at one of the main features of the Bill; and if it were approved, it would necessitate the proposal of some other plan. Having given attention to the suggestions offered, he had come to the decided opinion that no body of men in Ireland were so capable efficiently and satisfactorily to discharge these duties as the constabulary. The medical officers would not undertake it for the money. Postmasters would be unequal to the task. Ecclesiastics of different denominations would not accept the responsibility. Persons being nominated by the Lord Lieutenant would throw too much patronage into the hands of the Irish Executive, and persons being elected by Boards of Guardians would lead to all kinds of jobbery. Upon the whole the constabulary were the best fitted for the purpose. They were very popular in Ireland, and had been engaged in preparing the census, in obtaining agricultural statistics, and in other duties of a kindred nature. The question, however, as to the persons who should be employed to carry out the measure was premature; it ought to be reserved until the Bill reached Committee, and therefore he hoped the hon. Gentleman would not persevere in his Amendment.
  MR. MAGUIREsaid, he should gladly support a Bill for a system of registration, but he could not adopt the worst possible machinery that the ingenuity of man could devise. In evidence before a Committee of that House, Mr. Senior had stated that the employment of the police for purposes of this kind was monstrous and unconstitutional. It was true, on the other hand, that Colonel Brownrigg had said that the constabulary would best carry out the scheme; but he added that it would be an auxiliary in the detection of crime. Would that be likely to render it popular? A Bill like the present would fill the public mind with suspicion, and raise up every
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  man of the humbler classes in Ireland to defeat it if possible. Again, why should the multitudinous duties of the police be still further augmented? He believed the medical officers, the clergymen, or clerks of unions would better discharge the duty than the policeman. It had been boasted the other night that the police were great proficients at the rifle; and he would ask the House what they thought of a policeman, with a rifle in one hand and a pencil in the other, going into a man's house to ask him when his child was born or his wife died? He wished to warn hon. Members against adopting the present machinery of the Bill.
  COLONEL DUNNEsuggested, that the system should be applied in Ireland which had been adopted in this country—of the appointment of special persons for this purpose. Without such amendment the plan would never be popular in Ireland.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, that the course adopted by those who moved the present Resolution was not very consistent with the opinions they had expressed with regard to the Bill. They professed themselves exceedingly anxious to have a system of registration in Ireland, but when the Government called upon them to affirm that principle, by agreeing to the second reading, they interposed a Motion which did not belong to that stage of the discussion, and which was perfectly fit to be proposed in Committee. He trusted, therefore, they would allow the Bill to be read, and when they came to the clause in Committee relating to the machinery they could discuss that question.
  MR. MONSELLobjected to having the police being appointed to carry out the objects of the Bill, acting as they did under a central authority; but he did not see why they might not be appointed by the Boards of Guardians.
  MR. HENNESSYsaid, he would withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read 2°, and committed for Thursday next.

SUMMARY JURISDICTION (IRELAND) BILL.—COMMITTEE.
Order for Committee read.
House in Committee.
Clauses 1 to 5 agreed to.
Clause 6 (Possession of Carcass of Sheep, &c., without accounting for same).
MR. HENNESSYobjected to the clause, as, if passed, it would lead to great hardships. It gave power to a magistrate to issue his warrant to search a house; and if stolen goods were found there, the person in possession of the house was to be held responsible.
MR. BRADYsaid, he should oppose the clause as most unjust and tyrannical.
MR. GEORGEobserved, that the clause might be emphatically described as the poor man's clause. It was his conviction that it would be extremely useful in Ireland.
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 7, 8, and 9 were also agreed to.
CAPTAIN STACPOOLEsaid, he wished to propose a clause, imposing a fine of 10 s. upon any person who should suffer a dog to be at large within fifty yards of a high road without its being muzzled, and empowering a Justice of the Peace to order the dog to be destroyed.
Clause brought up, and read 1°.
SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, he must oppose the clause, as it was inconsistent with the provisions of the measure. If the hon. and gallant Member attached any importance to the subject, the better way would be for him to bring in a Dog Bill.
MR. DAWSONsaid, he should support the clause. Stray dogs throughout the country did great mischief in worrying cattle and destroying sheep.
SIR ROBERT PEELsuggested, that the best plan would be to extend the Dog Tax to Ireland.
Question put, "That the Clause be read a second time."
The Committee divided:—Ayes 26; Noes 33: Majority 7.
House resumed.
Bill reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.
House adjourned at Twelve o'clock.