Commons Sitting of 18 February 1862

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBER SWORN.—For Leicester Borough, Peter Alfred Taylor, esquire. Public Bill.—1o Trade Marks.
GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY (No. 2) BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  MR. J. BROWNsaid, lie rose to move that the Bill be read a second time that I day six months. He would beg to re-mind the House that on no less than four previous occasions had the Great Northern Railway Company been defeated in their attempts to obtain Parliamentary sanction for making the line contemplated by the Bill. The question, therefore, that the House had to consider was, whether they would allow a company such as the Great Northern, gigantic in its resources, strong in its Parliamentary influence, and overwhelming in the number of its adherents, to introduce Session after Session into Parliament Bills that were substantially the same in their character and object. More over, the line proposed did not satisfy the requirements of the district. He hoped the House would on the present occasion mark its sense of the course pursued by the Great Northern Company in the matter by rejecting the Bill.
  MR. PACKEexpressed a hope that the House would read the Bill a second time.
  VISCOUNT GALWAYsaid, he considered that as their decision had been given once, it ought to be final. He therefore supported the Amendment.
  MR. ROEBUCKobserved, that he did not think the House was the best tribunal to try a matter of the kind before them. He recollected that when a direct line was proposed from London to Portsmouth the country was up in arms, and of course the Bill was thrown out, and the country gentlemen were left to mourn over their victory. The House would do well to send the matter to a Committee.
  MR. MONCKTON MILNESagreed that a Committee was the proper tribunal. but then it should be made a condition that the losing party should pay the costs. It was because he and his friends had al ready been heavily mulcted, owing to the unjust constitution of that tribunal, that they appealed to the House to settle the matter at once.
  MR. MASSEYsaid, he should have been inclined to vote for the second reading of the Bill if its merits had not already been investigated before a Select Commit tee. Since then three attempts bad been made to re-open that decision, but unsuccessfully, and that was a fact to which due weight should be attached. No very im-
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  portant public interests were involved in the case, the object being merely to construct nine or ten miles of railway to relieve a very large and increasing traffic upon the Great Northern line. He was satisfied that the case had been sufficiently heard, and he should vote for the Amendment of his hon. Friend.
  Second Reading negatived without a division.

REFORM OF PARLIAMENT.

  QUESTION.
  MR. COXsaid, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce this Session a Bill to amend the Representation of the People in Parliament?
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Mr. Speaker, it is not the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce a Bill on that subject this Session.

TREATY WITH JAPAN.—QUESTION.
MR. WHITEsaid, he wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Why Nee-e-gata, or some other convenient Port on the West Coast of Nipon, was not opened to British Trade on the 1st day of January, 1860, as was stipulated by the third article of the Treaty with Japan; and whether British subjects will be allowed to reside in the city of Yedo, as was likewise stipulated in the same article of the above-named Treaty?
MR. LAYARDreplied, that Her Majesty's Government had not thought it expedient to ask the Japanese Government to open this Port of Nee-e-gata on the West Coast of Nipon, or to allow British subjects to reside in Yedo. In a few days the Papers relating to Japan would be laid upon the table of the House, and the hon. Gentleman would then see why that decision had been come to.

MILITARY MURDERS.—QUESTION.
MR. RICHARDSONsaid, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, What precautions have been taken to prevent the repetition of the numerous Murders of their Officers by Soldiers in the British Army; and whether it is in contemplation to discontinue the practice of permitting Soldiers to retain ball cartridge in their barrack rooms?
SIR GEORGE LEWIS: Sir, I have had under consideration the alternative contemplated by the second branch of the hon. Gentleman's question,—namely, the depriving of Soldiers in all cases of ball cartridges, with a view to prevent those very disastrous occurrences of which there have been several recent instances. On consulting with the military authorities, it appeared to me very doubtful whether it was possible to make any regulation on the subject which would be effectual, because in most regiments there is a system of frequent ball practice, and it is also necessary to serve out Cartridges to soldiers on guard, on escort duty, and on various other occasions of a similar nature. It would be easy for any ill-disposed person to secrete a single ball Cartridge, and it would be almost impossible buy any vigilance to make it certain that the exact number served out were returned into store. Under these circumstances, I shall not advise the Horse Guards to make any regulation on that subject. However, I have under consideration an alteration in the law by which, in the case of murders committed by private soldiers on their superior Officers, the trial and punishment will follow the offence more speedily than under the present procedure. I trust a Bill giving effect to this alteration will shortly be laid on the table of the House.

UNITED STATES—BLOCKADE OF THE SOUTHERN PORTS.—QUESTION.
LORD ROBERT CECILsaid, he wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, How soon, the Papers which have been promised upon the subject of the American Blockade, are likely to be laid upon the table?
MR. LAYARDsaid, the papers referring to the subject were being prepared with every possible despatch, and he hoped they would be laid on the table by the end of the week; but if not by that time, they would be produced as Boon as possible afterwards.

MARRIAGES OF AFFINITY.

  QUESTION.
  MR. BLACKBURNsaid, he wished to ask the hon. Member for Pontefract, Whether, as his Marriages of Affinity Bill extends to Ireland and Scotland, it is his intention to proceed with the second reading on so early a day as to-morrow?
  Mr. MONCKTON MILNESsaid, he
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  must beg to assure the hon. Member that his absence on the previous day, when the same question had been asked, was not attributable to want of courtesy. He had seen the question for the first time on his return to the House. A week had elapsed since he acceded to the desire which was expressed that the operation of this Bill should be extended to Ireland, and such an interval was surely sufficient. He had made arrangements which, he regretted to say, would prevent his acceding to the request now preferred by the hon. Gentleman.

AMALGAMATION OF THE INDIAN ARMY.—QUESTION.
COLONEL GILPINsaid, he rose to ask the Secretary of State for India, Whether, in consequence of the effects of amalgamation upon the prospects of a considerable number of Officers in India, many of whom had rendered good service to the State, and who have already lost the money paid for their promotion on the faith of a General Order of the Court of Directors, dated May 1858, and who are now receiving Indian pay and allowances for doing comparatively nothing, these Officers or any of them, will be allowed the option (in accordance with the recommendation of the Commissioners) of retiring upon a moderate bonus?
SIR CHARLES WOODsaid, the hon. and gallant Gentleman was probably aware that an offer had been made on the part of the Government to a number of officers of the late Indian armies of the ranks of Lieutenant-Colonel, Major, and Captain, that they should be entitled to retire, if they should think it desirable, on very liberal terms. A smaller number of officers accepted the offer than it extended to. Besides this, a bonus had been offered to all officers entitled to do so, and beyond this he did not think the Government would be justified in making any further concession.

LAND DEBENTURES (IRELAND).

  LEAVE.
  MR. VINCENT SCULLYsaid, he rose to ask for leave to bring in a Bill for authorizing transferable debentures to be charged upon land in Ireland. The subject was one which he should not have had the presumption to bring before the House, were it not that to which of all others he had

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  devoted his especial attention. He might say that it was the subject on which originally he came into Parliament. When he had the honour of submitting the matter to the House on a former occasion, it was as a portion of a much greater measure to facilitate the transfer of land in Ireland by means of registration of title. That measure had obtained a second reading in June, 1853, and was referred to a Select Committee over which the right hon. Gentleman the present Speaker presided Although he had confined his measure to Ireland, the subject was one equally interesting to England, as, if it worked beneficially for Ireland, it would, no doubt, be adopted here as soon as it found it convenient to do so. The object of his measure was to simplify the charges upon land. He had j intended to bring forward a more extensive measure, but the larger portion of the subject he would not then dwell upon, because he saw that it had been made the subject of the day. It was the only species of reform mentioned in Her Majesty's speech; and he was happy to see from that morning's papers that it had been brought forward in another place by the Lord Chancellor. However, he felt that it was open to him to do what he proposed on the present occasion, because the noble and learned Lord's scheme did not include any system of land debentures. The House would recollect that a Royal Commission had been appointed to consider the question of registration of titles. He had the honour of being one of the Commissioners, and his plan was considered by them. In page 17 of their report the Commissioners stated—
  "With regard to the system of land debentures proposed by Mr. Scully's plan, we conceive that it is not within the range of the inquiry submitted to us, and therefore do not recommend it, There is not in England any adequate machinery for ascertaining judicially the value of land, through a public map or general valuation, such as exists in Ireland. Although we do not recommend the adoption of a judicial system of land debentures, we think it right to observe that there may be facilities for trying it in a proper manner in Ireland, where strong opinions have been expressed in its favour."
  The system of land debentures which he now proposed, and which he had proposed for the last fifteen years, was simply that through the machinery of a land tribunal there should be a mode of investigating and ascertaining the fair and proper value of land, and that the Court should be at liberty to authorize the issue of debentures
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  chargeable on the land, say to about the moiety of its value. If, for instance, the Judicial Tribunal considered that the annual value of certain land was £1,000, and the selling value £20,000, or twenty years' purchase, the might issue statutable Parliamentary debentures to the amount of £10,000. There might be 100 of these debentures, of the value of £100 each; which would have equal priority, and bear an equal rate of interest payable upon stated days. There were abundant precedents for the establishment of land debentures; but no general plan of the kind which he proposed had ever been adopted in this country. In Hanover, Prussia, and other parts of the continent, however, the principle had been recognised. In 1852 it was introduced with much advantage into France, through the system of Cridit Fonder, The principles and operation of the Prussian system were fully explained in a treatise, published in 1853, by the hon. Member for Westmeath, and also in an article in the Westminster Review for October, 1857. As to land banks or land companies, be believed that the landlords of Ireland would not at present avail themselves of such establishments, though they would take up what he proposed. The advantages of land debentures were very obvious, and would be participated in by all classes. At present, when a gentleman, having land to the value of £1,000 a year, wanted to borrow £10,000, he had to employ an attorney, incur heavy law costs, and sometimes to pay a large commission to the person who procured the loan; and in charging his estate with £10,000 he, in most cases, did so serious an injury to himself that it would have been better for him to have sold half his land. Charges incurred in that way were seldom got rid of—not in one case out of ten. Let any one put himself in the position of an owner, or buyer, or seller of land. If a man bought land to the extent of £20,000, it would be often convenient to pay a portion of the purchase-money by means of debentures of this description. If, on the other I hand, a landowner became a seller of land, it was probable he would have more bidders for his estate, and would obtain a better price for it. An encumbered owner would be manifestly benefited by the ability to issue such debentures, and the unencumbered owner would not be injured by it. He had already fully described I the nature of his proposal in a speech

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  which he had delivered in that House in May, 1853. If any hon. Gentleman wished to read it, he had a copy at his service, and its perusal would save hon. Members the trouble of hearing him at much length on the present occasion. The description of land debentures which it would be desirable to issue was matter of detail, and might be safely left to the Landed Estates Court. It would be sufficient that they should pass from hand to hand with a Parliamentary title. Under the English Lands Improvement Act of 1853 certain land debentures were empowered to be issued, which might be transferred to bearer. There were many, high authorities in favour of some such plan for Ireland. The Royal Commission on Registration of Title had in substance approved of the general principle—
  "A statutory enactment conferring all the powers which a mortgagee now usually possesses under distinct provisions of his deed, coupled with a registration of the charge, as well as of the land, might probably be framed so as to give to charges on land the same advantages and the same facilities of transfer as those which attach to railway debentures."
  Among the witnesses who had given their evidence generally in favour of the principle of the plan he proposed, were Mr. Commissioner Longfield, Mr. Commissioner Hargreave, Master Brooke, Sir Richard Griffith (who was well acquainted with the ordnance survey and general valuation of Ireland), Sir Mathew Barrington, Sir Mathew Sausse, Chief Justice of Bombay, and other experienced persons. Mr. Commissioner Hargreave said, in his answers to the Registration Commissioners—
  "I think that the creation, transfer, and extinguishment of charges on land ought to be rendered as simple as the transfer of the land itself; but I have not considered any plan for effecting that object, except the one proposed by Mr. Vincent Scully. I should regard this as an important feature of any permanent system of land transfer, and I think it would greatly increase the value of securities on land, and tend to diminish the average rate of interest at which landed proprietors would be able to obtain advances."
  Mr. Hargreave spoke with the high authority of a Commissioner of the Encumbered Estates Court. At present it was considered discreditable to a man to mortgage his property, and if he were in difficulties it was sometimes his ruin. But if the proposed description of charge were sanctioned, there would be nothing discreditable in a landowner with an estate, say
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  of £1,000 a year, availing himself of the privilege of obtaining debentures to the extent of £10,000, which would be useful at any time to stock his farm, to give a portion to one of his children, or for other purposes. Should any objection be made to the Bill, he would take the liberty of renewing the subject on the second reading, but he hoped that the House would allow not only the first, but the second reading also, without any necessity for his troubling it further.
  MR. POLLARD-URQUHARTseconded the Motion. The supporters of the measure were not asking for any special power in asking for a power of issuing land debentures, and he thought there was every reason to induce the Legislature to listen to those whose object it was to ameliorate the burdens upon land. By the existing system, not only was the interest on money borrowed on land enhanced, but the general expense of management much increased. It had been calculated that this increase amounted to as much as 1½ per cent, and he believed that, by a well-considered measure, the interest on loans on the security of land might be lowered so much as to form a sinking fund sufficient to pay off a mortgage in one generation. A similar plan had been tried in Prussia and in France with great success. It was introduced into Prussia by Frederick H. at a time when, consequent on the great war in which Prussia had been engaged, the condition of Prussian landlords was no better than that of Irish landowners immediately after the famine. And the plan had been productive of great benefit. The same thing had been tried in France also with great success. He knew but of two objections to the plan, first, that it would give too great facilities to borrowers. But mortgages were frequently resorted to to pay off debts already incurred, and the existence of a system which rendered borrowing expensive added to the evils which the landowner was suffering under. In the next place it was objected that the debentures would go into currency, but that objection would equally apply to bankers' cheques and bills of exchange.
  MR. H. HERBERTsaid, he was not quite prepared to recognise the great advantages which were expected by the hon. Mover and Seconder to flow from this scheme. Both speakers had assumed that it was a great advantnge to facilitate mortgages of land in Ireland. But, notwithstanding the difficulties which sur-

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  rounded the borrowing of money on landed security, it was well known that Irish landlords had contrived to borrow pretty extensively. Besides, he looked on the scheme as a step in the direction of a reversal of the policy which originated the Encumbered Estates Courts, which it was generally acknowledged had led to highly beneficial results. The House had been asked whether it was not an advantage to enable a man to buy a property which he could charge with half the purchase money. In other words, to purchase property which he had not the money to pay for. In his (Mr. Herbert's) opinion, it must be deemed more beneficial for the purchaser to buy half the estate and pay for it. At all events, he hoped that ample time would be given for a discussion of the measure, and that the subject would receive from the Government that consideration which its importance demanded.
  MR. GEORGEsaid, he thought it right to draw the attention of his hon. and learned Friend to the circumstance that it was the intention of the right hon. and learned Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Whiteside) with the concurrence of one of the Judges of the Landed Estates Court in Ireland, to introduce a Bill somewhat analogous to the Bill which it was now I sought to bring in. Under these circumstances he reserved to himself and to his right hon. Friend the right of dealing with this Bill hereafter as they might think proper.
  SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, that no doubt the hon. Member for the County of Cork had given great consideration and attention to the subject; but, at the same time, as the House did not yet know the details of his Bill, the discussion of the proposition had better not be entered upon until some further opportunity.
  MR. HADFIELDremarked, that the practice of purchasing£100,000 worth of land with £50,000, and borrowing the remainder, had led to one of the difficulties which had rendered the establishment of the Encumbered Estates Court necessary. Supposing there were many lenders on one estate, as the hon. Member for Cork proposes, and the owner wanted to sell an acre, would not the concurrence of all the mortgagees be necessary? Supposing, further, the interest not to be I paid, who was to foreclose? who was to take possession? who was to receive the rents? Legislation concerning real estate appeared to be running wild. Five Bills
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  affecting land had been introduced into the other House only last night. It was a very difficult thing, indeed, to alter the present law affecting landed estates, and he had not yet heard a description of any machinery by which advantageous changes could be effected. So far from removing the difficulties in dealing with real property, the proposed course of legislation seemed to multiply them, and instead of diminishing the expense to increase it. He could not see how the matter could be profitably dealt with unless the House were prepared to register estates in the same manner as Consols or railway and canal stock were registered, and to give a trustee of the legal estate an absolute right to transfer the property discharged of all equitable claims upon it.
  MR. VINCENT SCULLYsaid, he was surprised to find himself misunderstood by the right hon. Member for Kerry (Mr. H Herbert), who, as long ago as April, 1831, was selected as the organ of the Irish landlords for submitting a petition for a similar measure to the consideration of the then Attorney General, Sir John Romilly. Instead of encouraging the encumbrance of estates the Bill would limit the amount to half the value.
  Leave given.
  Bill for authorizing transferable Debentures to be charged upon Land in Ireland ordered to be brought in by Mr. SCULLY and Mr. POLLARD-URQUHART.

TRADE MARKS BILL.

  COMMITTEE. RESOLUTION. FIRST READING.
  Trade Marks—considered in Committee. (In the Committee.)
  MR. ROEBUCKsaid, that the subject he was about to bring under the consideration of the Committee was one of great importance. As he had no personal experience of the manufactures of this country, the statement he was about to make was founded chiefly on facts derived from some of his constituents, and he deemed it the duty of a legislator to state nothing except that which he really believed. His knowledge of the subject also was chiefly confined to the hardware manufacture, and he trusted, therefore, that those hon. Members who were acquainted with other branches of industry would freely state their experience upon the subject. He would first of all mention the object he had in view, and would then state shortly the means by which he sought to attain

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  that object. The manufacturers of this country had, by dint of labour, industry, and skill acquired for themselves great reputation; and when a man had manufactured an article—say a table-knife, for which he had obtained a reputation—he wished, when it was sold, that it should be known to be of his manufacture, and he therefore not only put his name to the article, but also affixed to it his mark or symbol. That mark might be two crossed arrows, and the man's article so marked obtained a reputation, and the mark itself acquired a money value. Now, all he had in view by his proposal was to preserve to that man his mark or symbol. It was not desired to throw any difficulty or obstruction in the way of any honest man doing an honest act. Let a manufacturer make a table-knife, and put whatever mark he pleased on it; but let not the forgery of another man's mark be put on the article. He was well aware that a man who had a bad reputation in trade was anxious to avail himself of the credit attached to the name of one who had the character of supplying good articles, and he should perhaps illustrate better what he meant, not by a reference to our own manufacturers, although he believed there was no small amount of roguery in England, but by calling attention to the proceedings of some manufacturers abroad. Within the last month one of his constituents had been addressed by a Prussian manufacturer to the following effect:—
  "I will make for you an article of hardware with any Sheffield mark you please. You have only to send to me and to tell me what mark you wish to have put on it. Not only will I do this, but I shall put the article in a wrapper of the Sheffield manufacturer, or one so like it that nobody can perceive the difference."
  Why, he would ask, did the Prussian manufacturer act in that manner? There were strong reasons. He wanted to come into the market and to compete with the Englishman advantageously; and how was that effected? He manufactured a bad article, affixing to it an English mark and price, which was a high one; while he made a good article, affixed to it his own mark, and put upon it a lower price: so that both standing in the market together, a sort of slur was cast upon the Englishman, inasmuch as the foreigner could say, "Here are my goods, see how much better and cheaper they are." So that of two articles made by the same man, the one was attended by a forgery, and the other
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  with a lie. His constituents had had for many years a corporation in the town of Sheffield called the Cutlers' Company, and that company had had the case of the trade marks of individuals so regulated that any man might have his trade mark registered at any time. What was it, then, that he wished to have done? He desired to see the English manufacturer so protected that he might use his own symbols free from forgery, so that the world might know that the mark which he called his trade mark was his alone. With the view to effect that object, he asked for leave to bring in a Bill. He had such a measure in his pocket, drawn up by certain persons in the town of Sheffield; but he must, at the same time, state that the difficulties which he had pointed out also attended the trade of Manchester and Birmingham. There were, he was afraid, many persons both in and out of England, who obtained a dishonest livelihood by forging those trade marks. An instance had been laid before him in the case of a reel of thread with the name of the maker on the end of it, in which the mark of a manufacturer had been imitated, the reel containing, instead of 500 yards, only 200 yards, which was thus palmed off as the larger measure. Now, the man who committed an act of that kind was not, he contended, an honest manufacturer, but a forger. What he desired was, to put down as far as possible such proceedings for the future. He did not, however, expect the House would pass the Bill which he asked leave to introduce; nor did he ask hon. Members to take that course. All he desired was to be allowed to bring it in, so that he might have standing ground for the next step, which would be to move that a Select Committee might be appointed to which his Bill and the whole subject might be referred. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. M. Gibson) had also announced it to be his intention to introduce a measure of a similar nature, which would, he supposed, in like manner be referred to the Committee, so that evidence from the various towns of England might be adduced before a tribunal competent to deal with the matter. The Committee might have the aid of professional men, who would be able to deal with the law points involved, and as all he sought was their assistance and that of others in putting down fraud, the Committee would not, be trusted, oppose him in that endeavour. He had no hope of passing the Bill as it

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  stood without inquiry, but still he thought I it right to put hon. Members to some extent in possession of its contents. In the first place, then, it made the forgery of a man's trade mark a misdemeanour, while in the next place it gave a summary jurisdiction in the case of such forgery. Besides that, it sought to give effect to a law of reciprocity between ourselves and other nations, so that if another country protected English manufactures abroad, we should protect theirs at home; and that, as an Englishman might register his name in a book of registration, so might a foreigner, who would then be entitled to the protection which the former enjoyed, it being made a sine qua non that there should be complete reciprocity. He would not further take up the time of the Committee, but in moving for leave to introduce the Bill, he would conclude by expressing an opinion that a great service would be rendered to the manufacturing interests if the subject were investigated by persons competent to deal with it, and that in this manner the skill and industry of the honest trader would be protected, while no one would suffer but the rogue.
  Resolution moved,
  "That the Chairman be directed to move the House that leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Law relating to the counterfeiting or fraudulent use or appropriation of Trade Marks, and to secure to the Proprietors of Trade Marks in certain cases the benefit of International Protection."
  MR. MILNER GIBSONsaid, he merely rose for the purpose of saying that the Government had no objection to assent to the course which the hon and learned Gentleman proposed. A Bill had been introduced last Session with a view to remedy the evils of which he complained. That Bill had passed through the other House of Parliament, but it had not been proceeded with in the House of Commons owing to that absence of inquiry into details which it was the hon. and learned Gentleman's intention to secure by referring his Bill to a Select Committee. The Government had given notice of the introduction of a measure that very evening on the same subject, which they should; be glad to refer to the same Select Committee, so that probably out of the two measures, and as the result of the investigation, a practical and satisfactory scheme might be devised. Although, however, almost all persons were agreed in condemning the forgery of trade marks as a crime,
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  still it was extremely difficult in practice to give effect to that opinion without attempting to do more than was intended, and thus expose innocent persons to the hardship of vexatious prosecutions. The question which, under the circumstances, naturally suggested itself was, what was a trade mark, and how far were A and B entitled to the exclusive use of such a mark, so that C might be liable to punishment for adopting it? It was not sufficient to show that a person used a certain trade mark to entitle another to prosecute him, but that it had been so used as to become known to the world that it was the mark of the person by whom it was employed. With respect to the question so far as it related to foreigners, he would not say that he quite concurred with the hon. and learned Gentleman in the course which he proposed to take. That course appeared to him to be of a somewhat retaliatory character, inasmuch as it pointed to our withholding protection from other countries unless they extended to us reciprocity, He believed he might add that the complaint had been made in foreign countries, that though England gave the benefit of her laws to foreigners, those laws were so bad that no practical redress was to be obtained when foreign trade marks were forged. We ought, therefore, to make our laws such as would afford a practical remedy both to foreign and home manufacturers. When foreigners found they could obtain redress in this country for the fraudulent use of their trade marks they would, no doubt, afford similar protection to our own countrymen. He had heard it alleged that the forgery of trade marks was largely practised in Prussia, but he was not aware that any appeal had been made by an Englishman to the laws of that State, and, until that was done, it could not, of course, be asserted that no legal redress could be procured there. The question of registration was very difficult. It was altogether a different case from the registration of designs. In the case of designs registration created a new kind of property, which would not otherwise have existed, but in the case of trade marks the operation would not have the same effect, since the law already recognised a property in those marks and rendered it a civil offence to forge them. Registration might, therefore, prove an obstacle in the way of the honest possessors of trade marks, because they would require to pay fees and go through forms which were not now necessary before

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  they could sue and defend their rights. These, however, were mere details. The Government fully acknowledged that it was necessary to do something to remedy the evils complained of; but at the same time they were fully alive to the nice questions of law that arose concerning trade marks, and felt that care must be taken to prevent innocent traders from being exposed to frivolous and vexatious prosecutions.
  MR. CRAWFORDremarked, that the course taken by the Government on the subject would prove very satisfactory to his constituents. Although there were not many manufacturers in the city the large warehousemen were deeply interested in the Bill, so far as it would render them liable to prosecution for innocently selling articles which had fraudulent trade marks upon them; and he was glad, therefore, to hear that they would have an opportunity allowed them of stating their views to a select committee.
  MR. LOCKEsaid, that he agreed with the hon. and learned Gentleman, the Member for Sheffield; but there was another fraud to which attention ought to be drawn—namely, the practice of manufacturers themselves putting false trade marks upon their goods. For example, a case was tried not long ago in the Court of Queen's Bench, when it was proved that a well-known manufacturer had been in the habit of sending reels of cotton into the market with less cotton on the reels than the figures on them denoted. He thought that a summary conviction should be provided for in such cases. He was at Paris, when Mr. Cobden was there negotiating the French treaty, and that Gentleman's Secretary had told him that one of the principal difficulties with which they had to contend in obtaining reciprocal legislation for the protection of trade marks was the very fact that English manufacturers were found to falsify their own trade marks, the Gentleman to whom he referred having specially mentioned the false quantities on reels of cotton as an instance of the frauds in question.
  MR. HADFIELDsaid, he thought the Bill ought to empower the Government to enter into arrangements for reciprocity on this subject with foreign countries. He held registration to be essential, and saw no difficulty in managing it. An old established system of registration for trade marks existed in Sheffield, and had worked very well. The manufacturers of that town complained bitterly of the ill-treat-
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  ment which they received on the Continent, where their trade marks were widely pirated. When they cautioned the public by advertisement against the forgery, the impostors actually had the effrontery to advertise that they alone sold the genuine article. He trusted there would be no difficulty in providing a safe, economical, and efficient means of protection for honest traders.
  MR. CRUM-EWINGremarked, that he should support the motion for the introduction of the Bill, the question being one in which his constituents were deeply interested.
  MR. MILNER GIBSONsaid, that he rose to state that his hon. and learned Friend, the Attorney General, who had been unfortunately obliged to leave the House, would lend his assistance in the consideration of this subject, upon which he had already bestowed much attention.
  MR. ROEBUCKsaid, that the right hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Trade, had referred to the effect which the Bill might have upon the innocent manufacturer; but he (Mr. Roebuck) would remind him that the innocent manufacturer was not in the practice of imitating the trade marks of other persons. [Mr. Milner Gibson: I spoke of the innocent seller.] They need not be afraid that the measure would injure any honest man. The measure might injure rogues, and he should be very glad if it did so.
  Resolution agreed to.
  Resolution reported.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. ROEBUCK, and Mr. HADFIELD.

AUSTRALIAN EXPLORING EXPEDITION.

  MOTION FOR DESPATCHES.
  MR. CHILDERSsaid, that in moving an Address for the production of Copy of all Despatches from Sir Henry Barkly and the other Colonial Governors upon the subject of the successful crossing of the Australian continent by the expedition under the charge of Mr. Burke, he would ask the indulgence of the House while he called their attention to this important expedition. He would remind the House that considerable sums of money had been voted on previous occasions for the purpose of defraying the cost of similar expeditions, and these had been supplemented by colonial votes and subscriptions; but that, until the present occasion, the Australian continent had never been success-

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  fully crossed, either from cast to west or from south to north. Formerly the colonies who had borne the expense of these expeditions had been those immediately adjoining the land explored; but on this occasion the expense was borne entirely by a colony which would appear to have had no Interest in the matter whatever, being separated by three other colonies from the territory explored, but to have been actuated purely by public spirit; and it was a curious fact that this expedition should have been the first that had been entirely successful. He thought an act of such public spirit on the part of one of our youngest colonies justified him in bringing this matter under the notice of the House. It would not become him to speak at any length of the circumstances which attended the prosecution of the expedition. It was well known that it ended in the lamentable deaths of many of the explorers, but the great objects which were sought by it had been entirely obtained. He hoped, however, that he might say a few words as a tribute to the very remarkable man who was the leader of the expedition, and to whose energy and ability it mainly owed its success. Mr. Burke, with whose name the successful discovery of large tracts of country in the Australian colonies was connected, was a brother of the gallant Engineer officer whose deeds at Silistria in the early part of the Crimean war were so famous. No man was more remarkable for public spirit or for great energy and talents. He was an accomplished musician and artist, indeed a man of the most varied acquirements. After the death of his brother, Mr. Burke threw up a lucrative position in the colony to take part in the Crimean war, and he again resigned a good appointment to take charge of this expedition, in the course of which he and two of his companions, Wills and Becker, had lost their lives. As to the circumstances of their death and the abandonment of the place at which they ought to have been met he would say nothing, because the whole subject was under investigation by a distinguished commission appointed in the colony. But as to the result of the expedition, He might say that it had been to establish for the first time the fact that, in addition to the territory occupied by the great colonies situated on the eastern and southern coasts of Australia, there was to the north land abundantly supplied with good water and well suited for agricultural and pastoral purposes, and sufficient for the
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  accommodation of equally important settlements. At the present time, when new territory suitable for the growth of cotton was everywhere sought after, it was of the greatest importance that it should be known that such had been discovered ready at once for the occupation of the white man, and that the Government should come forward in the matter and add one if not more to the many rich dependencies of which the country boasted. The dreams of fifteen or twenty years ago, those dreams which were shared in by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and in which the House and the country for a long time joined, but which were thrown back by previous failures, were now established facts; and nothing would be more easy, with the co-operation of enterprising settlers and the Crown, than to establish a colony on the northern coast of Australia, which would add as much credit, he hoped, to the English name as the great settlements in the south. Upon the subject of this expedition the noble Duke at the head of the Colonial Office had said, that when the results were known, it would be time to see whether further steps ought to be taken by the English Government. He (Mr. Childers) thought that that time had now arrived, and the House would have to consider very soon the propriety of giving a proper establishment to the settlements which would spring up in the newly discovered districts. When the matter was dealt with, the House might expect the greatest advantages to accrue to this country, and therefore, while placing the greatest confidence in the course so far adopted by the Colonial Office, he hoped that the same would be pursued, and that the time would come when the colony of Burkesland would become one of the most flourishing of the British dependencies.
  MR. KINNAIRDsaid, that he hoped, after the statement of his hon. Friend, that the Government would consider whether some steps should not be taken to perpetuate the memory of the leader of this expedition. The country, which had derived great advantage from the extension of the British empire in that part of the world, would appreciate the devotedness of Mr. Burke and his brave companions, and he hoped that some steps would be taken by the Government to do honour to their memory.
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEsaid, that he was glad to be able to produce without delay the papers for which

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  his hon. Friend had called; and be thought it was only right that the Parliament o England should have in its possession an authentic account of the deeds of heroism and devotion which had added to the vast territories of the British crown, and provided space for new and flourishing colonies. He rejoiced that the attention of the House had been called to the gallant enterprise, a detailed account of which would be found in the papers laid upon the table; and he was glad also to have the opportunity on the part of the Colonial Office and the Government of expressing their sense of the public spirit and liberality of the authorities at Victoria in fitting out the recent expedition, and of the gallant devotion, and he was sorry to say self-sacrifice, of those brave men who took part in it. The papers he would have to lay upon the table would not be complete because the circumstances connected with the sad fatalities which constituted the most tragic part of the tale, and which led to the death of Mr. Burke, were under investigation at Melbourne. Moreover, at some future time, the Government would have to produce detailed accounts of those expeditions which had been sent out, in a spirit equal to that displayed in the despatch of the original expedition, for the purpose, if possible, of discovering the fate of the brave explorers. The interest felt in the colonies upon this matter had been so great, that not only had a fresh expedition been sent from Victoria, but it had been accompanied by separate expeditions from Southern Australia, from Queensland and from the Gulf of Carpentaria itself, where a steam sloop had been provided to render assistance in the search. In the interesting papers which he should place upon the table would be found a touching account, from the pen of Sir H. Barkly of the labours, sufferings, and deaths o the brave leaders of the late expedition. He believed the time was not far distant when population would rise upon the newly discovered territory, and he was sure that the names of Burke and Wills would ever be held in grateful remembrance by the colonists of Australia.
  Motion agreed to.

QUEEN'S COLLEGES (IRELAND).

  MOTION FOR A PAPER.
  MR. HENNESSYsaid, that he rose to move for a copy of a letter addressed from Dublin Castle in the month of October,
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  1861, by the Secretary of the Queen's University to the Registrar of Queen's College, Galway, referring to certain additional exhibitions or scholarships placed by the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant at the disposal exclusively of students attending the second year's course of the faculty of arts; likewise, for a return of the number of students of the second year's course of the faculty of arts in Queen's College, Galway, in each session separately, since the opening of the College to the present session (1862); with a statement of the actual number of the scholarships already provided by the Parliamentary grant and placed in each session at the disposal of the students of the second year's course of the faculty of arts in the said College, such return and statement to be furnished as follows:—Sessions 1850–1, and 1851–2; number of students, second year's course, faculty of arts; number of scholarships, second year's course, faculty of arts.
  SIR-ROBERT PEELsaid, the Government would offer no objection to the Motion if the hon. Member would consent to append to his Motion returns of the number of students who entered each of the Queen's Colleges in the sessions 1859–60, 1860–1, and 1861–2; of the number and values of the scholarships provided for each class, regarding the scholarships of the second, third, and fourth years as continuations of those of the first year; and of the total number of students attending the Queen's Colleges in each of the aforesaid sessions, distinguishing their religious denominations.
  MR. HENNESSYassented, and said that his Motion was in no wise dictated by any feeling of hostility to the Queen's Colleges. He merely asked for information.
  Motion agreed to.

SEWAGE OF TOWNS.

  SELECT COMMITTEE MOVED FOR.
  MR. BRADYsaid, that he rose to move for a Select Committee to inquire into the best means of utilizing the sewage of the cities and towns of England, with a view to the reduction of local taxation and the benefit of agriculture. He said that he regarded this as a subject of great national importance, but that there were several preliminary points which ought to precede its consideration. Firstly, it should be determined whether the sewage of cities and

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  towns was a valuable commodity, suited for agricultural purposes and likely to improve the land; secondly, which would be the best and cheapest method for carrying the sewage on to the land; thirdly, what would be the value of the sewage per ton, and further, whether the engineering difficulties could be overcome; for if they were considered insurmountable, to incur expense would be useless. The problem was one which it was absolutely necessary to solve. Both in a social and sanitary point of view, if some means could be devised of utilizing sewage, the greatest advantages would be obtained. As matters now stood, the most fearful results bad followed the neglect of the sewage question. Death stalked abroad in our courts and alleys, and many a strong man had been swept away by typhoid fever, the seeds of which had been sown when be was passing through them. He rejoiced that the great sewage works of the metropolis were progressing; and he expressed his firm belief that if those works proved successful, the example would be followed by every town in England, and London itself would be made one of (he most healthy cities in the world. Why, he asked, had not this question made progress? The House in some measure was at fault, for on looking at a report of the metropolitan commissioners of sewers, which had been printed by order of the House, he found that Mr. Wheatstone reported that the utilization of the sewage, except upon the principle of solidification, was an engineering and commercial impossibility. The fact was, that at that time Mr. Wheatstone had a patent for a process of solidification, which, as he had always been taken as an authority on the subject, was, to say the least, a most unfortunate circumstance. What, he asked, had been the consequence of a persistence in the present system? Why, that the waters of every river upon which a great town was built had been rendered poisonous, whereas, by the adoption of a system of utilizing the sewage thousands of pounds a year might be gained, and the water preserved pure and wholesome. Professor Liebeg had stated in one of his works, that if England wished to continue an agricultural country, she must avail herself of all the sewage of her great towns; and Dr. Purkins, guided by calculations which had been made by Professor Playfair, had stated that it was incontestible that the value of the sewage of England was no less than £93,283,000 a year. The gra-
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  dual decrease in the production of the corn-growing districts was a proof that a process of utilizing the sewage of towns was most necessary. It was supposed that the supply of guano would not last more than twenty years, and the time was come for providing a substitute. He saw the noble Lord at the head of the Government in his place, and as he knew the noble Lord was capable of mastering any subject, whether small or great, with which be bad to deal, he would read an extract from a speech which he addressed to the Agricultural Society at Lewes in 1852. On that occasion the noble Lord said—
  "But, gentlemen, I cannot but think that the progress in chemical science, and the application of that science to practical agriculture, may lead to something which will render you less anxious and solicitous about land; and that, instead of sending to the other end of the world for manure, we shall find something nearer home for the purpose. The dirt of our towns ought to be on our fields, and we ought not to allow decomposed substances in our towns to pollute the atmosphere, corrupt health, promote disease and pestilence, and destroy life. I am sure, if a system could be devised whereby substances which are noxious could be utilized, not only the health of the towns' population would be greatly improved, but the agricultural interest would derive great pecuniary advantages from the change."
  MR. POLLARD-URQUHARTsaid, he begged to second the Motion.
  Motion made and Question proposed.
  MR. COWPERsaid, that the utilization of sewage—that was, the removal of it from towns for the purposes of agriculture—had long been a problem which persons interested in the sanitary improvement of towns had endeavoured to solve. The late Board of Health had made many inquiries and valuable reports upon the subject, but hitherto very little progress had been made; for although the sewage of small towns under special circumstances could be advantageously applied to agriculture, as in the cases of Rugby and Watford, yet with regard to large towns, excepting the very remarkable and peculiar case of Edinburgh, science had failed in finding any system which was entirely satisfactory. He was not very sanguine that this branch of engineering and sanitary science would be likely to obtain much assistance from the labours of a Committee; yet since the hon. Gentleman was willing to undertake that inquiry, and as he bad shown by an elaborate speech that the subject was one requiring investigation, he should not object to the appointment of a committee, and

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  he sincerely hoped that some important result would follow its inquiries.
  Motion agreed to. Select Committee appointed.
  House adjourned at Twenty-five minutes to Eight o'clock.