Commons Sitting of 6 February 1860

MINUTES
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Registration of Births, &c, (Scotland).
2° Prisons (Scotland) Acts Continuance.
3° Newspapers, &c.

POSTPONEMENT OF THE FINANCIAL STATEMENT.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: I take the earliest opportunity of appealing to the indulgence of the House, and to advert to the course of business with respect to the Financial Statement. The House is probably aware that in consequence of the unfortunate indisposition of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he is unable to bring it forward to-night as he had intended to do. I trust that there is good reason for hoping and believing that on Friday night he will be in a condition to make his statement to the House. That statement will probably involve a considerable length of speech, and it will be desirable for my right hon. Friend to have the interval between this and then in which to regain his powers. I shall not have occasion, therefore, to ask the House to depart from its usual course of business on Thursday. Friday being our own natural day, my right hon. Friend will, I trust, make his statement on that day. I beg accordingly to give notice that on Friday night the Chancellor of the Exchequer will make his financial statement to the House.
MR. DISRAELI: I am sure we have all heard with universal regret the cause of the delay. I wish to ask the noble Viscount whether the commercial treaty with France, if it is ratified, will be laid on the table previous to the financial statement on Friday?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: It is the intention of my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to lay the Treaty on the table on Friday.
MR. BAXTERwished to ask the noble Viscount when it was proposed to take the debate on the Financial Statement and Treaty?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will make his statement on Friday, and it will then be for the House to decide, according to its pleasure, when the discussion arising from it shall take place.

ST. GEORGE'S-IN-THE-EAST.

  QUESTION.
  MR. BYNGcalled the attention of the Secretary of State for the Home Department to the outrages which had taken place on the previous day in the parish church of St. George's-in-the-East, and asked, Whether it was the right hon. Baronet's intention, either by legislative enactment or by giving more explicit directions to the police, to prevent, if possible, the repetition of such scenes in future?
  SIR GEORGE LEWIS: Before I answer the question of my hon. Friend, I must demur to the phraseology which he employs in designating the scandalous scenes which occur on the Sundays in the church of St. George' sin-the-East by the name of outrages. There is nothing, so far as the matter has been reported to me—and I have received to-day reports of what took place at the several services yesterday—which amounts to what is ordinarily understood as an "outrage," that is to say, a forcible breach of the peace. There is certainly one sense of the word "outrage," which may be applied to what is undoubtedly an offence against the decorum and propriety of public worship. But the House is aware that the law does not arm the police with a power of summary interference in case of a noisy disturbance, or an interruption of silence and order during public worship. I have taken the steps which appeared to me necessary for maintaining the public peace; and as far as I could collect the feeling of the House upon a former evening, there appeared to be many Members who thought I had gone even further than I was justified in going for the purpose of preventing disturbances. The steps which I have taken and which have been taken by Sir Richard Mayne, the Chief Commissioner of Police, appear
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  to me adequate for the purpose of preserving public order and preventing breaches of the public peace. Further than that I am not prepared to go; and I can only express my regret that the mode of performing Divine worship at St. George's-in-the-East, which the incumbent thinks fit to adopt, should he such as to create so much popular excitement.

THE STADE DUES.

  QUESTION.
  MR. J. L. RICARDOasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, What course the Government have taken in reference to the State Dues, and how far they have acted in accordance with the Report of the Committee appointed in the last Parliament to consider the subject?
  LORD JOHN RUSSELL: In answer to the hon. Gentleman I beg to state that I found that an opinion upon this subject had been given by the law officers of the late Government, I thought it proper, however, that the matter should be further investigated, and I submitted the question to the present Law Officers of the Crown. Their report, which is a very learned and able one, is to the effect that the only practical mode of dealing with the State Dues is to negotiate with a view to compensation being given for their remission. I have accordingly proposed to the Hanoverian Government that the treaty, which will expire in the course of a month, should be renewed for a few months longer, with the view of negotiating, in conjunction with the other States interested in the question, for the abolition of the dues on the ground of redemption,

SCHOOL SHIPS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. HORSFALLasked the Secretary to the Admiralty, Whether it was the intention of the Government to carry out the recommendation of the Manning Commission, as to placing twelve School Ships at the principal Commercial Ports; and if so, the probable time that will elapse before the scheme may be in operation?
  LORD CLARENCE PAGET: The hon. Gentleman is probably aware that the Commissioners for Manning the Navy recommended two distinct schemes for the education of boys. The first was that 2,000 boys should be brought up in training ships for the navy, all of them to belong to the

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  navy. The second was, that there should be another class of boys which should be educated, partly at the public expense, and partly at their own expense; and that for them an additional number of training ships should be provided. The Admiralty have taken a very largo sum in the Estimates I have just laid upon the table for the general schemes of the Royal Commission; but we found that a very great expenditure would be incurred in preparing training ships for the Royal Naval Volunteers, and also for the boys included in the first scheme, that the Admiralty think it would not be wise, at present, to hold out any hopes that ships will be prepared, during the ensuing financial year, for carrying further the scheme of the Commissioners in this respect; but I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we are fully alive to the importance of that matter, and we shall be very glad at some future period to take up this scheme of the Commissioners.

EDUCATION IN SCOTLAND.

  QUESTION.
  MR. CAIRDasked the Lord Advocate, Whether it is the intention of Government to introduce any measure this Session respecting Education in Scotland?
  THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid, that it was his intention to submit to the Government a measure for the purpose of regulating or abolishing tests in parochial schools in Scotland.

  CORONERS' FEES.—QUESTION.
  MR. COBBETTasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce any measure during the present Session to alter the Law as regards the payment of Coroners' Fees and Expenses.
  SIR GEORGE LEWISsaid, there was considerable uncertainty and inconvenience in the present state of the law with respect to the payment of those fees and expenses, on account of the conflicts between county magistrates and coroners as to the fees and expenses of the latter. The county magistrates frequently disallowed the expenses, and there was no appeal to any third power. The Secretary of State was often applied to, but had no jurisdiction in the matter. It was his intention, under these circumstances, to bring in a Bill for the purpose of giving to the
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  coroners an appeal to the Court of Queen's Bench in disputed cases respecting the payment of fees and expenses. He hoped that before long that power of appeal would lead to a decision of all the principal points in dispute, and if the law laid down by the Court were not satisfactory to the House, an amending measure might then be introduced.

  GOVERNOR OF THE CAPE OF GOOD HOPE.—QUESTION.
  MR. ARTHUR MILLSasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether there is any objection to lay on the Table of the House the Correspondence which has taken place between the Colonial Office and Sir George Grey, respecting his recall from the Capo of Good Hope, and his subsequent return to the Government of that Colony?
  MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUEsaid, the Secretary of State had no intention to volunteer the production of these papers, hut if any hon. Gentleman moved for them he should make no objection to produce them.

IRISH ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION.

  QUESTION.
  MR. VANCEasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to bring in any Bill during the present Session for the bettor regulation of the Irish Ecclesiastical Commission.
  MR. CARDWELLsaid, a Bill had been drawn by the Commissioners and was then in his hand; and when he had an opportunity to introduce any Bills on the subject of Ireland he would state the course which he intended to pursue with regard to it. He was not prepared, at present, to give any notice of Irish measures, except a measure on the subject of the tenure of land in that country.

  PROBATE AND ADMINISTRATION (INDIA) BILL.—COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee, according to Order.
  (In the Committee.)
  Clause 1.
  In reply to Mr. GREGSON,
  SIR CHARLES WOODsaid, the first clause of the Bill was not limited to notes registered and transferable, but applied also to "enfaced notes" which continued

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  to be held by the proprietors, and were presented periodically for the half-year's interest. Also, that the clause did not include notes carrying coupons; but he had no objection so to alter it as to place the holders of them in the same position as the holders of "enfaced notes," provided the holders of notes with coupons attached would consent to allow themselves to be placed in the same position as the holders of "enfaced notes," that is, to receive their interest only by drafts from the India House.
  Clause agreed to, as were the remaining clauses.
  House resumed.
  Bill reported.

PRISONS (SCOTLAND) ACTS CONTINUANCE BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid, the Bill was only intended to be in force for a year, to enable the proceedings that were going on under the old Act to be completed. Next Session he intended to bring in a Bill to place the management of the prisons of Scotland on an entirely new footing. But it was absolutely necessary, in order to enable some money to be raised, to proceed with this Bill.
  MR. CAIRDgave notice of his intention to propose some Amendments in Committee.
  Bill read 2°.

REGISTRATION OF BIRTHS, ETC. (SCOTLAND) BILL,

  LEAVE. FIRST READING.
  SIR WILLIAM DUNBAR SIR WILLIAM DUNBAR moved for leave to bring in a Bill.
  "To amend two Acts of the seventeenth and eighteenth years, and of the eighteenth year, of Her present Majesty, relating to the Registration of Births, Deaths, and Marriages in Scotland, and also an Act of the nineteenth and twentieth years of the same reign, relating to the Law of Marriage in Scotland."
  After stating the provisions of the Acts of 1854 and 1855, the hon. Gentleman said that time and experience had developed deficiencies and suggested improvements in those measures, and hence the necessity for the present Bill. As the measure was one entirely of detail he would defer any further explanation until the Bill was in the hands of Members.
  Leave given;
  Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir WILLIAM DUNBAR, Sir GEORGE LEWIS, and the LORD ADVOCATE.
  Bill presented and read 1°.
  House adjourned at a Quarter after Five o'clock.