Commons Sitting of 21 June 1859

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—Poor Law Boards (Payment of Debts).
OPERATIONS IN INDIA.—THE VOTE OF THANKS.

  LETTER OF ACKNOWLEDGMENT FROM SIR ARCHDALE WILSON.
  MR. SPEAKER MR. SPEAKER acquainted the House, that he had received from Major General
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  Sir Archdale Wilson, K.C.B., baronet, of Delhi, a Letter in return to the Thanks of this House, communicated to him in obedience to their Commands of the 14th day of April last: and the said Letter was read.

CHARING-CROSS RAILWAY BILL.

  THIRD READING.
  Queen's Consent signified.
  Order for Third Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,— "That the Bill be now read the third time."
  SIR DE LACY EVANS SIR DE LACY EVANS moved an Amendment that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that she will be graciously pleased to appoint a Commission to investigate and report upon the various railway projects of which the termini are proposed to be established within or in the immediate vicinity of the metropolis.
  Amendment proposed,
  "To leave out from the word 'That' to the end of the Question, in order to add the words 'an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to appoint a Commission to investigate and report upon the various Railway projects of which the Termini are proposed to be established within or in the immediate vicinity of the Metropolis,"
  instead thereof:
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  MR. INGHAM, Chairman of the Committee to which the Bill had been referred, urged that the delay caused by the appointment of a Commission of this kind at this period would be practically fatal to the Bill. The evidence before the Committee was comprehensive and satisfactory, showing that the proposed line was calculated greatly to relieve the traffic of the streets, and the Admiralty and the Board of Trade had both expressed opinions in its favour on the ground of its tendency to distribute the traffic.
  MR. TITE, as one of the governors of St. Thomas's Hospital, objected to this plan, as interfering with that institution. The proposed line started from the South Eastern terminus, passed through the Borough, and crossed the river to a terminus at Hungerford Market. The line passed within eight feet of one of the wards of the hospital, on a level as high as the second floor of the building, and it was the deliberate opinion of the medical officers of

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  the establishment, that if the railway carriages were constantly passing, that ward, and perhaps the whole of the hospital, would be useless as a receptacle for the sick poor. There were no less than 500 beds in the hospital, not one of which was at this moment unoccupied, which showed the value of the institution. In 1841 the South Eastern and Brighton Companies were desirous of improving their termini, and the hospital having given them every facility, the South Eastern agreed not to encroach further on their property; but that Company were the principal promoters of this scheme, and had contributed £300,000 to its capital.
  COLONEL WILSON PATTENsuggested the impropriety of this Motion at this stage of the Bill. If the Motion had been made on the second reading there might have been some reason for it; but the Bill having passed through Committee, it ought not to be made on the third reading.
  SIR DE LACY EVANSthen withdrew his Motion.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read 3°, and passed. [New Title.]

LONDON (CITY) GAS BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,— "That the Bill be now read a second time."
  MR. ALDERMAN CUBITT MR. ALDERMAN CUBITT moved that the Bill be read a second time that day three months. As a member of the City Board of Health he stated, on the authority of the medical officers of the Board, that the company's works were a principal contributor to the nuisances which polluted the river.
  Amendment proposed, "To leave out the word 'now,' and at the end of the Question to add the words 'upon this Day Six Months.'"
  Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
  COLONEL NORTHurged that the Bill had passed through a full examination by a Committee of the House of Lords, and he thought it ought to be read a second time. He had been over the works of the company, and could assert, from his own knowledge, that nothing could be more admirable than the way in which the business was managed. He read testimonials from various scientific gentlemen to the
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  effect that there was nothing in the works injurious to health, and also referred to a Petition in favour of the Bill signed by a great number of inhabitants residing in the neighbourhood of the works, barristers of the Temple, and others.
  MR. CLIVE, without going into the merits of the Bill, suggested that the Amendment should be withdrawn, and the second reading be postponed for a fortnight until the responsible Members of the Government were in their places, for this, though a Private Bill, had reference to a department of the Government—the Board of Health.
  MR. W. JACKSONsaid, that postponing the second reading for a fortnight would be fatal to the Bill. He objected to the Home Department constituting itself a Committee of that House.
  MR. SOTHERON ESTCOURTrecommended that the Bill should be allowed to go before a Select Committee, where the sanitary question would be fully inquired into. If the result should be against the Bill, the House could of course reject the measure, even should it pass the Committee.
  MR. AYRTONalso supported the Motion, believing that inquiry was necessary, and not thereby pledging himself to support the Bill in any future stage.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read 2°, and committed.

  THE SHIPBUILDING DEPARTMENT OF THE NAVY. —QUESTION.
  MR. JACKSONasked the noble Lord the Secretary to the Admiralty (Lord Clarence Paget) whether he intended to proceed with the Motion for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the management and expenditure of the shipbuilding department of the Navy, notice of which stood on the paper in his name?
  LORD CLARENCE PAGETsaid, he was sure that his hon. Friend would give him credit for an earnest desire that there should be an inquiry into the matters connected with the shipbuilding department of the Admiralty, and he was quite certain that the noble Duke who now presided over the Admiralty had it equally at heart that this great branch of our naval service should be throughly looked into. If he now asked permission to withdraw the Motion of which he had given notice it was not that he at all desired to shirk the ques-

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  tion; but that he thought that his hon. Friend and those who, like him, were anxious for this inquiry should put some faith in the good intentions of the noble Duke and in his own. He only asked them not to spur a willing horse, and under these circumstances he should not proceed with the Motion which stood in his name.
  MR. JACKSONsaid, he should take up the Motion which the noble Lord had dropped and gave notice that in the next Session of Parliament he should move for a select Committee to inquire not only into the ship-building department, but also into the general expenditure of the Navy.

OUR NAVAL DEFENCES.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  SIR CHARLES NAPIERsaid, it was his intention to postpone the Motion for a Select Committee to inquire into the state of the Admiralty of which he had given notice; and said that he had been made very uneasy by a statement which he had heard had that forenoon been made by the Earl of Derby.
  MR. SPEAKERsaid, that the hon. and gallant Admiral could not make a speech unless he intended to conclude with a Motion.
  SIR CHARLES NAPIERsaid, that he would conclude with a Motion for an adjournment of the House. He had heard that the Earl of Derby had that morning, at a meeting of his friends, stated that he understood from Mr. Gladstone, the new Chancellor of the Exchequer, that he was quite shocked at the expenditure of the country and that he was determined to reduce it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer might reduce the expenditure of the country as much as he thought proper, but he trusted that there would be no reduction of the defences of' the country. He gave the late Government great credit for what they had done towards putting our defences in a proper state and condition; though he did not think they had gone far enough. If they had done what he thought necessary for the defence of the country he could not have conscientiously voted against them, and he hoped that the Government which had just acceded to office would go much further than they had done. He trusted that they would persevere and that there would be no reduction of our fleets and armies, but that on the contrary they would be augmented. He was happy to see it stated in the papers that day, that the late Government
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  had commissioned two more ships of the line, which gave them twenty-six sail of the line now in commission. When they saw the preparations for a great battle now making in Italy — when they considered the unquiet state of Germany, and that Russia was making very extensive naval preparations, they could not tell how soon a state of things might arise that would call for the mightiest exertions on the part of this country. France had a fleet nearly as large as ours, and Russia had one much larger. With regard to Russia he had read the following important statement in The Times of Saturday: —
  "The shipments of machinery to Russia since the opening of the navigation are stated to have been on a scale which will go far to account for the necessity that has existed for the transmission of gold from St. Petersburg to London, especially as similar orders have been executed in America and elsewhere, many of which are paid for by draughts on this country. Within the past month the Hercules steamer has landed from St. Petersburg five complete sets of engines for first-rate men-of-war, and many of our engineering firms have still large commissions to execute. According to the last dates the utmost exertions were being made in all the naval departments, in preparation, it was said, for the return of the Grand Duke Constantine. The Neva division of the Russian fleet is now asserted to comprise 80 first-class gunboats, constructed on the best recent models, while the Baltic fleet consists of 35 sail of the line, 14 of which at present at Cronstadt are screw line-of-battle ships of from 80 to 120 guns each. It is affirmed that during the last month a continental contract has been in execution in this country for 60,000 bags of ships' bread. This would suffice for 30 sail of the line for six months. Looking, also, at the purchases of horses, coal, and other material, the flow of money to England, which has been one of the first consequences of the war, is easily explained."
  This was a statement well worthy of the consideration of the House. Russia could send thirty-five sail of the line into the North Sea, and if she were to do so the confusion caused in this country would be such as we could form no conception of. He trusted, therefore, that such a fleet would be got in readiness as would enable us to meet France, Russia, or any other nation upon the sea.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,— "That tills House do now adjourn."
  MR. W. WILLIAMSthought that the gallant Admiral should have waited to hear the statements of the Government before urging upon them the expenditure of money. The hon. and gallant Admiral was always anxious to spend the public money, and he believed no party that would be in office would ever satisfy

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  him on that head. He thought both the late and present Governments were better judges of what was necessary for the defence of the country than the hon. and gallant Admiral who was the only naval officer in England who seemed to be always afraid of attack from foreign countries.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

PUBLIC IMPROVEMENTS.

  BILL ORDERED TO BE BROUGHT IN.
  MR. SLANEYcalled the attention of the House to the subject of public walks and places of exercise for the working classes near great towns. In whatever direction they went in the metropolis and other large towns they found the working classes compressed into narrow and close localities. This was in one sense a mark of our prosperity, but it was also a proof that we had forgotten our duty to those classes in not supplying them with spaces where they could have exercise and enjoy themselves after their work was done. He had moved for a Committee on this subject twenty-six years ago, and the fruit of that Committee's report was four new parks opened to the public in the metropolis. He had walked for miles over portions of this enormous city, and could not find a single spot of open ground on which the humble classes might exercise themselves. He did not ask for any Government grant, but only that facilities should be given to those who desired voluntarily to provide the funds necessary for setting apart public places of recreation. He thought also that care should be taken to preserve the footpaths on the roads in order to the safety of the public. This was a question that did not perhaps much interest the House, but it was one of deep interest to the people out of doors. In every large town the population was increasing to an enormous extent, and it was absolutely necessary for the public health that large open spaces, such as he had referred to, for air and exercise, should be provided. He would conclude by moving for leave to bring in a Bill of which the purpose was to facilitate the establishment of public walks and places of exercise for the working classes near great towns.
  MR. SOTHERON ESTCOURTcalled the attention of the House to what he deemed an irregularity on the part of the hon. Member in moving for leave to bring in a Bill when the notice put upon the
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  paper by him only vaguely indicated his intention to make a Motion on the subject, without stating the precise object of such Motion.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill to enable a majority of two-thirds of the ratepayers of any parish or district, duly assembled, to rate their district in aid of public improvements for general benefit within their district, ordered to be brought in by Mr. SLANEY and Mr. COWPER.

  On Motion for Supply,

  MINISTERIAL RE-ELECTIONS.
  MR. BRANDsaid that, in moving the postponement of the Order of the Day for Committee of Supply, he would avail himself of the opportunity to state the course which Her Majesty's Government proposed to take with reference to the further adjournment of the House. It would not be becoming in him to advert to the circumstances which had led to the recent change in the Administration, but he might be permitted to state that it was the anxious desire of Her Majesty's Government that no unnecessary delay should take place in the resumption of the public business. The House was aware that no new writ could be issued for the election of a Member until the expiration of fourteen days after the meeting of Parliament. That period expired with that day (Tuesday), and it would afterwards be his duty to move that certain new writs should be issued in consequence of the acceptance of office by those Members of Her Majesty's Government who had held seats in that House. The return to those new writs would occasion a delay in the business of the House of about a week, and it was consequently impossible that any of the responsible Ministers of the Crown could be in their places until about the middle of the ensuing week. He would therefore give notice that to-morrow he should move that the House on its rising do adjourn until Thursday the 30th of June; and he begged leave to move that the Order of the Day now read should be fixed for that day.
  Motion agreed to.
  Committee deferred till Thursday 30th June.
  House adjourned at half after Five o'clock.