Commons Sitting of 4 July 1859

MINUTES.
NEW WRITS ISSUED.—.For Ashton under Lyne, v. Right hon. Thomas Milner Gibson, President of the Board of Trade; for Wolverhampton, v. Right hon. Charles Pelham Villiers, Commissioner of Poor Laws.
NEW MEMBERS SWORN.—For Oxford University, Right hon. William Ewart Gladstone.
PUBLIC BILLS. — 1° Public Health; Clerk of the Council; Diplomatic Pensions; Law Ascertainment Facilities.
2° Law of Property and Trustees Relief Amendment; Criminal Justice Middlesex (Assistant Judge).

SALE OF SLAVES IN BRAZIL.

  QUESTION.
  MR. D. GRIFFITHsaid, he wished to ask the noble Lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the British Consul at Rio has exercised his authority to prevent a certain contract for the sale of slaves in Brazil, by the directors of a British Mining Company in that country, to one Santos, from being carried into effect, although such sale professed to be
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  under the sanction of the decision of a British Court of Law; and whether or not it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to support him in that course?
  LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid he thought that this question had arisen from a misapprehension of the real facts of the case. At the end of the year 1857, Her Majesty's Consul at Rio informed the Government that there was an intention of selling the slaves of the Imperial Brazilian Mining Association to a merchant of Brazil, named Santos, and asked whether such a transaction would be legal. The Government referred this question to the law officers of the Crown. It depended upon the construction of two statutes, one the 5th of George IV., which made the sale of slaves felony, and another an Act passed in the year 1843, permitting the sale of slaves then in the possession of persons claiming to be their owners. The point, however, arose whether children born since 1843, not having been slaves at that time, could legally be sold. The law officers of the Crown were of opinion that they could not, and that the selling them by British subjects would be a felony. They added that although if the persons remained in Brazil they might be free from the penalty of the English law, yet if they landed on British ground, or went on board a British vessel, they might be prosecuted for a felony. They intimated, moreover, that it was desirable that this opinion should be known to the parties concerned. It was accordingly transmitted to Her Majesty's Minister at Rio, who informed the Consul, who by his direction communicated to these persons that they would, in certain cases named, be liable to the punishment of felony. The consul did not pretend to prevent the sale, or to interfere with their proceedings. He only gave them warning of the penalty to which they would be subject. He (Lord J. Russell) conceived that his conduct had been perfectly right, and that no objection could be taken to the course which he pursued.

  THE INDIAN BUDGET.—QUESTION.
  MR. BRIGHTsaid he rose to ask the right hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for India whether it was his intention before the prorogation to make to the House any statement upon the subject of Indian finance; and, if so, when he would be able to fix the day on which he would make it?
  SIR CHARLES WOODreplied that he should have occasion to make such a state-

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  ment, but he was not then in a position to fix a day for it.
  MR. BRIGHTsaid, he would then give notice that he would repeat his question in the course of two or three evenings, with the view of having a day fixed at a period of the Session when there would remain in town a number of Members sufficient to discuss a question so important as that of Indian finance.
  SIR CHARLES WOODsaid, the hon. Gentleman seemed to think that he was anxious to postpone this statement. [Mr. BRIGHT: Not at all.] He must necessarily-come before the House in a short time; but until he obtained certain information with regard to payments in this country and India for railroads he could not make such a statement as would be satisfactory either to that House or to the Indian Government.

  SAVINGS' BANKS.—QUESTION.
  CAPTAIN DANIEL O'CONNELLsaid, he rose to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he intended to bring in a Bill this Session for the better regulation of savings' banks?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that it was possible that some Bill might be passed with regard to one or two points of detail connected with the management of savings' banks; but he did not think the Session would last long enough to afford a reasonable prospect for the full consideration of any general Bill upon the subject.

  THE BOARD OF TRADE.—QUESTION.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, he wished to ask the First Commissioner of Works whether any alterations are being made in the office of the Board of Trade; and, if so, by what authority, and whether it is intended to submit an estimate to Parliament for them?
  MR. FITZROYsaid, that a day or two after he was appointed to the office which he now held he received a requisition from the Vice-President of the Board of Trade stating that there was such a want of light in his room as to prevent his transacting business, and requesting that some alteration might be made in the window. He understood that it was the general custom to accede to such requisitions from heads of departments, and as the gentleman was going out of town it seemed a favourable opportunity for making the alteration. He,
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  therefore, forwarded this request to the Treasury, and, in the meantime, instructed the surveyor to commence the works. Since then he had received from the Treasury permission to include the cost in the Estimates.

  FINANCIAL STATEMENT.—QUESTION.
  SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, he wished to remind the Government that no financial statement had been made to the House for fifteen months, and to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Whether it is his intention to make any financial statement previous to the House going into Supply. He need not say that it was of the highest importance, and should be made as soon as possible, particularly as regarded the expenditure of the country.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: It is certainly my intention to adhere to the course usually followed on these occasions. On Friday next the representatives of the military and naval departments will be prepared to enable the House to proceed with these Estimates, and to make known to the House, as far as can be made known, the proposed expenditure for the year in connection with these departments. As soon as the House has disposed of these, the principal demands on the public purse, it will be my desire to fix the earliest possible day for the financial statement of the year, for I know it is very inconvenient to the public that it should be postponed longer than necessity requires. But it is not my intention to make any statement apart from the usual statement which combines the subject of the expenditure with the Ways and Means of the year.

ADVERTISING COLUMNS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. COWPERsaid, he wished to give notice of his intention to move for leave to bring in a Bill to limit the power vested in Metropolitan Vestry and District Boards, of permitting the erection of advertising or ornamental illuminated columns in the carriage way of the metropolis. He also wished to ask the First Commissioner of Public Works, whether his attention had been called to the practice of obstructing the streets by the erection of certain illuminated columns, of very hideous and sometimes ludicrous form, whereby great crowds were collected in those parts where they were most likely to be run over, and

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  great discredit was thrown on the metropolis in point of taste; and he also wanted to know whether it was the intention of the right hon. Gentleman to take any steps on the subject, legislative or otherwise, to remove or prevent this outrage on the good taste and common sense of the metropolis. If that was the intention of the right hon. Gentleman, he would not proceed with the notice which he had given.
  MR. FITZROYreplied, that his attention as that of the public, certainly had been attracted to the curious structure erected near Apsley-house, but he had no more control over such erections than any other hon. Member. He believed that the vestrymen of the parish in which he had the honour to reside were the real culprits. He understood that a French company had recently proposed to set up these columns as a new mode of advertising, and he was afraid that a great many applications had been granted by the authorities of metropolitan parishes for the erection of these structures in different parts. The only way to deal with the matter was to proceed in the way pointed out by the right hon. Gentleman, and he thought he could not do better than leave it entirely in his hands.

MANNING THE NAVY.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD CLARENCE PAGETsaid, the right hon. Baronet (Sir John Pakington) had asked him on Friday night whether it was the intention of the Government to bring in a Bill this Session to carry out the views and recommendations of the Government Commission on the Manning of the Navy. He had now to state, in answer to that question, that it was the intention of the Government to bring in a Bill on that subject. He was not prepared to state any of the details of the proposed measure at the present moment, but it would be brought in as soon as possible. With regard to the Navy Estimates, he might add that the noble Duke at the head of the Admiralty had informed him that the sum he proposed to ask from Parliament for the naval expenditure of the country would be the same as that which had been proposed to be taken by the right hon. Gentleman.
  SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he would inform the hon. Gentleman that he left several Bills already drawn, and having reference to the recommendations in ques-
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  tion, in the office of the Admiralty, which might perhaps be useful to the noble Duke.
  MR. LINDSAYsaid, he wished to inquire whether a general Bill, with reference to manning the navy, would be introduced before the House was asked for a grant of money.
  LORD CLARENCE PAGETsaid, that it was impossible for the present Board of Admiralty to go into details with respect to this important measure between this and next Friday, when he proposed to bring in the Navy Estimates, but as soon after that date as possible the Admiralty would be prepared to introduce their Bills on the subject to the House.
  MR. LINDSAYsaid, in that case he wished to give notice that upon the question of going into Committee on the Naval Estimates, he should propose that no grant of money should be made until the House had an opportunity of discussing a Bill having reference to the recommendations of the Royal Commissioners for the better manning the Navy.

  THE REFORM BILL.—QUESTION.
  MR. EDWIN JAMESsaid, he rose to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether it was the intention of Government to introduce any Bill to amend the representation of the people in Parliament during the present Session.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: I think the hon. Member was not in his place on a former occasion when I had to make a short statement to the House on the business of the Session, and I then took occasion to observe, and I now repeat that, considering the advanced period of the year and the probable duration of the Session, it was not the intention of the Government to propose any measure to amend the representation of the people this Session.

LAW OF PROPERTY AND TRUSTEES RELIEF AMENDMENT BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  MR. WALPOLE, in moving that this Bill be read a second time, said that it was a measure which had come down from the House of Lords, where it had received the fullest sanction of the law Lords, and it was of extreme importance that it should be speedily passed. The details of the Bill were of so technical a character that the House would hardly wish to got into

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  them on the second reading; he therefore proposed that the Bill should now be read a second time without discussion, and that the various clauses should be fully considered in Committee on that day week. The hon. Member for Exeter (Mr. Divett) had mentioned that he had some objections to the measure, but he (Mr. Walpole) was satisfied that if the Bill were read a second time, he could remove the objections of the hon. Member, or show that they were groundless.
  MR. DIVETTsaid that he was quite prepared to take the discussion of the points on which he objected in Committee.
  Bill read 2° and committed for Monday next.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE MIDDLESEX (ASSISTANT JUDGE) BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  Order read, for resuming adjourned Debate on Question [17th June], "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
  Question again proposed.
  Debate resumed.
  MR. LOCKE KINGsaid, that when the Bill came before the House two or three weeks ago, he moved the adjournment of the debate, because he felt that in the absence of a Government the second reading of such a measure ought not to have been urged with indecent haste. It seemed to him that this was an attempt to tax the whole of the country for the purpose of paying the Middlesex Assistant Judge, who was neither more nor less than a paid chairman of quarter sessions, a higher salary than he had at present. If any county chose to have a paid chairman of quarter sessions, the expense came out of the finances of the county and not out of the Consolidated Fund. He did not Bee why an exception should be made for Middlesex. He did not at all object to increasing the salary of the Middlesex Assistant Judge from £1,200 to £1,500 a year, but he objected to the burden which ought to be borne by the rich county of Middlesex, being thrown on the country at large. Let the county of Middlesex pay the increased salary and not the country. If they passed this Bill they would be forming a most dangerous precedent, for they might depend upon it they would have as a consequence all the County Court Judges and many others in England applying for an increase in their salaries. He would remind the House, that in 1853 a similar
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  attempt was made to increase the salary of the Middlesex Assistant Judge, and the Bill was only thrown out on the third reading at the instance of his hon. Colleague, and no attempt had since been made to introduce it until now. While, however, he did not object to an increase of the salary of the present Assistant Judge if it were made out of the county funds, he could not help remarking that during the whole tenure of the office by his lamented friend the late Mr. Pashley, who had worked harder and had, in consequence of his being so good a lawyer, more appeals to decide than any one who had ever held the office, no attempt to increase the salary was made. In conclusion, he begged to move that this Bill be read a second time that clay six months.
  Amendment proposed to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."
  Question proposed, That the word "now" stand part of the Question.
  MR. SOTHERON ESTCOURTsaid, that he was the individual who introduced this Bill, and he quite admitted that the present Government were in no way responsible for it. The House would, perhaps, permit him to remind them what were the circumstances under which the late Government thought it fair to sanction this increase in the salary of the Assistant Judge of the Middlesex sessions, from £1,200 to £1,500 a year. On the decease of the late Assistant Judge, he, as then holding the seals of the Home Office, received from the magistrates very urgent remonstrance, which were confirmed and strengthened by other gentlemen, against the policy of allowing so important an office as Assistant Judge to be held by a practising barrister. It was urged that it was treating that gentleman unhandsomely and often placing him in a somewhat degrading position. On one day he sat to determine a case, when the very day following he was in the position of an advocate, and liable to be called upon to advocate the cause in a higher court of the very person condemned by him; and although he (Mr. S. Estcourt) did not pretend to be conversant with law, that struck him as such a strange anomaly, that he could not help thinking, as a matter of common sense, that a gentleman who during many months in the year was engaged week after week in presiding in one of the courts of criminal jurisprudence in the metropolis, ought no

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  to devote himself to the profession of an advocate the rest of the time, but ought to be in such a position that he could not be called upon to appear as an advocate in a superior court. The hon. Gentleman on the other side of the House, however, was not quite correct in his statement of the grounds on which the attempt to raise the salary of the Assistant Judge in 1853 was met. The question had now assumed a very different form to that which it presented in 1853, when the question was simply raising the salary of the Judge without changing his position or putting any restriction whatever upon him. The Judge would still have been allowed to practise in superior courts, and if the case had been the same now, the objection taken to the Bill would have been a valid one, and the argument that the county court Judges might with reason apply for an in crease in their salaries would be just. What he, however, maintained was, that there was a good and sufficient quid pro quo given in the condition that the Judge should no longer practice as an advocate at the bar of a superior court. As he understood the gentleman holding the office at present was willing to give up his practice, which was estimated at a low figure at £1,000 a year—he was willing to give that up, and devote his whole time and energies to the office of a Judge, if the House of Commons granted £300 more; and he (Mr. Estcourt) really thought that by consenting to that proposition he was obtaining a very great benefit to the country at an extremely cheap rate. For that reason he had no kind of hesitation in bringing forward this Bill, and he hoped that the Government would support it, looking at the wide difference which the case presented to that brought in in 1853.
  MR. LOCKE KINGsaid, he must repeat that he did not object to the increase of the Assistant Judge's salary, but to the increase being paid out of the Consolidated Fund.
  MR. ALCOCKsaid, he should support the Amendment, as he considered the principle of the Bill to be altogether anomalous, and he hoped the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be aroused to the dangerous precedent which passing it would create. In all other places, such as Liverpool and Birmingham, in which they had stipendiary chairmen of quarter sessions, the money was paid by the county, and why should not this salary be paid by the county of Mid-
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  dlesex? Some time ago the Surrey county magistrates were met by a similar demand, but they had avoided it and got on very well. It was not the increase of the salary that he cavilled about, but it was the principle of the measure to which he objected.
  MR. MALINSsaid, he considered the arrangement which had been made by his right hon. Friend (Mr. Sotheron Estcourt) eminently beneficial to the country. The late Assistant-Judge, Mr. Pashley, was eminently fitted for the office, but its duties clashed with his practice at the bar, which was very considerable. The consequence was, that he was frequently very much inconvenienced, and he himself had told him that there must, in many cases, inevitably be a contest between interest and duty in the breast of a Judge who was also a practising barrister. Twelve hundred pounds a year was not sufficient to call upon a person in the situation of Assistant-Judge to give up practice; and however anxious a Judge might be to discharge his duty, it was perfectly vain to deny that if on any particular day on which his Court sat, an important cause in which he was retained as chief counsel was coming on in the Superior Courts, there would not be a contest between interest and duty which could not fail to be very injurious to the public service. The hon. Member (Mr. Locke King) however did not object to the amount of salary but to the fund out of which the salary was paid. But this argument went too far, because if an error were made in originally ordering the payment of this salary out of the Consolidated Fund, the hon. Member ought to move that the salary be taken off that Fund and paid from some other source. If, however, it were found that the duties could not be performed for £1,200, public justice and convenience alike required that such a salary should be paid as would insure the efficient and proper discharge of the duties of the office. With regard to Mr. Bodkin, every man in the profession would admit that, from his peculiar experience and high character, a fitter selection could not have been made. He believed that the learned gentleman was offered the appointment by the right hon. Gentleman (Sir George Grey). He had but a slight acquaintance with Mr. Bodkin, but he had, like every other lawyer, the most profound respect for him. Mr. Bodkin had given up his private practice to accept this appointment, and he had every reason to suppose that

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  an arrangement proposed by the Home Secretary would be adopted by the House. He was willing to consider, at the fitting time, whether it was proper that this salary should be paid out of the Consolidated Fund, but he trusted that the House would ratify what his right hon. Friend had done by passing this Bill.
  MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, that fourteen years ago, this officer was the Chairman of the Middlesex Quarter Sessions. The office was then contested for the honour of holding it. Mr. Serjeant Adams was the first who applied to the magistrates of Middlesex for a salary. They refused to grant it, and he then applied to the Secretary of State for the Home Department. For himself, he thought £1,200 a sufficient salary, though he did not wish to disturb the present arrangement. He certainly thought however, that the salary ought to be paid by the county. During Serjeant Adams' tenure of the office, Bills were brought into the House three times for the increase of the salary to £1,500 a year, and each time the Bill was thrown out, but he continued to hold the office for years after to the satisfaction of the public. The late Assistant-Judge, Mr. Pashley, never thought of applying for an increase of salary. He was glad to see the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his place, and he would take the opportunity of calling his attention to the fact that before the passing of the Reform Bill the Civil Service Estimates amounted only to £4,200,000 a year, and that now they amounted to £9,100,000. The Question never came before the magistrates of Middlesex.
  MR. SOTHERON ESTCOURTobserved, that the Middlesex magistrates expressed to him their desire that the Assistant-Judge should not retain his private practice.
  MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, it never appeared on the business paper. He dared any some of the political friends of the Assistant-Judge wished to increase the salary, but it was better for that gentleman that he should be able to earn £1,000 a year by his practice, than to have his salary increased by £300 a year, and to be idle half his time. The Judges of the County Courts had a great deal more to do, and they were not allowed to practise.
  MR. BYNGsaid, he could corroborate the statements made by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Sotheron Estcourt). He had received a communication from the chairman of the Middlesex magistrates,
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  showing that the administration of justice in the Metropolitan county was much less expensive than in other counties. For example, it appeared that, in 1856, the number of prisoners tried at various borough sessions was 3,774, at an average cost of £8 10 s. each case, while the number tried at the Middlesex Sessions was 2,065, at an average cost of £2 3s. 10 d. each case, and at various other County Quarter Sessions the cost of each case, was £10 1s. 4d. Unless the Assistant-Judge were prevented from taking private practice, it might happen that he would be found engaged as an advocate in appeals made from his own decision. These appeals were necessarily large, varying from £60 to £80 and £100 a year. He thought that an addition of £300 a year to the salary of the Judge, in lieu of private practice, was not an excessive compensation, and he believed that the proposed arrangement would be advantageous to the impartial administration of justice.
  MR. PACKEsaid, that as it had been stated that this salary ought not to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund, but that the Middlesex Assistant-Judge should be paid in the same way as the chairman of other Quarter Sessions, he wished to observe that the county rates were in no way chargeable for the payment of any chairman of Quarter Sessions, and he thought it desirable that the statement he had alluded to should not go forth uncontradicted.
  MR. EDWIN JAMESsaid, he thought that the House would cordially agree to the principle of the Bill; that the gentleman filling the office of the Assistant Judge of Middlesex Sessions should not practise as an advocate. Any contrary course would be prejudicial to the public interests; for a Judge one day associated on the bench with the magistrates of the county might on the next day have to apply to them for a license for a victualler; or a case might be put to him for his opinion as counsel, and afterwards the same case might be argued before him as Judge, and he might possibly be obliged to pronounce an opinion as Judge contrary to the opinion he had given as counsel. With respect to the amount of salary he thought no lawyer in that House would express an opinion that any Judge was over paid, but with regard to payment out of the Consolidated Fund, he believed it originated in this way—the Middlesex magistrates applied to have their Judge paid out of the Consolidated Fund,

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  and the Home Office said that in that case it must have the appointment. That was agreed to, and so the matter had gone on ever since. He did not think the payment of £1,500 to a gentleman of eminence too much, and he should therefore vote for that sum. But the House should know that that sum was not the whole amount required for the administration of criminal justice at Middlesex Sessions. The Assistant Judge had a right to appoint a deputy, with the sanction of the Home Department, at five guineas a day. That deputy was almost permanently appointed. He did not object to that; because the sitting of two Courts diminished the expense of prosecutors and witnesses; but the House must not suppose that this sum was the whole expense. There ought to be some provision in the Bill in respect to this point, for if the principle were good that the Assistant Judge should not practise, it surely followed that the deputy, too, should not practise.
  SIR GEORGE LEWISobserved that when the present Bill was brought in a previous Resolution was not moved, as was usually the case when charges were made on the Consolidated Fund. Consequently, the material clause was only printed in italics, and was not in fact, at present, part of the Bill. Therefore, in voting for the second reading, no Member gave a vote for any charge on the Consolidated Fund; and the only point the vote would decide would be the proviso that the As assistant Judge during his continuance in office should not practise as a barrister. The question as to placing the increase of salary on the Consolidated Fund could only be raised after the second reading, in the event of a Resolution being proposed as a necessary preliminary to the introduction of such a clause as was now printed in italics. He would now say a few words with respect to the merits of the Bill. In 1844 a Bill was brought in to give a salary to the Assistant Judge of Middlesex Sessions of £1,200 out of the Consolidated Fund. That Bill was sanctioned by Parliament and the sum had been annually paid since that time. Nothing, however, was then said as to the Assistant Judge not being permitted to practise; and the Assistant Judge was allowed to hold his office concurrently with any private practice he might receive. Mr. Serjeant Adams was the first Assistant Judge. That learned gentleman did not, in fact, practise, and therefore the question of the inconvenience
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  of allowing the Judge to practise, did not arise during his tenure of office. Mr. Pashley, however, had a considerable amount of private practice when acting as Judge, and considerable inconvenience was felt, he was informed, from the combination of the two functions; for it was open to any solicitor to lay before the Assistant Judge a case of appeal without a name, and thereby to obtain the opinion of the Assistant Judge, by which he might be guided in bringing an appeal or not. Any one could see that such a practice might lead to considerable abuse without any blame attaching to the Judge. Under these circumstances, when Mr. Pashley died, a deputation from the magistrates of Middlesex went to the right hon. Member for Wiltshire (Mr. Southeron Estcourt) and represented to him the expediency of putting an end to such a state of things. The arrangement agreed to was that the right hon. Gentleman should propose an increase of salary to the extent of £300, to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund. Mr. Bodkin, who he believed was admitted on all hands to be an eminent barrister, fully competent to discharge the duties of the office, accepted the office on the understanding of receiving £1,500 a year and giving up his private practice. That was the existing state of things. There was a distinct contract with Mr. Bodkin, which he felt to be binding on the existing Government. He had had an interview with Mr. Bodkin, and had ascertained the views he entertained with respect to the office and its duties, and the proposal he had to make to the House was that the salary of £1,200, payable out of the Consolidated Fund, should still continue. He expressed no opinion whether it was right that that sum should be charged on the Consolidated Fund. The charge was made in 1844, and continued ever since, and he was not now called on to express an opinion with respect to it. With respect to the future, he proposed that power should be given to the magistrates, if they thought it desirable that their Assistant Judge should be inhibited from private practice, to charge the county rates with an addition to his salary of not less than £300 a year. That was the arrangement to which Mr. Bodkin consented. Therefore, if his hon. Friend (Mr. L. King) was satisfied with this explanation, he would suggest that the Amendment should be withdrawn and the Bill allowed to be read a second time He would then undertake to propose in

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  Committee clauses in conformity with the understanding come to.
  MR. CRAUFURDsaid, that the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman removed the objection with regard to the financial portion of the Bill; but there was another point worth remarking on, namely, the relative positions of the Assistant Judge under the Bill and of the County Court Judges. The latter had to give up all private practice, and could not hold a seat in that House and he thought if £1,200 was deemed sufficient for them, that sum might also be considered quite enough for the Assistant Judge of the Middlesex Sessions. Again, the principle of preventing a Judge from pursuing his private practice, if good for one case, was, in his opinion, good for all, and a Bill should be brought in to prevent Recorders from practising as Banisters. He admitted that the recent appointment to the Assistant Judgeship of Middlesex Sessions was one of the best appointments, but it was matter of question whether that functionary was not amply paid with £1,200, considering that police magistrates were only paid 1,000 a year.
  MR. HENLEYsaid, he was glad to hear that the Home Secretary did not intend to extend the principle involved in this Bill beyond the County of Middlesex, or to allow any further pull out of the Imperial Exchequer. Indeed he could not understand on what ground the Assistant Judge for Middlesex should be paid out of the public funds, any more than the stipendiary magistrates of Manchester, Liverpool, or other towns, He assented to the second reading of the Bill on the understanding that by so doing he merely expressed his approval of the principle which, he believed was laid down by this Bill, that the Assistant Judge should not engage in private practice. After what had been stated by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Marylebone, (Mr. E. James), however, he thought that the House should receive some further explanation in Committee. It was stated that the Assistant Judge appointed a deputy Judge at five guineas a day, and that this office was a great advantage. Well if that be so, they ought to receive some explanation why the assistant Judge should receive at the rate often guineas a day for the 120 days he sat when the deputy Judge only received five guineas a day. These were matters, however, which could be better considered in Committee.
  MR. PALKsaid, he thought this Bill might establish a precedent which it would not be desirable to adopt; for if the magistrates of Middlesex were empowered to increase the salary now paid to the Assistant Judge of the sessions out of the county rate, a similar power might be demanded by the magistrates of other counties. At present he was not aware of any county in which the chairman of quarter sessions was paid by a county rate. The measure was, in his opinion, calculated to increase the discontent of the ratepayers, who already objected to the magistrates having the power of burdening the county rates with the salaries of certain officials.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read 2°, and committed for Friday.

DIPLOMATIC PENSIONS.

  LEAVE. FIRST READING.
  MR. MONCKTON MILNES, in moving for leave to bring in a Bill to remove doubts as to the qualification of persons holding diplomatic pensions to sit in Parliament, said its object was merely to enable gentlemen who possessed extensive diplomatic experience to occupy seats in the House, and afford the advantage of their knowledge and sagacity in the discussion of foreign affairs. He believed that the objections which prevented gentlemen in the receipt of diplomatic pensions from sitting in that House were merely of a technical nature, and that their position differed in no respect from that of gentlemen in receipt of official pensions; but he would reserve a full explanation of the principles and details of the Bill, the introduction of which he found would not be opposed, until the second reading.
  Leave given.
  Bill to remove doubts as to the Qualification of persons holding Diplomatic Pensions to sit in Parliament, ordered to be brought in by Mr. MONCK-TON MILNES and Mr. KINNAIRD.
  Presented and read 1°, to be read 2° on Monday next.

RIVER THAMES.

  AEDRESS AGREED TO.
  SIR MORTON PETOsaid, he rose to move for the following Address:—For returns from the Metropolitan Board of Works, and from all district boards established under the Metropolis Local Management Act, and from the City (of London)

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  Commissioners of Sewers, of any and all operations performed by them between the 25th March last and the 18th June, with the object of preventing the occurrence of noisome effluvia from the River Thames, and particularly of the quantities of lime or other deodorizing agents day by day used for that purpose; specifying in tabular form when, where, and to what amount, such agents, or any of them, were respectively employed, and the sums of money expended on or about the use thereof. Tabular returns from the Metropolitan Board of Works and the Board of Conservancy of the River Thames respectively, of the daily or other ascertained quantities of fresh water which have passed into the tideway of the River Thames from the weir at Teddington Lock, and from other principal streams which discharge into the said tideway between Teddington Lock and Chelsea Bridge, and particularly of the daily quantities in the years 1858 and 1859. From all the Metropolitan waterworks companies of the daily quantities of water delivered by them respectively in the years 1858 and 1859. From the Astronomer Royal of the daily quantities of rain fallen at Greenwich, and at any other places within the drainage area of the Thames of which he possesses particulars, and of the daily mean temperature of the atmosphere at Greenwich, and of the water of the river Thames. From the Medical and other officers of Her Majesty's hospital ship Dreadnought, moored in the Thames, of any and all observations and experiments made by them, or under their direction, with reference to the condition of the river in the years 1858 and 1859. And returns from Her Majesty's Office of Works, and from the Metropolitan Board of Works, of any communications, resolutions, and measures of the years 1858 and 1859, in reference to the suggested improvement of the River Thames by embanking the same, and by forming low-level sewers within the embanked spaces.
  MR. FITZROYsaid, he must suggest that some alteration be made in the last paragraph with regard to the Office of Works. They had no returns to give.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, he wished to draw the hon. Member's attention to the paragraph referring to the Astronomer Royal, which omitted to specify any time.
  SIR MORTON PETOsaid, he wanted the return for the last three years.
  The Address, as amended, was then agreed to.

RIVER THAMES' PURIFICATION.

  METROPOLIS. LEAVE REFUSED.
  SIR MORTON PETOsaid, he would then, pursuant to notice, ask leave to introduce a Bill to provide for the prevention of the noisome effluvia from the River Thames within the metropolis. He believed there was no opposition to his Motion, and he would therefore reserve his statement as to the details of his measure until the second reading. He wished, however, to observe that in bringing in his Bill he did not mean to reflect upon the Metropolitan Commissioners, but he felt that the House had a right to demand periodical returns of what was doing by them from time to time to remedy the effluvia from the river, which was not only noisome in itself but destructive to the health of the metropolis. He was sure that from the simple and practical nature of his Bill no body of men like the Metropolitan Commissioners, in the performance of duties for which the public should feel grateful, could for a moment object to its introduction.
  MR. SOTHERON ESTCOURTsaid, he did not rise for the purpose of objecting to the Bill, but to submit as this was a matter of general interest, that it would be very satisfactory to the House if the hon. Member would favour them with at least a sketch of what he proposed to accomplish by the measure. A very few words would satisfy his own curiosity; but for the sake of the House, he thought that an outline of its provisions ought to be given.
  MR. SPEAKERsaid, that the hon. Member had already spoken on the Bill, but the House could of course give him permission to make any additional observations.
  SIR MORTON PETOsaid, he was quite ready to state that the Bill required the Metropolitan Board of works, and the various district boards, to make a monthly return of all they had done or were doing in regard to their sewage operations, and in placing the River Thames as much as possible in a proper condition. It might be said that those returns could be made without any compulsory enactment; but he felt that the matter was so important, and that the sanitary condition of the metropolis was so largely affected by the state of the river, particularly during the period

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  of the carrying out the larger works, that they would not he acting properly towards their constituents if they did not insist upon the obligation of the Commissioners to make their returns monthly. He did not mean to insist upon the Commissioners adopting any particular mode in their course of action; but it rendered the continuous deodorization of the contents of the sewers imperative. His Bill would not at all fetter the Metropolitan Commissioners in the measures which they might adopt— the responsibility would of course be left with them; but he wanted it to be shown that they were doing, as there was reason to believe, everything in their power to remedy the evil which was so greatly complained of. He had introduced a clause into the Bill giving them increased powers of taxation in case those which they already possessed were not sufficient with a view of enabling them to carry out any works that they might decide upon; and, of course, if their powers were sufficient, this clause would be inoperative. In the event of its proving that the state of the Thames did not require those measures to be carried out, he had also provided that, on communication with the Home Secretary, the powers with which they had been invested should be dispensed with. These were the main features of the Bill; and he repeated that in introducing it he had no desire to interfere with the Metropolitan Commissioners, or in any way to impute to them a dereliction of duty.
  LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, after hearing the statement of the hon. Gentleman who had introduced the measure, it had occurred to him that the title which he had applied to it was rather a misnomer. It did not appear to be, as it professedly was, "a Bill to provide for the prevention of noisome effluvia from the river Thames," hut a Bill to ask the Metropolitan Board for returns which nobody would ever look at. He would not offer any opposition to the introduction of the Bill, but he wished to enter a caveat against the supposition that he acquiesced in the system of legislation which the hon. Gentleman appeared to contemplate.
  SIR JOHN SHELLEYsaid, the returns which his hon. Friend was anxious to obtain from the Metropolitan Board would doubtless be of a very expensive character, and he trusted that if the House agreed to the Bill they would also be induced to pay for these returns; for, as they were aware all the cost of their preparation,
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  as well as of everything relating to the purifying of the Thames, would otherwise be thrown on the inhabitants of the metropolis. Then, as regarded the power of rating, he believed his hon. Friend would find in the Metropolitan Local Management Act that ample power was given to the Commissioners. Any legislation on that subject, therefore, was quite unnecessary. He must protest, however, against the last observation which the hon. Baronet had made, to the effect that if the Metropolitan Board were doing anything which Parliament did not think right, or if they had done too much, that the Home Secretary was to have the power of stopping their proceedings. The object of the Metropolitan Local Management Act was to carry out the principle of local self-government, and they were bound to give, the Metropolitan Board time to see whether that principle had been fairly carried out by them. He must, therefore, protest against the Government having anything to do with measures which were paid for by the inhabitants of the metropolis.
  MR. TITEsaid, he wished his hon. Friend in his Bill had been fortunate enough to suggest some remedy for the gigantic evil against which the Board of Works had to contend. He would not discuss the provisions of the Bill, because, by a measure which the House had been good enough to pass last year, the Board had received the fullest powers of raising money, and therefore that portion of the Bill which referred to this subject was quite unnecessary. But the subject to which he desired to call the attention of the House was the steps that had to be resorted to pending the interval that must elapse before the improved sewerage system would come into operation. Last year no less than £5,000 had been spent in remedial measures, and this year they had spared no efforts to diminish the mischief arising from the state of the Thames, but which could only be cured by the great system of intercepting sewers which they were endeavouring to carry out. With regard to the contracts and the purchase of land for those sewers, he believed so much progress had been made that he might promise the House that a great deal of the evil would be remedied in the course of three years instead of five. One large sewer contract made in February of the present year was one-fifth completed. That was the high level sewer on the City side; and on the Surrey side of

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  the river another very large sewer was just about being contracted for. The first sewer would no doubt be finished by next June; it was in the quarter known as the Hackney Brook district, which was the source of enormous offence, and which would by this means be altogether removed. In his opinion the entire project was being carried out as successfully as it could possibly be by a set of business men. With regard, however, to the evil in its present shape, it was impossible successfully to encounter it. Some idea of its magnitude might he formed from the fact that apart from flood water 80,000,000 gallons of sewage water were poured into the Thames every day, containing 600 tons of mud or 200 tons of solid material. In hot weather this water was not only in a state of putrefaction itself, but was the source of putrefaction in the body into which it was poured. The Metropolitan Board had appointed two of the most eminent chemists in London Dr. Hoffman and Mr. Frankland to inform them of the best mode of deodorizing the sewage with regard to future operations. To meet the present evil they had appointed one of the most distinguished men in London, Dr. Miller, the chemist to the University of London, to report daily on the state of the river and the large sewers which emptied themselves into it. The Board had at the present moment thirty stations at which lime might be poured into the largest sewers; and they were doing all they could to deodorize their contents before they reached the river. In the present state of our knowledge he believed that deodorization by lime was all that could he attempted; but Dr. Miller was engaged in a series of experiments for the purpose of discovering whether other agents, more powerful though more expensive, might not be used for temporary purposes. However enormous the inconvenience might be, he was bound to state that no effectual remedy could be applied until the sewage system was completed; but he was endeavouring to show—though not in the least seeking to be the apologist of the Metropolitan Board — that they were doing all in their power to meet the difficulty by remedial measures. The House would recollect that the inconvenience did not manifest itself prominently before a much later period last year; but in May of this year the Board passed a resolution empowering Dr. Miller to make the experiments he had alluded to; and they had, in addition, proceeded vigorously with the operations
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  which he had described. He was aware that an opinion to the contrary was prevalent, hut he maintained that the aggregate amount of inconvenience must have been sensibly diminished by the measures which they had adopted. He ventured to promise the House that no agent which could be suggested—and in Dr. Miller's report last week agents had been suggested—for deodorizing the sewers would fail to be employed by the Board, whatever might be the cost to the ratepayers, because though, as was stated by the hon. Baronet, the expense must fall upon them, there was no doubt that until the main sewers were completed the state of the atmosphere might get worse. He hoped the House would feel satisfied that the Board were doing all in their power; and with regard to the Bill, he would only say that any legislation at present must delay, embarrass, and, to a certain extent, confuse their operations by leading to the impression that they were not doing all that they possibly could. With regard to the monthly returns, he could simply state that, if his hon. Friend required it, the Home Secretary should have a Return every fortnight, detailing the work done now or at any future time. The Metropolitan Board were but too anxious that their fellow-citizens should know that at a moment of extreme difficulty they were doing all that they could to abate this enormous evil.
  MR. ANGERSTEINsaid, he wished to ask a question in reference to a report which was current to the effect that this high level sewer was to discharge its contents into Deptford Creek. He was quite sure the House would not take a narrow view of the question of the health of the metropolis, and that they would be unwilling to expose a large portion of a metropolitan district to so serious an evil as that of discharging so large a quantity of sewage matter without deodorizing it, as he understood would of necessity be the ease with the high level sewer. The question which he would venture to put to the hon. Gentleman was whether it was the intention of the Board to carry out the high level sewer at once, or whether they would consider the outfall first, and begin in the way that would be most complete, and which would conduce most to the general health of the metropolis.
  MR. M'CANNsaid, there had been a great many statements as to the good which was to result from the use of lime

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  in deodorizing the sewers. But on Saturday night the smell that proceeded from the place where lime was put down at Charing Cross for the purpose of deodorizing the sewers was most objectionable, and was worse, in fact, than anything he had before experienced in London. It continued during the whole night, and he could assure the House that it was exceedingly offensive in every room in Morley'a Hotel. He did everything he could to ascertain the reason, and somebody told him that the sewer into which the lime was put must have been left open.
  MR. RIDLEYsaid, that the best return which could be made to the House as to the state of the river was the stench which entered the Committee rooms. That morning, he, as well as his colleagues, were greatly inconvenienced by the noxious effluvia that came from the river on the rising of the tide. It was so disgusting that they were obliged to keep the windows closely shut, and some Gentlemen were compelled to leave the room in consequence. If it continued it must endanger the health of hon. Members as to his knowledge had been the case last year.
  MR. CONINGHAMsaid, he was of opinion that the expensive experiments upon deodorizing the river were almost worthless. No permanent benefit would, in his opinion, result from them; neither did he approve of the system of drainage, which was, in his opinion, founded upon a wrong principle.
  MR. JOHN LOCKEsaid, he was the only Member who last year objected to the measure proposed in a great hurry by Her Majesty's then Advisers for the purpose of handing over all responsibility connected with the river to the Board of Works, and he now asked what had since been done by the Metropolitan Board of Works. The Board diverted every stream of water that was not particularly offensive from the Thames, and carried it off to some place far away below London Bridge. By this means they reduced the stream of water, and the filth carried into the Thames by the sewers was left to stagnate much worse than before. He had not yet been able to discover the utility of this Metropolitan Board of Works.
  MR. DARBY GRIFFITHsaid, he had made inquiries as to the smell complained of by the hon. Member for Drogheda (Mr. M'Cann); and he found from the men employed in superintending the lime operations that it answered very well so long as
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  it was kept at work; but on Saturday they left off pouring in the lime water. It appeared to him that no plan of main drainage would answer unless the river was also embanked, and the area of the water greatly compressed. It was found that the smell was worst when the tide began to disturb the mud banks; a circumstance which showed that the removal of those banks was even more required than new drains. At any rate the two processes ought to go on together, but it was not competent for the Board under their present powers to embank the Thames.
  ALDERMAN CUBITTsaid, the Board of Works had been proceeding with all possible despatch ever since they had received their new powers; but it must be remembered that those powers were not conferred upon them till late last Session, and that time was needed to prepare their plans. All that was now required was a little patience; for it was impossible that great works like these could he carried out in a few months. He hoped, however, that in three or four years the scheme would be completed, and that the noxious effluvia of which they had now to complain would be removed. He begged to state with reference to the high level sewer that it was never intended that it should empty itself into Deptford Creek. The Board had merely taken Deptford Creek as a point to which it should be constructed until proper machinery could be constructed to convey the sewage lower. As to the smell at Charing Cross on Sunday, that had arisen from the sewer having been accidentally left uncovered.
  Question put, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide for the prevention of noisome effluvia from the River Thames within the Metropolis," Motion negatived.

PICTURE GALLERIES.

  ADDRESS MOVED FOR.
  MR. COWPERsaid, he rose to move for an Address for Copies of all letters and memorials addressed to the Committee of Council on Education or the Trustees of the National Gallery with reference to the admission of the public in the evening to the Turner and Vernon Galleries of Pictures, and of the answers thereto. Three collections of modern pictures had lately been given to the nation, and policy as well as gratitude required that they should be made accessible to all classes. The

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  Sheepshanks' collection which had been entrusted to the Department of Science and Art, was placed in a room well adapted for exhibition by night as well as by day; but the Turner and Vernon collections were placed by the Trustees of the National Gallery in rooms where no provision was made for exhibiting them by artificial light. It was especially incumbent on that House, when a generous boon had been conferred on the public, to see that the wishes of the donors were faithfully carried out and that the public were insured the enjoyment of it to the fullest possible extent; and he contended that a picture gallery, to be really enjoyed by the public, must be accessible in the evenings. Largo numbers of people were in the habit of visiting the Sheepshanks' collection in the evening,— probably as many as 200,000 in the course of a year. These persons, and especially artisans and workmen, would be prevented from seeing pictures which were visible only during working hours. Busy people worked in the daytime, and sought their recreation in the evening. Persons visiting the metropolis on business had no other time than the evening for visiting these galleries. One reason assigned on the part of the Trustees of the National Gallery, for not opening the Vernon and Turner Galleries in the evenings was, they must follow the same rule as the National Gallery. But the desired similarity might be secured by opening all, as well as by closing all. He did not believe, in the present state of science, the slightest risk could arise from lighting the National Gallery with gas from the ceiling. The House had only to lift their eyes to the ceiling above them and see how easy it was to light a lofty and spacious apartment without any of the products of combustion entering into the room. Such an arrangement, applied to the National Gallery and to the Turner and Vernon Galleries, would, no doubt, involve some additional expense, but he was sure the House would find no difficulty in devoting a reasonable sum of money to secure to the public the benefit of a full access to them. The advantage of thus diffusing a taste for beauty of form and colour, and of providing gratuitously a rational and elevating amusement would be quite worth the cost of the gas. The Trustees of the National Gallery were persons eminent for love of art and liberality of feeling, and he could not believe they would advisedly exclude the working classes from the enjoyment of these pic-
  610
  tures. They had probably not fully considered the reasons for departing from the old customs; and if these papers were laid upon the table the attention of the Trustees would be specially drawn to the injudicious manner in which the trust confided to them was being discharged.
  Motion agreed to.

CLERK OF THE COUNCIL.

  LEAVE. FIRST READING.
  MR. LOWEsaid, he also had to move for leave to bring in a Bill to provide for the authentication of certain Orders of the Privy Council in the absence of the Clerk of the Council in Ordinary. It was not the intention of the Government to fill up the vacancy in the clerkship of the Privy Council occasioned by the resignation of Mr. Greville; but it was necessary to take some step to prevent the stoppage of public business in case the remaining clerk should become incapacitated. The Bill would enable Her Majesty to appoint, during Her pleasure, some person to perform the duties of the Clerk in Ordinary.
  Leave given.
  Bill to provide for the authentication of certain Orders of the Privy Council in the absence of the Clerk of the Council in Ordinary, ordered to be brought in by Mr. LOWE and Sir GEORGE LEWIS.
  Presented and read 1°, to be read 2° on Thursday.

MILITARY ORGANIZATION.

  COMMITTEE MOVED FOR.
  MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, he rose to move for a Select Committee—
  To inquire into the effects of the alterations in military organization regarding the War Office and Board of Ordnance which were made in the year 1855; and also to inquire whether any changes arc required to secure the utmost efficiency and economy in the administration of military affairs.
  COLONEL DUNNEsaid, that he had given notice of a somewhat similar Motion, but, as the subject was now in better hands, he should withdraw it. The object of his Motion was merely to inquire into the civil organization of the War Department, which was in such bad order and so unworkable that it would be impossible to go to war until it was altered. He did not wish to interfere with the prerogatives of the Crown or the administration at the Horse Guards, but merely to secure the efficiency of the civil department of the War Office.
  GENERAL PEELsaid, that he could not agree to the description of the state of the War Department given by his hon. and gallant Friend. It would be better if his hon. and gallant Friend had waited for the Report of the Committee before he made such statements. If the country were obliged to go to war, he believed the War Office would be found to be in the best possible condition for performing their duties to the public satisfaction.
  MR. HORSMANsaid, he wished to suggest that at this late period of the Session it was not likely the Committee could terminate their inquiry in any satisfactory manner. Was it worth while, then, to appoint the Committee during the present Session?
  CAPTAIN JERVISsaid, he believed that the Secretary for War might make any ameliorations and improvements without waiting for the Report of the Committee.
  MR. MONSELLobserved, that he perfectly agreed with the right hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Horsman) that it would be well to postpone this Committee until next Session. The subject was very large and of the greatest importance, and a Committee appointed on the 8th or 10th of July could not go fully or sufficiently into it. It would he impossible for them to do more than commence their inquiry, and all they would be able to elicit would be the existing state of the Department. Seeing that there would not be time to hear the well-considered views of persons on both sides who were competent to give an opinion, he recommended that the Committee should begin to sit at the commencement of next Session.
  MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, he must acknowledge that the arguments of his hon. and right hon. Friend in favour of a postponement had had a contrary effect upon his mind. It was because the subject was very large and of great importance that he wished the Committee to begin immediately, that they might the sooner come to a conclusion. He did not hope or expect that the Committee would finish their labours this Session, nor did he propose that they should come to a conclusion upon insufficient evidence. But he was very anxious to know what defects existed in our military administration, in order that he might know what remedy ought to be applied. It was very late in the Session, no doubt, to appoint such a Committee, but they might have at least eight sittings, in which they might examine many im-
  612
  portant witnesses on each side, and enable hon. Members to come to a mature opinion during the recess. By appointing the Committee at once they might come to a decision, and make a report early enough next Session to enable the Government to act upon their recommendations.
  COLONEL LINDSAYsaid, he did not think that the military element was fairly represented in the Committee of last Session. It was not fair that such a Committee should be almost entirely composed of civilians. He agreed, however, that it was desirable they should commence the investigation at once.
  MR. DISRAELIsaid, he trusted the House would consider the question before they agreed to the proposition of the Government. His own impression was, that we should attain little advantage by appointing the Committee at once. Look at the language of the notice. "Select Committee to inquire into the effects of the alterations in military organization regarding the War Office and Board of Ordnance which were made in the year 1855." Now, the right hon. Gentleman could hardly have had an opportunity of making himself master of the changes which had occurred in the office over which he presided in consequence of those alterations. But, since 1855, very considerable alterations had been introduced by his right hon. and gallant Friend near him (General Peel), and many changes had been ordered which had not yet come into operation. He thought, then, that greater progress would be made if the Committee were postponed till the next Session. He should not, however, press that opinion of his own against any strong opinion that might be entertained by the Government; but he did hope that the Government would well consider, or reconsider, the proposition before the House. With regard to this being a large subject, that therefore no time should be lost, and that there was probably an opportunity of having some eight sittings on the subject during the present Session, this might not improbably lead to the not uncommon, but the inconvenient consequence, of no inconsiderable body of evidence, all of one complexion, being circulated amongst hon. Members before the inquiry was completed. Now, if the Committee were to be appointed, and there were to be only eight sittings, he thought they should examine into the opinions of at least what might be called the two schools on the subject. But considering the large

  613
  number of alterations which had been adopted since the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the War Department gained his experience in office, the important alterations introduced by his right hon. and gallant Friend (General Peel), together with other changes which, as he had said before, had been ordered, but had not yet come into operation, he thought it would have been as well if those changes had been allowed to be completed before the Committee were called upon to consider them. Again he would repeat that he would not press his own views against any strong notions which might be entertained by the Government on the subject; still his own opinion was a strong one, and if the Committee wore postponed till the next Session he thought the House would arrive at a more satisfactory result.
  VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, he thought the weight of argument was in favour of the immediate appointment of the Committee. He had the honour of serving on this Committee before the dissolution, and in their sittings they took a great deal of evidence, which it would be exceedingly important for the House to know. There could during the present Session be, at all events, eight sittings and probably more; and in those sittings they might place on record evidence on both sides, applying to changes which had been made; and with regard to any alterations which the right honourable Gentleman who had recently filled the office of Secretary of State for War might have ordered, and which might be still in progress, the Committee might be re-appointed next Session, and then the inquiry might be resumed and completed. But he hoped that the House would not lose what remained of the Session with put commencing the inquiry. To do so might be regarded as shelving the investigation, and he therefore hoped that the Committee would not be postponed till the next Session.
  Select Committee appointed.

CONTRACTS (PUBLIC DEPARTMENTS).

  COMMITTEE MOVED FOR.
  COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he rose to move for a Select Committee to inquire into the principle adopted for making contracts for the Public Departments, and the effect which the present system had on the expenditure of public money. The Committee had already sat several Sessions,
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  and it was desirable that its inquiry should be completed. Already a great mass of evidence had been collected, and he hoped that during the present Session the Committee might conclude its labours.
  MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, he wished to ask the hon. and gallant Member whether he would confine the inquiry to any particular class of contracts. Its object was very extensive; it had sat several years; some of the original Members had disappeared from the House, either by the will of the electors, or by removal to another world; and there was no prospect of the Committee reporting.
  COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he did not propose to extend the inquiry beyond naval und military contracts. As for the Committee reporting, he did not believe they would ever be able to do that; for they could not report until the accounts at Weedon were made up, and he did not believe that any man living could make up those accounts.
  Motion agreed to.
  House adjourned at Seven o'clock.